posted
Mitochondrial DNA Variation in Mauritania and Mali and their Genetic Relationship to Other Western Africa Populations A. M. González1,*, V. M. Cabrera1, J. M. Larruga1, A. Tounkara2, G. Noumsi2, B. N. Thomas3 and J. M. Moulds4
Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) variation was analyzed in Mauritania and Mali, and compared to other West African samples covering the considerable geographic, ethnic and linguistic diversity of this region. The Mauritanian mtDNA profile shows that 55% of their lineages have a west Eurasian provenance, with the U6 cluster (17%) being the best represented. Only 6% of the sub-Saharan sequences belong to the L3A haplogroup a frequency similar to other Berber speaking groups but significantly different to the Arabic speaking North Africans. The historic Arab slave trade may be the main cause of this difference. Only one HV west Eurasian lineage has been detected in Mali but 40% of the sub-Saharan sequences belong to cluster L3A. The presence of L0a representatives demonstrates gene flow from eastern regions. Although both groups speak related dialects of the Mande branch, significant genetic differences exist between the Bambara and Malinke groups. The West African genetic variation is well structured by geography and language, but more detailed ethnolinguistic clustering suggest that geography is the main factor responsible for this differentiation.
quote:Originally posted by *Charlie Bass*: Mitochondrial DNA Variation in Mauritania and Mali and their Genetic Relationship to Other Western Africa Populations A. M. González, V. M. Cabrera, J. M. Larruga, A. Tounkara, G. Noumsi, B. N. Thomas and J. M. Moulds
quote: One can ask if these differences between Berber and Arab speakers could be the result of a demic difussion during the Muslim Arab occupation of North Africa. However, the L3A subclades found in Arab (Di Rienzo & Wilson, 1991; Richards et al. 2000) and Yemen populations (Di Rienzo & Wilson, 1991; Kivisild et al. 2004) seems to have a recent eastern Africa provenance (Richards et al. 2003; Kivisild et al. 2004). Furthermore, the more abundant L3A subclades in Egypt have their closest matches in eastern sub-Saharan Africa and with those from Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia from western and central sub-Saharan Africa
Historic Arab slavetrade or forced servitude.
quote: So, it seems that the most probable origin of these L3A northern Africa lineages was the historic Arab slavetrade that had less impact on the non-Arab and more isolated Berber groups, including those from Mauritania
How long have Arabs been putting native Afrikans in involuntary servitude or Slavery?
This type of idea is what Eurocentrism breeds, which is just plain IGNORANT.
Are these Eurocentrics just RACIST or just IGNORANT which is it? The RACIST agenda being expressed by Eurocentric Geneticist is going to DESTROY the ideology that Genetics is a acceptable tool for historians.
CAN SOME ONE TELL THESE GENETICIST TO READ HERODOTUS AND STOP BEING IGNORANT.
quote: Are you saying that Eurcentrism doesn't use linguistics, phsyical anthropology and other methodology to pursue it's agenda?
Very few, because Eurocentrism is highly opinionated, Eurocentrics play the I am a expert so listen to me and don't ask for proof or evidence game. Professor knows best so don't question me if I say it is so then it is so. Eurocentrics show pictures and then proceed to do guesswork without any background towards where their guesses come from or proof that their guess is correct.
quote: The historic Arab slave trade may be the main cause of this difference.
Comments like these are typical for Eurocentrics, make a claim and don't back it up with any evidence. Afrocentrics make mince meat out of these ignorant claims.
rasol wrote:
quote: Don't confuse the discipline of science with the biased agenda of Eurocentrists.
I don't confuse the scientific method, I am suprised by the way some Geneticist claim to be intelligent on one hand towards DNA data and then are totally ignorant towards the history of the people they claim they are testing.
Lately a lot of Geneticist have taken the idea that Afrikan genes equal Bondage or Slave genes as Nubian slaves for East Afrikans, West Afrikan captives/slaves for Brazilians or South Americans, and now Berber forced servitude/slaves for North West Afrika. No one can claim to be INTELLIGENT and think like that, so one wonders where else does the ignorance of the Geneticist exist seeing they are working with such complicated materials such as DNA.
rasol wrote:
quote: Racism can be pursued thru genetics, linguistics, physical anthropology or any other science.
Agreed though LINGUISTICS might prove hard to do, but when one finds the work of RACIST then the individual will ignore it or develop a biased attitude against it.
rasol wrote:
quote: If you attack the idea of science as and acceptable tool because of racism - you leave science to the racists.
We need to better understand genetics - not ignore it and hope that it will go away.
I am not attacking the Scientific Method just the RACIST quackpots who corrupt it.
Only Geneticist can make sure that genetics grows in importance by being accurate and FAIR or non-prejudicial, or else they will LIE themselves out of importance because Humanity does not respect LIARS.
posted
The problem with the study neglects the other historic slave trade that occured in Northwest Africa . The fact that it was not untill the early 1900's that slavery millions of white Christians was stopped by authorities.Tunisa,Algeria,Morocco and etc. Of course Greco-Roman writers describe dark skinned populations that lived well above the Sahara around the Oasis that survive today as the Haratin in Southern Morocco. Other populations in Fezzan and Siwa that are ''black'' and African in apperance are largely ignored by reserchers. Not to mention that sub-saharan type populations lived in the Sahara desert well before desertifcation.
