posted
I was going to bide my time in posting this until I realized it was on Youtube...and they like deleting videos...so I'm posting this now. It's on a program called Digging for the Truth that comes on the History channel, hosted by Josh Bernstein...they talk about alternative history topics (that usually aren't solved by the time the show is over). This program discusses the Lemba Israelites of South Africa. It's 5 parts long too...so it's lengthy. I haven't seen the whole thing yet though.
Au contraire, mon ami! It is just the opposite. The problem is at what stage/timepoint did these group diverge to form their respective present day record.
It seems that one group went south to the present day location of the Lemba, and the rest dispersed north and west. keepin in mind that modern day Israelis are mainly Ashkenazi (Germany at least from the 1500's). What group of people are you referencing when you talk about the Israelites? The Cohanim gene associated with the Lemba are as high as those in Israel but again, the problem of who is the real Isreali is a major problem.
This is a problem symptomatic of present day Israel, to wit, where the European Jews who claim to be Jewish are accepted without a problem but the African ones (Falasha and others) who say they are, ususlly go through the conversion ceremony! and other hoop tribulations! Go figure!
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Well the problem with this question is that there are no such thing as Isrealites in history only in the bible so it is hard to answer. If you are a believer in the Bible it will be difficult for you to accept this.
I am aware that the Lemba have much Cohen in them, but there is no evidence of them ever being in the levant or being from Mesopotamia so maybe thats a good start to their Tom foolery and specious claims to the Bible stories.
Posts: 336 | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:I am aware that the Lemba have much Cohen in them, but there is no evidence of them ever being in the levant or being from Mesopotamia so maybe thats a good start to their Tom foolery and specious claims to the Bible stories
Good point, Based on what you have stated, then the Cohanim gene only implies that both sides are equal in their representation of truth. The fact is that the Israeli side refused to believe the Lemba and that is what caused the scientific inquiry and said results! The sharing of the gene explicitely says to me at one time both groups had occupied the area called Palestine.
Remember that the present group came from Germany after WWII!!
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*: Well the problem with this question is that there are no such thing as Isrealites in history only in the bible so it is hard to answer. If you are a believer in the Bible it will be difficult for you to accept this.
I am aware that the Lemba have much Cohen in them, but there is no evidence of them ever being in the levant or being from Mesopotamia so maybe thats a good start to their Tom foolery and specious claims to the Bible stories.
You're contradicting yourself. The genetic evidence proves they have a relation with those groups in the Levant...what are you talking about. The question you're probably thinking is, "have they always been Black"...I say yes.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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I actually read up on that, pretty intrusting stuff, especially about the Nigerian Jews, I thought pre-colonial, especially southern, Nigeria was pretty isolated from the mediterranean world, at least with regards to religion. Guess I was wrong, lol....... Oh and my opinion on the Lemba? Original Zimbabweans who were knocked up by Jewish merchants Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*: Well the problem with this question is that there are no such thing as Isrealites in history only in the bible so it is hard to answer. If you are a believer in the Bible it will be difficult for you to accept this.
I am aware that the Lemba have much Cohen in them, but there is no evidence of them ever being in the levant or being from Mesopotamia so maybe thats a good start to their Tom foolery and specious claims to the Bible stories.
You're contradicting yourself. The genetic evidence proves they have a relation with those groups in the Levant...what are you talking about. The question you're probably thinking is, "have they always been Black"...I say yes.
No the cohen haplotypes come from Middle eastern arab type people and there is no evidence of the Lemba being in the Levant.
They probably received these genes during Phonecian period and involvement in South Africa and thier gold mines. Remember the Lemba practiced inbreeding for quite a while hence the high frequency of cohen in black South Africans.
Posts: 336 | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18: Oh and my opinion on the Lemba? Original Zimbabweans who were knocked up by Jewish merchants
Yes indeed. Big Pimping, in a medieval sort of way! haha
Vida, You got the era mixed up. Mining in South Africa is a recent event and the Phoenicians, the stuff is off the map! What do Phoenicians have to do with Cohanim unless of course they possess the same gene in Southern Africa!!!!
you said
quote:the cohen haplotypes come from Middle eastern arab type people and there is no evidence of the Lemba being in the Levant
my alternate hypothesis is that the cohanim gene begain in Southern Africa and was transported to the Levant so that explains why it exists there today!
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*: The Lemba are convert Jews that have nothing to do with Isrealites or anything in the Bible
The same could be said of ALL Jews outside of the Levant. Most of the only people who are Israelite by ancestry are now Arabic-speaking Muslims.
