I was reading this entry on gene expression and the conclusion the writer comes to for their "caucasian" features is because of "caucasian" admixture. He also postulates that the reason could also be because of sexual selection ie the women choose mates that have more narrow features thus weeding out the "negro" features but ultimately settles on them having "caucasian" admixture.
Does anyone know where I can find genetic studies on these people or if anyone has any info on them can they please share it with me?
*sigh* We have gone over this issue in several threads of this board including this one: Off Topic: The Fulani
The Fulani have West African E3a lineages at 100%, which is more than Nigerians!! And one could assume the same about mtDNA female lineages.
Their autosomal DNA (all other genes) are actually NO different from other West Africans.
The key thing to understand is that phenotypic traits like lighter complexions, narrow faces and noses, or even hair texture like curly or wavy hair do NOT necessarily indicate "admixture".---As has been discussed here and here!
Fulani (West African)
Somali (East African)
Egyptian (North African)
Tutsi (Central African) Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by TK:
ie the women choose mates that have more narrow features thus weeding out the "negro" features but ultimately settles on them having "caucasian" admixture.
"Weeding out"...an interesting choice of words.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^^LOL Right. Like how the Sudanese try to "weed out" those who do not deny their blackness (since they really can't weed out folks with certain features because they all have them ).
*sigh* If only people could 'weed out' the morons from the rest of us intelligent folk and stuff them some place where they could do no harm are be exploited to some good, then the world would be a better place!
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
The Wodaabe are not mixed with Caucasian people. They are 100% West African. The Wodaabe keep largely to themselves and rarely marry outside of their own group, which has enabled them to keep their cultural and genetic identity pure. The Wodaabe people trace their origins to two brothers, Ali and Degereejo. A sub-group of the Fulani people, the Wodaabe are traditionally known as the Bororo. Although the migrations of the Fulani cattle herders, as well as their physical appearance, have generated a variety of hypotheses about their origins outside the region, current studies demonstrate that Fulani culture belongs to the West African context. Their language, the Pular or Fufulde, onto which some pre-Berber components are grafted, is of the Niger-Congo group.
The Woodabe are West African People they are not mixed with anything. You will not get anybody on this forum saying the Woodabe are mixed except for Michael. But he thinks that All Africans are mixed.
Peace
Posted by Shango (Member # 10893) on :
Wodaabe means Red Fulani. The Cameroonian M'Bororo have some R*1 Y chromosomes. The West Atlantic Peuls in the Fuutas have some U6 and U5 Berber mtdnas. Other Fula groups are purer with mtdna L2 and Y chromosome E3a. It depends on location. On francophone chatrooms they discuss color differences, but at the end of the day Les Peuls son les Peuls. The Fula are the fula..from Takruur to the Nile and back.
The original Peuls/Fulbe were Black. They mixed with Amazigh in North Africa and have a combined culture also mixed with Mande people and others.
Posted by TK (Member # 10103) on :
quote:Originally posted by Supercar:
quote:Originally posted by TK:
ie the women choose mates that have more narrow features thus weeding out the "negro" features but ultimately settles on them having "caucasian" admixture.
"Weeding out"...an interesting choice of words.
Well I didn't know how else to term it. I was basing my choice of word based on the writer of the articles point.
Posted by TK (Member # 10103) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shango: Wodaabe means Red Fulani. The Cameroonian M'Bororo have some R*1 Y chromosomes. The West Atlantic Peuls in the Fuutas have some U6 and U5 Berber mtdnas. Other Fula groups are purer with mtdna L2 and Y chromosome E3a. It depends on location. On francophone chatrooms they discuss color differences, but at the end of the day Les Peuls son les Peuls. The Fula are the fula..from Takruur to the Nile and back.
The original Peuls/Fulbe were Black. They mixed with Amazigh in North Africa and have a combined culture also mixed with Mande people and others.
