I will soon be web-publishing a page on Califia, the African Queen that myth holds California was named after. I expect the page to get a lot of criticism and ridicule. Please express your candid feelings about this subject as that will help understand how to better design the page. If anyone has useful insights to make, that is welcome as well.
Anything to say?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Marc Washington: African Queen Califia from whom California was named: fact or fiction?
Of course practically everything that comes from you, Marc, is FICTION!
California being named after an African queen?! LOL Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by Marc Washington: If anyone has useful insights to make, that is welcome as well.
The Many Images of Queen Califia aka Queen Califa
The Spirit of California, Califia, depicted in a mural on the show building of the Golden Dreams attraction at Disney's California Adventure.
More about Queen Califia
Califia's life and land "at the right hand of the Indies" were described in a novel written about 1510, by Garcia Ordonez Rodriguez de Montalvo, a Spanish writer, and was entitled "Las Serges des Esplandian". "It is known that to the right of the Indies there exists an island called California very near the terrestrial paradise; and peopled by black women among whom there was not a single man since they lived in the way of the Amazons. They had beautiful robust bodies, spirited courage and great strength. Their island was the most impregnable in the world with its cliffs and headlands and rocky coasts. Their weapons were all of gold . . . because in all the island there was no metal except gold. And there ruled over that island of California a queen of majestic proportions, more beautiful than all others, and in the very vigor of her womanhood. She was not petite, nor blond, nor golden-haired. She was large, and black as the ace of clubs. But the prejudice of color did not then exist even among the most brazen-faced or the most copper-headed. For, as you shall learn, she was reputed the most beautiful of women; and it was she, O Californias! who accomplished great deeds, she was valiant and courageous and ardent with a brave heart, and had ambitions to execute nobler actions than had been performed by any other ruler — Queen Califa."
To some extent, this document helped to precipitate the Spanish hunt for gold in North America. In fact, thirty years later, when the explorer Cortes landed with his crew in what is known today as Baja California, it is said that he announced to his men (of which 300 were of African descent) that they had arrived in Califia's land. By 1770, the entire Pacific coast controlled by Spain had been given the name California, and the Spanish speaking people who lived there were called Californios. A portion of the original of this document was translated by Edward Everett Hale for The Antiquarian Society, and the story was printed in the Atlantic Monthly magazine in 1864. [The Queen of California, by E. E. Hale: pp. 265-279].
The best known depictions of Queen Califia are murals done by well known artists. One seven foot high panel showing Califia as a Black woman with her Amazons is in The Room of the Dons at the Mark Hopkins Intercontinental Hotel in San Francisco, and was created for the opening of the hotel in 1926, by Maynard Dixon and Frank Von Sloun.
Mark Hopkins Intercontinental Hotel Mural
Another famous depiction, created by Louise Lloyd and entitled "The Naming of California", can be seen in Sacramento in the Senate Rules Committee Hearing Chamber on the 4th floor of the State Building.
Sacramento State Capital Mural
State of California Museum Archive at the State Building
Also circulating at the time was a fifteenth century Spanish romance in five volumes entitled Amadis de Gaula by Garcia Ordonez de Montalvo. The first four volumes were a translation of an older Portuguese romance. The fifth volume was a sequel by Montalvo entitled Las Sergas del muy esforzado caballero Esplandian, hijo del excelente rey Amadis de Gaula. (The exploits of the very powerful cavalier Esplandian, son of the excellent king Amadis de Gaula. The subject of Montalvo's work was the conflict between Christian and Moslem in the Crusades. The first four volumes were respected, but the fifth was not well received by the critics of the time. Cervantes, in Don Quiote, had his hero keep the first four books in his library but burn the fifth.) Esplandian's adventures took him to an island called California ruled by a beautiful black Amazon Queen named Califia. California fit the myths then circulating in all respects. It had gold in plenty, free-loving amazons living in caves, strange beasts, and was very difficult to reach.
Queen Califia, by Arthur Wright
By Artist Susan Shelton
Strange Map of California as an island, circa 1650
The Island of California refers to a long-held European misconception, dating from the 16th century, that California was not part of mainland North America but rather a large island separated from the continent by the Gulf of California. It is probable that this description prompted early explorers to misidentify the peninsula of Baja California as the island in these legends.
.
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
^Interesting.
Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
Myra. The pictures are mesmerizing. Would you happen to have any information about this one from, you note, a California museum?
Kind thanks,
Marc
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Date: 2004 Artist: Susan Shelton and Donna Billick
Califía- Queen of the mythical island of California possibly inspired the name California.
Hi Myra. Honestly, I'm a little sad as I'd held my breath hoping it was some hundreds of years old and a find from the California area. I have faith, though, that if Califia were real that these could be something hidden away in a private collection where there is some obscure mention and a photo buried in some art book on pre-colonial America somewhere. There are countless works in private collections and some I've seen in public libraries of pre-colonial art. I'll be leaving in a few hours and won't get back until the end of next week. But, if there is anybody in this whole world who'd either have or be able to find such a picture, I know it is Myra Winsinger and no one else. Please be so kind as to keep your eyes open for such an obscure, hidden piece. And thanks again for the mesmerizing pictures.
My take on the situation of Califia is that whether she is real or not, she could have been.
Could have been because there is so much black presence in paleolithic, neolithic, and precolonial North America and Siberia.
1) The human remains shown on the Pacific Coast are African.
2) Above them in Alaska and Siberia, the scultptures and pictures of actual Eskimoes and so-called indians and so are African.
BOATS: There are three types of boats found in both Africa and elsewhere: Elsewhere being Greenland where the high prow and big central figure is standing in a plank boat and the golden picture of a boat from Alaska of Neolithic times also plank.
In Polynesia, the log boats, dug out canoes were so abundant and there is an established archeological record showing movement from Polynesia into South and Mesoamerica.
That and other things. So, whether she is historical or not that along with the next point
GOLD: the four gold African figurine show that there was gold in the area and the California gold rush of 49 shows gold was there so for Cortes to have been attracted there because of so0-called gold legends is completely feasible.
All of these things together make it entirely possible that there was indeed an Califia.
If you, madame, could find that silver bullet, the smoking gun, an authentic sculpture of her, that would be magnificent.
Respectfully,
Marc W
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Marc Washington: African Queen Califia from whom California was named: fact or fiction?
Of course practically everything that comes from you, Marc, is FICTION!
California being named after an African queen?! LOL
No, he's right. It's a pretty well-known rumor...though disputed.
quote:Originally posted by Marc Washington: Hi Myra. Honestly, I'm a little sad as I'd held my breath hoping it was some hundreds of years old and a find from the California area. I have faith, though, that if Califia were real that these could be something hidden away in a private collection where there is some obscure mention and a photo buried in some art book on pre-colonial America somewhere. There are countless works in private collections and some I've seen in public libraries of pre-colonial art. I'll be leaving in a few hours and won't get back until the end of next week. But, if there is anybody in this whole world who'd either have or be able to find such a picture, I know it is Myra Winsinger and no one else. Please be so kind as to keep your eyes open for such an obscure, hidden piece. And thanks again for the mesmerizing pictures.
My take on the situation of Califia is that whether she is real or not, she could have been.
Could have been because there is so much black presence in paleolithic, neolithic, and precolonial North America and Siberia.
1) The human remains shown on the Pacific Coast are African.
2) Above them in Alaska and Siberia, the scultptures and pictures of actual Eskimoes and so-called indians and so are African.
BOATS: There are three types of boats found in both Africa and elsewhere: Elsewhere being Greenland where the high prow and big central figure is standing in a plank boat and the golden picture of a boat from Alaska of Neolithic times also plank.
In Polynesia, the log boats, dug out canoes were so abundant and there is an established archeological record showing movement from Polynesia into South and Mesoamerica.
That and other things. So, whether she is historical or not that along with the next point
GOLD: the four gold African figurine show that there was gold in the area and the California gold rush of 49 shows gold was there so for Cortes to have been attracted there because of so0-called gold legends is completely feasible.
All of these things together make it entirely possible that there was indeed an Califia.
If you, madame, could find that silver bullet, the smoking gun, an authentic sculpture of her, that would be magnificent.
Respectfully,
Marc W
I wouldn't put too much faith into her being real. It was just a myth derived from a Medieval romance...pure fiction. But that didn't stop Cortez though. Funny thing is, you won't find this on any California state site.
Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
I don't know if we can say she was real or not. There always remains the chance a real figurine, dated and authenticated will arise in the future. We can't know about her historicity, I believe. One thing to reflect on, though, is that the Moors were looked upon as royalty and were entertained as honored guests one can read at one time. Califia would be in such a category - a type of Naomi Campbell as queen: deferred to, gold laden, powerful, free, the desire of men, and the subject of enduring literature.
Myra. I used one of your pictures for the time being as the cover of the page. Thanks for making it available.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Since Myra posted some info on this, I am less skeptical. Actually, now that I think of it I believe Mystery or someone else may have cited some info this in one of the threads about Luzia (the earliest known human remains in the Americas). I believe it was about a discussion about how the Paleo-Americans were a tropically adapted (black) people. I think that it was not so much California itself but an island called Baja or something.
The question is how real is the legend of Califa, and is she and the other natives based on these Paleo-American people.
Of course Marc is wrong as usual to call her an "African queen" since she was NOT a ruler in Africa!
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I think that it was not so much California itself but an island called Baja or something.
The question is how real is the legend of Califa, and is she and the other natives based on these Paleo-American people.
It's not an island. Baja California is connected. California's southern border is San Diego, California.
.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: Funny thing is, you won't find this on any California state site.
myra and marc, do you have any authentic info on black californians or is this a myth also. i have seen garifunas on wiki but i have also seen the claims of the yamasee and washita nations. do you know if these are recognized groups or not
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Since Myra posted some info on this, I am less skeptical. Actually, now that I think of it I believe Mystery or someone else may have cited some info this in one of the threads about Luzia (the earliest known human remains in the Americas). I believe it was about a discussion about how the Paleo-Americans were a tropically adapted (black) people. I think that it was not so much California itself but an island called Baja or something.
The question is how real is the legend of Califa, and is she and the other natives based on these Paleo-American people.
Of course Marc is wrong as usual to call her an "African queen" since she was NOT a ruler in Africa!
