This is topic TAMAZIGHT - a branch of the Afrisan family of African languages in forum Egyptology at EgyptSearch Forums.


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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
In a map accompanying his article Western African Languages in Historical
Perspective, Kay Williamson sees proto-Tamazight (the first "Berber" language)

1. originating in the Gharb Darfur region of Sudan 8kya
2. spreading from there to
_a. the Dongola Reach/3rd cataract Tmhhw and to
_b. the Air-Hoggar region
3. before proto-North Tamazight developed
4. and went to
_a. the Maghreb and then eastward to
__* Rebu/Libou and
5. proto-Zenaga left Air/Adrar des Ifores for
_a. the Tagant (southern Mauritania).


================================
SIDEBAR

NOTE: this isn't the map from the article but
Taureg corresponds to Air-Hoggar Air/Adrar regions,
Atlas/Zenati/Nefusi corresponds to the Maghreb,
Siwi roughly corresponds to Rebu/Libou, and
Zenaga corresponds to the Tagant.

=================================


In light of this and the current discussions on Imazighen and going back
to the "Berber" vs Black dichotomy, it seems that attributing Berber only
to the people of the northern littoral at the expense of northern Saharans,
and others between the Sahara and the Atlas, is an historical falsehood
until we enter times of "post-Roman Africa" and maybe even after the
Islamic invasions.

Spread of language family speakers is based on archaeology (the industrial
tool kits, food "production," etc.), the language family proto-lexicon
(vocabulary that appears widely across divergent branches of the family
indicating great age of first use), and regional climate over the millenia.

From this type of material is derived what seems to be dates and regions of
habitation of proto-Tamazight, proto-NiloSaharan, and proto-MandeCongo
speakers in Western Africa.

Neolithic and early historic "Berber" finds, 250 or more miles south of the
Mediterranean, could well have been left by black or coloured peoples who
spoke "Berber" before it reached the Maghreb. In other words the
Leukaethiopes
Melanogaetuli
Nigritae
Western Ethiopians (Hesperii)
Pharusii
Icthyophagi Aethiopes
etc.,
and their modern descendents still there in the same vast "Saharan" area
are just as much "Berber" as anybody else, and if Williamson (based on Behrens)
is right, even more so as they are remnants of the proto-North Tamazight speakers
or so at least the Haritin donating to genetic tests seem to infer.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
takruri

quote:

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Spread of language family speakers is based on archaeology (the industrial
tool kits, food "production," etc.), the language family proto-lexicon
(vocabulary that appears widely across divergent branches of the family
indicating great age of first use), and regional climate over the millenia.

From this type of material is derived what seems to be dates and regions of
habitation of proto-Tamazight, proto-NiloSaharan, and proto-MandeCongo
speakers in Western Africa.

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quote:

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What tool kit is associated with the Berbers?

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quote:

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In addition, Afroasiatic is a family of much greater time depth than even most of its students realize; its first divergences trace back probably at least 15,000 years ago, not just 8,000 or 9,000 as many believe.

This last point imparts a final general lesson for historical linguists: the historical comparative method, in fact, works very well farther back in time than scholars have generally allowed, provided the family in question contains a sufficiently large number of languages from which evidence can still be obtained." - Professor Christopher Ehret - The
Lessons of Deep-Time Historical-Comparative
Reconstruction in Afroasiatic"

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quote:

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This is conjecture.

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quote:

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As Ehret notes in the quote no other linguist supports the idea you can identify languages spoken 15000 years ago

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quote:

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except the Nostratic linguists whoes idea have failed to be supported.

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quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:

quote:

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As Ehret notes in the quote no other linguist supports the idea you can identify languages spoken 15000 years ago

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That's not what he said.

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I found it interesting as well, how Mr. Winters interpreted Ehret's statment pertaining to Afrasan "divergences" going back to "at least" 15,000 years ago. LOL.
 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
The Berbers are Africans the belong to Africa the language is East African Rasol has shown this and what he has posted stands unrefuted. Berbers are African not european
I think Clyde should read this:

"Africa contains populations whose members have a range of external phenotypes. This variation has usually been described in terms of "race" (Caucasoids, Pygmoids, Congoids, Khosianoids). But Y-Chromosome clade defined by the PN2 transition (PN2/M35 and PN2/M2) shatters the boundaries of phenotypically defined races and true breeding populations across great geographical expanse. African peoples with a rang of skin colors, hair forms and physiognomies have substantial percentages of males whose Y Chromsomes form closely related clades with each other, but not with others who are phenotypically similar."
http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/ng/journal/v36/n11s/full/ng1455.html&filetype=pdf

I will repeat Berbers are African


Peace
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^^So true. Whereas Iranians and Indians, regardless of how black they look do NOT share any lineages from the PN2 clade, despite what some may say.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Dr. Winters

First I'd appreciate the respect of capitalizing my ethnic geonomen,
thank you. Second please only reply here to the language aspect and
relating disciplines supporting this thread's subject header. I
don't want the topic distracted and obfuscated by tangential matter.
I will broach a new topic to cover the remainder of the queries below.

Now for your reply:

The real question is which if any modern linguists have you actually
studied in regard to Tamazight/Berber language?

A corollary to that would be what current archeaologists, anthropologists
(physical, cultural, genetic, etc.) historians, etc., specializing in North
Africa, the Sahara/Sahel, and Amazigh people have you read?

It seems that outside of Diop, whose opinions on Berbers are colored by
the ethnopolitical friction between Senegal and Mauritania, Berber studies
are outside the fields of knowledge you specialize in.

A detailed answer to your questions is in
Roger Blench
Types of language spread and their archaeological correlates: the example of Berber
Origini, XXIII: 169-190 (2001)


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Who were the people the HAW NBW associated with upon arrival in
Cyrenaica and Sirte? How many centuries were the two in association
before hatching the invasions of KM.t? Did Kmtyw artists depict any of
various people of the invading coalition and under what single name
or various names?

Why did the Vandals come to the five provinces of Roman ruled North
Africa? What relationships did they have with the people they found
already there? How long did they rule the North African littoral and
how far inland was their influence (if any influence they had)?

What went on in North Africa between the arrival of the Sea People
and the Vandals? Were any institutions formed by or any cultural
contributions coming from the indigenees of North Africa? What,
if any, polities did they constitute?

Why do any people with long cultural continuities (your Mande eg.) use the
Julian calendar and how does such use negate the fact of their cultural
continuity?

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Given your knowledge of the Tmazight and awareness of the evidence supporting their origin in Africa, instead of coming to Africa first as part of the Peoples of the Sea Invasion and later supplemented by the Vamdals, please answer the following questions:

What tool kit is associated with the Berbers?

What archaeological assemblages are associated with these Proto-Tamazight?

What dates do archaeologists give the cultural items you claim are associated with these Proto-Tamazight?

What items in the Proto-lexicon of Tamazight is of Berber origin and not an Egyptian, Germanic, Latin or Semitic loan word into Berber?

Also if the Tamazight have such a long cultural history why do they use a Latin calendar to record their chronology?

Please respond
[/b]


.

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quote:

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Spread of language family speakers is based on archaeology (the industrial
tool kits, food "production," etc.), the language family proto-lexicon
(vocabulary that appears widely across divergent branches of the family
indicating great age of first use), and regional climate over the millenia.

From this type of material is derived what seems to be dates and regions of
habitation of proto-Tamazight, proto-NiloSaharan, and proto-MandeCongo
speakers in Western Africa.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by alTakruri:
A detailed answer to your questions is in
Roger Blench
Types of language spread and their archaeological correlates: the example of Berber
Origini, XXIII: 169-190 (2001)

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quote:

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You've already summarily dismissed Rasol's presentation of it as mere
speculation. Why should I extend further effort to elicit the same reflex,
especially when you've never presented anything I asked from you these
past weeks?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
This is conjecture.

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quote:

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IMAZIGHEN: indigenees or invaders TAMAZGHA: cultural history to 1000 CE
whose line of questioning in answer to your qestions show you know
little of North African ethnology and cultural history. Your idea that
Vandals ruled NA for 400 years is preposterous. Why do you intentionally
mislead the unwitting who trust in you with such disinformation? And
what's more, doing your homework for you, the Vandals didn't enter
the coast of NA until 428 CE and you're proposing that Berber grammar
is Germanic. Did they communicated by handsigns for the 2000 years
they are known in history before the Vandals (who never so much as set
foot beyond the coast from Tangier to Tripoli)?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

altakruri

quote:

---

IMAZIGHEN: indigenees or invaders TAMAZGHA: cultural history to 1000 CE
whose line of questioning in answer to your qestions show you know
little of North African ethnology and cultural history. Your idea that
Vandals ruled NA for 400 years is preposterous. Why do you intentionally
mislead the unwitting who trust in you with such disinformation? And
what's more, doing your homework for you, the Vandals didn't enter
the coast of NA until 428 CE and you're proposing that Berber grammar
is Germanic. Did they communicated by handsigns for the 2000 years
they are known in history before the Vandals (who never so much as set
foot beyond the coast from Tangier to Tripoli)?

---

I am citing Diop when I propose the 400 year rule of North Africa by the Berbers. Diop has proven that the Berbers probably spoke a language taken to Africa by the Vandals.

The original North African people probably spoke a semitic language similar to Punic. Some of these earlier North Africans mixed with the Vandals and thus we have the Berber (not including Taureg speakers) speaking population in North Africa.Since Blacks have long lived in North Africa according to Keita, it is only natural that the Berbers would have high frequency tropical African gene markers, than Southern Europeans, since it is obvious that over the past 1500 years there has been considerable mixing between Black Africans and the Berbers.

I believe you are making a mistake when you suggest that the Berbers are the original inhabitants of North Africa when we know that the original North Africans spoke Punic, while the Garamante/Garamande and other people in the Fezzan spoke a Mande language.

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quote:

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You agree that less than 100,000 (men women and children included)
5th century CE Vandals, who disappeared due to their refusal to
socially mingle with the locals, provided the grammatical base for a
language already in existance for at least some 2000 years by then?

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quote:

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Djehuti posted:

quote:

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Clyde Winters:

The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.

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Apparently for all his 'knowledge' on linguistics, Winters must have forgotten that feminine nouns and names in Afrasian languages also end in a vowel followed by a 't'!!

For example, Egyptian female names like Aset (Isis), Maat, Nofret, Merit etc.

Semitic female names like Benet --meaning daughter, Anat, Astoret etc.

Even Cushitic names like the common Somali name 'Asha' was most likely derived from Ashait.

Ironically, this coincidental similarity to German was one of the "evidences" used by past Eurocentric scholars in their attempt to place the origins of Afroasiatic outside of Africa, and is no doubt still being used by Nostraticists!!

LMFO Apparently Winters has bought their nonsense as well!

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So much for "Germanic" linguistic influence.
 

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Posted by kifaru (Member # 4698) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The Berbers, given the evidence can not be descendants of the original North African Blacks . They are probably derived from the Sea Peoples and Vandals, who mixed with the original Blacks who formerly lived in North Africa.

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quote:

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I've made a thread for discussing ethnocultural historic topics on
Imazighen and Tamazgha. If you will, please redirect your post to

IMAZIGHEN: indigenees or invaders TAMAZGHA: cultural history to 1000 CE (clickable link)

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quote:

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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The Berbers, given the evidence can not be descendants of the original North African Blacks . They are probably derived from the Sea Peoples and Vandals, who mixed with the original Blacks who formerly lived in North Africa.

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quote:

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Kifaru
That last statement is a little contradictory, Clyde.

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It is clear that some of the Sea People were of European background. The five Sea Peoples are named: the Shardana, Teresh, Lukka, Shekelesh and Ekwesh, and are collectively referred to as "northerners coming from all lands".





If some of the Northerners were Europeans and the Vandals were Europeans would this not explain the introduction of Euopeans into North Africa? Europeans who would later mate with the Black North Africans to become a foundation of the Berber speaking people.


.
 

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Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 

quote:

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The Berbers, given the evidence can not be descendants of the original North African Blacks . They are probably derived from the Sea Peoples and Vandals, who mixed with the original Blacks who formerly lived in North Africa.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Why don't you start it off by answering the questions I have proposed.


.

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quote:

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Originally posted by kifaru:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The Berbers, given the evidence can not be descendants of the original North African Blacks . They are probably derived from the Sea Peoples and Vandals, who mixed with the original Blacks who formerly lived in North Africa.

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That last statement is a little contradictory, Clyde.

alTakruri,
I am not sure about the exact numbers of Vandals, and Goths that crossed over but it is reasonable that if they successfully imposed their hegemony over these peoples already inhabiting the area that they left traces of their language however little that maybe. Secondly if it was a military conquest you can gaurantee that they left behind some DNA because military conquests always, always involve rape, and sexual subservience of the women of the conquered population.

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quote:

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This statement is semantically circuitous - how can you define African Berbers as - mixed with - Africans but not -descendant from - Africans?

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quote:

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That's been done already and you summarily dismiss the answers
as conjecture and speculation and in the meantime fail to
produce a thorough sytematic demonstration of Berber as Germainic
using sound linguistic methodology.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


If some of the Northerners were Europeans and the Vandals were Europeans would this not explain the introduction of Euopeans into North Africa? Europeans who would later mate with the Black North Africans to become a foundation of the Berber speaking people.

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quote:

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Let us see these "European" markers, that are supposed to be indicative of Europeans who preceded the aborginal African in the north African regions.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Supercar

quote:

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Let us see these "European" markers, that are supposed to be indicative of Europeans who preceded the aborginal African in the north African regions.

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I never said the Europeans lived in Africa before the Blacks. I said that these Europeans entered North Africa with the Sea Peoples, and the Vandals. These Europeans became the two root groups for the BerBer speaking people.

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quote:

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Easy Berbers are descendent from Europeans who mixed with Black North Africans after they invaded North Africa.

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quote:

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Doesn't provide linguistic evidence.

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The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years.

Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st . Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a , like neuter nouns in Latin. Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).

The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and grammar indicate that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.


.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
LOL

And again...

quote:

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Apparently for all his 'knowledge' on linguistics, Winters must have forgotten that feminine nouns and names in Afrasian languages also end in a vowel followed by a 't'!!

For example, Egyptian female names like Aset (Isis), Maat, Nofret, Merit etc.

Semitic female names like Benet --meaning daughter, Anat, Astoret etc.

Even Cushitic names like the common Somali name 'Asha' was most likely derived from Ashait.

Ironically, this coincidental similarity to German was one of the "evidences" used by past Eurocentric scholars in their attempt to place the origins of Afroasiatic outside of Africa, and is no doubt still being used by Nostraticists!!

LMFO Apparently Winters has bought their nonsense as well!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that:

“... German feminine nouns end in t and st .

Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse?

... the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German,"
(p.69).


The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and grammar indicate that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.

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quote:

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Clyde Winters:

The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and grammar indicate that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.

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quote:

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Originally posted by alTakruri:
[QB] Kifaru

Traces of language is a far far cry from being a language's grammatical base.

....(no Goths involved) transient virtually archaeological traceless interlude in only the coastal region of North Africa.

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quote:

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Originally posted by alTakruri:


Traces of language is a far far cry from being a language's grammatical base.

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quote:

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"And he is a Quti, a Goth," replies Abdoul Kader, referring to the Christians who drove the Muslims out of the Iberian peninsula in 1492.

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quote:

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Originally posted by kifaru:

quote:

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Originally posted by alTakruri:
[QB]
....(no Goths involved)

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As far as the Goths we can agree to disagree however I offer this:

www.sum.uio.no/research/mali/timbuktu/privates/kati/manuscripts.html - 5k

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quote:

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3) Punic (Phoenician/Canaanitic/Hebrew) wasn't spoken in NA until
~900 BCE and then only in the Syro-Lebanese colonies.

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quote:

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Clyde Winters:

If the Berber speakers were the original Libyco-Berbers we would be able to read the most ancient inscriptions in Berber languages and Taureg, but this is not so.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Granted I should not use the term Libyco-Berber for the ancient writing of North Africa. I only use it so that people will know what inscriptions I am talking about, since this is the established name for this writing.

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quote:

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and why is that?
Also, I wonder how Euro-scholars from early reactionary Euro-scholars, who were bent on separating portions of North Africa from inner Africa, to contemporary ones, could have all missed this "obvious" link between "Berber" Languages and the Vandals or European "Berber" speakers.

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quote:

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As for any early [pre-genetics] "misconception" about coastal Berbers not being "indigenous" Africans, on the account of their external physical appearances, genetics and linguistics have torn it apart.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Supercar

quote:

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As for any early [pre-genetics] "misconception" about coastal Berbers not being "indigenous" Africans, on the account of their external physical appearances, genetics and linguistics have torn it apart.

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Linguistic has not torn this apart both Diop and Obenga point out that it is not related to Egyptian.

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quote:

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The fact that you haven't been able to produce any material in support of your so-called European "Berber" language hypothesis...is in itself testament to linguistics agreeing with genetics, in the "aboriginality" of both "Berber" languages and the folks who speak it!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin."

Secondly I showed how Europeans have used the Berbers to make it appear that the Egyptians were white.

Geneticists are like pimps, they try to make sure that what they write conforms to the status quo. Geneticists will make the Berbers and anybody else related to whom ever the authorities in the Academie claim this or that group is related too.

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quote:

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Dr. Winters needs help. How can he say that the Berbers are not African. How much proof does he need until he sees that the Berbers are not European they are Africans. I don't think that Winters wants to really learn the truth about Berbers. What proof does winter have that Berbers are not African? I will tell you he has nothing.

Peace

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quote:

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I will give you points for speaking but you still have not provided proof that Berbers are European. Berbers are E3b2 clade africans they belong to the Pn2 clade, this makes them African what proof do you have that they are European.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


I guess you are right,like the Afrikaaners of South Africa and Namibia, the Berbers are African, since they have lived on the African Continent for hundreds of years and now call this continent their home. They are just not Black African.

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quote:

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Clyde Winters:

I am an American because I grew up in America, and my ancestors died building this country for the 'Massa'. That doesn't change the fact that I am of Black African descent. The language many of us speak: Black Vanacular English or Ebonics, has a Niger-Congo grammar, but the words I clothe this grammar are from the English language.

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quote:

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Clyde Winters:

Berbers are Africans of European origin as proven by Diop.

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quote:

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Clyde Winters:

The grammar of their language and vocabulary point to a European genesis for the speakers of this language.

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quote:

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Clyde Winters:

You may hate Diop and what he stands for but no one has yet to falsify his evidence that the Egyptians were Black and the Berber were "Northerners" who came from Europe.

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quote:

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Clyde Winters:

The 1) grammar of the Berber language,2) general unintelligibility between Berber dialects and 3) mixed vocabulary of the Berber language betray their European origin just like the Afrikaaner language of the Boers whos settled South Africa and Namibia.

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quote:

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Clyde Winters:

Wow! Its interesting that now we have Germanic speaking people at both extremes of Africa: North Africa Berber and South Africa Afrikaans. Ain't History a Bitch.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Ain't History a Bitch.


Aluta continua


.

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quote:

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Diop may be forgiven for his claims per "pre-genetics" era; but contemporary students of history have no excuse whatsoever. And yes, the claim that Berbers are "Northerners" from Europe is discredited by genetics AND linguistics, for starters!


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clyde Winters:

The 1) grammar of the Berber language,2) general unintelligibility between Berber dialects and 3) mixed vocabulary of the Berber language betray their European origin just like the Afrikaaner language of the Boers whos settled South Africa and Namibia.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First, "Berber" languages trace back to an era that predates the said "European" invasions.

Second, you haven't demonstrated the so-called "intelligibility" of "Berbers" with "Germanic" or any other "European" language.

Third, you haven't demonstrated that Berber languages are CREOLES, which every decent linguist recognizes it isn't.

Forth, you haven't demonstrated to us the "European"/"Germanic" paternal markers of the coastal west African Berbers, which I am sure would be quite easy to demonstrate in the case of the Afrikaans, both paternally and maternally!