To ascribe all so-called L3a admixture is a product of slavery is a product of the ''Hamitic Hypothesis'' that still plagues many genetic and anthropological text.
Another problem is the assumption that modern Arabic speaking populations are non-Berber in origin. Simply not true because there was not very large amounts of migration from the Arabian peninsula. Many of the Arabic speaking populations in Morocco,Algeria are just as Berber as the Berber speaking populations. This is not to say there was no migration of Arab bedouin tribes but it was minimal compared to earlier migrants that might have came from the Northern Mediterranean. The only exception I know of almost entirely Arabic ethnic countries in Magreb is Libya and Tunisa.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by *Charlie Bass*: Mitochondrial DNA Variation in Mauritania and Mali and their Genetic Relationship to Other Western Africa Populations A. M. González, V. M. Cabrera, J. M. Larruga, A. Tounkara, G. Noumsi, B. N. Thomas and J. M. Moulds
quote:I don't confuse the scientific method, I am suprised by the way some Geneticist claim to be intelligent on one hand towards DNA data and then are totally ignorant towards the history of the people they claim they are testing.
quote:Originally posted by ausar: The problem with the study neglects the other historic slave trade that occured in Northwest Africa . The fact that it was not untill the early 1900's that millions of white slaves were imported into Magrebian countries like Tunisa,Algeria,Morocco and etc. Of course Greco-Roman writers describe dark skinned populations that lived well above the Sahara around the Oasis that survive today as the Haratin in Southern Morocco. Other populations in Fezzan and Siwa that are ''black'' and African in apperance are largely ignored by reserchers.
^ On point.
Moreover we are sometimes asked as to how it is possible to have 'mismatches' in paternal and maternal ancestry as is the case with the Berber, as if this is unprecedented or inexplicable.
It is neither of those things.....
The Ancestry of Brazilian mtDNA Lineages
We have analyzed 247 Brazilian mtDNAs for hypervariable segment (HVS)–I and selected restriction fragment-length–polymorphism sites, to assess their ancestry in different continents.
The white Brazilian population, paradoxically, seems to be an excellent resource with which to study the phylogeny of western- and central-African mtDNA.
In conclusion, our mtDNA study of a random sample of white Brazilians has revealed an astonishingly high matrilineal contribution of Amerindians and Africans.
Present-day Brazilians thus still carry the genetic imprint of the early-colonization phase: the pioneer-colonial population typically had Amerindian ancestry—and, after few generations, increasingly African ancestry—in the maternal line but Portuguese ancestry in the paternal line (as is reflected by Y-chromosome markers [D. R. Carvalho-Silva, F. R. Santos, and S. D. J. Pena, unpublished results]).
Berber migration to NorthWest Africa, like Latin migration to South America present examples of male-biased migrant patterns.
AFrican female lineages in Latin Americans likely result from similiar processes as European lineages in NorthWEst African Berber.
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I am not clear on: "The fact that it was not untill the early 1900's that millions of white slaves were imported into Magrebian countries like Tunisa,Algeria,Morocco and etc." Or do you mean that the importation of white slaves into North Africa did not stop till the 1900s?
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posted
According to Spanish sources, the Senegambian area provided an element in the composition of Southern Spain and due to back migration (my guess) over the centuries, the West African contigent due to numbers, absorbed the groups involved in their return and we see that in the genotyping.
The Turks, in their quest to overtake Arab influence, provided in the form of yeniseri (janissaries-military units.groups) usually Eastern Europeans who saw this as a chance for advancement were stationed in various cities as a force to be reckoned with. These Easter Europeans provided the overseas forces in the Magreb to unify the 'colonies' under Turkish rule. Many yeniseri were't necessarily imported but volunteered. They were Muslim Greeks, Bulgarian, Serb, etc who fund their position greatly enhanced since they found the power of Islam to raise their social position.
Didn't a Yugoslavian dynasty find itself in Egypt as an occupying force?
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by yazid904: According to Spanish sources, the Senegambian area provided an element in the composition of Southern Spain and due to back migration (my guess) over the centuries, the West African contigent due to numbers, absorbed the groups involved in their return and we see that in the genotyping.
What genetic indicators point to this?
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I am not clear on: "The fact that it was not untill the early 1900's that millions of white slaves were imported into Magrebian countries like Tunisa,Algeria,Morocco and etc." Or do you mean that the importation of white slaves into North Africa did not stop till the 1900s?
What I meant to say is that untill the early 1900's Europeans were kidnapped and taken into Magreb. You can actually read letters from U.S. Congressmen adressing this problem in Magreb.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland,” he said.
Pirates (called corsairs) from cities along the Barbary Coast in north Africa – cities such as Tunis and Algiers – would raid ships in the Mediterranean and Atlantic, as well as seaside villages to capture men, women and children. The impact of these attacks were devastating – France, England, and Spain each lost thousands of ships, and long stretches of the Spanish and Italian coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants. At its peak, the destruction and depopulation of some areas probably exceeded what European slavers would later inflict on the African interior.Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I came across this source though it is not direct whereas the following is noted:
In a West African population (Senegambia region), M1 was noted as 5.9% frequency, and U5 as 2.7% and U6 as 2.2%. Additionally 3 different U6 haplotypes in a Fula, Mandenka and Manjaco indicativ of these specific groups (individuals) migration and spawning new roots!