I don't think so. From what I've read the origin of the tale has nothing at all to even do with the Americas (seeing as how the story was published in Seville in 1510). Though, since Columbus did "discover" the Caribbean in 1492, I guess you could frame an argument around the story being inspired by the then recent events. It's also too possible that the story was inspired by the recent collective memory of the Moors in Spain (who had recently been expelled for good).
Whatever the case, Cortez took the story pretty literally...and actively searched it out. Whether or not there were Blacks in California...which is why he named the state after Queen Califia is up for debate. All I know is, I don't take the story literally at all.
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger:
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: Funny thing is, you won't find this on any California state site.
I stand corrected...it was pretty vague though.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Cave Paintings of Baja California
Radiocarbon dating suggests that most sites flourished between 1500 and 500 years ago, though there is evidence of human presence in the area as early as 9000 B.C.E. [Source]
Publicized by Erle Stanley Gardner in 1962, Cueva de Pintada has 500 feet of walls, most of which are painted. Figures in the foreground, photographer Harry W. Crosby and Tacho Arce, provide scale for the images on the rock-shelter's south panel.
Although the California Indians have been asked the meanings of the paintings, rays, and characters they could not attain any satisfactory reason. The most that has been found out is that [the paintings] are of their ancestors and that those of today are completely ignorant of the meaning. (trans. by C. Meighan in American Antiquity) [Source]
Only four human figures with black face patches are known. This one, from El Cajón del Valle, has exceptionally well preserved colors.
Sierra de San Francisco Burro Adventure. Cueva de Pintada, Baja California [Source]
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: Cave Paintings of Baja California
Radiocarbon dating suggests that most sites flourished between 1500 and 500 years ago, though there is evidence of human presence in the area as early as 9000 B.C.E. [Source]
Publicized by Erle Stanley Gardner in 1962, Cueva de Pintada has 500 feet of walls, most of which are painted. Figures in the foreground, photographer Harry W. Crosby and Tacho Arce, provide scale for the images on the rock-shelter's south panel.
Although the California Indians have been asked the meanings of the paintings, rays, and characters they could not attain any satisfactory reason. The most that has been found out is that [the paintings] are of their ancestors and that those of today are completely ignorant of the meaning. (trans. by C. Meighan in American Antiquity) [Source]
Only four human figures with black face patches are known. This one, from El Cajón del Valle, has exceptionally well preserved colors.
Sierra de San Francisco Burro Adventure. Cueva de Pintada, Baja California [Source]
It doesn't surpise me they don't have a clue what it means...given it was 7,500 years ago. When did the Native Americans cross the Bering Steit again...and settle into the Americas?
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: When did the Native Americans cross the Bering Steit again . . . and settle into the Americas?
Since the 1930s, archaeologists generally believed North America was settled by hunters following large game over the land bridge about 13,000 years ago.
"That had been repeated so many times in textbooks and lectures it became part of the common lore," said Dennis Stanford, curator of archeology at the Smithsonian Institution. "People forgot it was only an unproven hypothesis."
Modern humans, or homo sapiens, most likely emerged between 60,000 and 80,000 years ago in Africa. They quickly fanned out to Australia and Central Asia about 50,000 years ago and arrived in Europe only about 40,000 years ago. Ancestral humans -- hominids like australopithecines and Neanderthals -- have never been found in the New World.
UPDATE:
Archaeologists put humans in North America 50,000 years ago. Archaeologists say a site in South Carolina may rewrite the history of how the Americas were settled by pushing back the date of human settlement thousands of years.
But their interpretation is already igniting controversy among scientists. [Source]
.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Who Were The First Americans? Stefan Lovgren for National Geographic News
September 3, 2003
A study of skulls excavated from the tip of Baja California in Mexico suggests that the first Americans may not have been the ancestors of today's Amerindians, but another people who came from Southeast Asia and the southern Pacific area.
The late skulls found in Baja California are similar to Luzia and the Paleoamerican skulls found in South America. Their craniums are characterized by long and narrow vaults, with faces short and low in relation to the neurocranium. [Source]
.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Cave paintings, especially ones you posted are obviously meant to be symbolic and not very realistic. How does this prove the people were black? Also, again I ask how true is the legend of Califa? Is it based on some historical reality? I doubt if California was inhabited by blacks, they were somehow recent African migrants. Did these people represent Paleo-Americans?
By the way, Hawaians have legends of aboriginal black peoples who inhabited their islands as well as others throughout the Pacific.
Posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh* (Member # 13372) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Cave paintings, especially ones you posted are obviously meant to be symbolic and not very realistic. How does this prove the people were black? Also, again I ask how true is the legend of Califa? Is it based on some historical reality? I doubt if California was inhabited by blacks, they were somehow recent African migrants. Did these people represent Paleo-Americans?
By the way, Hawaians have legends of aboriginal black peoples who inhabited their islands as well as others throughout the Pacific.
Where did you hear or see that Hawaiians have stories of aboriginal blacks? Do you have a source?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
It is an old Hawaiian legend.
Posted by hitchcock (Member # 13780) on :
quote:Originally posted by abdulkarem3: myra and marc, do you have any authentic info on black californians or is this a myth also. i have seen garifunas on wiki but i have also seen the claims of the yamasee and washita nations. do you know if these are recognized groups or not
Its a myth as far as califia and the amazon women of california are concerned. Cortez got the name and the story from a romance novel.
As for the yamasee, they were once actually a tribe in the US but were pretty much wiped out or absorbed by others in the 1600s or 1700s. The yamasee you hear about today are african americans who call the themselves the nuwabians. They are a cult like group.
The washitaw, they are probably best described as a cult group but better described as con artists. They have no ancient american ancestors and they exist primarily to scam african americans out of their money selling them books videotapes etc.
Do some google searches on the washitaw. I cant believe even the most gullible of people would fall for their tripe.
Posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh* (Member # 13372) on :
So there were no blacks in the new world before Columbus? Yes or NO?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Last time I checked, anthropologists claimed YES:
quote:Originally posted by abdulkarem3: myra and marc, do you have any authentic info on black californians or is this a myth also. i have seen garifunas on wiki but i have also seen the claims of the yamasee and washita nations. do you know if these are recognized groups or not
Its a myth as far as califia and the amazon women of california are concerned. Cortez got the name and the story from a romance novel.
As for the yamasee, they were once actually a tribe in the US but were pretty much wiped out or absorbed by others in the 1600s or 1700s. The yamasee you hear about today are african americans who call the themselves the nuwabians. They are a cult like group.
The washitaw, they are probably best described as a cult group but better described as con artists. They have no ancient american ancestors and they exist primarily to scam african americans out of their money selling them books videotapes etc.
Do some google searches on the washitaw. I cant believe even the most gullible of people would fall for their tripe.
The American Government don't think they are con artist. The Wichita's was actually given land by the American government that was taken from them during the American expansion process. Look it up!
They are real and they are just as much as American ancestor as the Native Americans that were wiped out. Most people have a problem with the fact that there were black people in America prior to European invasions; but there was!
I'm not calling the Wichita's Africans or even natives of and ancient African voyage but I can say they are black.
Posted by hitchcock (Member # 13780) on :
quote:Originally posted by Khepra:
quote:Originally posted by hitchcock:
quote:Originally posted by abdulkarem3: myra and marc, do you have any authentic info on black californians or is this a myth also. i have seen garifunas on wiki but i have also seen the claims of the yamasee and washita nations. do you know if these are recognized groups or not
Its a myth as far as califia and the amazon women of california are concerned. Cortez got the name and the story from a romance novel.
As for the yamasee, they were once actually a tribe in the US but were pretty much wiped out or absorbed by others in the 1600s or 1700s. The yamasee you hear about today are african americans who call the themselves the nuwabians. They are a cult like group.
The washitaw, they are probably best described as a cult group but better described as con artists. They have no ancient american ancestors and they exist primarily to scam african americans out of their money selling them books videotapes etc.
Do some google searches on the washitaw. I cant believe even the most gullible of people would fall for their tripe.
The American Government don't think they are con artist. The Wichita's was actually given land by the American government that was taken from them during the American expansion process. Look it up!
They are real and they are just as much as American ancestor as the Native Americans that were wiped out. Most people have a problem with the fact that there were black people in America prior to European invasions; but there was!
I'm not calling the Wichita's Africans or even natives of and ancient African voyage but I can say they are black.
They are con artists. They have never been granted any land.
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by hitchcock:
quote:Originally posted by Khepra:
quote:Originally posted by hitchcock:
quote:Originally posted by abdulkarem3: myra and marc, do you have any authentic info on black californians or is this a myth also. i have seen garifunas on wiki but i have also seen the claims of the yamasee and washita nations. do you know if these are recognized groups or not
Its a myth as far as califia and the amazon women of california are concerned. Cortez got the name and the story from a romance novel.
As for the yamasee, they were once actually a tribe in the US but were pretty much wiped out or absorbed by others in the 1600s or 1700s. The yamasee you hear about today are african americans who call the themselves the nuwabians. They are a cult like group.
The washitaw, they are probably best described as a cult group but better described as con artists. They have no ancient american ancestors and they exist primarily to scam african americans out of their money selling them books videotapes etc.
Do some google searches on the washitaw. I cant believe even the most gullible of people would fall for their tripe.
The American Government don't think they are con artist. The Wichita's was actually given land by the American government that was taken from them during the American expansion process. Look it up!
They are real and they are just as much as American ancestor as the Native Americans that were wiped out. Most people have a problem with the fact that there were black people in America prior to European invasions; but there was!
I'm not calling the Wichita's Africans or even natives of and ancient African voyage but I can say they are black.
They are con artists. They have never been granted any land.
What are you talking about? They were granted reservation land.
Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
Here is more information on the origination of the name California. The Harvard researcher, Josiah Royce, wrote the following piece in 1915; and while noting the name is referred to in the 15th century, glaringly left out the detail of the legend of Califia. No matter. My point remains that we won't be able to either prove nor disprove her historicity. The matter would be resolved if a family with a private collection has either figurine or statuette of her or writings of Cortez on the matter that independent scientists could prove were authentic. Time will tell.
Humboldt County History History of Humboldt County California - Historic Record Co., Los Angeles, 1915
CHAPTER I. The Origin of the Name California
Almost everybody knows that the discussion concerning the name California waxed warm for a number of years. Norton, the author of a recent book on California, tells us it is interesting to note that most school children are familiar with the discussion which has heretofore taken place as to the origin of the name. He says many people are familiar with its alleged formation from two Spanish or Latin words meaning a hot furnace; but unfortunately for the theory that this is the true derivation, it must be remembered that to the early Spaniards who first used the name in connection with the country, California was not a hot country, but in comparison with those through which they had to come to reach it, a cold one. The name first appeared in the written record as applied to Lower (Baja) California in Preciado's diary of Ulloa's trip down the coast of that peninsula in 1539. But it is used there as if it were already in common use. And it is probable that it was first given to the country by Cortes or some of his followers either at Santa Cruz or La Paz between 1535 and 1537.
