posted
Most people have probably noticed now that American "whites" and "blacks" have been arguing and debating for some while now on the internet about the looks ("race") of the ancient egyptian. The American "black" camp usually argues that the ancient egyptians were "black", "negro" or whatever term is of choice due mostly to the skin colour of the reliefs and geographic location of Egypt and that arabs and southern european migration have diluted the egyptian "negrodeisity". And the American "white" camp claims to prove that they were nordic like by pointing out the straight nose or blue eyes (Ramses II red hair is very popular) and also some blond hair they might have detected on some wall relief, and that this "nordic desert empire" collapsed due to the entrance of "black" and arab blood.
I personally think both are wrong the Ancient Egyptians were and are still the same as upper egyptians you can find the ancient egyptian appearance still alive in most of rural egypt, and they are neither "black" or "white". the arabs, turks and other people who entered egypt from the levant were mostly confined to the delta region and settled in areas such as alexandria and cairo.
This Egyptian kid below has a striking resemblance to the king tut relief, he looks neither arab from levant or what is conventially considered "black" or "white".
Pictures of pure Levantines (arabs)
Egyptians are quite distinct from these people, which they also showed on the wall paintings.
As you can see Egyptians look nothing like "arabs" or "asiatics", they have quite a unique and distinct phenotype that is indigenous.
Thats why i say it's not necessery to talk about invading arabs, europeans or blacks so to reconstruct how they really looked like, it's righ there, if you want to see how the ancients of that nation looked like then just make a trip to the rural side of Egypt. They were neither "black" or "white" they were and are simply Egyptian.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
Yonis2 your picture spamming is irrelevant. Many parts of the modern Egyptian population is heavily mixed with European, Arab and Levantine blood. Pictures don't tell you this, genetics does. Likewise parts of the Egyptian population are quite black in all senses of the term. Modern Egypt is a blend of African, European and Levantine types as a result of Egypt being a historical crossroads of cultures and civilizations for the last 3,000 years or more. The aboriginal indigenous population of the Nile Valley has always been black African, even if many modern Egyptians are not black. The ancient population of Egypt was not populated by the exact same set of phenotypes that are seen today, even if modern Egyptians are descended from ancient Egypt. The fact that many modern Egyptians are not black does not change the fact that there are blacks in Egypt with features no different from other black Africans across the Nile Valley and Sahara. They are not some unique and special class of people just because they happen to be within the borders of Egypt.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
^ Doug is correct. Most modern day Egyptians are very mixed and vary from province to province and from city to city. Even within the same city especially big ones like Cairo there is abundant diversity in looks.
However, there are certain sections of the population that have preserved the looks of their ancient ancestors. Most of these people are located in the very rural areas of Upper Egypt like these folks below:
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Most people have probably noticed now that American "whites" and "blacks" have been arguing and debating for some while now
I see you still haven't learned to shake off that passive voice Yonis.
No need to hide your powerful anti-black emotions behind Americans.
Learn to speak directly, otherwise you sound like a man who doesn't believe himself.
It's about what *you are arguing* - not what some say, others say, some feel, many believe, and the weakly emoted semantics which keep you down.
The Kemetians were Black, by self-definition and that is *exactly* what I consider them. Black was sacred to the Km.t, and I respect them for being proud and not ashamed of their own skins.
Your problems with Km.t being Black are due to the psychological 'beat down' put on you by Arab and Ws.t alike, and I honestly pity you in this regard.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Again, if Black Americans no longer wish to be called Black why should an Egyptian of mixed ancestry?
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Again, if Black Americans no longer wish to be called Black why should an Egyptian of mixed ancestry?
Where'd you get that idea from? I'm African American and I refer to myself and all those with whom I identify, as black. Nearly all of those in my community do the same and I've yet to come across an African American who didn't see him/herself in this light. What Arabized Egyptians in 2007 consider themselves is completely irrelevant..
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Again, if Black Americans no longer wish to be called Black why should an Egyptian of mixed ancestry?
Where'd you get that idea from? I'm African American and I refer to myself and all those with whom I identify, as black. Nearly all of those in my community do the same and I've yet to come across an African American who didn't see him/herself in this light. What Arabized Egyptians in 2007 consider themselves is completely irrelevant..