So some have foreign admixture and others don't. The writer never specified which group he was refering too but he did use the picture that Djehuti posted.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Many of the people you see here are under threat from unfair government policies, invasions from greedy colonists, ranchers and loggers and/or corporate entities seeking to extract oil or minerals from tribal lands. In many cases tribal people are thwarted in their traditional ways of sustenance. They are often persecuted and their rights are violated even in cases where governments claim to be protecting them. Please consider supporting Cultural Survival and Survival International organizations that work to stop these intrusions into our world's patrimony.
quote:Originally posted by Shango: Wodaabe means Red Fulani. The Cameroonian M'Bororo have some R*1 Y chromosomes. The West Atlantic Peuls in the Fuutas have some U6 and U5 Berber mtdnas. Other Fula groups are purer with mtdna L2 and Y chromosome E3a. It depends on location. On francophone chatrooms they discuss color differences, but at the end of the day Les Peuls son les Peuls. The Fula are the fula..from Takruur to the Nile and back.
The original Peuls/Fulbe were Black. They mixed with Amazigh in North Africa and have a combined culture also mixed with Mande people and others.
And since when is mtDNA haplogroup L2 "purer" than L3 when L3 is also just as African??
You are aware that many Berber lineages are also African and not foreign. The only foreign Berber lineages are mtDNA lineages in the far northwest which come from Iberia, other than that the rest are pretty much African including Y male lineages like E3b2 and E3a.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
Shango, your post was very misleading in my opinion regarding the following specifics:
quote:Originally posted by Shango: The Cameroonian M'Bororo have some R*1 Y chromosomes.
R1* is 30 thousand years old in Africa - it is found primarily among Southern Cameroonian's like the Uldeme - many of whom lack the distinctive ethnic features sometimes assocated with Fulani, or Taureg or Dogon, who in turn do not have any R1* lineages.
So whereas Cameroonian Fulani get R1* lineage from other Cameroonians, it does not correlate well to any phenotypical distinction - as you insinuate.
R1* is not found among the Woadaabe either, so it's misleading to use it to explain their phenotype...obviously.
quote: The West Atlantic Peuls in the Futas have some U6 and U5 Berber mtdnas.
This is also incorrect.
U6 is a native North AFrican lineage, though it is not specific to Berber.
U5 is a Eurasian possibly Indian lineage and is very rare in Africa, among Fulani or otherwise.
Yet you conflate and African and non African lineage together and treat them both as non African admixture - this makes no sense.
quote:The original Peuls/Fulbe were Black.
True, but you need to understand something - the earliest anthropological/archeological evidence for Fulani is found in pre-neolithic Algeria.
This is the area where native U6 lineages are among the most frequent in North Africa. So your 'original' so called 'pure' Black Fulani, may have also had U6. U6 is older than E3a by far, and in Africa it is associated principally with E3a, E3b, E2, and A.
quote:They mixed with Amazigh in North Africa
I do agree with you that since the Fulani are native to North Africa they share ancestry with Berber, though this is principally reflected in E3a and L lineages...not in spotty U6 or U5 or R1* - Berber do not have R1 - which you then attempt to conflate by assigning them all to Fulani "collectively" - whether most Fulani groups actually have them, or not.
Your argument is specious.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^^Well, questions answered! Posted by Shango (Member # 10893) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
R1* is 30 thousand years old in Africa - it is found primarily among Southern Cameroonian's like the Uldeme - many of whom lack the distinctive ethnic features sometimes assocated with Fulani, or Taureg or Dogon, who in turn do not have any R1* lineages.
So whereas Cameroonian Fulani get R1* lineage from other Cameroonians, it does not correlate well to any phenotypical distinction - as you insinuate.
R1* is not found among the Woadaabe either, so it's misleading to use it to explain their phenotype...obviously.
quote: The West Atlantic Peuls in the Futas have some U6 and U5 Berber mtdnas.
This is also incorrect.
U6 is a native North AFrican lineage, though it is not specific to Berber.
U5 is a Eurasian possibly Indian lineage and is very rare in Africa, among Fulani or otherwise.
Yet you conflate and African and non African lineage together and treat them both as non African admixture - this makes no sense.
quote:The original Peuls/Fulbe were Black.
