posted
Though the Minoans were an Aegean "white" people their art shows that some of them retained features attributable to the harbingers of E3b-M78 to Anatolia, the Balkans, and southern Europe, and/or copper and bronze age migrants from northern Africa.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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An Egyptian view of a Minoan phenotype as seen in these tax paying diplomats at the left, is not actually Minoan art. However the artist painting for Senmut had been exposed to real Minoan art styles as evinced by the fresco from Knossos on the right
which is a segment from the more complete scene below.
The Africans and Europeans of Crete were of one culture and people. The founding culture was North African but the population hailed from other Aegean islands, the Peloponnese mainland, and the Levant as well. Africans weren't the majority. The majority population was the unique comingling that produced the disctinct Minoans as drawn by themselves above right.
Despite scholarly recognition of that fact no one labels Minoans "mixed." As much as Eurocentrists cry that African doesn't mean black why then do they insist that European means white? Quite oxymoronic, no?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The Africans and Europeans of Crete were of one culture and people. The founding culture was North African but the population hailed from other Aegean islands, the Peloponnese mainland, and the Levant as well. Africans weren't the majority. The majority population was the unique comingling that produced the disctinct Minoans as drawn by themselves above right.
You are quite correct Takruri. Also don't forget about Asia Minor. Language was another thing Minoans had in common with other Aegean islands as well as the Greek mainland. Although the language of the Minoans hasn't yet been fully deciphered, many scholars agree that they use similar words and names that had root words like 'nos' and 'sos' and that such words point to a common linguistic origin from Asia Minor.
But yes, the populations of the Aegean and eastern Mediterranean, by and large were 'mixed' because of migrations coming from all sides, from Europe to the north, Africa to the south, and Western Asia to the east.
quote:Despite scholarly recognition of that fact no one labels Minoans "mixed." As much as Eurocentrists cry that African doesn't mean black why then do they insist that European means white? Quite oxymoronic, no?
Very right about that! European scholars recognize that European civilization ultimately stems from the Aegean, however the Eurocentric and white supremacist mindset is uncomfortable with the idea that the very source of European civilization could be 'mixed-race' and destroys their premise of 'white-purity' being the source of all that is good and civilized. Posts: 26251 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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The group on top does, the others do not. The question comes up concerning the top group...who were the artists? Had they ever seen a Minoan? This is the kind of speculation that leads us into trouble. If you look at the overwhelming number of Minoan frescos they do not look like Egyptians or Nubians.
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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The Sir Arthur Evans labelled "Captain of the Blacks" fresco. In this repro they've deliberately excluded the head of the first black runner but you can see it on p.137 if you have The Image of the Black in Western Art Vol. 1
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: The group on top does, the others do not. The question comes up concerning the top group...who were the artists? Had they ever seen a Minoan? This is the kind of speculation that leads us into trouble. If you look at the overwhelming number of Minoan frescos they do not look like Egyptians or Nubians.
quote:As Takruri stated:
The Africans and Europeans of Crete were of one culture and people. The founding culture was North African but the population hailed from other Aegean islands, the Peloponnese mainland, and the Levant as well. Africans weren't the majority. The majority population was the unique comingling that produced the disctinct Minoans as drawn by themselves above right.
Does this make you feel better Hore? Posts: 26251 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Djuhuti, I do agree with you that euro/American scholars are not going to accept an African base for western civilization(or even a mixed base). They are not going to accept it because they do not believe it.
You can attribute that to some sort of racial bias or conspiracy if you wish, I do not personally see it. I think most of them are sincere whether they are right or not.
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Djuhuti, I do agree with you that euro/American scholars are not going to accept an African base for western civilization(or even a mixed base). They are not going to accept it because they do not believe it.
You can attribute that to some sort of racial bias or conspiracy if you wish, I do not personally see it. I think most of them are sincere whether they are right or not.
On the contrary, my dear Professor Hore!
Scholars have already begun to accept the FACTS. Again, unfortunately my material is at home in my pc but in due time I will reveal what has already begun in 'mainstream' scholarship, yes even European scholarship.
Besides, I thought Western scholarship has long accepted the Near-Eastern influence on the development of Western civilizations, it was only Africa they had problems with.
Posts: 26251 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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You're the only speculator and you're surely deep in trouble double talking away what artist right there on the scene put down over 3500 years ago. You go do some homework on who you are and if you've ever seen a Minoan, no art critic questions these works so the impetus of proof of denial of the obvious is on you not on anyone else to foolishly run in the direction you point as if you are somebody whose unlearned-never-studied-the-topic opinion is respected by anyone or even requires a rebuttal.