I sure feel uncomfortable calling anyone Black anymore. I generally do call Black people African American. I always feel like I slipped up if I say Black.
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Again, if Black Americans no longer wish to be called Black why should an Egyptian of mixed ancestry?
Where'd you get that idea from? I'm African American and I refer to myself and all those with whom I identify, as black. Nearly all of those in my community do the same and I've yet to come across an African American who didn't see him/herself in this light. What Arabized Egyptians in 2007 consider themselves is completely irrelevant..
I sure feel uncomfortable calling anyone Black anymore.
Sounds like a personal problem, but it surely has nothing to do with us African Americans who are proud of what we are........Black.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Again, if Black Americans no longer wish to be called Black why should an Egyptian of mixed ancestry?
Where'd you get that idea from? I'm African American and I refer to myself and all those with whom I identify, as black. Nearly all of those in my community do the same and I've yet to come across an African American who didn't see him/herself in this light. What Arabized Egyptians in 2007 consider themselves is completely irrelevant..
I know some that consider themselves Black or are not opposed to the generalization. Many Somalians do not like to be referred to as Black Africans but are not opposed to the Black American label. Of course most Upper Egyptians that are Fellahin are more tribal oriented. Many African Americans to move to these parts of Egypt and fit right in, however, a person from Nigeria would like stick out (lots of Ethiopians would not).
Nice message board irregardless of the obsession with labeling. I suppose there was a time when even Nubians weren't considered Black (boy that really stretching it). I think Black is fine. After some consideration, if Europeans can claim Greece as a completely White society then Egypt should be referred to as Black. I don't know where that leaves Eurasians though. Seems like we don't get credit for anything anymore.
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by osiriun: I think Black is fine. After some consideration, if Europeans can claim Greece as a completely White society then Egypt should be referred to as Black. I don't know where that leaves Eurasians though. Seems like we don't get credit for anything anymore.
Okay, now you're on the right track and are finally starting to make sense. Maybe I was a bit hard on you in the other thread as you truly are trying to understand the social ramifications of labels and how it should and can apply to civilization, though your bias is still apparent by your reference to Eurasia in the context of "seeking credit". As pointed out, it is my contention that it is a double standard to dichotomize Africa, but not Europe. Until that is addressed, I am firm in my classification of Egypt as a Black civilization, the same as how East Flatbush (Brooklyn) is a black neighborhood. As far as "Eurasians", if you mean SW Asians ("middle east"), then why not try focusing on SW Asia if it is "credit" you are actually seeking? That way you won't have to force a relationship between Ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia to find what you are looking for.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:if Europeans can claim Greece as a completely White society
Britain isn't completely white either. Nor is it completely European. You cannot use the word -completely- selectively to qualify Black African identity, but not qualify other identities.
There is no completely European society, there is no completely Jewish society, or culture or even language.
Kemet was Black African socieity on its own terms and was recognised as such throughout history.
It is the ws.t that polluted the discourse via racism, by deciding that in order to justify imperialism...Blacks would erradicated from history in any context other than slave.
It is this ws.t revisionist history that still has Yonis2 entrapped.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Again, if Black Americans no longer wish to be called Black why should an Egyptian of mixed ancestry?
I have no idea. I also have no idea of how your question is relevant to the topic of *Ancient* Egyptians?
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I got into it the other night with some white supremecist who was referencing something called the Stela of Philae.
He says that Sesostris the Third, was a Nordic (crazy, but the pic of the statue he showed, which I later found to only be one of many!) and declared no blacks were to be allowed north of that point. Here's the pic he held up as unassailable proof.
Now of course like all white supremecist whackos who claim the Egyptians were Nordics, all he has is the one "piece of evidence." An accurate term, since it's only a fragment of a larger whole. Like the scumbags who claims Ramses "red hair" was proof positive he was "Nordic." Of course when you ask if Ramses father or children had red hair, or even brown hair for that matter, they mumble something about traits not being passed on and quickly change the subject. i'm still waiting for one Euro-supremecist to explain to me where the Egyptians depicted themselves as blonde or red-headed. BTW, pseaking of Sesostris III Here's two other depictions I found of the same guy:
And his grandfather:
I read Anta Diop's book, and all he pretty much says on that point is that the Stela was misinterpretted, and that Eurocentric's chose to interpret "Nahasi" as "Black," in order to try to undergird the assertion the Egyptians were whites and hated blacks. I would like some mroe information on that. Searchd the archives, but didn't find anything on it. Anyone know anything about what Diop was talking about?