True, but you need to understand something - the earliest anthropological/archeological evidence for Fulani is found in pre-neolithic Algeria.
This is the area where native U6 lineages are among the most frequent in North Africa. So your 'original' so called 'pure' Black Fulani, may have also had U6. U6 is older than E3a by far, and in Africa it is associated principally with E3a, E3b, E2, and A.
quote:They mixed with Amazigh in North Africa
I do agree with you that since the Fulani are native to North Africa they share ancestry with Berber, though this is principally reflected in E3a and L lineages...not in spotty U6 or U5 or R1* - Berber do not have R1 - which you then attempt to conflate by assigning them all to Fulani "collectively" - whether most Fulani groups actually have them, or not.
It is found in 17% of Kabyle Amazigh and in other African groups. But, is not really native African. Neither is the U6 mtDna, although it's been there alon time.
Rasol/Djehuti, Black Fulani and Red Fulani are not terms I invented off the top of my head. These are historical terms for the Hal-Pulaar-en and Fulbe.
The Fulbe originated in East Africa and were in Egypt in the distant past. If you read their folktale and legends translated into French and not English, you would know all this.
Plus, if you would read the posting of actual Fulani on their message boards about how they view themselves and the books they wrote in French and compare their culture, custom by custom to surrounding folk in West, North and East Africa, you'd get a better picture.
But, instead you follow DNA scientists who plainly tell you that they did not test evryone or reveal the results of all their tests.
But, you know more than the Fula/Peul/Hal-Pulaar-en/Foula, the Fuutanke themselves.
The Fulani in Cameroon are not natives there. They came from the treks originating in Tekruur.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:R1* is found mostly in NORTHERN CAMEROON!
Not that it makes any difference, excited punctuation nothwithstanding, but it is also found in southern Cameroon:
M173 chromosomes (group R) are observed in the Bantu of southern Cameroon (14.3%) -
The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: Evidence for Bidirectional Corridors of Human Migrations J. R. Luis,1
quote:It is found in 17% of Kabyle Amazigh and in other African groups.
Wrong, you are reading this info on the Kabyle from the Wikipedia article.
17% historic European gene flow (R1*(xR1a)),,
Be careful that is not underived R1 - It means any R1 that is not R1a.
In this case it is essentially historic R1b from Europe, *as stated in the article.*
Neither Euroepans nor Kabyle have underived R1* - a 30 thousand year old lineage found in central Africa.
quote: But, is not really native African. Neither is the U6 mtDna
Wrong again. U6 is found virtually nowhere outside of Africa, and where it is found - in the Levant it is a downstream lineage U6a1 from East Africa, signaling East African expansion into the levant in the neolithic.
quote: Rasol/Djehuti, Black Fulani and Red Fulani are not terms I invented off the top of my head.
^Who said you did? Relevance??
quote: The Fulbe originated in East Africa and were in Egypt in the distant past.
Nope. Proof?
quote: If you read their folktale and legends
Folktales and legends not equal to proof.
quote: But, instead you follow DNA scientists who plainly tell you that they did not test evryone or reveal the results of all their tests.
Lol. You are the one posting on Fulani DNA. I just corrected your errors. If you don't know or care about DNA, then why post on it?
quote: But, you know more than the Fula/Peul/Hal-Pulaar-en/Foula, the Fuutanke themselves.
tsk tsk, red hering, strawman and ad hominem.
The issue under discussion is "your genetic misinformation", which has *nothing* to do with the Fulani tradition.
Please do not blame the Fulani for your misinformation. Posted by Shango (Member # 10893) on :
Is the R1* in the Middle East older or younger than the Cameroonian R1*?
The proofs of Fulani culture relating to Egypt, the Nile and even Israel are wrapped up in these complex folktales. Also, there is serious scholarship on this issue. I don't want to put it all out here, since this facts aren't in English for the most part.
These folktales are key and are not to be ignored. Ironically, the slaves passed info to the African Americans that a lot of info "we" ignore that are hidden in "folktales".
