This is topic Motion Picture: Goddess of the Sun in forum Egyptology at EgyptSearch Forums.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=003890

---

Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
 
Major Motion Picture GODDESS OF THE SUN all rights reserved Milad Sourial 2006-2007

Amenhotep the Great, the world’s most powerful leader is dying. Political intrigue within the royal court and pious ignorance of corrupt priests trap Egypt’s reluctant Queen Nefertiti (Halle Berry) within a labyrinth of circumstance and superstition.


Goddess of the Sun Website

.
 

---

Posted by Yonis (Member # 7684) on :
 
Wow, great cast, maybe the producers have visited egyptsearch


A mullato as Akhenaton, not bad better than bruce willis or russel crow,lol


denzel as horemheb, nice


But this woman is perfect as queen Tiye, they are almost identical


Nice job by the producers, looking forward to see this movie.
 

---

Posted by Yonis (Member # 7684) on :
 


But what the hell is this? looks like a clingon warrior from startrek I hope this movie is not gonna end up like a fiction type of movie like Stargate.
 

---

Posted by Yonis (Member # 7684) on :
 

oh yeah we have somali representation in the movie "Iman as Yerit TETISHERI
the Oracle of Amen, Ranking Member of the Matriarchate"

Great that there also modern egyptian and berber actors.

Omar sharif as great father Aye


And the french born berber said Taghmaoui as hany the chariot runner.


we also have sidney portier as the vicor of kush.


Salma hayek and Djimoun Haounsou are also in it. I love this casting
hope it becomes a box office hit.
 

---

Posted by TK (Member # 10103) on :
 
I would love it if the movie they didn't refer to it as Egypt but Kemet but i'm quite happy with the casting choice.
 

---

Posted by Yonis (Member # 7684) on :
 
Is this really the cast of the movie? Coz i cant find anything about it in the Imdb database, and the title "goddess of the sun" is no where to be found even on search engines in relation to Egypt. I hope this is not just some hobby casting of some irrelevant person.

I also suspected something was wrong whith so many high paid actors, the movie industry normally dont hire so many expensive actors at the same time on a single motion picture, its too expensive, oh well it was fun as it lasted
 

---

Posted by TK (Member # 10103) on :
 
Yonis while it's true that they don't usually cast this many high profile actors I suspect that many of the African American actors would definately take a pay cut for this film. This is the closes we'll ever get to an actual representation of Ancient Egypt.

Also lets factor in the Oceans series of movies that featured alot of high profiles stars like Brad Pitt, Julia Roberts, Matt Damon, George Clooney etc. It doesn't seem that farfetched if we think about it.

It's just that their are alot of high profile AA's in this movie that makes one question the authenticity.
 

---

Posted by J-Dog (Member # 10405) on :
 
I don't think this is an ACTUAL in production movie of Ancient Egypt, it's too historically accurate But whosever musing this website is, this is a pretty good cast! He did his homework!
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Wow, I'm stunned!!

Is this casting for real?!!

I knew they had Halle Berry and the other mixed-dude as Akhenaton but I didn't know about all the other characters!

This is perhaps the most accurate portrayal of Ancient Egypt by Hollywood ever made!!

The question is how will the mainstream public react to such a casting??
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Why are you guys calling this "accurate"? What makes you all say this? I mean, sure, they have black actors in key roles, but does that mean it REALLY reflects the reality of ancient Egypt. I totally disagree with Amenhotep III being depicted as light skinned. Amenhotep III has the MOST black African depictions of ANY time in Egypt, with his statues OFTEN having him depicted with LARGE lips. Akhenaten possibly exaggerated his OWN portraits due to this feature he inherited. So how do we get someone who is so light?
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Well I can't speak for the others, but notice that I said "the most accurate", and not accurate.

You have to admit, whether or not the guy is light-skinned or not, he beats Yul Brynner or worse Charleton Heston! LOL
 

---

Posted by walklikeanegyptian (Member # 8246) on :
 
LOL i wonder what our clueless poster Horemheb here would think if he saw that Denzel Washington is playing Horemheb in that movie?!! LMAO!!!
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
At least Denzel is closer in appearance to the real thing.




 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Speaking of which, did you guys see the latest Discovery program about KV63?

They showed scenes of dramatizations showing Tut's allegged mother Kiya as well as past dramatizations from past programs like Thutmose and Akhenaton and all the actors were black.

It seems Discovery is starting to get with reality. We might have to thank our old frien Borg for that.
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
Sami Bouajila is not "mulatto". He is a Tunisian native-very classic features for a North African.

Milad Sourial aka Khamsin is from a very old family of Saïte and western desert stock of Upper Egypt. Khamsin will portray Amenhotep III.

Saïd Taghmaoui is also of Egyptian Saïte descent with an Arab mother.


The character Horemheb was born in Lower Egypt but is of Bodi (North Central Ethiopian) origins.

The character Suti-Medjay is from one of Sudan's many vassal kingdoms.

These actors will make a realistic representation of the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians.
 

---

Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
Sami Bouajila is not "mulatto". He is a Tunisian native-very classic features for a North African.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
Dammit, I thought this was a real movie being made...

---

? This is an actual major motion picture project. There are three stories in the trilogy. The first of these is Goddess of the Sun. This is followed by The Prophets of Amen. The last film is entitled "i".
 

---

Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
 
^^This would be epic, but there's still no information about it on imdb. Where did you receive your information from and when should we expect production to end, IF what you say is true..
 

---

Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Wow, I'm stunned!!

Is this casting for real?!!

I knew they had Halle Berry and the other mixed-dude as Akhenaton but I didn't know about all the other characters!

This is perhaps the most accurate portrayal of Ancient Egypt by Hollywood ever made!!

The question is how will the mainstream public react to such a casting??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sundiata:
^^This would be epic, but there's still no information about it on imdb. Where did you receive your information from and when should we expect production to end, IF what you say is true..

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:


You have to admit, whether or not the guy is light-skinned or not, he beats Yul Brynner or worse Charleton Heston! LOL

---

..or Billy Bob Thornton.
 

---

Posted by Nebsen (Member # 13728) on :
 
If this is a joke, it is a joke with a point.The time is near, for such a film project to happen, before most of us on this forum, leave this earth ! So let it be written , so let it be done !
 

---

Posted by Nebsen (Member # 13728) on :
 
It would be great if Wesley Snipes & Alfrey Woodard could be included in this film, they are both very aware & conscience individuals
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
I wish that I could share more but as the project is in development that's not possible. You will be reading alot about the project in the next month or so. If you look up Halle Berry Nefertiti or Marc Forster Nefertiti you may be able to glean some more information...
I'm the author.
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 

Amenhotep


A few thoughts I can share with you, and ones which may prove insightful to many of you here follow:

The first issue has to do with Egypt and history.
Early Egyptologists were from Europe. Many of the best known archeologists specializing on Egyptian history were Victorians. I don't think anyone would argue that Victorian society had a tendency to be both racist and chauvinistic. Subsequently, my history that is, Egyptian history as it was sysnthesized by this generation was tainted a bit.
Certain prejudices and presuppositional biases continue on to this day. But let us be candid.
Afrocentricism is an appendange of Eurocentricsm.
Both camps are mired in a world view that is only black and white. Europe is a small continent populated by a diversity of widely different ethnicities. Africa is a much larger continent with four times the diversity of ethnic morphotypes. There is more genetic diveristy within the continent of Africa- that is between different African populations than between any other gene groups scattered around the globe.

This preconception with 'light-skinned' and 'dark-skinned' has a tendency to obscure the greater topics- the history of humanity - the roles of women and the great cooperation and artistic expression between widely divergent cultures -these were hallmarks of civilization.
They still are really. When people argue about the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians,they are generally not familiar with the racial makeup of Eastern Africa much less Northern Africa. The people that believe that the ancient Egyptians were obsessed with being white or black is false naturally. Most Egyptians continue to identify themselves by their religion, region, clan or tribal affinities. They do not really comprehend the western obsession with classifying people in tiny anectdated boxes. '

If one opens their minds to the naturalistic philosophies and artistic expression of the ancient people of the region and places value in the words and deeds of these peoples, the issue of colour vanishes altogether.
I think many of you will appreciate the great attention to detail we have included in this project. The Egyptian army is made up of different battalions and troops of widely different ethnicities. The Fort Buhen Troops are of one dark brown ethnicity known as the Irthet. Other troops within the Egyptian army are Wawat, Dinka and Saite etc. Each division is made obvious by facial features, face paint, weaponry and regalia.
We are obviously celebrating the great ethnic diversity of 18th dynasty Egypt- not reducing it to short-sighted Eurocentric notions.

Secondly, another issue worth discussing is the lack of good work written specifically for actors of colour. I enjoyed the Lord of the Rings trilogy very much. But it was pretty shocking how this maek believe world couldn't include a single dark-skinned extra. Even the hobbits were Western European- it is the sort of thing we come to expect from Hollywood. I think Daman Wayans said it best when he stated rather reasonably that the situation is dire. Even though everything is makebelieve the ariters and directors cant make believe that people of colour could be doctors or lawyers or people in a coffee shop for that matter. It is really obvious that the writers and directors have racial issues. If they didn't these people would be fairly represented. They/We are not. Thusly, I am greatly honoured to write and develop such an exciting project- one that enlists the contributions from many underutilized talents.

I specifically wrote parts for a few of my favorite actors that work very little. Women have a particularly difficult time in Hollywood. If an actor is over 40 and female they have a difficult time. If they are over 25 and of colour they are going to have an even more difficult time of it.

Caucasian actresses pop up every year and garner covers and instant recognition fame. But great talents like Tantoo Cardinal and Cicely Tyson are overlooked all too often. Stacey Dash is another actor that know one seems to know what to do with as is Halle Berry. Halle can make mountains move because she is smart, dedicated and blessed with an almost supernatural beauty. But we can all readily appreciate how some of the projects she stars in don't really suit her. The reason?
Very few of these scripts are specifically written for women of colour.

Lastly, one doesn't need to be a racist to write parts for women of colour to exclusion of Caucasian actresses. One simply has to open up their world view and create worlds where people of different ethnicites and races exist and evolve- that is we adapt to our challenges just like Caucasians do. The major difference is that we people of colour tend to have many more challenges than the average Caucasian might have. A good third of that challenge will be the willful ignorance of other people of colour that subconsiously feel a need to stifle the growth of those around them.

We are entering a time in space when not utilizing your power will be viewed as criminal.
Have a good long look at the Ethiopian civilization and ask yourself why so little is known about it? So little is ever taught.
We allow people to make light of the plight of the
masses of starving people in Ethiopia. We refuse to acknowledge them in our thoughts and prayers.
When you see a child of Darfur or Somalia or Ethiopia an orphan that has lost her parents and siblings for no good reason at all- you may be inspired as I have to include them in your world view. These stories as I've written of them are
from and for the Old World. From the great history of the ancients perhaps we will transform this guiless, materialistic and violent reality we live in today.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ LOL "Tainted" is an understatement. Since European conceptions of 'race' began in the 1800s, African history has been distorted and warped into one big racist lie. Of course Western scholarship has come a long way since then, and alot of things have changed.

Science has shown 'race' does not truly exist but is a purely social and subjective concept. The reason why is that the very premise of race is that a population with a certain lineage will possess certain physical characterstics. Physical anthropology has debunked this notion and recently genetics has blown it out completely despite what some old throwbacks say.

Here is an anthropological primer:

Does the statue below depict "caucasian" features?

quote:

---

Cranial features:
The human phenotypic trait that holds the greatest diversity is cranial
morphology. Because of this fact, cranial features can at times be
misleading if not taken into proper context. For example, for a long time
features like long narrow faces and narrow noses have been associated with
“caucasian” or “caucasoid” people even though such features are present in
populations throughout the globe from Africa to the Americas. The same can
be said about so-called “negroid” features such as broad faces and noses
which are also not just confined to Africans but various peoples in Asia,
the Pacific etc.

Which is why we have studies like this:

J. Edwards, A. Leathers, et al.
...based on Howell’s sampling Fordisc 2.0 authors state that "there are no
races, only populations," yet it is clear that Howell was intent on
providing known groups that would be distributed among the continental
"racial" groups.
We tested the accuracy and effectiveness of Fordisc 2.0 using twelve cranial
measurements from a homogeneous population from the X-Group period of
Sudanese Nubia (350CE-550CE). When the Fordisc program classified the adult
X-Group crania, only 51 (57.3%) of 89 individuals were classified within
groups from Africa. Others were placed in such diverse groups as
Polynesian (11.24%), European (7.86%), Japanese (4.49%), Native American
(3.37%), Peruvian (3.36%), Australian (1.12), Tasmanian (1.12%), and
Melanesian (1.12%). The implications of these findings suggest that
classifying populations, whether by geography or by "race", is not
morphologically or biologically accurate because of the wide variation even
in homogeneous populations.

And...

Forensic Misclassification of
Ancient Nubian Crania:
Implications for Assumptions
about Human Variation -April 2005, Current Anthropology:

It is well known that human biological variation is principally clinal
(i.e., structured as gradients) and not racial (i.e., structured as a small
number of fairly discrete
groups). We have shown that for a temporally and geographically homogeneous
East African population, the most widely used “racial”
program fails to identify the skeletal material accurately. The
assignment of skeletal racial origin is based principally upon stereotypical
features found most frequently in the most geographically distant
populations. While this is useful in some contexts (for example, sorting
skeletal material of largely West African ancestry
from skeletal material of largely Western European ancestry), it fails to
identify populations that originate elsewhere and misrepresents fundamental
patterns of human biological diversity.

These exact same mistakes were made in classifying Egyptian skulls and is
also the reason you hear these old studies speak of a percentage of
“Caucasoid” and even a percentage of “mongoloid” skulls!

Jean Hiernaux
The People of Africa(Peoples of the World Series) 1975
The oldest remains of Homo sapiens sapiens found in East Africa were
associated with an industry having similarities with the Capsian. It has
been called Upper Kenyan Capsian, although its derivation from the North
African Capsian is far from certain. At Gamble's Cave in Kenya, five human
skeletons were associated with a late phase of the industry, Upper Kenya
Capsian C, which contains pottery. A similar associationis presumed for a
skeleton found at Olduvai, which resembles those from Gamble's Cave. The
date of Upper Kenya Capsian C is not precisely known (an earlier phase from
Prospect Farm on Eburru Mountain close to Gamble's Cave has been dated to
about 8000 BC); but the presence of pottery indicates a rather later date,
perhaps around 400 BC. The skeletons are of very tall people. They had
long, narrow heads, and relatively long, narrow faces. The nose was of
medium width; and prognathism, when present, was restricted to the alveolar,
or tooth-bearing, region......all their features can be found in several
living populations of East Africa, like the Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi, who
are very dark skinned and differ greatly from Europeans in a number of body
proportions.............
From the foregoing, it is tempting to locate the area of differentiation of
these people in the interior of East Africa. There is every reason to
believe that they are ancestral to the living 'Elongated East Africans'.
Neither of these populations, fossil and modern, should be considered to be
closely related to the populations of Europe and western Asia.

claims that Caucasoid peoples once lived in eastern Africa have been
shown to be wrong, - JO Vogel, Precolonial Africa.

So features like narrow faces and noses do NOT indicate foreign ancestry or
‘admixture’.

Fulani (West African)


Somali (East African)
[img]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40489000/jpg/_40489201_ghedi203ok_bbc
.jpg[/img]

Egyptian (North African)


Tutsi (Central African)


Ironically, another trait all of these people above share in common besides
facial features is skeletal structure of their bodies. Their body structure
has been called “super-negroid” indicating their extra-tropical

adapted bodies compared to stereotypical blacks of West Africa who only have
plain “negroid” builds. This is another indication that these people
definitely have NO non-African ancestry!

Also, just because someone happens to have the same features as those you
consider ‘true blacks (negroes)’ does not mean they are even African. As
seen by this Andamanese person below.

Southeast Asian


Jean Hiernaux The People of Africa 1975
p.53, 54

"In sub-Saharan Africa, many anthropological characters show a wide range
of population means or frequencies. In some of them, the whole world range
is covered in the sub-continent. Here live the shortest and the tallest
human populations, the one with the highest and the one with the lowest
nose, the one with the thickest and the one with the thinnest lips in the
world. In this area, the range of the average nose widths covers 92 per cent
of the world range:

only a narrow range of extremely low means are absent from the African
record. Means for head diameters cover about 80 per cent of the world
range; 60 per cent is the corresponding value for a variable once
cherished by physical anthropologists, the cephalic index, or ratio of the
head width to head length expressed as a percentage....."

So all this talk of "races" and “mixed-races” because of certain looks is
downright silly...
And why there really are no 'races' because most of human diversity *comes
from Africans*.

---

quote:

---

Also of relevance--- the famous African (Somali) Supermodel, Iman:



She was one of the first generation of high-profile black supermodels and although attitudes have changed since 1975, she insists that the fashion industry is inherently racist. Then, she was treated as some kind of exotic alien. 'Oh, you're so beautiful,' was one comment, 'you must be half-white.' Her reply? 'I don't have a drop of white blood in me. I'm beautiful because I am black and I am Somali.'

Note the similarities between Iman and the reconstruction of the mummy alleged to be Nefertiti:



Ironically enough, Iman even portrayed Nefertiti:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
I think many of you will appreciate the great attention to detail we have included in this project.

---

quote:

---

Maahes:
The Egyptian army is made up of different battalions and troops of widely different ethnicities.

---

quote:

---

The Fort Buhen Troops are of one dark brown ethnicity known as the Irthet. Other troops within the Egyptian army are Wawat, Dinka and Saite etc. Each division is made obvious by facial features, face paint, weaponry and regalia.

---

quote:

---

We are obviously celebrating the great ethnic diversity of 18th dynasty Egypt- not reducing it to short-sighted Eurocentric notions.

---

quote:

---

Afrocentricism is an appendange of Eurocentricsm.

---

quote:

---

Most Egyptians continue to identify themselves by their religion, region, clan or tribal affinities. They do not really comprehend the western obsession with classifying people in tiny anectdated boxes. '

---

quote:

---

This preconception with 'light-skinned' and 'dark-skinned' has a tendency to obscure the greater topics- the history of humanity
[…]
If one opens their minds to the naturalistic philosophies and artistic expression of the ancient people of the region and places value in the words and deeds of these peoples, the issue of colour vanishes altogether.

---

quote:

---

From the great history of the ancients perhaps we will transform this guiless, materialistic and violent reality we live in today.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
By the way, I'm not black or of African descent but I too notice the irreputable damage racism has done (especially to a few individuals who post in this forum with things like Afro-Iranians and Afro-Celts)!! LOL

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

The first issue has to do with Egypt and history.
Early Egyptologists were from Europe. Many of the best known archeologists specializing on Egyptian history were Victorians. I don't think anyone would argue that Victorian society had a tendency to be both racist and chauvinistic. Subsequently, my history that is, Egyptian history as it was sysnthesized by this generation was tainted a bit.
Certain prejudices and presuppositional biases continue on to this day. But let us be candid.
Afrocentricism is an appendange of Eurocentricsm.
Both camps are mired in a world view that is only black and white. Europe is a small continent populated by a diversity of widely different ethnicities. Africa is a much larger continent with four times the diversity of ethnic morphotypes. There is more genetic diveristy within the continent of Africa- that is between different African populations than between any other gene groups scattered around the globe.

---

You are correct. Although one might agree with Afrocentrism. Afrocentrism is a view that centers on Africa just as Eurocentrism is a view that centers on Europe. Would it not be better to apply Afrocentrism with regards to how Egypt is viewed since it is an African civilization? That said, you are however right that Afrocentrism was first created as a reaction to Eurocentrism. As such radical Afrocentrism is indeed nothing more than a reflection of radical Eurocentrism as exhibited in this forum by a couple of posters.

quote:

---

This preconception with 'light-skinned' and 'dark-skinned' has a tendency to obscure the greater topics- the history of humanity - the roles of women and the great cooperation and artistic expression between widely divergent cultures -these were hallmarks of civilization.
They still are really. When people argue about the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians,they are generally not familiar with the racial makeup of Eastern Africa much less Northern Africa. The people that believe that the ancient Egyptians were obsessed with being white or black is false naturally. Most Egyptians continue to identify themselves by their religion, region, clan or tribal affinities. They do not really comprehend the western obsession with classifying people in tiny anectdated boxes.

---

Of course, but then again that is the issue that plauges the study of Egypt no doubt because among the greatest civilizations of the ancient world it is one located in the African continent. And it is an issue sadly enough, we face all too often here in this forum!

quote:

---

If one opens their minds to the naturalistic philosophies and artistic expression of the ancient people of the region and places value in the words and deeds of these peoples, the issue of colour vanishes altogether.

---

quote:

---

I think many of you will appreciate the great attention to detail we have included in this project. The Egyptian army is made up of different battalions and troops of widely different ethnicities. The Fort Buhen Troops are of one dark brown ethnicity known as the Irthet. Other troops within the Egyptian army are Wawat, Dinka and Saite etc. Each division is made obvious by facial features, face paint, weaponry and regalia.

---

quote:

---

We are obviously celebrating the great ethnic diversity of 18th dynasty Egypt- not reducing it to short-sighted Eurocentric notions.

---

quote:

---

Secondly, another issue worth discussing is the lack of good work written specifically for actors of colour. I enjoyed the Lord of the Rings trilogy very much. But it was pretty shocking how this maek believe world couldn't include a single dark-skinned extra. Even the hobbits were Western European- it is the sort of thing we come to expect from Hollywood. I think Daman Wayans said it best when he stated rather reasonably that the situation is dire. Even though everything is makebelieve the ariters and directors cant make believe that people of colour could be doctors or lawyers or people in a coffee shop for that matter. It is really obvious that the writers and directors have racial issues. If they didn't these people would be fairly represented. They/We are not. Thusly, I am greatly honoured to write and develop such an exciting project- one that enlists the contributions from many underutilized talents.

---

Well what do you expect from the movie based on the fantasy of Tolkien (an old white guy) which is further based on Nordic mythology. LOL The only dark people or people of color in the movie were the human allies of Sauron who were Arab-like and what,.. the demonic Urukhai who are 'black-like'?!

quote:

---

I specifically wrote parts for a few of my favorite actors that work very little. Women have a particularly difficult time in Hollywood. If an actor is over 40 and female they have a difficult time. If they are over 25 and of colour they are going to have an even more difficult time of it.

---

quote:

---

Caucasian actresses pop up every year and garner covers and instant recognition fame. But great talents like Tantoo Cardinal and Cicely Tyson are overlooked all too often. Stacey Dash is another actor that know one seems to know what to do with as is Halle Berry. Halle can make mountains move because she is smart, dedicated and blessed with an almost supernatural beauty. But we can all readily appreciate how some of the projects she stars in don't really suit her. The reason?
Very few of these scripts are specifically written for women of colour.

---

quote:

---

Lastly, one doesn't need to be a racist to write parts for women of colour to exclusion of Caucasian actresses. One simply has to open up their world view and create worlds where people of different ethnicites and races exist and evolve- that is we adapt to our challenges just like Caucasians do. The major difference is that we people of colour tend to have many more challenges than the average Caucasian might have. A good third of that challenge will be the willful ignorance of other people of colour that subconsiously feel a need to stifle the growth of those around them.

---

quote:

---

We are entering a time in space when not utilizing your power will be viewed as criminal.
Have a good long look at the Ethiopian civilization and ask yourself why so little is known about it? So little is ever taught.
We allow people to make light of the plight of the
masses of starving people in Ethiopia. We refuse to acknowledge them in our thoughts and prayers.
When you see a child of Darfur or Somalia or Ethiopia an orphan that has lost her parents and siblings for no good reason at all- you may be inspired as I have to include them in your world view. These stories as I've written of them are
from and for the Old World. From the great history of the ancients perhaps we will transform this guiless, materialistic and violent reality we live in today.

---

That is why it us up to people to take it upon themselves and do something about their own dilemma, whether it be history and scholarship for Africans and people of African descent and/or the active reformation of Hollywood.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ By the way Maahes, what do you think of this French animated movie?:


 

---

Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
 
Maahes, also, please ignore my previous suggestion of Billy Bob Thornton as a possible actor, it's just that I thought it was funny that it was even suggested before( it was suggested by alTakruri on the Nile Valley Forum lol).

By the way, you have some EXCELLENT morals and values.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

Yes, I've heard! You never even hear about female actors of color over 40, unless it a 'black movie'!

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Caucasian actresses pop up every year and garner covers and instant recognition fame. But great talents like Tantoo Cardinal and Cicely Tyson are overlooked all too often. Stacey Dash is another actor that know one seems to know what to do with as is Halle Berry. Halle can make mountains move because she is smart, dedicated and blessed with an almost supernatural beauty. But we can all readily appreciate how some of the projects she stars in don't really suit her. The reason?
Very few of these scripts are specifically written for women of colour.

---

So I guess this is where you come in. How unfortunate there aren't many others in the 'biz' who are like you.

---

quote:

---

One of the most obviously racist things about Hollywood movies that nobody but perhaps blacks want to address is how come whenever a movie with a predominantly black cast is shown, it is viewed or even dismissed as a "black movie" as if it appeals to blacks only; yet practically all movies with predominantly white casts are viewed simply as movies for all?! It all stems from the usual racist view of racializing blacks and other people of color but not whites themselves, and yes the same is true with movies of predominantly Asian or hispanic casting. Perhaps the only movie I could think of that was an exception was 'Apocalypto', but notice how Mayan civilization was demonized and denigrated!

Face the long time fact: Hollywood is racist.

YOU may not be, but it's going be a long while before people like you can change the whole industry.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SEEKING:
Halle Berry might have some problems with Hollywood.


http://www.spreadit.org/2007/10/23/halle-makes-berry-anti-semitic-nose-joke-on-jay-leno/

---

I heard about that. But it was meant as a joke and she quickly apologized
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 

It's a quarter to eight time to get it straight.
I joked that if Iman played Nefertiti then
either Eddie Murphy or David Bowie would
be her Pharaoh.

It was Rasol who camped out on Billy Bob (what a name).

Anyway, it was all good fun, son! Thanks for the smiles.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Willing Thinker {What Box}:
Maahes, also, please ignore my previous suggestion of Billy Bob Thornton as a possible actor, it's just that I thought it was funny that it was even suggested before( it was suggested by alTakruri on the Nile Valley Forum lol).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by King_Scorpion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SEEKING:
Halle Berry might have some problems with Hollywood.


http://www.spreadit.org/2007/10/23/halle-makes-berry-anti-semitic-nose-joke-on-jay-leno/

---

I heard about that. But it was meant as a joke and she quickly apologized

---

I find it funny that they make such a big deal over a remark like that yet not a peep is heard over the irreputable damage Hollywood has done and is still doing today to blacks and other people of color, even though Hollywood is supposedly owned and run by 'Jews'.
 

---

Posted by SuWeDi (Member # 12519) on :
 
Maahes aka Milad Sourial aka Khamsin write this in another forum:

-"As my own family is from Mut (Dahkla) and is somewhere between six and three thousand years old depending on what set of data is accepted- I have to personally take this matter up or bite my tongue.

We are not "black" but are indigenous north east Africans."

-"To my knowledge there was never a single Black ( as in Dinka, Fur or Nyala peoples of Niger, Sudan and Libya) King that ruled in Egypt.

Nor were there many Negroes ( Round Headed) even present in Dynastic Egypt until fairly late in history."

and also...

-"I am acknowledging the great people of Darfur who are truly BLACK."

-"...I am a Red African as have been all my ancestors including those that have been misidentified by well meaning "scholars" that mean to redefine the continent of Africa by invisible lines meant to support antequated theories of cultural imperialism and directional evolution."

-"Anyone who has eyes and has actually studied the human being in question's feaures will recognize the very characteristic attributes of specific East African races. Iman and Anwar Sadat come easily to mind."

-"In Europe and the USA the world is white and black or yellow, all the red people have been shoved into the sea. But we indigenous Egyptians still exist and we are neither black nor white nor anything in between. We cannot exist for no one has acknowledged that we ever existed."


He change his mind since?...hum...
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Are you saying he is a fraud. Or another Hawass!! Not black but African.

quote:

---

Originally posted by SuWeDi:
Maahes aka Milad Sourial aka Khamsin write this in another forum:

-"As my own family is from Mut (Dahkla) and is somewhere between six and three thousand years old depending on what set of data is accepted- I have to personally take this matter up or bite my tongue.

We are not "black" but are indigenous north east Africans."

-"To my knowledge there was never a single Black ( as in Dinka, Fur or Nyala peoples of Niger, Sudan and Libya) King that ruled in Egypt.

Nor were there many Negroes ( Round Headed) even present in Dynastic Egypt until fairly late in history."

and also...

-"I am acknowledging the great people of Darfur who are truly BLACK."

-"...I am a Red African as have been all my ancestors including those that have been misidentified by well meaning "scholars" that mean to redefine the continent of Africa by invisible lines meant to support antequated theories of cultural imperialism and directional evolution."

-"Anyone who has eyes and has actually studied the human being in question's feaures will recognize the very characteristic attributes of specific East African races. Iman and Anwar Sadat come easily to mind."

-"In Europe and the USA the world is white and black or yellow, all the red people have been shoved into the sea. But we indigenous Egyptians still exist and we are neither black nor white nor anything in between. We cannot exist for no one has acknowledged that we ever existed."


He change his mind since?...hum...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Are you saying he is a fraud. Or another Hawass!! Not black but African.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Are you saying he is a fraud. Or another Hawass!! Not black but African.

---

Apparenlty so, and that he's BUSTED!!

---

I told you guys not to get too excited just to be let down...
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
Don't over react. This comment is being taken out of context. The topic was the "black pharaoh" who happens to a recent ancestor of one our tribal clans in the Western Desert. The presupposition that this pharaoh was "black" ignores the historical socio-political issues of the day. Ethnic minorities indigenous to Egypt were obliged to migrate into Abysnnia/Eritrea during the 19th dynasty. These populations became naturalized in what had been Egyptian satellite colonies within Sudan and further South. At the time- the 19th Dynasty- Ramessides were in the process of ethnically cleansing the sepats in much the same manner as the Hyksos. Western Desert Indigene were widely considered Libyan even though we had always lived in the Western Desert.

There are truly black people, like the Dinka and truly brown people like the Fur (Darfur). We love and respect these cultures. This is a point I made on the forum I've been quoted from. We appreciate their respective histories and incredible basket weaveing, their pottery, dog and cattle breeds. They were the gold people- the Nuba. Some were even indigenous to Southern Libya. But we are not these people. While we are also purely African, we are RED Africans. We are not identical to the East African ethnic clans with long narrow faces and thin noses and lips like Anwar Sadat, Iman and TutankhAmun. My tribal clan is square jawed and red skinned. Not greater nor lesser just pieces of a whole.
It is my opinion that racism is so deeply ingrained in Westerners that one cannot even open dialogue without innocent, well-meaning people becoming emotional and less than objective about the topic. New Issues are born where there aught not be any.

While my people came from Dahkhla and Kharga, I was raised in Europe and the USA. On these continents I fully identify myself as an African ethnic who is American as a natiobnality. Most people that look at me in USA assume i am black or mixed race. I have many interactions with American blacks who have a difficult time accepting my claims of being African. They will often insist I must be 'mixed'. I am not anything but one hundred percent African.

Last issue, American blacks are not phenotypically black- at least not the majority of the people I know are. Neither are the majority of the Ethiopians I know and visit nor are the Eritreans-
I travel these countries year after year.

We Africans come in a number of beautiful colours.
Black is included. But until you have actually seen a blue black Dinka or a purple black Fur you haven't seen a black skinned person. For that matter, people in Southern India are often if not generally much darker than the average American black and even darker than the average Ethiopian.

My original posting was an attempt to get the Egyptofiles to open their minds to the issue that lines on a map do not make race lines.
I am an African as are each and every one of my ancestors. I cannot claim to share the exact same evolutionary history as the Dinka or the Fur nor can they claim ours. Nor would either of us- be3cause we have been living side by side for a very long time. If one goes to Siwa in Norhtern Western Egypt or Kharga in Southern Western Egypt they will be delighted to find a peoples - different peoples mind you that are either blue black, purple black, chestnut brown, red brown, ruddy taupe with rusty blonde hair and light eyes- blue black with ice blue eyes- and these ethnic types are generally speaking true to very specific villages. They are not mixing because marriage between tribes or clans is not nor has it ever been commonly accepted. We joke that our own family tree looks like a telephone pole.

We treat one another as equals and our children grow up in an environment that celebrates the great diversity of the Sahara's people.
We love one another. We trust one another and we have empathy for the respective trials and tribulations of our neighbors.
That said, calling an ancient lineage a "black pharaoh's descendants" is inadequate and does not adequately or responsibly describe us.


To some what is inferred is that we descendants of Herihor or Taharaqa are illegitimate- and like the Fur (Darfur)we have already expereinced terrible genocides in history. Cultural imperialism has raised its head any number of times over the last several centuries. Our history is an ancient one after all.
But my friends, I am African through and through.
An African that happens to be very typical ethnically speaking- of Upper Egyptians and Western Desert Indigene in general.
Just because I make a point to distinguish the cultural history of the venerable black skinned peoples and I am only speaking very narrowly of indigenous truly black-skinned peoples of Libya, Sudan and Somalia- does not make me an apologist for racism. Open your heart and your mind and celebrate cultural diversity.

ww.washingtonpost.com/.../sudan/sudan.htm
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
As for "Princess of the Sun" - it sucks rotten old vulture eggs. This is the first I've heard of it.
Obviously we have a problem but changing the title of the film is not that big of an issue. I'm still ticked off to learn about it- but maybe its a good thing- Lots of people we find it interesting it just sucks that our efforts to accurately represent history will be doused by the unauthentic entertainment fluff.. That said, I have work to do.
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
I find it interesting that the author of a book BLACK PHARAOH which is widely regarded as awful by the descendants of this generation in history has beat me to the finish line in producing a film about a topic- the 18th dynasty- our film is barely in the hamper after six years of development. It takes a great deal more might get a 200 million dollar budget greenlighted than a cartoon budget. I suppose there is something karmic about this happenstance.
I'm certain Goddess will be remembered as more than misleading entertainment.Its vastly more substantial on a spiritual and sociological level-
keep your fingers and toes crossed.
 

---

Posted by SuWeDi (Member # 12519) on :
 
Hello Maahes!

What you dont no is that I have in my own family many people who look exacly like you and other who look like Alek Wek or iman (like my little sister, and yes is not a joke!).

I'm Cameroonian. In Cameroon we really have almos all kind of "black" african. What you call "red" african, for me is just one "black" or "brown" variety.

Question: You really associate with Halle Berry project or you do your own think alone?

