It has been contended by some, here and elsewhere, that only 'Western' and 'Central' Africans are 'true' Negroids, and thuse 'pure' Africans.
I want to know if anyone thinks that this is so, please post and explain why you think this is the case. If you don't, I'd also like to hear that as well, of course.
Posted by Ceelgabo_11 (Member # 8942) on :
quote:Originally posted by sefardi3point2: It has been contended by some, here and elsewhere, that only 'Western' and 'Central' Africans are 'true' Negroids, and thuse 'pure' Africans.
I want to know if anyone thinks that this is so, please post and explain why you think this is the case. If you don't, I'd also like to hear that as well, of course.
All man came from Adam(pbuh) and Eve(pbuher), so there is no race or nation that is truelly pure in this planet.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^^Correct, but we are speaking about those populations who never left Africa and are indigenous to the continent.
Africans, as the source population for all of humanity have the greatest genetic diversity so it is no surprising that they also have the greatest phenotypic diversity.
quote:* What constitutes a 'pure' African versus an African of 'mixed' non African ancestry??
Answer: No one is truly ‘pure’ because all humans originated from Africa. Because of this fact, indigenous African populations possess the greatest genetic and phenotypic diversity in the world in a number of features such as skin complexion, cranial features, and hair form, but ALL are adapted to tropical to subtropical climate.
Skin color: Hum Biol. 2000 Oct;72(5):773-80. Related Articles, Links Human skin color diversity is highest in sub-Saharan African populations. Relethford JH. Department of Anthropology, State University of New York College at Oneonta, 13820, USA. Previous studies of genetic and craniometric traits have found higher levels of within-population diversity in sub-Saharan Africa compared to other geographic regions. This study examines regional differences in within-population diversity of human skin color. Published data on skin reflectance were collected for 98 male samples from eight geographic regions: sub-Saharan Africa, North Africa, Europe, West Asia, Southwest Asia, South Asia, Australasia, and the New World. Regional differences in local within-population diversity were examined using two measures of variability: the sample variance and the sample coefficient of variation. For both measures, the average level of within-population diversity is higher in sub-Saharan Africa than in other geographic regions. This difference persists even after adjusting for a correlation between within-population diversity and distance from the equator. Though affected by natural selection, skin color variation shows the same pattern of higher African diversity as found with other traits.
African skin complexions range from almost jet-black along the equator to yellowish-brown just outside the tropical latitudes which are the sub-tropical zones. With some North African Berber groups living just north of the tropic of Cancer and South African Khoisan groups living just south of the tropic of Capricorn.
Khoisan
Hair form: Hair form naturally varies among indigenous Africans so not all Africans have the ‘kinky’ type hair form found among the stereotypical African. Hair can range from wavy to the spiral tuft form found among the Khoisan peoples of southern Africa. The ‘kinky’ type seems to be in between these extremes. Even outside of Africa, those indigenous black populations who remained in the tropics also maintained this diversity inherited from their African ancestors.
Physical variations in any given trait tend to occur gradually rather than abruptly over geographic areas. And because physical traits are inherited independently of one another, knowing the range of one trait does not predict the presence of others. For example, skin color varies largely from light in the temperate areas in the north to dark in the tropical areas in the south; its intensity is not related to nose shape or hair texture. Dark skin may be associated with frizzy or kinky hair or curly or wavy or straight hair, all of which are found among different indigenous peoples in tropical regions. These facts render any attempt to establish lines of division among biological populations both arbitrary and subjective.
Cranial features: The human phenotypic trait that holds the greatest diversity is cranial morphology. Because of this fact, cranial features can at times be misleading if not taken into proper context. For example, for a long time features like long narrow faces and narrow noses have been associated with “caucasian” or “caucasoid” people even though such features are present in populations throughout the globe from Africa to the Americas. The same can be said about so-called “negroid” features such as broad faces and noses which are also not just confined to Africans but various peoples in Asia, the Pacific etc.
Which is why we have studies like this: J. Edwards, A. Leathers, et al. ...based on Howell’s sampling Fordisc 2.0 authors state that "there are no races, only populations," yet it is clear that Howell was intent on providing known groups that would be distributed among the continental "racial" groups. We tested the accuracy and effectiveness of Fordisc 2.0 using twelve cranial measurements from a homogeneous population from the X-Group period of Sudanese Nubia (350CE-550CE). When the Fordisc program classified the adult X-Group crania, only 51 (57.3%) of 89 individuals were classified within groups from Africa. Others were placed in such diverse groups as Polynesian (11.24%), European (7.86%), Japanese (4.49%), Native American (3.37%), Peruvian (3.36%), Australian (1.12), Tasmanian (1.12%), and Melanesian (1.12%). The implications of these findings suggest that classifying populations, whether by geography or by "race", is not morphologically or biologically accurate because of the wide variation even in homogeneous populations.
And...
Forensic Misclassification of Ancient Nubian Crania: Implications for Assumptions about Human Variation -April 2005, Current Anthropology:
It is well known that human biological variation is principally clinal (i.e., structured as gradients) and not racial (i.e., structured as a small number of fairly discrete groups). We have shown that for a temporally and geographically homogeneous East African population, the most widely used “racial” program fails to identify the skeletal material accurately. The assignment of skeletal racial origin is based principally upon stereotypical features found most frequently in the most geographically distant populations. While this is useful in some contexts (for example, sorting skeletal material of largely West African ancestry from skeletal material of largely Western European ancestry), it fails to identify populations that originate elsewhere and misrepresents fundamental patterns of human biological diversity.
