Supercar quote: ________________________________________________________ Something interesting though, these folks supposedly spread “Mande” civilization, but there are “Mande” speaking folks with their various cultures in west Africa. I could have sworn that you mentioned that the proto-Olmecs couldn’t settle along the Niger River, because of heavy forest and disease like sleeping sickness. So these proto-Olmecs just decided not to follow suite as their “Mande” colleagues. Did they consider themselves too smart to mix with other Mande speakers in the region, or were they considered ‘outcasts’ by other Mande speakers? What common cultural traits do the Olmec “Mande civilization” have with its African “Mande” counterparts, that can be deemed as undeniable links between them? __________________________________________________________
The Olmec religion or cult associations provide the best example of Mande: Malinke-Bambara cultural influences among the Olmecs. The best source of information on the Malinke-Bambara religion is G. Dieterlen (1957) Essai sur le religion Bambara . Dieterlen makes it clear that the Mande culture was transmitted within the Komow : traditional secret society of the Mande.
The two main deities of the Mande were Bemba and Faro. Bemba was the invisible Creator of mankind. Faro, was the visible god who was recognized as androgynous (male-female). The symbol of faro was twins. As a result, in traditional Malinke-Bambara society twins represented the two fold nature of Faro
We learn from the Dieterlen that the first Bambara-Malinke ancestors transformed into Birds and hyenas (Felines). This tradition led to the origin of the two major Mande cult associations Kuno (Bird) and Nama (Feline), gyo/jo ‘cult associations
The Nama (feline) initiatory society was organized to maintain order within society. The members of this jo were to insure ceremonial unity and defeat sorcery The leader of the Nama Jo , wear mask which combine totems of komo, horns and the mask represented immense spiritual power according to Zahan Dominique (1974), The Bambara .
The Komo was administered by sculptor-smiths. Their role was to guard society from people committing antisocial acts and protect people from malevolent spirits.
The leader of the Jo cult association was the Komo-tigi ‘chief of the komo’ . The Komo, teaches initiates ‘leadership’, self-sufficiency, military prowess and scientific knowledge.
The komo acculturated the Mande children. Thusly the children in the komo were called tigi-denw: ‘children of the tigi’ . The children often served as tigi-tuguw “carriers of the torches’.
The children belonged to the ntomo or n’domo . The ntomo association was charged with making the initiates “noble”.
And understanding of the traditional, pre-Islamic religion of the Malinke-Bambara allows us an intimate understanding of the Olmec religion.
The principal Olmec cult associations was that of the bird and the feline. This religious tradition of the Olmec, passed on to the Maya, are mentioned in the Book of Chumayel, which maintains that the three main cult associations that are suppose to have existed in ancient times were (1) the stone (cutters) cult, (2) the jaguar cult and (3) the bird cult. In lines 4-6 of the Book of Chumayel , we read that "Those with their sign in the bird, those with their sign in the stone, flat worked stone, those with their sign in the Jaguar-three emblems-".(Brotherston 1979).
The Olmec left testimony to this religious tradition in their art. These documents in sto ne indicate that the Olmec had to cult associations that of the Bird Mask and that of the Feline Mask. The Book of Chumayel, corresponds to the gylphs depicted on Monument 13 at La Venta .
. On Monument 13, at La Venta a personage in profile, he has a headress on his head and wears a breechcloth, jewels and sandals, along with four glyphs listed one above the other. The glyphs included the stone, the jaguar, and the bird emblems. Monument 13, at La Venta also has a fourth sign to the left of the personage a foot gylphs. This monument has been described as an altar or a low column.
The foot in Olmec is called "se", this symbols means to "lead or advance toward knowledge, or success". The "se" (foot) sign of the komow (cults) represent the beginning of the Olmec initiates pursuit of knowledge.
The meaning of Monument 13, reading from top to bottom, are a circle kulu/ kaba (the stone), nama (jaguar) and the kuno (bird). The interpretation of this column reading from left to right is "The advance toward success--power--for the initiate is obedience to the stone cutters cult, jaguar cult and the bird cult". The Jaguar mask association dominated the Olmec Gulf region.
In the central and southern Olmec regions we find the bird mask association predominate as typified by the Xoc bas relief of Chiapas, and the Bas Relief No.2, of Chalcatzingo. Another bird mask cult association was located in the state of Guerrero as evidenced by the humano-bird figure of the Stelae from San Miguel Amuco.
The religious orders spoken of in this stela are the Bird and Jaguar cults. These Olmec cults were Nama or the Humano-Jaguar cult; and Kuno or Bird cult. The leader of the Nama cult was called the Nama-tigi (see Nama chief Illustration 7 Stela No.5 Izapa) , or Amatigi (head of the faith). The leader of the Kuno cult was the Kuno-tigi (Kuno chief see Illustration 6 Stela No.5). These cult leaders initiated the Olmec into the mysteries of the cult.
Among the Olmecs this flame signified the luminous character of knowledge. The Kuno priest wears a conical hat(see Illustration No.6). The evidence of the conical hat on the Kuno priest is important evidence of the Manding in ancient America. The conical hat in Meso-America is associated with Amerindian priesthood and as a symbol of political and religious authority . Leo Wiener (1922, v.II: p.321) wrote that: "That the kingly and priestly cap of the Magi should have been preserved in America in the identical form, with the identical decoration,and should, besides, have kept the name current for it among the Mandingo [Malinke-Bambara/Manding] people , makes it impossible to admit any other solution than the one that the Mandingoes established the royal offices in Mexico".
Acculturation of children was an important part duty of the Olmec priesthood. As a result we find many examples of children being provided knowledge by the priest.
The Olmec child is very evident in Olmec art. To the Olmec childhood represent the primitive state of mankind, when man was pure and ignorant of nature. Thus the child in Olmec art represents the human being when he left his creator’s hands: uncircumcised and androgynous.
Adults respected children very much. This view is supported by the motifs on Altar No.5 of LaVenta. On this monument we see a personage emerging from the stone altar with the glyph po gbe ‘Pure Righteousness’ on his headdress. He is carrying a babe in his arms resting on his lap.
On the other side of the monument we see two personages, each with a different helmet style. These scenes suggest that the Olmec child was to learn wisdom, this is illustrated by the animated conversation between the child and the priest.
On the right-hand side we see a priest and a child again. This time the priest has a snake on his helmet. Instead of carrying the child on his lap in this scene, the child is carried on the personage’s side and wearing a jaguar mask. This indicates that once the child completed the initiation he was recognized a individual to be respected capable of giving advise to adults.
These examples from Olmec iconography make it clear that the Olmec religion is exactly the same as the pre-Islamic religion of the Malinke Bambara.
Posted by Nimr (Member # 10456) on :
I read your whole post and all I saw was speculation, hearsay and affirmative tatements that do not set forth from any of what you have presented. Feel free to summarize in a few statements your claim in a: evidence, claim, how evidence relates to claim form.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:The conical hat in Meso-America is associated with Amerindian priesthood and as a symbol of political and religious authority . Leo Wiener (1922, v.II: p.321) wrote that: "That the kingly and priestly cap of the Magi should have been preserved in America in the identical form, with the identical decoration,and should, besides, have kept the name current for it among the Mandingo [Malinke-Bambara/Manding] people , makes it impossible to admit any other solution than the one that the Mandingoes established the royal offices in Mexico".
This is interesting. I appreciate the citations when they consist of actual quotes.
What work of Wieners is being referenced?
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
rasol quote: ____________________________________________________________ This is interesting. I appreciate the citations when they consist of actual quotes.
What work of Wieners is being referenced? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This quote is from Wiener, Africa and the Discovery of America, Volume 2, p.321.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Kifaru
quote:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by King_Scorpion: I actually find the Olmec-African connection intriging in the sense that you can't deny that they used the Mande script...and destinctly West African thing. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
See that's the thing I'm talking about. To my knowledge there has yet to be any DNA or verifiable linguistic evidence of this. No Mande trade goods have been found. Negroid features are not unique to "negroes". When scientists or anybody talks about theories like they are facts it leads to entrenched ideological positions and hinders the advancement of the science.
There is considerable evidence of an African Mande influence on the Olmec besides the linguistic material. For example, the Olmec/Si/Mande introduced their religion to the Amerindians.
The Olmec religion or cult associations provide the best example of Mande: Malinke-Bambara cultural influences among the Olmecs. The best source of information on the Malinke-Bambara religion is G. Dieterlen (1957) Essai sur le religion Bambara . Dieterlen makes it clear that the Mande culture was transmitted within the Komow : traditional secret society of the Mande.
The two main deities of the Mande were Bemba and Faro. Bemba was the invisible Creator of mankind. Faro, was the visible god who was recognized as androgynous (male-female). The symbol of faro was twins. As a result, in traditional Malinke-Bambara society twins represented the two fold nature of Faro
We learn from the Dieterlen that the first Bambara-Malinke ancestors transformed into Birds and hyenas (Felines). This tradition led to the origin of the two major Mande cult associations Kuno (Bird) and Nama (Feline), gyo/jo ‘cult associations
The Nama (feline) initiatory society was organized to maintain order within society. The members of this jo were to insure ceremonial unity and defeat sorcery The leader of the Nama Jo , wear mask which combine totems of komo, horns and the mask represented immense spiritual power according to Zahan Dominique (1974), The Bambara .
The Komo was administered by sculptor-smiths. Their role was to guard society from people committing antisocial acts and protect people from malevolent spirits.
The leader of the Jo cult association was the Komo-tigi ‘chief of the komo’ . The Komo, teaches initiates ‘leadership’, self-sufficiency, military prowess and scientific knowledge.
The komo acculturated the Mande children. Thusly the children in the komo were called tigi-denw: ‘children of the tigi’ . The children often served as tigi-tuguw “carriers of the torches’.
The children belonged to the ntomo or n’domo . The ntomo association was charged with making the initiates “noble”.
And understanding of the traditional, pre-Islamic religion of the Malinke-Bambara allows us an intimate understanding of the Olmec religion.
The principal Olmec cult associations was that of the bird and the feline. This religious tradition of the Olmec, passed on to the Maya, are mentioned in the Book of Chumayel, which maintains that the three main cult associations that are suppose to have existed in ancient times were (1) the stone (cutters) cult, (2) the jaguar cult and (3) the bird cult. In lines 4-6 of the Book of Chumayel , we read that "Those with their sign in the bird, those with their sign in the stone, flat worked stone, those with their sign in the Jaguar-three emblems-".(Brotherston 1979).
The Olmec left testimony to this religious tradition in their art. These documents in sto ne indicate that the Olmec had to cult associations that of the Bird Mask and that of the Feline Mask. The Book of Chumayel, corresponds to the gylphs depicted on Monument 13 at La Venta .
. On Monument 13, at La Venta a personage in profile, he has a headress on his head and wears a breechcloth, jewels and sandals, along with four glyphs listed one above the other. The glyphs included the stone, the jaguar, and the bird emblems. Monument 13, at La Venta also has a fourth sign to the left of the personage a foot gylphs. This monument has been described as an altar or a low column.
The foot in Olmec is called "se", this symbols means to "lead or advance toward knowledge, or success". The "se" (foot) sign of the komow (cults) represent the beginning of the Olmec initiates pursuit of knowledge.
The meaning of Monument 13, reading from top to bottom, are a circle kulu/ kaba (the stone), nama (jaguar) and the kuno (bird). The interpretation of this column reading from left to right is "The advance toward success--power--for the initiate is obedience to the stone cutters cult, jaguar cult and the bird cult". The Jaguar mask association dominated the Olmec Gulf region.
In the central and southern Olmec regions we find the bird mask association predominate as typified by the Xoc bas relief of Chiapas, and the Bas Relief No.2, of Chalcatzingo. Another bird mask cult association was located in the state of Guerrero as evidenced by the humano-bird figure of the Stelae from San Miguel Amuco.
The religious orders spoken of in this stela are the Bird and Jaguar cults. These Olmec cults were Nama or the Humano-Jaguar cult; and Kuno or Bird cult. The leader of the Nama cult was called the Nama-tigi (see Nama chief Illustration 7 Stela No.5 Izapa) , or Amatigi (head of the faith). The leader of the Kuno cult was the Kuno-tigi (Kuno chief see Illustration 6 Stela No.5). These cult leaders initiated the Olmec into the mysteries of the cult.
Among the Olmecs this flame signified the luminous character of knowledge. The Kuno priest wears a conical hat(see Illustration No.6). The evidence of the conical hat on the Kuno priest is important evidence of the Manding in ancient America. The conical hat in Meso-America is associated with Amerindian priesthood and as a symbol of political and religious authority . Leo Wiener (1922, v.II: p.321) wrote that: "That the kingly and priestly cap of the Magi should have been preserved in America in the identical form, with the identical decoration,and should, besides, have kept the name current for it among the Mandingo [Malinke-Bambara/Manding] people , makes it impossible to admit any other solution than the one that the Mandingoes established the royal offices in Mexico".
Acculturation of children was an important part duty of the Olmec priesthood. As a result we find many examples of children being provided knowledge by the priest.
The Olmec child is very evident in Olmec art. To the Olmec childhood represent the primitive state of mankind, when man was pure and ignorant of nature. Thus the child in Olmec art represents the human being when he left his creator’s hands: uncircumcised and androgynous.
Adults respected children very much. This view is supported by the motifs on Altar No.5 of LaVenta. On this monument we see a personage emerging from the stone altar with the glyph po gbe ‘Pure Righteousness’ on his headdress. He is carrying a babe in his arms resting on his lap.
On the other side of the monument we see two personages, each with a different helmet style. These scenes suggest that the Olmec child was to learn wisdom, this is illustrated by the animated conversation between the child and the priest.
On the right-hand side we see a priest and a child again. This time the priest has a snake on his helmet. Instead of carrying the child on his lap in this scene, the child is carried on the personage’s side and wearing a jaguar mask. This indicates that once the child completed the initiation he was recognized a individual to be respected capable of giving advise to adults.
These examples from Olmec iconography make it clear that the Olmec religion is exactly the same as the pre-Islamic religion of the Malinke Bambara.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
King_Scorpion:
quote:
I don't have any problem with Winters myself...I actually find the Olmec-African connection intriging in the sense that you can't deny that they used the Mande script...and destinctly West African thing. I know that it was very much possible for the Ancients to cross the Atlantic. The Vikings did it, and maybe other cultures too. The only reason I'm still skeptical is because there has been no trace of ships of evidence of a sea-faring nation in West Africa. I know a port used on the modern coast of Morocco going out into the Atlantic was used by the Phoenocians. I think to make the claim irrefutable we need something more than the language sadly.
It was even noted in Black Spark, White Fire when Poe mentioned that "in 1974, the Polish craniologist Andrzej Wiercinski revealed that no fewer than 13.5% of the skeletons found from the Olmec cemetary of Tlatilco were Negroid
As you can see from the above the ancient Maya look nothing like the Olmecs.
Some people claim that they have seen Olmec figures that look like contemporary native Americans. This may be true but practically all of the Olmec figures look African. At the following site I compare the Mayan type and the African type: http://www.geocities.com/olmec982000/olwrit.htm.htm
Many contemporary Mexicans look like Africans or Blacks because of the slave trade, which brought hundreds of thousands of Africans to Mexico to work in the mines and perform other task for their masters. A Cursory examination of these pictures of the Maya show that the ancient Maya look nothing like the Olmecs. How do they explain the fact that the Olmec look nothing like the Mayan people, if the Olmec were “indigenous” people they talk about.
Moreover, just because Africans may have come to America with Columbus, does not prove that they were not here before Columbus. Yet, subscription to these theories is logical, but logical assurance alone, is not good science.
Logically we could say that because Amerindians live in the Olmec heartland today, they may have lived in these areas 3000 years ago. But, the evidence found by Swadesh, an expert on the Mayan languages, of a new linguistic group invading the Olmec heartland 3000 years ago; and the lack of congruence between Olmec and Mayan art completely falsifies the conjectures of the Amerindian origin of the Olmec theorists. The opposite theory, an African origin for the Olmecs, deserves testing.
Some researchers claim that there is no scientific basis for the ability of African people to have remained unabsorbed in America. This is totally false there are many reports of Black tribes living in America when Europeans arrived in the New World.
The scientific evidence supports the African origin and perpetuation of an Olmec civilization in Mesoamerica from 1200 BC, up to around 400 AD. Let’s examine this theory. My hypothesis is that the Olmec people were Africans. There are five variables that support this theorem. They are: the following variables: 1) African scripts found during archaeological excavation; 2) the Malinke-Bambara origin of the Mayan term for writing; 3) cognate iconographic representations of African and Olmec personages; 4) the influence of Malinke-Bambara cultural and linguistic features on historic Mesoamerican populations; and 5) the presence of African skeletal material excavated from Olmec graves in addition to many other variables. The relation between these five variables or a combination of these variables explains the African origin of the Olmecs.
Let’s begin with the skeletal evidence. Some researchers maintain that the African was not indigenous to America. Although you make this claim you fail to acknowledge that in addition to Wiercinski’ analysis of the Olmec skeletons, many other researchers including C.C. Marquez, Estudios arqueologicos y ethnografico (Madrid,1920), Roland B. Dixon, The racial history of Man (N.Y.,1923) and Ernest Hooton, Up from the Ape (N.Y.,1931) and the Luzia remains make it clear that Africans were in the Americas before the native Americans crossed the Bearing Sea.
Supporters of the Native American origin of the Olmecs speak of people being absorbed by the Native Americans. Yet we know from the expansion of the Europeans in the Western Hemisphere, Eventhough the Native Americans outnumbered these people, they are in decline while the Europeans have prospered and multiplied.
Dr. Wiercinski (1972) claims that the some of the Olmecs were of African origin. He supports this claim with skeletal evidence from several Olmec sites where he found skeletons that were analogous to the West African type black. Wiercinski discovered that 13.5 percent of the skeletons from Tlatilco and 4.5 percent of the skeletons from Cerro de las Mesas were Africoid (Rensberger,1988; Wiercinski, 1972; Wiercinski & Jairazbhoy 1975).
Diehl and Coe (1995, 12) of Harvard University have made it clear that until a skeleton of an African is found on an Olmec site he will not accept the art evidence that the were Africans among the Olmecs. This is rather surprising because Constance Irwin and Dr. Wiercinski (1972) have both reported that skeletal remains of Africans have been found in Mexico. Constance Irwin, in Fair Gods and Stone Faces, says that anthropologist see "distinct signs of Negroid ancestry in many a New World skull...."
