posted
In the tapestry I have, her father kills the snake?
This legend entered world mythology as the Perseus and Andromeda myth. It's pervasive in West Africa where an "beyonder" slays a scaled power then a new dynasty (often Semitic or Semiticised) is established by the hero.
Of course when the scaled power is a deity, not just a reptile or fish, a new spiritual system is replacing the established one.
The myth is African in origin. We can see this in that Andromeda is a levantine "princess" in the city of Joppa/Yaffa/Tel-Aviv which is part of an Aithiopian kingdom according to the Greek's version.
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
quote:Originally posted by Yom:
quote:Originally posted by Supercar: "Makeda", if an actual historical figure, has been cloaked with mythology, as Ausar (Osiris) examplifies...only that Ausar goes back to the prehistorical period, while "Makeda" is supposed to be attested to at a time when literal record keeping was already established.
She's obviously been combined or confounded with some pre-historic (?) pre-Abrahamic Ethiopian Goddess/heroine, as obvious from the tales of her slaying the ancient Serpent/Snake-God Arwe and role in the creation of "Teff" (the staple grain of Ethiopia).
Can you elaborate? I've never heard about tales of her slaying a Snake God.
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posted
Precisely! All up and down the Joliba, the old folks used to tell the Big Snake story.
In Frobenius' African Genesis you can find the cycle of the birth death rise and fall of Wagadu (old Ghana). The "snake-myth" is only about one of the times the Soninke Empire submerged only to rise again. Iirc, it's supposed to rise again -- maybe the nation of Mali is it.
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posted
The Hausa people, they too have a "Big Snake" legend like the Soninke -- and many others of the Sahel. The sons of the snake slayer are the founders of the seven Hausa Bakwai states.
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posted
The importance and usefulness of mythology/religious text as pointers in anthropoligy and history is in my mind an uncontested fact. It was the mythological/religious text of The Gate of Teka Hra which indisputedly sealed the meaning of its accompanying illustration "The Cattle (herd) of Ra." That text proved the AE's saw themselves and Nubians/Kushites as from the same creation whereas the illustration alone was arguable from many points as to its significance.
My studies in history, anthroplogy, archaeology, comparative religion and related fields all stem from my love of mythology as a child. The Illiad introduced me to the "blameless Æthiopians" of the "land where the gods love to be" as in Garvey's UNIA anthem penned by Rabbi Arnold Josiah Ford.
Æschylus in The Suppliant Maidens gives us a rather complete list of all the related black peoples from Mediterranean Africa (which incidently includes the East Mediterranean), to up-Nile, and clear to India, when the King of Argos rebuffs the Danaides. His list drawn from 9th cent. BCE materials is no different from that of Al-Jahiz 18 centuries later in the 9th century CE.
Archetypical painting representing W. African Big Snake mythos starring Sya Tounkara, Amadou Sefedoke, and Miniyamba as "the Big Snake." ____________________ ____________________
The Perseus and Andromeda myth speaks of the Æthiopian people of Joppa (present day Yaffa/Tel Aviv, Israel). Perseus himself is a direct descendent of Ægyptus and Danaüs the grandsons of Libya, daughter of "black Epaphus" (again from Æschylus, in his Prometheus Bound) . But more importantly here is the template of one of the most portentious myths in Africa: the slaying of the scaled creature (dragon/serpent/snake /fish) by the wandering foreign hero who thus saves a princess and her country and engenders a new dynasty/religious order. We see repetitions in variation of this myth across time and regions in The Kebra Naghast, Wagadu Bida, Dia, Isa Bere, and other occurences. But in viewing the movie Clash of the Titans, how many have even guessed, much less told their children, they were viewing a work of ancient African mythos hidden by its all-white cast of hired actors?
Now the Egyptian and some of the other African mythologies are more complex than that of the Greeks which is more storylike and plain in its presentation. Getting behind the Kmtjw, or say the Dogon, cosmologies is a real task. But these cosmologies and other myths for sure hold kernels of knowledge and whole sets of facts hidden from the unitiated (i.e. undergrads in the mysteries systems order of education).
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posted
Greco-Latin authors attested to the up Nile origins for Qevs, Ta Seti, Ta Wy, and Greek religion, mythos, and deity names/functions. Let's examine this a bit.