When you look at these ladies do your inane defusing questions even enter your white racialist Eurocentric mind? No. No! And you have the nerve to pontificate what difference does colour make when it makes all the difference in the world to Y-O-U
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: The group on top does, the others do not. The question comes up concerning the top group...who were the artists? Had they ever seen a Minoan? This is the kind of speculation that leads us into trouble. If you look at the overwhelming number of Minoan frescos they do not look like Egyptians or Nubians.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Africa is what I was referring to. The overwhelming number of classical scholars see greek thought and culture as home grown. You might find a few out there who take some issue with that, but not many. I tend to be pretty conservative in what I accept and don't accept. I also see the dominance of Europe as primarily military technology so I'm not sure how much the rest of it matters. Usually the guy with the biggest and best stick ends up winning.
Takuri, I'm not speculating about anything, just not willing to accept speculation. The picture was posted with absolutely no information to explain who did it or what they had in mind. If you pull up Minoan art on your PC, which I just did, it does not look like that at all. If we do not watch ourselves we can end up being careless and jumping to conclusions.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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Stop calling this troll professor he has no academic standing and his posts seriously detract any semblances of scholarly presentation this forum poses.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Africa is what I was referring to. The overwhelming number of classical scholars see greek thought and culture as home grown. You might find a few out there who take some issue with that, but not many. I tend to be pretty conservative in what I accept and don't accept.
Hore, no one is stating that Greek philosophy as seen in the works of Plato or Aristotle, somehow 'stolen' from Africa as some afrocentrics claim. Rather this thread is about Minoan origins.
quote:I also see the dominance of Europe as primarily military technology so I'm not sure how much the rest of it matters. Usually the guy with the biggest and best stick ends up winning.
Your point being? Again, you begin to rant about Western superior military technology. I hope you remember that much of that technology was 'borrowed' from other groups and was refined or advanced. But what does any of that have to do with the topic at hand??
quote:Takuri, I'm not speculating about anything, just not willing to accept speculation. The picture was posted with absolutely no information to explain who did it or what they had in mind. If you pull up Minoan art on your PC, which I just did, it does not look like that at all. If we do not watch ourselves we can end up being careless and jumping to conclusions.
Well I suggest you do research on Minoan art yourself to find out more.
Posts: 26251 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Go sod off I don't have to prove squat to you or show you how to do proper thorough Google searches. Obviously I find all the pics I post to this forum on the 'net. Speculation is your first name, Speculating is your middle name, and Speculator is your last name.
Saltine please, go troll a Eurocentric BBS with your silly bullish.
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Takuri, I'm not speculating about anything, just not willing to accept speculation. The picture was posted with absolutely no information to explain who did it or what they had in mind. If you pull up Minoan art on your PC, which I just did, it does not look like that at all. If we do not watch ourselves we can end up being careless and jumping to conclusions.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Takruri is incorrect about my academic standing. He is upset becuase I asked him to back up his statement with an explanation. If he is going to post the art then he needs to tell us more about what it meant. 1. Is it typical Minoan art? Doesn't seem to match the rest. 2. Were the artist drawing what they saw as the average Minoan or a particular Minoan? 3. Had the artist ever actually seen a Minoan ?
I have no problem with Egyptian influence on Crete or even Egyptians or Nubians living in Crete but to say that Crete /Minoan civ was african based is not responsible.
I've gotta run...you guys have a great weekend. Good visiting with you again.
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:I have no problem with Egyptian influence on Crete or even Egyptians or Nubians living in Crete but to say that Crete /Minoan civ was african based is not responsible.
How so, if the Minoan peoples themselves have roots in Africa as stated by mainstream scholars??
Posts: 26251 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Yeah you better run 'cause you got no data to back up a thing you posit. Instead of asking me to do your homework for you you need to make a counter presentation with citations instead of asking a bunch of questions any doubting speculator could ask about any piece of art of a genre he's never studied, seen before, or know the slightest thing about.
posted
Although I don't usually agree with info from this source due to its inaccurate and often ridiculous 'Winteresque' approach of scholarship in trying to attribute every disparate culture to Africa, I find the particular info here as cited from certain Western/European scholars highly interesting.
Arthur Evans was convinced of North African migrations to Neolithic Crete. He pointed out that:
"The multiplicity of these connections with the old indigenous race of the opposite African coast, and which we undoubtedly have to deal with in the pre dynastic population of the Nile Valley, can in fact be hardly explained on any other hypothesis than that of an actual settlement in Southern Crete."
