quote:

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Though, by the end of the book, there is no doubt that he believes Ancient Egypt was anything BUT African!

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Mansa Musa:

quote:

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Though, by the end of the book, there is no doubt that he believes Ancient Egypt was anything BUT African!

---

I think you may want to rephrase that sentence.

Poe most certainly believes that the Ancient Egyptians were an indegenious African people.

Also I don't think the comment about a melting pot of cultures is very accurate as Khemet itself was it's own culture. Poe spends alot of time in the book discussing the fallacies of typological race, the double standards of the "One Drop Rule" of Blackness in America and that of the "True Negro" concept that has historically plagued anhtropology (along with the Hamitic Hypothesis as you mentioned).

I have the book, it was a good read. Admittedly I too got a bit bored with the chapters on Freemasonry and what not, I skipped them too out of interest in the racial and mythological subjects. But now that that topic has been done to death I think I'll re-read the book from start to finish as some of those cultural influences he talks about concerning Freemasonry are interesting when you learn more about it.

I recommend the book for anyone interested in the origins of Western Civilization, Ancient Egypt's African essence and a general insight into events and themes in history that are often overlooked.

Poe is an excellent writer and researcher. I found myself going back and fourth to the index to look at his sources for the more controversial claims in the book and found them to be highly reliable.

---

I think what he means is that there were Greeks, Pheonicians, and all types of "colors" of people in Kemet that eventually led to an Egypt that was more mixed than the original people.
 

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Posted by QUEEN OF THE THE UNIVERSE (Member # 9831) on :
 


interesting!


http://www.richardpoe.com/blackspark.html

this is his homepage

i was looking for some books to read in the summer i think i will put this one my list
 

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Posted by Underpants Man (Member # 3735) on :
 
I lean to the left side of politics (though I have mixed feelings about capitalism), but this still sounds like an interesting book.
 

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Posted by Mansa Musa (Member # 6800) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
I think what he means is that there were Greeks, Pheonicians, and all types of "colors" of people in Kemet that eventually led to an Egypt that was more mixed than the original people.

---

quote:

---

Were the Ancient Egyptians Black? That is entirely up to you. But were
they biologically African? It would seem that they were. After
considering the full range of anatomical, linguistic, cultural, archaeological,
and genetic evidence, Shomarka Keita feels confident in concluding that the
original Egyptians, by which he means the pre-dynastic people of southern Egypt,
who founded Egyptian civilization evolved entirely in Africa. Both culturally
and biologically, he says, they were more related to other Africans than they
were to non-Africans from Europe or Asia.

Through the years, Keita believes, the Egyptians appear to have blended, with
many immigrants and invaders, many of whom were lighter-skinned and more
Caucasoid in appearance than the original Egyptians. Libyans, Persians,
Syro-Palestinians, Assyrians, Greeks, and Romans all left their imprint on the
faces of Egypt. But Egyptian Civilization remained profoundly African to the
very end.

Keita himself rarely resorts to such crudely racial expressions as black
and white. But if we might be forgiven a momentary lapse into everyday
speech, it would probably not hurt to concieve of Keita's theory as the polar
opposite of the Hamitic Hypothesis. Whereas the Hamitic theorists saw Egypt as a
nation of White people that was gradually infiltrated by blacks, the biological
evidence seems to suggest that it was more like a black nation that was
gradually infiltrated by whites.

Black Spark, White Fire: Black, White or Biologically African page. 471

---

quote:

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Originally posted by IIla:
Poe is really well respected among many in academia, and especially among Afrocentrics. He's a conservative who is also considered and defines himself as Eurocentered, but he is not at all biased or racist. He simply chooses to focus on the cultures of Europe which is why he wrote Black Spark White Fire.

I remember when this book first came out, there was a wonderful site called Africana.com...it had a lot of scholarly articles, but unfortunately Time/Warner bought it and turned it into Blackvoices.