In Axum, Mahrem was the same as Amon. Yet Amon was the same as Zeus. But Mahrem carries the name Ares among the Axumites who absorbed Greek culture.
At some point functions of divinities are going to overlap. Also, divine concepts originate from the same sources for all peoples despite their relation or presumed lack of relation.
Astral, chtonic, and water deities will have similar functions whatever their name. After all the moon is the moon and all peoples see it wax and wane and will invent some similar stories about it and its place in the scheme of things and what it presides over. There will also be some differences not shared between peoples that will mark out one's moon god from another's moon god and so on.
For instance, the names can vary due to association or fusing of deified ancestors with the natural divinities. Eventually a 'pure' deity, invisible, intangible, and omniscient will displace the hero or ancestor cult just as the ancestor cult displaced solar, lunar, or nature/spirit cults.
A common thread in evolution and displacement of cult/religion throughout the continent is the banishing of the Scaled God, provider of rain who receives human female virgin sacrifices, by a human who is a stranger to the people worshipping the Scaled God (dragon, fish, serpent). Thus Ethiopian epic has the serpent Arwe poisoned by Angabo who marries Aeb, the intended sacificial victim.
There is some link here with the Greek myth of Andromeda which takes place in Joppa (Yaffa/Tel Aviv) viewed as an Aethiopian land. Perseus slays the sea monster and weds Andromeda. Straying to West Africa, we find the same happenings associated with the decline of Ghana (Miniyamba killed by Amadou Sefedoke afianced to Sya Tounkara).
When we speak to Axum versus pre-Axumite religion we're going to find the co-existence of many cults. Since Axum wasn't xenophobic and carried on international trade we're going to find Egyptian religion pertaining to Hathor, Ptah, and Heru in particular, pre-rabbinic Israelite ways, and even Buddhism practiced in Axumite civilization. Nobility, aristocracy, and peasantry may all each have forms of worship and deities not shared across class boundaries.
Pre-Axumite religion will involve nature worship centering in trees, rivers, and animals, and the spiritual concepts they imbue. This type of worship is still carried on in western Ethiopia by non-Semitic speaking peoples like the Wellege. Even some Shemite or semitized peoples incorporate this like the Qemant who mix this in with their Israelite customs. The Astar (planet Venus as a male deity) cult is pre-Axumite and the Ethiopian Christian term "Egzi`abher" is a survival from the Beher cult of Axum.
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posted
Did you say Buddism in Axum????? Proof brother. I need prood. I will be VERY happy if there is proof of that. But I need proof. Concerning mythology and stuff like that, can you list some books, cause this is all very interesting.......Salaam
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posted
This is from someone who has no PROOF of Moses, Joseph, Yahweh or any character in your silly bible? You might want to look in the mirror dude.
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quote:To a great extent the rarity of Greek and Roman trade at an earlier period was due to the fact that the Homerites or Himyarites, the Arabs of the south coast of Arabia who then controlled the trade, as well as the Axumites, who were Himyaritic colonists settled on the African side of the Red Sea, desired to keep the Indian trade a monopoly for themselves and were unwilling to let any strangers into their secrets. That the Axumites participated in this trade is clear from the Buddhist monument found at Axum.
. . . .
How far Buddhism really spread into the Greek world is problematical. A Buddhist gravestone found at Alexandria and a monument definitely Buddhist in its symbols found at Axum are the Main traces, but both these places were trading ports closely connected with the Indian trade, and it would have been likely enough that an Indian merchant or traveller may have died in either place.
quote:The Aksumites controlled one of the most important trade routes in the world and occupied one of the most fertile regions in the world. Aksum lay directly in the path of the growing commercial trade routes between Africa, Arabia, and India. As a result, it became fabulously wealthy and its major cities, Adulis, Aksum, and Matara, became three of the most important cosmopolitan centers in the ancient world. An indication of this cosmopolitan character can be found in the fact that the major Aksumite cities had Jewish, Nubian, Christian, and even Buddhist minorities.
quote:Sri Lanka’s introduction to international diplomacy occured in epic circumstances when a momentous link was established in the 3rd century BC between the mighty Indian Emperor Asoka of the Mauryan dynasty and his Sri Lankan contemporary King Devanampiyatissa of Anuradhapura through the medium of the Emperor’s two personal emissaries, his son and daughter, Mahinda and Sanghamitta respectively, who brought Buddhism to Sri Lanka. Buddhism thus became the premier faith in Sri Lanka. In due course Sri Lanka became the second home of Buddhism from where it was carried to other countries. In fact, Buddhism became an impetus and an inspiration in the foreign policy of Sri Lanka.