PS: Excuse my bad english, I speak better french (^_^)
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
I've been to Cameroon. Yours is an incredible country. The International Wildlife Conservation Society is near and dear to my heart. ICWS has been developing an eco-tourism park in your country for several years now. I am very proud to contribute in every way I can to this ongoing project. And yes, he people of Cameroon are a diverse lot. Not like us desert dwellers locked off for centuries at a time from neighboring peoples. The jungle is a much more equitable place for human populations than our remote oases in the great sand sea. I mean to say that our populations at least in the Western Desert Tribal Lands are fairly homogenous as far each respective group appears -I think their blood work has thoroughly supported this notion- that the indigene of the Western Desert are an old family tree unto themselves. Some are descendants of Maahes Caste Amenist sect members. Others are descendants of the recent slave trade that carried SubSaharan Africans from Senegal across the desert through Kharga and on to Djebuti...
..oh Africa our past is stained red with the blood o f every thing but empathy.
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Maahes, could you explain something please.

1) Who are the original populations of the Western Desert

2) Where did they come from

3) What did they look like

4) When did they get there

In my opinion the modern populations of the Western Desert are diverse, but that diversity has come largely during and since the dynastic period and that the original populations of these areas from 7,000 or more years ago were indeed black.

I don't understand how you can claim anything otherwise, as the evidence is there for everyone to see. People talk about diversity and then act as if blacks are not part of that diversity, when indeed blacks are the aboriginal populations of this region, even if other diverse groups have been there for thousands of years. Therefore, trying to separate out blacks as separate and not indigenous, welcome, wanted or native to this area is absolutely odd and why I asked the question.

Original populations of the Western Desert:

http://www.fjexpeditions.com/frameset/rockart.htm

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/gilfkebir1.htm

The western Deserts have diverse populations, but all of this singling out blacks as somehow not representative of this diversity or separate from it smacks not of diversity but an attempt to segregate black Africans out of areas they have been in longer than any other group that currently occupies the Western Sahara.
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
Ok- we certainly are indigenous and we are without a doubt, African. We are however, not - wait - my specific tribal clan- there are eighteen original tribes within that clan are not and have never been of the black rock- that is hewn from black rock as our ancestors believed the truly BLACK skinned peoples were. This is hard for Americans to comprehend but what they term as BLACK is not what Africans consider BLACK. Denzell Washington in Africa would not be considered BLACK. He would be recognized as African but a BROWN ethnicity. In USA Denzell Washington is certainly embraced as a BLACK person but that is because alot of Eurocentric/Afrocentric people are missing the bus on ethnic diversity. They believe that people that are not white must be black. When in fact, there are so many different kinds of people in the world. Why limit yourself to such anectdated parameters? The old bigoted Victorians couldn't distinguish between a Saite and a so called Nubian.
They couldnt tell the difference between a sharp eared Saharan Lion and a round eared Subsaharan Lion- they didn't distinguish between ethnicites of so called Nubians- the Wawat - the Yam, the Irthet the Dinka the MAzoi- these were all termed Negroes by Early Egyptologists. By own grand uncle Ziko Gonneim an indigenous Egyptian could distinguish them but because of his ethnicity and nationality the European Egyptologists marginalized his contributions. They failed to see the significance of his assertions. They saw a subsaharn Africa and an Egypt.
We Western Desert peoples are purely African. There is a percentage of peoples from Libya originally who have lived in the Western Desert of Egypt since the most recent slave trade from Senegal to Kharga. They escaped their Arab kidnappers and vanished into the desert-they were accepted with empathy by indigenous Western Desert Peoples who already knew these noble people - we used their baskets to transport our food. We used their ceramics to hold our oil. Now they are naturalized in the Western Desert. During predynastic days the native peoples were largely Pygmoid very similar to the Kung! Bushmen of South Africa. They remain in Siwa- a good percentage of them are still there. The next group like our family originated in the region between Kharga and Dahkhla- we later migrated north to Bahiriya and Karnak- and a few centuries later we chased from Bahiriya into Abysinnia and Siwa by Assyrian enabled Ramesides. Herihor brought matrilinear Egypt back to the mother land.Perhaps we were more thoroughly Ethiopianized if that is a word at that point but this is rather doubtful given the matrilinear laws of our tribal marriages.
Yes we have wooly hair and broad noses. We have dark skin and broad shoulders. We are however not the beautiful black skinned Dinka nor are we the Fur who almost look purple in the distance. We adore them but we are not them. We are siblings and cousins. Our mother is Africa but the desert has separated us very early on.
 

---

Posted by Nebsen (Member # 13728) on :
 
Tambay Obenson, "Calling For Autonomous Black Owned Film Companies".NPR "News & Notes" 10/25/07

Those on this forum that are interested should check this out! You can access thru internet.
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
What RACE?








 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 

We are all African. We are each and every one us indigenous Egyptians. I hope that you can open your heart and your mind enough to let us in. Please don't make the mistakes of the Victorian era and paint us with too broad a brush stroke. We are diverse and our history is ancient. All of Africa is ancient- so ancient we do it no justice lumping it all together. Each region and i mean eco-geological region is distinctive and has its own ethnic makeup. This is how it has always been. I doubt anyone made much of it until colonialization began to perceive us Africans as infinately inferior. They needed a pecking order to line us up social Darwin style.
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Hey Maahes, nobody is trying to you us out. I am certainly not. Africans have never been raving racists running around the world in the name of black skin and black power.

The point I was making is that the Libyan Sahara is diverse. That says it all and is about as open as you can get. This diversity is part of the history of the region, as well as much of the world, where various cultures and people have met, traded, clashed, mixed and mingled for many thousands of years. However, ethnic conflicts and struggles have taken place in the Sahara, Nile Valley and elsewhere involving many different groups and there is no doubt that black Africans have indeed been on the losing end of many of these struggles in the last 500 years or so. Even with that, I doubt any black Africans of any complexion is trying to erase any diversity in parts of Africa, purely because of skin color (however in terms of religion and phony ethnic ideologies that is a different issue). Africans aren't racists. That is nonsense. The point was and still is that diversity means just that, diversity and that black Africans do not need to feel ashamed that they have inhabited Africa for upwards of 200,000 years and no one on earth can claim to have beat black Africans to Africa. I am against using these ideas of "diversity" in features and culture to pretend that somehow black Africans aren't part of the original populations of these areas, going back tens of thousands of years, which is undeniable. Black Africans have been in the Western Sahara since before there was an Arab on this planet and the existence of blacks in these regions predates any sort of slavery and those regions have always been diverse because black Africans are diverse all over Africa from short to tall, skinny to fat. It is an oversimplification to say that "one" group of Africans is the epitome of a black African, while others aren't. That is a form of color gradient bias which is as bad an heinous in trying to create distinct identities for each gradient of brown skin as the idea of black and white and is certainly ridiculous considering that such diverse features are INHERENT in blacks in the first place. Black Africans are diverse and that diversity includes various shades and shapes and sizes. And on top of that Africa is diverse, with many different various ethnic groups identities and features adding to an already diverse population, due to the history if migrations and interactions in some parts of Africa.

And do be clear, black means person who is of darker complexion, particularly those from Africa and includes many shades of brown. It is not a term unique to America and the history of racism in America does not invalidate the term. Black in America is a way of identifying people by ancestry and separating those of primarily African ancestry, who were supposed to be the bottom rung of society, from those who were of primarily British European ancestry, who were supposed to be the top of the ladder. Skin color was but one of the most visible forms of identifying African ancestry for the purposes of maintaining this hierarchy.
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
What RACE?

---

Where are these images from?
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
Why do you need to ask? They are all members of my family.
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
..and as such purely African- northern eastern Africans- different from other northern eastern Africans that are equally African.
 

---

Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
 
Welcome to Egyptsearch Maahes.
And also nice posts, i agree with most of what you wrote.
 

---

Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
 
I wish your movie the best, Maahes.

Sorry bout that al Takruri

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

It's a quarter to eight time to get it straight.
I joked that if Iman played Nefertiti then
either Eddie Murphy or David Bowie would
be her Pharaoh.

It was Rasol who camped out on Billy Bob (what a name).

Anyway, it was all good fun, son! Thanks for the smiles.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Willing Thinker {What Box}:
Maahes, also, please ignore my previous suggestion of Billy Bob Thornton as a possible actor, it's just that I thought it was funny that it was even suggested before( it was suggested by alTakruri on the Nile Valley Forum lol).

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
..and as such purely African- northern eastern Africans- different from other northern eastern Africans that are equally African.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Our mother is Africa but the desert has separated us very early on.

---

quote:

---

"Lake Malawi, one of the deepest lakes in the world, acts as a rain gauge," said lead scientist Andrew S. Cohen of The University of Arizona in Tucson. "The lake level dropped at least 600 meters (1,968 feet) -- an extraordinary amount of water lost from the lake. This tells us that it was much drier at that time."

He added, "Archaeological evidence shows relatively few signs of human occupation in tropical Africa during the megadrought period."

The new finding provides an ecological explanation for the Out-of-Africa theory that suggests all humans descended from just a few people living in Africa sometime between 150,000 and 70,000 years ago.

"We've got an explanation for why that might have occurred -- tropical Africa was extraordinarily dry about 100,000 years ago," said Cohen, a UA professor of geosciences. "Maybe human populations just crashed."

Other researchers have documented droughts in individual regions of Africa at that time, such as the Kalahari desert expanding north and the Sahel expanding south, he said. "But no one had put it together that those droughts were part of a bigger picture."

Tropical Africa's climate became wetter by 70,000 years ago, a time for which there is evidence of more people in the region and of people moving north. As the population rebounded, people left Africa, Cohen said.

The newly discovered drastic drought also suggests the famous cichlid fishes of Lake Malawi evolved four to eight times slower than previously thought, altering scientists' view of fish evolution in the African Great Lakes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
Boy oh boy. Where to start here? One forum member asked 'why state the obvious'?
I'll ask you to re-read the long thread in its entirety.

I don't think some of you are embracing what I am going about here. You have a directional bias in my opinion. You only see white and black. I attempted, I thought successfuly based on the posts of other forum members, to help you comprehend the genetic and ethnic/cultural diversity within the Western Desert of Egypt where my family has lived for countless centuries.
I will not be insulted by your comments because they read as if you might have been harboring complexes of inferiority.

This thread is about the cultural and ethnic foundations of 18th Dynasty Egypt as it relates to casting of the film franchise "i". Some writers who we can only assume are very young, made some very insensitive comments about some of the cast.
The term Mulatto was used without so much as sigh from anyone but myself. I took umbrage with the term and explained why. The term mulatto is based upon the word mule a sterile hybrid between two species of equids.

Someone wrote in that they thought a "light-skinned" person aught not be playing Amenhotep III. That "light-skinned" person (me) is one hundred percent African. My family has lived in the same valley for centuries and we are African. So you can see it is a bit stupid to ask me why I must explain the obvious. Members of this board demanded I do so.

To move on to the last forum writer's comments, our comrade from Cameroon- what should I say?
These are your thoughts and I cannot be responsible for them.

Quotes from another forum were posted here out of context- in these quotes I am record discussing the problems I have with the term "black pharaoh".

Inspite of the fact that I have repeatedly attempted to describe to you what an actual BLACK person looks like it is not reaching you. My comments were an attempt to help elucidate the issue of ethnicity within the continent of Africa.
We are diverse ethnically and culturally. To describe us either white or black is pointless and Eurocentric/Afrocentric.
My own family suffers from a number of blood disorders and share certain blood types and haplotypes with peoples from Southern Eastern Sudan, Sri Lanka, West India, Eritrea and within certain regions of Ethiopia and Libya.

It could be argued that we ( the above mentioned minorities ) are one anothers closest living relatives. Obviously, everyone originated in Africa but as we can clearly see, the worlds people are diverse in appearance and to a more limited degree genetically.
Peoples closely related to us spread out from Africa and populated Western India and eventually Sri Lanka- these sibling lineages of our ancestors also peopled Libya. Our original ancestors came from Dahkhla/Khargha. Before then- who knows? But judging from the pictographs and rock art, the DNA and haplotypey of our tribal clans we have been in our homeland for at least six thousand years.

Are the peoples of Sri Lanka and Western India also "black"? You are utilizing an antiquated terminology that is chock full of presuppositional biases. The first inhabitants of the Sahara were Paleolithic hunters related most closely to the South African Kung! Bushmen, the Central African Pygmies, the Andammen Island Pygmies, THe New guinea Pygmies, The Tasmanian Pygmies- the Orang Asli of Malaysia. They form one clade. Not only are they not " Black" they form the genetic foundation of all races. The so called- Mongoloid Asiatics descend directly from them as do the so-called Negroes. Proto-Australoids are the Adam in direct relation to the Pygmoid Eve-
So your assumptions about "Black" Africa are willfully ignorant. You are generating false parameters that cannot be born out with hard science.

You follow the obnoxious assumption of Eurocentrics that assume " Black" Africans live only south of the Sahara. You then argue that because the Sahara was a lush rainforest a few thousand years ago, that everyone that lived in Norhtern Africa was thusly a "Black African" before the advent of the aridification cycles that created the great deserts.

The first human populations to live in Northern Africa were Pygmoid. From these Pygmoids evolved Round Headed Negroes that populated Western Africa
and from this same diaspora the Round Headed Asiatics also evolved and at about the same time.

Meanwhile, the pygmies are still their own unique clade of evolutionary novelty. They are not greater than or lesser than any other African but they are the matrilinear ancestors of All Africans and ninety percent of all humans that live on the globe. Proto-Australoids share Nuclear DNA with a great percentage of the extent human population and about ten percent of the world's mitochondrial
DNA (human).

Recombinations between these two ancient human genetic clades resulted in each and every one of our surviving "races" of human kind.

You are talking about the races as the Victorians perceived them. I am a molecular biologist, an anthropologist, an ecosystematist and a writer.

I am not burdened with anectdated precepts of race and culture. You needn't be either.

Getting back to Egypt now, each dynasty had a slightly different ethnic makeup but the majority of the peoples were exclusively Northern or Eastern Afrian with limited migrations from the Near East (Semites/Babylonians) and India (Sahdu/Sahure).
If you really care about the topic read up on the Cattle of East Africa and study their genetics.
You will be fascinated I assure you. Bananas and Cattle arrived from South East Asia thousands and thousands of years ago. Sesame and Millet was carried East along the same routes.
But the Nilotic Africans are quite distinctive as are the Hamitic, Saite and other indigenous East African groups. We cannot lump them into the "Black African" category because to do so over simplifies their evolutionary novelty, their haplotypey and blood groups, their osteology and most significantly, their languages and cultures.

Don't equate my reluctance to describe Egyptians or Ethiopians as "Black"
as some sort of apologist inner-hatred. We are nighbors to Black people and have been for countless Millenium. But they have their own cultural identities and histories. We are all Africans after all. Skin colour is not a litmus test for being from the continent. This is an affectation we are inheriting from a blatantly racist past.

To close, I identify myself as a Black American while in America. I am Black in America because in America I am not white so I must be black. This if fine by me. I love Black music, Black girls, Soul food, and American Black Culture(s).

Regardless, my embrace of everything "Black" confuses my Egyptian/ Eritrean relatives when I am in Africa.
They beg to know why I must adopt the superficial vapidity of the westerners. Why must I dumb down and refuse to akcnowledge my ancestry? Why must I
dishonour my own ancestors by omitting my true ethnicity?
I say to them as I say to you:

I am what I am not what others paint upon me.

That said, I have written and am producing a biopic film trilogy that has American, European, Arabic,Persian,Indian, American Indian and African actors as leads. I helped cast it because I wrote it for these actors. I have no problem with American Black or SubSaharan Africans portraying Egyptians and why should I? Our community was a diverse one and we embraced it.
THis film presents an opportunity for people that have been nurtered in a stifling and opressive world view- the world view of the reductionists that conquered the world and raped it of its resources- enslaving its endemic communities-
We are providing a beautiful, moving motion picture - actually if the heavens are smiling- three motion pictures back to back that actually celebrate the great diversity of Egyptian society.

But let us not parse words here. In our film and in ancient history, very specific ethnic peoples contributed to the Egyptian civilization.

Whole dynasti3es were founded by Somalian ethnics (Irthet and Puntite) and the Egyptians considered their origins to be in Somalia and beyond (think India here this is a trade route after all).

We have for example, In our story, the kingdom of Itjay ( in Fayoum) populated by Sub-Saharan expatriats -themselves descended of an earlier greater pre-hyksos dynasty- attempting to usurp the apparently doomed Thotmosides. The Sobeks of Itjay are round faced, brown people- Sam Jackson and Forest Whitaker, Tina Turner and Beverly Johnson are the write in cast for the House of Sobek. These actors are clearly not Nilotic- they do not exhibit Iman's long face or Anwar Sadat's profile- in fact they are just about the opposite.
IT doesnt matter. It's a story.They are the Sobeks
and they control the treasure and the armies of Egypt. they want the empire for themselves as it once was in their glorious past.

Regardless, the objective is to present clearly respective facial features and skin tones to represent different competing HOUSES all struggling to claim the throne for themselves as Amenhotep lies dying.
The army is made up of different allied vassal kingdoms and there is so much room for artistic expression here provided it is borne out by hard science and academic stewardship.

The problem I have is with the term BLACK.
It does not describe a single people. It lumps them altogether as a single population.

Europeans are Anglo-Saxon, Nordic, Italian, Spanish, French, Basque etc. Why are Africans just Black? Its a stupid obsession really and it is really starting to tick me off.
Get off the skin hue and get onto humanity.
We are one people. We share one consciousness and one earth. Who you are in that world is sometimes determined by how much you are worth. When you are brown or black or red, yellow or dingy white- you have a lot more difficult time getting ahead sometimes. And as I have said before, sometimes its people of our own ethnicity- people that identify themselves as the same "colour" that do all they can to drag us down. Don't we have enough issues and problems with the dominating culture- the one that can't distinguish an East Indian from India from a Cherokee from the eastern seaboard?
The people that couldn't distinguish between an Australian Aboriginal and a west African Bantu?

---

Maahes, you aren't making sense.

Black is not a statement of ethnicity, nationality, culture, religion, geography or genetics. It is simply a description of skin color. When we say black, or rather, when I say black, I mean person who is a shade of brown, from light to dark, which can describe many people from Africa, to the Pacific to the Americas. It is not a statement of common culture, ethnicity, identity, nationality, language or history. That is false. You are confusing skin color with ethnicity, because nobody claimed that the groups in the Western Sahara were Dinka peoples! We said that they are black, meaning that the variation or diversity in skin complexion found among populations in the Western Sahara is not UNIQUE and is part of the diversity found all over Africa among black people. There is no one shade of black, just as there is no one black nationality or one black religion or one black population or one black language. Nobody said any of that except you.

What you are doing is contradicting yourself, because you keep claiming that the Western Sahara is diverse, then turn right around and try and exclude certain Africans from that diversity, no matter how you put it or try and say it, you are pretending that VERY DARK Africans are a separate "species" of African tied to a certain genetic trait. WRONG. Very dark Africans are ALL OVER AFRICA, including the Western Sahara, because THEY ARE part of the diversity and biological ancestry OF AFRICA. All this trying to separate Africans based on skin color IS NONSENSE. You are making up nonsense, arbitrary ways of categorizing Africans based on absurd biological statements that have no validity in FACT. Africans vary in features ALL OVER AFRICA and that variation includes MANY shades of brown including VERY DARK and CUTS ACROSS many different genetic markers, languages, cultures and ethnicities. The reason we are saying you are brainwashed is because you seem to be trying to base identity on skin color, then claim that you are embracing diversity. How can you be embracing diversity while trying to separate out dark brown Africans as some SEPARATE "species" that is unrelated to other Africans? Your statements only belie a absolutely convoluted logic that cloaks an ANTI-BLACK sentiment with a whole bunch of good sounding rhetoric that fails to hide the absurdity of your claims.

Bottom line, I am against any attempt to try and pretend that very dark Africans are ONE ethnic group, ONE culture or ONE language or ONE population SEPARATE from other Africans. There is NO biological validity in such a statement. ALL black Africans are diverse and VERY DARK Africans are in every population of Africans in Africa and have ALWAYS been part of the diversity of Africa, all parts of Africa, from the very beginning. Any other sort of claim otherwise is purely nonsense.

Almost all of these people are black by any definition of the word, even though some of them are not. But even with that, people looking like this are found all over Africa among populations normally called black.










And finally, before you try and invent meanings for the word, why don't you look them up in the dictionary:

quote:

---

of or relating to any of various population groups having dark pigmentation of the skin

---

quote:

---

a. Of or belonging to a racial group having brown to black skin, especially one of African origin: the Black population of South Africa.
b. Of or belonging to an American ethnic group descended from African peoples having dark skin; African-American.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

..and as such purely African- northern eastern Africans- different from other northern eastern Africans that are equally African.

---

First of all, are you saying all those Egyptians whose pics you posted are suppose to be similar in appearance, because there are obvious differences in features and complexion from all those individuals??

Also, are you saying all those Egyptians are 'pure' African with no foreign-admixture because many of them look no different from 'Arab' Egyptians from cities like Cairo??
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
Oh my - You guys are really lame.
My family members are all Africans. There are many different ethnicities of Africans. You are deluded if you believe that all Africans are Black. But then I doubt that any of you know what Black people even look like. American Blacks are not the Dinka, they are not the Irthet and certainly not the Yam or MAzoi. But why am I even attempting to have this dialogue with you. Have you ever been to Africa? Have you ever lived in the Sahara? Obviously you haven't because you are confusing colour with ethnicity and culture. It's not your fault that you come from a racist country.
But I logged on here because someone working on the film told me I aught to. I almost regret that now. A few people have completely derailed the intellectual conversation and turned it into a stupidity fest.
What is your objective? You want to tell an Egyptian that she or he is Black? Go ahead. I wrote a film that places American Blacks in major parts as Egyptians. This should speak to my acceptance of Egypt as an African country.
In America you can fence off other countries and keep unwanted ethnic types from mixing into your population. In Egypt we have no such fences and never have. The only barrier is the desert and the river. Sorry to leave off this way but I know longer see any need to waste my time here.
I am an academic and spend months at a time in the refugee camps of Chad, Somalia, Ethiopia and Eritrea. I don't have the time or the interest in enabling the sort of willful ignorance that Eurocentrics/Afrocentrics tend to perpetuate.

The continent of Africa is vast. There are indigenous peoples of the continent with blonde hair and light eyes. There are indigenous people with yellow skin and diminutive stature with mongoloid folds around the eyes. There are indiginous people with blue black skin whgose average height is well over 5'10". There are indiginous Africans with reddish brown skin whose average height is under six feet. I could go on and on here. But I can't because I'm very very busy. Good Luck.

http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/history_in_africa/v032/32.1keita.pdf.
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Sounds like elements of the true negro myth and other false ideologies:

Primitive Negro Myth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i2dB2mIXhk

Origin of Egyptian civilization:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3w1x8nVD4xs&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZKMzU207MM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULiQLBo3rCY

Caravans of Gold
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULiQLBo3rCY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glOXTOwqjsk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK07In8iRaA

Hausa king and Durbar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiPWcHhzCWc&NR=1

Asante procession:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGK8-mUC2ig
(note the parasols, umbrellas, masks and floats: origin of the Mummer's parade and other traditions in the U.S. which mocked these processions in black face. Also part of the basis for the carnivals and processions in the Carribean and south America)

King and the City (Kingdoms of West Africa)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M0xTgJWwW4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2-oZlKctGk

Curee Salee (Nomadic Salt Festival):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQJ5fHrce6o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbFCoQXfFOU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0FmQBCGSM4

A love apart (Tuareg wedding story):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vceu3O6bF0I

Another festival:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Ucw830fDU

Nightingale of the desert:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SnHRfUQdA

Koudede:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGDe-4ahBGI&NR=1

Note the similarities in dress between the Tuaregs and Hausa. In fact many of the indigo robes and other accoutrements come from Nigeria via trade. The connections between the two are undeniable.

Timbuktu Artisans:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzoLRIpMwko
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
Oh my - You guys are really lame.
My family members are all Africans. There are many different ethnicities of Africans. You are deluded if you believe that all Africans are Black. But then I doubt that any of you know what Black people even look like. American Blacks are not the Dinka, they are not the Irthet and certainly not the Yam or MAzoi. But why am I even attempting to have this dialogue with you. Have you ever been to Africa? Have you ever lived in the Sahara? Obviously you haven't because you are confusing colour with ethnicity and culture. It's not your fault that you come from a racist country.
But I logged on here because someone working on the film told me I aught to. I almost regret that now. A few people have completely derailed the intellectual conversation and turned it into a stupidity fest.
What is your objective? You want to tell an Egyptian that she or he is Black? Go ahead. I wrote a film that places American Blacks in major parts as Egyptians. This should speak to my acceptance of Egypt as an African country.
In America you can fence off other countries and keep unwanted ethnic types from mixing into your population. In Egypt we have no such fences and never have. The only barrier is the desert and the river. Sorry to leave off this way but I know longer see any need to waste my time here.
I am an academic and spend months at a time in the refugee camps of Chad, Somalia, Ethiopia and Eritrea. I don't have the time or the interest in enabling the sort of willful ignorance that Eurocentrics/Afrocentrics tend to perpetuate.

The continent of Africa is vast. There are indigenous peoples of the continent with blonde hair and light eyes. There are indigenous people with yellow skin and diminutive stature with mongoloid folds around the eyes. There are indiginous people with blue black skin whgose average height is well over 5'10". There are indiginous Africans with reddish brown skin whose average height is under six feet. I could go on and on here. But I can't because I'm very very busy. Good Luck.

http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/history_in_africa/v032/32.1keita.pdf.

---

quote:

---

Caucasian actresses pop up every year and garner covers and instant recognition fame. But great talents like Tantoo Cardinal and Cicely Tyson are overlooked all too often. Stacey Dash is another actor that know one seems to know what to do with as is Halle Berry. Halle can make mountains move because she is smart, dedicated and blessed with an almost supernatural beauty. But we can all readily appreciate how some of the projects she stars in don't really suit her. The reason?

---

I should have know you had/have some issues when you stated that Halle Berry is blessed with an almost supernatural beauty (she's had as they say "help/work done" in attaining some of that so called naturalness) nonetheless she's cute. (I'll now pull my back my claws )
Much success with your film!
 

---

Posted by Nebsen (Member # 13728) on :
 
I have been reading these very interesting post,that stem from the discussion about a most wonderful sounding film project, "Goddess of The Sun", which I would love see come into fruition. I believe to view such a film will be a quantum leap for all who see's such a iconoclast production.It will take much hard work perseverance, & much finances, to bring such a project to the screen, & i wish Maahes nothing but best in his efforts.

But I have to say, the discussion about color/ race,who is Black, who is African etc. is really saddening me; to read all this back & forth.I'm no academic, but it seems that you all have some very salient points about the issue . I have to say, by Maahes actually being from the continent ( Africa)he should know what the realities are on the ground, so to speak. Maybe, if all concerned would just be very open to learn what the realities are for each group around Blackness, Africaness, without judgement it could be a win, win for all!

Could it be that the word "Black" has a "political" dimension for us in the states that does not translate in other parts of the diaspora including Africa, for a lots of the reasons Maahes outlined in his post ?Just a thought!
 

---

Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nebsen:

I have to say, by Maahes actually being from the continent ( Africa)he should know what the realities are on the ground, so to speak.

---

quote:

---

Nebsen:
Could it be that the word "Black" has a "political" dimension for us in the states that does not translate in other parts of the diaspora including Africa, for a lots of the reasons Maahes outlined in his post ?Just a thought!

---

quote:

---

Doug M Wrote:
But you aren't talking to us. The problem with you is you lump all people in Africa together as if they all are have the same ancestry when they don't.

---

I get the impression that he's doing the exact opposite, describing the different ethnicities that exists and celebrating the diversity in africa. It's YOU who is lumping together almost all people of that continent under the banner of "black", as if that had any meaning in their reality.

Lets get some few facts straight Doug M.
1)To start with there has never been an amalgation of people called "black" , 2) There is no such thing as a "black" culture, 3) no where have i heard of a language called "black", lastly but not least 4)there is NO such thing as a "black" people, never existed and never will.
However there are people called Igbo, Ashanti, Yoruba, Tigre, Beja, Fula etc. Now if you identify as black then good for you but you have to respect that most people who you consider "black" don't identify as such, now get that through your thick skull for once and stop projecting your recent identity on others. And also i don't think Maahes said that "blacks" (a you see it never existed in northrn africa, it's you who is chasing ghost and interpreting others thoughts differently as usual, you little racially minded you.
 

---

Posted by SaddenedAfrican (Member # 14348) on :
 
When indigenous African people begin thinking in racialist terms, they will finally begin to take control of their own continent and history.
Intellectually I am aware races do not exist, but for those who would harm Africans, it does.
Until Black peoples stop trying to join in solidarity with those who see them as OTHER, they as percentage will remain on bottom of the economic strata.

We have black people native Africans in the Diaspora doing everything to scramble away from other black people by claiming themselves BROWN or Native African Caucasoid and Asiatics.

Some posters here do everything to separate from other African ethnics. Its as though they are screaming, “I’m one of the good blacks…I will cooperate, I won’t rock the boat, I’ll go along, I’ll even help in belittling other blacks, just watch me. I’m not with them N*****S. I’m a good one, the model minority.”

They behave as such fools. Separation will never build strength. Yet, there are posters who seem to hate the idea of inclusion with other native Africans under label Black.

Entire Africa will end up like Somalia, with every ethnic group clamoring to establish themselves as some superior, separate clan or race.

Conflicts within Africa will continue as outsiders look on and take advantage of our self-imposed divisions.

I believe those who accentuate differences among Africans are collaborators and traitors. I can only pray that at some point they become enlightened individuals or disappear.

Only Unity will change things. If that unity must come under identifier of Black, why not use it to change things that have gone wrong over last few millennia?

Anyone who would divide us into separate shades and pontificate on ethnic differences is exactly reason why Native Africans have been targets of wandering and violent peoples who are united in their agreement that natives of Africa are the 'Black Other' to be abused for profit, used as cheap labor and humiliated for ever.

The French, British, Swedish, Romanian, Albanian, all understand they are White and Europeans when among outsiders who clearly are not. Why must some Africans insist in thinking so small minded by promoting ethnic chauvinisms when they should present African Unity under representation of color Black?

It was good enough for ancient Egyptians, so why do we have their supposed ancestors and certain East African ethnics, clinging to their not so accomplished ethnic clans as sole identifiers.

I think most religious texts warn against displaying foolish pride, wish these overly prideful Africans would learn.

An observer.
 

---

Posted by KemsonReloaded (Member # 14127) on :
 
Dough M great video links man. Maahes really needs to view those video links you posted, I think he'll learn a thing or two from them. I do like some of the things the guy was saying though.
 

---

Posted by KemsonReloaded (Member # 14127) on :
 
Isn't ironic how all of a sudden more people, especially those calling themselves "Africans", claim to be tired of Afrocentrism and Eurocentrism, but when White specialists were ever busy pummeling down and destroying Black history with impunity, some of these same people did absolutely nothing to challenge such barbaric behaviors. When Black Africans take the necessary intellectual steps of wrestling back their history from people who only and to wrestle when we’re sleeping, these self-style humanist start mumbling.

Inevitably, that Black Africans will take the control of managing, defining and presenting their history. In turn, it will be easier to defend other indigenous Africans who may not have the experience of handling the shock, let alone addressing the mass web of Euro-trick bags awaiting them.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
SaddenedAfrican Sun wise words
Wise words every one.
Oft spoke, ever wrote
Very needed
Seldom heeded
to our sorrow
Manifest tomorrow

quote:

---

Originally posted by SaddenedAfrican:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SaddenedAfrican:
When indigenous African people begin thinking in racialist terms, they will finally begin to take control of their own continent and history.
Intellectually I am aware races do not exist, but for those who would harm Africans, it does.
Until Black peoples stop trying to join in solidarity with those who see them as OTHER, they as percentage will remain on bottom of the economic strata.

We have black people native Africans in the Diaspora doing everything to scramble away from other black people by claiming themselves BROWN or Native African Caucasoid and Asiatics.

Some posters here do everything to separate from other African ethnics. Its as though they are screaming, “I’m one of the good blacks…I will cooperate, I won’t rock the boat, I’ll go along, I’ll even help in belittling other blacks, just watch me. I’m not with them N*****S. I’m a good one, the model minority.”

They behave as such fools. Separation will never build strength. Yet, there are posters who seem to hate the idea of inclusion with other native Africans under label Black.

Entire Africa will end up like Somalia, with every ethnic group clamoring to establish themselves as some superior, separate clan or race.

Conflicts within Africa will continue as outsiders look on and take advantage of our self-imposed divisions.

I believe those who accentuate differences among Africans are collaborators and traitors. I can only pray that at some point they become enlightened individuals or disappear.

Only Unity will change things. If that unity must come under identifier of Black, why not use it to change things that have gone wrong over last few millennia?

Anyone who would divide us into separate shades and pontificate on ethnic differences is exactly reason why Native Africans have been targets of wandering and violent peoples who are united in their agreement that natives of Africa are the 'Black Other' to be abused for profit, used as cheap labor and humiliated for ever.

The French, British, Swedish, Romanian, Albanian, all understand they are White and Europeans when among outsiders who clearly are not. Why must some Africans insist in thinking so small minded by promoting ethnic chauvinisms when they should present African Unity under representation of color Black?

It was good enough for ancient Egyptians, so why do we have their supposed ancestors and certain East African ethnics, clinging to their not so accomplished ethnic clans as sole identifiers.

I think most religious texts warn against displaying foolish pride, wish these overly prideful Africans would learn.

An observer.

---

I would agree with you but unfortunately your writing is very naive. If Indigenous Africans start dumbing themselves down and accepting racialist terms they will be swallowing the willful ignorance of the west.
I can assure you, we, meaning my families tribal clan have been very much in control of their tiny parcel of scorched earth for more centuries than history has memory of. We have always controled our lands and we have always been stewards of our lands. We have managed to survive all this time, thank you very much.

I do believe that since you can write you can read. I don't believe you are actually reading with entirety what I am writing. Thus, your comments are off mark.
We've had a few centuries of academics in my family. We are a minority within the great nation of Egypt. Do you suppose we have ever felt discrimination or persecution by the dominating cultures?
Not only has this generation experienced them- we felt more of the same from the Ptolemies, the Persians and the Romans. I say to you, come to Africa and live there. Embrace community and self-sacrifice. Let go of your ideals forged in the kiln of the insatiable west. I say to thee stop eating altogether and live off the grains you find at the roadside for weeks and months.
I say to thee turn your head and swallow the enmity growing in your stomach as you see the women in your tribe disprespected by a powerful majority. I say to thee great American brown man, sacrifice a few months pay and travel to Chad and dedicate yourself to the cause of serving those that have been displaced by wars within Africa, waged by Africans, displacing Africans. You may learn there that tens of thousands of Africans are experiencing a sad reality. To rise up against your neighbor is to cause more war, more destruction more misery more starvation.


