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Alexander the Great: Horus, the Protector of Egypt; King of Upper and Lower Egypt; Beloved by Amun; the chosen one of Ra; the Son of Ra
"Horus, the strong ruler, he who seizes the lands of the foreigners, beloved of Amun and the chosen one of Ra - meryamun setepenra Aleksandros".
quote:Alexander was therefore hailed as Savior and Liberator, and as the people's choice and legitimate heir he was offered the double crown of the Two Lands. Anointed as pharaoh in Memphis on 14 November 332 bc, the culmination of his coronation was the climactic moment when the high priest named him 'son of the gods' according to traditions dating back almost 3,000 years. This title deeply affected him, and Olympias' references to him being the son of Zeus must have filled his mind; indeed, there were even scenes of the king of the gods Amun ('Zeus') impregnating selected queens with the heir to the throne! In a world where the gods were perceived as living entities and were considered a part of everyday life, Alexander must now have began to believe in his own divinity as a fact rather than a simple exercise of propaganda.
Always a devout man who began each day with sacrifices to the gods, Alexander had no difficulty worshipping the Egyptian deities. Equating their gods with his own, he worshipped the Egyptian Amun as a form of Zeus. At the Memphite necropolis of Sakkara the new pharaoh offered sacrifices to the Apis bull, cult animal of the creator god Ptah, followed by Greek-style games and literary contests in which performers from all over the Greek world took part in a multi-cultural extravaganza. These kind of events mark the beginnings of Hellenism in their blending of Greek practices and local traditions, and Egypt and Greece would successfully co-exist for the next 3 centuries.
Ever keen to discuss philosophy which the Greeks believed to have originated in Egypt, Alexander attended lectures given by the Egyptian philosopher Psammon. Wholeheartedly agreeing with his teaching that "all men are ruled by god, because in every case that element which imposes itself and achieves mastery is divine", Alexander also drew on his own experiences when he added that whilst god is indeed the father of all mankind, "it is the noblest and best whom he makes his own" (Plutarch).
In the two months he resided as 'living god' in the royal palace at Memphis, studying Egyptian laws and customs at first hand, he gave orders for the restoration of the Egyptians' religious centers, including the great southern temples of Luxor and Karnak, where he appears in the company of the Egyptian gods wearing traditional Egyptian regalia including the rams horns of Amun as worn by his pharaonic predecessors including Amenhotep III. Alexander's image was replicated all over Egypt in both monumental statuary and delicate relief, together his with his Greek name translated into hieroglyphs enclosed by the royal cartouche: "Horus, the strong ruler, he who seizes the lands of the foreigners, beloved of Amun and the chosen one of Ra - meryamun setepenra Aleksandros".
He then left Memphis in January 331 bc and sailed down the western branch of the Nile to inspect the Greek trading colony of Naucratis. Its land-bound position offered no scope for development, so Alexander pressed on toward the coast to reach the Egyptian fort of Rhakotis referred to by both Herodotus and Thucydides, close to Lake Mareotis where a narrow ridge divides its waters from the sea. Consulting Homer he had arrived on the coast at a site mentioned in the Odyssey: "Out of the sea where it breaks on the shores of Egypt rises an island from the waters: the name men give it is Pharos" (Odyssey IV.354-355). Noting that Homer was a clever city planner as well as a great poet, Alexander observed the deep waters of its well-sheltered, natural harbor and an uncanny similarity to the impressive location of Tyre. As Arrian says "he was immediately struck by the excellence of the site, and convinced that if a city were built upon it, it would certainly prosper. Such was his enthusiasm that he could not wait to begin the work and himself designed the general layout of the town, indicating the position of the market place and the temples and which gods they should serve, the gods of Greece and Egypt, and the exact limits of the defenses". Working with the architect Deinocrates of Rhodes, the stonemason Numenios and a technical adviser named Hyponomos, Alexander also planned the site of the royal palace and even worked out a complex system of underground drains and sewers.
In Alexander's haste there were no immediate means of marking out the ground until it was suggested they use barley flour from the soldiers' rations. This they sprinkled on the ground as the king led the way along his imagined roads and avenues, laid out in the form of a Macedonian military cloak (chlamys) as his architects trailed along behind. When a great flock of birds descended and ate all traces of his new city, Alexander's initial fears were allayed by his soothsayer Aristander who pronounced that the city would flourish, producing abundant resources which would nourish its people.
Whilst planning his gateway into the Mediterranean, Alexander also received the welcome news that Cyprus, Rhodes and Phoenicia and the Aegean islands of Tenedos, Lesbos, Kos and Chios had all come over to his side. As their former pro-Persian leaders were delivered to him for judgement, Alexander dispatched them south to the Greek garrison at Aswan, accompanied by Callisthenes whom Alexander sent southward to investigate Aristotle's theory that the annual Nile flood was a result of rains to the south. Having selected the optimum location for Alexandria, the king then set out west along the coastal road to Paraetonium (Mersa Matruh) in late January 331 bc. Leaving the main body of the army in Egypt, his military escort included his friends and Companions together with local guides, and as they advanced 200 miles along the coast toward Libya they received envoys from the Greek colony of Cyrene offering their allegiance, together with lavish gifts including 300 horses and a golden crown.
