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Clyde Winters Member # 10129	posted Responses To This Article Low Levels of Genetic Divergence across Geographically and Linguistically Diverse Populations from India Rosenberg NA, Mahajan S, Gonzalez-Quevedo C, Blum MGB, Nino-Rosales L, et al. PLoS Genetics Vol. 2, No. 12, e215 doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.0020215 High Levels of Genetic Divergence across Indian Populations Clyde Winters (04 May 2007) High Levels of Genetic Divergence across Indian Populations Dr. Clyde Winters Submitted Date: May 02, 2007 Published: May 04, 2007 Rosenberg et al. (2006) argue that there is a low level of genetic divergence across geographically and linguistically diverse Indian populations based on their analysis of Indo-Aryan and Dravidian speakers from India. East and Northeast Indian tribes speak Austro-Asiatic and Tibeto-Burman languages (respectively) (1-2). The Austro-Asiatic people were probably the original inhabitants of India. Kumar et al. have presented convincing Y-chromosome evidence that Austro-Asiatic people of India and Southeast Asia belonging to the haplogroup O-M95 originated in India, particularly among the Mundari (1-3). They probably migrated to Southeast Asia 40,000ybp. The Dravidian and Indo-Aryan people probably belong to the same population and share a Proto-Dravidian MRCA. Due to early Dravidian settlement in Northern India there is a Dravidian substratum in Indo-Aryan (4-5). There are Dravidian loans in the Rg Veda (6-8), even though Aryan recorders of this work were situated in the Punjab, which was probably occupied around this time by Dravidians (4). In conclusion, the presence of East Asian and Austro-Asiatic specific mtDNA in India makes it clear that there is extensive genetic divergence across geographically and linguistically diverse Indian populations (1-3). Moreover, use of Indo-Aryan and Dravidian speakers as representative samples of diverse Indian populations was not an accurate example of the linguistic and geographical diversity of Indian populations because TMRCA of the Indo-Aryan and Dravidian speakers in India was probably a Proto-Dravidian (5). References: 1. Cordaux R, Aunger R, Bentley G, Nasidze I, Sirajuddin SM, et al. (2004) Independent origins of Indian caste and tribal paternal lineages. Curr Biol 14: 231–235. 2. Cordaux R, Saha N, Bentley GR, Aunger R, Sirajuddin SM, et al. (2003) Mitochondrial DNA analysis reveals diverse histories of tribal populations from India. Eur J Hum Genet 11: 253–264. 3. Kumar V, Reddy ANS, Babu JP, et al. (2007). Y-chromosome evidence suggests a common paternal heritage of Austro-Asiatic populations. BMC Evolutionary Biology, 7:47. 4. Winters C (1989). Review on Dr. Asko Parpola’s ‘The Coming of the Aryans’. International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics 18 (2): 98-127. 5. 1988c. The Proto-Dravidians in Central Asia. Journal of Tamil Studies 31: 73-76. 6. Emeneau M and T Burrow. 1962. Dravidian Borrowing from Indo-Aryan. Berkeley: University of California Press. 7. Southworth FC (1977). Lexical evidence for early contacts between Indo-Aryan and Dravidian. Proc. Of the Conf. On Aryan and Non-Aryan in India, 1976. University of Michigan. 8. ISDL. 1983. Report on the Dravidian Languages. International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics 12(1): 227. Source: PLoS Genetics, 04 May 2007 web page Indus Valley Dancer
Clyde Winters Member # 10129	posted PLoS Journals The Public Library of Science (PLoS) is a nonprofit organization committed to making the world’s scientific and medical literature freely available online, without restrictions on use or further distribution, free from private or government control. For more information on our organization and mission, please visit our Web site. PLoS publishes peer-reviewed, open access scientific and medical journals that include original research as well as timely feature articles. All PLoS articles are immediately freely accessible online, are deposited in the free public archive PubMed Central, and can be redistributed and reused according to the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution License. PLoS Genetics reflects the full breadth and interdisciplinary nature of genetics and genomics research by publishing outstanding original contributions in all areas of biology - human studies as well as research on model organisms - from mice and flies, to plants and bacteria. web page .