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clyde Winters:

Wow! Its interesting that now we have Germanic speaking people at both extremes of Africa: North Africa Berber and South Africa Afrikaans. Ain't History a Bitch.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What ain't a bitch, if you'll excuse my French, is your circus-like attitude towards scholarship, as demonstrated by your total contempt for producing material that has been requested of you for DAYS now.

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quote:

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I guess it is because it definitely says nothing about any 400
year Vandal rule of North Africa. To keep repeating that lie is
intellectually bankrupt and morally inexcusable.

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quote:

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Originally posted by alTakruri:
[QB] I guess it is because it definitely says nothing about any 400
year Vandal rule of North Africa. To keep repeating that lie is
intellectually bankrupt and morally inexcusable.

And yes we continue the struggle against all things detrimental
to Africa and Afrikans especially the damning heresy of fairy
tale history that besmirches and turns people away from our
verifiable history judging it all as just an exercise in building self
esteem by a people with no history and no human accomplishments.

That's the danger in cultural Afrocentrism and Africology, a danger
worse than anything the Euros ever planned in their denigration
of Africa and things African.

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quote:

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Ebonics, Black American slangs/broken English passed off as some sort of distinct language, is not spoken by Africans, and is by no stretch of imagination related to "Niger-Congo" languages.

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quote:

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It was clear when Dr. Winters wrote his revealing posts explaining the importance of pursuit of ideology and his disregard for truth - that he was more than willing to just 'make stuff up' and throw it out there.

But what happens when the target audiences recognises the smelly nonsense for what it is - and tosses it back at him?

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quote:

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Therefore, the differences in dialects in the Berber languages today or features should not distract us from the point that Berbers ORIGINATED in East Africa, with a language from East Africa and what you see to day are peoples DERIVED largely from that original population, language and culture. This counters somewhat some arguments by Berbers who claim to have originated solely in the Sahara, Atlas and coastal regions, which means to separate them from OTHER Africans.

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quote:

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Christopher Ehret, Professor of African History at UCLA, is a major figure in African history and African historical linguistics, particularly known for his efforts to correlate linguistic taxonomy and reconstruction with the archeological record.

His works include:

Southern Nilotic History: Linguistic Approaches to the Study of the Past. Evanston: Northwestern University Press, 1971.

Ethiopians and East Africans: The Problem of Contacts. Nairobi: East African Publishing House, 1974.

The Historical Reconstruction of Southern Cushitic Phonology and Vocabulary. Berlin: Reimer, 1980.

(C. Ehret and M. Posnansky, eds.) The Archaeological and Linguistic Reconstruction of African History. Berkeley, Los Angeles: University of California Press, 1982.

Reconstructing Proto-Afroasiatic (Proto-Afrasian): Vowels, Tone, Consonants, and Vocabulary. Berkeley, Los Angeles: University of California Press, 1995.

An African Classical Age: Eastern and Southern Africa in World History, 1000 B.C. to A.D. 400. Charlottesville: University Press of Virginia, 1998.

A Comparative Historical Reconstruction of Proto-Nilo-Saharan. Cologne: Rüdiger Köppe Verlag, 2001.

The Civilizations of Africa: A History to 1800. University Press of Virginia, 2002.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Takruri

quote:

---

I guess it is because it definitely says nothing about any 400
year Vandal rule of North Africa. To keep repeating that lie is
intellectually bankrupt and morally inexcusable.

---

To claim that genetics can eliminate both the historical and linguistic evidence that the Berbers are probably the ancient Black Libyans, instead of descendants of the German Vandals is bankrupt. One science can not rewrite the entire past of the Berber people.

.

---

quote:

---

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Ehret, Professor of African History at UCLA, is a major figure in African history and African historical linguistics, particularly known for his efforts to correlate linguistic taxonomy and reconstruction with the archeological record.

His works include:

Southern Nilotic History: Linguistic Approaches to the Study of the Past. Evanston: Northwestern University Press, 1971.

Ethiopians and East Africans: The Problem of Contacts. Nairobi: East African Publishing House, 1974.

The Historical Reconstruction of Southern Cushitic Phonology and Vocabulary. Berlin: Reimer, 1980.

(C. Ehret and M. Posnansky, eds.) The Archaeological and Linguistic Reconstruction of African History. Berkeley, Los Angeles: University of California Press, 1982.

Reconstructing Proto-Afroasiatic (Proto-Afrasian): Vowels, Tone, Consonants, and Vocabulary. Berkeley, Los Angeles: University of California Press, 1995.

An African Classical Age: Eastern and Southern Africa in World History, 1000 B.C. to A.D. 400. Charlottesville: University Press of Virginia, 1998.

A Comparative Historical Reconstruction of Proto-Nilo-Saharan. Cologne: Rüdiger Köppe Verlag, 2001.

The Civilizations of Africa: A History to 1800. University Press of Virginia, 2002.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.history.ucla.edu/ehret/

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Supercar

quote:

---

Ebonics, Black American slangs/broken English passed off as some sort of distinct language, is not spoken by Africans, and is by no stretch of imagination related to "Niger-Congo" languages.

---

I am African American. I speak Ebonics. Therefore Ebonics is spoken by Africans.

The research indicates that many African Americans speak Ebonics. Ebonic speakers use an African morphology and syntax analogous to that found among Niger-Congo speaking people in West Africa, and an English vocabulary. As a result these people have a different orthography, phonetic system and deep grammatical structure from Standard American English. This causes manifold Ebonic speakers to have difficulty grasping the correct SAE phonemes represented by its symbols and reading in general. This failure to match Ebonics and SAE interfers with the development of reading fluency among some speakers of this language.

The psychological literature makes it clear that our ability to use language will determine our success in school. It is therefore language that allows us to determine strategies for problem solving, word meanings, factual knowledge and procedures for doing things.

There is an innate mechanism for learning language. Language in humans is an instinct that results from interaction between a
child and his environment, culture and ethnic origin. This process provides the child with the necessary phonemic elements to create words to name objects.

During the slave trade African slaves were brought to America from West Africa. In this area people speak the Niger-Congo languages.

During much of the slavery period African slaves were usually isolated from white Americans. But it is believed that the English spoken in the south and west counties of Britain may have been the model of English acquired by the slaves in Virginia.

Years of social separation of African Americans and whites, first during slavery, and later due to segregation led to a continuity of Niger-Congo linguistic features among many African Americans. Traditionally Ebonics is seen as a form of SAE with a transformed phonology or surface structure pursuant to the transformational theory of linguistics developed by Chomsky.

This view of Ebonics is false. Ebonic speakers use an African 1) morphology and syntax, and 2) a vocabulary that is English.

Ebonics has evidence of Niger-Congo influence in grammatical features, vocabulary survivals, consonant clustering avoidance and absent phonics. In Ebonics the word dig, is used to mean understand. This corresponds to the Wolof word "dega" 'to understand'. For example, lets compare sentences:
SAE: Do you understand English?
Ebonics: D'ya dig black talk?
Wolof: Dega nga olof?

In African languages, to acknowledge that everything is all right you would say "waw" along with the emphatic particle "kay", this would be pronounced "Wow Kay". This corresponds to the American use of the phrase "OK", to signify "all right, certainly".

In the Niger-Congo languages and Ebonics, the final consonant clusters are never pronounced, e.g.,

SAE … Ebonics


left …lef

desk …des

fast …fas

We also find that Ebonics and Niger-Congo speakers will not produce certain sounds found in SAE, e.g.,

SAE … Ebonics

think … tink

then … den

drift …drif

build …bil

This clearly indicates that Ebonics and SAE are mutually intelligible, but like German and Norwegian (which belong to the same family of languages as English) they are mutually distinct.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
No linguists view Tamazight as a branch of Indo-European.

European languages tack grammar info onto the end of a word but
Tamazight changes the word's vowels and adds to both front and
back ends of the word. Also, the Tamazight sentence structure
places the verb before the subject and the object comes last.

Basque, an isolate language, is the only European language
that I can recall anyone saying bears any relationship to
Berber.

For whatever it means I've never run across any reference to
Berber as an Indo-European language family. Even Obenga,
Diop's protege, classifies it as a language whose nativity
is African. Obenga proposes Berber to be one of his three
African superphyla.

Obenga's employed standard linguistic methodology comparing
phonetic laws in regards to morphemes, phonemes, and lexicon
to aid arriving at common earlier forms (protolexicon). He
eschewed solo use of typologies as they can, in his opinion,
yield no clues to predialectal common ancestry on their own.

In the case of Berber, Obenga's analysis concluded that it lacks
the morphological, lexicological, and syntactic similarities of
parallelism needed to demonstrate philial relationship to
Egyptian. Thus, like "Khoisan", Berber forms its own phylum
in Obenga's schema.

---

code:

---

  *ktaba`      ‘I wrote’
 t*ktabad      ‘you (2s) wrote’
  iktab        ‘he wrote’
 t*ktab        ‘she wrote’
 n*ktab        ‘we wrote’
 t*ktabam      ‘you (2p/m) wrote’
 t*ktabmat     ‘you (2p/f) wrote’
  *ktaban      ‘they (3p/m) wrote’
  *ktabnat     ‘they (3p/f) wrote’

---

code:

---

            causative:     s*-kt*b    ‘make write’
              passive:   t*w*-kt*b    ‘be written’
 reciprocal/reflexive:     nâ-ktâbm   ‘write to each other’

---

quote:

---

You have no evidence or case whatsoever, to justify your equating "aboriginal" Berbers to Afrikaans.

---

quote:

---

Conjugation

Example of “past completed aspect.” The root for “to write” is ktb.

code:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*ktaba` ‘I wrote’ t*ktabad ‘you (2s) wrote’ iktab ‘he wrote’ t*ktab ‘she wrote’ n*ktab ‘we wrote’ t*ktabam ‘you (2p/m) wrote’ t*ktabmat ‘you (2p/f) wrote’ *ktaban ‘they (3p/m) wrote’ *ktabnat ‘they (3p/f) wrote’

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

conjugation formula ~= pron.TAM-(derivator-)consonant.root-pron.TAM


Examples of changing voice.

code:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

causative: s*-kt*b ‘make write’ passive: t*w*-kt*b ‘be written’ reciprocal/reflexive: nâ-ktâbm ‘write to each other’

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Supercar

quote:

---

You have no evidence or case whatsoever, to justify your equating "aboriginal" Berbers to Afrikaans.

---

Yes I do. The 1)founders of both groups originally came from Europe,

---

quote:

---

Clyde Winters:

2) now they are African due to Africa becoming their new home,

---

quote:

---

Clyde Winters:

and 3) the grammars of their language has a Germanic base.

---

I remember some vague remark that you've attributed to Diop, but I haven't seen your reconstructions of the said languages, along with the timelines of both the origin and divergence of Berber languages.

Get busy - with answers.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Hore

quote:

---

"There are about ten million Berbers scattered across the vast regions of Northern Africa. Their tribes stretch from the Siwa Oasis in Egypt to the Atlantic Ocean. It is thought that they once inhabited the entire North African territory, forcing the Negro population to move further southward through the desert. However, the exact origins of the Berbers and how they arrived in North Africa still remains a mystery."

You find this everywhere you look. "There origin remains a mystery." That is except for the scholars on ES. This comes out of the world book by the way. I can assure you none of these resources will ever list rasol and SC explanation.

---

quote:

---

remember some vague remark that you've attributed to Diop, but I haven't seen your reconstructions of the said languages, along with the timelines of both the origin and divergence of Berber languages.

---

quote:

---

The language of the Berbers is East African.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Supercar

quote:

---

remember some vague remark that you've attributed to Diop, but I haven't seen your reconstructions of the said languages, along with the timelines of both the origin and divergence of Berber languages.

---

I have not seen your reconstructions as well. Please post a few.

---

quote:

---

Encyclopedia.com

" The origins of the Berbers are uncertain, although many theories have been advanced relating them to the Canaanites, the Phoenicians, the Celts, the Basques, and the Caucasians. In classical times the Berbers formed such states as Mauretania and Numidia ."

Does not mention East Afrixca guys , sorry. Lets wake up and try to think a little.

---

quote:

---

Phonology

Vowels:
*a, *i, *u were lost or reduced to a, i, u;
*w and *y may appear both as consonants and as vowels,
the emphatics are represented by d, gh (but in reduplication tt, qq), and z.

Spirants:
s (sh)
z (zh).

Interdentals: lost
Laterals: lost
Affricates: lost


Word formation and morphology

Except in the verb, there are only traces of
the internal inflection type of word formation
characteristic of the Semitic branch.

Former articles no longer retaining determinative functions
(masculine *ha-, plural *hi, feminine *ta-, plural *ti-)
are prefixed under certain conditions to the noun,
displacing the prefixed markers of gender, w- and t-.

These latter gender markers are used in a noun form
as an attribute or subject of a verb
when following the predicate in the sentence.

Plural noun:
masculine -n and -an
feminine -in

Pluralis fractus:
mostly an infixation of -a-

Habitative form perfective of main verbal stem:
reduplication of second root consonant
or prefixation of -tt- to the word base


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Tamashek has several verbal tenses.
Little or no intelligibility between the dialects, except for historically neighbouring ones.
Great number of Arabic borrowings evident in most dialects.
Also numerous borrowings from
Punic
Latin
Songhai
other south of Sahara languages.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
What's going on here?

---

quote:

---

What's going on?
Nothing more than expected.
Instead of providing any morphologies yourself
you just summarily dismiss that which is presented.
This is why I hesitated to take the needed time and effort to provide samples in the first place.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
What's going on here?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conjugation

Example of “past completed aspect.” The root for “to write” is ktb.

code:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*ktaba` ‘I wrote’ t*ktabad ‘you (2s) wrote’ iktab ‘he wrote’ t*ktab ‘she wrote’ n*ktab ‘we wrote’ t*ktabam ‘you (2p/m) wrote’ t*ktabmat ‘you (2p/f) wrote’ *ktaban ‘they (3p/m) wrote’ *ktabnat ‘they (3p/f) wrote’

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

conjugation formula ~= pron.TAM-(derivator-)consonant.root-pron.TAM


Examples of changing voice.

code:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

causative: s*-kt*b ‘make write’ passive: t*w*-kt*b ‘be written’ reciprocal/reflexive: nâ-ktâbm ‘write to each other’

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Tamashek has several verbal tenses.
Little or no intelligibility between the dialects, except for historically neighbouring ones.
Great number of Arabic borrowings evident in most dialects.
Also numerous borrowings from
Punic
Latin
Songhai
other south of Sahara languages.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---

quote:

---

Originally Takruri


The radical k-t-b is borrowed from Semitic.
The conjugation is pure Tamasheq,
which you wouldn't know from German.

---

quote:

---

Produce German roots and morphology side by side with Berber.

Money talk, bullsh*t walk.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally Takruri


The radical k-t-b is borrowed from Semitic.
The conjugation is pure Tamasheq,
which you wouldn't know from German.

---

Now that you have discussed Arabic/Semitic. Please provide an example from Berber.Oops. You don't have any....Is that it?


.

---

quote:

---

alTakruri has laid down examples of the language structures of Tamasheq, a Berber language. You haven't produced "any" in conjunction with Germanic.

Nor have you produced any Germanic or European paternal ties with aboriginal North Africans. Is that all you have to offer!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Supercar

quote:

---

alTakruri has laid down examples of the language structures of Tamasheq, a Berber language. You haven't produced "any" in conjunction with Germanic.

Nor have you produced any Germanic or European paternal ties with aboriginal North Africans. Is that all you have to offer!

---

He did not produce any BerBer examples. The examples he presented were Semitic. A fact Takruri notes himself.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:

They know the Burbers are europeans clyde. It is such a silly discussion its not worthy of very much comment. All of this is tied in to their never ceasing efforts to transform Nubians into Egyptians.

---

quote:

---

They know the Burbers are europeans clyde. It is such a silly discussion its not worthy of very much comment. All of this is tied in to their never ceasing efforts to transform Nubians into Egypptians.

---

No one is trying to "transform" anything but Hore and Clyde. Hore tries to transform Egyptians into "caucasians" while Clyde tries to transform 'Berbers' into Europeans while trying to transform black nonAfricans into Africans!! What a mess we have from these two! LMAO

By the way Hore, I hope you realize that Rasol cites actual Berber linguistic information from WHITE Western mainstream scholars who are experts who know what their talking about. That you place more trust in an Afrocentric who tries to tie languages in India, Mexico, and Japan to Africa is beyond me!!

quote:

---

Another case of rasol taking a piece of information and drawing vast conclusions from it. They are usually the conclusions he is looking for in the first place.

---

ROTFLH Hore, Rasol has cited dozens of pieces of information from legitimate scholarly sources, ALL of which are rooted in the established FACT that the Berber languages as members of an Afro-asiatic subfamily are African in origin!!

Will wonders (insanity) ever cease?!!
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
King

quote:

---

I am beginning to get tired of Dr. Winters antics. This is getting Pathetic. Clyde has provided no proof that Berbers are European he just keeps asking others to provide evidence. When people do show him proof he just ignores it and continues to ask for more proof. Listen to what supercar is asking you. Show us that Berbers are Germanic people. What proof do you have. They way you have been talking I can see you don't have anything. This is just as bad as your Dravidian evidence. At least you tried to prove that they were Africans. The Berber evidence so far has been garbage. How can someone be so stubborn to the truth Berbers are African

Peace

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
Encyclopedia.com

"Despite a history of conquests, the Berbers retained a remarkably homogeneous culture, which, on the evidence of Egyptian tomb paintings, derives from earlier than 2400 BC The alphabet of the only partly deciphered ancient Libyan inscriptions is close to the script still used by the Tuareg.

---

Tuareg people

quote:

---

The origins of the Berbers are uncertain, although many theories have been advanced relating them to the Canaanites, the Phoenicians, the Celts, the Basques, and the Caucasians. In classical times the Berbers formed such states as Mauretania and Numidia ."

---

quote:

---

Clyde Winters posted:

The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.

---

quote:

---

Djehuti has answered SEVERAL times:

Apparently for all his 'knowledge' on linguistics, Winters must have forgotten that feminine nouns and names in Afrasian languages also end in a vowel followed by a 't'!!

For example, Egyptian female names like Aset (Isis), Maat, Nofret, Merit etc.

Semitic female names like Benet --meaning daughter, Anat, Astoret etc.

Even Cushitic names like the common Somali name 'Asha' was most likely derived from Ashait.

Ironically, this coincidental similarity to German was one of the "evidences" used by past Eurocentric scholars in their attempt to place the origins of Afroasiatic outside of Africa, and is no doubt still being used by Nostraticists!!

LMFO Apparently Winters has bought their nonsense as well!

---

quote:

---

Does not mention East Africa guys , sorry. Lets wake up and try to think a little.

---

quote:

---

Clyde Winters:

Moreover, the only alleged examples of Berber, other than the Diop material was Takruri's conjugation of Semitic words. Where are the Berber examples you allege other people presented on the forum

Please provide a list of Berber and East African words placed side by side.

---

quote:

---

Tuareg people

---

quote:

---

"Semitic" is Afrasan, in case you were not aware of the fact. But moving along,...web:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Supercar

quote:

---

"Semitic" is Afrasan, in case you were not aware of the fact. But moving along,...web:

---

Are you now saying Berber is a Semitic language?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

I have already said that the Tuareg should not be classed in Berber.

The "white" Berbers do not even claim that they are related to the Tuareg. I hear that the Berber recognize the Tuareg as a separate people.


.

---

quote:

---

Supercar

quote:

---

"Semitic" is Afrasan, in case you were not aware of the fact. But moving along,...web:

---

Are you now saying Berber is a Semitic language?

.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by KING:
Winters needs all the Help he can get. All his ideas are garbage . I am beginning to get tired of trying to talk some sense into this guy. He is just to stubborn in his ideas. Good post Supercar hopefully Dr. Winters will learn something from this. People have provided more then enough evidence linking Berbers to Africa yet he keeps asking for more info. He never proves what he says yet people are just supposed to believe what he says.