Posts: 248 | From: Way Down South | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:Originally posted by sportbilly: I got into it the other night with some white supremecist who was referencing something called the Stela of Philae.
He says that Sesostris the Third, was a Nordic (crazy, but the pic of the statue he showed, which I later found to only be one of many!) and declared no blacks were to be allowed north of that point.
^ LOL Typical white racist propaganda. During the 12th dynasty, Egypt was having trouble with certain 'Nubian' groups whose raids into Egyptian territories became so bad that Senwosoret III built forts along the southern border and made a decree that "No Nhsi shall pass except to do trade". Of course it was the racist custom first started by Egyptologist James Henry Breasted, to translate Nhsi into "negro"! A custom still followed today.
Of course it doesn't matter to these idiots that the closest word to "negro" in Egyptian is Kem which the Egyptians called themselves!
Nor does it matter that his predecessor from the 11th dynasty, was married to a couple of Nubian wives:
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: ...Pictures of pure Levantines (arabs)
...
But as we all know Arabs are not pure and never have been. And those two pictures of the men above seem to be proof of that with their ambiguous features.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by sportbilly: I got into it the other night with some white supremecist who was referencing something called the Stela of Philae.
He says that Sesostris the Third, was a Nordic (crazy, but the pic of the statue he showed, which I later found to only be one of many!) and declared no blacks were to be allowed north of that point. Here's the pic he held up as unassailable proof.
Now of course like all white supremecist whackos who claim the Egyptians were Nordics, all he has is the one "piece of evidence." An accurate term, since it's only a fragment of a larger whole. Like the scumbags who claims Ramses "red hair" was proof positive he was "Nordic." Of course when you ask if Ramses father or children had red hair, or even brown hair for that matter, they mumble something about traits not being passed on and quickly change the subject. i'm still waiting for one Euro-supremecist to explain to me where the Egyptians depicted themselves as blonde or red-headed. BTW, pseaking of Sesostris III Here's two other depictions I found of the same guy:
And his grandfather:
I read Anta Diop's book, and all he pretty much says on that point is that the Stela was misinterpretted, and that Eurocentric's chose to interpret "Nahasi" as "Black," in order to try to undergird the assertion the Egyptians were whites and hated blacks. I would like some mroe information on that. Searchd the archives, but didn't find anything on it. Anyone know anything about what Diop was talking about?
Ironic to say the least. In addition to what Djehuti explains, I'd also like to point out that despite his shortcomings, Frank Yurco was extremely helpful in dispelling this nonsense in particular. It is appropriate then, that I quote him in full, concerning this supposed issue.
When members of the royal family were descended from such foreign populations or from border areas, pharaonic sculpture and reliefs clearly display their ethnic features. For example, the XIIth Dynasty (1991-1786 B.C.E.) originated from the Aswan region.4 As expected, strong Nubian features and dark coloring are seen in their sculpture and relief work. This dynasty ranks as among the greatest, whose fame far outlived its actual tenure on the throne. Especially interesting, it was a member of this dynasty- that decreed that no Nehsy (riverine Nubian of the principality of Kush), except such as came for trade or diplomatic reasons, should pass by the Egyptian fortress at the southern end of the Second Nile Cataract. Why would this royal family of Nubian ancestry ban other Nubians from coming into Egyptian territory? Because the Egyptian rulers of Nubian ancestry had become Egyptians culturally; as pharaohs, they exhibited typical Egyptian attitudes and adopted typical Egyptian policies. - Source
^I still have some problems with his approach to that, namely the reference to "Nubian features/ancestry", as opposed to Egyptian, but this is actually more than enough to poke major holes in that crappy argument, since even according to Yurco, these people were "blacks" (southerners) themselves.