Suppose the French ignored Dogon folktales of the Sirius star System?
I am telling you very seriously that the West African traditions are key to everything and y'all ignore and ignore.
I should shut up now. Y'all might "wake up".
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
The traditions of origin held by the Toroodbe and Wodaabe do give themselves an ultimately biblical Levantine home.
These traditions are not supported by genetics, linquistics, or archaeology.
I am content to leave them in opague compartments. Few on this forum come from a people with a living tradition and so understand little to nothing of the value of tradition or what truths it speaks to.
Science couldn't care less about Pullo knowledge of self or for that matter any people's folklore. That's outside the realm of science (or is it? See new thread that hints elsewise).
I tell you this for sure all halPulaaren don't give a baawo doombnde for what any Haabe or Nasaaraen judges them or their culture and traditions which they have kept and have kept them down the centuries.
For halPulaaren pulaaku is all. The rest is haalaaji from alkaaliyel mbumngum jananum.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shango: I am telling you very seriously that the West African traditions are key to everything and y'all ignore and ignore.
If you want to discuss folktales fine, but don't warp scientific data in and attempt to make it consistent with them.
That's all I ask.
Your comments were entirely about genetics - until we addressed them...then you switched to folktales and complained that no one listens. Ridiculous.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
If you want to discuss folktales fine, but don't warp scientific data in and attempt to make it consistent with them.
That's all I ask.
Your comments were entirely about genetics - until we addressed them...then you switched to folktales and complained that no one listens. Ridiculous.
Valid point in general. Speaking of the emphasized statement, genetics have taken such matters into consideration, and we have seen in some cases, benefit of doubt has been given to some extent, at least as far as ancestry is concerned; for example, some Lemba groups come to mind, and this...
"The presence of M1 in Balanta populations supports the earlier suggestion of their Sudanese origin. Haplogroups U5 and U6, on the other hand, were found to be restricted to populations that are thought to represent the descendants of a southern expansion of Berbers. Particular haplotypes, found almost exclusively in East-African populations, were found in some ethnic groups with an oral tradition claiming Sudanese origin." - Rosa et al.
...while others have been questioned; e.g. the Cushitic Iraqw come to mind.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^^Which comes to show that some folk traditions have historical merit and basis, while others simply do NOT.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
So why don't we look into and attack the folk traditions of whatever people it is you claim to one of the way you gleefully attack African peoples whose cultures you sneer at?
If you don't belong to a people their culture and tradition is not yours to judge. Assessing scientific support or lack of support for a people's folklore is a far cry from the nasty pejoratives you hurl at certain Sudanese for one.
But then because this forum has always had a tinge against Islam as the final disruptor of KM.t, turning into Misr as the Greeks and Romans had earlier turned KM.t into Egypt, bigotted commentary directed toward Arabs (and Arabs define anyone who even so much as only adopts the Arab manner to be Arab) is considered fair not foul here.
All African people bear the right of self-determination; to define themselves, create for themselves, and speak for themselves, and not have non-African others whose pain is not their pain nor joys their joys nor destiny their destiny, define create or speak for them or stand in judgement or decision in proclamation as to how loyally African they are or how much merit attaches to their choice of self-descriptive nomenclature.
The time of ridiculingly vociferous non-Africans is best spent examining, analysing, and solving their own peoples' problems, for their people do indeed have serious problems of their own, instead of dictating to Africans what is and what is not properly or deservingly African.
When a non-African commits cultural suicide by marrying African adopting one specific African identity culture and heritage and moves into and lives in the midst of an African community and becomes one with that community's fate, maybe then they will have some right to glaringly criticize another African people.
Until then ...
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
All folk tradtion has historical merit and basis as they arose from historic processes. What they may lack is scientific support. Merit is a very subjective judgemental term resting on cultural bias.
What one finds meritorious another finds meritless. Who's right? Obviously the one whose cultural values most nearly approximate one's own.
