I heard on this site that the color brown/reddish brown denoted strength/masculine and was used for the women in Egyptian paintings in the new kingdom and that yellow was the color used to denote weakness used for the women.
The problem I have with this is that I am seeing many paintings on this forum of women painted brown/reddish brown. So how does this yellow = women still stand?!?
May I get some support for the symbolism of Egyptian colors used in their paintings?
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
Uniform yellow hue of women vs. uniform brown color convention of men [in the same painting] is clearly symbolic, whatever that symbolism may be. This is rarely reproduced in small figurines of ordinary working Kemetic folks, which often attempt to relay a sense of realism in them.
Posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh* (Member # 13372) on :
ooh ok so you are saying that yellow women are in paintings only when brown colored men are there, but if there are all women in the painting they could all be brown? What about the Kemsit picture where she is black and the other women are yellow? What does that mean?
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ The dark skin tone of the 11 Dynasty royales is clearly realistic.
Princess Kemsit - her light skinned servants are Asiatics.
All the royalty in the 11 dynasty is portrayed in dark skin tone.
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*:
ooh ok so you are saying that yellow women are in paintings only when brown colored men are there
No. I'm saying precisely what I said. Reference it.
Posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh* (Member # 13372) on :
So how do we determine whether a yellow skinned woman is asiatic or a symbolic Egyptian woman?
lol as soon as I try accepting Egyptians as being black there is always some rod thrown in the mix sheesh lol
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
The black color of certain women at certain periods was often symbolic in a POSITIVE sense. It symbolized power as well as origins from the South. Women painted yellow was most often symbolic and it does not mean that one was asiatic and the other African necessarily. Color in Egyptian artwork was often governed by more than one convention of symbolism and artistic liscense. Sometimes color was used to break up the overall scene and introduce contrast in an artistic manner, much like the black and white colors of the figures on Vases and frescoes from ancient Greek art, which derives from the artistic conventions of Egyptian art. Everything cannot be interpereted LITERALLY.
quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida [So how do we determine whether a yellow skinned woman is asiatic or a symbolic Egyptian woman?
Kemsit and Mentuhotep are identified as Kemetic royales.
The long haired servants differ in hairstyle - unless they are wearing wigs, which would be odd given the context of the painting.
Kemsit meanwhile has and Afro - that is not symbolic. Thus the difference shown is ethnic.
The same is the case in the Book of Gates iconography.
In this iconography everyone is dead, and awaiting resurrection..... but the Km.t and Nhsy are still dark, and the Ammu/Tamehu are light.
^ Thus the skin color differences shown above are ethnic.
As for the differences between men and women, the lighter colors associated with women and darker with men also reflect the biological fact that men tend to be darker than women.
One of the reasons for this, is possibly that testosterone - male hormone - aids in protein synthesis. Melanin is a protein.
I agree that it's not -simple- in the sense of being able to use a single rule to determine what color means in all iconography all time.
But *this is just as true for so called symbolism* as for so called literalism.
Anyone using -simple- rules is oversimplifying and it will be easy to produce evidence that contradicts any rule, such as Kemetic females shown as being pitch-black in skin color when they are clearly *not Gods*, and not dead.
By the way - some symbolic explanations simply exploit tautologies.
For example:
* If a dark skinned women is not identified as Kemetic royale, then simply call her Nubian - which is meaningless since virtually no Kemetian is called this, but that doesn't stop *scholars* from using this apologetic.
** If a dark skinned women is identified as Kemetic royale - then she is powerful, so now you can claim her dark skinned *symbolises* power.
But neither explanation makes sense, for reasons noted above.
Symbolism also can't be taken literally ie - the notion that a given color universally symbolises power, symbolises afterlife, symbolises death, symbolises resurrection, symbolises fertility, symbolises strength, symbolises weakness, is so revealed as simplistic and easy falsiied because it leads to such internal inconsistencies.
[ie - how come the dead asiatics in the book of gates iconography - are never any darker - in spite of being dead?
- how come Ramses is shown as darker than yellowish Asiatics but lighter than blue/black Kushites?]
Each artificat must be examined both in context and in and of itself.
If this isn't very easy, well....too bad, it just isn't.
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
Worth reiterating:
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
Uniform yellow hue of women vs. uniform brown color convention of men [in the same painting] is clearly symbolic, whatever that symbolism may be.This is rarely reproduced in small figurines of ordinary working Kemetic folks, which often attempt to relay a sense of realism in them. Posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh* (Member # 13372) on :
Do you have a book or a website from authority on the subject of Egyptian colors? I think I will need to read this to better understand and trust the arbitration of color usage in Egyptian iconography
Posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh* (Member # 13372) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The black color of certain women at certain periods was often symbolic in a POSITIVE sense. It symbolized power as well as origins from the South. Women painted yellow was most often symbolic and it does not mean that one was asiatic and the other African necessarily. Color in Egyptian artwork was often governed by more than one convention of symbolism and artistic liscense. Sometimes color was used to break up the overall scene and introduce contrast in an artistic manner, much like the black and white colors of the figures on Vases and frescoes from ancient Greek art, which derives from the artistic conventions of Egyptian art. Everything cannot be interpereted LITERALLY.
So is it possible that in this particular picture the yellow women= young woman compared to the others?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*: So is it possible that in this particular picture the yellow women= young woman compared to the others?