. . . .
Sri Lanka had extensive foreign contacts which included imperial Rome, the Hellenistic kingdoms, the court of Axum in the Horn of Africa, the Sassanid kingdom in Persia, the Byzantine empire on the Western side and the maritime empire of Sri Vijaya, China, the kingdoms of Siam, Cambodia and Myanmar on the eastern side.
I really don't have time to further research this. Maybe you and others can look further into it.
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Ay Tutemkrasret, why are you on this forum? Just curious.......if all you have to add is the above comment, you might want to go to another forum cause ignorance isn't the basis of the philosophical thought of this forum. Salaam
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posted
The kind of books that got me on my way with the mythos and genesis of religion may not necessarily be the best for anthropology and pre-history because of their age, but they all remain somewhat useful, even quite valuable in their own way.
John G. Jackson .Was Jesus Christ a Negro?; and, .The African origin of the myths & legends of .the Garden of Eden: two rationalistic views .New York : Jackson, 1933 .Introduction to African civilizations .New York: University Books, 1970 .Man, God, and Civilization .New Hyde Park, NY: University Books, 1972 .
John D Baldwin Prehistoric Nations or Inquiries Concerning Some of the Great Peoples and Civilizations of Antiquity New York, 1869 .
James George Fraser The Golden Bough 1907 .
Robert Graves .The Greek myths .Baltimore: Penguin Books, 1955
.Hebrew myths; the book of Genesis .Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1964
.The White Goddess : a historical grammar of poetic myth .New York, Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 1966 .
Godfrey Higgins .The Celtic Druids: .or, an attempt to shew, that the Druids were the priests .of Oriental colonies who emigrated from India, and were .the introducers of the first or Cadmean system of letters, .and the builders of Stonehenge, of Carnac, and of other .Cyclopean works, in Asia and Europe .London: Rowland Hunter, 1829
.Anacalypsis: .an attempt to draw aside the veil of the Saitic Isis .or an inquiry into the origin of languages, nations, .and religions .New York: J.W. Bouton, 1878 .
Gerald Massey .A book of the Beginnings. .Containing an attempt to recover and reconstitute .the lost origines of the myths and mysteries, types .and symbols, religion and language, with Egypt for .the mouthpiece and Africa as the birthplace. .London: Williams & Norgate, 1881
.The Natural Genesis, .or, second part of A book of the beginnings .London, Williams and Norgate, 1883
.Ancient Egypt, the Light of the World: .a work of reclamation and restitution in twelve books .Baltimore, MD: Black Classic Press, 1992 (reprint)
.Gerald Massey's Lectures (reprint) .New York: S. Weiser, 1974 .
posted
Depending on the legend version, it can be either Makeda or her father that kills the snake. The snake can be called either Arwe or Waynaba, and is called "Agabos/Agebos" (different transliterations), à la Makeda's father's name (Angabo/Angebo) in the Gadl (hagiography) of Afsé/Aftsé (fl. 6th century, but his hagiography wasn't composed until the 13th century).
The name Angabo is attested in an early 4th century inscription of Ezana as a place name near the inhabitants of Agwezat (located to the West of Aksum by some scholars).
[Ezana, son of Ella Amida, Bisi Halen, king of Aksum, Himyar, Raydan, Saba, Salhin, Tsiyamo,] Beja and of Kasu, king of kings, son of the invincible Mahrem.
The Agwezat took the field and arrived at Angabo. There came to meet us Aba'alkeo, king of the Agwezat, with his tribe, and he brought tribute.
-------------------- "Oh the sons of Ethiopia; observe with care; the country called Ethiopia is, first, your mother; second, your throne; third, your wife; fourth, your child; fifth, your grave." - Ras Alula Aba Nega. Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
Ah, but did you know you can search anyone's views here over time by keying up your search engine of choice
site:egyptsearch.com Poster'sName subject
site:egyptsearch.com Brada-Anansi Carthage is how I tracked down your good stuff on that!