Nothing scientically objective about that.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^^Which comes to show that some folk traditions have historical merit and basis, while others simply do NOT.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Shango:
It is found in 17% of Kabyle Amazigh and in other African groups.
Wrong, you are reading this info on the Kabyle from the Wikipedia article.
17% historic European gene flow (R1*(xR1a)),,
Be careful that is not underived R1 - It means any R1 that is not R1a.
In this case it is essentially historic R1b from Europe, *as stated in the article.*
Neither Euroepans nor Kabyle have underived R1* - a 30 thousand year old lineage found in central Africa.
Speaking of which, i.e. reading from Wikipedia, caution has to be in order before one accepts the said info as credible. This is what was stated in Wikipedia, part of which Rasol had already cited:
The Y chromosome is passed exclusively through the paternal line. The composition is: 48% E3b2, 12% E3b* (xE3b2), 17% R1*(xR1a) and 23% F*(xH,I,J2,K) ((Arredi et al., 2004) [1]), according to the method used by Bosch et al. 2001. We may summarize the historical origins of the Kabyle Y-chromosome pool as follows: 60% Northwest African Upper Paleolithic (H36/E3b* and H38/E3b2), 23% Neolithic (F*(xH,I,J2,K)) and 17% historic European gene flow (R1*(xR1a)).
Now, Arredi et al. had already stated that there is no substantial "Paleolithic" contribution in North African west Afrasan-speaking groups (otherwise known as "Berbers"), even though the lineages themselves derive from ancestral lineages of Paleolithic extraction; whereas the Bosch et al. study sees E3b lineages in Berbers as of Upper Paleolithic extraction. Arredi et al.'s study post-dates (2004) that of the Bosch et al. study (2001). Moreover, Bosch et al. idea of what constitutes "sub-Saharan" Africa is messed up, judging from their seeming incapacity to note that E3b-M35 is of sub-Saharan origin. Nonetheless, Wikipedia claim is a far cry from what is actually presented in the Bosch et al. study:
Group IX haplotypes (fig. 2gi) are found in the Middle East and are most prevalent in Europe (Underhill et al. 2000). Group IX also contains three local Iberian haplotypes: H101, H102, and H103. The latter, which is defined by derived mutation M167 (also known as "SRY-2627"), is equivalent to Y-chromosome haplogroup 22 as described by Hurles et al. (1999). These authors examined haplogroup 22 worldwide and showed that it has a geographical distribution almost restricted to northern Iberia. Moreover, on the basis of the dating of microsatellite and minisatellite diversity within haplogroup 22, they suggested that it arose in Iberia a few thousand years ago.
Group IX is found at a low frequency **(3%)** in NW Africa. In Iberia, 56% of the Y chromosomes carry H104, which is found across Europe, with increasing frequencies toward the west; its defining mutation, M173, may have been introduced by the first Upper Paleolithic colonizations of Europe (Semino et al. 2000). It may not have been the only lineage introduced into Iberia during the Upper Paleolithic, but it seems to have been the only one that has persisted in the extant Iberian gene pool. Of five H104 NW African chromosomes, one had an STR haplotype identical to that in an H104 Iberian chromosome, one was one mutation step away from Iberian H104 chromosomes, and the remaining three were two mutation steps away. Moreover, the mean repeat-size difference within 53 H104 Iberian STR haplotypes was 2.8 (range 011). The phylogenetic relations among H104 STR haplotypes is shown by a reduced median network (fig. 3c), in which the NW African chromosomes appear to be clearly embedded within the Iberian diversity. The time necessary to accumulate the STR-allele differences between NW African and Iberian H104 chromosomes was estimated at 2,100 ± 450 years. This close STR-haplotype similarity seems to indicate that H104 chromosomes found in NW Africa are a subset of the European gene pool and that they may have been introduced during **historic times.**
...meaning that European, more precisely Iberian male mediated gene flow, is much more recent in coastal North African west-Afrasan speakers, who are specifically the following:
H50 found in one Moroccan "Arab", and H104 found in one southern Moroccan "west-Afrasan/"Berber"" speaker, three Moroccan "Arab" speakers, and one north-central Moroccan "west-Afrasan" speaker.