In his History of the New California the author of the present work (Leigh H. Irvine) discusses the origin of the name somewhat at length. He says that Prof. Josiah Royce, of Harvard, Winfield Davis, and other historians, now accept Edward Everett Hale's conclusion that the name California was derived from an old romance and applied by Cortes to the peninsula he discovered in 1535.
Mr. Hale made his investigations in the year 1862, while reading the old romance entitled "Sergas de Esplandian," by Garcia Ordouez de Montalvo, the translator of Amidas. In this connection it is worth while to give some of the statements of the eminent Dr. Hale, for there have been a number of theories as to the origin of the name. He says : "Coming to the reference in this forgotten romance to the Island of California, very near to the Terrestrial Paradise, I saw at once that here was the origin of the name of the state of California, long sought for by the antiquaries of that state, but long forgotten, for the romance seems to have been published in 1510—the edition of 1521 is now in existence—while our California, even the peninsula of that name, was not discovered by the Spaniards until 1526, and was not named California until 1535."
Not long after this discovery Mr. Hale invited the American Antiquarian Society to examine the evidence, and in March, 1864, he translated for the Atlantic Monthly all the parts of the story that relate to the Queen of California (Califia), and in 1873 he published a small volume on the subject, in which he said: "The name California was given by Cortes, who discovered the peninsula in 1535. For the statement that he named it we have the authority of Herrera. It is proved, I think, that the expedition of Mendoza, in 1532, did not see California ; it is certain that they gave it no name. Humboldt saw, in the archives of Mexico, a statement in manuscript that it was discovered in 1526, but for this there is no other authority.
"It is certain that the name did not appear until 1535. No etymology of this name has been presented that is satisfactory to the historian. Venegas, the Jesuit historian of California, writing in 1758, sums up the matter in these words: `The most ancient name is California, used by Bernal Diaz, limited to a single bay. I could wish to gratify the reader by the etymology of the word, but no etymology of the name has been presented that is satisfactory. In none of the dialects of the various natives could the missionaries find the least trace of such a name being given by them to the country, or even to any harbor, bay, or small part of it. Nor can I subscribe to the etymology of some writers, who supposed the name to have been given to it by the Spaniards because of their feeling an unusual heat at their first landing here; but they thence called the country California, compounding the two Latin words califa and fornax, a hot furnace. I believe few will think the adventurers could boast of so much literature.
Clavigero, in his history of California, after giving this etymology, offers as an alternative the following as the opinion of the learned Jesuit Giuseppe Compoi : He believes that the name is composed of the Spanish word cala, which means 'a little cove of the sea,' and the Latin fornix, which means 'the vault of a building.' He thinks these words are thus applied, because, within Cape St. Lucas there is a little cove of the sea, towards the western part of which rises a rock, so torn out that on the upper part of the hollow is seen a vault, as perfect as if made by art. Cortes, therefore, observing this cala or cove and this vault, probably called this port California or Cala fornix—speaking half in Spanish, and half in Latin. Clavigero suggests as an improvement on this somewhat wild etymology that Cortes may have said Cala Fornax, meaning cove furnace, speaking as in the Jesuit's suggestion, in two languages."
Towards the close of this romance of the Sergas de Esplandian the various Christian knights assemble to defend the Emperor of the Greeks and the city of Constantinople against the attack of the Turks and Infidels. In the romance the name appears with precisely our spelling in the following passage:
"Sergas Chapter 157: 'Know that, on the right hand of the Indies there is an island called California very near to the Terrestrial Paradise, which was peopled with black women, without any men among them, because they were accustomed to live after the fashion of Amazons. They were of strong and hardened bodies, of ardent courage, and of great force. The island was the strongest in the world, from its steep rocks and great cliffs. Their arms were all of gold; and so were the caparisons of the wild beasts which they rode, after having tamed them; for in all the Island there is no other metal. They lived in caves very well worked out; they had many ships, in which they sailed to other parts to carry on their forays."
The name appears in several distinct passages in the book. Mr. Hale adds : "This romance, as I have said, is believed to have been printed first in 1510. No copies of this edition, however, are extant. But of the edition of 1519 a copy is preserved ; and there are copies of successive editions of 1521, 1525 and 1526, in which last year two editions were published—one at Seville and the other at Burgos. All of these are Spanish. It follows, almost certainly, that Cortes and his followers, in 1535, must have been acquainted with the romance; and after they sailed up the west side of Mexico, they supposed they were precisely at the place indicated, 'on the right hand of the Indies.' It will be remembered, also, that by sailing in the same direction, Columbus, in his letters to the sovereigns, says : 'He shall be sailing towards the Terrestrial Paradise.'
We need not suppose that Cortes believed the romance more than we do; though we do assert that he borrowed a name from it to indicate the peninsula which he found 'on the right side of the Indies, near to the Terrestrial paradise.' * * * In ascribing to the Esplandian the origin of the name California, I know that I furnished no etymology for that word. I have not found the word in any earlier romances. I will only suggest that the word Calif, the Spanish spelling for the sovereign of the Mussulman power of the time, was in the mind of the author as be invented these Amazon allies of the Infidel power."
It will be seen that there have been many discussions on the subject, and whether true or false the little romance is now accepted as the most likely explanation of the origin of the word.
It's little known that despite the archeological evidence showing that Baja, California was approached by Old Stone Age Africans from Northern Europe and Washington (see the web page at the head of this thread - the skeletal evidence in the state of Washington); and red and black figurine in Baja just as found in Africa; It's not recognized that there was a huge African presence in MesoAmerica and South America that could approach Baja (Cortez called it California, eventually), Africans surrounded Baja and lived within it. Even at the founding of Los Angelas, it was primarily Africans who carried the event. My only point being (I'm far from finished with the research) that whether or not Califia is historical, evidence has it that someone like her was likely historical. Here's another article showing the early African presence in California:
California Named After Black Queen
By Kwaku Person Lynn, Ph.D. | SPECIAL TO THE OBSERVER
It is well documented that of the 44 people who founded the City of Los Angeles, 26 were of Afrikan descent. What is amazing and not taught in California schools is that the majority of the founders of San Francisco, San Jose and San Diego were of Afrikan descent, or that Orange County, Beverly Hills and Malibu were once owned by people of Afrikan descent.
The state of California was named after the mythical Black Queen Califia. The Picos, Black Spanish speaking brothers, Pio and Andres, the former twice California governor, owned San Fernando Valley, Whittier and the Camp Pendleton area.
California is in the media everyday. It is incredible most California residents know nothing about the state being named after a Black Woman queen. The genesis of the name begins with a story read by Spanish explorer Hernando Cortez, who conquered Mexico, killed Montezuma, ended the Aztec empire before entering Baja California, continuing his search for gold.
The 17th century best-selling adventure story was written by a Spaniard named Garci Oronez de Montalvo and published in Seville in 1510. The name of the book was "the Exploits of Esplandian," and it was written as a sequel to the popular Portuguese poem, "Amadis de Guala." (Wanda Sabir, San Francisco Bay View)
The following is an excerpt from the epic that inspired Cortez, featuring a nation composed entirely of fierce, powerful, wealthy Black women. "Know ye that at the right hand of the Indies there is an island named California, very close to that part of the terrestrial Paradise, which was inhabited by Black women, without a single man among them, and that they lived in the manner of Amazons.
"They were robust of body, with strong and passionate hearts and great virtues. The island itself is one of the wildest in the word on account of the bold and craggy rocks. Their weapons were all made of gold. The island everywhere abounds with gold and precious stones and upon it no other metal was found." The commanding Queen Califia ruled this mythical island.
Conducting an interview with John William Templeton, California historian and author of the four volume set, "Our Roots Run Deep: The Black Experience In California," started on the journey of digging up the history of Blacks in California through a conversation with a San Francisco radio host.
"I was doing a story on Rodney King for the Mercury News, and while I was down there someone said that a Black man used to own the San Fernando Valley. That was Pio de Jesus Pico (1801-1894).
"And then I found out that he was also the last Mexican governor of California. I didn't know of any Black governors or anything, so I called into the Ray Taliaferro show (on KGO news radio, San Francisco) and said to him, "Did you know that there were four Black governors of the state of California?" He said, "That ain't nothing. The whole damn state is named after a Black woman."
According to the story, California was an island where only Black women lived, gold was the only metal and pearls were as common as rocks.
The women were the most powerful and ferocious women in the world. They had beasts that were half men, half birds. After mating with men, the women would feed the men to these beasts called griffins. When Cortez arrived in California, searching for this mythical queen, her influence on him was so sever, he paid tribute to this powerful Black Woman Queen Califia by naming the state after her. California literally means, "the land where Black women live."
Her painting can be found in the state capitol California Senate building in Sacramento; a mural painted in 1926 by Maynard Dixon and Frank von Slun in the Hall of the Dons at the Intercontinental Mark Hopkins Hotel in San Francisco, and in all places, a large painting of her resides on the wall of the Golden Dreams building at the Disney California Adventure in Orange County.
Unfortunately, on the Great Seal of the State of California, we have Miniver instead of Queen Califia, because Miniver was the Greek goddess who was born full grown, and more acceptable to the Europeans who settled in the state. None of this matters though.
At ten end of the day, when all the historians and anthropologists attempt to spin this story in another direction, the conclusion will still come down to one dynamic detail: California was named for a Black Woman queen.
Kwaku Person-Lynn is the author of "On My Journey Now — The Narrative and Works of Dr. John Hendrik Clarke."
And least we forget - faces tell the story. These people to the south of Baja could supply the African population that a reputed Califa emerged from from the South:
In fact, not only is it possible that Califia existed, it would be astounding and unbelievable if someone like her did not exist in Baja or nearby and related places. She, though, as fact or fiction is still up for grabs.
Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
A few corrections and updates made on the page. For one thing, the background to the boats are now color-coordinated. And more links have been added to articles dealing with Califia.
Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
Another clarification. Earlier I'd said that Africans would have had to have been able to approach Baja from across the American continent.