Honestly, I dont know. Egyptian art had a lot of symbolism that is based on conventions and a canon that stayed relatively consistent throughout 3,000 years of history. There were many reasons for the colors in Egyptian art and all colors cannot be interpereted literally. Even the brown colored men or women did not necessarily represent the ACTUAL color of people in real life. Many of the workmen and other figures in tombs were purely FICTITIONAL figures to begin with and did not portray any ACTUAL people. The ONLY people that may have been actually portrayed in any particular tomb would have been the tomb owner and his family, but even then within the stylistic conventions of the Egyptian canon.
Many images are generalized because they were produced assembly line fashion. This means that workers were not always trying to be hyperealistic. One outlined the grids for the various panels, another did the base colors and a final crew did the outlines. The crews mixed the colors which formed the pallette for the particular tomb and used those colors until they ran out and these palettes often varied based on materials used or the way they were combined. They often never really varied the colors of human figures to attempt to reflect ACTUAL variation in skin complexion and just filled in all figures the same, males brown and women yellow. Then the line men came and did the outlines, with the outlines for most of the figures being pretty much identical to each other, where the only differences between any two figures were dress, color and hairstyle. This is seen quite often in Egyptian art.
Egyptian art was not like the art of the Greeks where inividual artists spent time producing elaborately detailed INDIVIDUAL figures or scenes. Egyptian art was massive, meaning a tomb or temple could contain HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of images of people, dieties and animals and therefore was optimized for efficiency in mass production, if not necessarily accuracy. Compare that to Greece or Rome where, notwithstanding the detail and accuracy, we have very FEW images of any sort, sculpures or paintings, left for us to see. In fact, one well preserved tomb from Egypt may have MORE images than everything left to us from Greece and Rome. So once you understand the framework for the way MOST of the images we see from Egypt were produced, you will understand and be able to read the patterns of style and color as being part of a larger framework of artistic convention that varied based on the crews doing the work, the lead artist and the stylistic conventions of any given time.
But face facts, this is just TOMB art and TEMPLE art that we are mostly talking about. We are not talking about the art produced in private for truly ARTISTIC purposes as most of that art has NOT survived. Most of what we see has survived because it was DESIGNED to last for eternity even if it wasnt the most accurate art work ever produced.
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
I tend to believe (with not much conviction though) that the dark/fair convention was the result of a pan-human conception of darkness and fairness being respectively associated with manhood and feminity as illustrated by many different ancient paintings from all around the world (Sahara, Greece, Rome, Mesoamerica, Japan, China, East India, etc.). A few Roman examples:
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
I've also noticed that every pic of a Napatean royal women I've seen depicts her in red, i.e. the same complexion of Kings: Queen Qalhata, mother of King Tanwetamani : King Taharqa and his wife Dikahatamani:
I also remember reading from an Assyrian royal text I forgot the name that Taharqa's relatives were referred as being as "black as asphalt". So what I get from the data I've seen so far is that Kushites borrowed Egyptian color symbolism and adapted it to their kingship, the royal women having a equal status to men at the time of the Napata period already (cf. Babacar SALL).
Maybe this, as well as only old fat male individuals in the OK kingdom being painted in yellow would indicate that the red/yellow dichotomy had a value originally associated with manhood/feminity that also evolved into a more abstract activeness/softness symbolism.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: I tend to believe (with not much conviction though) that the dark/fair convention was the result of a pan-human conception of darkness and fairness being respectively associated with manhood and feminity as illustrated by many different ancient paintings from all around the world (Sahara, Greece, Rome, Mesoamerica, Japan, China, East India, etc.). A few Roman examples:
Actually those portaits are an example of mixed ethnic references with a blatantly African Hercules and cherubs along with European women. This is more of a reference to the ancient hunter of Africa, who became part of the mythology of Hercules and also partly comes from the myths of Horus, Isis and Set.
And I want you to look carefully at this larger version of the image and note how everything seems to point or look at a curious activity in one part. Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
^^ Sorry I am not sure I get your point. Do you claim that Hercules and Mars were painted as dark-skinned because they were Africans?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Of course it's quite universal where males go out and about and females stay in and shaded for the former to be very noticeably darker than the latter.
But noting the palm of Hercules in this particular fresco, his colouring may indeed his partial African ancestry as per Greek mythology. On Greek pottery, Herakles sometimes displays a phenotype reminiscent of an African.
Can someone post the pot where Herakles is battling the Egyptian priest Busirus' men from Snowden? Myra?
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Of course it's quite universal where males go out and about and females stay in and shaded for the former to be very noticeably darker than the latter.
This explanation doesn't fly, when one considers situations like this:
quote:
People like Amr1 think that 'all' Kemetian art were 'symbolic', while at the same time, contradicting themselves with the notion that the "yellow" coloration of Women in paintings is actually due to their being indoors. The rational here is that, these women weren't exposed to the heat, and hence, were able to retain their 'light' skin tone, while their male mates were still 'brown' in tone....
Then you have depictions, showing the commoners working or engaged in some activity(s). When the depictions show women and men in the same tones, and in varying degrees, again, it is an indicator of the artist's attempt at expressing 'realistic' imagery. Good examples of this can be seen particularly in figurines, like this:
All depictions, show women and men working both 'indoors' and 'outdoors'.
*As a courtesy, oversized pictures are best left as links.
