posted
According to Hebrew mythology, the different ethnicities of Homo sapiens descended from three sons: Ham, Shem, and Japheth. People used to interpret this as the Hebrews' explanation for phenotypical diversity (Hamites being dark-skinned, Japhethites being fair-skinned, and Shemites having dusky complexions), but some have expressed skepticism of this belief (the Bible does not specifically describe the appearances of Ham, Shem, or Japheth). If this isn't the case, what was the purpose of dividing humanity into Japhethites, Shemites, and Hamites?
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ There are different opinions of course, and it is relgious mythology and so subject to interpretation.
My opinion is that this is derived from kemetic construct of Khem, Namu and Tamehu.
Note: i'm not saying it's a replica, but the idea of explaing human diversity thru religious mythology of distinct lineages possibly is derived by the hebrew from the kemetian.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Yes that's the warped English translation based on their despising dark skin.
The Hebrew authors of the text in question held no such contempt. This bit of Hebrew scripture is the first statement of BLACK AND BEAUTIFUL (a full two thousand five hundred yeas before the USA black power movement adopted the phrase) in history.
When the Yemini recording artist Shimi Tabori sang it on an English language release he used the conjunctive AND, which is also what was printed on the LP jacket and the record label.
Since Tabori, like 99.9% of Yemini Jews, has spoken Hebrew from birth and knows English as second language (in Israel) his translation is accurate correct and valid.
It reflects what we know from the Hebrews and from even the post era Judaeans:
quote: Shem was especially blessed black and beautiful, Hham was blessed black like the raven, and Yapheth was blessed white all over.
PIRQE DE RABBI ELIEZER 28a
quote: ... the priest shall look on the plague; and, behold, if the appearance thereof be deeper than the skin, and there be in it yellow thin hair, then the priest shall pronounce him unclean: it is a scall, it is leprosy of the head or of the beard.
And, less some fool think a blond haired, white skinned or reddish white skinned leper was something beautiful in Hebrew eyes:
quote: when the cloud was removed from over the Tent, behold, Miriam was leprous, as white as snow; and Aaron looked upon Miriam; and, behold, she was leprous.
And Aaron said unto Moses: ...Let her not, I pray, be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother's womb.'
Numbers 12:10-12
The appearance of a blond white person to ancient Hebrews was as if they were a miscarriage or a stillbirth and was frightening.
Later, after getting used to white peoples of Europe from seeing them suffused throughout the Roman empire, they excused Germans from all being lepers even though the descendants of Gehazi were know as congenital lepers.
quote: The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever.' And he went out from his presence a leper as white as snow.
2 Kings 5:27
Yes, the correct translation is "I am black and beautiful" or alternately if one prefers, "I am dark and lovely."
In that day and time there was no reason for any black to be ashamed of their colour. For Hebrews, a Kushi's beauty was his skin as was the Aithiop's in Grecian eyes.
quote:Originally posted by Yom:
quote:Originally posted by vidadavida:
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:kame black kemi black kmme black kmom be, become black
Anok ang ou Keme' nefer (Coptic; Song of Solomon) I am Black and Beautiful.
*snickering* that was the nail in the coffin good source!!! It should be done now.
Why's that, because of the quotation? Well, the usual English translation of that verse is actually "I am black but comely."
quote:Originally posted by Achillobator: If this isn't the case, what was the purpose of dividing humanity into Japhethites, Shemites, and Hamites?
The Bible first and foremost is a Covenental Document with glaring Federalist undertones.
In the Bible there is no race per say, but Family Clans headed by a Patriarch/Father. The Father determines the god of the family, the occupation of the family, and who will be married into the family and out of the family. The decisions of the Covenant Head i.e the Father or the Patriarch is imposed upon the family.
Therefore in the Bible, if a Father is obedient, his family usually partakes of these blessings, if a Father is disobedient the family usually partakes of the curses.
Noah was obedient, and Noah's 3 sons partake of his blessings. When Noah's sons came of age and they began to develop their own clan unit, each son became responsible.
Previously in the Bible we saw this with Adam and Eve. Adam sin, and being the federal head, his sons Cain and Abel suffered likewise from his dispossession of Eden.
Cain being disobedient, his clan suffered his curses, Seth being obedient and his clan got blessings which continued through Noah. And it is the expansion and the multiplication of these family units that the Bible traces and considers the population of the world.
Thus the Bible does not consider race as a legitimate manner to separate groups only by Covenental Head. This is why throughout the Bible one sees such things as the Ruebenites, Canaanites, Jebusites, Elamites, Ishmaelites etc. All these indicate the Federal Head or the Covenental Head of the particular people group.