Dr. Wiercinski (1972) claims that some of the Olmecs were of African origin. He supports this claim with skeletal evidence from several Olmec sites where he found skeletons that were analogous to the West African type black. Many Olmec skulls show cranial deformations (Pailles, 1980), yet Wiercinski (1972b) was able to determine the ethnic origins of the Olmecs. Marquez (1956, 179-80) made it clear that a common trait of the African skulls found in Mexico include marked prognathousness ,prominent cheek bones are also mentioned. Fronto-occipital deformation among the Olmec is not surprising because cranial deformations was common among the Mande speaking people until fairly recently (Desplanges, 1906).
Many African skeletons have been found in Mexico. Carlo Marquez (1956, pp.179-180) claimed that these skeletons indicated marked pronathousness and prominent cheek bones.
Wiercinski found African skeletons at the Olmec sites of Monte Alban, Cerro de las Mesas and Tlatilco. Morley, Brainerd and Sharer (1989) said that Monte Alban was a colonial Olmec center (p.12).
Diehl and Coe (1996) admitted that the inspiration of Olmec Horizon A, common to San Lorenzo's iniitial phase has been found at Tlatilco. Moreover, the pottery from this site is engraved with Olmec signs.
According to Wiercinski (1972b) Africans represented more than 13.5 percent of the skeletal remains found at Tlatilco and 4.5 percent of the Cerro remains (see Table 2). Wiercinski (1972b) studied a total of 125 crania from Tlatilco and Cerro.
There were 38 males and 62 female crania in the study from Tlatilco and 18 males and 7 females from Cerro. Whereas 36 percent of the skeletal remains were of males, 64 percent were women (Wiercinski, 1972b).
To determine the racial heritage of the ancient Olmecs, Dr. Wiercinski (1972b) used classic diagnostic traits determined by craniometric and cranioscopic methods. These measurements were then compared to a series of three crania sets from Poland, Mongolia and Uganda to represent the three racial categories of mankind.
In Table 1, we have the racial composition of the Olmec skulls. The only European type recorded in this table is the Alpine group which represents only 1.9 percent of the crania from Tlatilco. Table 1.Olmec Races Racial Type Tlatilco Norm Percent Cerro de Mesas Norm Percent Subpacific Dongolan Subainuid Pacific Armenoid Armenoid-Bushman Anatolian Alpine Ainuid Ainuid-Arctic Laponoid-Equatorial Pacific-Equatorial
The other alleged "white" crania from Wiercinski's typology of Olmec crania, represent the Dongolan (19.2 percent), Armenoid (7.7 percent), Armenoid-Bushman (3.9 percent) and Anatolian (3.9 percent). The Dongolan, Anatolian and Armenoid terms are euphemisms for the so-called "Brown Race" "Dynastic Race", "Hamitic Race",and etc., which racist Europeans claimed were the founders of civilization in Africa.
Poe (1997), Keita (1993,1996), Carlson and Gerven (1979)and MacGaffey (1970) have made it clear that these people were Africans or Negroes with so-called 'caucasian features' resulting from genetic drift and microevolution (Keita, 1996; Poe, 1997). This would mean that the racial composition of 26.9 percent of the crania found at Tlatilco and 9.1 percent of crania from Cerro de las Mesas were of African origin.
In Table 2, we record the racial composition of the Olmec according to the Wiercinski (1972b) study. The races recorded in this table are based on the Polish Comparative-Morphological School (PCMS). The PCMS terms are misleading. As mentioned earlier the Dongolan , Armenoid, and Equatorial groups refer to African people with varying facial features which are all Blacks. This is obvious when we look at the iconographic and sculptural evidence used by Wiercinski (1972b) to support his conclusions.
Wiercinski (1972b) compared the physiognomy of the Olmecs to corresponding examples of Olmec sculptures and bas-reliefs on the stelas. For example, Wiercinski (1972b, p.160) makes it clear that the clossal Olmec heads represent the Dongolan type. It is interesting to note that the emperical frequencies of the Dongolan type at Tlatilco is .231, this was more than twice as high as Wiercinski's theorectical figure of .101, for the presence of Dongolans at Tlatilco.
The other possible African type found at Tlatilco and Cerro were the Laponoid group. The Laponoid group represents the Austroloid-Melanesian type of (Negro) Pacific Islander, not the Mongolian type. If we add together the following percent of the Olmecs represented in Table 2, by the Laponoid (21.2%), Equatorial (13.5), and Armenoid (18.3) groups we can assume that at least 53 percent of the Olmecs at Tlatilco were Africans or Blacks. Using the same figures recorded in Table 2 for Cerro,we observe that 40.8 percent of these Olmecs would have been classified as Black if they lived in contemporary America.
Rossum (1996) has criticied the work of Wiercinski because he found that not only blacks, but whites were also present in ancient America. To support this view he (1) claims that Wiercinski was wrong because he found that Negro/Black people lived in Shang China, and 2) that he compared ancient skeletons to modern Old World people.
First, it was not surprising that Wiercinski found affinities between African and ancient Chinese populations, because everyone knows that many Negro/African /Oceanic skeletons (referred to as Loponoid by the Polish school) have been found in ancient China see: Kwang-chih Chang The Archaeology of ancient China (1976,1977, p.76,1987, pp.64,68). These Blacks were spread throughout Kwangsi, Kwantung, Szechwan, Yunnan and Pearl River delta.
Skeletons from Liu-Chiang and Dawenkou, early Neolithic sites found in China, were also Negro. Moreover, the Dawenkou skeletons show skull deformation and extraction of teeth customs, analogous to customs among Blacks in Polynesia and Africa.
This makes it clear that we can not ignore the evidence. I have tried to keep up with the literature in this field over the past 30 years and I would appreciate someone reproducing on this forum citations of the articles which have conclusively disconfirmed the skeletal evidence of Wiercinski.
The fact remains African skeletons were found in Mesoamerica. This archaeological evidence supports the view that the Olmec were predominately African when we examine the anthropological language used to describe the Olmec skeletons analyzed by Wiercinski. See: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/Skeletal.htm
The genetic evidence supports the skeletal evidence that Africans have been in Mexico for thousands of years. The genetic evidence for Africans among the Mexicans is quite interesting. This evidence supports the skeletal evidence that Africans have lived in Mexico for thousands of years.
The foundational mtDNA lineages for Mexican Indians are lineages A, B, C and D.The frequencies of these lineages vary among population groups. For example, whereas lineages A,B and C were present among Maya at Quintana Roo, Maya at Copan lacked lineages A and B (Gonzalez-Oliver, et al, 2001). This supports Carolina Bonilla et al (2005) view that heterogeneity is a major characteristic of Mexican population.
Underhill, et al (1996) noted that:" One Mayan male, previously [has been] shown to have an African Y chromosome." This is very interesting because the Maya language illustrates a Mande substratum, in addition to African genetic markers. James l. Gutherie (2000) in a study of the HLAs in indigenous American populations, found that the Vantigen of the Rhesus system, considered to be an indication of African ancestry, among Indians in Belize and Mexico centers of Mayan civilization. Dr. Gutherie also noted that A*28 common among Africans has high frequencies among Eastern Maya. It is interesting to note that the Otomi, a Mexican group identified as being of African origin and six Mayan groups show the B Allele of the ABO system that is considered to be of African origin.
Some researchers claim that as many as seventy-five percent of the Mexicans have an African heritage (Green et al, 2000). Although this may be the case Cuevas (2004) says these Africans have been erased from history.
The admixture of Africans and Mexicans make it impossible to compare pictures of contemporary Mexicans and the Olmec. Due to the fact that 75% of the contemporary Mexicans have African genes you find that many of them look similar to the Olmecs whereas the ancient Maya did not.
In a discussion of the Mexican and African admixture in Mexico Lisker et al (1996) noted that the East Coast of Mexico had extensive admixture. The following percentages of African ancestry were found among East coast populations: Paraiso - 21.7%; El Carmen - 28.4% ;Veracruz - 25.6%; Saladero - 30.2%; and Tamiahua - 40.5%. Among Indian groups, Lisker et al (1996) found among the Chontal have 5% and the Cora .8% African admixture. The Chontal speak a Mayan language. According to Crawford et al. (1974), the mestizo population of Saltillo has 15.8% African ancestry, while Tlaxcala has 8% and Cuanalan 18.1%. The Olmecs built their civilization in the region of the current states of Veracruz and Tabasco. Now here again are the percentages of African ancestry according to Lisker et al (1996): Paraiso - 21.7% ; El Carmen - 28.4% ; Veracruz - 25.6% ; Saladero - 30.2% ; Tamiahua - 40.5%. Paraiso is in Tabasco and Veracruz is, of course, in the state of Veracruz. Tamiahua is in northern Veracruz. These areas were the first places in Mexico settled by the Olmecs. I'm not sure about Saladero and El Carmen.
Given the frequency of African admixture with the Mexicans a comparison of Olmec mask, statuettes and other artifacts show many resemblances to contemporary Mexican groups. As illustrated by the photo below.
But a comparison of Olmec figures with ancient Mayan figures , made before the importation of hundreds of thousands of slaves Mexico during the Atlantic Slave Trade show no resemblance at all to the Olmec figures.
Mayan Olmec Mayan
This does not mean that the Maya had no contact with the Africans. This results from the fact that we know the Maya obtained much of their culture, arts and writings from the Olmecs. And many of their gods, especially those associated with trade are of Africans. We also find some images of Blacks among Mayan art.
African ancestry has been found among indigenous groups that have had no historical contact with African slaves and thus support an African presence in America, already indicated by African skeletons among the Olmec people. Lisker et al, noted that “The variation of Indian ancestry among the studied Indians shows in general a higher proportion in the more isolated groups, except for the Cora, who are as isolated as the Huichol and have not only a lower frequency but also a certain degree of black admixture. The black admixture is difficult to explain because the Cora reside in a mountainous region away from the west coast”. Green et al (2000) also found Indians with African genes in North Central Mexico, including the L1 and L2 clusters. Green et al (2000) observed that the discovery of a proportion of African haplotypes roughly equivalent to the proportion of European haplotypes [among North Central Mexican Indians] cannot be explained by recent admixture of African Americans for the United States. This is especially the case for the Ojinaga area, which presently is, and historically has been largely isolated from U.S. African Americans. In the Ojinaga sample set, the frequency of African haplotypes was higher that that of European hyplotypes”.
•
References Carlson,D. and Van Gerven,D.P. (1979). Diffussion, biological determinism and bioculdtural adaptation in the Nubian corridor,American Anthropologist, 81, 561-580.
M.H. Crawford et al (1974).Human biology in Mexico II. A comparison of blood group, serum, and red cell enzyme frequencies and genetic distances of the Indian population of Mexico. Am. Phys. Anthropol, 41: 251-268.
Marco P. Hernadez Cuevas.(2004). African Mexicans and the discourse on Modern Mexico.Oxford: University Press.
James L. Guthrie, Human lymphocyte antigens:Apparent Afro-Asiatic, southern Asian and European HLAs in indigenous American populations. Retrieved 3/3/2006 at: http://www.neara.org/Guthrie/lymphocyteantigens02.htm
R. Lisker et al.(1996). Genetic structure of autochthonous populations of Meso-america:Mexico. Am. J. Hum Biol 68:395-404.
Desplagnes, M. (1906). Deux nouveau cranes humains de cites lacustres. L'Anthropologie, 17, 134-137.
Diehl, R. A., & Coe, M.D. (1995). "Olmec archaeology". In In Jill Guthrie (Ed.), Ritual and Rulership, (pp.11-25). The Art Museum: Princeton University Press.
Irwin,C.Fair Gods and Stone Faces.
Keita,S.O.Y. (1993). Studies and comments on ancient Egyptian biological relationships, History in Africa, 20, 129-131.
Keita,S.O.Y.& Kittles,R.A. (1997). The persistence of racial thinking and the myth of racial divergence, American Anthropologist, 99 (3), 534-544.
MacGaffey,W.(1970). Comcepts of race in Northeast Africa. In J.D. Fage and R.A. Oliver, Papers in African Prehistory (pp.99-115), Camridge: Cambridge University Press.
Marquez,C.(1956). Estudios arqueologicas y ethnograficas. Mexico.
Rensberger, B. ( September, 1988). Black kings of ancient America", Science Digest, 74-77 and 122.
Underhill,P.A.,Jin,L., Zemans,R., Oefner,J and Cavalli-Sforza,L.L.(1996, January). A pre-Columbian Y chromosome-specific transition and its implications for human evolutionary history, Proceedings of the National Academy of Science USA,93, 196-200.
Von Wuthenau, Alexander. (1980). Unexplained Faces in Ancient America, 2nd Edition, Mexico 1980.
Wiercinski, A.(1969). Affinidades raciales de algunas poblaiones antiquas de Mexico, Anales de INAH, 7a epoca, tomo II, 123-143.
Wiercinski,A. (1972). Inter-and Intrapopulational Racial Differentiation of Tlatilco, Cerro de Las Mesas, Teothuacan, Monte Alban and Yucatan Maya, XXXlX Congreso Intern. de Americanistas, Lima 1970 ,Vol.1, 231-252.
Wiercinski,A. (1972b). An anthropological study on the origin of "Olmecs", Swiatowit ,33, 143-174.
Wiercinski, A. & Jairazbhoy, R.A. (1975) "Comment", The New Diffusionist,5 (18),5.
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Posted by TK (Member # 10103) on :
Whoa!!! This is alot to digest. I never knew that Mexican's had so much African admixture in them. This is interesting stuff. I hope this topic stays active.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Takruri ____________________________________________________________ Can anyone produce Mande art from Mauritania/Mali of this same time period, 1200 BCE - 200 CE, that's of the same worksmanship and representative style resembling either the Colosal Cabezos, ceramic, or jade art pieces of humans of the Xi era? Did the pre CE Mande play ball? __________________________________________________________________
It is very difficult to produce picture of artifacts discovered in the Sahara of mande manufacture because they are not published. But from the literature we know that the people around the time the Olmecs were making artifacts in a green stone similar to jade.
Recently, archaeologist in Ivory Coast have discovered stone heads three feet tall they indicate that West Africans had the ability to scuplt stone heads.
The heads have yet to be accurately dated but similar stones in Senegal date back as far as 2,000 years.
``No one knows what role the heads played in ancient times,'' Niangoran-Bouah said.
``They are not the work of men known to us or our ancestors,'' said Ta-bi-Tra, a hunter at Gohitafla, now inhabited by Ivorian President Henri Konan Bedie's ruling Baoule tribe. Baoule warriors arrived there under Queen Abla Pokou in the 17th century, displacing Gouro tribes who in turn had pushed out the Wan culture in the 15th century.
``The Wan consider them to be ancestral objects,'' said Niangoran-Bouah, citing the stories of nearby Wan descendants, including a theory that the heads betrayed them to the enemy.
The heads are also seen as grave charms for Wan warriors, homes for dead mens' souls or guardian spirits and talismans.
``We make offerings for a safe voyage, to find a good partner or fight off evil sorcerers, eaters of souls, jealous people and poisoners,'' said one soothsayer. ``We trust them.''
Animal sacrifices in cult rituals ensured successful childbirth and stone heads still play a part in ritual exorcisms and purification of adulterers. One man described being inhabited by a spirit from stones surrounding his house. ``I have 13 children, they all come from the stones.''
Prehistoric stone heads have been found around the world, from Africa to Europe and America. Marahoue's are thought to be among the largest and oldest along Africa's Atlantic coast.
Ivorian standing stones are larger than average and found deeper in the ground than similar African examples, suggesting a greater age of up to 7,000 years, Niangoran-Bouah said.
Such African megaliths weighing between half a ton and 15 tons are found in a northwestern strip on the Mediterranean and pockets in a wide west-east sub-Saharan band between Senegal and Kenya. Villagers showed Reuters a 19-foot rock said to be one of the largest African megaliths.
.......
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
Very interesting.
I have always wondered about the attempt to connect west africans to massive stone scultures from the America's given the lack of contemporary West African stone sculptures.
Not saying I agree that it specifically links Mande to Olmec, but frankly I consider that less important than simply documenting ancient African megalithic artwork. Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
Winters, did you know there is evidence of black tribal people in South America before the Slave Trade?
There was a multitude of European explorers who left eyewitness accounts of black people living amoung the Indians at the time of the Spanish conquest. From Black Spark, White Fire
...For instance, during his 1513 march to the Pacific Ocean, Vasco Nunez de Balboa stumbled on an Indian village where he found a number of black war captives being held. "Balboa asked the Indians where they got them," wrote Lopez de Gomara in his 1554 'Historia de Mexico', "but they could not tell, nor did they know more than this, that men of this color were living nearby and they were constantly waging war on them. These were the first Negroes that had been seen in the Indies." Peter Martyr d'Anghera, another early historian of the Spanish Conquest, wrote of this same tribe of Central American blacks: "The Spaniards found Negroes in this province. They only live one days march from Quarequa and they are fierce...It is thought that Negro pirates from Ethiopia established themselves after the wreck of their ships in these mountains. The natives of Quarequa carry on incessant war with these Negroes."
The two early historians make it clear that these "Negro" Indians seemed out of place compared to the other native population. What I find intriging is where they thought they came from!
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Whoa this is news to me good post King Scorpion. So their was blacks from Africa in the Americas before Colombus. If this is true I wonder why you don't hear more about these eye witness accounts. This is good stuff. Also to read that Mexicans have so much African Admixture is also a surprise. If this is all true then it needs to be published more then it is.
Peace
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
King_Scorpion
quote: Winters, did you know there is evidence of black tribal people in South America before the Slave Trade?
There was a multitude of European explorers who left eyewitness accounts of black people living amoung the Indians at the time of the Spanish conquest. From Black Spark, White Fire
Yes I heard about this. I heard that Rafinesque wrote a wonder article about these people but, I have not been able to find the article. Maybe someone in Washington ,D.C., can go to the Library of Congress and find the article.
I believe that he mentions an American tribe which was related to the Ashanti. But I read this over twenty years ago so I can not be sure where the source is.
..