Historian H.R. Hall, also Oxford trained, shared Evans' position on the early population of Minoan Crete:
"While the majority of the original Neolithic inhabitants of Crete probably came from Anatolia, another element may well have come in oared boats from the opposite African coast, bringing with them to the southern plan of Messara the seeds of civilization that, transplanted to the different conditions of Crete, developed into the great Minoan culture, a younger more brilliant, and less long-lived sister of that of Egypt."
Whether the Minoan culture was more brilliant than that of Egypt is highly questionable at best, but on the other points Hall seems to just about to hit the mark. Evans, again, indeed considered Egypt and Libya as the springboards of Minoan civilization; so much so that he structured his own Minoan chronology on that of dynastic Egypt. He was particularly struck by the similarities in the contents of the of the tombs of the ancient Minoans and Egyptians:
"So numerous, in fact, are the points, of comparison presented by the contents of these early interments with those of pre dynastic Egypt that, far-fetched as the conclusion might appear at first sight, I was already some years since constrained to put forth the suggestion that about the time of the conquest of the lower Nile Valley by the first historic dynasty some part of the older population had actually settled in this southern foreland of Crete."
Gordon Childe also commented on the relations between Crete and pre dynastic Egypt:
"At least on the Mesara, the great plain of southern Crete facing Africa, Minoan Crete's indebtedness to the Nile is disclosed in the most intimate aspects of its culture. Not only do the forms of early Minoan stone vases, the precision of the lapidaries' technique and the aesthetic selection of variegated stones as his materials carry on the the pre dynastic tradition, Nilotic religious customs such as the use of the sistrum, the wearing of amulets in the forms of legs, mummies and monkeys, and statuettes plainly derived from Gerzean `block figures,' and personal habits revealed by depilatory tweezers of the Egyptian shape and stone unguent palettes from the early tombs and, later, details of costumes such as the penis-sheath and loin-cloth betoken something deeper than the external relations of commerce."Posts: 26251 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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There was no need to distort my take on the Minoans which anybody without an agenda can see is neither that they're all "black" African or all "white" European. I clearly spelled out that their components are from a number of sources, the majority of which are technically European. I also went into the E3b genetic component of the involved Europeans never once claiming it was their only or even majority NRY and then this factory worker comes along without a citation or any reference making pretend he's some professional authority we're supposed to believe because he looks at one book on the case behind him. Shoot, I got 1500 books on the shelves of my personal library right in front of me and when I base something on any of them I give a full author title publisher page citation like somebody with university credentials is supposed to do. And what does this troll do? He says he'll look into it then comes back and says something from the top of his head, something we all know he's already going to say, and never tells us the title of what book he makes pretend he looked at. Get da fuh outta hee-ah
Djehuti, maybe you're right but I'm tired of this outbreak of herpes disguised as Salsassin or Horemheb or before you know it the EvilEuro herpes will fester again. These symptoms of hot herpes are what caused me to leave this board in the first place and as soon as theNileValley or its replacement is up and running just call me Audi 'cause I'll be outta here.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Let's please not argue again and turn this into another racial bait. Takruri, there's no need for the profanity!!
The fact is clear: That the Minoan people are of diverse origins.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: There was no need to distort my take on the Minoans which anybody without an agenda can see is neither that they're all African or all European. I clearly spelled out their components from a number of sources the majority of which are technically European. I also went into the E3b genetic component of the involved Europeans never once claiming it was their only or even majority NRY and then this factory worker comes along without a citation or any reference making pretend he's some professional authority we're supposed to belief because he looks at one book on the case behind him. **** I got 1500 books on the shelves of my library right in fornt of me and when I base something on any of them I give a full author title publisher page citation like somebody with univeristy credentials is supposed to do.
Djehuti, maybe you're right but I'm tired of this outbreak of herpes disguised as Salsassin or Horemheb and before you know it the EvilEuro herpes will fester again. These symptoms of hot herpes are what caused me to leave this board in the first place and as soon as theNileValley or its replacement is up and running just call me Audi 'cause I'll be outta here.
All I gotta say is that you must have had a bad experience with trolls, huh?!
Posts: 26251 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Well Hore is gone for now, so you needn't worry about any further nuisance.
Getting back to the topic at hand, one question I have is whether there is any certainty that any of the light-skinned 'caucasian' inhabitants of Crete were of European ancestry at all??
The reason being is that even though evidence shows that some of the Minoans came from mainland Greece, particularly the Peloponnese, it is also a fact that mainland Greece especially the Peloponnese has recieved migrations from elsewhere including the Near East during the Neolithic. That said, can any of these 'white' Minoans truly have indigenous European ancestry??