Alexander then turned south to follow the ancient caravan route through the Northern Sahara, which connected the Mediterranean coastline to central Africa via the all-important network of oases. The major oasis at Siwa was also home to the world renowned Oracle of the god Amun (the Libyan form of Ammon) (see also Oracles) described in Herodotus' Histories (II.31-32) which Alexander, like many other famous men before him, intended to consult. After only a few days crossing the sands, the party ran out of water and were only saved by a sudden violent rainstorm, interpreted by the expedition historian Callisthenes as divine intervention. Their sojourn was then interrupted by one of the regular terrifying sandstorms sweeping up from the south to obliterate any recognizable landmarks, and with the track indistinguishable from desert and the landscape featureless as far as the eye could see, the guides employed for the journey were soon lost. Mindful that hostile Persian forces of Cambyses had been obliterated in exactly the same circumstances in their attempts to reach Siwa two centuries before, his companions had been unable to dissuade Alexander from undertaking the perilous journey. "Fortune, by giving in to him on every occasion, had made his resolve unshakable and so he was able to overcome not only his enemies, but even places and seasons of the year" says Plutarch. And indeed, disaster was once again averted when two black ravens miraculously appeared, Alexander exhorting his colleagues to follow them as they must have been sent by the gods to guide them. Callisthenes records that the ravens limited their flight to accommodate the party, even cawing loudly if their charges deviated from the correct path. Ptolemy says that their guides took the form of two snakes, and whilst unsure which, Arrian confesses that "I have no doubt whatever that he had divine assistance of some kind". And so the myth of Alexander had begun, and gained momentum as tales spread of his supernatural powers which could summon divine guardians at will. It was also becoming increasingly plausible to those around him that he might even be that he claimed to be, the son of god himself. His divinity would be confirmed once and for all by consulting the Oracle, his need for self-validation explaining the risks he had taken on the perilous desert march. As the exhausted men entered Siwa, their eyes would have been filled with the beauty of its lush, fertile oasis. Shady groves of palms and fruit trees bordered waters which gushed forth in abundance from subterranean springs and here in the mystical surroundings of the Spring of the Sun they refreshed themselves. With no prior knowledge of their arrival, immense curiosity and excitement must have greeted the Greek soldiers emerging weary from the desert, at their head the first pharaoh ever to complete the dangerous journey.
Anxious to visit the Oracle as soon as possible, Alexander then went immediately to the temple of Amun, its location on the high rock outcrop of Aghurmi deeply impressing him. Plutarch says that according to his sources, Alexander was met by the Siwan high priest who greeted him with the words "O, paidion", "Oh, my son", but mispronounced the Greek as "O, pai dios" meaning "Oh, son of god", much to Alexander's delight and amazement. The small number of his party waited in the temple forecourt, and after the high priest announced to all present that the god was content, they could proceed with their questions. One of the Macedonians asked the Oracle whether they might give their king divine honors, to which the reply came "This would please Ammon". Then in his capacity as pharaoh and high priest of all the gods, Alexander was led into to the heavily-scented darkness of the inner sanctuary to put his questions personally to the god himself. When he finally emerged into the daylight, he was met by his friends anxious to know exactly what had transpired. Alexander would only say he had been given 'the answer his heart desired'. That the main subject discussed had been the nature of his divine paternity seems the most likely, since he was adamant that the only other person he would tell these 'secret prophecies' to would be his mother, and as he told Olympias in a letter this would only be face to face on his return to Macedonia. Plutarch states that Alexander also asked if his father Philip II's murder had been avenged, whereupon "the high priest asked him to choose his words more carefully, for his father was not a mortal". He may also have sought divine approval for his new Egyptian city, whose viability as a trading center would also have been confirmed by his checking the age-old caravan routes to the Mediterranean which passed through Siwa.
Whatever his questions had been, Alexander was sufficiently satisfied with the answers to present magnificent offerings to the Oracle, and over the remaining eight years of his life would send frequent gifts to its priests, together with more questions. Always eager to receive its answers, Alexander, with his unshakable faith in oracles, would also act on their advice, whether it suited his purpose or not. According to his general and biographer Ptolemy, Alexander then returned to Memphis along the direct route via the Qattara Depression. On arrival he made sacrifices to Zeus-Amun, held a great parade of troops and received 500 Greek mercenaries and 400 Thessalian cavalry sent from his regent Antipater back in Macedonia. He then made final arrangements for the governing of the Egypt in his absence. Arrian says that Alexander had been deeply impressed by Egypt "and the general strength of the country, but the fact this had been greater than he expected, induced him to divide the control of it between a number of his officers, as too unsafe to put it all in the hands of one man". Following Aristotle's advice that a king must hold an even balance between all parties he therefore appointed a combination of Egyptians, Macedonians and Persians to rule Egypt along traditional lines. Alexander left Egypt in the spring (mid-April) of 331 bc a changed man. Although he would never return alive to see the city he had founded, it would eventually be his final resting place when his embalmed body was returned there for burial only 10 years later.