Posts: 7083 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
^ Not necessarily true. There are still some Jews in the Middle-East that haven't left the area or converted to Islam. In fact, it reminds me of a genetic study done that was considered "controversial" for simply pointing out the fact that Palestinian Jews and Arabs are so closely related they are actually one people-- despite the animosity that exists between them both.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Are the Lemba original Israelites? Yes,indeed BECAUSE THEY SAY SO, and the history supports what they say. I don't understand why people won't believe what they say. They don't have a reason to lie about who they are. They are not the ones known for stealing identities and faking archeological information. Plus, they have a higher percentage of the Cohen gene than Ashkenazi Jews. Not every group of people are into misleading others with lies.
Posts: 34 | From: Lurkerville | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*:
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*: Well the problem with this question is that there are no such thing as Isrealites in history only in the bible so it is hard to answer. If you are a believer in the Bible it will be difficult for you to accept this.
I am aware that the Lemba have much Cohen in them, but there is no evidence of them ever being in the levant or being from Mesopotamia so maybe thats a good start to their Tom foolery and specious claims to the Bible stories.
You're contradicting yourself. The genetic evidence proves they have a relation with those groups in the Levant...what are you talking about. The question you're probably thinking is, "have they always been Black"...I say yes.
No the cohen haplotypes come from Middle eastern arab type people and there is no evidence of the Lemba being in the Levant.
They probably received these genes during Phonecian period and involvement in South Africa and thier gold mines. Remember the Lemba practiced inbreeding for quite a while hence the high frequency of cohen in black South Africans.
I know the story of the Pheonicians possible circumnavigating Africa...but what evidence is there that they settled for an extended period in South Africa. Besides, Lemba is not a Hebrew word anyway I don't think. Also keep in mind that "Jew" is not a race. And what evidence to you have that the Lemba practiced inbreeding for a time? Would you imply that the Ashkenazi Jews were originally Arab when they also carry the Cohen haplotype?
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18: Oh and my opinion on the Lemba? Original Zimbabweans who were knocked up by Jewish merchants
Yes indeed. Big Pimping, in a medieval sort of way! haha
Vida, You got the era mixed up. Mining in South Africa is a recent event and the Phoenicians, the stuff is off the map! What do Phoenicians have to do with Cohanim unless of course they possess the same gene in Southern Africa!!!!
Indeed.
Certainly, the one's with the J haplotypes in question have a case to make, about their extra-African ancestry, which Vida denies them in this occasion, but likes to look for extra-Africans in ancient Egyptians.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*:
No the cohen haplotypes come from Middle eastern arab type people and there is no evidence of the Lemba being in the Levant.
What did you think the Lemba Buba clan were referring to, if not ancestry from "southwest Asia"? They are talking about their 'ancestry', not themselves.
BTW, can you tell us about how the Lemba came to adopt their "Jewish" traditions.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
This reminded me of the piece they did on the Ark of the covenant in Ethiopia.. Very interesting, definitely something to think about that shouldn't just be simplified and thrown by the way-side..
-------------------- mr.writer.asa@gmail.com Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*:
No the cohen haplotypes come from Middle eastern arab type people and there is no evidence of the Lemba being in the Levant.
What did you think the Lemba Buba clan were referring to, if not ancestry from "southwest Asia"? They are talking about their 'ancestry', not themselves.
BTW, can you tell us about how the Lemba came to adopt their "Jewish" traditions.
Ok, so why don't African Americans CLAIM their Scottish, Welsh and Irish ancestory and then go all the way to say Scotts, Welsh and Irish people are black lol?
The original people with this Cohen weren't black so for Lemba to claim they are from the original Isrealites is rediculous.
But I don't know; African Americans have always loved to claim how "mixed" they are and their non African ancestory so I guess loser negros don't just exist in the Americas and East Africa, but now South Africa too
It is not looking to good for the black race..oops I mean people *sniff*.
Not only that; these people seperate themselves from other AFricans and claim they built everything in southern Africa which is a LIE and they say their noses is different than other Africans and would only mix with Asians and not other blacks. So **** these piece of **** Lembas.
The only reason African Americans even care about these people is because they believe in this silly Bible and want this fake spook God to exist and grant certain people privelages, yet these Lemba are discriminated by the other Jews LMAO go figure. Where is your GOD now!! Posts: 336 | Registered: Apr 2007
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Vida, Are you chemically dependent? Where are you sources for the statements that you made? You just ramble on about nothing and seem to be interested in topics but then go off on a tangent about God-knows-what? DNA doesn't lie. You seem to be a proponent of this White supremacy nonsense thinking that Black people have this innate desire to align themselves somehow with White/lighter-skinned people. As if this is the ultimate form of validation. If you were truly a native Black African, you would have no desire to do this. The Lemba are Hebrews not Jews. Furthermore, if you were truly African, you would know that we are identified by our family groups/tribes (I hate that word). It was never about skin color. Before you post, please THINK about what it is you want to say, noting that sometimes it is better not to say anything at all and just READ. Stop trying to make this very intellectual message board a freak show.