Bosch et al. go onto conclude that:
So far, our analyses have allowed a clear dissection of almost all NW African and Iberian paternal lineages into several components with distinct historical origins. In this way, the historical origins of the NW African Y-chromosome pool may be summarized as follows: 75% NW African Upper Paleolithic (H35, H36, and H38), 13% Neolithic (H58 and H71), **4%** historic European gene flow (group IX, H50, H52), and 8% recent sub-Saharan African (H22 and H28). In contrast, the origins of the Iberian Y-chromosome pool may be summarized as follows: 5% recent NW African, 78% Upper Paleolithic and later local derivatives (group IX), and 10% Neolithic (H58, H71). No haplotype assumed to have originated in sub-Saharan Africa was found in our Iberian sample. It should be noted that H58 and H71 are not the only haplotypes present in the Middle East and that the Neolithic wave of advance could have brought other lineages to Iberia and NW Africa. However, the homogeneity of STR haplotypes within the most ancient biallelic haplotypes in each region indicates a single origin during the past, with possible minor reintroductions, with the Neolithic expansion, from the Middle East. Thus, Neolithic contributions may be slightly underestimated.
^^Whereby Hg E is denoted by the following:
H35=E3b-M78, H38=E3b-M81, and H36=E3b-M35; H22=E3a-M2, and H28=E1-M33
Hg J denoted by the following:
H58=J2*-M172
Hg F denoted by the following:
H71=F*-M89
Hg I denoted by the following:
H50=I1b2-M26, and H52=I*-M170.
Hg R denoted by the following:
H104=R*-M173
Thus note that the "4%" "historic", NOT pre-historic, European contribution quite likely from the Iberian peninsula, is a combination of I lineage (.6%), which was found in only one Moroccan "Arab" speaking individual AND R lineages (2.8%) found in five Moroccan individauls; three of them "Arab" speakers, and two of them "west-Afrasan" speakers.
Ps - otherwise, I would like to know where Shango came up with those figures for the "Kabyle".
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
they may lack is scientific support...
...is considered to be without scientific "merit"; it is all contextual. Posted by Hikuptah (Member # 11131) on :
When we speak of african features we think of big broad nose big lips and darkskin but that is not the only feature of an african actually every feature in the world is known to africans even the features of europeans is african. I am an Egyptian born and raised in Egypt and if u would see me u would think Arab or Middle Eastern but i am AFrican pure African Egyptian no Admixture nor am i half white. This is the same thing that goes on in Sudan Ethiopia Somalia Eritrea most arabs think that the people of the Horn have ancient arab admixture in them but this is wrong actually arabs are the ones with Horn of Africa blood in them. Most European Historians when they see africans that look a little different from there african counterparts say they have caucasion in them Like what they say about the People of the HOrn this is the works of educated fools who use racial bigotry that african features are ugly and white features are pretty a twisted view. I have many HOrn of African friends from Sudan Somalia Eritrea Ethiopia and i dont see no difference between the Horn of Africa people and My people of Egypt i even consider them the same as my people for there are many Sudanese in Egypt and there are many Eritreans and Ethiopians if i would to tell u who the Ancient Egyptians were i would say the People of the Horn of Africa.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Quite true, but he didn't say scientific merit he said historical merit.
quote:Originally posted by Supercar:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
they may lack is scientific support...
...is considered to be without scientific "merit"; it is all contextual.
Posted by kembu (Member # 5212) on :
quote:Originally posted by TK: Does anyone know if the Wodaabe is mixed?
I was reading this entry on gene expression and the conclusion the writer comes to for their "caucasian" features is because of "caucasian" admixture. He also postulates that the reason could also be because of sexual selection ie the women choose mates that have more narrow features thus weeding out the "negro" features but ultimately settles on them having "caucasian" admixture.
Does anyone know where I can find genetic studies on these people or if anyone has any info on them can they please share it with me?