Such jumble also reminds me of the naivete of Vermeule. As a supposed rebuttal to black Athena, she basically implied that the tensions between Egypt and Kush were racially motivated. However, she doesn't mention conquests with the same ferocity in Syrio-Palestine as the Egyptians began to expand their empire, not to mention that the conflict was deeply political and actually was in major part, a retaliation for a Kushite and Hyksos alliance during the New Kingdom's formative period (which is why directly proceeding, they expanded both south AND north), or actually just prior, as is evidenced by this article, here.
Keita addresses the issue as well, stating:
Excusing the pejorative “tribal warfare” (in Europe it is called ethnic conflict), it is clear that she is saying that this must have been a racial war . . . However, the antagonisms between Kush and Egypt were political and not racial - See, Kamugisha, Aaron. Finally in africa? Egypt, from Diop to Celenko. “Race & Class” 45 (2003): 31-60
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by sportbilly: I got into it the other night with some white supremecist who was referencing something called the Stela of Philae.
He says that Sesostris the Third, was a Nordic (crazy, but the pic of the statue he showed, which I later found to only be one of many!) and declared no blacks were to be allowed north of that point.
^ LOL Typical white racist propaganda. During the 12th dynasty, Egypt was having trouble with certain 'Nubian' groups whose raids into Egyptian territories became so bad that Senwosoret III built forts along the southern border and made a decree that "No Nhsi shall pass except to do trade". Of course it was the racist custom first started by Egyptologist James Henry Breasted, to translate Nhsi into "negro"! A custom still followed today.
Of course it doesn't matter to these idiots that the closest word to "negro" in Egyptian is Kem which the Egyptians called themselves!
Nor does it matter that his predecessor from the 11th dynasty, was married to a couple of Nubian wives:
Nice - you do this well.
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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There are many terms we use here in our specialized sense which the world in general uses quite differently.
Eurasia is one such term.
Due to our heavy concentration with population genetics, Eurasia is what geography makes of it, i.e. the entire landmass of the Asia "kite" and its Europe "tail" with its indigenous peoples.
To the world however Eurasia brings to mind things composed of European and Asian ingredients or places where Europe and Asia border each other.
Thus at one time Austrian tailored cashmere coats were Eurasian, Turkey was Eurasian, war babies in Viet Nam were Eurasians, etc.
On the otherhand, the area refered to below as SW Asia/Middle East has always been Afro-Asia never Eurasia in any sense i.e., Afro-Asian, Afro-Asiatic.
quote:Originally posted by Sundiata:
quote:Originally posted by osiriun: ... I don't know where that leaves Eurasians though. Seems like we don't get credit for anything anymore.
... As far as "Eurasians", if you mean SW Asians ("middle east"), ...
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Got to look for the correct name in the archive.
I don't help folk counter white supremacists but I do have something written up on this pharaoh that you can read here.
quote:Originally posted by sportbilly: ...the Stela of Philae.
He says that Sesostris the Third, was a Nordic ... and declared no blacks were to be allowed north of that point.
I read Anta Diop's book, and all he pretty much says on that point is that the Stela was misinterpretted, and that Eurocentric's chose to interpret "Nahasi" as "Black," in order to try to undergird the assertion the Egyptians were whites and hated blacks.
I would like some mroe information on that. Searchd the archives, but didn't find anything on it. Anyone know anything about what Diop was talking about?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Again, if Black Americans no longer wish to be called Black why should an Egyptian of mixed ancestry?
I have no idea. I also have no idea of how your question is relevant to the topic of *Ancient* Egyptians?
In otherwards, don't be so hard on people that have Black ancestry but do not label themselves as Black. My Grandfather was half Black (Great Grandmother was Ethiopian) but I do not see myself as Black but primarily because it is not my cultural heritage nor am I identifiably Black. Middle Eastern is the handle.
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
So that is a question for this board. Did Egypt stop being Egypt when the Hysoks conqured it. How about when the Nubians. Assyrian? Persians? Who did not conquer Egypt anyways. Copper and Bronze didn't work well against Iron, right?
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Sundiata: Sounds like a personal problem, but it surely has nothing to do with us African Americans who are proud of what we are........Black.
As were the AE. Osirus is called The Great Black. How ironic.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Sundiata: Sounds like a personal problem, but it surely has nothing to do with us African Americans who are proud of what we are........Black.
