I would like to use this topic to discover the history of that area called in ancient times Tehenu or Libya/Maghreb.
Lets look at what some evidence has to say about this area of Afrika.
Maghreb From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search
Marrakesh, Morocco, in front of Atlas Mountains in MaghrebThe Maghreb (المغرب العربي al-Maġrib al-ʿArabī; also rendered Maghrib (or rarely Moghreb), meaning "western" in Arabic, is the region of Africa north of the Sahara Desert and west of the Nile — specifically, coinciding with the Atlas Mountains. Geopolitically, the area is reckoned to include Morocco, Western Sahara, Algeria, Tunisia, sometimes Libya, and rarely Mauritania. Apropos, the Arab Maghreb Union includes all of the territories listed above except, due to its political status, Western Sahara. An inhabitant or thing of the Maghreb is called a Maghrebian or Maghrebi
Ancient Map from Herodotus describing Libya:
If you look in the top left hand corner of this map we will see the Atlas Mountains of Ancient Libya.
Modern Map showing the Ancient Libyan\Maghreb area.
Blue shaded area shows Maghreb,while Atlas Mountains point to ancient Libyan\Maghreb borders.
Etymology The word maghrib is an Arabic term for "of the setting (sun)" from the root ghuroob, meaning "to set" or "to be hidden" (however, it is not used to refer to the setting of the moon). It is also used in a manner similar to the metaphorical use "to be eclipsed", which is used in English.
In Arabic but not in English, Al Maghreb commonly refers to Morocco: the full Arabic name of Morocco (Al Mamlakah al Maghribīyah) translates to "the Western Kingdom". Historically, Morocco was called Al Maghreb al Aqşá ("the Furthest West").
I would also like to add E.Wallis Budge Vol.II page 996 Manu - The WEST, The Country of the SUNSET.
Nomenclature The term "Berber" is disliked by many modern Berbers, because it comes from the ancient Greek barbaros, "barbarian".
MAGHREBIAN PEOPLE SPEAKING A TAMAZIGHT LANGUAGES SHOULD HAVE BEEN USED TO DEFINE THE LANGUAGE SPOKEN AMONGST THESE PEOPLE.
The Berber languages (or Tamazight ) are a group of closely related languages mainly spoken in Morocco and Algeria. A very sparse population extends into the whole Sahara and the northern part of the Sahel. They belong to the Afro-Asiatic languages phylum. There is a strong movement among Berbers to unify the closely related northern Berber languages into a single standard, Tamazight.
Among the Berber languages are Tarifit or Riffi (northern Morocco), Kabyle (Algeria) and Tashelhiyt (central Morocco). Tamazight has been a written language, on and off, for almost 3000 years; however, this tradition has been frequently disrupted by various invasions. It was first written in the Tifinagh alphabet, still used by the Tuareg; the oldest dated inscription is from about 200 BC. Later between about 1000 AD and 1500 AD, it was written in the Arabic alphabet (particularly by the Shilha of Morocco); in this century, it is often written in the Latin alphabet, especially among the Kabyle. A variant of the Tifinagh alphabet was recently made official in Morocco, while the Latin alphabet is official in Algeria, Mali, and Niger; however, both Tifinagh and Arabic are still widely used in Mali and Niger, while Latin and Arabic are still widely used in Morocco.
These be the Libyan tribes whereof I am able to give the names; and most of these cared little then, and indeed care little now, for the king of the Medes. One thing more also I can add concerning this region, namely, that, so far as our knowledge reaches, four nations, and no more, inhabit it; and two of these nations are indigenous, while two are not. The two indigenous are the Libyans and Ethiopians, who dwell respectively in the north and the south of Libya. The Phoenicians and the Greek are in-comers .
Two Groups of Nations were in-comers Phoenicians and Greeks.
quote: Inquiries by Herodotus Book 7
for the Ethiopians from the sun’s direction are straight-haired and those from Libya have the wooliest hair of all human beings.
The evidence is clear that to lump all these individuals living in Maghrebian areas today as Berbers is illogical and disrespectful which will only lead to CONFUSION when studying this area.
Some of these individuals are descendants of Greeks, Romans, Phoenicians and Arabs.
The original inhabitants of the Sahara where the Kemetic civilization originated were Blacks not Berbers or Indo-European speakers. These Blacks formerly lived in the highland regions of the Fezzan and Hoggar until after 4000 BC. This ancient homeland of the Dravidians, Egyptians, Sumerians, Niger-Kordofanian-Mande and Elamite speakers is called the Fertile African Crescent. ( Anselin, 1989, p.16; Winters, 1981,1985b,1991). We call these people the Proto-Saharans (Winters 1985b,1991). The generic term for this group is Kushite. This explains the analogy between the Black-African Sumerian-Dravidian-Elamite (Bafsudraalam) languages outlined briefly above. These Proto-Saharans were called Ta-Seti and Tehenu by the Egyptians.
The inhabitants of the Fezzan were round headed Africans. (Jelinek, 1985,p.273) The cultural characteristics of the Fezzanese were analogous to C-Group culture items and the people of Ta-Seti . The C-Group people occupied the Sudan and Fezzan regions between 3700-1300 BC (Jelinek 1985). The inhabitants of Libya were called Tmhw (Temehus). The Temehus were organized into two groups the Thnw (Tehenu) in the North and the Nhsj (Nehesy) in the South. (Diop 1986) A Tehenu personage is depicted on Amratian period pottery (Farid 1985 ,p. 84). The Tehenu wore pointed beard, phallic-sheath and feathers on their head.
The Temehus are called the C-Group people by archaeologists (Jelinek, 1985; Quellec, 1985). The central Fezzan was a center of C-Group settlement. Quellec (1985, p.373) discussed in detail the presence of C-Group culture traits in the Central Fezzan along with their cattle during the middle of the Third millennium BC.
The Temehus or C-Group people began to settle Kush around 2200 BC. The kings of Kush had their capital at Kerma, in Dongola and a sedentary center on Sai Island. The same pottery found at Kerma is also present in Libya especially the Fezzan.
The C-Group founded the Kerma dynasty of Kush. Diop (1986, p.72) noted that the "earliest substratum of the Libyan population was a black population from the south Sahara". Kerma was first inhabited in the 4th millennium BC (Bonnet 1986). By the 2nd millennium BC Kushites at kerma were already worshippers of Amon/Amun and they used a distinctive black-and-red ware (Bonnet 1986; Winters 1985b,1991). Amon, later became a major god of the Egyptians during the 18th Dynasty.
There are similarities between Egyptian and Saharan motifs (Farid,1985). It was in the Sahara that we find the first evidence of agriculture, animal domestication and weaving (Farid , 1985, p.82). This highland region is the Kemites "Mountain of the Moons " region, the area from which the civilization and goods of Kem, originated.
The rock art of the Saharan Highlands support the Egyptian traditions that in ancient times they lived in the Mountains of the Moon. The Predynastic Egyptian mobiliar art and the Saharan rock art share many common themes including, characteristic boats (Farid 1985,p. 82), men with feathers on their head (Petrie ,1921,pl. xvlll,fig.74; Raphael, 1947, pl.xxiv, fig.10; Vandier , 1952, p.285, fig. 192), false tail hanging from the waist (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Farid, 1985,p.83; Winkler 1938,I, pl.xxlll) and the phallic sheath (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Winkler , 1938,I , pl.xvlll,xx, xxlll). Farid (1985,p.82) noted that "We can notice that the beginning of the Neolithic stage in Egypt on the edge of the Western Desert corresponds with the expansion of the Saharian Neolithic culture and the growth of its population". (emphasis that of author)
Due to the appearance of aridity in the Mountains of the Moon the Proto-Saharans migrated first into Nubia and thence into Kem. The Proto-Saharan origin of the Kemites explain the fact that the Kushites were known for maintaining the most ancient traditions of the Kemites as proven when the XXVth Dynasty or Kushite Dynasty ruled ancient Egypt. Farid (1985, p.85) wrote that "To conclude, it seems that among Predynastic foreign relations, the [Proto-] Saharians were the first to have significant contact with the Nile Valley, and even formed a part of the Predynastic population" (emphasis author). References: Anselin,A.(1984). "Zeus, Ethiopien Minos Tamoul", Carbet Revue Martinique de Sciences Humaines,no. 2:31-50. This articles explains the African origin of the Libyans. It has several very good illustrations of Blacks in ancient Sahara.
_______.(1989). "Le Lecon Dravidienne",Carbet Revue Martinique de Sciences Humaines, no.9:7-58. This paper discussed the origins of the Dravidian and their relationship to Africans.
Bonnet,C. (1986). Kerma: Territoire et Metropole. Cairo: Instut Francais D'Archeologie Orientale du Caire. This is a fine examination of the Kerma culture of Nubia which existed in Nubia before the Egyptians established rule in this area.
Diop,C.A. (1974). The African Origin of Civilization. (ed. & Trans) by Mercer Cook, Westport:Lawrence Hill & Company. This book outlines Diop's theory of the African origin of Egyptian civilization.
_________.(1977). Parente genetique de l'Egyptien Pharaonique et des Languaes Negro-Africaines. Dakar: IFAN ,Les Nouvelles Editions Africaines. This is a very good discussion of the extensive morphological and phonological evidence of unity between Wolof and Egyptian.
__________.(1978) The Cultural Unity of Black Africa. Chicago: Third World Press. This book details the precolombian character of African civilizations, and explains the common cultural expressions they share.
___________.(1986). "Formation of the Berber Branch". In Libya Antiqua. (ed.) by Unesco,(Paris: UNESCO) pp.69-73. In this article Diop explains that the original inhabitants of Libya were Blacks.
____________.(1987). Precolonial Black Africa. (trans. ) by Harold Salemson, Westport: Lawrence Hill & Company. In this book Diop explains the origin and connections between the major Western Sudanic empires and states. These states are compared to European states.
____________.(1988). Nouvelles recherches sur l'Egyptien ancient et les langues Negro-Africaines Modernes. Paris: Presence Africaine. This book provides a number of Diop's theories regarding the relationship between Black-African and Egyptian languages.
_____________(1991). Civilization or Barbarism: An Authentic Anthropology. (trans.) by Yaa-Lengi Meema Ngemi and (ed.) by H.J. Salemson and Marjoliiw de Jager, Westport:Lawrence Hill and Company. This book details Diop's theory of the genetic model for the study of African civilization. It also gives a fine discussion of the architecture, mathematics and philosophy of the ancient Egyptians and other African people.