Another source, though relating to Portugal and Cabo Verde relating to HLA-B* and HLA-DRB1 alleles referencing Spain where HLA-B 44 West African/Algerian as 20.5% frequency!
quote:Originally posted by yazid904: I came across this source though it is not direct whereas the following is noted:
In a West African population (Senegambia region), M1 was noted as 5.9% frequency, and U5 as 2.7% and U6 as 2.2%. Additionally 3 different U6 haplotypes in a Fula, Mandenka and Manjaco indicativ of these specific groups (individuals) migration and spawning new roots!
Which of the above lineages do you consider to be of 'back-migration' and not African-specific?
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posted
Back migration as presently defined, implies a specifc group left Africa at x time and some time afterwards returned to that place where they assumed thir roots were.
I personally find that at odds with my historical reference regarding Spain or Portugal where, in the case of Arabs/Berbers/Moros, many were defeated or dynasties fell (Abbasid/Umayyad/etc., so by default they were forced to leave due to societal upheaval. Basically I ma working from 711AD when Tariq crossed Gibraltar (Rock of Tariq) to 1492.
The specifics I know about are historical so I now need to find the genotype record to match. Not difficult but I allude to Morocco which is part of the Berber belt so continuity is present. I am not ruling out that Algiers and Tunisia may have been alternate location where fallen dynastic influences retrested to.
Mystery, Back migration, I believe is incidental while saying there was enough Visigoth (Germanic), Celt (Galicia (NW Spain and North Portugal) French (Province of Catalunya) that was introduced in North Africa through the mozarabes (essentially native Spaniards who due to environment behaved like Arabs in all sense of the word except for ethnicity).
Tarik the berber was invited to Spain by the Visigoth (German) king who needed his help to quell disturbances leading me to believe North Africa had an informal relationship that turned into conquest when the timing was right. I say that the Senegambian (in this case) M1 lineage from similar group began the journey east (check out if not already Spencer Wells) and ended up in what is now India or sililar place where the seed group from the M1 group stayed and formed a greater nation, as it were.
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Mystery, Back migration, I believe is incidental while saying there was enough Visigoth (Germanic), Celt (Galicia (NW Spain and North Portugal) French (Province of Catalunya) that was introduced in North Africa through the mozarabes (essentially native Spaniards who due to environment behaved like Arabs in all sense of the word except for ethnicity).
Tarik the berber was invited to Spain by the Visigoth (German) king who needed his help to quell disturbances leading me to believe North Africa had an informal relationship that turned into conquest when the timing was right. I say that the Senegambian (in this case) M1 lineage from similar group began the journey east (check out if not already Spencer Wells) and ended up in what is now India or sililar place where the seed group from the M1 group stayed and formed a greater nation, as it were.
Doesn't answer my question, unless you are saying that M1 is non-African specific, but indicative of back-migration, and that it exists in the Indian sub-continent. My original question, which remains unanswered, was:
Which of the above lineages do you consider to be of 'back-migration' and not African-specific?
...in response to your claim of:
quote:Originally posted by yazid904: I came across this source though it is not direct whereas the following is noted:
In a West African population (Senegambia region), M1 was noted as 5.9% frequency, and U5 as 2.7% and U6 as 2.2%.
Additionally 3 different U6 haplotypes in a Fula, Mandenka and Manjaco indicativ of these specific groups (individuals) migration and spawning new roots!
posted
M1 and U5 have their origin in Africa and West Africa at that! Back migration may/has shown the specific genotype to be more recent or rooted in antiquity (older? origin).
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by yazid904: Back migration as presently defined, implies a specifc group left Africa at x time and some time afterwards returned to that place where they assumed thir roots were.
Can this be applied to any time frame?
Suppose a group stepped out of Africa and into the levantine 50,000 years ago and then stepped back into Africa only 1 thousand years later where they have lived in Africa for the last 49,000 years.
Bear in mind that Europe was 1st settled 40 kya.
Therefore said group has lived in Africa since before Europeans existed, and for 49,000 of the last 50 thousand years.
Does this still qualify as back migration?
The question is interesting because it has its corollary in the question of what constitutes non African: before 50kya~ all people were African.
When then, in your view do Africans become non African?
If a people migrate out of Africa, back into Africa, and then out of African again.....are they now Africans living outside of Africa (?), or are they native Non-Africans?
I'm asking you - does this work both ways or only 1 way?
Lastly, African Americans who settled Liberia withing the last couple centuries...does that consitutute 'back migration' as well?
Africans must take great care with how we define these things, lest we allow them to be defined for us - by Eurocentrists.
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good question. 1. Since selective discourse is used to deceive and forge absurdity, that many times determines the result/perception of who is an African and who is not.
2. My African friends (Nigerian/Soamli/Ethiopian/assume I am Somali/Ethiopian when I am not though I have more Nigerian ancestry through Yoruba (my own roots). My Afro American friends when they go to Africa refuese to speak the language while attempting to forge change to a foreign culture they have no sense of, while behaving like Euro-Americans in mannerism and focus. WHo is the real African?
3. Back migration according to the Liberian model does not fit the mold of what my understanding is. When black Americans returned to Africa, they had lost all meaning and knowledge of thei tribal roots so they were basically 'European' in manners and the focus to move away the local tribal groups as opposing to forging ties. The Americans came to conquer. BAck migration would imply a merging of the two groups (as opposed to displacement, though we no direct knowledge of such).