Posts: 26251 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I can't just play off the genetic studies which show Eurasian haplogroups predominate in favor of handfuls of Northeast African, Levantine, and North African migrants.
I don't know how Caucasians got into this but the milky white "women of pallour" in Minoan art don't quite seem very Levantine to me (and yes I know levan comes from a Semitic root meaning milk/white/moon).
But that's my opinion. If you've seen scholars who say otherwise based on good research then that opinion is just as valid as mine. That's what makes academics, data to support opinions, and no matter how contradictory conflicting opinions may be, if they're supported by raw data then each stands validated. There's much more grey than black or white.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Getting back to the topic at hand, one question I have is whether there is any certainty that any of the light-skinned 'caucasian' inhabitants of Crete were of European ancestry at all??
The reason being is that even though evidence shows that some of the Minoans came from mainland Greece, particularly the Peloponnese, it is also a fact that mainland Greece especially the Peloponnese has recieved migrations from elsewhere including the Near East during the Neolithic. That said, can any of these 'white' Minoans truly have indigenous European ancestry??
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I can't just play off the genetic studies which show Eurasian haplogroups predominate in favor of handfuls of Northeast African, Levantine, and North African migrants.
I don't know how Caucasians got into this but the milky white "women of pallour" in Minoan art don't quite seem very Levantine to me (and yes I know levan comes from a Semitic root meaning milk/white/moon).
But that's my opinion. If you've seen scholars who say otherwise based on good research then that opinion is just as valid as mine. That's what makes academics, data to support opinions, and no matter how contradictory conflicting opinions may be, if they're supported by raw data then each stands validated. There's much more grey than black or white.
Have you ever thought that such "women of pallor" could be an artistic convention?? After all, men were usually portrayed darker and of course the Egyptians had the tradition to portray women as yellow.
Also, I have seen plenty of Palestinian, Syrian, and Turkish girls with the same features (except of course not being that pale but still fair-skinned nonetheless) like noses, reddish brown eye color, and of course hair.
Is there any actual genetic evidence that the Minoans consisted of peoples indigenous to Europe proper and not just the Near-East?
Posts: 26251 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I don't know, so... how come you don't wade through the genetic reports and tell us what you come up with? I'll be all ears.
In the meantime I'll be scouring the 'net for pics fitting the topic since we can't scan and post non-cyber materials.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Is there any actual genetic evidence that the Minoans consisted of peoples indigenous to Europe proper and not just the Near-East?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: You are quite correct Takruri. Also don't forget about Asia Minor.
He hasn't; he has already acknowledged Neolithic, and post-Neolithic migrations from Asia Minor. These folks themselves were carriers of E3b derivatives.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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altaruri quote: _______________________________________________________________ The Africans and Europeans of Crete were of one culture and people. The founding culture was North African but the population hailed from other Aegean islands, the Peloponnese mainland, and the Levant as well. Africans weren't the majority. The majority population was the unique comingling that produced the disctinct Minoans as drawn by themselves above right.
In his article "Snake Goddeses, Fake Godesses" (January/February 2001), Kenneth D.S. Lapatin recounted how, in late May 1903, Arthur Evans discovered two large rectangular stone-lined cists at the Minoan site of Knossos on Crete. Most striking of the artifacts he found within were the remains of faience statuettes depicting female snake handlers, which Evans considered to be goddesses and priestesses. These extraordinary finds, however, soon gave rise to a number of fakes. Lapatin's book on the subject, Mysteries of the Snake Goddess: Art, Desire, and the Forging of History (2002), has now appeared in paperback form (Da Capo Press, $16.95). ARCHAEOLOGY's executive editor, Mark Rose, recently spoke to Lapatin, now assistant curator of antiquities at the J. Paul Getty Museum, about the book and the subject of fakes in general.
What has been the reaction to the article and the book? Very positive on the whole, although some museum officials understandably wish I hadn't pursued this topic and that it would just go away. Most curators, however, welcome further knowledge about objects in their care, even if they turn out to date to the late second millennium A.D. rather than mid-second millennium B.C. The public reaction, meanwhile, has been tremendous. One wonderful byproduct is that after reading my book the owner of a Snake Goddess forgery that I only knew from 50-year-old photographs contacted me and brought this piece back out into the open, and another, bronze, Snake Goddess forgery, has also come to light. These statuettes offer material for further study of the style and techniques of the forgers--and support make my point that fakes should not be hidden away, but rather need to be made known. Publicizing some can bring to light others and this can further scholars' work.