Farid,El-Yahky. (1985). "The Sahara and Predynastic Egypt an Overview".The Journal for the Society for the Study Egyptian Antiquities, 17 (1/2): 58-65. This paper gives a detailed discussion of the affinities between Egyptian civilization and the Saharan civilizations which we call Proto-Saharan. The evidence presented in this paper support the Saharan origin of the Egyptians.
Galassi, . (1942). Tehenu. Rome. Galassi explains the history of the Tehenu people forerunners of the Libyans.
Jelinek,J. (1985). "Tillizahren,the Key Site of the Fezzanese Rock Art". Anthropologie (Brno),23(3):223-275. This paper gives a stimulating account of the rock art of the Sahara and the important role the C-Group people played in the creation of this art.
Quellec,J-L le. (1985). "Les Gravures Rupestres Du Fezzan (Libye)". L'Anthropologie, 89 (3):365-383. This text deals comprehensively with the dates and spread of specific art themes in the ancient Sahara.
Vandier,J. (1952). Manuel d'archeologie Egyptienne. Paris. This is a fine examination of the archaeology of Egypt.
Williams,B. (1987). The A-Group Royal Cemetery at Qustul: Cemetery L. Chicago: The Oriental Institute University of Chicago. This excellent text reviews the important Qustul cemetery, which provides a detailed account of the rise of the first world empire in Nubia.
Winkler, H.A. (1938). Rock Drawings of Southern Upper Egypt. London. 2 volumes. This book gives numerous examples of rock art which point to an Egyptian origin in Nubia.
Winters, C.A. (1983a). "The Ancient Manding Script". In Blacks in Science:Ancient and Modern. (ed.) by Ivan van Sertima, (New Brunswick: Transaction Books) pp.208-215. This paper discusses the Manding origin for many of the so-called Libyco-Berber inscriptions and explains how these inscriptions can be read. It makes it clear that literacy was widespread in Africa 5000 years ago.
__________. (1983b). "Les Fondateurs de la Grece venaient d'Afrique en passant par la Crete". Afrique Histoire (Dakar), no.8:13-18. This rich historical account refutes the idea that Greece was founded by the Indo-European speakers. Winters argues that credit should be given to the African settlers of Anatolia from Libya, Egypt and Palestine.
_________. (1983c) "Famous Black Greeks Important in the development of Greek Culture". Return to the Source,2(1):8. In this article Winters' discussed the famous Greeks like Socrates, that were of African/Pelasgian origin.
________. (1984). "Blacks in Europe before the Europeans". Return to the Source, 3(1):26-33. This paper provides insights into the long history of Blacks in Europe, including the Old Europeans, Danubians and other groups.
_________.(1985a). "The Indus Valley Writing and related Scripts of the 3rd Millennium BC". India Past and Present, 2(1):13-19. The author describes the unity of the writing systems used by the Sumerians, Minoans, Egyptians and Harappans. He shows that these scripts have a common ideological origin and that they can all be read due to the genetic unity of the langauges spoken by these people.
__________. (1985b). "The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians". Tamil Civilization,3(1):1-9. Winters uses linguistics , historical and archaeological evidence to argue that the Dravidian, Manding and Sumerian speakers originated in the highland regions of the Sahara which he called the "Fertile African Crescent". Many of the culture terms of these groups are discussed and the proto- terms are reconstructed. It also provides numerous maps to delienate the migrations of these people from their archetype homeland.
__________. (1988). "Common African and Dravidian Place Name Elements". South Asian Anthropologist, 9(1):33-36. This paper provides an analysis of the common roots toponyms found in Asia of African origin.
__________. (1989a). "Tamil, Sumerian, Manding and the Genetic Model". International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 18(1):98-127. Winters discusses the genesis of the common culture of the founders of ancient civilizations in Africa and Asia. It also refutes the myth that the Sumerian and Dravidian languages are unrelated to any other languages on earth. Here you will find a detailed explanation of the morphological, semantic and lexical affinities shared by these languages that indicate their genetic unity.
__________. (1989b). "Review of Dr. Asko Parpola's 'The Coming of the Aryans'",International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 18(2):98-127. This anthropological and linguistic account of the prehistoric linguistic-history of South and Central Asia outlines the fallacy of Parpola's theory for an Indo-European founding of the Harappan civilization. He provides numerous examples of the Dravidian and African influences on the Indo-European languages.
__________. (1990). "The Dravido-Harappan Colonization of Central Asia". Central Asiatic Journal, 34(1/2):120-144. This paper discussed the settlement of Asia by African people 4500 years ago. Special attention is placed on the type and expression of African civilization in ancient Asia.
___________. (1991). "The Proto-Sahara". The Dravidian Encyclopaedia, (Trivandrum: International School of Dravidian Linguistics) pp.553-556. Volume l. This is a detailed account of the Proto-Saharan origin of the Elamites, Dravidians, Sumerians, Egyptians and other Black African groups. We also find here a well developed illumination of the cultural features shared by these genetically related groups.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Early Saharans The original inhabitants of the Sahara where the Kemetic civilization originated were Blacks not Berbers
^ Berber is not a skin color. Berber is and [however poorly named] African language group.
The Black vs. Berber dichotomy is just another outdated Eurocentric ruse.
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quote: ^ Berber is not a skin color. Berber is and [however poorly named] African language group.
The Black vs. Berber dichotomy is just another outdated Eurocentric ruse.
This Eurocentric ruse is not outdated, everyday the media projects the Berbers as a white group. In fact the average person would never believe that there are "Black" Berbers
This is why hotep2U began this topic. The topic was began to make it clear that although the media projects the Berbers as a single group of "white Africans", the Berbers themselves do not like the term Berber applied to them, and the speakers of each of the so-called Berber languages have always made it clear that their language and culture is unique and they should not be placed into the same group.
It is time we refer to each of these groups as separate entities : Zenati, Taureg and Kabyle. But until this is done, we must continue to make a distinction between and among the Berbers (who people percieve to "white Africans") and Black Africans.
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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The use of different names to describe the Tehenu and Asian in the Ramses III Table of Nations is understood in relation to the political and ethnic conditions in Egypt and Western Asia during this period. The research appears to indicate that the physiognomy of the Libyans had changed by this time . This resulted , for the most part from the invasion of Egypt by Sea Peoples in association with the Libu (Libyans).
The figures on Ramses III Table of nations are associated with the nations Ramses was dealing with iduring his reign. The Libyans attacked Egypt during the 5th and 11th years of Ramses III's reign. Beginning around 1230 Sea People began to attack Egypt. In 1180 Ramses III had his decisive battle with the Libyans. Among the warriors fighting with the Libu were Sea People.
Ramses III made multiple versions of his campaigns against the Libyans. To understand the naming method for Ramses III Table of Nations you have to understand that the term Tehenu was a generic term applied to the Libyans, who by this time were mixed with Palestinian-Syrian people (who were descendants of the Gutians), and People of the Sea (Indo-Europeans).
The attack against Egypt in 1188 was a coalition of tribal groups led by the Meshwesh, who are believed to be a Tamehu nationality. As a result, we find that the Meshwesh were referred to as Tehenu\Tamehu. This may not be correct because the Meshwesh are not mention in Egyptian text until the 14th Century BC.
The members of the coalition were led by Meshesher the wr 'ruler' of the coalition.Each group was led by a "great one" or a magnate. The Meshwesh were semi-nomads that lived both in villages and dmi'w 'towns'.The Tehenu lived in the Delta between the Temehu and the Egyptians. The Egyptians referred to all of the people in this area most often by the generic tern "Tehenu".
The TjemhuTemehu which included the Meshwesh controled an area from Cyrenaica to Syria. As a result, in textual material from the reign of Ramses II, there is mention of Temehu towns in Syria. David O'Connor makes it clear that Ramses III referred to these Temehu by the term Tehenu/Tjehnyu (p.64).
The Temehu were very hostile to the Tehenu/Tjehnya. In fact, the first mention of the Meshwesh in Ramses III inscriptions relating to 1188, was the attack of the Tehenu, by the Meshwqesh, Soped and Sea People . David O'Connor makes it clear that the the records of Ramses III make it clear that the Meshweshy "savagely" attacked the Tehenu and looted their cities during their advance to Egypt (p.35 & 105).
The coalition of the Meshweshy had each unit of the army organized into "family or tribal ' units under the leadership of a "great one". As result to understand why the fAsian and Tehenu figures on the Table of Nations are identified differently you have use both the pictorical and textual material from the reign of Ramses III to understand the representations. As a result, Palestianian -Syrian personage or figure D, is labled Tehenu because he was probably a member of one Meshwesh units, thus he was labled Tehenu. The personage that is second from the Egyptians which is labled an Asian, eventhough he is clearly a Tehenu, was probably a member of a Syrian Palestinian unit when he was captured by the Egyptians thusly he was labled Asian. You can find out more about this reality if you check out: David O'Connor, "The nature of Tjemhu (Libyan) society in later New Kingdom; in Libya and Egypt c1300-750 BC, (Ed.) by Athony Leahy (pp.29-113), SOAS Centre of Near and Middle Eastern Studies and the Society for Libyan Studies, 1990.
In the Table of Nation figure B we see the traditional depiction of a Tehenu, the sidelock, shoulder cape and clean face. The Temehu, called Meshwesh are different from the Tehenu and the original Tamehu recorded by the Egyptians prior to the New Kingdom. Below is a Meshwesh
The Meshwesh wore Tehenu traditional costumes but they are not believed to be real Tehenu. The Tehenu and the Temehu usually wore different costumes. In the New Kingdom depictions of the Temehu, the Meshwesh have "long chin beards", like the Syrian-Palestinians and Peoples of the Sea. They wear kilts, sheaths and capes open at the front tied at one shoulder. Like the earlier Tehenu they wore feathers as a sign of High Status.
David O'Connor makes it clear that there was "marked hetergeneity of the Tjemhu" (p.41).
The first attack by Libyans on Egypt were led by the Libu during the 5th year of Ramses III's reign. Diop has provided convincing evidence that the Libu, later migrated into Senegal, where they presenly live near Cape Verde
The difference in dress among the Meshwesh and their hostility toward the Tehenu, have led many researchers to see the Temehu of the New Kingdom as a different group from the original Temehu of Egyptian traditions. O'Connor (p.74) in the work cited above makes it clear that the Temehu in Ramses III day--"[have] hairstyles, dress and apparently ethnic type [that] are markedly different from the Tjehnyu/tjemhu of the Old Kingdom (Osing, 1980,1018-19). Various explanations have been offered: Wainwright, for example, concluded that 'Meshwesh was a mixed tribe of Libu like tribesmen with their native chiefs who become subject to a family of Tjehnu origin'(1962,p.92), while Osing suggested that the New Kingdowm Tjemhu had displaced or absorbed the earlier Tjehnyu but had selectively taken over or retained some Tjehnyu traits, in the case of the rulers for Meshwesh (1980,1019-1020). Dr. O'Connor is of the opinion "that some rulers of the later New Kingdom Tjemhu deliberately adopted traits they discovered from the Egyptians to be chracteristic of ancient Tjehnyu/Tjemhu, so as to increase there prestige, or in some way had these rtraits imposed upon them by the Egyptians" (p.74).