Now expanding as to how race came into play. It is only natural that when certain family units become isolated certain genes became isolated as well which these resulted in the superficial racial appearances of persons.
Posts: 134 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
^You are correct about your interpretation of the Bible when it came to grouping people. The classifications the Bible uses for people are nations, ethnicities, and tribes. Physical appearance comes up but it is only secondary. Thus the Hebrews distinguished Western Kushi (blacks) who are Africans from Eastern Kushi.
However, you kind of lost it when you began mixing Biblical scripture with science. Phenotype is a result of adaptation to an environment and not necessarily isolation. Thus since humanity originated in Africa, their original color was 'black'. Many indigenous/aboriginal groups who live in the tropics have preserved this skin color while those who moved away to less sunny climates did not.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
can you name the source for Shem being "Black and beautiful"? Thanks.
Don't get your hopes up Israel Semites aren't and never were black and even if they were they weren't central or west African like African Americans.
the Holy Falasha Ethiopian Book called the Kebra Negast, once again proving the Semetis are not black:
Chapter 64. How the Daughter of PHARAOH Seduced SOLOMON "...And she answered and said unto him, "Thy son hath carried away thy Lady ZION, thy son whom thou hast begotten, who springeth from an alien people into which God hath not commanded you to marry, that is to say, from an ETHIOPIAN woman, who is not of thy colour, and is not akin to thy country, and who is, moreover, black."
Posts: 271 | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
^Of course, there was never an issue that the ancient Hebrews were not black.
Even Exodus describes an account where God punishes Moses' sister for chastising Moses for marrying Zipporah, a black Midianted woman.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Achillobator: ...what was the purpose of dividing humanity into Japhethites, Shemites, and Hamites?
The purpose was for confusion & control and to give a body of people having difficulty finding a historical footing within Ancient achievements and trace of ancient civilization a synthetic and artificial history for an ultimate goal of pride now turned into what is now known as White Supremacy.
"Japhethites, Shemites, and Hamites" are being paraded as being 3 different races which is impossible. If all races originated in African and the process of becoming another race theoretically takes tens of thousands of years or more, it is absolutely impossible for a person to biologically birth three different races.
"Japhethites, Shemites, and Hamites" are likely to be the same race as all Black Africans except they were probably nations/tribes and probably separated by belief, family names and so on. Not by skin color or skin tone. In other words, Japhethites and Shemites were not racially different from Hamites.
Yeah, I said it, They wus all BLACK!!! and What? Prove dey wus not! I di'nt think so!
Posts: 179 | From: United States | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
From what I've read wherever the those that call themseves Jews migrated to they interbred with the populace, despite that their version of god, told them not to.
Their is a group in central Africa called the LEMBA who have been geneticaly proven to be the descendents of Moses's brother Aaron. Google them.
Also the Ethiopians Jews who practiced a version of the religion that predated all the racist rhetoric in the talmud.
Also their have been several books written on the cultural similarities between the ancient Hebrew religion and continental african culture.
I also read the rest of that quote from the Kebra Negast, it seems pharoahs daughtwer was needling Solomon because he wouldnt worship her gods,
she says: "well you had a baby by an black women, an ethiopian whom god told you not to mess with"
to which he replies: "yeah well you and her from the same family.. and what!!!???
As for the Black Hebrew Isrealites they are just a cult, despite that, they put their money where their mouth was and migrated to isreal where they were given citizenship. And from what I hear live a very positive lifestyle.
The "Hebrew Isrealites" are actual African Americans born and raised in the U.S.
Also, the ancient Elamites were not a Semitic speaking people but were predecessors of the Persians in Iran who spoke a language not closely related to any other known language.
[ 12. April 2007, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: Horus_Den_1 ]
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Can't you see I fully cited the reference source directly following the quote?
I'll also mention Jewish folklore has it that a voice from heaven declared everything that particular rabbi said was always correct.
Fig 1 Three "chief elders" of the Judaean city Lachish bow before Sennacherib. From James B. Pritchard's THE ANCIENT NEAR EAST VOL I net copyright 1997 al~Takruri
Figs 2&3 Defeated Judahite soldiery of Lachish (closeup profiles and fuller scene)
Viewers of Assyrian art notice the very similar features shared by Elamites and Israelites. Many printed and web sources have in fact mistakenly used Assyrian portraiture of Elamites as Judahites. Mind you, the series from Sennacherib's palace in Nineveh are the only indisputably authentic and oldest (circa 700 BCE) images of "Jews."
quote:Originally posted by Israel: Then AlTakruri,
can you name the source for Shem being "Black and beautiful"? Thanks.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
Both white people and black people biased against Jews and even most European Ashkenazi Jews themselves hate to deal with the reality of the physical features of the Y*hudiym/Judahites/Jews in the 8th century BCE depicted above.