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
King_Scorpion
quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't have any problem with Winters myself...I actually find the Olmec-African connection intriging in the sense that you can't deny that they used the Mande script...a destinctly West African thing. I know that it was very much possible for the Ancients to cross the Atlantic. The Vikings did it, and maybe other cultures too. The only reason I'm still skeptical is because there has been no trace of ships or evidence of a sea-faring nation in West Africa. I know a port used on the modern coast of Morocco going out into the Atlantic was used by the Phoenocians. I think to make the claim irrefutable we need something more than the language sadly.
You say the Vikings did it. Did anyone find a Viking boat in the Americas?
During the neolithic period the western Sahara had many rivers. Today what we call the Niger river was divided into two rivers in c.5000 B.C. One was called the Upper Niger and the other the Lower Niger.
The Upper Niger rose in the mountains on the border of Sierra Leone and flowed northeastward into a closed basin in the Sahara; downstream the river there were many wide marshes and several large lakes. The Lower Niger rose in the Hoggar mountains of the Saharan zone. It was fed by streams from the Adrar massif. Winds from the Atlantic ocean took rains into North and West Africa which supported much vegetation in neolithic times.
. In the Tichitt region of Mauritania, an area which is now desert there was a river now dried up which flowed into the Senegal river. Lake Chad was then much larger with a river from the Hoggar called the Tafassasset emptying in it. Rivers also flowed from the Moroccan Atlas mountains into the western Sahara. It would appear that the people who most influenced the history of North and West Africa after 4000 B.C. originally lived in the Fezzan region of Libya.
These Proto-Saharans came to Mexico in papyrus boats. A stone stela from Izapa,Chiapas in southern Mexico show the boats these Proto-Saharans used to sail to America. The voyagers manning these boats probably sailed down TAFASSASSET, to Lake Chad and thence down the Lower Niger River which emptied into the Atlantic. This provided the Mande a river route from the Sahara to the coast . These rivers, long dried up, once emptied into the Atlantic. Once in the Atlantic Ocean to Mexico and Brazil, by the North Equatorial Current which meets the Canaries Current off the Senegambian coast. There are oral traditions and documentary evidence which support the early migration of the Mande people to Mexico, called the Olmecs by the Amerindians. The Olmecs probably called themselves Xi or Shi people.
Friar Diego de Landa, in "Yucatan before and After the Conquest", wrote that "some old men of Yucatan say that they heard from their ancestors that this country was peopled by a certain race who came from the East, whom God delivered by opening for them twelve roads through the sea".
. This oral tradition of the Maya is supported by Stela 5, of Izapa. In Stela No. 5, we view a group of men on a boat riding the waves of an Ocean.At the right hand side of the boat we see a personage under a ceremonial umbrella. This umbrella was a symbol of princely status. Above his head is a jaguar glyph which according to Dr. Alexander von Wuthenau indicates that he was an Olmec.
. This personage has an African hairdo and a writing stylus in his left hand. This Olmec scribe proves that the Olmec had writing which was deciphered by Clyde Ahmad Winters in 1978.(Winters 1979;Wuthenau 1981)
In the center of the boat we find a large tree. This tree has seven branches and twelve roots. The seven branches probably indicates the seven major clans that form ed the Olmec nation. The twelve roots of the tree which extend into the waves of the ocean from the boat, probably signifies the "twelve roads through the sea" mentioned by Friar Diego de Landa. Stela No.5, also illustrates the two principal Olmec cults. On the right hand side of the stela, we see the Jaguar Prince instructing a youth in the mysteries of the Jaguar cult. On the left hand side we see a number of birds.
. Here we also find a priest wearing a conical hat,also instructing a youth in the mysteries of the bird cult. It is clear that Stela No.5 from Izapa not only indicates the tree of life, it speaks to the origin of the Olmec from a nation across the sea. And that the Olmec people came to the New World during twelve migrations, as recorded by Friar de Landa.
In the Popol Vuh, the famous Mayan historian Ixtlixochtl, the Olmecs came to Mexico in "ships of barks"( probably a reference to papyrus boats or dug-out canoes used by the Proto-Saharans) and landed in Potonchan,which they commenced to populate.Mexican traditions claim that these migrates from the east were led by Amoxaque or Bookmen. The term Amoxaque, is similar to the Manding 'a ma n'kye':"he (is) a teacher". These Blacks are frequently seen in Mayan writings as gods or merchants. .
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
King_Scorpion
quote:
When the craniologist said 13.5% of the skeletons were Negroid...I assume he meant all the other skeletons were like the indegenous indians....and like I said, I'm still skeptical of this.
Dr. Wiercinski (1972) claims that the some of the Olmecs were of African origin. He supports this claim with skeletal evidence from several Olmec sites where he found skeletons that were analogous to the West African type black. Wiercinski discovered that 13.5 percent of the skeletons from Tlatilco and 4.5 percent of the skeletons from Cerro de las Mesas were Africoid (Rensberger,1988; Wiercinski, 1972; Wiercinski & Jairazbhoy 1975).
Diehl and Coe (1995, 12) of Harvard University have made it clear that until a skeleton of an African is found on an Olmec site he will not accept the art evidence that the were Africans among the Olmecs. This is rather surprising because Constance Irwin and Dr. Wiercinski (1972) have both reported that skeletal remains of Africans have been found in Mexico. Constance Irwin, in Fair Gods and Stone Faces, says that anthropologist see "distinct signs of Negroid ancestry in many a New World skull...."
Dr. Wiercinski (1972) claims that some of the Olmecs were of African origin. He supports this claim with skeletal evidence from several Olmec sites where he found skeletons that were analogous to the West African type black. Many Olmec skulls show cranial deformations (Pailles, 1980), yet Wiercinski (1972b) was able to determine the ethnic origins of the Olmecs. Marquez (1956, 179-80) made it clear that a common trait of the African skulls found in Mexico include marked prognathousness ,prominent cheek bones are also mentioned. Fronto-occipital deformation among the Olmec is not surprising because cranial deformations was common among the Mande speaking people until fairly recently (Desplanges, 1906).
Many African skeletons have been found in Mexico. Carlo Marquez (1956, pp.179-180) claimed that these skeletons indicated marked pronathousness and prominent cheek bones.
Wiercinski found African skeletons at the Olmec sites of Monte Alban, Cerro de las Mesas and Tlatilco. Morley, Brainerd and Sharer (1989) said that Monte Alban was a colonial Olmec center (p.12).
Diehl and Coe (1996) admitted that the inspiration of Olmec Horizon A, common to San Lorenzo's iniitial phase has been found at Tlatilco. Moreover, the pottery from this site is engraved with Olmec signs.
According to Wiercinski (1972b) Africans represented more than 13.5 percent of the skeletal remains found at Tlatilco and 4.5 percent of the Cerro remains (see Table 2). Wiercinski (1972b) studied a total of 125 crania from Tlatilco and Cerro.
There were 38 males and 62 female crania in the study from Tlatilco and 18 males and 7 females from Cerro. Whereas 36 percent of the skeletal remains were of males, 64 percent were women (Wiercinski, 1972b).
To determine the racial heritage of the ancient Olmecs, Dr. Wiercinski (1972b) used classic diagnostic traits determined by craniometric and cranioscopic methods. These measurements were then compared to a series of three crania sets from Poland, Mongolia and Uganda to represent the three racial categories of mankind.
In Table 1, we have the racial composition of the Olmec skulls. The only European type recorded in this table is the Alpine group which represents only 1.9 percent of the crania from Tlatilco. Table 1.Olmec Races
. The other alleged "white" crania from Wiercinski's typology of Olmec crania, represent the Dongolan (19.2 percent), Armenoid (7.7 percent), Armenoid-Bushman (3.9 percent) and Anatolian (3.9 percent). The Dongolan, Anatolian and Armenoid terms are euphemisms for the so-called "Brown Race" "Dynastic Race", "Hamitic Race",and etc., which racist Europeans claimed were the founders of civilization in Africa.
Table 2: Racial Composition:
. Poe (1997), Keita (1993,1996), Carlson and Gerven (1979)and MacGaffey (1970) have made it clear that these people were Africans or Negroes with so-called 'caucasian features' resulting from genetic drift and microevolution (Keita, 1996; Poe, 1997). This would mean that the racial composition of 26.9 percent of the crania found at Tlatilco and 9.1 percent of crania from Cerro de las Mesas were of African origin.
In Table 2, we record the racial composition of the Olmec according to the Wiercinski (1972b) study. The races recorded in this table are based on the Polish Comparative-Morphological School (PCMS). The PCMS terms are misleading. As mentioned earlier the Dongolan , Armenoid, and Equatorial groups refer to African people with varying facial features which are all Blacks. This is obvious when we look at the iconographic and sculptural evidence used by Wiercinski (1972b) to support his conclusions.
Wiercinski (1972b) compared the physiognomy of the Olmecs to corresponding examples of Olmec sculptures and bas-reliefs on the stelas. For example, Wiercinski (1972b, p.160) makes it clear that the clossal Olmec heads represent the Dongolan type. It is interesting to note that the emperical frequencies of the Dongolan type at Tlatilco is .231, this was more than twice as high as Wiercinski's theorectical figure of .101, for the presence of Dongolans at Tlatilco.
The other possible African type found at Tlatilco and Cerro were the Laponoid group. The Laponoid group represents the Austroloid-Melanesian type of (Negro) Pacific Islander, not the Mongolian type. If we add together the following percent of the Olmecs represented in Table 2, by the Laponoid (21.2%), Equatorial (13.5), and Armenoid (18.3) groups we can assume that at least 53 percent of the Olmecs at Tlatilco were Africans or Blacks. Using the same figures recorded in Table 2 for Cerro,we observe that 40.8 percent of these Olmecs would have been classified as Black if they lived in contemporary America.
Rossum (1996) has criticied the work of Wiercinski because he found that not only blacks, but whites were also present in ancient America. To support this view he (1) claims that Wiercinski was wrong because he found that Negro/Black people lived in Shang China, and 2) that he compared ancient skeletons to modern Old World people.
First, it was not surprising that Wiercinski found affinities between African and ancient Chinese populations, because everyone knows that many Negro/African /Oceanic skeletons (referred to as Loponoid by the Polish school) have been found in ancient China see: Kwang-chih Chang The Archaeology of ancient China (1976,1977, p.76,1987, pp.64,68). These Blacks were spread throughout Kwangsi, Kwantung, Szechwan, Yunnan and Pearl River delta.
Skeletons from Liu-Chiang and Dawenkou, early Neolithic sites found in China, were also Negro. Moreover, the Dawenkou skeletons show skull deformation and extraction of teeth customs, analogous to customs among Blacks in Polynesia and Africa.
This makes it clear that we can not ignore the evidence. I have tried to keep up with the literature in this field over the past 30 years and I would appreciate someone reproducing on this forum citations of the articles which have conclusively disconfirmed the skeletal evidence of Wiercinski.
The fact remains African skeletons were found in Mesoamerica. This archaeological evidence supports the view that the Olmec were predominately African when we examine the anthropological language used to describe the Olmec skeletons analyzed by Wiercinski. See: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/Skeletal.htm
References
Carlson,D. and Van Gerven,D.P. (1979). Diffussion, biological determinism and bioculdtural adaptation in the Nubian corridor,American Anthropologist, 81, 561-580.
Desplagnes, M. (1906). Deux nouveau cranes humains de cites lacustres. L'Anthropologie, 17, 134-137.
Diehl, R. A., & Coe, M.D. (1995). "Olmec archaeology". In In Jill Guthrie (Ed.), Ritual and Rulership, (pp.11-25). The Art Museum: Princeton University Press.
Irwin,C.Fair Gods and Stone Faces.
Keita,S.O.Y. (1993). Studies and comments on ancient Egyptian biological relationships, History in Africa, 20, 129-131.
Keita,S.O.Y.& Kittles,R.A. (1997). The persistence of racial thinking and the myth of racial divergence, American Anthropologist, 99 (3), 534-544.
MacGaffey,W.(1970). Comcepts of race in Northeast Africa. In J.D. Fage and R.A. Oliver, Papers in African Prehistory (pp.99-115), Camridge: Cambridge University Press.
Marquez,C.(1956). Estudios arqueologicas y ethnograficas. Mexico.
Rensberger, B. ( September, 1988). Black kings of ancient America", Science Digest, 74-77 and 122.
Underhill,P.A.,Jin,L., Zemans,R., Oefner,J and Cavalli-Sforza,L.L.(1996, January). A pre-Columbian Y chromosome-specific transition and its implications for human evolutionary history, Proceedings of the National Academy of Science USA,93, 196-200.
Von Wuthenau, Alexander. (1980). Unexplained Faces in Ancient America, 2nd Edition, Mexico 1980.
Wiercinski, A.(1969). Affinidades raciales de algunas poblaiones antiquas de Mexico, Anales de INAH, 7a epoca, tomo II, 123-143.
Wiercinski,A. (1972). Inter-and Intrapopulational Racial Differentiation of Tlatilco, Cerro de Las Mesas, Teothuacan, Monte Alban and Yucatan Maya, XXXlX Congreso Intern. de Americanistas, Lima 1970 ,Vol.1, 231-252.
Wiercinski,A. (1972b). An anthropological study on the origin of "Olmecs", Swiatowit ,33, 143-174.
Wiercinski, A. & Jairazbhoy, R.A. (1975) "Comment", The New Diffusionist,5 (18),5.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I hardly think that one sculpture from Cote d'Ivoire (hypothetically dating back 7000 years which incidently pre-dates the supposed "Mande" exode from the Fezzan to the Hodh) of a style not even remotely like that of Middle America 3000 years ago, can reasonably be assumed as evidence, less lone proof, of Mande origin or influence on Olmec sculpture.
Nor does it satisfy the locus (1200 BCE - 200 CE Mauritania/Mali) of my request, which is the time and place of earliest attested Mande civilization in West Africa.
Dr Winters, you always make a point of no civilizaton in the forest zone, where Cote d'Ivoire lies, before the Common Era, basing yourself on the work of the MacIntoshes. Your reasoning is that without agriculture there was not a quantitatively significant population in that zone.
This is why you say Mande cultural beginnings are not indigenous to West Africa but the central east Sahara toward Libya's south.
Now you're accepting that people (presumably Mande?) far south of Tichitt, and much further southwest of Fezzan, had the leisure time 7000 years ago to take up monolithic sculpture, interesting indeed.
Also, no documents cited describing specified African works resembling the ceramics, or jade art pieces representing humans as do the Xi, nor anything at all about a ball game fitting the specifics of my request.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: It is very difficult to produce picture of artifacts discovered in the Sahara of mande manufacture because they are not published. But from the literature we know that the people around the time the Olmecs were making artifacts in a green stone similar to jade.
Recently, archaeologist in Ivory Coast have discovered stone heads three feet tall they indicate that West Africans had the ability to scuplt stone heads.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Can anyone produce Mande art from Mauritania/Mali of this same time period, 1200 BCE - 200 CE, that's of the same worksmanship and representative style resembling either the Colosal Cabezos, ceramic, or jade art pieces of humans of the Xi era? Did the pre CE Mande play ball?
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
Winters
quote:You say the Vikings did it. Did anyone find a Viking boat in the Americas?
I can do you one better...there is a Vikings settlement that has been protected by the UNESCO World Heritage Site since 1978 and is a National Historic Site (since 1977). The Vikings used a sailing "technique" called Island Hopping. Anyway, the settlement is called L'Anse aux Meadows, and it's in Canada (Newfoundland to be exact). This was done over 1,000 years ago by a Viking explorer called Erik the Red.
I'm currently finishing up Black Spark, White Fire and it's a very informative book...which is why I keep talking about it! What I found even more shocking was that Poe mentioned how a man named Robert Marx found a submerged Roman ship off the coast of Brazil! "Marx found Roman amphorae, encrusted with centuries of barnacles and other marine growth, littering the sea bottom in Brazil's Bay of Guanabara in 1982. Classicists have idenified the jars as third-century Roman amphorae from the ancient port of Zilis on Morocco's Atlantic coast." I also seem to remember him saying something about a Roman helmet being found at some Indian site...but I can't seem to find it.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The authors of the article accompanying the head said that they dated the head to 2000 years ago, not 7000 years ago.
Takruri
quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hardly think that one sculpture from Cote d'Ivoire (hypothetically dating back 7000 years which incidently pre-dates the supposed "Mande" exode from the Fezzan to the Hodh) of a style not even remotely like that of Middle America 3000 years ago, can reasonably be assumed as evidence, less lone proof, of Mande origin or influence on Olmec sculpture.
Nor does it satisfy the locus (1200 BCE - 200 CE Mauritania/Mali) of my request, which is the time and place of earliest attested Mande civilization in West Africa.
Dr Winters, you always make a point of no civilizaton in the forest zone, where Cote d'Ivoire lies, before the Common Era, basing yourself on the work of the MacIntoshes. Your reasoning is that without agriculture there was not a quantitatively significant population in that zone.
This is why you say Mande cultural beginnings are not indigenous to West Africa but the central east Sahara toward Libya's south.
Now you're accepting that people (presumably Mande?) far south of Tichitt, and much further southwest of Fezzan, had the leisure time 7000 years ago to take up monolithic sculpture, interesting indeed.
Also, no documents cited describing specified African works resembling the ceramics, or jade art pieces representing humans as do the Xi, nor anything at all about a ball game fitting the specifics of my request.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Takruri
quote:
I hardly think that one sculpture from Cote d'Ivoire (hypothetically dating back 7000 years which incidently pre-dates the supposed "Mande" exode from the Fezzan to the Hodh) of a style not even remotely like that of Middle America 3000 years ago, can reasonably be assumed as evidence, less lone proof, of Mande origin or influence on Olmec sculpture.
Nor does it satisfy the locus (1200 BCE - 200 CE Mauritania/Mali) of my request, which is the time and place of earliest attested Mande civilization in West Africa.
Dr Winters, you always make a point of no civilizaton in the forest zone, where Cote d'Ivoire lies, before the Common Era, basing yourself on the work of the MacIntoshes. Your reasoning is that without agriculture there was not a quantitatively significant population in that zone.
This is why you say Mande cultural beginnings are not indigenous to West Africa but the central east Sahara toward Libya's south.
The giant head from West Africa is presented to show that West Africans were making giant heads around the time the Olmec arrived in Mexico.
The principle evidence for the Olmec being Mande speaking people is their writing, and religion as illustrated in Olmec art. The fact that they left inscriptions in Mande and later influenced all the major Mexican Indian groups, especially Mayan and Mixe make it clear that these people had a tremendous influence on the raise of civilization in Mexico before the Atlantic slave trade.