Well said and I second that. Only a weak minded black person would be ashamed of being called black.
Posts: 342 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Okay, BIG thanks to Djehuti, Smooth Al Takuri and the silent but deadly Sundiata for the info on Senwosoret III.
Another two questions though:
1.) I'd read that the Egyptians, in the Papyrus of Henefu, said they came from the Mountains of the Moon, which was supposed to be at the origin of the White Nile, which is in Uganda. But then the Ethiopians said (at least according to Herodotus) Egypt was a colony of Ethiopian expatriates. Anyone got any opinions on whether the Egyptians were Ugandan in origin or Ethiopian, or was Uganda perhaps part of Ethiopia at one point?
2.) I'd also read on another forum that Hatshepsut was a Nubian, and a lesbian. I'm not at all interested in her sexuality (okay, maybe just a little...) but I would like some of you guys input about Hatshepsut's Nubian roots and for that matter more on the Egyptian's repeated marrying of Nubian brides.
Posts: 248 | From: Way Down South | Registered: Sep 2007
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Many African Americans to move to these parts of Egypt and fit right in, however, a person from Nigeria would like stick out (lots of Ethiopians would not).
So far, I haven't come across a country where any foreigner isn't likely to stick out. For instance, a Nigerian will likely stick out in Cameroon, and the case would be vice versa.
quote:Originally posted by osiriun:
After some consideration, if Europeans can claim Greece as a completely White society then Egypt should be referred to as Black. I don't know where that leaves Eurasians though. Seems like we don't get credit for anything anymore.
It was a matter of time - finally out of the closet so to speak; you came out here talking about trying to approach things unbiased. So you do have an agenda, looking to find credit for what you consider "your people" in the Nile Valley, bypassing the rich history in the so-called Mesopotamia.
Osiriun, don't you find it odd that you feel, that just because people are rightfully characterizing ancient Nile Valley complexes as "African" and "by African", all of a sudden you - "Eurasians" - cease to get credit for "anything anymore"? LOL.
So, you have nothing to look towards to, but ancient complex in Africa, to feel that you've accomplished something? The real question should be, if Africans can't take credit for their own accomplishments, just so they can make "Eurasians" feel happy to get credit for *something*, where does that leave Africans? LOL.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Middle Eastern is the handle.
Middle Eastern is a term invented by the British in the early 20 century to protect their oil interrest. It has no meaning outside of that context, and is nonexistent as a historical reference.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Middle Eastern is the handle.
Middle Eastern is a term invented by the British in the early 20 century to protect their oil interrest. It has no meaning outside of that context, and is nonexistent as a historical reference.
It is what I am called today.
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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Many African Americans to move to these parts of Egypt and fit right in, however, a person from Nigeria would like stick out (lots of Ethiopians would not).
So far, I haven't come across a country where any foreigner isn't likely to stick out. For instance, a Nigerian will likely stick out in Cameroon, and the case would be vice versa.
quote:Originally posted by osiriun:
After some consideration, if Europeans can claim Greece as a completely White society then Egypt should be referred to as Black. I don't know where that leaves Eurasians though. Seems like we don't get credit for anything anymore.
It was a matter of time - finally out of the closet so to speak; you came out here talking about trying to approach things unbiased. So you do have an agenda, looking to find credit for what you consider "your people" in the Nile Valley, bypassing the rich history in the so-called Mesopotamia.
Osiriun, don't you find it odd that you feel, that just because people are rightfully characterizing ancient Nile Valley complexes as "African" and "by African", all of a sudden you - "Eurasians" - cease to get credit for "anything anymore"? LOL.
So, you have nothing to look towards to, but ancient complex in Africa, to feel that you've accomplished something? The real question should be, if Africans can't take credit for their own accomplishments, just so they can make "Eurasians" feel happy to get credit for *something*, where does that leave Africans? LOL.
Rubbish. Of COURSE Egypt was African. Where's the Mesopatamian script/language/tools in Egypt? Where's the cultural and religious influence? Mesopatamia and Egypt are worlds apart. You had your oppourtunity to point that out but you are a weak poster.