I agree that evidence doesn't point towards a complexion differentiation due to sun exposition in Egypt since most "female jobs" could be done outdoors like many "male" jobs could be performed indoors. I think the difference of complexion in Pompei art can hardly be explained by ethnic difference since this opposition is regularly found in this art with the same male (non African TMK)/female distribution: http://www.art-and-archaeology.com/roman/pom1.html Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
Herakles fighting Egyptian priests:
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
It is true that Greco-Roman paintings depict women in lighter complexions and men in darker, but the theory of men being tanned and women not is best applied to them since women in Greco-Roman societies were pretty much confined to the homes, whereas Egyptian women spent about as much time outdoors as men.
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
American scholar Catherine CHEAL pointed out that the dark/fair convention in Ancient Greece had little to do with reality since the convention was applied at a time where women were less enclosed in the home than at the time where both men & women are depicted with the same skin tone.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: It is true that Greco-Roman paintings depict women in lighter complexions and men in darker, but the theory of men being tanned and women not is best applied to them since women in Greco-Roman societies were pretty much confined to the homes, whereas Egyptian women spent about as much time outdoors as men.
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
Another example from China:
Here is the Royal Assyrian quote about Taharqa I mentioned above:
"His wives, his sons and [his] daughters [who]se bodies like his, have skins as black as asphalt".
cf. Dan'el KAHN "Taharqa, King of Kush and the Assyrians, JSSEA 31 (2004).
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Egyptian color conventions were obviously conventions and therefore not necessarily 100% true to life, especially in regards to skin color. Working outdoors or being indoors had nothing to do with it:
Interestingly enough no matter what color conventions the Egyptians used, modern reconstructions NEVER get it right. Most often these conventions allow them to make up fantasy stories with French, Brazilian and Iranian actors as opposed to Egyptians.....
It is especially funny how they feel the need to cast foreigners as Egyptians over and above locals, especially locals from Upper Egypt.
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
Etruscan fresco:
Aztec men & women from the "Codex Magliabecchi" Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Egyptian color conventions were obviously conventions and therefore not necessarily 100% true to life, especially in regards to skin color.
^ Agreed, though there is clear implied logic in a methodology in which Rm.t and Nshy are shown as darker and referred to as Blacks [km.t.nw.t], Asiatics and Magrehbi are shown as lighter as classed as reds [dshr.t].
And furthermore, nshy [southerners] are generally darker still than rm.t, Osirus and Isis are deemed of southernn origin and symbolically shown typically as Black skinned, and women are typically shown as lighter than men.
All of these symbolisms are rooted in realities, which may be simplified or exagerrated but nontheless speak directly to facts.
quote:Interestingly enough no matter what color conventions the Egyptians used, modern reconstructions NEVER get it right.
Eurocentrists get it right in terms of their own motivations which is - racial-megalomania, which requires some form of twisted conception that allows Europeans to see Ancient Egypt as a European society.
The interesting aspect of this fallacy is that it is never *directly* defended by European scholars, because it is patently ludicrous....however, nor do they ever speak out against or criticise the ws.t's racist delusions of grandeur masquerading as history, because they in effect tacitly encourage it.
After all this is the pseudo-scholarship culture that manufactured something called "the greek miracle", and anti-scientific -non answer- which exists soley to deny scientific proof of Greece's *non-miraculous* derivation from earlier Nile Valley and Mesopotamian cultures. Yet this illogical race mythology remains a stable of the ws.t education-as-propaganda discourse. Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
Re: There is nothing simply 'conventional' about the following; they are meant to communicate a sense of realism:
All depictions, show women and men working both 'indoors' and 'outdoors'.
Caeretan black-figure hydria, Late Archaic Greek, c. 510 B.C. Vienna Kunsthistorisches Museum, ANSA IV 3576.
Drawing: A. Furtwangler und K. Reichhold, Griechische Vasenmalerei; Auswahl hervorragender Vasenbilder (Miinchen, 1904), PI. 51.
Busiris was a legendary king in the Delta who, according to a Greek tradition, habitually slaughtered foreigners entering his country and sacrificed them to Zeus, until he vainly tried to do this to Heracles. The vase shows Heracles destroying Busiris and his priests. Various details refer to the customs and clothing of Egypt with remarkable precision.
A group of Egyptians hastens to come to the aid of the king, shown on the back of the vase. They have the usual equipment of Egyptian guards.
By Samuel David Ewing
This art reveals the Greek Herakles as an enormously muscled black African giant who is crushing evildoers beneath his feet, strangling and breaking the necks of evildoers with his barehands, as well as by trapping their throats between his elbow and bicep region, in his left hand he is holding a man in the air by his left ankle using the super-human might of his left arm, and finally the rest of the evildoers are fleeing from the Greek Herakles in terror. The story has to do with Herakles putting a stop to human sacrifices which were instituted by an evil group of cultist under the direction of King Busiris of Egypt. Heracles allowed them to attempt to use him as a sacrifice, then at the right moment he broke his bonds, slaying 1000 cultists including the king. The story resembles that told of Samson. The point to be emphasized here is that the Greek Herakles was originally thought of as a black man by the ancient Greek peoples before his features were altered by the later Eurocentric influence centuries later.
The Greek Heracles as a black man on this hydria is shown slaying black men (Egyptians ) who have features like himself, such as black skin, flat nose, flaring nostrils, large lips, and the wooly textured hair of Hamites. This same Herakles is also shown slaying fair skinned Greeks, and Europeans, the difference between these opponents and Herakles the black man leaves know room for doubt concerning who is of what race.