Woodhaabhe are a Fulani (Fulbe) sub-group who were cast off their main group for their reputedly tabooish cultural practices that differed markedly from the mainstream. Like other Fulani groups, they have also mixed, more or less, with other African ethnic groups. However, "caucasoid" features among Africans does not necessarily indicate admixture, especially with the Fulas.
Posted by kembu (Member # 5212) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: *sigh* We have gone over this issue in several threads of this board including this one: Off Topic: The Fulani
The Fulani have West African E3a lineages at 100%, which is more than Nigerians!! And one could assume the same about mtDNA female lineages.
There are Fulani Nigerians! That is, even if we discount the mixed ones. The word "Fulani" was coined specifically to refer to Nigerian and Nigerien Fulbe. Talk some sense.
BTW, Fulanis are not indigenous West Africans; the original Fulbe are of indigenous Northern African stock (Ka-tima).
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by kembu:
BTW, Fulanis are not indigenous West Africans; the original Fulbe are of indigenous Northern African stock (Ka-tima).
This statement makes no sense. West Africa is part of Africa. Everyone who now lives there migrated into that region; so, what's the point? Should we then say that all "west Africans" are not indigenous "West African"? West Africa is intra-African, not extra-African!
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Would you care to develop this statement with fuller citation and from a multi-disciplinary perspective please.
quote:Originally posted by kembu: Fulanis are not indigenous West Africans; the original Fulbe are of indigenous Northern African stock (Ka-tima).
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
The reason I ask the above is that Fulani traditions, traditions of ethnies in proximity of and having intimate contact with Fulani, linguistics, archaeology, genetics, all seem to run counter to those anthropologists who propose exclusive Amazigh origins for Fulani, though there's a very slight mostly imperceptable Amazigh infusion in Fulani.
In general the peoples of north and west Africa assigned Fulani a world of their own, neither Sudanese, Berber, nor Arab. Gnawa will call Fulani, as black skinned as any of them, the white man of Africa. Beydani Maurs attacked Fulani officers in Mauritania's military as blacks when anti-Maur "rioting" was rife in that country even though historically even before the days of Waar Dyaabe 1000 years ago "Fulani" were known as the bani Warith a sub-tribe of the Juddala who are Zenaga (Sanhaja) clan Imazighen.
Posted by Ayazid (Member # 2768) on :
Egyptian (North African)
Where did you get this image from? I think this person is actually a Sudanese, not Egyptian. Southern Egyptians don`t wear this way.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Would you care to develop this statement with fuller citation and from a multi-disciplinary perspective please.
quote:Originally posted by kembu: Fulanis are not indigenous West Africans; the original Fulbe are of indigenous Northern African stock (Ka-tima).
Where would north Africa begin and West Africa end?
Take into context the Holocene where the sahara is largely a grassland, and during which times Africans domesticated cattle.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayazid: Egyptian (North African)
Where did you get this image from? I think this person is actually a Sudanese, not Egyptian. Southern Egyptians don`t wear this way.
Wrong.
Posted by Underpants Man (Member # 3735) on :
I doubt Egyptians really wear one uniform set of clothing, anyway. There probably doesn't exist one "Egyptian dress" that a person has to wear to identify as Egyptian.
Besides, don't Muslims often wear flat-topped like that, regardless of location?
Posted by Hikuptah (Member # 11131) on :
Actually Egptians & Sudanese dress the same only in the south but usually the sudanese have big turbans i live in southern egypt Aswan there are many Sudanese there Sudanese have basically become arabs they really dont like to be called africans they call them selves Arabs for some strange reason they dont even like to have a african identity
Posted by Ceelgabo_11 (Member # 8942) on :
I agree with Ayazid...that this man on average looks like Northern Sudanese or Somali or Eritrean than present day Egyptian.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hikuptah: Actually Egptians & Sudanese dress the same only in the south but usually the sudanese have big turbans i live in southern egypt Aswan there are many Sudanese there Sudanese have basically become arabs they really dont like to be called africans they call them selves Arabs for some strange reason they dont even like to have a african identity
But there is definitely a reason behind it, as strange and crazy as it is!
quote:Originally posted by Ceelgabo_11: I agree with Ayazid...that this man on average looks like Northern Sudanese or Somali or Eritrean than present day Egyptian.