How do these early "Minoan" forgeries fit into the history of forgery in the broader sense? How do they rate among the earliest and most notorious? Although they purport to be quite early, from the middle of the second millennium B.C., these statues are quite late. Most of them date from the teens and twenties of the last century. They are really newcomers to the world of forgery. The earliest fake known to me is a second-millennium B.C. cuneiform inscription purporting to be a third-millennium B.C. original that ascribes ancestral privileges to Babylonian temple priests. It is now in the British Museum. The most notorious, on the other hand, is probably the Piltdown Man Hoax of the early twentieth century, which for many years was accepted as the missing link between man and the apes. More recent are the salted prehistoric "finds" of archaeologist Shinichi Fujimura, which purported to push back Japanese prehistory by tens of thousands of years. The "Minoan" forgeries differ from these in that they sold for a lot of money and helped to shape our view of a newly discovered ancient civilization. For in the early twentieth century the Minoans were all the rage. Arthur Evans seemed to have discovered the history underlying Greek myths and to have unearthed the earliest high civilization of Europe (in contrast to those of ancient Egypt and the Near East). The Snake Goddess was one of its most popular images. In all of these cases, however, the forgeries were successful, at least temporarily, because the perpetrators recognized a market for their wares: they produced what people wanted.
What are the other underlying conditions necessary for forgery? In addition to desire on the part of buyers, without which nothing would be possible, new discoveries that increase excitement and create new markets are certainly factors. Moreover, when entire cultures or periods gain popularity, the relative lack of expertise, even among specialists, makes forgeries more difficult to detect. Hence, for example, their prevalence today in African and Precolumbian art. In many cases the forgers also have inside knowledge: access to archaeological sites or unpublished material. Other important factors are fashion, whether it be encouraged by popular trends or blockbuster museum exhibitions; and, always, the lure of the unique "masterpiece." Of course, skill on the part of the forgers is important, too. For that reason, quality is not proof of authenticity.
What is the impact of forgeries? Who are the victims and what is the damage? I think that one reason forgery stories are so much fun is that no one seems to be really hurt. The immediate victims are the rich--public institutions and private collectors--not to mention the experts who are fooled. And who doesn't like seeing them get their comeuppance? In fact, in most forgery stories it is the forger, rather than the "detective" who eventually does the unmasking, who is cast as the hero. But the truth is that when forgeries go unnoticed we are all victims. When a modern object is taken to be a historical artifact, the past is misrepresented, and hence it is likely to be misunderstood. And because successful forgeries are successful to the degree that they appeal to our modern ideas and ideals about the past, forgeries can contribute significantly to our tendency to re-create the past in the manner most attractive to our modern needs and desires. For that reason I think that when forgeries are recognized and exposed it is important and valuable not to bury--or worse, to destroy--them simply because they are fake and potentially embarrassing, but rather to study and display them so as to employ them as examples of how we are constantly refashioning the past as part of the historical enterprise. They are also useful for the training of students.
How can we put a stop to forgery? That's a tough one. Forgery is closely linked to looting and it operates by many of the same mechanisms: the true origins of the object are necessarily erased, and fakes, like looted artifacts, often come on the art market with a false provenance. In my view, the only effective way to stop forgery, like looting, is not to try to cut off production, but rather to starve it, that is to say, to change the behavior, the desire, of consumers. But unlike the damage done by looters, that done by forgers is not irrevocable. A lost archaeological context can never be recovered, but a false antiquity can be removed from the corpus of genuine material. The damage can be undone. In fact, in some cases one might argue that the production of forgeries can actually protect buried artifacts from looters, satisfying the desires of a ravenous market. But that, perhaps, is an over-optimistic view of the value of fakes.
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altakruri quote: _______________________________________________________________ The Africans and Europeans of Crete were of one culture and people. The founding culture was North African but the population hailed from other Aegean islands, the Peloponnese mainland, and the Levant as well. Africans weren't the majority. The majority population was the unique comingling that produced the disctinct Minoans as drawn by themselves above right.
If you look at the murals published on this thread by Takruri, that were preserved by Sir Arthur Evans, with their rosy cheeks, you would believe that the Cretans were white. But these paintings are misleading. It seems from the evidence presented by Hans George Wunderlich, in The Secret of Crete, that Sir Evans had the murals repainted to depict this view of how ancient Cretans looked. Wunderlich wrote:
Compared to those dark-skinned ancient Cretans the actual Greek immigrants seem like barbarians, devastating and destroying the art and culture that the Minoan artists had created in peaceful rivalry.
........