I wish I could place the Proto-Olmec in West Africa along the Niger, but this is not supported by the archaeological evidence.
The traditional view of the dispersal of the Proto-Mande would place their original home in the woodland savanna zone of West Africa, in the area of the Niger Basin (Ehret and Posnansky 1982:242). Bimson (1980) has proposed that the Mande migration waves originated from the Inland Niger Delta around 2000 BC.
This is a most attractive theory but it does not conform to the archaeological data collected Over the past decade in Africa that illustrates that until the second millennium BC the Inland Niger Delta was sparsely populated (McIntosh & McIntosh 1981 ,1986).
The original homeland of the Proto-Mande was probably the Saharan highlands (Winters 1986b). The archaeological data suggest that the Proto-Mande migrated first north (westward), and then southward to their present centers of habitation (Winters 1981b:81).
By the late stone age (LAS) black Africans were well established in the Sahara (Winters 1985b). These blacks were members of the Saharo-Sudanese tradition (Camps 1974). These blacks lived in the highlands. The early Fezzanese and Sudanese were sedentary pastoralist
Ceramics spread from the Central and Eastern Sahara into North Africa. These ceramics were of Sudanese inspiration and date back to the 7th millennium BC This pottery was used from the Ennedi to Hoggar. The makers of this pottery were from the Sudan (Andah 1981).
In the Sahelian zone there was a short wet phase during the Holocene (c. 7500-4400 BC), which led to the formation of large lakes and marshes in Mauritania, the Niger massifs and Chad. The Inland Niger Delta was unoccupied. In other parts of the Niger area the wet phase existed in the eight/seventh and fourth/third millennia BC (McIntosh & McIntosh 1986:417).
There were few habitable sites in West Africa during the Holocene wet phase. McIntosh and McIntosh (1986) have illustrated that the only human occupation of the Sahara during this period were the Saharan massifs along wadis. By the 8th millennium BC Saharan-Sudanese pottery was used in the Air (Roset 1983). Ceramics of this style have also been found at sites in the Hoggar (McIntosh & McIntosh 1983b:230). Dotted wavy-line pottery has also been discovered in the Libyan Sahara (Barich 1985).
Much of the evidence relating to this pastoral way of life comes from the discovery of cattle bones at excavated sites in the Sahara dated between 7000-2000 BC, and the rock drawings of cattle (McIntosh &McIntosh 1981). In the western Sahara, sites such as Erg In-Sakane region, and the Taoudenni basin of northern Mali, attest to cattle husbandry between 6000 and 5000 BP. The ovicaprid husbandry on the other hand began in this area between 5000 to 3000 BP. Cattle pastoral people began to settle Dar Tichitt and Karkarichinkat between 5000 to 3500 BP.
The first Mande settlements were probably located at Dar Tichitt. Since these areas were heavily settled when a new arid phase began in the Sahara, I believe the Proto-Mande/Olmec people were forced to search for new homes. Sailing down the ancient Niger they probably entered the Atlantic Ocean and made their way to America where they began the Olmec Civilization.
I discuss the expansion of the Mande at the following site:
According to the author of the site above, it were Zulus who spread civilization around the globe from Greece to China and from India to the Americas!
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Dr. Winters
By all appearances you cannot positively answer my questions about relatedness of 1200 BCE - 200 CE Mande of the Hodh (Mauritania/Mali) to 1200 BCE - 200 CE Xi and others of Middle America.
That many people all over the world were into ceramics doesn't make their individual particular ceramic works resemble each other in manufacture or design.
Likewise that two populations worked green stone doesn't imply they both made representations of the human figure in a style of art that was similar.
Ballgames were, I believe, integral to the religious, political, and military idealogical psyche as well as sports and athletics of the 13th cent. BCE - 3rd cent. CE Xi. The same cannot be said of the 13th cent. BCE - 3rd cent. CE Mande.
The matter presented in your reply to these issues I raised are off the mark and do not at all address my request, and we have yet to get to how Mande living in the Hodh at that time knew there was a Middle America and why they'd want to go there and their naval acumen and need to send priests, artists, scribes, militarists, farmers, and other assorted deliberate colonist to a destination where they introduced a material civilization unknown to the Hodh or the Fezzan.
An essay on various elements of African prehistory is not what I'm calling for.
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Winter's claims are as valid as those made in this website:
According to the author of the site above, it were Zulus who spread civilization around the globe from Greece to China and from India to the Americas!
You being the same person who once said East Africans are all of the Elongated type? Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Takruri
quote:
The matter presented in your reply to these issues I raised are off the mark and do not at all address my request, and we have yet to get to how Mande living in the Hodh at that time knew there was a Middle America and why they'd want to go there and their naval acumen and need to send priests, artists, scribes, militarists, farmers, and other assorted deliberate colonist to a destination where they introduced a material civilization unknown to the Hodh or the Fezzan.
An essay on various elements of African prehistory is not what I'm calling for.
An essay on Africen prehistory is exactly what you're asking for. It is only through a study of African prehistory that you can explain the Olmec and their civilization. Before the Olmec there was no interest in green stones. So why were these people interested in green stone: simple, they had worked green stone into artifacts in Africa.
The Olmec introduced a calendar system and writing to Mexico. Why didn't the Mexicans have their own calendar system before the Olmec? The answer is simple the Olmec took the writing system and calendar they used in Africa to Mexico, and the Mexicans learned these elements of culture from the Mande/Africans.
In Mexico before the Olmec the people were buried in holes and pits in the ground. When the Olmecs came to Mexico they dug a pit and built a pyramidal structure over it. Why? Because the Olmec had learned in Africa that you could place a mound of earth or stone over the deceased person and protect his/her grave from desecration.
If we did not know African prehistory we would not know that Mande speaking people early developed writing; built pyramidal structures over their loved-ones and important personages; and that green stone was a popular mineral used by Mande/African people to make artifacts.
You admit there is no exact representation of cultural elements among related populations. The Sudanese and Egyptians shared many similar cultural values but their expression of these values were different. For example, the Sudanese liked women that were thick, while the Egyptians prefered women that were thin.
Both the ancient Egyptians and ancient Sudanese early made red-and-black pottery, over time they made pottery of different colors..
Your questions are off mark. You act as though ancient Africans were less than human, timid and afraid of adventure.
This is false, we know for a fact the Egyptians traveled to Punt, throughout the Middle East and elsewhere in search of adventure and wealth. Yet you imply from your post that Africans could not have the same motivations as Europeans, who left Europe to settle the entire world.
Your ideas about Africans are racist an imply that Africans are cowards, too timid to venture from their homes. This is ludicris, because we know that Africans expanded from Nubia, to the far ends of Africa, Asia and the Americas.
I see the expansion of the Proto-Saharans as the result of two factors one the increasing aridity in the Sahara and a metal rush. They came to America probably for the same reason that Europeans came here: for adventure, wealth and new homes. And just like the Europeans, they took with them their religion, scribes, militarists, farmers and others. To read your post one would believe that the ancient Mande were not humans. Humans have a need for adventure and dare to go places that interest them, just for the point of going.
The fact remains, 1) the religion of the Olmecs is exactly the same as the Mande people; 2) the Olmec and Mande used the smae writing system; 3) the skeletal type of the Olmec was analogous to the West African skeletal types; and 4) the cultural vocabulary and languages of the Maya, Mixe and Aztec show a Mande substratum and loan words. These facts support the view these people were of African, Mande origin.
.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
No. This is what I'm asking for and you've again avoided.
For the time period of 1200 BCE - 200 CE produce Mande art from Mauritania/Mali that's of the same worksmanship and representative style resembling either Xi * Colosal Cabezos, * ceramic art pieces depicting humans, * jade art pieces depicting humans. Also Xi style ballgames among 1200 BCE - 200 CE Mande in Mauritania/Mali.
I don't need pictures just citations from archaeologists.
Nothing save fulfilling the requirements satisfies the requirements.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: An essay on Africen prehistory is exactly what you're asking for.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Back off!! I'm the guy what posted Mansa Bubakari II's sense of wonder and personal wanderlust for his 2200 vessel excursion across the Atlantic.
However this Malinke emperor knew nothing of any transAtlantic Mande colonization 2000 years previous to his.
I also posted about the mtepe vessels of the pre-Swahili coast and Indian Ocean voyage.
------------------------
Your ad hominem attack is uncalled for, highly insulting and covers your ass no better than the emperor's new clothes, and is poor excuse for failing to comply to my request with mirrors and smoke instead of simply saying the answers will require more research as the existing literature does not speak to it, or whatever.
At least that's what I'd've expected from the mouth of a scholar involved in an academic discussion, not these name calling and grandstanding tactics of a losing debater's last ditch efforts to gain his audience's sympathy after not being able to command their intellect.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Your questions are off mark. You act as though ancient Africans were less than human, timid and afraid of adventure.
... you imply from your post that Africans could not have the same motivations as Europeans, who left Europe to settle the entire world.
Your ideas about Africans are racist an imply that Africans are cowards, too timid to venture from their homes. To read your post one would believe that the ancient Mande were not humans.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Takruri
quote:
No. This is what I'm asking for and you've again avoided.
For the time period of 1200 BCE - 200 CE produce Mande art from Mauritania/Mali that's of the same worksmanship and representative style resembling either Xi * Colosal Cabezos, * ceramic art pieces depicting humans, * jade art pieces depicting humans. Also Xi style ballgames among 1200 BCE - 200 CE Mande in Mauritania/Mali.
I don't need pictures just citations from archaeologists.
Nothing save fulfilling the requirements satisfies the requirements.
Sorry to tell you this but we will have to deal with citations from archaeologists because I can not publish, what has not been published. When the archaeologists publish the greenstone artifacts found in Saharan Africa and etc., ES will be the first to see them.
I deciphered the Olmec writing back in 1979. The evidence I had of Olmec writing was the LaVenta Celt and several other celts. Because these were the incriptions archaeologists had published.
But in 1996, the University of Princeton published The Olmec World: Ritual and Rulership. This book provided me with tons of inscriptions I could decipher. As a result, I could confidently write a grammar of the Olmec language.
This shows how a researcher must wait until the evidence is published to fully illustrate their research. This having been said the fact that the Olmec have left inscriptions written in the Mande languages, visualized their religion through the art associated with Olmec rituals and continued cultural practices associated with their Mande ancestors I can confidently say the Olmec were Mande speaking people. This evidence is confirmed further by the influence of the Mande languages on the Mexican languages.
Your requirements to prove the African origin of Olmecs based on archaeological material which has not been published is without merit. If you disagree with my evidence, present counter evidence proving that the writing of the Olmec is not written in the Mande languages. Present evidence there were no African skeletons found in Mexico. Show evidence that the Mexicans prior to the Olmec built pyramidial structures. If you don't have any evidence to falsify my work, please refrain from participating in this discussion.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Takruri
quote: Back off!! I'm the guy what posted Mansa Bubakari II's sense of wonder and personal wanderlust for his 2200 vessel excursion across the Atlantic.
However this Malinke emperor knew nothing of any transAtlantic Mande colonization 2000 years previous to his.
I also posted about the mtepe vessels of the pre-Swahili coast and Indian Ocean voyage.
------------------------
You are full of it. You act like a Psychic.
You claim in your post that Emperor Abubakari knew nothing about the Mande/Olmec connection. How can you make this claim you were not living back in Mali in the 1300's, so what evidence do you have to make this claim.
Yea, you mentioned the Abubakari voyage to America, but why don't you tell us more. Where did they probably land when they arrived in the Americas? What evidence do we have of the migration from South America to the American southwest? Where are the Mande inscriptions related to there expansion across the Americas? What influences have they left in Mexico, and throughout North America? You discuss none of this only the fact that Europeans report the word guanin.
You don't know these things because you don't do original research you just criticize the research of other people.
Yea, you mention the mtepe, but why not discuss the Ethiopian colonies in Ecuador and Peru? Why don't you talk about the influence of the Axumites on the Moche religion and architecture?
Oh yea, the European has not alraedy discussed these facts so until they are approved by some European researcher you will remain in the shadows talking about something that is safe, because a European said it.
I don't wait for Europeans to guide my research. I find the facts analyze them and then push the research further. You on the other hand repeat what Europeans agree on. Be bold . Do some original research.
Takruri
quote: Your ad hominem attack is uncalled for, highly insulting and covers your ass no better than the emperor's new clothes, and is poor excuse for failing to comply to my request with mirrors and smoke instead of simply saying the answers will require more research as the existing literature does not speak to it, or whatever.
At least that's what I'd've expected from the mouth of a scholar involved in an academic discussion, not these name calling and grandstanding tactics of a losing debater's last ditch efforts to gain his audience's sympathy after not being able to command their intellect.
I have not lost any debate. We have not debated anything relative to the evidence of Mande origin of Olmec.
You are requesting archaeological evidence that is not published. Yet you,do not discuss the evidence we already have relating to the Olmec-Mande connection. This is what scholars do they discuss evidence, not use empty words to create false propositions.
For example, you have not explained how Mande inscriptions and African skeletons arrived in Mexico if they were not carried there by Mande speaking people. You have not explained why the Olmec practiced the Mande religion, if they were not of Mande origin.
I was not attacking you personally. If someone limits the possibility and ability of a people due their race they are racist. Here you are living in America, which is ruled by Europeans who traveled thounsands of miles to take this country over; yet you can't believe that Africans can be motivated to travel thousands of miles to found a colony in a new land due to a sense of adventure and trade, that is a racist statement.
You should be ashamed of yourself. Stop limiting the ability of Africans to act in a human fashion. Stop waiting for Europeans to discovery the history of African and Black people, do the research yourself.
.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: You being the same person who once said East Africans are all of the Elongated type?
When did I say this??..
LOL Don't get mad and start making false accusations because of what I just posted!
More to come.
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: You being the same person who once said East Africans are all of the Elongated type?
When did I say this??..
LOL Don't get mad and start making false accusations because of what I just posted!
More to come.
It was a while back...and I can't remember the thread.
EDIT: Oh yea...it was when I made a thread about who could play Akenaton and I put a picture of Djimon Honsou up and you said that would be wrong because East Africans are of the elongated type and Djimon is not East African.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Temper tantrums do not fulfill my request.
This is what I'm asking for and you've yet again avoided it.
For the time period of 1200 BCE - 200 CE produce Mande art from Mauritania/Mali that's of the same worksmanship and representative style resembling either Xi * Colosal Cabezos, * ceramic art pieces depicting humans, * jade art pieces depicting humans. Also Xi style ballgames among 1200 BCE - 200 CE Mande in Mauritania/Mali.
Nothing save fulfilling the requirements satisfies the requirements.
I'm not attacking you but a person is ignorant when you ask them about plastic art figures and ball playing and they keep harping about language.
Even a moron knows that apples ain't alligators.
There is no protoSoninke human figurine plastic art in ceramic or greenstone or monolithic heads, nor were protoSoninke playing ballgames all things characteristic of the Xi.
If there are such things in 1200BCE-200CE Mauritania/Mali please remit the names of those you rely on for such evidence so anyone can contact them and replicate what you say.
Those are the specifics I'm dealing with here. Other specifics such as language, calendar, religion, nautics, etc., is outside the scope of these particular precise specifics and can be handled once they are addressed.
Stop the hating, name calling, and insinuation and start comporting yourself like the scholar I once respected instead of falling back on race, something all can plainly see that you not I have introduced into the discussion to cover your nakedness.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Takruri
quote:
Those are the specifics I'm dealing with here. Other specifics such as language, calendar, religion, nautics, etc., is outside the scope of these particular precise specifics and can be handled once they are addressed.
Stop the hating, name calling, and insinuation and start comporting yourself like the scholar I once respected instead of falling back on race, something all can plainly see that you not I have introduced into the discussion to cover your nakedness.
You keep trying to change the topic of this thread. That topic is the Mande influence on Olmec civilization and Religion. If you want to discuss some other issues start your own thread.
I support Mande speaking people forming the Olmec speaking people , based on the Olmec religion, language, writing and cultural expressions. These are the issues germane to this thread. When are you going to discuss these issue?
Deal with the specific evidences discussed in this thread.
The fact that you fail to discuss these issues indicate that you have nothing to really offer this thread.
.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
This is the height of ignorance comparing 15th century CE expansion, the nautical component of which was due to adapting certain Islamic maritime technologies, to 14th century pre-bronze oceanic nautics.
A lot can happen in 3,000 years.
Your obsession with race and constant comparisons to Europeans reveals your bent and objective.
Africana can be discussed, learnt about, and taught without constantly introducing Europe and Europeans. Doing so robs Africans of their proactive agency. You reduce Africans to reactive objects of Europeans.
Now if you can, prove yourself not to be a race obsessed boor by sticking to the point, answering to the questions, keeping to their order, in a manner befitting academic discussion not the antics of debate (stop your hate).
For the time period of 1200 BCE - 200 CE produce Mande art from Mauritania/Mali that's of the same worksmanship and representative style resembling either Xi * Colosal Cabezos, * ceramic art pieces depicting humans, * jade art pieces depicting humans. Also Xi style ballgames among 1200 BCE - 200 CE Mande in Mauritania/Mali.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: I was not attacking you personally. If someone limits the possibility and ability of a people due their race they are racist. Here you are living in America, which is ruled by Europeans who traveled thounsands of miles to take this country over; yet you can't believe that Africans can be motivated to travel thousands of miles to found a colony in a new land due to a sense of adventure and trade, that is a racist statement.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I never posted to this thread, which I was willing to ignore as I prefer to mostly deal in continental Africana, until out the blue YOU Clyde Winters extrapolated a set of questions I proposed, who knows how long ago, here in your post of 22 May, 2006 01:41 PM after this thread lay dormant for over 5 weeks.
Now after dragging me into it by cutting and pasting me from who knows where you want to tell me
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: You keep trying to change the topic of this thread. That topic is the Mande influence on Olmec civilization and Religion. If you want to discuss some other issues start your own thread.
Theatre of the Absurd.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Takruri
quote: This is the height of ignorance comparing 15th century CE expansion, the nautical component of which was due to adapting certain Islamic maritime technologies, to 14th century pre-bronze oceanic nautics.
What are you talking about. I have not discussed any 15th century nautica in this post.