Posts: 34 | From: Lurkerville | Registered: Oct 2006
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1. You need to address what I said and or refute it.
2. I don't understand what you mean about DNA doesn't lie because I never said it did.
3. I am not a native African I am third generation African American, all of my grand parents came to this country in the 40's. I am as American as an African can get and I know African American pseudo culture and history to a TEE. I don't look nor seem any differen't than them for survival purposes and I speak 6 dialects of jive lmao!!!!!!!!!
4. There are not such thing as Hebrews or Isrealites in history.
5. You need to think before you speak "sista guurl"
Posts: 336 | Registered: Apr 2007
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You speak jive indeed!!!! I never said that you said DNA testing was a lie. The reason that I brought up DNA is because there has been genetic testing done to prove/back up what the Lemba say about being Hebrews/Israelites. There is no such thing as Jews in history. Remember the letter 'J' doesn't show up in the Torah. So those groups of people didn't consider themselves 'Jewish'. Did you even watch the video at the beginning of the thread? Until you do, then we can talk.
Posts: 34 | From: Lurkerville | Registered: Oct 2006
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Yes I watched it and I saw how they tried to sabatoge the building that EVERYONE knows the Shona did by themselves.
There are no such thing as Hebrews or Isrealites in history.
Their dna shows that they have middle eastern "cohen" haplotype which is only 15,000 years old and is definetly not of black people.
So at best all they are doing is connecting themsevles to Western Asian/Middle Eastern people...big deal!
Do you African Americans make a big deal about being connected to British peoples other then when purporting to have "good hair" lol?
Posts: 336 | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*:
Do you African Americans make a big deal about being connected to British peoples other then when purporting to have "good hair" lol? [/QB]
No, because African-Americans don't sincerely believe that they were the original British colonists who settled the Americas, you can't turn this on its head and make it a case about the self-esteem of the Lemba. You're simplifying an issue that you have no answers for, only dismissive and hateful rhetoric, with pre-conceived assumptions based on your self-hatred of black people(or just hatred, since there's a good chance that you're not black).. This is why you spend 75% of your time here obsessing over African-Americans(when this site isn't dedicated to A,.A.s), and the other 25% doubting that the Egyptians were Black, which you have recently feigned coming to terms with, but given your psychological instability, you're due to backslide anyways.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:yet these Lemba are discriminated by the other Jews LMAO go figure. Where is your GOD now!!
The Ashkenazi jews discriminate against all Jews who are not Ashkenazi, have you ever heard about the Israeli Black Panthers (Mizrahi)? http://www.marxist.com/MiddleEast/israeli_black_panthers.html And also the Beta israelis are constantly discriminated againt in israel, so for sure they will also discriminate against the Lemba jews.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:3. I am not a native African I am third generation African American, all of my grand parents came to this country in the 40's. I am as American as an African can get and I know African American pseudo culture and history to a TEE. I don't look nor seem any differen't than them for survival purposes and I speak 6 dialects of jive lmao!!!!!!!!!
LMAO the only reason you suddenly say that you're not born in Nigerian is because you know that igbogoddes might ask you something in igbo or yoruba, that's why you have shifted to call yourself a third generation American, lol your busted.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:3. I am not a native African I am third generation African American, all of my grand parents came to this country in the 40's. I am as American as an African can get and I know African American pseudo culture and history to a TEE. I don't look nor seem any differen't than them for survival purposes and I speak 6 dialects of jive lmao!!!!!!!!!
LMAO the only reason you suddenly say that you're not born in Nigerian is because you know that igbogoddes might ask you something in igbo or yoruba, that's why you have shifted to call yourself a third generation American, lol your busted.
I'm not NIgerian I just use them as an example of the true negro phenotype
Posts: 336 | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*:
Do you African Americans make a big deal about being connected to British peoples other then when purporting to have "good hair" lol?
No, because African-Americans don't sincerely believe that they were the original British colonists who settled the Americas, you can't turn this on its head and make it a case about the self-esteem of the Lemba. You're simplifying an issue that you have no answers for, only dismissive and hateful rhetoric, with pre-conceived assumptions based on your self-hatred of black people(or just hatred, since there's a good chance that you're not black).. This is why you spend 75% of your time here obsessing over African-Americans(when this site isn't dedicated to A,.A.s), and the other 25% doubting that the Egyptians were Black, which you have recently feigned coming to terms with, but given your psychological instability, you're due to backslide anyways. [/QB]
Idiot my "deduction" was quite sound. Lemba can't claim being Jews/Isrealites/Hebrews because of their J and J2 haplogroups those haplogroups are not African nor black what part of that do you not understand?!?!?