In looking back at that, though, it doesn't make a point. The point I'd wanted and failed to make is that Baja had to have become inhabited from some direction. And so I've stated that it had to have been reachable from travel either across the continent or from the north or south Pacific. And there were African populations in all three directions that could reach Baja. So, that it is said Califia dwelt there, fact has it that it is possible that Africans could have so come to inhabit it from three different directions. This line of thought was clarified.
Marc W.
Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
MY PROPOSAL FOR THE ORIGIN OF NAME CALIFIA: If you do a key word search on the name Abu Bakari, it produces articles and books written about a 12th century Abu Bakari, a Muslim sultan of Mali who, the history shows, took between 1000 - 2000 ships from Africa to the New World. Many such transatlantic journeys at that time landed in Mesoamerica.
Now, the title Caliph is a title of the successors of Mohammed as rulers of the Islamic world, later assumed by the Sultans of Turkey. The title occurs as follows of the 10th century Ummayyed Caliph Abdul-Rahman III.
In the 16th century book naming the African Queen Califia is also written of the Christian crusades against the "Caliph" and this transliterates exactlyly to Calif as in Califia (and later California).
Abu Bakari and other Arabs made it to America centuries before Columbus. But, the designation "Arab" is 5% relevant but the designation "African" is 95% relevant.
CONCLUDING COMMENT: As there abundant historical logs / journals showing these transatlantic journeys from Africa to the Americas, and as these people were first and foremost African before being Arabic, it was, properly, Africans who made these journeys. The name Caliph (Califia) was, I propose (in the event Califia was a real queen) was in the language of the Africans who explored and settled the West coast of Mexico and settled Baja (remember the red and black human figures Myrna showed us in cave art in Baja).
I propose that Caliph / Calif was one of the many (see article below) African names that became Americanized; and could have been a title assumed by the African queen of Baja (should she have been an historical person - and that is unknown).
Dr. Winter's name is cited in the references in the excellent article below:
Preparatory Commitee for International Festivals to celebrate the millennium of the Muslims arrival to the Americas, ( 996-1996 CE )
PRECOLUMBIAN MUSLIMS IN THE AMERICAS By Dr. Youssef Mroueh
INTRODUCTION
Numerous evidence suggests that Muslims from Spain and West Africa arrived to the Americas at least five centuries before Columbus. It is recorded,for example, that in the mid-tenth century, during the rule of the Ummayyed Caliph Abdul-Rahman III (929-961 CE), Muslims of African origin sailed westward from the Spanish port of DELBA(Palos) into the "Ocean of darkness and fog". They returned after a long absence with much booty from a "strange and curious land". It is evident that people of Muslim origin are known to have accompanied Columbus and subsequent Spanish explorers to the New World.
The last Muslim stronghold in Spain, Granada, fell to the Christians in 1492 CE, just before the Spanish inquisition was launched. To escape persecution, many non-Christians fled or embraced Catholicism. At least two documents imply the presence of Muslims in Spanish America before 1550 CE. Despite the fact that a decree issued in 1539 CE by Charles V, king of Spain, forbade the grandsons of Muslims who had been burned at the stake to migrate to the West Indies. This decree was ratified in 1543 CE, and an order for the expulsion of all Muslims from overseas Spanish territories was subsequently published. Many references on the Muslim arrival to Americas are available. They are summarized in the following notes:
A: HISTORIC DOCUMENTS:
1. A Muslim historian and geographer ABUL-HASSAN ALI IBN AL-HUSSAIN AL-MASUDI (871-957 CE) wrote in his book Muruj adh-dhahab wa maadin aljawhar (The meadows of gold and quarries of jewells) that during the rule of the Muslim caliph of Spain Abdullah Ibn Mohammad(888-912 CE), a Muslim navigator, Khashkhash Ibn Saeed Ibn Aswad, from Cortoba, Spain sailed from Delba (Palos) in 889 CE, crossed the Atlantic, reached an unknown territory(ard majhoola) and returned with fabulous treasures. In Al-Masudi's map of the world there is a large area in the ocean of darkness and fog which he referred to as the unknown territory (Americas).(1)
2. A Muslim historian ABU BAKR IBN UMAR AL-GUTIYYA narrated that during the reign of the Muslim caliph of Spain, Hisham II (976-1009CE), another Muslim navigator, Ibn Farrukh, from Granada, sailed from Kadesh (February 999CE) into the Atlantic, landed in Gando (Great Canary islands) visiting King Guanariga, and continued westward where he saw and named two islands, Capraria and Pluitana. He arrived back in Spain in May 999 CE.(2)
3. Columbus sailed from Palos (Delba), Spain. He was bound for GOMERA (Canary Islands)-Gomera is an Arabic word meaning 'small firebrand' - there he fell in love with Beatriz BOBADILLA, daughter of the first captain general of the island (the family name BOBADILLA is derived from the Arab Islamic name ABOU ABDILLA.).Nevertheless, the BOBADILLA clan was not easy to ignore. Another Bobadilla (Francisco) later, as the royal commissioner, put Columbus in chains and transferred him from Santo Dominigo back to Spain (November 1500 CE).
The BOBADILLA family was related to the ABBADID dynasty of Seville (1031-1091 CE). On October 12, 1492 CE, Columbus landed on a little island in the Bahamas that was called GUANAHANI by the natives. Renamed SAN SALVADOR by Columbus. GUANAHANI is derived from Mandinka and modified Arabic words. GUANA (IKHWANA) means 'brothers' and HANI is an Arabic name.Therefore the original name of the island was 'HANI BROTHERS'. (11) Ferdinand Columbus, the son of Christopher, wrote about the blacks seen by his father in Handuras: "The people who live farther east of Pointe Cavinas, as far as Cape Gracios a Dios, are almost black in color." At the same time, in this very same region, lived a tribe of Muslim natives known as ALMAMY. In Mandinka and Arabic languages, ALMAMY was the designation of "AL-IMAM"or "AL-IMAMU", the leader of the prayer,or in some cases, the chief of the community,and/or a member of the Imami Muslim community. (12)
4. A renowned American historian and linguist, LEO WEINER of Harvard University, in his book, AFRICA AND THE DISCOVERY OF AMERICA (1920) wrote that Columbus was well aware of the Mandinka presence in the New World and that the West African Muslims had spread throughout the Caribbean, Central, South and North American territories, including Canada,where they were trading and intermarrying with the Iroquois and Algonquin Indians. (13)
B: GEOGRAPHIC EXPLORATIONS:
1. The famous Muslim geographer and cartographer AL-SHARIF AL-IDRISI (1099- 1166CE) wrote in his famous book Nuzhat al-mushtaq fi ikhtiraq al-afaq (Excursion of the longing one in crossing horizons) that a group of seafarers (from North Africa) sailed into the sea of darkness and fog (The Atlantic ocean) from Lisbon (Portugal), in order to discover what was in it and what extent were its limits. They finally reached an island that had people and cultivation...on the fourth day, a translator spoke to them in the Arabic language. (3)
2. The Muslim reference books mentioned a well-documented description of a journey across the sea of fog and darkness by Shaikh ZAYN EDDINE ALI BEN FADHEL AL-MAZANDARANI. His journey started from Tarfaya (South Morocco) during the reign of the King Abu-Yacoub Sidi Youssef (1286-1307CE) 6th of the Marinid dynasty, to Green Island in the Caribbean sea in 1291 CE (690 HE). The details of his ocean journey are mentioned in Islamic references, and many Muslim scholars are aware of this recorded historical event..(4)
3. The Muslim historian CHIHAB AD-DINE ABU-L-ABBAS AHMAD BEN FADHL AL-UMARI (1300-1384CE/700-786HE) described in detail the geographical explorations beyond the sea of fog and darkness of Mali's sultans in his famous book Massaalik al-absaar fi mamaalik al-amsaar (The pathways of sights in the provinces of kingdoms).(5)
4. Sultan MANSU KANKAN MUSA (1312-1337 CE) was the world renowned Mandinka monarch of the West African Islamic empire of Mali. While travelling to Makkah on his famous Hajj in 1324 CE, he informed the scholars of the Mamluk Bahri sultan court (An-Nasir Nasir Edin Muhammad III-1309-1340 CE) in Cairo, that his brother, sultan Abu Bakari I (1285-1312CE) had undertaken two expeditions into the Atlantic ocean. When the sultan did not return to Timbuktu from the second voyage of 1311 CE, Mansa Musa became sultan of the empire. (6)
5. Columbus and early Spanish and portuguese explorers were able to voyage across the Atlantic (a distance of 2400 Km's) thanks to Muslim geographical and navigational information. In particular maps made by Muslim traders, including AL-MASUDI (871-957CE) in his book Akhbar az-zaman (History of the world) which is based on material gathered in Africa and Asia (9). As a matter of fact, Columbus had two captain of muslim origin during his first transatlantic voyage: Martin Alonso Pinzon was the captain of the PINTA,and his brother Vicente Yanez Pinzon was the captain of the NINA. They were wealthy, expert ship outfitters who helped organize the Columbus expedition and prepared the flagship, SANTA MARIA. They did this at their own expense for both commercial and political reasons. The PINZON family was related to ABUZAYAN MUHAMMAD III (1362-66 CE), the Moroccan sultan of the Marinid dynasty (1196-1465CE). (10)
C: ARABIC (ISLAMIC) INSCRIPTIONS:
1. Anthropologists have proven that the Mandinkos under Mansa Musa's instructions explored many parts of North America via the Mississippi and other rivers systems. At Four Corners, Arizona, writings show that they even brought elephants from Africa to the area.(7)
2. Columbus admitted in his papers that on Monday, October 21,1492 CE while his ship was sailing near Gibara on the north-east coast of Cuba, he saw a mosque on top of a beautiful mountain. The ruins of mosques and minarets with inscriptions of Quranic verses have been discovered in Cuba,Mexico,Texas and Nevada. (8)
3. During his second voyage, Columbus was told by the indians of ESPANOLA (Haiti), that black people had been to the island before his arrival. For proof, they presented Columbus with the spears of these African muslims. These weapons were tipped with a yellow metal that the indians called GUANIN, a word of West African derivation meaning 'gold alloy'. Oddly enough, it is related to the Arabic word 'GHINAA' which means 'WEALTH'. Columbus brought some GUANINES back to Spain and had them tested. He learned that the metal was 18 parts gold (56.25%), 6 parts silver (18.75%) and 8 parts copper (25%), the same ratio as the metal produced in African metalshops of Guinea. (14)
4. In 1498 CE, on his third voyage to the new world, Columbus landed in Trinidad. Later, he sighted the South American continent, where some of his crew went ashore and found natives using colorful handkerchiefs of symmetrically woven cotton. Columbus noticed that these handkerchiefs resembled the headdresses and loinclothes of Guinea in their colors, style and function. He refered to them as ALMAYZARS. ALMAYZAR is an Arabic word for 'wrapper','cover','apron' and/or 'skirting' which was the cloth the Moors (Spanish or North African Muslims) imported from west Africa (Guinea) into Morocco, Spain and Portugal.