You haven't any idea what the experience of a Saharan African is. I do. I've encapsulated in a historical fiction epic about the 18th Dynasty.
I hope you will come and see the motion picture and I hope that you will appreciate the casting of Cicely Tyson as the Queen Mother and Stacey Dash as the Princess Dowager. I hope that you will appreciate the performances of Shohreh Aghdashloo as Queen Gilukhepha and Amr Waked as Hereditary Prince and High Priest of the Great Bull,Nakht; Sami Bouijilla as Akhenaten, Said Taghmaoui as Hani the messenger and Khaled El Nabaoui as Chariotry Captain Ranefer. Sir Ben Kingsley as the Divine Prophet Aanen, James Earl Jones as Ringbearer Lord Ptahmose, Wanakee Pugh as the Warrior Queen Sitamun, Nona Gaye as Queen Isis, and finally my favorite character :

Madam Mem as Princess Henuttaneb, Steward of the Oracle.
"One of the king's daughters was born with albinism. Aanen is obsessed with her "imperfection". Princess Henuttaneb has been raised in the Mansion of the Oracle where her identity and condition are carefully guarded secrets."

teanaste'lle'n

Climb out of that box. I command you!

Ancient Proverbs transliterated.
(used with frequency to this day amongst SaHidic Arabic speaking Upper Egyptians and Amharic/ Tamazight speaking Western Desert Tribespeoples)

<makedroush 3al Homar kedrom 3al barda3a>

Literal transalation: They couldn't beat the donkey so they beat the saddle!
Hidden meaning: Be fair. Blame the source of the problem.
Applicability: Inability to see the real problem and the real evil.
<'Elle fat kadimoh tah>

Literal translation: Lost is the person who forgets his/her past.
Hidden meaning: Remember what you were before bragging about what you became...
Applicability: Criticizing those who want to be disassociated from their roots.

<Labbes 'el bousa tebka 3arousa>

Literal translation: Dress-up a stick and you get a doll.
Hidden meaning: Make up (cosmetics) can make the ugly quite pretty.
Applicability: Don't be fooled by appearances...

<Elzann 3ala elwedaan amarr min el-seHr>

Literal translation: Humming in one's ear is more (effective) than magic
Hidden meaning: Incessant meaningless complaints do eventually work!
Applicability: Advice to avoid listening to somebody who keeps on
pushing a foolish argument

The best and shortest road towards knowledge of truth is Nature.

f one tries to navigate unknown waters one runs the risk of shipwreck.
- Leave him in error who loves his error.
- Every man is rich in excuses to safeguard his prejudices, his instincts, and his opinions.
- To know means to record in one's memory; but to understand means to blend with the thing and to assimilate it oneself.
- There are two kinds of error: blind credulity and piecemeal criticism. Never believe a word without putting its truth to the test; discernment does not grow in laziness; and this faculty of discernment is indispensable to the Seeker. Sound skepticism is the necessary condition for good discernment; but piecemeal criticism is an error.


You speak of a black Africa of a common objective.
This is clear evidence that tribalism is completly alien to you. Egyptologists with Eurocentric leanings have marginalized the tribal origins of Ancient Egyptian culture. We remedy that with this film. The Great Houses are competing for power...
Corrupt remainders of every skin tone and ethnicity are grappling for the scepter. But it is the tribal roots of the history - the entitlements of matrilinear heiresses that trump all-

To truly comprehend ancient Egyptian history one has to have some knowledge and understanding of North and East African Tribal Customs and ideology. Cattle Cultures, Ancestral Worship Cultures- so many different ideologies working simultaneously at different stable Sepat nomarchies. Do you know what a sepat is? Do you know what a sepat nomarch is?

Afrocentrics are not interested in tribal cultures at least not at this late date. Their naivette on African racial/ethnic origins makes that much clear. Not to worry. There is alot to learn and an open mind will meet the challenges provided by nature and evolve and adapt to find knowledge.

You may enjoy the project that follows this one, a film trilogy about the Trail of Tears and the role of the Buffalo Soldiers in claiming Indian lands for European descended settlers. Its called Treatise for Boometowne and no one ethnicity gets off being the victim or the bad guy. Plenty of blame to pass around.
No clear cut bad guys there and certainly no good guys- its not a white and black paridigm you see.
And neither is Goddess of the Sun.
 

---

Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
Sorry for my little blow up there. I'm not going to let you subjugate this dialogue with emotional sabbotage. Let's stay on topic. First, I'll answer to some of the Afrocentric whining:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SaddenedAfrican:
When indigenous African people begin thinking in racialist terms, they will finally begin to take control of their own continent and history.
Intellectually I am aware races do not exist, but for those who would harm Africans, it does.
Until Black peoples stop trying to join in solidarity with those who see them as OTHER, they as percentage will remain on bottom of the economic strata.

We have black people native Africans in the Diaspora doing everything to scramble away from other black people by claiming themselves BROWN or Native African Caucasoid and Asiatics.

Some posters here do everything to separate from other African ethnics. Its as though they are screaming, “I’m one of the good blacks…I will cooperate, I won’t rock the boat, I’ll go along, I’ll even help in belittling other blacks, just watch me. I’m not with them N*****S. I’m a good one, the model minority.”

They behave as such fools. Separation will never build strength. Yet, there are posters who seem to hate the idea of inclusion with other native Africans under label Black.

Entire Africa will end up like Somalia, with every ethnic group clamoring to establish themselves as some superior, separate clan or race.

Conflicts within Africa will continue as outsiders look on and take advantage of our self-imposed divisions.

I believe those who accentuate differences among Africans are collaborators and traitors. I can only pray that at some point they become enlightened individuals or disappear.

Only Unity will change things. If that unity must come under identifier of Black, why not use it to change things that have gone wrong over last few millennia?

Anyone who would divide us into separate shades and pontificate on ethnic differences is exactly reason why Native Africans have been targets of wandering and violent peoples who are united in their agreement that natives of Africa are the 'Black Other' to be abused for profit, used as cheap labor and humiliated for ever.

The French, British, Swedish, Romanian, Albanian, all understand they are White and Europeans when among outsiders who clearly are not. Why must some Africans insist in thinking so small minded by promoting ethnic chauvinisms when they should present African Unity under representation of color Black?

It was good enough for ancient Egyptians, so why do we have their supposed ancestors and certain East African ethnics, clinging to their not so accomplished ethnic clans as sole identifiers.

I think most religious texts warn against displaying foolish pride, wish these overly prideful Africans would learn.

An observer.

---

quote:

---

I would agree with you but unfortunately your writing is very naive. If Indigenous Africans start dumbing themselves down and accepting racialist terms they will be swallowing the willful ignorance of the west.
I can assure you, we, meaning my families tribal clan have been very much in control of their tiny parcel of scorched earth for more centuries than history has memory of. We have always controled our lands and we have always been stewards of our lands. We have managed to survive all this time, thank you very much.

---

quote:

---

I do believe that since you can write you can read.

---

quote:

---

I don't believe you are actually reading with entirety what I am writing. Thus, your comments are off mark. We've had a few centuries of academics in my family. We are a minority within the great nation of Egypt. Do you suppose we have ever felt discrimination or persecution by the dominating cultures? Not only has this generation experienced them- we felt more of the same from the Ptolemies, the Persians and the Romans. I say to you, come to Africa and live there. Embrace community and self-sacrifice. Let go of your ideals forged in the kiln of the insatiable west. I say to thee stop eating altogether and live off the grains you find at the roadside for weeks and months.

---

quote:

---

I say to thee turn your head and swallow the enmity growing in your stomach as you see the women in your tribe disprespected by a powerful majority.

---

quote:

---

I say to thee great American brown man

---

quote:

---

, sacrifice a few months pay and travel to Chad and dedicate yourself to the cause of serving those that have been displaced by wars within Africa, waged by Africans, displacing Africans.

---

quote:

---

You may learn there that tens of thousands of Africans are experiencing a sad reality. To rise up against your neighbor is to cause more war, more destruction more misery more starvation.

---

quote:

---

You haven't any idea what the experience of a Saharan African is. I do. I've encapsulated in a historical fiction epic about the 18th Dynasty.
I hope you will come and see the motion picture and I hope that you will appreciate the casting of Cicely Tyson as the Queen Mother and Stacey Dash as the Princess Dowager.

---

quote:

---

Climb out of that box. I command you!


Ancient Proverbs transliterated.
(used with frequency to this day amongst SaHidic Arabic speaking Upper Egyptians and Amharic/ Tamazight speaking Western Desert Tribespeoples)

<makedroush 3al Homar kedrom 3al barda3a>

Literal transalation: They couldn't beat the donkey so they beat the saddle!
Hidden meaning: Be fair. Blame the source of the problem.
Applicability: Inability to see the real problem and the real evil.
<'Elle fat kadimoh tah>

---

quote:

---

You speak of a black Africa of a common objective.
This is clear evidence that tribalism is completly alien to you. Egyptologists with Eurocentric leanings have marginalized the tribal origins of Ancient Egyptian culture. We remedy that with this film. The Great Houses are competing for power...
Corrupt remainders of every skin tone and ethnicity are grappling for the scepter. But it is the tribal roots of the history - the entitlements of matrilinear heiresses that trump all-

---

quote:

---

To truly comprehend ancient Egyptian history one has to have some knowledge and understanding of North and East African Tribal Customs and ideology. Cattle Cultures, Ancestral Worship Cultures- so many different ideologies working simultaneously at different stable Sepat nomarchies. Do you know what a sepat is? Do you know what a sepat nomarch is?

---

quote:

---

Afrocentrics are not interested in tribal cultures at least not at this late date. Their naivette on African racial/ethnic origins makes that much clear. Not to worry. There is alot to learn and an open mind will meet the challenges provided by nature and evolve and adapt to find knowledge.

---

quote:

---

You may enjoy the project that follows this one, a film trilogy about the Trail of Tears and the role of the Buffalo Soldiers in claiming Indian lands for European descended settlers. Its called Treatise for Boometowne and no one ethnicity gets off being the victim or the bad guy. Plenty of blame to pass around.
No clear cut bad guys there and certainly no good guys- its not a white and black paridigm you see.
And neither is Goddess of the Sun.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yonis2:

quote:

---

Doug M Wrote:
But you aren't talking to us. The problem with you is you lump all people in Africa together as if they all are have the same ancestry when they don't.

---

I get the impression that he's doing the exact opposite, describing the different ethnicities that exists and celebrating the diversity in africa. It's YOU who is lumping together almost all people of that continent under the banner of "black", as if that had any meaning in their reality.

Lets get some few facts straight Doug M.
1)To start with there has never been an amalgation of people called "black" , 2) There is no such thing as a "black" culture, 3) no where have i heard of a language called "black", lastly but not least 4)there is NO such thing as a "black" people, never existed and never will.
However there are people called Igbo, Ashanti, Yoruba, Tigre, Beja, Fula etc. Now if you identify as black then good for you but you have to respect that most people who you consider "black" don't identify as such, now get that through your thick skull for once and stop projecting your recent identity on others. And also i don't think Maahes said that "blacks" (a you see it never existed in northrn africa, it's you who is chasing ghost and interpreting others thoughts differently as usual, you little racially minded you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
Sorry for my little blow up there. I'm not going to let you subjugate this dialogue with emotional sabbotage. Let's stay on topic. First, I'll answer to some of the Afrocentric whining:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SaddenedAfrican:
When indigenous African people begin thinking in racialist terms, they will finally begin to take control of their own continent and history.
Intellectually I am aware races do not exist, but for those who would harm Africans, it does.
Until Black peoples stop trying to join in solidarity with those who see them as OTHER, they as percentage will remain on bottom of the economic strata.

We have black people native Africans in the Diaspora doing everything to scramble away from other black people by claiming themselves BROWN or Native African Caucasoid and Asiatics.

Some posters here do everything to separate from other African ethnics. Its as though they are screaming, “I’m one of the good blacks…I will cooperate, I won’t rock the boat, I’ll go along, I’ll even help in belittling other blacks, just watch me. I’m not with them N*****S. I’m a good one, the model minority.”

They behave as such fools. Separation will never build strength. Yet, there are posters who seem to hate the idea of inclusion with other native Africans under label Black.

Entire Africa will end up like Somalia, with every ethnic group clamoring to establish themselves as some superior, separate clan or race.

Conflicts within Africa will continue as outsiders look on and take advantage of our self-imposed divisions.

I believe those who accentuate differences among Africans are collaborators and traitors. I can only pray that at some point they become enlightened individuals or disappear.

Only Unity will change things. If that unity must come under identifier of Black, why not use it to change things that have gone wrong over last few millennia?

Anyone who would divide us into separate shades and pontificate on ethnic differences is exactly reason why Native Africans have been targets of wandering and violent peoples who are united in their agreement that natives of Africa are the 'Black Other' to be abused for profit, used as cheap labor and humiliated for ever.

The French, British, Swedish, Romanian, Albanian, all understand they are White and Europeans when among outsiders who clearly are not. Why must some Africans insist in thinking so small minded by promoting ethnic chauvinisms when they should present African Unity under representation of color Black?

It was good enough for ancient Egyptians, so why do we have their supposed ancestors and certain East African ethnics, clinging to their not so accomplished ethnic clans as sole identifiers.

I think most religious texts warn against displaying foolish pride, wish these overly prideful Africans would learn.

An observer.

---

I would agree with you but unfortunately your writing is very naive. If Indigenous Africans start dumbing themselves down and accepting racialist terms they will be swallowing the willful ignorance of the west.
I can assure you, we, meaning my families tribal clan have been very much in control of their tiny parcel of scorched earth for more centuries than history has memory of. We have always controled our lands and we have always been stewards of our lands. We have managed to survive all this time, thank you very much.

I do believe that since you can write you can read. I don't believe you are actually reading with entirety what I am writing. Thus, your comments are off mark.
We've had a few centuries of academics in my family. We are a minority within the great nation of Egypt. Do you suppose we have ever felt discrimination or persecution by the dominating cultures?
Not only has this generation experienced them- we felt more of the same from the Ptolemies, the Persians and the Romans. I say to you, come to Africa and live there. Embrace community and self-sacrifice. Let go of your ideals forged in the kiln of the insatiable west. I say to thee stop eating altogether and live off the grains you find at the roadside for weeks and months.
I say to thee turn your head and swallow the enmity growing in your stomach as you see the women in your tribe disprespected by a powerful majority. I say to thee great American brown man, sacrifice a few months pay and travel to Chad and dedicate yourself to the cause of serving those that have been displaced by wars within Africa, waged by Africans, displacing Africans. You may learn there that tens of thousands of Africans are experiencing a sad reality. To rise up against your neighbor is to cause more war, more destruction more misery more starvation.


You haven't any idea what the experience of a Saharan African is. I do. I've encapsulated in a historical fiction epic about the 18th Dynasty.
I hope you will come and see the motion picture and I hope that you will appreciate the casting of Cicely Tyson as the Queen Mother and Stacey Dash as the Princess Dowager. I hope that you will appreciate the performances of Shohreh Aghdashloo as Queen Gilukhepha and Amr Waked as Hereditary Prince and High Priest of the Great Bull,Nakht; Sami Bouijilla as Akhenaten, Said Taghmaoui as Hani the messenger and Khaled El Nabaoui as Chariotry Captain Ranefer. Sir Ben Kingsley as the Divine Prophet Aanen, James Earl Jones as Ringbearer Lord Ptahmose, Wanakee Pugh as the Warrior Queen Sitamun, Nona Gaye as Queen Isis, and finally my favorite character :

Madam Mem as Princess Henuttaneb, Steward of the Oracle.
"One of the king's daughters was born with albinism. Aanen is obsessed with her "imperfection". Princess Henuttaneb has been raised in the Mansion of the Oracle where her identity and condition are carefully guarded secrets."

teanaste'lle'n

Climb out of that box. I command you!

Ancient Proverbs transliterated.
(used with frequency to this day amongst SaHidic Arabic speaking Upper Egyptians and Amharic/ Tamazight speaking Western Desert Tribespeoples)

<makedroush 3al Homar kedrom 3al barda3a>

Literal transalation: They couldn't beat the donkey so they beat the saddle!
Hidden meaning: Be fair. Blame the source of the problem.
Applicability: Inability to see the real problem and the real evil.
<'Elle fat kadimoh tah>

Literal translation: Lost is the person who forgets his/her past.
Hidden meaning: Remember what you were before bragging about what you became...
Applicability: Criticizing those who want to be disassociated from their roots.

<Labbes 'el bousa tebka 3arousa>

Literal translation: Dress-up a stick and you get a doll.
Hidden meaning: Make up (cosmetics) can make the ugly quite pretty.
Applicability: Don't be fooled by appearances...

<Elzann 3ala elwedaan amarr min el-seHr>

Literal translation: Humming in one's ear is more (effective) than magic
Hidden meaning: Incessant meaningless complaints do eventually work!
Applicability: Advice to avoid listening to somebody who keeps on
pushing a foolish argument

The best and shortest road towards knowledge of truth is Nature.

f one tries to navigate unknown waters one runs the risk of shipwreck.
- Leave him in error who loves his error.
- Every man is rich in excuses to safeguard his prejudices, his instincts, and his opinions.
- To know means to record in one's memory; but to understand means to blend with the thing and to assimilate it oneself.
- There are two kinds of error: blind credulity and piecemeal criticism. Never believe a word without putting its truth to the test; discernment does not grow in laziness; and this faculty of discernment is indispensable to the Seeker. Sound skepticism is the necessary condition for good discernment; but piecemeal criticism is an error.


You speak of a black Africa of a common objective.
This is clear evidence that tribalism is completly alien to you. Egyptologists with Eurocentric leanings have marginalized the tribal origins of Ancient Egyptian culture. We remedy that with this film. The Great Houses are competing for power...
Corrupt remainders of every skin tone and ethnicity are grappling for the scepter. But it is the tribal roots of the history - the entitlements of matrilinear heiresses that trump all-

To truly comprehend ancient Egyptian history one has to have some knowledge and understanding of North and East African Tribal Customs and ideology. Cattle Cultures, Ancestral Worship Cultures- so many different ideologies working simultaneously at different stable Sepat nomarchies. Do you know what a sepat is? Do you know what a sepat nomarch is?

Afrocentrics are not interested in tribal cultures at least not at this late date. Their naivette on African racial/ethnic origins makes that much clear. Not to worry. There is alot to learn and an open mind will meet the challenges provided by nature and evolve and adapt to find knowledge.

You may enjoy the project that follows this one, a film trilogy about the Trail of Tears and the role of the Buffalo Soldiers in claiming Indian lands for European descended settlers. Its called Treatise for Boometowne and no one ethnicity gets off being the victim or the bad guy. Plenty of blame to pass around.
No clear cut bad guys there and certainly no good guys- its not a white and black paridigm you see.
And neither is Goddess of the Sun.

---

 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 

www.touregypt.net/featurestories/yam.htm

Wow. More emotional bloodletting. What I said was to my knowledge no Dinka, Irthet or Mazoi were ever hereditary chiefs of Egypt e.g. Pharaoh. And you should know that the term pharaoh e.g. the Great House is not a person- it is a governmental body presided over by the Kenbet, the matriarchate council, the House of Amen or another religious party depending on the dynasty- the royal family including the king figurehead and all those administrators who are hereditary nobles of various sepats.

If a foreign entity were to take over the Egyptian Governmental body and usurp all those generations of hereditary chiefs and cheiftanesses- than that individual might demand that he be called Pharaoh.
But generally speaking and this is from a Sahidic (Saite) perspective, just about anyone that would call themselves a pharaoh would be calling themselves an illegitimate leader. Scribes went out of their way to have fun at the "Pharaoh"'s expense cursing the name of the self-styled king.
But that is a digression.

The term Black Pharaoh to describe Herihor is thusly an insult to Herihor and his descendants. Herihor came from a tribe of people whose banner the Oryx is indigenous to Eastern Africa. He did not lead any sort of culturally imperialistic revolt over Egypt- he restored order to chaotic Egypt that had lost its way -a tree toppled over for the weight of its roots and branches.
While we are using similar terminology here were are certainly not utilizing the same nomenclature.

Herihor who I was speaking about was not a Black Pharaoh.
Were there dark-skinned what some might term " Sub-Saharan" dynasty heads and hereditary chiefs/chieftanesses? Absolutely!
Anyone that would argue against that is willfuly ignorant. There are whole generations of some of Egypt's most important generational/dynastic founders who are most assuredly derived of southern roots- they probably had very dark skin- darker than your average Brown American and probably about average with your general Somalian populace- a bit dark for some Ethiopians but very typical for most of East Africa in general- if these individuals walked into Bank of America and asked for a loan they would be categorically turned down. They would be described as " Dark-Skinned" by American city kids on the subway if asked to describe who just passed by.
But were they Black? No. They were not peoples of the Black Rock. They were not descendants of the Black Rock. Now- were members of their family members of the Black Rock? One sterling individual a Mazoi or Yam comes to mind. His name escapes me at this moment but he was much beloved of Hatshepsut and was buried with full honours in Valley of the Kings if memory serves me correctly. I'll look him up

http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_culture&Number=294966687&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=21&part=

Anyway-
Hereditary Chiefs and Chieftanesses are just that, hereditary. The tribal clans of Egypt were not as far as I know from the Dinka, the Irthet, the Fur, the Mazoi or the Yam. These are the tribes of the venerable Black Rock. We have been trading partners and cultural neighbors for as long as Africa has existed. Why is this so controversial to some of you? What is the issue?

Because I come from Africa and live there half the year, because i dedicate my life to displaced Africans, I force myself to learn about the respective histories of the peoples. My peoples.

Some biased person took some quotation of mine out of context and twisted that writing to say something that I never said. Now writers are reacting to the statement that is taken out of context.

When I wrote that piece over at the Egyptian Dreams forum and one that I was banned from that site for by the way- for being an Afrocentric racist if memory serves me right- I was/am speaking of the people of the Black Rock - whose unique cultural history and great antiquity in the Sahara is not open to debate. They have very distinctive pottery, art and basket weaving- very unique skeletans and burial customs I might add.
They have always lived in the Sahara just as pale eyed, pale haired Tjemehu have always lived in the Sahara. Neither is any more or less African than the other.

The writer who makes the assumption that white is better than black is perpetuating that regretful reaction to Eruocentric pandering that I define as Afrocentricism. Africa is a continent. On this great continent the vast majority of diversity of plants and animals that would come to populate both Asia and Europe are rooted.

What I have been asserting time and again is that Africa has a diverse population of human beings.
They come in many different colours. The osteological data, the HARD SCIENCE of anthropology of predynastic and dynastic Egypt present a very clear picture.

Language, culture and bones, haploptypes and DNA these are not refutable evidence.

East Africa and West Asia are as related to one another as the Black Maned Saharan Lion is to the Asiatic Lion. They are related as closely as Andammen Island Pygmoid Indigene and the Central African Pygmoid Indigene.

Can't you comprehend that the earth's history is not capable of containment? You can't shelf off life because of your justifiable pride of your ancestral origins.

Skin colour is only the superficial issue here obviously.

Let's have a look at Africa for a moment. Try to open your minds and not be so emotionally attached to inferiority complexes. I don't have one and you shouldn't either.

This is where my family comes from:

Its a place in Africa. Here is where the bodies of our ancestors lay.


Again, in Africa.

This is a hunting panther or Cheetah. They only exist in Africa and Western Asia.


These three men are all Ma'ahes Chiefs

Two are of Ibex clan. They wear Indigo cloth and are dark brown skinned. The third man whose name is Tzi is an indigenous Saharan of Aoudad Clan. He has dark tawny ochre skin and Mongoloid folds around his eyes.
The Ibex clan tend have dark brown skin and long hair that spirals in long tendrils. The Auodad have pepper corn hair and speak in a click dialect. Tzi's ancestors were the original inhabitants of the Sahara before anyone else existed there. His ancestors generated pictographs across the desert. The Ibex people generated others. The Ibex's original home included parts of Libya, Niger, Western Egypt and Sudan. The Tuareg and Woodabe share similar words and burial customs. Neither of these people would consider themselves peoples of the Black Rock. The Black Rock is a plateau that stretches from Darfur to Niger. It is black rock and its peoples are very tall, very black and very noble. We love and respect them. They are not considered inferior by any means. Their baskets and pottery , their cattle and bead work were and are to a lesser extent today- greatly admired and valued by us- the northern neighbors.

This is a troupe of Sebkhet Mummy birds in Khargha. Their nearest relatives are another wild population of Nasal Bristled Guineafowl - in Somalia. In other words the original range of this unique species of terrestrial birds- limited in flight capacity dependent upon water and shelter alot like human beings- once extended from Northern central Somalia all the way to Siwa.
The aridification of the Holocene drastically reduced its range.
Not incidentally, the heiroglyphic of the guineafowl symbolizes eternity. It was a sacred bird of our ancestors. Eurocentric Egyptologists made assumptions that the bird was introduced during Greek times which is of course nonsense. The prejudice against any connection between "sub-Saharan" Africa and Egypt is well known to me
and my Great Grand Uncle Ziko Gonneim- another indigenous Egyptian.


Who unearthed this beautiful funerary piece from a woman whose iconography suggests she is of Ibex ancestry.
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
Now just to open the box a little further have a look at some people you aught to know about:

This woman is Oryx ( Red Rock) Clan:


While this man is Dinka ( Black Rock) Clan:


This woman is Auodad from Tunisia


This man is Kung! From South Africa. His ancestors once peopled the entire Sahara and all of Southern Asia.


While we might think we see a "Black" person when we see a Kung! or Khoisan person, their genetic and osteological traits clade together with some very endangered peoples that live in Southern Asia:

Here is another unique peoples that left Africa before recorded history and peopled Southern Asia:



So- can't even remember what I was writing about - but basically - diversity the topic the issue- it doesn't belong to dogmatic barkers or prejudicial whiners. It belongs to the peoples of Earth.

 

---

Posted by SaddenedAfrican (Member # 14348) on :
 
"42 Declarations of Innocence" "42 Admonitions of Ma'at" "42 Negative
Confessions"

I have not done iniquity.
I have not robbed with violence.
I have not stolen.
I have done no murder, I have done no harm.
I have not defrauded offerings.
I have not diminished obligations.
I have not plundered the Netcher.
I have not spoken lies.
I have not snatched away food.
I have not caused pain.
I have not committed fornication.
I have not caused shedding of tears.
I have not dealt deceitfully.
I have not transgressed.
I have not acted guilefully.
I have not laid waste the ploughed land.
I have not been an eavesdropper.
I have not set my lips in motion (against any man).
**I have not been angry and wrathful except for a just cause.
I have not defiled the wife of any man.
I have not defiled the wife of any man. (repeated twice)
I have not polluted myself.
I have not cause terror.
I have not transgressed. (repeated twice)
I have not burned with rage.
**I have not stopped my ears against the words of Right and Truth (Ma'at).
I have not worked grief.
**I have not acted with insolence.
**I have not stirred up a strife.
***I have not judged hastily.***
I have not been an eavesdropper. (repeated twice)
I have not multiplied words exceedingly.
I have not done neither harm nor ill.
I have never cursed the King.
I have never fouled the water.
***I have not spoken scornfully.***
I have never cursed the Netcher.
I have not stolen.
I have not defrauded the offerings of the Netcher.
I have not plundered the offerings to the blessed dead.
I have not filched the food of the infant, neither have I sinned
against the Netcher of my native town.
I have not slaughtered with evil intent the cattle of the Netcher.

You display hubris, Maahes.

I am a man, aware, are you?
Implication: I am aware when I speak wrongful. I make corrections and humble myself for no other reason than it pleases me.

Good Luck with the movie.

I am also currently involved in a difficult endeavor(novel)to complete.

I know how it is, and truly wish you successes, always.
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
"Were they displaced by the super-Negroid (truly black) Africans, the Hamites, the Pygmoids, the Reds, the Caucasoids, or the Khoisan Africans? It seems that you're familiar with all of these supposed groups and it seems relevant to ask since it might explain the hostility; maybe it was racial?"
Are you mad? You can't blame the problems Africans are experiencing at the hands of other Africans on anyone but the people that make the mental decision to make their neighbors suffer.
You can't blame the the problems Sunni Iraqi are experiencing on the Americans. The Shiite militia is to blame.

The Tutsi and the Hutu killed one another. Some might try and blame the Europeans. But it wasn't the Europeans brandishing machetes at innocent women and children much less the larger percentage of the educated adult men.

So where are you going with this presuppositional bias- this tirade of yours? I'm no fraud. I'm a humanist and an African. I don't agree with some of your racist ideology. That doesn't make me a hippocrite. It makes me an objective thinker.

Did you ever bother to read this opus?


http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/history_in_africa/v032/32.1keita.pdf.

The next time you bother to contribute your opinion, perhaps you should do your homework.

The people of the Black Rock are not "super-Negroid". What is your problem with these so-called "Negroes"? You do realize that there are more different kinds of Africans than Negro and non Negro correct? None is better than any other.

I wouldn't suggest that any but the Bantu speakers are what you are suggesting here and again, they are not of the Black ROCK. THEY ARE BANTU.

In the creation myth of the Saharan Africans, the belief that all human kind was forged on a kiln from different colours of clay was paramount. The Ochre coloured clay was first-the Khoisan and related desert pictograph painters. The Black Rock clay - sprung to life as the imposingly surreal Fur and related peoples- the peoples of the Black Rock- the peoples that merged their cattle culture to ours and introduced the technologies of basket weaving and bead making to Egyptian predynastic cultures. Thirdly, the peoples of the Red Rock- the red clay- the Saite- were born and it goes on and on for there are many different beautiful colours of rock and clay in the great Sahara. Every hue of man was known by all. We didn't know the Bantu speakers until the late dynastic period.
How could we? They were very hostile enemies with the Fur. They fought over the rights of certain resources and cattle. The Black Rock people acted as barriers between the Bantu speakers and the Sahara until the Bantu slave trade poured past Niger ~1500 years ago. I dont think it ever reached the Horn of Africa or Somalia.
Y haplogroup E3b1 in Somali males
posted by Dienekes on Friday, March 11, 2005

A new study quantifies the extent of Eurasian (15%) and Sub-Saharan African (5%) paternal admixture in Somalis, a population which appears to be predominantly East African paternally. The authors also explain why the Somalis have low Sub-Saharan African admixture:

The time of the eastbound Bantu expansion was estimated to be 3400�1100 years ago.24 Bantu populations have high frequencies of E3a haplogroups.4 We have observed only a few individuals with the E3a haplogroup in our Somali population, thus, supporting the view that the Bantu migration did not reach Somalia.42 It has been suggested that a barrier against gene flow exist in the region.43 The barrier seems to be the Cushitic languages and cultures to which Somalis belongs. The Cushitic languages belong to the Afro-Asiatic languages that are spoken in Northern and Eastern Africa. The Cushitic languages and cultures are mainly found in the Somalis and the Oromos, one of the two main groups inhabiting Ethiopia.44, 45, 46. The Somali and Oromo languages have a high degree of similarity and the two populations share many cultural characteristics. The Somali and Oromo people live in clans with special patterns of marriage and the Somali and Oromo people have complex, interwoven pedigrees.44, 45


European Journal of Human Genetics (advance online publication)

High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages characterized by E3b1, DYS19-11, DYS392-12 in Somali males

Juan J Sanchez et al.

We genotyped 45 biallelic markers and 11 STR systems on the Y chromosome in 201 male Somalis. In addition, 65 sub-Saharan Western Africans, 59 Turks and 64 Iraqis were typed for the biallelic Y chromosome markers. In Somalis, 14 Y chromosome haplogroups were identified including E3b1 (77.6%) and K2 (10.4%). The haplogroup E3b1 with the rare DYS19-11 allele (also called the E3b1 cluster γ) was found in 75.1% of male Somalis, and 70.6% of Somali Y chromosomes were E3b1, DYS19-11, DYS392-12, DYS437-14, DYS438-11 and DYS393-13. The haplotype diversity of eight Y-STRs ('minimal haplotype') was 0.9575 compared to an average of 0.9974 and 0.9996 in European and Asian populations. In sub-Saharan Western Africans, only four haplogroups were identified. The West African clade E3a was found in 89.2% of the samples and the haplogroup E3b1 was not observed. In Turks, 12 haplogroups were found including J2*(xJ2f2) (27.1%), R1b3*(xR1b3d, R1b3f) (20.3%), E3b3 and R1a1*(xR1a1b) (both 11.9%). In Iraqis, 12 haplogroups were identified including J2*(xJ2f2) (29.7%) and J*(xJ2) (26.6%). The data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population - closely related to the Oromos in Ethiopia and North Kenya - with predominant E3b1 cluster γ lineages that were introduced into the Somali population 4000-5000 years ago, and that the Somali male population has approximately 15% Y chromosomes from Eurasia and approximately 5% from sub-Saharan Africa.

That said, I have a real problem with the term Eurasian and Caucasoid. I may have said we do not consider ourselves peoples of the black rock. We are however peoples of the red rock. We are thusly not Caucasoid nor are we Eurasian. These terms are
misleading at best and speak to the original directional evolutionists of the social Darwin age.
It would be a presupposition on your part and an error to equate an indigenous Egyptian's refusal to be described as black -within the context of African perspective- with enmity or loathing for the people of the Black Rock. We enjoy being Africans and fully comprehend the great diversity of Africa. How boring it would be if all the beads were of one colour, one shape and one clay?
 

---

Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
 
Maahes.. Your endless diatribes consists of no more than repetitive rants. I fail to see what selectively random pictures of coastal vs. inner Africans does by way of substantiating your original point of contention. It is as if you present these as some type of irrefutable proof that there was a dichotomy between what you perceive to be "black" or "true negroid", as opposed to what this indigenous black African diversity truly consists of.


Courtesy of Djehuti:


Fulani (West African)


Somali (East African)



Egyptian (North African)


Tutsi (Central African)

quote:

---

Wow. More emotional bloodletting.

---

quote:

---

What I said was to my knowledge no Dinka, Irthet or Mazoi were ever hereditary chiefs of Egypt e.g. Pharaoh.

---

What you said was this:

"To my knowledge there was never a single Black ( as in Dinka, Fur or Nyala peoples of Niger, Sudan and Libya) King that ruled in Egypt.

Nor were there many Negroes ( Round Headed) even present in Dynastic Egypt until fairly late in history."

^Which is redundant. The people who ruled Egypt whom this label is to be applied, were "black Egyptians", not "Black Dinka, Fur or Nyala peoples". What you are implying here is that there were no "black Egyptian kings", even though black Africans are, and always have been the aboriginal population of the Nile valley, so that begs to question who might these non-black African foreigners be who were ruling Egypt? Obviously they weren't the Dinka, Fur or Nyala, because those people are blacks.


Your subtlety only exposes your dishonesty.

As for "Negroes":

Negro - A member of the Negroid race. Not in scientific use.


^So this is again, redundant since we're discussing the non-existence of a non-existent people in ancient Egypt. A concept very foreign in ancient Egypt its self and non-applicable to ancient populations as a whole. If you'd meant to say that these peoples were not related to and continuous with other more southernly African populations, then of course you just don't know what you're talking about:

quote:

---

The nature of the body plan was also investigated by comparing the intermembral, brachial, and crural indices for these samples with values obtained from the literature. No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex. The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983).