These exact same mistakes were made in classifying Egyptian skulls and is also the reason you hear these old studies speak of a percentage of “Caucasoid” and even a percentage of “mongoloid” skulls!
Jean Hiernaux The People of Africa(Peoples of the World Series) The oldest remains of Homo sapiens sapiens found in East Africa were associated with an industry having similarities with the Capsian. It has been called Upper Kenyan Capsian, although its derivation from the North African Capsian is far from certain. At Gamble's Cave in Kenya, five human skeletons were associated with a late phase of the industry, Upper Kenya Capsian C, which contains pottery. A similar associationis presumed for a skeleton found at Olduvai, which resembles those from Gamble's Cave. The date of Upper Kenya Capsian C is not precisely known (an earlier phase from Prospect Farm on Eburru Mountain close to Gamble's Cave has been dated to about 8000 BC); but the presence of pottery indicates a rather later date, perhaps around 400 BC. The skeletons are of very tall people. They had long, narrow heads, and relatively long, narrow faces. The nose was of medium width; and prognathism, when present, was restricted to the alveolar, or tooth-bearing, region......all their features can be found in several living populations of East Africa, like the Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi, who are very dark skinned and differ greatly from Europeans in a number of body proportions............. From the foregoing, it is tempting to locate the area of differentiation of these people in the interior of East Africa. There is every reason to believe that they are ancestral to the living 'Elongated East Africans'. Neither of these populations, fossil and modern, should be considered to be closely related to the populations of Europe and western Asia.
claims that Caucasoid peoples once lived in eastern Africa have been shown to be wrong,- JO Vogel, Precolonial Africa.
So features like narrow faces and noses do NOT indicate foreign ancestry or ‘admixture’.
Fulani (West African)
Somali (East African)
Egyptian (North African)
Tutsi (Central African)
Ironically, another trait all of these people above share in common besides facial features is skeletal structure of their bodies. Their body structure has been called “super-negroid” indicating their extra-tropical adapted bodies compared to stereotypical blacks of West Africa who only have plain “negroid” builds. This is another indication that these people definitely have NO non-African ancestry!
Also, just because someone happens to have the same features as those you consider ‘true blacks (negroes)’ does not mean they are even African. As seen by this Andamanese person below.
So all this talk of such peoples being “not black” and “mixed” because of certain looks is downright silly.
Unfortunately, people like MichaelFromQuebec just can't understand, or rather refuse to understand.
What a pity.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^^ For someone who carries the name "bible_Expert", I find your reply to be odd as much as offensive.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Excellent research!
This map and flow is uncluttered and "concisely accurate" enough for beginner and "expert".
Female (mtDNA) lineages are named.
Male (NRY) lineages are labelled so that beginners aren't confused by an overwhelming array of SNP marker names while "experts" can easily associate the proper SNP to Duenes' numbering system.
It's no longer a matter of faith that we all have the same least recent common female and male ancestors.
Wow, the ancient Hebrew book of B*reshiyth allegorized a fact of science only ascertained within the last decade or so!
Posted by IIla (Member # 10772) on :
I have never seen a single person post anything remotely close to blacks being superior to other races. What's your problem?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^^Right. Who in here has ever made the claim that "everything in history was built by blacks," or that "blacks are superior"??!
Last time I checked Africanbible_Expert degrades blacks and calls them insulting names. Come to think of it, the way he talks about Ceelgabo as a Muslim as well as the way he uses pejorative slurs against blacks makes me question whether he is really "African". Perhaps he is a White Southa Afrikaaner! LOL
In fact, the way he just denigrated Ceelgabo's Scriptural beliefs in Adam and Eve makes me question whether he even reads the Bible, let alone is an "expert" on it!!
The way he called Ceelgabo a "freak" and said to "go back to where you come from" added together with everything else seems to point out that are so called African Bible Expert is really a racist white atheist nutcase!!
Not surprised if I'm right. Posted by Hotep2u (Member # 9820) on :
Greetings:
Ceelgabo wrote:
quote: Adam(pbuh) and Eve(pbuher) existed and man came from them...but unfortunately you descended from gorillas or Ape, and you still have that gorilla brain.
But anyway why is that when whites believe in white supermacy over other races, its viewed as rascist idealogy, but when these Afrocentric nuts believe everything in history was built by black and that black is superior to other races its somehow okey in here.
Somalia has a 81% illiteracy rate this means 8 out of 10 adults living in Somalia CAN NOT READ. You must be borderline literate.
Everything in history was not built be native Afrikans, Afrocentrics utilize factual evidence to substantiate their historical theories towards Afrikan achievement and the Afrikan presence in history.
IF YOU THINK AFRIKANS ARE LYING WHY DON’T YOU PRESENT YOUR EVIDENCE TO PROVE THEM WRONG?
No Afrocentric author has ever claimed that everything in history was built by black people. Afrikans have made numerous contributions towards the progression of Humanity and this is what Afrocentric authors make sure to highlight, your ignorance of Afrocentric literature shows you don’t read much Afrocentric books though I wonder if you read any books other than your book of brainwashing ______ fill in the blank. To sit on the side line hating on others is typical for Muslims correct? If not then why are you doing that here?
Parroting lies towards hard working Afrocentric scholars is a disgrace, because you know you cannot show any book from a Afrocentric author where that Afrocentric scholar states that black people built everything in history.
Cheikh Anta Diop is one of the most respected Afrocentric scholar this means he is one of the most widely read now let me see where you can show me where Cheikh Anta Diop makes a claim that black people built everything in history or black people are superior to other races.