During this voyage, Columbus was surprised that the married women wore cotton panties (bragas) and he wondered where these natives learned their modesty. Hernan Cortes, Spanish conqueror, described the dress of the Indian women as 'long veils' and the dress of Indian men as 'breechcloth painted in the style of Moorish draperies'. Ferdinand Columbus called the native cotton garments 'breechclothes of the same design and cloth as the shawls worn by the Moorish women of Granada'. Even the similarity of the children's hammocks to those found in North Africa was uncanny.(15)
5. Dr. Barry Fell (Harvard University) introduced in his book 'Saga America-1980' solid scientific evidence supporting the arrival, centuries before Columbus, of Muslims from North and West Africa. Dr. Fell discovered the existence of the Muslim schools at Valley of Fire, Allan Springs, Logomarsino, Keyhole, Canyon, Washoe and Hickison Summit Pass (Nevada), Mesa Verde (Colorado), Mimbres Valley (New Mexico) and Tipper Canoe(Indiana) dating back to 700-800 CE. Engraved on rocks in the arid western U.S, he found texts, diagrams and charts representing the last surviving fragments of what was once a system of schools - at both an elementary and higher level. The language of instruction was North African Arabic written with old Kufic Arabic scripts. The subjects of instruction included writing, reading, arithmetic, religion, history, geography, mathematics, astronomy and sea navigation. The descendants of the Muslim visitors of North America are members of the present Iroquois, Algonquin, Anasazi, Hohokam and Olmec native people..(16)
6. There are 565 names of places (villages, towns, cities, mountains, lakes, rivers,.. etc. ) in U.S.A. (484) and Canada (81) which derived from Islamic and Arabic roots. These places were originally named by the natives in precolumbian periods. Some of these names carried holy meanings such as: Mecca-720 inhabitants (Indiana), Makkah Indian tribe (Washington), Medina-2100 (Idaho), Medina-8500 (N.Y.), Medina-1100, Hazen-5000 (North Dakota), Medina-17000/Medina-120000 (Ohio), Medina-1100 (Tennessee), Medina-26000 (Texas), Medina-1200 (Ontario), Mahomet-3200 (Illinois), Mona-1000 (Utah), Arva-700 (Ontario)...etc. A careful study of the names of the native Indian tribes revealed that many names are derived from Arab and Islamic roots and origins, i.e. Anasazi, Apache, Arawak, Arikana, Chavin, Cherokee, Cree, Hohokam, Hupa, Hopi, Makkah, Mahigan, Mohawk, Nazca, Zulu, Zuni...etc..
1. AGHA HAKIM, AL-MIRZA Riyaadh Al-Ulama(Arabic), Vol.2 P.386/Vol.4 P.175. 2. AL-AMEEN, SAYED MOHSIN Aayan Ash-Shia(Arabic), Vol.7 P.158/Vol 8, P.302-3. 3. AL-IDRISSI Nuzhat Al-Mushtaq fi Ikhtiraq Al-Afaaq(Arabic). 4. AL-MASUDI Muruj Adh-Dhahab (Arabic), Vol. 1, P. 138. 5. AL-ASFAHANI, AR-RAGHIB Adharea Ila Makarim Ash-Shia, Vol.16, P.343. 6. CAUVET, GILES Les Berbers de L'Amerique, Paris 1912, P.100-101. 7. COLUMBUS, FERDINAND, The Life of Admiral Christopher Columbus, Rutgers Univ. Press, 1959, P.232. 8. DAVIES, NIGEL, Voyagers to the New World, New York 1979. 9. ON MANUEL OSUNAY SAVINON, Resumen de la Geografia Fisica...,Santa Cruz de Tenerife, 1844. 10. FELL, BARRY, Saga America, New York, 1980. 11. FELL, BARRY, America BC, New York, 1976. 12. GORDON, CYRUS, Before Columbus, New York, 1971. 13. GYR, DONALD, Exploring Rock Art, Santa Barbara 1989. 14. HUYGHE, PATRICK Columbus was Last, New York, 1992. 15. OBREGON ,MAURICIO The Columbus Papers,The Barcelona Letter of 1493, The Landfall Controversy, and the Indian Guides, McMillan Co.,New York 1991. 16. THACHER, JOHN BOYD, Christopher Columbus, New York 1950, P.380. 17. VAN SETIMA, IVAN, African Presence in Early America, New Brunswick, NJ, 1987. 18. VAN SETIMA,IVAN, They Came Before Columbus, New York, 1976. 19. VON WUTHENAU, ALEX, Unexpected Facts in Ancient America, New York, 1975. 20. WEINER, LEO, Africa and the Discovery of America, Philadelphia 1920, Vol.2, P. 365-6. 21. WILKINS, H. T., Mysteries of Ancient South America, New York, 1974. 22. WINTERS, CLYDE AHMAD, Islam in Early North and South America, Al-Ittihad, July 1977, P.60.
Hey Marc, still believe the Vikings were black?
Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Abu Bakari and other Arabs made it to America centuries before Columbus. But, the designation "Arab" is 5% relevant but the designation "African" is 95% relevant.
Actually, I'd think that it is important to make the distinction that Abubakari II was not an Arab; no where near it. I'd also think it quite odd that an Arab would rule as Mansa in the middle of Old Mali's Keita dynasty.. All of the Mansas of Mali were Mandinkas and in some way or another connected (by blood) to the historical founder of the empire, Mari Djata, or Sundiata Keita. Your confusion may stem from the fact that they were Muslim, but of course Muslim doesn't = Arab.. They all for the most part claimed descent from Bilal ibn Ribah, who was an Ethiopian and the first muezzin of Islam..
^So basically if Abubakari II's journey was indeed successful, then "African" would be 100% relevant with "Arab" being of no relevance whatsoever (in concern to Abubakari at least)..
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tyrann0saurus: Hey Marc, still believe the Vikings were black?
To help Marc, there is ample evidence to support and corroborate the argument that Abubakari II LEFT Mali with thousands of ships and headed for this new land. Now, whether or not he actually made it to South America is another thing altogether. I am skeptical about all of those Indian tribal names having Arabic and Muslim roots though.
I've always wondered though...what kind of ships did Mali use during this time? Which no doubt would have been a golden age for them. I know of the traditional-looking simple reed boats...but would a rich Medieval kingdom at the height of its power be using simple reed boats to travel across the ocean? Especially keeping in mind that they would have had to take things with them? But as far as I'm aware...no huge arsenal of "advanced" naval ships have ever been found in the region where Mali was located. But it's also a known fact that there needs to be more archeological work done in West Africa.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
quote:Originally posted by Tyrann0saurus: Hey Marc, still believe the Vikings were black?
To help Marc, there is ample evidence to support and corroborate the argument that Abubakari II LEFT Mali with thousands of ships and headed for this new land. Now, whether or not he actually made it to South America is another thing altogether. I am skeptical about all of those Indian tribal names having Arabic and Muslim roots though.
I've always wondered though...what kind of ships did Mali use during this time? Which no doubt would have been a golden age for them. I know of the traditional-looking simple reed boats...but would a rich Medieval kingdom at the height of its power be using simple reed boats to travel across the ocean? Especially keeping in mind that they would have had to take things with them? But as far as I'm aware...no huge arsenal of "advanced" naval ships have ever been found in the region where Mali was located. But it's also a known fact that there needs to be more archeological work done in West Africa.
MANDING IN AFRICA
In Africa the Mande lived in large villages in Medieval times. At this time the Manding lived on mounds with their circular huts made of stone and wood on the top. Their fields were tilled each day. The houses were clustered together in compounds organized around a family head and his married sons. The houses were round.
The Manding warriors used spears, spear throwers, bows and arrows. The farmers used axes, hoes and scythes.
The Manding wore woven cotton breeches, or simply a girdle. The men often wore sandals and a Tunic.
The Manding lived in mounds along the Niger rivers. The mound cultures of ancient America were built by Africans primarily Manding. The people of the Niger Delta formed river riverine communities which were partly vegetation with some aquatic animals were eaten.
The pottery associated with the Niger Valley/Delta cultures is usually bright red or white on red ware. This pottery corresponds to pottery used in the southern Sahara between 2000 to 500 BC.At Kouga, we find in numerous tumuli, with impressions of millet, wheat and perhaps Maize. The name for maize in Manding is KA, this corresponds to the Maya word for maize KAN.
Other excavated tumuli in the Niger area have also yielded many copper and glass artifacts including numerous terocotto figurines of Blacks in a sitting position. These seated figures have been mainly found at Kaniana, while other statuettes have been found at Nankaka, Kami, Koubaye, Bamako-Bankoni, N'Koumi and Mopti.
The ancient Manding built several types of homes. In ancient times they built masonry houses and cliff dwellings identical to those found in the American Southwest. In Medieval times they lived on mounds in the most watery areas in their circular huts made a stone and wood on the top and their fields in front of the mounds tilled each day.
The Malian people arrived in America as merchants. They were taken to the New World by the Currents that exist in the Atlantic that wash upon the Atlantic shoreline of the Americas.
The Malian people introduced their technology to the Americas. The Manding built dwellings depending on the topography . Near rivers they lived on mounds. In semi-arid regions they lived in cliff houses, like those found in the Southwest. Today the Dogon who trace their descent to the Mande live in identical dwellings as those found in Colorado,where Manding inscriptions dating to the A.D. 1000 's have been found related to the Pueblo culture.
The most common signs found in Mandeland and the American southwest are habitation signs painted in red at Anasazi. These signs agree with Mande signs along the Niger river in Africa.
Near major waterway the Mande occupied mounds. The construction of the Mande mounds in the Americas follow the African tradition as serving as cemetary and habitation mounds . The mounds usually had two openings, one remained open and the was sealed off. These entrances to the mound were suppose to represent the passage way for the release of the soul.