It is my opinion that given the organiztion of the Libyans into mhwt "family or tribal groups', sometime prior to 1230 BC over an extended period of time Indo-European speaking people later to be known as Peoples of the Sea entered Western Asia and Libya and were adopted by Tehenu families. This adoption of the new immigrants by Tehenu/Tamehu probably led to the Meshwesh and Soped adopting Tehenu customs but maintaining their traditional beards,. The original Temehu, like the Libu probably saw the integration of Sea Peoples into Temehu society as a way to increase their number and possibily conquer Egypt. It is interesting to note that the Meshwesh were very sure they might be able to conquor the Egyptians because they brought their cattle and other animals with them when they invaded the country. Moreover whereas the Meshwesh, were semi-nomadic, the Sea Peoples: Akawashu, Lukki, Tursha., Sheklesh, and Sherden remained nomadic. and used the spear and round shield.
The Nehasyu were ancient members of the Tehenu/Temehu. This would explain the reason why the Meshwesh and Nehasyu were mainly bowman. In conclusion, the names for the personages in the Table of Nations from Ramses III tomb were labled correctly. These personages were recorded in the the Tables based on the military and family units were attached too, not the country identifiable by their dress.
Annotated Bibliograpy
Adler,J.(1991 September 23). "African Dreams", Newsweek, pp.42- 45. This magazine articles discussed the controversey surrounding Afrocentrism. Anselin,A.(1984). "Zeus, Ethiopien Minos Tamoul", Carbet Revue Martinique de Sciences Humaines,no. 2:31-50. This articles explains the African origin of the Libyans. It has several very good illustrations of Blacks in ancient Sahara. _______.(1989). "Le Lecon Dravidienne",Carbet Revue Martinique de Sciences Humaines, no.9:7-58. This paper discussed the origins of the Dravidian and their relationship to Africans. Asante,M.K. (1990) Kemet,Afrocentricity,and Knowledge. Trenton ,NJ:Africa World Press. This book provides the theoretical foundations for africalogical studies. _________ (1991). "The Afrocentric idea in Education",Journal of Negro Education,60(2):170-180. The author explains the importance of the Afrocentric field of study for enrichment of the social studies curricula. __________.(December 1991/January 1992). "Afrocentric Curriculum".Educational Leadership, pp.28-31. This article explains the practical reasons supporting the institution of an Afrocentric curriculum within the context of multiculturalism.
Baines,J. (11 August,1991). "Was Civilization made in Africa?" The New York Times Review of Books,pp.12-13. This article attempts to review the work of Bernal and Diop in a negative light. Bernal,M. (1987). Black Athena. New York. Volume 1. Here the author explains his theory that there is need for a new historiography for the Mediterranean which recognizes the multicultural origins of Greece. The author also returns to the ancient model which claimed that the Egyptians were "Blacks". ________. (1991). Black Athena. New York. Volume 2. In this volume Bernal outlines his theory that the founders of Greece were Hyksos (Semitic) people from Egypt. Bonnet,C. (1986). Kerma: Territoire et Metropole. Cairo: Instut Francais D'Archeologie Orientale du Caire. This is a fine examination of the Kerma culture of Nubia which existed in Nubia before the Egyptians established rule in this area. Diop,C.A. (1974). The African Origin of Civilization. (ed. & Trans) by Mercer Cook, Westport:Lawrence Hill & Company. This book outlines Diop's theory of the African origin of Egyptian civilization. _________.(1977). Parente genetique de l'Egyptien Pharaonique et des Languaes Negro-Africaines. Dakar: IFAN ,Les Nouvelles Editions Africaines. This is a very good discussion of the extensive morphological and phonological evidence of unity between Wolof and Egyptian. __________.(1978) The Cultural Unity of Black Africa. Chicago:
Third World Press. This book details the precolombian character of African civilizations, and explains the common cultural expressions they share. ___________.(1986). "Formation of the Berber Branch". In Libya Antiqua. (ed.) by Unesco,(Paris: UNESCO) pp.69-73. In this article Diop explains that the original inhabitants of Libya were Blacks. ____________.(1987). Precolonial Black Africa. (trans. ) by Harold Salemson, Westport: Lawrence Hill & Company. In this book Diop explains the origin and connections between the major Western Sudanic empires and states. These states are compared to European states. ____________.(1988). Nouvelles recherches sur l'Egyptien ancient et les langues Negro-Africaines Modernes. Paris: Presence Africaine. This book provides a number of Diop's theories regarding the relationship between Black-African and Egyptian languages. _____________(1991). Civilization or Barbarism: An Authentic Anthropology. (trans.) by Yaa-Lengi Meema Ngemi and (ed.) by H.J. Salemson and Marjoliiw de Jager, Westport:Lawrence Hill and Company. This book details Diop's theory of the genetic model for the study of African civilization. It also gives a fine discussion of the architecture, mathematics and philosophy of the ancient Egyptians and other African people. Farid,El-Yahky. (1985). "The Sahara and Predynastic Egypt an Overview".The Journal for the Society for the Study Egyptian
Antiquities, 17 (1/2): 58-65. This paper gives a detailed discussion of the affinities between Egyptian civilization and the Saharan civilizations which we call Proto-Saharan. The evidence presented in this paper support the Saharan origin of the Egyptians. Galassi, . (1942). Tehenu. Rome. Galassi explains the history of the Tehenu people forerunners of the Libyans. Graves, Robert. (1980). The Greek Myths. Middlesex:Peguin Books Ltd. 2 volumes. In this volume we see a detailed account of the founding Myths of the ancient Greeks as recorded in Greek literature. Hopper, R.J. (1976). The Early Greeks. New York:Harper & Row Pub. Hopper gives an informative narative on the history of the ancient Greeks. Hochfield,S. & Riesfstahl,E.(1978). (Eds.) Africa in Antiquity: The Arts of Nubia and the Sudan. New York: Brooklyn Museum. 2 vols. This is a fine source of information on the Kushite and Meroitic empires. It also provides many well researched articles and photographs of the Kushites. The evidence in this book shows that the Egyptians and Kushites were one. Hughes,R. (1992, February 3). "The Frying of America". TIME ,pp.44-49. Hughes discussed the threat of multiculturalism to unity of the American people. Jelinek,J. (1985). "Tillizahren,the Key Site of the Fezzanese
Rock Art". Anthropologie (Brno),23(3):223-275. This paper gives a stimulating account of the rock art of the Sahara and the important role the C-Group people played in the creation of this art. Levine,M.M. (April 1992). "The use and abuse of Black Athena", American Historical Review,pp. 440-460. This articles attacks Bernal and the use of Black Athena to estabish a new paradigm for ancient history. Lefkowitz,M. (1992,February 10). "Not out of Africa". The New Republic, pp.29-36. This text deals with the hyptohesis that Greek civilization came from Africa. Lefkowitz contends that Africans failed to play an important role in Greecian civilization. Marriott,M. (1991,August 11). "As a Discipline Advances, Questions Arise on Scholarship". The New York Times. Marriott gives an excellent discussion of the controversey surrounding Afrocentrism. It provides a good discussion of the players pro and against this field of intellectual inquiry. Martel, E. (December 1991/January 1992). "How valid are the Port- land Baseline Essays". Educational Leadership, pp.20-23. Martel gives reasons in this article why he believes that many of the claims of Afrocentrists are wrong. __________.(1991). "Teachers's Corner:Ancient Africa and the Port -land Curriculum Resource",Anthro Notes: National Museum of Natural History(Smithsonian) Bulletin for Teachers 13,
pp.2-6. This text explains why Afrocentrism should be kept out of the schools until it conforms with accepted Eurocentric views about Africana affairs and history. He does argue that the Egyptians were a multiculutural society. Moitt,B. (1989). "Chiekh Anta Diop and the African Diaspora: Historical Continuity and Socio-Cultural Symbolism". Presence Africaine, no. 149-150:347-360. This is an excellent analysis of the influence of Diop on africalogical studies and the European attacks against his research. Nicholson,D. (1992, September 23). "Afrocentrism and the Tribalization of America". The Washington Post, B-l. Nicholson makes the claim that Afrocentrism is causing the fragmentation of America. Okafor,V.O. (1991). " Diop and the African Origin of Civiliza- tion:An Afrocentric Analysis". Journal of Black Studies 22(2):252-268. This book offers excellent guidelines on implimenting the research methods of Diop in africological studies. Parker,G.W. (1917) . "The African Origin of Grecian Civilization ".Journal of Negro History, 2(3):334-344. This short article provides a wealth of historical and lexical evidence for the African origination of Greccian heroes, literature and civilization. ___________. (1981). The Children of the Sun. Baltimore,Md.: Black Classic Press. This book provides a short discussion of the important role of Blacks in the rise of civilization around the world.
Petrie,W.M.F. (1921). Corpus of Prehistoric Pottery. London.
Petrie provides the first detailed categorization of Egyptian pottery and an informative account on the origination of Egypt. Pounder, R.L. (1992,April) "Black Athena 2:History without Rules" American Historical Review, 461-464. This articles attacks the credibility of Bernal's ,Black Athena. Quellec,J-L le. (1985). "Les Gravures Rupestres Du Fezzan (Libye)". L'Anthropologie, 89 (3):365-383. This text deals comprehensively with the dates and spread of specific art themes in the ancient Sahara. Raphael, . 1947. Prehistoric Pottery . New York: Pantheon Book. Raphael provides a thorough explanation of the ceramics of the predynastic Egyptians. Ravitch,D. (1990,Summer). "Multiculturalism:E Pluribus Plures". The American Scholar, pp.337-354. Ravitch argues that multiculturalism is causing America to become ethnicallly polarized, while we abandon many of the values that unite Americans. Schlesinger,A.M. (1992). The Disuniting of America: Reflections on a Multicultural Society. New York: Norton. Schlesinger argues that multiculturalism is bringing about the rise of ethnocentrism in the United States. Snowden,F. (1976). "Ethiopians and the Greco-Roman World". In The
African Diaspora. Washington: Howard University Press. In this paper Snowden discusses the role of Ethiopian slaves in Grecce. ___________. (1992, March 4). "Blacks as seen by Ancient Egyptians, Greek and Roman Artists". (Lecture) Chicago: Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago. In this lecture Snowden continues his theory that the only Blacks in Egyptian and Classical art were slaves. Tounkara,B. (1989). "Problematique du comparatisme egyptien ancien/langues africaines (wolof)". Presence Africaine,nos. 149-150: 313-320. This book discusses the linguistic relationship of wolof and Egyptian. Trigger,B.G. (1987). "Egypt: A Fledging Nation". The Journal of the Society for the Study Egyptian Antiquities, 17 (1/2): 58-65. Trigger documents the rise of Egyptian civilization in the Sahara and Nubia. ____________. (1992). "Brown Athena: A Post Processual Goddess". Current Anthropology, 33(1): 121-123. This article focuses on the misuse of the book Black Athena as a tool to claim the Egyptians were Blacks. Vandier,J. (1952). Manuel d'archeologie Egyptienne. Paris. This is a fine examination of the archaeology of Egypt. Williams,B. (1987). The A-Group Royal Cemetery at Qustul: Cemetery L. Chicago: The Oriental Institute University of Chicago. This excellent text reviews the important Qustul cemetery, which provides a detailed account of the rise of the first world empire in Nubia.
