Ancient Libya was the region west of the Nile Valley, the home of ancient Egyptian civilization. It corresponds to what is now generally called Northwest Africa. Its people were the ancestors of the modern Berbers[1].
In the Greek period the Berbers were known as "Libyans"[2] and their lands as "Libya" that extended from modern Morocco to the western borders of ancient Egypt. Modern Egypt contains the Siwa Oasis, historically part of Libya, where the Berber Siwi language is still spoken.
I- The name: Libya The history of the name The name Libya is found in the Ancient Egyptian-, Phoenician-, Greek-, Hebrew-, Latin- , Arabic and the modern European languages[3].
The oldest reference to this name goes back to Merenptah the Egyptian ruler of the 19th dynasty. He ruled in the second half of the 13th century BCE. The name was firstly mentioned as an ethnic name on the Merneptah Stele which is also known as the Israel's Stele:
[..]The vile chief of the Libu[4] who fled under cover of night alone without a feather on his head, his feet unshod, his wives seized before his very eyes, the meal for his food taken away, and without water in the water-skin to keep him alive; the faces of his brothers are savage to kill him, his captains fighting one against the other, their camps burnt and made into ashes ..[5].
After then, the name appeared repeatedly in the pharaonic records. It is therefore supposed that the origin of the name would be this Egyptian name for the ancient tribe Libu. According to this theory, this name would be taken over by the Greeks of Cyrenaica who may have co-existed with them[6]. Later, the name appeared in the Hebrew language written in the Bible as Lehabim and Lubim indicating the ethnic population and the geographic territory as well.
In the neo-Punic inscriptins it was written as Lby for the masculine noun and Lbt for the feminine noun of Libyan. The name was supposedly used as an ethnic name in those inscriptions.
The first reference to "Libya" in the Greek language is found in Homer's Odyssey (IX.95; XXIII.311). The name was used by Homer in a geographic sense, while he called its inhabitants Lotophagi meaning the "Lotus-eaters". After Homer, the name was used by Aeschylus, Pindar and other Ancient Greek writers. Herodotus used Libuwa indicating Libya while he called the Libyans Libyes in the Greek language. From his point of view, Libya was the name of the African continent, while "the Libyans" were the light-sikinned North Africans, whereas the southern Africans were known as "the Ethiopians" to him[7].
In Latin, the name would be taken over from the Greek- and the Punic language. The Romans would have know them befor their colonization for Northwest Africa, because of the Libyan role in the Punic wars against the Romans. The Romans used the name Libyes, but it referred only to Barca and the Western desert of Egypt. The other Libyan territories became known as Africa.
In the Arabic literature it was called Lubya indictating a speculative territory in west of Egypt. But today, this name is used as Libya in the modern languages.
The etymologic origin When it comes to the chronical identification, it would be obvious that the Egyptian sources are the first known reference to the name, as libyan tribe inhabiting the west. But although, this is a significant data for the origin of the name, it would be hard to attribute its origin to any language.
Generally, there are many theories attributing the name to Berber- , Egyptian- , Phoenician-, Hebrew-, punic-, Greek-, Latin- and Arabic origins. However, the Berber and Egyptian sources are the most acceptable.
It has been questioned whether the name Libu was an Egyptian name for an ancient Berber tribe or it was the own name of the Berber tribe to refer to them selves whereafter the Ancient Egyptians have adopted it from them. An example of the first probability is the name Berber which is used to refer to the indeginous people of Northwest Africa, whereas they call themselves "Imazighen".
In fact, it would be a problematic essay to give a deciding answer because the Berbers didn't leave any considerable written sources. However, some prominent historians tried to trace the name to a Berber origin. The supporters of the Berber origin believe that the name was related to an ancient Berber tribe. The name Libu would have know many evolution from "Lebu" to "Libya" to "Lebata" to "Levata" to "Lvata" to "Lwatae".
Lwatae (the tribe of Ibn Battuta[8]) as it was called by the Arabs was a Berber tribe that was mainly situated in Cyrenaica, but this tribe seemed to have stretched from the Atlantic Ocean to modern Libya. This tribe was referred by Corippius as Laguatan and it was associated by him with the Maures. Ibn Khaldun tells on this tribe in the thirth chapter of The History of Ibn Khaldun that Luwa was their ancestor, and the Berber do add an "A" and "T" to the name. Subsquently, it became Lwat, but the Arabs adopted it in a singular form adding a "H" for the plural form in Arabic. Ibn Khaldun goes furthermore denying the claim of Ibn Hazam who maybe singifically claimed on the basis of the Berber sources that Lwatah in addition to Sadrata and Mzata were from the Qibts (Egyptians). According to Ibn Khaldun his claim is incorrect because ibn Hazm didn't read the books of the Berber scholars concerning this subject[9].
Oric Bates is one of those Historians who believe that the name Libu or LBW would be derived from the name Luwatah. He wrote in the page 57 as a note in his informative book The Eastern Libyans that the name Liwata is a derivation of the name Libu. Other historians like the Libyan historian Mohammed Moustapha Bazam tend to confirm this theory.
II- Ancient Libya The sources Compared with the History of Egypt, there is a little known on the History of Libya. Because the Ancient Libyans didn't leave written sources. The libyco-Berber script (also known as Tifinagh) that was used in Libya was mostly used as funerary script. Moreover, the experts are confronted with many diffeculties to decipher it. The script has it variations, like the modern Berberlanguage variations which would be different from its ancient forms.
Generally, there are two main sources on the history of Ancient Libya: The archeologic- and historic sources written by their eastern Egyptian neighbours and the Northern people who were the Ancient Greeks, Romans and Byzantines in the addition to the Arabs from the Medieval times.
The territory (Map of Herodotus)
From an ethincal point of view, Libya would be the geographic territory inhabited by the Libyans. Nevertheless, there is no certitude about the boundaries of Ancient Libya. It was to the west of Ancient Egypt, and it was known as "IMNT" to the Ancient Egyptians like it was referred to with a feather which the Libyans used as an ornament. However, Libya it was mostly unknown to the Egyptians. Oric Bates tells here about that Libya was an unknown territory to the Egyptians, it was the lands of the spirits.