The tomb of a Mande King, chief or family head, was usually situated below the surface of the ground, directly above the sepulcher was another house within the tomb which sometimes contained additional bodies .
The Manding speakers in Africa, founded the earliest empires in Northwest and West Africa. Between 100 BC and A.D. 1500 they founded the empires of Ghana and Mali. Scholars agree that during the Mali empire the Manding discovered America.
The king of Mali was called Mansa. The Mansas, controlled the land and sea trade in the Western Sudan. The leading Mande merchant group were the Wangara. They controlled the gold producing centers of Bure and Bambuk.
The great water system of the Upper NIger River and its tributaries were located in ancient Mali. The capital city of Mali was Niani. Niani ,was situated on the Niger. The Niger river empties into the Gulf of Guinea.
The ships or canoes plowing down the NIger were operated by the Bozo and Sorko fishermen. The Bozo lived along the western arm of the Nigerbend. The Sorko people, who spoke Songhay language submitted to Manding rule. The Bozo and Sorko, were the masters of the Niger river transport.Many of the ships of the NIger could carry burdens of 60-80 tons. These canoes were ninety to one hundred feet long. The men usually sat three abreast with ease. Around forty men paddled.
Other canoes were joined together. These canoes were forty feet long and five feet across. These jointed boats were mainly navigated by the Bozo. In addition to canoes the fishermen along the Niger built rope sewn plank boats ninety to one hundred feet long.
Around A.D. 1310, thousands of Manding speakers arrived in the Americas from ancient Mali. Ibn Fadlullah al- Umari, in his encyclopedia "Masalik al Absar", said the mariners from Mali during the reign of Abubakari made transatlantic voyages. Al-Umari, obtained his information from Mansa Musa,who was handed the kingship of Mali by Abubakari when he set out to colonize the Americas.
Mansa Musa, said that Mansa Abubakari would not believe that it was impossible to discover the limits of the neighboring sea (the Atlantic).Musa, told al-Umari that:"so he sent out 200 ships equipped and filled with men and the same number filled with gold, water and enough food to last them for years. Muhammad Abubakari, commanded that the captain not return until the supplies were exhausted".
After sometime, according to Mansa Musa, a single ship returned and the captain was ordered to report his findings. "Prince", he replied "we sailed for a long time up to the moment when we encountered in mid-Ocean something like a river with a violent current. My ship was last. The others sailed on...they disappeared and did not come back".
"But the Emperor[Abubakari] did not believe him", continued Musa,"He equipped two thousand vessels, a thousand for himself, and a thousand for water and supplies. He conferred power on me [Mansa Musa] and left with his companions on the ocean".
The expeditionary force of Mansa Abubakari, must have been immense, because the average boat on the Niger, in the 1500's A.D., could carry 80 men. This means that anywhere between 25,000 to 80,000 men may have sailed from Mali along with Mansa Abubakari.
The mention of a violent current in mid-ocean by Abubakari's captain may refer to the Atlantic ocean currents which can carry a boat from Africa to the Americas.
We can hypothesize that Abubakari and his expeditionary force probably left the city of Niani, by canoe and traveled down the NIger to the Gulf of Guinea. From here the expeditionary force was probably carried by the Guinea Current out into the Atlantic where it met the South Equatorial Current. The South Equatorial Current carried the Mali explorers to Brazil.
Abubakari's ships would not be the last vessels to be carried to Brazil. For example, in 1500 , Alvares Cabral's ship was captured by the North Equatorial Current and swiftly taken to Brazil.
In addition to high boat technology the ancient Manding had their own writing system. The so-called Libyco-Berber inscriptions found throughout the Western Sahara in the Air, Mauritania and Morocco were engraved by the ancient Manding in their own logo-syllabic script. At many Western Sahara and sites in North and South America, we find the Mande totem sign Kangaba (the lizard or serpent) engraved. The earliest Proto-Mande inscriptions are located at Oued Mertoutek which has been dated to 3000 BC. The Oued Mertoutek signs are identical to the Vai signs and the Manding signs located in the Grotte de Goundaka in West Africa.
.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ What about Manding in America? Nevermind, you showed us how many times. LOL Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
^His claims of Mande people reaching America in the 15th century aren't really that far-fetched, though presenting it as fact would indeed be misleading. A lot of this is laid out in Sertima's "They came before Columbus".. Some evidence may allude to the existence of African explorers reaching south and central America, but as Scorpion pointed out, there is no physical evidence in the form of recovered boats (in this case there was supposed to be 2,000 of them) or African artifacts to suggest that Abubakari's voyage was a success. Not in any way ruling out that it wasn't however, since some of the evidence cannot be reasonably overlooked as is sometimes done by suspicious skeptics.. I'd say an African presence (pre-columbus) in the Americas is likely, but more investigative research is of course welcome since the evidence currently presented is circumstantial, could-be coincidental, and some could just be disinformation or misinterpretation. Basically it is too easy for scholars to brush off..
What is testified above anything else is that Abubakari actually did attempt the mission, and this is preserved in the writings of the 15th century Arabic scholar Al-Umari and in the oral tradition of the griots of Guinea and Mali..
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ I agree. The above is reasonable. This should not be confused with the attempt to assign Olmec civilisation to Manding, which is not reasonable.
Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
Oh yes, I've never really entertained that either, which seems more like culture theft than anything else. The features seen displayed so elegantly on the Olmec statues are in no way unique to Africa and are actually prevalent in south America as well, not to rule out that they're merely an exaggeration of existing indigenous traits. It seems that the elaborate phenotypes seen on the busts are continuously cited as a main line of evidence to suggest an African presence/origin, which is quite silly in my opinion..
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundiata: ^His claims of Mande people reaching America in the 15th century aren't really that far-fetched, though presenting it as fact would indeed be misleading. A lot of this is laid out in Sertima's "They came before Columbus".. Some evidence may allude to the existence of African explorers reaching south and central America, but as Scorpion pointed out, there is no physical evidence in the form of recovered boats (in this case there was supposed to be 2,000 of them) or African artifacts to suggest that Abubakari's voyage was a success. Not in any way ruling out that it wasn't however, since some of the evidence cannot be reasonably overlooked as is sometimes done by suspicious skeptics.. I'd say an African presence (pre-columbus) in the Americas is likely, but more investigative research is of course welcome since the evidence currently presented is circumstantial, could-be coincidental, and some could just be disinformation or misinterpretation. Basically it is too easy for scholars to brush off..
What is testified above anything else is that Abubakari actually did attempt the mission, and this is preserved in the writings of the 15th century Arabic scholar Al-Umari and in the oral tradition of the griots of Guinea and Mali..
I agree, I don't believe the Olmec theory. But look at the Abubakari thing this way...Columbus did it in 1492 after several attempts and with the help of West African navigators who supposedly knew the trans-atlantic sea route that led to South America. I think it's totally POSSIBLE it could have happened, but until evidence is uncovered of Malians using some sort of more advanced naval ships than simple reed boats...the argument is hurt. Now, it's also totally possible the ships they MAY have used were imports from somewhere else (maybe Spain?). But again, more research is needed before anything certain can be said.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I can agree with those who'd like more evidence, but physical evidence is not lacking. More and better examples aren't liable to be uncovered without concerted archaelogical efforts ala Schlieman style when Afrikans are interested enough to sink some serious money into trying to uncover something like even a half dozen of Abubakar's fleet (which very possibly has rotted away without any discernable traces).
======From a post a couple of years ago==========
There‘s evidence of nongovernmental directed trade between West Africa and the Caribbean region, it‘s historic, linguistic, and metallurgical. The word for a gold alloy sold in Hispaniola was the same as that in Guinea.
quote:"...he [Columbus] thought to investigate the report of the Indians of this Espanola (Haiti) who said that there had come to Espanola from the south and south-east a black people who have the tops of their spears made of a metal which they call 'guanin' of which he had sent samples to the Sovereigns to have them assayed, when it was found that of 32 parts 18 were of gold 6 of silver and 8 of copper."
J. Batalha Reis Supposed Discovery of South America before 1488 and the Critical Methods of the Historians of Geographical Discovery Geographical Journal, Royal Geographical Society 9.2 1897 p 205 quoting from Raccolta de Documenti e Studi, Parte I, Vol. I, Scritti de Colombo p. 96
This guanin is precisely the same word kanine in Kono, a language spoken in Guinea. Variations of kanine pervade Mande languages and ultimately derives from Ghana the West African empire that was world reknowned for its gold trade. This gold alloy that included silver and copper was recorded by William Bosmanin A New and Accurate Description of the Coast of Guinea London, 1705, pp 73, 74.
Columbus mention of the black traders of guanin accompanies an intent to prove a notion by a king Dom Jaoa II of Portugal who was certain there was land southwest of Cabo Verde because of merchandise laden Guinean shippers seen heading in that direction in the 1480‘s, well before Columbus ever ventured to the Americas. When Columbus first applied to Portugal in 1484 its ruler told him that lands over 1500 miles west of Cape Verde were already claimed by Portugal. The Andrea Biancho map of 1448 shows that land writing an "authentic island is distant 1500 miles to the west." It looks like northeastern Brazil which is actually more like 2300 miles southwest of Cape Verde.
Another trade item intimately tied into African and Middle American economics was strips of cloth woven from the seeds of the silk cotton tree. Columbus wrote of this almaizar cloth
quote:"... handerchiefs of cotton, very symmetrically woven and worked in colors like those brought from Guinea, from the rivers of Sierra Leone, and of no difference."
Like guanin, almaizar was of economic importance being used as currency in West Africa and in Middle America. The siik cotton tree was grown in Middle America and the Americans wove almaizar of their own. Was this a botanical and technological transplant following the wake of pre Luso-Hispanic trans-Atlantic West African trade set up by Mandinka settlers? Philological ethnonymic and historic anthropology evidence shows that several names of towns and ethnies in Middle America were of West African derivation.
These things are well documented and of certain surety unlike stray single mentions of elephants in Arizona or minaretted masjids in Mexico, Texas, and Nevada, which I rule out until referenced by primary citations with quotes.
Trade involves goods from at least two terminals. What made it worth the West Africans efforts to trade with Middle Americans? I mean what went from the Americas to West Africa? This is an area for students and scholars of Africana studies to look into. It will further bolster the already existant evidence of pre Luso-Hispanic trans-Atlantic West African/Middle American trade.