Anyway, Africana.com had a great interview with Poe. I may have a copy so I'll post it when I find it. In Poes own words he most definitely asserts that Greek culture was very much influenced by Egypt. He remarked that Egyptians are biologically African, and had strong affinities with other African people in terms of their culture, art, religion and race, and therefore, by modern western standards, Egyptians would have been considered Black, so we can say that Blacks influenced Greek culture.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Underpants Man:
I lean to the left side of politics (though I have mixed feelings about capitalism), but this still sounds like an interesting book.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Does Poe make any references to Bernal's Black Athena or any study into the Afrasian influence on Greek culture??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IIla:
Poe is really well respected among many in academia, and especially among Afrocentrics. He's a conservative who is also considered and defines himself as Eurocentered, but he is not at all biased or racist. He simply chooses to focus on the cultures of Europe which is why he wrote Black Spark White Fire.

I remember when this book first came out, there was a wonderful site called Africana.com...it had a lot of scholarly articles, but unfortunately Time/Warner bought it and turned it into Blackvoices.

Anyway, Africana.com had a great interview with Poe. I may have a copy so I'll post it when I find it. In Poes own words he most definitely asserts that Greek culture was very much influenced by Egypt. He remarked that Egyptians are biologically African, and had strong affinities with other African people in terms of their culture, art, religion and race, and therefore, by modern western standards, Egyptians would have been considered Black, so we can say that Blacks influenced Greek culture.

---

Yes, Africana.com was a good site and I did read the interview over there when they had it.

It's not there anymore.

Fortunately I saved the interview.

Poe does stress that his book is Euro-centered in response to the accusation that he is Afrocentric.

But if you read the introduction to his book in Black Spark, White Fire he explains that he has been facinated by Egypt since he was a small child and always planned to write a book about the civilization for years.

I highly recommend this book for anyone interested in the subject of the African essence of the Egyptian civilization and it's people as well as the Egyptian influence on Greek civilization and Western civilization at large.

Poe really runs the full gauntlent here. He talks about everything from ancient history to archeology, linguistics, anthropology and the evolution of Western scholarship on this subject.

Everyone from Martin Bernal to Mary Lefkowitz, George G.M. James, Cheikh Anta Diop, C. Loring Brace, Shomarka Keita, Rick Kittles, Ivan Van Sertima, Frank Snowden, Frank Yurco, Joseph Greenberg, Chris Ehret and Theodore Celenko as well as many more are mentioned and referenced in this book.

Anyway here is the interview:

quote:

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Did African Explorers Civilize Ancient Europe? An Interview with Richard Poe

by Hisham Aidi

Ancient Egypt has long held tremendous fascination and symbolism for African Americans as a source of identification and pride. Ancient Egyptian imagery appears in African American popular culture and religion, and narratives of ancient Egyptian grandeur and glory hold a special resonance for many African Americans. On any given day on Harlem's bustling 125th Street, for example, one might encounter a religious group called the Islamic Hebrew Nubians who don "Pharaonic" robes and turbans and preach to pedestrians about the lost tribes of Egypt, while young African Americans shop for clothing at Nefertiti Fashions or marvel at the artifacts displayed in a store called Yaiqab's Treasures of Egypt.

Although many African Americans seem to take Egypt's African heritage for granted, scholars have long debated the origins of ancient Egyptian culture and society. Confronted with the archaeological remains of an obviously impressive and advanced ancient culture in Africa, many 19th century European scholars insisted that Egyptian civilization must have originated in Europe or the Near East. This idea has been challenged by many subsequent researchers, perhaps most influentially by Martin Bernal, whose Black Athena: The Afroasiatic Roots of Classical Civilization, Vol. 1 (Rutgers University Press, 1989) triggered numerous debates. Bernal not only rejected the idea that ancient Egypt was a poor cousin to ancient Greece, as had often been proposed, he argued that in fact, Greek civilization was massively indebted to African and Asian influences, primarily to the Egyptians and Phoenicians. Recently, Bernal's thesis has received strong support from unlikely quarters, from conservative political commentator Richard Poe.