Q. does this work both ways or only 1 way? A. If you are writing the book, then it is only 1 way. But it can work any way depending on the circumstance(s). I have some friends from Trinidad who are blonds (yes they do have West African ancestry) but privately they do acknowledge that are African. Publicly, they are European because it has advantages and default privileges. Their surname also reflects how far they can go with it. I know some South African who will say they are African because there is advantage and privilege and status. If they go back to the roots of their ancestors, they will be just another poor bloke trying to find themselves in a broken country.
Q.Can this (back migration) be applied to any time frame? Yes. The extent, to me is unknown. I have to rely on outlier information or extremes to attempt to make my point.
As example, Who are the true Jews? The one who returned to kick out the Palestinians or the Lemba or Falasha? It comes down to power? Taking the Askenazi (German Jews) as reference for any group that returns (back migrated) to their supposed place of origin like that will be swept into the sea (disappear) but we have no knopwledge of that happening. Someone?
If that does not happen, if the displaced group returns and survives, they would prabably be shunned and from a separate society having no contact (limited contact) with other groups. In short, back migration doesn't give the degree of integration taking place but genotyping shows some thing is happening but not extent. Maternal lineage (excessive?) may show that the men were killed and therfore women more accessible. A degree of forced female cohabitation?? In some Turkish campaigns the men where killed and the women served the victor!
Sorry I gave no definitive answer but based on the scientific frequency of certain genotype, the definition is far from defining.
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by yazid904: M1 and U5 have their origin in Africa and West Africa at that! Back migration may/has shown the specific genotype to be more recent or rooted in antiquity (older? origin).
Ultimately all lineages derive from an African ancestor. You made no mention of U6 here, and so, I am not sure what viewpoint you hold on the origins of this lineage. From the lineages mentioned in what I cited you on, the U5 is the only one that can be determined as a 'non-African' specific lineage, which could well indicate "back-migration" ultimately from Eurasia. The West African groups (Senegambians in this case) who carry this, may not necessarily have inherited this directly from Eurasians; it could well have come from interactions with North Africans, who also carry small frequencies of this lineage.
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quote:Originally posted by yazid904: 3. Back migration according to the Liberian model does not fit the mold of what my understanding is. When black Americans returned to Africa, they had lost all meaning and knowledge of their tribal roots so they were basically 'European' in manners and the focus to move away the local tribal groups as opposing to forging ties. The Americans came to conquer.
So back migration is a function of one's own knowledge of one's roots?
If so is that meant to imply that no people without a knowledge of their prior homeland can be regarded as 'migrants' into a new homeland?
quote: BAck migration would imply a merging of the two groups
How so? Migration means movement from one place to another. Back means movement back to the former place. Wherein is anything mentioned about merging two groups?
quote:A. If you are writing the book, then it is only 1 way.
How so? Do you mean it is impossible for someone from say....Europe to migrate out of Europe, and then back migrate into Europe.
So....only Africa can receive back migration?
Do you know of an actual book, a definition, or any source of information that can clarify your concept of back migration.
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Recent back-migration can be estimated by an examination of the presence, in the Near East, of clusters that are most likely to have evolved within Europe. Haplogroup U5 is very ancient (»50,000 years old) in both Europe and the Near East, but it occurs more sporadically in the Near East and is absent from Arabia.
Therefore, whereas the U5 root sequence type (16270) could conceivably have originated in the Near East and have spread to Europe »50,000 1264 Am. J. Hum. Genet. 67:1251–1276, 2000 YBP, with recurrent back-migration ever since, a European origin for the U5 cluster seems just as probable. In either case, the U5 cluster itself would have evolved essentially in Europe. http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v67n5/001799/001799.web.pdf
note: by this logic U6 would have 'evolved' essentially in Africa, this is particularly so since, unlike u5, it does not have any ancient presence anywhere else other than it's putative 'evolved' homeland.
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My point (improply explained) was that black American return to the homeland is not a good example of back migration. They did return but it was short lived (150 years). Is 150 year difference sufficient to show through genotyping, a back migration shift/change? I doubt this but?!! My view is a social one because I know the history? WHich is right? My view that Nubians and Upper Egyptians (I live there? not me per se but the inhabitants) or the pseudo science now expounded as truth that they are 'European' (meaning less 'African'!!??).
It is obvious that migration means moving from place B to place A and back migration implying moving back to place B? But why the movement back? My social reference is inhospitability of the new climate/environment over time and social conflict with 'native elements'. Present back migration studies make it seem like they just got up and moved back on a whim, which I doubt so I have to go back to my own theory that the returning group had to stay a considerable time (unknown to me) for a modern version of scientific genotyping to play out.
It is obvious to me that returning groups who were 'weak', unable to 'merge' (war, famine,etc) despite bak migration were wiped out but there is no record so that never happened and we know not why. The groups who were able to interact made the difference and perhaps allowed for genetic interplay to be recorded as we are able to tell! or there could have been displacement of the old native group (group B) being diplaced by the returning group (back migratory person) and who is to know? No one will know or be able to tell the difference.
Q. Is it possible for someone to leave Europe and return? A. Of course, it is possible but Europe has enough diversity, as in Finns, Basques, Bulgarians (fringe Europe but still part of Europe proper). A pdf I previously liked showed the former Byzantiium that the Turks captured already had a sizeable population reminiscent of Serbs and modern day Croatians telling us they converted and just adopted the customs of their conquerors!