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^ I take it you are a fan of Alexander the Great. LOL
Alexander was an example of the good foreign rulers. He displaced the Persian rulers who were considered more tyrannical in that they did not take part in the Egyptian religion. Alexander on the other hand admired Egyptian culture and religion, something he probably inherited from his Greek mentor Aristotle and other Greek scholars. Like many Greeks, he identified the Egyptian gods with his own and honored the people by taking part in their rituals. Perhaps the only foreign ruler beloved even more by the Egyptians was Cleopatra Ptolemy who was fluent in the Egyptian language.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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This was an interesting statue, phenotype looks quite distinct from the other egyptian statues, very european. Was it made in Egypt or in Greece/Macedonia?
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Alexander's conquest made for the era of Hellenization which is particularly marked by plastic arts in the Greek mold clear to India.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis: This was an interesting statue, phenotype looks quite distinct from the other egyptian statues, very european. Was it made in Egypt or in Greece/Macedonia?
It was made in Egypt. It is very interesting, especially when compared to the traditional depictions of Ptolemy I Soter or Augustus. Posts: 32 | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis: It's enough calling him Alexander, i think the "great" part is a bit exagerated.
Of course, many consider a man 'great' for conquering an empire as vast as from Greece and Egypt to Afghanistan and India.
By the way, have any of you guys seen the movie 'Alexander' starring Collin Farrel?? (I'm sure YOU have 'AlexandertheConqueror') I wanted to see it when it first came out, until my sister who saw it told me about how the director Oliver Stone got a little "carried away" with the homosexual parts! Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis: It's enough calling him Alexander, i think the "great" part is a bit exagerated.
By the way, have any of you guys seen the movie 'Alexander' starring Collin Farrel?? (I'm sure YOU have 'AlexandertheConqueror') I wanted to see it when it first came out, until my sister who saw it told me about how the director Oliver Stone got a little "carried away" with the homosexual parts!
Did Macedonians have the same penchant for homosexuality as their Greek neighbors?
I never saw the movie, but I don't get the blond Alexander. I'm sure there were blond Macedonians back then (and they probably were fairer-haired and lighter-skinned than Greeks in general), but I thought he was supposed to be a brunette.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tyrannosaurus: Did Macedonians have the same penchant for homosexuality as their Greek neighbors?
In short, yeah! If you know the history of Alexander, you would know that Alexander's father, King Philip II was assassinated by one of his own bodguards named Pausanias. According to Aristotle, Pausanias was the young male lover of Philip until Philip became interested in a younger man whose name also Pausanias. Something happened where the younger Pausanias either committed suicide because of insult from the older, or more likely was murdered. Unfotunately the younger Pausanias was an associate of Attalus a Macedonian nobleman whose daughter was to marry Philip (even though Philip already had a wife). In revenge, Attalus got Pausanias drunk and had him sexually assaulted by his men, but King Philip did nothing to avenge that crime-- hence his revenge against Philip. Although many think the assassination plot also involved Philip's wife Olympia.
And then Alexander's best friend was Hephaestion who some scholars think was also his male lover.
So there pretty much was alot of homosexual behavior going on in Macedonian society as well.
quote:I never saw the movie, but I don't get the blond Alexander. I'm sure there were blond Macedonians back then (and they probably were fairer-haired and lighter-skinned than Greeks in general), but I thought he was supposed to be a brunette.
Macedonia is immediately north of Greece. Both countries are in the Balkan peninsula of southeast Europe. Of course dark hair prevails throughout southern Europe along the Mediterranean. The frequency of lighter color hair increases the farther north one goes, but even in Macedonia blondes are not that common. Brown hair occurs more common than blonde hair.
The "blondism" the movie portrays is just a vestige of the WASP/Nordism that was more prevalent back then than it is today. Of course you still have certain 'groups' who say the ancient Greeks who built Classical civilization were blonde Nordics, even though all evidence from the Greeks themselves show the opposite and that they associated blonde Nordics with primitive barbarianism.
You are correct that the whole hair bleaching was a waste and nothing more than a perpetuation of the nordist fantasy.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^ I don't know. All the sources I've read only stated that Clitus Melas was a friend. I haven't heard any suggestions of intimate relationships, but in the Greco-Macedonian culture of 'male bonding' especially between warriors, I would not doubt the possibility. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis: It's enough calling him Alexander, i think the "great" part is a bit exagerated.