Martin Bernall, author of Black Athena, vol. 1, pages 476- 477 has this to say about this particular hydria; ". . . . . While both point out that Bousiris has black attendants and that Bousiris himself is portrayed as one on another vase, neither Boardman nor Snowden (1970, p.159 ) mentions the fact that the 'Greek hero Herakles' is depicted as a curly-haired African Black. This is something that the Aryan Model is completely unable to handle. I would like to add that I have seen photo-prints of this vase myself therefore I know Martin Bernall is telling the truth! Finally apparently it isn't mentioned that an equal amount of Bousiris' attendants on this vase are obviously European. [Source]
.
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: .
By Samuel David Ewing
This art reveals the Greek Herakles as an enormously muscled black African giant who is crushing evildoers beneath his feet, strangling and breaking the necks of evildoers with his barehands, as well as by trapping their throats between his elbow and bicep region, in his left hand he is holding a man in the air by his left ankle using the super-human might of his left arm, and finally the rest of the evildoers are fleeing from the Greek Herakles in terror...
Interesting. Good find.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Actually I think Nefertari (Elana Drago) does look somewhat black, even if she is really Brazilian.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
^^I understand, however the point being made is that they went 6,000 miles or so away from Egypt to find someone to play Nefertari as if NOBODY in Egypt could fit the bill, light skinned or otherwise. Brazilians are not Egyptians. Likewise, they went to Europe as if that is the only place that they could find someone to represent an Egyptian pharoah. This only makes sense if it is for the purposes of creating a piece of ENTERTAINMENT, but as something supposedly HISTORICALLY ACCURATE, it is obviously distortion. In fact, it is not even about entertainment, as opposed to the Eurocentric fantasy of what constitutes beauty and grace, which means European actors and mixed European models. This has NOTHING to do with what the AE actually looked like. The AE did not look like Europeans or Brazilians and there are plenty of Egyptians, especially those from UPPER EGYPT, who would be the MOST AUTHENTIC people to play Egyptians.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Thanks Myra! That's just the one I was asking for and this repro is more emphatic than the photo of the actual vase in Frank M. Snowden, Jr. Iconographical Evidence on the Black Populations in Greco-Roman Antiquity in Ladislas Bugner (gen. ed. The Image of the Black in Western Art Vol. 1, from the Pharaohs to the Fall of the Roman Empire Cambridge, Mass: Harvard University Press (dist.), 1976 p. 140 figs 150&151
The ironic thing is that here Snowden leaves Herakles partial "Africanity" unnoticed as done elsewhere with other personalities. Perhaps he feared to bring such notice up in writing but at least he brought the image to our eyes.
If you can expand what you began on NAs in Crete by scanning and posting figs 142, 147, 203, & 204, of what I take to be NAs, in one of the "Libyan" threads I'd be much obliged.
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: Heracles and Busiris King of the Delta
Caeretan black-figure hydria, Late Archaic Greek, c. 510 B.C. Vienna Kunsthistorisches Museum, ANSA IV 3576.
Drawing: A. Furtwangler und K. Reichhold, Griechische Vasenmalerei; Auswahl hervorragender Vasenbilder (Miinchen, 1904), PI. 51.
By Samuel David Ewing
This art reveals the Greek Herakles as an enormously muscled black African giant ...
The Greek Heracles as a black man on this hydria is shown slaying black men (Egyptians ) who have features like himself, such as black skin, flat nose, flaring nostrils, large lips, and [] wooly textured hair [Source]
.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: If you can expand what you began on NAs in Crete by scanning and posting figs 142, 147, 203, & 204, of what I take to be NAs, in one of the "Libyan" threads I'd be much obliged.
I can't find that thread. The figures you listed is in what book? Thanks
.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
The Image of the Black in Western Art , vol. 1, from the Pharaohs to the Fall of the Roman Empire, Cambridge, Mass: Harvard University Press, 1976
Fig. 142
Fig. 147
Fig. 203
Fig. 204
.
Posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh* (Member # 13372) on :
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: Heracles and Busiris King of the Delta
Caeretan black-figure hydria, Late Archaic Greek, c. 510 B.C. Vienna Kunsthistorisches Museum, ANSA IV 3576.
Drawing: A. Furtwangler und K. Reichhold, Griechische Vasenmalerei; Auswahl hervorragender Vasenbilder (Miinchen, 1904), PI. 51.
Busiris was a legendary king in the Delta who, according to a Greek tradition, habitually slaughtered foreigners entering his country and sacrificed them to Zeus, until he vainly tried to do this to Heracles. The vase shows Heracles destroying Busiris and his priests. Various details refer to the customs and clothing of Egypt with remarkable precision.
A group of Egyptians hastens to come to the aid of the king, shown on the back of the vase. They have the usual equipment of Egyptian guards.
By Samuel David Ewing
This art reveals the Greek Herakles as an enormously muscled black African giant who is crushing evildoers beneath his feet, strangling and breaking the necks of evildoers with his barehands, as well as by trapping their throats between his elbow and bicep region, in his left hand he is holding a man in the air by his left ankle using the super-human might of his left arm, and finally the rest of the evildoers are fleeing from the Greek Herakles in terror. The story has to do with Herakles putting a stop to human sacrifices which were instituted by an evil group of cultist under the direction of King Busiris of Egypt. Heracles allowed them to attempt to use him as a sacrifice, then at the right moment he broke his bonds, slaying 1000 cultists including the king. The story resembles that told of Samson. The point to be emphasized here is that the Greek Herakles was originally thought of as a black man by the ancient Greek peoples before his features were altered by the later Eurocentric influence centuries later.