The only nautica I discussed in this thread was an ancient Saharan boat and a boat from Izapa Mexico, both dating BC, that show the same Mande signs on them.
You have to be tripping. Why would I discuss 15th Century nautica when we're discussing the Olmecs.
.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
LOL The only one 'trippin' is YOU Clyde and all over your pseudo-scholarship.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
You brought up the expansion of Europeans to the Americas. That was done nautically in the 15th century. Thus YOU introduced 15th century nautica into this "discussion."
You know, I've been one of the few people here to address you respectfully, not calling you inept, almost always recognizing your PhD accomplishment, admitting my debt to you as an early influence in my own development, and trying to comment to and discuss things with you on a level devoid of ridicule or recrimination, keeping it academic, investigative and analytic.
Yet you speak to me with contumely and degradation, telling me I'm tripping, calling me a racist, preaching to me I should be ashamed, labelling me anything but a child of God, just generally belittling me anyway you can.
YOU went way back there, dug up my questions, and transplanted them here and now into this thread, then falsely accused me of taking this thread offtopic by defending my position, a sleeping dog you wouldn't leave laying.
I find this behavior reprehensible and cowardly.
Also, if you can't counter me in a respectful tone then expect to receive the same street level disrespectful ridiculing tone you've lowered yourself to dish out to me. The choice is yours.
- mapenzi mwalimu -
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Takruri
quote: This is the height of ignorance comparing 15th century CE expansion, the nautical component of which was due to adapting certain Islamic maritime technologies, to 14th century pre-bronze oceanic nautics.
What are you talking about. I have not discussed any 15th century nautica in this post.
The only nautica I discussed in this thread was an ancient Saharan boat and a boat from Izapa Mexico, both dating BC, that show the same Mande signs on them.
You have to be tripping. Why would I discuss 15th Century nautica when we're discussing the Olmecs.
Posted by Hotep2u (Member # 9820) on :
Greetings:
alTakruri wrote:
quote: For the time period of 1200 BCE - 200 CE produce Mande art from Mauritania/Mali that's of the same worksmanship and representative style resembling either Xi * Colosal Cabezos, * ceramic art pieces depicting humans, * jade art pieces depicting humans. Also Xi style ballgames among 1200 BCE - 200 CE Mande in Mauritania/Mali.
I cannot show Huge Stone Heads, dating in that area or era. I cannot show ceramic art pieces depicting Humans, though I will say such art work did exist on the Afrikan continent at that time.
Though with Jadeite here is the problem that you and any one else looking for such a mineral in Afrika will find this problem.
quote: Jadeite is a pyroxene mineral with composition NaAlSi2O6. Jadeite is found only in metamorphic rocks that form under high pressure and relatively low temperature conditions, usually along transverse faults. It has a Mohs hardness of about 6.5 to 7.0 depending on the mineral impurities present. Associated minerals include: glaucophane, lawsonite, muscovite, aragonite, serpentine, and quartz. Jadeite's color commonly ranges from white through pale apple green to deep jade green but can also be blue-green (like the famous and recently rediscovered "Olmec Blue" jade), lavender, and a multitude of other rare colors. Color is largely affected by the presence of trace elements such as chromium and iron. It's translucence can be anywhere from entirely solid through opaque to almost clear. Variations in color and translucence are often found even within a single specimen. Currently, the best known sources of gem quality jadeite are California, Myanmar, New Zealand and more recently Guatemala; however, mineral jadeite is also found in California, British Columbia, Alaska, Turkestan, and a few other places.
Jadeite is one of the minerals recognized as the gemstone jade . The other is the green amphibole, nephrite. Typically, the most highly valued colors of jadeite are the most intensely green, translucent varieties, though traditionally white has been considered the most valuable of the jades by the Chinese, known for their carefully crafted jade pieces. Currently, the most highly valued variety of jadeite is known as "Imperial Green" jade and is characterized by an emerald green color with a high level of translucence. Other colors, like "Olmec Blue" jade, which is characterized by its deep blue-green, translucent hue with white flecking, are also becoming more highly valued because of its unique beauty and historical use by the Mesoamerican Olmec; however, this variety was only recently rediscovered and is only being minimally exploited by native Guatemalans. It is thus difficult to obtain and as yet too rare and little known to have attained great value as a gemstone.
OLMEC IS NOT THE CORRECT NAME FOR THESE PEOPLE. OLMEC IS ANOTHER RUSE
According to this book The Maya replaced the HUIXTOTIN OF OLMAN "The Sea People of the Rubberland" How did the Maya replace the Huixtotin of Olman that's another story.
Much of the culture that was native to the "Sea People of the Rubberland" IS NOT KNOWN. The Maya were known for the playing of the Rubber ball though we don't know for sure if the "Sea People of the Rubberland" played the same game. What is known is that the "Sea People of the Rubberland" cultivated rubber trees and utilized rubber so to claim that the "Sea People of the Rubberland" also played this ball game is speculation.
Hotep
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Takruri
quote:
Yet you speak to me with contumely and degradation, telling me I'm tripping, calling me a racist, preaching to me I should be ashamed, labelling me anything but a child of God, just generally belittling me anyway you can.
YOU went way back there, dug up my questions, and transplanted them here and now into this thread, then falsely accused me of taking this thread offtopic by defending my position, a sleeping dog you wouldn't leave laying.
I find this behavior reprehensible and cowardly.
Also, if you can't counter me in a respectful tone then expect to receive the same street level disrespectful ridiculing tone you've lowered yourself to dish out to me. The choice is yours.
You have not presented any evidence to counter. I have presented evidence of African skeletons, writing and etc. Evidence which have have not disputed. You even wanted to see an artifact created around the time the Olmec made the giant heads, which I also supplied.
What evidence have you presented disputing anything I have discussed relating to the Mande influence on the Olmec.
I have not used any street language here. I call it the way I see it. If you believe Africans were incapable of traveling from Africa to other parts of the world, when history makes it clear that ships from Meluhha (Punt-Kush) and Egypt could sail to Mesopotamia; and Axumites traveled throughout the Indian Ocean, like the Swahili did later--the statement is racist.
Yes I said you should be ashamed. You claim you have learned from me. You also said that you know about the Swahili voyages yet you said: Takruri
quote:
The matter presented in your reply to these issues I raised are off the mark and do not at all address my request, and we have yet to get to how Mande living in the Hodh at that time knew there was a Middle America and why they'd want to go there and their naval acumen and need to send priests, artists, scribes, militarists, farmers, and other assorted deliberate colonist to a destination where they introduced a material civilization unknown to the Hodh or the Fezzan.
This is a racist statement. You don't know what was taking place in the Fezzan and Sahara except what European researchers publish, because they are the only ones excavating African archaeological sites.
One of the things we do know is that the Saharans were great sailors. We also know they constructed many boats. Hundreds of boats have been found in the Sahara indicating that sailing was popular in the area. For you to claim that Africans did not want adventure and sail great distances in search of trade, is a racist statement. It shows that you don't respect the ability of Africans to travel the seas as far as they wish.
You should be ashamed of making this statement because the Europeans now live on continents far away from Europe, yet you imply that Africans can not make this great accomplishment when the African rock art depicting boats make it clear Africans had a great deal of nautical knowledge.
One of the boats I already published on this thread had the same X within a box, sign like the symbol on Izapa (Mexican) boats
If I was using street language I would be refering to you with four (4) letter words. This I have not done. I don't feel I have to go there because this is what you want me to do.
An Mwalimu Makubwa doesn't have to spend his time doing this.
.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Hotep2u
Thank you for a reasonable and enlightening reply.
Many sources attribute ballplaying to the Olmec and I included a pic of a ceramic figurine of a ball player that you can see if you follow the link I gave earlier. Some suppose the helmets of the Cabesos Colosal is what assures they were rulers, prime ballplayers.
Anyway, I'm not pushing a dogma and there's plenty of room for diverging opinions based on documentary evidence such as you've provided.
We have to be precise in our enquiries. We know Africans made human figurines but we're examining a particular place in Africa, the Tagant/Hodh of Mauritania/Mali.
Also its not so much about the material they used to make the figurines, though they were done in cermaic and jade, but the artistic style demarking them from others' human representations. Again, please follow the link for the examples I gave though I'm sure Diehl's book has excellent repros in it.
Their style looks original, created by themselves. If anything it resembles East Asian more than West African art.
Can you tell me more about the proper indigenous name of the "Olmec"? I've used Xi but it seems Huixtotin is more appropriate, right?
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: LOL The only one 'trippin' is YOU Clyde and all over your pseudo-scholarship.
Why are you trolling Djehuti? You're starting to act like Horemheb now. If you don't have anything to add to the discussion why post just to attack people?
Clyde: The picture of the sub-saharan boat isn't showing up.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
You're sick with racial obsession to see anything here saying blacks are incapable of anything.
quote:The matter presented in your reply to these issues I raised are off the mark and do not at all address my request, and we have yet to get to how Mande living in the Hodh at that time knew there was a Middle America and why they'd want to go there and their naval acumen and need to send priests, artists, scribes, militarists, farmers, and other assorted deliberate colonist to a destination where they introduced a material civilization unknown to the Hodh or the Fezzan.
Other people jump on you calling you a pseudoscholar, a nut case, and worse. So what do you do? You take it out on me when I take you seriously and attempt to engage in a discussion with you.
Far from makubwa, with each reply youre making yourself kidogo.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Takruri
quote: Other people jump on you calling you a pseudoscholar, a nut case, and worse. So what do you do? You take it out on me when I take you seriously and attempt to engage in a discussion with you.
Far from makubwa, with each reply youre making yourself kidogo.
Makubwa I am, kidogo you. At least I am able to conduct original research instead of parroting what ever I read.
It is your replies that betry you as kidogo. Granted, one can jifunza tangu utoto, learn from a child, but your behavior is kitoto, you can not counter my evidence of African history of navigation and ship building, Mande writing, African skeletons, and Mande religion so you start asking about something that is not even being discussed in this thread. This is child like behavior.
You called me a coward. You are the coward. Name one publication you have ever written. Until you have the nerve to publish, you don't have the right to call anyone a coward. At least I have the nerve to conduct research and publish it.
The fact that my research is published shows that my research is supported by the editors who publish my work.
People on this site can call me anything they which, but if they don't present evidence to counter my evidence they are speaking empty words, words which betray their jealousy and fear of the truth.
.
Posted by Hotep2u (Member # 9820) on :
Greetings:
alTakruri wrote:
quote: Their style looks original, created by themselves. If anything it resembles East Asian more than West African art.
Can you tell me more about the proper indigenous name of the "Olmec"? I've used Xi but it seems Huixtotin is more appropriate, right?
According to Diehl the information about the name can be found in the Codex Mendoza, where the Nahuatl speaking Aztec, referred to the people who inhabited the area which we today associate with being the historical land inhabited by the "Olmecs" were known in the Codex Mendoza as OLMECA-HUIXTOTIN. Litterally meaning "PEOPLE OF THE SALTWATER LIVING IN THE RUBBERLAND" obviously the SALTWATER means Sea.
The word Olman means Rubberland, so when we say Olmecs we are litterally saying Rubber people.
I would use a modern definition of the name to be "Sea People of the Rubberland" based off the name written in the Codex Mendoza.
The book also states that the "Sea People of the Rubberland" were replaced "conquered" by the Maya later the Maya were destroyed, "conquered" by the Aztecs who relayed this history to the Spanish.
So the Olmeca-Huixtotin Civilization did not continue after the arrival of the Maya.
The book is quite bias against Afrocentric claims though it does give factually established information towards the Olmeca-Huixtotin.
Some stand out points are that some of the Head Sculptures used initially used the techinique of incorporating the GOLDEN RATIO then later periods failed to do this, such observations were seen to note that the Civilization did come to a end at some late point approximately 400 B.C. to 200 A.D.
So the Mayan Civilization began at the end of the Olmeca-Huixtotin Civilization.
The author goes as far to make note that their are other Sculptures and artifacts that have not been researched, though archaeologist are aware where these unresearched artificats are located.
Hotep
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
The author goes as far to make note that their are other Sculptures and artifacts that have not been researched, though archaeologist are aware where these unresearched artificats are located.
Why aren't they researching it?
Posted by Hotep2u (Member # 9820) on :
Greetings:
quote: Makubwa I am, kidogo you. At least I am able to conduct original research instead of parroting what ever I read.
It is your replies that betry you as kidogo. Granted, one can jifunza tangu utoto, learn from a child, but your behavior is kitoto, you can not counter my evidence of African history of navigation and ship building, Mande writing, African skeletons, and Mande religion so you start asking about something that is not even being discussed in this thread. This is child like behavior.
You called me a coward. You are the coward. Name one publication you have ever written. Until you have the nerve to publish, you don't have the right to call anyone a coward. At least I have the nerve to conduct research and publish it.
The fact that my research is published shows that my research is supported by the editors who publish my work.
People on this site can call me anything they which, but if they don't present evidence to counter my evidence they are speaking empty words, words which betray their jealousy and fear of the truth.
Please cut out the arguing folks, lets move on.
Clyde Winters Wrote:
quote: Yea, you mention the mtepe, but why not discuss the Ethiopian colonies in Ecuador and Peru? Why don't you talk about the influence of the Axumites on the Moche religion and architecture?
I would like to know if you have any proof or factual evidence to support this claim because IT IS VERY INTERESTING TO ME. Their is some historical text to support this claim though I would like to know if you have any established evidence Eurocentric or Afrocentric it doesn't matter because a fact is a fact.
Hotep
Posted by Serpent Wizdom (Member # 7652) on :
Thanks Mr. Winters for the enlightening information about the Olmec civilization in the Americas. I also love the way you hold it down in the face of criticism.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: Why are you trolling Djehuti? You're starting to act like Horemheb now. If you don't have anything to add to the discussion why post just to attack people?
Ahem. Excuse me?? I already gave some input near the beginning of this thread. Why are you lying saying that I said all East Africans were elongated or something?! LOL
If you want more input, I will give it to you... Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
China and the Zulus
Chinese headdresses, straw hats, and Brides It is said that the beginning is half of everything, and I was inspired to write my first book, The Other Santorini, by a gold headdress from Troy (ca. 2,500 B.C.) found by H. Schliemann, which was similar to those of Chinese Emperors. Years later, watching the documentary “Shaka Zulu,” I saw that he and female members of his family wore similar headdresses. This made me think there was possibly a relationship between the Zulus and China. The royal Zulu ladies also wore straw hats that were identical to Chinese and ancient Greek ones.
“Zulu” means “heaven.” Like the Chinese Emperor, Shaka (1787 – 1829) was called “Son of Heaven,” and he prayed for rain like the Chinese Emperor and King Minos of Crete; “by custom, he was required to make rain.” Shaka would wash his hands before meals in a special earthen basin, and the Chinese Emperor in a lotus flower-shaped bowl, like the golden one of the Kypselids of Corinth (presently in the Boston Museum of Fine Arts). A Zulu bride’s face would be covered like a Chinese bride’s, and a modern bride’s, today. This common custom alone would be enough to correlate the Zulus and the Chinese.
Today, the traditional color worn by a bride in China is red (the color of joy), but originally was probably white, if we think of the Zulu bride who was decorated with white oxtails around the arm and the ankle. Zulu kings had many wives, like Chinese emperors, with the exception of Shaka, who did not marry because he was against marriage and having children himself. All the same, he had a harem of 1,200 women, like the hundreds of concubines of Chinese emperors.
They did not practice castration (there were no eunuchs), so Shaka chose the ugliest men to be guards of his harem; but in the eyes of the women who were starved for sex they looked like Apollo! Despite the strict prohibition (the penalty was death) many made love to the guards.
Zulu men shaved their heads like the Chinese,except when they were in mourning – like the people of Crete today who grow beards for the rest of their lives to mourn a loss. It was prohibited during mourning to wear ornaments, to wash the body, or to shave, and the penalty for disobeying this was also death.
The Zulus and the Old and New Testaments I was astounded when I saw that Shaka, when he was to become King, first rinsed his body with water, then lathered with a paste of fat, smeared his entire body with a red paste, and finally, after application of native butter, his body was resplendent “with a beautiful ruddy, silky gloss.” (A Zulu bride was also anointed with sesame oil.) My mind went immediately to King Solomon and to Jesus Christ in the Old and New Testaments:
And Zadok the priest took a horn of oil out of the tabernacle and anointed Solomon (1 Kings 1, 39). And the Lord told Elijah the prophet: Go to Damascusand anoint Harael to be King of Syria. And Jehu the son of Ninshi shalt anoint to be King over Israel (1 Kings 19, 15-16).
Messiah means “the anointed one” in Hebrew, as does the word Christ in Greek, and in the Greek Orthodox Church the priest puts oil on the heads of babies when they are baptized.
Christ said to Simon: My head with oil thou didst not anoint (Luke 7, 46).
Priests and prophets were anointed as well as kings. “As regards the king, it seems to have been a custom only among Jews, the anointment being a way of showing that a Jewish leader had received God’s personal help.” Shaka was called “King of Kings,” as were Jesus Christ and Genghis Khan. On the day of Shaka’s coronation as King of the Zulus, the spokesman of the Great King Dingiswayo asked “is there anyone who does not agree? If so, let him speak now or hereafter be silent.” The same question is posed by a minister in Christian weddings: “ if there be anyone who opposes this union, let him speak now, or forever hold his peace.”
The Oath The oath was practiced by the ancient Greeks, and the Hippocratic oath, sworn to by doctors even today, is world renowned (“I swear by Apollo Physician and Aesclepius and Hygeia and Panacea…”). In the court of Areopagus, litigants as well as their witnesses would take an oath. “I will not disgrace the sacred weapons” was the beginning of the oath sworn by an Athenian youth when receiving a spear and shield. I also remember “the oath which swore to our father Abraham” from Luke 1, 73; and that Christ told his disciples “do not swear at all” because, it seems, during his time people abused their oaths, and as witnesses frequently did not speak the truth. “And Herod swore unto her, whatsoever thou shalt ask of me, I will give it thee….” (Mark 6, 29). “But he began to curse and to swear saying…” (Mark 14, 71).
The Chinese today swear “by heaven” or “by their father and mother,” and in modern Greek there are expressions like “I swear by my life,” “by what I hold most sacred,” and “by the bones of my dead father.” I was surprised to see that the strongest Zulu affirmative oath was also to swear “by the bones of my father.”