Here is SELF HATE right here from your beloved Lemba: What is certain is that the Lemba are emphatic about being Jewish. "I love my people," a Lemba woman told Parfitt, "we came from the Israelites, we came from Sena, we crossed the sea . . . We were so beautiful with beautiful long, Jewish noses and so proud of our facial structure .
We no way wanted to spoil our structure by carelessness, eating pig or marrying non-Lemba gentiles
Though non-Lemba women are allowed to marry into the tribe, Lemba men face expulsion if they marry gentiles.
And you call me self hating Mwahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!! Posts: 336 | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
Another example that you don't know what your are talking about, Vida. I have relatives with very light skin to olive complexioned skin(meaning black) with varying facial features. But as I said before, it wasn't about skin color with us until very recently. It was about familial group(tribal) identity/connections. You are a prime example, Vida , that racism is a cancerous tumor bent on poisoning the beauty and diversity that has always been in Africa. Please, do not further spoil this thread with your ignorance. If you have something informative to say about the Lemba, then please do so. If not, please remain silent.
Posts: 34 | From: Lurkerville | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
*sighs* Vida, Again, skin color is not indicative of what family group you are from. There is another good thread on here about the genotype of famous Brazilians. In it, it states this fact. There were dark/black people that genetically had more European in them than African. The Lemba ARE NOT indigenously African. They are Black. And they are Hebrew/Israelite. I just don't see why this concept is so hard for you to understand. Oh, and please don't go into the Brazilian thread with this foolishness.
Posts: 34 | From: Lurkerville | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by igbogoddess: Another example that you don't know what your are talking about, Vida. I have relatives with very light skin to olive complexioned skin(meaning black) with varying facial features. But as I said before, it wasn't about skin color with us until very recently. It was about familial group(tribal) identity/connections. You are a prime example, Vida , that racism is a cancerous tumor bent on poisoning the beauty and diversity that has always been in Africa. Please, do not further spoil this thread with your ignorance. If you have something informative to say about the Lemba, then please do so. If not, please remain silent.
Do you know how to use the quote function? Because I have no idea what you are refering to honestly.
Please use the quote function to respond to direct things that I say.
I DID post things about the Lemba can you read?!?!
Posts: 336 | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
I see this is futile. You can't understand. Why do I need to use the quote button for something that YOU recently said in the post just above mine. Did you forget already? You waste my time with childish babble. I will not be responding to you again. Good day.
Posts: 34 | From: Lurkerville | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by igbogoddess: *sighs* Vida, Again, skin color is not indicative of what family group you are from. There is another good thread on here about the genotype of famous Brazilians. In it, it states this fact. There were dark/black people that genetically had more European in them than African. The Lemba ARE NOT indigenously African. They are Black. And they are Hebrew/Israelite. I just don't see why this concept is so hard for you to understand. Oh, and please don't go into the Brazilian thread with this foolishness.
What does this have to do with skin color?!?!?
The Lembas are not just J and J2 haplogroups they have mostly African haplogroups they are just mixed with this ancestory. Did you think they were ALL J and J2 maybe?
Posts: 336 | Registered: Apr 2007
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What's your view on the claim many of your particular ethny make of being Israel?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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I actually read up on that, pretty intrusting stuff, especially about the Nigerian Jews, I thought pre-colonial, especially southern, Nigeria was pretty isolated from the mediterranean world, at least with regards to religion. Guess I was wrong, lol....... Oh and my opinion on the Lemba? Original Zimbabweans who were knocked up by Jewish merchants
The Yoruba have an origin myth that specifies Mecca, Arabia as the source of one of its tribal founders. So this is another blow to that presumption of subsaharan Africa isolation.
Posts: 74 | From: USA | Registered: Jun 2007
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I believe that they are Hebrew/Israelite. Again, they have no reason to lie. I believe DNA testing will prove what they already know. Do you know of any genetic testing being done on Hebrew (Jewish) Igbo?
Posts: 34 | From: Lurkerville | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*:
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*:
No the cohen haplotypes come from Middle eastern arab type people and there is no evidence of the Lemba being in the Levant.
What did you think the Lemba Buba clan were referring to, if not ancestry from "southwest Asia"? They are talking about their 'ancestry', not themselves.
BTW, can you tell us about how the Lemba came to adopt their "Jewish" traditions.
Ok, so why don't African Americans CLAIM their Scottish, Welsh and Irish ancestory and then go all the way to say Scotts, Welsh and Irish people are black lol?
What African Americans choose or not choose to do, has what bearings on Lemba claims of their heritage, anymore than it has on yourself?
quote:Vidadavida:
The original people with this Cohen weren't black so for Lemba to claim they are from the original Isrealites is rediculous.