Black Supremacist groups exist also just like white supremacist groups are these groups supported by mainstream communities? NO Superiority complexes amongst human beings has always existed so most people usually don’t pay these groups any time because HUMANITY is too intelligent to believe any one is better than another human being.
Now lets look at Muslims like yourself Ceelgabo making claims towards history that you know is just FALSE yet Muslims try to spread your religion using the hardwork of these same Afrocentric scholars that you claim are “nuts”. Muslim stamping the hard work of Afrocentric scholars is just DISGRACEFUL.
Muslim Stamping on the Ancient Kemetic Civilization Dr OSSAMA ALSAADAWI AND His Native Egyptian theory or PROTO-ISLAMIST views
Sudanese are suffering under atrocious conditions yet you Muslims spin the facts and try to make EVIL look fairseeming:
masha-allah these strong muslim sisters see through the b.s and know that what sudan claims to practice isn't real islam or real islamic state
quote: It really doesn't matter what an Afrocentrics think is right religion for Africa, because Africans whose religion is Islam will always be loyal to Islam and therefor always no matter what their conditions will be only bow down to the only one worthy of worshippe Allah(SWT) their creator. With African muslims, Africas history would not be as rich as its today...just look at the great Mali Kingdom, the Songhia Kingdom, The great city of Knowledge Timbouktu, Adal Kingdom, Harar the beautiful city were people came from as far away as China, India to learn the deen, Mogadishu the great Merchant City, Mombasa another great Merchant City...in Sudan you had the Funj Kingdom... in North Africa you had Cairo which had universities as early as 10th century...the beautiful market city of Marakesh were goods from all all the way India/China were sold...etc. if you take away Ancient Egypt, Ancient Northern Sudan, Aksum... Africans have no other significant achievement to speak of other than the achievement achieved by Africans who were Muslims. So on this case Islam is more African than any other Pagan religion worshipped in Africa today since it contributed to African history more than any
The evidence is overwhelming that you Ceelgabo are the brainwashed, mentally deprived parroting your own ignorance and showing your true hatred for Afrikan achievement.
Songhai existed before Islam was even thought of. Nok Culture were the first to invent Iron: Great Zimbabwe Civilization: Benin, Ife and Igbo-Ukwu, Nigeria Indigenous Glassworks of Bida, Nupeland, Nigeria, West Africa Metallurgical Artifacts of.Mapungubwe, South Africa Ancient Terracotta Figurines of Nok, Nigeria, West Africa AKAN METAL CASTING
Ceelgabo wrote:
quote:Hotep the fastest growning muslims in America are African Americans...and without the inspiration Islam..being black and proud would not be possible . The Nation islam although not muslim...took their ideas and their pride from Islam. Malik Shabbaz A.K.A Malcom X( may allah be pleased with him) was one the first black american leaders who made being black beautiful was muslim....Islam also made him change his rascist views toward whites...after he travelled to holy cities of Mecca and Medina..were he prayed shoulder to shoulder with every race this world has to offer.
What a Joke! Typical for a brainwash Muslims to make claims about Islam being the fastest growing religion in the Afrikan American community. LIAR
Multisphinx wrote after being shown facts towards Muhammad having a forced laborer:
quote:SO WHAT? Africans can not prosper without islam, because ISLAM is the truth and it is what will put us on the top . Islam is what will end the corruption in Africa, it will end tribalism, nationilism, racism, imperialism and so on goin on in Africa today. exp. MANSA MUSA AND THE KINGDOM OF MALI, was a prosperous muslim nation.
Islam has eradicated slavery and it did it slowly. Your bias research will always close ur heart from the truth. Site ur sites, i read what u wrote, its nonsense, where in the world do u get ur information. Prophet Muhammad pbuh is the perfect man to be followed. As an african i want to be like prophet and the Same for my brother and sisters in Africa. If you feel islam is not somthing for u, Ok then it not for u. Who are u to say Islam is not for Africans.
Forced Labor is still here in the Sudan, Islam will end Tribalism when it defines people by tribe Muslim stamping is a common tool for you Muslims isn’t it?
Afrikans are way too intelligent for your lies and tricks.
Hotep
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hotep2u:
Cheikh Anta Diop is one of the most respected Afrocentric scholar this means he is one of the most widely read
Where can I get my hands on a citation from Cheikh Anta Diop that he is an Afrocentrist?
Posted by *Topdog* (Member # 10328) on :
Well Clyde Winters does claim "black" civilizations in Japan, China, Meso-America, India, Greece, Sumeria and Iran that is very excesive and a bunch of pseudoscience based on typology and very, very scanty evidence. If only he and Rashidi would concntrate more on Africa than "Africoid" Greeks and Chinese.
Posted by Ceelgabo_11 (Member # 8942) on :
"The evidence is overwhelming that you Ceelgabo are the brainwashed, mentally deprived parroting your own ignorance and showing your true hatred for Afrikan achievement.
Songhai existed before Islam was even thought of. Nok Culture were the first to invent Iron: Great Zimbabwe Civilization: Benin, Ife and Igbo-Ukwu, Nigeria Indigenous Glassworks of Bida, Nupeland, Nigeria, West Africa Metallurgical Artifacts of.Mapungubwe, South Africa Ancient Terracotta Figurines of Nok, Nigeria, West Africa AKAN METAL CASTING"
Hotep, how is it that I'm brainwashed..
When I know who I'm...Somali
When I know were my people came from...Somaliland( Erigavo..the most beautiful place in Africa)
When I know who my tribe is.... Isaaq habaryonis Musa Ismail...
Know cam you tell me who you are...what tribe in Africa you belong to...where in Africa your people came from?