Peace

---

Yep, King; is it any wonder that he and Hore are on the same page?

They don't provide requested material, but ask that their hogwash to be disproven, when in fact, nothing has been provided in the first place, so as to warrent disproving.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by KING:
Winters needs all the Help he can get. All his ideas are garbage . I am beginning to get tired of trying to talk some sense into this guy. He is just to stubborn in his ideas. Good post Supercar hopefully Dr. Winters will learn something from this. People have provided more then enough evidence linking Berbers to Africa yet he keeps asking for more info. He never proves what he says yet people are just supposed to believe what he says.

Peace

---

Yeah, the guy needs all the help he can get alright-- PSYCHOLOGICAL help!

It's people like him who are the reason why people don't take African scholars seriously!!

What a damn shame.
 

---

Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Dr. Winters is a very Ignorant person he does not care how much time Supercar and Djehuti
explain it to him he is just going to repeat the same european crap. Lets make it easier for him to understand

1. Berbers are African
2. Berber language originates in Africa
3. Berbers are "Black" and "White"
4. Berber language belongs to Afrasan.
5. Berber language is related SEmetic, Chadic and other Afrasan Languages
6. Berbers are E3b2 clade African they belong to the Pn2 Clade This is the death blow to berber origins outside of Africa.

I hope Dr. Winters is able to understand this.

Peace
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Supercar

quote:

---

"Semitic" is Afrasan, in case you were not aware of the fact. But moving along,...

here's something interesting from the web:

http://lughat.blogspot.com/2005/06/beja-and-beyond.html

A discussion on Berber genealogy that Winters can learn from >

http://phpbb-host.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=61&start=0&mforum=thenile

---

quote:

---

.
While population genetics is a young field still full of controversy, in general the genetic evidence appears to indicate that most Northwest Africans (whether they consider themselves Berber or Arab) are of Berber origin, and that populations ancestral to the Berbers have been in the area since the Upper Paleolithic era. The genetically predominant ancestors of the Berbers appear to have come from the east - from East Africa, the Middle East, or both - but the details of this remain unclear. This genetic predominance lends strength to Berber oral traditions of originating from an ancient Yemeni people that spread eastward from Southern Arabia via the horn of East Africa. However, significant proportions of the Berber gene pool derive from more recent immigration of Arabs, Europeans, and sub-Saharan Africans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


I checked out this page and this is what I found.
.

While population genetics is a young field still full of controversy, in general the genetic evidence appears to indicate that most Northwest Africans (whether they consider themselves Berber or Arab) are of Berber origin, and that populations ancestral to the Berbers have been in the area since the Upper Paleolithic era. The genetically predominant ancestors of the Berbers appear to have come from the east - from East Africa, the Middle East, or both - but the details of this remain unclear. This genetic predominance lends strength to Berber oral traditions of originating from an ancient Yemeni people that spread eastward from Southern Arabia via the horn of East Africa. However, significant proportions of the Berber gene pool derive from more recent immigration of Arabs, Europeans, and sub-Saharan Africans.

---

quote:

---

This is further proof that the Berbers are not related to the ancient Libyans. This discussion of Berber origins makes it clear that the Berbers place their origin in Yemen and Arabia.

---

LOL Nice try but the reason why Yemen is included is because peoples in that country possess African lineages also!! The E2 for example is far older than E3 and frequencies of both have been found in Yemen as well as in Spain!!

quote:

---

King, Yemen is not East Africa.

---

quote:

---

Moreover this statement also makes it clear that the Berber speaking people have European genes. The evidence of European genes, Germanic grammatical base of Berber, Berber tradition of non-African origin for their people supports my view that the Berbers are not the ancient Libyans.

---

quote:

---

When you guys claim the Berbers are the ancient Libyans, you are misusing the genetic evidence to provide the Berbers with a heritage they know is not their own. You are acting just like Eurocentric researchers declaring people to be related to this or that group eventhough the people you give a heritage know where they came from.

---

quote:

---

If you read Diop you will find that all of this information provided in the Web page on Berber origins, was provided by Diop back in the 1950's.

---

quote:

---

Supercar this page on Berber tradition confirms the research of Diop that the Berbers were not of African heritage. It proves that these people are not the ancient Libyans.

---

NO it DOESN'T!

Give it up, Clyde! Your fantasy pseudo-crap ends!!


 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
I admit no such thing and give the sources for the conjugation
which is by no means Semitic but does evince the relation of both
these Afrisan languages. Once again by your total unfamiliarity and
lack of knowledge on the subject matter you defeat your own argument

But it doesn't bother me. You wouldn't acknowledge a
600 pound gorilla thumping you in the chest unless it was
a German Berber or a Japanese Mande.

In the meantime you haven't produced jack.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
He did not produce any BerBer examples. The examples he presented were Semitic. A fact Takruri notes himself.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Supercar

quote:

---

"Semitic" is Afrasan, in case you were not aware of the fact. But moving along,...

here's something interesting from the web:

http://lughat.blogspot.com/2005/06/beja-and-beyond.html

A discussion on Berber genealogy that Winters can learn from >

http://phpbb-host.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=61&start=0&mforum=thenile

---

I checked out this page and this is what I found.
.

quote:

---

.
While population genetics is a young field still full of controversy, in general the genetic evidence appears to indicate that most Northwest Africans (whether they consider themselves Berber or Arab) are of Berber origin, and that populations ancestral to the Berbers have been in the area since the Upper Paleolithic era. The genetically predominant ancestors of the Berbers appear to have come from the east - from East Africa, the Middle East, or both - but the details of this remain unclear. This genetic predominance lends strength to Berber oral traditions of originating from an ancient Yemeni people that spread eastward from Southern Arabia via the horn of East Africa. However, significant proportions of the Berber gene pool derive from more recent immigration of Arabs, Europeans, and sub-Saharan Africans.

---

This is further proof that the Berbers are not related to the ancient Libyans. This discussion of Berber origins makes it clear that the Berbers place their origin in Yemen and Arabia.

King, Yemen is not East Africa.


Moreover this statement also makes it clear that the Berber speaking people have European genes. The evidence of European genes, Germanic grammatical base of Berber, Berber tradition of non-African origin for their people supports my view that the Berbers are not the ancient Libyans.


When you guys claim the Berbers are the ancient Libyans, you are misusing the genetic evidence to provide the Berbers with a heritage they know is not their own. You are acting just like Eurocentric researchers declaring people to be related to this or that group eventhough the people you give a heritage know where they came from.

If you read Diop you will find that all of this information provided in the Web page on Berber origins, was provided by Diop back in the 1950's.

Supercar this page on Berber tradition confirms the research of Diop that the Berbers were not of African heritage. It proves that these people are not the ancient Libyans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
I admit no such thing and give the sources for the conjugation
which is by no means Semitic but does evince the relation of both
these Afrisan languages. Once again by your total unfamiliarity and
lack of knowledge on the subject matter you defeat your own argument

But it doesn't bother me. You wouldn't acknowledge a
600 pound gorilla thumping you in the chest unless it was
a German Berber or a Japanese Mande.

In the meantime you haven't produced jack.

---

quote:

---

provided a link on linguistics, that shows the Afrasan orientation of a Berber language, not "Germanic". What is said with regards to Yemen or what not, has nothing to do with the intended point of my providing the link. Notwithstanding, Yemeni speak Afrasan languages, not "Germanic". Proto-Afrasan spread from East Africa to North Africa and the Levant.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Please provide a list of Berber and East African words placed side by side.

---

quote:

---

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NO! Enough of your BS!

YOU post German vocabulary, conjugations, and rules of
morphology side by side with Tamazight.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Don't change the subject,we are talking about Berber languages.

---

quote:

---

Clyde Wintes:

Here you acknowledge that the Berbers are Yemenis.If they were Yemenis, they can not be ancient Libyans. Enough said.

---

quote:

---

Clyde Winters:

Moreover your own paper acknowledges that Berbers have European genes. If the paper identified European genes Berbers are related to Europeans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Don't change the subject,we are talking about Berber languages.

---

quote:

---

The Web page you cite acknowledge that the Berbers claim they are Yemenis.If they were Yemenis, they can not be ancient Libyans. Enough said.

---

quote:

---

[Moreover your own paper acknowledges that Berbers have European genes. If the paper identified European genes Berbers are related to Europeans.

---

quote:

---

All of these factors support my propositions.

---

you wish!
 

---

Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
I showed him a study I think he should read and he just ignored the study. This guy is not looking to learn he just wants to stay ignorant and keep talking about Berbers are european. He has no evidence for what he says it is just crap he talks. Berbers are Africans he has to accept the truth.

Peace
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^^And all the while claiming indigenous Indians and Mexicans to be Africans!! ROTFL
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Clyde

Enough of your BS!

YOU post German vocabulary, conjugations, and rules of
morphology side by side with Tamazight.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^^
 

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Posted by ChImPs (Member # 10093) on :
 
are those pictures the one holding the baby is she muslim ,why she not covered then ..
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
King

quote:

---

I showed him a study I think he should read and he just ignored the study. This guy is not looking to learn he just wants to stay ignorant and keep talking about Berbers are european. He has no evidence for what he says it is just crap he talks. Berbers are Africans he has to accept the truth.

Peace

---

I read the study but I didn't find it too significant. It just claimed that the Iberians had African male genes.

I have known that Black men played an important role in Spain and Protugal because they were the Moors of Spain.



Many of these Moors were Almoravids. They had come from Yasin's ribat that was located in Senegal. These Black Africans were Sudani, Taureg and Sanhaja. They were led into the Iberian Peninsula by Yousef b. Tashfin. Four thousand of the troops at the Battle of al-Zalaqa in 1089 were of Sudani origin. In the Roudh al-Kartas, Tashfin was described as "dark and wooly haired".

It is clear you know nothing about ancient Black/African History. If you read the works of Diop, DuBois and J.A. Rogers you will see and understand the great history of African people. This knowledge will help you to understand that genetics can not tell you anything about ancient world history of Black and African people.

.
 

---

Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
 
131 posts + into the discussion and still the basic requests asked at the beginning of the topic remain unaddressed:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Yes I do. The 1)founders of both groups originally came from Europe,

---

• Demonstrate it GENETICALLY; paternally and maternally.

quote:

---

Clyde Winters:

2) now they are African due to Africa becoming their new home,

---

• Never been anywhere but Africa. But if you insist on saying otherwise, then pray tell, where were they before coming to Africa? Why are their males not represented in the Berber gene pool? Moreover, let's get the name of that group, and the said "Berber" language that they speak - needless to say, demonstrating "intelligibility" with the North African "Berber" languages.

quote:

---

Clyde Winters:

and 3) the grammars of their language has a Germanic base.

---

• I remember some vague remark that you've attributed to Diop, but I haven't seen your RECONSTRUCTIONS of the said languages, along with the TIMELINES of both the origin and divergence of Berber languages.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hotep2u:

Greetings:

The Berbers (also called Imazighen, "free men", singular Amazigh)

I said it before BERBER is a Greek word that means BARBARIANS, so you ignored my warning about the Berber ruse and ended up in a debate that is just as confusing as the Berber Construct.

What a shame,

Maghrebians\Imazighen are a mixed people who have a varied history and lineage, all the individuals grouped as "Berbers"\Barbarians are not native Afrikans. Some groups who occupy Maghreb are natives some are in-comers just has Herodotus says, just as the DNA, and Linguistic evidence points to. Now WHICH SPECIFIC ethnic group is native to the area is the real story.
Kabyle
Chawis
Riffis
Chenwas
Mozabites
Chleuhs
Tuaregs
Saharan Imazighen,
Oasis Imazighen

so many distinct groups who are the in-comers versus the natives that is the question?
This question cannot be answered by lumping different ethnic groups into one.

Hotep

---

If suits your taste, I'll use West Afrasan speakers, in lieu of "Berbers" [on which you are correct, i.e. started out as a pejorative, and adopted by linguists AND even various contemporary Afrasan speakers from coastal West Africa].

As far as your question [as highlighted above], is concerned, let me help you:

The answer is, *ALL* the above groups are "natives". Gene flow into indigenous gene pools doesn't suddenly make a group non-indigenous, nor is it unique to the "West Afrasan" speakers, and hence, a non-starter for logic. They all share the following in common;

a)Languages belonging to Afrasan group, but found nowhere else and

b)predominant E3b1b paternal lineages.
 

---

Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
 
In the meantime from an earlier link, exemplifying relationships between West and Eastern Afrasan languages:

Beja definite article--Arabic noun endings--Kabyle obligatory prefix

------Masculine nominative singular------
[Beja df*] u:- ;[Arabic ne*] -u ;[Kabyle op*] w-


------Masculine accusative singular-------

[Beja df*] o- ;[Arabic ne*] -a ; [Kabyle op*] a-


-------Feminine nominative singular-------

[Beja df*] tu:- ;[Arabic ne*] -atu ;[Kabyle op*]t-

-------Feminine accusative singular

[Beja df*] to- ;[Arabic ne*] -ata;[Kabyle op*] ta-


[Notes on abreviations >

Beja df* =Beja definite article

Arabic ne* =Arabic noun endings

Kabyle op* =Kabyle obligatory prefix]


And the pronominal object suffixes add credence:

-------------Beja---Arabic-----Kabyle
me----------->-i,<--->-o -ni:<-->-iyi
you---------->-ok<--->-ka<------>-ik
us----------->-on<--->-na:<----->-aγ
you (pl.)---->-okn<-->-kum <---->-kən


(Beja, apparently, has no third person suffixes.) However, what really clinches it is the verbal system. Beja has two principal classes of verbs: one that often takes prefixes, and one that usually just takes suffixes. In Semitic, the prefixes are used for the imperfect, and the suffixes developed from a stative (still to be seen in Akkadian) into a perfect; Berber mostly retains the prefixes, whereas only minor traces of the suffixes remain. The prefixes are especially telling:


--------------Beja-----Arabic----Kabyle


I------------->a-<------>'a-<------> -γ
you (m.)------>ti-, -a<-> ta-<-----> t- -o
you (f.) ----->ti- -i<--> ta- -i:<-> t- -o
he ----------->i-<------> ya-<-----> i-
she----------->ti-<-----> ta-<-----> t-
we------------>n-<------> na-<-----> n-
you (pl.)----->ti- -na<-> ta- -u:na<->t- -m
they---------->i- -na<--->ya- -u:na<->-n


Suffixes:

--------------Beja-----Arabic----Dahalo-general non-past


I------------->-i<------>-tu<------>-o
you (m.)------>-tia<---->-ta<------>-to
you (f.)------>-tii<---->-ti<------>-to
he------------>-i<------>-a<------->-:i
she----------->-ti<----->-at<------>-to
we------------>-ni<----->-na:<----->-no
you (pl.)----->-tina<--->-tum<----->-ten
they---------->-ina<---->-u:<------>-en, -ammi


Just for good measure, in the prefix verbs you also have a feature found in Akkadian (among other Semitic languages) and Berber but lost in Arabic: a present tense formed by doubling the middle radical (in Berber and Akkadian) or adding n before the middle radical (in Beja). Compare:


Beja aktim ("I arrived") > akanti:m ("I arrive")

Akkadian almad ("I learned") > alammad ("I am learning")*

Tamasheq əlmədəy ("I learn", irrealis) > lammədəy ("I am learning", realis)

Source: http://lughat.blogspot.com/2005/06/beja-and-beyond.html
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^^Well there you have it, Clyde!!

Are you satisfied?! Then again, maybe not.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

I read the study but I didn't find it too significant. It just claimed that the Iberians had African male genes.

---

quote:

---

I have known that Black men played an important role in Spain and Protugal because they were the Moors of Spain.

---

Actually Clyde, these studies indicate that some of the African paternal lineages Iberians inherited was from a much earlier time period corresponding with the Neolithic. The main lineage being E2 which is kind of rare in Africa and not as common as E3 lineages.

quote:

---

Many of these Moors were Almoravids. They had come from Yasin's ribat that was located in Senegal. These Black Africans were Sudani, Taureg and Sanhaja. They were led into the Iberian Peninsula by Yousef b. Tashfin. Four thousand of the troops at the Battle of al-Zalaqa in 1089 were of Sudani origin. In the Roudh al-Kartas, Tashfin was described as "dark and wooly haired".

---

LOL Tuareg and Sanhaja are BOTH BERBER peoples!!

quote:

---

It is clear you know nothing about ancient Black/African History. If you read the works of Diop, DuBois and J.A. Rogers you will see and understand the great history of African people. This knowledge will help you to understand that genetics can not tell you anything about ancient world history of Black and African people.

---

It is clear that YOU know little to nothing about black African history with all the crap you talk about all the time in this board. The works of Diop and others were only the beginning, mainstream science supports some of the things they say, (such as great civilizations in Africa) while refuting other things (Dravidians being Africans).

Genetics is one of the many things that have revolutionized our knowledge in the history of Africa and the world in general, but that you deny a TRUE science in favor of your psuedo-science is not our problem!
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChImPs:

are those pictures the one holding the baby is she muslim ,why she not covered then ..

---

quote:

---

Djehuti wrote:
There are some peoples in Africa who, although are self proclaimed Muslims, are not as pious and strict about certain Muslim codes. Such observance of some Muslim codes but not others can result in quite odd peculiarities.

The Wodaabe of West Africa are Muslims but they continue their tradition of polyandry, where the women are allowed to have 2 husbands, and among the Afar of East Africa, even though the women wear hijab (head coverings) they can go topless with their breasts exposed!!

The Tuareg, a BERBER group of North Africa have the strangest custom where the men are expected to cover up and are even the ones who cover their faces with veils while the women do not!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shango:
Dr. Clyde and all,

When you speak of these groups, you speak as if they are some "other" people. Some people of African descent in the New World are descended from Berber stock along the female line. The Berber U6 mtdna haplotype and many L3 Tuareg lineages are in the New World. These people are your people.

The "kh' or "ch" guttural sound is found in the Wolof language of Senegal. These people are also part of our collective ancestry. And they have some U6 mtdnas. The same goes for some Peul and other Atlantic Niger-Congo speakers.

---

quote:

---

Shango:

I haven't seen any report of the Berber-type E3b Y chromosomes in African American men, however.

The Vandals and Sea Peoples are the partial ancestors of the most Northern Amazingh partly. The R1b Y chromosome is found in Tamazgha's northern regions.

---

quote:

---

Beja and beyond
Some interesting news this week from the Beja, an ethnic group of the Red Sea coast of Sudan and Egypt. It's unclear whether this rebellion is representative of the Beja's general feelings or just a figleaf for Eritrean intervention (or both), but it's a story to watch - and an excuse to bring up a cool language.