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Of course when the scaled power is a deity, not just a reptile or fish, a new spiritual system is replacing the established one...
Yes, I've noticed this motif years ago in my research on ancient African myths and legends.
There is evidence of serpent deity worship in pre-Songhay, ancient Mali, and other cultures pre-Islamic cultures of West Africa. Even the Hausa legend claims their matriarch Magajiya Daurama was rescued from being sacrificed to a scaled lake monster by her husband and alleged Muslim patriarch Bayajidda.
That serpent worship was known in in ancient Ethiopia/Eritrea was discussed many times before. Even the ancient Egyptian 'Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor' shows this when the sailor is marooned on an Island in Punt ruled by a giant snake god.
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posted
Wow I don't know where to post this so I'll post this on both thread,I first came across this passage in Graham Hancook Sign And The Seal some yrs back and I followed his source to A General history Of Ancient Kings. "Christianity was introduced into Abyssinia 331 years after the birth of Christ by Abuna Salama whose former name was Frumentos or Frumentius. As that time the Ethiopian kings reigned over Axum. Before the Christian religion was known in Ethiopia half the inhabitants were Jews, who observed the Law; the other half were worshippers of Sando, the dragon." - A History and Genealogy of the Ancient Kings http://books.google.com/books?id=1kcpAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA120&dq=A+History+and+Genealogy+of+the+Ancient+Kings+half+the+people+were+jews
This goes back to what DJ posted above about reptilian worship in the area.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
^ Obviously the narrative of Makeda or her father slaying the serpent is symbolic of Ethiopia's conversion from their native religion to Judaism well before the advent of Christianity.
Another interesting thing about this side-topic of snake worship in Africa is its association with divination and oracles. The earliest record of an oracle comes from Egypt. In Lower Egypt's 5th nome of Sap-meh is the city of Per-Wadjet, the cult center of the cobra goddess Wadjet whose high priestess served as oracle. Some scholars have even suggested that the oracles of Mediterranean Europe like Delphi in Greece and the Sibyls of Italy may have African roots, particularly the Oracle of Delphi called Pythia whose original guardian was the great serpent 'Python'. In West African Vodun, many priestesses and priests utilize snakes in their rituals including reaching ecstatic trances and zar. Among the Bantu peoples of central and southern Africa, rain priestesses who preside in shrines of sacred pools also kept pythons as part of their religious office.
You can read more about the topic in the book The Worship of the Serpent by John Bathurst Deane (1833) which is presented in the Sacred Texts website here.
Posts: 26237 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The Hausa people, they too have a "Big Snake" legend like the Soninke -- and many others of the Sahel. The sons of the snake slayer are the founders of the seven Hausa Bakwai states.
The snake mythology is all over Africa. The dogon have a snake saying 7th nummo came to earth and transformed as a snake and then was killed. Remember Ra in his solar boat slays the Apep snake etc. etc.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Wow I don't know where to post this so I'll post this on both thread,I first came across this passage in Graham Hancook Sign And The Seal some yrs back and I followed his source to A General history Of Ancient Kings. "Christianity was introduced into Abyssinia 331 years after the birth of Christ by Abuna Salama whose former name was Frumentos or Frumentius. As that time the Ethiopian kings reigned over Axum. Before the Christian religion was known in Ethiopia half the inhabitants were Jews, who observed the Law; the other half were worshippers of Sando, the dragon." - A History and Genealogy of the Ancient Kings http://books.google.com/books?id=1kcpAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA120&dq=A+History+and+Genealogy+of+the+Ancient+Kings+half+the+people+were+jews
This goes back to what DJ posted above about reptilian worship in the area.
I don't know that any African kingdom worshiped a snake. The religions in Africa are esoteric in nature and the snake had spiritual symbolism. As for Aksum, I believe they were Sabeans, not dragon worshippers and jews. Not saying there weren't what some claim to be jews there (they never called themselves that originally), but Sabeanism played a big role there.
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posted
^ Hell, if European Americans view the Greeks as their ancestors, even though their actual ancestors came from northwest Europe, then why can't African Americans view Egyptians as their ancestors?
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The Hausa people, they too have a "Big Snake" legend like the Soninke -- and many others of the Sahel. The sons of the snake slayer are the founders of the seven Hausa Bakwai states.