---

quote:

---

"The southern affinities with the series are striking given the commonly held or stated classical "racial" views of the Egyptians predict a notable distinction from"Africans". Thus any scheme to label Nubians or all Egyptians as a "Caucasian" monotypic entity is a hypothesis which is easily falsified. Metric analysis clearly suggest in fact that at least southern Egyptian groups were part of indigenous holocene Saharo-Tropical African variation."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Are you mad?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
[QB] Something else that comes to mind here.
One of the problems that some Afrocentrics and their parents the Eurocentrics suffer from is a limited vantage point. Something that has always bothered me about Eurocentrics is that they assume Egypt is a Caucasian utopia. They get off the plane and stare open mouthed in awe at all the dark people walking freely about the place. They say things like " You don't look Egyptian." and the taxi driver retorts " that's funny you don't look Canadian either."
Anyway, the ironic thing here is the subcontinent, that is India, is the other focal point in this human biodiversity puzzle. A Eurocentric tends to think of the Sahara as a melting pot between Arabs and Africans or between Caucasoid Africans and Europe. A more open-minded person will recognize that before any real civilizations were booming in the Near East, populations of Humans were moving along the coasts from India and beyond, across the Yemen bridge to the Horn of Africa. The Semitic language was born from necessity because of this diaspora - this need for India to Speak a Trade Language with Ethiopia and visa versa. Their descendants migrated into the Near East and founded "Arabia". The Saudi Arabian the Saite African- the peoples of Kush Sudan the peoples of the Hindu Kush. I hope that one day everyone will appreciate how the layers of history are deep. One must comprehend how peoples migrated and how they kept their trade routes going long before any civilizations grew from them.

---

quote:

---

Near Eastern languages came from Africa 10,000 years ago
Investigator: Ene Metspalu
by Laura Spinney

Analysis of thousands of mitochondrial DNA samples has led Estonian archeogeneticists to the origins of Arabic. Ene Metspalu of the Department of Evolutionary Biology at Tartu University and the Estonian Biocentre in Tartu, claims to have evidence that the Arab-Berber languages of the Near and Middle East came out of East Africa around 10,000 years ago. She has found evidence for what may have been the last sizeable migration out of Africa before the slave trade. Genetic markers transmitted through either the maternal or paternal line have been used to trace the great human migrations since Homo sapiens emerged in Africa. But attempts to trace the evolution of languages have met with less success, partly because of the impact on languages of untraceable political and economic upheavals. Metspalu and colleagues analyzed inherited variations in a huge number of samples - almost 3000 - of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) taken from natives of the Near East, Middle East and Central Asia, as well as North and East Africa. mtDNA is inherited through the maternal line, and by comparing their data with existing data on European, Indian, Siberian and other Central Asian populations, the researchers were able to create a comprehensive phylogenetic map of maternal lineages diverging from Africa and spreading towards Europe and Asia. Working in collaboration with language specialists, they found that this movement 10,000 years ago, which was probably centred on Ethiopia, could well have been responsible for seeding the Afro-Asiatic language from which all modern Arab-Berber languages are descended. "This language was spoken in Africa 10,000 or 12,000 years ago, "Metspalu told BioMedNet News. "We think it was around that time that carriers brought these Afro-Asiatic languages to the Near East." The language, or its derivatives, later spread much further afield. What could have triggered the movement she can only speculate. One possibility is that increasing desertification was causing famine in Africa and driving hunters further afield in search of animals. Interestingly, the lineages they traced through this 10,000-year-old migration didn't seem to get much further north than modern-day Syria or east of modern-day Iraq. There is no evidence of the lineages in the mtDNA of people from Turkey or Iran, says Metspalu. "We can't understand why this boundary [to the Arab-Berber speaking world] is so sharp," she said. "They came out of Africa, and when they reached Turkey they just stopped." She believes some kind of physical boundary, now vanished, must have impeded them. The same genetic detective work has confirmed archeological evidence that the biggest movement out of Africa occurred around 50,000 years ago - which is when Africans first settled in other continents - and that it originated in a small East African population.

---

quote:

---

The ancient Egyptians were nearly as closely related ethnically speaking to the Somalians and Ethiopians as they were to the peoples of Western India.

---

quote:

---

This is tens of centuries before the first Persians, the first Zorastrians the first Arabians. The peoples of the Subcontinent of India were of a slightly different ethnic makeup in those days. But we don't consider Southern Indians ( the genetic reservoir) to be white. Indeed the paler skinned " Aryans" have been an oppressive reality on the dark skinned indigenous Indians.
Old Egyptians were Africans whose closest relatives lived in Western India and Eastern Africa. Subsequently, so called Aryans arrived and formed a permanent barrier between the ancient cultures.

---

quote:

---

An understanding of this concept shows us clearly that ‘there is no evidence that the region was empty and primarily colonised by non-African outsiders, who had differentiated outside and then returned to Africa’ (emphasis in original). Keita’s summary position is that ‘It is not a question of “African” “influence”; ancient Egypt was organically African. Studying early Egypt in its African context is not “Afrocentric,” but simply correct’

---

quote:

---

It could be argued that the peoples of the Black Rock- the Dinka/Irthet formed a wedge between the ancestors of the Bantu speakers and other branches of their family tree that were left behind in the Nile Valley- In other words, just as Aryans ended the relationship between Ethiopia and India for a time so too could the Black Rock peoples have interupted any ongoing ties between the peoples of West Africa the Bantu speakers and East African lineages descended of the same ancestors.

---

quote:

---

Who knows?

---

quote:

---

One thing is for certain, culture knows boundaries. Languages act as barriers and so do specific cultural dictates. The desert itself makes incursion by non-indigenous peoples unnecessarily risky.

---

quote:

---

Nabta Playa is an internally drained basin that served as an important ceremonial center for nomadic tribes during the early part of 9560 BC. Located 62 miles west of Abu Simbel some 60 miles west of the Nile near the Egyptian-Sudanese border. Nabta contains a number of standing and toppled megaliths........Analysis of human remains suggest migration from sub-Saharan Africa

---

quote:

---

Previous concepts about the origin of the First Dynasty Egyptians as being somehow external to the Nile Valley or less “native” are not supported by archeology. In summary, the Abydos First Dynasty royal tomb contents reveal a notable craniometric heterogeneity. Southerners predominate. The suggestion of previous work, namely that crania with southern and coastal northern patterns might be present in these tombs, has been demonstrated and explained by historical and archaeological data

---

quote:

---

The indigenous inhabitants of the desert be the black, red, brown or ochre yellow-made it highly dangerous.

---

What is even more dangerous is to suggest that they were more closely related to distant Indian populations than with fellow indigenees. As a matter of fact, such diffusionist ideas are border line loony, as demonstrated above.
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
www.touregypt.net/featurestories/yam.htm






You know, it really is your insistence on binding race to geography that is dragging your psueoscience under the sand. There are a diversity of ethnic types in the regions of Egypt, Libya, Sudan and so on. Some and not all of these people are what are referred to by other North-East Africans as People of the Black Rock.

They ( peoples of the Black Rock) are generally speaking, nomadic, cattle cultures. While they are very dark, and very tall-their language group/culture is far-removed and most distinctive from Bantu language/ culture. Most American and many Europeans of African descent are derived of the Bantu speakers. But the Bantu slave economy was based upon ethnic cleansing and the capture of whole tribes within their ever increasing territories. This started some two thousand years ago and long before the first West European slave trader set foot on the continent of Africa. For this reason, American and European "Blacks" may share genes with any number of different people of vastly different language groups and ethnicities. We refer to Africans in the western countries as Blacks. It is an oversimplification.
We call people of Poland Poles or at least Eastern Europeans. We call people from southern Europe, French, Italian, Spanish or at least Mediterranean. But we don't often describe them as white- that is except in America where diversity is something you kill with lysol and bad television.
This does not change the fact that Cushitic speaking peoples of the Black Rock were well known to dynastic Egyptians. We knew them well enough to have names for each and every one of their kingdoms. They knew us well enough to bring their cattle and gold , their ivory and giraffes to Egypt. But let's be clear about something, Nomadic cattle cultures were generally speaking not particularly interested in the pastorilist lifestyle of the Bantu speakers nor of the Nile River inhabitants. An analogy might be the Sioux - Plains Indians - they probably didnt want to rule over the Iroquois Confederacy. The Sioux identified themselves with their freedom and their intimate relationship with the ever changing landscape while the Iroquois were in the habit of altering their habitat to keep comfortable in the face of climatic adversity. One was not more or less civilized than the other. They traded with one another and occasionally fought over territories. We can be certain that they at least occasionally respected one another as human beings cut from the same cloth.

Similarly to the Sioux/Iroquois, we should accept that the Cushites were strictly speaking, a trading culture whose borders were Egypt. They traded with one another. Mind you, the borders are incredibly foreboding- enormous mountains - plateaus in the desert- sand seas- its not like there is a border fence.

Other African ethnicities indigenous to Eastern Africa that are not peoples of the Black Rock but rather Peoples of the Oryx and any one of a dozen other East African ethnicites- described in some literature as long headed peoples- or Nihilotic peoples were and are very dark skinned-they include the Somalians, the Yemenites, the Ethiopian Highlanders and many but not all of the Sudanese. These people live(d) along the coast of Eastern Africa and they were bordered on the west by the Peoples of the Black Rock and to the North by the Peoples of the Red Rock. To be certain, the
Nile Valley to the north was more hospitable to human habitation and whole commnities of diverse ethnic backgrounds were founded and maintained over millenia. The Western Desert on the other hand was/is surrounded by a natural barrier the Great Sand Sea and its endemic tribes are highly protective of incursions into their territories.
Where they were often trading partners with the Peoples of the Black Rock, they were not so fond of the Oryx. There are whole populations of blue black skinned ethnics living as far north as Siwa to this very day. They do not mix with other ethnicities as a rule but this has to do with ancient marriage/land laws and nothing to do with racism, prejudice or anything like that. None of the ethnic tribes are going to mix for the most part. It just isnt feasible. Land is passed down on the mother's side as are water rights. A woman with property and or water is generally going to be a steward of that property. She must pass that land/water on to close kin descended of the same matrlinear ancestress. Marriages between tribes are becoming more and more common but marriages between different tribal clans are almost unheard of- though a woman without land or water rights might marry into a tribal family- she is then viewed as married into the tribe. The territories will not be handed down to her peoples.


Getting back to the issue here- The East Africans that migrate up and down the Nile Valley and back forth from Somalia to India and back- they are a differnt language family and cultural/ethnic group from the peoples of the Black Rock. You might consider them black but that would be an oversimplification of the great antiquity of each respective groups cultural origins. Dark Brown long headed people that are largely pastorilist cattle cultures competing for resources along some territorial boundaries- trading in others with round headed nomadic cattle cultures on one side and with square headed red brown people on another side- this is what has been going on like it or not forever. This is not to say that the ancient Egyptians were Caucasian and that they are a mixture between East African and European. That is not what I am saying at all. I am not saying that the Black Rock peoples were not present in ancient Egypt either. I am not claiming that the peoples of the Oryx, or the Peoples of the Hare were not present in Egypt- they were all most certainly present. But the tribal clan mothers of most dynasties were indigenous Egyptians.
The dynasty fathers that arrived from further south often legitmized their ascendency by marriage with sepat heiresses - endemic to Egypt.
Why? Because the land was passed down from mother to daughter. But some dynasties were largely peopled by Oryx or Hare- to my knowledge no Nyala, fur, Irthet or Dinka ever ruled as sovereigns over Egypt. I don't think they were even slightly interested in such stifling company.
Most of the desert tribes also passed on the cluster **** of over populated cities.


These people certainly have known one another for a very long while. Strict cultural marriage laws have a way of keeping different peoples distinct. This is not a hard and fast rule. Obviously there is genetic introgression along all lines.
I stand by my assertion that no hereditary rulers of the Black Rock ever ruled as soveriegns over the Great House in Egypt. People nearly as dark as them most certainly did. But then I've been repeating myself time and again with that statement. The emotional attachment some have for the assumption of racial prejudice on my part is impressive if not a little disheartening.
What you describe as black is not what I describe as black which is what the original posting on the Egyptian dreams forum was focused on.

While you are an American Black and take umbrage on my position, I am an indigenous Saharan. In my opinion, and this is strictly speaking from my personal perspective, your position is as domineering and misplaced as any Eurocentric's. If Im reading this correctly you are claiming that the indigenous peoples of Egypt are all of the Black Rock or better yet- some mythical race of Bantu speakers that lived in Egypt before everyone else??? In your view everyone else in Egypt entombed or otherwise is admixtured or of recent import? You are also I think- assuming that Negroe should equate with black. The choice of photos I left off with last included endangered indigenous cultures of South East Asia that are clearly blacker than your average African. They are truly Black. I also included Khung! and Orang Asli -one anothers closest genetic relatives yet one is rndemic to Africa and the other Malaysia.
Both have tawny ochre skin.
Both these ancient morphotypes have unique and respective genotypes. Molecular biologists have been able to follow these fascinating peoples trail as they migrated from Africa into southern Asia- tens of thousands of years before Europeans were even on the scene- The so called pygmoids are the ancestors of all- I bring attention to this compelling fact- yet you define my position as basically apologistic of European brainwashing and some sort of hatred for Africans or eexclusion of black peoples?>?


I have a mynah bird that likes to suddenly emote song and limric alot of it distasteful. An elderly woman that owned a bookstore gave him to me when she fell ill. The mynah went from eloquating Frost and bits of the Old Testament to curse words. The other day the guy that shoes my horses cursed at a roan for backing into him- now the Mynah is greeting the day with the term Terd Burglar.
It can't help but make a stern man smile but one has to wonder what his intentions are.
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
"Terrible. Again, why would the Old Egyptians' closest relatives be foreigners who lived thousands of miles away and spoke an entirely different language, when they have people indigenous to the Nile and horn who aren't but a hop,skip, and jump away, and speak very similar languages and with similar cultures, along with exhibiting similar body and facial types? All of this, according to you is just a coincidence at the expense of Indians? Talk about self-hating "Africans".

You really are Eurocentric. India is Africa's sister and there is absolutely no doubt about it.
The reason I wrote that digression was to read your predictable reaction. But then you've never been to Yemen nor Somalia nor have you been to Sudan or Egypt. You don't speak our languages.
You don't eat our foods. You don't share bread with us.
Ethnozoology ever heard of it? Yup- the origins of domestic animals and plants...Great subject matter. For example, myrhh and frankincense came from the Horn of Africa. But where my friend do spices like cinnamon, fennel, and clove derive? Where did the domesticated horse or better yet the genetic strain of domestic horses in Mittani come from? Where did the Ethiopians get bananas?
Where did all those cattle come from anyway?
The truth may be surprising to you.
But anyone shocked that India, Egypt, Ethiopia, Yemen and Somalia are part of one of the worlds most ancient trade routes is a willful ignorant.
Do you know how many words old Egyptian and Tamazight share with Southern Indian dialects?

The Semetic Language was born in Ethiopia and came to fruition in Yemen. You really need to have a look at a map. Yemen bridges India to East Africa.
The Indo-Aryan dialects of the semetic language originate there. Abraham i.e. Ibrahim, i.e., Avrham- in Old Egyptian that means of Brahman.
Son of Brahman that lived in Ur.
But I did no intend for that post to derail the more significant issue.

Earlier I posted a photo of an indiginous Northern Saharan with tawny ochre skin and mongoloid folds around his eyes-pepper corn hair. He and his people are responsible for the majority of the oldest pictographs around the Sahara. I also posted a photo of a Khoisan/Kung! Ethnic from South Africa, also with tawny ochre skin and pepper corn hair- + mongoloid folds around the eyes. I then posted a photo of a group of Orang Asli- endemic to the Malaysian Isthmus of Kra and one of the world's most endangered peoples.

They share haplotypey and even speak similar click dialects even though they are living on two different continents.

I also posted photos of very dark skinned- truly Black skinned people that are endemic to the Andammen Islands and the Nicobar Islands all in South East Asia in the Indian Ocean. They are not in Africa and yet their nearest relatives are in both New Guinea and Africa.

Some people are subconsciously prejudice so Afrocentric they can't help but exclude peoples that don't live in Africa from the so-called Black Race. In one breath this writer is taking my credibility to task because I point out the ancient relationship between India and Egypt.
But that writer skipped over the academic scholarship of the few papers I've provided as references and the photos I've posted as reference. The objective of this dialogue on my part is to open the parameters to include the actual human populations in discussion.
The evolving academic will acknowledge that the first inhabitants of the Sahara migrated well before the Holocene into Southern Asia to become the ancestors of Orang Asli as well as Mongoloids.

We should also aknowledge that there are Black skinned peoples native to Asia, New Guinea and even Tasmania that are not Africans. Yet one would be hard-pressed to distinguish them from "blacks". Is it or is it not an over-simplification to lump these peoples together with Africans? It it or is not an over-simplification to split these peoples away from their near relatives in Africa?
Or will you acknowledge that Eurocentric geographic boundaries are just that- reflections of obessions of empire and conquest?
√
Rhinos live where? Elephants live where? Lions live where? Cheetahs? Leopards? Bovid Antelopes?
Greater Apes? Peacocks? Water Buffalo?

The issue is evolutionary history, geography and ecological barriers. All of that precludes the later major issues of language families and cultures.

When I think about human biodiversity I am thinking on a timeline that includes our earliest hominid ancestors. I can visualize the sequence of events from the volcanism of the Miocene to the flooding/desertification of the Holocene.

Human beings are like other vertebrates dependent upon food, water and shelter to reproduce. Viable populations of humans leave their phsyical remains and signs of their presence in the form of art and handiworks, weapons and pictographs.
As the landscape transforms in time, so too do the
viable populations of humans.

Ancient Egypt was a very different place in predynastic days than it was during the dynastic period and that period was far removed from the realities of the present day obviously.

A non-indigenous Egyptian when asked where he came from will likely quote the Q'uran.

A predynastic Egyptian would probably quote pictographs.

Which one is more relevent? I think it's all relative. Don't you?
 

---

Posted by osiriun (Member # 14297) on :
 
Actually Melanesian people of New Guinea are closer related to Taiwanese people than African.

The Negritoes left Africa a long time ago and as a result are not closely related to Africans as much as Greek people are.
 

---

Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
 

quote:

---

You know, it really is your insistence on binding race to geography that is dragging your psueoscience under the sand.

---

quote:

---

India is Africa's sister

---

India has very little to do with Africa, though Clyde Winters may object to that. lol.. In any event, evidence for such a relationship is always appreciated. Given your linguistic folly, I have no reason to believe you.

quote:

---

The Semetic Language was born in Ethiopia and came to fruition in Yemen. You really need to have a look at a map. Yemen bridges India to East Africa. The Indo-Aryan dialects of the semetic language originate there. Abraham i.e. Ibrahim, i.e., Avrham- in Old Egyptian that means of Brahman. Son of Brahman that lived in Ur. But I did no intend for that post to derail the more significant issue.

---

quote:

---

languages spoken in the Indian subcontinent. The languages of the region are generally classified as belonging to the following families: Indo-European (the Indo-Iranian branch in particular), Dravidian, Austro-Asiatic (Munda in particular), and Sino-Tibetan. Fourteen languages are mentioned in the constitution of India: Hindi, Urdu, Punjabi, Bengali, Oriya, Marathi, Gujarati, Sanskrit, [etc.].....

---

quote:

---

Early I posted a photo of an indiginous Northern Saharan with tawny ochre skin and mongoloid folds around his eyes-pepper corn hair. He and his people are responsible for the majority of the oldest pictographs around the Sahara.

---

I strongly suggest that you take a look at this thread here: OT: Saharan Rock Art

^Similarities in dress, customs, and appearance have already been noted extensively. A lot of these people are ancestors of possibly Fulani, Dogon, and Chadic peoples, as well as early ancient Egyptians and proto-berber-speakers. The vast majority of whom were black Africans, which is more than obvious from the depictions alone. There is no evidence of any people with so-called "Mongoloid eyefolds", etc, which is also seen among the Khoisan.


In conclusion, you've brought us nothing new. More of the same history distortions, bunk race concepts, and hot rhetoric, but no evidence or proof.
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by osiriun:
Actually Melanesian people of New Guinea are closer related to Taiwanese people than African.

The Negritoes left Africa a long time ago and as a result are not closely related to Africans as much as Greek people are.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osiriun:
Actually Melanesian people of New Guinea are closer related to Taiwanese people than African.

The Negritoes left Africa a long time ago and as a result are not closely related to Africans as much as Greek people are.

---

Thank you.. I'm not the only one I see catching all of these elementary factual errors..
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
The Indo-Aryan dialects of the Semetic Language were originally a trade language made up of many borrowed words and terms. The Indians of Western India were integral trade partners with Ethiopia and Egypt. The bridge between them is Yemen. Have a look see.
Perhaps you are blinded by your blackness?


India is closer to Egypt than Most of Africa- hence the genetic and haplotype similarities between Southern Indians and Eastern Africans.
Since the migration between continents was performed almost soley by male humans one should not expect the mtDNA of Indians to show up in Ethiopia. Or the mtDNA of Ethiopians to show up in India. one can however find the mtDNA of Indians and Ethiopians in Egypt, Somalia and Madagascar.

As for the first Saharans- one really needs to at least visit the Sahara before making such grand assertions. These people similar in outward appearance to Khoisan still live throughout the Sahara and they are the generators of the majority of the pictographs there. http://books.google.com/books?id=FrwNcwKaUKoC&pg=PA180&lpg=PA180&dq=saharan+pygmies&source=web&ots=HjcVTeBC74&sig=2-hZxLO9NRhILlqNVd9gwY8QOw0#PPP1,M1

Why are you so skeptical? It never ceases to amaze me how people can come to be experts on another people. Case in point, I remember as a new student at a boarding school entering the library. The librarian looked at me and asked what nationality I was. I said "Egyptian". She said to me " You must be Nubian then." Evidently she had read all about Egypt in books right there in that library and no discussion to the contrary could change her mind. She was a passionate Egyptofile and knew rather book learned a great deal about Egypt. While she never visited -hated the heat - she had her opinions - most based on her late father's intrepetation of the Old Testament- she was nonetheless, Caucasian, a librarian easily thirty years my senior and naturally- right.

I'm from the Northern Eastern Sahara and my family has always lived there and yet you- a westerner are going to try and convince me that your comprehension of the subject matter is somehow more viable?
 

---

Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by SEEKING:

I am amazed that the prime discussants on this site are basically absent from the discussion taking place in this thread.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
The Indo-Aryan dialects of the Semetic Language were originally a trade language made up of many borrowed words and terms. The Indians of Western India were integral trade partners with Ethiopia and Egypt. The bridge between them is Yemen. Have a look see.
Perhaps you are blinded by your blackness?

---

quote:

---

India is closer to Egypt than Most of Africa- hence the genetic and haplotype similarities between Southern Indians and Eastern Africans.

---

quote:

---

Since the migration between continents was performed almost soley by male humans

---

quote:

---

one should not expect the mtDNA of Indians to show up in Ethiopia. Or the mtDNA of Ethiopians to show up in India. one can however find the mtDNA of Indians and Ethiopians in Egypt, Somalia and Madagascar.

---

quote:

---

As for the first Saharans- one really needs to at least visit the Sahara before making such grand assertions. These people similar in outward appearance to Khoisan still live throughout the Sahara and they are the generators of the majority of the pictographs there. http://books.google.com/books?id=FrwNcwKaUKoC&pg=PA180&lpg=PA180&dq=saharan+pygmies&source=web&ots=HjcVTeBC74&sig=2-hZxLO9NRhILlqNVd9gwY8QOw0#PPP1,M1

---

quote:

---

Why are you so skeptical?

---

quote:

---

It never ceases to amaze me how people can come to be experts on another people. Case in point, I remember as a new student at a boarding school entering the library. The librarian looked at me and asked what nationality I was. I said "Egyptian". She said to me " You must be Nubian then." Evidently she had read all about Egypt in books right there in that library and no discussion to the contrary could change her mind. She was a passionate Egyptofile and knew rather book learned a great deal about Egypt. While she never visited -hated the heat - she had her opinions - most based on her late father's intrepetation of the Old Testament- she was nonetheless, Caucasian, a librarian easily thirty years my senior and naturally- right.

---

quote:

---

I'm from the Northern Eastern Sahara and my family has always lived there and yet you- a westerner are going to try and convince me that your comprehension of the subject matter is somehow more viable?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sundiata:
Ironically says the "red rock" who contends that "true blacks" have been isolated beneath the Sahara desert. Of course before being exposed as a pseudoscholar who masters in visual arts more so than African history and migrations, as evidenced by all of those pretty pictures, though lack of substantiation for your claims.[QUOTE]

I never said that Black People were not present in the Sahara. You are projecting your willful ignorance again. Perhaps you should read more carefully? If this misquote of what I have written is evidence that I am a psuedo-scholar what can that make you? You have yet to substantiate or refute a single assertion made in the peer-reviewed papers I've made available as reference of my position. You on the other hand are wearing your genes a little too tight. Any more pressure and that camel's toe may split.

http://www.andaman.org/BOOK/chapter6/text6.htm#haplo

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
"What ethnicities do the “Black Rock” people comprise?"

According to our tribal elders

---

Your "tribal elders" are full of you know what..

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Actually, it's your self-hatred that needs some restraint.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Thank You Mystery Solver for asking objective questions that can actually be quantified.

Bananas:
http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/citation/5/6/273


Cattle:
www.ilri.org/.../Fulldocs/X5442e/x5442e03.htm

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

The Lower Ta-Seti and Inyotef Ta-Seti were Eastern and Western Nilotic respectively- based upon their recorded ceramics and specific cattle breeds.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Eastern Nilotic tribes remain in Southern Yemen and may have arrived there as thoroughly Egyptianized traders in Sabeah.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

There are many trade words shared between Southern Yemenites and Eritreans which in turn are shared as far away as Siwa and Farafra. I've left a link to an online book that discusses Haplotypes as they relate to certain critically endangered Asiatic "Negritos" a term i detest.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Am searching for more references but please do see the relevant paper on the Somalian male haplotypey as it compares and contrasts with those of India, Ethiopia and Egypt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

I don;t know about "Pale Skinned" Fair eyed and Fair haired yes but I've never known of pale skinned save for the many populations where total or partial albinism is common as in Siwa and Bahiriya.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
And if you can actually read objectively - that is not skip through what you don't want to receive
http://www.dnatribes.com/news/2006_05_01_archive.html

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

"What ethnicities do the “Black Rock” people comprise?"

According to our tribal elders and they have been quoted as relevant authorities by Brugsch and others over time, the Peoples of the Black Rock are the Yam and the Irthet who spoke a different language than the Nyala and Fur of Sudan, Egypt's Western Desert and Libya.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

-" What ethnicities do the “Peoples of the Oryx” comprise?"

Again, from the same source, the Wawat, the Setju/

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

-" What ethnicities do the “Nilotic” people comprise?"

I think that Europeans have always called East Africans that speak Nilotic languages Nilotic. This would mean most of the above. However, the Cushitic branches of the East Africans- the Yam and the Fur specifically are not Nilotic nor are they Bantu. The easternmost tribal clans/ethnics- the long headed Oryx people -Wawat, Setju they are not speaking Nilotic but evidentally osteologically speaking they share a common origin. Their ( oryx) pottery is I think called Badarian. There was also another place called Eyrehem that was beleived to be the origin of the first dynastic mothers. It was somewhere in the Ethiopian highlands or Eritrea. This is where we received our Abysinnian Jackals that bred together with the Pygmoid's Central African Basenji would provide the genetic basis of our Egyptian hound stock.

---

Yes, but I'd like to know what *you* understand by "Nilotic" groups; their respective ethnic designations, their languages, where they specifically inhabit, and what sets them apart from groups outside of this, like say; Cushitic speakers, Bantu speakers and so forth. Is there a difference between "Nilotic groups" as you put forth, and "Nilo-Saharan" speakers?

Ps - Please don't forget to cite which scholarly publications back you up.
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
"This is what you're doing, which is why it won't be entertained. I stand by what was stated and am still waiting on evidence that these ancient Egyptians were not black Africans, or that they were more closely related to you, than the "true blacks" that you and your "tribal elders" like to dichotomize."

What? Are you pond fondling me? You're attempting to switch horses. Nice try. You don't even know what a black African is. Dynastic Egyptians were an ethnic and cultural admixture. This has been fully verified by any number of excellant peer-reviewed papers on the subject a few which I have left links to. Where you get off playing the blacker than though game I can only guess.

THe very specific African tribal clans however, played no part in Dynastic Egyptian rule aside from trading partner and or competing rivals of allied vassal kingdoms.

I'm of the mindset that Egypt and most of eastern Sudan were fairly contiguous ethnically and culturally. I believe that this Saharan divide theory is crap. What you refuse to wrap your brain around is an idea that perhaps, we Africans prefer to be known and defined by the terms and names presented to us by our ancestors. We are not what the Europeans call us. We are not living in little boxes in the natural history museum. We are living breathing, steadily evolving people. You don't own us. You don't see past the European's claims. I invite you to meet the land beyond Punt- India the land of the Lotus and you laugh in contempt. Why those people aren't related to Africans... I present you with data to support that assertion that India is as closely related to East Africa as East Africa is to West Africa and again you scoff and pull straw dogs.
The argument I'm attempting to make would clear your head of the anectdated racist theology of the Eurocentric that sees only black and white in the world. I attempted to introduce you to peoples you have probably never thought about- as a challenge- can you care about dark-skinned people that are not living in Africa today? That is indigenous Asiatics or Melenesians? Or are you attached to the continent of Africa as the wellspring of your sense of identity? Your reaction or rather the omission of any interest in these black peoples of Asia suggests to me that you are not capable of comprehending human biodiversity. You are too emotionally attached and are thus not objective about the scientific data that clearly demonstrates that certain haplotypes- gene groups - are fairly endemic to regions within Africa and not shared throughout. Many of these genes seem to travel with language groups.
This is the diversity Im on about.

If you insist on calling Somalians and Ethiopians Black rather than what they call themselves you are in effect negating their self-identities are you not?
They are the ancestors of Egypt and major traders with India for countless centuries.
Our African cattle came from South East Asia. Our bananas the staple of our diets not just the American consumed variety the whole diversity of bananas all originated in South East Asia.

My argument stands, Afrocentric odeology is a reflection of Eurocentric cultural imperialism.
It fails to acknowledge the great relationship between cultures that don't fit in the parameters of greater and lesser of the Victorian era.
It claims the cultures of countries with well documented histories. An Afrocentric can argue that the earliest Egyptians were "black" when an Ecosystematist would point out that at that very point in the history of Africa, the endemic people of the Sahara were these people:

and these people:


They would migrate into Asia to become these peoples:






who in turn would migrate to Tasmania to become these people:

and these people:


Because the Eurocentric pioneers of Australia could only see "Black" they failed to see the significance of the diversity before them. Both indigenous peoples of Tasmania and the Pygmies of Australia are now extinct forever.

European colonialists and before them Aryan conquerors of Persia failed to see the diversity of the " Blacks" of India and they too waged genocide against these Asiatics.

Getting back to Africa- the period of time when the ancestors of these Asiatic "Blacks" left Africa and migrated into Asia and beyond- this is when Blacks dominated the Saharan landscape but at this moment in time, they had yet to evolve into



They would emerge at about the same time as the Asiatic " Blacks" but on the continent of Africa.

This last photo of a Masai illustrates a Nilotic people that most certainly were amongst the founders of pre-dynastic Egypt, especially in Dahkhla and the Western Desert, and some scholars have suggested that the cattle culture of Egypt and Ethiopia is closely related to that of the Masai versus the Dinka.

In this chronology I am attempting to illustrate something paramount about the evolution of human biodiversity within Sahara and adjacent regions.
At the time of human migration out of Africa, the ancestors of soon to be Asiatic "black" races were the dominant peoples. From them all other 'races' evolved in kind.
If you claim to belong to their cultural identity than you must adopt the Asiatic "blacks", the Melenesians and the Tasmanians as well as the Australian Aborigines as one and the same people.
It's a time issue.

As for citations and providing contemporary ethnicities that is pretty silly. I don't see alot of that going on here. You can try and push an Upper Egyptian against a fence but he has grown up pushing the ass end of a water buffalo over a field. We are patient and dedicated to fact.

We are stubborn and butt of many Cairene jokes that use the Saite as the stupid savage in every punch line.

It's ironic that I'm being painted as an apologist here. But what an interesting dialogue has transpired. Thank the God for internet.
At any rate- the Fur are the Darfur. The Nyala are also now pushed down from Libya living only in Siwa and Darfur/Chad. The Oryx - I don't recall enough about the tribes of Ethiopia but will ask a lingual archeologist consultant colleague of mine to present me with that information.

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2003/652/heritage.htm

Regardless, I think we can all note that none are interested in discussing the cattle or the banana even while they are the major staples of East African nutrition. I think that speaks volumes about this 'debate' one in which Westerners project a sense of dispossesion upon East North Africans that refuse to be rolled in the white flour of Europia.
 

---

Posted by Keins (Member # 6476) on :
 
Maahes is constantly contradicting himself on many points that he think are critical. His logic and argument is so inherently flawed that to argue against it, all one has to do is 1) quote his contradictions and 2) post already substantiated and WELL KNOWN FACTS about African history and prehistory. His mentality is so badly distorted and masochistic that he pretends not to see the bigger picture and the bigger truth. He knows that "black rock" in his tribe is a euphemism for "true negro". He understands that the concept "black" includes people who are brown to dark brown. He understands that the data and evidence about the Ancient Egyptians show that they were brown to dark brown (even very dark brown = black). He is just a self hating, kemephobic, African hating, well black African. He is pretending not to understand and playing the ignorance card by restating "they were not black rock". When he says this, however, he is playing a synonymous punning word game with its meaning. The first meaning that they were not a specific MODERN ethnic or tribal group; which they weren't because that is the wrong concept to view these ancient people around and in Ancient Egypt and secondly that they were not "true Negros". If you entertain the "true negro" myth and suspend disbelief he is also wrong on that end as well. Studies do show that about 1/3 of the first dynasty had what some called the mythical true negro facial skeleton and the ancient Egyptian as a whole were also "super-negro" in terms of skeletal body plan.

Maahes your plead to ignorance is not going to save you!

Interesting thread.
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
Zakaria Goneim believed that Sekhmekhet and other ruling caste lineages of the old dynasties were most closely related to the "Fuzzies" or Bejas/ Ptjaywhw of the Eastern Sudan and Upper Egypt. The vast majority of Saite are thusly derived of Ptjaywhw/ Fuzzy stock. Another peoples that originally came from Itjay and Farafra and throughout the entire Sahara are the Haritins - closely allied to the Tuareg and Siwan Tamazight "Berbers".
These peoples were brought from Eastern Africa, westward with the expansion of Islam and slavery.
anyone that meets a Haritan will readily recognize the characteristically African features.

Any one in the west that would see either Haritan or Bejas would say-"Black" but that would be an oversimplification. The Europeans were hard pressed to acknowledge these "blacks" as indigenous Saharans so they took to calling them blacks and we all know what happened when the Mahdist rebels got all worked up- we are still dealing with some of it.
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
nthropology is not my area of expertise. However, I do believe this is a
reasonable approach to the issue of race.