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My point (improply explained) was that black American return to the homeland is not a good example of back migration.
They did return but it was short lived (150 years). Is 150 year difference sufficient to show through genotyping, a back migration shift/change?
Now, I asked you earlier:
quote:Can this (back migration) be applied to any time frame?
You answered:
quote: Yes. The extent, to me is unknown
But now you qualify it based on time - yet do not explain what is the proper time frame. Curious.
quote:My view is a social one because I know the history?
And....how would you apply social history to migrations which occurred deep in pre-history?
quote:It is obvious that migration means moving from place B to place A and back migration implying moving back to place B?
Yes, so why the convoluted and arbitrary attempts to redefine according to parameters having nothing to do with the definition.
What can come of this process other than incoherence?
quote:But why the movement back?
Why the initial migration? If no migration - why not? What do these questions have to do with the definition of back migrations.
Nothing I should say.
quote:Q. Is it possible for someone to leave Europe and return? A. Of course,
Of course...of course, but that isn't the question I asked you.
Here the point Yazid:
In population genetics, as with other fields of inquiry in biological history - there is and attempt to frame arguments in a way so as to conflate the importance of Europe, at the expense of the rest of the world.
Europe's biological/migration history is essentially as follows:
* And original 40kya~ in migrating population that displaced neanderthal and in-bred in isolated ice age refugees. [haplogroups R1b and I]
** And incoming neolithic infusion from East Africa and South West Asia [E3b and J].
*** Incoming paternal migrants from Moorish NorthWest Africa - out migrants of maternal lineages to NorthWest Africa - intermingling and cross migrations between both of the above.
**** Infusions of East Asian lineages from the Mongols to the Russians and Turks and thence into Western Europe, and vice versa. Outflow of European populations into SouthWest Asia and Northern India, and so on.
And yet we seldom ever hear of Europeans discussed in terms of migrant or back migrant populations - contributing 'ad-mixtures' to the native European gene pool.
In the link I provided on back migration of Europeans to the levantine there is and attempt to 'claim' U5 lineages for Europe.
This is in spite of the fact that the lineage is 50 thousand years old, and so...PREDATES the peopling of Europe! - a fact the population geneticists study-authors are very well aware of.
quote:Originally posted by Xross Breed: Ms Myra, do you have electronic access to these two studies: Y-Chromosome Lineages from Portugal, Madeira and Acores and Human mitochondrial DNA diversity in an archaeological site in al-Andalus: Genetic impact of migrations from North Africa in medieval Spain Thanks in advance, Charles Rigaud
Y-chromosome Lineages from Portugal, Madeira and Acores Record Elements of Sephardim and Berber Ancestry Annals of Human Genetics (2005) Rita Goncalves, Ana Freitas Marta Branco, Alexandra Rosa, Ana T. Fernandes, Lev A. Zhivotovsky, Peter A. Underhill, Toomas Kivisild and Antonio Brehm
Human Mitochondrial DNA Diversity in an Archaeological Site in al-Andalus: Genetic Impact of Migrations from North Africa in Medieval Spain American Journal of Physical Anthropology (2006) Marıa Jose Casas, Erika Hagelberg, Rosa Fregel, Jose M. Larruga, and Ana M. Gonzalez
The presence in Portugal of both the A and E1 haplogroups may be independent from the slave trade (otherwise E3a would be well represented since it comprises the majority of West Africa lineages).
These findings either suggest a pre-Neolithic migration from North Africa or a more recent origin from a founder population of small size that did not carry haplogroup E3a, which is a major component in North African populations today.
TMRCA for Portuguese E1 lineages estimated as 22.9 ± 7.2 ky (Table 2) favours the first scenario, a possible parallel to mtDNA U6 cited in Gonzalez et al. (2003).
Note E1-M33 is most common among the Taureg in Mali and also among the Fulani.
Also note E1 as a native African paternal companion to U6.
Keep all of the above in mind as the study is prepared to accept the obvious - Neolithic migrations of Africans into Europe associated with these lineages, yet tries to play down the antiquity of African Lx and M1 lineages in Europe in order to *minimize the damage* to Euroctrism(?)
Even so the evidence of Neolithic African ancestry in Southern Europe speaks for itself.....
Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland,” he said.
Pirates (called corsairs) from cities along the Barbary Coast in north Africa – cities such as Tunis and Algiers – would raid ships in the Mediterranean and Atlantic, as well as seaside villages to capture men, women and children. The impact of these attacks were devastating – France, England, and Spain each lost thousands of ships, and long stretches of the Spanish and Italian coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants. At its peak, the destruction and depopulation of some areas probably exceeded what European slavers would later inflict on the African interior.
May i ask whether there were any cases in human histrory where blacks enslaved whites?
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Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland,” he said.
Pirates (called corsairs) from cities along the Barbary Coast in north Africa – cities such as Tunis and Algiers – would raid ships in the Mediterranean and Atlantic, as well as seaside villages to capture men, women and children. The impact of these attacks were devastating – France, England, and Spain each lost thousands of ships, and long stretches of the Spanish and Italian coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants. At its peak, the destruction and depopulation of some areas probably exceeded what European slavers would later inflict on the African interior. [/qb]
May i ask whether there were any cases in human histrory where blacks enslaved whites?