To the Ancient Greeks, Libya was one of the three known continents besides, Asia and Europe. In this sense, Libya was the whole African continent to the west of the Nile Valley. But Herodotus distinguished the authochone inhabitants into two people: The libyans in North Africa and the Etheopians in the south. According to Herodtus, Libya begins from where the western borders of Ancient Egypt, and ends in Cape Spartel in the south of Tangier on the Atlantic coast. This region was inhabited by the ancestors of the modern Berbers.
III- Ancient Libyans (Ancient Libyan from the pharohonic remains)
The ancietn Libyans were the inhabitant of North Africa to the west of Ancient Egypt. Those inhabitants had various tribal names. They were mentioned by the Ancient Egyptian-, Ancient Greek, Roman and Arab sources.
Egyptian sources The Ancient Egyptians mentioned many Libyan tribes. The most known tribes on the basis of the Egyptian Archeologic sources are respectively: The Tjehenu, the Tamahu, the Libu (or Ribu), Meshwesh. Those tribes were the most important Libyan tribes in the Egyptian sources. However, other less important tribes (or minor groups) were mentioned in the Egyptian sources.
Later sources After the Egyptians, the Greeks, Romans, and Byzantines mentioned other various tribes. The late tribal names are different from the Egyptian ones. But it is supposed that some tribes were named in the Egyptian sources and the later ones as well. The Meshwesh-tribe is an example for this assumption. The scholars believe it would be the same tribe called Mazyes by Hektaios and Maxyes by Herodotus, while it was called as "Mazaces" and "Mazax" in the Latin sources. All those names are somehow similar to the name used by the Berbers themselves Imazighen[10].
The sources of the late period gave more detailed descriptions for Libya and its inhabitants. Herodotus is the most notable ancient historian who tried to cover Libya and the Libyans in his fourth book, which is known as "The Libyan Book". In addition to him, Pliny the Elder, Diodorus Siculus and Procopius are considered the basic sources on Ancient Libya and the Libyans. But Ibn Khaldun, who dedicated the main part of his book Kitab el'ibar, which is known as "The history of the Berbers", didn't use the names: "Libya" and "Libyans" in his works. He used instead Arabic names: "The Old Maghreb" (El-Maghrib el-Qadim) and "The Berbers" (El-Barbar or El-Barabera(h)).
Unlike Ibn Khaldun who distinguished the Berbers into the Batr and the Baranis[11], Herodotus divided them into Eastern Libyans and Western Libyans. The Easten Libyans where the nomadic Libyans to the east of the Lake Tritonis. They lived as nomadic shepherds, while the Western Libyans who lived to the west of the Lake Tritonis where farmers who led sedentary life[12]. Both of Ibn Khaldun and Herodotus didn't distinguish the Libyans on the basis of their ethnic background, but according to their lifestyles. The distinction of Herodotus was also followed by the modern Historians, like Oric Bates in his book "The Eastern Libyans". Some other historians used the modern name of the Berbers in their works like the Frensh historian Gabriel Camps[13].
The Libyan tribes mentioned in those sources were: "Adyrmachidae", "Giligamae", "Asbystae", "Marmaridae", "Auschisae", "Nasamones", "Macae", "Lotus-eaters (or Lotophagi)", "Garamantes", "Gaetulians", "Maures(Berbers)", "Luwatae" and still many other tribes.
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: Ancient Libya was the region west of the Nile Valley, the home of ancient Egyptian civilization.
AE had more than one "home" the other is Nubia. Another problem I have with your posts in general is that you generally combine everyone in Tamazight into one group. I think there was more than one group of people living in the Ancient Sahara as most would agree. They were the ancestors of some Niger-Congo speakers who moved south, the ancestors of some Nilo-Saharan speakers, the ancestors of some Chadic and Berber speaking people who were not all pale skinned.
What you ofter call "Berber" traditions exist among other Sahelian peoples such as building megaliths, etc.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by MyRedCow:
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: Ancient Libya was the region west of the Nile Valley, the home of ancient Egyptian civilization.
AE had more than one "home" the other is Nubia. Another problem I have with your posts in general is that you generally combine everyone in Tamazight into one group. I think there was more than one group of people living in the Ancient Sahara as most would agree. They were the ancestors of some Niger-Congo speakers who moved south, the ancestors of some Nilo-Saharan speakers, the ancestors of some Chadic and Berber speaking people who were not all pale skinned.
What you ofter call "Berber" traditions exist among other Sahelian peoples such as building megaliths, etc.
Exactly, most of the data on this page is contrived and does not put the historic information in proper context. First and foremost, Berber is a language and does not denote ethnicity or lineage. Many different people from varied backgrounds make up the Berber population. Berber is not as old as the Neolithic. In fact, the oldest Berber language is held and practiced by the Tuareg and is called Tifanagh.
The Tuareg are a perfect example of ancient populations in the Sahara during the Neolithic and are not predominately pale skinned and pale skin is not indigenous to ancient African Sahelian groups. Therefore, such traits were introduced by invaders and others who displaced indigenous populations in places throughout North Africa. This includes the Pale Libyans, who did not start showing up until later in Egyptian history, after the invasions of the "Sea People". In fact, the earliest depictions of Libyans were of black Africans. Ancient Egyptians had two different names for these Libyan populations, Tehemu and Tehenu to reflect the different populations there. These later populations of pale skinned people adopted the dress and customs of the indigenous Africans that were already there.
Not only that, but physical evidence from throughout the Sahara and Sahel 6,000 years ago and earlier shows people with undeniably black features, like the black mummies that have been found that predate those of Egypt. Also, rock art in the Sahara, Sahel and elsewhere show people who are not the least bit pale skinned.
Along with the invasions of the sea people, pale skinned populations mainly came to North Africa and became predominant in Greek and Roman times, especially in places like Carthage and elsewhere. Many modern Amazigh populations in North Africans look very much like Italians and other European groups and is a testament to the long history of interactions of these two regions. Likewise, the spread of Islam also introduced a whole new group of people from the Levant and Arabia to the population of Northern Africa and the Northern Sahara. These migrations, often accompanied by fierce wars of conquest, forced the indigenous black populations, like the Tuareg to move South.