Zulus and Greek Idols with folded arms The folded arms of Early Bronze Age (ca. 2,500 B.C.) Greek idols (naked marble statues) are world-renowned. This position of respect was also known in China, but because nudity was completely prohibited very early, the folded arms were no longer discernible under their large sleeves, with the result that Greek art has monopolized this characteristic human attitude. Native Americans would also fold their arms in this way. Monkeys sit with their arms folded, but I do not know if they imitate man, or if it was the other way around. Primitive man was very close to nature, and would observe bird and animal behavior. (Shaka told the story of how to trap a monkey: place a fruit or something shiny into a gourd with a narrow neck, and the monkey would reach in to get it. Once with hand in the gourd, greedy as he is, the monkey would not let go of the object, and so couldn’t take his hand out, and thus would be captured.)
During my research I often could not believe my eyes at the similarities I would find, and this is the case with Shaka’s personal guards. In his presence they always stood with their arms folded on their stomachs. Once, a contemporary king of Shaka’s – sentenced to death by his adversary – waited to be executed (according to the description by E. A. Ritter) “with his arms folded” (a sign of respect to the supreme power).
Snakes and trophies Zulus shared the belief with the Chinese and the Greeks that ancestral spirits take corporal form in the shape of non-venomous snakes. The Greeks and Chinese believed they descended from Kekrops and Fuxi, who were half-man, half-snake.
The staff of the redoubtable witchSitagi,a Shamaness, had a snake coiled around it, like the snakes of the Caduces of Hermes and on Aesculapius’ staff, or the pastoral staff of Greek Orthodox Bishops.
And the Lord said unto Moses, what is that in thine hand? And he said a rod. And the Lord said cast it on the ground and he casted it on the ground and it became a serpent.” (Exodus 4, 2-3).
Sitagi’s staff was crowned by the skull of an enemy king decapitated by her dreadful son. Behind her hutshe kept a “museum” of skulls, trophies of killed kings and princes. And inside the Erechtheion on the Acropolis spoils and trophies were kept, reminding Athenians of their victories and forever humiliating their enemies.
At first the Zulus were a small clan, Shaka disposed of only 350 warriors. But after six years their number grew to 40,000, and today the descendants of Shaka number 9 million, forming the largest ethnic group in South Africa. As the orator Isocrates wrote, “we consider a Greek anyone who shares our culture,” Shaka proclaimed “anyone who joins the Zulu army becomes a Zulu.”
Zulu and Greek shields and the Pyrrhic Dance The Zulu shield had an oval shape, which shape has survived only with the Pyrrhic dance in Greek art. The shield was long, to cover the warrior “from the mouth to the toes,” and Shaka had a boy carry his behind him to the battlefield, as Athenian citizens had slaves carry their shields. A Spartan preferred to die rather than drop his shield and flee; a Zulu would cover his back with it in retreat, or just drop it and run away.
In the Pyrrhic dance the shield was small and light; such a “toy shield” was apparently held by a bride of Shaka’s father for the dance after their wedding.
On his first appearance as king in 1816, Shaka was holding an oval ceremonial ox-hide shield four feet long and snow-white in color, tempered by a single black spot. “The shields of cadets (16 –19 years old) were wholly black, and those of juniors had a little white. The more experienced were given shields with increasing white markings and, finally, the veterans carried pure white ones with, at the most, a tiny spot of black.” The smiths of Shaka were busy, providing uniform-colored shields for the different regiments.
As a herd boy of sixteen Shaka acquired eight hunting spears and a small shield of black cow-hide (16 inches long, and 12 inches wide). The regiment of virgins (created by Shaka) was equipped with small shields. In an initiation ceremony with a burning fire, a Zulu boy, naked up to this point (puberty), would be given a front apron to hang from his waist (to hide an accidental erection) and later a second one to cover his buttocks. In that ceremony he would also be given a spear and shield, exactly like the Athenian youth.
In Taiwan today the little boys of an aboriginal tribe dance a traditional dance half naked, wearing only short trousers and holding wooden shields. And in inner Mongolia child-wrestlers fight half naked. Also a drum would sound to start a dance, as well as to start battle.
The Greek Pyrrhic dance was danced by heroes – a hero was considered someone who excelled in battle, in the hunting of wild animals, and in singing and dancing. In Greek the word pyrrhic is related to fire, and it is interesting that a fire would burn as part of Zulu initiation ceremonies. It is probable that after the ceremony the boy-heroes would dance a war-dance for the first time, holding shields.
According to one version, the goddess Athena invented and was the first to dance the Pyrrhic dance, to celebrate the victory of the gods over the giants who represented the dark and evil forces of nature. The Greek dancers were naked, like the Zulu boys, and held small oval shields horizontally, as Zulu dancers hold them even today (it seems holding it horizontally kept the shield from obstructing the dancer’s legs).
The Pyrrhic dance was a war dance for celebrating victories, and in Greece the dancers were divided into two groups: defenders and attackers. Their quick movements were aimed at not giving the enemy a “firm target.”
The Zulus were also divided into two groups, one moving from right to left and the other from left to right, like the movement of a snake. A “snake dance” is danced today by the Puyuma aborigines of Taiwan to celebrate the New Year. As they dance in a circle half of them go from left to right, and the other half seems to go in the opposite direction.
The Native American Hopis also dance a snake dance.
The short skirts and arm-rings of the Zulus are similar to those of ballet dancers today, whose skirts and wrist-bands are made of tulle. This implies that dancing in general began as a war dance. The Zulu warriors’ skirts were made of ox and gray-blue monkey tails and strips of leather, while those of the maidens were made of fig-tree leaves, bringing to mind Eve’s fig-leaf. Daughters of headmen and of wealthy families had skirts of multi-colored expensive beads which they traded with the Arabs, often for cattle.
Shaka and the Elders It is known that in certain parts of Africa it was customary to kill, cook, and eat the old people in order to inherit their wisdom and knowledge. E. A Ritter is very accurate, and his information about the Zulus most valuable, but I think he did not pay enough attention to the fact that Shaka, although born a general and very intelligent (he has been compared to Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and Napoleon), also consulted a great deal with the Elders of his clan, and learned everything from them. The Native Americans also governed themselves with Elders in this way.
Shaka expressed the idea that he and King George IV of England should establish a committee of Elders to work out a way for Black and White people to live together in harmony and peace.
Once, when seven-eighths of the sun was eclipsed and the Zulus feared they might perish, Shaka told them “I have heard the old people say it has happened before.”
Moreover, when Shaka abolished the wearing of sandals by his soldiers in order to give them superior speed, he had probably not thought of this himself, but had heard it from the old people. (The Greeks also fought barefoot, to be able to run faster, as sandals impeded the movements of a warrior.)
Zulu ox-hide sandals had four straps; but originally they wore the “sayonara”-type sandal (what we call thongs or “flip-flops” – with a strap between the first big and second toes, attached to either side), worn today on beaches everywhere, and in Japan. In ancient times they were common in Egypt; and in the Acropolis Museum the only one of the 16 Athenian Kore (statue of girl) whose lower legs are still preserved wears this the kind of sandal.
Shaka and Miltiades Most likely Shaka did not invent all his strategies for winning battles himself, but learned them from the old people’s stories. Once, to win a battle in which the enemy was much more numerous than his army, he applied the same strategy Athenian general Miltiades had used against the Persians at Marathon. Miltiades strengthened the wings of his troops and left the center weaker with only a few ranks (the two wings had eight rows of men each, and the center only three). Thus when the wings came together, the Persians who had penetrated the center were encircled. Shaka placed twenty men in the center in four groups of five, and in each wing two groups of fifteen of his swiftest and best soldiers. When the two wings met, all the enemy that had advanced into the center were taken prisoner.
Was Miltiades’ Marathon plan original, or had it been learned from stories from the past? Miltiades had spent many years in Thrace, and had served with the Persians against the Skyths. Perhaps he had learned this and other strategies then.
Military secrets were traditionally handed down from father to son, like the secrets of masons. The Propylaea of the Acropolis is similar to the main entrance of the Forbidden City in Tiananmen Square in Peking, and the number of gates is the same: five (an odd number, as the central gate on each was bigger). In the end they may have both copied a common earlier pattern, and although the Propylaea predate the Forbidden City, it is very likely that the architect Mnesicles did not himself devise the plan for the Propylaea, but rather copied it from a scroll.
The Spartan King Leonidas and Shaka When Leonidas of Sparta was told to surrender at Thermopylae and to send Xerxes his soldiers’ weapons, he gave the famous answer: “Come and get them.” When Shaka’s father died, an enemy King reminded Shaka that, as his father’s heir, he was obliged to send him the three selected Zulu maidens that his father had promised. Shaka’s answer was: “Come and get them”! Had Shaka learned this expression from the Elders? Had this been in use in other instances in the past as a response to arrogant demands?
Leonidas intended to defend the pass of Thermopylae with 300 Spartans, and thus save Greece from the Persians. Is it coincidence that God said to Gideon “You will defeat the Medianites with 300 people”? (Judges 7, 7).
In 1828 when facing his executioners, Shaka said “You too, my children?” echoing Julius Caesar’s words to his adopted son Brutus, thousands of years later. Did such sayings get passed on, from mouth to mouth, generation to generation?
Zulu, Chinese, and Greek Festivals When the Persian fleet left Samos for Attica (490 B.C.) the Athenians, aware of the eminent danger, sent a messenger to Sparta to request help. However, the new moon was only nine days old, and Spartan law did not allow their soldiers to leave Spartan territory until after the full moon. A full moon occurs on the fourteenth night after a new moon.
At that time the Spartans were celebrating the Karneia, a festival of war-like character (held every four years) in honor of Apollo. This lasted nine days during the full moon of August, and during this festival naked youths (gymnopaidiai) helped the priests in their sacrifice of the animals.
When the full moon was over, 2,000 Spartans (accompanied by 2,000 “mat-boys” (who carried the sleeping mats, etc.) marched hurriedly to Athens, but when they arrived three days later the battle had already taken place (September 12, 490 B.C.), and the glory of the victory belonged to the Athenians alone.
Here we get an idea of how the phases of the moon influenced the lives of the Greeks.
The Chinese Lunar Calendar was also based on the moon. Every year the Chinese “New Year Festival,” or “Spring Festival” is on a different day (between January 20th and February 21st); it falls on the day after the first full moon following the Winter Solstice (December 21st). Similar to the Chinese “New Year/Spring Festival,” the Greek Orthodox Easter also does not take place on a fixed date, as it too follows the Lunar Calendar. Every year it falls on the first Sunday following the first full moon after March 21st (the Spring Equinox).
Catholic Easter is usually on a different day because the Catholic Church adopted the Solar, or Gregorian Calendar (the two Easters fall on the same day once every five years).
The Moslems (Ramazan and Bairam) also hold holiday celebrations in relation to the Lunar Calendar. In Egypt a similar festival was celebrated around March 21st, and Jewish Passover also takes place on the first full moon after March 21st.
Every Jewish family had to sacrifice a lamb, which they then roasted on a spit. Whatever was left after they ate had to be burned, because it was not allowed for that meat to be eaten the following day.
I was most surprised to see that, according to Ritter’s book, “all Zulu festivals were held only at the full of the moon. “Three days before the full moon [italics mine] the biggest black bull was chased for an hour round and round. Then the whole regiment hurled itself on the animal with bare hands. Some of them were hurt but the rest of them got a grip on the bull, whenever they could and threw it to the ground. Then raising the horns as levers they twisted its neck till the spinal cord was broken…. The bull was then roasted and bits of the meat were thrown into the air, and each warrior had to catch a piece and eat it. Whatever remained of the bull was completely incinerated and the ashes buried.”
The Easter lamb is similarly roasted on a spit in Greece.
To become King, a Zulu prince had to kill a bull with his bare hands. He was then recognized as a hero and could lead the victory dance. Anyone who killed a dangerous snake (such as a black mamba), an elephant, a lion, or a leopard was also regarded as a hero. The head of a snake or a leopard or an enemy would be crushed with heavy clubs (like that of Hercules).
To hold festivals during a full moon was very reasonable, because nights weren’t dark when illuminated by the moonlight. It seems the August full moon is the brightest and most beautiful, and this is when the Greeks chose to hold their major festival: the games in Olympia. The Olympic Games took place every 5th year (after 4 complete years) at the first, or more often the second full moon after the Summer Solstice (June 21st) between the end of July and the beginning of September, and lasted five days. Every two years the festival at Isthmia was also held during the full moon at the end of August or beginning of September.
The Great Panathenaea, held every four years (not in the same year as the Olympic festival, but with a difference of two years), lasted nine days, and it seems this Athenian festival was also held during a full moon (end of July, beginning of September), like the Karneia in Sparta. It is probable that all Greek festivals were held during full moons.
The Zulu first fruit festival (little Umkosi) was held every year; until then no one was permitted to eat any of the agricultural produce. This festival was held during the full moon near our Christmas, and the Great Umkosi took place during the next full moon. In Greece the first ripe fruits and wheat of the year (aparchae) were brought in and dedicated to the gods. Only then were the people allowed to eat themselves!
The Zulus used to tell time by the moon: “Shaka returned on the third day of the new moon.” “At the new moon after the little Umkosi the regiment began to hoe Shaka’s garden.” Shaka’s soldiers once complained that “they had been through a woman-famine for many moons.” “Shaka was told of a Great White civilization which had established its advance posts many moons’ journey to the South...”. In a Western [film] a Native American refers to a three-moon journey” (one moon = 28 days).
Military tactics and turquoise-blue Like the Spartans, Zulus were full-time soldiers. And like the Spartans, each had a young boy with him to carry provisions, a mat, and the heavier items. Shaka trained his soldiers hard, himself.
“The Royal Salute was shouted. The Zulu regiment gave one thunderous stamp with the right foot to show their approval…”.
“…perfecting the system of rapid transmission of orders from the commander to the ranks, the pause for one deep breath and then the simultaneous right foot crash which was the signal for executing the order.”
“The rhythmic stamping of 10,000 feet made the Earth shake – an ominous display of power…”.
Today, militaries all over the world stamp their right foot when saluting, as do the Evzons (the ex-royal Greek guard, in their traditional costume which includes leather shoes with a tassel that shakes when they stamp).
Many Shaka warriors had turquoise-blue circles painted on their chests, sharing a universal belief that this color had the power to avert evil. It would protect Chinese children, whose partially shaved heads were painted blue, as were the teenagers on the Santorini frescoes. The blue scarab protected the Pharaohs, the turquoise stone the Native American, and the blue paint on the faces of Breton and Scotch warriors. While the blue “eye” (shape and color) always meant protection, everywhere, and Kings are referred to as “blue-blooded.”
Doors and windows are painted turquoise-blue to shut out evil, and entire houses have blue walls or blue bands around them, from China and India and the Arab countries, to France (Camarque), Spain (Mancha), and Mexico (“senefas”).
The Zulus made extensive use of beads (like the Native Americans) – multicolored, but mainly blue – for their headbands, belts, necklaces, and chestbands (one or two bands, in the form of an X, or many narrow ones, all with symbolic patterns).
As sentries they held a spear (with both hands, one above the other along the center of the body) as the Chinese held a sword.
Tatoos and painted geometric marks on the face, body, and houses All over Africa faces and bodies were tattooed or painted with patterns symbolizing snakes (stripes to indicate the boa, scales for the viper, diamonds for the rattle-snake, etc.), offering protection to the individual. From the diamond (rhombus) a triangle was derived when cut in two vertically, and a zigzag when cut in two horizontally. “Metops and triglyphs” symbolized the coral snake and the Elaphe scalaris (ladder snake), from China, the Amazon, the Americas, Egypt, and Bronze and Iron Age Greece, and by the Australian Aborigines, showing what a strong memory original man had.
On the huts in Zulu villages, and inside on wooden columns, painted symbolic patterns were interwoven, like on nomad tents in Tibet, on the teepees of Native Americans, and on early representations of houses in Greece. Snakes were coiled in relief on Zulu columns, like on Chinese dragon columns.
The Zulus lived in a circle of beehive-shaped straw huts with a semicircular doorway. In the center of the hut there was a somewhat oval, slightly sunken hearth (like in the palaces of Mycenai and Pylos), in which there was always a fire burning.
Inside the men sat on the right, and the women and children on the left, like it is done in the Greek Orthodox Church, in some places, even today.
The circle of huts had a fence around them, and in the center there was a smaller fenced circle in which the cattle were kept.
Buffalohorns and grain barns One of the most impressive Zulu head-dresses worn by generals and officials and made, I believe, of a thin leaf of brass, reminded me of buffalo horns because of its shape.
Buffalo hunting was most dangerous, but also most rewarding; killing a buffalo made one a hero. In many parts of the world hunters would do a victory dance afterwards, wearing the horns on their heads. In southwestern China it is believed by the Miao even today that buffalo horns bring luck and have the power to ward off evil. In Guizhou young girls and brides wear horns made of silver on their heads, and these people also use horns to decorate the prows of their ships. Hunters in China and Tibet hang them outside their doors, and Zulu villages had thousands mounted on poles. They were also mounted on poles by Aborigines in Australia, as well as by the Ifugaos of Luson island in the Philippines.
Necklaces out of buffalo teeth were made by the Zulus and the Native Americans.
The fact that Zulus wore head-dresses made to look like buffalo horns as they did in Giuzhou betrays their country of origin, and the specific area where this custom originated.
Zulu barns strengthen this supposition. The film “Shaka Zulu” brought my attention to small structures for storing grain that were on wooden stilts on the outskirts of the villages. They reminded me very much of a structure I had seen in a photo in one of the hundreds of Chinese periodicals I had glanced through, but I couldn’t remember what the structure was – was it also a barn for grain? When I found the photo in China Today (July 1995), I couldn’t believe it! Yes, it was a barn on stilts, made of bamboo and used for storing grain and other valuables: “a common structure on the outskirts of villages of the Yao people in the provinces of Hunan, Giuzhou, and Yunnan.”There is no doubt it was the same type of barn, because of its unusual shape, and it’s almost identical use. The photo was once again from the Guizhou area, further proof of which part of China the Zulus originally came from.
Hunting of leopards, lions, and elephants The leopard was hunted because it was extremely dangerous to the Zulus’ domestic animals, such as cattle and sheep, and because of its beautiful fur. They used the fur as a coat to be worn over the shoulders, to sit on, and as a mattress at night. “All leopard skins were the prerequisite of Royalty.” Even a strip of leopard skin was enough to indicate royal descent. The patterns on leopard skin are similar to those of certain snakes; crowns and headbands were also made of otter skin (water-snake), which had been stuffed.