If Islam has contributed to Africa Nothing than would you please name me one or two great rulers in Africa known around the World?...and please don't name Pharoes or Nubians kings or Axumites.
"Somalia has a 81% illiteracy rate this means 8 out of 10 adults living in Somalia CAN NOT READ. You must be borderline literate."
Somali has gone through 16 years of War..Somaliland is building its instructure( schools, hospitals) without any assistance from no one. Somaliland has held election three times know and International observers have called it the most democratic elections in Africa. We are achieving things that countries that get aid and assistance in Africa are not achieving and hopeful once the country is recognized it will aim to be productive country that only uses its natural resources, but also educates the next generation so that they use their brains and smarts to be more innovative.
Hotep why is that you are worried about Somali illiteracy rate, Africa and not your people in America who are last in basically everything... Shouldn't you figure out how to help them instead of concentrating on envying African Muslims, educating Africans on their history...when Ironically you don't know your own history.
As a Success Story, Somaliland is Africa's Best-Kept Secret
Some major African players are taking a new look at Somaliland, that state on the strategic Horn of Africa that continues to pay the political and economic price for declaring independence twice (1960 and 1991).
Somaliland is labeled as a "breakaway state" by some analysts, while others describe its success as "the little country that could" (2).
In fact, Somaliland did nothing more than end a union it had entered into as a sovereign independent state, and has since pulled itself up by its own bootstraps.
Recently, Senegal, the European Union and Somaliland's neighbour Ethiopia have shown promising signs of wanting to end the impasse.
Ethiopia hosted Somaliland President Dahir Riyale Kahin on a state visit late last year and President Wade of Senegal hosted the Somaliland president recently.
A South African delegation, paid a fact-finding visit to Somaliland in January 2003 and declared it to be "a challenge rather than a problem for the African Union".(3)
"The country has shown the African renaissance spirit of self-reliance and resilience and has produced a sustainable government and constitution."
"They have got their act together while in the south (Somalia) the Transitional National Government (TNG) has been unable to do so."
"The international community must take notice of this. It cannot remain ostrich-like with its head in the sand", said Fatima Ismail, a human rights activist. (4)
The energy that the international community has put into the process that led to the installation of the southern TNG has not produced the desired result. (5)
The Kenyan government earlier appointed a new mediator to take over the Somalia peace talks in Eldoret, Kenya, which have been bogged down since they began in October 2002.
Bethwell Kiplagat, a senior Kenyan diplomat, will replace Elijah W. Mwangale, who was blamed by Somali warlords and Western diplomats alike for not properly managing the talks.
"Warlords continue to hold sway in Somalia and violence has resumed to a disturbing degree. The international community should be looking at the reality on the ground," said Ismail.
"If the international community plans to apply the principal of territorial unity and the fiction of a "sovereign Somalia" without understanding the history, facts on the ground and the genocide experienced, it would be planting the seeds for conflict more deadly than previously seen in Africa", said Professor Hussein Bulhan, head of the Somaliland Academy for Peace and Development and former head of the Anti-Apartheid Movement at Boston University.
"The expectation of the Somaliland people has rightly been raised by the success of their democratic and modest economic development. To frustrate this expectation and to force a union with the South, against the will of the people, is also to court a deadly conflict," he said.
Supporting peace in Somaliland where it only prevails, providing an incentive to it and extending it, is a worthwhile and realistic target.
Ethiopia, which makes increasing use of the Somaliland port of Berbera, has opened a diplomatic trade-liaison office in the capital of Hargeisa along with numerous EU and UN agencies.
The United States and other Western powers, mindful of the strategic importance of the Horn, continue to investigate establishing an interest office in Somaliland - something that would be impossible in the ungovernable Somalia.
Somaliland's major problem is that is too small to wield any muscle against the international organisations that ignore it.
But as the African focus moves increasingly off the Great Lakes and onto the Horn of Africa, this country of 3,5-million people will become an example of stability, good governance and economic discipline.
Geographically Somaliland, an area of 137 600 square kilometres forms the top of the figure seven made by the Horn of Africa. It is roughly the size of England and Wales. It was formerly British Somaliland while Somalia, the bottom of the 7 - was an Italian colony. Both colonies gained independence in 1960. Somaliland decided shortly after independence to form a union with the south. Before taking this step, however, it had already been recognised by 35 countries. The partnership was decidedly biased in favour of the south.
When southerner Siad Barre took power in a coup he brutally crushed northern opposition. This included flattening the Somaliland capital of Hargeisa, using a combination of artillery, South African mercenaries and bomber aircraft that took off from the airport on the outskirts of the city. On the outskirts of the capital, lie a number of UN acknowledged mass graves as testimony to southern brutality.
After Barre's fall in 1991, the Somalilanders wasted no time in ending the union with the south. After months of deliberations attended by many sectors of society, the grand conference of Burco as well as the second conference at Borama, a sort of South African Codesa, revoked the act of union and reinstated the independence that their territory enjoyed.
This action raised hackles in the then Organisation of African Unity, ever nervous about secession and determined, for better or worse, to maintain colonial boundaries.In fact, Somaliland's declaration of independence transgressed neither of these. The country was not breaking some pre-independence bond with the south. It was merely breaking a union that it had entered into as an independent state, for which there are numerous African precedents.
Somaliland has not violated colonial boundaries. It has occupied no more than that territory once occupied by the British and recognised as independent in 1960 by the international community.
Not only are Somaliland disenchanted with the uneven arrangement and traumatised by the civil war that killed more than 50 000 of their compatriots and 500 000 displaced, but they see no inducement to return to formal ties with what is to all intents and purposes an anarchic state.
