posted Kadashman Enlil of Babylon to Amenhotep of Egypt [....] How is it possible that, having written to you in order to ask for the hand of your daughter - oh my brother, you should have written me using such language, telling me that you will not give her to me as since earliest times no daughter of the king of Egypt has ever been given in marriage? Why are you telling me such things? You are the king. You may do as you wish. If you wanted to give me your daughter in marriage who could say you nay?
But you, keeping to your principle of not sending anybody, have not sent me a wife. Have you not been looking for a fraternal and amical relationship, when you suggested to me - in writing - a marriage, in order to make us become closer? Why hasn't my brother sent me a wife? [...] It is possible for you not to send me a wife, but how could I refuse you a wife and not send her to you, as you did? I have daughters, I will not refuse you in any way concerning this....
As to the gold about which I wrote you, send me now quickly during this summer [.... ] before your messenger reach me, gold in abundance, as much as is available. I could thus achieve the task I have undertaken. If you send me this summer [...] the gold concerning which I've written to you, I shall give you my daughter in marriage. Therefore, send gold, willingly, as much as you please. But if you do not send me gold [...] so I can achieve the task I have undertaken , why haven't you sent me any earlier willingly? After I have finished the task I have undertaken , why would I wish for gold? Even if you sent me 3000 talents of gold I would not accept them. I would return them and would not give you my daughter in marriage.
LOL
Mike111 Member # 9361
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The Egyptians were very snobbish, and thought themselves too good to have to offer their Princesses as the price for good relations with other country's.
I believe that one of the prime motivations for Assyrian and Persian determination to conquer Egypt, was their desire to elevate their persona of ignorant uncouth neophytes by such conquest.
Of course, in the case of the Persians, all they truly accomplished was to lay the world open for Caucasian conquest. I guess they really were ignorant.
Johnny Blaze Member # 13931
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Mike111 I totally agree,great response.
Djehuti Member # 6698
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^ Actually the letter likely gives credence to the theory that royal women are associated with the throne in a way that only Pharaohs or those eligible for the title of Pharaoh can marry a royal woman, and unfortunately for the Babyonian king, that means only native Egyptian men!
Thus the only way an Egyptian can become pharaoh is by marrying an Egyptian royal woman. A foreign man doing this is out of the question. Notice that a pharaoh can have foreign wives in his harem, but only a native Egyptian wife is eligible for the position of chief wife or 'queen' (interestingly enough with the rare exception of certain 'Nubian' women).
Djehuti Member # 6698
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...
Willing Thinker {What Box} Member # 10819
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LOL,
and good point about the Kings harem vs the Queen position.
alTakruri Member # 10195
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I recall a seemingly one of a kind incident of an AE throne royal lady as a proposed marriage partner to a foreign noble from a comic book, Cartoon History of the Universe.
The details come from a Hittite record with no Egyptian counterpart or confirmation. They call the Egyptian queen dakhamunzu. She wrote to king Suppiluliuma asking for one of his sons. But the one who was sent, Zannanza, never arrived.
The instance proves the veracity of Djehuti's statements. Hittite annals mention a widow of a pharaoh writing to the Hittites for a husband who after marrying her would be king of Egypt. No Egyptian record confirms the account and it may have been a ruse or forgery because the Hittite prince was assasinated on his way to Egypt.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Actually the letter likely gives credence to the theory that royal women are associated with the throne in a way that only Pharaohs or those eligible for the title of Pharaoh can marry a royal woman, and unfortunately for the Babyonian king, that means only native Egyptian men!
Thus the only way an Egyptian can become pharaoh is by marrying an Egyptian royal woman. A foreign man doing this is out of the question. Notice that a pharaoh can have foreign wives in his harem, but only a native Egyptian wife is eligible for the position of chief wife or 'queen' (interestingly enough with the rare exception of certain 'Nubian' women).
Djehuti Member # 6698
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^ Takruri, I believe the incident you speak of is with Tutankhamun's wife, Ankhesenamun. When Tut died, it is said Ankhesenamun wrote a letter to a foreign prince asking for his hand in marriage, although he was said to be a prince of Mitanni. As you stated, the prince accepted and was eager to travel to Egypt but was assassinated on his way. Ankhesenamun was then wed to Tut's general Horemheb. The whole incident was one reason why some scholars suspected Horemheb or others to be involved in some poltical conspiracy or even responsibility for Tut's death.
Djehuti Member # 6698
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Of some relevance to the discussion is this old thread here.
alTakruri Member # 10195
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I got this on a website I don't recommend anyone go to unless you have serious internet security measures implemented on your MAC or PC.
1) Letter of the Egyptian queen to the Hittite king: request for a husband (Envoy: unknown, perhaps Chani)
quote: While my father was in the country of Karkemish, he sent Lupakkish and Teshub[?]- Zalmash to the country of Amqa. They left; they ravaged the country of Amqa and brought back to my father prisoners and cattle large and small.
2) Letter of the Hittite king to the Egyptian queen: is the request for real?? (Envoy: Chattushaziti)
quote: When my father learned this he called together the council of the great [and said to them]: "Since the most ancient times such a thing has never happened before."
He decided to send Hattu-Zittish, the chamberlain, [saying] "Go, bring me information worthy of belief; they may try to deceive me; and as to the possibility that they may have a prince, bring me back information worthy of belief."