It is again a most surprising similarity that aboriginal tribes in Taiwan today wear the same kind of crown made of leopard and otter skins.
The elephant was hunted because it destroyed crops, and because of its tusks (both male and female African elephants have tusks), for making necklaces, earrings, and bracelets. Shaka possessed two ceremonial axes with ivory handles, like Chinese Imperial axes.
On either side of a skull on poles, the Zulus would hang tusks to make it look like an elephant’s head. This look could provide an explanation for Apollo’s “long hair” in the Museum of Delphi, and the “bands” on either side of the faces of Chinese gods and emperors.
The largest and most invincible animal was the elephant. The Chinese and the Native Americans had the custom of naming people after birds and animals (bear, horse, lion, eagle). Similarly, Shaka was called “the big elephant,” and his mother Nandi “the big female elephant.”
The Zulus would hang tails of ox and of monkeys around the neck, waist, arms, and legs. But it seems to me they also hung hair from lions’ manes – it was blond in color, soft, and shiny like “angel’s hair,” and like the hair of the “Golden Fleece.”
Like in China, a Zulu woman could not ascend the throne (in Hawaii there was a queen), and Shaka’s father’s sister once said to him “you are the king and not me, only because of this thing you have between your legs.”
The Zulu dance and the ballet Dancing in general originally began as a war-dance, to celebrate a victory. A drum would sound to begin the dance (like the beginning of a battle). After the victory of the gods over the giants, Athena led the dance, as she was the only goddess who had taken part in the Gigantomachia. This dance was called the “Pyrrhic” dance, performed, probably, next to a fire. The dancers held small oval shields (probably wooden, to be light) horizontally, like the Zulu dancers today, and as Shaka’s father’s bride held an oval toy shield for the dance after their wedding. It was customary among the Zulus for only unmarried girls and young men to dance, alternating in separate groups.
After the Jews left Egypt and succeeded in crossing the Red Sea, “Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances” (Exodus, 15, 20)
“On the Acropolis, north of the Erechtheion was a courtyard for ritual dances.”
Dancers’ tutus in the Ballet today are like those of the Zulus, and the tulle rings worn around the arm near the elbow are reminiscent of the ox-tails (and later straw rings, in places where oxen were scarce). In the Don Quixote ballet today, Dulcinea holds a fan while she dances, as they do in aborigine dances in Taiwan.
Head-wreaths and the Greek Orthodox wedding The Zulu head wreath was made from parts of trees, and was regarded with respect, as a badge of honor and dignity. Usually it distinguished a married and respected man, but Shaka wore one from the age of thirteen, indicating his noble birth. There were white and black rings on it, and the rings of leopard skin. The wreath symbolized the snake and meant protection.
Wreaths connected by a ribbon are worn today by bride and groom in a Greek Orthodox Wedding.
Across the chest and over the shoulder, the King would wear a band of leopard skin or of beads with symbolic patterns, as on the belts of the Pharaohs and the Native Americans.
Besides wreaths, the Zulus also wore small animals on their heads, like the Chinese with the animals of the Zodiac, and the Minoan goddesses. Weasel, mink, and snow-leopard cubs decorated Chinese, Minoan, and Zulu heads.
Common body stances and acts of respect When Shaka was assassinated, one of his generals approached and, before kneeling next to the dead body, took off his feather headdress. The three Wise Men took off their hats next to the infant Christ, and today the Greek Orthodox take their hats off when passing a church. A gentleman is supposed to take his hat off when greeting a lady, and also kiss her hand.
Whenever I saw my godfather as a child (considered the “spiritual father” of a child by the Greek Orthodox), my mother would tell me to kiss his hand. Children kiss the hands of priests in church when they are given the holy bread, and when I saw the film on Shaka, I was most surprised to see that each of the royal Zulu ladies, one by one, kissed the hand of Shaka’s mother.
The Zulus had no chairs, and used to sit on the floor on rocks. They would sit on their knees on the ground next to a superior (this was probably copied from animals). The Chinese, Japanese, Mongolians, Egyptians, Hindu Indians, and Native Americans all sit on their knees. Another position of respect practiced in Mongolia today is that of a soldier next to his officer, with his arms tight alongside the body like on a Greek Kouros. Shaka’s guards and the Greek idols had folded arms to show respect.
The black fur hats of Shaka’s guards are similar to Orthodox Jewish hats, to those of Tibetans, and to the guards of Buckingham Palace in London. It seems to me all kinds of hats originated in Tibet, which is situated very high, has a clean atmosphere, and therefore the sun would beat down on the head very much.
Early man observed that you can see and hear better when seated in a semicircle. This explains the configuration of theaters, of groups of monks in Tibet, of scholars, and of the Native American councils. “The council were seated in a semicircle around Shaka, who was seated on a rock.” And “With the army facing him in a semicircle, Shaka thanked all the warriors for their effort.
Pages used to bring river water in gourds for Shaka’s customary ritual public bath. They held them vertically over their heads and handed them to Shaka with both hands. This is the way of offering things respectfully even today in China, and was also the way in Byzantium. The three Wise Men held their gifts for the new-born Christ with both hands, and a Greek Orthodox priest holds the Holy Communion vessel, covered with red velvet, with both hands.
“A Zulu home was a model of discipline and manners. The dominant rule was that of complete submission to paternal authority. The little boys revering the big boys; the bigger boys the men, and all their parents.”
The Impalement “This was one of the most revolting punishments ever devised by the human imagination.” It was particularly for traitors. The Greeks also had a kind of crucifixion, and if hemlock caused no pain, death in the “barathron,” a deep well in the Acropolis where people were thrown to die of hunger and thirst, was certainly dreadful.
Impalement was the Turks’ preferred method of execution. “A stake was inserted into the victim’s posterior and forced all the way through his body.” Athanasios Diakos, the hero of the Greek revolution against the Turks died this cruel death. This is how we roast the poor Easter lamb today, and how the Zulus roasted a bull killed with their bare hands.
Cronus and Zeus, and Shaka and his baby son In China every day of the month was dedicated to a bird or animal, and the fifth day of the fifth lunar month was dedicated to the owl. Children born on that day would be taken to the forest to die because “when grown, would kill their father.” (Like Oedipus, which myth was also known in Egypt.) “The owl is the only bird whose children devour the parents.” (Marcel Granet, “The Chinese Civilization.”)
Cronus devoured his children the moment they were born because an oracle had said he would be killed by one of them. Cronus’ wife tricked him and thus spared the baby Zeus, who finally did kill Cronus later.
Shaka did not marry, and did not want children. When “by mistake” a harem girl would give birth to a son, Shaka would kill the baby “because a bull has perfect place until the young bulls – his progeny – begin to dispute his supremacy.” Had Shaka heard such stories as Oedipus from the Elders?
The heir of a king would be the first son from his first wife, unless otherwise designated. A dying king would give his finger ring to his heir; one Zulu king in captivity, “suspecting the worst,” solemnly removed his brass arm-ring, and gave it to his fourteen year-old son.
Burial customs Similarities are also found in burial customs. The Zulus, like the Chinese and the Greeks, would bury their dead kings with their servants and personal guards; their necks would be twisted to cause immediate death. The king would be carried in his coffin by people who wore no ornaments. (When my father died, the first thing my mother did was to take off her gold and pearl earrings, a wedding gift from her mother-in-law that had decorated her ears during the sixty years of her married life.)
The dead body of the king was first wrapped in a black ox-hide, and the face carefully covered and fastened with a cord because dirt was not supposed to fall on it. Still, today, the Greek Orthodox place a [red or white] handkerchief on the face of the dead before lowering the coffin into the grave.
Victims often still alive and moving were thrown into the pit. Achilles sacrificed many Trojans at the funeral of his friend Patroclus.
Feathers on the head The universal practice of decorating the head with feathers also links the Zulus to China, the Amazon, Australia, Egypt, Crete, and the Americas. It seems the feather was given as a prize for heroic acts, and in an aborigine tribe in Taiwan today, the first winner of the traditional foot-race is given three feathers to wear on the head.
“Shaka was so pleased once with our victory that he ordered the whole regiment to don a single red loury feather which is the insignia of honor and victory….”
“The feathers of the red loury with its striking red are the insignia of outstanding bravery given to distinguished warriors.”
“Shaka would at first allow nobody but himself to wear the brilliant scarlet feathers of the red loury (of which he wore twelve bunches); he presently allowed his most important chiefs to wear one bunch and warriors who had distinguished themselves one feather each.”
“A murmur of admiration arose from the whole assemblage as they viewed Shaka in gala uniform. Round his bare head he wore a circle of stuffed otter skin, bearing within its circumference bunches of gorgeous red loury plumes and, erect in front, a high glossy blue feather, two feet in length, of the blue crane.”
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Hotep2U
quote:
I would like to know if you have any proof or factual evidence to support this claim because IT IS VERY INTERESTING TO ME. Their is some historical text to support this claim though I would like to know if you have any established evidence Eurocentric or Afrocentric it doesn't matter because a fact is a fact.
The Chinese records make it clear that Axumites made many long voyages in the Pacific and Indian oceans. These sailors made these voyages in mid-ocean, not coasting near the shore.
There are many correlates between Ethiopia and early Ecuador and Peru. For example, African and South Amerindian weavers used similar looms. In both these areas the weavers used the horizontal loom staked out on the ground, along with the vertical-frame loom with two warp beams. (Rowe 1966) Von Hagen noted that looms"...used by the ancient Peruvians are identical with those of other civilizations with which they had [alledgely] absolutely no contact. A form of backstring loom was used in Egypt, a horizontal loom appears in predynastic Egypt, and the one pictured on the tomb Khnemholep (at Beni Hasan) circa 1900 B.C., is identical with those of the Andean and coastal Peruvians".
The Moche lunar god was called Si. In ancient Axum, the moon god was called Sin. The term Si and Sian for the South American mood god, is probably a corruption of the Axumite term Sin.
I am teaching the first summer term, so this summer I don't have any classes so I will be completing my new book discussing the Axumite, Malian and etc., exploration of the Americas. I plan to publish the book in August at that time I will provide a detailed discussion of this entire experience.
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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Thanks. If I'm reading right Huixtotin is an Aztec name for the people not a name they called themselves.
Can you tell anything about Xi, whether it too is an external name or one from the people themselves?
quote:Originally posted by Hotep2u: Greetings:
alTakruri wrote:
quote: Can you tell me more about the proper indigenous name of the "Olmec"? I've used Xi but it seems Huixtotin is more appropriate, right?
According to Diehl the information about the name can be found in the Codex Mendoza, where the Nahuatl speaking Aztec, referred to the people who inhabited the area which we today associate with being the historical land inhabited by the "Olmecs" were known in the Codex Mendoza as OLMECA-HUIXTOTIN.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I'm beginning to suspect the charlatan has a condition requiring professional help.
He keeps talking about me going off topic when he's the one who cut and pasted my comments from 10 weeks ago into this thread which until then I ignored.
I could return the hate but instead I pity the deranged. I pity the man who eccentricity has made his works a byword among his peers and lashes out at laymen on a forum for laymen whom he chastises for not being professional yet he swims the waters where he feels like the big fish in a little pond.
And meanwhile back in the ocean which is his rightful home, not even his hand trained students of "Africalogy" nay not even the serious Afrocentric scholars have used his "grammar" or "lexicon" (where can they be purchased or what library has them in it's stacks?) to replicate translations of lost languages he claims to have found and thus validate said grammars and lexicons.
When I want to translate R3n Mdw, I pick up texts of lexicon and grammar of Pharaonic Egyptian without their author holding my hand and make a reasonable translation that others using their own lexicon and grammar books can verify or tweak.
But who else over the decades has translated Meroitic or other lost languages using a Winters authored lexicon and grammar?
Yes, best to be a big fish in a little pond, a shark hoping to mystify groupies ...er... guppies who shouldn't know any better than to accept his sediment as sunken treasure.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: ... you start asking about something that is not even being discussed in this thread. This is child like behavior.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Takruri
quote:
Can you tell anything about Xi, whether it too is an external name or one from the people themselves?
The Mayan Indians claimed that the Olmec people were named Xi (Shi). It was the Olmec people who gave the Mayan people writing.
The Mayan people also adopted their writing system and name for writing from the Olmec people . Landa noted that the Yucatec Maya claimed that they got writing from a group of foreigners called Tutul Xiu from Nonoulco (Tozzer, 1941).
The Tutul Xi were probably Manding speaking Olmecs (1) . The term Tutul Xiu, can be translated using Manding as follows: Tutul(2) , "Very good subjects of the Order"; and Xiu(3) , "The Shi (/the race)".This phrase would therefore be interpreted as follows: "The Shis (who) are very good Subjects of the cult-Order".
In the Chilam Balam, of Chumayel, zuiva, is spelled zuyua. This document declares that the "head chiefs" of towns were periodically examined in the language of zuyua.
The language of zuyua was supposed to have been understood by the Mayan elites. Scholars are not sure about the meaning of the mysterious term zuyua. But, it has affinity to Olmec terms.
The actual sound value of /z/ in zuyua is /s/. If we compare zuyua, with Olmec su-yu-a, and zuiva with Olmec su-i-wa we find interesting meanings which suggest that zuyua was probably a secret code taught the Mayan chiefs by the Olmecs who taught them civilization. In Olmec su-yu-a can be translated as the 'Shaper of Life", while su-i-wa means the "Shaper of Good" or "the thing which hurries your welfare".
These translations of su-i-wa and su-yu-a, are interesting because they are associated with leadership, and the role of both secular and religious leaders in the community, make them semantically appropriate terms to interpret zuyua or zuiva. This results from the fact that the Olmec chief or priest is a shaper of the welfare of his people and it was only natural that this specialist probably had to know secret terms and symbols ( Mayan writing ) to manifest the great power(s) surrounding their office.
Notes:
1. This view is supported by the Olmec language. In the Olmec language the term tu, means 'association, law, supporters of the order'. In Olmec the -l is the suffix of augmentative value e.g., faka -ma 'king', faka -ma-la 'Supreme King'; and the -u element was the plural suffix added to names e.g.,Xi 'The Black' , Xiu 'The Blacks'. Thusly, in Manding we can read the terms Xiu Tutul as : "The Xis (Blacks) (belonging to) the association of the supreme supporters of the Order(/Cult).
2. This -l, in Tutu-l, is probably the suffix of augmentation.
3. The -u, element is the plural suffix for the Manding languages.
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Takruri you're the charlatan. You are disrecptful to every one on this forum who fails to accept your ideas.
I am respectful to everyone I converse with. You are upset because you have finally shown how you disrespect the ability of African people by your comments concerning the ability of ancient Africans to explore the ancient world.
You keep bringing up my Ph.D. I was publishing articles on Afrocentric history and deciphering ancient languages long before I earned my PhD. This makes me believe you are envious of this accomplishment, and may fuel your bipolar post which are one minute calm and the next minute flip.
I pity you. You want to influence people, yet you lack the patience to present to the world the proper intellectual behavior to be respected by anyone except your cheerleaders on this forum.
You can redicule my work, but it does not phase me, because at least I have a body of work which will be studied long after I'm dead. All you will be remembered for, especially by people on this forum is as a dilettante, who puts his foot in his mouth and then make rude comments to try and defame people who disagree with you.
Your comment about the ability of ancient Blacks to travel the ancient world, shows me that you are a self-hating Black. Because of your self hate you feel safe when discussing issues supported by the Academie or Europeans generally. You are a sad person. Here you sit on this forum and pretend that you believe Africans have a history, and attack any idea not supported by the Academie.
You are a coward. That's why you hide behind "Europeans" instead of being bold and making a mark on African history. You hate Afrocentrists because they are bold enough to make claims that the status quo may disagree with.
Stop being a coward. I published articles in peer reviewed journals long before I earned my PhD. Instead of attacking me gain some self-esteem by quieting your fears, and write articles instead of making derogatory and rude anonymous comments on this forum.
If you really have something to say worth publishing it will be published. I hope you will do this soon, then you can stop being envious and jealous of me.
I respect everyone on this forum. I respond to them in a respectful manner, never arrogant or abusive like you. But I refuse to be silent when I see a self-hating Black, like you, attack the ability of African people simply so he can be considered a member of the status quo or "a good boy" or "topdog" at EC.
If you disagree with my work please show 1) that there were no West African type skeletons found in Mexico; 2) the Mande language is not a substratum language of Mayan and Mixe;3) that the Olmec did not use a Mande writing system ; and 4) that they did not practice a Mande religion. Right now you are just showing your envy of a man not afraid to challenge the status quo to establish truth.
.
Takruri
quote:
I'm beginning to suspect the charlatan has a condition requiring professional help.
He keeps talking about me going off topic when he's the one who cut and pasted my comments from 10 weeks ago into this thread which until then I ignored.
I could return the hate but instead I pity the deranged. I pity the man who eccentricity has made his works a byword among his peers and lashes out at laymen on a forum for laymen whom he chastises for not being professional yet he swims the waters where he feels like the big fish in a little pond.
And meanwhile back in the ocean which is his rightful home, not even his hand trained students of "Africalogy" nay not even the serious Afrocentric scholars have used his "grammar" or "lexicon" to replicate translations of lost languages he claims to have found and thus validate said grammars and lexicons.
When I want to translate R3n Mdw, I pick up texts of lexicon and grammar of Pharaonic Egyptian without their author holding my hand and make a reasonable translate that others using their own lexicon and grammar books can verify or tweak.
But who else over the decades has translated Meroitic or other lost languages using a Winters authored lexicon and grammar?
Yes, best to be a big fish in a little pond, a shark hoping to mystify groupies ...er... guppies who shouldn't know any better than to accept his sediment as sunken treasure.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Classic schizoid paranoid megalomaniac.
You're full of soup, charlatan, and have failed to distract anyone from the fact that you had no answers for my questions but you think you can turn people against me with personal drivel but
You spreading propaganda over my name trying to bring another life to shame oh man you just a playing your game But then you draw bad card Make wrong move You draw bad card!
"Big" fish inna likka pond. Cyan swim wi im own inna ocean!
You're sick man, seek professional help. And wipe that rabid froth from your mouth.