And you know this based on...? And even if they weren't "black", how does that illegitimize Lemba ancestry from them?
quote:Vidadavida:
But I don't know; African Americans have always loved to claim how "mixed" they are and their non African ancestory so I guess loser negros don't just exist in the Americas and East Africa, but now South Africa too
In what way does acknowledging their ancestry, make Lemba "losers", any more than you claiming your own ancestry?
quote:Vidadavida:
It is not looking to good for the black race..oops I mean people *sniff*.
Relevancy?
quote:Vidadavida:
Not only that; these people seperate themselves from other AFricans and claim they built everything in southern Africa which is a LIE and they say their noses is different than other Africans and would only mix with Asians and not other blacks. So **** these piece of **** Lembas.
Which Lemba figure did you gather this from; citation with links!
^And even if such claim is made, how does this change the fact of ancestry?
quote:Vidadavida:
The only reason African Americans even care about these people is because they believe in this silly Bible and want this fake spook God to exist and grant certain people privelages, yet these Lemba are discriminated by the other Jews LMAO go figure. Where is your GOD now!!
And how does this answer any of the questions you cited me on?
In fact, not a single part of the question and request you cited has been delivered. You can't be insinuating that the questions were too difficult, or are you?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by igbogoddess: Vida, are you chemically dependent? Where are you sources for the statements that you made? You just ramble on about nothing and seem to be interested in topics but then go off on a tangent about God-knows-what? DNA doesn't lie. You seem to be a proponent of this White supremacy nonsense thinking that Black people have this innate desire to align themselves somehow with White/lighter-skinned people. As if this is the ultimate form of validation. If you were truly a native Black African, you would have no desire to do this. The Lemba are Hebrews not Jews. Furthermore, if you were truly African, you would know that we are identified by our family groups/tribes (I hate that word). It was never about skin color. Before you post, please THINK about what it is you want to say, noting that sometimes it is better not to say anything at all and just READ. Stop trying to make this very intellectual message board a freak show.
Don't forget, the guy even espouses the old "true negro" faux, that even white people don't believe in anymore. A Somali is just as black as a Nigerian.
By the way Yonis, you hit the nail about his admission. LOL To be honest, I don't think the guy is even 'black' from the way he talks. He sounds like one of those white racist losers who visit mootstorm front and try to "make sense" of their racism! Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I actually read up on that, pretty intrusting stuff, especially about the Nigerian Jews, I thought pre-colonial, especially southern, Nigeria was pretty isolated from the mediterranean world, at least with regards to religion. Guess I was wrong, lol....... Oh and my opinion on the Lemba? Original Zimbabweans who were knocked up by Jewish merchants
The Yoruba have an origin myth that specifies Mecca, Arabia as the source of one of its tribal founders. So this is another blow to that presumption of subsaharan Africa isolation.
Yes and that is a Hausa lie because they are brainwashed Muslims. You have to watch out for many traditional African mythos because they have been obfuscated by the evil Jews/Muslims/Christians.
Again the best way to destroy a person is take their spirit and mind away and giving them foreign Gods that do nothing for them and religions and philosophies and destroying their culture by changing their own stories is the best way to kill an African
Slavery and Imperialization or just small potatoes to this unfortunately. Jesus/Yahweh(Hashem)/Allah are the killer of blacks not Europeans/Jews/Arabs.
Posts: 336 | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*:
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*:
No the cohen haplotypes come from Middle eastern arab type people and there is no evidence of the Lemba being in the Levant.
What did you think the Lemba Buba clan were referring to, if not ancestry from "southwest Asia"? They are talking about their 'ancestry', not themselves.
BTW, can you tell us about how the Lemba came to adopt their "Jewish" traditions.
Ok, so why don't African Americans CLAIM their Scottish, Welsh and Irish ancestory and then go all the way to say Scotts, Welsh and Irish people are black lol?
What African Americans choose or not choose to do, has what bearings on Lemba claims of their heritage, anymore than it has on yourself?
quote:Vidadavida:
The original people with this Cohen weren't black so for Lemba to claim they are from the original Isrealites is rediculous.
And you know this based on...? And even if they weren't "black", how does that illegitimize Lemba ancestry from them?
quote:Vidadavida:
But I don't know; African Americans have always loved to claim how "mixed" they are and their non African ancestory so I guess loser negros don't just exist in the Americas and East Africa, but now South Africa too
In what way does acknowledging their ancestry, make Lemba "losers", any more than you claiming your own ancestry?
quote:Vidadavida:
It is not looking to good for the black race..oops I mean people *sniff*.
Relevancy?
quote:Vidadavida:
Not only that; these people seperate themselves from other AFricans and claim they built everything in southern Africa which is a LIE and they say their noses is different than other Africans and would only mix with Asians and not other blacks. So **** these piece of **** Lembas.
Which Lemba figure did you gather this from; citation with links!