The TNG of Somalia - that carries the seat at the United Nations, the Arab League and the African Union, cannot pretend to control anything more than a few blocks of Mogadishu. What caused this rush towards recognising a government with no territory nor administration, after having ignored arguably real and effective government in Somaliland?
The remainder of the country remains ungovernably in the hands of warlords.
Following the withdrawal of United Nations peacekeeping troops from Somalia in 1995 the international community, and particularly the United States that pulled out a year earlier, wanted nothing to do with anything bearing the label "Somali".
However security considerations post September 11 2001 have reinforced the strategic importance of the Horn that is now being patrolled by a German led European force.
The rebuilding of Hargeisa, which Barre reduced to rubble and turned into a minefield, has happened without assistance from the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund.
The economic development has been largely supported by Somalilanders in the diaspora. Proven oil reserves, coal and gemstone mining, livestock and fisheries production, remain untapped. (6)
More importantly Somaliland has built a strong democratic society that seamlessly passed the test last year with the death of President Mohamed Egal.
Within hours of confirmation of his death at 1 Military Hospital in Pretoria, vice president Kahin was sworn in as national leader. Both Egal and Kahin had been nominated by a council of elders in 1993 that re-elected Egal in 1997.
Kahin faced a full electorate in the country's first presidential elections on April 14 this year. International observers, including South Africans, declared the presidential elections as "peaceful, orderly and transparent". (7)
Somalilanders had their first taste of democracy in May 2001 when an internationally observed referendum confirmed their wish to remain apart from Somalia and endorsed a new constitution.
Highly successful municipal elections - also internationally observed and the first since 1969 - were held on December 15, 2002.
Somaliland is undergoing a full house of democratic procedures with parliamentary elections due to follow shortly on the presidential ballot.
Relations with northern neighbour Djibouti were chilled by that French dominated enclave hosting a conference that parachuted the Transitional National Government into power in Mogadishu.
By all credible accounts, the President of Djibouti, considerably interfered in this process and some conclude hijacked the process driven by his specific interests.
Observers have rightly questioned: where in history has a president enjoyed the right of nominating delegates to a parliament of a neighbouring country? In addition the election of a long-standing minister of interior in the scorned Barre regime as TNG president was received with shock in Somaliland.
This gut-wrenching shock is captured by a Somali refugee in Kenya who said "Mogadishu has fallen into the clutch of thugs, no better than hyenas, who have no idea what honour is, what trust is, what political responsibility means".
Asked whether he would go back to Mogadishu. He went on, "Would you ask a hyena to watch over your beef stew? Because you would be a fool if you trusted a hyena, wouldn't you?" (8)
By contrast, a recent UN 2002 review declared Somaliland as "the exception to the violence" and the prevailing anarchy in Somalia.(9)
Clearly, Somaliland's extraordinary indigenous conflict-resolution methods may provide an example to the southern Somalis. But, now the international community and notably South African agents of peace, cannot be delicately silent on supporting Somaliland's success story and its emerging democracy. Are we ready for this critical Nepad imperative?
Posted by Ceelgabo_11 (Member # 8942) on :
Originally posted by Hotep2u:
Cheikh Anta Diop is one of the most respected Afrocentric scholar this means he is one of the most widely read Cheikh Anta Diop is one of the most respected Afrocentric scholar this means he is one of the most widely read
Hotep what is Sheikh Anta Diop religion??
Posted by Ceelgabo_11 (Member # 8942) on :
quote:Originally posted by IIla: I have never seen a single person post anything remotely close to blacks being superior to other races. What's your problem?
When you attribute every great civilization known to man... Mesopatamia, China, India(Hindu Kush), Greece, etc...to black and only black..I think that is racial supremacy just like when White supremacist attribute the achievement of Pharoes, Mesopatamian, Aryans, Greece, Roma(yes Rome was not only white but mixed and more mediterranean than anything resembling West or East European)..to whites and whites only.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
^^I see. Now, name the individuals who advocated black "superiority", and how "black" has even been used in "racial" terms.
Posted by QUEEN OF THE THE UNIVERSE (Member # 9831) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hotep2u: [QB] Somalia has a 81% illiteracy rate this means 8 out of 10 adults living in Somalia CAN NOT READ. You must be borderline literate.
CIA world fact book
quote:]Statistics on Somalia's GDP, growth, per capita income, and inflation should be viewed skeptically.
hotep i don't know why you keep showing old statistics? there information is based on old statistics when the UN was still there in 93'
do you get a kick in trying to make an african country look bad by coming with outdated statistics when the country was still in a civil war it's like me using the hamith myth and then claiming it's not outdated
every day schools are being build there
somalia has three universities in the top 60 of african uni's one of them surpasses my countries universty and sudan's university
quote:Trade between Somalia and other countries has multiplied. Some people even estimate that the trade volume is so huge that it could be considered one of the biggest in the Horn of Africa, outdoing more politically stable countries such as Kenya and Ethiopia.
people have now more money to spent and schools and hospitals are being build
quote:A certain Canadian conglomerate, the Horn of Africa Free Zone Authority, will be constructing a free port on the peninsula Hafun. On a map of Somalia, Hafun is that body of land which doesn't look like its apart of the land mass that is Somalia but is extending outwards from the Puntland area. The group is currently putting the concrete and the basic foundation of this future city. It is 200 square miles, enough for major hotels, beaches, or other buildings to be created. Seeing that Somalia will become a likely in let for business with the African continent, and as long as Mogadishu remains a closed port, Hafun seems like an unbeatable investment. HAFZA will be publically traded on the Toronto Stock Exchange (TSX).