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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The Africans and Europeans of Crete were of one culture and people. The founding culture was North African but the population hailed from other Aegean islands, the Peloponnese mainland, and the Levant as well. Africans weren't the majority. The majority population was the unique comingling that produced the disctinct Minoans as drawn by themselves above right.
If you look at the murals published on this thread by Takruri, that were preserved by Sir Arthur Evans, with their rosy cheeks, you would believe that the Cretans were white. But these paintings are misleading.
...of the pale looking ladies?...Because in the imagery below, pale skin females reappear. Almost reminiscent of how Egyptians habitually painted female characters in yellowish tones or lighter tones in comparison to their male counterparts; mostly symbolic.
quote:Clyde Winters:
It seems from the evidence presented by Hans George Wunderlich, in The Secret of Crete, that Sir Evans had the murals repainted to depict this view of how ancient Cretans looked. Wunderlich wrote:
Compared to those dark-skinned ancient Cretans the actual Greek immigrants seem like barbarians, devastating and destroying the art and culture that the Minoan artists had created in peaceful rivalry.
Had the 'unspecified' murals been repainted, do we have any info on when this could have occurred?
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The Africans and Europeans of Crete were of one culture and people. The founding culture was North African but the population hailed from other Aegean islands, the Peloponnese mainland, and the Levant as well. Africans weren't the majority. The majority population was the unique comingling that produced the disctinct Minoans as drawn by themselves above right.
You are quite correct Takruri. Also don't forget about Asia Minor. Language was another thing Minoans had in common with other Aegean islands as well as the Greek mainland. Although the language of the Minoans hasn't yet been fully deciphered, many scholars agree that they use similar words and names that had root words like 'nos' and 'sos' and that such words point to a common linguistic origin from Asia Minor.
But yes, the populations of the Aegean and eastern Mediterranean, by and large were 'mixed' because of migrations coming from all sides, from Europe to the north, Africa to the south, and Western Asia to the east.
quote:Despite scholarly recognition of that fact no one labels Minoans "mixed." As much as Eurocentrists cry that African doesn't mean black why then do they insist that European means white? Quite oxymoronic, no?
Very right about that! European scholars recognize that European civilization ultimately stems from the Aegean, however the Eurocentric and white supremacist mindset is uncomfortable with the idea that the very source of European civilization could be 'mixed-race' and destroys their premise of 'white-purity' being the source of all that is good and civilized.
Do you know with what language family from Asia Minor the Minoan language might be connected? I know that Linear A has not been deciphered, although the Myceneans' Linear B has been and the language seems to be early Greek (but the Greek alphabet is derived from Phoenician because Linear B was lost when Mycenean "civilization" was destroyed). But I have also read that a large portion of the Greek lexicon seems to not be related to Indo-European. Does anyone have any hypotheses? Thanks.
Posts: 140 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2006
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^ Linear B script is derived directly from Linear A (the script of the Minoans). As to what actual genetic relations the Minoan language has, scholars are not certain since the Minoan language became extinct and Linear A is not completely deciphered. The only thing we have from Minoan are some names and perhaps a few other words. The basic theory is that Minoan is related to the Pelasgian and other pre-Greek languages of mainland Greece since names and words in that area bear a striking resemblance to Minoan. From there we know that there is a connection to other pre-Indo-European languages of Asia Minor. But since all those pre-Indo-European languages are extinct we may never be certain.
Some scholars also propose a relation to the Etruscan langauge, but Etruscan has the same problem that Minoan has in that the script has not been fully deciphered.
Although that hasn't stopped a few people from making claims that Minoan or Anatolian languages are African Niger-Congo. Posts: 26251 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Although that hasn't stopped a few people from making claims that Minoan or Anatolian languages are African Niger-Congo.
The Minoans did speak an African language. The writing system they used originated in Africa.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Every since Arthur Evans discovered the Hieroglyphic and Linear A writing of Crete there has been a search for the authors of this writing.
Some Grecian traditions indicate that Libyans (called Garamante) formerly lived on Crete. This suggest that some of the Eteocretans may have spoken one of the ancient languages of Libya.
A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.
This theory is interesting because the chariot routes from the Fezzan terminated at the Niger river. In addition, the Cretan term for king "Minos", agrees with the MandeManding word for ruler "Mansa". Both these terms share consonantal agreement : M N S.