In Black Spark, White Fire: Did African Explorers Civilize Ancient Europe? (Prima Publishing, 1999), Poe, an award-winning author, follows historical and archaeological clues from southern Egypt as far north as ancient Colchis, the modern nation of Georgia. He demonstrates that the ancient Egyptians were a seafaring people, who traveled as far as southern Russia and colonized parts of southern Europe, including Greece. Poe scrutinizes the words of the ancient Greek historian Herodotus (450 BC), who observed that the Colchians looked like the Egyptians (he described them as "melagchroes," which means "black-skinned," and "onlotriches," which means "woolly-haired") and, like them, practiced circumcision. Poe discusses archeological evidence including Colchian linen, which, like Egyptian linen, was woven on "a vertical two-beam loom, whose distinctive pyramid-shaped weights have been found in abundance in Georgian archaeological sites." In light of such evidence, Poe asks, "If the Egyptians would sail 250 miles to buy pine wood in Byblos, and 900 miles to obtain gold, incense, and exotic beads of Ethiopia, why would they not have sailed 560 miles to Greece in whose markets all the riches of Europe could be found? Scholars have never provided a satisfactory answer to this question." Poe draws our attention to astonishing evidence of an Egyptian presence in ancient Greece, including the Pyramid of Amphion. Towards the latter part of his 500-page book, Poe addresses another explosive topic: the race of the ancient Egyptians. "Were the Egyptians black?" Poe asks, echoing a question long debated by scholars. The answer to this question, Poe argues, depends on what standard or definition of blackness is adopted; if the "one-drop rule" commonly used in the US is used, then most Egyptians would have qualified as black, he argues. He states emphatically, however, that the ancient Egyptians were "biologically African," and musters cultural, archaeological, and scientific evidence to demonstrate that the original Egyptians evolved in Africa, not, as had been argued by some scholars, in the Near East or Mediterranean. Poe also highlights Egyptian customs which came from regions further south, including the Egyptian habit of mummifying the dead, ancestor worship, circumcision, and clapping and wearing animal masks during religious rites. "The evidence is strong -- and stronger all the time -- that large portions of Egyptian culture can indeed be traced to the heart of Africa," Poe writes.

Finally, Poe argues that since white Americans often tend to lay claim to ancient Greece, African Americans should have every right to identify with ancient Egypt, offering a powerful rebuttal of conservative and liberal attacks on Afrocentrism. Prof. Molefi Asante of Temple University, one of Afrocentrism's key theorists, has described Poe's book as "Brilliant...a classic volume." I recently spoke to Richard Poe by phone in New York City.

Black Spark, White Fire is an intriguing, powerfully argued book, but one of the things that made it particularly interesting to me, and which readers may not know, is that you're a self-proclaimed conservative. Is that right?

I am a conservative. I'm a libertarian -- I believe that government is best which governs least.

How has Black Spark, White Fire been received by the public in general, and the African American community in particular?

As Martin Bernal says, there are different phases of reaction to a controversial idea. The first step is: ignore. The major media, the New York Times Book Review and other major publications, have ignored the book, which is noteworthy because I had some glowing academic reviews. The book was warmly received in the black community, for which I am very grateful. However, I envisioned the book for an audience far beyond the black community, reaching a white audience.

The book is designed to convince the most skeptical European-American. As a conservative, I know people who are virulently opposed to these ideas. The book is trying to defuse and disarm the critics but it's not getting mass media publicity.

The main criticism leveled at Bernal's argument, which can also be said of your book, is that you both rely heavily on myth and legend, for example, in your use of Herodotus.

That is a bogus criticism. Neither Bernal nor I rely on legends. We use legends as a line of inquiry to corroborative evidence. British anthropologist Arthur Evans discovered the Palace of Minos in the same way. He was led in part by the legends and folk beliefs of the Cretan people. Heinrich Schliemann's discovery of Troy was guided by Homer.

Your discussion of the Pyramid of Amphion in Greece is fascinating - why haven't the pyramids of Greece received more attention from Afrocentrists or scholars of other persuasions?

The Greek archaeologist Theodore Spyropoulos showed us around one pyramid. It occupies a commanding position overlooking the plain of Argos, where many legends took place. On the highway outside Argos, a sign says, "The Pyramid of Elenizo," but no explanation is given. They say it's a mystery who built it. The site itself, unlike others, is overgrown with grass. Spyropoulos thinks the pyramid is being deliberately ignored for political reasons. Greeks don't like the idea of others having built their civilization. There's a "we did everything" attitude, a knee-jerk nationalism, not so much racism.