^And even if such claim is made, how does this change the fact of ancestry?
quote:Vidadavida:
The only reason African Americans even care about these people is because they believe in this silly Bible and want this fake spook God to exist and grant certain people privelages, yet these Lemba are discriminated by the other Jews LMAO go figure. Where is your GOD now!!
And how does this answer any of the questions you cited me on?
In fact, not a single part of the question and request you cited has been delivered. You can't be insinuating that the questions were too difficult, or are you?
quote:What African Americans choose or not choose to do, has what bearings on Lemba claims of their heritage, anymore than it has on yourself?
You are one of the inteligent ones on this site Mystery so I am surprised that you don't understand this simple deduction and perfect rationale.
If Lemba say they are so cool because they have Hebrew/Western Asian ancestory and this is supposed to mean something; then why aren't African Americans claiming to be descendants from British royalty? And if they did, would they be taken as seriously just because the WHOLE world is miffed by this Israel and Isrealite myth and Bible bullshiit?
quote:And you know this based on...? And even if they weren't "black", how does that illegitimize Lemba ancestry from them?
This site has already gone through the fact that J and J2 aren't African or Tropically Adapted or black whatever you want to call it lol haplogroups. I never said it illegitimizes their ancestory because their ancestory is factual. The ASSOCIATION is what is hogwash because the Lemba are mostly African and black and these so called Israelites arne't.
quote:In what way does acknowledging their ancestry, make Lemba "losers", any more than you claiming your own ancestry?
Why would someone claim ancestory that doesn't make up most of their DNA?!?! Especially when these ancestors didn't like the ethnic group that they are currently today. I know this HAS to be a rhetorical question considering you and other always talk about the travesty of rape by oppressors Mystery, but I will "play" along ho hum.
It is not looking to good for the black race..oops I mean people *sniff*. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Relevancy?
Self hatred like the Lembas are excersicing is never a good sign for black progress.
quote:Which Lemba figure did you gather this from; citation with links!
^And even if such claim is made, how does this change the fact of ancestry?
Here is SELF HATE right here from your beloved Lemba: What is certain is that the Lemba are emphatic about being Jewish. "I love my people," a Lemba woman told Parfitt, "we came from the Israelites, we came from Sena, we crossed the sea . . . We were so beautiful with beautiful long, Jewish noses and so proud of our facial structure .
We no way wanted to spoil our structure by carelessness, eating pig or marrying non-Lemba gentiles
Though non-Lemba women are allowed to marry into the tribe, Lemba men face expulsion if they marry gentiles.
It doesn't change their ancestory and never said it did.
quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by igbogoddess: *sighs* Vida,
The Lemba ARE NOT indigenously African. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, they are.
^^^Thank you...this dumb muddacunt is trying to debate me and doesn't know what the hell she is talking about. She thinks the Lemba are ALL J and J2 on their paternal site and just HAPPENED to turn black because they live in Africa lmao!!!!!!!!
quote: And how does this answer any of the questions you cited me on?
In fact, not a single part of the question and request you cited has been delivered. You can't be insinuating that the questions were too difficult, or are you?
I know that they have Western Asian ancestory and by asking how they have Jewish heritage..hell the same way Africans have Christian and Muslim rituals/custumes.
Now what I don't understand is this Mystery; if the people on this board get so mad when people say East and north and northeast Africans are mixed, then why are you so animate about the proving the Lemba to being mixed? I don't get you people Posts: 336 | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
The Lemba are indigenously Black Africans and their not Jews. These people are being played and they have no idea what they're in for. This is what happen when there is little or lack of defensive intellectual tribal elites who challenge outside perceptions and classification of their tribe(s). It's really quite sad.
This is maybe not the best example, but the most important point is this:
"A geneticist from Oxford University in London, England (1998) has proven through a DNA sequence that the African Bantu-speaking Lemba Tribe of South Africa and Zimbabwe carry the same Y chromosome that is distinctive to the Cohanim, a hereditary set of Jewish priests scattered throughout Europe and America. Reports carry the headlines “DNA COULD PROVE JEWISH ANCESTRY OF AFRICAN TRIBE.” While reading the article, it struck me as a “Freudian Slip” presented in the “European Slip/Slap Origin.” The title should have read: DNA PROVES AFRICAN ANCESTRY OF BIBLICAL HEBREWS. The most thorough analysis yet of the divergence of sequences in human mitochondrial DNA has been carried out. The results support the view that modern humans originated in Africa. (Hedges, Blair S. “Human Evolution: A Start for Population Genomics,” Nature 408, 652-653 7 December 2000)."
You can't prove anything I said wrong, but I told you in another thread stop responding to my posts and I wont to yours so there will be peace.
No they have it right dude it is "dna evidence prove Jewish Ancestry of African Tribe"
There are no historical hebrews or Israelites and Africa has nothing to do with these people's in the Biblical context.