The name Garamante, illustrates affinity to Mande morphology and grammar. The Mande language is a member of the Niger-Congo group of languages. The name for the Manding tribe called "Mande", means Ma 'mother, and nde 'children', can be interpreted as "Children of Ma", or "Mothers children " (descent among this group is matrilineal) . The word Garamante,can be broken down into Malinke-Bambara into the following monosyllabic words Ga 'hearth', arid, hot'; Mante/Mande , the name of the Mande speaking tribes. This means that the term: Garamante, can be interpreted as "Mande of the Arid lands" or "Arid lands of the children of Ma". This last term is quite interesting because by the time the Greeks and Romans learned about the Garamante, the Fezzan was becoming increasingly arid.
Keftiu
The Egyptians called the Cretans Keftiu. There is agreement between the Keftiu names recorded by Egyptian scribes (T.E. Peet, "The Egyptian writing board BM5647 bearing Keftiu names". In , (ed.) by S Casson (Oxford, 1927, 90-99)), and Manding names.
Keftiu The root kef-, in Keftiu, probably is Ke'be, the name of a Manding clan , plus the locative suffix {i-} used to give the affirmative sense, plus the plural suffix for names {u-}, and the {-te} suffixial element used to denote place names, nationalities and to form words.
On the Egyptian writing board there are eight Keftiu names. These names agree with Manding names:
Keftiu....... Manding
sh h.r........ Sye
Nsy ..........Nsye
'ksh .........Nkyi
Pnrt Pe,..... Beni (name for twins)
'dm ..........Demba
Rs............. Rsa
This analogy between Keftiu and Manding names is startling.
In conclusion, the evidence of similarity between Keftiu names and names from the Manding languages appear to support Graves view that the Eteocretans, who early settled Crete may have spoken a language similar to the Mande people who live near the Niger. Conseqently, there is every possibility that the Linear A script used by the Keftiu, which is analogous to the Libyco Berber writing used by the Proto-Mande .This is further support to Cambell-Dunn' s hypothesis that the Minoans spoke a Niger-Congo language.
see:
C. A. Winters, "The influence of the Mande scripts on ancient America", de l'IFAN>, t59, serB, no.1, (1977) pp.941-967.
C.A. Winters, "The ancient manding Script", In , (ed.) by Ivan van Sertima, ( London: Rutgers University Press Transaction Press , 1981) pp.208-214), may be written in an aspect of the Manding (Malinke/Bambara) language.
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^ Of course we know the linear A script is derived from Phoenician which in turn is derived from Egyptian script. So the script is indeed African.
But if you argue that the Minoan language itself is a Niger-Congo language, then no Clyde I do not buy your claims as anyone with sense woudln't. Posts: 26251 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Of course we know the linear A script is derived from Phoenician which in turn is derived from Egyptian script. So the script is indeed African.
But if you argue that the Minoan language itself is a Niger-Congo language, then no Clyde I do not buy your claims as anyone with sense woudln't.
We know you are racist and anti Black, and that you only believe that BlackEgypt was an accomplished civilization in Africa.
Since you have so much sense answer these questions with full citations.
1. Please cite the evidence supporting a Phoenician origin for Linear A.
2. If the script is written in Phoenician explain why you can not read the script in Phoenician.
Sorry but one does not have to racist or anti-black to rebuke your silly theories. Egypt is an African civilization because we have overwhelming undeniable evidence for that. What we don't have is any evidence at all that Minoan language is Niger Congo or that "proto-Saharans" were responsible for Sumer or Indus civilization.
Even black Africans like Rasol have called you out on this! I suppose he is an anti-black racist as well. Posts: 26251 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Additional data roundup - the book: The Image of the Black in Western Art has much intriguing detail on Crete besides the famous "running men" fresco.
Batch 4 of Anthro/Archaeo data showing the presence of African traits in the Neolithic data. Below are some anthro/archaeo data affirming the presence of "negroid" traits (more correctly broad African variant) from early times:
quote: "The female of forty-plus years of age from Grave 2 was examined by J. L. Angel who noted what he interpreted as a number of 'negroid' .. traits in the face." The skull is fairly complete, but not enough so for discriminant function analysis." There is marked maxillary prognathism and the orbits may be described as rectangular, traits frequently used in forensic diagnosis of Negro crania... " -- Skeletons of Lerna Hollow. Al B. Wesolowsky. Hesperia, Vol. 42, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1973), pp. 340-351.