A new city is being build that will generate lots of jobs
quote:There are five competing airlines here; three phone companies, which have some of the cheapest rates in the world; at least two pasta factories; 45 private hospitals; 55 providers of electricity; 1,500 wholesalers for imported goods; and an infinite number of guys with donkeys who will deliver 55 gallons of clean water to your house for 25 cents.
What Somalia does not have is a government, and in many ways, that makes it the world's purest laboratory for capitalism. No one collects taxes. Business is booming. Libertarians of the world, unite!
quote:The Answer for Africa by Shafer Parker
According to Andrew Cockburn in the July issue of National Geographic magazine, Somalia is rising, phoenix-like, from the ashes of the 1993 war and becoming an economic powerhouse in eastern Africa precisely because anarchy has reigned ever since. Consider Cockburn’s on-the-scene assessment of what has happened since the war. "Like plants sprouting after a forest fire, Somalis have managed to survive and build on their own, in some respects with more success than developing nations on the receiving end of international aid and advice."
Significantly, the Somalis get it. They have learned through experience that less government is good, and that no government is better. Hear what telecommunications tycoon Abdirizak Ido told Mr. Cockburn: "We have been through some hard times, but the worst was when we had a government. Once there was no government, there was opportunity!"
Small entrepreneurs are doing well. Better yet, they also understand they are doing good. "In the northwestern city of Hargeysa, in the congested Sheikh Nur community for returned refugees, the Ismail family invested their meager resources in a water tap to supply the entire neighborhood. Abdi Ismail not only garners a weekly profit of $20 but also points out: ‘We are contributing to rebuilding Somaliland.’"
Needless to say, in a land where enterprise is truly free, the customer is king. Ten phone companies compete for business in the capital city of Mogadishu. Landline service is connected eight hours after it's ordered. And it only costs $10 a month. North Americans should be so well off. Cell phone connections are instantaneous. Local calls are free and international calls are only 60 cents to a dollar a minute. Amazingly, long distance is available even in remote villages, due to shortwave radio hookups. Somalis proudly point out that their phone service is far superior to anything found in neighbouring Kenya and Ethiopia.
All kinds of private enterprise is flourishing. Mogadishu now boasts a spaghetti factory, a plastics factory, a mineral-water plant, a bakery, and two fiercely competitive cable companies. And contra the protestors that have flocked to the G-8 summit to scream out their belief that economic fairness means the UN must be allowed to forcibly redistribute the world’s wealth, Somalia’s nouveau riche even give something back to the community. For instance, Abdirizak Osman, an entrepreneur in the desert town of Gaalkacyo who started with phones, then branched out to electrical generators, now provides street lights and free electricity to the local hospital.
Incidentally, the local Muslim fundamentalists can't get a foothold, not since 1993, anyway. People have better things to do. And clan loyalties, now allowed to flourish, prevent the fundamentalists from controlling any significant power-base. Despite rumors and innuendos flowing from the US State Department, Somalia is no friend of al Qaeda terrorists either. When the US government reported that Osama Ben Laden might be heading for the Horn of Africa, Somali novelist Nuruddin Farah suggested he should stay away if he did not want to be cashed in for the $25-million reward..
here are some pics of somalia just so you have an image of it
i got all this info from a somali forum
hotep you remind me of this racist fool who kept on saying oohh your country is only aids this aids that famine this famine that
untill i showed him pics of wel developed places of oromia and adiss ababa he was quiet
i don't appreciate it when people try to degrade hard working africans on a board visited by non africans
stop promoting the stereo type
do you know what
i think i'm going to open a thread and show all the well developed places of africa they never show on t.v Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
Ceelgabo_11 Member Member # 8942
Rate Member
The problems is these tribes are not claiming to be descended of Arab immigrants...but the descended of one man who one wife or multiple wifes...the children they had married among the locals, passing their fathers name as their tribe...these processes continues in some cases for 1000 years other less. Know how does a forefather 40+ generation effect the culture, the language of his descendeds?
I don't thing every Fulani or Hausa or Egyptians who claims to be descended of qoraish has been tested to determine whether their claim is valid...because if they were I think their claims would be proven to be true.
------------------------------------------------ kenndo- I do not agree with these comments above and it's been proven that most hausa ANYWAY do not have any form of outside racial admixture and i agree with ausar below
-------------------------------------------------- ausar quote: Most of the Tuaregs don't claim to come from Yemen. According to their own oral legends they come from a female named Tin Hanan from Southern Morocco. The problem with much of the oral legends of Africans that embrace Islam is that many try to connect themselves back to points in Islamic history--i.e. the Songhai claiming to desend from Yemanis and Hausa claming they come from Iraq. Islamicized Africans were known to have fabricated geneologies and legends.
The Sanhaja mentioned are not primarly comprised of Tuaregs but many different groups of Saharan Imazigh[berber] groups. Tuaregs were only one part of them.
Something about the Tuareg people have to keep in mind is that there are various different Kels. Kels are like clan divisions that Somalis have. Most claim desendant from Tin Hanan and some from Lemtuna. If you knew who Lemtuna was then you would know she was a legendary queen and matriarch.
The Tuareg[Kel Tamelsheq] unlike Arabs or Semitic speaking populations are matrilineal and even matriarchical. Most have no problem with having queens ruling over them and honor females through sucession.