While excavating in a pyramidal structure near Thebes, Spyropoulos found areas underground, subterranean tunnels and channels, which he felt were tombs. He thought he could find belongings and royal treasures but he was prevented from proceeding. This was the 1970s, a dictatorship was in power, and he was ordered to leave Thebes. Most Afrocentrists are not even aware of the Greek pyramids. I give credit to Bernal who mentions them in Black Athena II. There is a book out in Greek called The Pyramids of Greece. I haven't read the book, but I'm told it is skeptical and downplays Egyptian influence.

You say there's a double standard at work when white critics of Afrocentrism say it's wrong for black Americans to identify with ancient Egypt. As you write, "an Anglo-Saxon descended from wild Germanic tribes could legitimately take pride in his cultural inheritance -- however distant and tenuous -- from ancient Greece. But a black African must not take pride in ancient Egypt." Can you elaborate on this point?

The standard talking point of people who attack Afrocentrism is, "I'm Scottish, I don't claim a Greek civilization." That's a lie. Speaking as a European American myself, the European Americans who say they don't think of themselves as European, as not considering Europe as their heritage, are lying through their teeth. Every white European American has a claim to every European civilization.

In the introduction to Black Spark, White Fire, I say I'm proud of European culture. I say that in my opinion, The Iliad and The Odyssey are the two greatest works of literature. I don't set out to beat up on either of the two cultures [European and African]. Any person who does not have self-respect, respect for their own heritage, cannot respect others.

You address the question of whether the Egyptians were "black," and you conclude that whether the ancient Egyptians were "black" depends on how you define black. But you make a strong case that the Egyptians were "biologically African." Can you discuss this distinction?

Africa is a distinct entity. Historically there has been limited access to the continent. People on the African continent are genetically distinct. The fact that people look different -- that there is a gradation in skin color and hair fuzziness the more north you get - is less important than the evidence provided by Shomarka Keita [a bio-anthropologist at Howard University] that Egyptians evolved in Africa, and have more in common with other Africans than with non-Africans from Asia or Europe.

Sickle cell anemia, thought to be limited to Africa, comes up in southern Europe. Cases have come up in Greece and Italy. So are North Africans more like Europeans or are Europeans more like North Africans? Europe was peopled by Africans, who have been seafaring since the Stone Age. So, of course, it all comes down to one's definition of blackness and that's where anti-Afrocentric arguments become problematic.

Loring C. Brace is often cited as someone who's proven that the ancient Egyptians weren't black. He measures skulls and runs craniological evidence through computers, and concludes that sub-Saharan Africans are black, and Egyptians are in a group more similar to Europeans -- but he also considered Nubians and Somalis more like Europeans. And yet the evidence is there to be seen. Many modern Egyptians, many of them descendants of ancient Egyptians, look black. Why measure skulls and use a computer for this conclusion? Ethiopians and Somalis have been described as Caucasoid before; there is a double standard here, too.

Scholars cannot have more than one definition of blackness - the one-drop rule for the US, and for Africa the 19th century standard of the "true Negro" of the original black race with the darkest of complexions and the most Negroid of features. In the 19th century, people in Africa without the most pronounced Negro features were not considered black. The Somalis were considered Hamitic. The differences you see in Africa were not caused by marriage with [non-African] outsiders -- Africans evolved that way. Do Somalis look more European with their features or do Europeans look more like Somalis?

Would you call yourself an Afrocentrist?

I'm wary of the phrase "Afrocentrist," just as I'm wary of any political label. I wouldn't call myself an Afrocentrist. I'm not about being Afro-centered. I'm Euro-centered. My book is Eurocentric, it's about the colonization of Europe by Egyptians. Europe is the center of my intellectual world. But my book is sympathetic to Afrocentrism. And again, you don't have to beat up on another culture to be proud of your own. I'm proud to be Russian Jewish and Mexican American, and I have no problem with the idea that Africa colonized much of Europe.