Ceelgabo, what you do not realize is that not all Egyptians have mixed or intermingled with Arabs, Europeans, and other foreigners.
There ARE still plenty of Egyptians left especially in the rural areas of southern Egypt who maintain their African looks.
Like the man above:
Posted by MichaelFromQuebec (Member # 10907) on :
Welcome back Djehuti.
Posted by Ceelgabo_11 (Member # 8942) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Ceelgabo_11: I agree with Ayazid...that this man on average looks like Northern Sudanese or Somali or Eritrean than present day Egyptian.
Ceelgabo, what you do not realize is that not all Egyptians have mixed or intermingled with Arabs, Europeans, and other foreigners.
There ARE still plenty of Egyptians left especially in the rural areas of southern Egypt who maintain their African looks.
Like the man above:
Yes there are plenty of Egyptian that look like this man..but the vast majority of Egyptians today due to 3000+ years of mixing with Greeks, Assyrians, Romans, Arabs,and Mamaluks are know lighter than this man on average.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
I suggest you leave Africa and it's peoples alone and worry about your own European breathren. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ceelgabo_11: Yes there are plenty of Egyptian that look like this man..but the vast majority of Egyptians today due to 3000+ years of mixing with Greeks, Assyrians, Romans, Arabs,and Mamaluks are know lighter than this man on average.
That's because the vast majority of the Egyptian population today lives in the Delta. It was the opposite in ancient times-- with the vast majority of the population living in the valley especially in the south.
3,000 years of immigration makes a whole lot of difference
Posted by MichaelFromQuebec (Member # 10907) on :
quote:Well hello my poor deluded, dimwitted, friend.
No need for insults.
quote:Are you still in denial about black 'Arab' Sudanese and everyone else in East Africa as well as black Indians and Australians?
We both have our views lets leave it at that.
quote:I suggest you leave Africa and it's peoples alone and worry about your own European breathren.
All this just because I dont agree with you?
I guess eurocentrism and afrocentrism have something in common they completely dislike what doesn't suit their views.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec: No need for insults.
This board has no need for stupidity.
quote:We both have our views lets leave it at that.
Sure, you believe that 'Arab' Sudanese are not black but green and that black Indians and black Australians don't exist. Whereas I accept reality.
quote:All this just because I dont agree with you?
Nope. All this because you are totally ignorant about Africa and don't know what the hell you're talking about when it comes to African peoples and their culture.
quote:I guess eurocentrism and afrocentrism have something in common they completely dislike what doesn't suit their views.
Of course, and BOTH seem to be based on pseudo-scholarship and straight up B.S. Like YOUR Eurocentric bias. (By the way, I'm not Afrocentric I'm not even black.) Posted by tuaregwodabe (Member # 11813) on :
the wodabe for the people who don't know and please don't argue about this one cause I am part wodabe myself, is a sub group of fulani. They speak Fulani and live in Mali close to the tuareg. The men wear turbans. They are said to come from Ethiopia. They are very tall and the women have straight long hair and they all have very long straight noses.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
[QUOTE]
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by tuaregwodabe: the wodabe for the people who don't know and please don't argue about this one cause I am part wodabe myself, is a sub group of fulani. They speak Fulani and live in Mali close to the tuareg. The men wear turbans. They are said to come from Ethiopia. They are very tall and the women have straight long hair and they all have very long straight noses.
Straight long hair?lol! Umm...Not quite, that's pushing it. Too bad this post the post was from 2006.
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We have gone over this issue in several threads of this board including this one: Off Topic: The Fulani
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Right. Like how the Sudanese try to "weed out" those who do not deny their blackness (since they really can't weed out folks with certain features because they all have them ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I was basing my choice of word based on the writer of the articles point.
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No need for insults.