Tuareg relate their origins as the following:
Tuareg origin myths relate the Tuareg to Lemtuna, the ancestress of the Berbers who lived around Ghadames in Tripolitania (Nicolaisen 1963: p. 405). Another myth relates the Tuareg to the legendary Queen Tin Hinan who came to Abalessa in the Ahaggar region from Tafilelt in Morocco (p. 69). According to Prasse, these legends suggest the Tuareg of southern Algeria came from Libya and Morocco, and the Kel Ayr and Kel Geres have Libyan origins. Tuareg from Mali claim to have come from Morocco or Mauritania (p. 71). Tuareg society has always been characterized by rivalry between groups, and in time different groups have enjoyed supremacy over others (p. 72). When the French arrived in the Hoggar they were met with great resistance and peace was reached in 1917. It lasted until independence in 1960. The French let the Tuareg continue their nomadic lifestyles; however, they saw to it that no concentration of power emerged (p. 80). Although the French did think of setting up an independent Tuareg state, the idea never materialized (p. 80)
THE african rulers OF early times that most folks do not know much about around the world is because of the MODERN schools and has nothing to do with islam.that is why people need to pick up a book AND NOT WAIT to learn about it from their parents or teachers.Alot of folks do not know about the great mayan,inca,southeast asian rulers anyway and other civilizations.Those great africans civilizations like benin,the akan,dahomey were more isolated civilizations compared to some other early african civilizations but they did have contact with kingdoms that were islamic african kingdoms,even non islamic ones and other kindgoms that were not african.
Europeans wrote how great the kingdoms of kongo,angola, the luba and many other AFRICAN kingdoms were and other kingdoms not mention here were and some not islamic and some were but they were more isolated.
Europeans know more about these kingdoms that folks in america.another thing here,medieval christian nubia played a major part and was the most advanced region in the world in medieval times and very early modern times.read what the arabs have to say about this region.it blew thier minds.
Islam played it's part,early modern african faiths played thier parts,and so did christianty past and present and a combination of all these faiths,but the most important thing not talk about here was not just faith,faith was not the real driving motive here,it was the quest for learning new things(knowledge)and they made new achievments,just like they are doing today. but it is known that without early african faiths,judism,islam and christian faiths would not exist.let's not forget kush saved the hebrews and their faith,and if this was not done the christian and islamic faiths would not existed.
quote:Originally posted by IIla: I have never seen a single person post anything remotely close to blacks being superior to other races. What's your problem?
When you attribute every great civilization known to man... Mesopatamia, China, India(Hindu Kush), Greece, etc...to black and only black..I think that is racial supremacy just like when White supremacist attribute the achievement of Pharoes, Mesopatamian, Aryans, Greece, Roma(yes Rome was not only white but mixed and more mediterranean than anything resembling West or East European)..to whites and whites only.
Then you do not understand the meaning of White Supremacy or its history or its connection to Eurocentricity, and you therefore use terminolgy that you do not fully comprehend. So I will help you by providing a brief history for you.
White supremacy is a racist ideology which holds that the white race is superior to other races. White supremacy is most often thought of in connection with anti-black racism and anti-Semitism, though it has also been used to justify discrimination against Native Americans, Aborigines, Asians, Africans, Arabs, Italians, Hispanics and others. White supremacists usually see Europeans, mainly those of "white" skin, as the superior race. Some narrow this to the so-called Nordic Aryans a variously-defined term that excludes Jews, Slavs, and some Southern Europeans.
For example, politically, socially and economically, white supremacy was by and large the law of the land in the United States before and for decades after Reconstruction; the same is true of apartheid-era South Africa, and of parts of Europe at various periods of time, most notably under the Third Reich. The extent and nature of white supremacy's continuing influence in Western culture is a subject of ongoing debate. White supremacy is sometimes used in a more limited sense to indicate a philosophical belief that whites are not only superior to others, but should rule over them. White separatist and white nationalist groups often use this more limited definition in order to distinguish themselves from white supremacists, though these views are often largely overlapping.
White supremacy, as with supremacism in general, is rooted in ethnocentrism and a desire for hegemony. It contains varying degrees of racism and xenophobia. Associations of white supremacy with ethnic cleansing and racial separation are common, but not necessarily intrinsic.
Stating that blacks made contributions to civilizations throughout the world is in no way saying that blacks are superior to other races and cultures, and no one on this board has ever stated that blacks were responsible for the creation of every great civilization either.
Words are very powerful. You should never make accusations like this unless you are fully prepared to back them up!
Posted by Horemheb (Member # 3361) on :
Obviously in terms of state buildings Euro Americans are superior to others. That said, there is opportunity for all.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Obviously in terms of state buildings Euro Americans are superior to others. That said, there is opportunity for all.
wrong,that's non-sense.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Excuse me, but what the hell has happened to this thread?!!
We have gone waaay off topic here!! The topic of this thread is about 'pure' indigenous African populations, but unfortunately some of you (Hotep and Ceel) keep bringing up the 'Africans and Islam' argument which was already discussed in 2 threads which were both closed by the moderator due to instability!!
And just for the record, Africans have achieved alot before AND after the introduction of Islam or any foreign religions. Africans have been building civilizations and have contributed much to world history before 'Arabs' even existed! And Africans still achieved much after Islam was introduced! So I don't see what the whole argument is to begin with! The problems in Africa are NOT due to Islam so much as corruption and poverty! CASE CLOSED.
Now enough on Islam vs. Africa or African infrastructures (Hore) and do not pollute this thread any further!! Posted by QUEEN OF THE THE UNIVERSE (Member # 9831) on :
i told you this forum has turned into the twilight zone lol
i feel sad for ausar
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
quote:Originally posted by African_BibleExpert: ***Wow, the ancient Hebrew book of B*reshiyth allegorized a fact of science only ascertained within the last decade or so! ***
How so?!?!? The plaugarized story of Adam and eve comes from Atum and Tefnut in Egypt of self creation and dude HEBREWS WERE NOT BLACK!!!! enough of that rhetoric
some hebrews were black.you could see than even in some films from america,even they got it right to some extent.