Winkler, H.A. (1938). Rock Drawings of Southern Upper Egypt. London. 2 volumes. This book gives numerous examples of rock art which point to an Egyptian origin in Nubia. Winters, C.A. (1983a). "The Ancient Manding Script". In Blacks in Science:Ancient and Modern. (ed.) by Ivan van Sertima, (New Brunswick: Transaction Books) pp.208-215. This paper discusses the Manding origin for many of the so-called Libyco-Berber inscriptions and explains how these inscriptions can be read. It makes it clear that literacy was widespread in Africa 5000 years ago. __________. (1983b). "Les Fondateurs de la Grece venaient d'Afrique en passant par la Crete". Afrique Histoire (Dakar), no.8:13-18. This rich historical account refutes the idea that Greece was founded by the Indo-European speakers. Winters argues that credit should be given to the African settlers of Anatolia from Libya, Egypt and Palestine. _________. (1983c) "Famous Black Greeks Important in the development of Greek Culture". Return to the Source,2(1):8. In this article Winters' discussed the famous Greeks like Socrates, that were of African/Pelasgian origin. ________. (1984). "Blacks in Europe before the Europeans". Return to the Source, 3(1):26-33. This paper provides insights into the long history of Blacks in Europe, including the Old Europeans, Danubians and other groups. _________.(1985a). "The Indus Valley Writing and related Scripts of the 3rd Millennium BC". India Past and
Present, 2(1):13-19. The author describes the unity of the writing systems used by the Sumerians, Minoans, Egyptians and Harappans. He shows that these scripts have a common ideological origin and that they can all be read due to the genetic unity of the langauges spoken by these people. __________. (1985b). "The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians". Tamil Civilization,3(1):1-9. Winters uses linguistics , historical and archaeological evidence to argue that the Dravidian, Manding and Sumerian speakers originated in the highland regions of the Sahara which he called the "Fertile African Crescent". Many of the culture terms of these groups are discussed and the proto- terms are reconstructed. It also provides numerous maps to delienate the migrations of these people from their archetype homeland. __________. (1988). "Common African and Dravidian Place Name Elements". South Asian Anthropologist, 9(1):33-36. This paper provides an analysis of the common roots toponyms found in Asia of African origin. __________. (1989a). "Tamil, Sumerian, Manding and the Genetic Model". International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics,
18(1):98-127. Winters discusses the genesis of the common culture of the founders of ancient civilizations in Africa and Asia. It also refutes the myth that the Sumerian and Dravidian languages are unrelated to any other languages on earth. Here you will find a detailed explanation of the morphological, semantic and lexical affinities shared by these langauges that indicate their genetic unity. __________. (1989b). "Review of Dr. Asko Parpola's 'The Coming of the Aryans'",International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 18(2):98-127. This anthropological and linguistic account of the prehistoric linguistic-history of South and Central Asia outlines the fallacy of Parpola's theory for an Indo-European founding of the Harappan civilization. He provides numerous examples of the Dravidian and African influences on the Indo-European languages. __________. (1990). "The Dravido-Harappan Colonization of Central Asia". Central Asiatic Journal, 34(1/2):120-144. This paper discussed the settlement of Asia by African people 4500 years ago. Special attention is placed on the type and expression of African civilization in ancient Asia. ___________. (1991). "The Proto-Sahara". The Dravidian Ency- clopaedia, (Trivandrum: International School of Dravidian Linguistics) pp.553-556. Volume l. This is a detailed account of the Proto-Saharan origin of the Elamites, Dravidians, Sumerians, Egyptians and other Black African groups. We also find here a well developed illumination of the cultural features shared by these genetically related groups. Yurco,F. (1989,September/October). "Were the ancient Egyptians Black?". Biblical Archaeological Review, 15(5):24-29,58.
Yurco argues that the Egyptians have always been "light skinned", and that they got darker as you went south into Nubia. Wainwright, G. 1962. The Meshwesh", JEA 48, 89-99.
Osing,J. 1980. "Libyen, Libyer", LA III, 1015-1033.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: This Eurocentric ruse is not outdated, everyday the media projects the Berbers as a white group.
A ruse is outdated when the facts expose it as fallacy - regardless of who repeats it or how often.
The Berber as white-african-race myth has been utterly exploded by 3 concordant discipline/findings.
* the Afrisan language phylum which proves that Berber is and African language, and recently derived from it's East African sister languages.
* the PN2 clade which proves that Berber stem largely from a very recent and relatively small stock of East African men.
* the Saharo-Sudanese Neolithic which proves and independant and pan-African development of cattle domestication, agriculture, pottery making and other material basis of sedantism - precursor to civilisation.
The Berber vary physically because their maternal ancestry varies greatly - from substantially East African in some areas, to West African in others, and actually predominently European in areas - closest to Europe.
Berber maternal ancestry varies greatly reflecting the typical process of migrant [in many cases nomadic] males, intermingling with local, or nearby females.
The logic of Berber origin in East Africa would imply that the original Berber speakers were Black.
This is also consistent with the distribution of Berber Speakers
- the Siwa being the most Easterly group
- the Toureg being the most wide spread
- the Dark Libyans - likely related to both of the above being the 1st referenced in historical text.
- The Toureg being genetically very closely related to contemporary Black south Egyptians and North Sudanese [Beja specifically].
However, even if the earliest Berber were 'green' instead of black the essential point would be the same.
What Berber denotes is a common language which to a degree can be traced to common paternal origin in East Africa.
It does not denote a common skin color, so being black or tawney or white - has no logical bearing on what is Berber.
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What Berber denotes is a common language which to a degree can be traced to common paternal origin in East Africa.
How can you say the languages are related when research indicates that
quote:
Vocabulary Most of the vocabulary is Berber in origin with borrowings from Latin, Arabic, French, Spanish, and other sub-Saharan languages. There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects. see: http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/july/berber.html
If there exist little or no intelligibility between the dialects, the Berber languages are not related.
posted
^^ Your comment here is hard to understand.
The article you cite answers this very question, and reaches a conclusion completely the opposite of what you assert:
The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.
* Berber languages generally have three vowels /a/, /i/, /u/, and two semivowels /y/ and /w/. Vowels can be short or long.
** glottalized consonants, so called because the space between the vocal cords (glottis) is constricted during their pronunciation; implosive consonants produced with the air sucked inward;
*** ejective consonants produced with the air "ejected" or forced out; geminate (doubled) consonants produced by holding them in position longer than for their single counterparts.
**** Grammar Noun phrase Berber nouns have two cases. One case is used for the subject of intransitive verbs, while the other is used for the subject of transitive verbs and objects of prepositions. There are two genders: masculine and feminine. The plural of nouns has a masculine and a feminine form.
Your source answers your questions.
You seem to be at war with your own sources.
Not sure how I can help you here.
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quote: ^^ Your comment here is hard to understand.
The article you cite answers this very question, and reaches a conclusion completely the opposite of what you assert:
The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.
* Berber languages generally have three vowels /a/, /i/, /u/, and two semivowels /y/ and /w/. Vowels can be short or long.
** glottalized consonants, so called because the space between the vocal cords (glottis) is constricted during their pronunciation; implosive consonants produced with the air sucked inward;
*** ejective consonants produced with the air "ejected" or forced out; geminate (doubled) consonants produced by holding them in position longer than for their single counterparts.
**** Grammar Noun phrase Berber nouns have two cases. One case is used for the subject of intransitive verbs, while the other is used for the subject of transitive verbs and objects of prepositions. There are two genders: masculine and feminine. The plural of nouns has a masculine and a feminine form.
Your source answers your questions.
You seem to be at war with your own sources.
Not sure how I can help you here.
The author of this paper said
Vocabulary Most of the vocabulary is Berber in origin with borrowings from Latin, Arabic, French, Spanish, and other sub-Saharan languages. There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects. see: http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/july/berber.html
This is his conclusion not mine. I stand by my statement that if "There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects" the Berber languages are not related .
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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....The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.
Indeed! Stated, and demonstrated.
quote:This is his conclusion not mine.
Yes, but...it's your source not mine.
Based on the evidence presented by your source, I agree with *your* source.
Actually, I don't have a choice since you offer no counter evidence, only a rheotorical question which is clearly answered by your own source, and whose answer you simply choose to ignore.
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posted
LOL And again, foolish Winters does not realize that what he cites explains the very reason for the lack of intelligibility!!
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Vocabulary Most of the vocabulary is Berber in origin with borrowings from Latin, Arabic, French, Spanish, and other sub-Saharan languages. There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects. see: http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/july/berber.html
Non of which changes the FACT that the same sources states: [i]The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.
Seriously guys, Winters must be suffering from dillusions as severe as or perhaps worse than Hore for him to include Olmec of Meso America and Dravidian of south Asia to be Saharan languages, yet exclude Berber which is actually spoken in the Sahara!!
The guy has to be on something.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I would like to learn more about these early Libyans. Other than the Egyptian references to Tehenu, I don't have as much knowledge on Greek references.
Who are the Ammonians again, and what other peoples did the Greeks list as Libyans??...
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I have stated the facts about Berber not being a authentic terminology for describing the Maghrebians but some people ignored the TRUTH and now have thrown themselves into debating about what language the Barbarians speak, litterally that is what you guys are debating when you decide to discuss Berbers and not Maghrebians.
As a Afrocentric studen I choose to follow the FACTS. 1. Remove the Berber ruse which is similar to the Nubia ruse where Eurocentrics invent a NAME and define what fits into the category of the newly minted name then bombard the public with the gimmick. Afrocentrics who follow behind Eurocentric name games will LOSE every time trust me. 2. The inhabitants of Maghreb know who they are and have their own name called TAMAZIGHT, what is so hard about accepting that fact?