Posts: 336 | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
You are correct, Kemson. The Lemba are not Jews. They are Hebrew/Israelite. When I said that the Lemba were not indigenously African, I meant that they originated in what is now known as the Middle East (which geographically is Africa) *shrugs*. So I guess it would be more correct to say that the Hebrews/Israelites are of African descent. Maybe this information is what the Jews are trying to squelch. Yes?
Posts: 34 | From: Lurkerville | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
^^^wrong again!!!!!!! You don't get it the Lemba ARE AFRICANS mixed WITH A WESTERN ASIAN LINEAGE!!!!
Posts: 336 | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*:
You are one of the inteligent ones on this site Mystery so I am surprised that you don't understand this simple deduction and perfect rationale.
I'm amazed that you can't answer elementary questions. What you call 'simple & perfect rationale' is akin to someone asking you for the answer of 2+2, only to have you come up with "African Americans do this or that" for an answer. You tell me; what gives?
quote:Vidadavida:
If Lemba say they are so cool because they have Hebrew/Western Asian ancestory and this is supposed to mean something..
Even if true, how does this affect the facts about extra-African ancestry in them?
quote:Vidadavida:
then why aren't African Americans claiming to be descendants from British royalty?
What specifically does African Americans have anything to do with the issue at hand; does African American claims on ancestry have any bearing on whom you claim as your ancestors?
quote:Vidadavida:
And if they did, would they be taken as seriously just because the WHOLE world is miffed by this Israel and Isrealite myth and Bible bullshiit?
See question above; try hard not to fall short on relevant answers again.
And...
Are you denying extra-African ancestry in the Lemba Buba clan? If not, then what is your point?
quote:Vidadavida:
quote:Mystery Solver:
And you know this based on...? And even if they weren't "black", how does that illegitimize Lemba ancestry from them?
This site has already gone through the fact that J and J2 aren't African or Tropically Adapted or black whatever you want to call it lol haplogroups.
Citations?
quote:Vidadavida:
I never said it illegitimizes their ancestory because their ancestory is factual. The ASSOCIATION is what is hogwash because the Lemba are mostly African and black and these so called Israelites arne't.
Well, if "ancestry" doesn't associate them with the region that they proclaim their ancestors came from, then what does it represent? See post above, concerning this "black" issue.
quote:Vidadavida:
quote:In what way does acknowledging their ancestry, make Lemba "losers", any more than you claiming your own ancestry?
Why would someone claim ancestory that doesn't make up most of their DNA?!?!
What specifically makes up most of their DNA? And why shouldn't they claim ancestry that does exist?
quote:Vidadavida:
Especially when these ancestors didn't like the ethnic group that they are currently today.
Objective documentations? And even if so, again, how does this affect the facts about extra-African ancestry in them?
quote:Vidadavida:
I know this HAS to be a rhetorical question considering you and other always talk about the travesty of rape by oppressors Mystery, but I will "play" along ho hum.
If you think this is game, then it doesn't seem that you are up to speed yet.
quote:Vidadavida:
Self hatred like the Lembas are excersicing is never a good sign for black progress.
How does the facts about extra-African ancestry in them, show self-hatred?
Here is SELF HATE right here from your beloved Lemba: What is certain is that the Lemba are emphatic about being Jewish. "I love my people," a Lemba woman told Parfitt, "we came from the Israelites, we came from Sena, we crossed the sea . . . We were so beautiful with beautiful long, Jewish noses and so proud of our facial structure .
We no way wanted to spoil our structure by carelessness, eating pig or marrying non-Lemba gentiles
Though non-Lemba women are allowed to marry into the tribe, Lemba men face expulsion if they marry gentiles.
It doesn't change their ancestory and never said it did.
Presuming that the above is true, let's come back to the question that followed:
^And even if such claim is made, how does this change the fact of ancestry?
quote:Vidadavida:
quote: And how does this answer any of the questions you cited me on?
In fact, not a single part of the question and request you cited has been delivered. You can't be insinuating that the questions were too difficult, or are you?
I know that they have Western Asian ancestory and by asking how they have Jewish heritage..hell the same way Africans have Christian and Muslim rituals/custumes.
This "same way" would be how specifically, considering that you proclaimed that the Cohen modal haplotypes in the Lemba males were of "Phoenician" extraction?
quote:Vidadavida:
Now what I don't understand is this Mystery; if the people on this board get so mad when people say East and north and northeast Africans are mixed,
Based on what citations and context? And if so, what does that have to do with me?
quote:Vidadavida:
then why are you so animate about the proving the Lemba to being mixed? I don't get you people
Actually, I'm trying to figure out your hypocrisy in approaching Lemba vs. the Nile Valley, whereby you often choose to see extra-African ancestry in the Nile Valley inhabitants, and yet, deny it in the Lemba. The ball is actually on your court, if you know what I mean , to explain yourself.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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You are correct, Kemson. The Lemba are not Jews. They are Hebrew/Israelite.