What serves to confirm the ethnic reality depicted by Judah's Assyrian conquerers is the discovery of an ossuary at Lachish dated to the time of the conquest. It is the largest sample of Israelite remains and comes from a city that was populated the previous 500 years by Israelites. 695 crania of all ages and both genders were uncovered.
D. L. Risdon in BIOMETRIKA 1939 31:99-166 reports the Lachish cranial series has its closest resemblance to the 4th dynasty series from Deshasheh and Medum in Lower Egypt and the 18th dynasty samples from Thebes and Abydos in Upper Egypt. Cranial samples from other Palestinian sites (Gezer, Megiddo) agree with the Lachish cranium. Thus we have a clear African "racial" continuum in the Hebrews and Egyptians.
The phrase "black and beautiful" ( sh*hhora w*nawa ) originates from a Hebrew document, Song of Songs 1:5, where an Israelite woman from Shunem exclaims her sun enhanced ebon beauty to some color and class struck dusky members of the royal household who kept themselves behind palace walls out of sunlight. For the Shulammite to have tanned black she must have already been very brown.
In the midrash (Hebrew legendary lore) Shem teamed up with Hham in the war against Yapheth, progenitor of the northern people of pallour. The PIRQE DE RIBBI ELI`EZER 28a classes Shem with people of colour. It says that Shem was especially blessed black and beautiful, Hham was blessed black like the raven, and Yapheth was blessed white all over.
Josephus, a Judahite writer of the 1st century CE, agrees with the Egyptian Cherilus' description of Israelites conscripted into Xerxes' army as having the visage of "smoke hardened horseheads." This refered to their high cheekbones and prominent jaws, as seen in the conquest of Lachish depictions, and their smokey "soot" dark complexions (Against Apion I.22).
Tacitus, a younger contemporary of Josephus, lists common Roman opinions on Jewish origins. He wrote that many were assured Judahites were descendents of Kushites (The Histories V.2). Is this a view lurking within Amos 9:7?
quote:Are ye not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? saith the LORD. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Syrians from Kir?
The idea that the Israelites were some kind of Caucasian comes from viewing too many European Renaissance fanciful paintings of Bible stories and East Mediterranean idylls.
Though for the most part enjoying amicable relations today the still darker skinned Jews of the Maghreb, Ethiopia, Yemen, and India, occasionally suffer discrimination at the hands of the descendents of those who adopted the laws of the people and came, through the vicissitudes of history, to take over the leadership of `Am Yisra'el (the People Israel).
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Achillobator: According to Hebrew mythology, the different ethnicities of Homo sapiens descended from three sons: Ham, Shem, and Japheth. People used to interpret this as the Hebrews' explanation for phenotypical diversity (Hamites being dark-skinned, Japhethites being fair-skinned, and Shemites having dusky complexions), but some have expressed skepticism of this belief (the Bible does not specifically describe the appearances of Ham, Shem, or Japheth). If this isn't the case, what was the purpose of dividing humanity into Japhethites, Shemites, and Hamites?
The purpose is for people to believe they are superior to the other for whatever reason that made hold true. If Ham supposedly was black then that makes his parents black, if his parents were black so were his brothers.
Posts: 2088 | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Can't you see I fully cited the reference source directly following the quote?
I'll also mention Jewish folklore has it that a voice from heaven declared everything that particular rabbi said was always correct.
Fig 1 Three "chief elders" of the Judaean city Lachish bow before Sennacherib. From James B. Pritchard's THE ANCIENT NEAR EAST VOL I net copyright 1997 al~Takruri
Figs 2&3 Defeated Judahite soldiery of Lachish (closeup profiles and fuller scene)
Viewers of Assyrian art notice the very similar features shared by Elamites and Israelites. Many printed and web sources have in fact mistakenly used Assyrian portraiture of Elamites as Judahites. Mind you, the series from Sennacherib's palace in Nineveh are the only indisputably authentic and oldest (circa 700 BCE) images of "Jews."
quote:Originally posted by Israel: Then AlTakruri,
can you name the source for Shem being "Black and beautiful"? Thanks.