A dimension of this so-called debate that distrurbs me are the implicit and
sometimes explicit assertions by some that race is a non-issue, that it
doesn't matter. I have to wonder if these individuals practice what they
preach. Sure race matters. It matters for all of us.

On the related topic of racism I believe is not monolithic but multi-faceted
and very natural if viewed within the context of obtaining some real or
perceived benefit that allows a particular group or individual to thrive or
have advantage over others. A one Mr. Howard Schwartz articulated well the
phenomena of racism as it pertains to the individual and I quote:

"From a psychoanalytic point of view, racism is a form of projective
identification. Roughly that means that certain ways of seeing ourselves
that are unacceptable to us are projected outward onto others where we can
try to control them. It is a way of preserving our fantasy of our own
perfection. In the case of racism, unacceptable ideas about the self are
projected onto members of another race, which is then hated and attacked, as
if we could destroy those hated parts of ourselves by destroying the members
of the other race. An individual who structures his or her life on the
basis of this projective identification is a racist.

It's important to note, though, that the basic psychological process has
nothing to do with race. Anything outside the self will do: people who
believe differently than we do, another nation, indeed, even our own nation,
seen as a malevolent force outside ourselves. Our parents can suffice, or
our students, or our spouses. For that matter, racists themselves can serve
as a focus for our projective identification, which may magnify their power
and their malevolence and cause us to see them where they are not.

The point here is that projective identification is basically an
intra-psychic process which comes to look like a relationship to others
because we cannot accept it as an intra-psychic process. It is, moreover,
something which, if we are honest with ourselves about ourselves, we can all
find ourselves engaging in. Fact is, the capacity to be honest with oneself
about oneself is the best and maybe the only means of relinquishing
projective identification. It can also help us greatly in appreciating the
substratum of our common, flawed humanity."

Racism appears to be a collection of behaviors and not a single entity.

Charles Curtis
 

---

Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
 
^I don't have the patience right now to answer the same repetition and truth by assertion fallacies. I only hope that you go back and view what has already been discussed, while also browsing this forum a bit more as you may learn something new and find that a lot of your pre-conceived notions and beliefs aren't well grounded in the available data.

Two things I'll quickly address:

1)Austrics and Melanesians are among some of the most genetically distant people on earth, in comparison to Africans given their early migration out of the continent and subsequent isolation, so you attributing a recent African identity to them is just foolish. Africans far and wide are more closely related to European Nords than they are to most Melanesians, Austrics, etc... Your 1 dimensional world view however, only sees phenotype ("black"), and therefore assume that there is some type of relationship here, basing entire false histories on this assumption.

2) The original Saharans are depicted here and all over this thread; it isn't up to debate what they looked like since they left images behind for all to see. - ot: Saharan rock art


^And that's about all I have to say for now.. It's hard to enlighten anyone to anything when they feel they've learned all there is to know, when in your case, Maahes, that is so far from the truth. Keins is also dead on about you constantly contradicting yourself, but I won't get into that again.
 

---

Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Keins:
Maahes is constantly contradicting himself on many points that he think are critical. His logic and argument is so inherently flawed that to argue against it, all one has to do is 1) quote his contradictions and 2) post already substantiated and WELL KNOWN FACTS about African history and prehistory. His mentality is so badly distorted and masochistic that he pretends not to see the bigger picture and the bigger truth. He knows that "black rock" in his tribe is a euphemism for "true negro". He understands that the concept "black" includes people who are brown to dark brown. He understands that the data and evidence about the Ancient Egyptians show that they were brown to dark brown (even very dark brown = black). He is just a self hating, kemephobic, African hating, well black African. He is pretending not to understand and playing the ignorance card by restating "they were not black rock". When he says this, however, he is playing a synonymous punning word game with its meaning. The first meaning that they were not a specific MODERN ethnic or tribal group; which they weren't because that is the wrong concept to view these ancient people around and in Ancient Egypt and secondly that they were not "true Negros". If you entertain the "true negro" myth and suspend disbelief he is also wrong on that end as well. Studies do show that about 1/3 of the first dynasty had what some called the mythical true negro facial skeleton and the ancient Egyptian as a whole were also "super-negro" in terms of skeletal body plan.

Maahes your plead to ignorance is not going to save you!

Interesting thread.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Our African cattle came from South East Asia.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Our bananas the staple of our diets not just the American consumed variety the whole diversity of bananas all originated in South East Asia.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

As for citations and providing contemporary ethnicities that is pretty silly. I don't see alot of that going on here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Regardless, I think we can all note that none are interested in discussing the cattle or the banana even while they are the major staples of East African nutrition. I think that speaks volumes about this 'debate' one in which Westerners project a sense of dispossesion upon East North Africans that refuse to be rolled in the white flour of Europia.

---

quote:

---

he Tunjur, or Tungur, are a Muslim people estimated around 176.000 people, living in central Darfur, a province of Sudan. They are mainly farmers, and closely associated with the Fur, even if differently from these they have been fully Arabised. As the Fur and the Zaghawa, since the start of the Darfur conflict in February 2003 many Tunjur have been displaced and some killed. A number of Tunjur has taken part to the fight against the Sudanese government fighting under the banners of the Sudan Liberation Movement (SLM).

[edit] Fragments of a history

Historically, the Tunjur were one of the ruling dynasties of Darfur, ca. 1200-1600 AD. Little is known about them, or about their predecessors (the Daju) or their successors (the Keira), beyond the fact that they were probably centralised, slave-based polities sharing a fondness for stone walling, and the timing of Islamisation is unclear.

It is not known why the Tunjur dynasty collapsed, apparently in the late sixteenth century; oral tradition suggests that the last Tunjur ruler Shau Dorshid was “driven out by his own subjects because of his dispiriting habit of making them cut the tops off mountains for him to build palaces on” (Balfour Paul, 1955, 13). His capital is said to have been the site of Ain Farah, which lies in the Furnung Hills some 130 kilometres north-west of El Fasher and comprises large-scale stone and brick walling. It has an enduring appeal and has been visited or described many times. Ain Farah moved one author to quote Macaulay – “like an eagle’s nest that hangs on the crest”, for it is built some 100 metres above the spring, is characterised by several hundred brick and stone structures and terraces, and is defended by steep ridges and by a massive stone wall three or four kilometres long. There is a brick and stone edifice which appears to have served as a mosque, a large stone group which may have served as a public building, and a main group on the highest point of the ridge, described variously as a royal residence or military defence.

Archaeological work is still in its beginning stages, but survey of a sample of houses and excavation of a grave was undertaken by Mohammed (1986) during his survey of Darfur. The grave contained a flexed burial and over 200 iron beads, an ostrich eggshell necklace, a perforated cowrie shell, and iron jewellery. One of the corroded iron objects yielded a surprisingly early date (1500 +/- 200 bp, Q 3155), falling at least six and perhaps as many as eleven centuries before the likely time of the Tunjur; Mohammed interprets this as signifying a pre-Islamic presence and continuation into Islamic times.

---

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunjur

The Sudan has one of the greatest concentration of archaeological sites spanning from deep pre-history right up to modern times and all of it is being SYSTEMATICALLY destroyed. This is a perfect example of what has happened across Africa in the last 500 years, a SYSTEMATIC destruction of African people, history and culture, which only produces the fragmented and destructive mindset and personalities that seem to be prominent in Africa today and that of course was the whole intent.
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Some of Maahes not black brown Egyptians and Oasis dwellers:





From: http://www.farhorizon.com/Africa/oases-of-western-egypt.htm
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
I can see that alot of writers on this forum prescribe to a them and us mentality.

Nothing I write here is actually read, suggesting that the comprehension level of my writing is low or the readers are only speed reading/cherry picking what I'm writing.

But then it doesn't really matter. I know what I am and you are angry with Egyptians for stating the obvious.
We are Egyptians- not black, not brown just EGYPTIAN.


Genetics and domestic cattle origins
Daniel G. Bradley, Ronan T. Loftus, Patrick Cunningham, David E. MacHugh
email: Daniel G. Bradley (dbradley@tcd.ie)
Daniel G. Bradley is Lecturer, Patrick Cunningham is Professor of Animal Genetics, and Ronan T. Loftus and David E. MacHugh are Research Fellows in the Department of Genetics, Trinity College Dublin. As a group they have been investigating the genetic diversity of domestic cattle for almost a decade. Department of Genetics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland.

Abstract
Genetics has the potential to provide a novel layer of information pertaining to the origins and relationships of domestic cattle. While it is important not to overstate the power of archeological inference from genetic data, some previously widespread conjectures are inevitably contradicted with the addition of new information. Conjectures regarding domesticated cattle that fall into this category include a single domestication event with the development of Bos indicus breeds from earlier Bos taurus domesticates; the domestication of a third type of cattle in Africa having an intermediate morphology between the two taxa; and the special status of the Jersey breed as a European type with some exotic influences. In reality, a wideranging survey of the genetic variation of modern cattle reveals that they all derive from either zebu or taurine progenitors or are hybrids of the two. The quantitative divergence between Bos indicus and Bos taurus strongly supports a predomestic separation; that between African and European taurines also suggests genetic input from native aurochsen populations on each continent. Patterns of genetic variants assayed from paternally, maternally, and biparentally inherited genetic systems reveal that extensive hybridization of the two subspecies is part of the ancestry of Northern Indian, peripheral European, and almost all African cattle breeds. In Africa, which is the most extensive hybrid zone, the sexual asymmetry of the process of zebu introgression into native taurine breeds is strikingly evident. © 1998 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

Digital Object Identifier (DOI)

10.1002/(SICI)1520-6505(1998)6:3<79::AID-EVAN2>3.0.CO;2-R About DOI


The domestication of bananas took place in southeastern Asia. Many species of wild bananas still occur in New Guinea, Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines. Recent archaeological and palaeoenvironmental evidence at Kuk Swamp in the Western Highlands Province of Papua New Guinea suggests that banana cultivation there goes back to at least 5000 BC, and possibly to 8000 BC. [4] This would make the New Guinean highlands the place where bananas were first domesticated. It is likely that other species of wild bananas were later also domesticated elsewhere in southeastern Asia.
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Maahes,

You are the only one speaking nonsense about us versus them in ancient Egypt being based around a people with NO amount of brown skin. The ancient Egyptians depicted themselves as brown and there are many brown and even dark brown, ie black Egyptians in Egypt to this day. Therefore, whatever you are talking it is purely rhetorical nonsense and has no basis in fact concerning the ethnic history and diversity of features along the ancient or modern Nile Valley and Sahara.

So you have now changed from brown isn't black to no brown at all. All of which is indicative of a mind desperate to purge reality from the history of the Nile Valley.

The ancient Egyptians came in a wide array of shapes and sizes, but many of them during the dynastic period were QUITE BROWN from light, to medium to very dark brown, with a good number and probably most being in the medium to dark category in the Old, Middle and New Kingdom. The rhetoric you are speaking of goes against all of the facts.
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
I misspoke. I meant to write Black or White and wrote instead Black or Brown which is nonsense considering I am certainly dark brown. Regardless, the manner in which you attack proves to me we are not one and the same people. Where I come from we use our manners to encourage the best in others. We don't selectively choose fragments of dialogue and behave like a troop of baboons on a leopard.
Your emotional teeth baring is bare assed and hysterical. I stand by my assertions. I am what I am.

You can make any claim that you wish to regarding MY ancestors. It won't make any difference in the world today or tommorow. They are my ancestors and this is my culture. I don't mind sharing my culture with you. I don't mind collaborating with people of other cultures but in a time and place when Americans are detested the world over for being irrationally rigid thinkers, one would hope that the more educated amongst them would resist the urge to dominate every discussion with racist dogma. One day soon, you will I hope and pray, wake up and realize how much of your masters' ideological methedology- the manner in which you debate your views- they are not objective-you are prejudiced and entitled to your views.
Welcome to the rat race boys.


If any person on this forum would like to actually discuss Egypt's 18th Dynasty as it relates to the film please do write me a personal message.

Anyone else reading this thread that is left confused by confusion
all you need is LOVE. If you are a budding Afrocentric you might want to read:
The History and Geography of Human Genes
By L. L. (Luigi Luca) Cavalli-Sforza, Paolo Menozzi, Alberto Piazza
There is a fairly extensive online version you can peruse through.
 

---

Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
I misspoke. I meant to write Black or White and wrote instead Black or Brown which is nonsense considering I am certainly dark brown. Regardless, the manner in which you attack proves to me we are not one and the same people. Where I come from we use our manners to encourage the best in others. We don't selectively choose fragments of dialogue and behave like a troop of baboons on a leopard.
Your emotional teeth baring is bare assed and hysterical. I stand by my assertions. I am what I am.

You can make any claim that you wish to regarding MY ancestors. It won't make any difference in the world today or tommorow. They are my ancestors and this is my culture. I don't mind sharing my culture with you. I don't mind collaborating with people of other cultures but in a time and place when Americans are detested the world over for being irrationally rigid thinkers, one would hope that the more educated amongst them would resist the urge to dominate every discussion with racist dogma. One day soon, you will I hope and pray, wake up and realize how much of your masters' ideological methedology- the manner in which you debate your views- they are not objective-you are prejudiced and entitled to your views.
Welcome to the rat race boys.


If any person on this forum would like to actually discuss Egypt's 18th Dynasty as it relates to the film please do write me a personal message.

Anyone else reading this thread that is left confused by confusion
all you need is LOVE. If you are a budding Afrocentric you might want to read:
The History and Geography of Human Genes
By L. L. (Luigi Luca) Cavalli-Sforza, Paolo Menozzi, Alberto Piazza
There is a fairly extensive online version you can peruse through.

---

quote:

---

Anyone else reading this thread that is left confused by confusion

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Oh my - You guys are really lame.
My family members are all Africans. There are many different ethnicities of Africans. You are deluded if you believe that all Africans are Black. But then I doubt that any of you know what Black people even look like. American Blacks are not the Dinka, they are not the Irthet and certainly not the Yam or MAzoi. But why am I even attempting to have this dialogue with you. Have you ever been to Africa? Have you ever lived in the Sahara? Obviously you haven't because you are confusing colour with ethnicity and culture. It's not your fault that you come from a racist country.
But I logged on here because someone working on the film told me I aught to. I almost regret that now. A few people have completely derailed the intellectual conversation and turned it into a stupidity fest.
What is your objective? You want to tell an Egyptian that she or he is Black? Go ahead. I wrote a film that places American Blacks in major parts as Egyptians. This should speak to my acceptance of Egypt as an African country.
In America you can fence off other countries and keep unwanted ethnic types from mixing into your population. In Egypt we have no such fences and never have. The only barrier is the desert and the river. Sorry to leave off this way but I know longer see any need to waste my time here.
I am an academic and spend months at a time in the refugee camps of Chad, Somalia, Ethiopia and Eritrea. I don't have the time or the interest in enabling the sort of willful ignorance that Eurocentrics/Afrocentrics tend to perpetuate.

The continent of Africa is vast. There are indigenous peoples of the continent with blonde hair and light eyes. There are indigenous people with yellow skin and diminutive stature with mongoloid folds around the eyes. There are indiginous people with blue black skin whgose average height is well over 5'10". There are indiginous Africans with reddish brown skin whose average height is under six feet. I could go on and on here. But I can't because I'm very very busy. Good Luck.

http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/history_in_africa/v032/32.1keita.pdf.

---

• Black Africans are indigenous to *all* of Africa and to every part of that continent

• Most modern day North Africans including Egyptians are mixed. Especially Egyptians considering all the invasions and immigrations that happened throughout its history..

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

---

Yet you deny the two facts above and seem to go with the Hawass fantasy of non-black yet indigenous Africans. Now how lame is that?!
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
It is also a known fact that people in Lower (northern) Egypt are more mixed than people in Upper Egypt, especially in urban areas like Cairo.

Which is why Lower Egyptians like these...









^ Who look obviously mixed, look different from rural Saidi like these below...








 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ And it is the rural Fellahin and Sa'idi of Upper Egypt who best represent their ancient ancestors who were indeed black.











And to add insult to your injury, your ancient Egyptian ancestors even called themselves 'black people'!!
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Another good video showing the non black brown Africans of Egypt around Luxor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZRJIRPCPNc

another one, that isn't as clear:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT9TPNqENsE

And a nice long one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbBgA2xpMdk

And, keep in mind, I can also show you videos of people who look JUST AS BLACK in Sudan and the Sahara with similar features and complexions, which means the diversity in Egypt is no SPECIAL distinct "race" unto itself.

Ohh. Wait I found one YOU might like. I guess this is what you call the typical Sudanese Nubian, not black African:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gebUGY6R1nE
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
More UN black brown Africans:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4daTQxNUNM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V794dRXSIIg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmfpRtdjSPc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42MYyNoaYQ0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id_3pzPjTd0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvOaYBS6LB8
 

---

Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

But then it doesn't really matter. I know what I am and you are angry with Egyptians for stating the obvious.
We are Egyptians- not black, not brown just EGYPTIAN.


Genetics and domestic cattle origins
Daniel G. Bradley, Ronan T. Loftus, Patrick Cunningham, David E. MacHugh
email: Daniel G. Bradley (dbradley@tcd.ie)
Daniel G. Bradley is Lecturer, Patrick Cunningham is Professor of Animal Genetics, and Ronan T. Loftus and David E. MacHugh are Research Fellows in the Department of Genetics, Trinity College Dublin. As a group they have been investigating the genetic diversity of domestic cattle for almost a decade. Department of Genetics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland.

Abstract
Genetics has the potential to provide a novel layer of information pertaining to the origins and relationships of domestic cattle. While it is important not to overstate the power of archeological inference from genetic data, some previously widespread conjectures are inevitably contradicted with the addition of new information. Conjectures regarding domesticated cattle that fall into this category include a single domestication event with the development of Bos indicus breeds from earlier Bos taurus domesticates; the domestication of a third type of cattle in Africa having an intermediate morphology between the two taxa; and the special status of the Jersey breed as a European type with some exotic influences. In reality, a wideranging survey of the genetic variation of modern cattle reveals that they all derive from either zebu or taurine progenitors or are hybrids of the two. The quantitative divergence between Bos indicus and Bos taurus strongly supports a predomestic separation; that between African and European taurines also suggests genetic input from native aurochsen populations on each continent. Patterns of genetic variants assayed from paternally, maternally, and biparentally inherited genetic systems reveal that extensive hybridization of the two subspecies is part of the ancestry of Northern Indian, peripheral European, and almost all African cattle breeds. In Africa, which is the most extensive hybrid zone, the sexual asymmetry of the process of zebu introgression into native taurine breeds is strikingly evident. © 1998 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Wiley-Liss, Inc.

Digital Object Identifier (DOI)

10.1002/(SICI)1520-6505(1998)6:3<79::AID-EVAN2>3.0.CO;2-R About DOI


The domestication of bananas took place in southeastern Asia. Many species of wild bananas still occur in New Guinea, Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines. Recent archaeological and palaeoenvironmental evidence at Kuk Swamp in the Western Highlands Province of Papua New Guinea suggests that banana cultivation there goes back to at least 5000 BC, and possibly to 8000 BC. [4] This would make the New Guinean highlands the place where bananas were first domesticated. It is likely that other species of wild bananas were later also domesticated elsewhere in southeastern Asia.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Oh my - You guys are really lame.
http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/history_in_africa/v032/32.1keita.pdf.

---

And oh my, my suspensions were correct! You are just like Masreyya, a former Egyptian poster in here who denied that the ancient Egyptians (her ancestors) as indigenous Africans were black and tried to claim that modern (foreign-mixed) Egyptians are the same as her ancient ancestors.

You relegate true black Africans to more southerly groups like "Dinka"! LOL.

Here is some news for you:

• Black Africans are indigenous to *all* of Africa and to every part of that continent

• Most modern day North Africans including Egyptians are mixed. Especially Egyptians considering all the invasions and immigrations that happened throughout its history..

Hence the diversity in complexions and features that you yourself presented

---

Yet you deny the two facts above and seem to go with the Hawass fantasy of non-black yet indigenous Africans. Now how lame is that?! [/qb][/QUOTE]
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 


Oh yeah, and while I agree with Maahes that the Tunisian actor above is not "mulatto" (and such a label is a white racist connotation anyway), it is easy to see why someone would call him that since he like many North Africans are mixed being of indigenous (black) African ancestry with West Asian and/or European ancestry.

like the Auodad Tunisian woman:



Here is another Tunisian woman from rural Djerba who is of a more 'pristine' type that few people rarely see:


 

---

Posted by SuWeDi (Member # 12519) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB]

Oh yeah, and while I agree with Maahes that the Tunisian actor above is not "mulatto"...

---

Eh no, this guy is Maahes himself!


YESSSSS!
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Are you for real??! LOL
 

---

Posted by Nadeed (Member # 14367) on :
 
the american adoons are trying to force the racial concepts that their euro masters have taught them onto horn and north africans. i'm glad that there are people on this forum who are finally putting these jareers in their place.
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
Hmm.
I see that this is quickly going somewhere.
Not certain where and I don't think it takes a person of average IQ to comprehend why this dialogue isn't as productive as it aught to be.
What is your objective?
What is mine?

I won't speak for yours as it seems pretty clear that you in the spin zone are attempting to ignite your own straw dogs.

My objective should be clear. I intend to educate Westerners with my ancestors history.
My ancestors are East Africans from North Africa. We Africans do not refer to one another or ourselves as Black People. We prefer to be described as members of our respective tribal clans, tribes, religious groups or nationalities. You in America have no such tribal identification and this lack of a self-identity may be painful and even confusing for you. I feel for you and have empathy. It does not diminish in any capacity
my sense of identity or the confidence that I place in our ancient oral histories. In my opinion,the terminology and nomenclature you've adopted here in many instances, is that of Eurocentric reductionists. It may read patronizing or even condescending to some of you. I can not be responsible for yoru emotional maturity. My opinions can have no impact on your sense of identity because I am not attempting to take anything away from you. To the contrary it is my intent to contribute to your understanding. But like many young people, you probably think you know everything there is to be known. Moreover, based upon the examples of your scholarship on this thread, those that I would classify as detractors of my position of human biodiversity before afrocentrism- their scholarship appears tainted with subjective emotionalism. They project a seething enmity that stems from their own experiences as Americans, descended of the Bantu/English Colonialist slave culture.
But you should know, many Africans consider American "blacks" for lack of a better term, to be the chosen ones. Look at the lives you lead compared with your relatives in Benin or Sierra Leone, Ivory Coast or Niger. Look at the great potential your lives contain compared with those of the vast majority of African youths living in Africa at this very moment.

I am attempting to not parse words here. Candidly speaking, Americans of African descent are helping perpetuate violence and materialism across the globe- just like their "white oppressors".
You are Americans after all. Prescribing to the rigid prejudices of Victorian era slave apologists
is a dead end. It has been for a very long while.
The Victorians were hard pressed to acknowledge tribal ethnicites in Africa. They preferred instead to group all Africans as Negroes.
One day you may be free of these shackles. Until then you will suffer from the delusion of a Black Africa.

I've repeated myself repeatedly that there is and always has been without any doubt the presence of Black Africans in the Sahara and Egypt itself.
As I have freely shared with you , while in the USA if anyone were to ask, I describe myself- define myself as BLACK> but this is a cultural identification . My expereince in America before 911 at any rate, was that of a Black American. White Americans in the rural region where I lived from age 2-13 had never seen any African descended person other than myself. I was the subject of endless racism including violence and harrasement, hospitalization from injuries at 11- I don't need to defend my self-identity as a Black American. When I am amongst other Black Americans as an adult in the USA in large cities like Chicago or New York, Boston or Los Angeles, there is a presupposition on the part of many young Black people that I am not "Black". " What you mixed with?" I often hear. There is a preconception that I must be mixed but both of my parents are Egyptians and half the year when I am living amongst members of my familial tribe in the Western desert, I find comfort in that I look like everyone else. We all look alike. I see children at every age stage that could have been me at any moment. No one asks me if I am Mixed because we have been living in the same valley as long as anyone can remember. We live in a valley after which we are all named. Members of our people have contributed tissue and blood samples for academic studies of population genetics including human biodiversity project that I've provided a link for.
Some of you are assuming that because I write historical fiction screenplays that this is my training and vocation in life, when in fact, I am an evolutionary biologist, a wildlife conservationist and veterinary technician by training. These are the subjects that I earned my degrees in higher education...
I also write documentaries and natural history essays. And as i've mentioned repeatedly, my greatest passion is humanitarian aid and endangered indigenous cultures.
Have any of you actually been to Africa?
What do you think you would experience in Darfur?
Would you be sensitive enough to write down the tribal affiliation of the human beings under your responsibility- the displaced people living in a refugee camp that have come for aid?
Would you accept what the woman said to you about her origins? If she were Fur and claimed so would you accept that? Or would you insist on writing down Black instead? If you were obliged to make a decision about translocating an entire village of Nyala ethnics into a refugee camp, would you be sensitive enough to insure that they were not crowded into a camp packed with Fur, even while the two share common physical features and skin tone- the Nyala are originally from Libya- they were shoved down into Darfur in history. They don't get along with the Fur. They are not one and the same people even if they share ancestors.
Being Americans you have a difficult time comprehending what a Black African is. Because I know Africa well. Because I live there half the year and travel throughout the continent, because I spend a great deal of my time amongst Africans of widely different ethnicities, languages and cultures, I cannot prescribe to your great generalizations. It you not I that has a self-loathing deeply burned into your psyche.
There is nothing but violence and suffering that I detest about Africans. And one can't blame the victim for suffering or being the scapegoat for misplaced enmity. Based upon some of your posts, an objective mind might come to the conclusion that you suffer from presuppositional bias- one that links hatred for people of specific skin colour or features, culture and/or language e.g. racism with African pride.
In other words, my great love and understanding of Africans, my great passion to share my appreciation of our ancient roots and human biodiversity is being misunderstood by an emotionally vulnerable group who have inferiority complexes.

When I assert that no Peoples of the Black Rock have been hereditary chiefs or sovereign rulers in Dynastic Egypt I am confident that the majority of actual Egyptologists of every different bias will agree with me. When I assert that Nilotic ethnicities have always been present in Egypt and that they have indeed been foudners of whole generations of dynasties you choose to ignore that because I cannot describe these peoples as "black". Not because I detest black people. Not because I want to take anything away from black people- these are your own misconsceptions founded upon a degree of willful ignorance.
Your definition of Black People belongs to Eurocentrics. My definition of Black People comes from my status as an indigenous Saharan.
I know something about these respective groups.
You may recognize traits like skin colour and facial features that you've been conditioned to accept as "Negroid". I do not accept this anectdated racial ideology. I don not beleive in the construct of "Negroe". I believe that there are many different ethnic types originally endemic to different widely separated regions of Africa.
Peoples that you might recognize as "Black" in the USA are not black but brown and not because there is something wrong or inferior with being black mind you. We are not black anymore than you are.
You think you are black because your masters told you that you were. You self identify with this blackness even while it is an over-generalization that does little to acknowledge other "black" peoples that live throughout the world.
If we are to acknowledge the non-African "blacks" as members of our clique, then we can make a statement that the majority of Africa, Asia and OCeania were "black" originally.

My inclusion of India and "Negritos" in this thread is to throw light on the Afrocentrism - the biased world view of minds that attempt to overemphasize Africa just as Europeans overemphasized Europe in their worldview.
There is more than just black and brown and white. History and human biodiversity cannot be defined in narrow racialist terminology any more than the evolutionary history of bananas or cattle.
We are biological organisms. Science should not enable directional evolutionism and social darwinism. It should help enlighten the collective conscience recognize the global human condition.
The universal human family. Not greater nor lesser than, just equal and as such significant for our own respective histories.
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Maahes,

It is a simple point. A brown skinned person of African descent IN OUR OUTSIDE of Africa is called black because of their skin complexion. It is not a statement of culture, ethnicity, language or "race". All of this long winded arguing is meaningless, especially when one does not apply the same standard anywhere else. Is white European a controversial term? Is it controversial in Southern Europe? Is it controversial in Northern Europe or Central Europe? Does anyone consider the term white as a statement of one global culture, identity, language or ethnicity? No. Therefore, trying to pretend that black is such a statement of common global culture, identity, ethnicity, language or nationality among all the various populations of brown skinned peoples anywhere in the world is a reflection of your own MISLED beliefs about the word, not our misapplication of it.

Bottom line, unless you can prove that black means a single ethnicity, language, culture, nationality or a shared set of the same across any population in or out of Africa then your whole premise is totally baseless and unfounded.
 

---

Posted by Nadeed (Member # 14367) on :
 
Maahes

quote:

---

When I am amongst other Black Americans as an adult in the USA in large cities like Chicago or New York, Boston or Los Angeles, there is a presupposition on the part of many young Black people that I am not "Black". " What you mixed with?" I often hear. There is a preconception that I must be mixed but both of my parents are Egyptians and half the year when I am living amongst members of my familial tribe in the Western desert, I find comfort in that I look like everyone else.

---

quote:

---

One day you may be free of these shackles.

---

how about maybe never.
 

---

Posted by Nadeed (Member # 14367) on :
 
doug m

quote:

---

It is a simple point. A brown skinned person of African descent IN OUR OUTSIDE of Africa is called black because of their skin complexion. It is not a statement of culture, ethnicity, language or "race". All of this long winded arguing is meaningless, especially when one does not apply the same standard anywhere else. Is white European a controversial term? Is it controversial in Southern Europe? Is it controversial in Northern Europe or Central Europe? Does anyone consider the term white as a statement of one global culture, identity, language or ethnicity? No. Therefore, trying to pretend that black is such a statement of common global culture, identity, ethnicity, language or nationality among all the various populations of brown skinned peoples anywhere in the world is a reflection of your own MISLED beliefs about the word, not our misapplication of it.

Bottom line, unless you can prove that black means a single ethnicity, language, culture, nationality or a shared set of the same across any population in or out of Africa then your whole premise is totally baseless and unfounded.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
Hmm.
I see that this is quickly going somewhere.
Not certain where and I don't think it takes a person of average IQ to comprehend why this dialogue isn't as productive as it aught to be.
What is your objective?
What is mine?

I won't speak for yours as it seems pretty clear that you in the spin zone are attempting to ignite your own straw dogs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

My objective should be clear. I intend to educate Westerners with my ancestors history.
My ancestors are East Africans from North Africa. We Africans do not refer to one another or ourselves as Black People. We prefer to be described as members of our respective tribal clans, tribes, religious groups or nationalities.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

You in America have no such tribal identification and this lack of a self-identity may be painful and even confusing for you. I feel for you and have empathy. It does not diminish in any capacity
my sense of identity or the confidence that I place in our ancient oral histories. In my opinion,the terminology and nomenclature you've adopted here in many instances, is that of Eurocentric reductionists. It may read patronizing or even condescending to some of you. I can not be responsible for yoru emotional maturity. My opinions can have no impact on your sense of identity because I am not attempting to take anything away from you. To the contrary it is my intent to contribute to your understanding. But like many young people, you probably think you know everything there is to be known. Moreover, based upon the examples of your scholarship on this thread, those that I would classify as detractors of my position of human biodiversity before afrocentrism- their scholarship appears tainted with subjective emotionalism. They project a seething enmity that stems from their own experiences as Americans, descended of the Bantu/English Colonialist slave culture.
But you should know, many Africans consider American "blacks" for lack of a better term, to be the chosen ones. Look at the lives you lead compared with your relatives in Benin or Sierra Leone, Ivory Coast or Niger. Look at the great potential your lives contain compared with those of the vast majority of African youths living in Africa at this very moment.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

I am attempting to not parse words here. Candidly speaking, Americans of African descent are helping perpetuate violence and materialism across the globe- just like their "white oppressors".
You are Americans after all. Prescribing to the rigid prejudices of Victorian era slave apologists
is a dead end. It has been for a very long while.
The Victorians were hard pressed to acknowledge tribal ethnicites in Africa. They preferred instead to group all Africans as Negroes.
One day you may be free of these shackles. Until then you will suffer from the delusion of a Black Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

I've repeated myself repeatedly that there is and always has been without any doubt the presence of Black Africans in the Sahara and Egypt itself.
As I have freely shared with you , while in the USA if anyone were to ask, I describe myself- define myself as BLACK> but this is a cultural identification . My expereince in America before 911 at any rate, was that of a Black American. White Americans in the rural region where I lived from age 2-13 had never seen any African descended person other than myself. I was the subject of endless racism including violence and harrasement, hospitalization from injuries at 11- I don't need to defend my self-identity as a Black American. When I am amongst other Black Americans as an adult in the USA in large cities like Chicago or New York, Boston or Los Angeles, there is a presupposition on the part of many young Black people that I am not "Black". " What you mixed with?" I often hear. There is a preconception that I must be mixed but both of my parents are Egyptians and half the year when I am living amongst members of my familial tribe in the Western desert, I find comfort in that I look like everyone else. We all look alike. I see children at every age stage that could have been me at any moment. No one asks me if I am Mixed because we have been living in the same valley as long as anyone can remember. We live in a valley after which we are all named. Members of our people have contributed tissue and blood samples for academic studies of population genetics including human biodiversity project that I've provided a link for.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
H
Some of you are assuming that because I write historical fiction screenplays that this is my training and vocation in life, when in fact, I am an evolutionary biologist, a wildlife conservationist and veterinary technician by training. These are the subjects that I earned my degrees in higher education...
I also write documentaries and natural history essays. And as i've mentioned repeatedly, my greatest passion is humanitarian aid and endangered indigenous cultures.
Have any of you actually been to Africa?
What do you think you would experience in Darfur?
Would you be sensitive enough to write down the tribal affiliation of the human beings under your responsibility- the displaced people living in a refugee camp that have come for aid?
Would you accept what the woman said to you about her origins? If she were Fur and claimed so would you accept that? Or would you insist on writing down Black instead? If you were obliged to make a decision about translocating an entire village of Nyala ethnics into a refugee camp, would you be sensitive enough to insure that they were not crowded into a camp packed with Fur, even while the two share common physical features and skin tone- the Nyala are originally from Libya- they were shoved down into Darfur in history. They don't get along with the Fur. They are not one and the same people even if they share ancestors.
Being Americans you have a difficult time comprehending what a Black African is. Because I know Africa well. Because I live there half the year and travel throughout the continent, because I spend a great deal of my time amongst Africans of widely different ethnicities, languages and cultures, I cannot prescribe to your great generalizations. It you not I that has a self-loathing deeply burned into your psyche.
There is nothing but violence and suffering that I detest about Africans. And one can't blame the victim for suffering or being the scapegoat for misplaced enmity. Based upon some of your posts, an objective mind might come to the conclusion that you suffer from presuppositional bias- one that links hatred for people of specific skin colour or features, culture and/or language e.g. racism with African pride.
In other words, my great love and understanding of Africans, my great passion to share my appreciation of our ancient roots and human biodiversity is being misunderstood by an emotionally vulnerable group who have inferiority complexes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

When I assert that no Peoples of the Black Rock have been hereditary chiefs or sovereign rulers in Dynastic Egypt I am confident that the majority of actual Egyptologists of every different bias will agree with me. When I assert that Nilotic ethnicities have always been present in Egypt and that they have indeed been foudners of whole generations of dynasties you choose to ignore that because I cannot describe these peoples as "black". Not because I detest black people. Not because I want to take anything away from black people- these are your own misconsceptions founded upon a degree of willful ignorance.
Your definition of Black People belongs to Eurocentrics. My definition of Black People comes from my status as an indigenous Saharan.
I know something about these respective groups.
You may recognize traits like skin colour and facial features that you've been conditioned to accept as "Negroid". I do not accept this anectdated racial ideology. I don not beleive in the construct of "Negroe". I believe that there are many different ethnic types originally endemic to different widely separated regions of Africa.
Peoples that you might recognize as "Black" in the USA are not black but brown and not because there is something wrong or inferior with being black mind you. We are not black anymore than you are.
You think you are black because your masters told you that you were. You self identify with this blackness even while it is an over-generalization that does little to acknowledge other "black" peoples that live throughout the world.
If we are to acknowledge the non-African "blacks" as members of our clique, then we can make a statement that the majority of Africa, Asia and OCeania were "black" originally.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

My inclusion of India and "Negritos" in this thread is to throw light on the Afrocentrism - the biased world view of minds that attempt to overemphasize Africa just as Europeans overemphasized Europe in their worldview.
There is more than just black and brown and white. History and human biodiversity cannot be defined in narrow racialist terminology any more than the evolutionary history of bananas or cattle.
We are biological organisms. Science should not enable directional evolutionism and social darwinism. It should help enlighten the collective conscience recognize the global human condition.
The universal human family. Not greater nor lesser than, just equal and as such significant for our own respective histories.