=================================================
quote:Originally posted by Sundiata: ^His claims of Mande people reaching America in the 15th century aren't really that far-fetched, though presenting it as fact would indeed be misleading. A lot of this is laid out in Sertima's "They came before Columbus".. Some evidence may allude to the existence of African explorers reaching south and central America, but as Scorpion pointed out, there is no physical evidence in the form of recovered boats (in this case there was supposed to be 2,000 of them) or African artifacts to suggest that Abubakari's voyage was a success. Not in any way ruling out that it wasn't however, since some of the evidence cannot be reasonably overlooked as is sometimes done by suspicious skeptics.. I'd say an African presence (pre-columbus) in the Americas is likely, but more investigative research is of course welcome since the evidence currently presented is circumstantial, could-be coincidental, and some could just be disinformation or misinterpretation. Basically it is too easy for scholars to brush off..
What is testified above anything else is that Abubakari actually did attempt the mission, and this is preserved in the writings of the 15th century Arabic scholar Al-Umari and in the oral tradition of the griots of Guinea and Mali..
Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
Hello K. Scorpion. You wrote: "But as far as I'm aware...no huge arsenal of 'advanced' naval ships have ever been found in the region where Mali was located. But it's also a known fact that there needs to be more archeological work done in West Africa."
[Marc writes] The Italians and Spanish were whites who entered Europe likely from the same stock and point-of-origination as the so-called Indo-European so from the Russian Steppes. And, they arrived in Europe very late and millenniums after the African populations dwelling in Europe. Those African populations seem to have generic names applied sort of randomly: Celtic, Moor, Halstaat, La Dene. In any case, coming from the land-locked Russian Steppes, there were no seas and no boating traditions for such nomads. Entering Europe from about 900 BC to 800 AD, the Western Spanish and Italians didn't have enough time to develop shipping and the ships they used were plank ships like the smaller ones found in rock art going back to 7000 BC in North Africa.
I assume that what we call the Spanish Armada and navy was constructed by Africans and for centuries in use by them in Southern Europe before the Spanish became associated with them and turned the vessels from trade to war and conquest purposes.
QUESTION: Does anyone know how far back evidence (drawings, physical remains) for the construction of the ship types used in the Spanish Armada goes (I imagine large ocean-going seacraft of the size of the Armada ships would have preceded the Spanish Armada by centuries). If so, the figurine and physical evidence of Southern Europe produces enough evidence to indicate perdominantly African populations in the late BCs and early ADs and such boats would most logically be attributed to them given African plank boat traditions going back many millennium.
If this correlation can be made, it sets the ground to be able to hypothesize what technology was available in Mali - assuming trade and commerce between Mali and the "Moors" over the centuries. They would lkely have the same type boats used by the "Spanish" Armada.
quote:Originally posted by Sundiata: ^His claims of Mande people reaching America in the 15th century aren't really that far-fetched, though presenting it as fact would indeed be misleading. A lot of this is laid out in Sertima's "They came before Columbus".. Some evidence may allude to the existence of African explorers reaching south and central America, but as Scorpion pointed out, there is no physical evidence in the form of recovered boats (in this case there was supposed to be 2,000 of them) or African artifacts to suggest that Abubakari's voyage was a success. Not in any way ruling out that it wasn't however, since some of the evidence cannot be reasonably overlooked as is sometimes done by suspicious skeptics.. I'd say an African presence (pre-columbus) in the Americas is likely, but more investigative research is of course welcome since the evidence currently presented is circumstantial, could-be coincidental, and some could just be disinformation or misinterpretation. Basically it is too easy for scholars to brush off..
What is testified above anything else is that Abubakari actually did attempt the mission, and this is preserved in the writings of the 15th century Arabic scholar Al-Umari and in the oral tradition of the griots of Guinea and Mali..
I agree, I don't believe the Olmec theory. But look at the Abubakari thing this way...Columbus did it in 1492 after several attempts and with the help of West African navigators who supposedly knew the trans-atlantic sea route that led to South America. I think it's totally POSSIBLE it could have happened, but until evidence is uncovered of Malians using some sort of more advanced naval ships than simple reed boats...the argument is hurt. Now, it's also totally possible the ships they MAY have used were imports from somewhere else (maybe Spain?). But again, more research is needed before anything certain can be said.
um a white guy like 30 years ago sailed from Morocco to Barbados using a simple "reed boat"... so Abubakari going using his kingdom's native reed boats would have been just fine for the journey
P.S. And where does it say Columbus went to Africa and learned about sailing from them?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Of course you are referring to Thor Heyerdahl.
I don't know what any of that has to do with California being ruled by an African queen though.
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18:
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
quote:Originally posted by Sundiata: ^His claims of Mande people reaching America in the 15th century aren't really that far-fetched, though presenting it as fact would indeed be misleading. A lot of this is laid out in Sertima's "They came before Columbus".. Some evidence may allude to the existence of African explorers reaching south and central America, but as Scorpion pointed out, there is no physical evidence in the form of recovered boats (in this case there was supposed to be 2,000 of them) or African artifacts to suggest that Abubakari's voyage was a success. Not in any way ruling out that it wasn't however, since some of the evidence cannot be reasonably overlooked as is sometimes done by suspicious skeptics.. I'd say an African presence (pre-columbus) in the Americas is likely, but more investigative research is of course welcome since the evidence currently presented is circumstantial, could-be coincidental, and some could just be disinformation or misinterpretation. Basically it is too easy for scholars to brush off..
What is testified above anything else is that Abubakari actually did attempt the mission, and this is preserved in the writings of the 15th century Arabic scholar Al-Umari and in the oral tradition of the griots of Guinea and Mali..
I agree, I don't believe the Olmec theory. But look at the Abubakari thing this way...Columbus did it in 1492 after several attempts and with the help of West African navigators who supposedly knew the trans-atlantic sea route that led to South America. I think it's totally POSSIBLE it could have happened, but until evidence is uncovered of Malians using some sort of more advanced naval ships than simple reed boats...the argument is hurt. Now, it's also totally possible the ships they MAY have used were imports from somewhere else (maybe Spain?). But again, more research is needed before anything certain can be said.
um a white guy like 30 years ago sailed from Morocco to Barbados using a simple "reed boat"... so Abubakari going using his kingdom's native reed boats would have been just fine for the journey
P.S. And where does it say Columbus went to Africa and learned about sailing from them?
Yea, but how likely is it that reed boats would have been used for long distance travel like that? The white guy was just showing that it wasn't impossible like a lot of scholars were saying.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Why in the world would Bubacar use reed boats of Chad manufacture outside his empire when commercial fleets embarqued hourly along the Niger right at home in Mali? Not to mention the watercraft in use elsewhere in the empire between the Niger and the Atlantic.
quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18:
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: ... Malians using some sort of more advanced naval ships than simple reed boats...the argument is hurt. Now, it's also totally possible the ships they MAY have used were imports from somewhere else (maybe Spain?). But again, more research is needed before anything certain can be said.
um a white guy like 30 years ago sailed from Morocco to Barbados using a simple "reed boat"... so Abubakari going using his kingdom's native reed boats would have been just fine for the journey
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
It's not that he learned sailing from them but that was a place to sail to beyond the islands west of Africa.
Ttbomk, Colon was involved in mercantile ventures with "Guinea" some ten years before he planned his westward voyage. He saw "Guineans" traveling westward, beyond the nearby islands, laden with trade goods.
This is one reason why I suspect Mali, and later Songhai, kept the success of Bubacar's voyage a government trade secret. But evidence of Americas products or trade items in West Africa is also needed to confirm ongoing mutual trade relations were set up by the Maliens and "Americans."
quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18: P.S. And where does it say Columbus went to Africa and learned about sailing from them?
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: It's not that he learned sailing from them but that was a place to sail to beyond the islands west of Africa.
Ttbomk, Colon was involved in mercantile ventures with "Guinea" some ten years before he planned his westward voyage. He saw "Guineans" traveling westward, beyond the nearby islands, laden with trade goods.
This is one reason why I suspect Mali, and later Songhai, kept the success of Bubacar's voyage a government trade secret. But evidence of Americas products or trade items in West Africa is also needed to confirm ongoing mutual trade relations were set up by the Maliens and "Americans."
quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18: P.S. And where does it say Columbus went to Africa and learned about sailing from them?
Yea, sorta like how scientists and paleontogists were able to come to the conclusion of pangea. They found the same skeletons of dinosaurs and plants on neighboring continents.
Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
bumpt
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
The fact is that many of the first Americans discovered by the Europeans had dark skin. Look at old history books with photos of the paintings of the Indians done by European explorers and you will see that many of them, especially those from California, were very dark skinned indeed:
Some of the tribes from California are the Yokuts and Miwok:
quote: The Indians of the San Joaquin Valley were known as Yokuts. The word "Yokuts" means people. The Yokuts were unique among the California natives in that they were divided into true tribes. Each had a name, a language, and a territory.
The Yokuts were a friendly and peaceful loving people. They were tall, strong and well built. They had straight black hair and brown skin. The' Yokuts lived a simple life, depending on the land for food, clothing, and shelter.
"This man has scalped more Indians than any other person living on this coast, and has his trophies to prove the fact."
This was the headline of an article in the San Francisco Examiner in early 1899. The reporter had obtained an interview with one Jackson Farley, a pioneer rancher who had settled in Mendocino County in 1857. Was this merely the idle boast of an old man seeking notoriety? Not at all. Farley pointed out dozens of Indian scalps decorating the walls of his cabin. Too, the reporter duly noted the fact that Farley recited his tales while sitting in his "Indian hide-bottomed chair."
A member of one of Farley’s 1859 Indian hunting forays testified that: "On the first night we found and surrounded a rancheria in which we found two wounded Indians and one old squaw, all of which we killed; on our return home we found another rancheria which we approached within fifteen feet before the Indians observed us; then they broke for the brush, and we pursued them and killed thirteen bucks and two squaws."
And why were they slaughtered? The local Yuki and Wilacki Indians had been driven from their homes and forced to live on reservations where they were worked as slaves, starved, and their women raped. Desperate to feed their families, they would leave the reservation and kill the white man’s cattle.
The most persistent enemy of the native Californians was the firmly rooted white philosophy which preached that, one way or another, the Indian was doomed. Beyond the callous references to "Diggers" and "Poor Lo," the single most important catchword of the period was "extermination." It was used early and often and picked up by the newspapers and repeated in the army reports, letters, government documents, and journals of the time. It was a word that set the stage for slaughter.