"Early Neolithic Macedonia centered on a Dinaric-Mediterranean (type F) average but with an extremely broad nose, more prognathism, and a little more mouth tilt than expected (all, perhaps from negroid development of the incisor region.." -- The people of Lerna: analysis of a prehistoric Aegean population. J.L Angel 1971
"The portrayal on the 'minature fresco' from Thera, and on the other, very fragmentary Aegean frescoes, of diverse stylistic elements- flora a nd fauna, 'negroid' human representations, the riverine setting, of the 'minature fresco,' etc- that seem to be north African, 'Libyan' or Egyptian in origin." --The Aegean and the Orient in the second millennium: proceedings of the 50th anniversary symposium, Cincinnati, 18-20 April 1997
"The inhabitants of the Aegean area in the Bronze Age may have been much like many people in the Mediterranean basin today, short and slight of build with dark hair and eyes and sallow complexions. Skeletons show that the population of the Aegean was already mixed by Neolithic times, and various facial types, some with delicate features and pointed noses, others pug-nosed, almost negroid, are depicted in wall paintings from the 16th century BC..." -- The Home of the Heroes: The Aegean Before the Greeks (1967)
------------------ Scholars also link the Negroid elements to sickle-cell anemia------- QUOTE: "The female from Grave 2 is among those with thickened parietals. It should be pointed out that maxillary prognathsm, one of the skeleton's "Negroid" features, is characteristic both of thalassemia and sickle-cell anemia." -- Skeletons of Lerna Hollow. Al B. Wesolowsky. Hesperia, Vol. 42, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1973), pp. 340-351.
Other elements like Benin Sickle Cell traits are also found among the Greeks and various Africans and some skeletal/cranial studies find African elements in Greece (Angel 1972 for example) QUOTE:
"A late Pleistocene-early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and to Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace 2005) and from archaeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile Valley origin of the "Mesolithic" (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al.; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype. This haplotype originated in West Africa and is probably associated with the spread of malaria to southern Europe through an eastern Mediterranean route (Salares et al. 2004) following the expansion of both human and mosquito populations brought about by the advent of the Neolithic transition (Hume et al 2003; Joy et al. 2003; Rich et al 1998). This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005). In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al 2005), in concordance with a process of demic diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994)."
-- F. X. Ricaut, M. Waelkens. (2008). Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564
Other cultural/archaeo data testify to the African presence, Africans again having a wide range of features
QUOTES "THE FORERUNNERS During the Early Minoan period the population of southern Crete may have included a Negroid element. The presence of such an element from Libya in the Cretan population has been argued on the basis of an inlay of shell now in the Ashmolean Museum. This inlay may have come from an early circular tomb at Ayios Onouphrios. It depicts a bearded face, with thick lips and snub nose. Other objects might lead to the same observation for later periods. Among the faiences showing house fronts (Middle Minoan II)15 there is one in which are seen the prow of a ship and swarthy, prognathous, clearly Negroid people, some steatopygic...
It is uncertain, however, what role to assign to the non-Minoan figures in this scene, which it has been suggested, may represent the represent the siege of a seacoast town. Scholars are in greater agreement with respect to their interpretations of the coal black spearmen who appear in a fragment of a fresco, which Evans called The Captain of the Blacks, belonging to Late Minoan 145 II.18 The fresco depicts a Minoan captain, wearing a yellow kilt and a horned cap of skin, who leads, at the double, a file of black men similarly dressed." -- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1 Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976
"The Theran is a young man whose black wavy hair, rather thick lips, and nose with reduced platyrrniny are clearly shown. Although he acknowledges that these traits suggest a Negrito or Nubian, Marinatos avoids precise anthropological definition and concludes that the characteristics seem to indicate an "African".
"An interpretation of Negroes in Crete and Pylos as soldiers would have some support in the example of Egypt, with its long tradition of Nubian mercenaries. A striking example, belonging somewhat earlier period that that of the Minoan Captain of the Blacks fresco, is provided by the wooden models of forty black archers in Cairo, found in a tomb of a prince of Assiut." pg 138
"L. Bertholon and E. Chantre have analyzed results of black-white crossings in their detailed anthropological study of ancient and modern Tripolitiana, Tunisia, and Algeria. They call attention to the degrees of Negro admixture as evidenced by the extent to which Negroid features appear in mixed North African peoples. R. Bartoccini in his study of the somatic characteristics of ancient Libyans, illustrates his observations on racial crossings between Libyans and Negroes from the interior by pointing to the Negroid nose (broad) and hair (curly or wooly) .."
"Some of the physical features of this type are: dark or black color expressed in a variety of ways, tightly curled platyrrhine nose, and thick, often everted lips. '
"In a scene on a red-figured calyx-krater of the period from Canicattoni, now in Syracuse, a female dancer, fully draped, stands on tiptoe. The treatment of the nose, the lips and the tightly curled hair indicates that Negroid features were intended.. the realism and anthropological fidelity of those cited above leave no doubt as to the artists' intent.." pg 171 -- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1 Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976
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