...a picture may be worth a thousand words.
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M1 is a maternal Lineage and derivitive of L3x most common in Ethiopia and the Upper Nile Valley. It can also be referred to as L3M1.
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quote:Originally posted by Xross Breed: Ms Myra, do you have electronic access to these two studies: Y-Chromosome Lineages from Portugal, Madeira and Acores and Human mitochondrial DNA diversity in an archaeological site in al-Andalus: Genetic impact of migrations from North Africa in medieval Spain Thanks in advance, Charles Rigaud
Y-chromosome Lineages from Portugal, Madeira and Acores Record Elements of Sephardim and Berber Ancestry Annals of Human Genetics (2005) Rita Goncalves, Ana Freitas Marta Branco, Alexandra Rosa, Ana T. Fernandes, Lev A. Zhivotovsky, Peter A. Underhill, Toomas Kivisild and Antonio Brehm
Human Mitochondrial DNA Diversity in an Archaeological Site in al-Andalus: Genetic Impact of Migrations from North Africa in Medieval Spain American Journal of Physical Anthropology (2006) Marıa Jose Casas, Erika Hagelberg, Rosa Fregel, Jose M. Larruga, and Ana M. Gonzalez
The presence in Portugal of both the A and E1 haplogroups may be independent from the slave trade (otherwise E3a would be well represented since it comprises the majority of West Africa lineages).
These findings either suggest a pre-Neolithic migration from North Africa or a more recent origin from a founder population of small size that did not carry haplogroup E3a, which is a major component in North African populations today.
TMRCA for Portuguese E1 lineages estimated as 22.9 ± 7.2 ky (Table 2) favours the first scenario, a possible parallel to mtDNA U6 cited in Gonzalez et al. (2003).
Note E1-M33 is most common among the Taureg in Mali and also among the Fulani.
Also note E1 as a native African paternal companion to U6.
Keep all of the above in mind as the study is prepared to accept the obvious - Neolithic migrations of Africans into Europe associated with these lineages, yet tries to play down the antiquity of African Lx and M1 lineages in Europe in order to *minimize the damage* to Euroctrism(?)
Which is something that A. M. Gonzalez et al., 2006, have addressed briefly in their study. Perhaps, the details of L and M1 haplotypes mentioned in the Rita Goncalves et al 2005 study, which they claimed to have analyzed in an earlier study, should be examined closely to gauge what specifically led them to seemingly "downplay" the antiquity of the said haplotypes in European groups; for instance, whether they had studied mrca dates for the said haplotypes in Europe, as was supposedly done for the Y chromosome counterparts of A and E1. But as it is, in this particular study of theirs, which is really focused on Y-chromosomes, this "downplay" appears to stem from the reasoning that, the distribution of paternal lineages of A and E1 is supported by not only the so-called "absence" of E3a lineages, but also their TMRCA dates, which they are prepared to associate with U6. It is rather odd that U6 should be mentioned here, while the L and M1 lineages are proposed to be of relatively more recent extraction, based on the notion that E3a lineages are absent, and to put it in their own words:
Haplogroup E3a is notably absent from our sample except for a single E3a individual in the Acores, although this haplogroup constitutes the majority of Y-chromosomes in Guinea (>70%, Rosa et al. unpublished data) and Cabo Verde (16%, Goncalves et al. 2003), the putative regions of origin for the first slaves brought to Portugal. These results sharply contrast with those obtained with mtDNA markers. mtDNA haplogroups L0-L3 and M1 that are characteristic to sub-Saharan populations are present at ~ 12% and ~ 14.8% in the south of Portugal and Madeira, respectively (Brehm et al. 2003; Gonzalez et al. 2003). This contrasting pattern of paternally and maternally inherited markers closely follows the situation in the Canary Islands where E3a is residual (.9%, Flores et al. 2003). These Y-chromosomes haplogroups have escaped detection in other populations of Iberia (Semino et al. 2000, 2004; Bosch et al. 2001), in spite of the fact that the peninsula was a recipient for sub-Saharan slaves from the 15th century onwards. These results are consistent with sex specific gene flow, probably resulting from the custom that male slaves did not mate with Iberian women while the opposite situation was common, as supported by mtDNA analysis (Brehm et al. 2003; Gonzalez et al. 2003).
Thus on the one hand, the supposed lack of detection or absence of E3a, is used as evidence that A and E1 lineages are from much more antiquated migrations, while on the other hand, its “absence” is used as vindication of male slave owners using female slaves for their sexual desires, while the male slaves were not afforded the opportunity to mate with in situ European females - hence explaining the disparity between the distribution of slave paternal lineages and slave maternal lineages. This uneven-handed approach to deductions made from the supposed “absence” of E3a, is justified by the aforementioned correlation of the said regions:
Haplogroup E3a is notably absent from our sample except for a single E3a individual in the Acores, although this haplography constitutes the majority of Y-chromosomes in Guinea (>70%, Rosa et al. unpublished data) and Cabo Verde (16%, Goncalves et al. 2003), the putative regions of origin for the first slaves brought to Portugal. These results sharply contrast with those obtained with mtDNA markers. mtDNA haplogroups L0-L3 and M1 that are characteristic to sub-Saharan populations are present at ~ 12% and ~ 14.8% in the south of Portugal and Madeira, respectively (Brehm et al. 2003; Gonzalez et al. 2003). This contrasting pattern of paternally and maternally inherited markers closely follows the situation in the Canary Islands where E3a is residual (.9%, Flores et al. 2003).