Clyde Winters wrote:
quote: This Eurocentric ruse is not outdated, everyday the media projects the Berbers as a white group. In fact the average person would never believe that there are "Black" Berbers
This is why hotep2U began this topic. The topic was began to make it clear that although the media projects the Berbers as a single group of "white Africans", the Berbers themselves do not like the term Berber applied to them, and the speakers of each of the so-called Berber languages have always made it clear that their language and culture is unique and they should not be placed into the same group.
It is time we refer to each of these groups as separate entities : Zenati, Taureg and Kabyle. But until this is done, we must continue to make a distinction between and among the Berbers (who people percieve to "white Africans") and Black Africans.
Excellent analysis, I'm just trying to help others to understand that Maghreb also connects to Kemet also. If anyone is studying Afrika then these facts must be established early on in order to understand the history of Afrika.
Here we have depictions of Libyans from Kemet.
Herodotus Book IV.168-198
quote: These border the Nasamonians on the south: westward along the sea-shore their neighbors are the Macea, who, by letting the locks about the crown of their head grow long, while they clip them close everywhere else, make their hair resemble a crest . In war these people use the skins of ostriches for shields.
1st individual from the left fits this image being described by Herodotus, here we see some more Libyans who wear the feathers though all Libyans DO NOT dress like this:
Herodotus Book IV.168-198
quote: They sacrifice to the Sun and Moon, but not to any other god. This worship is common to all the Libyans
Here we find a form of worship that is unique to the Libyans.
AMAZIGH * self-determined ethnic name of many peoples west of Egypt all the way to the Atlantic and south of the Mediterranean all the way to the Sahel
* possibly derived from MSHWSH, the westernmost people known to the Kmtyw; also taken to be the name of the peoples eponymous ancestor "Mazigh"
* roughly means "free people" or "noble people" in each dialect of these peoples.
IMAZIGHEN plural of Amazigh
TAMAZGHA land of the Imazighen, in general littoral North Africa and inland as far south as to the northern Sahara.
AMAZIGHT tongue of the Imazighen, in particular a dialect in Morocco/Algeria.
TAMAZIGHT in general the languages spoken in TaMazgha.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Hotep2u: I have stated the facts about Berber not being a authentic terminology for describing the Maghrebians but some people ignored the TRUTH and now have thrown themselves into debating about what language the Barbarians speak, litterally that is what you guys are debating when you decide to discuss Berbers and not Maghrebians.
Meghrebian simply means - of the Maghreb, a geographica disignation most particularly for Africa North of the Sahara and West of the Nile.
Thus Maghreb is neither concordant with Berber language speakers, native saharans, native North AFricans, nor Libya- which is the subject of this thread and most of which is not - technically - in the Maghreb.
Magrhebians include Moors, Arabs and Jews, as well as Berbers.
Berber is a multi-ethnic language catagory - which is best likened to Bantu, or Semite.
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posted
BY ~2500 BCE The ancient THHNW (west of delta and lower Egypt) and ancient TMHHW (west of upper Egypt and lower "Nubia" of Kmtyw record apparently weren't Imazighen (Meshwesh).
~1400 BCE By New Kingdom times the THHNW appear to have been absorbed or displaced by the TMHHW who no longer were limited to their first known southern home.
~1300BCE The Meshwesh, an unrecorded entity until the New Kingdom, incorporated the TMHHW into their anti-KM.t confederacy which already included HWA NBW (northcentral and northeast Mediterranean peoples). That Meshwesh were partially of HWA NBW descent is suggested by similar word endings in their names (Some Sea Peoples' names: Ekwesh, Teresh, Shekelesh, Weshesh).
~535 BCE The Libyan Libyans (vs Aithiop Libyans) of Herodotus, and later Greek, Roman, and Byzantine authors, weren't related to the THHNW or TMMHW but rather were related to the Meshwesh judging by the Macae, Maxyes, Mazices, etc.
The modern Imazighen calendar bases its initial year on the assumption of pharaoh Shoshenq, a Meshwesh.
>600 CE Various Kel Amazigh "Berber" clans of Arabic record.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Is this Theran fresco evidence of pre-1600 BCE relations between Aegean HWA NBW and Sirtean/Cyrenaican Meshwesh or Libu/Rebu?Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote: Meghrebian simply means - of the Maghreb, a geographica disignation most particularly for Africa North of the Sahara and West of the Nile.
Thus Maghreb is neither concordant with Berber language speakers, native saharans, native North AFricans, nor Libya- which is the subject of this thread and most of which is not - technically - in the Maghreb.
Magrhebians include Moors, Arabs and Jews, as well as Berbers.
Berber is a multi-ethnic language catagory - which is best likened to Bantu, or Semite.
Maghreb- The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
Maghreb
SYLLABICATION: Ma·ghreb PRONUNCIATION: mgrb VARIANT FORMS: or Ma·ghrib A region of northwest Africa comprising the coastlands and the Atlas Mountains of Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia.
The Maghreb (المغرب العربي ; also rendered Maghrib (or rarely Moghreb''), meaning "western" in Arabic,
Etymology:
The word maghrib is an Arabic term for "of the setting (sun)" from the root ghuroob, meaning "to set" or "to be hidden"
THE SUN SETS IN THE WEST CORRECT? DOES ANYBODY SEE CULTURAL ELEMENTS OF THE ANCIENT EAST AFRIKAN INHABITANTS OF THE NILE VALLEY WITHIN THE NAME "MAGHRIB"?
Remember to the Ancient East Afrikans the WEST signified Sunset known as "MANU" The West/ Country of the Sunset in the Kemetic Language. Kemetic also shortened as MA as in Mshwsh.
Maghrebian or Maghrebi- An inhabitant or thing of the Maghreb.
Maghreb is a Arabic equivalent of the Kemetic word "MA" which is the shortened of "MANU". These words carry a similar meaning also.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber Anthropologist Dana Reynolds contends that the Berbers emerged as the result of admixture between non-African populations who moved into the Maghrib during the second millenium BC and the more ancient African indigenous inhabitants. This would account for the variance noted among the Berbers even in ancient times.
Tamazight are a group of closely related languages mainly spoken in Morocco and Algeria.
Berber/Barbarians is a DISRESPECTFUL terminology concocted by Eurocentrics idiots who ignored the fact that Tamazight was a more acceptable name for the grouping of languages spoken, in the area known in ancient times as MANU,LEBU,Thhmw,Libya and Maghrib so as a Afrocentric student I will ignore the Machiavellian concoctions of fools and work with a name that is satisfactory to the people who actually make up the group being discussed.
Libyans would be confusing also seeing that it denotes a modern day country, though I do accept that Imazighen could be a even better choice versus Maghrebian.
Actually, from left to right the 1st man is a Libyan, the 2nd is a Kushite, the 3rd is a Syrian, the 4th is a Philistine, and the 5th is a Hittite.
You can tell by their dress styles as well as their physical appearance where each man comes from.
quote:1st individual from the left fits this image being described by Herodotus, here we see some more Libyans who wear the feathers though all Libyans DO NOT dress like this:
I don't know about the dress styles, but it should be noted that wearing feathers on the head is a widespread custom in Africa. Predynastic Egyptians are shown wearing feathers and dynastic gods are shown wearing them. Many Nubian peoples are shown wearing feathers and peoples from West Africa, to East Africa, to Central Africa, to South Africa wears feathers.
It is interesting that these white men have adopted this African style, who knows what else they have adopted. The dress style, by the way bears a little similarity to the way cloth is worn in Lower Egypt and certain nomad groups like the Beja.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
And can someone please answer my question...
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Who are the Ammonians again, and what other peoples did the Greeks list as Libyans??...
And who are the Nasamonians; are they related to the Ammonians in someway?
I am very curious about what Libyan peoples were described by Herodotus during this time.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
First let me apologize for using Imazighen where Amazigh belongs. I originally wrote "activist Imazighen" and when editing out the word "actvist" forgot to switch to singular.
My questioning the use of "activist" comes from not knowing when or by who Yennayar, the Amazigh/Berber new year, was instituted. While having no specific date on the calendar, it is celebrated in January. Yennayar is Tamazightized January (Latin). This seems to let on that Yennayar was unknown until at least the Roman era.
It also seems the Imazighen had no calendar and adopted the Roman one. Most peoples' solar, or solar corrected, natural calendars commence with the vernal equinox or other notable event of nature.
As far as I know, the numbering of years is something instituted by Amazigh activists as part of their liberation struggle against Arabization. Looking over the past for a notably important and universal event, the assumption of Shoshenq to pharaohship over Km.t perfectly fit the bill.
Shoshenq was an Egyptian descended from naturalized Meshwesh ancestors. He probably enjoyed old Meshwesh foods and songs but for sure, Tamehh, Libu/Rebu, and Meshwesh were not kingdoms he reigned over. There's no record of him doing anything for or having any interest in Ament (the lands west of KM.t). His famous foreign enterprise was conquering the Aamw and the Hebrews (southern Judahites and northern Israelites) who name him Shiyshaq (שושק), recorded his expeditions against them.
Sheshonq hailed from Bubastis in the eastern delta, a city heavily populated by Meshwesh probably since the days Ramesses III branded their defeated ancestors, suppressed their native tongue, and assigned them to military duties including border guarding against encroachments from Ament.
The date of Shoshenq is about as significant in understanding Amazigh history and people as the date of John Kennedy becoming president of the USA is significant in understanding Irish history and people.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Takruri
quote:
The modern Imazighen calendar bases its initial year on the assumption of pharaoh Shoshenq, a Meshwesh.
Do you think this date is significant in understanding Imazighan history and people?
.
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quote: Sheshonq hailed from Bubastis in the eastern delta, a city heavily populated by Meshwesh probably since the days Ramesses III branded their defeated ancestors, suppressed their native tongue, and assigned them to military duties including border guarding against encroachments from Ament.
The date of Shoshenq is about as significant in understanding Amazigh history and people as the date of John Kennedy becoming president of the USA is significant in understanding Irish history and people.
Thanks for another detailed and informative post.
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
It's true that a particular bird's feather was the plume of choice for TMHHW nobility.
It's not a matter of refutation but clarification. The mdw ntr for Ament/Imnt was not just any feather nor was it a feather alone. The initial glyph itself has three components: 1) a specific "tmhhw" type feather atop 2) the semi-circle with 3) sidelocks underneath It takes the entire combination to designate Ament/Imnt/the West/deadland.
[JPEG OF AMENT GLYPHS TO GO HERE ONCE FOUND]
Without a doubt the particular feather and sidelocks immediately call to mind the Tmhhw peoples inhabiting the western oases nearest the Nile.
What's an unjustifiable stretch of the data is to suppose that every type of feather not even remotely resembling the "tmhhw feather" is representative of eastern Libyans or their influence.
The earliest iconography of western delta/eastern Libyans -- the Thhnw -- do not depict them with feathers of any kind. See the art from the reign of Sahure for Old Kingdom "Libyans." Only the goddess Nfrt Imnt has the feather and that's for part of the word Imnt.
Why was a feather used? Those familiar with mdw rn (and Wally will correct me if I'm wrong) know that the sound "a" or "i" was represented by a feather. There's no way to spell Ament/Imnt without the initial glyph being a feather. The "//" for "i" sound was usually used internally not as an initial glyph. It's fortuitous that some eastern Libyans -- usually their chieftans -- adorned themselves with a plume. Kind of like a pictorial pun.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Hotep2u: here we see some more Libyans who wear the feathers ...
... it should be noted that wearing feathers on the head is a widespread custom in Africa.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote: People you fail to grasp the argument at hand here.
The word Africa is based upon the name of a NATIVE ROMAN god.
This precludes any other consideration you may raise.
The name Africus is not based on any external mythology or source. This is confirmed by the simple fact that it is part of the "di indigetes" pantheon.
Do you understand what this phrase means?
It means NATIVE or indigenous gods: native to the Latins.
If you can overcome this observation by all means let us have your argument. If not, please publicly concede that the word African is an inappropriate appellation for original human beings
Please note that before the Greeks also used the name Libya to describe the area in question.
quote: ROMAN. AFRICA The Romans gave the name of Africa to that part of the world which the Greeks called Libya (At131)n). It comprised the whole of the portion of the African continent known to the ancients, except Egypt and Ethiopia. But besides this general sense, which occurs in Pliny (iii. 3),3), Pomponius Mela (i. 8) and other authors, the official and administrative language used the word Africa in a narrower sense, which is noticed below.
The term was certainly borrowed by the Romans from the language of the natives. In Latin literature it was employed for the first time by the poet Ennius, who wrote in the interval between the First and Second Punic Wars (Ann. vi.; Sat. iii.). By him the term was confined to the territory of Carthage and the regions composing the eastern group of the Atlas.
Among the numerous conjectures which have been made as to the etymology of the term Africa ('Acppucii) may be quoted that which derives it from the Semitic radical . vi (" separate "), Africa being considered, in this connexion, as a Phoenician settlement " separated " from the mother country, Asiatic Phoenicia. It has also been held that the word Africa comes from friqi, farikia (the country of fruit).
The best hypothesis in the writer's opinion is that maintained by Charles Tissot, who sees in the word " Africa " the name of the great Berber tribe, the Aourigha (whose name would have been pronounced Afarika), the modern Aouraghen, now driven back into the Sahara, but in ancient times the principal indigenous element of the African empire of Carthage (Tissot, Geogr. comp. i. 389).
****Thus Africa was originally, in the eyes of the Romans and Carthaginians alike, the country inhabited by the great tribe of Berbers or Numidians called Afarik. *******Cyrenaica, on the east, attached to Egypt, was then excluded from it, and, similarly, Mauretania, on the west.
At the time of the Third Punic War the Africa of the Carthaginians was but a fragment of their ancient native empire.
It comprised the territory bounded by a vague line running from the mouth of the Tusca (Wad el Kebir), opposite the island of Tabraca (Tabarca), as far as the town of Thenae (Tina), at the mouth of the Gulf of Gabes. The rest of Africa had passed into the hands of the kings of Numidia, who were allies of the Romans.
After the capture of Carthage by Scipio (146 B.C.) this territory was erected into a Roman province, and a trench, the fossa regia, was dug to mark the boundary of the Roman province of Africa and the dominions of the Numidian princes. There have been discovered (1907) the remains of this ditch protected by a low wall or a stone dyke; some of the boundary stones which marked its course, and inscriptions mentioning it, have also been found.
From Testur on the Mejerda the fossa regia can be followed by these indications for several miles along the Jebel esh-Sheid. The ditch ran northward to Tabarca and southward to Tina. The importance of the discoveries lies in the fact that the ditch which in later times divided the provinces of Africa vetus and Africa nova was at the time of the Third Punic War the boundary of Carthaginian territory (R. Cagnat, " Le fosse des frontieres romaines " in Melanges Boissier, 1905, p. 227; L. Poinssot in Comptes rendus de l'Acad. des Inscript. et Belles Lettres, 1907, P . 466; Classical Review, 1907, December, p. 255).
The government of the Roman province thus delimited was entrusted to a praetor or pro praetor, of whom several are now known, e.g. P. Sextilius, pro praetor Africae, according to coins of Hadrumetum of the year 94 B.C. The towns which had fought on the side of the Romans during the Third Punic War were declared civitates liberae, and became exceedingly prosperous. They were Utica (Bu Shatir), Hadrumetum (Susa), Thapsus (Dimas), Leptis Minor (Lemta), Achulla (Badria), Uzalis (about 11 m. from Utica) and Theudalis. Those towns, however, which had remained faithful to Carthage were destroyed, like Carthage itself.
After the Jugurthine war in 106, the whole of the regio Tripolitana, comprising Leptis Magna (Lebda), Oea (Tripoli), Sabrata, and the other towns on the littoral of the two Syrtes, appears to have been annexed to the Roman province in a more or less regular manner (Tissot ii. 21).
The battle of Thapsus in 46 made the Romans definitely masters of Numidia, and the spheres of administration were clearly marked out. Numidia was converted into a new province called " Africa Nova," and of this province the historian Sallust was appointed proconsul and invested with the imperium. From that time the old province of Africa was known as " Africa Vetus " or " Africa Propria." This state of affairs, however, lasted but a short time. In 31 B.C. Octavius gave up Numidia, or Africa Nova, to King Juba II. Five years later Augustus gave Mauretania and some Gaetulian districts to Juba, and received in exchange Numidia, which thus reverted to direct Roman control. Numidia, however, no longer formed a distinct government, but was attached to the old province of Africa.
From 25 B.C. the Roman province of Africa comprised the whole of the region between the mouth of the Ampsaga (Wad Rummel, Wad el Kebir) on the west, and the two tumuli called the altars of the Philaeni, the immutable boundary between Tripolitana and Cyrenaica, on the east (Tissot ii. 261). In the partition of the government of the provinces of the Roman empire between the senate and the emperor, Africa fell to the senate, and was henceforth administered by a proconsul.
Subordinate to him were the legati pro consule, who were placed at the head of districts called dioceses. At first there were only three dioceses: Carthaginiensis, Hipponiensis (headquarters Hippo Diarrhytus, now Bizerta), and Numidica (headquarters Cirta, now Constantine). At a later date the diocesis Hadrumetina was formed, and perhaps at some date unknown the diocesis Tripolitana.
The province of Africa was the only senatorial province whose governor had originally been invested with military powers. The proconsul of Africa, in fact, had command of the legio III. Augusta and the auxiliary corps. But in A.D. 37 Caligula deprived the proconsul of his military powers and gave them to the imperial legate (legatus Augusti pro praetore provinciae Africae), who was nominated directly by the emperor, and whose special duty it was to guard the frontier zone (Tacitus, Hist. iv. 48; Dio Cass. lix. 20). The headquarters of the imperial legate were originally at Cirta and afterwards at Lambaesa (Lambessa).
The military posts were drawn up in echelon along the frontier of the desert, especially along the southern slopes of the Aures, as far as Ad Majores (Besseriani), and on the Tripolitan frontier as far as Cydamus (Ghadames), forming an immense arc extending from Cyrenaica to Mauretania.
A network of military routes, constructed and kept in repair by the soldiers, led from Lambaesa in all directions, and stretched along the frontier as far as Leptis Magna, passing Theveste (Tebessa), Thenae and Tacape (Gabes). The powers of the proconsul, however, extended scarcely beyond the ancient Africa Vetus and the towns on the littoral. Towards 194 Septimius Severus completed the reform of Caligula by detaching from the province of Africa the greater part of Numidia to constitute a special province governed by a procurator, subordinate to the imperial legate and resident at Cirta (Tissot ii. 34). This province was called Numidia Cirtensis, as opposed to Numidia Inferior or proconsular Numidia.
In Diocletian's great reform of the administrative system of the empire, the whole of Roman Africa, with the exception of Mauretania Tingitana (which was attached to the province of Spain), constituted a single diocese subdivided into six provinces: Zeugitana (Carthage), Byzacium (Hadrumetum, now Susa), Numidia Cirtensis (Cirta, Constantine), Tripolitana (Tripolis), Mauretania Sitifensis (Sitifis, Setif), and Mauretania Caesariensis (Caesarea, now Cherchel).
These provinces were administered, according to circumstances, by a praeses of senatorial rank, a legatus pro praetore, or a vir clarissimus consularis. Some changes were eventually necessitated by the wars with the Moors and the Vandals. By a treaty concluded in 476, the emperor Zeno recognized Genseric as master of all Africa.
Reconquered by Belisarius in 534, Africa formed, under the name of praefectura Africae, one of the great administrative districts of the Byzantine empire. It was subdivided into six provinces, which were placed under the authority of the praetorian prefect of Africa.
These provinces were Zeugitana (the former Proconsularis), Carthage, Byzacium, Tripolitana, Numidia and 1Vlauretania. The civil government was carried on by consulares or praesides, while the military government was in the hands of four duces militum, who made strenuous efforts to drive out the barbarians. The country was studded thickly with burgi(small forts) and clausurae (long walls), the ruins of which still subsist.
In 647 the Arabs penetrated into Ifrikia, which was destined to fall for ever out of the grasp of the Romans. In 697 Carthage was taken.
The bulk of the population of Roman Africa was invariably composed of three chief elements: the indigenous Berber tribes, the ancient Carthaginians of Phoenician origin and the Roman colonists.
The Berber tribes, whose racial unity is attested by their common spoken language and by the comparatively numerous Berber inscriptions that have come down to us, bore in ancient times the generic names of Numidians, Gaetulians and Moors or Maurusiani. Herodotus mentions a great number of these tribes. During the Roman period, according to Pliny, there were settlements of 26 indigenous tribes extending from the Ampsaga as far as Cyrenaica.
The much more detailed list of Ptolemy enumerates 39 indigenous tribes in the province of Africa and 25 in Mauretania Caesariensis. Ammianus Marcellinus, Procopius and Flavius Cresconius Corippus give still further names.
Besides the Afri (Aourigha) of the territory of Carthage, the principal tribes that took part in the wars against the Romans were the Lotophagi, the Garamantes, the Maces, the Nasamones in the regions of the S.E., the Misulani or Musulamii (whence the name Mussulman), the Massyli and the Massaesyli in the E., who were neighbours of the Moors. The non-nomads of these Libyan tribes dwelt in huts made of stakes supporting plaited mats of rush or asphodel.
These dwellings, which were called mapalia, are the modern gourbis. African epigraphy has revealed the names of some of their deities: deus invictus Aulisva; the god Motmanius, associated with Mercury; the god Lilleus; Baldir Augustus; Kautus pater; the goddess Gilva, identified with Tellus, and Ifru Augustus (Tissot i. 486).
The Johannis of Corippus mentions three native divinities: Sinifere, Mastiman and Gurzil. There were also local divinities in all the principal districts. The rock bas-reliefs and other monuments showing native divinities are rare, and give only very summary representations.
Dolmens, however, occur in great numbers in Tunisia and the province of Constantine. Tumuli, too, are found throughout northern Africa, the"most celebrated being that near Cherchel, the Kubr-er-Rumia (" tomb of the Christian lady "), which was regarded by Pomponius Mela as the royal burying-place of the kings of Numidia.
During the Roman period the ancient Carthaginians of Phoenician origin and the bastard population termed by ancient authors Libyo-Phoenicians, like the modern Maltese, invariably formed the predominant population of the towns on the littoral, and retained the Punic language until the 6th century of the Christian era.
The municipal magistrates took the title of sufetes in place of that of duumvirs, and in certain towns the Christian bishops were obliged to know the lingua Punica, since it was the only language that the people understood.
Nevertheless, the Roman functionaries, the army and the colonists from Italy soon brought the Latin element into Africa, where it flourished with such vigour that, in the 3rd century, Carthage became the centre of a Romano-African civilization of extraordinary literary brilliancy, which numbered among its leaders such men as Apuleius, Tertullian, Arnobius, Cyprian, Augustine and many others.
Carthage regained its rank of capital of Africa under Augustus, when thousands of Roman colonists flocked to the town. Utica became a Roman colony under Hadrian, and the civitates liberae, municipia, castella, pagi and turres were peopled with Latins.
The towns of the ancient province of Africa which received coloniae were very numerous: Abitensis (civitas Avittensis Bibba), Bisica Lucana (Tastour), Byzacium, Capsa (Gafsa), Carthage, Cuina, Curubis (Kurba), Hadrumetum (Susa), Hippo Diarrhytus or Zarytus (Bizerta), Leptis Magna (Lebda), Maxula (Ghades, Rades or Gades),Neapolis(Nabel, Nebeul), Oea (Tripoli), Sabrata (Zoara), colonic Scillitana (Ghasrin), Sufes (Sbiba), Tacape (Gabes),Thaenae or Thenae (Tina), Thelepte (Medinet Kedima), Thugga (Dugga), Thuburbo maius (Kasbat), Thysdrus (El Jem), Uthina (Wadna) and Vallis (Median). Of the municipia may be mentioned Gigthis or Gigthi (Bu Grara), Thibussicensium Bure (Tebursuk), Zita and the turris Tamalleni (Telmin).
The province of Numidia was at first colonized principally by the military settlements of the Romans. Cirta (Constantine) and Bulla Regia (Hammam Darraj), its chief towns, received coloniae of soldiers and veterans, as well as Theveste (Tebessa) and Thamugas (Timgad). The fine ruins which have been discovered at the last-mentioned place have earned for it the surname of the African. Pompeii (see below).
Aourigha tribe would be pronounced Afarika by the Romans.
Now please take a look at a picture of a coin that depicts the deity that personified AFRIKA.
The Deity on the right is FEMININE and not a Male with Wings, as we know that Africus is depicted as a Masculine deity with WINGS.
Notice the symbolism for Africa were quite consistent with earlier LIBYAN symbols.
707 you can continue denying the truth and stick to your Roman rain deity associated with the south-west wind from Rome though you cannot show any evidence to prove your claim, I have given you a picture of the deity associated with Africa and it is NOT consistent with the depiction of Africus so you have not proved your claim 707.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [QB] Early Saharans
The original inhabitants of the Sahara where the Kemetic civilization originated were Blacks not Berbers or Indo-European speakers.
Yes, I agree that the orginal North African population were Black Africans.
They would not have spoken Berber or Ancient Egyptian or any relatively modern language, however Berber and Ancient Egyptian are equally African languages - and modern Berber speakers and Upper Egyptians are either partly or mainly descendant of ancient Saharan and other Africans.
quote: These Blacks formerly lived in the highland regions of the Fezzan and Hoggar until after 4000 BC. This ancient homeland of the Dravidians
That last part is simply and idea' fixee' on your par.
There is no evidence that Dravidians lived in the sahara.
There is ample proof that Dravidians are descendant from paleolithic Eurasians....meaning there ancestors have lived in Eurasia and not in Africa for at least the last 50 thousand years.... which is looonnng prior to the development of the Dravidian language in culture.
This explains why there are no Dravidians in Africa, no Dravidian languages in Africa, and no commnon/recent lineages between Dravidians and Africans.
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quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Blacks formerly lived in the highland regions of the Fezzan and Hoggar until after 4000 BC. This ancient homeland of the Dravidians --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That last part is simply and idea' fixee' on your par.
There is no evidence that Dravidians lived in the sahara.
There is ample proof that Dravidians are descendant from paleolithic Eurasians....meaning there ancestors have lived in Eurasia and not in Africa for at least the last 50 thousand years.... which is looonnng prior to the development of the Dravidian language in culture.
This explains why there are no Dravidians in Africa, no Dravidian languages in Africa, and no commnon/recent lineages between Dravidians and Africans.
You know this is untrue the archaeological, skeletal, and linguistic evidence all point to an African origin for the Dravidian speakers as pointed out in the earlier discussions on this issue in ES. See below ES Dravidian African DiscussionPosts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
^LOL Indeed, all the wishful thinking in the world will not refute the evidence that Dravidians, Elamites, and Sumerians were Eurasian peoples who are just as much related to Africans as Chinese or Scandinavians.
Now I suggest you start talking REAL facts about the ancient Libyans, since that is the topic of this thread that you have revived.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: This Eurocentric ruse is not outdated, everyday the media projects the Berbers as a white group.
A ruse is outdated when the facts expose it as fallacy - regardless of who repeats it or how often.
The Berber as white-african-race myth has been utterly exploded by 3 concordant discipline/findings.
* the Afrisan language phylum which proves that Berber is and African language, and recently derived from it's East African sister languages.
* the PN2 clade which proves that Berber stem largely from a very recent and relatively small stock of East African men.
* the Saharo-Sudanese Neolithic which proves and independant and pan-African development of cattle domestication, agriculture, pottery making and other material basis of sedantism - precursor to civilisation.
The Berber vary physically because their maternal ancestry varies greatly - from substantially East African in some areas, to West African in others, and actually predominently European in areas - closest to Europe.
Berber maternal ancestry varies greatly reflecting the typical process of migrant [in many cases nomadic] males, intermingling with local, or nearby females.
The logic of Berber origin in East Africa would imply that the original Berber speakers were Black.
This is also consistent with the distribution of Berber Speakers
- the Siwa being the most Easterly group
- the Toureg being the most wide spread
- the Dark Libyans - likely related to both of the above being the 1st referenced in historical text.
- The Toureg being genetically very closely related to contemporary Black south Egyptians and North Sudanese [Beja specifically].
However, even if the earliest Berber were 'green' instead of black the essential point would be the same.
What Berber denotes is a common language which to a degree can be traced to common paternal origin in East Africa.
It does not denote a common skin color, so being black or tawney or white - has no logical bearing on what is Berber.
Sup Rasol. Thanks for the info. Its on point..... .
Concerning you and Dr. Winters, truly, I believe that you guys are basically saying the same thing. For example(I'm not sure if I am even close to being right on this.....? Nonetheless, here it goes.....), you and Dr. Winters might say that indeed the Dravidans E. Indians are Black. But perhaps you, Rasol, would say that they are Black, but they are Indian, whereas Dr. Winters is saying that though they are Indian, they are African in origin, hence their African heritage(blood....whatever) ought to be recoginized and acknowledged(in the same way that some Black Americans say that they are African, not because they have ever lived or even been to Africa, but because their lineage stems from Africa......Dr. Winters is saying that it is the same type of stuff concerning the Dravidians).
So I think that you guys are in the same "sphere" of thought. It is just perhaps that Dr. Winters is more radical and Rasol is more "middle of the road". Both are ok . Malcolm and Martin wanted the same thing. But they had two different methods to achieve the mutual objective. That is my opinion about you brothas........Salaam
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quote:Concerning you and Dr. Winters, truly, I believe that you guys are basically saying the same thing.
That's rationalising. Of course we aren't saying the same thing.
quote:Dr. Winters is saying that though they are Indian, they are African in origin
More rationalising. You are evading and not addressing the LIE that Winters is perpetrating.
Winters is saying that Dravidians lived in the sahara in neolithic to historical times - aka 3000 BC ~.
That is a lie.
Plain and simple.
Trying to cover for that lie by denoting the African origins of homo-sapiens [species] is and and example of a red hering.
A red hering is a way of distracting from the issue at hand.
Winters lie is the equivelant of stating that the Swedes are African in origin - claiming that they founded dynastic Egypt, in 3000 bc - and then attempting to make excuses for the lie, by siting the common African origins of all human beings, which has nothing to do with the fact that there are no Swedes native to AFrica and never have been.
The Swedes and Dravidians bothed originated in Eurasia, at the very time when Winters claims that Dravidians lived in Africa.
It's simply a lie, no matter how one attempts to make [bad] excuses for it.
quote:Swedes, Eskimo and Dradiva hence their African heritage(blood....whatever) ought to be recoginized and acknowledged
All human beings have and African heritage - because the human species is African in origin.
This does not justify the claim that Dravidian language or ethnic group originate in Africa.
Further, this has nothing to do with Winters lie - that Dravidians lived in the neolithic sahara.
It's just as much of a lie to claim Dravidians lived in the sahara as it is to claim that Eskimo lived there.
There are and were no Eskimo, Chinese or Dravidians living the Sahara -> ever. Period.
Anyone who claims otherwise is a bald faced fibber.
A lie is lie.
Why make excuses for lies?
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Juba IJuba I (c. 85–46 B.C.) was the son and successor of Numidian King Hiempsal II, the father of King Juba II (25 B.C. – AD 23) of Mauretania, and the grandfather of King Ptolemy of Mauretania (23–40) and Princess Drusilla of Mauretania.