Were Eurasians in Egypt since pre-Dynastic times? Sure they were but they were probably more like many Hispanic people in American society - semi-skilled laborers or migrant workers of some sort. Why couldn't you point that out.
Why do many of you resort to emotional rantings and personal attacks rather than stick to scientific principals?
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Osiriun, don't you find it odd that you feel, that just because people are rightfully characterizing ancient Nile Valley complexes as "African" and "by African", all of a sudden you - "Eurasians" - cease to get credit for "anything anymore
There was never civilisation called Mesopotamia. Meso-potamia is a Greek word for and area between rivers. It has the same linguistic structure as Hippo-potamus, where Hippo is greek for horse and Meso is greek for middle and potam is river.
The people involved in ancient Levantine civilisaions like Akadia were Asiatics.
These people are known to the Kemetians as Aamu.
No scholar credits Kemetic civilisation to Asiatic Aamu. Certainly the Kemetians never did, since they largely villified Asiatics as intruders.
And Asiatics did succeed finally - in destroying dynastic Kemet and replacing it with and alien culture which arrogantly postures on African soil to this day.
Here is your *mesopotamian* influence discribed by the KM.t 1st hand:
Pharoah will build the Walls-of-the-Ruler to bar [Asiatics] from entering [Egypt];
They shall beg water as supplicants so as to let their cattle drink. - Prophesy Neferti.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I wonder why the aimed comments at American whites and blacks, the majority of whom don't waste their time talking about the race of the ancient Egyptians. Can people leave their veiled personal attacks out of this?
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Osiriun, don't you find it odd that you feel, that just because people are rightfully characterizing ancient Nile Valley complexes as "African" and "by African", all of a sudden you - "Eurasians" - cease to get credit for "anything anymore
There was never civilisation called Mesopotamia. Meso-potamia is a Greek word for and area between rivers. It has the same linguistic structure as Hippo-potamus, where Hippo is greek for horse and Meso is greek for middle and potam is river.
The people involved in ancient Levantine civilisaions like Akadia were Asiatics.
These people are known to the Kemetians as Aamu.
No scholar credits Kemetic civilisation to Asiatic Aamu. Certainly the Kemetians never did, since they largely villified Asiatics as intruders.
And Asiatics did succeed finally - in destroying dynastic Kemet and replacing it with and alien culture which arrogantly postures on African soil to this day.
Here is your *mesopotamian* influence discribed by the KM.t 1st hand:
Pharoah will build the Walls-of-the-Ruler to bar [Asiatics] from entering [Egypt];
They shall beg water as supplicants so as to let their cattle drink. - Prophesy Neferti.
The Hysoks brought peace and prosperity to Egypt!
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Osiriun, don't you find it odd that you feel, that just because people are rightfully characterizing ancient Nile Valley complexes as "African" and "by African", all of a sudden you - "Eurasians" - cease to get credit for "anything anymore
There was never civilisation called Mesopotamia. Meso-potamia is a Greek word for and area between rivers. It has the same linguistic structure as Hippo-potamus, where Hippo is greek for horse and Meso is greek for middle and potam is river.
The people involved in ancient Levantine civilisaions like Akadia were Asiatics.
These people are known to the Kemetians as Aamu.
No scholar credits Kemetic civilisation to Asiatic Aamu. Certainly the Kemetians never did, since they largely villified Asiatics as intruders.
And Asiatics did succeed finally - in destroying dynastic Kemet and replacing it with and alien culture which arrogantly postures on African soil to this day.
Here is your *mesopotamian* influence discribed by the KM.t 1st hand:
Pharoah will build the Walls-of-the-Ruler to bar [Asiatics] from entering [Egypt];
They shall beg water as supplicants so as to let their cattle drink. - Prophesy Neferti.
The Hysoks brought peace and prosperity to Egypt!
Are you sure about that?