As far as being 'Jewish', I guess that would be open to interpretation in the Jewish ideology of what constitutes 'Jewish ancestry', and if the Cohen modal haplotype falls into this, then I guess that would make them Jewish by default. Then, there is also the question of the Jewish faith; as far as I know, the sort of faith practiced by the Lemba, is actually indigenous in character, even though it does bear some similarities with Judaism. So, this may or may not be seen as Judaism proper, particularly by 'orthodox' Jewish followers. Naturally, the similarities would likely have come from contact with people who practiced Jewish faith, and fused with indigenous traditions.
It is essentially a misnomer by outsiders to assume that many Africans passively adopted foreign derivatives of religious faith; for instance, there is ignorance of the fact [by outsiders] that there are many west African groups whom while practicing 'Islam', do so in the form, whereby the basic religion had been fused with local & indigenous traditions not known anywhere else.
quote:Originally posted by igbogoddess:
When I said that the Lemba were not indigenously African, I meant that they originated in what is now known as the Middle East (which geographically is Africa) *shrugs*. So I guess it would be more correct to say that the Hebrews/Israelites are of African descent. Maybe this information is what the Jews are trying to squelch. Yes?
I agree, precisely speaking, that much of what is referred to as "Middle East", is actually a geographical extension of the African continent, which would really make the so-called "southwest Asians" Africans. Indeed, the area shares much else with Africans, in terms of MRCAs, language families, and aspects of culture. This is why I'm trying to get myself into the habbit of putting the terms 'southwest Asia' in quotation marks, as it pertains to "Middle Easterners" of the Great Rift Valley, in association with the term 'extra-African' in quotation marks as well, in the event that I use it for easy understanding by those who are yet to be acquainted with the geographical reality, as opposed to subjective geopolitics.
quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*:
^^^wrong again!!!!!!! You don't get it the Lemba ARE AFRICANS mixed WITH A WESTERN ASIAN LINEAGE!!!!
Would you say the same for just about any other 'indigenous' African social groups who bear some lineages deemed "extra-African", i.e. as being first and foremost, "indigenous Africans", including Egyptians?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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I don't know of any DNA tests on Igbo. In any event DNA is not evidence of "Jewishness" to rabbinical legal decisors.
For instance, most population geneticists posit the Beta Israel aren't "Mid-Easterners." Yet the former Chief Sepharade Rabbi Obadia Yossef ruled back in 1973 that not only are the Ethiopian Jews in fact Jews, but by examination of Hebrew holy writ and later Jewish writings, they are predominantly of the seed of the Tribe of Dan.
quote: "I have therefore reached the conclusion that the Falashas are descendants of Israelite tribes which migrated southward to Ethiopia. The aforementioned authorities who determined that they are of the Tribe of Dan undoubtedly investigated the matter thoroughly and came to this conclusion according to the most reliable testimony and evidence."
The "aforementioned authorities" include
Rabbi Ya`aqob Castro "... the Abyssinian Jews ... are of the tribe of Dan ..." .
Rabbi Dawiyd ben-Zimra of Egypt "... she was Jewish, a member of the tribe of Dan ..." "... among the kings of Kush, where there are three kingdoms ... one of Israelites of the tribe of Dan." "... the Kushites are undoubtedly of the tribe of Dan." .
Rabbi Obadyah of Bertinoro of Italy "They are somewhat black... They claim descent from the tribe of Dan...". .
Rabbi Eliyahu of Ferrara Italy .
Rabban Simhha .
Rabban Yisshaq ben Mar .
haGaon Rabbi Zemahh .
Karaite Rabbi Y*hudah haDassi .
Rabbi Y*hudah ben Qorash .
Rabbi Hhisdai ibn Shapruth
In the case of the Igbo, I know of one Igbo man who's made aliyah and is recognized as a member of the Tribes of Israel by the Libyan Jewish community in the state of Israel among whom he has affiliated.
I find it unfortunate that the masses of Igbo who claim Hebrew descent, and also other inner African peoples who are either of Israel or who have within the last hundred years chosen to profess Judaism, are acquiring Ashkenazi Judaism instead of relying on the Sepharadiym who have always recognized their Jewishness and are geographically, physically, culturally, and otherwise more closely related to them.
quote:Originally posted by igbogoddess: alTukruri,
I believe that they are Hebrew/Israelite. Again, they have no reason to lie. I believe DNA testing will prove what they already know. Do you know of any genetic testing being done on Hebrew (Jewish) Igbo?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Such ignorance. *sigh* ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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, to explain yourself.
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