Populations in North Africa are not a group that has existed isolated from history and the migrations of people. They do not represent an ancient pale skinned population indigenous to North Africa and they do not represent all North Africans. North African populations are the result of a mixture of cultures populations and traditions that has been ongoing since about 4,000 years ago. However, this mixture does not extend into the Neolithic, as the evidence points towards an expansion from Africa into Europe as opposed to vice versa. The desertification of the Sahara and the resulting low population density are a large reason for the large impact of migrations on the diversity of North African populations. Likewise, prior to that any expansions and migrations of populations around 30,000 years ago would not necessarily have been one of pale skinned populations, as pale skin is a relatively recent evolutionary trait within the history of human beings.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
A lot of good research and written pretty well for someone whose mother tongue isn't English.
The only drawback, in my eyes, is the cartoonish distorted graphic of a Tamehu which was doctored to lend support to the 19th century idea that the lightest skinned figures in vignette 30 of the Portal of Teka Hra depicted ancestral Europeans instead of an African people.
Will post some more authentic repros later, maybe. Libyan (leftmost figure is of the generic TMHHW). These are tiles from Rameses III's funerary chapel (?).
Mazigh, why don't you start an ancient Tamazgha thread featuring only authentic artefacts? I know you have an "arsenal" of such pieces, please share them here.
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh:
III- Ancient Libyans (Ancient Libyan from the pharohonic remains)
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
By the time of the "Libyan" war expeditions against TaWy the term TMHHW/Tjemehu/Tamehu was generically used for all those indigenees west of the Nile's delta.
This man of the TMHHW is of the type with high yellow (yallah) complexion, wide nose with flaring nostrils, thick lips, high cheekbones, long, straight, black colored hair, mustache with scant beard, and big, out-from-head ears. This type still exists, slightly modified, in modern Libya.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: A lot of good research and written pretty well for someone whose mother tongue isn't English.
The only drawback, in my eyes, is the cartoonish distorted graphic of a Tamehu which was doctored to lend support to the 19th century idea that the lightest skinned figures in vignette 30 of the Portal of Teka Hra depicted ancestral Europeans instead of an African people.
Will post some more authentic repros later, maybe. Libyan (leftmost figure is of the generic TMHHW). These are tiles from Rameses III's funerary chapel (?).
Mazigh, why don't you start an ancient Tamazgha thread featuring only authentic artefacts? I know you have an "arsenal" of such pieces, please share them here.
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh:
III- Ancient Libyans (Ancient Libyan from the pharohonic remains)
I am surprised.... I mean you agree with this:
quote: The first reference to "Libya" in the Greek language is found in Homer's Odyssey (IX.95; XXIII.311). The name was used by Homer in a geographic sense, while he called its inhabitants Lotophagi meaning the "Lotus-eaters". After Homer, the name was used by Aeschylus, Pindar and other Ancient Greek writers. Herodotus used Libuwa indicating Libya while he called the Libyans Libyes in the Greek language. From his point of view, Libya was the name of the African continent, while "the Libyans" were the light-sikinned North Africans, whereas the southern Africans were known as "the Ethiopians" to him[7]. ......
This implies that all Libya was all of NorthWest Africa from Egypt to Morocco and that all of these people were light skinned. The Nasamoneans only occupied one part of Herodatus' map, which we all know is very inaccurate. On top of that, this whole area is larger than the continental U.S. but you imply that all of these people were the same. They were not. And, the ancestors of the Berbers are not one group. Light skinned "Libyans" are the result of the "Sea People" who invaded Egypt during the time of Ramesses and this is when you see them thus depicted. However, 18th dynasty and older Libyans were often depicted as black Africans. Berber, being a language group does not identify lineage or type, yet people still try make Berber into an ethnic identity meaning white North African. This is an obvious contradiction of the fact that the true ancestral population of North Africa are people like the Tuareg who are the main branch of Berbers who still write and speak Tifanagh. They are definitely not predominately light skinned. Not only that, ancient writers also identified black African populations along coastal North Africa in the area called Mauretania by the Romans. Likewise, there were the Numidians, Carthagenians and Garamantes all of whom had black Africans among the population.
The whole point being that this idea of light skinned Africans being the original indigenous population of North Africa is nonsense. They largely arrived within the last 4,000 years. Likewise those ancient populations who lived in the Sahara and produced the Rock Art at places like Tassili Niger are the true indigenes of this part of Africa and they did not speak Berber. The Tuaregs are a remnant of the once widespread pastoral nomadic populations that remained in the Sahara and throughout North Africa up until the last major invasion from Eurasia, by the Muslims. Berber is not an ethnicity and therefore not a Tribe or clan. Berber was the name that the Muslims applied to all people they met when they conquered Africa and it meant barbarian. These people did not call themselves that. Likewise all these people were not of the same appearance or type. Berber today is a hodgepodge of ethnic groups and subcultures all semi related by language, but not all the same in appearance.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Yes, the Greeks dubbed the continent we now call Africa with the name Libya. This is no new new. Herodotus writes of Libya being occupied by four groups of people, two of which were indigenous (Libyans and Aithiopians) and two who were foreign (Greeks and Phoenicians).
No implication involved. Greco-Latin authors were clear in assigning all land west of the Nile, south of the Mediterranean, and north of the Sahara to Libya proper.
Sorry, but the art with light skinned "Libyans" is contemporaneous with the Sea People invasion. Here's a piece before that time from the Aegean showing littoral North African ancient Libyans on the rooftop (notice the nallie yallie coloured women).
The Tuareg are rather late arrivals in northern African history and their own origin mythos don't paint them as ancients. Unless DNA lies, Kel Tagelmust peoples are related to the Medjay Beja much more so than to THHNW or TMHHW.
As for the THHNW and the aboriginal Africans who lived between the littoral and the Sahara, I've written what little I know about them from the old French archaeologists here a year or two ago.
We well know there was an African type there that was similar to yet as different as the Egyptians, Sudanese, and central Saharans are to each other.
The high yalla complexion of the TMHHW is still somewhat of a puzzle. Ttbomk, they first enter history in the Sudan not so very far from where some linguist proposes Tamazight derived.
I can only guess they may first have been coastal and early took on a penchant for H3W NBW women before moving southward. That, or maybe the lighter skinned "Libyans" liked the coastal climate with it's chilly winters much better than did their darker siblings. I don't know.
Anyway, the Tassili n'Ajjar is too far inland to explain anything, besides the fact that its people are probably at least partially ancestral to all groups in all directions of proximity including Serer, Teda, Soninke, "Haratine," etc.
And truth to tell we can't say exclusively what language(s) they all spoke. Unlike the Nile Valley art, we have little to no text accompanying the Saharan rock art. Most likely several language families (Nilo-Saharan, Niger-Congo, Afrisan) were spoken by varying populations of the region.
There's much more to Mazigh's post than this skin polemic you're making of it. I respect the Imazighen's right to self-determination in considering themselves a people whenever it was they began to do so. They certainly defended Haritin inclusion as Imazighen when an Egyptian official wanted to classify them as Gnawa just because they shared phenotype with Gnawa.
That's what being a people is all about. Inclusion based on cultural norms, language, music, foods, and the like, without exclusion due to phenotype. Of course those individuals who no longer belong to a people, ethny, "tribe," or what have you, have no idea of the meaning of belonging to a people because it's totally outside their day to day living experience as a reality, not an academic exercise.
So yes, your closing sentence is dead on the money "these people were not of the same appearance or type. [Amazigh] today [and yesterday for that matter, are] a hodgepodge of ethnic groups and subcultures all semi related by language, but not all the same in appearance. "
You seem to think biological determinism should be the deciding factor but, no, it isn't! They don't all have to have the same appearance (take the Black Americans, for example, whose appearances vary between the blackest of African types to nearly pinked skinned individuals with sandy hair and occasional blue or light gray eyes only differentiated from White Americans by societal mores).
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
alTakruri wrote:
quote:The Tuareg are rather late arrivals in northern African history and their own origin mythos don't paint them as ancients. Unless DNA lies, Kel Tagelmust peoples are related to the Medjay Beja much more so than to THHNW or TMHHW
Are you sure the following is correct,for Tuareg mythos states that they came from southern Morocco from Tin Hanan. Most Tuaregs in the Sahara or Sahel most likely were drove there by Bani Hilal bedouin tribes. Some still exist in parts of southern Libya. I know you have heard of the Hilalan invasion?
alTakruri wrote:
quote:They certainly defended Haritin inclusion as Imazighen when an Egyptian official wanted to classify them as Gnawa just because they shared phenotype with Gnawa
Are you sure it was an Egyptian offical or a Maghrebian offical?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by ausar: alTakruri wrote:
quote:The Tuareg are rather late arrivals in northern African history and their own origin mythos don't paint them as ancients. Unless DNA lies, Kel Tagelmust peoples are related to the Medjay Beja much more so than to THHNW or TMHHW
Are you sure the following is correct,for Tuareg mythos states that they came from southern Morocco from Tin Hanan. Most Tuaregs in the Sahara or Sahel most likely were drove there by Bani Hilal bedouin tribes. Some still exist in parts of southern Libya. I know you have heard of the Hilalan invasion?
alTakruri wrote:
quote:They certainly defended Haritin inclusion as Imazighen when an Egyptian official wanted to classify them as Gnawa just because they shared phenotype with Gnawa
Are you sure it was an Egyptian offical or a Maghrebian offical?
Exactly. I find it odd how Africans themselves will say that elements of their culture arrived from the Nile and other parts of North Africa, from black Africans, yet Europeans and other foreigners will be quick to try and refute this. For example, a while back I was looking up stuff on beads in Africa. The scholars said that the beads of West Africa came from Europe, since Africans couldn't make glass on their own.... The Africans said that they learned it from Egyptians and those along the Nile, which the scholar says is the oldest site of jewelry in Africa. Well looking at Egyptian reliefs you can see people trading with Egypt from the far interior of Africa, yet there is still this trend of cutting off Egypt from Africa culturally, physically and ethnically. All of which gives rise to the absurd notion that African culture was reintroduced to Africa by foreigners.... Africa has never been divided by the Sahara, culturally, ethnically or linguistically. Africans themselves, if allowed to tell their own history, could better explain the history of migrations and warfare that has brought them to where they are today. Unfortunately, many outside of Africa would rather carve out zones of history and ethnicity in Africa and try and divide Africa up. Notice how Africa South of the Sahara is considered one single entity, but North Africa is considered separate. Why is that? Africa South of the Sahara has more diversity in complexion and phenotype than any place else on the planet, so how on earth can these people be a monolithic group? They cant. Likewise, by starting with Berber speakers as the basis for the history of North Africa is to omit the majority of North Africa's history and omit the majority of people who were there for thousands of years and were not pale skinned people in the least.
What I am against is this nonsense of North African history starting with pale skinned Berbers. Sorry that is blatantly INCORRECT. North African history starts 20- 30,000 years ago or more and involves MANY migrations of people from within Africa who crissed crossed the Sahara going East, West, South and North. So if you are going to tell the story, tell the WHOLE story and not part of it. North African history does not start with the Berbers as Berber is a language and writing system which only goes back about 2-3000 years. The people who made the rock art of the Sahara are ancestral populations indigenous to North Africa and once roamed ALL of North Africa, including up to the coast. The Sahara was the pump which birthed many a civilization, including Egypt and Sudan, the Fulani, the Tuareg and the Nok and those Neolithic sites in Mauretania. Africans have been roaming far and wide in Africa for tens of thousands of years and the NOBODY introduced nomadism to Africa. NOBODY. The Fulani to this day wear the same style of dress with the feather in the cap as those Libyans depicted in ancient Egypt. The Fulani are another group that have oral traditions saying that they migrated from the Sahara. Many of them also trace their ancestry back to those who left the rock art in the Sahara. Then you have the Garamantes, the Carthaginians and the Numidians, who were also related to those ancestral people of the Sahara. However, while some did settle and produce the civilizations of North Africa, many chose to stick to a nomadic lifestyle in the Sahara proper. These people dont always get mentioned by the historians, but these are the people who have always been there even as other civilizations rose and fell. And seeing that Carthage and Numidia both had large populations who came from Greece and Rome, it is not suprising that these people would have left a mark on the local population. No doubt North Africa has received its fair share of migrants from elsewhere and they have every right to be proud of themselves, their history and culture. However, as I said earlier, North African history did not begin with light skinned populations who spoke Berber languages and by focusing on the first evidence of lighter skinned populations as the beginning of history in North Africa is nonsense. Likewise focusing on a narrow area along the coast of North Africa does not represent all of North Africa, which goes down to Chad, Mauretania, Niger and Northern Sudan. When some people say North Africa, they really mean the extreme coastal regions of North Africa and not North Africa proper.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
As I stated before:
Caution though, because sub-Saharan Africa is usually a victim of 'diffusionist' theories, just like in the case of the working of "iron" in West Africa, which were later found to be even older than those in the Nile Valley. Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Another tradition among Africans linking West Africa and the Nile:
quote: Ijebu Ode is a city located in south-western Nigeria at (6°49′N 3°56′E). With over 100,000 residents it is the second largest city in Ogun State after Abeokuta. In pre-colonial times it was the capital of the Ijebu kingdom.
It is the largest city inhabited by the Ijebus, a sub-group of the Yoruba ethnic group who speak the Ijebu dialect of Yoruba. It is historically and culturally the headquarters of Ijebuland.
However history and legend has it that Ijebus are actually distinct from the Yorubas because they are believed to have migrated to the present Ijebuland from an acient region called 'Ouwodaiye' or 'Waddai' in northern Sudan, which shared common border with the ancient Abyssinia. It is also believed to be a 'Cushite' or Nubian town. The ruler of Ijebu Ode, Oba Sikiru Adetona is known as the Awujale of Ijebuland. The city is located 110 km by road north-east of Lagos; it is within 100 km of the Atlantic Ocean in the eastern part of Ogun State and possesses a warm tropical climate.
Ijebu Ode has a local television station affiliated with the government's NTA network and is the trade center of a farming region where yams, cassava, grain, tobacco and cotton are grown.
Adjacent to Ijebu Ode are several smaller towns and villages. They are mostly referred to as Egure "this way to"; some of them include Odo-Agamegi, Ogbo, Italupe (a neighbourhood within Ijebu Ode), Ososa, Imawen, Odo Ogbun, Apa(Mesan), Okelamuren, Abapawa, Erunwon, Isonyin, Oke-Eri, Imagbon, Isiwo, Odo-lewu, Odo-Arawa, Idowa, Ala and Atiba amongst others. Ijebu Ode is made up of three parts - Iwade, Ijasi and Porogun. Italupe is a ward in Iwade, NOT an Egure of Ijebu - Ode.
1- That statement tht The Nile Valley would be the home of the Egyptian civilization, is removed it from the article (before reading the replies :à). It was written by some one others, and i didn't touch the introduction excepts of changing "The libyans spoke the Berber language" to "they were the ancestors of the Berbers".
2- That the Berbers are not an ethinc group is incorrect. The Berber language is a language. This is absolutely obvious. The name Berber is not used by the Berber themselves. This is also true, although not obvious. But they call themselves "Imazighen". Why??? Did the Arab hisotrians distinguish the Berbers into several sub-ethnicities???? All what i read says NO; They considered the Berbers as having one ancestor and being consisted of several tribes.
3- Whether the white Libyans or Berbers were indigenous in North Africa, is another subject.
4- The interesting data in the article is the identification of the word "Libu" and "Lwatae". How about this?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: 1- That statement tht The Nile Valley would be the home of the Egyptian civilization, is removed it from the article (before reading the replies :à). It was written by some one others, and i didn't touch the introduction excepts of changing "The libyans spoke the Berber language" to "they were the ancestors of the Berbers".
2- That the Berbers are not an ethinc group is incorrect. The Berber language is a language. This is absolutely obvious. The name Berber is not used by the Berber themselves. This is also true, although not obvious. But they call themselves "Imazighen". Why??? Did the Arab hisotrians distinguish the Berbers into several sub-ethnicities???? All what i read says NO; They considered the Berbers as having one ancestor and being consisted of several tribes.
3- Whether the white Libyans or Berbers were indigenous in North Africa, is another subject.
4- The interesting data in the article is the identification of the word "Libu" and "Lwatae". How about this?
I am just pointing out that the way the information is presented can be misleading. The Arabs called almost all Africans from Sudan to Mauretania Berber, meaining Barbarian. Therefore, you have a name that derives from a foreign construct and foreign perspective which does not respect the actual history or identity of the people being referred to. THey are lumped together out of convenience not any sense of historical accuracy. This happens a lot in Africa where people have come to adopt terms used by foreigners to identify themselves, but in the process lose many of the details of their history prior to the arrival of the foreigners and their foreign constructs.
As for Libu, I dont disagree that there are terms that have been used by people in and around North Africa that led to the modern name Libya.
Posted by Mazigh (Member # 8621) on :
The Arabs didn't use the word "Barbar" in a negative sense. It was the ethnic name of the Berbers who inhabited the region from Egypt to Mauritania.
Barbar was the son of Mazigh and one of the Berber ancestors, according to the arab theories/myths. Ibn khaldun did even call the Berbers Barabera which is identical to "Barbarians" in English. But it seems he confused it with "al-barbar" which means "berbers" like in English.
He was impressed by the ethics of those Berbers. And like i already said, the Berber population is not defined by the name "berbe"r. The illeterated berbers don't even know this name, unless if they heart it from a learnt one. They call themselves "Imazighen" which is purely a Berber/Amazigh name. In the article you can find a note on this name. i will shorten that article, and keep the link to the full article. (The time to edit it is elapsed, i hope Ausar can shorten it keeping the link to the full article, if he reads with us.)
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
It is interesting that the restorers of this photo have made the women on this artifact much lighter than the men. This is evident when we look at the female figure with a vase on her head.
It is interesting to note that the women with a vase on her head was made lighter by making the face of the figure pale. Next,they painted black hair, on the figure where her dark face was originally situated. Thusly making a new paler face for the figure than the original.
This retouching of the Thera mural figure is evident by the vase being situated further back on the female figure on top of an area which appeared to have been the original placement of the hair. It is a shape that researchers will go to such lengths to forge artifacts to make it appear that people were European in the Mediterranean at a time when Indo-Europeans had not invaded the area as the People of the Sea.