Arwa Member # 11172	posted Well DONE!!! Dr. Clyde
Quetzalcoatl Member # 12742	posted quote: Originally posted by Arwa: Well DONE!!! Dr. Clyde Just as was the case in Clyde's previous letter to a refereed journal, this does not count as a refereed publication, see: From: PLoS Genetics <plosgenetics@plos.org> [ Subject: RE: editorial policy Date: May 8, 2007 9:58 AM Thanks for your message – good question. Reader Responses are intended to be more informal and to encourage community dialogue. As such, they do not undergo peer review by our editors or by external referees (whereas correspondence is treated differently and is peer reviewed). Instead, Reader Responses are reviewed by staff (to check they are not obscene, abusive, defamatory, libelous, or in some other way illegal or discriminatory; otherwise, we will post them). I hope this helps. Best wishes, Andy Andy Collings Publications Manager, PLoS Genetics plosgenetics@plos.org / http://www.plosgenetics.org/ Email Alerts: http://register.plos.org/
Arwa Member # 11172	posted Karl Smart, aka Quetzalcoatl. If you are so smarter than Dr. Clyde, why don't send an article and show us what you are useful of?
Quetzalcoatl Member # 12742	posted quote: Originally posted by Arwa: Karl Smart, aka Quetzalcoatl. If you are so smarter than Dr. Clyde, why don't send an article and show us what you are useful of? just keeping clear what constitutes a "refereed publication" and what doesn't.
Djehuti Member # 6698	posted Just to let you know, the Austro-asian speakers of northeast India are quite different in looks than the Austro-asian Mundari speakers of India. The Austro-asian speakers of Northeast India like the Khasis are linguistically more akin to and phenotypically no different from the Austro-asian groups of Southeast Asia are peoples like Cambodians and Vietnamese who are phenotypically called "mongoloid" [I hate the word]. Y-chromosomal Haplogroup O is found throughout East Asia as well as southeast Asia from Malaysians, to Filipinos, to Chinese, Koreans, etc. I don't know what lineages the Mundari have, but of course the lineages of India are very divergent and diverse simply because they are very ancient.
Clyde Winters Member # 10129	posted quote: Originally posted by Djehuti: The Austro-asian speakers of Northeast India like the Khasis are linguistically more akin to and phenotypically no different from the Austro-asian groups of Southeast Asia are peoples like Cambodians and Vietnamese who are phenotypically called "mongoloid" [I hate the word]. In the anthropological literature these "Mongoloid" People, are often referred to as Classical Mongoloid because they preceed the Chinese and Korean type. .
rasol Member # 4592	posted ^ And what specific characteristics in your view would differeniate a 'so called' classical mongoloid from a modern japanese and chinese. Also what study objectifies and clarifies this supposed distinction? Thanks in advance.
Clyde Winters Member # 10129	posted quote: Originally posted by rasol: ^ And what specific characteristics in your view would differeniate a 'so called' classical mongoloid from a modern japanese and chinese. Also what study objectifies and clarifies this supposed distinction? Thanks in advance. I assume this was based on osteological measurements. .
rasol Member # 4592	posted ...or typological thinking which is currently outdated.
yazid904 Member # 7708	posted rasol, If you look at groups from Northern Thailand, Burma, Hill Tribes of Northern Indian, and Cambodia (amongst other places) you will note a type of 'aboriginal' (I am not an anthropolist) 'osteological' look that defines them. I have not idea what that countenance can or may be called and 'Mongoloid' does seem non-sensical regarding the nomenclature. Compare to the Japanese and Chinese 'look' and it may be a condition of diet and environment over the millenium! I do not know. There is a difference! A hypothesis question. How and why did that distinction come about between the 'aboriginals' in asia vs what we see as modern in the presence of Japanese and Chinese? I am not sure! I am trying to look beyond black and white so please be not offended. Just my thoughts on the matter.
rasol Member # 4592	posted quote: If you look at groups from Northern Thailand, Burma, Hill Tribes of Northern Indian, and Cambodia (amongst other places) you will note a type of 'aboriginal' (I am not an anthropolist) 'osteological' look that defines them. Characterised by what specifics? quote: I have not idea what that countenance can or may be called and 'Mongoloid' does seem non-sensical regarding the nomenclature. Compare to the Japanese and Chinese 'look' and it may be a condition of diet and environment over the millenium! I do not know. There is a difference! Which is? quote: A hypothesis question. How and why did that distinction come about between the 'aboriginals' in asia vs what we see as modern in the presence of Japanese and Chinese? Impossible to answer this question, if the prior questions are not answered.