Of course, many consider a man 'great' for conquering an empire as vast as from Greece and Egypt to Afghanistan and India.
By the way, have any of you guys seen the movie 'Alexander' starring Collin Farrel?? (I'm sure YOU have 'AlexandertheConqueror') I wanted to see it when it first came out, until my sister who saw it told me about how the director Oliver Stone got a little "carried away" with the homosexual parts!
I thought the film was mediocre. It was not historically accurate and passed over many important events but it was fairly entertaining. The homosexual parts or insinuations were a bit overdone. I still haven't seen Stone's final cut.
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^ I heard the same from everyone who's seen it. Frankly I'm not surprised, nor have I ever expected it to be even 90% historically accurate. It is after all, Hollywood.
And of course 300 was based on a comic book. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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As quiet as it's kept a few East African warrior ethnies practiced wartime homosexuality. There was something about staying off of the enemy women during wars and skirmishes.
Of course this wasn't to the same extent of some Hellenes where a boy training to be a soldier had to be his personal trainer's boyfriend as well as shield bearer.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I don't know. All the sources I've read only stated that Clitus Melas was a friend. I haven't heard any suggestions of intimate relationships, but in the Greco-Macedonian culture of 'male bonding' especially between warriors, I would not doubt the possibility.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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I never saw the movie, but I don't get the blond Alexander. I'm sure there were blond Macedonians back then (and they probably were fairer-haired and lighter-skinned than Greeks in general), but I thought he was supposed to be a brunette.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti Macedonia is immediately north or Greece. Both countries are in the Balkan peninsula of southeast Europe. Of course dark hair prevails throughout southern Europe along the Mediterranean. The frequency of lighter color hair increases the farther north one goes, but even in Macedonia blondes are not that common. Brown hair occurs more common than blonde hair.
The "blondism" the movie portrays is just a vestige of the WASP/Nordism that was more prevalent back then than it is today. Of course you still have certain 'groups' who say the ancient Greeks who built Classical civilization were blonde Nordics, even though all evidence from the Greeks themselves show the opposite and that they associated blonde Nordics with primitive barbarianism.
You are correct that the whole hair bleaching was a waste and nothing more than a perpetuation of the nordist fantasy.
I'm sure Alexander had fair blondish-brown hair (probably more brunette than anything ) Posts: 32 | Registered: Jul 2007
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^ Alexander was just hailed as a liberator to Persian oppression. Nothing more, nothing less.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Oh, I meant best friend, not lover.
As quiet as it's kept a few East African warrior ethnies practiced wartime homosexuality. There was something about staying off of the enemy women during wars and skirmishes.
Of course this wasn't to the same extent of some Hellenes where a boy training to be a soldier had to be his personal trainer's boyfriend as well as shield bearer.
The Azande is the only East African ethny that practices this.
quote:Originally posted by AlexandertheConqueror: I'm sure Alexander had fair blondish-brown hair (probably more brunette than anything )
Other than that mosaic, do you have any evidence of this? Again, blonde hair wasn't a common trait in the Balkans and most depictions show him as dark haired. This reminds me, that a friend of mine saw the movie 'My Big Fat Greek Wedding' and was somewhat suprised about how "dark" the Greeks were, she thought (from all the media) that Greeks were of the 'whiter' type. Go figure.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Other than that mosaic, do you have any evidence of this? Again, blonde hair wasn't a common trait in the Balkans and most depictions show him as dark haired. This reminds me, that a friend of mine saw the movie 'My Big Fat Greek Wedding' and was somewhat suprised about how "dark" the Greeks were, she thought (from all the media) that Greeks were of the 'whiter' type. Go figure.
The Macedonians were considered barbarians of the northern lands by the Greeks and were described as such in historical record. The Greeks regarded the Macedonians as a different race of people.
"... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave" - Demosthenes, Third Philippic, 31. The famous words that this Greek orator from Athens used to describe the Macedonian king Philip II, the father of Alexander the Great, prior to Philip’s conquest of Greece.
Original coloring of Alexander's Sarcophagus (In Istanbul). Posts: 32 | Registered: Jul 2007
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Djehuti do you know exaclty WHY greek society was homosexual? is it a white boy thing or what? lol.....
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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^ There are various reasons as to why Greek society had strong homosexual elements. And NO it had nothing to do with them being white, to say such a thing is just racist, and as much so as when some whites compare blacks to homosexuals (which I happen to notice sometimes). One reason had to do with the traditional custom of pedarasty in which young adolescent boys were initiated into manhood involving some kind of sexual relations with an older male mentor. The second main reason has to do with the totalitarian dominance males had in Greek society, to the point where females were inferior and that sexual relations with men were somehow more meaningful than with women.
quote:Originally posted by AlexandertheConqueror: The Macedonians were considered barbarians of the northern lands by the Greeks and were described as such in historical record. The Greeks regarded the Macedonians as a different race of people.
"... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave" - Demosthenes, Third Philippic, 31. The famous words that this Greek orator from Athens used to describe the Macedonian king Philip II, the father of Alexander the Great, prior to Philip’s conquest of Greece.
^ I too am of the opinion that the Macedonians were not Greek, but I hope you know that there is evidence that also suggest the opposite and there are other scholars who think the opposite as well-- that Macedonians were Greeks.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ There are various reasons as to why Greek society had strong homosexual elements. And NO it had nothing to do with them being white, to say such a thing is just racist, and as much so as when some whites compare blacks to homosexuals (which I happen to notice sometimes). One reason had to do with the traditional custom of pedarasty in which young adolescent boys were initiated into manhood involving some kind of sexual relations with an older male mentor. The second main reason has to do with the totalitarian dominance males had in Greek society, to the point where females were inferior and that sexual relations with men were somehow more meaningful than with women.
quote:Originally posted by AlexandertheConqueror: The Macedonians were considered barbarians of the northern lands by the Greeks and were described as such in historical record. The Greeks regarded the Macedonians as a different race of people.
"... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave" - Demosthenes, Third Philippic, 31. The famous words that this Greek orator from Athens used to describe the Macedonian king Philip II, the father of Alexander the Great, prior to Philip’s conquest of Greece.
^ I too am of the opinion that the Macedonians were not Greek, but I hope you know that there is evidence that also suggest the opposite and there are other scholars who think the opposite as well-- that Macedonians were Greeks.
Original coloring of Alexander's Sarcophagus (In Istanbul).
^ Interesting pictures, though non of them show blonde hair. And what are we to make of this portrait of him from the Pompeii mosaic, below?
I believe that mosaic was produced around 200 BC in Greece or possibly in Rome. So of course it would have depicted Alexander with features that reflect the population.
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Seems applicable to the situation in Siwa too.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ There are various reasons as to why Greek society had strong homosexual elements. And NO it had nothing to do with them being white, to say such a thing is just racist, and as much so as when some whites compare blacks to homosexuals (which I happen to notice sometimes). One reason had to do with the traditional custom of pedarasty in which young adolescent boys were initiated into manhood involving some kind of sexual relations with an older male mentor. The second main reason has to do with the totalitarian dominance males had in Greek society, to the point where females were inferior and that sexual relations with men were somehow more meaningful than with women.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Wrong. I learned about it from an Agikuyu ladyfriend, at an intimate moment, who quickly dropped the subject. Kikuyu, Akamba, Masai, and other related ethnies all practiced it.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: As quiet as it's kept a few East African warrior ethnies practiced wartime homosexuality. There was something about staying off of the enemy women during wars and skirmishes.
Of course this wasn't to the same extent of some Hellenes where a boy training to be a soldier had to be his personal trainer's boyfriend as well as shield bearer.
The Azande is the only East African ethny that practices this.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Wrong. I learned about it from an Agikuyu ladyfriend, at an intimate moment, who quickly dropped the subject. Kikuyu, Akamba, Masai, and other related ethnies all practiced it.
Oh sorry. I meant to write: The Azande are the only East African ethny I know of that practiced it. I didn't mean they were the only ones.
But wow, thanks for the info. I am not really surprised. The idea that relations with males makes one more masculine is actually quite common and very ancient indeed.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Wrong. I learned about it from an Agikuyu ladyfriend, at an intimate moment, who quickly dropped the subject. Kikuyu, Akamba, Masai, and other related ethnies all practiced it.
Are those the only ones you know of and do you have any scholarly sources?
-------------------- "Oh the sons of Ethiopia; observe with care; the country called Ethiopia is, first, your mother; second, your throne; third, your wife; fourth, your child; fifth, your grave." - Ras Alula Aba Nega. Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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The point is that such relationships in Africa would hardly include the practice of Western-style pederasty. The reason is that homosexuality--as the disposition of some males to privately feel and seek out physical relations with other males--is abhorred and rejected[in traditional African cultures males and females fulfil their human functions--among others--in the final analysis by their procreativity] by African cultures in general. In fact, the word, for such just does not exist in the languages of Africa.
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She only told me about the ethnies Agikuyu were most likely to war on.
I've not really devoted it to study. What scholarly sources that may have more on it would be in the books I've listed in previous threads here about sexuality in greater Africa.
- Black Eros - Jewel in the Lotus - Cradle of Erotica - Voodoo Eros
quote:Originally posted by Yom:
quote:Wrong. I learned about it from an Agikuyu ladyfriend, at an intimate moment, who quickly dropped the subject. Kikuyu, Akamba, Masai, and other related ethnies all practiced it.