Posted by Hotep2u (Member # 9820) on :
Greetings:
Supercar Wrote:
quote: Where can I get my hands on a citation from Cheikh Anta Diop that he is an Afrocentrist?
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
Afrocentric
SYLLABICATION: Af·ro·cen·tric PRONUNCIATION: fr-sntrk ADJECTIVE: Centered or focused on Africa or African peoples, especially in relation to historical or cultural influence : “a string of small black-owned art galleries in Los Angeles's Afrocentric cultural district” (Kristal Brent Zook, NYT Magazine November 12 1995). OTHER FORMS: Afro·centrism —NOUN Afro·centrist —ADJECTIVE & NOUN
Looking at the Cheikh Anta Diops works and based off the definiton of Afrocentric.
List of notable Afrocentric historians Dr. Molefi Kete Asante, professor, author: Afrocentricity: The theory of Social Change; The Afrocentric Idea; The Egyptian Philosophers: Ancient African Voices from Imhotep to Akhenaten Dr. Ishakamusa Barashango, college professor and lecturer; founder, Temple of the Black Messiah, School of History and Religion; co-founder and creative director, Fourth Dynasty Publishing Company, Silver Spring, Maryland Dr. Jacob Carruthers, Egyptologist; founding director of the Association for the Study of Classical African Civilization; founder and director of the Kemetic Institute, Chicago Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop[4],[5], author: The African Origin of Civilization: Myth or Reality; Civilization or Barbarism: An Authentic Anthropology; Precolonial Black Africa; The Cultural Unity of Black Africa: The Domains of Patriarchy and of Matriarchy in Classical Antiquity; The Peopling of Ancient Egypt & the Deciphering of the Meroitic Script Dr. H.B. ("Barry") Fell, Harvard professor, linguist, author: Saga America, 1980 [6] Drusilla Dunjee Houston, lecturer, syndicated columnist, author: Wonderful Ethiopians of the Ancient Cushite Empire, 1926. Dr. Yosef Ben-Jochannan, author: African Origins of Major "Western Religions"; Black Man of the Nile and His Family; Africa: Mother of Western Civilization; New Dimensions in African History; The Myth of Exodus and Genesis and the Exclusion of Their African Origins; Africa: Mother of Western Civilization; Abu Simbel to Ghizeh: A Guide Book and Manual Dr. Runoko Rashidi[7], author: Introduction to African Civilizations; The global African community: The African presence in Asia, Australia, and the South Pacific J.A. Rogers, author: Sex and Race: Negro-Caucasian Mixing in All Ages and All Lands : The Old World; Nature Knows No Color Line; Sex and Race: A History of White, Negro, and Indian Miscegenation in the Two Americas : The New World; 100 Amazing Facts About the Negro With Complete Proof: A Short Cut to the World History of the Negro Dr. Ivan van Sertima, author: They Came before Columbus: The African Presence in Ancient America, African Presence in Early Europe; Blacks in Science Ancient and Modern; African Presence in Early Asia; African Presence in Early America; Early America Revisited; Egypt Revisited: Journal of African Civilizations; Nile Valley Civilizations; Egypt: Child of Africa (Journal of African Civilizations, V. 12); The Golden Age of the Moor (Journal of African Civilizations, Vol. 11, Fall 1991); Great Black Leaders: Ancient and Modern; Great African Thinkers: Cheikh Anta Diop[8] Dr. Chancellor Williams, author: The Destruction of Black Civilization: Great Issues of a Race from 4500 B.C. to 2000 A.D. Dr. Théophile Obenga, author: Ancient Egypt and Black Africa : a student's handbook for the study of Ancient Egypt in philosophy, linguistics, and gender relations Dr. Asa Hilliard, III, author: SBA: The Reawakening of the African Mind; The Teachings of Ptahhotep
If you want to blame me for making a claim towards Cheikh Anta Diop being a Afrocentric that I cannot show from his own writing then I stand guilty charged.
Ceelgabo wrote:
quote: Hotep what is Sheikh Anta Diop religion??
I don't know based off the writings of Cheikh Anta Diop I cannot find one reference to him advocating any religion that he practiced. I know he was a scholar that researched AFRIKAN history and AFRIKAN peoples contribution to Humanity, so I can NOT tell you what religion he practiced because it wasn't that important to him seeing he did NOT advocate any based off my knowledge of his writing.
Hotep
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hotep2u: Greetings:
Supercar Wrote:
quote: Where can I get my hands on a citation from Cheikh Anta Diop that he is an Afrocentrist?
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
Afrocentric
SYLLABICATION: Af·ro·cen·tric PRONUNCIATION: fr-sntrk ADJECTIVE: Centered or focused on Africa or African peoples, especially in relation to historical or cultural influence : “a string of small black-owned art galleries in Los Angeles's Afrocentric cultural district” (Kristal Brent Zook, NYT Magazine November 12 1995). OTHER FORMS: Afro·centrism —NOUN Afro·centrist —ADJECTIVE & NOUN
Looking at the Cheikh Anta Diops works and based off the definiton of Afrocentric.
Immaterial; read again what I specifically asked for... a citation from Diop himself, acknowledging to be what you claim him to be. Going off by the American heritage, it can easily be argued that anyone who studies or focuses on African history or African issues, including Egypt, is Afrocentric.
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
For someone who carries the name "bible_Expert", I find your reply to be odd as much as offensive.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Excuse me, but what the hell has happened to this thread?!!