The snake mythology is all over Africa. The dogon have a snake saying 7th nummo came to earth and transformed as a snake and then was killed. Remember Ra in his solar boat slays the Apep snake etc. etc.
But Hausa myth represents a vanquishing of the old native religion for a foreign one. The snake as a sacred animal of the old religion is slayed by a man who brings the new 'superior' religion of Islam.
The Dogon nummo was a divinity whose serpentine death seems to be some sort of sacrificial mythos where the serpent was a sacred animal.
The Egyptian myth of Apep is different. The god Apep is the deity of darkness and night. Ra who is the sun and bringer of day (or his servants) must slay Apep in order to rise again in the morning. While Apep may be demonized he is still seen as a necessary part of the cosmos as Ra is.
quote:I don't know that any African kingdom worshiped a snake. The religions in Africa are esoteric in nature and the snake had spiritual symbolism. As for Aksum, I believe they were Sabeans, not dragon worshippers and jews. Not saying there weren't what some claim to be jews there (they never called themselves that originally), but Sabeanism played a big role there.
You are correct that the animals themselves were never worshiped. The animals were symbols or representatives of divinities but were not divinities themselves. This belief is called totemism and included not only animals but certain plants as well. The treatment of the sacred animal or plant varied by culture and region. There may be a taboo against the harming of a sacred animal on one hand though in some instances that animal may be sacrificed because of its sanctity. An individual animal of the totem species may be cared for and raised and even praised in the temple in honor of the deity it represents but not viewed as the deity itself.
As for Aksum, it was discussed in several threads that the Aksumites were not Sabaeans but an entirely different group of people who spoke their own south Semitic language. They may well have acquired the Jewish religion from the Sabaeans and other Yemenite peoples who in turn acquired Judaism from the ethnic Jews of Arabia.
Posts: 26237 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Hell, if European Americans view the Greeks as their ancestors, even though their actual ancestors came from northwest Europe, then why can't African Americans view Egyptians as their ancestors?
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The Hausa people, they too have a "Big Snake" legend like the Soninke -- and many others of the Sahel. The sons of the snake slayer are the founders of the seven Hausa Bakwai states.
The snake mythology is all over Africa. The dogon have a snake saying 7th nummo came to earth and transformed as a snake and then was killed. Remember Ra in his solar boat slays the Apep snake etc. etc.
But Hausa myth represents a vanquishing of the old native religion for a foreign one. The snake as a sacred animal of the old religion is slayed by a man who brings the new 'superior' religion of Islam.
The Dogon nummo was a divinity whose serpentine death seems to be some sort of sacrificial mythos where the serpent was a sacred animal.
The Egyptian myth of Apep is different. The god Apep is the deity of darkness and night. Ra who is the sun and bringer of day (or his servants) must slay Apep in order to rise again in the morning. While Apep may be demonized he is still seen as a necessary part of the cosmos as Ra is.
quote:I don't know that any African kingdom worshiped a snake. The religions in Africa are esoteric in nature and the snake had spiritual symbolism. As for Aksum, I believe they were Sabeans, not dragon worshippers and jews. Not saying there weren't what some claim to be jews there (they never called themselves that originally), but Sabeanism played a big role there.
You are correct that the animals themselves were never worshiped. The animals were symbols or representatives of divinities but were not divinities themselves. This belief is called totemism and included not only animals but certain plants as well. The treatment of the sacred animal or plant varied by culture and region. There may be a taboo against the harming of a sacred animal on one hand though in some instances that animal may be sacrificed because of its sanctity. An individual animal of the totem species may be cared for and raised and even praised in the temple in honor of the deity it represents but not viewed as the deity itself.
As for Aksum, it was discussed in several threads that the Aksumites were not Sabaeans but an entirely different group of people who spoke their own south Semitic language. They may well have acquired the Jewish religion from the Sabaeans and other Yemenite peoples who in turn acquired Judaism from the ethnic Jews of Arabia.
Apep was not a "deity" it only represented those things that fought to Keep Ra's boat from emerging on its journey from west to east. Don't get caught up in Eurocentric definitions of what the Egyptians supposedly believed, they are basing their ridiculous analysis on eurocentric ideology which do not correspond with african thinking. So the thing for you would be to determine what did Ra's solar boat represent, then determine what is the adversary of that thing it represented, then you will understand what Apep and the snake (all over Africa) represents.