These Y-chromosomes haplogroups have escaped detection in other populations of Iberia
Moreover, judging from the way it was mentioned that M1 and L0-L3 are characteristic of “sub-Saharan” populations, I can only imagine that U6 is not viewed here as being such, and hence, facilitating the authors usage of the lineage, to associate it with earlier/pre-historic migrations, for which from their viewpoint, paternal lineages [A and E1] have been meaningfully detected, and hence, cannot be likened to a scenario of male slave mediated gene flow into the said European regions, involving in situ females.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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Which is something that A. M. Gonzalez et al., 2006, have addressed briefly in their study.
Speaking of which...
However, when we revised published and our unpublished HVRI data from Europe (11,511) and Africa (4,566), we collected 31 L1b European haplotypes, four of which are 16175 carriers, giving a frequency of 0.129 for this type in Europe. On the contrary, from 310 L1b Africans none of them has the 16175 transition. Supposing that Africa has the same frequency as in Europe, the binomial probability of not finding this motif in the African sample would be 2.5 x 10^-19. Therefore, the most probable situation is that the ancestor of this motif (Fig. 2) arrived from Africa to Europe where the 16175 mutation occurred. The divergence time estimation for this clade in Europe is around 20,180 +/- 16,144 years, pointing to a prehistoric arrival, in Europe, of the basic African motif. It could also be that L1b with the 16175 transition was carried to the Iberian Peninsula with the Muslim invaders and that this motif was lost in Africa. However, there are not important NW African demographic movements registered in recent times that could explain this loss.
Furthermore, this clade has a relatively high diversity in Europe (three different haplotypes from four individuals); therefore, if these types had arrived from Africa in recent times, we would have to suppose that this great diversity should already be in Africa. Moreover, the presence of a North African M1 representative, recently detected, in historic Basque remains that predate the Muslim invasion (Alzuald et al., in press) is congruent with this proposed African pre-Muslim arrival to Europe.
Regarding those L3 African lineages only found in current Priego and NW Africa (belonging to L3h and L3e5 haplogroups), their limited distribution favors a more recent arrival to Iberia, in this case from Tunisia, as both lineages have only been found in Berber populations from this country.
The very last point in the above is based on relatively rare haplotype matches found across the available medieval and contemporary population samples, between certain designated positions on the DNA strand; in this case, the segment concerned, is that between 160165 and 16365.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:This uneven-handed approach to deductions made from the supposed “absence” of E3a
Exactly - it is uneven-handed, and based on convoluted assumptions that don't necessarily hold water.
quote:Moreover, judging from the way it was mentioned that M1 and L0-L3 are characteristic of “sub-Saharan” populations, I can only imagine that U6 is not viewed here as being such
Correct, and this also a sly fallacy. Have to remember that North African U6 is older BY FAR than E3a, E3b1 or E3b2. This begs the question of what male counterpart to U6 may have existed in the Paleolithic. West African E1 [Mali] and East African A [sudan ethiopia] are good candidates.
Now, having acknowledged the precense of E1 and A - male, and U6 female in Neolithic Europe, we may return to medievil southern Europe:
We collected 31 L1b European heliotypes, four of which are 16175 carriers, giving a frequency of 0.129 for this type in Europe. On the contrary, from 310 L1b Africans none of them has the 16175 transition.
Supposing that Africa has the same frequency as in Europe, the binomial probability of not finding this motif in the African sample would be 2.5 x 10^-19. Therefore, the most probable situation is that the ancestor of this motif (Fig. 2) arrived from Africa to Europe where the 16175 mutation occurred. The divergence time estimation for this clade in Europe is around 20,180 +/- 16,144 years, pointing to a prehistoric arrival, in Europe, of the basic African motif.
So we can logically associate at least some of Europes L lineages to Neolithic or earlier African migrations as well as M1, U6, E1, A and E3b.
Finally, the 16175 mutation on the African L1b chromosome can be likened to the aplha tandem repeat on the African E3b1 lineages denoting African male ancestry in Europeans.
But notice here - unlike the case with some studies on E3b in Europeans - no attempt to run and hide from the African ancestry inherently implied in L1b maternal lineage.
Take the following sentense: the ancestor of this motif arrived from Africa to Europe where the 16175 mutation occurred.
Now replace the L1b with E3b, replace 16175 with 'alpha'.
This is essentially what is true of E3b1 in Southern Europe as well.
The data in support of a neolithic infusion of African ancestry into southern Europe is quite overwhelming.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
You guys need to read the dates of those lineages, none of them, male and female are or Neolithic derivation, they're far older than that.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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^ No kidding. I wonder if this is why I wrote:
Have to remember that North African U6 is older BY FAR than E3a, E3b1 or E3b2 (?).
That is a distinct issue from when they reached Europe.
To understand this - simply reading is not, and will never be enough.