ok Takruri,
O cam see that the source is "PIRQE DE RABBI ELIEZER 28a ". But my question is: what is this? Is this a quote from the Babylonian Talmud? Listen man, if it is a legitimate quote from a true source, then I am cool(more than cool) with it. But I need to check the source myself. If it is legitimate, then it is a powerful resource that I can use now and in the future. So please inform, where did you get this source of information from? Is the original quote from the Talmud? If so, did you read it yourself, or did you get the information from a secondary source? If it was a secondary source(such as the Jewish Encyc. or whatever), then let me know. Can you post the link, or whatever, so that I can go directly to it? You might think I am trying to challenge you, but that is not it at all. I am trying to know the truth, and that is it. I searched the internet already trying to find that quote that you quoted. So please, my friend, post EVERYTHING about that quote that you can find. Cause then I can holla at my Jewish friends about these traditions, understand?
I am not at all surprised by an African element among the early Jews. In fact, considering their cultural-linguistic relationship as Afrasians it is all not that surprising.
[ 12. April 2007, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: Horus_Den_1 ]
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by vidadavida: *In my African American southern negro accent*
"It shole do"
LOL!!!!!!
Tutemkasret you were banned in the past, for you now to adopt an ethnic groups name who you have attacked with insults under a different name before and today continue to attack indirectly is very pathetic and sinister indeed and you should be ashamed of yourself
you will be banned permanently
Bettyboo i'm sick and tired of your provocative posts this is your last warning!!
any new post not adressing the topic will be deleted!!
Posts: 107 | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Djehuti: Even Exodus describes an account where God punishes Moses' sister for chastising Moses for marrying Zipporah, a black Midianted woman.
Actually, this goes along with quite a bit of other lessons of tribal tolerance.
There's also the instance where Niobi's daughter and law marries a moabite or some ish like that and that forms the line that King David and even later Jesus come from. I also heard that Jesus was Caananite.
Either way, those are lessons of tolerance and did not have anything to do with skin color. Plus God turned her white, which only rule out the possibility of her starting out white. Also, moses looked like an Egyptian.
Vidum's post had a much better rebuttal of a black ancient Israel, though it's only one example.
quote:Chapter 64. How the Daughter of PHARAOH Seduced SOLOMON "...And she answered and said unto him, "Thy son hath carried away thy Lady ZION, thy son whom thou hast begotten, who springeth from an alien people into which God hath not commanded you to marry, that is to say, from an ETHIOPIAN woman, who is not of thy colour, and is not akin to thy country, and who is, moreover, black."
The only other one I can think of involves Soloman also...
Back ON topic: Why don't we just say where-ever there's Pyramids and great splender and wealth - Hamites.
Where ever theres walls - Shemites.
Gentiles - Japeth.
Here you see with this criteria I can answer any question. Anyone.
From any time, you'll see; I'll use an example:
Ex.: Q.) [ I ] Alright Mr. Big Smartypants, the U.S. of America has many different peoples... [ /I ]
[ B ] Duh! We all have the same ancestors so no one's different, but TECHNICALLY WE'RE HAMITES! [ /B ] (Due to Vegas and GDP)
This idiotic message has been sent to you by a PIimp, Willing Thinker/What Box. Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
First does anybody know how many years between the exodus and the time Solomon ruled? Its entirely possible by the time of solomon That the hebrews had interbred with the cannanites. Also we must remember we are talking about a translation by an englishman, I'd love to hear what a true ethiopian jew says about that passage.
And on the opposite end:
Ive read some accounts that say the Hebrews came into Kemit during the time of Hyksos rule, and that when the Kemites took control back, they got kicked out. So they may have never been black at all, but the different racial characteristics of modern jews kinda leads one to beleive they would have interbred.
posted
^I heard just the opposite. I heard that they came in during the time of the 'nubians' (really southerners) rule.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
The Kebra Naghast(sp) isn't an ancient (BCE) document, nor was it written by Beta Israel (Ethiopian Jewry), nor do they revere it or the Queen of Sheba.
In any event, nothing but nothing has greater bearing or authority on the colour of the Hebrews than the very documents they themselves produced and which have been presented here recently and many a time before.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Josephus, a Judahite writer of the 1st century CE, agrees with the Egyptian Cherilus' description of Israelites conscripted into Xerxes' army as having the visage of "smoke hardened horseheads." This refered to their high cheekbones and prominent jaws, as seen in the conquest of Lachish depictions, and their smokey "soot" dark complexions (Against Apion I.22).
From an above post.
Solymean mountains refers to the range including Jerusalem (Dar u solym) and other Israel cities.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic