An American academic, who teaches at the Warwick University in the United Kingdom, has described J R R Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings trilogy as an 'epic rooted in racism'.
Dr Stephen Shapiro, an expert in cultural studies, race and slavery, said the author used his novels to present bigotry through a fantasy world.
Following the release in UK of the film The Two Towers, the second in the series, Dr Shapiro told rediff.com that the books represent anxieties about immigration in mid-1950s Britain.
He said: "Put simply, Tolkien's good guys are white and the bad guys are black, slant-eyed, unattractive, inarticulate and a psychologically undeveloped horde."
In the trilogy, a small group, the fellowship, is pitted against a foreign horde and this reflects long-standing Anglo-European anxieties about being overwhelmed by non-Europeans, he said.
This is consistent with Tolkien's Nordicist convictions. He thinks the Northern races had a culture and it was carried in the blood, Dr Shapiro said.
While Tolkien describes the Hobbits and Elves as amazingly white, ethnically pure clans, their antagonists, the Orcs, are a motley dark-skinned mass, akin to tribal Africans or aborigines. The recent films amplify a 'fear of a black planet' and exaggerate this difference by insisting on stark white-black colour codes, Dr Shapiro said.
He added: "Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings because he wanted to recreate a mythology for the English, which had been destroyed by foreign invasion. He felt the Normans had destroyed organic English culture. There is the notion that foreigners destroy culture and there was also a fantasy that there was a solid homogeneous English culture there to begin with, which was not the case because there were Celts and Vikings and a host of other groups.
"We have a pure village ideal, which is being threatened by new technologies and groups coming in. I think the film has picked up on this by colour coding the characters in very stark ways.
"For instance, the fellowship is portrayed as uber-Aryan, very white and there is the notion that they are a vanishing group under the advent of the other, evil ethnic groups.
"The Orcs are a black mass that doesn't speak the languages and are desecrating the cathedrals.
"For today's film fans, this older racial anxiety fuses with a current fear and hatred of Islam that supports a crusading war in the Middle East. The mass appeal of The Lord of the Rings, and the recent movies may well rest on racist codes."
Dr Shapiro said that the trilogy, which began in the 1930s and published in the 1950s, was written at the onset of de-colonisation, when the first immigrants from the Caribbean and Indian subcontinent came to Britain. The Midlands, Tolkien's model for the Shire, was becoming a multicultural region.
A spokesman for Harper Collins, publisher of the trilogy, accused Dr Shapiro of mixing up his dates: "The copyright for The Fellowship of the Ring, the first in the series, was 1954. Tolkien would have finished writing the book quite a bit before the mid-50s and certainly the idea would have come a number of years before, given the sheer size of the book. So I think the timing is out.
"A number of academics have commented on Tolkien's work and this is the first time anybody has ever seen these issues in it. Of course, if you look hard enough at many great epics, you can extrapolate what you like, particularly if you have academic kudos behind you.
"A number of people have said that they think The Lord of the Rings could be an allegory for the Second World War, or indeed the first, as Tolkien fought in it, but it was never a view that he agreed with. His great abiding passion and interest came from the Icelandic sagas and mythology, and this was his version of one of those sagas."
Richard Crawshaw, a trustee for the Tolkien Society, said: "There was definitely no racial intent in his work. He detested racism." Posted by Calypso (Member # 8587) on :
quote:"A number of academics have commented on Tolkien's work and this is the first time anybody has ever seen these issues in it.
I've read the Ring Trilogy a couple of times and, although I enjoyed reading it, I'm surprised that the barely sublimated racsism has not been commented on before.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
I mentioned awhile ago on the old Nile Valley forum LOTR's key mytho-elements of racial purity and whiteness, and the threat of the Blacks, the Arabs, the Asiatics....Hyenna riding, Elephant riding [channeling Hannibal?] enemies of "Middle Earth" {aka Euro-central?]
The whole 'return of the king' concept was about restoring Europes waning racial purity by mating the super-white heir to the throne Aragon [Aryan?] with Elves who are even whiter.
Also the the big speech about 'men of the west unite' during the climatic final battle all but drops pretense of anything other than a rallying of the whites against all of their potential enemies - Asiatic, African, Arabian, etc..
The point of this isn't to critique a particular book, but to understand the psychological roots of the racist discourse in history.
It is a comprehensively perverted world-view, which even Africanists can unconsciously succumb to, because we are subtly propagandised with it every day.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Well, it only works if you believe in FANTASY stories as REAL history. Real history says that ancient Western European civilization that originates among the mountain valleys of Western Europe and "Germania" is a FARCE. Civilization originated THOUSANDS of years prior to that in lands to the South and East and had nothing to do with the "white" Elves of the Western European forest.
In fact, the ULTIMATE fantasy is to think of Elves as western European. In all reality all the tales of the elves ACTUALLY are reflections on ancient cultures of Africa, Asia and elsewhere, who DID worship nature. The dwarves refer back to the ancient anu and Twa of Africa and elsewhere. The hobbits are the small people that some scientists say existed in places as far away as Australia. So all this talk about racism in the Lord of the Rings only reflects a FANTASY of Europe being the ORIGIN of high culture and civilization when it wasnt. So no matter the racial overtones, it is still PURE FANTASY to me.
However, what this FANTASY story does reflect is a FANATICAL desire among Western Europeans to put THEMSELVES on top of everyone else as a way of GETTING BACK at everyone else for being the LAST to become "civilized". In this way such fantasy stories become the base "truth" that Europeans hold self evident and are the keys to their manifest destiny. NONE of it is REAL, but the IDEA is what counts, which states that Europeans are must become the Kings of Kings on the world stage and return power and glory to Europe, regardless of whether ancient Europe was the HOME of civilization or not, basically WHITE supremacy 101.
Actually, to the reality is that the Myths reflect a way of Europeans trying to deny the fact that the TRUTH of history was that Western Europe was on the RECIEVING end of culture and CIVLIZATION and that they were BACKWARDS compared to their neighbors in the South and East. Their embarrassment at this state of BACKWARDNESS compared to Rome, Greece, Africa(Egypt, Sudan, ets) and ultimately the golden age Islamic empires of the Moors and later the Ottomans, is what sparked their desire to become "masters" of the world, based on a FANATICAL claim of racial purity (which never existed in fact). Western Europeans are descendents of populations who migrated North and were basically CUT OFF from the developments of civilization that were occurring in WARMER climes to the South and East. I am not claiming that the Europeans are INFERIOR, however. But I am claiming that much of Europe's claim to greatness is based on a whole BOATLOAD of B.S. that is NOT based on any historical fact and that Western Europe was the LAST to become civilized among men, not the FIRST.
This mythology of Western Europeans being the ORIGIN of civilization is behind the RACISM and oppression that parades around as civilization. It can be seen as expressed in the Aryanist doctrines, the Christian attitude toward indigenous people and the ECONOMIC exploition of indigenous populations. ALL of it has its origins in the MYTHOLOGY of Western Europe being the ORIGIN of civilization and culture, when it WAS NOT.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Well, it only works if you believe in FANTASY stories as REAL history.
I wish that were true. Unfortunately the relationships are subliminal and devastating.
How many images of Africa have been shaped by Tarzan?
How many Black American Baptist churches worship the blonde, blue eyed image of Jesus?
How many so called Africanist continue the racial discourse rooted in the assumptive purity of the white race of Europe, and the assumed miscgenation of Africans and East Asians visa the European 'standard'?
This fantasy/ideology is reflected in the Sudan genocide....the Rwanda genocide, and the more self defeating discourses of so called Afro-centrism.
Hamites are as much a of myth has Hobbits.
The Middle East is as much of a false construct as Middle Earth.
Posted by Calypso (Member # 8587) on :
quote:The point of this isn't to critique a particular book, but to understand the psychological roots of the racist discourse in history.
The appeal of this type myth is a vein that runs through European (inclusive of its offshoots) history. It often finds an expression through art.
The Nazis appealed to a pure Aryan past subverted by Jews and Slavs. Richard Wagner's operas (The Nibelung's Ring, etc.,) were used to rally Germans to this vision.
We still can't shake off the Pharaonic race nonsense in Egypt. To this day we can barely find a TV documentary about ancient Egypt in which the pharaohs are not depicted as white.
DW Griffith's racist movie, Birth of a Nation, is another example of this myth of a pure white past (southern damsels, moonlight and marigolds)subverted by the presence of a vile inferior race. This movie is still hailed as a "great" movie despite its unrelenting racism.
It seems to be a way for Europeans to rationalize their agression against others.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
DougM
quote: Civilization originated THOUSANDS of years prior to that in lands to the South and East and had nothing to do with the "white" Elves of the Western European forest.
The white Elves is also a myth. Many of the Wee people, when you read the authentic literature were described as small black people. These small Blacks may refer to the pgymies who formerly occupied the ancient world until the Great Flood destroyed their civilization.
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Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
It's a known fact that many of the old fantasy writers like J.R.R. Tolkien (LOTR trilogy and other Middle Earth epics) and C.S. Lewis (Chronicles of Narnia) wrote their novels with racial ideals in mind. Where everybody is white, and all the dark-skinned people are evil or something. TCON is more blatant...I've read in some of the later books, black-skinned people are referred to as "darkies" and other derogatory terms.
Problem is, when people think of a fantasy movie...THIS is what they think of. They think fantasy is all about elves and dwarves and orcs...when there are HUNDREDS of fantasy stories from ALL regions from around the world! Why should one aspect of fantasy (the European kind often portrayed) be pushed into films when all others are left out?
On the plus side though, there's a new fantasy movie coming out called Eragon. It is more recently written (meaning 2002). It's the first book in a trilogy...
I don't know how good it's going to do, but I know Djimon Honsou is in it and he plays a character named Ajihad. A good guy who leads a group called the Varden.
Here is the movie website. You can see the trailer on there too.
Posted by Calypso (Member # 8587) on :
quote:The white Elves is also a myth. Many of the Wee people, when you read the authentic literature were described as small black people.
Obviously Elves and Dwarfs are myths. These myths probably arose innocently among Europeans some time in pre-history. Whether or not Elves and Dwarves refer to real people is debatable. To go back and forth about the "real" elves being black or white is destined to be an exercise in futility.
The more interesting aspect of this conversation is the intentional appeal to myths in the service of racism and xenophobia.
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote: Obviously Elves and Dwarfs are myths. These myths probably arose innocently among Europeans some time in pre-history. Whether or not Elves and Dwarves refer to real people is debatable. To go back and forth about the "real" elves being black or white is destined to be an exercise in futility.
Not really. Like the struggles of Hercules, many of the myths and fairy tales about Dwarves go back to the conflict between the Indo-Europeans and Blacks who were ruling Europe when the Indo-Europeans arrived on the scene.
These Black rulers of Europe are often referred to as Dwarves or Ogres. These Blacks were supposed to have lived in castles and possessed fabulous treasures. In most of the fairy tales about these Blacks whites are trying to steal their treasures and their land.
The term Ogres, probably comes from the word Ugrian, an early name for the Blacks . One of the major Ugrian tribes was the Magyar=Hungarians who trace their origins back to the Sudan in Africa.
You're correct that the words Hungarian and Ogre have similar roots. Both words refer to the HUNS, as in Atilla the Hun, who invaded Europe from the Eurasian steppes. Your theory of a Sudanic provenance is far-fetched at best.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Calypso
quote: You're correct that the words Hungarian and Ogre have similar roots. Both words refer to the HUNS, as in Atilla the Hun, who invaded Europe from the Eurasian steppes. Your theory of a Sudanic provenance is far-fetched at best.
^^The Huns and Magyar are two different groups.
Calypso before you make this claim you should read the information at the website I posted.
The Sudani origin for the Hungarians has been reconstructed by Hungarians/Magyar themselves. This is not my theory
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Posted by Calypso (Member # 8587) on :
Dr. Winters, I read your post. But even before I read it I knew what was coming...Mande Magyars!!!
These Mande ubermensch seem to be everywhere. What impelled their many travels would you say? Perhaps, the hot climate? Was it perhaps a tad too draughty for them in Mandeland?
Posted by ARROW99 (Member # 11614) on :
Oh please. Not a single soul who watch those three films had a single racial thought about them. What about 101 Dalmations? They had black spots on a white dog. Maybe there was something sinister in that movie as well.
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: Oh please. Not a single soul who watch those three films had a single racial thought about them. What about 101 Dalmations? They had black spots on a white dog. Maybe there was something sinister in that movie as well.
We're not saying they did. We're putting the books into context with history.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:not a single soul who watch those three films had a single racial thought
Actually the books and films have a known following among white supremacists groups.
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Calypso: Dr. Winters, I read your post. But even before I read it I knew what was coming...Mande Magyars!!!
These Mande ubermensch seem to be everywhere. What impelled their many travels would you say? Perhaps, the hot climate? Was it perhaps a tad too draughty for them in Mandeland?
I agree. You see, this is what I'm talking about...hyper-diffusionism. I guess to Clyde, the whole world was brought about by the Mande :roll: .
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Calypso
quote:
Dr. Winters, I read your post. But even before I read it I knew what was coming...Mande Magyars!!!
These Mande ubermensch seem to be everywhere. What impelled their many travels would you say? Perhaps, the hot climate? Was it perhaps a tad too draughty for them in Mandeland?
You can't read. There is nothing in the webpage talking about the Magyar were Mande speakers. The Magyar claim they were Kushites. They speak Magyar.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
King_Scorpion
quote:
I agree. You see, this is what I'm talking about...hyper-diffusionism. I guess to Clyde, the whole world was brought about by the Mande :roll: .
You don't know what you're talking about. The Magyar don't claim a Mande origin.
quote:
Dr. Vamos-Toth Bator has opened up the world to new knowledge about the toponyms and cultural traits that connected the ancient world civilizations. He has been able to use linguistic, anthropological and historical-toponymic evidence to vividly make us aware of Tamana culture.
The Hungarian people speak the Magyar language. Many researchers have assumed that the Magyar people only recently arrived in the Carpathian Basin from Asia. This is not necessarily true for all the Magyar.
The Magyar trace their origins back to ancient Nubia. The Arvisurak , an ancient book of the Magyar said that the name Uz was applied to the ancient Magyar, the largest tribe of the Black Huns .
Tibor Barath, has given a considerable amount of data which indicates that the Kushites from Nubia, played an important role in the formation of the Magyar. As a result we find that the Magyar/Hungarian language is closely related to African and Dravidian languages.
The Proto-Magyar were one of the many ethnic groups which formerly lived in the Fertile African Crescent. They offered prayers to *kan, e.g., Magyar kan, konyorog, Manding kani, and Dravidian ka-n. They also worshipped the god Amon, who they called Anya (Winters, 1986).
The name Maa is found in many Proto-Saharan ethnonyms. For example the Manding called themselves Ma-nde (the children of Ma), the Sumerians called themselves Mah-Gar-ri (exalted God's children), and the Magyar of ancient times referred to themselves as Muh-ger-ri , or Ma-ka-r (exalted children) (Winters,1986).
According to David MacRitchies the most ancient Uralic speakers were called czernii ugris or 'Black Ugris'. The Ugris were also called Hunni. The name Ugrian, is the origin for the word Hungarian. The Hungarians were also called Sabatocospali ,"the Blacks".
The Carpathian blacks arrived in the area in the 4th millennium B.C. The Tripolye culture dates from 3800 to 2100 B.C. The Tripolye culture was established in the Ukraine, Moldavia and Romania along the Siret River in the Ukraine.
The Tripolye people may have collected/cultivated barley, millet and wheat. They also had domesticated cattle, sheep-goats and pigs. As in Africa, their principle domesticate at this time was cattle .
During the middle Neolithic copper was being exploited in several mountainous regions of Europe. The center for copper mining in Europe was the Carpathian mountains. Many copper objects have been found on Tripolyean sites .
Many animal and human figurines have been found on Tripolyean sites. The Tripolye rotund ceramic female figurines are analogous to the rotund female figurines found in ancient Nubia.
It appears that for over a millennium the Linear Pottery and Cris farming groups practiced agriculture in the core region of Tripolyean culture. The middle Neolithic Tripolye people on the other hand are associated with cattle herding and mining.
Tibor Barath, The Early Hungarians, Montreal, 1983.
Tibor Barath, Magyar Nepek Ostordenete, Montreal, 1974.
Gaber Jaki, Smerok Magyar Foldon (Sumerian in Magarland), Buenos Aires, 1972.
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Calypso
quote:
These Mande ubermensch seem to be everywhere. What impelled their many travels would you say? Perhaps, the hot climate? Was it perhaps a tad too draughty for them in Mandeland?
The Mande speakers who settle Europe and Asia after 2500 BC went there in search of metals.
The Mande speakers who founded the Olmec civilization a thousand years later fled to the New World as a result desertification of the Sahara. They could not find homes in West Africa or Chad because these places were heavily settled at this time. They could not live in the Niger Valley because it was too heavily forested and full of illnesses.
.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Well, it only works if you believe in FANTASY stories as REAL history.
Agreed. People have a choice of being objective, progressive and open-minded.
Posted by Calypso (Member # 8587) on :
quote:Dr Winters wrote: You can't read.
Jeez, such a rush to judgement Doctor.
quote:Dr. Winters wrote: There is nothing in the webpage talking about the Magyar were Mande speakers. The Magyar claim they were Kushites. They speak Magyar.
Got it Doctor: Magyars were Kushites!
Now, moving boldly forward. Greeks and other southern Europeans had myths and legends (probably with some basis in reality) that were not xenophobic or racist but to the contrary glorified in their relationship with people outside Europe. When did this change? Was it with Alexander the Great's conquest of Egypt?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Alexander was the prime proponent of miscegenation.
Hellenism (syncretism of Hellene with any and all non-Hellene cultures and individuals)is due to him.
Posted by Calypso (Member # 8587) on :
quote: alTakruri wrote: Alexander was the prime proponent of miscegenation.
Hellenism (syncretism of Hellene with any and all non-Hellene cultures and individuals)is due to him.
But my understanding is that Alexandria was somewhat barred to native Egyptians. If this is true then the element of xenophobia was already in place. Perhaps the Ptolemies differed from Alexander as regards syncretism?
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
Imperialists can be xenophobic and at the same time attempt to legitimize their morally bankrupt 'occupation' of a foreign, presumably in eyes of the folks of the land they "invaded" uninvited, through political means, which in the case of the Greeks, was to synchronize certain Egyptian deities and other cosmological elements with their own, while in other cases, this is done by the planting of a local 'proxy' administration of the imperialist. The former, that is, via religious synchronization, is relatively rare, being that Ancient Egypt was considered a father-like figure culture to the ancient Greek one.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote: Striking but true! For more than 100 years after Champollion was able to read and understand Egyptian Hieroglyphics, there was not a single Egyptian Egyptologist!
Egyptology is as much a Pan-European doctrine as it is a true science.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I have it (perhaps incorrectly) that Alexander more or less encouraged his troops take wives from the conquered (to speed up integration of the various countries and ethnies of his vast transcontinental empire).
Alexander never as much as saw Alexandria because the city wasn't completed until after his demise.
My unsubstantiated feeling is that if Clitus Niger was indeed a dark African Alexander would have no Afrophobia/anti-blackism. That, coupled with the way he valued the oracle of Amon in Libya, leads me believe that when he designed the city forced segregation was not a consideration.
Alexander's empire was "inherited" by his top generals.
Relevant to our studies, Seleucos got the Levant and Mesopotamia. Ptolemy got Egypt and the two adjacent territories of eastern Libya and Sinai/Palestine.
At what point one of the Ptolemys introduced discrimination and segregation, if not from the beginning, I don't know but indeed they did even though initially the first Ptolemy did adapt certain elements of AE culture much of which his successors retained.
quote:Originally posted by Calypso: ]But my understanding is that Alexandria was somewhat barred to native Egyptians. If this is true then the element of xenophobia was already in place. Perhaps the Ptolemies differed from Alexander as regards syncretism?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol: I mentioned awhile ago on the old Nile Valley forum LOTR's key mytho-elements of racial purity and whiteness, and the threat of the Blacks, the Arabs, the Asiatics....Hyenna riding, Elephant riding [channeling Hannibal?] enemies of "Middle Earth" {aka Euro-central?]
The whole 'return of the king' concept was about restoring Europes waning racial purity by mating the super-white heir to the throne Aragon [Aryan?] with Elves who are even whiter.
Also the the big speech about 'men of the west unite' during the climatic final battle all but drops pretense of anything other than a rallying of the whites against all of their potential enemies - Asiatic, African, Arabian, etc..
The point of this isn't to critique a particular book, but to understand the psychological roots of the racist discourse in history.
It is a comprehensively perverted world-view, which even Africanists can unconsciously succumb to, because we are subtly propagandised with it every day.
^I knew I wasn't the only one who was able to percieve all the above subliminal racist messages, practically all of my non-white friends as well as even some of my white friends were able to see them.
And yes the elephant and hyena riding Arabs couldn't be more blatant!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: Oh please. Not a single soul who watch those three films had a single racial thought about them. What about 101 Dalmations? They had black spots on a white dog. Maybe there was something sinister in that movie as well.
LMAO Good ol' Hore was known to bring laughs some laughs to this board!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Well, it only works if you believe in FANTASY stories as REAL history.
I wish that were true. Unfortunately the relationships are subliminal and devastating.
How many images of Africa have been shaped by Tarzan?
How many Black American Baptist churches worship the blonde, blue eyed image of Jesus?
How many so called Africanist continue the racial discourse rooted in the assumptive purity of the white race of Europe, and the assumed miscgenation of Africans and East Asians visa the European 'standard'?
This fantasy/ideology is reflected in the Sudan genocide....the Rwanda genocide, and the more self defeating discourses of so called Afro-centrism.
Hamites are as much a of myth has Hobbits.
The Middle East is as much of a false construct as Middle Earth.
Indeed, as can be seen by works from Winters even in this board.
The Tripolye culture is a Neolithic culture that developed in Eastern Europe. While we know the Neolithic is derived in Africa, we have no evidence of there being any actual "blacks in the Carpathians". Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Also, what are we to make of the new movie Eragon? Another film based on European myth only this time I see a black man in it-- a character played by the actor Djimon Hounsou. If you ask me it is just another Euro-fantasy war-adventure like LOTR except with a token black man! LOL Posted by Underpants Man (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Also, what are we to make of the new movie Eragon? Another film based on European myth only this time I see a black man in it-- a character played by the actor Djimon Hounsou. If you ask me it is just another Euro-fantasy war-adventure like LOTR except with a token black man! LOL
Not to mention one that takes a lot of inspiration for its plot from Star Wars. At least the dragon looked cool and had a sexy voice.
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
Calypso, actually it was not Alexander or the Ptolemies that barred Egyptians from going into Alexandria but actually the Romans. The Romans made it to where no Egyptian could enter Alexandria.
You can read about it in Egypt After the Pharaohs by Alan K Bowman and Egypt Under Roman Rule.
Greek intermarriage with local Egyptian women was common during the Greek occupation in Egypt.
Posted by Morpheus 27 (Member # 10819) on :
hmm. I notice this in other things to, but I do agree that
quote:People have a choice of being objective, progressive and open-minded.
By the way has anyone Perused The Isis Papers by Dr. Frances Cress Welsing?
any opinions on her book?
Posted by Tee85 (Member # 10823) on :
^ Weird as hell
Posted by Morpheus 27 (Member # 10819) on :
^ Yeah, some of that stuff in the book is, especially the first time you look at it.
I do like some stuff in the preface, CHAP.1 The Cress Theory of C.C., and also some of the points made in CH.24 Black Women Moving Towards the 21st Century.
I didn't read through all of it though, and yeah it is pretty weird.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^Yeah, about as weird as Magyars being Kushites! LMFO Posted by Calypso (Member # 8587) on :
quote: Ausar wrote: Calypso, actually it was not Alexander or the Ptolemies that barred Egyptians from going into Alexandria but actually the Romans. The Romans made it to where no Egyptian could enter Alexandria.
You can read about it in Egypt After the Pharaohs by Alan K Bowman and Egypt Under Roman Rule.
Greek intermarriage with local Egyptian women was common during the Greek occupation in Egypt.
Thanks for the info regarding Alexandria during Roman rule Ausar.
Was this policy, of excluding indigenes, extended to cities in other parts of the Roman empire, or was this policy unique to Alexandria?
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
I don't know if it's bout "Africa in European Mythmaking" I see more history of Christanity- A king who rise from the dead and defeats the death and evil from East (Mordor) a king who is tempted--but pass and much more.
Actually you will find devoted readers of Tolkien among Christians
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
Calypso,I am not that familiar other provinces under the Roman empire but they probablly had a similar policy. Roman citizenship,to my knowledge, was only awarded to Roman born citizens.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Arwa: I see more history of Christanity- A king who rise from the dead and defeats the death and evil from East (Mordor)
The point about the return of the King - Aragon - is that he represents the purity of bloodline that has become deginerate over time.
It has nothing to do with Christianity, it has to do with racial purity.
Thus the resolution is to *mate* Aragon with the Elf [Arwin] [Elves in Tolkiens story are even purer and 'whiter' than 'men'] and so produce pure children. This is completely unlike the Jesus myth. Jesus must die to redeem human sins, and thus eschew earthly existence as a man. In contrast Aragon must take a wife, breed and restore racial purity defiled by denizens of Mordor [btw - mordor means: the Black Lands]. It is the same root as "moors".
Aryans vs. Moors. It's not even veiled.
Frankly the Aragon myth has less to do with Jesus, than with the NAZi's.
Lord of the Rings was written between the late 1930's and 1940's.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Are you sure about that?
Septimius Severus, a North African probably of partial Poeni and mostly Amazigh ancestry, was a Roman emperor. So were other non-Italians.
quote:Originally posted by ausar: Calypso,I am not that familiar other provinces under the Roman empire but they probablly had a similar policy. Roman citizenship,to my knowledge, was only awarded to Roman born citizens.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Arwa: I see more history of Christanity- A king who rise from the dead and defeats the death and evil from East (Mordor)
Modor is stated by Tolkien to be East and South [Arabia and Africa] - ie the Moors. The Kingdom of Aragon is the West.
It's and interesting point of irony to note that in the Christian story, Christ is from the South and East, the evil in Christianity is represented by the Roman empire, ie - the West.
LOTR could never work as a Christ Story. Aragon is much more Ceaser than Jesus.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
Rasol,
Tolkien draws inspirations from Anglo-Saxon, Icelandic saga, Nordic saga (Norse mythology) , Celtic saga, and Christanity---all mixed in one put.
All characters in LOTR you will find to possess some of these qualities. Just make a google "Tolkien Christanity"--more than 1.5 mio hits will appear.
Another author is C. S. Lewis--Narnia books-- and what these authors have in commen is Christanity.
I know some fanatic Christians (most of them hold university degree) and they claim Christanity plays a role in LOTR. I don't mean from A->Z, but you do have at the end Kindom on Earth, return of the King--who defeat the death by going to underworld.You have Denethor who refuses the King I like to continue this topic, see you soon
Insha'Allah
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Arwa: Tolkien draws inspirations from Anglo-Saxon, Icelandic saga, Nordic saga (Norse mythology) , Celtic saga, and Christanity---all mixed in one put.
I agree. But the narrative of LOTR is not the Christ narrative. Similarities are superficial, differences are fundamental, as noted in the prior post.
Posted by Willing Thinker (Member # 10819) on :
more great points by rasol
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
I wish that were true. Unfortunately the relationships are subliminal and devastating.
How many images of Africa have been shaped by Tarzan?
How many Black American Baptist churches worship the blonde, blue eyed image of Jesus?
How many so called Africanist continue the racial discourse rooted in the assumptive purity of the white race of Europe, and the assumed miscgenation of Africans and East Asians visa the European 'standard'?
This fantasy/ideology is reflected in the Sudan genocide....the Rwanda genocide, and the more self defeating discourses of so called Afro-centrism.
Hamites are as much a of myth has Hobbits.
The Middle East is as much of a false construct as Middle Earth.
quote:The point about the return of the King - Aragon - is that he represents the purity of bloodline that has become deginerate over time.
It has nothing to do with Christianity, it has to do with racial purity.
Thus the resolution is to *mate* Aragon with the Elf [Arwin] [Elves in Tolkiens story are even purer and 'whiter' than 'men'] and so produce pure children. This is completely unlike the Jesus myth. Jesus must die to redeem human sins, and thus eschew earthly existence as a man. In contrast Aragon must take a wife, breed and restore racial purity defiled by denizens of Mordor [btw - mordor means: the Black Lands]. It is the same root as "moors".
Aryans vs. Moors. It's not even veiled.
Frankly the Aragon myth has less to do with Jesus, than with the NAZi's.
Lord of the Rings was written between the late 1930's and 1940's.
...
Modor is stated by Tolkien to be East and South [Arabia and Africa] - ie the Moors. The Kingdom of Aragon is the West.
It's and interesting point of irony to note that in the Christian story, Christ is from the South and East, the evil in Christianity is represented by the Roman empire, ie - the West.
LOTR could never work as a Christ Story. Aragon is much more Ceaser than Jesus.
God speed
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I don't see how this is inherently Christian. From the Greek mythos I can recall Orpheus and Persephone entering the underworld and returning. And though any names escape me, in Norse mythology some god or hero slips past the hellhound to enter the realm of the dead and return.
I don't know if Ausir was in an underworld and true Ausit never went there to get him though she did resurrect him at least long enough to sire Heru the younger.
Unfamiliarity with other peoples spirituality and mythology prevents me from giving even more pre Christian universal examples of the "defeat of death by returning from the underworld" but I'm sure they exist.
Peoples with seasons effecting perennials would have a natural aptitude for resurrection beliefs.
quote:Originally posted by Arwa: ... Christanity plays a role in LOTR. I don't mean from A->Z, but you do have ... return of the King--who defeat the death by going to underworld.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^I must say that Arwa is correct about certain Christian themes in the trilogy. Of course Tolkien used mainly pagan myth especially that of Germanic myth in the story, he did throw in some Christian elements.
Also, are you aware that the Christian author and famous writer of the Chronicles of Narnia, C.S. Lewis was also a good friend of Tolkien and they exchanged alot of ideas?
But Rasol is still correct about associating demonizing the 'East' and 'South'. What I should point out though is the irony or paradox began after the 'West' adopted Christianity that they began associating Christ with themselves and demonizing peoples of the Near-East. Hence Jesus was no longer a Semite but was given 'Aryan' status while Jews and other Semites including Arabs are denigrated!
But speaking of LOTR mythos, did you know that Tolkien based the Elvish language off of ancient Finnish which is almost extinct and is now spoken by old Finnish shamans?
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
...
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
Rasol,
The role of Elf women has is that they live in forest, they are seductive - their predator are often young men, and they use their beauty to seduce, and since it's a Norse mythology, the Elfs are white. We can not change it's Norse mythology, which exist more than 1200 years--and it's true the Nazi used the mythology.
I think it's unfair to blame Tolkien for the rol of Aragon and Arwin is to produce pure [white] children. You will find many examples in Norse mythology where Elf women become in love with men and often it ends tragic.
Now to Christianity role.
I don't say it's an Epic of the gospel, but both Aragon and Frodo have elements of the Christ.
Here is what I found:
quote: Often they are little more than verbal echoes, and that, of course, begs a question, namely which of the many versions of the (English) Bible we are talking about. The tonality of the King James Version is there, as in so much English literature—the verse cited on 348 is clearly a Psalm, for example—but fairly frequently the parallels adduced tell us at best that Tolkien (of course) knew the Bible. As one example, Gimli’s agreement to go with Legolas is linked with Ruth 1:16 as ‘one of the clearest scriptural nearquotations’ (161). The few words are indeed similar (in the KJV at least) but one really has to ask what the point of the parallel is, if any. So too, Theoden’s blessing on Merry is indeed (259) ‘redolent of half-a-dozen Old Testament scenes’, but also of as many literary ones. To be fair, sometimes Tolkien almost plays with the interpreter. Rutledge points up the fact that the fellowship sets off on December 25, and that date in print has a resonance in the Christian (though not biblical) world. But it is not actually in the text, only in one of the many appendixes, in a typically complex section on calendars, from which we glean furthermore that the date is ‘according to Shire Reckoning,’ which is not (quite) the same as ours. Incidentally, the ring is destroyed (Shire Reckoning and appendix again) on March 25, Lady Day, which rather puts the cycle of Annunciation and Incarnation backwards.
Equally the theological point can be a substantial one, but it is apparent too that Tolkien is being set against a Protestant reading of the Bible (which might have surprised him). Much is made of the concept of freedom in the actions of the protagonists, but the dominant thought behind this is Luther’s Von der Freiheit eines Christenmenschen, the notion of freedom to accept, coupled with a dependence on the workings of grace: sola fides and sola gratia are the keys to the approach, if not perhaps sola scriptura. Luther’s tract of 1520 was designed, of course, to counter the notion of grace through works, and Rutledge perceives the same kind of subtlety in The Lord of the Rings. The working of providence, rather than random fate, is a further key theme, and the notion of the puppets (interestingly raised on 266) might have been explored further. One wonders if Rutledge might one day engage with Philip Pullman’s almost as popular but very different trilogy, His Dark Materials.
Well-handled throughout is the theme of perseverance (hypomone), found in biblical contexts, it is true; but already we can point to plenty of other potential sources, in the Germanic heroic epic, for example, and in modern contexts too. Her reference to Frodo and Sam as ‘quite small people against impossible odds’ (271) could be linked with the famously defiant 1940 cartoon by David Low (which Tolkien certainly knew, in spite of his distancing of the work from the war), in which one British soldier confronts the stormy sea of the Axis with the words: ‘very well, alone!’ A whole range of books might provide parallels and influences, from the Elder Edda (more so perhaps than Beowulf, which is discussed; rings as gold, and thus as weaponbuying currency, mean power in many medieval epics) to Jung’s Archetypes. Rutledge draws many parallels of her own, usually providing chapter and verse for everything, including commonplace Shakespeare quotations. In fact, she is a little patronising on that point. ‘Tolkien was no Shakespearean’, we are told more than once (as on 331), although for someone of his age, education and profession, and with his circle of friends, that statement has to be relative at best. Not only would he certainly have been able to identify the ‘wheel of fire’ quotation, but he would hardly have been unaware of it as a title for one of the best-known books of Shakespeare criticism (by Wilson Knight, Oxford, 1930).
Tolkien’s own prefatory comments that his work is not to be taken as allegory are much cited, and a one-to-one allegorical exclusivity would indeed be wrong; but his letter to Auden in June 1955 does make clear that everything can be read allegorically, whatever (if anything) the writer may have had in mind. Patrick Curry’s similarly titled Defending Middle Earth (Edinburgh: Floris, 1997) runs briefly through a whole range of possibilities, and of course there are plenty of Christian (indeed Catholic) interpretations of the work available, sometimes even using Tolkien, though not the whole text, as the basis for a sermon (see Tolkien, A Celebration, Joseph Pearce (ed.), London: HarperCollins, 1999, esp. 53–66).
Source:Review: The Battle for Middle-Earth: Tolkien's Divine Design in The Lord of the Rings
Literature and Theology 2005 19: 192-195
Djehuti,
About C.S. Lewis, Tolkien was more a literaturist than a Christian writer--and we see that his love for Hobbist and the Elf language.
Al-Takruri,
My knowlege in Greek is not so good as Nordic saga, which I had in school more often than Homer. Actually, I have an Icelandic saga, which resembles so incredible to one Somali folk song my mother used to tell me as a kid.
I like the Icelandic saga, because it is more alive and more action, and you feel part of story.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
But the Norse have a SvartAlfHeim as well. Well Ok I suppose they technically differ, the one being fairies and the other dwarves.
I like Wendy Pini's elves who come in black and white with a pseudo historical basis in that the black ones are more culturally advanced and a black female elf introduces improved techniques to her white husband's people (similar to Quest for Fire).
quote:Originally posted by Arwa: ... since it's a Norse mythology, the Elfs are white. We can not change it's Norse mythology, which exist more than 1200 years ...
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
AlTakruri, Of cource, the dark elfs, but my point was the Elf women in the forest who seduce the young men>> which are common saga.
PS, why do you need to be cryptic in your writings? An AlTakruri style?
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I like Wendy Pini's elves who come in black and white with a pseudo historical basis in that the black ones are more culturally advanced and a black female elf introduces improved techniques to her white husband's people (similar to Quest for Fire).
Never heard, do you have a link for the story?
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
See you tomorrow,
Peace be upon you all!
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I've loved the Norse mythos ever since I first got a library card as a child. The Volsunga Saga is among my favorites (even Wagner's take).
But the goddess who married Njord, as illustrated in a childrens' book, really captivated me and I was taken aback when I met Lithuanian women with an Asian facial bone structure but elsewise completely European in external facial features and hair so reminescent of Skade in D’Aulaire's book.
quote:Originally posted by Arwa:
Al-Takruri,
My knowlege in Greek is not so good as Nordic saga, which I had in school more often than Homer. Actually, I have an Icelandic saga, which resembles so incredible to one Somali folk song my mother used to tell me as a kid.
I like the Icelandic saga, because it is more alive and more action, and you feel part of story.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^My situation is the opposite of Arwa's-- I am much more familiar with Greek myth than I was with Norse myth. Since elementary school it was Homer's epics that we were taught and versed in. I've only read an epic or two and various short stories concerning Nore myth.
I know that the plot of the LOTR was taken from the epic, The Ring of the Nibelung AKA The Ring Cycle, and I've only read a little of the Volsunga Saga.
I am pretty knowledgeable about the various mythical races except for the Dark Elves. Can someone tell me more about them? The only thing I know is that they are of much darker complexion than Light Elves, and from what I've seen from the various animated shows that depict them (mainly anime LOL) they tend to be more evil. I've heard one friend say that the myth of the Dark Elves may have even been inspired by North Africans. How true is all of this??
Also Takruri, what do you mean by an "Asian facial bone structure"? Last time I remembered, many cranial remains of Eastern Europeans had short round skulls with wide faces in contrast to some later longer shaped skulls with longer faces. There are also Asians like Tibetans with long faces etc.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Arwa: Rasol,
The role of Elf women has is that they live in forest, they are seductive - their predator are often young men,
Not in the Lord the Rings. How Elvs are portrayed in *other stories* is completely irrelevant.
It's as if you think you're defending "Elves" or Nordic mythology and not Lord of the Rings?
quote:I think it's unfair to blame Tolkien for the rol of Aragon and Arwin is to produce pure [white] children.
Nonsense. It's completely fair. This is the story he tells - you are respounding as if Elves are real and being accused of racism. lol. You provide examples from other stories as if producing 'character witnesses' for Elves-on-Trial. Ridiculous.
Specifically address Lord of the Rings
quote:You will find many examples in Norse mythology where Elf women become in love with men and often it ends tragic.
But again that's not what happens in Lord of the Rings, so it is a completely invalid 'defense' of Tolkiens work.
It's like defending Hitler's Mein Keimf by referencing Sigmund Freud based on the fact that they are both German - and by the way, you can find Christian references in Mein Keimf too, and their are Christian 'interpretations' as well, but Mein Keimf is not a retelling of the story of Jesus Christ and neither is Lord of the Rings.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: My situation is the opposite of Arwa's-- I am much more familiar with Greek myth than I am with Norse myth. Since elementary school it was Homer's epics that we were taught and versed in. I've only read an epic or two and various short stories concerning Nore myth.
I know that the plot of the LOTR was taken from the epic, The Ring of the Nibelung AKA The Ring Cycle, and I've only read a little of the Volsunga Saga.
I am pretty knowledgeable about the various mythical races except for the Dark Elves. Can someone tell me more about them? The only thing I know is that they are of much darker complexion than Light Elves, and from what I've seen from the various animated shows that depict them (mainly anime LOL) they tend to be more evil. I've heard one friend say that the myth of the Dark Elves may have even been inspired by North Africans. How true is all of this??
Also Takruri, what do you mean by an "Asian facial bone structure"? Last time I remembered, many cranial remains of Eastern Europeans had short round skulls with wide faces in contrast to some later longer shaped skulls with longer faces. There are also Asians like Tibetans with long faces etc.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Precisely why I said an instead of the.
The Norse mythos recognize non-"Nordics" inhabited Scandinavia before "Aesir" types. These were "Vanir" types and perhaps "Jotun" types.
Considering Skade was such an even further north living and extensively snow mobile entity, she may well be somewhat Sami-like for me. And I guess maybe that is the bone type I imagine.
But to be as descriptive as possible * wideness when viewed from the front * nearly straight plane forehead to chin from profile * short distance from front of face to jaw/ear line * cheek prominent or sort of projecting at 3/4 & full profile
This is what I saw in a few Lithuanian ladies and what I seem to recall from the illo of Skade in the children's book.
Perhaps I'm altogether wrong but I'm talking mythology here more than anthropology and anecdotal rather than scientific, so please excuse me.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: al~Takruri, what do you mean by an "Asian facial bone structure"? Last time I remembered, many cranial remains of Eastern Europeans had short round skulls with wide faces in contrast to some later longer shaped skulls with longer faces. There are also Asians like Tibetans with long faces etc.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol: It's like defending Hitler's Mein Keimf by referencing Sigmund Freud based on the fact that they are both German - and by the way, you can find Christian references in Mein Keimf too, and their are Christian 'interpretations' as well.
quote: but MF is not a retelling of the story of Jesus Christ and neither is Lord of the Rings.
I have provided enough evidances to support the major--no the crucial role that Christianity plays in LOTR. You don't need to be a an expert on Christianity too see that.
Besides, what is Christianity without Christ?
quote:How Elvs are portrayed in *other stories* is completely irrelevant.
Then what you have is not Elfs-. You are trying to change a whole genre here, which has existed over a milennium, because Rasol is not pleased. He wants to see Denzel Washington as Aragon, no?
quote: It's as if you think you're defending "Elves" or Nordic mythology and not Lord of the Rings?
I see a white Christian English writer in his own universe--which many of his country men shared his view. I don't think he was trying the recreate Nordic mythology--it was there in front of him.
quote: You provide examples from other stories as if producing 'character witnesses' for Elves-on-Trial.
I can provide examples until it blinds you--the question is can you read Danish? And if you can read other Nordic languages--you will not have problems to understand Danish.
And Rasol, IT IS A FANTASY!
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Arwa: Cheap shoot!
No, it's a fair point, since you have not addressed any of the specifics sighted regarding Lord of the Rings, and attempt to evade by referencing other works by other authors instead, which is a total *cop out*.
quote:Try this one.
I don't know why you reference the right wing propaganda magazine national review, as proof against the reactionary ideology inherent in LOTR.
Would you like me to reference the Aryan Nations review of LOTR?
quote:I have provided enough evidances to support the major--no he crucial role that Christianity plays in LOTR.
You've provided nothing specific to LOTR. Your references are extremely superficial and are irrelevant to the racism inherent in LOTR, which you do not address but merely attempt to *distract* attention from via chistianity.
quote:rasol: How Elvs are portrayed in *other stories* is completely irrelevant.
quote:Then what you have is not Elfs
This comment makes no sense. The characters in LOTR are Elves because that is what they are called - in the story.
You do realise that Elves are not real.
You continue to respound as if Elves are real and you are defending real creatures.
The subject is LOTR. It doesn't matter if you consider the LOTR Elves representative of other Elves in other stores -- We are discussing a specific narrative.
quote:You are trying to change a whole genre here
Another silly remark. For the last time - the issue is specifically LOTR. Anytime you respound by substituting discussion of a specific narrative with superflous comments about a 'genre', you are off topic.
quote:He wants to see Denzel Washington as Aragon, no?
Why? That change would be as superficial as the rest of your comments have been. It would not change the narrative. You need to study the methods of narrative analysis in literary criticism. You might then be able to make something resembling and effective argument.
quote:I see a white Christian English writer in his own universe--which many of his country men shared his view. I don't think he was trying the recreate Nordic mythology--it was there in front of him.
If this were true, then Tolkien contributed nothing, but merely slavishly copied what already existed. That's a pretty lame defense of the work of any artist. Indeed you offer Tolkien the ultimate insult - you refuse to address his work [because it's the only way you can hide from the racism inherent in it].
quote:I can provide examples until it blinds you
So far you merely manage to bore. Your examples are worthless distractions and intellectually feeble. Try addressing the subject of LOTR, rather than Dungeons and Dragons generics and you might be able to sustain and argument.
quote:And Rasol, IT IS A FANTASY!
Agreed.
Odd then, that you should be so emotive over it.
Your discourse treats Elves as if they are real, while denying the existence the racism.
But while Elves are not real, racism is.
You've got it backwards.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Would you like me to reference the Aryan Nations review of LOTR?
Finally admiting where you get your sources, and I was trying to get academic sources
quote: Your examples are worthless distractions and intellectually feeble.
You asked references on White Elfes.
Let me ask you a question. Have you ever read any Norse saga?
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Arwa: Finally admiting where you get your sources
Actually the comment was sarcastic, but went over your head, apparently.
quote:You asked references on White Elfes.
No, I didn't. I asked you to address the racism in Lord of the Rings, and you haven't.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Rasol and Arwa, aren't you guys making a little too much out of this?
Both of you are right to a certain extent. Arwa, you are correct that Tolkien's books are all based on ancient European myth and lore, but the key word is based since he pretty much used these elements to weave a mythos of his own.
And Rasol is correct that his mythos, like all mythos, can be and usually is influenced by the political ideas of his time. As you said Arwa, the guy shared many if not all the ideas of his countrymen at that time, surely it would be fool-hardy to deny the racism. I understand you are living in Europe right now and have a fond understanding of Nordic myth, but do not be mistaken in thinking no racialist ideas of that time period were taken in. For you as a black African who lives "south" and "east" (and even as a Muslim) can be viewed as one of the "human agents" of Sauron that Westerners of that time feared!
And can anyone answer my questions about the Dark Elves?
Posted by Willing Thinker (Member # 10819) on :
It's ok Arwa, rasol is not saying that elve's are racist, nor is he attacking the genre.
quote:Djehuti: And can anyone answer my questions about the Dark Elves?
No.. but the evil elves of The Legend of Zelda Wind Waker are dark, if my memory serves me...
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Rasol and Arwa, aren't you guys making a little too much out of this?
Only in that I took the time to respound to Arwa's non-sequitur defense of Lord of the Rings.
Non-sequitur means 'not follow', as in it does not logically follow that if LOTR is rooted in Nordic myth that it is not racist.
NAZISM is also rooted in Nordic myth, which does not excuse its racism in any way.
Non-sequitur arguments are a form of distraction in which you substitute off-point generalities in hopes of denying specifics by changing the subject.
But I play along because the process of apologia, guilt response and rationalisation in the service of subliminal propaganda interest me.
For example:
In the term Nordic myth, what element is supposed to contra the possiblity of racism in any specific example?
Does the argument presuppose that there is no Nordic racism?
Or does it presuppose that there are no racist myths?
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Arwa, I understand you are living in Europe right now and have a fond understanding of Nordic myth, but do not be mistaken in thinking no racialist ideas of that time period were taken in.
This seven minute film, A Girl Like Me, was made by Kiri Davis, who is 17. It's about how European features - especially light skin and straight hair - are still perceived as more attractive than African features and the effect on black girls. The movie contains an extraordinary sequence in which African-American children are asked to choose between black and white dolls. Watch it and weep. Posted by MULLAH'S_REVENGE (Member # 11724) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: But the Norse have a SvartAlfHeim as well. Well Ok I suppose they technically differ, the one being fairies and the other dwarves.
I like Wendy Pini's elves who come in black and white with a pseudo historical basis in that the black ones are more culturally advanced and a black female elf introduces improved techniques to her white husband's people (similar to Quest for Fire).
i read those comics as a kid Posted by Willing Thinker (Member # 10819) on :
I see this as extremely sad , epecially since, although I like all women, I happen to prefer darkskinned girls. This is no surprise to most African Americans, since 'good hair' and 'nice skin' are used to note straight hair and light skin.
At the end they make a nice point for the need of African history and not just 'black' history, hisstory since we've become blacks.
Back to women, as time goes on this europea standard of beauty for women will probably die out. Most times when a brothah says he only likes white or latino girls, it's because he thinks guys agree with him. When I or someone else at another time say that black girls are more attractive, they agree instantly, these guys are not serious.
Then there's the case of those who are. They like black and white girls, or balck girls better, but light-skinned girls. So there is still a real perception problem, like this young boy who my aunt said "would only date white women", so much so, even after the one dumped him and these guys wanted him dead, I think because he was black, and he still only preferrs white girls. He did have mental disorders, though I'm not sure if they were resulted from this experience. He's probably a man now.
At my mixed, but predominately white school, white guys have no problem with black girls. Some like them better (probably resulting from an overproportionate number of attractive black females attending [no survey of scientific methods, just experience so maybe not reliable]).
There's also the time about a month back, when an AA student said, "I might date a white girl, but I'd never do it with a white girl" *in an obvious joking tone (though it wasn't clear if he wasn't joking)* -
This white american took it seriously, it devastated her, "That's wrong, it's still a human," she argued (against nobody - he continued joking) for the whole study hall and I think still doesn't talk to him.
I notice when females see you looking or talking about other females, especially of another race regardless of if it was white to black or vice-versa, at times they get discouraged, uncomfortable, or gealous.
After THAT incident, that made me wonder how BLACK girls must feel. Posted by Willing Thinker (Member # 10819) on :
But ofcourse, stating the obvious, Guys really wouldn't care if a girl had green skin.
Booty? Shapely hips? Thick thighs? Big boobs? Thick lips? I know we don't even need to talk about those issues, I know these white guys who openly admit how they love those assets.
The problem lies in the stereotyping of blacks (anyone realy) in general, but especially females. Black is evil in movies, black people are loud in real life.
This girl in my school likes to parody 'triflent' or ghetto black situations, to sort of laugh it off. But, in seriousness, she acts loud and ignorant. It seems like she would like to learn positive things about her race, but she blocks those things out, but feeds off of drama.
^^This reminds me of the little girl on your tape, rasol, who acknowledges herself akin to the black doll, BUT ATTRIBUTES POSITIVES TO THE WHITE DOLL AND NEGATIVES TO THE BLACK DOLL.
BTW, speaking of racist themes, has anyone seen Eragon. I doubt this recent film is racist. Is this an ok movie?
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
Rasol,
What was that? Turning the topic into some spoiled impudent girls who consider their biggest problems in their life being how to use curling irons? How do you think they will handle in the real life?
And can you enlighten me what it has to do with LOTR? Really, you have turned this topic into trash, and at the same time brought shame into your people.
All this because your thesis was challenged and failed?
Shame on you and those parents.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
quote:Originally posted by Willing Thinker:
BTW, speaking of racist themes, has anyone seen Eragon. I doubt this recent film is racist. Is this an ok movie?
Grow up!
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: As you said Arwa, the guy shared many if not all the ideas of his countrymen at that time, surely it would be fool-hardy to deny the racism. I understand you are living in Europe right now and have a fond understanding of Nordic myth, but do not be mistaken in thinking no racialist ideas of that time period were taken in. For you as a black African who lives "south" and "east" (and even as a Muslim) can be viewed as one of the "human agents" of Sauron that Westerners of that time feared!
Hi Djehuti,
very short replay (long replay later),
Muslims in early days researched into Greek works and still maintained their religion and heritage. Reading Norse saga does not bring danger to my identity.
Don't set limitation in your life. Look how the Europeans explored in every soil they set their foot on, and we are still depending on their efforts.
A quote:
quote: “Seek knowledge, even as far as China”
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Rasol, I understand that you are trying to prove the racist undertones in LOTR, but exactly what has that video you posted have to do with it? Unless you are saying the movie with its fair Elven females attribute to the problem of the black female image(?)
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Arwa: Hi Djehuti,
very short replay (long replay later),
Muslims in early days researched into Greek works and still maintained their religion and heritage. Reading Norse saga does not bring danger to my identity.
LOL I never said just because you read Norse myth that your identity of heritage was in danger! I merely said that you cannot deny whatever political ideas Tolkien may have put into his writings!
quote:Don't set limitation in your life. Look how the Europeans explored in every soil they set their foot on, and we are still depending on their efforts.
And exactly what "limitations" have I put in my life?? I never bashed Europeans if that is what you are thinking. I even told you I like learning about European history and culture also and have also read Norse myth, although I am more familiar with Greek myth.
Exactly what do your comments above have anything to do with the topic at hand?
Also, are you saying Europeans are the only ones putting forth any significant "efforts" or achievements that everyone depends on??
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Rasol, I understand that you are trying to prove the racist undertones in LOTR, but exactly what has that video you posted have to do with it? Unless you are saying the movie with its fair Elven females attribute to the problem of the black female image(?)
A more subtle point is illustrated.
Like adults, Children learn the values that cultural dialectics transmit to them.
However adults can always lie and or consciously deny what they unconsciously believe or think.
Children are more honest, and thru them we can more honestly address topics such as racism in mass culture.
Disagree?
Well the video in the link reproduces the evidence that was presented in America's famous Brown vs. Board of Education trial - which brought and end to legal segregation.
For me, it's easy to see that modern African adults are influenced by the racism in Western mass media - because I 'hear it' in their thinking [including on ES] everyday.
I began this thread expecting to flush out African defenders of the Western racist values they have absorbed and so come to think of as perfectly natural. Unlike children, they rationalise and deny in order to bury their guilt feelings over what they know to be true.
The more, and more impassioned their protests, the more clearly they illustrate the above, and the more the thoughts they bury deep down inside are forced to the surface.
Why else would a grown African man defend via denial, a triflingly Eurocentric fairy-tale predicated on the European longing for and apocalyptic race war to avenge the pure whites of the 'west' against the miscegenated 'black skinned' sub-humans of the 'black-lands' of the east and south?
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ In the "doll test," psychologists Kenneth and Mamie Clark used four plastic, diaper-clad dolls, identical except for color. They showed the dolls to black children between the ages of three and seven and asked them questions to determine racial perception and preference. Almost all of the children readily identified the race of the dolls. However, when asked which they preferred, the majority selected the white doll and attributed positive characteristics to it. The Clarks also gave the children outline drawings of a boy and girl and asked them to color the figures the same color as themselves. Many of the children with dark complexions colored the figures with a white or yellow crayon. The Clarks concluded that "prejudice, discrimination, and segregation" caused black children to develop a sense of inferiority and self-hatred. Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Arwa: Rasol,
What was that? Turning the topic into some spoiled impudent girls who consider their biggest problems in their life being how to use curling irons? How do you think they will handle in the real life?
And can you enlighten me what it has to do with LOTR?
^ I would, but you progressively reveal yourself to be and idiot, so why bother?
Best to communicate with intelligent discussants, and allow you to continue your exhibitionist ignorance which requires no response.
Posted by Willing Thinker (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by Arwa:
quote:Originally posted by Willing Thinker:
BTW, speaking of racist themes, has anyone seen Eragon. I doubt this recent film is racist. Is this an ok movie?
Grow up!
Whoops, I was typing what I was thinking - I doubt Eragon is racist. I was on the hunt.
What I meant was, On Topic (moreso), how is the Movie Eragon?
Posted by Willing Thinker (Member # 10819) on :
Anyway that boy at Belmont Pines (care center for troubled juveniles) My aunt was telling me about was porbably a result of bad self-image (of his afro-american heritage). Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^Indeed I cannot help to think how some African Americans feel since, as one of the girls said in the video, the dominant images African Americans recieve come from the dominant people (whites). After centuries of psychological bombardment by such images, what do you expect?
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
Rasol,
Try to be more melodramatic. Be like Clyde, and learn his sense of humour with tongue in cheek approach. At least his replys are not evil.
I chuckled so hard that I almost couldn't breath. Brown vs. Board of Education? What next? Where will you take us?
I took part on this thread without further interest after a slow decline into irrelevancy. I just pointed out the role of Christianity plays, which normally associate when ever you mention the name Tolkien. First you denied, then accepted it.
Now the disagreement is Elfe women. You claim Tolkien invented the Elfe women and men relationship which symbolized to produce pure white children. I have pointed out that it's not something new the elfe women and men relationship. It was taken from Norse mythology.
I don't know what Tolkien had on mind, but I'm just telling you what is writen on Norse saga, which has existed more than a millennium, along with themes like; good vs. evil, honour, family, manhood, strength.
Now if you still ophold that it's to produce Ariyan people, produce your evidence.
About the spoiled girls, it's true the outside world influence, but the ultimate decision lies on the parents.
No wonder there are more Africans who hold PhDs than African Americans.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:You claim Tolkien invented the Elfe women
What is denoted is what Elves represent in LOTR.
Nowhere is it claimed that Tolkien 'invented' Elfe women.
Why should we keep explaing this to you, when you're clearly too dense to understand it?
quote:Originally posted by Arwa: Brown vs. Board of Education? What next? Where will you take us?
We'd like to take you someplace where you're not quite so stupid.
But we haven't found such a place yet.
When we do, we'll let you know. Posted by Willing Thinker (Member # 10819) on :
^^Agreed.
quote:Now the disagreement is Elfe women. You claim Tolkien invented the Elfe women and men relationship which symbolized to produce pure white children. I have pointed out that it's not something new the elfe women and men relationship. It was taken from Norse mythology.
Rasol is shedding light over the affairs' implications,
not attacking european mythology.
quote:No wonder there are more Africans who hold PhDs than African Americans.
I am now starting to wonder about your mentality, was this necissarry? Was it a bash against rasol, 'cause if so he's african. Jus so ya know.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Rasol is shedding light over the affairs' implications, not attacking european mythology.
This has been clearly explained several times.
It is simply ignored by Arwa so he can evade addressing the racism specifically found in LOTR.
In order to 'enjoy' LOTR in spite of its manifest anti African racism, he need pretend the racist ideology isn't there.
But he absorbs it, and reflects it in his thinking nonetheless. [it comes out in his hate remarks against Black girls, African Americans, etc..]
Of course, being made aware of all of this merely makes him more angry, and thus his comments become ever more hateful.
Observe as Arwas troll-pattern continues and grows worse until he finally realises that the only affect of his bitter denials is to prove the very point he is determined run and hide from.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
Here is and interesting defense of LOTR which acknowledges how the film resonates deeply with the ethnocentric fears and fantasies of whites....
There is a demographic catastrophe happening in Europe that nobody wants to talk about, that we dare not bring up because we are so cagey about not offending people racially.
I think that Tolkien says that some generations will be challenged. And if they do not rise to meet that challenge, they will lose their civilization. That does have a real resonance with me.”
It has a resonance with the vast, landslide majority of White people all over the world. That’s why they love Peter Jackson’s films, and that’s one of the reasons we are going to win.
Blacks can equally enjoy the same story of course - but in order to do so *must consciously deny* what they are actually being subjected to.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
The gate keeper in ES has spoken, after 82 posts of walk of shame.
But don't expect explanations why he did not take consideration before.
I guess he swallows everything that is writen about White Man.
The power of Google. Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
From Lord of the Rings:
For all that you hold dear, stand and fight, Men of the West! ";
- Aragorn, at the Black Gate of Mordor.
A faint and fading hope that one day it will flower. That a king will come and this city will be as it once was before it fell into decay.
The old wisdom born out of the west was forsaken.
The line of Kings failed.
The white tree withered.
The rule of Gondor was given over to lesser men.
-Gandolf, the white wizard
This stuff isn't subtle.
It is either consciously understood, or, if the audience is conflicted over it, it is unconsciously understood and self-consciously denied.
Hence the increasingly frustrated, ineffectual and oddly irrelevant responses from Arwa.....
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
Try JSTOR.
Posted by Willing Thinker (Member # 10819) on :
^^Right on cue Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
^Gate Keeper,
The Danish Nobel Prize winner in literature, Johannes V. Jensen, wrote a poem called, At Memphis Station,and travelled across the South stats in the US, but that did not change that he was a strong believer in eugenics and Darwin theories.
LOTR is misused both the lefts and rights.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Willing Thinker: ^^Right on cue
lol.
quote:There is a demographic catastrophe happening in Europe that nobody wants to talk about, that we dare not bring up because we are so cagey about not offending people racially.
^ btw: this comment is from the actor John Davies. who plays a dwarf in the film.
Davies continues:
I think that Tolkien says that some generations will be challenged. And if they do not rise to meet that challenge, they will lose their civilization. That does have a real resonance with me.” Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Originally posted by Willing Thinker: ^^Right on cue
lol.
quote:There is a demographic catastrophe happening in Europe that nobody wants to talk about, that we dare not bring up because we are so cagey about not offending people racially.
^ btw: this comment is from the actor John Davis. who plays a dwarf in the film.
Admit, you never heard C.S. Lewis before or any issues I pointed out.
Keep that telling to your "pets".
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Stop stalking me.
The response was to Willing Thinker, not you and last I checked I was the author of the thread topic to begin with.
No one forces you to type inane 'replies' to it.
Must be some sort of compulsive guilt response driving you to play the fool.
Not our fault you can't help yourself. Posted by Willing Thinker (Member # 10819) on :
Whoa^ @ the comment being from an actor in the film. Don't worry about Arwa some people just hate to be wrong (or look stupid or both).
Don't worry Arwa, your coolness points aren't in the gutters after this, your still cool (misguided though) from "How to write about Africa" - I was the first to compliment.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
So you admit openly your role as Gate Keeper.
quote: For me, it's easy to see that modern African adults are influenced by the racism in Western mass media - because I 'hear it' in their thinking [including on ES] everyday.
Anyone who disagrees with the Gate Keeper must serve to white man.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
Hi White Boox (Spl?) Posted by Willing Thinker (Member # 10819) on :
'Supp,
quote:Originally posted by Arwa: (Spl?)
Uhh, what does (Spl) mean?
Edit:Oh, did you spell my old alias right? No. (It was What Box)
Funny you would typo me that (White). And it's also to bad I don't hate white people.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Stop stalking me.
The response was to Willing Thinker, not you and last I checked I was the author of the thread topic to begin with.
No one forces you to type inane 'replies' to it.
Must be some sort of compulsive guilt response driving you to play the fool.
Not our fault you can't help yourself.
I quoted your post before you edited.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Arwa: Anyone who disagrees with the Gate Keeper must serve to white man.
^ lol, classic....
"Me thinks thou dost protest too much"
When you try to attack me personally, instead of addressing LOTR, you are not debating, but bitterly ranting.
Typical sore loser antics.
No point beating a dead horse.
Continue your futile ranting.....
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
^ Spelling,
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
You were the one who linked the pathetic video to blame Elves for AA's self-hatred image.
Posted by Willing Thinker (Member # 10819) on :
I'm back!
quote:arwa: white [sic] box
know what, next time some one calls me that, my new alias may be "Black Box", just to make things clear .
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Why should we keep explaing this to [Arwa], when [Arwa's] clearly too dense to understand it?
I honestly do not know.
quote:Arwhite [*drum roll* I do not know]: You were the one who linked the pathetic video to blame Elves for AA's self-hatred image.
Um..., no.
The to topics are connected in that they both speak of the negatives that our (african-american's) label, 'black', represent.
Are you denying that LOTR connotes what is being suggested?
- If so your argument was over a while ago,
- If not, then we have nothing more to explain to you.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
What Box,
You are so cute when you try to be mean
It was not unpurpose I misspelled your name. That it is why I used the (spl?)
Posted by Willing Thinker (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by Arwa: What Box,
You are so cute when you try to be mean
It was not unpurpose I misspelled your name. That it is why I used the (spl?)
Thank you, and appology excepted if that's true.
That's the second time that happenned though.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
Happy New Year, What Box
Believe it or not, you are one of my very few favourite contributer on this site. I like your originality and that you don't try to be someone else.
I should have commended your posts.
Posted by Willing Thinker (Member # 10819) on :
^Happy new years to you too and thank you, honestly I'm very flattered.
You're original also, stay that way.
Edit: Ah, I see, a fellow rebel on my hands. To you lady, a tip of the hat. Posted by Willing Thinker (Member # 10819) on :
quote:"hey...i need some help with my skin. i have really dark skin. i dont think i do because when i look in the mirror and i see a light person. lol but people tell me i am DARK lyke chocolate. soo is there any cream or soap or SOEMTHING any thing at all i can do to be lighter. i do some times spend time in the sun and the cream i current use has vitamin b3 and natrual milk protien so is that good or what should i use... thanks a bunch"
^^DARK SKIN!!! NEED HELP: and I like dark skin girls, SAD. Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:i have really dark skin. i dont think i do because when i look in the mirror and i see a light person
^ It's a kind of reverse "Projection."
Projection is a defense mechanism where you attribute your own thoughts or identity to someone else.
The reversal of this process requires you to assume someone else's identity, in order to vent your own self hatred. [this is what the fake Arabs of Sudan do]
In order for a Black person to fully enjoy Lord of the Rings - (s)he has to project themselves as a white European who repells the dark invaders from Africa. It's crucially important that the person is not consciously aware of what they are doing.
Projection works because of the near infinite capacity of the human mind for denial.
When the human mind is forced to confront it's own 'self hatred' the result is resentment, and the instinctive response is to rationalise.
Thus we can seek to rationalise the racism in LOTR by discussing other narratives - a red hering argument, or by trying to deflect attention onto supposed other elements of the narrative - a non sequitur argument.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
Rasol wrote:
quote: In order for a Black person to fully enjoy Lord of the Rings - (s)he has to project themselves as a white European who repells the dark invaders from Africa. It's crucially important that the person is not consciously aware of what they are doing.
To all posters on ES!
If you are going to read anything from Rasol, be sure you not having coffee or any drinks around you, because there are chances you will going to spill over.
Now excuse me, I have some cleaning to do. See you soon.
Posted by RU2religious (Member # 4547) on :
I'm sorry but I agree with Rasol ...
There were no black characters who represented us as though the world was only white in those times.
All black super heros have bad stories ... Example:
Spawn -> went to hell and recieved his powers from the devil himself.
Blankman - > is the dumbest dude on the planet.
Catwoman -> She a theif and she contends with the good and evil within.
Blade -> is a half breed blood sucking vampire.
Green-lantern -> who just don't find black women attractive but got him a white woman. With this hero black women are not good enough ...
Basically what I'm saying is that all of our super heros, represent an evil nature or we don't have any self appreciation.
Note: I'm not saying that interracial relationships is a bad thing because I will not voice may opinion on that ... personally I'm married to a black woman.
L.O.T.R. show black being as being evil ... dark-skinned people are media portraits of evil while the one who are actually evil are portrayed as good.
Peace!~
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
Have an idea for current or would-be 'black' animators or cartoonists out there:
Create likeable 'black' planet-saving characters with solid storylines, who don't come with the baggage of negative stereotypes.
Although different from LOTR, there are other movies which are overlooked in their socio-political jingoism: For instance, Rambo [Sylvester Stallone] or James Braddock [Chuck Norris] goes back to Vietnam to 'single-handedly' wipe out armed forces [usually portrayed as devoid of emotion and any semblance of intellengence], something which the U.S. army was unable to accomplish during the US-Vietnam conflict.
What is the supposed message here?...presumably that a single American commando or something along those lines [usually light-skin] can wipe out an entire army of the enemy; so, you can imagine what multiples of such a 'heroic' character can do to the potential enemy.
Same thing with "Black Hawk Down"; Somalis are literally portrayed as characters devoid of any sense of morals, emotion or intelligence. Hence, the portrayal goes along the lines: The Americans were coming down to them as the "angels" [their "saviors"], only to be responded to by the "bestiality" of the enemy.
Posted by Willing Thinker (Member # 10819) on :
^^Good post, and
quote:In order for a Black person to fully enjoy Lord of the Rings - (s)he has to project themselves as a white European who repells the dark invaders from Africa. It's crucially important that the person is not consciously aware of what they are doing.
Are you sure it shouldn't be put like this?...
"In order for a Black [who holds race as important] person to fully enjoy Lord of the Rings - (s)he has to project themselves as a white European who repells the dark invaders from Africa. It's crucially important that the person is not consciously aware of what they are doing."
Personally, I know I've experienced this, but I AM in ordinary afroamerican, and like such was exposed to a culture with a strong sense of race.
What about an egyptian who (as far as I know) have things in a more blurred mode.
quote:To all posters on ES!
If you are going to read anything from Rasol, be sure you not having coffee or any drinks around you, because there are chances you will going to spill over.
Now excuse me, I have some cleaning to do. See you soon.
Arwa,
Stop being so closed minded and dense.
Here's one for you. Say we went with Supercar's idea of creating a black hero, let's call him, Hafrican - half man, half, black african, with the powers to do anything a stereotypical black man can do.
What type of powers would he have, Arwa, or anyone really? Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I don't think these are our superheroes but ones created by them. We can't and must stop expecting others to do for us what we don't do for self.
Once there was a line of comics by blacks that made superheroes out of the Netjeru. They even had a map of all KM.t in the back (taken from Van Sertima) and a little blurb on the history.
Anyway the Netjeru were acting out a part in today's world. The art was full color and very good. The story line wasn't half bad either.
The thing with comics is they're hard to distribute and if they don't sell something nn,000 copies throughout their range of distribution then store owners shy from displaying them (profit motive.)
quote:Originally posted by RU2religious: I'm sorry but I agree with Rasol ...
There were no black characters who represented us as though the world was only white in those times.
All black super heros have bad stories ... Example:
Spawn -> went to hell and recieved his powers from the devil himself.
Blankman - > is the dumbest dude on the planet.
Catwoman -> She a theif and she contends with the good and evil within.
Blade -> is a half breed blood sucking vampire.
Green-lantern -> who just don't find black women attractive but got him a white woman. With this hero black women are not good enough ...
Basically what I'm saying is that all of our super heros, represent an evil nature or we don't have any self appreciation.
Note: I'm not saying that interracial relationships is a bad thing because I will not voice may opinion on that ... personally I'm married to a black woman.
L.O.T.R. show black being as being evil ... dark-skinned people are media portraits of evil while the one who are actually evil are portrayed as good.
Peace!~
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:"In order for a Black [who holds race as important] person to fully enjoy Lord of the Rings - (s)he has to project themselves as a white European who repells the dark invaders from Africa. It's crucially important that the person is not consciously aware of what they are doing."
Race is critically important in the narrative of Lord of the Rings.
It is actually a profoundly odd narrative in this respect and its oddness is only subliminal [not consciously perceived] if one assumes that a racialist discourse is *natural*.
In this universe - good and evil - right and wrong are defined almost wholey along typological [ie racial] lines - Elves good, Orcs bad, etc. Even the notion of transformation into good or evil is characterised as 'racial' transformation.
The differences are not, actually ideological, or ultimately even moral - the difference is inherent and racial.
This is a striking characteristic of the narrative - unless you assume it is 'natural'. In which case you don't notice.
This is why so many people *most of them European* have taken LOTR to task for its racism.
LOTR is pathologically racist, which is most easily understood if the reader/viewer, is not.
Posted by MULLAH'S_REVENGE (Member # 11724) on :
OT: Does anyone know the side-effects Manga and Anime has on Japanese kids? the characters usually have blond hair and blue round eyes etc etc and never seem to resemble Japanese people the way western cartoon characters resemble westerners case in point DBZ the main character goes from a black haired dude to a blond haired super hero (WTF?)
Is this self hate or are these cartoonists simply targeting the western market with these characters?
i wonder what kind of effect these popular cartoons have on Japanese kids and other Asian kids, but if the increase of plastic surgery and the dying of black hair to blond in Japan and Asia in general is an indicator i think i allready know.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by MULLAH'S_REVENGE:
Is this self hate or are these cartoonists simply targeting the western market with these characters?
More likely so; but then again, perhaps both might be at work: consideration of viewers of the potential target market [so they can identify with the characters as well], and catering to 'desired' social-conditiong prevalent in Japan.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
And up!
Amazing. I'm currently reading selected works by Troy Duster. Guess what Rasol, the guy quotes CS Lewis on one of his books. Forget Tolkien. I mean, can a black person read CS Lewis or Tolkien without projecting herself as a white European?
(Sorry the late response, expect more replies on next week, Insha'Allah)
Posted by ARROW99 (Member # 11614) on :
well, actually from a cultural standpoint a black person in America is a white european. All of us in the west live in the same western culture and share the same values regardless of our race.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by ARROW99:
well, actually from a cultural standpoint a black person in America is a white european. All of us in the west live in the same western culture and share the same values regardless of our race.
Lol. Your insanity has no bounds. So this is why Jim Crow was enacted, and that there is still disproportionate socio-economic privileges between the social "races" in the U.S.?
Posted by ARROW99 (Member # 11614) on :
I didn't say that we have not had racial problems. I said we share the same values and culture. A southern black has much more in common with a white guy down the street than he does with any African. We talk the same, we listen to the same music, we eat the same food, we watch the same shows on TV, we have the same religion etc etc etc.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by ARROW99:
I didn't say that we have not had racial problems.
Well what are 'racial problems', if they are not cultural?
quote:Arrow99:
I said we share the same values and culture.
Which values were they sharing, to warrant something like Jim Crow? Whose 'shared' values were being enacted by this; all the 'races'?
quote:Arrow99:
A southern black has much more in common with a white guy down the street than he does with any African. We talk the same, we listen to the same music, we eat the same food, we watch the same shows on TV, we have the same religion etc etc etc.
What 'same food' or 'TV' shows do you share; moreover, do people outside of the country not eat these 'same food' or possibly watch the same 'TV' shows, or listen to the 'same' music? Is there only a single religion in the U.S.?
Posted by ARROW99 (Member # 11614) on :
you are being silly now Super car. You know what culture is composed of , look it up in the dictionary. Most American blacks and whites are christians and yes, we listen to the same music. In all of the basic componetys of culture we are the same.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by ARROW99:
you are being silly now Super car.
You make claims and I question them, only to have no answers. Doesn't the fact that you have no answers indicate that the silly one is that individual...the one who has no answers to his/her superficial [and comical at best] claims?
quote:Arrow99:
You know what culture is composed of, look it up in the dictionary.
Indeed I do, but I am not sure that you do. Keep that dictionary nearby, if it will help you answer questions than dodge them.
quote:Arrow99:
Most American blacks and whites are christians and yes, we listen to the same music. In all of the basic componetys of culture we are the same.
So, you are saying there is only a 'single' religion practiced in the U.S., and no other. Do you have evidence to back up this interesting assessment?
Posted by Willing Thinker (Member # 10819) on :
However, keep in mid that race has still been presented as though it is important, if not real scientifficly.
The mere concept that race is still used is proof for that.
Oh, there is a black race. and other races.
And very often an adulescent of non-black decent will, with that realization, talk about how they don't have a chance in sports, because they're not black. And this is the consensus, because some coaches have even joked around, calling the back (half back), the black while implying that's who that position is for(, as 100% of N.F.L. running backs are currently that).
Or a black child will, more often half-seriously, say (in THIS day and age) to someone who doesn't match the status quo (stereotype:); is being intelligent or orderly,
"aren't you supposed to be black" or "black people rap or play sports (as if stating a fact to a dumb person)... oh, I didn't know black people could do/be [BLANK] "
Now ofcourse it 'aint only aa youngsters who define bounderies for what they perceive as their race, but everyone seems to do so for 'their race' and everyon else's 'race'. However, I think we are making progress. That said, ARROW99 and others, it is my opinion that JUMPING THE GUN early OBVIOUSLY could halt this progress, as in any case of curing. Say you were being treated for an illness and things were letting up, you wouldn't want to say you were perfectly fine; if anything, you would prefer to say that you were getting better. - Unless of course you are appealing to an authrity for clearance to do something unwise while sickly Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by Willing Thinker:
However, keep in mid that race has still been presented as though it is important, if not real scientifficly.
Which of course, doesn't make it 'scientific'. There are many pseudo-scientific material presented as though they are important, but lack scientific merit.
quote:Originally posted by Willing Thinker:
The mere concept that race is still used is proof for that.
Oh, there is a black race. and other races.
And very often an adulescent of non-black decent will, with that realization, talk about how they don't have a chance in sports, because they're not black. And this is the consensus, because some coaches have even joked around, calling the back (half back), the black while implying that's who that position is for(, as 100% of N.F.L. running backs are currently that).
Or a black child will, more often half-seriously, say (in THIS day and age) to someone who doesn't match the status quo (stereotype:); is being intelligent or orderly,
"aren't you supposed to be black" or "black people rap or play sports (as if stating a fact to a dumb person)... oh, I didn't know black people could do/be [BLANK] "
Now ofcourse it 'aint only aa youngsters who define bounderies for what they perceive as their race, but everyone seems to do so for 'their race' and everyon else's 'race'. However, I think we are making progress. That said, ARROW99 and others, it is my opinion that JUMPING THE GUN early OBVIOUSLY could halt this progress, as in any case of curing. Say you were being treated for an illness and things were letting up, you wouldn't want to say you were perfectly fine; if anything, you would prefer to say that you were getting better. - Unless of course you are appealing to an authrity for clearance to do something unwise while sickly
What you've just stated in fact speaks of social conditioning; there is nothing scientific about these socially constructed perceptions.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Arwa:
Look at Dr. Troy Duster, and look what he dares to write.
allelic frequencies vary between any selected human groups - to assume those reflect 'racial' variation is unwarranted.
Indeed. We spent the better part of a month trying to explain this to Clyde Winters.
Not sure, though, how you are trying to tie this to a discussion of Lord of the Rings. Posted by meninarmer (Member # 12654) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Well, it only works if you believe in FANTASY stories as REAL history.
I wish that were true. Unfortunately the relationships are subliminal and devastating.
How many images of Africa have been shaped by Tarzan?
How many Black American Baptist churches worship the blonde, blue eyed image of Jesus?
How many so called Africanist continue the racial discourse rooted in the assumptive purity of the white race of Europe, and the assumed miscgenation of Africans and East Asians visa the European 'standard'?
This fantasy/ideology is reflected in the Sudan genocide....the Rwanda genocide, and the more self defeating discourses of so called Afro-centrism.
Hamites are as much a of myth has Hobbits.
The Middle East is as much of a false construct as Middle Earth.
This is all true. Media imagery is used constantly to re-enforce european racist thought. o beyond "Lord Of The Rings", and include other mainstream science fiction such as, Star Trek, Star Gate, and you will see the same subliminal racist messaging. Example: During US-Russia cold war, Star Trek's "Klingons" were savage russian looking beings. Following the end of the cold war, The Klingon appearance is replaced with another "dark" being of a savage race, played by a black man in a suit. Star Gates "Jaffar" race is the mirror image of the klingons.
Let's not even begin with the ever popular, Star Wars. At least they provided their dark villian with a shiny black suit, with a black man's voice.
Also note, science fiction is about humanities future progress. Interestingly, the only vision mainstream writers can predict about the future is, higher technology, and war.
What's interesting is when a native american, or african looks at Trazan against the africans, one can easily see themselves cheering for Tarzan, or in the case of native americans, John Wayne.
Unfortuantely, when you become jaded to the reality of the intentional propagation of these media images, you begin to root for the "bad" guy, who is actually, the good guy. In these flix, the good guys rarely win.
Willing Thinker, you remind me last year, while I attended a race track in Florida. There was a young black man repairing the Track's ticket issuing computers (totes). A jewish woman walked up with her husband, noticed the guy fixing the computer, turned to her husband and said, "I never knew they could be taught to do that." Her husband replied, "maybe it's something a monkey can be trained to do." Wow, is this 2007?
Posted by Willing Thinker (Member # 10819) on :
Whoa, hey neat ^ I'm not from here ^ either! (or so they say)
quote:Also note, science fiction is about humanities future progress. Interestingly, the only vision mainstream writers can predict about the future is, higher technology, and war.
Well, it could be said that part's function is to sell tickets.
Posted by meninarmer (Member # 12654) on :
Yes, that could be said.
Posted by Willing Thinker (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Supercar: What you've just stated in fact speaks of social conditioning; there is nothing scientific about these socially constructed perceptions.
Yea tell me about it
I remember there was a seventh grade english teacher, a christian, of mine who was socially conditioned, and tried to push that (socially constructured perceptions) on all her students. What's worse is she was on the xtreme conservative side, strongly opinionated, and on the racial side.
I was happy to hear from my social studies teacher, strongly atheist, that it was his opinion that she shouldn't be doing so. He's a good guy, I can tell he knew some history. Even though the ancient portion - (which inluded: the early early americans to early african ~ the book only noted on east african, but he tried to mention something about the 3 main west afican empires(Ghana etc.) ~ to the christian to early anglo to east asian, which we didn't finish, then to (more) present-day (american)) - of our history lesson only lasted half the year, it made an impact as it was the first time I cared enough in history class to not get a mediocre grade. American history is fine and all, but we never learn[ed] of any thing else making it mundane. My teaher stressed [recalling] that civilisation is the result of resource or environment or something like that. [it was while we were on the {east} african {egypt & kush or nubia} after he mentioned that the particular african civilization sprang when they found the nile] He was like Water is extremely important to civilization. Where theres water, there's civilization.
I was raised christian, and was SUPPOSED to agree with christians Posted by ARROW99 (Member # 11614) on :
Its not that the majority is always right, its just that we have found that majoritarian government is better than the alternatives. In the United States we have tried to let the majority rule while keeping in mind the rights of the minority. While it has produced some warts from time to time it is still the best of all possible choices.
Posted by Willing Thinker (Member # 10819) on :
You could say best of all conceived choices.
Further, no one even mentioned government.
That is not what social constructed perceptions referred, or is even related to. We were talking about social conditioning. By the way -
O.T. Since I was at least five I've never conceded to anyone elses opinion. I remeber my opinionated cous told me that "the majority is always right", I said "what if they thought 2 + 2 = 5", she said "then they'd be right". I guess there are some advantages to being utterly lacking in the 'common sense' department, as there are common misconceptions.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
Hmmm, does not quite fit with the first test
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
Speaking of Fraiya, at gymnasium, there was a Jewish student at my class, and his name was Fray. Very unusual for a Jew to be called that
Posted by What Box (Wllng Thnkr) (Member # 10819) on :
When two brothers fight you expect them to do injury but so far as they can help it they would not go to teh extent of killing the other. Islam was created by 4 former Greeks of the Byzantine Orthodox Catholic church. They spread the Islamic faith over the former Hellenic territory to enforce a theocratcy bywhich would preserve the empire during the absence of the Greeks ie the Greek fate is the same as the phoenix (always was and will be). If the Mid East and Northern Africa were Christian upon the fall of Constantinople then teh leading religous figure ie the Pope would have controlled these places. Imagine the East and Africa being like Germanics or USA?!!! It indeed would be a cultureless sad world. However now we have preserved the foundation of what distinguishes teh Hellenistic world form the rest. The only problem with the plan was that Islam was supposed to come back to Orthodoxy when Greece was revived. Instead the hatred the Mouslims showed towards Greeks even in 1975 when Egypt expelled Greeks indicated that our vision would be delayed greatly and giving the others....USA and their band of allies far too much time. This was the essential motive behind the Islamic-Christian affairs of the East. If you look into Byzantine History you will even notice that the Seljuk (rum) were given territory to control in Anatolia as Byzantium receded. Of course not everyone knew of the higher plans much like today we have the aristocrats and the common people. The aristocrats or academics preserved the knowledge needed to carry on the process.
The West of Europe was a different story, they plundered and continued to plunder to pay for their enormous and growing armies. When they saw that Byzantium was harbouring Islam to its East they relented with great zeal to take Alexander's backyard and they failed at huge expense. Now at this point the Greeks were in the middle and the East now islam no longer treated Greeks as one and teh same. By the year 1453 Greece was alien to Western Europe, The Middle East and Africa no longer did they come as brothers with a feud, but they destroyed and masacred from both Africa, East and West and North (Hun/Mongols). The Greeks disapeared like a phoenix back into ashes.
As for the reason for all this?
Yes LOTR used imagry and ideas of Western Europe and yes they were by modern standards warped but no more than everything elese in Western Europe. To say he was Racist is just one small little aspect he simply wrote an entire fiction based on his own fictional understandings. Inotherwords you cant seperate fact from fiction in the West. Yet the other thing you must consider is that the cinema and movies indicate the modern political agenda and racims. I never imagined from his book the charcters to be or even look like the ones in teh film. So the images are entirely subjective and i think the movies lately are very anti-black, coloured. Infact I have been waiting for 300 a movie about the spartans to appear....however all the characters in the opposing team (Persians) apear to be Black. It seems they are just desensitising people for another assault on black people.
Posted by What Box Wasalu Emeagwali (spellin? (Member # 10819) on :
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Posted by Sonburst (Member # 12970) on :
All this talk about Tolkien (and C.S. Lewis) being racist is way off target. Tolkien uses the words "white" and "black" for good and evil, but does not connect them with any race. In fact, in the whole of THE LORD OF THE RINGS there is only ONE race of people considered to be of dark skin. They are the "Southerns" or something like that. They are fierce warriers, intelligent and not only attack on foot, but utilize horses and Elephants (Oliphants). Darkness attributed to the orcs or any other species is never specifically mentioned as a skin color (except the Southerns). When Tolkien speaks of darkness or the Dark Lord, he is talking about how evil is void of good, just as shadow is void of light. It has no reference to nationality or skin color whatsoever. I'm amazed to see people who have promised to come one here and not tear others down do so to a man who is dead and cannot defend himself.
Tolkien's biggest debate was with C. S. Lewis on the nature of getting out a Christian story. Tolkien believed that the essence of the Christian theme was the best way to allow the story to flow out freely and yet he makes no mention of any religion at all in his book. C.S. Lewis held that the Christian themes and allegories would naturually arise up out of the story. While these may seem to be very much the same, to these gentlemen it was a point upon which they debated often, and never truly agreed. Each, however, had the greatest respect for the other.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sonburst: All this talk about Tolkien (and C.S. Lewis) being racist
The narrative of Lord of the Rings is racist. The evidence for this is laid out throughout this thread and you address none of it.
Denying is not addressing.
quote: When Tolkien speaks of darkness or the Dark Lord, he is talking about how evil is void of good, just as shadow is void of light. It has no reference to nationality or skin color whatsoever.
Wrong, Tolkiens narrative is filled with references to skin color which over and again associate white skin with good and black skin with evil, such as:
there came from out of Far Harad Black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues. - Tolkien.
This is exactly the basis of Peter Jackson's color coding of the film - with it's all white heroes and black faced villians.
Peter Jackson is simply being true to the Tolkiens racist narrative.
I give him more credit than you, because at least he's honest about it, all you can do is deny and make feeble excuses.
quote: I'm amazed to see people who have promised to come one here and not tear others down do so to a man who is dead and cannot defend himself.
That is called grandstanding.
It hurts your reply because it suggest and emotive investment in defending a celebrity personality and precludes any possibility of objective assessment of his narrative - which was critiqued for its racism in it's day..and when he was still alive.
Hitler is dead too. So what? Our criticism of Lord of the Rings is within the bounds of civil discourse.
Your defense of him his not.
You address no specific criticisms of Tolkiens race narrative while attempting to bully critics into silence.
Because of this, your triffling example of special pleading is dismissed.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
OK, Rasol.
You win and I got your point, but! we should read these kind books, especially us "others" just to grasp where they come from.
(Just you know, I don't like losing a debate, it's just humiliating!)
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ It's not humiliating at all. A true scholar is capable of acknowledging the opinion of others, and changing his/her view based on the case evidence.
My position on Hollywood's negative imagery of Africa and Africans is that it is insideous.
It's almost the intellectual equivalent of crack cocaine.
You can entertain yourself and have fun with it, even as the ideas you are being deeply infected with are slowly destroying you.
I related before an anecdote about a Shona brother - who hates Ancient Egypt because he believes they were white people or Arabs who owned a bunch of Black slaves.
He got this view from the movie the 10 commandments.
Likewise, we have a Somali discussant who - refused to believe Africans - especically AE - would ever refer to themselves as Blacks.
This is the product of being hammered throughout one's life with a Euro-Arab propaganda in which Black is finally - instrinsically negative.
Entertainment as propaganda is simply insideous.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
So Dr. Herr Professor rasol,
Do you think the golden compass is same genre as LOTR?
He says himself that he trays to include the Hellenism culture (Homers: Iliad, Odyssey), and notice that same company is behind the golden compass as LOTR.
There is certain indication that some people want to re-educate people about "Western" culture, but not only that some people even go far to shift the "Western" world from Hellenism to Hebraism, eg., the Televangelists. http://tinyurl.com/3cys45
Looking forward for your reply.
Arwa
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
I meant *tries* Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Arwa: So Dr. Herr Professor rasol,
Do you think the golden compass is same genre as LOTR?
Wow, old thread resurrection.
Haven't read or seen Golden Compass.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ reviewing this old thread for bits of insight....
quote:Originally posted by ausar: Calypso, actually it was not Alexander or the Ptolemies that barred Egyptians from going into Alexandria but actually the Romans. The Romans made it to where no Egyptian could enter Alexandria.
^ And so whose descendants live there today?
" Alexandria, the capital city of Asiatic Europe, if such a thing could exist." -> L Durrell
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Arwa: So Dr. Herr Professor rasol,
Do you think the golden compass is same genre as LOTR?
He says himself that he trays to include the Hellenism culture (Homers: Iliad, Odyssey), and notice that same company is behind the golden compass as LOTR.
There is certain indication that some people want to re-educate people about "Western" culture, but not only that some people even go far to shift the "Western" world from Hellenism to Hebraism, eg., the Televangelists. http://tinyurl.com/3cys45
Looking forward for your reply.
Arwa
Much of the modern fantasy world that is seen in books and movies contains substantial elements of Africa, but it is disguised as European mythology. A lot of European mythology, in one way or other retells and reformulates actual historical and cultural traditions from a distant past that lay OUTSIDE of Europe. The is because in reality much of the TRUE LEGENDARY AGE and LEGENDARY EMPIRES AND CULTURES lay outside of Europe, which becomes the stuff of legend in European folklore.
As an example: restoring the balance is the story of Star Wars. Well that has HEAVY elements of African traditions, in costume, in locales and in the idea of Maat itself, which means "balance". It is the story of Heru, the 'hero' which is one of the TRUE legendary myths that is the basis of much modern folklore.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
As another example of this African element, look at the story of Freya and Brisingamen and see if you cannot identify the African element. Look at Freya's costume. The whole imagery of a norse or ancient European goddess in a lavish boat going through a lush lilly pond with lanterns is heavily influenced by Africa and the lush watery imagery seen in ancient Egypt.
Another legend and myth often associated with Europe is the dragon. But yet that too has an African origin:
quote: The king's prayer: "Ho crown of Lower Egypt! Ho red-crown! Ho Great Crown! Ho Crown great of magic! Ho Fiery Serpent! Grant that the dread of me be like the dread of you; grant that the fear of me be like the fear of you; grant that the acclaim of me be like the acclaim of you; grant that the love of me be like the love of you! Set by aba-scepter at the head of the living, set my sm-scepter at the head of the spirits, and grant that my sword prevail over my foes. Ho red-crown! If you have gone forth from me, so have I gone forth from you."
Reply by the crown: "If Ikhet the Great has borne you, Ikhet the Serpent has adorned you; if Ikhet the Serpent has borne you, Ikhet the Great has adorned you, because you are Horus encircled with the protection of his Eye."
^ Doug, I think you are off your African center on this one. Exactly how are all those elements you pointed out 'African', when they are rooted in ancient indigenous European beliefs?? How is this is so when some of those elements are found in ancient Asian beliefs also??
It seems you are just pointing out universal human mythological traits.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Dragon is indeed a seemingly universal feature of many cultures. However, what I was saying is that a lot of modern mythic fantasy and science fiction has an African element. The point being that African legends and tales have influenced many European tales and many people are not aware of it. I am not saying that all or most European myths originated in Africa, just that some have some elements that may be African influenced.
The point about dragons is that some of the oldest references to fire breathing serpents are in Africa, but most people do not associate Africa with such legends of fire breathing serpents. And indeed many histories of the dragon myth omit the important and powerful images of serpents from ancient Egypt, of which there are many.
As for Freya, the story of her necklace being a powerful symbol of her "charms" brings to mind the image of the Menat necklace and Hathor. While this may not be a direct influence on the Norse legend, it is important to understand that such legends existed in Africa long before Europe, because many people don't associate Africa with such mythic legends, of dragons, of kings, of beautiful goddesses or castles. But such imagery is seen in some of the earliest cultures IN AFRICA.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
A necklace? For crying out loud. Didn't even the Neanderthals make and wear necklaces, so, the Egyptian necklace harks back to non-HSS culture? Hoo-hah.
This reminds of something I read long long ago about how the pea-shooter was the forerunner of the gun and thus the gun is attributed to those peoples who made and used blowguns.
Something's missing. All the pieces ain't here.
Scandinavian myth owes very little if anything to Egypt. Egyptian civilization was all over before the Norse even had a mythology.
Africa is great on its own without trying to lay every general human invention of mode of thought at the door of "ripped off from Africa(ns)."
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ My point exactly. Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Considering that I did not say that a necklace WAS an import from Africa, I would say that you are missing the point. What I am saying is that many legends and myths have patterns that are also found in Africa, whether they are directly influenced by Africa or not. The point being that the Euro Myth making mindset has made many believe in a far ancient mythic European history that does not actually exist, whereas the TRUE history of Africa and elsewhere that DOES have mythic figures and legends from a far distant past is forgotten. Do not forget that the purpose of legend and myth is to say something about a person or people through mythology and the mythology of Europe as larger than life heroes of a distant golden age, plays large on the minds of the young.
Anyway, I just thought that the story of Freya's necklace sounded very familiar to the story of Hathor's menat necklace:
Freyja's necklace:
quote: n Norse mythology, Brísingamen (brisinga flaming, glowing; men jewellry, ornament) is the necklace of the goddess Freyja (or Frigg in some mythological writings). It is believed that when she wore it no man or god could withstand her charms, which was obviously a matter of great concern to the other goddesses during springtime when she reputedly wore it. The necklace also gave support to any army which she favoured on the battlefield.
^ Yeah, and the goddess's necklace story sounds alot like that of Amaterasu, the Japanese sun goddess as well as a Chinese deity.
Again, you're off Africa here.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I'm not missing nothing.
Africa is not Europe. I can't stand anymore of this: "See, Africa has what Europe has" roorag. Always nothing said about Africa unless you put Europe or "de y man" in there somewhere.
Africa has no penis envy of Europe Learn to see Africa through African eyes and stop making Europe some kind yardmark that Africa must match mirror image like.
Shoo what're we going to read next? That Tinkerbell was ripped off from Africa?
Posted by nur23_you55ouf (Member # 10191) on :
Richard Crawshaw, a trustee for the Tolkien Society, said: "There was definitely no racial intent in his work. He detested racism."
^ What do you guys think of that statement? An utter lie(make note of the last sentence...)?
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by nur23_you55ouf: Richard Crawshaw, a trustee for the Tolkien Society, said: "There was definitely no racial intent in his work. He detested racism."
^ What do you guys think of that statement? An utter lie(make note of the last sentence...)?
It's and attempt to avoid the racism in Tolkien's narrative - which is obvious and relevant, by baiting a discussion of Tolkien's *intent* which is unknowable and irrelevant.
Hitler intended to save Europe. He said so himself.
Can you prove that this was not his intent?
Why would you try, unless you are a sucker easily led off-point. [by action, Hitler murdered millions, regardless of "intent"]
The action of and artist is in his work -
Lord of the Rings is a racist narrative.
ie -> "there came from out of Far Harad Black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues." - Tolkien.
This is true regardless of what is professed, often disingenuously about *intent*, by the artist himself or by anyone else.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yeah, and the goddess's necklace story sounds alot like that of Amaterasu, the Japanese sun goddess as well as a Chinese deity.
Again, you're off Africa here.
No I am not. As I said, there is a similarity. Such similarity in this case does not necessarily reflect influence, but in other cases it may.
And again, it is important for people to see that such legends and myths are not exclusive to Europe and that in many cases the African variety is far older.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I'm not missing nothing.
Africa is not Europe. I can't stand anymore of this: "See, Africa has what Europe has" roorag. Always nothing said about Africa unless you put Europe or "de y man" in there somewhere.
Africa has no penis envy of Europe Learn to see Africa through African eyes and stop making Europe some kind yardmark that Africa must match mirror image like.
Shoo what're we going to read next? That Tinkerbell was ripped off from Africa?
Since you mention it, Aesop is said to have been an Ethiopian or African by many sources. So, no it isn't about Africa having penis envy, because there is no contest. African traditions in legends, myths and folklore need no comparison.
But talk to the children and ask them about African folklore and legends about dragons, kings and queens. See if you don't get a blank stare. In fact, see if they don't tell you you are absurdly wrong. The average child of Africa has no idea of the rich tradition of African legends and folklore that is as rich and OLDER than those of Europe. And this is for a reason. Folklore and legend reinforces the ideas and stereotypes of the people they are designed for. As an example, since we are discussing modern fantasy, look at the "lost world" genre, which reflects Europe's insistence of itself as the center of the universe and everything else being "lost" until they discover it:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_World_%28genre%29
But yes, saying that all these elements of European legends and myths that have similarities to African legends reflect African influence is somewhat an overstatement.
However, Europeans tend to think of themselves as the originators and creators of fantasy, which reflects the same sort of cultural arrogance that is seen in many other aspects of European culture. The fact being that African traditions in these areas are far older and very influential in many ways. THAT is more or less what I am trying to get at.
And while I am on it, how many of you all knew that the earliest cartoon characters of Warner and Disney were depictions of blacks?
Oswald the Lucky Rabbit, Felix the Cat, Bosco and Mickey Mouse are all stylized blackface characters who carried on minstrel type antics in animation. All of them, especially Fritz the Cat, were influenced by the Krazy Kat comic strip, which wasn't a black face character, however.
quote: n his book, Of Mice and Magic, Leonard Maltin states that this early version of Bosko "was in fact a cartoonized version of a young black boy... he spoke in a Southern Negro dialect... in subsequent films this characterization was eschewed, or perhaps forgotten. This could be called sloppiness on the part of Harman and Ising, but it also indicates the uncertain nature of the character itself." [5] ... Although Harman and Ising based Bosko's looks on Felix the Cat, Bosko, like Mickey, got his personality from the blackface characters of the minstrel and vaudeville shows popular in the 1930s. Whereas Disney masked Mickey by making him a mouse, Harman and Ising made Bosko a genuine black boy.
Keeping with the stereotypes of the minstrel shows, Bosko is a natural at singing, dancing, and playing any instrument he encounters. In fact, Bosko has the ability to play virtually anything as an instrument, be it a wooden bridge-turned-xylophone or a Dachshund-turned-accordion. In early cartoons, Bosko (voiced by Carmen Maxwell) even speaks in an exaggerated version of black speech (later cartoons would give him a falsetto voice). Despite the parallels between Bosko and the blackface performers, Ising in later years would deny that the character was ever supposed to be a black caricature.
I'm not going to talk to children. I'm going to talk to you. Where was your keyboard during the Gassire's Lute postings? Did you contribute anything to threads exploring "the Big Snake" mythos? -- clickable link Post some African folklore and maybe people will begin to learn it. Whining over the general EuroAmerican culture doesn't promote African folklore. Tell us about some dragons, since you think it so important that "Africa has dragons just like Europe does." You can only promote African culture by positively being part of it not by tearing down EuroAmerica.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
But talk to the children and ask them about African folklore and legends about dragons, kings and queens.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
I am promoting African folklore and traditions. The best way to promote African folklore and traditions is for people to create stories that reflect this tradition in movies, books and film. Unfortunately I am no writer or movie maker.
The point of the thread was the subtle or not so subtle racism in European myth, which means the stories themselves and the overall genre.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
We know what the subject header is. I don't see where you contributed an ounce of any African mythos to this thread, not one story. Nor did you show anything concretely exclusively African in any Euro mythos.
The best way to promote African folklore and traditions is to proliferate them, i.e., tell some African stories to people. Until and unless they hear the stories repetitively and know them by heart they'll never enter your precious white media.
Instead you'll keep getting Santa Claus in blackface and nonesuch like an animal lion king instead of Sundjata the real Lion King.
Posted by nur23_you55ouf (Member # 10191) on :
quote:Hitler intended to save Europe. He said so himself.
Can you prove that this was not his intent?
Why would you try, unless you are a sucker easily led off-point. [by action, Hitler murdered millions, regardless of "intent"]
Can tolkien really write a racist narrative without intending to make it racist(hypothetically assuming that he didn't intend to do so)? Intention is surely relevant, and the case seems to be that the guy was either falsely proclaimed by his trustee as a person who "detested racism", or someone who shouldn't be held accountable for work that is negatively perceived. I'm probably inclinded to believe the former, but the latter isn't completely out of the picture.
Hitler intended to save Eurpoe, but he also intended to do so by all means according to his views(Hitler didn't want to save europe in the implied sense anyway). His extreme actions were basically manifested via extreme intent to saving europe through genocide. He already knew that it may potentially take mass killings to carry out the aforementioned.
quote:ie -> "there came from out of Far Harad Black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues." - Tolkien.
I can see how it may be perceived as racist, but I wouldn't be surprised if it escaped the eyes of many. A reccurrent theme in several literary works is good vs. evil (light and dark) which can possibly be rationalized by readers when they read of "black" characters.
quote:This is true regardless of what is professed, often disingenuously about *intent*, by the artist himself or by anyone else.
Yes, and his narrative may even be a means of venting out his closet racism and xenophobia.(but that would of course require intent, making it all too relevant). Indeed his true colors as well would be shown in his works IF this is true.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
What difference does it make whether I intend to crush ants under my foot as I trod along? The little buggers get the bad end either way.
Even the best intentions cobblestone Hell's path.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: No I am not. As I said, there is a similarity. Such similarity in this case does not necessarily reflect influence, but in other cases it may.
And again, it is important for people to see that such legends and myths are not exclusive to Europe and that in many cases the African variety is far older.
^ So why even bring such similarities up unless you want to convey a human universal commonlity?
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I'm not missing nothing.
Africa is not Europe. I can't stand anymore of this: "See, Africa has what Europe has" roorag. Always nothing said about Africa unless you put Europe or "de y man" in there somewhere.
Africa has no penis envy of Europe Learn to see Africa through African eyes and stop making Europe some kind yardmark that Africa must match mirror image like.
Shoo what're we going to read next? That Tinkerbell was ripped off from Africa?
Exactly! That is one main line where I disagree with Doug is his quest to validate Africa through comparison with Europe, as if Europe is the standard to all regional cultures!
Thus we get nonsense like this past post...
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: And how about some symbolism:
This:
and this:
I don't know if it's more hilarious or pathetic.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: No I am not. As I said, there is a similarity. Such similarity in this case does not necessarily reflect influence, but in other cases it may.
And again, it is important for people to see that such legends and myths are not exclusive to Europe and that in many cases the African variety is far older.
^ So why even bring such similarities up unless you want to convey a human universal commonlity?
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I'm not missing nothing.
Africa is not Europe. I can't stand anymore of this: "See, Africa has what Europe has" roorag. Always nothing said about Africa unless you put Europe or "de y man" in there somewhere.
Africa has no penis envy of Europe Learn to see Africa through African eyes and stop making Europe some kind yardmark that Africa must match mirror image like.
Shoo what're we going to read next? That Tinkerbell was ripped off from Africa?
Exactly! That is one main line where I disagree with Doug is his quest to validate Africa through comparison with Europe, as if Europe is the standard to all regional cultures!
The point that I am making here is that European myths and legends were designed in reinforcing a world view and if that world view meant that blacks and everyone else NON EUROPEAN were savage, evil and ignorant, then the myths would reflect this. The REALITY is that Europe was HEAVILY influenced by the SAME PEOPLE that they chose to demonize and it was these SAVAGES and DEMONS that GAVE Europe some of its finest elements of culture, not the other way around. The point of showing the similarities is to show that there was influence. The iconography and style of the norse gods reminds me of people and traditions to the EAST, namely in Asia Minor and the Fertile Crescent. In fact, there are many scholars, linguists and historians who have made the point that the legends of the Aesir (norse gods) are relfective of the Kurgan Hypothesis, which describes the introduction of IndoEuropean culture and language into the Mediteranean and Europe. One sign of this is the ascendence of Patriarchal male dieties (Thor, Zeus) over older Matriarchal dieties (Cybele,Gaia,Hathor,Isis). It is in these older goddesses like Cybele and Isis that you see the origins of Freya in form, dress and symbolism. Likewise, the fact that Egyptian temples for thousands of years represented female dieties in all sorts of very elaborate dress also had a profound influence on this tradition. The facts and evidence are there and abundant showing the relationships between these cultures and the flow of such traditions. The point is that I wasn't really trying to go that deep into it.
But as I said, the relatively modern European myths aren't about telling the TRUE history of Europe and the spread of European culture, but they are about making Europeans larger than life and reflecting a general world view that was widespread at the time (Europe as the ORIGINATOR of high culture from an ancient "golden" age, as opposed to the recipient of culture from an ancient golden age OUTSIDE of Europe). Mordor from Lord of the Rings is in many was a reflection of the dark Islamic minions, the Moors, who were always a symbol of savagery and evil in Christianized European propaganda.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Thus we get nonsense like this past post...
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: And how about some symbolism:
This:
and this:
I don't know if it's more hilarious or pathetic.
As for the last post, once you understand history as putting people, places and things together in context, what I said would make sense. This painting is not an ACTUAL picture of George Washington as he crossed the Delaware. It is purely political and designed to show the future president as strong, courageous and LEADING the charge for "freedom". Such symbolism of state and politics is ancient and is not "universal" as such artwork did not enter Europe until LATE. The origins of such artwork go back to Africa, Mesopotamia and further East. But this connection between older cultures and traditions of political/religious symbolism are not ABSTRACT in terms of the early American state. During the period of the late 1800s, the result of Napoleon's expeditions to the East had created a culture of Egyptomania among European aristocrats. This Egyptomania had a strong influence on the early founders of the American State. THAT is why so much of the symbolism of the country stems from the East, because interest IN THE EAST was all the craze in European elite circles at the time and the basis for expeditions to uncover more of the past in Africa and Asia. So, the idea that George Washington crossing the Delaware is a reflection of ancient traditions going back to the images of kings and officials in ancient Egypt is not far fetched at all. In fact, the painting was not even painted in AMERICA and it was painted almost 100 years after the events it described IN GERMANY. The overall composition is symbolic and not literal. Again, originally I just was making a general point and did not want to go deep into it. But anyway.
quote: With the possible exceptions of DaVincis' Mona Lisa and Last Supper, this is perhaps the most universally recognized image in the entire history of art.
It is also an image that historians love to hate.
Painted in Dusseldorf, Germany around 1851, the artist had lived in America as a boy, and after going back to Germany, had returned to America many times (years later he would emigrate here). While here, he visited the Smithsonian and examined Washingtons uniform and sword, and carefully studied paintings and sculpture of the Great General which were done in Washingtons lifetime. Yet, despite this intensive research into historical accuracies, Leutze then let his artistic license run wild. Perhaps that is why this painting is usually classified in the "Romantic" school of art.
The actual crossing was done in the dead of night, during a driving snowstorm, and was completed by three a. m. Leutze indulged in symbolism showing Washington leading his men out of a stormy darkness into a new dawn of freedom. Indeed, although you can't make it out in our electronic image, in the original, in the sky directly above the foremost oarsman, Leutze painted in the morning star, invoking the legend of the wise ones following the star at Christmas.
Two future Presidents of the United States crossed the river that fateful night, James Madison and James Monroe. Also along with the army were a future Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, John Marshall, and famous rivals Aarron Burr and Alexander Hamilton.
Besides Washington, only two of the figures in the boat have been identified. Look closely at the fellow holding the flag, and you'll see James Monroe. He was quartered in the house where Washington made the decision to cross, and served as a scout and trusted adviser to the General, but there's nothing in the historical records to indicate he crossed in the same boat. Note the so-called "Betsy Ross" flag, with the stars in a circle. This design first came into existence some six months after the crossing.
The other recognizable figure, pulling on an oar at Washingtons knee, is Prince Whipple, a black patriot who has become a minor legend of the Revolution. As an early biographer said of him: "Prince Whipple was born in Amabou, Africa, of comparatively wealthy parents. When about ten years of age, he was sent by them, in company with a cousin, to America to be educated. An elder brother had returned four years before, and his parents were anxious that their child should receive the same benefits. The captain who brought the two boys over proved a treacherous villain, and carried them to Baltimore, where he exposed them for sale, and they were both purchased by Portsmouth men, Prince falling to Gen. Whipple. He was emancipated during the [Revolutionary] war, was much esteemed, and was once entrusted by the General with a large sum of money to carry from Salem to Portsmouth. He was attacked on the road, near Newburyport, by two ruffians; one was struck with a loaded whip, the other he shot...Prince was beloved by all who knew him. He was the "Caleb Quotom" of Portsmouth. where he died at the age of thirty-two leaving a widow and children."
But, while many black soldiers served in Glovers Marblehead Regiment, the unit that ferried the army across the river, Prince Whipple wasn't one of them. In fact, in December of 1776 he was in Baltimore.
Of course, few of the soldiers who crossed the river that horrible night to fight what was to be one of the few battles that can be said to have changed the course of the history of the entire world were as fortunate as Monroe or Madison. Major James Wilkinson, who was on his way to join Washington, found his route easy to follow: "There was a little snow on the ground, which was tinged here and there with blood from the feet of the men who wore broken shoes." Primary documents differ about Patriot casualties, but even the most pessimistic reflect that the only American dead after the battle were two soldiers who froze to death.
None of that means you have to agree with me, but I don't generally pull stuff out of thin air either.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Yeah, the artist needed the Egyptian harpooning scene -- had it even been uncovered in his day? -- because he so lacked the imagination to paint a picture of an actual event, Washington crossing the Delaware.
Pul-leez.
Are there Black Americans that beaten down that they must imagine every accomplishment of their former enslavers as a ripoff from Africa just because they themselves were ripped off of Africa?
No, I don't get it and I don't want to get it.
My history culture and heritage stands quite well on its own and I don't need Eurpean, Asian, or any other contnent as a foil to validate it.
I'm sad to admit it but yes there does seem to be some self esteem issues involved with some Black American views of Africana. Such a pity, it's not humorous in the least. In fact it's sad, very sad.
There's no connection between Freja wearing a necklace in a boat on a pond and Nile river or marsh boating fowling and harpooning scenes and Hathor's necklace. There are ponds and marshes and rivers and boats all over the world. Love goddesses with necklaces or other sexy stuff are all over the world and far precede AE in time.
There is no connection between the fire breathing dragon of European lore and the great serpent (not dragon) Ikhet. Their functions are nothing alike in the least nor had Euros any idea of Ikhet because they knew not AE literature or mythology or spirituality in that era.
There is utterly and absolutely no connection whatsoever between the painting of Washington's crossing, for he did indeed cross the Delaware in a boat, and any AE boating pictures or ancient Sudanese engravings of pharaohs in royal/war barges.
Every people on earth, their "myths and legends were designed in reinforcing a world view," that of their own. Nothing special or sinister about johnny-come-lately Europe doing that too.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
This statement is more on the money though I'm not sure Moors always symbolized savagery as much as they did evil.
You only have to elide the r and d from Mordor to get Moor which immediately invokes dar al~Islam.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Mordor from Lord of the Rings is in many was a reflection of the dark Islamic minions, the Moors, who were always a symbol of savagery and evil in Christianized European propaganda.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
I never said that the painting DEFINITELY was the result of influence in the mind of the painter from Egyptian scenes. However, the IDEA that American symbolism was influenced by Egypt in its early days is a fact that any historian will testify to. The only reason I posted it is because they looked so similar that it peaked my interest. I doubt that you would be able to find any evidence of any connection, even though publications of Egyptian art were available in the early 1800s.
quote: Like Europeans, most Americans today take for granted the Egyptian symbols and forms that are part of their own cultural and historical baggage. The Washington Monument is, after all, a classic obelisk as Egyptian in design - and even in purpose - as the "Cleopatra's needles" found in New York's Central Park, on the banks of the Thames in London or in Rome.
Then too, half the Great Seal of the Republic is decidedly Egyptian. Look at the back of a dollar bill: to the right is the familiar eagle gripping a banner reading: E Pluribus, Unum - "Out of Many, One." But on the other side? On the other side is a pyramid surmounted by a human eye, over the legend, Novus Ordo Sedorum (sic) - roughly, "The New Order of the Ages."
As they saw it, Americans were creating a new order, and that meant establishing a bit of instant credibility through association with an old one. "With a newly won national identity," says Carrott, "Americans sought to achieve an ancient past for their land."
In this, Americans weren't too different from the Romans who dreamed up Romulus and Remus, and a wolf to suckle them, as founders of the state, later improving upon that by crediting Aeneas with the job. Aeneas, the Roman story went, came from Troy - every bit as ancient and as refined a place as the Greek city states that Rome was busily conquering.
Some American myth-makers found their Aeneas among Egyptian seafarers, who, they suggested, visited the shores of America, and left colonies long before Columbus or the Vikings. Robert Cary Long Jr., for example, an expert on Mayan ruins, believed the builders of pyramidal temples in Central America journeyed there from Egypt before the time of Cheops and the Great Pyramids at Giza. North America, of course, could boast no such ruins, but early Americans claimed a similar heritage anyway. "After all," says Professor Herb Kraft of Seton Hall University's Archeological Research Center on the North American Indians, "there are still... strange mounds, many of them pyramidal in shape, that dot the landscape in states like Ohio."
The fact is that symbolism of state is very influential in the politics of Europe and America and a lot of that symbolism comes from the ancient world of the Mediterranean and Africa. It is also well known to most art historians that European portrait art is sometimes heavily embellished with symbolic compositions, forms and gestures, whether the average person knows it or not.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: This statement is more on the money though I'm not sure Moors always symbolized savagery as much as they did evil.
You only have to elide the r and d from Mordor to get Moor which immediately invokes dar al~Islam.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Mordor from Lord of the Rings is in many was a reflection of the dark Islamic minions, the Moors, who were always a symbol of savagery and evil in Christianized European propaganda.
Tolkien's wordplay was anything but sutble.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LOL Why can't Tolkien just be an imaginative fellow who used Norse mythology, and not one who did so but also input his modern political/racial notions. Posted by TempAussie (Member # 23633) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: ... In all reality all the tales of the elves ACTUALLY are reflections on ancient cultures of Africa, Asia and elsewhere, who DID worship nature. The dwarves refer back to the ancient anu and Twa of Africa and elsewhere. The hobbits are the small people that some scientists say existed in places as far away as Australia. ...
... However, what this FANTASY story does reflect is a FANATICAL desire among Western Europeans to put THEMSELVES on top of everyone else as a way of GETTING BACK at everyone else for being the LAST to become "civilized". ...
... NONE of it is REAL, but the IDEA is what counts, which states that Europeans are must become the Kings of Kings on the world stage and return power and glory to Europe, regardless of whether ancient Europe was the HOME of civilization or not, basically WHITE supremacy 101. ...
... Actually, to the reality is that the Myths reflect a way of Europeans trying to deny the fact that the TRUTH of history was that Western Europe was on the RECIEVING end of culture and CIVLIZATION and that they were BACKWARDS compared to their neighbors in the South and East. Their embarrassment at this state of BACKWARDNESS compared to Rome, Greece, Africa(Egypt, Sudan, ets) and ultimately the golden age Islamic empires of the Moors and later the Ottomans, is what sparked their desire to become "masters" of the world, based on a FANATICAL claim of racial purity (which never existed in fact). ...
... But I am claiming that much of Europe's claim to greatness is based on a whole BOATLOAD of B.S. that is NOT based on any historical fact and that Western Europe was the LAST to become civilized among men, not the FIRST. ...
... ALL of it has its origins in the MYTHOLOGY of Western Europe being the ORIGIN of civilization and culture, when it WAS NOT.
=============
Wow - where to start?
"In all reality all the tales of the elves ACTUALLY are reflections on ancient cultures of Africa, Asia and elsewhere, who DID worship nature."
Sorry mate, but you can't deny ANYone's worship of nature, just as much as catholics and neo-christian-romans WANTing for the whitewashing of indegenous culture of Western and Northern Europe to be forgotten in an imagined christian future, WOULD HAVE YOU BELIEVE, that nothing respectful of nature existed beforehand, only brutality, or cthonic madness, etc.
your use of "DID" in capitals, suggests you're just as racist in suggesting that nature was-not worshipped there. It did, and those that can proudly say-no to christianity/islam/judaism, STILL do so, even if having to do so while having to tell americans to stop blurring the lines when it comes to what's-religion and what's-ethinicity, with their own racist carelessnesss with what's-semitic and what's-jewish, etc.
It's important to be more EXACT in who you're talking about. "the west" , or "europeans" , is pretty vague.
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2
"The dwarves refer back to the ancient anu and Twa of Africa and elsewhere."
Tolkein clearly states they were created FROM THE EARTH, and both resistent to (magic(sic)) as well as not being skilled in it, while skilled in crafts - there may well be similarities between mytholigical / folklore characters FROM the cultures you're mentioning, but that makes it a cultural IMITATION, not a "reference". And FYI, there are similar mysterious god/s-gifts myths about dwarves in cultures in europe too - underworld, cauldron-born, horse-born, sea-born, moon-borne, etc - generally folklore/mythical stuff - often with a, 'mixture of blessings' (some abilities/familiarities better than usual, in fatalistic 'exchange', for deficiencies). Those INCLUDE dwarves, so where's your proof?
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3
"The hobbits are the small people that some scientists say existed in places as far away as Australia."
wwwwhat? which "scientists" took that from a google search, did you?
the hopeless, just-after-readers JOURNALISTS and REPORTERS, that cut&paste the momentary-comment, affectionate-descriptor used by the archaeoligcal anthropologist over in that island in indo near Aus, is only that - reporters and journos, TRYING TO GET YOUR ATTENTION - in archaeology, there are MANY examples of small genetic dead-ends, AND temporary SOURCE points for genetics, of human genes where a population ADJUSTED to living in cramped conditions - caves, jungle floors, old-water-carved cavern-systems, etc - you wouldn't think Afghans would have SQUAT genes in them, would you? well there you go - it's hidden in EVERYONE.
BACK TO THE TOPIC ... hobbits, in terms of his creative process, were a migratory MIX of dwarven and elven blood via humans in the middle that LIVED IN BARROWS,.. part-UNDERGROUND dwellings, which OVER TIME, long-since the days of their xenophobia of each other in the 1st rendering of the earth or whatever, in Belieriand,.. ended up using their dwarven ... mmm ... instinct, desire, skill, whatever, in a kind of BALANCE, in hills, rather than DEEPLY underground.
They were a plot-contrievance in being-NEITHER elven NOR dwarvern, but with a mix of BOTH, so as to be confusing / surprising TO Sauron - as in, they're meant to be FAVORED, by huamns, since they are LESS-predictable than both elves and dwarves.
Frodo's resistence to the ring, is meant to be at least partly from that sort of mixture, as-was Sam's ability to hand-back the ring when they're so-close to the ring of fire, and the ring tries to get a grip on his mind, but that dwarvern, perhaps, resistence, doesn't let it/Souron's will/soul, in.
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4 "...what this FANTASY story does reflect is a FANATICAL desire among Western Europeans to put THEMSELVES on top of everyone else as a way of GETTING BACK at everyone else ..."
LOL ... get over yourself man - civ developed in SMALL PARTS,.. over time, from all over the globe - there ARE no central or singular points of origin, and the pathetic flamewars in places like this just demonstrate to everyone what hypocrisy looks like when it's got temporary fingers to point at recent oppression / atrocities / dis-advantage/mistakes-of-our-nearest-generations.
"...FANATICAL desire among Western Europeans"
Tolkein, in portraying a contrast of war, versus nature-linked types like elves, is somehow GENERALLY thematic, of us-westerners-vs ..?
I can't remember how many times i've had to point out the the 'western' in LOTR, is NOT, the same western in R ;
as in ... the W in RL, is either something oringally a characterisation from chinese? who started using basic-compasses back when magnetics were first discovered, and the WINDS-FROM-THE ... of each direction, became a metaphor, or, then a persian/turkish/mongol term for things west of them, or further south, things african/arabian from a south-asian POV ... even with that, you have 2 different concepts for what might APPEAR to be the same term, but it's not.
BACK to Tolkein's,.. HIS.. is of returning SEA POWER, in defiance-against Morgoth/Melkor/Sauron, in lands to the west being UNREACHABLE to them, and the SEA power of the elves having come to aid humans in times in the past, and-so UNLIKE in most of the world, the elves had managed to survive and humans ADOPTING being LESS-pure, LESS-human, in becoming mixed-blood,.. was actually an ELVEN power, or strength, AMONGST the human.
your and others BS about race, whiteness, and the usual, is just presumptive guesswork, guys.
Do your READING FIRST, before you start pointing fingers.
i.e. MORE ELVEN ... = LESS human = LESS pure.
hey, it's FUN to tell white-supremacists that on pages like these!! take it easy man! seriously. it's ... sigh... difficult, to tell it to some such as yourselves,.. but it's sure as hell FUN to tell it to them!
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5 "...but the IDEA is what counts, which states that Europeans are must become the Kings of Kings on the world stage..."
"europeans" ... again, you're over-generalising,
and re "the world stage", Tolkein SPECIFICALLY made a point about the limits of his SCOPE, when making the books - as in ... it was to have LIMITED, NON-global context for the most part, in the CONTEXT of what he'd experienced in war in-germany, in FIGHTING germans, this is,..
FIGHTING f***ing white-supremacists, no-less, and as a part of his LANGUAGE studies, which focused on germanic origins of some of the things in English which come from german languages, the LIMIT OF THE SCOPE of some of the LITERARY devices ... word-play more or less ... that he included in the series, including the elven / runic alphabet, in case you hadn't noticed.
He wasn't DELIBERATELY not making a story wthout most of the world in it ... he was deliberately making a story, with a west/east SCOPE, ending not-far BEYOND, germany, or vague geography 'with some stretching' ... to get a bit of a sense of that, re-read the differences between the elves that refused the journey, the avari - they'd be as-white-as-can-be ... if the germans had had their way, you might say.
If stripping LOTR of it's context after the war, they could've been ... pfff... who cares... light brown? spend a lot of time outdoors, but a lot of it under forest, so they'd not be as tanned as other elves?
Totally-not-the-point though. to get "...world stage" from Tolkein's efforts, is rediculous. His constant theme in contrast, is WAR MACHINE like mentality, versus living in harmony with nature mentality. If you haven't got that from it, then you're way-off.
The context is one of INDUSTRIALISATION in germany, that goes back several hundred years, while the german crown DELIBERATELY UNDERDEVELOPED britain, and CREATED EMBITTERNESS / RESENTMENT in the UK, while the royal family had it's higher-branches in a german family
Only a declaration during? after? WWii , SEVERED the british royal family PERMANENTLY, from the german branches.
Not everything behind a writer's reasons, is on-the-page man. Relax.
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6 "...a way of Europeans trying to deny the fact that the TRUTH of history was that Western Europe was on the RECIEVING end of culture and CIVLIZATION and that they were BACKWARDS compared to their neighbors in the South and East. Their embarrassment..."
I actually LIKE your writing here, and agree to some extent, but you're again generalising - culture is FLUID, and non-stagnant/static. It's best not to characterise an ENTIRE PEOPLE, mm? you're characerising MANY, entire peoples. f-off - not every European's an-imperial mate - a lot of effort and blood and tears were spent BY europeans, to defeat European empires, in case you hadn't noticed.
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7
"...their desire to become "masters" of the world..."
wwwwwhoa!
Nazis, wanted that not "europeans".
there were plenty of europeans on the Allies side FROM THE START it wasn't just Britain/France.
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8 "...and that Western Europe was the LAST to become civilized among men, not the FIRST..."
again, that's a generalisation - culture is gradual, fluid, and relative to what you VALUE - if a society values only building huts out of spruce up in Sweeden then it will SEEM primative to a mediterranean while then outlasting some imported limestone that dissolves in the rain,.. whatever.
"becoming civilised" is over-rated. one can argue that no-where in the world is STILL, truly-civilised, NOR, has there ever-been anywhere that was - even in ancient Greece or Egypt you still had all kinds of cruelties based on class.. UNlike in simpler lands where LESS-imperial nature led to more relaxed social-order. It is actually paradoxical that the more slagging off of the less-imperial you slag off as you're putting it "less civilised" ... the MORE ovvious you reveal yourself as a hypocryte when ignoring all the suffering that empires created / used as a means to more power - think Egypt's slaves were motivated by a change to glance at a queen's tits when she's on parade? They had massive whips mate. nasty stuff. you're talking DEGREES of suffering in ALL our ancient pasts... achievement based on technology and innovation and science is mostly OPPORTUNITY based - as in ... your capacities with it START ... when you get the chance to - not some imaginary equal-starting-line , were europeans as you're putting it, equally-STARTing from some equal-point,.. and then-what ... CHOOSING to not develop science/etc?
probably mostly a problem with communication, a lack of translators, and soon-after, imperial imposition - greeks first then the romans. You don't get a lot of time to sit around pondering the wonders of the universe, when there's a roman conscriptor knocking at your door after your son, and you have to go club him to death and bury the body.
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9 "...ALL of it has its origins in the MYTHOLOGY of Western Europe being the ORIGIN of civilization and culture..."
WHAT myth-origins are you going on about?
nothing i've ever heard or come across claims that.
some guff the Nazis came up with?
pffff. i'm as white as can be mate but i've never even looked at it. doesn't have ANY prescence in my life.
their-shit's on the fire now when it used to be whoever they wanted's shit on the fire. enjoy the reversal eh?
==============
Why are most on this forum so careless about generalisations?
Rich imperialists from recent history from europe, do NOT represent all the PEOPLE, living, or having-lived, in europe.
it's always a mistake to choose too-inclusive a word, rather than the class-enemy / fascist-enemy, we need to be more careful about describing.
Posted by TempAussie (Member # 23633) on :
Intention is surely relevant, and the case seems to be that the guy was either falsely proclaimed by his trustee as a person who "detested racism", or someone who shouldn't be held accountable for work that is negatively perceived. I'm probably inclinded to believe the former, but the latter isn't completely out of the picture.
"...the case seems to be..."
if you'd've watched the interviews in which he details some of his creative intent and processes after all the 'experiences', what we'd now call PTSD from the war, and understand it in-context of the german industrialisation hypocrisy of the 18th/19th centuries, in-which the german royal family wanted to leave britain UNDERdeveloped, but the by-products of WAR-MACHINE (as supposedly neccessary) like mentality was clashing with humanist/humanisms ... you'd KNOW, rather than leaving your point a deliberately-unanswered question.
Not that someone's works being negatively perceived is neccessarily something to have to answer-for, if the perceivER, is MISTAKING intent, or not-understanding the ACCESS to reading/starting materials that you're talking about - as in ... considering what a writer COULD make these days, with the net... it's very easy to judge what someone MADE ... past-tense ... inamongst libraries full of imperial BS.
THAT, if anything, is the cause for some of the choices in his monsters characteristics,
although i disagree about the slant-eyed criticism...
simply because one slant-eyed characterism COMES FROM an INSECTOID or Lizard/serpentine base, of eyelid differences, and-also leaf-splitting or paied-leaf opening myth, in fae insectoid like faces, which are EMERGENT from the greenery, and when vindictive, hostile to humans, and-so portrayed as both victims, but also dangerous, or obscure, or unknowble, mysterious, dark,.. whatever. SOME, of that tradition, of eyes-amongst-the-greenery ... existed well-before christian mongol-horde monsters.
The animated MOVIE, in the 1960s, of the hobbit, got a lot of people rightly pissed about, 'the huns' helmets...
but that was NOT tolkein's choice, creation, nor anything else - same with many front-covers it/they was a creation of ADVERTISERS, and in the case of that particular animation,.. THEIR artistic directors, stylists, animators,.. lead-artists high on cat-pee like Kenny & Mr Browlowski,.. whatever mate. Not Tolkein. He actually made a concession of regret, that a PRODUCT, had that 'huns' characterisation in it.
as in ... when ALREADY being flogged for sales,.. he regretted that his name was being dragged through the mud because of it. That's clearly NOT some kind of un-apologetic neo-nazi or something, talking shit about white-supremacist-BS. It probably just happened without him noticing - they didn't have the same degree of scrutiny in what was being made, as the Tolkein-Trust does these days.
Posted by TempAussie (Member # 23633) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
[/qb]
[/qb][/QUOTE]Tolkien's wordplay was anything but sutble. [/QB][/QUOTE]
it was also geographically-constrained, in terms of it's SCOPE, per things to the east-of-germany, and south of all of the limited east-west rolls-sideways-map (a scroll with only east/west features) , and that's the MAIN reason, not-to read-into would be intentions too-deeply, else end up in YOUR OWN IMAGINATION, though your imaginING, of someone else's imagination/ing.
it gets very alice in the looking glass, very quickly.
When in the few passages where Tolkein is writing of travellers' descriptions of things they saw in the south, such as in the Far Harad, he's not making generalisations about the WHOLE WORLD, ffs, he's ending up putting into a very limited context of a very small nummber of travellers' stories of things they've seen when-afar from home - for all we know, the red-tongues / white faces, could've been face-painting or ceremonial ash, or something. whoopy-do. is dsecribing dwarves FROM the west, like those in i think it was taur en faroth? GENERALISING about all westerners as being "short", "dour",.. whatever?
NO - it is a single instance, not a general characterisation - by comparison, Tolkein clearly states that Sauron had CORRUPTED most of the other people's of the earth, far-lands? whaetever,.. and THAT was the reason, for their various flaws / crude-human brutalities,..
i.e. JUST AS MUCH, as the ones corrpupted by Sauron in western lands,
like it or not - the ones in western lands, were brutish, hairy, unclean/smelly, ate raw meat, whatever.
If he'd've written-in as a basic plot-premise, that elves had been created in... pff... thailand or something, would you be accusing him of being PRO Thai?
or would the LOGICAL PLOT DEVELOPMENTS, proximal, CLOSE... to where they're supposed to've been created, (by what's his?her? name, one of the gods in the simarillion) ... end up being REPETITIVELY LOCAL, to where you've made your plot-setting?
If a similar story was based around, say, Lake victoria, with it's freaky amasing visual nature, and the difference between those humoursly 'girly' SEEMing flamingo ankle-bands, was poked at ... would the REST of the world, be able to point out the difference between pink-water-elves emerging from the waters.. all spanky and smooth, compared to the writers... oooo ... clear-racism ... in making the humans seem primative by contrast?
and that the writer is trying to 'purify' the locals, into becoming MORE PINK?
F-off ... elves have a fae history going back longer than any christian BS is willing to admit-to, just as much as folklore ANYwhere, has greenery-dwelling folk that have deeper, older-origins, per various creation-myths.
Some argue, that because it was a white guy with Tolkein, borrowing from BOTH euro-western/euro-northern myths and culture, AS-WELL-AS some things from afar, especially creationary myth like stories or bases as some here have pointed out in similarities of names,..
... that it's truly staggering to see so many so blanket/stab-in-the-dark mis-diagnosing cultural-mis-approriation, or imitation, as racism - when 'white-devils' , appear in all kinds of shit in africa,.. does the whole world go up in arms, about one particular drama-school director, and slag them off, incensantly?
no. why? because anthropological, cultural, alien-natures, of foreign things,.. IS,.. natural.
it's called CAUTION, and it's a good thing.
when that turns into systemic/imperial racism/hostility, that's something else.
---
please at least TRY,.. to tell the difference between an-OIC turned war-veteran, (yes that's spelt correctly)
portraying ORCs, who have lost their elven-origins?
it's critical to the war-machine THEME,
and if you miss it, you might as well not bother pretending to understand the series, OR the writer's intentions.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Wow. Thanks for restoring a very old lost thread.
Again, the thread topic was not a direct discussion of Tolkien's influences and heritage vs the role of mythology in reflecting a certain world view.
But yes, dwarves and nature worship on a grand scale is ancient in Africa. And in this day and age of so-called 'woke' entertainment, they still are not doing any live action versions of African mythology.
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
Ethiopia and Lord of the Rings
quote:Was Ethiopia the inspiration for Middle-earth in the Lord of the Rings trilogy? That’s what a several writers and LOTR bloggers seem to think. Their theory is based on the fact that so many of the place names on the classic fantasy series by J.R.R. Tolkien are remarkably similar to Ethiopian place names – the fictional Gondor and the real-life Gondar, Rohan and Roha, Harad and Harar, Barad-dûr and Bahir Dar.
Although Tolkien never visited Ethiopia, other facts bolsters the theory that at least some of LOTR was inspired by the Horn of Africa. For one thing, Tolkien was a native African – born in Bloemfontein in South Africa’s Orange Free State in 1892. And he began writing the first book shortly after Italy’s controversial invasion of Ethiopia in 1935. So even though the author lived in England at the time he wrote the books, without doubt Africa was part of his heritage and his psyche.
Read more about the theory in The Real Middle-earth: Discovering the Origin of The Lord of the Rings, a book by Michael Muhling. You can also find discussions about the theory at these link
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
Links? What the hell is this suppose to mean? When are invasions not controversial? Italy’s controversial invasion of Ethiopia in 1935. Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: Links? What the hell is this suppose to mean? When are invasions not controversial? Italy’s controversial invasion of Ethiopia in 1935.
Read more about the theory in The Real Middle-earth: Discovering the Origin of The Lord of the Rings, a book by Michael Muhling. You can also find discussions about the theory at these links:
quote:One of the underappreciated aspects of Tolkien's genius, Garth believes, is that he was a "master synthesist". As he goes on, "People tend to think simultaneously that he got all his ideas from Northern myth and that he made everything up out of nowhere. In fact, he found his inspirations in many places". Or from all four points of the compass, as Garth sets about explaining in latest book, The Worlds of JRR Tolkien: The Places that Inspired Middle-earth. From the East, for instance, came medieval legends of Alexander the Great and the Egyptian infatuation with mortuary architecture that continues in the Middle-earth kingdom of Gondor. Among the least explored are those that came from the South, the classical influences that were so dominant in Tolkien's own cultural era. The author was explicit in the role that the Atlantis legend played in shaping his Númenor, for instance, and as Garth explains, his account of its downfall – a key element of the Amazon series – builds from Plato's account of the powerful Western sea-empire destroyed by hubris.
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Good ol' Hore was known to bring laughs some laughs to this board!
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Indeed, as can be seen by works from Winters even in this board.![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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, epecially since, although I like all women, I happen to prefer darkskinned girls. This is no surprise to most African Americans, since 'good hair' and 'nice skin' are used to note straight hair and light skin.![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
And exactly what "limitations" have I put in my life?? I never bashed Europeans if that is what you are thinking. I even told you I like learning about European history and culture also and have also read Norse myth, although I am more familiar with Greek myth. 
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