In 81 Hiempsal had been driven from his throne, soon afterwards, Pompey is sent to Africa by Sulla to reinstate Hiempsal as king in Numidia, because of this Hiempsal and later Juba I become Pompey’s ally. This alliance is strengthened during a visit by Juba to Rome where Julius Caesar insults him by pulling on his beard, and still further in 50 BC, when the tribune Gaius Scribonius Curio openly proposes that Numidia should be sold privately. In August 49, Caesar’s sent Curio to take Africa from the Republicans, over-confidence and holding the governor of Africa, Publius Attius Varus (Varus) in low esteem he takes fewer legions than he has been given. In the Battle of the Bagradas River (49 BC), Curio led his army in a bold, uphill attack which swiftly routed Varus' army and in the process wounds Varus. Encouraged by this success, Curio acted on what proved to be faulty intelligence, and attacked what he believed to be a detachment of Juba's army. In fact, the bulk of the king's forces were there and, after an initial success, Curio's forces were ambushed and virtually annihilated by Saburra (Juba's military commander). Curio was surrounded with the remnants of his troops on a hilltop and died in the fighting. Only a few are able to escape on their ships, and King Juba takes several senator captives back to Numidia for display and execution.
With the arrival of Caesar in Africa, Juba orginally planned to join Scipio, but his kingdom was invaded by Bocchus II and Sittius, he therfore left only 30 elephants behind and marched home to save his country.
Scipio knew he couldn't fight without more troops, sent a desperate messages to Juba for assistance. Juba immediately left the command of his kingdom's defence with Sabura, and join Scipio with 3 legions, light infantry, 1000 cavalry and 30 elephants for the Battle of Thapsus but camped away from Scipio's main lines. Seeing the certain defeat of Scipio's army, Juba did not take part in the battle and fled with his 30,000 men. Having fled with the Roman general Petreius and finding their retreat cut off, they engaged in one on one combat. The idea was that one would meet an honorable death. Juba won the fight, then commited suicide, assisted by a slave.
Juba II
Juba II (Iuba in Latin; Ιóβας (Ιóβα) or Ιουβας in Greek)[1] or Juba II of Numidia (52-50 BC - AD 23 ) was a king of Numidia and then later moved to Mauretania. His first wife was Cleopatra Selene (II), the last Ptolemaic Monarch and only daughter to Greek Ptolemaic Queen Cleopatra VII of Egypt and Roman triumvir Mark Antony.
Early life Juba II was the only child and heir to King Juba I of Numidia, (a king of Berber descent from North Africa). His mother is unknown. In 46 BC, his father committed suicide as he was defeated by Julius Caesar (in Thapsus, North Africa) and Numidia became a Roman Province.[1] His father was an ally to the Roman General Pompey the Great. Juba II claimed to be a descendant to the sister of General Hannibal (Scol. Lucan, Pharsalia 8.287). Juba II claimed to be a descendant to the sister of General Hannibal Juba II was brought to Rome by Julius Caesar and took part in Caesar’s triumphal procession. In Rome, he learned Latin and Greek, became romanized and was granted Roman citizenship.[1] Through dedication to his studies, he is said to have become one of Rome's best educated cit
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Ash was the ancient Berber god of oases, and thus was viewed as a benign deity. Flinders-Petrie in his 1923 expedition to the Saqqara (also spelt Sakkara) found several references to Ash in wine jar seals: I am refreshed by this Ash was a common inscription.
In particular, he was identified by the Ancient Egyptians as the god of the Libhu and Tinhu tribes, known as the people of the oasis. Consequently Ash was known as the lord of Libya, as the area, occupied by the Libhu and Tinhu tribes, corresponds roughly with the area of modern Libya. It is also possible that he was worshipped in Ombos, as their original chief deity.
In Egyptian Mythology, as the oases, Ash was identified as lover of Set, who was originally god of the desert, and was seen as protector of the Sahara. The first known recorded mention of Ash dates to the Protodynastic Period, but by the late 2nd Dynasty, his importance grew, and he was seen as protector of the royal estates, since the related god Set, in Lower Egypt, was regarded as the patron deity of royalty itself. Ash's importance was such that he was mentioned even until the 26th Dynasty.
Ash was usually depicted as a human, whose head was one of the desert creatures, variously being shown as a lion, vulture, hawk, or snake. Indeed, depictions of Ash are the earliest known depictions, in ancient Egyptian art, to show a deity as a human with the head of an animal. On occasion, Ash and Set were depicted similarly, as the currently unidentified Set-Animal.
Some depictions of Ash show him as having multiple heads, unlike other Egyptian deities, although some compound depictions were occasionally shown connecting gods to Min. In an article in the journal Ancient Egypt (in 1923), and again in an appendix to her book, The Splendor that was Egypt, Margret Murray expands on such depictions, and draws a parallel to a Scythian deity, who is referenced in Sebastian Meunster's Cosmographia Universalis.
Ash was usually depicted as a human, whose head was one of the desert creatures, variously being shown as a lion, vulture, hawk, or snake. Indeed, depictions of Ash are the earliest known depictions, in ancient Egyptian art, to show a deity as a human with the head of an animal
Also known as AS
Berber pantheon The traditional Berber pantheon contains a variety of gods. Although most Berbers are now Muslim (and none profess paganism), vestiges of their previous religion remain, including traditions such as "the bride of Anzar" (literally "rainbow", originally believed to have been a Berber god) among the Kabyles.
Afrika: a Berber goddess. Agurzil (alternatively, Gurzil): Berber god of war, represented by a head of bull at the Luwata nomads. This same god is taken by Dihya in her battles against the Arabs. Amun: An oracle god, introduced by the Libyans into Egypt Antaeus : A giant from Libya, also found in Greek Mythology Anzar: god of the rain among the Kabyles. Berber: The first god Guraya: Name of a saint in Kabylie; sponsor of Bgayet and is also found in Tipasa. Idir: Name of a divinity. From Edder, to live, which is also found in Baliddir:"the alive God".(Ball or Baal:suffix from Phoenician meaning: god or lord) Iguc: or Iyuc (as is frequent in Berber, G, becomes Y, etc), god of the rain at Berghwata of Morocco. Lilu: a Berber god, synonymous with rainwater. Probably alternative of Illu, a god among the Tuaregs. Makurgun: Berber god, of Punico-Berber origin. Ifru: the ethymology of this name is probably related to the verb Fru: to regulate, solve, sort. Maqurtum: an Amazigh God of Punico-Berber origin. Nabel: name of a divinity, Sinifer: God of war among the Luwata. Suggen: or Seggen, name of a Berber divinity, name which is nowadays found in Aďn Me Lila - Algeria. Tililwa: name of a Berber divinity. Warsisima: an Amazigh Berber God, this name is a composed name: name + prefix: wer+isem (without name) Warsutima: name of a Berber divinity, made up of wer + utim. Wihinam: name of a Berber divinity. Yam: name of a Berber divinity. Yukus: Berber god, alternative: Yakuc, Yunan: Berber god. Yur: the moon, but also a Berber god.
The Kabyl people belong to the Berbers of North Africa. They are native to the Djurdjura Mountains of Algeria. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Contents The First Human Beings.
The Beginning of Agriculture.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Return to D. L. Ashliman's folktexts, a library of folktales, folklore, fairy tales, and mythology. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The First Human Beings
[QUOTE] In the beginning there were only one man and one woman and they lived not on the earth but beneath it. They were the first people in the world and neither knew that the other was of another sex.
One day they both came to the well to drink. The man said, "Let me drink."
The woman said, "No, I'll drink first. I was here first."
The man tried to push the woman aside. She struck him. They fought. The man smote the woman so that she dropped to the ground. Her clothing fell to one side. Her thighs were naked.
The man saw the woman lying strange and naked before him. He saw that she had a taschunt. He felt that he had a thabuscht. He looked at the taschunt and asked, "What is that for?"
The woman said, "That is good."
The man lay upon the woman. He lay with the woman eight days.
After nine months the woman bore four daughters. Again, after nine months, she bore four sons, And again four daughters and again four sons. So at last the man and the woman had fifty daughters and fifty sons. The father and the mother did not know what to do with so many children. So they sent them away.
The fifty maidens went off together towards the north. The fifty young men went off together towards the east. After the maidens had been on their way northwards under the earth for a year, they saw a light above them. There was a hole in the earth.
The maidens saw the sky above them and cried, "Why stay under the earth when we can climb to the surface where we can see the sky?"
The maidens climbed up through the hole and on to the earth.
The fifty youths likewise continued in their own direction under the earth for a year until they, too, came to a place where there was a hole in the crust and they could see the sky above them.
The youths looked at the sky and cried, "Why remain under the earth when there is a place from which one can see the sky?"
So they climbed through their hole to the surface.
Thereafter the fifty maidens went their way over the earth's surface and the youths went their way and none knew aught of the others.
At that time all trees and plants and stones could speak. The fifty maidens saw the plants and asked them, "Who made you?"
And the plants replied, "The earth."
The maidens asked the earth, "Who made you?"
And the earth replied, "I was already here."
During the night the maidens saw the moon and the stars and they cried, "Who made you that you stand so high over us and over the trees? Is it you who give us light? Who are you, great and little stars? Who created you? Or are you, perhaps, the ones who have made everything else?" All the maidens called and shouted. But the moon and the stars were so high that they could not answer.
The youths had wandered into the same region and could hear the fifty maidens shouting.
They said to one another, "Surely here are other people like ourselves. Let us go and see who they are." And they set off in the direction from which the shouts had come.
But just before they reached the place they came to the bank of a great stream. The stream lay between the fifty maidens and the fifty youths. The youths had, however, never seen a river before, so they shouted. The maidens heard the shouting in the distance and came towards it.
The maidens reached the other bank of the rive
Posts: 477 | Registered: Dec 2005
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I find this passage of Ash, the Egyptian god of Libya to be the most interesting.
quote:Ash was usually depicted as a human, whose head was one of the desert creatures, variously being shown as a lion, vulture, hawk, or snake. Indeed, depictions of Ash are the earliest known depictions, in ancient Egyptian art, to show a deity as a human with the head of an animal..
This calls to mind the other artifacts found with the said 'Black Mummy', Uan Muhuggiag. These artifacts include depictions of gods with human bodies and animal heads but they date back much earlier than the oldest known Egyptian objects of similar form. One of these early Saharan gods had a jackal or canine head which calls to mind Apnu (Anubis) the god of mummification.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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And again, foolish Winters does not realize that what he cites explains the very reason for the lack of intelligibility!!![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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