Are those the only ones you know of and do you have any scholarly sources?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: The point is that such relationships in Africa would hardly include the practice of Western-style pederasty. The reason is that homosexuality--as the disposition of some males to privately feel and seek out physical relations with other males--is abhorred and rejected[in traditional African cultures males and females fulfil their human functions--among others--in the final analysis by their procreativity] by African cultures in general. In fact, the word, for such just does not exist in the languages of Africa.
According to Mugabe. Homosexuality is un-African and disgustung. Plus unnatural. Maybe Africa 1 has sometime to say.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Forum in general: And since Africa is vastly majority black why use black African. Asia has blacks, yellows, and whites in its population. Yet, we never hear of Yellow Asia. Rather, we hear East Asia. Nor do we hear of Black Asia. We hear South Asia or southeast Asia. (And aren't certain east and far north Europeans of Yellow Europe while many a south European is a Brown European
It's high time we afford Africa the same courtesy we do Asia and refer to Africans by geographic region not by colour.
Of the indigenous Africans, there are highly -- even overly -- miscegenated ones of the Mediterranean littoral (coastal Africans); then there's the rest of non-coastal peoples (inner Africans) where, in spots, a certain number are mixed too but nowhere near in extent as is the immediate north coast.
quote:Originally posted by AlexandertheConqueror: Was Alexander a Black African? Let discuss his origins...
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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^ I agree with you 100% Takruri, but I believe 'AlexandertheConqueror' was just repeating what others said with the term "black African", plus he is being sarcastic about the fact that his thread is being somewhat hijacked from its original topic.
To AlexandertheConqueror: What about his origins? The guy was Macedonian. As to whether the Macedonians were a seperate people from the Greeks or not is still being debated today and very much politically charged.
However, there is no doubt that Macedonia was the first nation in mainland Europe in recorded history.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Does anyone have more info on exactly why the hypothesis of this been the tomb of Alexander has being laid down & then abandoned?
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quote:The Ancient Greeks [Macedonians] in Afghanistan and Their Probable Descendants Today in Nuristan, Afghanistan and in the Kalash People, Pakistan
By Michael Issigonis
Today, the region called Nuristan is one in a chain of ethnic refuge areas along the Hindu Kush, or the Indian Caucasus, named as such by Alexander the Great, located in northeast Afghanistan.
This is the home of a unique group of mixed European-Indian tribal peoples now called Nuristanis, people of the only Afghanistan province to have resisted Islam for centuries. The British established the "Durand Line" in 1893, a boundary creating the new countries of the British Protectorate (India) and Afghanistan. Nuristan was originally meant to be included in India.
When the Islamic rulers declared war on the Nuristanis, the British provided all necessary weapons to the Afghan army, thus contributing to the annihilation of Nuristanis and their subsequent forced conversion to Islam.
The male survivors were taken as prisoners to Kabul, a city whose ancient Greek name was Kofin, meaning the place were bees accumulate, or the place of honey, or a place rich in food supplies. Here, the men were forced to join the army. The women that survived were taken into the harems.1
After the occupying armies left, the more isolated Nuristanis reverted to their old religions and customs because they did not find in their invaders' qualities worth imitating.
The other Nuristanis who submitted to Islam are such devout Moslems that they were the first citizens of the country to successfully revolt against the Soviet occupation. It is unknown how many of them have joined the Taliban. Alexander the Great
The expedition of Alexander the Great (327-325 B.C.) into what is now Afghanistan has been well documented. He laid the foundations of many cities, some bearing his own name. With the passage of time, some names were changed by newcomers to the area who could not pronounce Greek names. In this way, Kandahar is Alexander's name, Herat is Alexandria Areion, and Ganzhni is Alexandria Gazhaka, among others.
However, Alexander was not the first Greek coming to India. Legends hold that Dionysos, the god of wine, led an expedition into India several thousand years earlier. He and his companions were so amazed at the size of the then unnamed Indus river that he named it the Son of God (In-Dios). He established a settlement at Nyssa (Jalalabad) where he found Mediterranean plants growing such as ivy and grapes, possibly the only place in Asia where these plants grow. According to legends, Dionysus and his companions continued the journey eastwards and it is possible they reached the Yunnan province in China.
In Yunnan today the numerous minorities who are unlike the Chinese in appearance have preserved religion and customs, including wine-making, similar to the customs of the ancient Greeks.2 Indo-Greek Kingdoms
After Alexander, several Greek Kingdoms were created covering most of Afghanistan, Pakistan, and parts of India that lasted for 3 centuries. The inhabitants were called Indo-Greeks. Only one ancient city has been excavated so far and it lies on the shores of the Amu Darya River. The city exhibits temples, a gymnasium, a palace, numerous buildings, and a huge theatre sculpted on the side of a hill with a superb view of the river valley and the tall mountains of what is now Tajikistan across.
These kingdoms ventured into India and expanded as far as the eastern parts of the Indian peninsula. Place names are still preserved today.