Beja is Afro-Asiatic* - either part of Cushitic or a separate branch, depending on who you ask - and happens to be among the most obviously similar languages to Semitic and to Berber.

http://lughat.blogspot.com/2005/06/beja-and-beyond.html

---

quote:

---

In the meantime from an earlier link, exemplifying relationships between West and Eastern Afrasan languages:

Beja definite article--Arabic noun endings--Kabyle obligatory prefix

------Masculine nominative singular------
[Beja df*] u:- ;[Arabic ne*] -u ;[Kabyle op*] w-


------Masculine accusative singular-------

[Beja df*] o- ;[Arabic ne*] -a ; [Kabyle op*] a-


-------Feminine nominative singular-------

[Beja df*] tu:- ;[Arabic ne*] -atu ;[Kabyle op*]t-

-------Feminine accusative singular

[Beja df*] to- ;[Arabic ne*] -ata;[Kabyle op*] ta-


[Notes on abreviations >

Beja df* =Beja definite article

Arabic ne* =Arabic noun endings

Kabyle op* =Kabyle obligatory prefix]


And the pronominal object suffixes add credence:

-------------Beja---Arabic-----Kabyle
me----------->-i,<--->-o -ni:<-->-iyi
you---------->-ok<--->-ka<------>-ik
us----------->-on<--->-na:<----->-aγ
you (pl.)---->-okn<-->-kum <---->-kən


(Beja, apparently, has no third person suffixes.) However, what really clinches it is the verbal system. Beja has two principal classes of verbs: one that often takes prefixes, and one that usually just takes suffixes. In Semitic, the prefixes are used for the imperfect, and the suffixes developed from a stative (still to be seen in Akkadian) into a perfect; Berber mostly retains the prefixes, whereas only minor traces of the suffixes remain. The prefixes are especially telling:


--------------Beja-----Arabic----Kabyle


I------------->a-<------>'a-<------> -γ
you (m.)------>ti-, -a<-> ta-<-----> t- -o
you (f.) ----->ti- -i<--> ta- -i:<-> t- -o
he ----------->i-<------> ya-<-----> i-
she----------->ti-<-----> ta-<-----> t-
we------------>n-<------> na-<-----> n-
you (pl.)----->ti- -na<-> ta- -u:na<->t- -m
they---------->i- -na<--->ya- -u:na<->-n


Suffixes:

--------------Beja-----Arabic----Dahalo-general non-past


I------------->-i<------>-tu<------>-o
you (m.)------>-tia<---->-ta<------>-to
you (f.)------>-tii<---->-ti<------>-to
he------------>-i<------>-a<------->-:i
she----------->-ti<----->-at<------>-to
we------------>-ni<----->-na:<----->-no
you (pl.)----->-tina<--->-tum<----->-ten
they---------->-ina<---->-u:<------>-en, -ammi


Just for good measure, in the prefix verbs you also have a feature found in Akkadian (among other Semitic languages) and Berber but lost in Arabic: a present tense formed by doubling the middle radical (in Berber and Akkadian) or adding n before the middle radical (in Beja). Compare:


Beja aktim ("I arrived") > akanti:m ("I arrive")

Akkadian almad ("I learned") > alammad ("I am learning")*

Tamasheq əlmədəy ("I learn", irrealis) > lammədəy ("I am learning", realis)

Source: http://lughat.blogspot.com/2005/06/beja-and-beyond.html

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Supercar the material you published does not prove the Berber are the ancient Libyans.

---

quote:

---

The writer of this site was discussing how Beja, shares many features with Arabic.

---

quote:

---

Clyde Winters:

Supercar the material you published does not prove the Berber are the ancient Libyans. The writer of this site was discussing how Beja, shares many features with Arabic.

We have already discussed the fact that the Berber claim they came from Yemen. Therefore it is no surprise that this Berber language is closely related to Arabic, the speakers of the langauge said they came from Yemen.

---

quote:

---

Four languages are compared; "Beja", "Arabic", "Dahalo" and "Kabyle" - or are you just pretending not to have noticed "Kabyle" in the bunch? All, but just one of those languages, are African specific Afrasan languages; They are **ALL** Afrasan languages. On the other hand, we haven't seen any material from you to suggest "genetic" or "structural" affinities of "Kabyle" with "Germanic" or any indo-European language for that matter; all you can do, is shift your claims from stating that Berber is Germanic to now being Yemeni. This is unacceptable in scholarship; it is an embarrassment.

You have yet to produce any "genetic" evidence to suggest that West Afrasan speakers originate in Yemeni; produce material for this - and yes, I care not what some "oral" tradition states, just as I care not what you claim some "oral" Dravidian traditions states!

If I were you, I would get busy in trying to redeem myself after this colossal debacle.

---

quote:

---

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are we still talking about Berbers? Now Clyde turns away from europe and turns to Yemen? Clyde how does any of this Prove your point? I don't understand I dont know how someone can be so stubborn to the truth. Clyde, Berbers are African. Why are you trying so hard to cover up this fact? You have provided no evidence that Berbers are non african. Present some evidence so we can discuss. Supercar just showed you proof that Berber is related to other Afrasan languages what more do you need. It is time to wake up. Accept the truth. Berbers are African

Peace

---

quote:

---

From Answers.com, we have the following:


While population genetics is a young field still full of controversy, in general the genetic evidence appears to indicate that most Northwest Africans (whether they consider themselves Berber or Arab) are of Berber origin, and that populations ancestral to the Berbers have been in the area since the Upper Paleolithic era. The genetically predominant ancestors of the Berbers appear to have come from the east - from East Africa, the Middle East, or both - but the details of this remain unclear. This genetic predominance lends strength to Berber oral traditions of originating from an ancient Yemeni people that spread eastward from Southern Arabia via the horn of East Africa. However, significant proportions of the Berber gene pool derive from more recent immigration of Arabs, Europeans, and sub-Saharan Africans.

---

quote:

---

Below is the discussion of Berber traditions about originating in Yemen

---

quote:

---

These Yeminis have intermarried with the old Zenaga Tamazight
speakers of the region between the Rio Oro and the Senegal and
do not claim to be any kind of Berber at all but claim to be Arab,
pure and simple, and will fight with intent to injure or kill anyone
foolish enough to say anything otherwise to their face.

---

quote:

---

There is no Amazigh oral tradition of origins from the Yemen.

The Amazigh are a people, not just speakers of a language set.
Like all peoples they have an origin story. Theirs is that they
spring from an eponymous ancestor, Mazigh. This Mazigh's
grandson Berr is thought to be where the onomatopoeiac
ethnonym "Berber" originates. The Imazighen classify
themselves under two major Berr clans, Beranis or Butr.

---

quote:

---

Why do the authors of this passage claim the genetic evidences supports a Yemeni origin for the Berbers

---

quote:

---

The genetically predominant ancestors of the Berbers appear to have come from the east - based on genetics - E3b2, that is correct.

from East Africa - based on the fact that the expansion date of E3b2 is earliest in Egypt, that is also correct.

the Middle East - since E3b2 is *not* found in the middle East - nor is Berber langauge - that is *not* correct.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
If there is no oral tradition that the Berbers came from Yemen, why do the experts you rely on claim this tradition exist? Moreover, if the Arabs in Mauritania admit they came from Yemen--there is no way they would be confused with the Berbers, who also claim a Yemeni origin.

---

quote:

---

And since the Yemini speak a Semitic (in your words, Puntite)
language, Yemini origins would only serve to confirm a lingual
relation with Afrisan not Germanic.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

I am glad you are finally admiting that the Berber people came from Yemen. It took you a long time but now you finally realize that the Berber are not the ancient Libyans and they did not originate in North Africa.

---

Sorry Clyde, but that's not what Takruri meant and you know it!

Silly child pyschological games won't cut it here.

Berber is related to Yemeni in that BOTH are Afrasian. Berber did originate from the east, from east AFRICA to be exact as with most Afrasian languages but NOT from Yemen.

Prove that a Berber migration from Yemen to Northwest Africa took place, specifically 8,000 years ago.

You cannot. The genetic samples used were taken from living people, NOT skeletons. Scientists can measure mutation rates of these lineages and thus calculate the time these lineages diverged.

FACT is there are no M81 markers in Yemen but there are in Egypt and even Ethiopia.

Just admit that you are WRONG, just as you are about the Dravidians and Olmecs but I doubt you are able to do that.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Djehuti

quote:

---

Berber is related to Yemeni in that BOTH are Afrasian. Berber did originate from the east, from east AFRICA to be exact as with most Afrasian languages but NOT from Yemen.

Prove that a Berber migration from Yemen to Northwest Africa took place, specifically 8,000 years ago.

You cannot. The genetic samples used were taken from living people, NOT skeletons. Scientists can measure mutation rates of these lineages and thus calculate the time these lineages diver

---

quote:

---

Molecular clocks don't always tick at the steady, slow rate many evolutionists predicted. This article reports on new evidence that the divergence of molecular structure in mitochondrial DNA can occur many orders of magnitude more rapidly than was earlier supposed. This can bring the time for speciation down from millions of years to only several thousand years, which, of course, is consistent with the biblical time framework.

Evolutionists have long attempted to date the origin of taxonomic groups through the use of molecular clocks. Using two (or more) species, they determine the differences in a given stretch of their DNA molecules, and then see how long ago, according to the fossil record, those taxonomic groups diverged. The rate of divergence over time gives one a "clock" of molecular change. The problem with this approach is that the clocks are often very contradictory.

However, there was thought to have been one ideal molecular "clock" that was largely exempt from these problems. This "clock" is mitochondrial DNA (hereafter abbreviated mtDNA). Most of the cell's DNA resides in the nucleus, and serves as the cell's "government". However, the mitochondria, the organelle in the cell which serves as the cell's power station, also has some DNA (see Figure 1). Evolutionists have long believed that this mtDNA is a relic from the cell's evolutionary past, ostensibly billions of years ago. They imagine that the mitochondria was once a separate living entity, and its DNA served a governing function analogous to the cell's nuclear DNA.

There are a number of reasons why mtDNA was thought to be an ideal molecular "clock." First of all, unlike nuclear DNA, mtDNA is not divided during cell division. It simply gets duplicated through a carbon-copy like duplication when cells divide, with the duplicate going to the daughter cell. During sexual reproduction, mtDNA passes down through the mother's lineage, so there is no complicating addition of paternal mtDNA.

Finally, mtDNA was thought to receive mutations that were predominantly neutral. That is, most mutations in mtDNA would be exempt from natural selection, because those mutations would neither help the organisms out-compete other similar organisms, nor create a disadvantage for organisms in competition with others. Therefore, so it was reasoned, one only had to count the number of mutants in the mtDNA between any taxonomic groups, and one could approximate how long ago they diverged.

Not surprisingly, given standard geological dating, the figures were on the order of millions of years. A sequence- divergence rate of only 2% per million years has been quoted (MacRae and Anderson 1988, p. 485).

Now comes new evidence, however, that mtDNA is subject to natural selection. Moreover, not only does this occur within a species, but also within a relatively small, well-defined population. To top it all off, the variation also occurs in a short period of time.

Contrary to conventional evolutionary wisdom, some earlier evidence indicated that mtDNA is not subject only to neutral mutations (Fos et. al. 1990, MacRae and Anderson 1988). However, much of this evidence was ignored because it did not fit the reigning evolutionary belief in the primacy of neutral mutations (Malhotra and Thorpe 1994, p. 37).

The new field evidence indicates, however, that mtDNA is subject to natural selection. Malhotra and Thorpe (1994) studied the sequence of mtDNA among certain lizards in islands of the Caribbean Sea. They found morphological (i.e., anatomical) variation in these lizards, following moisture gradients on the islands: the animals' coloration, number of scales, and body proportions varied with local ecological conditions.

What is really surprising, however, is the fact that the mtDNA of the lizards also follows these ecological gradients! This strikes at the very heart of the prevalent belief that mtDNA is very stable, and only changes slowly through the accumulation of neutral mutations over many millions of years.

The implications of this finding are significant. Instead of accumulating mutation-by-mutation over millions of years, mutations in mtDNA can become rapidly fixed in a population. Major divergences in the mtDNA could have occurred in thousands, instead of millions of years. This is in line with the biblical time frame.

http://www.rae.org/clocks.html

---

quote:

---

Recently an attempt was made to estimate the age of the human race using mitochondrial DNA. This material is inherited always from mother to children only. By measuring the difference in mitochondrial DNA among many individuals, the age of the common maternal ancestor of humanity was estimated at about 200,000 years.
A problem is that rates of mutation are not known by direct measurement, and are often computed based on assumed evolutionary time scales. Thus all of these age estimates could be greatly in error. In fact, many different rates of mutation are quoted by different biologists.



It shouldn't be very hard explicitly to measure the rate of mutation of mitochondrial DNA to get a better estimate on this age. From royal lineages, for example, one could find two individuals whose most recent common maternal ancestor was, say, 1000 years ago. One could then measure the differences in the mitochondrial DNA of these individuals to bound its mutation rate. This scheme is attractive because it does not depend on radiometric dating or other assumptions about evolution or mutation rates. It is possible that in 1000 years there would be too little difference to measure. At least this would still give us some useful information.

(A project for creation scientists!)

Along this line, some work has recently been done to measure explictly the rate of substitution in mitochondrial DNA. The reference is Parsons, Thomas J., et al., A high observed substitution rate in the human mitochondrial DNA control region, Nature Genetics vol. 15, April 1997, pp. 363-367. The summary follows:

"The rate and pattern of sequence substitutions in the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) control region (CR) is of central importance to studies of human evolution and to forensic identity testing. Here, we report a direct measurement of the intergenerational substitution rate in the human CR. We compared DNA sequences of two CR hypervariable segments from close maternal relatives, from 134 independent mtDNA lineages spanning 327 generational events. Ten subsitutions were observed, resulting in an empirical rate of 1/33 generations, or 2.5/site/Myr. This is roughly twenty-fold higher than estimates derived from phylogenetic analyses. This disparity cannot be accounted for simply by substitutions at mutational hot spots, suggesting additional factors that produce the discrepancy between very near-term and long-term apparent rates of sequence divergence. The data also indicate that extremely rapid segregation of CR sequence variants between generations is common in humans, with a very small mtDNA bottleneck. These results have implications for forensic applications and studies of human evolution." (op. cit. p. 363).

The article also contains this section:
"The observed substitution rate reported here is very high compared to rates inferred from evolutionary studies. A wide range of CR substitution rates have been derived from phylogenetic studies, spanning roughly 0.025-0.26/site/Myr, including confidence intervals. A study yielding one of the faster estimates gave the substitution rate of the CR hypervariable regions as 0.118 +- 0.031/site/Myr. Assuming a generation time of 20 years, this corresponds to ~1/600 generations and an age for the mtDNA MRCA of 133,000 y.a. Thus, our observation of the substitution rate, 2.5/site/Myr, is roughly 20-fold higher than would be predicted from phylogenetic analyses. Using our empirical rate to calibrate the mtDNA molecular clock would result in an age of the mtDNA MRCA of only ~6,500 y.a., clearly incompatible with the known age of modern humans. Even acknowledging that the MRCA of mtDNA may be younger than the MRCA of modern humans, it remains implausible to explain the known geographic distribution of mtDNA sequence variation by human migration that occurred only in the last ~6,500 years.

One biologist explained the young age estimate by assuming essentially that 19/20 of the mutations in this control region are slightly harmful and eventually will be eliminated from the population. This seems unlikely, because this region tends to vary a lot and therefore probably has little function. In addition, the selective disadvantage of these 19/20 of the mutations would have to be about 1/300 or higher in order to avoid producing more of a divergence in sequences than observed in longer than 6000 years. This means that one in 300 individuals would have to die from having mutations in this region. This seems like a high figure for a region that appears to be largely without function. It is interesting that this same biologist feels that 9/10 of the mutations to coding regions of DNA are neutral. This makes the coding regions of DNA less constrained than the apparently functionless control region of the mitochondrial DNA!

---

quote:

---

I checked francophone debates on this very subject. The head of the Amazigh World Congress says that the Berbers did not come Yemen. But, this idea is a popular Amazigh fable.

---

quote:

---

It does not matter what the head of the Amazigh says, this tradition was recorded for many years and I don't believe these people made it up.

---

lol. I doubt there is any hard proof that pre Arab Berber even knew where Yemen was.

This reminds me of your - "Andaman islanders are the Aainu of Kemet argument."
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^^LOL This is just more comic relief from the 'Doctor'.
 

---

Posted by Calypso (Member # 8587) on :
 

quote:

---

Clyde Winters:
You are wrong DNA can not tell us anything except that people are related. It can not tell us when groups originated or expanded to other parts of the world because measuring mutation rates is not an exact science.

---

Dr. Winters, of the disciplines you rely on, viz: linguistics, archaeology, folklore, etc., - genetics is THE most EXACT science among them. It's the one that you really can't toss out.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^^Calypso, it is no use arguing with the guy.

He only supports genetics when he thinks it supports his claims, but when he realizes it doesn't, he goes against it.

The Dr. is a hopless case if I ever saw one, besides Hore of course.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 

quote:

---

It is said that from their home in Yemen, (the Tubba's) used to
raid Ifriqiyah and the Berbers of the Maghrib. Afriqus b. Qays
b. Sayfi, one of their great early kings who lived in the time
of Moses or somewhat earlier, is said to have raided Ifriqiyah.
He caused a great slaughter among the Berbers. He gave them the
name Berbers when he heard their jargon and asked what that
"barbarah" was. This gave them the name which has remained
with them since that time. When he left the Maghrib, he is said to
have cncentrated some Himyar tribes there. They remained there and
mixed with the native population. Their (descendents) are the
Sinhajah and the Kutamah. This led at~Tabari, al~Jujani, al~Masudi,
ibn al~Kalbi, and al~Bayhaqi to make the statement that the
Sinhaja and the Kutamah belong to the Himyar. The Berber
genealogists do not admit this, and they are right.

... All this information is remote from the truth. It is rooted
in baseless and erroneous assumptions. It is more like the
fiction of storytellers. ... There is no way from Yemen to the
Maghrib except via Suez. The distance between the Red Sea and
the Mediterranean is two day's journey or less. It is unlikely
that the distance could be traversed by a great ruler with a
large army unless he controlled the region. This, as a rule, is
impossible. In that region there were the Amalekites and Canaan
in Syria... There is, however, no report that the Tubba's ever
fought against one of these nations ... Furthermore
the distance from the Yemen to the Maghrib is great, and an
army requires much food and fodder. ... Again, it would be a
most unlikely and impossible assumption that such an army could
pass through all those nations without disturbing them, obtaining
its provisions by peaceful negotiation. This shows that all such
information (about Tubba' expeditions to the Maghrib) is silly
or fictitious.

... Assertions to this effect should not be trusted; all such
information should be invstigated and checked with sound norms.
The result will be that it will most beautifully be demolished.


ibn Khaldun
The Muqaddimah
Oran, ~1377
Introduction I,14-16

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shango:
Al Takruri and Dr. Clyde,

I checked francophone debates on this very subject. The head of the Amazigh World Congress says that the Berbers did not come Yemen. But, this idea is a popular Amazigh fable.

Others say the Tuareg came from Yemen. I was wondering about this myself. Because, the word for the veil that the use is very similar to the Amharic word for head-scarf. Also, in a french language book discussing Tuareg origins they have an alternate name for the female slave of Queen Tin Hinan - Tamalek. The Amalekites entered Africa from Yemen.

---

quote:

---

The original North African people probably spoke a semitic language similar to Punic . Some of these earlier North Africans mixed with the Vandals and thus we have the Berber (not including Taureg speakers) speaking population in North Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pax Dahomensis:

quote:

---

The original North African people probably spoke a semitic language similar to Punic . Some of these earlier North Africans mixed with the Vandals and thus we have the Berber (not including Taureg speakers) speaking population in North Africa.

---

Actually Berber languages do share plenty of features with other Afrasan languages that are not reconstructable for Proto-Semitic like the final -m of the 2nd person feminine singular personal pronoun found in Chadic, Berber and Kemetic. This kind of evidence shows that Proto-Berber didn't derive from any Semitic language.

---

^ Agreed, It's also important to keep in mind the geography of this language family....



Note that Berber languages diverge from other Afrisan langauges *west* of the nile....hense their historic association with so called "Libyans".

Any effort to move this language origin to "arabia" where no Berber language exists, and no possible proginator exists.. is thus rendered prepostrous.
 

---

Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
 
Here we go. This is the place where this topic now belongs, al takruri. Stop needlessly spamming other threads.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mystery Solver:

Originally posted by alTakruri:

I provided an abbreviated etymology showing the word Libya,
in current English usage, derives from an ancient Greek term
Libue (supplied earlier by Midogbe and verified by perusing
the Liddell & Scott Greek Lexicon) which in turn derives from
the ancient Egyptian usage Libu/Rebu.