The Greek Heracles as a black man on this hydria is shown slaying black men (Egyptians ) who have features like himself, such as black skin, flat nose, flaring nostrils, large lips, and the wooly textured hair of Hamites. This same Herakles is also shown slaying fair skinned Greeks, and Europeans, the difference between these opponents and Herakles the black man leaves know room for doubt concerning who is of what race.
Martin Bernall, author of Black Athena, vol. 1, pages 476- 477 has this to say about this particular hydria; ". . . . . While both point out that Bousiris has black attendants and that Bousiris himself is portrayed as one on another vase, neither Boardman nor Snowden (1970, p.159 ) mentions the fact that the 'Greek hero Herakles' is depicted as a curly-haired African Black. This is something that the Aryan Model is completely unable to handle. I would like to add that I have seen photo-prints of this vase myself therefore I know Martin Bernall is telling the truth! Finally apparently it isn't mentioned that an equal amount of Bousiris' attendants on this vase are obviously European. [Source]
.
Whoa Whoa..if the people dressed in white are Egyptians those are not black people..what is up with this?!? Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ I don't understand the question?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ When it comes to Vida, confusion is in order. LOL Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ I don't understand the question?
She's referring to the individuals that Herakles/Hercules is punishing, portrayed in a mix of 'black' hue and 'light' brown hue. Her point seems to be that if those individuals were Egyptians, then this should be indicative of ancient Egyptians not being 'black'.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^
I agree.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Whoo boy! That is a good one! LOL!
Posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh* (Member # 13372) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ I don't understand the question?
She's referring to the individuals that Herakles/Hercules is punishing, portrayed in a mix of 'black' hue and 'light' brown hue. Her point seems to be that if those individuals were Egyptians, then this should be indicative of ancient Egyptians not being 'black'.
You are you telling me these people look black to you? There is no wrong answer to this question by the way.
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*:
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ I don't understand the question?
She's referring to the individuals that Herakles/Hercules is punishing, portrayed in a mix of 'black' hue and 'light' brown hue. Her point seems to be that if those individuals were Egyptians, then this should be indicative of ancient Egyptians not being 'black'.
You are you telling me these people look black to you?
Wherein you cited me, have I told 'you' anything?
quote:Nice Vidadavida *sigh*:
There is no wrong answer to this question by the way.
In fact, I don't remotely understand your respond to my post, enough to even begin answering it.
Posted by Tyrannosaurus (Member # 3735) on :
^ IIRC, I've seen another version of this image in which Hercules is given medium brown as opposed to black skin. The Egyptians still had black skin though.
Are there any other ancient Greek depictions of ancient Egyptians? The only other image I know of is this:
Closeup:
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida You are you telling me these people look black to you? There is no wrong answer to this question by the way.
You are pretending to not know that the Greeks considered the ancient Egyptians to be Black?
Are you saying that these people are not Black?
There is no "wrong" answer by the way, but there is the usual passive-aggressive trolls response of a *non answer*. Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ I don't understand the question?
She's referring to the individuals that Herakles/Hercules is punishing, portrayed in a mix of 'black' hue and 'light' brown hue. Her point seems to be that if those individuals were Egyptians, then this should be indicative of ancient Egyptians not being 'black'.
One supposes such passive aggressive trolling is meant to deflect attention from what is actually denoted......
The Greek Heracles as a black man on this hydria is shown slaying black men (Egyptians ) who have features like himself, such as black skin, flat nose, flaring nostrils, large lips, and the wooly textured hair of Hamites Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
One supposes such passive aggressive trolling is meant to deflect attention from what is actually denoted......
The Greek Heracles as a black man on this hydria is shown slaying black men (Egyptians ) who have features like himself, such as black skin, flat nose, flaring nostrils, large lips, and the wooly textured hair of Hamites
Not to deflect attention away from the intended significance of the citation, but man, LOL @ "flaring nostrils" and the like. Is this the sort of description 'black men' should be reduced to?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^LOL Indeed. What gives?
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
There is a pic of a painted vase depicting "Amasis" by a Greek painter by the name of Exekias in a French version of J.BOARDMAN's book about black-figured Greek vases.
quote:Originally posted by Tyrannosaurus:
^ IIRC, I've seen another version of this image in which Hercules is given medium brown as opposed to black skin. The Egyptians still had black skin though.
Are there any other ancient Greek depictions of ancient Egyptians? The only other image I know of is this:
Closeup:
Posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh* (Member # 13372) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida You are you telling me these people look black to you? There is no wrong answer to this question by the way.
You are pretending to not know that the Greeks considered the ancient Egyptians to be Black?
Are you saying that these people are not Black?
There is no "wrong" answer by the way, but there is the usual passive-aggressive trolls response of a *non answer*.
Yes I would Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ And what exactly is this opinion based on (despite the fact that all the figures on the vase are literally painted black)??
Posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh* (Member # 13372) on :
No no sorry I am saying, yes I would consider these people blacks.
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
^^ Are you guys assuming that all black-complexioned characters from the black-figured Greek vases were literally "black-skinned"?
I really think we need to stop applying modern Western standards without trying to understand cultures we are actually studying.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ The primary function of race in the historical discouse of the west is precisely to apply white supremacist ideology with the intent of propagating a perverted revisionist history.
Thus there is no desire to -understand- a world view that is not affirming of white supremacy.
To understand ancient history, you must 1st reject ws.t propaganda.