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Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: Barbar was the son of Mazigh and one of the Berber ancestors, according to the arab theories/myths. Ibn khaldun did even call the Berbers Barabera which is identical to "Barbarians" in English. But it seems he confused it with "al-barbar" which means "berbers" like in English.
The origin of the term Berber is Greek. All the following are variations...
Barbarian, Babble, Barbara, Berber.
Fundamentally - this term is a Greek mocking of the way Germanic speaking people [the original barbarians] talk.
The Arabs pick the term up from the Greeks, applying it to Africans, who were unrelated to the Germans.
Of course - it is not necessarily prejorative as used by the Arabs....although most all Arab terms for Non Islamic peoples tended to be prejorative, implicitly or explicitly.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
There are other forged artifacts to make it appear that the ancient Greeks were Indo-European rather than Black natives from Libya.
A good example is this mask.
A publication of the Archaeological Institute of America
Email this article Behind the Mask of Agamemnon Volume 52 Number 4, July/August 1999 by Spencer P.M. Harrington
"I have opened up a new world for archaeology," said Heinrich Schliemann after his 1871-1873 excavation of Troy. Schliemann was speaking the truth; the businessman-turned-archaeologist had shown that Homer's epics may have been based in fact. Schliemann next turned his attention to Mycenae, where the ancient geographer Pausanias had located the grave of Agamemnon, the leader of the Greek assault on Troy, and his fellow soldiers. Unlike previous scholars, Schliemann interpreted Pausanias as meaning the Homeric graves were within the walls of the late Bronze Age citadel, not outside. Tests Schliemann conducted in 1874 inside the wall revealed house walls, a tombstone, and terra-cotta artifacts--promising evidence for a future investigation.
Two years later, between August and December, he excavated at Mycenae on behalf of the Greek Archaeological Society, which held the excavation permit. His work was supervised by Panagiotis Stamatakis, a conscientious Greek archaeologist who often accused Schliemann of destroying classical antiquities in his quest for Homeric remains. Schliemann's workmen soon exposed stelae marking the perimeter of a grave circle 90 feet across just within the citadel's gate. By the end of August the first of five late Bronze Age shaft graves was found within it. This grave circle became known as grave circle A, its five tombs indicated with Roman numerals. A second grave circle, known as B, was found by Greek archaeologists outside the walls between 1951 and 1952. Its graves are labeled with Greek letters.
While Schliemann's diary and newspaper and book accounts of the location and dates of his discoveries in the shaft graves are often vague and contradictory, it is clear that by the end of November he had excavated tombs containing the bodies of several Mycenaean chieftains, five of whom wore gold face masks. Elated, Schliemann sent a telegram to King George of Greece:
With great joy I announce to Your Majesty that I have discovered the tombs which the tradition proclaimed by Pausanias indicates to be the graves of Agamemnon, Cassandra, Eurymedon and their companions, all slain at a banquet by Clytemnestra and her lover Aegisthos.
Though the graves were later shown to be at least 300 years earlier than the conjectured date of the Trojan War, for a time it appeared as though Schliemann had once again laid bare the Homeric world.
Of all the masks discovered at the site, the Mask of Agamemnon from grave V is the most famous. "I have gazed on the face of Agamemnon," Schliemann is said to have telegrammed a Greek newspaper on first seeing the mask. In fact, he himself never identified it as belonging to Agamemnon, but since it was the finest of the specimens it became associated with the hero. Nor did Schliemann ever note in writing the obvious stylistic differences--facial hair, ears cut out from the body of the mask--that set it apart from the others. In any case, the masks and gold jewelry Schliemann found at Mycenae brought him world fame; he was henceforth known as the Father of Mycenaean Archaeology.
Nearly 30 years ago, William M. Calder III, now a professor of classics at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, began to question the veracity of the claims in Schliemann's autobiographical writings. An award-winning author and editor of numerous books on nineteenth-century classical studies, Calder demonstrated that Schliemann had a penchant for self-mythologization. Stories he told about himself--his desire from the age of eight to excavate Troy, his 1851 White House meeting with President Millard Fillmore, his discovery of a bust of Cleopatra at Alexandria--were patently untrue. Calder also questioned the authenticity of the Mask of Agamemnon. "I've learned to doubt everything Schliemann said unless there is independent confirmation," said Calder. While his revisionist scholarship has been criticized by some (Machteld Mellink, a former president of the Archaeological Institute of America, characterized it as a "vendetta against Schliemann"), many now concur that Schliemann was a brilliant dissembler.
Late last year ARCHAEOLOGY received a manuscript from Calder restating his claim that the mask is a forgery. While his evidence is circumstantial, he believes that considered cumulatively it is sufficient to kindle skepticism. Because of its serious implications, ARCHAEOLOGY solicited responses from five experts, printing in full those of David A. Traill, author of Schliemann of Troy: Treasure and Deceit, and Katie Demakopoulou, former director of the National Archaeological Museum in Athens. Although several scholars refer to Traill's work, only Calder's text was circulated for comment.
"Is the Mask a Hoax?" by William M. Calder, III "Insistent Questions," by David A. Traill "The Case for Authenticity," by Katie Demakopoulou "Not A Forgery, How about a Pastiche?" by Kenneth D.S. Lapatin Epilogue
Of course the time of Tin Hanan and her handmaiden are very late in time compared to THHNW and TMHHW and from the exact opposite direction. And all that is just origin mythos. DNA intimates Kel Tagelmust commonality with Medjay/Beja, an ancient time to modern time community living between the Nile and the Red Sea not Morocco and the Atlantic Ocean.
Kel Tagelmust are confederations of diverse elements and didn't exist as a self-named entity anywhere in ancient times. Any people pushed southward from what today is Libya by Hilalians, as some researchers propose, only alligned with other peoples and in time all came together to comprise Kel Tagelmust peoplehood.
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What was the official's precise ethnicity, name, rank, and sultanate of his service? So far I've only Hagan's take on the matter and need to do more research. Afaik the official was an Egyptian in service to a Moroccan ruler circa 1690 CE.