---

quote:

---

al Takruri:

I'm interested in Y O U R etymology of the word Libya
and am asking for it the third time. Please provide it if
you have one. Thank you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

BTW grandstanding is a logical fallacy or demagogue
tactic of appealing to a crowd for verification and
is not evident in the question put to you nor in the comment
noting your avoidance in answering said question.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

Somehow the point of the derivation of the word
Libya came up. I responded with a concise etymology.
It was disputed without any contrary evidence.

Now we just get emotional ranting from the one
who disputed but cannot backup his accusation.

So please enter something relevant to the etymology
of Libya as requested. After all you were the only
one to call its derivation into question. Until you
present a scholarly countering I will continue to ask
for YOUR full etymology of Libya just as YOU have asked
others for the same.
who

---

Good 'ol al takruri, if you weren't so emotional, and juvenile at that, how come you haven't answered to the request above?
 

---

Posted by MyRedCow (Member # 10893) on :
 
I'll answer these questions with translations. Give me time. Promise.

Dr. Winters don't speak so fast.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
The reason this thread was bumped is so that readers
can examine (starting from page 1) an earlier indepth
discussion about "Berber" North Africans. Many good
points and information is here in this entire thread
and is supplemented by its sister thread also bumped up today.
 

---

Posted by MyRedCow (Member # 10893) on :
 
Give me a week or two. It's much much much worse than I thought. The Berbers want it all starting with Ancient Egypt.
 

---

Posted by MyRedCow (Member # 10893) on :
 
Can't Wait! Got Some English. Right Under Your Nose Negroes!!!!

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH!

They are on a roll!!!!

Tazzla.org From California, USA!!!

I WARNED Y'ALL! I WARNES Y'ALL!

Helene Hagan's new book, "The Shining Ones - An Etymological Essay on the Amazigh Roots of Egyptian Civilization

http://www.tazzla.org/personal.html
 

---

Posted by MyRedCow (Member # 10893) on :
 
www.tazzla.org

http://www.amazon.com/Shining-Ones-Etymological-Egyptian-Civilization/dp/1401024122/ref=sr_1_2/104-0859468-9404748?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180317137&sr=8-2

and...

http://www.tazzla.org/amazighfestivaljuly23.html

IMAZIGHEN, FREE HUMAN BEINGS OF NORTH AFRICA

By Helene E. Hagan

I am an anthropologist, a native of Morocco, and a Kabyle of Algeria.

It is with great pleasure that I accepted the invitation to speak today on the topic of Amazigh (Berber) history and culture. I have been in the US for several decades, and have bemoaned long enough the absence of information about the rich and diverse traditions of the North African indigenous culture. Today is a day of celebration, because the day is devoted to this culture here in Santa Cruz.

The very presence of a Berber population in North Africa has given rise to a lot of imaginative hypotheses as to possible origins. Suffice it to say that today, the Yemen, Asiatic, and European origins have been debunked. The continuous presence of our people in Africa from Paleolithic and Neolithic times has been documented.

We have seen over centuries a number of invasions. Despite the occupation of our lands by the Phoenicians, the Romans, the Vandals, the Turks, the Arabs, the French and the Spanish, we are still here, our language is still spoken, our artists are as prolific as ever, and the survival of our culture a wonder.
 

---

Posted by MyRedCow (Member # 10893) on :
 
The Land and the people.

Before I give you a very brief overview of the history of Berbers, I would like to situate the land and the people for you.

The territory where Berbers are found and our language spoken extends from the Oasis of Siwa in Egypt through Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, the Canary islands, Mauritania, the Sahara
Desert, Mali, Niger, and Burkina-Faso.

In the Canary islands, the situation is somewhat different. The Spanish invasion of the Islands brought effective death to the language, where only a few survivals remain in the topography of the ground. But the Guanche culture is rich in petroglyphs and other signs of the earlier Amazigh culture, and the ancestral whistled language of the Guanche is still alive as a means of communication. The Guanche of the Canary Islands appear to be closely related to the Imazighen of Morocco.

Statistically, we are the most numerous in Morocco, where we form the majority of the population, and recently even the Ruler of Morocco has acknowledged that the foundations of the Moroccan culture is Amazigh. The Arabic dialect spoken in Morocco, as a matter of fact, is structurally, grammatically that is, Berber, on which was grafted a mixture of Arabic and Berber vocabularies: the dialectal Arabic of Morocco is closer to Berber that it is to classical Arabic, and few Moroccans indeed understand or write classical Arabic.

Our people include the Siwans, the Libyan Imazighen, Tunisian villages, the several groups of the Aures Mountains and Kabyle Mountains in Algeria, with the Mzab and Tuareg population in the south; in Morocco, the Rif Mountains, (Tarifi spoken) the Atlas Mountains, (Tamazight spoken) and the Souss Valley and Anti-Atlas (Tachlhit spoken, commonly referred to as Chlleuh), then the several confederations of Tuareg people in the Sahara, and sub-Sahara regions who speak the Tamashek. The term “tuareg” like the term “Berber” is an appellation imposed from the outside. In Tamasheq, and in Tamazight, “Amazigh” means “Free Human Being” and Imazighen is the plural form of this name.

Modern genetic studies have come to confirm the socio-linguistic findings in isolating “the Berber Gene” and finding it prevalent in the majority of Moroccans.
 

---

Posted by MyRedCow (Member # 10893) on :
 
The Tifinagh alphabet. The presence of an alphabet linked specifically with the Amazigh culture, the Tifinagh alphabet, is attested from an early age, and even its link to the Phoenician alphabet – which gave rise to the Greek and Roman alphabets of later dates – seems today to be contested. We are finding Tifinagh inscriptions in the Sahara, in regions not occupied by the Phoenicians, and that seem to pre-date the arrival of the Phoenicians on the coast of North Africa. This is a very rich domain of enquiry and scholarly research. Today, a form of neo-Tifinagh is being adopted for writing and publishing, and the role of the Tifinagh – as opposed to the Arab or Latin scripts – in schooling and publication, is being debated. Is this script cumbersome, and adequate? The Royal Academy of Amazigh Studies in Morocco, recently chartered, opted for the Tifinagh script, and has created some stir in doing so....

Prehistory

Rock art, petroglyphs and tumuli (archaic tombs) have yielded a great deal of knowledge about the proto-Berbers, and the beginning of the Berber population of North Africa. The whole region is a vast museum, from the Libyc inscriptions of Tunisia, to the living open air museum of the Tassili and Hoggar regions of southern Algeria, and the human remains and tools found in Morocco of extremely ancient origin testify to the early development of an autochthonous culture in North Africa.

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

The hypothesis of an Oriental origin, or Caucasian origin, have been dismissed, and the presence of The Mechtoid type of individual found in earliest burials have created a solid ground for a new look at the local origin and development of a North African indigenous culture from the western bank of the Nile to the Atlantic ocean. For more detailed information, if you are interested in the pre-history of Berbers, you can consult
The Berbers” by, or if you read French, “Les premiers Berberes” by Malika Hachid. (Show Book. Only a few copies in the US, hand carried by individuals.)

North Africa was once called “Libya” by Egyptians, and Greeks.

Numerous groups of Eastern Libyans are mentioned by Egyptian hieroglyphic texts, as early as pre-dynastic times (i.e. 3,000 BC) on the Palermo or Libyc Stone, which lists some 50 Libyan rulers before the advent of the First Pharaoh of Egypt.

Greek writers indicate that the origins of several of their gods and Egyptian Gods are in North Africa, particularly the Titans (ancestors to the Greek pantheon of gods) : the Garden of the Hesperides and the story of Atlas gave the name of Atlas Mountains to the Moroccan range of mountains, and in eastern Algeria/western Tunisia, it is said that a prosperous kingdom gave rise to numerous deities, that of Tritonis. The Lake and the River of Triton are in North African territories known today as Tunisia and Algeria. (link to Poseidon, Neptune, and the Triton)

I would be derelict in my account if I did not mention that the original Mother of the Gods in Egypt, the Great He-she Deity who gave birth to all the gods, protected the throne of Egypt, and the soul of all departed in their journey in the beyond, the Most ancient and sacred deity NEITH, was born in Libya and is a North African deity. She was Goddess of Life and Death, and the symbolism accompanying her was the arrows of combat, the weaving loom of civilization, and the Bee. Her symbol of the Bee was associated with the Rule of the Pharaons who all bore the title of “Son of the Bee” giving each of each a real or fictive descendance from the original archaic ancestry of North Africa.

For more on this topic, you can consult my book “The Shining Ones, Etymological Essay on the Amazigh Roots of Ancient Egyptian Civilization.” (2001) I have done additional research in the last four years on the all importance of the bee in Kabyle and Atlas Mountains traditions linked to honey, and the bee.
 

---

Posted by MyRedCow (Member # 10893) on :
 
The Phoenicians occupied the coast of North Africa and gave rise to a Punic age, with the growth of trade and the commerce center of Carthage. The Romans made it the granary and breadbasket of the Roman Empire. They established forts and communities throughout the region, and the era of Roman rule recognized a number of Amazigh rulers through their Provinces of Numidia in Algeria and Tunisia, and Mauretania in the west.

With the First Treaty of Barca, in Libya, Arabs set up the precedent of exacting 360 heads of women and children as slaves in payment for war tax, annually. This exaction was repeated throughout the conquest of North Africa, insuring an ample supply of slaves that were shipped to Egypt, Syria and the Peninsula of Arabia.

Arabisation did not take place for a long time, but Islamization was immediate, and accomplished by threat or persuasion. Rebelling chiefs of tribes were mutilated publicly to instill fear in others along with warnings that it was useless to resist the invaders.

The most famous resistance is that of The Kahena, a woman from a group of Jewish Berbers of the Aures mountains who led forces of Berbers with the war cry “Onward, Lions of Judah, onward Lions of Africa.” She was in the end betrayed by a young captured Arab she had adopted, who divulged her whereabouts to the Arab leaders. She was captured, beheaded and her head shipped to Arabia.


It was a time of alliances with Berber groups ruled by Massinissa or Jugurtha, and the quelling of numerous rebellions of the large population of the Gaetules to the south of the Roman Limes.. A number of literary figures of the Latin literature are actually Berbers, Terence, and the first novelist of Africa to ever be published, Apuleius of Madauros. See my article, Apuleius of Madauros, published in 2000 in The Amazigh Voice, a scholarly Journal published in the United States. Unfortunately, time constraints do not allow me to go into much detail, but I have brought with me this article on Apuleius as the first Amazigh Philosopher and novelist, and copies are available on this table.

The Arab Invasions of the 7th to the 11th centuries

Upon the decline of the Roman Empire, invasions of hordes of Vandals reached North Africa. Unlike the Romans who left their marks on the culture of that region, the Vandals have left practically no trace. The region was in disarray when the Arab invasions began, invasions which came wave upon wave until the Beni Hillal in the 11th century.

From the Peninsula of Arabia in mid 7th century, forces began to march north to conquer Syria, Lebanon and Iraq, and West to conquer Egypt, Libya, and North Africa.

The Arabs distinguished between two types of population: there were the people who followed religions of the book (Christians and Jews who were in fairly large number in North Africa) from whom they exacted the jizya, a special tax which guaranteed their safety as long as they submitted to the Arab rule and Islam: those groups were considered “dhimmis” (second class citizens) The rest of the population, Berbers who were polytheists had the choice of converting or death. They were considered “pagan” and Islamic law allowed the killings and enslavement of such people.
 

---

Posted by MyRedCow (Member # 10893) on :
 
The most famous resistance is that of The Kahena, a woman from a group of Jewish Berbers of the Aures mountains who led forces of Berbers with the war cry “Onward, Lions of Judah, onward Lions of Africa.” She was in the end betrayed by a young captured Arab she had adopted, who divulged her whereabouts to the Arab leaders. She was captured, beheaded and her head shipped to Arabia.

One of her sons Gibral Tarik converted together with tens of thousands of Berbers, and they reinforced the ranks of the Arabs that crossed the Detroit of Gibraltar into Spain. Gabriel Tarik left to history the name of Gibraltar.

Slavery and booty was the mark of several centuries of Arab invasion and rule throughout North Africa. In Morocco, however, large Berber kingdoms continue to exist, with Berber dynasties favoring the development and the protection of the arts, giving rise to a rich civilization known as Andalusian, that spanned Morocco and Spain and extended as far as Timbuktu, in Mali.

Modern nations

Today, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, and Morocco are considered Arabic countries of “The Maghreb.” The Maghreb is an Arabic term meaning “The Far West.” It is only proper if it refers to Yemen and the Arabian Peninsula, as the motherland. It is therefore totally inappropriate for North Africa.


[skipping]

In North Africa, Judaism took a hold and numerous tribes converted to Judaism. When Christianity developed in the Mediterranean basin, many Berbers converted to Christianity and gave Christendom a number of important bishops and Saint Augustine, one of the most outstanding Fathers of the Catholic Church. Jewish Berbers and their Moslem neighbors share many aspects of the pre-Islamic marabout - or saint – worship and rituals around maraboutic sacred spots. As a matter of fact, the word “Chleuh” which has come to designate a whole group of Berbers from the Souss Valley is originally a Judeo-Berber term. Shilah, and remote villages of the anti-Atlas such as Tioute or Ifrane of the anti-Atlas testify to Jewish traditions millennia old. The Judeo-Berber culture is a topic of its own, attracting recent scholarship, after almost complete neglect in the past century.
 

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Posted by MyRedCow (Member # 10893) on :
 
http://www.mondeberbere.com/culture/premiersberberes.htm


Malika Hachid in French and Helene Hagan in English are the two Kabyle women who are the current experts on this topic.


 

---

Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by MyRedCow:
Can't Wait! Got Some English. Right Under Your Nose Negroes!!!!

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH!

They are on a roll!!!!

Tazzla.org From California, USA!!!

I WARNED Y'ALL! I WARNES Y'ALL!

Helene Hagan's new book, "The Shining Ones - An Etymological Essay on the Amazigh Roots of Egyptian Civilization

---

quote:

---

Due to the more than 1000 year old suppression of
Amazighity, Mughrebi have a shattered psyche and
as a people don't know if they're Arab, Berber,
Amazigh, or European (Spanish, French, Italian).

---

Personal Identity crisis as instigator of anti Black racism.

So common it should be a formalised psychological 'condition'.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Fanonism?!? [-- for NA's]
 

---

Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
 
Given the exemplified latent and the not-so-latent biases, and as can be seen from tamazight dedicated websites popping up here and there, it is safe to assume that sections of Tamazights have a strong sense of the Tamazight identity, and undoubtedly sections of those who are activists for promoting Tamazight conservatism, also have a vision for some sort of Pan-amazighan cohesion.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Wow, these peoples really got some serious issues. So these are the folks that have self proclaimed 'Berber pride' yet deny Berber identity to other Berber speakers just because they are black. Has anything similar happened to or is happening with Semitic speakers where Semitic speakers of Arabia deny the Semitic identity of those in Ethiopia??

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:

Personal Identity crisis as instigator of anti Black racism.

So common it should be a formalised psychological 'condition'.

---

LOL Yes, a pyschological phenomenon we are all to familiar with via the likes of persons such as AMR and Jaimie.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
For whatever it's worth, my personal experience is
that the indigenee Muslims in Libya, Algeria, and
Morocco have little if any problem seeing their
ages old relationship to the darker and "non-
berber" Africans south of them (but note that
economic immigration problems are breeding
"anti-black" de facto discrimination in Libya).

The fervent denial of any kind of relationship
at all to "Black Africa/Africans" is a product
of the new militant Amazigh activists and the
invention of such 21st century identity vs the
historic Amazigh identity known in writing since
the 12th century in ibn Khaldun.

And yes, while I meet "Arab" and "Berber" Mughrebi,
who themselves are quite light, tell of dark or black
relatives, the dark and/or curly/low wavy/bushy/
kinky/nappy
haired North Africans are more disinclined to admit the same.

The reasons are due to the lower esteem of individuals
bearing those characteristics as being of slave/Gnawa
descent (more of a country cousin than a racist type
thing in NA societies.)
 

---

Posted by Neith-Athena (Member # 10040) on :
 
If the original inhabitants of North Africa were Black, then how there any non-Black person claim that they are native and the Black elements in their modern populations are the descendants of slaves?
 

---

Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Neith-Athena:
If the original inhabitants of North Africa were Black, then how there any non-Black person claim that they are native and the Black elements in their modern populations are the descendants of slaves?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Fanonism?!? [-- for NA's]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Neith-Athena:
If the original inhabitants of North Africa were Black, then how there any non-Black person claim that they are native and the Black elements in their modern populations are the descendants of slaves?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

...1530 kinship noted between Hebrew Arabic and Aramaic
1702 Ludolf notes affinity of Ethiosemitic with Mizrahh languages
1887 Muller links Egyptian Semitic Berber Cushitic and Hausa
1963 Greenberg introduces Afroasiatic to replace Hamito-Semitic name
---- Diankoff coins Afrasian a short form for Afroasiatic
---- Ehret proposed Afrasan to take Asia out of superphylum's name...

---

And there you have it ladies and gentle men. A short chronology of the invetion of the "Afroasian" category. All based on "suggestions" by Europeans without a lick of African in them.

The more I study Obenga's African language clssicfication works the more I am enlightened by the pin-point targets of his conclusions versus questionable, non-african classicfications by Greenberg and the rest of them.

If Ludolf, Muller, Greenberg, Diankoff and Ehret suggested theories are good enough to build on so is Obenga's.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
The Meshwesh are about the foreignest looking of
all the "ancient Libyans." There's little doubt
they spoke taMAZIGHt since their ethnonym is in
fact a variant of the root M-Z-GH/R.

The Meshwesh are the furthest west of the Ament.x3st
peoples appearing in the records of the ancient Egyptians.
Their home was west of the eastern shores of the Gulf
of Syrte.

Mediterranean seafarers (as exemplified by the Shekelesh
who fled their northeast Aegean home and settled Sicily)
in all probability regularly visited the northeast shore
of the Syrtis (Tunisia and western Libya). Perhaps, women
were among other commercial items they exchanged there
with the inhabitants.

Maybe that's how the Meshwesh got so "funny looking" and
lighter skinned?

I'm really interested in anybody's ideas on how so many
native ancient Libyans came to be so creamy colored at
such a distant point in the past (and the BG4:5 s30 in
Seti I's tomb is too contemporaneous to the final fall
of Troy to imagine that the various Sea Peoples womenfolk
were the first to cream the North African's coffee).
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
It is an unfortunate fact that the term "Berber"
has been and continues to be used to erase the
fact of continental African biological relations.

quote:

---

The name MZGH was undoubtedly employed
as a generic term by the ancestors of
the modern Imushagh and their various
branches, and it is they who must be
considered as the modern representatives
of the old Hamitic stock which was
invaded by the brachycephals and
xanthocroids, and which in some cases has
been modified to take on a negroid form.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
It is an unfortunate fact that the term "Berber"
has been and continues to be used to erase the
fact of continental African biological relations.

quote:

---

The name MZGH was undoubtedly employed
as a generic term by the ancestors of
the modern Imushagh and their various
branches, and it is they who must be
considered as the modern representatives
of the old Hamitic stock which was
invaded by the brachycephals and
xanthocroids, and which in some cases has
been modified to take on a negroid form.

---

True, modern ethnographers won't use this type of
early 20th century speech, yet we find these ideas
still current, especially so among militant Amazigh activists.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Neith-Athena:
If the original inhabitants of North Africa were Black, then how dare any non-Black person claim that they are native and the Black elements in their modern populations are the descendants of slaves?

---

Skin color is not race.

Skin color is not lineage.

Senegalese are native Africans and they are Francophones, but language is not race, langauge is not lineage.

Until this lesson is learned, history...not just African, but world history, can never be understood.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Midogbe

Again, and hate to put you through such paces, but
if you have the time and it doesn't impose on you,
please, could you scan and post the map relating to Berber in

Joseph O. Vogel (ed)
Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa
London AltaMira 1997
the article by
Kay Williamson
Western African Languages in Historical Perspective

It should go in the TAMAZIGHT - a branch of the Afrisan family of African languages thread

---

 

---

Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
 
Again, I wonder if those two names are actually related. I've also read that Meshwesh were also called "Me" in Egyptian texts. Does anyone know if this abbreviation (?) has been noted in other usages of M-Z-GH as well?