3) Letter of the Egyptian queen to the Hittite king: why does the Hittite king mistrust her? request for husband confirmed (Envoy: Chani)
quote: While Hattu-Zittish was absent on the soil of Egypt, my father vanquished the city of Karkemish ...The ambassador of Egypt, the lord Hanis, came to him. Because my father had instructed Hattu-Zittish when he went to the country of Egypt as follows: "Perhaps they have a prince, they may be trying to deceive me and do not really want one of my sons to reign over them."
Because my father was generous, he granted the lady's request and decided to send his son.
4) Letter [of an unknown Hittite] to the Hittite king: 'they' have killed prince Zannanza! (Envoy: unknown)
quote: Yikes!!!
from the Annals of Suppiluliuma by Mursili II in Christiane DesRoches-Noblecourt Tutankhamen New York Graphic Society, 1963 pp. 275-6
Djehuti Member # 6698
posted
^ Very intriguing, indeed! Was this letter from Ankhesenamun or from some other royal woman??
It seems the queen was back up between a rock and a hard place where she had no sons to inherit the throne and the only men availabe to marry her were either natives who were not royal or princes who were foreign!
I wonder what became of her, or who among her servants did she marry? If it indeed was Ankhesenamun then the general Horemheb became her husband.
Yonis Member # 7684
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Didn't the high priest Aayie take the throne before Horemheb after Tutankhamun?
Anyways doesn't this just highlight the fact that alot of royalty members were of asiatic descent considering that Amenhotep III requested wives from babylon and ankhesenamun requested a prince from the hittites before accepting a native (servant) to climb the throne? These clay letters are also very scarce but still they are rich in correspondence between levant kings and egyptian kings in terms of exchange of their offsprings. therefore I don't think it's far fetched to see this as a tradition even before the Amarna period and continued after this period. It probably even increased after the 18th dynasty with Seti I most likely being an offsprings off these asiatic kings and integrated into the egyptian monarcy. It's quite evident that the mummies of Seti I and Ramses clan are different in terms of look from their immediate predecessors.
There are no other letters found after and before this period so no one can really prove that this was just a phase thing and suddenly stopped after the Amarna rulers were ousted. Everything points to the fact that importing princes and princesses from neighbouring kingdoms and allies was a very common thing and part of AE tradition.
Djehuti Member # 6698
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^ There is little doubt there were members of the royal family who were of foreign even Asiatic descent. The main thing to note however, is that those royals who were of 'pure' native (Egyptian) blood were of higher status and were the ones involved in the actual succession of rule.
A Pharoah was always a native Egyptian man and usually one of royal blood (a prince) either related to the previous pharoah, or from another royal family. If the prince was a son of the Pharaoh by his chief wife, then he automatically inherits the throne. If he is not the Pharaoh's son but some other relative, he must first marry either the Pharaoh's wife (if she is a widow) or marry a female relative of his, usually his daughter. The same goes if he is a prince from another royal family, he must first wed a female relation of the previous pharoah in order for him to become the new pharaoh.
As pharaoh he can have as many wives as he wants in his harem, including foreign wives. However, only a native Egyptian woman can have the title of chief wife which is what we call 'queen'. It is the queen or her daughters who are the true possessors of the throne, and the only way a man can claim the throne and become pharaoh is to marry the royal woman who owns the throne.
This can even be seen in the Egyptian mythology where the goddess Aset (Isis) is represented by a throne and is depicted as a woman wearing a headdress in the shape of a throne.
While the position of pharaoh was usually held by a man, his seat of power or right to rule was held by a woman. Thus men are the rulers while women are the rule. This may be part of the reason behind royal incest where a Pharaoh's wife is sometimes his sister and even occasionally his daughter!
As you can tell by everything described above, this system of royal inheritance is made so only Egyptians of native ancestry can hold any ties to the actual throne or rulership of Egypt. But since women were the ones who controlled access to the throne itself, there was definitely a double-standard. Again a Pharaoh can have foreign wives but only a son by his chief wife who is native can rule. On the other hand, a chief wife or royal woman apparently could not marry a foreign prince, even if she wanted to as can be seen by the letter that Takruri presented.
One would think that as royalty even divine royalty the queens and even kings had absolute power, but often this is far from the case at all. I have source on the institue of divine kingship in Africa that I wish to present on this forum when I get the chance.
Alive-(What Box) Member # 10819
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Actually the letter likely gives credence to the theory that royal women are associated with the throne in a way that only Pharaohs or those eligible for the title of Pharaoh can marry a royal woman, and unfortunately for the Babyonian king, that means only native Egyptian men!
^Yep.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: The Egyptians were very snobbish, and thought themselves too good to have to offer their Princesses as the price for good relations with other country's.
I believe that one of the prime motivations for Assyrian and Persian determination to conquer Egypt, was their desire to elevate their persona of ignorant uncouth neophytes by such conquest.
Of course, in the case of the Persians, all they truly accomplished was to lay the world open for Caucasian conquest.
Maybe if by 'the world' you mean Kemet/Egypt.
It would be nice to see you elucidate here...
Otherwise, I actually plain agree with your entire assessment (especially the uncouth neophyte part).
[quote] I guess they really were ignorant.
LOL.
Anyone ever notice how much better we all 'Gel' when the subject is ancient Kemet and its political affairs rather than the Kemau's ethnic affinities?
Tyrann0saurus Member # 3735
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: One would think that as royalty even divine royalty the queens and even kings had absolute power, but often this is far from the case at all. I have source on the institue of divine kingship in Africa that I wish to present on this forum when I get the chance.
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