About the Author

Photo: Black Spark, White Fire: Did African Explorers Civilize Ancient Europe? (Prima Publishing, 1999), by Richard Poe. Courtesy of Prima Publishing.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Underpants Man:
I bet Dienekes must feel very pissed off about this.

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Yeah he's not a fan of Poe.

If you search for "Dienekes Pontikos richard Poe" I think there is an article in his blog with a critical review of the book that uses very fallacious logic which Poe mentions in the interview above.

Edit: Poe analyses Pontikos in his own blog.

But what I was referring to was Pontikos hosting a review of the book in his blog.

Try "Dienekes Pontikos Black Spark Review".
 

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Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansa Musa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Underpants Man:
I bet Dienekes must feel very pissed off about this.

---

Yeah he's not a fan of Poe.

If you search for "Dienekes Pontikos richard Poe" I think there is an article in his blog with a critical review of the book that uses very fallacious logic which Poe mentions in the interview above.

Edit: Poe analyses Pontikos in his own blog.

But what I was referring to was Pontikos hosting a review of the book in his blog.

Try "Dienekes Pontikos Black Spark Review".

---

quote:

---

Stage 1. Ignore -- In which scholars remain silent and pretend the new idea does not exist.

Stage 2. Dismiss - In which scholars ridicule the new idea as being too silly to merit a serious response.

Stage 3. Attack - In which scholars seek to discredit both the work and the author, using personal attacks in tandem with scientific and scholarly arguments.

Stage 4. Absorb - In which scholars attempt to minimize the work's importance by saying that it covers old ground and is simply rehashing what everyone already knows.

---

The entry touched on what you were saying about it not arguing against the evidence but on merely ridiculing it using very flawed logic.

Poe and his readers (the entry got a few comments) picked up on the fallacious reasoning in the review.

I thought it was funny how the review was supposed to be about the book and instead became an attack on Afrocentrism, a word which was included in the review many more times than the name "Poe" or the title of the book.

This "reviewing reviews" thing that Poe picked up on is a good idea and makes for interesting discussion.
 

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Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
 
Egypt a Land of Negroes for Nearly 4000 Years in 20 Images



http://www.mightymall.com/Faces.Millenniums.Before.Christ/02-16-200-00-01.htm


Take care,


Marc Washington
 

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Posted by Pax Dahomensis (Member # 9851) on :
 
Marc:
Could you please tell me where the N°15 pic is from?
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Q: You say there's a double standard at work when white critics of Afrocentrism say it's wrong for black Americans to identify with ancient Egypt. As you write, "an Anglo-Saxon descended from wild Germanic tribes could legitimately take pride in his cultural inheritance -- however distant and tenuous -- from ancient Greece. But a black African must not take pride in ancient Egypt." Can you elaborate on this point?

A: The standard talking point of people who attack Afrocentrism is, "I'm Scottish, I don't claim a Greek civilization." That's a lie. Speaking as a European American myself, the European Americans who say they don't think of themselves as European, as not considering Europe as their heritage, are lying through their teeth. Every white European American has a claim to every European civilization.

In the introduction to Black Spark, White Fire, I say I'm proud of European culture. I say that in my opinion, The Iliad and The Odyssey are the two greatest works of literature. I don't set out to beat up on either of the two cultures [European and African]. Any person who does not have self-respect, respect for their own heritage, cannot respect others.

---

Indeed. You see this type of double standard among many Eurocentric whites. A perfect example-- Hore!

Also, how could it be wrong for black Americans who are of African ancestry to idenitfy with Egyptians who are Africans, when Europeans and those of European descent have been identifying with Egyptians much longer?!! [eek!]

quote:

---

Q: You address the question of whether the Egyptians were "black," and you conclude that whether the ancient Egyptians were "black" depends on how you define black. But you make a strong case that the Egyptians were "biologically African." Can you discuss this distinction?