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
The Meshwesh are about the foreignest looking of
all the "ancient Libyans." There's little doubt
they spoke taMAZIGHt since their ethnonym is in
fact a variant of the root M-Z-GH/R.

The Meshwesh are the furthest west of the Ament.x3st
peoples appearing in the records of the ancient Egyptians.
Their home was west of the eastern shores of the Gulf
of Syrte.

Mediterranean seafarers (as exemplified by the Shekelesh
who fled their northeast Aegean home and settled Sicily)
in all probability regularly visited the northeast shore
of the Syrtis (Tunisia and western Libya). Perhaps, women
were among other commercial items they exchanged there
with the inhabitants.

Maybe that's how the Meshwesh got so "funny looking" and
lighter skinned?

I'm really interested in anybody's ideas on how so many
native ancient Libyans came to be so creamy colored at
such a distant point in the past (and the BG4:5 s30 in
Seti I's tomb is too contemporaneous to the final fall
of Troy to imagine that the various Sea Peoples womenfolk
were the first to cream the North African's coffee).

---

quote:

---

If the original inhabitants of North Africa were Black, then how there any non-Black person claim that they are native and the Black elements in their modern populations are the descendants of slaves

---

quote:

---

Excerpt from 'When We Ruled' by Robin Walker


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthropologist have studied skeletons from the Carthaginian cemeteries . Professor Eugene Pittard, then at the University of Geneva, reported that: " Other bones discovered in Punic Carthage, and housed in the Lavigerie Museum, come from personages found in special sarcophagi and probably belonging to the Carthaginian elite. Almost all the skulls are dolichocephalic ." Futhermore, the sarcophagus of the highly venerated Priestess of Tanit , "the most ornate" and "the most artistic yet found," is also housed in the Lavigerie Museum. Pittard says " The woman buried there had Negro features. She belonged to the African race !" Professor Stephane Gsell was the author of the voluminous Histoire Ancienne de l'Afrique du Nord. Also based on anthropological studies conducted on Carthaginian skeletons, he declared that: " The so called Semitic type, characterised by the long, perfectly oval face, the thin aquiline nose and the lengthened cranium, enlarged over the nape of the neck has not [yet] been found in Carthage ".

---

quote:

---

Kra Isallen : In an official statement King Mohamed VI announced the decision of IRCAM (French acronym for Royal Institute for Amazigh Culture) to adopt the Neo-Tifinagh alphabet as the only writing system for Tamazight in Morocco. As an Amazigh linguist, what is your reaction to this decision ?

Salem Chaker : I consider that it is at the same time a hasty and badly founded decision, and certainly a dangerous one for the future and development of Tamazight in Morocco.
It also shows very clearly the confusion among those who are in charge of the Amazigh language in the North African countries . While no serious scientific debate on the question of the alphabet to use ever took place in Morocco or Algeria, the political leaders decided on an option that is totally disconnected from the current practice, both in Morocco and in the rest of the Amazigh world. Currently, as you know, the most functional Amazigh writing system is Latin character based. In Morocco, it is seconded by the Arabic character based alphabet

---

quote:

---

The version currently in use, which is prevalent in certain Amazigh activist circles, is purely and simply aberrant since it is actually a phonetic notation of Kabyl based on Tifinagh characters. This was developed in 1970 in the Berber Academy circles by amateurs full of goodwill, but nonetheless without any linguistic training. The result is that the alphabet which is currently presented to us as the Amazigh alphabet is not an authentic one. It was strongly altered in order to transcribe the phonetic characteristics of Kabyl. It cannot thus be an Amazigh-wide alphabet .

---

quote:

---

In Morocco, however, where Tamazight writing is less extensive and unstable, and where competition between the Arabic and Latin based scripts exists, the decision to favor the Tifinagh script could have serious negative consequences. It may slow down or block the process of dissemination of the Amazigh written expression

---

quote:

---

Skin color is not race.

Skin color is not lineage.

Senegalese are native Africans and they are Francophones, but language is not race, langauge is not lineage.

Until this lesson is learned, history...not just African, but world history, can never be understood.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---

This is so funny to see rasol avoiding these simple questions.

Neith-Athena wrote:

quote:

---

So who were the Native North Africans? Who were the original Berber speakers, if not people from East Africa? What are the most ancient lineages amongst modern Berbers?

---

Go ahead rasol answer the questions

Do not use English as a example because English is a European language that was forced on the speakers.
Do not use French or other European languages because we know these languages were forced upon the modern day Afrikan speakers of these languages.
Please use a AFRIKAN language in your example next time because the subject is about a AFRIKAN language.

Hotep
 

---

Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 

quote:

---

So who were the Native North Africans? Who were the original Berber speakers, if not people from East Africa? What are the most ancient lineages amongst modern Berbers?

---

quote:

---

Go ahead rasol answer the questions

---

quote:

---

Do not use English as a example because English is a European language that was forced on the speakers.

---

quote:

---

Please use a AFRIKAN language in your example next time because the subject is about a AFRIKAN language

---

Berber langauges are African languages, so I'm not sure what you mean?
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Thanks Midogbe. Now that the referenced map is here
I'm reposting snippets of the intial post of this thread.


In a map accompanying his article Western African Languages
in Historical Perspective (seen below), Kay Williamson sees
proto-Tamazight (the first "Berber" language)

1. originating in the Gharb Darfur region of Sudan 8kya
2. spreading from there to
_a. the Dongola Reach/3rd cataract Tmhhw and to
_b. the Air-Hoggar region
3. before proto-North Tamazight developed
4. and went to
_a. the Maghreb and then eastward to
__* Rebu/Libou and
5. proto-Zenaga left Air/Adrar des Ifores for
_a. the Tagant (southern Mauritania).





Here are some other mappings of the language
================================
SIDEBAR

NOTE: in comparison to the above map
Taureg corresponds to Air-Hoggar Air/Adrar regions,
Atlas/Zenati/Nefusi corresponds to the Maghreb,
Siwi roughly corresponds to Rebu/Libou, and
Zenaga corresponds to the Tagant.

=================================


Neolithic and early historic "Berber" finds, 250 or more miles south of the
Mediterranean, could well have been left by black or coloured peoples who
spoke "Berber" before it reached the Maghreb. In other words the
Leukaethiopes
Melanogaetuli
Nigritae
Western Ethiopians (Hesperii)
Pharusii
Icthyophagi Aethiopes
etc.,
and their modern descendents still there in the same vast "Saharan" area
are just as much "Berber" as anybody else, and if Williamson (based on Behrens)
is right, even more so as they are remnants of the proto-North Tamazight speakers
or so at least the Haritin donating to genetic tests seem to infer.
 

---

Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 
^ Very good.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
The other map I wanted in my last post but couldn't do it within the timeout period.

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
It's also important to keep in mind the geography of this language family....



Note that Berber languages diverge from other Afrisan langauges *west* of the nile....hense their historic association with so called "Libyans".

Any effort to move this language origin to "arabia" where no Berber language exists, and no possible proginator exists.. is thus rendered prepostrous.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:


Neolithic and early historic "Berber" finds, 250 or more miles south of the
Mediterranean, could well have been left by black or coloured peoples who
spoke "Berber" before it reached the Maghreb. In other words the
Leukaethiopes
Melanogaetuli
Nigritae
Western Ethiopians (Hesperii)
Pharusii
Icthyophagi Aethiopes
etc.,
and their modern descendents still there in the same vast "Saharan" area
are just as much "Berber" as anybody else, and if Williamson (based on Behrens)
is right, even more so as they are remnants of the proto-North Tamazight speakers
or so at least the Haritin donating to genetic tests seem to infer. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Zenaga (autonym Tuḍḍungiyya) is a Berber language spoken by some 200 to 300 people (Ethnologue estimate, 1998) between Mederdra and the Atlantic coast in southwestern Mauritania. The language shares its basic structure with other Berber languages, but specific details are quite different; in fact, it is probably the most divergent surviving Berber language, with a significantly different sound system made even more distant by sound changes such as l > dj and kh > k, as well as a difficult to explain profusion of glottal stops. The name 'Zenaga' comes from that of a much bigger ancient Berber tribe, known to medieval Arab geographers as the Senhaja; the name "Senegal" is thought to derive from "Zenaga" as well.

Zenaga was once spoken throughout much of Mauritania, but fell into decline when its speakers were defeated by the Maqil Arabs in the Char Bouba war of the 17th century. After this war, they were forbidden to bear arms, and variously became either specialists in Islamic religious scholarship or servants to more powerful tribes. It was among the former, more prestigious group that Zenaga survived longest.

---

quote:

---

So who were the Native North Africans? Who were the original Berber speakers, if not people from East Africa? What are the most ancient lineages amongst modern Berbers?

---

quote:

---

Sorry I thought the question was rhetorical.


* Berber originates in East Africa and spread to NorthWest Africa.

** The signature Berber lineage is E3b2, which likely derived from E3b in either Sudan/Horn or Lower Egypt.

If you feel that answer isn't clear enough, let me know.

Thanks.

---

rasol can you please note the fact that ALL AFRIKANS ORIGINATED IN EAST AFRIKA NOT just groups who today are falsely labeled as 'Berbers'

Let's repeat the other question WHICH GROUP WERE THE ORIGINAL SPEAKERS OF THE LANGUAGE GROUP FALSELY LABELED AS 'BERBER'?

rasol the question was quite clear, WHAT is the oldest Lineage for so called 'Berber' speakers?
LET'S REPEAT WHICH GROUP OF SO CALLED 'BERBER' SPEAKERS HAVE THE OLDEST LINEAGE?

NOT the signature 'Berber' lineage, for the record E3b2 CANNOT be a signature lineage because older human bones have been found in North Afrika, that pre-dates your 'signature berber lineage'
Last time I checked the bones found buried in North Afrika have not been found to only carry E3b2.

rasol can you please answer the questions

Hotep
 

---

Posted by MyRedCow (Member # 10893) on :
 
Migdobe and Doug M,

The Sahelians did not always call themselves Black. The mentality of the people back then and over there was different tham from our modern day.
The Sahelians who were racially mixed were called red. The paleskinned norhterners were called white and the darkest pagans were called black.

The Ethiopian Amhara don't call themselves Black. They are "red". They became Black in the modern era. The Bantu slaves of the Amhara were called "black".

The Znaga and the Beni Hassan often mixed with African neighboring tribes anyway. They are really part Soninke and Peul. And the Sahelians are part Berber.
Americas.
 

---

Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
 
^^
I hear you but *a-kli was etymologically related to work and is not an etymological reference to skin complexion. The first idea I get from this Proto Berber root is that it seems to show that "negroes" were already considered as slaves at the time when Proto Berber was spoken & weren't considered as Imazighen or "free men" at this time already. It would be interesting to get some information about the exact meaning of Akli in the various Berber dialects.
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by MyRedCow:
Migdobe and Doug M,

The Sahelians did not always call themselves Black. The mentality of the people back then and over there was different tham from our modern day.
The Sahelians who were racially mixed were called red. The paleskinned norhterners were called white and the darkest pagans were called black.

The Ethiopian Amhara don't call themselves Black. They are "red". They became Black in the modern era. The Bantu slaves of the Amhara were called "black".

The Znaga and the Beni Hassan often mixed with African neighboring tribes anyway. They are really part Soninke and Peul. And the Sahelians are part Berber.
Americas.

---

MyRedCow, what are you talking about? Berber is a language group not a skin color. The origin of the berber language was among BLACK Africans and had nothing to do with what they called themselves, because we DONT know what the original Berber speakers called themselves or their language. From this ROOT berber language from East Africa many different variations have come about in many parts of Northern Africa, but NONE of them have ANYTHING to do with skin color. Berber, therefore, is a LANGUAGE, not a skin color. Likewise the SPREAD of the ORIGINAL Berber speakers and language DOES NOT coincide or have ANYTHING to do with different POPULATIONS with DIFFERENT skin colors. The various skin colors and various populations that have come under the MODERN umbrella of "Berbers" have histories and lineages from various migrations and intrusions in to Africa over the last 5000 years, but DID NOT bring the Berber LANGUAGE into Africa. So whatever TERMS exist in Berber for SLAVE or NOT SLAVE and BLACK and NOT BLACK is irrelevant to tracing the ORIGINAL populations who arose in East Africa and carried the INITIAL Berber ROOT TONGUE. And as far as SLAVERY goes, BLACK berber muslims were ALSO enslaving OTHER black NON MUSLIMS as much as OTHER black Africans ALSO participated in the ENSLAVEMENT of blacks, as much as WHITES were enslaved by BLACKS and OTHER WHITES.

Likewise Ahmara ETHIOPIANS and their ANCESTORS IN AFRICA have ALWAYS BEEN BLACK as BLACK is a skin color NOT A WORD. You do not trace the ancestry of people SOLELY through linguistics and there is NO linguistics that changes the fact that the ANCESTRAL populations were ALL BLACK, just like the ANCESTRAL populations that populated the SAHEL were ALL BLACK as well. Any NON BLACK populations that came into the Sahel and other parts of Northern Africa WERE NOT indigenous to Africa and DID NOT bring culture and language TO AFRICA. These MIGRANTS MORE OFTEN ADOPTED African culture than CREATED IT. Likewise Soninke and Peul ARE SAHELIANS and it is RIDICULOUS to USE A LANGUAGE a s the DETERMINING factor of ANCESTRAL LINEAGE. The PEUL, SONINKE and others are ALL DESCENDED from the ORIGINAL BLACK AFRICAN populations of the Sahel, whether they spoke a "Berber" language or not.
 

---

Posted by MyRedCow (Member # 10893) on :
 
Doug M,

For me Black is a word and not a skin color. The Amhara and Tigray do not call themselves black in private. They have various words for skin colors.

The Khoisan pygmies do not call themselves black. Some people in Africa are jet black. But, not all. The blackest people tend to be Sudanic people from the Sudan to Senegal. They are also the tallest.

The Rock Art in South Africa and the Sahara often shows people painted in red ocre. Melanin colors thee skin with red and yellow pigments which when are found in the highest amounts cause blackness.

I don't know what the proto-Amazigh called themselves. I believe the modern Tuareg are the closest people living today who are their offspring and they are all Africans.



Southern Africa



Sahara






Kemet

RED OCHRE!

The proto-Berber probably broke off from east African Afroasiatic and was spoken by Y chromosome E3b guys. I have no problem with that.
 

---

Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 
^ Black is word referencing a color.

Mdw ntr [Ancient Egyptian] is a language.

In mdw ntr the word for Black is Kemet.

The "Ancient Egyptians" did call themselves Blacks.

quote:

---

The Khoisan pygmies do not call themselves black

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hotep2u:
[QB] Greetings:

Neith-Athena wrote:
[QUOTE] So who were the Native North Africans? Who were the original Berber speakers, if not people from East Africa? What are the most ancient lineages amongst modern Berbers?

---

quote:

---

Sorry I thought the question was rhetorical.


* Berber originates in East Africa and spread to NorthWest Africa.

** The signature Berber lineage is E3b2, which likely derived from E3b in either Sudan/Horn or Lower Egypt.

If you feel that answer isn't clear enough, let me know.

Thanks.

---

quote:

---

rasol can you please note the fact that ALL AFRIKANS ORIGINATED IN EAST AFRIKA NOT just groups who today are falsely labeled as 'Berbers'.

---

quote:

---

Let's repeat the other question WHICH GROUP WERE THE ORIGINAL SPEAKERS OF THE LANGUAGE GROUP FALSELY LABELED AS 'BERBER'?

---

quote:

---

Melanin colors thee skin with red and yellow pigments which when are found in the highest amounts cause blackness.

---

quote:

---

Eumelanin is found in hair and skin, and colors hair grey, black, yellow, and brown. Eumelanin is found in hair and skin, and colors hair grey, black, yellow, and brown. In humans, it is more abundant in peoples with dark skin. There are 2 different types of eumelanin, which are distinguished from each other by their pattern of polymer bonds. The 2 types are black eumelanin and brown eumelanin . A small amount of black eumelanin in the absence of other pigments causes grey hair. A small amount of brown eumelanin in the absence of other pigments causes yellow (blond) color hair. , which are distinguished from each other by their pattern of polymer bonds. The 2 types are black eumelanin and brown eumelanin. A small amount of black eumelanin in the absence of other pigments causes grey hair. A small amount of brown eumelanin in the absence of other pigments causes yellow (blond) color hair.

---

quote:

---

Melanin colors thee skin with red and yellow pigments which when are found in the highest amounts cause blackness.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:

Khoisan do call themselves Blacks.

---

Would make sense...



A San bushman with Dr. Spencer Wells Photograph: National Geographic Society: Courtesy finfacts.com
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
More notes on the language and Script:

quote:

---

History
Pre-Roman

Sometime in the fifth century BC or so (the earliest attested dated inscription is from 138 BC, but the letter forms appear to have developed from early Phoenician rather than the cursive Punic then current, and some archeologists argue for a date as early as 500 BC for the Azib n'Ikkis inscription in Morocco), the Numidians and other early Berber kingdoms developed a script now known as Numidic, or Old Libyan, or Libyco-Berber. This script, like ancient Greek, was clearly based on early Phoenician, which appears to have contributed the characters for b, g, h, z, y, l, n, q, r, sh, and t at least (see the table here); but many innovations were required for sounds not found in Phoenician, and these - as well as the overall style of the script - seem to have been influenced by earlier traditions of geometric rock art and possibly cattle marking. Since this script appears to have been used mainly on stone inscriptions, its forms were geometric for easier carving (like Runic or monumental Latin). Like Phoenician, appropriately for an Afro-Asiatic language, it did not transcribe vowels (not even initial ones); it was usually written top-down or right-to-left, but bottom-to-top is not uncommon. It is attested from innumerable tombstones and a few Numidian governmental inscriptions (mainly in Dougga, then called tbgg, in Tunisia, as with the famous bilingual), from the Canary Islands all the way to Libya, although the letter forms varied to some extent across this vast range, falling into two main groups, eastern and western. This script continued in occasional use up to the late Roman Empire, after which it is not attested anywhere north of the Atlas Mountains. In late times, there were extremely sporadic tombstones in Libyan using the Latin script, as with Neo-Punic. If you speak Arabic, you may be interested in a more detailed examination of it at my site; in French, Monde Berbere offers a lot of information.


Tamasheq

Even as it disappeared in the North, however, the Tuareg preserved - and continue to preserve - a simplified variant of it as a living tradition, used for letters or graffiti or occasionally poetry. They call this script Tifinagh, or in some areas Shifinagh, and, despite government decisions in Niger and Mali to replace it with the Latin alphabet, it is still in wide use today. The details of its evolution from Libyan are unknown, but some ancient graffiti from the Sahara which use letters that have not survived in modern Tifinagh allow some degree of historical connection; inscriptions in the same intermediate alphabet (same according to Delgado; undoubtedly Tifinagh in any case) have been found in the Canaries, which may have preserved the tradition independently on Hierro until the arrival of the Spanish. While letter writing is primarily done in Tifinagh, such manuscripts as have survived the colonial era were in Arabic "Ajami" script (see Université Abdou Moumouni, Niamey (Niger) or Saharan Studies Association Nov 2000 for 16th-century examples from Timbuktu); more recently, books have very occasionally been published in Latin or Tifinagh. Efforts have been made to put forward reformed, vocalised (in various ways), left-to-right versions of this script as well, from 19th-century missionaries to the present, but its users seem to have shown little or no interest; indeed, so far it has not even been standardized, and varies significantly from region to region. As the Tuareg are one of the most literate peoples of the area, this script has sporadically been used for noting other normally unwritten West African languages, such as Tagdal Songhai and Fulfulde.) Further details on this script can be seen at this site; fonts are downloadable at Qui resiste. A real-life example, a menu in fact, can be seen here - or even better, a whole book on camel disorders; also, Hanoteau's Grammaire de la Langue Tamashek and Motylinksi's Dictionnaire Touareg (which use this script copiously) is now available from the Bibliothèque Nationale Française. Rather charmingly, one of the few Tuareg printed works in this script is a Tamasheq translation of Le Petit Prince.