As for Nummo, again, not deities. I have the book conversations with ogotemmeli which is the discourse between the original french researcher with one of the Dogon, concerning their cosmogony. I assure you, the snake is not a deity nor are the nummo. Nor more so than the neters are deities (they aren't). The Dogon clearly state, God created everything and then put something(s) in place to make it all run i.e. the nummo. This is the same thing stated by the kemmu about the neteru.
Neteru do not talk about God, God was undefinable and unknowable to the ancient egyptians. You can read the Gods of the Egyptian Vol I and II by Budge. In these books, Budge clearly states that they (linguist) do not (and still don't) fully understand the ancient egyptian language. which puts to bed the idea that coptic is ancient egyptian language. It is more a creole of Greek and the ancient language, but so is modern day Egyptian Arabic as well. I think coptic may be a BIT closer related to ancient egyptian but not enough so that it helps them understand the language (again they still don't fully understand it nor do they know how to pronounce things exactly).
Budge also states that although they translate Neter as "god" or gods (neteru) this is incorrect and they only use that word for lack of a better one. In his estimation, divine power or divine principle would have been better. He also states they were monotheist, not polytheist. The Egyptians clearly say over and over again, God is One, unknowable. They did not even have a name for Him nor did they try to understand Him or how He came into being, they felt it was unknowable. Thus when we read about the Ogdoad, this has nothing to do with the Supreme Being and His coming into being. It only has to do with metaphysics.
We can also apply the ancient egyptian approach to the Supreme Being to the Dogon. For them, the Nummo are not deities or gods. They were/are divine principles, which were put in place by God to govern the material world in Gods absence. Think of it in terms of those things, which make the physical world work. Everything is subject to certain laws. i.e. atomic law, binary, fractals, Fibonacci, quips etc. That is what these people are dealing with. When you get to the heart of it, that is what ALL traditional African religions are dealing with, as well as the secret societies found through out west africa. Well I should say, the esoteric side of the secret societies. That then also has a human aspect, which is the esoteric side of it.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Hell, if European Americans view the Greeks as their ancestors, even though their actual ancestors came from northwest Europe, then why can't African Americans view Egyptians as their ancestors?
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The Hausa people, they too have a "Big Snake" legend like the Soninke -- and many others of the Sahel. The sons of the snake slayer are the founders of the seven Hausa Bakwai states.
The snake mythology is all over Africa. The dogon have a snake saying 7th nummo came to earth and transformed as a snake and then was killed. Remember Ra in his solar boat slays the Apep snake etc. etc.
But Hausa myth represents a vanquishing of the old native religion for a foreign one. The snake as a sacred animal of the old religion is slayed by a man who brings the new 'superior' religion of Islam.
The Dogon nummo was a divinity whose serpentine death seems to be some sort of sacrificial mythos where the serpent was a sacred animal.
The Egyptian myth of Apep is different. The god Apep is the deity of darkness and night. Ra who is the sun and bringer of day (or his servants) must slay Apep in order to rise again in the morning. While Apep may be demonized he is still seen as a necessary part of the cosmos as Ra is.
quote:I don't know that any African kingdom worshiped a snake. The religions in Africa are esoteric in nature and the snake had spiritual symbolism. As for Aksum, I believe they were Sabeans, not dragon worshippers and jews. Not saying there weren't what some claim to be jews there (they never called themselves that originally), but Sabeanism played a big role there.
You are correct that the animals themselves were never worshiped. The animals were symbols or representatives of divinities but were not divinities themselves. This belief is called totemism and included not only animals but certain plants as well. The treatment of the sacred animal or plant varied by culture and region. There may be a taboo against the harming of a sacred animal on one hand though in some instances that animal may be sacrificed because of its sanctity. An individual animal of the totem species may be cared for and raised and even praised in the temple in honor of the deity it represents but not viewed as the deity itself.
As for Aksum, it was discussed in several threads that the Aksumites were not Sabaeans but an entirely different group of people who spoke their own south Semitic language. They may well have acquired the Jewish religion from the Sabaeans and other Yemenite peoples who in turn acquired Judaism from the ethnic Jews of Arabia.