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: ^^ Are you guys assuming that all black-complexioned characters from the black-figured Greek vases were literally "black-skinned"?
I really think we need to stop applying modern Western standards without trying to understand cultures we are actually studying.
The 'black' Herakles wasn't meant to depict a 'black' personality? Please tell us more, if so.
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
^^ I am not talking about "race" here, just referring to interpretations of people's complexions in artworks based on European Renaissance paintings' and similar standards which are irrelevant when it comes to the understanding on a large part of world's vernacular artworks. I really can't get how one can seriously claim that the black complexion of characters on black figured Greek vases can "prove" the actual blackness of the characters depicted.
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: ^^ I am not talking about "race" here
And nobody else is either.
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
I really can't get how one can seriously claim that the black complexion of characters on black figured Greek vases can "prove" the actual blackness of the characters depicted.
You mean like this?
Herakles is mythical character. On the vase in question, we see people with varying hue. Is there some deeper meaning attached to this choice of coloration, that transcends the idea that it is reference to skin hue?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
^^Yes the black complexion of the characters in this VERSION of the Hercules myth was desgined to portray Hercules as a black African with curly hair, which is symbolic of him being black African.
But there are OTHER depictions of Hercules that DO NOT have this style of portrayal. The symbolism, if you want to call it that, is obvious. The Greeks recognized various types of phenotypical diversity among various groups and were able to represent such diversity in their art.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: ^^ Are you guys assuming that all black-complexioned characters from the black-figured Greek vases were literally "black-skinned"?
No, at least I am not. I am more than knowledgeable about Greek art to know that many vases had figures painted in black and that the vast majority of these depicted Greeks themselves.
The key to identifying Africans let alone distinguishing them from Greeks was pointed out by several scholars including Lefkowitz who states how most Africans were portrayed with stereotyped features such as round noses, full lips, and even uncircumcised penises.
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: ^^ Are you guys assuming that all black-complexioned characters from the black-figured Greek vases were literally "black-skinned"?[/qb]
No, at least I am not. I am more than knowledgeable about Greek art to know that many vases had figures painted in black and that the vast majority of these depicted Greeks themselves.
The key to identifying Africans let alone distinguishing them from Greeks was pointed out by several scholars including Lefkowitz who states how most Africans were portrayed with stereotyped features such as round noses, full lips, and even uncircumcised penises.
Interesting, was Greek figures to the contrary? It would appear that circumcision was foreign [at least initially in antiquity] to Greeks, and was known to Africans. Does Herodotus ring a bell?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Excuse me! I meant to write circumcised penises! The Greeks depicted themselves as having uncircumcised ones!
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
I'm not sure about this very vase, but here is my take on it:
The overwhelming majority of black/fair hue distinctions in black-figured vases are regularly consistant with the theory of a gender distinction hypothesis, not with a realistic skin hue distribution.
I also remember seeing some BF vase with two warriors (one black, one fair) fighting two centaures (one black, the other fair). I also remember reading about black-headed and red chested characters.
Anyway, I'm not aware of clear color distinction used to distinguish skin hue and until showed otherwise contrary relying on internal BF Greek artistic evidence, I will keep on thinking about it being not a reference to this, and this explanation being a reference to extra-Greek artistic conventions, which is inconsistent with Greek evidence itself.
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: ^^ I am not talking about "race" here
And nobody else is either.
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
I really can't get how one can seriously claim that the black complexion of characters on black figured Greek vases can "prove" the actual blackness of the characters depicted.
You mean like this?
Herakles is mythical character. On the vase in question, we see people with varying hue. Is there some deeper meaning attached to this choice of coloration, that transcends the idea that it is reference to skin hue?
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
I'm not sure about this very vase, but here is my take on it:
The overwhelming majority of black/fair hue distinctions in black-figured vases are regularly consistant with the theory of a gender distinction hypothesis, not with a realistic skin hue distribution.
Which obviously was not applied in this case:
The repro of the vase in question...
quote:Please call me MIDOGBE:
I also remember seeing some BF vase with two warriors (one black, one fair) fighting two centaures (one black, the other fair). I also remember reading about black-headed and red chested characters.
Okay?
quote: Please call me MIDOGBE:
Anyway, I'm not aware of clear color distinction used to distinguish skin hue and until showed otherwise contrary relying on internal BF Greek artistic evidence, I will keep on thinking about it being not a reference to this, and this explanation being a reference to extra-Greek artistic conventions, which is inconsistent with Greek evidence itself.
Well, you've just been shown the repro above, yet again. This distinction in hue isn't my personal interpretation, it is what it is.
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
This is the regularity of the black/fair distribution among men & women in BF Greek vases that allows us to claim that this was likely used for gender distinction.
To my knowledge, there are no clear parallels of your hypothesis of the above vase using a distribution to denote a realistic color distinction in BF Greek art. So claiming this does so rather than being understood by any other explanation like color harmony (or whatever!) isn't based on BF Greek evidence, but on other artistic conventions that are probably different from the ones used in the vase we're talking about.
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
I'm not sure about this very vase, but here is my take on it:
The overwhelming majority of black/fair hue distinctions in black-figured vases are regularly consistant with the theory of a gender distinction hypothesis, not with a realistic skin hue distribution.
Which obviously was not applied in this case:
The repro of the vase in question...
quote:Please call me MIDOGBE:
I also remember seeing some BF vase with two warriors (one black, one fair) fighting two centaures (one black, the other fair). I also remember reading about black-headed and red chested characters.
Okay?
quote: Please call me MIDOGBE:
Anyway, I'm not aware of clear color distinction used to distinguish skin hue and until showed otherwise contrary relying on internal BF Greek artistic evidence, I will keep on thinking about it being not a reference to this, and this explanation being a reference to extra-Greek artistic conventions, which is inconsistent with Greek evidence itself.
Well, you've just been shown the repro above, yet again. This distinction in hue isn't my personal interpretation, it is what it is.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
The color contrast of Egyptian art is based on Egyptian artistic motifs. That motif is where you get the women painted pale and the men dark. The Greeks made even more extreme contrast by painting men jet black and women white.
However, what is being said here is that even within that framework the Greeks were able to portray a wide range of different types of people. Therefore the fact that the images were black and white does not mean that they were limited to only showing Greeks. The vase above which figures a man with distinctly African traits, along with others who have African traits as well as some without African traits, shows such diversity of representation.
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: This is the regularity of the black/fair distribution among men & women in BF Greek vases that allows us to claim that this was likely used for gender distinction.
You keep repeating this, and I keep telling you that we see 'men' in different hue in the picture in question. Do you see women in that picture? If so, where?
quote:Please call me MIDOGBE:
To my knowledge, there are no clear parallels of your hypothesis of the above vase using a distribution to denote a realistic color distinction in BF Greek art.
What hypothesis? You either see 'men' in distinct hue, or you don't. See post above - there's nothing to hypothesize here.
quote:Please call me MIDOGBE:
So claiming this does so rather than being understood by any other explanation like color harmony (or whatever!) isn't based on BF Greek evidence,
This makes no sense. Can you 'see' the vase, and its picture? If "seeing" with your own eye isn't evident enough, then I don't know what is.
quote:Please call me MIDOGBE:
but on other artistic conventions that are probably different from the ones used in the vase we're talking about.
We aren't talking about "other conventions", we are talking about what we are now 'seeing' on the vase in question.
Does anyone else NOT see the vase in question, enough to describe what they see?
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
^^ Just to make things clearer to me: Do you believe that the artist of the Heracles/Busiris vase used hue distinction to denote what he thought to be a skin color differentiation of the characters depicted due to the African or European/Asian/whatever origin he thought they had, like the author of this pic did?
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
^^ Just to make things clearer to me: Do you believe that the artist of the Heracles/Busiris vase used hue distinction to denote what he thought to be a skin color differentiation of the characters depicted due to the African or European/Asian/whatever origin he thought they had, like the author of this pic did?
To the extent that I see males in contrasting hues? Yes, pending objective primary text documentation accompanying the said image indicating otherwise.
Now how about answering the specifics of my questions to you.
Ps - I don't know where you got the "Asian/European/whatever" idea from. This is what was posted along with the images on the other page:
The vase shows Heracles destroying Busiris and his priests. Various details refer to the customs and clothing of Egypt with remarkable precision. Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
I'll repeat my point on this vase and BF Greek vases one last time because you clearly don't understand what I've been saying all along, and I don't think I understand your point either.
The use of skin color differentiation of anthropomorphic characters has been very diverse and varied among world cultures; some cultures have been using it to distinguish genders; others by trying to represent skin hues in a realistic way; others to attribute characteristics of strength, weakness and others to the depicted characters; others by color harmony, etc.
As I have been saying, favorizing one of these hypothesis over others, without any regularity/or sure occurrence of it to explain color distribution into artworks, is just biased. Greek BF artworks' characters' hue distinctions are mostly based on gender distinction although they are based on some others, which cannot be explained for sure by realism, especially with dubious examples depicting 2 charcoal-like skinned/snow-like haired and 2 snowlike skinned and charcoal-haired Egyptian priests as well as a lack of sure parallel uses in the said art.
I'm not aware of other sure occurrences of realistic hue distinction in Greek BF art, so I will take such interpretations as biased until substantial counter evidence is presented.
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: This is the regularity of the black/fair distribution among men & women in BF Greek vases that allows us to claim that this was likely used for gender distinction.
You keep repeating this, and I keep telling you that we see 'men' in different hue in the picture in question. Do you see women in that picture? If so, where?
quote:Please call me MIDOGBE:
To my knowledge, there are no clear parallels of your hypothesis of the above vase using a distribution to denote a realistic color distinction in BF Greek art.
What hypothesis? You either see 'men' in distinct hue, or you don't. See post above - there's nothing to hypothesize here.
quote:Please call me MIDOGBE:
So claiming this does so rather than being understood by any other explanation like color harmony (or whatever!) isn't based on BF Greek evidence,
This makes no sense. Can you 'see' the vase, and its picture? If "seeing" with your own eye isn't evident enough, then I don't know what is.
quote:Please call me MIDOGBE:
but on other artistic conventions that are probably different from the ones used in the vase we're talking about.
We aren't talking about "other conventions", we are talking about what we are now 'seeing' on the vase in question.
Does anyone else NOT see the vase in question, enough to describe what they see?
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
I'll repeat my point on this vase and BF Greek vases one last time because you clearly don't understand what I've been saying all along, and I don't think I understand your point either.
In which case, I'll be repeating my simple enough questions where necessary, which puzzling enough, you weren’t able to understand the first time around.
quote:Please call me MIDOGBE:
The use of skin color differentiation of anthropomorphic characters has been very diverse and varied among world cultures; some cultures have been using it to distinguish genders; others by trying to represent skin hues in a realistic way; others to attribute characteristics of strength, weakness and others to the depicted characters; others by color harmony, etc.
Irrelevant, unless you have a concise and substantive point to make about any of these practices on the specific image at hand.
quote:Please call me MIDOGBE:
As I have been saying, favorizing one of these hypothesis over others, without any regularity/or sure occurrence of it to explain color distribution into artworks, is just biased.
And I have said:
What hypothesis? You either see 'men' in distinct hue, or you don't. See post above - there's nothing to hypothesize here.
^Clearly, if anyone here isn't paying attention to what is being said, that would have to be you.
quote:Please call me MIDOGBE:
Greek BF artworks' characters' hue distinctions are mostly based on gender distinction although they are based on some others, which cannot be explained for sure by realism,
Who said anything about 'realism'? You've already been informed about Herakles being a mythical character.
quote:Please call me MIDOGBE:
especially with dubious examples depicting 2 charcoal-like skinned/snow-like haired and 2 snowlike skinned and charcoal-haired Egyptian priests as well as a lack of sure parallel uses in the said art.
What is 'dubious' about the image in question; the said traits? The piece that was initially posted along with the image in the previous page was certainly capable of describing what is 'seen' on the image.
BTW, what is this snow-like hair and snow-like complexion that you are referring to? I suspect you are referring to the light brownish tones of these traits (?)
quote: Please call me MIDOGBE:
I'm not aware of other sure occurrences of realistic hue distinction in Greek BF art, so I will take such interpretations as biased until substantial counter evidence is presented.
Goes back to my fourth reply [counting from top to bottom] to your points in this post. Who said anything about 'realism'. Is it not possible for the artist to invoke diversity in the characters in question, without trying to depict 'realism'?
E.g. Cartoon caricatures of humans or animals are known to portray diversity in the characters, usually as light-hearted reminders of actual diversity in the animate world, but should that be interpreted as ‘realism’?
Ps - What is “BF” supposed to mean?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Ancient Greek black-figure vases are a norm. Of course the characters depicted thereon are for the most part north Meds.
Yet when, as in our case of Herakles on this one particular vase, when physical features of face ad hair are those not normally associated with Greek majority population we must recognize that as fact.
This is not the only vase with facial/hair features that lead us to conclude the Africanity of the subject.
Keeping in mind the role Africa plays in Greek mythos its not surprising at all to find littoral and inner African phenotypes in Greek art.
Just consider Herakles' lineage. How many generations back need we go before uncovering an African ancestor? In my opinion the painter was relating the fact from the Herakles myth of that hero's partial African ancestry.
There is an intimate involvement of Herakles with Africa as evidenced in his Twelve Labors, perhaps again because of his partial African descent.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ And again, many Greek paintings were in black paint but the Greeks were careful to distinguish Africans from themselves. Africans were usually depicted with certain stereotypical features, whether black paint or not.
By the way, Takruri do you have any of those pics of black Africans from the Minoan or Mycenaean frescoes?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
There are images of Africans (not black Africans) or people of African features common to both littoral and inner Africa dispersed throughout this forum's pages.
I currently don't have the time to scour the tens of thousands of pages here and extract the posted images and transfer them to a thread solely devoted to them, but its an excellent idea Djehuti and I hope someone (Myra?) acts on it and starts putting up whatever pics they have available.
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
alTakruri & Djehuti: I agree with you and my whole point in this thread was that the "Africaness" of the African characters depicted in BF Greek Art wasn't expressed by skin coloring.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Yes, that's precisely what I understood you to be saying, that black-figures doesn't automatically equate to Africans unless the phenotype or literary allusions point to such conclusion.
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: alTakruri & Djehuti: I agree with you and my whole point in this thread was that the "Africaness" of the African characters depicted in BF Greek Art wasn't expressed by skin coloring.
Which nonetheless has no bearings, nor answers the questions you were asked, on the issue of diversity that came up in our exchange.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Herodotus, in his Histories 2.48, gives his impression on this topic. Being a Greek, he may be very relevant. A good analytic source on Greek mythology showing connections throughout the ancient world is Robert Graves' The Greek Myths.
quote: the Greeks, however (those I mean who gave the son of Amphitryon that name), took the name from the Egyptians, and not the Egyptians from the Greeks, is I think clearly proved, among other arguments, by the fact that both the parents of Heracles, Amphitryon as well as Alcmena, were of Egyptian origin.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Keeping in mind the role Africa plays in Greek mythos its not surprising at all to find littoral and inner African phenotypes in Greek art.
Just consider Herakles' lineage. How many generations back need we go before uncovering an African ancestor? In my opinion the painter was relating the fact from the Herakles myth of that hero's partial African ancestry.
There is an intimate involvement of Herakles with Africa as evidenced in his Twelve Labors, perhaps again because of his partial African descent.
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
Here is a picture of a procession of King Amenhotep III & Queen Tiye's statues from Ameneminet's tomb.
My take on this would be that this couple of statues tends to confirm the theory of a dark/fair gender distinction in Egyptian art; in this depiction only the clearly symbolic art exhibits the traditional convention while the rest of the cast, in a realistic & particular activity, doesn't (...but there are no other women in the pic either, so...) . Depictions of Tiye elsewhere also show her in the same brown complexion as Amenhotep as far as I know.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
The best portrait of Tiye we have is this painted bust:
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
The Greeks depicted themselves as having uncircumcised ones!