It is interesting to note that this script is more widely used by women than men; figures suggest 2/3 of Tuareg women are literate in it, in contrast to 1/3 of men, who are more often literate in the Arabic script, or even in the Arabic language instead, to deal with the outside world. While the educational systems of Niger and Mali (since 1997) include some limited Latin-alphabet native-language programs, which have increased in recent years, in the short term they seem unlikely to reach a scale sufficient to threaten the dominance of Tifinagh on the ground, particularly since most education focuses on French; indeed, some of the literacy programs rather sensibly avoid reinventing the wheel and use Tifinagh!

Islamic Era
Arabic script

After a hiatus in records during the Vandal and Byzantine periods, Berber languages in the North began to be written again as early as 1200 years ago, when the anti-Caliphal Ibadhite sect of Islam established a state in the central Maghreb; a lost work by al-Wighwi (d. 811) which "its author put in the Berber tongue, that the Berbers might transmit it" is mentioned by ad-Darjini, and several chroniclers mention twelve books of religious poetry by Abu Sahl al-Farisi in the 9th century (lost in a medieval war, according to ash-Shammakhi); several other early Ibadhi Berber-language works are alluded to by Muhammed u Madi, but the earliest surviving one seems to be a translation of Mudawanat Ibn Ghanim, now in Italy. Additionally, the Ibadhi history Riwayat ul-Ashyakh (about 1300) contains copious phrases in Berber; and the `Aqidat at-Tawhid, though now preserved only in Arabic,was translated from Berber. Berber writing received a boost further west about a thousand years ago with the Almoravids, whose founding texts - the sermons of Ibn Tumart - had originally been written in Berber; though most of their kingdom's writings have disappeared, surviving works include the 2500-word Berber-Arabic dictionary Kitab ul-Asma كتاب الأسماء compiled by Ibn Tunart (no relation) in 1146, and the frustratingly short "Leiden fragment", a 16-line page from an otherwise lost 14th-century work dealing with ethics in the Berber language, both in a medieval Tachelhit dialect, as well as isolated sentences and plant name lists in other works. Nico van den Boogert argues that these works - unlike most later ones outside the Moroccan Souss - use a fairly standardized orthography, implying a whole Berber educational system; he speculates, surprisingly, that this system was based in Andalusia, where until the Reconquista a substantial Berber-speaking population was found. Looking at the situation, one might have speculated that a Berber literary renaissance was about to emerge; instead, perhaps due to the turmoil coming from the Spanish to the north and the Banu Hilal to the east, the early medieval tradition virtually disappeared, although it left its traces in the later Tachelhit literature.

For the later medieval period, we have sporadic evidence of Berber writing almost everywhere the language was spoken; however, the Moroccan Souss stands out in this regard. There, a fairly large and continuous textual tradition, consisting particularly of religious poetry and translations but also including hadith and dictionaries, is attested starting as early as 1580; the most important author of this tradition was the prolific poet Muhammad Awzal (1680-1749). In the Souss a highly standardized orthography with several new letters was used, contrasting with the more haphazard spellings of other Berber areas. Nico van den Boogert, again, has published some fascinating investigations into these, along with a complete text of Awzal's Bahr ad-Dumu`.

Elsewhere, while not as strongly as in the Sous, Berber writing continued. In Kabylie, the early nationalist and religious leader Cheikh Mokrane (about 1870) wrote extensively in this script; it was also used for some correspondence, and in the colonial period extensive collections of poetry and fables used it, such as Poésie Populaire de la Kabylie de Jurjura; in addition, especially near Bejaia, there existed translations of the traditional Arabic textbooks of the zaouias, from religious poetry to mathematics (see EDB.) In Libya, the Ibadhis of Jabal Nafusa (as probably in the Mzab and Djerba) continued to write in Berber, as most notably attested by the handwritten geographical work Ighasra d Ibriden di Drar n Infusen of Brahim u Sliman Ashemmakhi in 1899, now being republished by Tawalt; they also mention a manuscript in the Ghat dialect from the same period. Apparently it was also used occasionally for a few poems in Middle Atlas Tamazight and in Tarifit; however, the American anthropologist Carleton Coon noted (in 1931!) that most of the Berber books in Morocco even as far north as the Rif were in Tachelhit. Knappert alludes to Zenaga writing, which, in light of Mauritania's extensive zaouia system, would seem probable on the face of it; however, I have only come across it in French linguistic works. Throughout this period, the zaouia network - providing a modicum of education to anyone interested, which most children took advantage of at least briefly - kept a limited degree of literacy up throughout North Africa, as it still does in parts of West Africa.

In modern times, the Arabic script has fallen into near-complete disuse in Algeria - even Mzabi works use Latin - but - particularly in a modernized orthography proposed by Muhammad Chafik - is still much used in Morocco and Libya, especially for Tashelhit, despite competition from Neo-Tifinagh; in Morocco, several books in recent decades have used it, including some fiction, a dictionary, and most notably the recent first full translation of the Quran into Berber, published 2003, a powerful influence in itself. Even in Algeria it was officially adopted for pedagogical purposes in 1996, although that project was abandoned soon after.

On the Internet, the Arabic script has as far as I know been used extensively by only two Berber language webpages: Tarifit Project and Tawalt. This is not surprising in retrospect; most North African computers tend to be equipped with French operating systems, and, while no language other than English has a really significant online presence, French has far more webpages and software than Arabic.

Just for completeness' sake, it should also be added that Jewish Berbers occasionally wrote Berber in Hebrew characters; see Judeo-Berber.

---

quote:

---

THE BERBER LITERARY TRADITION OF THE SOUS
with an edition and translation of 'The Ocean of Tears' by Muhammad Awzal

Nico van den Boogert


This book is the first exploration of the Tashelhit Berber manuscript texts produced in the Sous (South Morocco). The first part describes the region and its traditional schooling system and offers a general description of the manuscript texts, their form, contents, orthography (fully vocalised Maghribi-Arabic script) and language. It presents a survey of all manuscript texts known to date, the oldest of which was written around 1580 AD. The second part describes the life and work of Muhammad Awzal (�1680-1749 AD), the most important Berber author of the period, and contains a list of all Awzal manuscripts. Awzal's lexicon and language are explored separately. An edition in transcription of Awzal's versified exhortation Bahr ad-dumu' "Ocean of Tears", with English translation, notes and glossary is also included.

Nederlands Instituut voor het Nabije Oosten (Witte Singel 25, Postbus 9515, 2300 RA Leiden, Netherlands, fax : 071-5272038), publication of De Goeje Fund (n� XXVII), Leiden, 1997, 456 pages, Hfl 150. ISBN 90-625-8971-5

Dr. N. van den Boogert started his four years post-doctoral period on the first of November 1994. His PhD thesis Muhammad Awzal and the Berber Literary Tradition of the Sous (343 pages) was defended on 1 March 1995. Van den Boogert, educated as an arabist, berberologist and codicologist, specialises in the Sous Berber literary tradition as found in manuscripts.
In the framework of the post-doctoral project Van den Boogert hopes to make an anthology of texts with translations of works fromthis tradition. He continues, in a sense, what was started by a Dutch scholar, B. Stricker who, in 1960, made the first and only scientifically adequate publication of a Sous Berber manusript text, written in Arabic characters. Sous Berber manuscripts can be found in various public and private collections, the most important being the Berber manuscript collection of the Leiden University Library and the one in the Fonds Roux at Aix-en-Provence.

---

From: http://web.archive.org/web/20040828002245/www.souss.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=517&forum=3

The language of the Sous region is Tashelhiyt (Tachelhit), which is the largest berber language and derives from the language of the Almoravid and Al Andalus before the Banu Hilal invasions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tashelhiyt_language


Berber language map (which only extends as far east as Siwa nominally, therefore omitting the historic proto berber historical language connections further east. This is why many consider it separate from other African languages originating IN Africa. But that confusion should be cleared up by now.)


 

---

Posted by Yonis (Member # 7684) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by MyRedCow:

The Bantu slaves of the Amhara were called "black".

---

quote:

---

Doug M:
Any NON BLACK populations that came into the Sahel and other parts of Northern Africa WERE NOT indigenous to Africa and DID NOT bring culture and language TO AFRICA.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yonis:

quote:

---

Originally posted by MyRedCow:

The Bantu slaves of the Amhara were called "black".

---

There are no bantu people in ethiopia, southern somalia/northern kenya is where the bantu people stopped in their migration.

quote:

---

Doug M:
Any NON BLACK populations that came into the Sahel and other parts of Northern Africa WERE NOT indigenous to Africa and DID NOT bring culture and language TO AFRICA.

---

How do you know this for certain that other people outside africa did not bring some part of culture and language? Where people meet they always trade ideas and influence each other, so you can't say for sure that "NON BLACK...DID NOT bring language and culture TO AFRICA". This would make sense if it was an isolated place , but north africa is one of the few regions in the world where there have been alot of movement and trade for long time, so your statement above doesn't sound realistic.

---

quote:

---

That isn't the original question. Its a new question designed to have no answer because the question makes no sense.

By definition the group of original speakers of Berber - are the original Berber.

Are you asking where they originated?

We've answered that -> East Africa.

Are you asking what there skin color was?

We've answered that, they were most likely dark skinned like all other native Africans such as the Siwa.

So why are you repeating the questions, but in capital letters and with such convoluted language as to make it difficult to figure out what you're actually asking?

My conclusion is that you are desparate to appear to be asking a question that is not being answered. That's easy to do.

Anyone can ask a nonsensical question.

---

rasol seems to be avoiding simple questions I wonder why?

Neith-Athena wrote:

quote:

---

So who were the Native North Africans? Who were the original Berber speakers, if not people from East Africa? What are the most ancient lineages amongst modern Berbers?

---

quote:

---

Subclassification of the Berber languages is made difficult by their mutual closeness; Maarten Kossmann (1999) describes it as two dialect continua, Northern Berber and Tuareg, and a few peripheral languages , spoken in isolated pockets largely surrounded by Arabic, that fall outside these continua, namely Zenaga and the Libyan and Egyptian varieties

---

rasol Subclassification of 'Berber' is possible, seeing that it's mostly a TWO DIALECT CONTINUA
Northern Tama(Z)ight and Tamasheq.

Lets ask now which group is older? or which group came first Northern Tamazight or Tamasheq?

What are the most ancient lineages found amongst Northern Tamazight speakers versus Tamasheq speakers?

rasol seems to running fast and furious from the lineage question

Hotep
 

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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hotep2u:
Greetings:

rasol wrote:

quote:

---

That isn't the original question. Its a new question designed to have no answer because the question makes no sense.

By definition the group of original speakers of Berber - are the original Berber.

Are you asking where they originated?

We've answered that -> East Africa.

Are you asking what there skin color was?

We've answered that, they were most likely dark skinned like all other native Africans such as the Siwa.

So why are you repeating the questions, but in capital letters and with such convoluted language as to make it difficult to figure out what you're actually asking?

My conclusion is that you are desparate to appear to be asking a question that is not being answered. That's easy to do.

Anyone can ask a nonsensical question.

---

rasol seems to be avoiding simple questions I wonder why?

Neith-Athena wrote:

quote:

---

So who were the Native North Africans? Who were the original Berber speakers, if not people from East Africa? What are the most ancient lineages amongst modern Berbers?

---

rasol lets try and remove the umbrella called 'Berber' and see what's being covered up.

Wikipedia

quote:

---

Subclassification of the Berber languages is made difficult by their mutual closeness; Maarten Kossmann (1999) describes it as two dialect continua, Northern Berber and Tuareg, and a few peripheral languages , spoken in isolated pockets largely surrounded by Arabic, that fall outside these continua, namely Zenaga and the Libyan and Egyptian varieties

---

rasol Subclassification of 'Berber' is possible, seeing that it's mostly a TWO DIALECT CONTINUA
Northern Tama(Z)ight and Tamasheq.

Lets ask now which group is older? or which group came first Northern Tamazight or Tamasheq?

What are the most ancient lineages found amongst Northern Tamazight speakers versus Tamasheq speakers?

rasol seems to running fast and furious from the lineage question

Hotep

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
Interesting. How do you correlate this with the reconstructable Proto-Berber root *a-kli "slave, negro" notably nowadays attested in Kabyle, Tamasheq (not sure anymore about Siwa) with the same meaning?

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:


Neolithic and early historic "Berber" finds, 250 or more miles south of the
Mediterranean, could well have been left by black or coloured peoples who
spoke "Berber" before it reached the Maghreb. In other words the
Leukaethiopes
Melanogaetuli
Nigritae
Western Ethiopians (Hesperii)
Pharusii
Icthyophagi Aethiopes
etc.,
and their modern descendents still there in the same vast "Saharan" area
are just as much "Berber" as anybody else, and if Williamson (based on Behrens)
is right, even more so as they are remnants of the proto-North Tamazight speakers
or so at least the Haritin donating to genetic tests seem to infer.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mystery Solver:

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:

Khoisan do call themselves Blacks.

---

Would make sense...



A San bushman with Dr. Spencer Wells Photograph: National Geographic Society: Courtesy finfacts.com

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Damn that's a pure bushman dawg? All the pictures I seen of the khoisan tribes were light-skinned and wiry, oh well .
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Neither words for servant/slave be it akl or abd
originally meant a black inner African. Only after
the overt slave trade was relegated to purchases of
inner Africans did either word take on such connotation.

There simply was no such thing as a negro over
6ya when proto-taMazight split off from Afrisan
or bloomed into its own phylum however it may
have done so.

Back in that time, and in the region it happened,
where there any other people than tropically
adapted black inner Africans? -- none of whom were
negroes (an insidious term originating from the 15th
century Portuguese slave trade which means a black
thing i.e., commodity, a word so vile that it became
outlawed in the Portuguese tongue because it and its
derivatives could not be cleansed of the unnatural
derogative stigma associated with the word when
applied to a human being.)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
^^
I hear you but *a-kli was etymologically related to work and is not an etymological reference to skin complexion. The first idea I get from this Proto Berber root is that it seems to show that "negroes" were already considered as slaves at the time when Proto Berber was spoken & weren't considered as Imazighen or "free men" at this time already. It would be interesting to get some information about the exact meaning of Akli in the various Berber dialects.

---

 

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Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
 
^^

Interesting. I'll try to dig up about the meaning of Akli "slave/negro" and the different beliefs associated to it in various Berber dialects
to see if the "black" meaning could actually have been a import from Portugueses at a time when Berbers were already scattered and geographically isolated from each other.

PS: Isn't it possible that Tuareg/ Siwi looking Berbers would have looked at inner African looking people as different as them though, hence the modern translation of *a-kli as "negro"?
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Another great map to add to the collection thanks to DougM!






 

---

Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
^^

Interesting. I'll try to dig up about the meaning of Akli "slave/negro" and the different beliefs associated to it in various Berber dialects
to see if the "black" meaning could actually have been a import from Portugueses at a time when Berbers were already scattered and geographically isolated from each other.

PS: Isn't it possible that Tuareg/ Siwi looking Berbers would have looked at inner African looking people as different as them though, hence the modern translation of *a-kli as "negro"?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
^^

Interesting. I'll try to dig up about the meaning of Akli "slave/negro" and the different beliefs associated to it in various Berber dialects
to see if the "black" meaning could actually have been a import from Portugueses at a time when Berbers were already scattered and geographically isolated from each other.

PS: Isn't it possible that Tuareg/ Siwi looking Berbers would have looked at inner African looking people as different as them though, hence the modern translation of *a-kli as "negro"?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Yonis:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by MyRedCow:


The Bantu slaves of the Amhara were called "black".

---

quote:

---

Red cow:
Two centuries ago the Bantu's ancestors were taken from their homes in Mozambique, Tanzania and Malawi, and sold as slaves in Somalia as well as along the border areas of Southern Ethiopia. Most were sold by Arab slave traders to grow food for the advancing Arab armies. The Arabs were eventually defeated by the Bantu's and the Ethiopian Imperial Forces. And, for their loyalty to the Ethiopian Emperor in this war, they were granted both freedom from slavery and given the land they now live on. However, since the Bantu's were surrounded by a majority of Moslem Somali speaking nomadic tribes, the Bantus were forced to abandon their language and African cultural heritage. Even more tragic was the retreat of the Ethiopian Imperial forces to the Ethiopian highlands. Without protection from Ethiopia, the Bantus fell victims to the Somali tribes, which subjected them to segregation, humiliation, and forced labor. Thankfully, the Ethiopians retook what is now southern Ethiopia, and reestablished the Bantu's basic social freedoms and self rule. In spite of the misery of the last 200 years, the Bantu's remain a joyful and non-violent people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

The point you are missing is that if MODERN berber dialects are surrounded by Arabic speakers and others, then this MODERN dispersal does not reflect the historic dispersals and origins of the language. Arabic is not native to Africa and the spread of Arabic displaced and disrupted the original distribution of Berber dialects as well as original North African populations.

---

quote:

---

Doug M:

Time does not stand still, populations do not stand still and languages do not stand still. Therefore, nothing is being covered up, other than the fact that RELATIVELY RECENT migrations of Eurasians and others carrying Arabic culture and language have done much to disrupt the ancient patterns of culture, language and lifestyle of populations that occupied Northern Africa. The Berber language and its original distribution and dispersal among various African populations has been similarly distrupted and displaced, therefore making the modern dispersals of Berber speakers not reflective of the original dispersions and populations that carried it. It is like people keep denying that the last 2,000 years of North African history has seen a large influx of Eurasian populations into North Africa, by claiming the make up of Northern Africa was ALWAYS the way it is now, going back more than 2,000 years ago. Sorry, but no it wasn't. Therefore, the very question of trying to equate Northern Berber and Tamashek with the original populations that were responsible for spreading those languages is as ridiculous as trying to say Northern Coastal Africans, heavily mixed with foreign migrants are somehow older lineages than those INDIGENOUS to Africa who originally populated the Sahara.

---

quote:

---

rasol seems to be avoiding simple questions I wonder why?

Neith-Athena wrote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So who were the Native North Africans? Who were the original Berber speakers, if not people from East Africa? What are the most ancient lineages amongst modern Berbers?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

rasol lets try and remove the umbrella called 'Berber' and see what's being covered up.

Wikipedia

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subclassification of the Berber languages is made difficult by their mutual closeness; Maarten Kossmann (1999) describes it as two dialect continua, Northern Berber and Tuareg , and a few peripheral languages , spoken in isolated pockets largely surrounded by Arabic, that fall outside these continua, namely Zenaga and the Libyan and Egyptian varieties
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

rasol Subclassification of 'Berber' is possible, seeing that it's mostly a TWO DIALECT CONTINUA
Northern Tama(Z)ight and Tamasheq.

Lets ask now which group is older? or which group came first Northern Tamazight or Tamasheq?

What are the most ancient lineages found amongst Northern Tamazight speakers versus Tamasheq speakers?

rasol seems to running fast and furious from the lineage question

---

Djehuti you obviously have no FACTS to add to the topic so your speculative ideas will be ignored until you show factual evidence to support your OPINIONS.

rasol we are waiting for answers

Hotep
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mystery Solver:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

The point you are missing is that if MODERN berber dialects are surrounded by Arabic speakers and others, then this MODERN dispersal does not reflect the historic dispersals and origins of the language. Arabic is not native to Africa and the spread of Arabic displaced and disrupted the original distribution of Berber dialects as well as original North African populations.