What you described is NOT African totemism. This is eurocentric beliefs and have nothing to do with what Totemism is in Africa. Totemism deals with the principles that certain animals represent. Each family, clan or in the case of ancient egypt, each nome would then have a totem which symbolized a certain principle. Today, most families in W. and Southern African have totems which represent their family or clan. For instance, lets say I meet someone in Canada who is from Southern Sierra Leone and his totem is a crocodile for example. I know that he is then related to me some sort of way if my totem is also the crocodile. There are also greetings one would say to the other based on totem and poems that would be recited when giving thanks to someone of a certain totem. You are also not supposed to eat the meat of the totem you are represented by.
Europeans have done a terrible job of trying to explain Africa and African beliefs. They have a bad habit of taking their culture and history and trying to apply it to Africa and that doesn't work. Because Africans and Europeans are two totally different groups of people, with two totally different cultures and mentalities. This isn't a good or bad thing, it just is.
But everything is about context, and in order to properly understand something we must put that thing into its proper context. Something western academics seem to have neglected to do.
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posted
^ I understand all that, but is it not true that those Egyptian deities represented by animals are in fact clan deities who represent certain sepat or nomes?? From what I understand the different sepati themselves were founded by different tribes.
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Apep was not a "deity" it only represented those things that fought to Keep Ra's boat from emerging on its journey from west to east. Don't get caught up in Eurocentric definitions of what the Egyptians supposedly believed, they are basing their ridiculous analysis on eurocentric ideology which do not correspond with african thinking. So the thing for you would be to determine what did Ra's solar boat represent, then determine what is the adversary of that thing it represented, then you will understand what Apep and the snake (all over Africa) represents.
What Eurocentric definitions are you referring to? I only refer to texts written by the Kememu themselves. Apep represented darkness and the night. These are opposite of light and day which Ra represented. They are dualistic parts. When Ra reigns on earth making day among mortals, Apep reigns in the underworld making night there. Ra rises from the east in the morning arriving from the underworld to journey westward. Once he sets past the lands of the west, he goes back into the underworld. They meet each other both in the beginning (morning) and end (evening) of the day.
quote:As for Nummo, again, not deities. I have the book conversations with ogotemmeli which is the discourse between the original french researcher with one of the Dogon, concerning their cosmogony. I assure you, the snake is not a deity nor are the nummo. Nor more so than the neters are deities (they aren't). The Dogon clearly state, God created everything and then put something(s) in place to make it all run i.e. the nummo. This is the same thing stated by the kemmu about the neteru.
Neteru do not talk about God, God was undefinable and unknowable to the ancient egyptians. You can read the Gods of the Egyptian Vol I and II by Budge. In these books, Budge clearly states that they (linguist) do not (and still don't) fully understand the ancient egyptian language. which puts to bed the idea that coptic is ancient egyptian language. It is more a creole of Greek and the ancient language, but so is modern day Egyptian Arabic as well. I think coptic may be a BIT closer related to ancient egyptian but not enough so that it helps them understand the language (again they still don't fully understand it nor do they know how to pronounce things exactly).
Budge also states that although they translate Neter as "god" or gods (neteru) this is incorrect and they only use that word for lack of a better one. In his estimation, divine power or divine principle would have been better. He also states they were monotheist, not polytheist. The Egyptians clearly say over and over again, God is One, unknowable. They did not even have a name for Him nor did they try to understand Him or how He came into being, they felt it was unknowable. Thus when we read about the Ogdoad, this has nothing to do with the Supreme Being and His coming into being. It only has to do with metaphysics.
We can also apply the ancient egyptian approach to the Supreme Being to the Dogon. For them, the Nummo are not deities or gods. They were/are divine principles, which were put in place by God to govern the material world in Gods absence. Think of it in terms of those things, which make the physical world work. Everything is subject to certain laws. i.e. atomic law, binary, fractals, Fibonacci, quips etc. That is what these people are dealing with. When you get to the heart of it, that is what ALL traditional African religions are dealing with, as well as the secret societies found through out west africa. Well I should say, the esoteric side of the secret societies. That then also has a human aspect, which is the esoteric side of it.
I guess it is all a matter of semantics. By 'deity' I myself don't necessarily mean a being of worship but a power or principality as well. These powers function without the desire let alone need of any worship or veneration. As far as all the esoteric stuff, it is very complex and varies by culture and tradition. It's a shame many of the teachings are being lost.