My current research can only come up with the 'Alawite sultan Mulay Isma'il's recruitment of any blacks (Muslim or non-Muslim, free or enslaved, Haratin or Gnawa) for his personal "'Abid al Bukhari" army. He was opposed by many of Fez's ulema, the most vocal of whom he asassinated.
Maybe I'll open a separate thread on the above in order to finally clothe it and remove it from the realm of anecdote.
quote:Originally posted by ausar: alTakruri wrote:
quote:The Tuareg are rather late arrivals in northern African history and their own origin mythos don't paint them as ancients. Unless DNA lies, Kel Tagelmust peoples are related to the Medjay Beja much more so than to THHNW or TMHHW
Are you sure the following is correct,for Tuareg mythos states that they came from southern Morocco from Tin Hanan. Most Tuaregs in the Sahara or Sahel most likely were drove there by Bani Hilal bedouin tribes. Some still exist in parts of southern Libya. I know you have heard of the Hilalan invasion?
alTakruri wrote:
quote:They certainly defended Haritin inclusion as Imazighen when an Egyptian official wanted to classify them as Gnawa just because they shared phenotype with Gnawa
Are you sure it was an Egyptian offical or a Maghrebian offical?
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: There are other forged artifacts to make it appear that the ancient Greeks were Indo-European rather than Black natives from Libya.
A good example is this mask.
Behind the Mask of Agamemnon Volume 52 Number 4, July/August 1999
IS THE MASK A HOAX?
For 25 years I have researched the life of Heinrich Schliemann. I have learned to be skeptical, particularly of the more dramatic events in Schliemann's life: a White House reception; his heroic acts during the burning of San Francisco; his gaining American citizenship on July 4, 1850, in California; his portrayal of his wife, Sophia, as an enthusiastic archaeologist; the discovery of ancient Greek inscriptions in his backyard; the discovery of the bust of Cleopatra in a trench in Alexandria; his unearthing of an enormous cache of gold and silver objects at Troy, known as Priam's Treasure. Thanks to the research of archaeologist George Korres of the University of Athens, the German art historian Wolfgang Schindler, and historians of scholarship David A. Traill and myself, we know that Schliemann made up these stories, once universally accepted by uncritical biographers. These fictions cause me to wonder whether the Mask of Agamemnon might be a further hoax. Here are nine reasons to believe it may be:
1. Günter Kopcke of New York University's Institute of Fine Arts has stressed that the Agamemnon mask is stylistically different from all other Mycenaean masks. He draws attention to its distinctive eyebrows, ears, beard, and moustache. Kopcke suggests it is the work of an innovative and highly talented goldsmith: "Certainly the...mask is more original and has a stronger effect [on the viewer than the other masks]--the goldsmith...invested enthusiasm and pride in his craft."
2. Schliemann was quite ready to have duplicates of finds made that he would pass off as genuine. He had agreed to split his finds with the Ottomans in exchange for permission to excavate Troy. Once he discovered the gold and silver objects he called Priam's Treasure, however, Schliemann smuggled them to Greece. When it appeared as though the Ottomans might claim their fair share of the treasure, he explored the possibility of having forgeries manufactured in Paris to give to the Turks.
3. Memoirs of informed contemporaries preserve allegations that Schliemann planted finds with the intention of later "discovering" them. Among the skeptics were British scholars Sir Charles Newton, Percy Gardner, and A.S. Murray, who, discussing Schliemann's career, declared, "He who hideth can find." Ernst Curtius, director of the excavations at Olympia and professor of ancient history at Berlin, called him a schwindler und pfuscher (swindler and con-man). One could go on.
4. The Mycenae excavations took place between August 7 and December 3, 1876. The mask was discovered on November 30, 1876. Three days later the excavations were closed. Similarly, excavations at Troy were closed just after the discovery of Priam's Treasure. In both cases did Schliemann simply assume that the most valuable objects had been found, or had he only found what he had planted?
5. Excavations were also closed on November 26 and 27 while Schliemann was away. Where was he? A relative of his wife, Sophia, is alleged to have been an Athenian goldsmith. Did Schliemann obtain the mask from Sophia's relative in Athens, then return to Mycenae and bury it, to find it on the 30th?
6. Priam's Treasure is the richest single find in all Bronze Age Anatolia and was rumored to have been improved by modern additions. No Mycenaean grave has one-tenth of what was in shaft grave V. Was Schliemann's luck at Mycenae too good to be true?
7. There are suspicious details in Schliemann's publication of the mask. I quote his Mycenae: A Narrative of Researches and Discoveries at Mycenae and Tiryns (1880):
In a perfect state of preservation, on the other hand, is the massive golden mask of the body at the south end of the tomb (No. 474). Its features are altogether Hellenic and I call particular attention to the long thin nose, running in a direct line with the forehead, which is but small. The eyes, which are shut, are large, and well represented by the eyelids; very characteristic is also the large mouth with its well-proportioned lips. The beard also is well represented, and particularly the moustaches, whose extremities are turned upwards to a point, in the form of crescents. This circumstance seems to leave no doubt that the ancient Mycenaeans used oil or a sort of pomatum in dressing their hair. Both masks are of repoussé work, and certainly nobody will for a moment doubt that they were intended to represent portraits of the deceased, whose faces they have covered for ages.... We are amazed at the skill of the ancient Mycenaean goldsmiths, who could model the portraits of men in massive gold plate, and consequently do as much as any modern goldsmith would be able to perform.
One searches for a subtext. The opening reference to "a perfect state of preservation" is intended to anticipate suspicion. The mask's long, thin Hellenic nose makes me suspicious, as if it were created to fit the idea of Greek nobility articulated by the influential eighteenth-century German art historian Johann Joachim Winckelmann. Stress on the moustaches suggests that Schliemann believes them to be the most suspicious detail. He anticipates the objection that upturning a moustache requires pomade, which the Greeks did not possess, by asserting, through circular argument, that because of the moustaches, Greeks must have possessed pomade. At the end he shows his hand: "the ancient Mycenaean goldsmiths...could...do as much as any modern goldsmith." Why mention modern goldsmiths unless Schliemann knew that indeed a modern goldsmith had made the mask? In the English edition there is a note after "crescents" stating, "There is nothing new under the sun."