Manetho (Ancient Egyptian priest) on the Hyksos:
In his reign, for what cause I know not, a blast of God smote us; and unexpectedly, from the regions of the East, invaders of obscure race marched in confidence of victory against our land. By main force they easily overpowered the rulers of the land, they then burned our cities ruthlessly, razed to the ground the temples of the gods, and treated all the natives with a cruel hostility, massacring some and leading into slavery the wives and children of others. Finally, they appointed as king one of their number whose name was Salitis. He had his seat at Memphis, levying tribute from Upper and Lower Egypt, and leaving garrisons behind in the most advantageous positions. Above all, he fortified the district to the east, foreseeing that the Assyrians, as they grew stronger, would one day covet and attack his kingdom. - Manetho, Aegyptiaca., frag. 42, 1.75-79.2Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Osiriun, don't you find it odd that you feel, that just because people are rightfully characterizing ancient Nile Valley complexes as "African" and "by African", all of a sudden you - "Eurasians" - cease to get credit for "anything anymore
There was never civilisation called Mesopotamia. Meso-potamia is a Greek word for and area between rivers. It has the same linguistic structure as Hippo-potamus, where Hippo is greek for horse and Meso is greek for middle and potam is river.
The people involved in ancient Levantine civilisaions like Akadia were Asiatics.
These people are known to the Kemetians as Aamu.
No scholar credits Kemetic civilisation to Asiatic Aamu. Certainly the Kemetians never did, since they largely villified Asiatics as intruders.
And Asiatics did succeed finally - in destroying dynastic Kemet and replacing it with and alien culture which arrogantly postures on African soil to this day.
Here is your *mesopotamian* influence discribed by the KM.t 1st hand:
Pharoah will build the Walls-of-the-Ruler to bar [Asiatics] from entering [Egypt];
They shall beg water as supplicants so as to let their cattle drink. - Prophesy Neferti.
The Hysoks brought peace and prosperity to Egypt!
Are you sure about that?
Manetho (Ancient Egyptian priest) on the Hyksos:
In his reign, for what cause I know not, a blast of God smote us; and unexpectedly, from the regions of the East, invaders of obscure race marched in confidence of victory against our land. By main force they easily overpowered the rulers of the land, they then burned our cities ruthlessly, razed to the ground the temples of the gods, and treated all the natives with a cruel hostility, massacring some and leading into slavery the wives and children of others. Finally, they appointed as king one of their number whose name was Salitis. He had his seat at Memphis, levying tribute from Upper and Lower Egypt, and leaving garrisons behind in the most advantageous positions. Above all, he fortified the district to the east, foreseeing that the Assyrians, as they grew stronger, would one day covet and attack his kingdom. - Manetho, Aegyptiaca., frag. 42, 1.75-79.2
They were seen as invaders regardless of the properity they brought!
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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If you feel that the most logical followup to your post is rubbish, then you might want to drop this rubbish:
After some consideration, if Europeans can claim Greece as a completely White society then Egypt should be referred to as Black. I don't know where that leaves Eurasians though. Seems like we don't get credit for anything anymore. - Osiriun
...so that a question addressing the rubbish, doesn't sound rubbish as well.
quote:Originally posted by osiriun:
Where's the Mesopatamian script/language/tools in Egypt? Where's the cultural and religious influence? Mesopatamia and Egypt are worlds apart. You had your oppourtunity to point that out but you are a weak poster.
Were Eurasians in Egypt since pre-Dynastic times? Sure they were but they were probably more like many Hispanic people in American society - semi-skilled laborers or migrant workers of some sort. Why couldn't you point that out.
Of what relevance are these trivial points to characterizing Egypt as being African, which is what you were whining about? If some one says that some "Asiatic" servants were here and there in Kemet, how does that affect anything about rightfully characterizing it 'African'?
quote:Originally posted by osiriun:
Why do many of you resort to emotional rantings and personal attacks rather than stick to scientific principals?
quote:Originally posted by osiriun: They were seen as invaders regardless of the prosperity they brought!
Didn't you read that description by Manetho? How do you call all that destruction and subjugation "prosperity"?!
quote:Somewhat like the Us in Iraq.
And since when did the U.S. burn down Mosques, kill men, and enslave women and children?! Seriously, Osiriun what are you thinking??
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: If you feel that the most logical followup to your post is rubbish, then you might want to drop this rubbish:
After some consideration, if Europeans can claim Greece as a completely White society then Egypt should be referred to as Black. I don't know where that leaves Eurasians though. [b]Seems like we don't get credit for anything anymore.
and...