---

quote:

---

Define "adoons".

And do they really come from the jungles of the congo???

---

quote:

---

This is hard for Americans to comprehend but what they term as BLACK is not what Africans consider BLACK. Denzell Washington in Africa would not be considered BLACK. He would be recognized as African but a BROWN ethnicity. In USA Denzell Washington is certainly embraced as a BLACK person but that is because alot of Eurocentric/Afrocentric people are missing the bus on ethnic diversity.

---

just to set the record straight denzell washington is the result of euro admixture into the congoids and pygmoids that were brought in from the congo jungles of west africa. come on you don't actually think that the people who got off those slave ships looked like him.
 

---

Posted by Tee85 (Member # 10823) on :
 
You're so stupid and obvious lmao.

And I think you're Maahes' alias which is even sadder.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 


Nadeed = Leba (a banned troll)

Mods, you know what to do.
 

---

Posted by Nadeed (Member # 14367) on :
 
tee85 you're a true sign of a defeated poster. you can't counter the facts that i state so therefore you engage in strawman arguments and ad hominem attacks.
 

---

Posted by Nadeed (Member # 14367) on :
 
all of these nattering delusions about who i am are just pitiful attempts at dodging the facts in my posts.

and if you want to know, i am one of the many horn and north africans to be exact who are fed up with the stupidity of many of the posters here writing nonsense about things they don't know anything about. and i'll close with this fact its almost 99% from the african americans or whatever it is they are called.
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nadeed:
translation of doug m:

waaiiiiih waaaaiiiiiih waaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiih

horners and north africans aren't using the terms that the euros told my slave self to use.


waaiiiiih waaaaiiiiiih waaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiih

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nadeed:

...horners and north africans aren't using the terms that the euros told my slave self to use.

---

And exactly which terms are those??.. 'Black'?? If that is the case, apparently you don't know that peoples both in the Horn as well as North Africa have been calling themselves 'black' long before any contact with Europeans, whereas ironically "Horn Africans" and the derivitave "Horners" (which is dumb as hell) is the term that was coined by Europeans! LOL Leba, your idiocy hasn't changed a bit has it?
 

---

Posted by Nadeed (Member # 14367) on :
 
doug m:

quote:

---

Actually the only one wining is you as you continue to make statements of absolute lack of
logic.

For example:

FACT: there are many ethnic groups in the horn who have strong ethnic, cultural and linguistic identities that they identify with and call themselves by.

ILLOGIC: therefore they are not black

TRUTH: black is irrelevant to the description of ethnic, cultural or linguistic identity and diversity in the horn as skin color is not ethnicity, culture or language.

Again, when you can show where skin color = language, culture or ethnicity, then you will be making sense. Otherwise, you are whining in trying to hide behind ethnicity and culture as an excuse for denying blackness.

And most of those who claim that horners do not identify as black Africans and understand that this does NOT limit their diversity in culture, ethnicity or language are those who have no clue to what they are talking about. Bottom line, there are some in Africa who don't want to identify as black even if they are black as the tar on the street. And much of this is simply because of an attempt to get away from being part of a people stereotyped as "be nothing, know nothing, non productive, lazy, ignorant, childish and dumb blacks".

---

quote:

---

"be nothing, know nothing, non productive, lazy, ignorant, childish and dumb blacks"

---

quote:

---

And exactly which terms are those??.. 'Black'?? If that is the case, apparently you don't know that peoples both in the Horn as well as North Africa have been calling themselves 'black' long before any contact with Europeans, whereas ironically "Horn Africans" and the derivitave "Horners" (which is dumb as hell) is the term that was coined by Europeans! LOL Leba, your idiocy hasn't changed a bit has it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Hmm.
I see that this is quickly going somewhere.
Not certain where and I don't think it takes a person of average IQ to comprehend why this dialogue isn't as productive as it aught to be.
What is your objective?
What is mine?

I won't speak for yours as it seems pretty clear that you in the spin zone are attempting to ignite your own straw dogs.

---

quote:

---

My objective should be clear. I intend to educate Westerners with my ancestors history. My ancestors are East Africans from North Africa. We Africans do not refer to one another or ourselves as Black People. We prefer to be described as members of our respective tribal clans, tribes, religious groups or nationalities. You in America have no such tribal identification and this lack of a self-identity may be painful and even confusing for you. I feel for you and have empathy. It does not diminish in any capacity
my sense of identity or the confidence that I place in our ancient oral histories. In my opinion,the terminology and nomenclature you've adopted here in many instances, is that of Eurocentric reductionists. It may read patronizing or even condescending to some of you. I can not be responsible for yoru emotional maturity. My opinions can have no impact on your sense of identity because I am not attempting to take anything away from you. To the contrary it is my intent to contribute to your understanding. But like many young people, you probably think you know everything there is to be known. Moreover, based upon the examples of your scholarship on this thread, those that I would classify as detractors of my position of human biodiversity before afrocentrism- their scholarship appears tainted with subjective emotionalism. They project a seething enmity that stems from their own experiences as Americans, descended of the Bantu/English Colonialist slave culture.
But you should know, many Africans consider American "blacks" for lack of a better term, to be the chosen ones. Look at the lives you lead compared with your relatives in Benin or Sierra Leone, Ivory Coast or Niger. Look at the great potential your lives contain compared with those of the vast majority of African youths living in Africa at this very moment.

---

quote:

---

I am attempting to not parse words here. Candidly speaking, Americans of African descent are helping perpetuate violence and materialism across the globe- just like their "white oppressors".
You are Americans after all. Prescribing to the rigid prejudices of Victorian era slave apologists
is a dead end. It has been for a very long while.
The Victorians were hard pressed to acknowledge tribal ethnicites in Africa. They preferred instead to group all Africans as Negroes.
One day you may be free of these shackles. Until then you will suffer from the delusion of a Black Africa.

---

quote:

---

I've repeated myself repeatedly that there is and always has been without any doubt the presence of Black Africans in the Sahara and Egypt itself.
As I have freely shared with you , while in the USA if anyone were to ask, I describe myself- define myself as BLACK> but this is a cultural identification . My expereince in America before 911 at any rate, was that of a Black American. White Americans in the rural region where I lived from age 2-13 had never seen any African descended person other than myself. I was the subject of endless racism including violence and harrasement, hospitalization from injuries at 11- I don't need to defend my self-identity as a Black American. When I am amongst other Black Americans as an adult in the USA in large cities like Chicago or New York, Boston or Los Angeles, there is a presupposition on the part of many young Black people that I am not "Black". " What you mixed with?" I often hear. There is a preconception that I must be mixed but both of my parents are Egyptians and half the year when I am living amongst members of my familial tribe in the Western desert, I find comfort in that I look like everyone else. We all look alike. I see children at every age stage that could have been me at any moment. No one asks me if I am Mixed because we have been living in the same valley as long as anyone can remember. We live in a valley after which we are all named. Members of our people have contributed tissue and blood samples for academic studies of population genetics including human biodiversity project that I've provided a link for.
Some of you are assuming that because I write historical fiction screenplays that this is my training and vocation in life, when in fact, I am an evolutionary biologist, a wildlife conservationist and veterinary technician by training. These are the subjects that I earned my degrees in higher education...
I also write documentaries and natural history essays. And as i've mentioned repeatedly, my greatest passion is humanitarian aid and endangered indigenous cultures.
Have any of you actually been to Africa?
What do you think you would experience in Darfur?
Would you be sensitive enough to write down the tribal affiliation of the human beings under your responsibility- the displaced people living in a refugee camp that have come for aid?
Would you accept what the woman said to you about her origins? If she were Fur and claimed so would you accept that? Or would you insist on writing down Black instead? If you were obliged to make a decision about translocating an entire village of Nyala ethnics into a refugee camp, would you be sensitive enough to insure that they were not crowded into a camp packed with Fur, even while the two share common physical features and skin tone- the Nyala are originally from Libya- they were shoved down into Darfur in history. They don't get along with the Fur. They are not one and the same people even if they share ancestors.

---

quote:

---

Being Americans you have a difficult time comprehending what a Black African is. Because I know Africa well. Because I live there half the year and travel throughout the continent, because I spend a great deal of my time amongst Africans of widely different ethnicities, languages and cultures, I cannot prescribe to your great generalizations. It you not I that has a self-loathing deeply burned into your psyche.
There is nothing but violence and suffering that I detest about Africans. And one can't blame the victim for suffering or being the scapegoat for misplaced enmity. Based upon some of your posts, an objective mind might come to the conclusion that you suffer from presuppositional bias- one that links hatred for people of specific skin colour or features, culture and/or language e.g. racism with African pride.
In other words, my great love and understanding of Africans, my great passion to share my appreciation of our ancient roots and human biodiversity is being misunderstood by an emotionally vulnerable group who have inferiority complexes.

---

quote:

---

When I assert that no Peoples of the Black Rock have been hereditary chiefs or sovereign rulers in Dynastic Egypt I am confident that the majority of actual Egyptologists of every different bias will agree with me. When I assert that Nilotic ethnicities have always been present in Egypt and that they have indeed been foudners of whole generations of dynasties you choose to ignore that because I cannot describe these peoples as "black". Not because I detest black people. Not because I want to take anything away from black people- these are your own misconsceptions founded upon a degree of willful ignorance.
Your definition of Black People belongs to Eurocentrics. My definition of Black People comes from my status as an indigenous Saharan.
I know something about these respective groups.
You may recognize traits like skin colour and facial features that you've been conditioned to accept as "Negroid". I do not accept this anectdated racial ideology. I don not beleive in the construct of "Negroe". I believe that there are many different ethnic types originally endemic to different widely separated regions of Africa.
Peoples that you might recognize as "Black" in the USA are not black but brown and not because there is something wrong or inferior with being black mind you. We are not black anymore than you are.
You think you are black because your masters told you that you were. You self identify with this blackness even while it is an over-generalization that does little to acknowledge other "black" peoples that live throughout the world.
If we are to acknowledge the non-African "blacks" as members of our clique, then we can make a statement that the majority of Africa, Asia and OCeania were "black" originally.

---

Again, you associate 'black' with only the darkest Africans like Nilotic peoples such as the Dinkas or Nuers. 'Black' in reference to people does not mean the actual color 'black' (which no humans have, but the darkest like southern Sudanese only come close to having). 'Black' simply means having very dark skin, which most indigenous Africans do have.

Hence, this Somali model...



is acknowledged as 'black' just as this Sudanese model...



Of course, technically speaking the Sudanese is much darker, but that does not change the fact that they are both dark or melanoderm as is scientifically termed, as populations indigenous to the tropics must be including Africa.

The differences between the two models above are perfect illustrations alone of the indigenous diversity in Africa yet the problem is you do not accept that the diversity in looks found in North Africa and especially Egypt are due to extra-African influence, that is genetic influence from outside of Africa like Southwest Asia and Europe!

I don't know what this "black rock", "red rock", stuff entails whether this was inherited from foreigners or an indigenous concept that became eskewed by foreign influence over time. I am willing to bet on the latter because the Kememu (ancient Egyptians) identified themselves as 'black' while they identified lighter-skinned foreigners, especially Asiatics as 'red'!

quote:

---

My inclusion of India and "Negritos" in this thread is to throw light on the Afrocentrism - the biased world view of minds that attempt to overemphasize Africa just as Europeans overemphasized Europe in their worldview.
There is more than just black and brown and white. History and human biodiversity cannot be defined in narrow racialist terminology any more than the evolutionary history of bananas or cattle.
We are biological organisms. Science should not enable directional evolutionism and social darwinism. It should help enlighten the collective conscience recognize the global human condition.
The universal human family. Not greater nor lesser than, just equal and as such significant for our own respective histories.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nadeed:

djehuti:

1. my name is nadeed not leba. 2. somalis don't call themselves black, so you can go ahead and stop your hallucinations. don't project your perceptions on people who don't want them.

---

1. Either you are passively lying that you are same person as the former (banned) troll Leba, or you are just another idiotic "Horner" supremacist following in his footsteps.

2. I never said Somalis called themselves 'black' (although I personally know many Somalis who do). I merely said that 'black' is a label that was indeed used by some African groups to describe themselves long before any Euroepan contact.

So, stop your psychosis.
 

---

Posted by SuWeDi (Member # 12519) on :
 
Maahes, I find that your problem is more complex than I think before...

You alwais say "my culture, my tribe, my tradition" and so on but in fact, you raise in US. So you culturally more american than african contrary than what you like to think. Live "half the year and travel throughout the continent..." dont make you culturally african!

Your main problem is that, you culturally american but you still have a lot of relations with your african roots. you know where you comme from unlike the other african-american. This is your bless but also your curse because this make you feel you have some kind of authority among the other africans-american when is time to speak about africa. But you wrong!

You sound sincere, but unfortunately, your sincerity make you more dangerous. Your understanding of african behavior sound artificially build and shape. You not trully experience it yourself, if is not just by procuration with the help of your "tribal elders". Your "africaness" look like a fantasm to me. Maybe is why you like to clain almos in each of your sentence, how you more african than everybody else here.

Like it or not, north Africa is the place in africa where is really common to find a mixe peoples. Is also the place where is easy to find a light complexion peoples and, of course, where the "racism" notion agains "black" african is almost the same than europe and USA if not more worst, just because this light africans or arabs do everything they can to distance themself from "black" african for "obvious reason". Your "tribal elders" look just like they fall into the same "trap" with they Crackpot Nonsense like "black rock", "red rock" and so on...

Like I say before, you culturally american and so, you cannot claim to really understand how the african think about themself. You not the only african in this site. I'm african too like many other here. I spend 20 years in Africa, in Cameroon, one of the most cultural diverse countries in Africa with more than 130 ethnic groups and more than 286 different languages and I never hear somebody talk about "black rock", "red rock", "Yellow rock" or other "rock-thing" to designate one particular ethnic group. Nevertheless, I hear many peoples talk about the "red one", the "black one" or the "yellow one" to designate one particular man when they need to be more specific and precise about his feature regardless his tribes or his ethnic group.

Is not really a surprise if "your" people introduce this notion of "black" skin tone and link that to one particular culture. But this fool nobody, we all no what is behind that, and is certainly not a african thing, and never was!

Also you say you not "black" and if say so is "oversimplification". What you forget is that the world need to be simplify. I hope you dont think that for exemple, if you need to describe your aggressor to the police for investigation, you don't go to start by say: "is a pale pink rock man" rather than just: "is a white blond man" despite the fact that: NO TRULLY "WHITE" MAN EXIST IN THIS PLANET! just like NO TRULLY "BLACK" MAN EXIST IN THIS PLANET!


PS: In Africa, the traditional (not influence by white culture) people call the "white" people "RED" PEOPLE. They also call the albinos "red". If they call one fair-skinned "black" man "red", is most by some kind of derision and nothing more... certainly not because his culture.
 

---

Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
cience 12 April 2002:
Vol. 296. no. 5566, pp. 336 - 339
DOI: 10.1126/science.1069878

Prev | Table of Contents | Next
Reports

African Pastoralism: Genetic Imprints of Origins and Migrations

Olivier Hanotte,1* Daniel G. Bradley,2 Joel W. Ochieng,1 Yasmin Verjee,1 Emmeline W. Hill,2 J. Edward O. Rege3

The genetic history of African cattle pastoralism is controversial and poorly understood. We reveal the genetic signatures of its origins, secondary movements, and differentiation through the study of 15 microsatellite loci in 50 indigenous cattle breeds spanning the present cattle distribution in Africa. The earliest cattle originated within the African continent, but Near East and European genetic influences are also identified. The initial expansion of African Bos taurus was likely from a single region of origin. It reached the southern part of the continent by following an eastern route rather than a western one. The B. indicus genetic influence shows a major entry point through the Horn and the East Coast of Africa and two modes of introgression into the continent.

---

quote:

---

Male Badarian crania were analyzed using the generalized distance of Mahalanobis in a comparative analysis with other African and European series from the Howells’s database. The study was carried out to examine the affinities of the Badarians to evaluate, in preliminary fashion, a demic diffusion hypothesis that postulates that horticulture and the Afro-Asiatic language family were brought ultimately from southern Europe. (The assumption was made that the southern Europeans would be more similar to the central and northern Europeans than to any indigenous African populations.) The Badarians show a greater affinity to indigenous Africans while not being identical. This suggests that the Badarians were more affiliated with local and an indigenous African population than with Europeans. It is more likely that Near Eastern/southern European domesticated animals and plants were adopted by indigenous Nile Valley people without a major immigration of non-Africans. There was more of cultural transfer.

---

quote:

---

Unfortunately, very little is yet known about how Africans who inhabited the immense lands of the modern Saharan and Sudannic regions in 6000 BCE lived. We do know that there were still thriving fishing communities on the banks of the numerous lakes and the great rivers. They, however, were probably not the first to become dependent on agriculture, since they didn't need to be! They had plenty to eat from fishing, gathering seasonal fruits, and harvesting abundant wild grains. In fact, the first signs of both livestock raising and grain cultivation in Africa appear in what is now the middle of the Sahara desert. Remember, in 6000 BCE, and still as late 3000 BCE, much of this huge area was habitable savanna country, with thick grass and abundant wildlife. In other words it was an environment that provided suitable animal and plant species for domestication.

Just how the concept and techniques of cattle raising got started in the Sahara is not known. Probably the process was gradual and independent of other areas. Possibly the idea came in from the Middle East, and the techniques developed locally. In either case, cattle domestication seems to have taken place in the Sahara before it did in the Nile valley (which is closer to the Middle Eastern centers of early domestication). One of the unique aspects of the evidence for dating Saharan food production is the survival of paintings and drawings, which picture the herding of cattle.

---

- Dr. Susan J. Herlin, ANCIENT AFRICAN CIVILIZATIONS TO ca. 1500
 

---

Posted by Nadeed (Member # 14367) on :
 
djehuti you are neither a somali or from the horn so don't worry about it. and you also sound bitter that you are neither. are you a black american.
 

---

Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
 
^^Djehuti is Filipino..


Btw, Mods! I'm not exactly sure what the hell an "adoon" is, but I'm quite sure that it's a pathetic attempt at a racial slur and warrants a ban, not to mention that he is already suspected to be a banned troll. Handle that...
 

---

Posted by Nadeed (Member # 14367) on :
 
sundiata, the key word is suspected which is all that you have since maahes has destroyed your arguments in much the same manner that slavery has destroyed the self-esteem of negro americans ie. black americans.

this is why they are obsessing egypt instead of congo. the ancient egyptians are the descendants of somalis. congoids are most definitely not descendant of either ancient or modern egyptians and certainly not somalis. those are just the facts of life.
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 


Did you know that ~a zillion years ago, populations of humans migrated to South Western Asia with semi-domesticated packs of Abysynnian wolves? These unique jackal-like wolves would become the ancestors of the Dingo:


The New Guinea Singing Dog:


and the Indian Pariah Dog:


So what?

The Pygmies in Central Africa were the first dog domesticators. They cultivated over countless millia the Basenji:


While human groups are demed sufficently distinctive to warrant an enormous amount of derisive and emotionally loaded debate as to their origins and racial makeup, very few scientists are debating the genetic origins of these curly-tailed barkless dogs. They are all very closely related to one another. It may not seem particularly significant to you right now, but think back for a moment about the Saharan rock art- and the pictographs of the Khoisans' ancestors and those of the Austranesians including Australian Aborigines and think again about the inter-related ness of these people throughout antiquity.



This brings me back to Egypt and the ancient breeds of hunting hounds that were developed there from the same stock.
We have a similar phenomenon with Nilotic/Saharan cattle:



My point being that at the beginning of this thread, a few authors make the point that mixed ethnicities - predominately European or Arabic with "Black" Africans resulted in the emergence of the Ancient Egyptians.

I argue that that is a Eurocentric view point.

Our historical relationship with other East Africans and with SouthWestern Asian including Pygmoid and Astranesians predates any exposure to European influence by tens of thousands of years.
Founder effect resulted in the cultural and genetic endimism of our livestock.
Arabic culture was not yet born at this point in time. Neither had Semitic culture.

Our ancestral founders predate modern 'races'.
We are the ancestral stock of other North Africans and South Western Asians. We come in a diversity of ethnic 'racial' variances.
If you must insist upon the Black African originations of Egyptian civilization you must also acknowledge our descendants.



I will forgive some of the overally subjective comments by a few of the most vociferous racialist minded Afrocentrics on this thread.

A quick digression that is integral to this discussion:
One day, when you visit the great continent of Africa you will appreciate how much larger Africa is than Europe. You may decide to call Europeans white Europeans without much debate. (But then Europeans have only been living on their land mass for a very brief period of time. They just left Africa during interglacial. Their ancestors were dark skinned, pale eyed, and pale haired AFRICANS.)But to arbitrarily define all Africans as Black is about as useful as describing all Asians as Mongoloid. It simply does not adequately describe the situation.
To date, most world maps manipulate the sizes of the continents to accomodate an oversized Europe and oversized North America.

For example think again for a moment about the size of Egypt when compared to how it is illustrated on most maps:

"Covering an area of approximately 1,100,000 square kilometers, Egypt's semi-autonomous Tribal Land covers an area almost the same size of the Indian subcontinent. It is squarish in shape and extends approximately 1,100 km from east to west, and 1,000 km from north to south. The Tribal Lands is almost entirely composed of sand seas and other inhospitable desert landscapes. However, deep, fresh-water aquifers exist deep under the Sahara. Their life sustaining springs empty out into enormous oases valleys and canyons, some of which have been populated since predynastic days. These regions are home to what remains of Egypt's indigenous tribal cultures and are not incidentally also the last remaining habitats of many wildlife species long extinct in the eastern Sahara and the world. Today, this incredible region is administered in part by the heriditary descendants of one of Egypt's most ancient surviving lineages. Heavily guarded and remotely located Wildlife Protected Regions are located throughout. Permissions to travel within are monitored by the Egyptian Goverment and Heriditary Tribal Council of the Sepat of Amoun Meri-Neith Pasebekhenuit ( Pa Sebkhet).The Egyptian Wildlife Service (EWS) (under the Minister of Agriculture, Dr Youssef Wali) is now headed by Dr Fohda (Undersecretary of State for Zoos and Wildlife, replacing Dr Amer). "
 

---

Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nadeed:
just to set the record straight denzell washington is the result of euro admixture into the congoids and pygmoids that were brought in from the congo jungles of west africa. come on you don't actually think that the people who got off those slave ships looked like him

---

Why don't you start by shutting TFU and stop making an arse out of yourself, Dameero foqol dameero.

This guy is obviously a troll (a real one unlike others) so maybe it's time for the moderaters to take exercising in whatever power they have.
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
SuWeDi, it is unfortunate that you have decided to play this foolish project a tail on the donkey game.

You should know that I would never be so foolish as to project what I know of my culture and one that has been passed down from one generation to the next -for as long as we have existed in the Sahara on Cameroon. There is such an enormous distance between our respective countries there is really no point in trying to equate them.
I do not understand what your issue is with my definition of black, but then you are West African. I am East African. You are Central African. I am North African.
I went to school in America and Europe, not the first generation to do so in my family.
I have lived and worked in Africa longer now at age 39 than I ever lived in the USA.
You are mistaken and are projecting your misperceptions towards me. I cannot accept them. And why should I? This forum is called Egypt Search Forums. Perhaps I'll log on to the Cameroon Search Forum and present my perspective of your culture there?

Reread my posts. If you can comprehend them you will see that it is not me that is being derisive here.
 

---

Posted by SaddenedAfrican (Member # 14348) on :
 
Maahes… your words and thoughts have drawn someone of palpable low character to your flag.

You have as a forum friend, a potential suicide bomber as your staunchest ally.
Someone clearly a racist and supremacist: that must tell you something about the stance of your argument being…fundamentally vile.

Your words and ideas are attracting type of persons who are not needed anywhere in Africa or the Entire World.

Coded divisive words nonetheless communicate their hate to the hateful. That is what you have accomplished, evidenced by your ally here on the forum.

This should reveal something about harboring on ethnic divisions, as you keep repeating.

These divisions are not helpful to Africa, and will result in people such as your ally car-bombing crowded markets to rid his community of supposed inferiors.

Your ally here believes he and his clan are Übermensch.

We have seen what happens when one group believes they are Übermensch and have access to modern weapons and industry.

I am first generation American, my parents are immigrants. I have never personally experienced racism in the United States. I have no complexes; just to quantify my bases.

I do not need self-healing, but am concerned about issues that could affect the human family…wherever they are from.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sundiata:

^^Djehuti is Filipino..

---

There is no need to bring in my ethnic background, as no doubt the troll will probably include that in his arsenal of attacks. I am Asian American is all, which means I don't give a rat's tail about petty intra-African ethnic conflicts.

quote:

---

Btw, Mods! I'm not exactly sure what the hell an "adoon" is, but I'm quite sure that it's a pathetic attempt at a racial slur and warrants a ban, not to mention that he is already suspected to be a banned troll. Handle that...

---

Adoon means 'slave' and is used as an epithet against Somalian Bantus as well as African Americans by the not so nice Somalis. Of course, he forgot to tell you that Arabs as ignorant as him would call Somalis 'abeed' which also has the same meaning. (this last comment probably hit a nerve so watch him rant ) Anyway, we don't tolerate any racial or ethnic epithets here and action is up to the moderators. So he should end up like his predecessor 'Leba'.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Naeeds_a_brain:

sundiata, the key word is suspected which is all that you have since maahes has destroyed your arguments in much the same manner that slavery has destroyed the self-esteem of negro americans ie. black americans.

---

quote:

---

this is why they are obsessing egypt instead of congo. the ancient egyptians are the descendants of somalis. congoids are most definitely not descendant of either ancient or modern egyptians and certainly not somalis. those are just the facts of life.

---

Again Egyptians are black just like other native peoples of Africa not only the Congo. Why do you seem so obsessed about the Congo anyway? If I didn't know any better, I'd say you have ancestry from there or something because most African Americans don't have ancestry from there and neither do Somali Bantus. Maybe YOU do! LOL
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
So far as I know, I have no allies here.
I feel attacked on all sides. I'm not sure why blame designation needs to be passed around to anyone. The Somalian poster obviously has issue with the tone in which a number of Americans are typing out their manifestos. But then you do know the history between Somalia and the USA? I choose to stay on topic and not play into the hate game.
That said, with the possible exception of Yonis,
not a single person has come to my defense.
This individual is not defending my position,indeed she or he is actually undermining anything I'm attempting to accomplish here.
But then that is the history of Africa.
You can blame me all you like but perhaps you should open a real dialogue with Nadeed.
Someone on here even accused me of being Nadeed.
I don't know nor have I ever been aquainted with this poster. You might all want to reflect on why a poster might react this way. Only Nadeed and I come from East Africa but we are being told we are
self-haters for not embracing their racist terminologies. I don't agree with the name calling and hold no enmity for anyone here. I'm determined to bring some light to the subject and I am very patient- regardless of the pointless, mean-spirited personal attacks against my person by any number of posters here.

I study conflict resolution and practice it. One thing I've learned is to stay out of fights that do not involve me.
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
Djehuti,
your comments are interesting but I think you like to instigate problems where none are necessary. You were diligent enough to post photos of Iman and Alex Wek who represent two different ethnic cultures, indigenous to North Eastern Africa. Iman is clearly of the Oryx lineage- the Ta-Seti and Thomosides are of this stock as is Anwar Sadat.
Alex Wek is of the Black Rock. Neither is more African than the next but you presume and are so arrogant to assert that we Egyptians have to be mixed in order to be Africans! This is the problem
we East Africans, including Ethiopians, Somalis, Yemenites, Eritreans and Sudanese have with this conceited projection. What makes you experts on my culture? You do realize that this is what Eurocentrics are infamous for? Projecting your opinions on other people- this smacks of prejudice. You are basically saying here that we Egyptians are incapable of comprehending who or what we are inspite of the fact that we are still living in our ancestral homelands and have so for thousands of years?
You do understand that Arabic is not our primary language in the Western Desert and that the Western Desert Tribal Lands are nearly the size of the sub-continent of India?
We are still speaking the same language our ancestors spoke and passing our property from one generation to the next in the same manner.
You guys are beginning to wear on my nerves.
 

---

Posted by Henu (Member # 13490) on :
 
Nadeed,


Your insults will not be tolerated. You have now continuously insulted others calling them "adoon" (Somali for "slave") and "jareer" in an insulting way (Somali for "nappy-headed," usually used as an insult). If even one more of your posts continues this pattern, you will be banned without warning.
 

---

Posted by SuWeDi (Member # 12519) on :
 
Maahes, hum... before you claim to be a African-american with egyptian roots but when some other african-american start to speak against you, you say you the only "truth" african here against biased "westerner" african-american. Now, when one other african (me) speak against your claim, you say I'm West African when you are East African and also, I'm Central African when you are North African...

How far you think you can apply your divisionist rhetoric?
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
Su We Di I don't think you get it.
You want to fight with me. I don't care to.
Look at the map and tell me what the hell a Cameroonian is going to say with authority about Egypt and visa versa? We are not even on the same coast! I am Egyptian and live half the year in the USA. I know more about my culture than I know about yours. How about some honesty on your end?
 

---

Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
 
Maahes, stop blabbering and come to terms with the fact that you've been exposed as a novice pseudo-historian who can't answer questions or respond to data, while you steadily contradict yourself. Posting articles about bananas and pictures of foxes in no way tells us anything about the nature of those ancient Nile valley inhabitants, nor do your bunk concepts of "black rock", "red rock" or "true Negro" appeal to any type of scientific reasoning. It's nice that you feel a need to be repetitive in reinforcing to us that you truly believe that your immediate clan share a cultural continuity with dynastic Egypt, or that you resemble the ideal ancient Egyptian from 5,000 years ago, but you've given us nothing but hot air this entire time and it is clear, as stated before, that you are a pseudo-scholar and hyper-diffusionist (per your Indian claims). Which is why you try so hard and impose your extra silly "red rock" vs. "black rock" dichtomomy on us in an attempt to divide Africans, when members of this board have already dismissed the majority of your ideas.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sundiata:

^^Djehuti is Filipino..

---

There is no need to bring in my ethnic background, as no doubt the troll will probably include that in his arsenal of attacks. I am Asian American is all, which means I don't give a rat's tail about petty intra-African ethnic conflicts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yonis2:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nadeed:
just to set the record straight denzell washington is the result of euro admixture into the congoids and pygmoids that were brought in from the congo jungles of west africa. come on you don't actually think that the people who got off those slave ships looked like him

---

Why don't you start by shutting TFU and stop making an arse out of yourself, Dameero foqol dameero.

This guy is obviously a troll (a real one unlike others) so maybe it's time for the moderaters to take exercising in whatever power they have.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yom:
Maahes's argument has degenerated from "brown, not (quite?) black" to incoherent babbling about haphazardly-connected topics that would otherwise never be found together.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

So far as I know, I have no allies here.
I feel attacked on all sides. I'm not sure why blame designation needs to be passed around to anyone. The Somalian poster obviously has issue with the tone in which a number of Americans are typing out their manifestos. But then you do know the history between Somalia and the USA? I choose to stay on topic and not play into the hate game.
That said, with the possible exception of Yonis,
not a single person has come to my defense.
This individual is not defending my position,indeed she or he is actually undermining anything I'm attempting to accomplish here.
But then that is the history of Africa.
You can blame me all you like but perhaps you should open a real dialogue with Nadeed.
Someone on here even accused me of being Nadeed.
I don't know nor have I ever been aquainted with this poster. You might all want to reflect on why a poster might react this way. Only Nadeed and I come from East Africa but we are being told we are
self-haters for not embracing their racist terminologies. I don't agree with the name calling and hold no enmity for anyone here. I'm determined to bring some light to the subject and I am very patient- regardless of the pointless, mean-spirited personal attacks against my person by any number of posters here.

I study conflict resolution and practice it. One thing I've learned is to stay out of fights that do not involve me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Djehuti,
your comments are interesting but I think you like to instigate problems where none are necessary. You were diligent enough to post photos of Iman and Alex Wek who represent two different ethnic cultures, indigenous to North Eastern Africa. Iman is clearly of the Oryx lineage- the Ta-Seti and Thomosides are of this stock as is Anwar Sadat.
Alex Wek is of the Black Rock. Neither is more African than the next but you presume and are so arrogant to assert that we Egyptians have to be mixed in order to be Africans! This is the problem we East Africans, including Ethiopians, Somalis, Yemenites, Eritreans and Sudanese have with this conceited projection. What makes you experts on my culture? You do realize that this is what Eurocentrics are infamous for? Projecting your opinions on other people- this smacks of prejudice. You are basically saying here that we Egyptians are incapable of comprehending who or what we are inspite of the fact that we are still living in our ancestral homelands and have so for thousands of years?
You do understand that Arabic is not our primary language in the Western Desert and that the Western Desert Tribal Lands are nearly the size of the sub-continent of India?
We are still speaking the same language our ancestors spoke and passing our property from one generation to the next in the same manner.
You guys are beginning to wear on my nerves.

---

Since when did I ever say one has to be "mixed" to be Africans?! I merely stated that modern Egyptians are not the same as their ancient ancestors because they are mixed! That does not take away the fact that they are still indigenous since they for the most part still descend from those indigenous ancient ancestors. A probably better example would be white Berbers like the Kabyle and Riff. Note that in all appearances they are 'white' with light colored eyes and evey light-colored hair, yet they speak indigenous African languages, and genetics shows that they also carry indigenous African ancestry as well as Western European ancestry which explains their appearance. Yet their European ancestry and appearance do not negate the other factors which maintain their indigenous status.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sundiata:

My fault Djehuti, that was probably in bad taste and you're right. That's probably too much information being revealed to someone of his antics and it doesn't matter anyways.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yom:
Maahes's argument has degenerated from "brown, not (quite?) black" to incoherent babbling about haphazardly-connected topics that would otherwise never be found together.