Africa is a distinct entity. Historically there has been limited access to the continent. People on the African continent are genetically distinct. The fact that people look different -- that there is a gradation in skin color and hair fuzziness the more north you get - is less important than the evidence provided by Shomarka Keita [a bio-anthropologist at Howard University] that Egyptians evolved in Africa, and have more in common with other Africans than with non-Africans from Asia or Europe..

---

quote:

---

..Sickle cell anemia, thought to be limited to Africa, comes up in southern Europe. Cases have come up in Greece and Italy. So are North Africans more like Europeans or are Europeans more like North Africans? Europe was peopled by Africans, who have been seafaring since the Stone Age. So, of course, it all comes down to one's definition of blackness and that's where anti-Afrocentric arguments become problematic..

---

It sure can.

quote:

---

..Loring C. Brace is often cited as someone who's proven that the ancient Egyptians weren't black. He measures skulls and runs craniological evidence through computers, and concludes that sub-Saharan Africans are black, and Egyptians are in a group more similar to Europeans -- but he also considered Nubians and Somalis more like Europeans. And yet the evidence is there to be seen. Many modern Egyptians, many of them descendants of ancient Egyptians, look black. Why measure skulls and use a computer for this conclusion? Ethiopians and Somalis have been described as Caucasoid before; there is a double standard here, too..

---

But Brace corrected his mistakes as can be seen in his more recent study.

quote:

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..Scholars cannot have more than one definition of blackness - the one-drop rule for the US, and for Africa the 19th century standard of the "true Negro" of the original black race with the darkest of complexions and the most Negroid of features. In the 19th century, people in Africa without the most pronounced Negro features were not considered black. The Somalis were considered Hamitic. The differences you see in Africa were not caused by marriage with [non-African] outsiders -- Africans evolved that way. Do Somalis look more European with their features or do Europeans look more like Somalis?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kyle:
I think they were white.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Kyle:
I think they were white.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
But Brace corrected his mistakes

---

If you read Black Spark, White Fire Poe is already aware of the PBS article he sites the liberal views posted there as being hypocritical of the way Brace analyzed Egyptian crania in his "Clines and Clusters" paper which supported the old Hamitic theories.

This was ofcourse during the shrill debates over Black Athena where Lefkowitz's cohorts used Brace's study to deny the Africanity of the Ancient Egyptians in their book "Black Athena:Revisted".

Ironically Lefkowitz had referenced Keita's "Studies and Comments" article in Not Out of Africa after attending a conference about Ancient Egypt's contribution to Greek civilization in which Keita got the chance to lecture on the biological aspects of the subject.

This review and Poe's book were written years before Brace's new studies, if you ask him now he would probably fel vindicated to see BRace change is tune, which if course caused no end of frustration for people like Evil Euro.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Mansa Musa

quote:

---

This review and Poe's book were written years before Brace's new studies, if you ask him now he would probably fel vindicated to see BRace change is tune, which if course caused no end of frustration for people like Evil Euro.

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quote:

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The Niger-Congo speakers (Congo, Dahomey, and Haya)
cluster closely with each other and a bit less closely with the
Nubian sample (both the recent and the Bronze Age Nubians)
and more remotely with the Naqada Bronze Age sample of
Egypt, the modern Somalis, and the Arabic-speaking Fellaheen
(farmers) of Israel. When those samples are separated and run
in a single analysis as in Fig. 1, there clearly is a tie between them
that is diluted the farther one gets from Sub-Saharan Africa. The
other obvious matter shown in Fig. 3 is the separate identity of
the northern Europeans. This matter is treated in the next
section.

---

quote:

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Kyle wrote:
I think they were white.

---

LMAO Why do you guys even bother with this fool!

He just states what he "believes" or "thinks" and nothing else. No sources or evidence.

He is obviously a troll but one of a very low class where all he could do is state opinions without even arguing why he has such views.

Let the retarded troll drool.
 

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Posted by multisphinx (Member # 3595) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kyle:
I think they were white.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Kyle wrote:
I think they were white.

---

LMAO Why do you guys even bother with this fool!

He just states what he "believes" or "thinks" and nothing else. No sources or evidence.

He is obviously a troll but one of a very low class where all he could do is state opinions without even arguing why he has such views.

Let the retarded troll drool.

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