However, the legacy of these kingdoms outlasted the kings in culture and art that are still admired.
Greek techniques of stone and metalworking began to be used in India, Greek coins began to appear in the bazaars, and settlements of Greek type were found as urban islands in the sea of Indian native villages. The most important example of Greek influence in India is the upsurge of Buddhist art in Gandhara during the early Christian era, since called the Gandhara Art. This Greco-Indian school of art played a catalytic role in the development of Asian art. By creating the image of Buddha with the features of Apollo and wearing an ancient Greek tunic, the artists established an art religious in its meaning, but naturalistic and humanistic in its forms.
Examples can be admired today in the museums of Taxila, Peshawar, Swat, and Lahore, in the giant Buddha statues that were recently blown apart by the Taliban without a vigorous opposition from the civilized world.
One important piece of ancient art that is still "alive" today is the amazing over-abundance of coins of the Indo-Greek kings which are continually being unearthed by Afghan farmers and provide sometimes their only source of income after they are sold in the bazaars of Pakistan. These coins represent some of the finest coin-making of all time. They depict the kings on one side with some ancient Greek god or goddess on the other.
The abundance of gold supplies from Central Asia for several centuries before the arrival of the Greeks resulted in the minting of numerous coins as well as some enormous coins. In Afghanistan, one can find the largest gold and the largest silver coins ever minted. The silver coins had a diameter of 65 mm.! In some of the coins they incorporated nickel with a technique only known to the Chinese at that time. Precious Stones
Northeastern Afghanistan has been a supplier of precious stones since at least 5,000 B.C., and its ancient name was simply " the vault" or Valaskia. The precious cargo was making its way through the so-called "Silk Route" to ancient Persia, Greece, and Rome, and later to the Byzantines, Europeans and now mostly to the Americans. In fact, the name Kalash is the ancient Greek name for lapis lazuli, possibly the only place on earth where it exists in abundance. The area is also rich in emeralds, rubies, spinel and others that provide a substantial share of the world production even during years of war, when the income from these stones becomes essential for the survival of the Afghan people. The Kalash People
The Kalash people of northwestern Pakistan are unique in their customs and religion. Although surrounded by Moslems in all directions (Pakistan is essentially a Moslem state), they believe in ancient Greek gods and goddessess such as Zeus, Aphrodite, Hestia, and Apollo. Their language is principally a mixture of Sanskrit and Greek. They grow grapes and make wine (an illegal action in an Islamic country) and their diet is rich in fruits, vegetables and nuts. Unlike their neighbors who sit on the ground, they use stools and chairs and their carpentry is decorated with Macedonian stars and "suns".
The Kalash people are virtually the only tourist attraction in Pakistan. However, the Kalash do not depend on tourism for survival; it is quite the opposite. The building of infrastructure to accommodate all those tourist "invaders" has brought an unprecedented pollution that the Kalash did not have to face during the 2000 years of isolation.
Recently, a group of Greek teachers have been raising money and spending their summer vacations among the Kalash for the last 7 years in an attempt to improve their standard of living. Some of the projects that the teacher volunteers have accomplished include the following: a primary school at an elevation of some 3 km, which is regarded the largest primary school building in Pakistan; water pipes for the supply of running water; a house for new mothers; landscaping and providing resource materials and pharmaceutical supplies. In this way the volunteers have contributed immensely to the preservation of the Kalash.
In the 19th century the British officers and scholars in India kept a romantic belief that, like the lost tribes of Israel, also a lost tribe of Europe of Alexander's Greeks may have survived somewhere in Afghanistan. The popular movie entitled "The Man Who Would Be King" starring Sean Connery was based upon that legend. Other Greek Influences
Other remnants of the ancient Greek influence in the area are the characteristic "double-hat" or kausia, the ancient Macedonian hat, the Macedonian cloak or sari as worn by most women today and the polo on horseback, Pakistan's national sport. It was practiced by the Macedonian troops in the days of Alexander due to an unusual "present" given to Alexander by the great Persian king Darius.
When Alexander invaded the outlining areas of the Persian Empire and demanded taxes from Darius, the king refused, so Alexander threatened to invade. The king then sent him a bat with a ball so that the young Alexander can play ! "Those would be more appropriate to a novice than the arms of battle," thought the King. Alexander replied : "The ball is the Earth and I am the bat". A year later, Darius lost the battle and he was dead the following year.
posted
^ The theory that the Nuristanis and Kalasha of Pakistan/Afghanistan are the descendants of Alexander's men is very popular; however it is false!
First of all, there is no archaeological evidence or even historical evidence to suggest that Alexander and his men had strong relations with the said peoples. That they traveled through Afghanistan until they reached the Indus River is a known fact, but there is nothing to suggest that they took the time to stop by and intermingle with the people, especially not to the extent that the whole people could be descendants of the Alexander's army! There is not even evidence to even verify that they had direct contact with Alexander and his men. Alexander and his men were simply explorers who were passing through.