We *must* be able to reason, to analyse, and in essence, to think, otherwise the studies can teach us nothing. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I'm promised myself I would not have another E3b argument in this forum and I'm sticking to it. I just encourage the people participating in this thread to focus on the two studies that were requested.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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Mitochondrial DNA Affinities at the Atlantic Fringe of Europe Ana M. Gonza´ lez, Antonio Brehm, Jose´ A. Pe´ rez,1 Nicole Maca-Meyer,1 Carlos Flores, and Vicente M. Cabrera
In the same vein, the Saharan Neolithic gene flow can be estimated as 13%, taking the actual frequencies for the sub-Saharan African haplogroups (51%) in southern northwest African samples (Tuareg, Saharans, and Mauritanians) as the frequency of the African Neolithic, and that of the Iberian Peninsula (6.8%) as the result of the putative Neolithic maternal gene flow. This value could rise to 23% when only south Portugal is taken into account.Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Mitochondrial DNA Affinities at the Atlantic Fringe of Europe Ana M. Gonza´ lez, Antonio Brehm, Jose´ A. Pe´ rez,1 Nicole Maca-Meyer,1 Carlos Flores, and Vicente M. Cabrera
In the same vein, the Saharan Neolithic gene flow can be estimated as 13%, taking the actual frequencies for the sub-Saharan African haplogroups (51%) in southern northwest African samples (Tuareg, Saharans, and Mauritanians) as the frequency of the African Neolithic, and that of the Iberian Peninsula (6.8%) as the result of the putative Neolithic maternal gene flow. This value could rise to 23% when only south Portugal is taken into account.
I know I said I wouldn't but, true indeed, there was African Neolithic geneflow into Iberia, but it didn't involve E3b1, just maternal lineages that came from the Sahara.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
^ Don't worry, we ignore promises unlikely to be kept and apologies not meant to be taken seriously in the 1st place.
We're not dumb.
quote:Charles: there was African Neolithic geneflow into Iberia
^ Bottom line isn't it?
So why rationalise, deny, make excuses, or othewise dissemble and so create unnecessary fanfare?
In fact nowhere does Gonza' et al claim that pre-historic African ancestry in the Iberian is *purely maternal*. It's simply that the study itself is of maternal mtdna.
Nor does it make any sense to suggest *maternal only* migrations from Africa to Europe - in pre history.
Especially given the prescense of prehistoric African Y markers [E and A lineages] in the same region of Europe.
The point is that they are equally relevant whether paternal, maternal or autosomal.
While R1b, accounting for more than half of the lineages in any of the Portuguese sub-populations, is a characteristic marker of many different West European populations, haplogroups J and E3b consist of lineages that are typical of the circum-Mediterranean region or even East Africa.
The highly diverse haplogroup E3b in Portuguese likely combines sub-clades of distinct origins. The present composition of the Y chromosomes in Portugal in this haplogroup likely reflects a pre-Arab component shared with North African populations. - Y-chromosome Lineages from Portugal, Madeira and Açores Record Elements of Sephardim and Berber Ancestry
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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I don't think I made myself clear enough so let me repeat it, when I say I'm not going argue about E3b anymore and that I don't wished to be bothered with it, thats exactly what I mean. Now rasol, don't attempt to bait me, you claim on one hand not to be obsesed with Southern European 'racial' purity, but its clear you are obsessed with it. I simply asked Myra for studies, not your soapbox drama about African ancestry in Southern Europeans. Keep it to yourself and don't bother me with it, I think this forum has had enough of hearing about it ad-naseum. You just don't know when to stop, do you?
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:I don't think I made myself clear enough so let me repeat it
Repeat yourself as often as you like. Repetition is not coherence.
quote:when I say I'm not going argue about E3b anymore
You really mean, you will argue about it, while claiming not to - you've now descended to the depths of duplicity.
So, here you are, aruging about it, again, just one post after you admitted to breaking your own meaningless pledge.
If you really don't want to argue...then, stop arguing.
quote:and that I don't wished to be bothered with it
Bothered? Why does it 'bother' you? If it 'bothers' you, why bother? Think about what you are saying, it's really neurotic schizoid stuff.
quote:Now rasol, don't attempt to bait me
Now Charlie, don't attempt to blame us for your obsessive behaviors.
You have broken your own word.
Whose fault is that, if not yours?
quote:you claim on one hand not to be obsesed with Southern European 'racial' purity, but its clear you are obsessed with it.
In fact, I don't make fake apologies, phony promises, or silly claims.
But even if I did....you would still need to ask yourself WHY THIS "BOTHERS" YOU?
quote:Keep it to yourself and don't bother me with it
My poor bothered friend, since you clearly don't understand the roots of your own behavior allow us to explain "you" to you.
The reason no one accepted your fake apology, is because is it clear that you are driven to the same sort of obsessive behaviors, and would be back at it again.
Your apology was really a form of begging.
You don't want to be 'tormented with truth' over a subject you are obsessed with.
But we can't help you with this Charles, because your obsession is your problem.
You simply can't demand that others be silent because of your shizophrenia over certain issues.
TRUTH: You re-opened this thread, knowing that it would lead right back to the topic of African ancestry in Southern Euroepeans, the very subject you swore to stop making a fool of yourself over.
quote:Charlie wrote: Ms Myra, do you have electronic access to these two studies: Y-Chromosome Lineages from Portugal, Madeira and Acores and Human mitochondrial DNA diversity in an archaeological site in al-Andalus: Genetic impact of migrations from North Africa in medieval Spain]
You should have added to your request Charles - that you 'really don't want to be bothered'.
Now, I'm sure this posts enrages you [whatever], but when you calm down, you may be able to grasp the truth of it.
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