Were Eurasians in Egypt since pre-Dynastic times? Sure they were but they were probably more like many Hispanic people in American society - semi-skilled laborers or migrant workers of some sort. Why couldn't you point that out. - Osiriun
Ah! I see now. You feel somewhat misled that there is no "Eurasian" credit in Egyptian civilization and you seem to be desperate for that. As I recall you expressed this notion last time you were here, alot this having to do with your Jewish 'heritage' and wanting to impart Kemet as part of that heritage.
First of all, let it be known that even though the Hyksos were Asiatics, they were NOT the Hebrew ancestors you claim.
Second, if you are so proud of your Jewish/Hebrew ancestry why try to (in vain) make Egypt a part of this heritage when it obviously is not. Yes Jewish/Hebrew history is intimately linked with Egypt but do not try to make the mistake of Eurocentrics in denying the obvious African identity and credit that Egypt was.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Rubbish. Look at the death toll in Iraq. Look at what is left of the infrastructure. The benefits to the Iraqi people may finally come but the Americans will be remembered for the atrocities (rape and murder of innocent civilians) and the abuse (Abdu Girabi) and the intent of plundering (Oir reserves).
As for the connection between Egypt and Mesopatamia. Are you sure there is no connection or is that like your answer to the question about classical writers and descriptions of Egyptians?
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Rubbish. Look at the death toll in Iraq. Look at what is left of the infrastructure. The benefits to the Iraqi people may finally come but the Americans will be remembered for the atrocities (rape and murder of innocent civilians) and the abuse (Abdu Girabi) and the intent of plundering (Oir reserves).
I haven't heard any news of U.S. soldiers raping Iraqi women though I do not dismiss the possibility. As for murder, I don't even take all those stories of U.S troops committing "massacre" with a grain of salt as rightly, the only ones committing true massacres are Iraqi terorrists who resort to suicide bombings.
Either way, again when has the U.S. actually razed to the ground Iraqi mosques or enslave people the same way the Hyksos did? They didn't so please do not involve modern politics into this ancient event. There is a board for that here.
quote:As for the connection between Egypt and Mesopatamia. Are you sure there is no connection or is that like your answer to the question about classical writers and descriptions of Egyptians?
LOL If you recall that particular writer you cited isn't from the Classical Greek period but from the Roman period. And well, Sundiata pretty much answered your reply.
As for Mesopotamian 'connection'. Other than economic ties via trade, what other connection do you suppose? Any evidence of such?
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Sundiata: Sounds like a personal problem, but it surely has nothing to do with us African Americans who are proud of what we are........Black.
Well said and I second that. Only a weak minded black person would be ashamed of being called black.
Me 3!
Well, not only the weak minded, but pretty much so. A misled person might dis-like the word aswell.
quote:Originally posted by Charlie Bass: I wonder why the aimed comments at American whites and blacks, the majority of whom don't waste their time talking about the race of the ancient Egyptians. Can people leave their veiled personal attacks out of this?
The world may never know...
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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Actually, Egyptomania romancing and the attempt to ethno-identify with ancient Egypt, is a reality in Europe and the U.S. Africans at large don't talk about it much, until if and when they come to these regions and come across any questioning of its 'Africanity'. If in doubt, also ask: Who make up most of the tourists that come to see the ancient Nile Valley relics? Who makes movies about Ancient Egyptians being played by white actors?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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^ Indeed. Some whites complain about Afrocentrism when it comes to the study of Egypt but look at how Egypt (an African culture) is presented by the Western media/!
Oh and another good question to add to Mystery's list: Who among Western tourists are mistaken for being native Egyptians?! Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ And you base this on.. the way they look?!
LOL Uh oh guys, looks like we have another 'one'.
yes, because the are neither white or black,Bcak african male haplogroup are A, B, an E, and white ones are G,I,J,K and R.
Posts: 1106 | From: Puerto Rico | Registered: Aug 2007
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^ You make no sense. First of all, those are obviously all photos of black men. And second you cannot correlate haplogroups to skin color or phenotype. For example, R is also carried by West African Cameroonians while E is also found in Greeks.
Looks like you are just another person who knows not what he says. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Are you sure about that?![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
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Didn't you read that description by Manetho? How do you call all that destruction and subjugation "prosperity"?!![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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