Posts: 26237 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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YES Each nome had its own totem. The origin of these totems, why or how it was used is ALL speculation. The Ancient EGyptians did not leave a lot of written record behind on day to day stuff, so its only speculation and that speculation (in my opinion) is based on Eurocentric interpretation. Do you get my meaning? Calling them deities or clan deities is not how totemism works in Africa, nor how it worked in Kemet. Ancient Egyptians were Africans and if we want to understand them, the best thing to do is to look at African cultures today that still hold ancient beliefs and as far as I know, totems in Africa today are NOT deities. They are, what I described in my earlier post. Africans are not polytheist nor animist, never have been and never will be.
As for what Eurocentric definitions, as you asked. You are relying on something a European interpreted, i.e. the meaning of words in mtu ntr, and translations of the book of the dead/pyramid text etc. I mean, the only way for you to NOT rely on eurocentric definitions would have been for us to have been native Mtu Ntr speakers and lived 4,000 yrs ago. Otherwise one must rely on what definitions whites have given for those words. The only other way I can see to break that cycle is to fully interpret ancient Egypt in its African context given modern day, ancient practices still existent in Africa today that directly correlate to Ancient Egyptian beliefs and cultural practices.
As I said, neter does not, nor has it ever meant deity. Just read what early europeans said concerning their decipherment of the word Neter for example. It does not mean deity. Apep is not a deity and no, Apep does not symbolize "darkness" literally. Nor does Ra symbolize light literally. These (light and dark) are still symbols, and they both have other, very specific meanings.
As for semantics, no. I use words according to their dictionary meaning. Once we start making up meanings for words, we will no longer be able to communicate with each other, we will in affect be speaking two different languages.
From Merriam Webster
Deity: a : the rank or essential nature of a god : divinity b capitalized : god 1, supreme being 2 a god or goddess <the deities of ancient Greece> 3 one exalted or revered as supremely good or powerful
Origin of the word:
Middle English deitee, from Anglo-French deité, from Late Latin deitat-, deitas, from Latin deus god; akin to Old English Tīw, god of war, Latin divus god, dies day, Greek dios heavenly, Sanskrit deva heavenly, god First Known Use: 14th century
A more accurate term in English for the word Neter would be a Divine Principle
Principle: a : a comprehensive and fundamental law, doctrine, or assumption b (1) : a rule or code of conduct (2) : habitual devotion to right principles <a man of principle> c : the laws or facts of nature underlying the working of an artificial device
In the case of Principle, definition A is most applicable.
I put the word divine in conjunction with the word principle because these principles are the laws put in motion when God created existence.
Divine: a : of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god <divine love> b : being a deity <the divine Savior> c : directed to a deity <divine worship>
Specifically definition A would be applicable here in terms of the word Divine.
I hope you understand my meaning. I think you are on the right track with some of what your saying and I agree with many things you say, but I insist on accuracy and I feel we need to get away from eurocentric interpretations. That would mean we have to start understanding african culture and religion as a whole and then reinterpret Nile Valley civilization. Other wise Egypt's secrets will always be lost to us. These Europeans have mucked up Ancient Egyptian history because they tried to view Kemet in terms of Semetic and European culture, religion and ideology. Well that doesn't work when the people in question are not Europeans. Everything is about context.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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posted
^ I get what you're saying. Frankly I find it somewhat difficult to express or convey such ideas without resorting to European constructs. It's hard because we live in the West and I and many others just get too used to using Western/European words, phrases, and ideas.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26237 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I get what you're saying. Frankly I find it somewhat difficult to express or convey such ideas without resorting to European constructs. It's hard because we live in the West and I and many others just get too used to using Western/European words, phrases, and ideas.
I get your meaning, but we have to try harder and do better. This miseducation that the Europeans needs to be undone and the best time to start is now. Just think about the millions who will do google searches and read our post. We owe it to them and ourselves to speak accurately and back up what we say with hard facts. Only then will things change. Speaking of that, have you ever looked at Philipino Stick fighting? It seems to match Zulu stick fighting. I find that VERY interesting. I wonder if there is any history of trade or settlement. I have also seen Asians playing Warri (a African board game) which I find VERY interesting. It is basically binary, made into a board game. Very ancient in Africa
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