---

Can you elaborate on the nature of this "displacement" of original North African populations.

quote:

---

Doug M:

Time does not stand still, populations do not stand still and languages do not stand still. Therefore, nothing is being covered up, other than the fact that RELATIVELY RECENT migrations of Eurasians and others carrying Arabic culture and language have done much to disrupt the ancient patterns of culture, language and lifestyle of populations that occupied Northern Africa. The Berber language and its original distribution and dispersal among various African populations has been similarly distrupted and displaced, therefore making the modern dispersals of Berber speakers not reflective of the original dispersions and populations that carried it. It is like people keep denying that the last 2,000 years of North African history has seen a large influx of Eurasian populations into North Africa, by claiming the make up of Northern Africa was ALWAYS the way it is now, going back more than 2,000 years ago. Sorry, but no it wasn't. Therefore, the very question of trying to equate Northern Berber and Tamashek with the original populations that were responsible for spreading those languages is as ridiculous as trying to say Northern Coastal Africans, heavily mixed with foreign migrants are somehow older lineages than those INDIGENOUS to Africa who originally populated the Sahara.

---

This last piece seems to suggest that coastal North Africans aren't "indigenous" to Africa. If it isn't suggesting this, can you please elaborate on what it is conveying.

Also, Tamazight/Berber speakers still occupy North Africa; the Arabic speaking populations of these regions have largely been "Arabized", which is not the same thing as population 'displacement'. To this extent, it raises the question of what context you are placing "displacement", as you kept referring to it over the course of your post.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hotep2u:
Greetings:

Let me repeat the question

quote:

---

rasol seems to be avoiding simple questions I wonder why?

Neith-Athena wrote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So who were the Native North Africans? Who were the original Berber speakers, if not people from East Africa? What are the most ancient lineages amongst modern Berbers?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

rasol lets try and remove the umbrella called 'Berber' and see what's being covered up.

Wikipedia

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subclassification of the Berber languages is made difficult by their mutual closeness; Maarten Kossmann (1999) describes it as two dialect continua, Northern Berber and Tuareg , and a few peripheral languages , spoken in isolated pockets largely surrounded by Arabic, that fall outside these continua, namely Zenaga and the Libyan and Egyptian varieties
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

rasol Subclassification of 'Berber' is possible, seeing that it's mostly a TWO DIALECT CONTINUA
Northern Tama(Z)ight and Tamasheq.

Lets ask now which group is older? or which group came first Northern Tamazight or Tamasheq?

What are the most ancient lineages found amongst Northern Tamazight speakers versus Tamasheq speakers?

rasol seems to running fast and furious from the lineage question

---

Djehuti you obviously have no FACTS to add to the topic so your speculative ideas will be ignored until you show factual evidence to support your OPINIONS.

rasol we are waiting for answers

Hotep

---

quote:

---

rasol seems to running fast and furious from the lineage question

---

quote:

---

Djehuti you obviously have no FACTS

---

quote:

---

Hotep writes: Let me repeat the question

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

Coastal North Africans are largely derived from foreign migrants and therefore arent "indigenous".

---

quote:

---

Doug M:

What I mean is that you cannot compare a population heavily mixed with foreign elements and try and put them up as being AS INDIGENOUS as those who HAVE NO substantial NON AFRICAN mixture, even if mixed coastal populations have been in North Africa for 3,000 years or more.

---

quote:

---

Doug M:

I dont see what is hard to understand.

---

quote:

---

Doug M:

A perfect example is all the books and writings that try and pretend that "Berbers" as a language and ethnic identification START with the arrival of foreigners, either phoenicians or other Eurasians to North Africa. Or the theories that try and say that Northern Africa above the Sahara was cut off from the rest of Africa and only "caucasoids" lived there. BOTH are nonsense. Berber as a language and associated with an ethnic group ORIGINATED COMPLETELY in Africa and spread to coastal North Africa among black Africans who subsequently began to encounter other populations of migrants to North Africa from Europe and Asia.

---

quote:

---

Doug M:

To question whether the black Africans were AS indigenous to Africa as the OTHER populations who migrated from elsewhere is RIDICULOUS. That is my point.

---

quote:

---

Doug M:

By displacement of Berber speakers I mean culturally, ethnically and linguisically.

---

quote:

---

Doug M:

Once again, you are trying to compare mixed or foreign derived populations with NON foreign derived populations as if they are EQUALLY indigenous to Africa, when they arent.

---

quote:

---

Doug M:

Africa is not like America where everyone is a fairly recent migrant.

---

quote:

---

Doug M:

Africa has ALWAYS been populated by black Africans who have BEEN THERE since BEFORE ANY ONE ELSE and in that sense are the ONLY TRULY indigenous population of Africa, in the sense of deriving COMPLETELY from populations TOTALLY IN AFRICA and FROM NOWHERE ELSE.

---

quote:

---

Doug M:

If we were talking of a different continent, maybe what you are saying would make sense, but in this sense it doesnt.

---

quote:

---

Doug M:

All that said, however, that does not mean that even the foreign derived elements of coastal North Africa arent Africans.

---

quote:

---

Doug M:

It just means that by trying to put them on an equal footing with ancient African populations and lineages that have been in Africa for 70,000 years or more is RIDICULOUS and NOT ACCURATE.

---

quote:

---

Doug M:

It is especially RIDICULOUS when one tries to make modern foreign derived coastal Africans the originators of a language that COMPLETELY derives from WITHIN Africa thousands of years ago and NOT along the coast.

---

quote:

---

Doug M:

Then to USE that language as a way of SEPARATING it from the INDIGENOUS populations of NON COASTAL black Africans from which it derived is EQUALLY RIDICULOUS.

---

quote:

---

Doug M:
I always cringe when some history of Mauretania, Morocco or other African country says that the ORIGINAL Africans were displaced by "Berbers". REALLY! They WERE the Berbers!

---

quote:

---

So who were the Native North Africans? Who were the original Berber speakers, if not people from East Africa? What are the most ancient lineages amongst modern Berbers

---

quote:

---

The case is that I answered the question concerning Berber lineage E3b2.

Not our fault that you don't understand the answer and so repeat the question.

Or worse, attempt to make the question more convoluted so as to give the impression that it was not answered.

Why not address the answer instead of pretending not to hear it?

---

rasol are you saying that E3b2 is the oldest Y chromosome Lineage found amongst TamaZight and Tamasheq speakers(Tuaregs)?
 

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Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 
^ No, why?

E3b2 diverged from E3b in neolithic East Africa and spread to Northwest Africa along with the original Berber speakers.

Therefore E3b denotes the East African origin of Berber.

Are you saying you can't understand this?

 

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Posted by MyRedCow (Member # 10893) on :
 
Malika Hachid and others basically say that the ancestors of the Tuareg, Haratin, and other Sahelian groups and probably the Ancient Egyptians are the people represented by the Rock Art paintings and engravings of northrn Africa.

Their tool kit includes the baton. They had cattle and other wild animals long gone from today's Sahara.

http://ennedi.free.fr/rupestre.htm

http://www.solane.org/art%20rupestre.html


What was the original Tamazigt language?......

What i can't get out of my mind is the tattooes that the Ethiopian Jewish and Berber and Fulani girls wear on their foreheads. They often have a
"+" sign. This sign is the Roman letter "T".





In Ge'ez, the original Ethiopian script, t or tawe is almost identical to the Tifinagh t "+".

Looking closely, there is a similarity to other letters as well in both systems.
 

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Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
 
First, I said before that *a-kli was reconstructable for Proto-Berber, this is not true as far I know since my source actually says it is only reconstructable for Proto-Southern Berber (i.e. Proto-Tuareg) although it is attested in Kabyle as well.

Do you people think this word to be a reminiscence of the a common Proto Berber heritage or of an intermediary stage shared by ancestors of Kabyle & Tuareg speakers or a more recent borrowing by Kabyles from Tuareg (or less likely the other way around)? Do you any element or work supporting any of these theories (any recent contact between the Tuareg & Kabyle, with the introduction of tropical African featured Blacks people or whatever one calls them or later divergence of Kabyle & Tuareg languages)?

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Uh-oh! Inner African doesn't denote a monolithic
phenotype. Not being Mediterranean coastal, Kel
taMasheq (excepting those of the far north) are
one inner African phenotype.

But these servitude words that nowadays are used
in place of outright saying black men/women/etc.,
mean exactly that, "work."

You've said as much in your etymology of akli.

Is abd the Arabic word for the color black?
Is akl the taMazight word for the color black?
Negro comes from the Latin for the color black.
The root of negro is unrelated to the concept of work.

See what's going on here?

As black as the oasis sharecroppers, a good number
of the clergymen, and the bulk of the smiths and
the craftsmen are, why aren't they called akli?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
^^

Interesting. I'll try to dig up about the meaning of Akli "slave/negro" and the different beliefs associated to it in various Berber dialects
to see if the "black" meaning could actually have been a import from Portugueses at a time when Berbers were already scattered and geographically isolated from each other.

PS: Isn't it possible that Tuareg/ Siwi looking Berbers would have looked at inner African looking people as different as them though, hence the modern translation of *a-kli as "negro"?

---

---

quote:

---

any recent contact between the Tuareg & Kabyle, with the introduction of tropical African featured Blacks people or whatever one calls them

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mystery Solver:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

Coastal North Africans are largely derived from foreign migrants and therefore arent "indigenous".

---

Based on what population genetics? I mean, you are talking about people here - hence biology.

quote:

---

Doug M:

What I mean is that you cannot compare a population heavily mixed with foreign elements and try and put them up as being AS INDIGENOUS as those who HAVE NO substantial NON AFRICAN mixture, even if mixed coastal populations have been in North Africa for 3,000 years or more.

---

I fail to see how one or the other can be any more or less indigenous, since you haven't demonstrated that coastal Tamazight/Berber speakers have ever originated outside the continent or that they've ever left it in the first place.

quote:

---

Doug M:

I dont see what is hard to understand.

---

What makes you think something is yet to be understood or misunderstood, considering that your reply cites specific statements, accompanied by concise simple questions? Please elaborate.

quote:

---

Doug M:

A perfect example is all the books and writings that try and pretend that "Berbers" as a language and ethnic identification START with the arrival of foreigners, either phoenicians or other Eurasians to North Africa. Or the theories that try and say that Northern Africa above the Sahara was cut off from the rest of Africa and only "caucasoids" lived there. BOTH are nonsense. Berber as a language and associated with an ethnic group ORIGINATED COMPLETELY in Africa and spread to coastal North Africa among black Africans who subsequently began to encounter other populations of migrants to North Africa from Europe and Asia.

---

Given that you've acknowledged Tamazight/Berber language originated in Africa, why then presume the speakers of such in coastal North Africa aren't indigenous?...because they aren't "black"?

quote:

---

Doug M:

To question whether the black Africans were AS indigenous to Africa as the OTHER populations who migrated from elsewhere is RIDICULOUS. That is my point.

---

Here's the thing: you have yet to show evidence that coastal north Africans are not largely indigenous, or that they migrated from "elsewhere", presumably outside of Africa. All I see you doing, is making the argument on account of skin color, specifically 'black skin hue', as though it is the tool for measuring the "degree of indigenousness". But perhaps you have more to offer.

quote:

---

Doug M:

By displacement of Berber speakers I mean culturally, ethnically and linguisically.

---

Do Tamazight/Berber speakers still live in the Sahara?

Do Tamazight/Berber speakers still occupy North Africa?

Do North African populations still not show significant African ancestry?

If your answer is 'yes', that all the above exists, then how have they been 'displaced' culturally, ethnically and linguistically?

quote:

---

Doug M:

Once again, you are trying to compare mixed or foreign derived populations with NON foreign derived populations as if they are EQUALLY indigenous to Africa, when they arent.

---

1)Where have I done this as you had cited me?

2)Who are the foreign derived populations?

3)How is a mixed population, presumably of African ancestry and extra-African ancestry any less indigenous than any other in the African continent?

quote:

---

Doug M:

Africa is not like America where everyone is a fairly recent migrant.

---

Immaterial.

quote:

---

Doug M:

Africa has ALWAYS been populated by black Africans who have BEEN THERE since BEFORE ANY ONE ELSE and in that sense are the ONLY TRULY indigenous population of Africa, in the sense of deriving COMPLETELY from populations TOTALLY IN AFRICA and FROM NOWHERE ELSE.

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Makes no sense. There are "black Africans" with extra-African ancestry. Are they any less indigenous than other "black Africans"? Similarly, there are light skin Africans with both African ancestry and extra-African ancestry. Are they any less indigenous than the "black" Africans also with African and extra-African ancestry?

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Doug M:

If we were talking of a different continent, maybe what you are saying would make sense, but in this sense it doesnt.

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What was I saying, considering that you are replying to "questions" you've cited? Why does it not make sense?

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Doug M:

All that said, however, that does not mean that even the foreign derived elements of coastal North Africa arent Africans.

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Considering all you've said so far, it hasn't even been yet established that they cannot be deemed "indigenous" Africans to begin with.

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Doug M:

It just means that by trying to put them on an equal footing with ancient African populations and lineages that have been in Africa for 70,000 years or more is RIDICULOUS and NOT ACCURATE.

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African populations have wide-ranging TMRCA lineages. Many of them don't go as far back 70,000. So should these groups be of a "less footing', because they are relatively younger than the aforementioned timeframe? If not, how are North African populations any less of a footing vis-a-vis these groups, in terms of being indigenous?

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Doug M:

It is especially RIDICULOUS when one tries to make modern foreign derived coastal Africans the originators of a language that COMPLETELY derives from WITHIN Africa thousands of years ago and NOT along the coast.

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Perhaps, if the notion of their "foreign derivation" has yet been established, but that isn't the status quo.

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Doug M:

Then to USE that language as a way of SEPARATING it from the INDIGENOUS populations of NON COASTAL black Africans from which it derived is EQUALLY RIDICULOUS.

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How?...considering that Tamazight/Berber is considered to be African, and of east African origins. If other groups fall outside the sub-family of languages, well then, the burden lies with you, to demonstrate why the linguist advocates of such are wrong.

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Doug M:
I always cringe when some history of Mauretania, Morocco or other African country says that the ORIGINAL Africans were displaced by "Berbers". REALLY! They WERE the Berbers!

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Not sure what you are saying here, other than perhaps, that the 'original Berbers' were the ones who were displaced? If so, it goes back to the question cited in your reply!

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Originally posted by Doug M:

In summary

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Doug M:

, there are those who uphold certain Berber speaking populations of coastal North Africa along with their features, as the epitome of what distinguishes Berber culture, language and history from others in Africa. This is what I was getting at. They are NOT the ORIGINAL Berber speakers of Africa and the features that they have to not DISTINGUISH them as from other Berber speakers as the ORIGINAL Berbers. In this context, some indeed have tried to make foreign derived elements of the Berber speaking community into a completely indigenous non foreign African derived population that has ALWAYS been in Coastal North Africa and from whom Berber language and customs derived. They do not talk about any origins of Berber language, culture or customs from East Africa. They most often speak of Northern, especially coastal North Africa as if it was the original home of Berber speakers and Berber culture, starting with MIGRATIONS from foreign lands. One only needs to read the wiki page on Berbers to see this.

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Doug M:
This may not be YOUR point of view, but that is what I was getting at.

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1) Do Tamazight/Berber speakers still live in the Sahara?

2) Do Tamazight/Berber speakers still occupy North Africa?

3)Do North African populations still not show significant African ancestry?

If your answer is 'yes', that all the above exists, then how have they been 'displaced' culturally, ethnically and linguistically?

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1)Where have I done this as you had cited me?

2)Who are the foreign derived populations?

3)How is a mixed population, presumably of African ancestry and extra-African ancestry any less indigenous than any other in the African continent?

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I haven't read HIERNAUX & thought the "broad/elongated featured" part was a reference to facial traits so it made no sense to me as calling Upper Egyptians, Tuareg, Siwa Berbers this way since most of those I have seen don't have "narrow" facial features.

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Originally posted by Doug M:

Africans with mostly inter/intra African admixture cannot be compared to African/Non African admixture in terms of who is representative of Aboriginal African populations.

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Doug M:

There are populations in coastal North Africa with SIGNIFIGANT non African genetic traits that STILL claim they are as indigenous or more indigenous to Africa by language and culture than those with less non African genetic admixture. Language does not make one more indigenous to a continent, genetic lineages do, in the sense that some are fully indigenous to a particular continent where others are not.

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Doug M:
Therefore:

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1) Do Tamazight/Berber speakers still live in the Sahara?

2) Do Tamazight/Berber speakers still occupy North Africa?

3)Do North African populations still not show significant African ancestry?

If your answer is 'yes', that all the above exists, then how have they been 'displaced' culturally, ethnically and linguistically?

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1) Language isnt lineage so it is irrelevent to the question of which lineages are indigenous to Africa and which populations are MORE indigenous than others.

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Doug M:

2) Same as 1

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Doug M:

3) Sure, but some have MORE significant African ancestry than others.

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Doug M:

And

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1)Where have I done this as you had cited me?

2)Who are the foreign derived populations?

3)How is a mixed population, presumably of African ancestry and extra-African ancestry any less indigenous than any other in the African continent?

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1) You do so yourself in 3 below in the form of a question

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Doug M:

, which implies that BOTH are EQUALLY indigenous, when of course they arent.

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Doug M:

2) Those with a majority percentage of non African genetic lineages.

3) If it is extra African it is non indigenous. Self explanatory. The more the extra African lineages the less indigenous to Africa.

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Doug M:

Also a key point to remember is when people trace lineages they are tracing origins, meaning lineages most often are studied to determine ancient migrations of populations within and across continents. Therefore, it is implicit in such studies that some populations will be considered purely indigenous versus others which will be considered derived or mixed with non indigenous populations, depending on the time depth in question.

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Doug M:

However, that said all of these populations are Africans and have African cultural traits.

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Doug M:

At the same token however, they are diverse and also share non African traditions, languages and customs that should also be acknowledged and not ignored as if it doesnt exist.

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Doug M:

People of mixed heritage have every right to celebrate their diversity in all respects, whether it is African, Asian, European or otherwise. Those who have Asian, European and other diverse ancestry along with their African heritage cannot claim African heritage alone as if those others elements do not exist and pretend that their make up is purely African when it is not. That is all.

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Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
First, I said before that *a-kli was reconstructable for Proto-Berber, this is not true as far I know since my source actually says it is only reconstructable for Proto-Southern Berber (i.e. Proto-Tuareg) although it is attested in Kabyle as well.

Do you people think this word to be a reminiscence of the a common Proto Berber heritage or of an intermediary stage shared by ancestors of Kabyle & Tuareg speakers or a more recent borrowing by Kabyles from Tuareg (or less likely the other way around)? Do you any element or work supporting any of these theories (any recent contact between the Tuareg & Kabyle, with the introduction of tropical African featured Blacks people or whatever one calls them or later divergence of Kabyle & Tuareg languages)?

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Originally posted by alTakruri:
Uh-oh! Inner African doesn't denote a monolithic
phenotype. Not being Mediterranean coastal, Kel
taMasheq (excepting those of the far north) are
one inner African phenotype.

But these servitude words that nowadays are used
in place of outright saying black men/women/etc.,
mean exactly that, "work."

You've said as much in your etymology of akli.

Is abd the Arabic word for the color black?
Is akl the taMazight word for the color black?
Negro comes from the Latin for the color black.
The root of negro is unrelated to the concept of work.

See what's going on here?

As black as the oasis sharecroppers, a good number
of the clergymen, and the bulk of the smiths and
the craftsmen are, why aren't they called akli?

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Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
^^

Interesting. I'll try to dig up about the meaning of Akli "slave/negro" and the different beliefs associated to it in various Berber dialects
to see if the "black" meaning could actually have been a import from Portugueses at a time when Berbers were already scattered and geographically isolated from each other.

PS: Isn't it possible that Tuareg/ Siwi looking Berbers would have looked at inner African looking people as different as them though, hence the modern translation of *a-kli as "negro"?

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