---

And you wonder why I haven't responded...
I read this to mean that the comprehension level of my writing was so low that you couldn't read it.
I suggest you try reading that material again- this time carefully.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yom:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yom:
Maahes's argument has degenerated from "brown, not (quite?) black" to incoherent babbling about haphazardly-connected topics that would otherwise never be found together.

---

And you wonder why I haven't responded...
I read this to mean that the comprehension level of my writing was so low that you couldn't read it.
I suggest you try reading that material again- this time carefully.

---

^This was after you ignored my questions. If your position was comprehensible from what you had already written, I wouldn't have asked you what you meant. Are you willing to explain?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
Djehuti, thanks for pointing out these issues.
It sometimes seems to me that there is an agenda going on here and it has nothing to do with objective and thus progressive dialogue. I am accustomed to defending all sorts of positions in debate. I expect people to actually read what is written and linked and keep an open mind to learning.
The attitude I'm getting here is similar to a classroom- I spend alot of time in the classroom.
I can always tell who is doing their required reading - in this case it would be preferable to open ones mind enough to work at putting the related issues together- its not a war of ideas for God's sake. Im putting alot on the table here and there is a distinct irony that i've written a major motion picture franchise that stars African Americans as Ancient Egyptians and yet Im being skewered like shishkabob over a flame for not being subservient enough to the mainframe Afrocentrics.
If a Bosnian was on this forum or an Irishman and he stated something about his culture I wouldn't be questioning his ever word like he was some sort of scumbag. I would be appreciative of his time and energy and try and learn something about some one else's culture.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Oh, and mind you that you are not the only Egyptian who posts here. There are several Egyptians who post on this subject including Ausar one of our moderators who is of Sa'idi Fellahin ancestry.

---

quote:

---

You have as a forum friend, a potential suicide bomber as your staunchest ally.

---

quote:

---

Djehuti:
and mind you that you are not the only Egyptian who posts here. There are several Egyptians who post on this subject including Ausar one of our moderators who is of Sa'idi Fellahin ancestry.

---

quote:

---

Djehuti,
This is the problem
we East Africans, including Ethiopians, Somalis, Yemenites, Eritreans and Sudanese have with this conceited projection. What makes you experts on my culture? You do realize that this is what Eurocentrics are infamous for? Projecting your opinions on other people- this smacks of prejudice. You are basically saying here that we Egyptians are incapable of comprehending who or what we are inspite of the fact that we are still living in our ancestral homelands and have so for thousands of years?

---

quote:

---

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Nadeed:
just to set the record straight denzell washington is the result of euro admixture into the congoids and pygmoids that were brought in from the congo jungles of west africa. come on you don't actually think that the people who got off those slave ships looked like him
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why don't you start by shutting TFU and stop making an arse out of yourself, Dameero foqol dameero.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---

quote:

---

Nadeed, the warriors from Somalia have been some of the finest in Africa.

---

quote:

---

Just imagine if the clans were directed toward some of the conflagrations troubling the continent.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nadeed:

quote:

---

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Nadeed:
just to set the record straight denzell washington is the result of euro admixture into the congoids and pygmoids that were brought in from the congo jungles of west africa. come on you don't actually think that the people who got off those slave ships looked like him
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why don't you start by shutting TFU and stop making an arse out of yourself, Dameero foqol dameero.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---

okay then someone tell me the last time they've seen someone from the congo or west africa who looks even remotely like him. you can't because he is the result of european genes fused with those of congoid and or pygmoid.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
That's a relief to hear. What does Ausar have to say about this little controversy? Does he define himself in your definition?

---

^ What do you mean by "my definition"??

If you mean 'black' or 'white', those are labels not so much definitions. The labels themselves are defined by social conventions. These by the way aren't used only by me, or African Americans but by all of America, and the West as a whole.

Definition of 'black' (person):

from Webster's dictionary-- a person belonging to any of various population groups having dark pigmentation of the skin

from dictionary.com

21. a. a member of any of various dark-skinned peoples, esp. those of Africa, Oceania, and Australia.

Mind you, the above label and its defintions are also used by non-Western societies and peoples as well so peoples from Chinese and Koreans to R Kazaks, and Russians, to Turks, Iranians, and Indians, and Indonesians, they all use the same labels.

If you're asking if Ausar agrees with such a label, then the answer is yes he does but is that a problem?? Surely he meets the qualifications above.

If you are dark skinned you are black, but of course these said labels are based on social conventions so are themselves not always precise hence 'black' applied to dark skin in general and not complexions that are literally black.

And again, even Africans have used that label long before contact with Europeans. Many indigenous groups identified themselves or others as 'black' usually because of symbolic significance. For example, 'black' in many African cultures was considered sacred hence the actual name the Egyptians called themselves was Kememu or Kemetwy which all mean 'black people'. They called their nation Kemet NOT as a reference to the river valley silt but to their actual country. While they called lighter-skinned Asian and Libyan foes desretyw.

Of course, the Egyptians themselves were not literally 'black' in color and no human being is! (not even Sudanese like Dinka, but they are close) They called themselves 'black' as a reference to their dark skin and because they saw the color as divine. Hence their ancestral god Ausar (Osiris) is known as Kem-Wer literally 'Great Black'.

Kem-Wer


His wife Aset (Isis) was known as Kem-Weret.

When queen Ahmose Nefertari was elevated to divine status as a goddess, she was also depicted as literally black:



And even the 'ba' which is the important spiritual component of a person that lives on after death was also depicted in black:

Tut's guardian ba statue


Black was also associated with regeneration and re-birth:

Tut on the left being reborn


Note that Tut was of course not literally black as shown this more realistic bust:



Tut and his people (your ancien ancestors) called themselves 'black' so the question is why do you and so many modern day descendants do NOT??
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nadeed:

yonis2 you don't get the point that you have to resort to ad hominem, strawmen, and non seqtures because you can't refute any of the hard facts that i am able to present.

---

ROTFL @ "hard facts"!

Since you first popped up, you have mentioned no 'facts' whatsoever but ranted and raved about your ridiculous 'racial' hatred against other blacks of a certain phenotype.

You offer nothing but prejudice spurred on by ignorance which is the very root of your psychosis! I suggest you seek professional help.
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
I think that you are misconstruing what I am on about here. Black is a sacred colour. The peoples that were/are truly black as obsidian or onyx were also sacred in ancient times- so much so that we took to describing the peoples as the peoples of the black rock- literally the Egyptian term for the Men of Onyx. Nowhere in Tut's iconography does he describe himself as descendant of anyplace but Egypt. One of the issues here is transliteration.
There are probably seventeen different words for Black in old Egyptian. In English we have but one word and it is used ad hoc as a one size fits all definition of Eurocentrics of old.

Because of the diversity of sepat indigine within Egypt itself, it would be better to catergorize each individual Egyptian by their Sepat and not by a colour or race
 

---

Posted by Yom (Member # 11256) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yonis2:

quote:

---

Djehuti:
and mind you that you are not the only Egyptian who posts here. There are several Egyptians who post on this subject including Ausar one of our moderators who is of Sa'idi Fellahin ancestry.

---

I personally feel that Ausar is a nice and intelligent man, but to be honest i don't think he's an Egyptian, it doesn't really take much to notice that he doesn't have the same mentality as what you would have exepected of someone from that region. Even if he's born in U.S, you need to be atleast a 3rd generation immigrant to have the same mentality as ausar has in relation to his homeland.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nadeed:
yonis2 you don't get the point that you have to resort to ad hominem, strawmen, and non seqtures because you can't refute any of the hard facts that i am able to present.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nadeed:

Maahes

i agree. how dare he. it would be like someone from somalia, the horn, north africa commenting on the filopines as an expert without ever having been there. i don't understand his obsession with us. i really don't.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yonis2:

I personally feel that Ausar is a nice and intelligent man, but to be honest i don't think he's an Egyptian, it doesn't really take much to notice that he doesn't have the same mentality as what you would have exepected of someone from that region. Even if he's born in U.S, you need to be atleast a 3rd generation immigrant to have the same mentality as ausar has in relation to his homeland.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
The peoples that were/are truly black as obsidian or onyx were also sacred in ancient times- so much so that we took to describing the peoples as the peoples of the black rock

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Maahes is only staying in his imaginary non black cultural identity mentality because he does not want to identify with the sambo black negroes who are so dumb as not to be fit for anything but menial labor type folks that he feels inhabits the rest of Africa.... because that is what the WHITE man said. It has nothing to do with cultural diversity, ethnic diversity, language diversity or any other type of diversity. Diversity IS INCLUSIVE not EXCLUSIVE and he is trying to make North Africa into some EXCLUSIVE population of people who have a SEPARATE set of rules of diversity that is somehow different from the REST of Africa. All of which is a bunch of pure nonsense because it contradicts all the historical, archaeological and anthropological evidence.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Mystery Solver, thank you for posting the information on Cattle and Banana cultivation.
I think perhaps you may be beginning to comprehend why I introduced these two topics to this forum.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Who were the first domesticators of Bananas and Cattle?

The more useful question might be, when did this cultivation actually begin and by whom. There is a tendency for some mindsets to jump to a conclusion that if a person suggests that domestication of a specific animal or plant took place in one region versus another, that acknowledging this hypothetical truth is somehow negating something from the region that accrued that material/technology/cultivar.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

I think that if you try and open your world view a bit you may see some compelling evidence that the great antiquity of humanity precedes these racialist perspectives and modern socio-political forays (dumbing down) into/through American racialist reductionism.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

There are, I am quite certain, a good number of people reading this thread that are not contributing, only reading. We should be sensitive enough to remain on topic and avoid personal attacks and juvenile discourse.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

There is alot of information out there. Nothing written here is ‘prooving’ anything. That is not the way in which science works. One must disprove their theory through hard science. If you believe that the Sahara is “black” than you should learn what that means.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

If you prescribe to this theory you should at least learn about the contributions of “black” people from prehistory to the dynastic days as it relates to the neighboring cultures. Africa is not an island. If you are reading this and are interested in our collective human experience please read on.

The next few posts I’m contributing are focused on the ethnozoology of our most ancient ancestors- the first waves of pioneers that lived in both Southern Eastern Asia/Oceania and the African continent. I am attempting to help elucidate the issue of time here. Afrocentrics make a claim that the Sahara was originally “black” and that all other peoples that exist there today are the result of an admixture. I argue that these supposed foreigners were also endemic to the African continent and that widely different ethnicities separated by geography and more importantly, time, developed quite independently in a more or less simultaneous manner- sometimes in a more staggered method as we can appreciate from the cattle cultivation paper posted by Mystery Solver.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Key to my position, is the fact that trade between Southern Eastern Asia and Eastern Africa -taking place in Punt- the Horn of Africa is ancient and that without it most of what we describe as Saharan or East African would simply not exist.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

The challenge for the reader is to getter a better comprehension of time as it relates to the antiquity of the subject matter. The recent moment in time we describe as the Holocene was only ~ 13,0000 years ago.


It precedes only by a few thousand years what we might typically define as history. The route Pygmoid and or Austranesians, originating in Africa, traveled during and prior to Neolithic times, is the roughly the same trajectory (back and forth, I might add) by which important plants, animals and ideas moved prior to the emergence of what might be termed 'modern races'.

In other words, dogs, cattle and bananas were living materials our most ancient ancestors knew intimately before even Proto-Pygmoid or Proto- Austranesians existed. Wild dogs, wild cattle and wild bananas were materials that hominids that would later become modern humans, depended upon.

It should not surprise us that New Guinea Austranesians ( which include extinct pygmies that once inhabited Taiwan, Phillipines and New Guinea/Australia/Tasmania) have in common with equatorial Africans, at least three distinct bananas, curly-tailed singing dogs, and the use of the boomerang/throwstick.

Proto- Austranesians that would come to people the Indian Sub-continent were dependent upon wild herds of cattle. They were adapted to live in more open savannah than their tropical congeners. Pygmoid populations were not as dependent upon cattle as the Austranesians. They cultivated plants within the forest while their neighboring peers the Austranesians were developing cattle culture. The one thing the two certainly had in common was the domestic dog.

Please read carefully how Neolithic African cattle cultures are related to " Dravidian" cattle cultures in the following paper.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

The paper on Cattle Domestication so thoughtfully posted by Mystery Solver discusses at length the presence of Wild Cattle in North Africa prior to their domestication.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

The more recent abstract i provided earlier on the same subject matter, presents a more comprehensive picture of cattle domestication. Hybridization between different forms of wild cattle endemic to different continents that shared a common ancestor are at the root of all domestic cattle. This has been demonstrated by exhaustive molecular research.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

African cattle are clearly hybrids between wild East African cattle and Indian Cattle with some European wild cattle arriving from West Asia later on in the domestication.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

For what should be obvious reasons, tropical adapted cattle and arid adapted cattle were integral to the development of unique African cattle breeds than temperate climate-adapted Eurasian cattle.

---

Undoubtedly cattle domestication was important development in enhancing survivability on the African landscape, but they [Africans] owe this accomplishment to no one else but themselves. Some of us need to break away from the shackles of the mentality that Africans are and have always been on the receiving end of the mastering of any type of complex human behavior, rather than the complex mutually inclusive reality of being pioneers and givers, along with being followers and receivers, as any other humanity on this planet. In other words, we need to get beyond this "non-Africans are inherently *the* saviors of Africans", and the thereof "Africans are inherently incapable of anything further than the need to be saved" mentality, and let it RIP.
 

---

Posted by SuWeDi (Member # 12519) on :
 
Maahes, one thing for you...

Journey of Man: A Genetic Odyssey :

(Part 01 of 13) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV6A8oGtPc4

(Part 02 of 13) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybji0axp6s0

(Part 03 of 13) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M25Ez4HW104

(Part 04 of 13) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA3aINMIWMw

(Part 05 of 13) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0m2-RwYXkWg

(Part 06 of 13) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0QDrODnN6g

(Part 07 of 13) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMzaQhqHYnM

(Part 08 of 13) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhZ7zaT5hvU

(Part 09 of 13) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV3Ws7pyJUI

(Part 10 of 13) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNlvzhfQex0

(Part 11 of 13) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KzroCQVDoI

(Part 12 of 13) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl-bnnES42U

(Part 13 of 13) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT6XsVnuz6o


BEST DOC. EVER!!!
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Interesting discussion on race, ethnicity and conflict in the Maghreb and Northern Africa:

quote:

---

An abstract of my PhD thesis

Defended at Amsterdam University, November 6, 2002

If, after reading the abstract below, you would like to read the whole thesis, you can order a copy by mailing

bazthesis@lecocq.nl

This thesis investigates the causes and origins of the conflict between the Malian state and the Kel Tamasheq (or Tuareg) people inhabiting its Northern regions, which culminated in two rebellions by Tuareg dissidents against the state: one between 1963 and 1964, and a second between 1990 and 1996. Research has not led to one clear-cut answer, concentrating on one specific theme within social science. The thesis argues that the conflict found its origins in a Kel Tamasheq desire to regain political independence, which had been lost after colonial conquest. The conflict was also about the nature of the state and who holds power in it; about racial prejudice and stereotyped images of self and other; about various forms of nationalism; and about political and social developments within Kel Tamasheq society.

After the Second World War, colonial politics worldwide were restructured. In French West Africa and the Maghreb, this restructuring led to the establishment of a new political elite, political parties and a gradual transfer of power in AOF and Morocco from the French to this new elite. At the same time, as the hitherto worthless Sahara started to spout mineral wealth, various conflicts broke out to retrace the Saharan borders - culminating in the French Moroccan war over Mauritania between 1957 and 1958 - while further north-west, a ferocious colonial war of independence ravaged Algeria. In this geo-political configuration, the Moors and Kel Tamasheq literally formed the centre stage as inhabitants of the Sahara. It was in this period that the basis for a future conflict was laid.

What is most striking about this period, is that the multifarious political projects the Kel Tamasheq and Moorish political elite engaged in were all more or less directed against something: Kel Tamasheq and Moorish incorporation in Mali. The OCRS, a French initiative to restructure their Saharan possessions into one colony, sought to keep the Sahara under French tutelage, which precluded Tamasheq and Moorish independence. The Nahda al-Wattaniyya al-Mauritaniyya sought to incorporate the Moorish and (partly) Tamasheq inhabited parts of Mali in either Mauritania or Morocco. Even those leaders who participated in party politics and elections in French Sudan, did so in an attempt to curb the political power of the ‘southern’ political elite. In this period, Kel Tamasheq nationalism was only formulated as a negative nationalism. It was about what they did not want to be - Malian - with hardly any idea what they did want to be.

When in 1960, French Sudan became independent as the Republic of Mali, the various political adventures of the Kel Tamasheq elite had made them highly suspicious in the eyes of the Malian leaders, who were in fear of a Kel Tamasheq rebellion with the support of French troops still present in the region. The Kel Tamasheq attitude towards their incorporation within the new state was, in the eyes of the Malian political elite, as threatening as before independence. Demands about government and administration were made which can be summarised as a demand for virtual autonomy: No state interference in internal affairs; administrators should be Kel Tamasheq or Moor; tribal leaders were to keep their power; Arabic education should be equal to French education. These demands do show a certain contempt for the Malian leaders from the side of the Kel Tamasheq and Moors. This mutual fear and contempt, combined with no small amount of prejudice from both sides, and small personal conflicts growing big in rumour, could only lead to the Malian fear for revolt becoming a sort of self fulfilling prophesy. Indeed, in 1963, the negative wish not to be Malian, led a small group of Kel Adagh men to start an armed uprising which was crushed in blood by an anxious regime. Although it was only partly clear what the rebels wanted, it was clear what they did not want - to be part of a state ruled by black Africans. Only in the 1970s and 1980s was a more positive Kel Tamasheq nationalism created which made clear what it wanted - an independent Kel Tamasheq state.

A few things are striking when looking at the Kel Tamasheq national idea as it was imagined in the 1970s and 1980s by the ishumar - the young Kel Tamasheq migrant workers who shaped both this national idea and the political movement that would fight for it. The first particularity is that a people that organised society and politics on the basis of fictive kinship ties, based its nationalist ideal on territorial notions. The desert they had fled during the droughts of the 1970s and 1980s was nevertheless imagined as a possible fertile national space. There were very specific reasons ‘soil’ was taken as the binding national factor instead of ‘blood’. The Tamasheq nationalists perceived kinship relations in politics as a major obstacle to successful political unification of the Kel Tamasheq nation.

Indeed, the social political structure of the Kel Tamasheq in tewsiten - clans - kept hindering the nationalist movement throughout its existence as various clan based factions fought for political dominancy within the movement. These fights, starting in the mid eighties, would continue during the rebellion and even after the rebellion violence between clans continued to haunt internal politics. Nevertheless, the idea of a Kel Tamasheq country to be united proved just as ineffective and it was abandoned rather quickly. The Kel Tamasheq indigenous to Algeria and Libya, the Kel Hoggar and Kel Ajjer federations, never joined the liberation movement. Already during the 1980s the Kel Tamasheq from Mali and Niger, once united under the name Kel Nimagiler, broke up along the lines of the nation states they sought to overthrow - Mali and Niger. The fact that they garbled the names of Mali and Niger to form their own name as a political entity shows how strongly the idea of the existing nation-states was engraved on their minds.

The second particularity is that the movement incorporated certain ideas on the nature of Tamasheq society and the need to reshape it, which its predecessors - the political leaders of the 1950s and the fighters of Alfellaga - had actively resisted. The USRDA had sought to curb the power of the tribal chiefs, which had been created or strengthened during the colonial period, and to promote the interests of the lower strata of society - the Bellah, or former slaves, and Imghad, or free non-nobles. Although these policies had not been successful, they had formed a major cause for the discontent and subsequent violent rebellion of the Kel Adagh in 1963. Now, only a decade later and the Keita regime gone, the new Tamasheq revolutionaries not only sought to liberate their country from ‘foreign occupation’, they also sought to liberate it from tribal and ‘feudal’ leadership and social relations. The prejudices once held against them were now part of a Kel Tamasheq image of self. In the end, the attempt to rid society from its ‘feudal’ chiefs and social relations failed as much as the attempt to liberate the country from Malian rule. After the ‘fratricidal war’ between the competing rebel movements MPA and ARLA in 1994, and especially after the initiative to final peace in northern Mali in October 1994 from the tribal chiefs of the Bourem Cercle, the power of the tribal leaders was even strengthened at the expense of the revolutionaries. The failure of the movement to incorporate the Bellah as a social group would eventually lead them to join the Ganda Koy, a vigilante movement that sought to end the Tamasheq rebellion through violence.

The conflict between the Malian state and the Kel Tamasheq and Moors forms part of a problem that haunts all of the Sahel, a problem often seen by foreign experts as one of ethnicity, but locally phrased in terms of race.

Perhaps the most interesting side to the racial aspect of the conflict between state and Kel Tamasheq, is that both sides were just as much obsessed with race and that both used racial discourse. One could safely say that Alfellaga was the result of relations between two different political elites based on mutual distrust and negative preconceived stereotyped images. While the Keita regime perceived the Kel Tamasheq as white, anarchist, feudal, lazy, pro-slavery nomads who needed to be civilised, the Kel Tamasheq elite saw the Malian politicians as black, incompetent, untrustworthy slaves in disguise who came to usurp power. These ideas resurfaced with the outbreak of the second rebellion in 1990 and were openly expressed in a mutually hostile discourse on ‘the other’ at the height of the conflict in the summer of 1994, when the Mouvement Patriotique Ganda Koy set out to defend the ‘sedentary black’ population against the ‘white nomad’ threat against national unity.

On a theoretical level one could argue whether racialism is or is not a subcategory of ethnicity. The answer is: It depends on what one means with both terms and from which side one looks at the problem. Racialism is the construction of social groups and identities on the basis of somatic characteristics. Thus, one belongs to a race when oneself and others say so on the basis of one’s appearance. Throughout this book, I have indicated a congruence between the social categories ‘ethnic group’ and ‘nation’ -- a social political group of a size that does not allow all members to know each other, which means it is partly an imaginary community, in which its members recognise each other’s membership on the basis of certain shared cultural traits. The distinction often made between ‘ethnic group’ and ‘nation’ is a political choice stemming from the idea that nation is inherent to ‘nationalism’, which is inherent to ‘state’, which is expressed in the term ‘nation-state’. I have also indicated that I see ethnicity as an ‘ideology’ which forms the glue or imaginary framework of an ethnic group or nation, whereas nationalism, and here I take Gellner’s definition, is ‘primarily a political principle, which holds that the political and the national unit should be congruent’ (Gellner: 1983, 1). In these definitions, race is not a subcategory of ethnicity. One can imagine members of various racial backgrounds to be member of the same nation and this is indeed the case in Kel Tamasheq society.

The Kel Tamasheq are perceived to be racially divided both by themselves as by the Malian government. The Kel Tamasheq themselves discern three somatic types: koual, black; shaggaran, red; and sattefen, greenish black. Each type roughly corresponds with a certain social group within society, but none of these groups is seen as not-Kel Tamasheq. However, the colonial administration, Malian administration of the 1960s, as well as the Ganda Koy movement of the 1990s, only saw two categories of Kel Tamasheq - white and black. These two categories are more often labelled as ‘noble’ and ‘slave’, but with ‘white’ and ‘black’ used as suffixed extensions. Thus, all white Tamasheq are perceived to be noble, which they are not, and all black Kel Tamasheq are seen as of lower status which, again, is not the case, not even when one sees race in Tamasheq society as purely socially constructed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yonis2:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Maahes is only staying in his imaginary non black cultural identity mentality because he does not want to identify with the sambo black negroes who are so dumb as not to be fit for anything but menial labor type folks that he feels inhabits the rest of Africa.... because that is what the WHITE man said. It has nothing to do with cultural diversity, ethnic diversity, language diversity or any other type of diversity. Diversity IS INCLUSIVE not EXCLUSIVE and he is trying to make North Africa into some EXCLUSIVE population of people who have a SEPARATE set of rules of diversity that is somehow different from the REST of Africa. All of which is a bunch of pure nonsense because it contradicts all the historical, archaeological and anthropological evidence.

---

You sure talk alot of nonsense for someone who seems to be well articulated.

---

..and though I won't take too much advice from soemone who blurts out that 99.999% of Egyptians identify as Arabs, I must agree here.

Doug. Yonis, Maahes, Ausar, and others ARE North and East Africans, therefore I would trust Yonis when he says that what you are saying is nonsense.

Specifically, that Sambo bull-ish.

Do not project an African American problem onto other Africans.

Sundiatta is right, and it's cool to state facts, such as African ancestry, or the self identity of Kemet, but...

[b]So far the disagreement[B] seems to have been over our friend Maahes' identity.

Maahes from what I've read so far accepts his African identity (I have not had time to read, post, and follow).

Minor discrepencies over whether black should be held to the fringe, as some hold white, or whether it should be pulled to include light-skin people may be something to consider, but are arbitrary here. Do you realize that is like soemone trying to tell you hwo you are? Blackness. Indeed, members on this very forum have debated about whether or not we should drop it in Africana discourse (which I by the way don't think we should).
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Wrong! What I am speaking of is the incessant undertone that somehow black is not a valid label for ANY person in Northern Africa, the Sahara or Egypt, due to some SPECIAL ethnic, national or social category that they identify with. The problem being that BLACK does not supersede or invalidate the social, ethnic, national or cultural identities of people of North Africa. Nobody is trying to tell Maahes, Yonis or anyone else how they should label themselves. Black is a word that describes skin color and applies to a range of populations in and out of Africa. It is no more or less of a political, social, ethnic or national identifier than WHITE. The point about Sambo being that, AS MAAHES pointed out, he feels that it ONLY applies to CERTAIN Africans who posses the stereotypical TRUE AFRICAN phenotype, which is EXACTLY what a Sambo is, the big red lipped, round eyed JET BLACK central African type.I am using it as an allegory for his claims that this is the only TRUE BLACK of Africa, which means NOBODY ELSE in Africa qualifies as black according to this NONSENSE definition. Black, as I am using it, is not a term of nationality, ethnicity or culture, HOWEVER, there ARE Africans who HAVE used it as such, most notably the ANCIENT Egyptians. He claims to be supporting diversity, but the only thing he keeps doing is defending the idea that blacks never have or currently occupy the Sahara, Egypt or other points NORTH in Africa.

More NON BLACK "other dark meat" from Morocco (Zagora):







http://afmc.paca.free.fr/sudMaroc.htm

African American Children:


The AA children and moroccan children pictured all have similar features and complexions, because of a common African ancestry. This is as simple as it gets. They are all black because they share complexions commonly identified as black. This has nothing to do with nationality, culture or ethnicity, and everything to do with common physical appearance.

Similarly:








Are all white, even though the first is from tibet, the second from Turkey and the third from North Africa.
 

---

Posted by Tyrann0saurus (Member # 3735) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
I think that you are misconstruing what I am on about here. Black is a sacred colour. The peoples that were/are truly black as obsidian or onyx were also sacred in ancient times

---

NEWSFLASH: No one is really that black. "Black" is really an exaggerated, metaphorical description of a person's skin color; it isn't literally accurate. Most code words for race are.

"White" person


"Yellow" person


"Red" person


You understand now? None of those people are really white, yellow, or red. Those are just poetic descriptions. The same applies to descriptions of "black" people.
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Interesting videos from Morocco:

http://www.cheminsdumonde.net/site/etape_index.php?id_etape=14

Tamegroute:







Glaoui kasbah:



Teeth puller in Marrakesch:

From: http://muller.lbl.gov/travel_photos/Morocco05/Page1.html

This is an attempt to show the diversity in various parts of Morocco.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
What's wrong with Sambo?
Euros make up a story
Black Americans buy into it
denigrating their former heritage.

Sambo is a proud name.
Nothing dumb or slavish
about the name Sambo.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Maahes is only staying in his imaginary non black cultural identity mentality because he does not want to identify with the sambo black negroes who are so dumb as not to be fit for anything but menial labor type folks that he feels inhabits the rest of Africa.... because that is what the WHITE man said.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
So far as I know, I have no allies here.
I feel attacked on all sides. I'm not sure why blame designation needs to be passed around to anyone. The Somalian poster obviously has issue with the tone in which a number of Americans are typing out their manifestos. But then you do know the history between Somalia and the USA? I choose to stay on topic and not play into the hate game.
That said, with the possible exception of Yonis,
not a single person has come to my defense.
This individual is not defending my position,indeed she or he is actually undermining anything I'm attempting to accomplish here.
But then that is the history of Africa.
You can blame me all you like but perhaps you should open a real dialogue with Nadeed.
Someone on here even accused me of being Nadeed.
I don't know nor have I ever been aquainted with this poster. You might all want to reflect on why a poster might react this way. Only Nadeed and I come from East Africa but we are being told we are
self-haters for not embracing their racist terminologies. I don't agree with the name calling and hold no enmity for anyone here. I'm determined to bring some light to the subject and I am very patient- regardless of the pointless, mean-spirited personal attacks against my person by any number of posters here.

I study conflict resolution and practice it. One thing I've learned is to stay out of fights that do not involve me.

---

quote:

---

Doug. Yonis, Maahes, Ausar, and others ARE North and East Africans, therefore I would trust Yonis when he says that what you are saying is nonsense.

Specifically, that Sambo bull-ish.

Do not project an African American problem onto other Africans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nadeed:
Willing Thinker {What Box}:

quote:

---

Doug. Yonis, Maahes, Ausar, and others ARE North and East Africans, therefore I would trust Yonis when he says that what you are saying is nonsense.

Specifically, that Sambo bull-ish.

Do not project an African American problem onto other Africans.

---

agreed. doug you should listen to your fellow black american negro. he's making alot more sense than you.

---

Actually neither of you are making sense. The term was not invented by African Americans. Stop living in fantasy land. Sambo is a stereotype of black Africans that depicts them as being all extremely dark with VERY big lips and other so called "typical" black features. It is actually an exaggeration of such features. That is all it means and I am using it precisely because some people here keep pushing this stereotype of the mythical "true" black African that is separate from ALL OTHER Africans. Racism in and of itself is a way of separating and treating people differently based on their physical appearance and it doesn't have to be simply black or white.





http://www.chgs.umn.edu/histories/otherness/otherness3-1.html
 

---

Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
 
^^lol, excellent visual effect Doug. Simply looking at this illustrates how absurd these divisional concepts actually are, and even slightly amusing in its stupidity. The "caricatured Negro" is the only ad nauseum argument left to be fallaciously applied in a rebuttal towards the idea that "blacks" are completely indigenous to the upper Nile valley. It's ingrained in some people's minds that if someone doesn't look exactly like that, then they're not "pure blacks", which is arbitrarily exclusive.

Yonis deliberately plays devil's advocate in that he knows all of these terms are subjective, but rather likes to focus more on the exclusive aspects of what shouldn't be applied, rather than inclusive on what should. It is a subtle approach of circular reasoning.

Maahes seems lost in his own confusion and Nadeed is a confirmed troll who will be banned soon, so he might as well just be ignored..
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Time to wise up son and learn from continental Africans.
Sambo is a West African name.
The Euros taught you to be ashamed of yourself.
Thus we see BAs consistently show shame in
instances where even Caribbean Americans take pride.

BAs want their image to be that of a WA, only in black.

Shame of pikanini
Shame of Aunt Jemima's original dress and head dress
Shame of the name Sambo

Better do some research on that last one and school you.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Wow. I believe Takruri raises some pretty good and interesting points.

I did not know 'Sambo' was an actual African name but was something entirely made up by whites!
 

---

Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Time to wise up son and learn from continental Africans.
Sambo is a West African name.
The Euros taught you to be ashamed of yourself.
Thus we see BAs consistently show shame in
instances where even Caribbean Americans take pride.

BAs want their image to be that of a WA, only in black.

Shame of pikanini
Shame of Aunt Jemima's original dress and head dress
Shame of the name Sambo

Better do some research on that last one and school you.

---

quote:

---

The coon caricature is one of the most insulting of all anti-Black caricatures. The name itself, an abbreviation of raccoon, is dehumanizing. As with Sambo, the coon was portrayed as a lazy, easily frightened, chronically idle, inarticulate, buffoon. The coon differed from the Sambo in subtle but important ways. Sambo was depicted as a perpetual child, not capable of living as an independent adult. The coon acted childish, but he was an adult; albeit a good-for-little adult. Sambo was portrayed as a loyal and contented servant. Indeed, Sambo was offered as a defense for slavery and segregation. How bad could these institutions have been, asked the racialists, if Blacks were contented, even happy, being servants? The coon, although he often worked as a servant, was not happy with his status. He was, simply, too lazy or too cynical to attempt to change his lowly position. Also, by the 1900s, Sambo was identified with older, docile Blacks who accepted Jim Crow laws and etiquette; whereas coons were increasingly identified with young, urban Blacks who disrespected Whites. Stated differently, the coon was a Sambo gone bad.

---

quote:

---

When I read Little Black Sambo as a child, I had no choice but to identify with him because I am black and so was he. Even as I sit here and write the feelings of shame, embarrassment and hurt come back. And there was a bit of confusion because I liked the story and I especially liked all those pancakes, but the illustrations exaggerated the racial features society had made it clear to me represented my racial inferiority -- the black, black skin, the eyes shining white, the red protruding lips. I did not feel good about myself as a black child looking at those pictures. - Julius Lester

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:


I did not know 'Sambo' was an actual African name but was something entirely made up by whites!

---

quote:

---

Of course, he forgot to tell you that Arabs as ignorant as him would call Somalis 'abeed' which also has the same meaning.

---

you can rest assured that "if" they call somalis that they definitely don't say it to the face of a somali. there not crazy. they know they don't want to have a showdown with a "mali".
 

---

Posted by Ebony Allen (Member # 12771) on :
 
Nadeed, will you please shut the **** up? I have read this entire thread and all you've done was talk nonsense about Somalis not being black without providing any evidence. And you have the nerve to say that you have presented hard facts that we can't refute! LOL! Plus your little adoon and jareer insults are getting tired. You don't contribute to the forum. All you're looking for is trouble. Stupid troll. You need to be banned now. You were warned before by a moderator, yet you still continue with these pathetic, insulting posts.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
For decades BAs were asheamed to be called
either black or African because their Euros
made those terms stock derisions too.

How in the hell can I ever be ashamed of my
own name and my own word for child because
some Euro trash uses them as ridicule?

You see, those who feel ashamed at hearing
Sambo or pikinini or seeing Aunt Jemima
with her head wrap are suffering from the
be-like complex.

They want to be like the Euro whom they
love so well and wish to emulate down to
the last detail.

Do you ever think Euros became ashamed of
the name Jane because a watchword for a
loose white woman screwing any every and
any black man is Lady Jane?

Why even after making Whitey and Cracker
pejoratives, Euros still use them as pet
names.

Free your minds fools.

Take the chains from your brains
or ever be a slave to the rhythm.
 