Djehuti Member # 6698	posted ^ Indeed. I have definitely heard of the term "classical Mongoloid" from old anthropological descriptions (by Westerners) all too many times, but I am still eluded as to what that means. What seperates a "classical mongoloid" from a "non-classical mongoloid"??
yazid904 Member # 7708	posted I am a neophyte in the matter but I cannot say why the Burmese phenotype is 'classical' and the Japanese is non classical. The Chinese appear in between. I really do not know. My primary hypothesis is that diet is a major influence and my secondary is that the Burmese has less outside influences (limited back and forward migrations) so they reflect the pool of a static aboriginal population! Applying that same thing to Japan appears to not apply but the presence of the Ainu as an aboriginal presence is noteworthy. Though unrelated in a previous thread, I mentioned (based on an "Animal Planet" episode), a Russian farm were raising foxes for their furs and the caged ones were difficult to control. They did an experiment where they separated the "flight" responders from the "fight" responders and the former not only changed behavioural aspects but this was reflected in the various colours and textures of their coat and they became like dogs in external characteristics and disposition. Changes in mouth structure and placement were evident! The implications are far fetching regarding human interaction and potential! Volunatry, of course.
rasol Member # 4592	posted quote: I am a neophyte in the matter but I cannot say why the Burmese phenotype is 'classical' and the Japanese is non classical. The Chinese appear in between. I really do not know. The term is rarely found in professional anthropology, and most often found on the web and utilised by pseudos. Yazid: Can you tell us of a current anthropologist who actually uses this term?
yazid904 Member # 7708	posted I did not get it from any anthropologist! I have been in Asia so I have seen the difference (Burmese, Japanese and Chinese) but again I have no source other than what I saw. My Chinese model does not include cities liek Shanghai, Beijing, etc because as they are more capitalistic in view, they use more makeup to cover the natural hue of their faces. Places like Burma, Hill Tribe India, are far removed from modern cities. As I stated they are my views only. I again get back some basic hypothesis with Africa and West Asia (as they say)! Which groups are the true representatives of Africa? Which groups arew the truer representatives of Asia? WHich group are the true representative of India? Can we say Tamil? WHy or Why not? Is it that their hue is to dark? Are African AMericans the true inheritors of Ethiopian culture? WHy or WHy not? Is it because they are African, or because East Africa is not the real home of African AMericans? COming back to Asia, whichcountry represents the real Asia? Burma, Japan or Chinese! Why or Why not? Does it have to do with which Asian country is most represented in USA? I am only asking question my own way in the most logical!!
Clyde Winters Member # 10129	posted quote: Originally posted by yazid904: I did not get it from any anthropologist! I have been in Asia so I have seen the difference (Burmese, Japanese and Chinese) but again I have no source other than what I saw. My Chinese model does not include cities liek Shanghai, Beijing, etc because as they are more capitalistic in view, they use more makeup to cover the natural hue of their faces. Places like Burma, Hill Tribe India, are far removed from modern cities. As I stated they are my views only. I again get back some basic hypothesis with Africa and West Asia (as they say)! Which groups are the true representatives of Africa? Which groups arew the truer representatives of Asia? WHich group are the true representative of India? Can we say Tamil? WHy or Why not? Is it that their hue is to dark? Are African AMericans the true inheritors of Ethiopian culture? WHy or WHy not? Is it because they are African, or because East Africa is not the real home of African AMericans? COming back to Asia, whichcountry represents the real Asia? Burma, Japan or Chinese! Why or Why not? Does it have to do with which Asian country is most represented in USA? I am only asking question my own way in the most logical!! This term was popular in the writings of Chang, author of several great books on Chinese archaeology. It would appear that this term may reflect the fact that the earliest skeletons are of small-size people. This corresponds to groups like the Filippino, Vietnamese, Indonesians and etc. Some of the members of these groups may also have negroid features. In most case, unless the people are mixed you will find that Mongolians, Chinese and Koreans are slightly taller than these other groups. .
Djehuti Member # 6698	posted quote: Originally posted by Clyde Winters: This term was popular in the writings of Chang, author of several great books on Chinese archaeology. It would appear that this term may reflect the fact that the earliest skeletons are of small-size people. This corresponds to groups like the Filippino, Vietnamese, Indonesians and etc. Some of the members of these groups may also have negroid features.... 'Negroid' features like broad faces and broad noses which are as invalid as 'caucasoid' features like narrow faces and narrow noses.
Clyde Winters Member # 10129	posted quote: Originally posted by Djehuti: quote: Originally posted by Clyde Winters: This term was popular in the writings of Chang, author of several great books on Chinese archaeology. It would appear that this term may reflect the fact that the earliest skeletons are of small-size people. This corresponds to groups like the Filippino, Vietnamese, Indonesians and etc. Some of the members of these groups may also have negroid features.... 'Negroid' features like broad faces and broad noses which are as invalid as 'caucasoid' features like narrow faces and narrow noses. Are you denying that anthropologists often described these people as Negritos? .
rasol Member # 4592	posted Djehuti is saying the terms are invalid today and he is right. When we ask for a clear definition of terms and do not get one, but rather a discourse that goes in a circle you are actually evidencing why the terms are invalid.