And note, scalping started with Europeans taking trophies from Indians they killed, not the other way around.
And as far as the skeletal evidence, there are many new finds from all over the Americas of so-called paleo Indians whose skeletal remains are closer to South Asians and Africans than more recent Indian remains. Of course, there is hot debate among the scientific community about this, largely because many have a strong Eurocentric tendency in trying to tie the populations in America to Europe, by saying the tools and techniques that allowed people to conquer the Americas HAD to come from Europe as the stone tool industry in Europe was known to be somehow "more advanced". As if hominids haven't been making stone tools, shelter and clothing for many thousands of years prior to any advent of European peoples. Not to mention that they want these firs t Americans to look like Jaques Picard from star Trek in the reconstructions. And all of this GOES AGAINST THE ACTUAL PORTRAITS and IMAGES of the Indians from even 150 years ago who are DISTINCTLY DARK SKINNED.
quote: Palaeoanthropology: Tracking the first Americans
Tom D. Dillehay1 Top of page Abstract
A study of 33 ancient skulls excavated from Mexico invites us to reconsider our view of the ancestry of the early Americans. Unlike most other early American remains, the skulls resemble those from south Asian populations.
Questions of which human populations first arrived in the Americas, and when, where and how this happened, have been debated by scientists for decades1. It has long been presumed that the first people entering the New World were the direct ancestors of present-day Native Americans and that they arrived in America from northeast Asia about 12,000 years ago2. But this theory has been challenged by new archaeological discoveries and by findings of early human remains bearing anatomical similarities to the people of south Asia and the southern Pacific Rim3, 4 (Fig. 1). Writing on page 62 of this issue, González-José et al.5 add more fuel to this heated debate. They present a comparative study of early historic human skulls from Baja California, Mexico, and their findings lend weight to the view that not all early American populations were directly related to present-day Native Americans.
Human skeletal remains have long been used by palaeoanthropologists to model early human migration. The conventional view is that different skeletal populations with similar craniofacial features (skull form) shared a common ancestry and were genetically related, whereas different features reflect different ancestry. Migration histories and evolutionary forces explain the similarities or differences.
Piecing together the ancestry of the Americas has been difficult, as early human remains dating from about 10,000 years ago (the end of the last ice age) are fragmentary and scarce. Scientists have typically reconstructed the missing pieces of the most ancient skulls by extrapolating backwards from later, more complete skeletons. Ancient American skulls reconstructed in this way were anatomically indistinguishable from early northeast Asians and also from present-day Native Americans2. So a theory arose, supported by dental and other archaeological data6, that the first humans entering the Americas were northeast Asians who arrived in three successive migrations beginning around 12,000 years ago. These founding colonizers were thought to be big-game hunters, equipped with so-called Clovis spears7, who rapidly populated the Western Hemisphere and gave rise to present-day Native Americans.
But more recent archaeological discoveries suggest that there were several different founding populations, arriving from different places, each with different lifestyles and technologies8. Some populations not only hunted big game but also exploited a wide range of plant and animal life. To complicate matters further, it is no longer certain that the first colonizers arrived about 12,000 years ago — some archaeological sites in South America date from 12,500 years ago, which suggests that the first humans arrived at least 15,000 years ago.
A similar pattern of diversity is emerging from statistical analyses of cranial and facial measurements of some of the oldest skeletons found in the Americas. The archaeological and skeletal data have led to a new model, in which the Palaeoamericans — the proposed first arrivals in the New World — were not northeast Asians. They came instead from south Asia and the southern Pacific Rim, and they probably shared ancestry with ancient Australians and other southern populations3, 9. A second group of humans then arrived from northeast Asia or Mongolia, and it was this second population that adapted to the warming climate after the Ice Age and gave rise to the modern Amerindians (an ancient population of Americans whose skeletal remains make up most of the human material found in the New World) and the present-day Native Americans (Fig. 2b). So according to this theory, the Palaeoamericans are unrelated to most modern Amerindians and to the Native Americans.
González-José et al.5 now propose a more complex view of American ancestry. These authors analysed the skeletal remains of 33 modern Amerindians from early historic times, excavated from the tip of the Baja peninsula in Mexico. Surprisingly, the craniofacial features of these Baja Amerindians show closer affinity to the Palaeoamerican skulls than to other modern Amerindian remains. The Baja Amerindian and Palaeoamerican skulls have similar long and narrow braincases and relatively short, narrow faces, implying a common ancestry with the ancient inhabitants of south Asia and the Pacific Rim. González-José et al. confirm that modern Amerindian skulls from other areas are similar to ancient northeast Asian remains. Their new data add to accumulating evidence of morphological differences between early humans from different areas of the Americas8, 9.
The authors consider several potential explanations to account for the presence of Palaeoamerican traits in the Baja Amerindian skulls, but they suggest that the best explanation is that the Palaeoamericans were the direct ancestors of the Baja Amerindians. After the Ice Age, the increased aridity could have geographically isolated the founding Palaeoamerican population in the Baja area, and limited its gene flow with other modern Amerindian groups.
Do the new findings tell us anything more about when the first humans arrived in the Americas? The authors do not fully discuss the chronological implications of their work, but their interpretation of shared ancestry between the Palaeoamericans and the Baja Amerindians might best fit a model of Palaeoamerican arrival about 11,000–12,000 years ago. There is no direct evidence to support this view, but if the Palaeoamericans had arrived 15,000 years ago or earlier, the Baja population would have remained isolated for much longer. This seems unlikely, given the rate of population growth and movement that probably occurred after initial colonization and then after the Ice Age when the climate warmed.
But could the similarities between the ancient Palaeoamericans and the later Baja Amerindians instead reflect the influence of other evolutionary forces, such as gene flow or natural selection and convergent adaptation of different populations to similar local environments? Answering this question will depend upon finding more isolated prehistoric populations showing ancient Palaeoamerican traits, and then establishing whether parallel evolutionary forces were acting on them and whether they were derived from a single ancestry. But this will be a difficult task. Human remains from the end of the Ice Age are scarce and often fragmentary, so we have only a vague notion of the skeletal characteristics of the ancient Palaeoamericans. And we have a poor understanding of the migration history of different American populations and what kind of evolutionary forces might have influenced them10.
Given these limitations, the findings of González-José et al. do not allow us to draw firm conclusions about the relationship between the ancient Palaeoamericans and the later Baja Amerindians. But the importance of this and other studies7, 11 is that they suggest a different view of the origins and interactions of early human populations in the Americas. What we really want to know is what took place within and between these populations, how they changed over time, and how quickly they changed. These issues can be resolved only by obtaining more skeletal data11 and by combining them with regional archaeological records, which should provide information on the social and cultural histories of the different populations. Slowly, we are realizing that the ancestry of the Americas is as complex and as difficult to trace as that of other human lineages around the world.
^ Yes, and many dark-skinned Native Americans still do exist even today. And believe me, I see them many times in certain parts around Georgia (illegal immigrants).
My question is what does this fact have to do with the Califa legend?
And I agree that it is very possible, even probable that West Africans have sailed to the Americas. And even if they did, what do they have to do with the legend of Califa? Is there a suggestion as Marc believes, that Baja was settled by African migrants with their queen??
Posted by Mackandal (Member # 10328) on :
I hope people learn to do their research instead of always attacking Marc so muc. I don't agree with everything he says too, but I don't attack him. You guys jump on him like flies on poop.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
You need not look to illegal immigrants just to the Leni Lenape and Iroqois for instance.
Bód-a-sin, Chief of the Leni Lenape in 1830
Ni-có-man, secondary Lenape Chief in 1830
I admire Marc's gentlemanly manners and self-control which prohibit him from ragging his detractor in kind. Marc has the spiritual development bringing honour to the soul of his father, of blessed memory. A heightened human quality certain Africans are well known for in practical diplomacy, a characteristic sorely lacking on other continents and far off islands.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yes, and many dark-skinned Native Americans still do exist even today. And believe me, I see them many times in certain parts around Georgia (illegal immigrants).
My question is what does this fact have to do with the Califa legend?
And I agree that it is very possible, even probable that West Africans have sailed to the Americas. And even if they did, what do they have to do with the legend of Califa? Is there a suggestion as Marc believes, that Baja was settled by African migrants with their queen??
My point wasn't that they were African. The point was that many native Americans shared features similar to Polynesians and South East Asians, even to this day. This is to point out that those claims of ancient Paleo Indian skulls with features closer to Africans, Australians and South Asians being a distinct group who "disappeared" upon the arrival of later migrants from Northern Asia is pure nonsense. The REAL disappearance came after the arrival of European whites, who in many cases tried very hard to commit genocide against many Native American groups. The point was to also show that the dark brown Califia was NEVER said to have been an African and her brown skin and features were not mere legend and fable but based on fact.
Points taken, Doug.
Posted by jomyjk7 (Member # 17943) on :
Be smart,work more ..Importantly work faster - Caves of Nazca Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Jomyjk7 what does this have to do with the topic at hand? your link is a game..
Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
Hey Guys i live in Humboldt California right next to the Wiyot Tribe REservation let me tell u alot of those dark indians are gone my friend they are racist to whites here in humboldt but alot of the indians have become white.
Califia in my opinion has nothing to do with Caliph or Islam i dont even think there was a queen called Califia.
My Friends are MOorish Americans i am Muslim Sunni and they have bloodbrother relations with the native indians in california amongst the Hoopa tribe.
There is a part of California called Wichipek which is not United States Land and the only Indian Tribe to Never ever Sign a TReaty with the UNited States the Uruk tribe and they do not like Whites but there is a Rumor that the Chief of the Uruk Tribe is Black.
From my understanding the Washitaw Moors did recieve land under there Queen Vishita or something like that she One Land and alot of land in the United States Supreme Court on behave of the Washitaw Moors land that was given to them during the Liousiana Purchase.
One native indian here in Humboldt told me that the native indians never scalped whitemen until the French showed them how to do it.
In Humboldt they have CAnnibal island its a place were these whitefolks massacred women and children while the men were out hunting they actually wiped out a whole native indian tribe from the eel river.
What i do understand is that alot of the Indians mixed in with the Whites even here in Humboldt but they look more asian. It matters what part of Northern California u are at the most darkest indians are those inland Mendocino, Blue Lake, Willow Creek, Hayfork, HOney Dew.
My friend here is a Urok indian and he says that they never see blacks at all until Now
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