---

Posted by Nefar (Member # 13890) on :
 
hello Maahes welcome to egypt search!!
I look forward to your movie!
Let me introduce I am from Luxor. I am now livimg in America. How are you?

please listen closy to what they are saying and Doug M and all The other guys please dont be so rude. just because you are debating him does not mean you can insult him. same goes for you Maahes. I hate when people fight on here.

Stop being so B*tchy.
BYE
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
People bitch about me being so straight laced
that I decided to loosen up a bit these past
couple of weeks. It's all in fun and I apologize
to all who've taken me perhaps too seriously.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nefar:
I hate when people fight on here.

Stop being so B*tchy.
BYE

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
I think that you are misconstruing what I am on about here. Black is a sacred colour. The peoples that were/are truly black as obsidian or onyx were also sacred in ancient times- so much so that we took to describing the peoples as the peoples of the black rock- literally the Egyptian term for the Men of Onyx. Nowhere in Tut's iconography does he describe himself as descendant of anyplace but Egypt. One of the issues here is transliteration.
There are probably seventeen different words for Black in old Egyptian. In English we have but one word and it is used ad hoc as a one size fits all definition of Eurocentrics of old.

Because of the diversity of sepat indigine within Egypt itself, it would be better to catergorize each individual Egyptian by their Sepat and not by a colour or race

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osiriun:
Actually Melanesian people of New Guinea are closer related to Taiwanese people than African.

The Negritoes left Africa a long time ago and as a result are not closely related to Africans as much as Greek people are.

---

Are you describing the indigenous Taiwanese versus the Chinese ethnic Taiwanese?
Could you please clarify?
If the Melenesians are more closely related to the dominant cultural and ethnic population of Mongoloid Asiatics that would be compelling.
Alternatively,the Melenesians would be closely related to the original inhabitants of Taiwan and thusly closely related to the ancestors of the Micronesians and Polynesians?

Would the Negritos be a single group or do they represent different genetic lineages?
Do Africans present a single group or are Africans representative of diverse genetic lineages?
Are all Africans more closely related to Greeks? Or, are some Africans more closely related to "Caucasian" Greeks than "Black" Pygmoid/Negritos?

---

What is with the loaded questions!

The 1st wave of Africans were able to make it all the way to Australia some 20,000 years before Africans entered Europe.

It is quite simple. Negritoes have been separated from Africans for almost 60,000 years whereas Europeans are right next door to Africa and have had multiple waves of African migrants knocking at their doors.

Come on, at least read some of the threads a bit better. Phenotype commonality does not make one genetically related. Hence why Negroid is a dyfunct term.

Read about haplotype C which is found in its highest frequency amongst Australians.



As for Greek relatedness amongst Africans. 15,000 - 20,000 years of separation at best for West Africans from a common ancestors with Greeks where as that number is probably on 6000 for East Africans. Compare that to 50,000 - 60,000 years for the people of New Guinea.
 

---

Posted by osiriun (Member # 14297) on :
 
The Negritoes themselves are generally Haplotype M which is common all over South Asia.


Genetic Affinities of the Andaman Islanders,
a Vanishing Human Population

Our analysis of mtDNA and Y chromosome
polymorphisms provides new insights into the
history of the Andamanese. All the Onge, and
all but two of the Great Andamanese, belonged
to the previously described mtDNA
haplogroup M, found in East Asia [14] and
South Asia [16]. It has been suggested that
haplogroup M is a genetic indicator of the
migration of modern Homo sapiens from
eastern Africa toward Southeast Asia,
Australia, and Oceania [12]. Analysis of
mtDNA coding sites indicated that these
Andamanese fall into a subgroup of M not
previously identified in human populations in
Africa and Asia; this finding suggests an early
split from these populations.

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/CB_2002_p1-18.pdf
 

---

Posted by abdulkarem3 (Member # 12885) on :
 

quote:

---

Why even after making Whitey and Cracker
pejoratives, Euros still use them as pet
names.

---

quote:

---

Free your minds fools.

---

quote:

---

Take the chains from your brains
or ever be a slave to the rhythm

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:


While I fully comprehend the theory DougM and Sundiata bring forth about a sterotypical African phenotype and the historical issues of prejudice - these are purely American constructs.

---

quote:

---

the point I am attempting to make here was in response to an assertion consistently made by DougM and Sundiata.

They will argue that Egypt was originally peopled by an exclusively 'black' population.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nefar:
hello Maahes welcome to egypt search!!
I look forward to your movie!
Let me introduce I am from Luxor. I am now livimg in America. How are you?

please listen closy to what they are saying and Doug M and all The other guys please dont be so rude. just because you are debating him does not mean you can insult him. same goes for you Maahes. I hate when people fight on here.

Stop being so B*tchy.
BYE

---

Azul Felawan! Hamdulillah!


The day is over.
And still so heavy on the mind:
in flew glowing, smiling Mother, butterfly
in yellow
to join the frowning cactus crowd.
Finding flowers - even there - to flutter round.

I thought, Isn't Mother grand?
The way she flies and flies
into the sting of the cold
and the prick of the barbed wire.
Isn't mother grand
to gladly fly and swiftly fly
into the sting of the cold
and the prick of the barbed wire.

The day is over
And still goes passing through the mind:
in came glowing, smiling Mother, sure and kind.
To rouse us
to give ourselves out and to cry.
Birth to warm intentions, worthless otherwise!

Oh, the lives that brush against us,
pass us by and by,
the friends who may or may not come
if we would first invite.
Oh to open doors,
to always gladly fly and fly
into the sting of the cold
and the prick of the barbed wire
 

---

Posted by tooSleepy (Member # 14307) on :
 
Stumbled across this.
Egyptian mummy head from a Middle Kingdom tomb in Thebes-West (2050 – 1650 BC).
With straight braided hair, the object has similar extreme traits like this Lady and Gent.



Egyptian mummy head from a Middle Kingdom tomb in Thebes-West (2050 – 1650 BC).
http://www.nanobiomed.de/nanoendoscopic_analysis_of_.html
 

---

Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
 
Djehuti,

Just a trivia note re "Sambo": The actual name is "Samba" as in Samba Diallo--a very famous musician from Guinea, West Africa. There's also "Masamba" as in this actual name "Masamba Diop".

And of course there's the well-known dance in Brazil known as "the samba". But I don't know the connection between that very popular dance and the male name "Samba".
 

---

Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
Sundiata, there were without a doubt many founders, rulers, and administrators of Egyptian dynasties whose origins were far up the Nile as far as Somalia and Ethiopia. Any one of these rulers would be considered in your worldview "Black". However, they were Puntite, IRthet, Wawat etc. But that is of no significance to you I realize.

---

quote:

---

the Nagada and Kerma series are so similar that they were barely distinguishable in the territorial maps; they subsume the first dynasty series from Abydos.

---

quote:

---

The Niger-Congo speakers, Congo, Dahomey and Haya, cluster closely with each other and a bit less closely with the Nubian sample both the recent and the Bronze Age Nubians and more remotely with the Naqada Bronze Age sample of Egypt, the modern Somalis, and the Arabic-speaking Fellaheen (farmers) of Israel. When those samples are separated and run in a single analysis as in Fig. 1, there clearly is a tie between them that is diluted the farther one gets from sub-Saharan Africa". The other obvious matter shown in Fig. 3 is the separate identity of the northern Europeans..........................[...]In this figure, one can see a clear link between the Niger-Congo sample and the Natufians. The Pre-historic/Recent Northeast African sample also has a subsequent link to the Niger-Congo in fig. 3

---

quote:

---

The nature of the body plan was also investigated by comparing the intermembral, brachial, and crural indices for these samples with values obtained from the literature. No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex. The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983). The values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990). This pattern is supported by Figure 7 a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; (data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by tooSleepy:
Stumbled across this.
Egyptian mummy head from a Middle Kingdom tomb in Thebes-West (2050 – 1650 BC).
With straight braided hair, the object has similar extreme traits like this Lady and Gent.



Egyptian mummy head from a Middle Kingdom tomb in Thebes-West (2050 – 1650 BC).
http://www.nanobiomed.de/nanoendoscopic_analysis_of_.html

---

^^Ok, and?


What would lead you to assume anyways, that the above mummy head resembled even remotely the people in those photos, or that the person had "straight hair" (especially with braids)?


Quote: Hair is made of keratin protein. Keratin is composed of amino acid chains called polypeptides. In a hair, two such chains are called cross-chain polypeptides. These are held together by disulphide bonds. The bulk of the hair, the source of its strength and curl, is called the cortex. The hair shafts are made of a protective outer layer called the cuticle. We are informed by Afro Hair - A Salon Book, that chemicals for bleaching, penning and straightening hair must reach the cortex to be effective. For hair to be permed or straightened the disulphide bonds in the cortex must be broken. The anthropologist Daniel Hardy writing in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology, tells us that keratin is stable owing to disulphide bonds. However, when hair is exposed to harsh conditions it can lead to oxidation of protein molecules in the cortex, which leads to the alteration of hair texture, such as straightening. Two British anthropologists, Brothwell and Spearman, have found evidence of cortex keratin oxidation in ancient Egyptian hair. They held that the mummification process was responsible, because of the strong alkaline substance used. This resulted in the yellowing and browning of hair as well as the straightening effect. This means that visual appearance of the hair on mummies cannot disguise their racial affinities. The presence of blonde and brown hair on ancient Egyptian mummies has nothing to do with their racial identity and everything to do with mummification and the passage of time. As the studies have shown, when you put the evidence under a microscope the truth comes out. - Anu M'bantu and Fari Supia. "Egyptology: Hanging in the Hair", West Africa Magazine (2001)


Keita on hair examined at el-Badari:


this hair is grossly no different from that of Fulani, some Kanuri, or Somali and does not require a gene flow explanation any more than curly hair in Greece necessarily does. - Keita, S. (1993)
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
Wow. I'm glad I took some time off here.
Perhaps we have a sounding board where real ideas can be expressed without prerogatives and insults?

While I fully comprehend the theory DougM and Sundiata bring forth about a sterotypical African phenotype and the historical issues of prejudice - these are purely American constructs. I have never expressed such sentiments and am a little baffled where all that is coming from. Who taught you that these features were anything but beautiful?
Who taught you that these cultures were anything but desireable? It wasn't Egypt. I know that much for certain.
Isn't it a bit irrational to correlate an unfortunate trend in American culture-one that just occured in anthropological time-with topic of human biodiversity in ancient Saharan Africa ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

It seems to me that no matter how I say it or how many times I repeat it, these two writers project a certain enmity...
It is projected upon my person when I choose to be self-determinative. Because I identify with my own culture and homelands I must somehow feel superior over another peoples? If an Egyptian chooses to self-identify as a Moslem Cairene Egyptian, an Alexandrine Copt, a Siwan, a Saite rather than a Black this is grounds for contempt in your view? I am prejudiced against people with 'sterotypical African features? This is your assumption and while it may seem plausible to you or even logical, these are constructs of another place and time. They do not exist in Egypt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

I believe that and this based upon my academic license so to speak- that all Human Kind began on the continent of Africa.

While Osiriun has made the excellant points about human biodiversity as it relates to Greeks and Astronesians and how they are related genetically to extent populations of Africans- the point I am attempting to make here was in response to an assertion consistently made by DougM and Sundiata.

They will argue that Egypt was originally peopled by an exclusively 'black' population.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Koreans are Asians but we don't call them yellows.
We don't define Chinese as yellows either. Most would allow a Chinese national to describe themselves as Chinese. A stranger might describe the individual as an Asian- an East Asian versus a Western Asian or Southern Asian, A South East Asian or a Filipino... I don't think that a Japanese person is going to get their nipple twisted over being called an East Asian but I doubt they would encourage people to write them up as Yellow. There is some irony in that what we define as East Asians have largely displaced indigenous populations of "Black Asians"...
Were the founders of the Cambodian culture Indigenous Black Asians? Were the founders of the Javanese culture Black Asians? I don't know but many depictions on those early temples suggest so.
So - why don't we have people arguing about that?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Anyway-
The original inhabitants of North Africa would travel from that continent into Asia to become Austronesians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Discussion of rock paintings and pictographs dating back to the Niolithic are recalled as evidence to that argument that the Sahara was peopled exclusively by Black peoples.
We are arguing over semantics really.
What you are defining as Black I am defining as African.There were and are divergent populations of Human Beings in the Sahara that from the earliest days in prehistory adapted to different challenged in their environment differently.
They were not different species but they managed to share limited resources by staying out of one another's territories and filling different niches. The same can be said for most stone age cultures the world round- and the time in which your argument rests was a stone age world. I'm really trying to get you to realize that the ancestors of the entire globe started off in Africa. They did this in waves. Which wave peopled the Nile valley? How many waves in are we discussing? The whole topic is convoluted.
http://www.andaman.org/BOOK/chapter6/text6.htm

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

I bring up the other colours of people in reference and in reverence of my culture.
Being an indigenous Saharan myself, and one whose family still speaks their mother tongue and places great emphasis on oral history fully believe that
- wait a minute-
http://s9.photobucket.com/albums/a83/PiAmoun/?action=view¤t=khnum.gif
Here:
"n Egyptian mythology, Khnum (also spelled Chnum, Knum, or Khnemu) was one of the earliest Egyptian gods, originally the god of the source of the Nile River. Since the annual flooding of the Nile brought with it silt and clay, and its water brought life to its surrounds, he was thought to be the creator of the bodies of human children, which he made at a potter's wheel, from clay, and placed in their mothers' wombs. He later was described as having molded the other gods, and he had the titles Divine Potter and Lord of created things from himself.

In certain locations, such as Elephantine, since Khnum was thought of as a god pouring out the Nile, he was regarded as the husband of Satis (who did much the same), and the father of Anuket, who was the personification of the Nile. In other locations, such as Her-wer (Tuna el-Gebel perhaps), as the moulder and creator of the human body, he was sometimes regarded as the consort of Heket, whose responsibility was breathing life into his creations. Alternatively, in places such as Esna, due to his aspect as creator of the body, they viewed him as the father of Heka, the personification of magic, and consequently as the husband of Menhit.

Originally one of the most important gods, when other areas arose to greater prominence, it was the secondary function, as potter, that became his whole realm of authority, and instead, the Nile was considered the god Hapy, who was the Nile god in the more powerful areas. Khnum's name derives from this secondary association, – it means builder. However, Khnum's earlier position as 'moulder' of the other gods, leads to him being identified as Ra, or more particularly as the Ba of Ra. Since Ba is also the word for a Ram, he became thought of as having a Ram's head.

In art, he was usually depicted as a Ram-headed man at a potter's wheel, with recently created children standing on the wheel, although he also appeared in his earlier guise as a water-god, holding a jar from which flowed a stream of water. However, he occasionally appeared in a compound image, depicting the elements, in which he, representing water, was shown as one of four heads of a man, with the others being, – Geb representing earth, Shu representing the air, and Osiris representing death. Some think this is a depiction which may have had an influence on Ezekiel and Revelations, as Khnum had a Ram's head, Shu sometimes appeared with a Lion's head, Osiris was a human, and Geb had a goose on his head.

The worship of Khnum centred on two principal riverside sites, Elephantine Island and Esna, which were regarded as sacred sites. At Elephantine, he was worshipped alongside Anuket and Satis as the guardian of the source of the River Nile. His significance led to early theophoric names of him, for children, such as Khnum-khufwy – Khnum is my Protector, the full name of Khufu, builder of the Great Pyramid. Due to his importance, as an aspect of the life-giving Nile, and also the creator, Khnum was still worshipped in some semi-Christian sects in the second or third centuries."


According to oral tradition the attribute of the great conscience, e.g. God, "Khnum" AKA Kemis made human kind from the different colours of silt, sand, rock and clay that one appreciates along the course of the Nile. Thusly, Khnum made each 'race' of man on his wheel. There isn't anything racist about that creation myth.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Our Oldest Pre-Coptic fathers described the indigenous peoples as such and without prejudice.
It was a revelation to acknowledge the miracle of human life and gifts of creation, that are constantly reafirming themselves in our eyes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Any of you that have visited Algeria, Libya, Marsa Matruh or Siwa have seen the ancient pictographs described by anthropologists. Some of these pictographs are believed to have been created by
early Saharan populations related to the Khoisan, Kung!, San and other "Bushmen" e.g. click language speaking, pygmoid ethnicities whose descendants are still quite present especially in Southern Libya, Siwa and Dahkhla. Were these ochre skinned, Mongoloid eyed, pepper corn haired peoples the only human inhabitants of these oases?
Of course not. But they lived there for ever.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Another peoples that also generated rock paintings and also indigenous to the Sahara are the Peoples of the Black Rock. Now some of you jump to a conclusion that all the people of the Black Rock are 'stereotypical African' in appearance.
Actually, most of them don't have the features Ive read described. The open desert doesn't encourage anything to bulge. Most desert people have conservative features. Peoples of moist tropical climates tend to have voluptuous features.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

What I have been attempting to explain to you is that they are but one of four 'races' of people that have lived in the Sahara since at least predynastic times. The peoples of the Black Rock
were present as were the aforementioned ochre rock people. These two distinctive populations are both descended of ancestors that lived for tens of thousands of years in the same region.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

These populations would migrate from Africa and become the Austronesians. Those that did not migrate~ 100,000. years ago would stay in the Sahara and become the peoples of the Ochre Rock and the peoples of the Black Rock. Their common ancestor whose close relatives left Africa ~100,000 years ago were closely related to the Khoisan/San and Central Africa's so-called pygmies.
The Sahara at that point in time was much greener and more tropical but it was not a jungle landscape -more like Kenya or Somalia.
Regardless, the first wave of migration would be followed by another and another and it went both ways naturally until desertification closed off certain corridors and arable land vanished beneath sand. Geographic isolation set in and for tens of thousands of generations, no sizeable populations would move between Asia and Africa- but they were beginning to trickle into Europe and West Asia.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Earlier in this thread I digressed into discussing ethnozoological topics when racialist perspectives began clouding the intellectual discourse and emotional prerogatives started being thrown about.

Subsequently, one forum writer demanded to know what Jackals had to do with anything. Those "jackals" are the genetic progenitors of a closely related clade of barkless, curly-tailed dogs that are closely associated with Austronesian and Pygmoid populations in Central Africa, New Guinea, India and Australia.

Wild bananas utilized for their fiber content were carried by the earliest wave of African migrants into New Guinea and Southern Asia where they were planted and naturalized for cultivation. These populations would discover that edible wild bananas were growing in their new forests. Edible Banana cultivation ensued in jungle haste.
Trade between these scattered Pygmoid and Austronesian populations over many tens of thousands oy years enabled their ever-present dog to keep from dying out of inbreeding depression and it could be argued, it encouraged the cultivation of the banana which in turn enabled larger populations of human beings to survive in the primary rain forests of Southern Asia .

Mount Toba exploded when?
I think if memory serves me correctly, a global cataclysm is what obliged the first wave of migrants out of Africa to begin with- and from there natural cataclyms of that scale would serve as catalysts for mass migrations further afield.
In other words, people picked up and moved away into new territories bringing with them staples like dogs and bananas- then they would get established for a long while only to be sent packing again a few thousand years later- New Guinea and other Islands- would keep their populations whilst India and Africa's populations kept moving.
At any rate, jump ahead to the Holocene epoch ~ 13,000 years ago. Just as Astranesians had become established in their far away homes- African populations also grew , expanded, diverged and migrated when they saw fit.
East Africans would bring their hitherto endemic semi-domsticated cattle into Southern Asia in the region we call the lower Hindu Kush- or Western India/Pakistan- cultures recetnly migrated from the Horn of Africa were developing a semi-pastoral lifestyle centered around cattle. Trade with Austronesian cattle cultures from southern India and with Eastern Africa would enable a new level of selective refinement of two populations of cattle- both further along in their domestication, thanks to the introgression of genes.

It is very difficult to distinguish one wild animal from the next. Cross breeding two closely related subspecies of the same animal together often leads to unique phenotypes. These phenotypes appear as mutations.
Selective breeding enables the owner of said domesticate with the ability to distinguish their stock from anyone elses, thereby increasing the stock of said domestic species. Hybrid vigour increases the size as well.

So piebald cattle and dogs that appear in Niolithic art in the Sahara are evidence that some degree of selective breeding between genetically divergent populations of these animals was already well along at that point in history.

Just as the African Pygmoid /proto-Australoid populations managed to reach New Guinea and Tasmania ~sixty thousand years ago-

Their African congeners maintained some level of however infrequent trade with their however distant relatives.

Meanwhile, the Horn Africans that populated Yemen/Oman, probably the ancestors of most Nile Valley Egyptians, were bringing their cattle further and further afield in time - migrating ever further east until they peopled Western India -domesticated another species of wild cattle Bos Indicus and founded a new civilization that would much later in time be defined as India.


I'm not confused about phenotypey, and certainly don't equate skin colour with racial designations.

The reason I brought up the Khoisan-like pygmoids of the Sahara is that their haplotypey is shared with certain Central African pgymoid populations and certain Austronesian populations.

In the minds of some posters, these people simply don't exist. Austronesian Negritos of the Andammens and Nicobars are darker and have more "stereotypical African" features than most Africans. Their ancestors came from Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Europeans also came from Africa much more recently and as such, their genes suggest that at least the Greeks at any rate and Italians are much more closely related to West Africans than either are to the Austranesians.

In the Eurocentric worldview the world is divided north to south. Europe being the home of the paler brighter people and Africa being the home of the not so noble black African DougM delights about.
I bring up the Southern Asians to make a point.

Just as European populations come into contact with Africa, so to do Southern Asian populations and this has been going on for a much longer period of time- the latter that is.
There is a longer history of dispersal -both directions between Southern Asia and Africa than between Europe and Africa. The issue is time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sundiata:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:


While I fully comprehend the theory DougM and Sundiata bring forth about a sterotypical African phenotype and the historical issues of prejudice - these are purely American constructs.

---

Obviously you didn't comprehend since you've distorted beyond recognition whatever it is you were supposed to get out of whatever "theory" I was supposed to be putting fourth.

quote:

---

the point I am attempting to make here was in response to an assertion consistently made by DougM and Sundiata.

They will argue that Egypt was originally peopled by an exclusively 'black' population.

---

Straw man.. Direct quotations are more than welcome. This is your way of weaseling around and not substantiating what you were initially challenged on:

"To my knowledge there was never a single Black ( as in Dinka, Fur or Nyala peoples of Niger, Sudan and Libya) King that ruled in Egypt.

Nor were there many Negroes ( Round Headed) even present in Dynastic Egypt until fairly late in history."


^^You've yet to extrapolate on this and seamlessly talk around it while basically repeating yourself and going on and on about the same things; same rhetoric. What FACTS can you offer to substantiate these claims of yours above, or do you retract those statements? I don't understand..

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lamin:
Djehuti,

Just a trivia note re "Sambo": The actual name is "Samba" as in Samba Diallo--a very famous musician from Guinea, West Africa. There's also "Masamba" as in this actual name "Masamba Diop".

And of course there's the well-known dance in Brazil known as "the samba". But I don't know the connection between that very popular dance and the male name "Samba".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
Sundiata, I don't know what to say. 20.000 years ago - you know what-I'm sorry _ I can't continue having this one sided dialogue with you you. Your ignoring what I've written and are still attempting to force a crayon into a pencil sharpener.

---

quote:

---

You are I'm afraid that from your posts that, your emotions verge on the irrational.

---

quote:

---

The women in my family call this sort of conundrum
the objective of an ant lion(ess). You are always correct and gain strength from consuming stupid ants like me.

---

quote:

---

It matters not that you are not reading what I'm writing.You are in my opinion intellectually a bit lazy and as such, the scholarship you present here is misleading and dishonest.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
DougM, you too suffer from directional prejudice.
Crayons should never be put in a pencil sharpener.

If either you or Sundiata were a little more honest with your own inner-psyche you could fight the demons of racism in your own heads.

Read up on the paper that links the Mande Cattle Culture and Dravidian Cattle Culture- and then reread what I've written here.

You are so busy hunting lions that you forget something integral about yourselves.
I'll let you discover what that is for yourselves.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Now- getting back to writers who are actually engaged in learning - we are all students in life are we not?

My family originally came from Somerkot valley between Dahklha and Khargha. About four thousand years ago, a good percentage of our peoples migrated to Upper Egypt proper. We are a matrilinear tribal clan. Land and water are passed down through women only. During the 13th century B.C. our ethnic minority was pushed by military force out of Upper Egypt for a time. Half of us returned to Dahkla and the others migrated south to the strong holds of the Inyotef Ta-Seti who in reaction to Hyksos/ Kushite collusion in the 13th Dynasty-17 dynasty- had taken up permanent residence in a kingdom somewhere in the highlands of Ethiopia probably somewhere near present day Eritrea. The populations that migrated to Dahklha were chased after by the invading peoples who desired to take our territories. They grew anap ( Ziziphus) trees and ben ben trees ( moringa) for tinctures and oils. Their descendants became the founders of the Coptic orders of the region many tens of centuries later.
Naturally, the Abysinnian branch of our family remained in fairly close contact with the Western Desert branch from dynastic days through to the Christian era.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

One branch of our tribal clan migrated to Siwa.
These were largely men only and of the Ma'ahes caste. Anyone familar with Hadendoa tribal clan is looking at the easternmost branch of our people.
The Hadendoa/Ma'ahes origins are within the Western Desert and we are clearly African indigenous. Copticism grew during Christian days but we must be clear abotu something, the Ma'ahes were responsible for the protection of the Amen temples originally and especially the properties of matrilinear Amenist heiresses.
The patrilinear Ramesides did not honour the old ways of the sepat nomarchs. They were self-styled pharaohs and defined our peoples as Libyan enemies that needed to be stomped upon.
The Ma'ahes/Hadendoa of East Africa were remnants of both predynastic animism which survived Egyptian civilization- we are also the last remaining Amenists that survived in outposts in the remote oases lands protected by the Ma'ahes caste tribals. Early Copticism was a reflection of Amenism. The relationship of the Hadendoa to modern religious culture is quite different than their western and southern ( Ethiopian) cousins because where the Ma'ahes chiefs would evolve into Copts in time- the Hadendoa resisted both Amenism and much later Christianity. They remained ardent Animists. The introduction of Islam converted the Hadendoa and the Mahdist Rebels are a well known terminal branch of this expression.

The problem with describing our ethnic minority today is that we are such an old people that our family tree has branched and merged in some instances with other ethnicities - for example the Beja of North Africa are remnants of our people that have mixed with other African ethnics caught up in regional strife, famine or what have you. The populations of our peoples living in isolated places in Eritrea and the Western Desert Oases had different founders than the Hadendoa who are by the way take their tribal clan name from a specific point in time that should help illustrate the simple complexity of their identity.
The Hadendoa were the warriors who drove off the Hattie (Hittites). Their founders included ethnics from many Nilotic cultures that made up the archers of the Egyptian army. The Hadendoa branch of our tribal peoples, thusly have slightly different ethnic make up than the Western Desert and Eritrean branches because in those societies, the marriage laws and matrilinear tribal customs remained in whole. They did not amongst the Hadendoa who took wives from the Yam and the Irthet.

Getting back to the question- my imm family are Copts. But many of our near relatives living elsewhere in Egypt are Sufi. The Hadendoa are largely Sunni Moslems. Some tribal peoples are still Animists.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
DougM, you too suffer from directional prejudice.
Crayons should never be put in a pencil sharpener.

If either you or Sundiata were a little more honest with your own inner-psyche you could fight the demons of racism in your own heads.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Just because you are from the Western Desert doesn't mean you can claim anything you want about the biological history of populations in that part of the world going back 10,000 years ago. You are no authority on the subject of the ancient biodiversity of populations that existed long before anyone in your clan can remember. I respect your identity based on clan and such, but that does not mean I respect claims that have no scientific validity, especially those without any scientific facts to back them up.

---

This, imo sums up the focal point of his problem. Well put..
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 
Why does this conversation keep getting railroaded back to me? Why can't we discuss Egypt's 18th Dynasty? I know it is difficult for Americans to comprehend that most indigenous people have identities forged over countless centuries- we do.
We've been isolated on tiny oases surrounded by the great sand sea. Oral traditions together with recent import from archeologists like Brugsch and lingual archeologists
+ molecular scientists has helped ethnic groups like the Falasha Jews of Ethiopia and the Dogon of West Africa, the Siwan Tamazight clean the perspective of alof historical dust.

We have notions of who we are where we came from because the legends are repeated by our tribal elders over and over again. But being Afrocentrics don't you already know that? Don't you place emphasis on self-identification of indigenous Africans? Or only the "black" ones? Go check out the neat Su Di We links to YouTube and learn about your people. Then return to this thread reread some of your assertions and the tone and hue of your teeth baring manifestos.
Get with the program. This is the planet earth space ship yall.
 

---

Posted by Maahes (Member # 8482) on :
 



 

---

Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
Why does this conversation keep getting railroaded back to me?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sundiata:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:
Sundiata, I don't know what to say. 20.000 years ago - you know what-I'm sorry _ I can't continue having this one sided dialogue with you you. Your ignoring what I've written and are still attempting to force a crayon into a pencil sharpener.

---

Your misplaced idioms and double talk still doesn't address my questions proposed. If these questions are too difficult for you to confront directly, that's one thing but I have definitely not ignored you, it is only that I'm still waiting on direct answers per citation. You've still offered us nothing but your own seemingly misguided views, which I'm not concerned about.

quote:

---

You are I'm afraid that from your posts that, your emotions verge on the irrational.

---

And your posts/rants, especially this one, verges on the incoherent. Instead of commenting on me as well, which is easy enough of a cop-out, why not address what I've asked you or comment on the citations presented? Is that hard or are YOU too used to dealing with "emotion"? Your generalized comments can't be entertained at the moment.

quote:

---

The women in my family call this sort of conundrum
the objective of an ant lion(ess). You are always correct and gain strength from consuming stupid ants like me.

---

I'm sure that you enjoy hearing yourself talk as much as they do as well, though this still has not addressed one question of mine.

quote:

---

It matters not that you are not reading what I'm writing.You are in my opinion intellectually a bit lazy and as such, the scholarship you present here is misleading and dishonest.

---

And you are still making evasive and overgeneralized comments with no substantiation, notwithstanding that everything you've been refuted on (linguistics, migration patterns, geography, biodiversity) has been under emphasized by you, and once rebutted, you merely contradict whatever you say, set up some sorry ad hominem or straw man to knock over, or completely blabber about irrelevancies, like Jackals, Bananas, and whatever it is women in your family say. Your antics are pretty much observable for all to see, which is why I'm not fooled and am steadfast in my persistence to extract at least some bit of useful information out of you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osiriun:
So much emotionalism over a trivial matter of semantics.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sundiata:
Please see: Biological and Ethnic Identity in New Kingdom Nubia

and:

Migration in the Nile Valley during the New Kingdom period: a preliminary strontium isotope study

---

quote:

---

7.3. Variation by ethnic identity

The strontium isotope data of the individuals in Nubian-style burials (all with values below 0.7078) provide an additional indication that individuals with ratios above 0.7078 may be non-local. Other individuals not buried Nubian-style whose ratios fall within the local range could be Egyptianized native Nubian locals or the children of Egyptian immigrants born locally. It is not surprising that individuals who likely spent their childhood elsewhere are included in the group of people buried at Tombos e the archaeological indications of ethnic identity as seen through architecture (pyramid structure), artefacts (funerary cones), and burial ritual suggest a strong Egyptian presence in addition to the widespread Egyptianization of Nubians during this time. Smith (2003) has suggested that this pyramid tomb was built as a reflection of Siamun’s power and authority in the Egyptian hierarchy. It may have been a way to promote in-group solidarity with other Egyptians in the face of real or perceived Nubian threat.

---

quote:

---

7.4. Variation by biological affinity

These data on the strontium isotope ratios of predicted groups are difficult to interpret, as the differences between Egyptian and Nubian cranial morphology are far from straightforward. Although Egyptian samples examined by Buzon (2006) appeared to form a more morphologically homogenous group than the Nubians, it is clear that these ancient Egyptians and Nubians share many similar features. Several individuals with Egyptian cranial morphology are within the local range. This finding that some individuals who appear local in their strontium isotope ratios would have Egyptian cranial morphology is expected. Considering the time span of the cemetery (1400e1050 AD), it is probable that Egyptian immigrants would have had children at Tombos, who would then have the local strontium isotopic signature in their dental enamel as well as Egyptian cranial morphology. This corresponds well with the presence of individuals who were buried in Egyptian style and have 87Sr/86Sr values in the local range. Individuals with Nubian morphology outside the local range may be natives from another region of Nubia. It is also possible that cranial morphology cannot accurately predict to which ethnic group an individual belongs. A previous examination of Egyptian and Nubian cranial features suggests that Nubians are a morphologically more variable group than Egyptians (some individuals buried as ethnic Nubians with more Egyptian cranial features) (Buzon, 2006).
This obscures the connection between cranial morphology and ethnic indicators, highlighting the disparity between different types of identity. This study calls attention to an additional kind of identity, geographic origin, which also may not correspond with ideas of ethnic and biological affinities. The combination of these multiple lines of evidence certainly complicates the reconstruction of the past, but it also serves to provide a more rich and meaningful picture of people we are investigating.

---

- Buzon (2007)
 

---

Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
 


Thanks alTakruri!

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
What's wrong with Sambo?
Euros make up a story
Black Americans buy into it
denigrating their former heritage.

Sambo is a proud name.
Nothing dumb or slavish
about the name Sambo.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nadeed:
Willing Thinker {What Box}:

quote:

---

Doug. Yonis, Maahes, Ausar, and others ARE North and East Africans, therefore I would trust Yonis when he says that what you are saying is nonsense.

Specifically, that Sambo bull-ish.

Do not project an African American problem onto other Africans.

---

agreed. doug you should listen to your fellow black american negro. he's making alot more sense than you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Actually neither of you are making sense. The term was not invented by African Americans.

---

quote:

---

Sambo bull-ish.

[...][do] not project [...] American problem

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

Mystery Solver wrote:

"Undoubtedly cattle domestication was important development in enhancing survivability on the African landscape, but they [Africans] owe this accomplishment to no one else but themselves. Some of us need to break away from the shackles of the mentality that Africans are and have always been on the receiving end of the mastering of any type of complex human behavior, rather than the complex mutually inclusive reality of being pioneers and givers, along with being followers and receivers, as any other humanity on this planet. In other words, we need to get beyond this "non-Africans are inherently *the* saviors of Africans", and the thereof "Africans are inherently incapable of anything further than the need to be saved" mentality, and let it RIP. "


This is a presupposition on your part.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

I know full well that the founders of "dravidian" cattle culture were East Africans. I posted a link to an important peer-review paper on the subject that goes into some detail and focuses on the Mande people of West Africa as they relate to the Dravidians of West South Asia.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

The Cattle Culture came from the Horn and was imported into India. I made this point a few times.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

I am fully aware of the prejudice that has Africans depending upon other cultures to help them up and over and it is lame. But this is not my view or my worldview.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maahes:

I don't disagree with everything Afrocentrics go on about, just the details and nomenclature.
East Africans introduced Cattle Culture to West India/Pakistan region and these peoples would come to domesticate their own wild cattle Bos indicus.

---