8. Schliemann stated that he had excavated objects which in fact he had purchased. One example is the so-called Cleopatra bust which he claimed to have excavated from a trench in Alexandria in February 1888. Wolfgang Schindler, however, pointed out that Schliemann's alleged 25- to 35-foot-deep trench would have been considerably below Alexandria's water table; the bust was most likely purchased a year before from an Egyptian dealer. There are also Attic inscriptions published by Schliemann and said by him to have been excavated in his garden. George Korres showed they were in fact bought from private collections.
9. There are obvious motives for Schliemann to have buried and excavated a modern forgery. He wanted to close the excavations with a bang. He also desperately needed a Herrscherbild, a portrait of a leader. The other four masks--billiard bald or pancake-flat--were not worthy of a great king. The authenticity of these masks is substantiated by later, similar finds. We must recall how contemporary German artists imagined Agamemnon. The great example is the brooding Agamemnon in a wall painting depicting Achilles dragging the fallen Hector about Troy in the Achilleion, a villa built on Corfu between 1890 and 1891. He has a full black beard and moustache. The closest parallel to the moustaches on the mask are those of Bismarck, Wilhelm I, and Wilhelm II. Prussian men of power, in Schliemann's day and after, all boasted beards and moustaches. Clearly Agamemnon required one. Schliemann ordered a Herrscherbild that combined Winckelmann's Greek nose with Hohenzollern facial hair.
My evidence is circumstantial. When considered cumulatively, however, it is enough to make me skeptical. If the mask is genuine, Schliemann is the luckiest archaeologist until Howard Carter. If it is a fake, he was a genius who duped the leading archaeologists and historians in the world for more than a century. Because I am a great admirer of Schliemann and spend a lot of time studying his life, I hope it is a fake. It is much better to be a genius than just lucky.
William A. MacDonald of the University of Minnesota observed that modern Schliemann research "is a mean spirited scholarly enterprise--particularly when aimed at one who cannot defend himself.... If deposits of genuine artifacts were salted with fake copies, scientific tests (not unsupported insinuations) are the constructive way to ascertain the facts."
The fact is that David Traill has more than once sought to test the mask, and the National Museum in Athens has consistently denied his request. This has always puzzled me. A metallurgist could silence annoying critics. What we must have is a public test by an independent expert not associated with the National Museum.--WILLIAM M. CALDER, III
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Lusitanas with meu caro and Black Americans with yo, mamma would like to think those are firsts. But did the ancient Libyans beat 'em both to the punch with Karomama? (clickable link)
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Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Who is this? I never seen it before?
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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Ease up mamma
An authenticated unprovenanced high priced piece of art being auctioned off on Ebay that's supposed to be Karomama
quote:History
In the first half of the 11th century a tehenu (Libyan) named Buyuawa lived at Herakleopolis. His son became father of the local God Hershef and great chief of the Meshwesh. This position was inherited by his descendents. One of these, Sheshonq, married a widowed Queen. During the time of Pinedjem II he was recipient of an oracle from Amen at Thebes in favour of a mortuary cult for his father and good fortune for himself and the army. His grandson, Sheshonq I, became founder of the 22nd Dynasty at Bubastis with the support of the army and consolidated his reign by marrying his son Osorkon to a daughter of Psusennes II. The Libyans accepted Egyptian culture in a superficial way, retaining their separate group identity and militaristic outlook. She also held the titles of Mistress of All the Land and Mistress of All Appearances .
"Queen Karomama II" Queen Karomama II, Merymut was born in 865 B.C.. She was the daughter of Nimlot who was the powerful High Priest of Amun and the half brother of Pharaoh Osorkon II(874-850 B.C.). At a very young age she became the "Divine Adoratrice", "High Priestess of Amun". She was later married to her cousin Takelot II(850-825 B.C.) son of Osorkon II. She is remembered by a superb bronze, silver and gold gilded statue discovered in 1829 and now located at the Louvre musuem in Paris.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Ease up mamma
An nonauthenticated unprovenanced high priced piece of art being auctioned off on Ebay that's supposed to be one Karomama
quote:Ancient Egyptian"Queen as Divine Adoratrice of Amun"
The above listed item is from the Third Intermediate Period,(1075-715 B.C.E.). This "Queen as Divine Adoratrice" is carved from stone composite. She truly resembles the visage of Queen Karomama II, daughter of Nimlot and wife of Takelot II, seen in statues at the museum in Louvre, France. Due to the lack of a Takelot II nd's cartouche, this can be only be speculation to Queen Karomama II by her facial features. These Intermediate Period pieces are very rare, hard to acquire, and almost never forged. She has a very visible row of hieroglyphics on reverse and there are traces of black paint. The item is intact, has a minor age crack and age wear. A true relic and a classic example of an Intermediate Period Queen depicted as an "Adoratrice of Amun." The reason for the item being available is due to the vast extent of archeological findings, thousands of years in Egyptian burials and also the proliferation of these said items in older private collections worldwide.
In the first half of the 11th century a Tehenu (Libyan) named Buyuawa lived at Herakleopolis. His son became father of the local God Hershef and great chief of the Meshwesh. This position was inherited by his descendents. One of these, Sheshonq, married a widowed Queen. During the time of Pinedjem II he was recipient of an oracle from Amen at Thebes in favour of a mortuary cult for his father and good fortune for himself and the army. His grandson, Sheshonq I, became founder of the 22nd Dynasty at Bubastis with the support of the army and consolidated his reign by marrying his son Osorkon to a daughter of Psusennes II. The Libyans accepted Egyptian culture in a superficial way, retaining their separate group identity and militaristic outlook. She also held the titles of Mistress of All the Land and Mistress of All Appearances . "Queen Karomama II" Queen Karomama II, Merymut was born in 865 B.C.. She was the daughter of Nimlot who was the powerful High Priest of Amun and the half brother of Pharaoh Osorkon II(874-850 B.C.). At a very young age she became the "Divine Adoratrice", "High Priestess of Amun". She was later married to her cousin Takelot II(850-825 B.C.) son of Osorkon II. She is remembered by a superb bronze, silver and gold gilded statue discovered in 1829 and now located at the Louvre musuem in Paris.
BTW won't you post us that full size image of Karomama from your site? Please?
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