Second, the physical appearance is also too weak to be considered evidence. Not only is blonde hair not a common trait among Macedonians (as has been discussed earlier), but the exact same features of the Nuristani and Kalash people can also be found in rural parts of Afghanistan and even Iran! Unless you want to suggest that the peoples in all those regions are somehow the descendants of Macedonians(?)
Third, the other stuff used as evidence, in particular similarities in dress or culture are all circumstantial and do not really point to Macedonian origins either. The "double-hat" women wear is nothing unique. Women in certain parts of Afghanistan and Iran still wear such hats on special occasions. The type of double-hat worn by Macedonian women is more closely related those worn by Bulgarian women. The cloaks worn by Kalasha women look just like the kafkans worn by Iranian nomads, and the many beaded necklaces match those found in archaeological remains in Afghanistan. The sport of Polo was introduced to Greece and Macedonia from Persia and was likely played long before by Indo-Iranian equestrian nomads. As far as religious beliefs, many point to the fact that the Kalash worship twelve gods which is the same number as the Olympians. The number twelve corresponds to the months of the solar calendar and its associations in religious beliefs are common and widespread among various peoples all around the world. The Kalash worship their twelve gods individually and never collectively like the Greeks. In fact the twelve deities of the Kalash bear closer resemblance to the twelve Aditya gods of Vedic Hindu myth than to any Olympians.
Lastly, some people point to various words who phonologicall and etymologically bear a close resemblance to Greek. The problem is most of those words are also found in Vedic Sanskrit and in Persian Avestan. What few words that are really attributed to Greek can only be explained as loan words during the Hellenistic rule of Bactria and not an inheritance from a Macedonian parent. The Kalash and Nuristani people speak their own form of Indo-Iranian languages closer related to other Indo-Iranian languages of India and Iran. The Indo-Iranian languages are part of Indo-European and not surprisingly share some features with not only Greek but Albanian.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
alTakruri: Did your peculiar spelling of Alexander's name originate in Africa or something? Does it have anything to do with late Ethiopian painter Alexander "Skunder" BOGHOSSIAN's way of nicknaming himself?
Posts: 307 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The theory that the Nuristanis and Kalasha of Pakistan/Afghanistan are the descendants of Alexander's men is very popular; however it is false!
First of all, there is no archaeological evidence or even historical evidence to suggest that Alexander and his men had strong relations with the said peoples. That they traveled through Afghanistan until they reached the Indus River is a known fact, but there is nothing to suggest that they took the time to stop by and intermingle with the people, especially not to the extent that the whole people could be descendants of the Alexander's army! There is not even evidence to even verify that they had direct contact with Alexander and his men. Alexander and his men were simply explorers who were passing through.
Second, the physical appearance is also too weak to be considered evidence. Not only is blonde hair not a common trait among Macedonians (as has been discussed earlier), but the exact same features of the Nuristani and Kalash people can also be found in rural parts of Afghanistan and even Iran! Unless you want to suggest that the peoples in all those regions are somehow the descendants of Macedonians(?)
Third, the other stuff used as evidence, in particular similarities in dress or culture are all circumstantial and do not really point to Macedonian origins either. The "double-hat" women wear is nothing unique. Women in certain parts of Afghanistan and Iran still wear such hats on special occasions. The type of double-hat worn by Macedonian women is more closely related those worn by Bulgarian women. The cloaks worn by Kalasha women look just like the kafkans worn by Iranian nomads, and the many beaded necklaces match those found in archaeological remains in Afghanistan. The sport of Polo was introduced to Greece and Macedonia from Persia and was likely played long before by Indo-Iranian equestrian nomads. As far as religious beliefs, many point to the fact that the Kalash worship twelve gods which is the same number as the Olympians. The number twelve corresponds to the months of the solar calendar and its associations in religious beliefs are common and widespread among various peoples all around the world. The Kalash worship their twelve gods individually and never collectively like the Greeks. In fact the twelve deities of the Kalash bear closer resemblance to the twelve Aditya gods of Vedic Hindu myth than to any Olympians.
Lastly, some people point to various words who phonologicall and etymologically bear a close resemblance to Greek. The problem is most of those words are also found in Vedic Sanskrit and in Persian Avestan. What few words that are really attributed to Greek can only be explained as loan words during the Hellenistic rule of Bactria and not an inheritance from a Macedonian parent. The Kalash and Nuristani people speak their own form of Indo-Iranian languages closer related to other Indo-Iranian languages of India and Iran. The Indo-Iranian languages are part of Indo-European and not surprisingly share some features with not only Greek but Albanian.
Yeah, merely folklore. It's amazing that the legend still lives on.
Posts: 32 | Registered: Jul 2007
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