I was once proud of you and your accomplishments but you changed all that over the last 24 hrs with your maddog attacks on me just because I defended my position which YOU dug up from 10 weeks ago and posted in this thread. You're like a bully beating up on little kids. Here on a laymen's forum berating laymen for not being professionals, a grownup playing in the sandbox.
I peeped your hole card, bud. You were afraid to comeback on your detractors but because I've conducted myself humbly with you you took me for a weakling you could attack with impunity, taking out on me all bottled up inside you from those who truly dissed you but you were too sissied of them to take them on.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Takruri
quote:
You're sick man, seek professional help. And wipe that rabid froth from your mouth.
I was once proud of you and your accomplishments but you changed all that over the last 24 hrs with your maddog attacks on me just because I defended my position which YOU dug up from 10 weeks ago and posted in this thread. You're like a bully beating up on little kids. Here on a laymen's forum berating laymen for not being professionals, a grownup playing in the sandbox.
You have not defended any position at all. The only thing you have done on this form is project contempt for the truth and make abusive conversation.
Don't play that laymen mess here. As I said before my research on the Olmec and decipherment of ancient languages was done before I had a PhD.
The difference between you and me is that I have never been intimidated by the Academie. I found the truth and I published it; many times in peer reviewed journals eventhough I did not have a PhD, or teaching at a University.
My guiding words are:" Education is good, boldness is Better". Bi-polar, self-hating cowards like you feel that until you get credentialed you should stay in your place.
You claim I am like a bully beating on little kids. Berating laymen for not being professionals. This is a ludicris statement, I began my research as a layman and remain outside the Academie in relation to my Afrocentric research,except in relation to curriculum issues. The difference between you and me is that I have cultivated by research skills.
The greatest researcher in Afrocentric history didn't even attend College: J.A. Rogers. He is great because he learned his craft and was bold enough to publish.
Granted people in the 1980's called me Dr.Winters, but I never led them to identify me as a PhD. They called me "Dr", because my work was being published in journals around the world. I learned to be an Afrocentric scholar not at University, but from reading J.A. Rogers, DuBois and Diop. I only added Dr. to my name after I earned my PhD.
I repeat: I respect everyone on this forum. I respond to them in a respectful manner, never arrogant or abusive like you.
But, I refuse to be silent when I see a self-hating Black, like you, attack the ability of African people simply so he can be considered a member of the status quo or "a good boy" or "topdog" at EC.
If you disagree with my work please show 1) that there were no West African type skeletons found in Mexico; 2) the Mande language is not a substratum language of Mayan and Mixe;3) that the Olmec did not use a Mande writing system ; and 4) that they did not practice a Mande religion. Right now you are just showing your envy of a man not afraid to challenge the status quo to establish truth.
Stop trying to make it appear that the "big bad professional" is bullying the little guy. Granted, I have taught linguistics on the University level, but I am just like you, a "layman", since I am not teaching anthropology or archaeology. The difference between me and you though, is that I am not a coward, I stand behind what I write--not like you a sad man waiting for the status quo or any European generally, to support my work.
Aluta continua....
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Takruri
quote:
I peeped your hole card, bud. You were afraid to comeback on your detractors but because I've conducted myself humbly with you you took me for a weakling you could attack with impunity, taking out on me all bottled up inside you from those who truly dissed you but you were too sissied of them to take them on.
Again you are full of your own mess. I don't fear anyone. I have presented my work at numerous Anthropological conferences. I have no bottled up anger, because how can I feel dissed when my work is published and presented at conferences.
I have presented my work at many National and International Conferences.
Friday, April 16th ... in Highland Chiapas. 9:30. Clyde Winters (Loyola U - Chicago) Olmec Symbolism in the Mayan Writing. 9:50. Nestor Quiroa (U Illinois ... www.aaanet.org/csas/mtg99/program/pfri.html
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Saturday, April 17th ... 11:15. Samuel Cooper (Bar Ilan U) The Classification of Biblical Sacrifice. 11:35. Clyde Winters (Loyola U - Chicago) Harappan Origins of Yogi. 11:55. ... www.aaanet.org/csas/mtg99/program/psat.html
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preliminary program csas98 ... Mexican Villages. 4:10 Clyde A. Winters (Uthman dan Fodio I) Jaguar Kings: Olmec Royalty and Religious Leaders in the First Person. 4:30
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Thursday April, 3 - Early Afternoon ... Russia [1413]. 2:30 pm - Clyde A. Winters (Uthman dan Fodio Institute) - The Decipherment of Olmec Writing [1414]. 2:50 pm - James ... www.aaanet.org/csas/mtg97/final.htm
I delievered these papers as a "layman", long before I earned my PhD. Now please name the Conferences where you have presented your research.
I'm waiting..........
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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
You'll crawl lower than any snake or worm in use of ad homina in place of directing your energies to answering these questions of mine which YOU dug up from long ago and far away and plastered here yesterday
quote: For the time period of 1200 BCE - 200 CE produce Mande art from Mauritania/Mali that's of the same worksmanship and representative style resembling either Xi * Colosal Cabezos, * ceramic art pieces depicting humans, * jade art pieces depicting humans. Also Xi style ballgames among 1200 BCE - 200 CE Mande in Mauritania/Mali.
Anytime you grow up we can discuss these and other matters to the point. As for "blackness" you would've got the ride of no return for counter revolutionaries who collude with the enemy as soon as you jumped into bed with pseudoHoremheb and also for negative accusation against others actively dedicated to struggle; in short for being counter revolutionary. Don't you dare aluta continua me. You disgrace the struggle to spread factual knowledge of African and aid those who declare African history is a myth of shakey supposition.
Fact is you do act like one of those on the FBI/CIA payroll of disruptor agents planted to keep progressives at each others throats.
Fess up! Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Takruri
quote:
Anytime you grow up we can discuss these and other matters to the point. As for "blackness" you would've got the ride of no return for counter revolutionaries who collude with the enemy as soon as you jumped into bed with pseudoHoremheb and also for negative accusation against others actively dedicated to struggle; in short for being counter revolutionary. Don't you dare aluta continua me. You disgrace the struggle to spread factual knowledge of African and aid those who declare African history is a myth of shakey supposition.
Fact is you do act like one of those on the FBI/CIA payroll of disruptor agents planted to keep progressives at each others throats.
Fess up!
I will, I love all mankind but, I especially love my people. I love the fact that I was born Afro-American because I come from a tradition of people who no matter what the cost will find a way to speak truth.
You talk about being in bed with the enemy Horemheb. Sorry I don't see any enemies on this forum just poeple expressing their opinion about this or that.
Horemheb is not always wrong. Some of the things he says I disagree with, but he is right sometimes. He knows that a lot of the things some of you talk about in relation to the genetic findings is out of context and would probably not be accepted by the geneticists you claim to support your ideas.
You attempt to lable me a counter revolutionary and that I " aid those who declare African history is a myth of shakey supposition ". This shows the delutional mind you possess. The paradigms I discuss on this forum have been part of the Afrocentric ancient historical sciences for over a hundred years. I will repeat I am a falsificationist, a hypothesis can be confirmed or disconfirmed. I write from an Afrocentric perspective because it is founded on the evidence.
You on the otherhand attack Afrocentrists, deny any truth in the work of Diop (i.e., the Berbers are the ancient Libyans), and call African voyages to prehistoric America a myth. You are the enemy of Afrocentrism not me.
Like Hore says, you always claim race does not exist, and in the next breath use race. I am not attacking you. I am just commenting on the fact that you hate your self.
I repeat: I respect everyone on this forum. I respond to them in a respectful manner, never arrogant or abusive like you.
But, I refuse to be silent when I see a self-hating Black, like you, attack the ability of African people simply so he can be considered a member of the status quo or "a good boy" or "topdog" at EC.
If you disagree with my work please show 1) that there were no West African type skeletons found in Mexico; 2) the Mande language is not a substratum language of Mayan and Mixe;3) that the Olmec did not use a Mande writing system ; and 4) that they did not practice a Mande religion. Right now you are just showing your envy of a man not afraid to challenge the status quo to establish truth.
.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Tired of dealing with you on your ad hominem distractionary level.
Since you cut and pasted me on the below it's time to deal with it or admit more research is needed before it can be fully answered.
quote: For the time period of 1200 BCE - 200 CE produce Mande art from Mauritania/Mali that's of the same worksmanship and representative style resembling either Xi * Colosal Cabezos, * ceramic art pieces depicting humans, * jade art pieces depicting humans. Also Xi style ballgames among 1200 BCE - 200 CE Mande in Mauritania/Mali.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Takruri, what about the Zulu connection??..
quote: China and the Zulus
Chinese headdresses, straw hats, and Brides It is said that the beginning is half of everything, and I was inspired to write my first book, The Other Santorini, by a gold headdress from Troy (ca. 2,500 B.C.) found by H. Schliemann, which was similar to those of Chinese Emperors. Years later, watching the documentary “Shaka Zulu,” I saw that he and female members of his family wore similar headdresses. This made me think there was possibly a relationship between the Zulus and China. The royal Zulu ladies also wore straw hats that were identical to Chinese and ancient Greek ones.
“Zulu” means “heaven.” Like the Chinese Emperor, Shaka (1787 – 1829) was called “Son of Heaven,” and he prayed for rain like the Chinese Emperor and King Minos of Crete; “by custom, he was required to make rain.” Shaka would wash his hands before meals in a special earthen basin, and the Chinese Emperor in a lotus flower-shaped bowl, like the golden one of the Kypselids of Corinth (presently in the Boston Museum of Fine Arts). A Zulu bride’s face would be covered like a Chinese bride’s, and a modern bride’s, today. This common custom alone would be enough to correlate the Zulus and the Chinese.
Today, the traditional color worn by a bride in China is red (the color of joy), but originally was probably white, if we think of the Zulu bride who was decorated with white oxtails around the arm and the ankle. Zulu kings had many wives, like Chinese emperors, with the exception of Shaka, who did not marry because he was against marriage and having children himself. All the same, he had a harem of 1,200 women, like the hundreds of concubines of Chinese emperors.
They did not practice castration (there were no eunuchs), so Shaka chose the ugliest men to be guards of his harem; but in the eyes of the women who were starved for sex they looked like Apollo! Despite the strict prohibition (the penalty was death) many made love to the guards.
Zulu men shaved their heads like the Chinese,except when they were in mourning – like the people of Crete today who grow beards for the rest of their lives to mourn a loss. It was prohibited during mourning to wear ornaments, to wash the body, or to shave, and the penalty for disobeying this was also death.
The Zulus and the Old and New Testaments I was astounded when I saw that Shaka, when he was to become King, first rinsed his body with water, then lathered with a paste of fat, smeared his entire body with a red paste, and finally, after application of native butter, his body was resplendent “with a beautiful ruddy, silky gloss.” (A Zulu bride was also anointed with sesame oil.) My mind went immediately to King Solomon and to Jesus Christ in the Old and New Testaments:
And Zadok the priest took a horn of oil out of the tabernacle and anointed Solomon (1 Kings 1, 39). And the Lord told Elijah the prophet: Go to Damascusand anoint Harael to be King of Syria. And Jehu the son of Ninshi shalt anoint to be King over Israel (1 Kings 19, 15-16).
Messiah means “the anointed one” in Hebrew, as does the word Christ in Greek, and in the Greek Orthodox Church the priest puts oil on the heads of babies when they are baptized.
Christ said to Simon: My head with oil thou didst not anoint (Luke 7, 46).
Priests and prophets were anointed as well as kings. “As regards the king, it seems to have been a custom only among Jews, the anointment being a way of showing that a Jewish leader had received God’s personal help.” Shaka was called “King of Kings,” as were Jesus Christ and Genghis Khan. On the day of Shaka’s coronation as King of the Zulus, the spokesman of the Great King Dingiswayo asked “is there anyone who does not agree? If so, let him speak now or hereafter be silent.” The same question is posed by a minister in Christian weddings: “ if there be anyone who opposes this union, let him speak now, or forever hold his peace.”
The Oath The oath was practiced by the ancient Greeks, and the Hippocratic oath, sworn to by doctors even today, is world renowned (“I swear by Apollo Physician and Aesclepius and Hygeia and Panacea…”). In the court of Areopagus, litigants as well as their witnesses would take an oath. “I will not disgrace the sacred weapons” was the beginning of the oath sworn by an Athenian youth when receiving a spear and shield. I also remember “the oath which swore to our father Abraham” from Luke 1, 73; and that Christ told his disciples “do not swear at all” because, it seems, during his time people abused their oaths, and as witnesses frequently did not speak the truth. “And Herod swore unto her, whatsoever thou shalt ask of me, I will give it thee….” (Mark 6, 29). “But he began to curse and to swear saying…” (Mark 14, 71).
The Chinese today swear “by heaven” or “by their father and mother,” and in modern Greek there are expressions like “I swear by my life,” “by what I hold most sacred,” and “by the bones of my dead father.” I was surprised to see that the strongest Zulu affirmative oath was also to swear “by the bones of my father.”
Zulus and Greek Idols with folded arms The folded arms of Early Bronze Age (ca. 2,500 B.C.) Greek idols (naked marble statues) are world-renowned. This position of respect was also known in China, but because nudity was completely prohibited very early, the folded arms were no longer discernible under their large sleeves, with the result that Greek art has monopolized this characteristic human attitude. Native Americans would also fold their arms in this way. Monkeys sit with their arms folded, but I do not know if they imitate man, or if it was the other way around. Primitive man was very close to nature, and would observe bird and animal behavior. (Shaka told the story of how to trap a monkey: place a fruit or something shiny into a gourd with a narrow neck, and the monkey would reach in to get it. Once with hand in the gourd, greedy as he is, the monkey would not let go of the object, and so couldn’t take his hand out, and thus would be captured.)
During my research I often could not believe my eyes at the similarities I would find, and this is the case with Shaka’s personal guards. In his presence they always stood with their arms folded on their stomachs. Once, a contemporary king of Shaka’s – sentenced to death by his adversary – waited to be executed (according to the description by E. A. Ritter) “with his arms folded” (a sign of respect to the supreme power).
Snakes and trophies Zulus shared the belief with the Chinese and the Greeks that ancestral spirits take corporal form in the shape of non-venomous snakes. The Greeks and Chinese believed they descended from Kekrops and Fuxi, who were half-man, half-snake.
The staff of the redoubtable witchSitagi,a Shamaness, had a snake coiled around it, like the snakes of the Caduces of Hermes and on Aesculapius’ staff, or the pastoral staff of Greek Orthodox Bishops.
And the Lord said unto Moses, what is that in thine hand? And he said a rod. And the Lord said cast it on the ground and he casted it on the ground and it became a serpent.” (Exodus 4, 2-3).
Sitagi’s staff was crowned by the skull of an enemy king decapitated by her dreadful son. Behind her hutshe kept a “museum” of skulls, trophies of killed kings and princes. And inside the Erechtheion on the Acropolis spoils and trophies were kept, reminding Athenians of their victories and forever humiliating their enemies.
At first the Zulus were a small clan, Shaka disposed of only 350 warriors. But after six years their number grew to 40,000, and today the descendants of Shaka number 9 million, forming the largest ethnic group in South Africa. As the orator Isocrates wrote, “we consider a Greek anyone who shares our culture,” Shaka proclaimed “anyone who joins the Zulu army becomes a Zulu.”
Zulu and Greek shields and the Pyrrhic Dance The Zulu shield had an oval shape, which shape has survived only with the Pyrrhic dance in Greek art. The shield was long, to cover the warrior “from the mouth to the toes,” and Shaka had a boy carry his behind him to the battlefield, as Athenian citizens had slaves carry their shields. A Spartan preferred to die rather than drop his shield and flee; a Zulu would cover his back with it in retreat, or just drop it and run away.
In the Pyrrhic dance the shield was small and light; such a “toy shield” was apparently held by a bride of Shaka’s father for the dance after their wedding.
On his first appearance as king in 1816, Shaka was holding an oval ceremonial ox-hide shield four feet long and snow-white in color, tempered by a single black spot. “The shields of cadets (16 –19 years old) were wholly black, and those of juniors had a little white. The more experienced were given shields with increasing white markings and, finally, the veterans carried pure white ones with, at the most, a tiny spot of black.” The smiths of Shaka were busy, providing uniform-colored shields for the different regiments.
As a herd boy of sixteen Shaka acquired eight hunting spears and a small shield of black cow-hide (16 inches long, and 12 inches wide). The regiment of virgins (created by Shaka) was equipped with small shields. In an initiation ceremony with a burning fire, a Zulu boy, naked up to this point (puberty), would be given a front apron to hang from his waist (to hide an accidental erection) and later a second one to cover his buttocks. In that ceremony he would also be given a spear and shield, exactly like the Athenian youth.
In Taiwan today the little boys of an aboriginal tribe dance a traditional dance half naked, wearing only short trousers and holding wooden shields. And in inner Mongolia child-wrestlers fight half naked. Also a drum would sound to start a dance, as well as to start battle.
The Greek Pyrrhic dance was danced by heroes – a hero was considered someone who excelled in battle, in the hunting of wild animals, and in singing and dancing. In Greek the word pyrrhic is related to fire, and it is interesting that a fire would burn as part of Zulu initiation ceremonies. It is probable that after the ceremony the boy-heroes would dance a war-dance for the first time, holding shields.
According to one version, the goddess Athena invented and was the first to dance the Pyrrhic dance, to celebrate the victory of the gods over the giants who represented the dark and evil forces of nature. The Greek dancers were naked, like the Zulu boys, and held small oval shields horizontally, as Zulu dancers hold them even today (it seems holding it horizontally kept the shield from obstructing the dancer’s legs).
The Pyrrhic dance was a war dance for celebrating victories, and in Greece the dancers were divided into two groups: defenders and attackers. Their quick movements were aimed at not giving the enemy a “firm target.”
The Zulus were also divided into two groups, one moving from right to left and the other from left to right, like the movement of a snake. A “snake dance” is danced today by the Puyuma aborigines of Taiwan to celebrate the New Year. As they dance in a circle half of them go from left to right, and the other half seems to go in the opposite direction.
The Native American Hopis also dance a snake dance.
The short skirts and arm-rings of the Zulus are similar to those of ballet dancers today, whose skirts and wrist-bands are made of tulle. This implies that dancing in general began as a war dance. The Zulu warriors’ skirts were made of ox and gray-blue monkey tails and strips of leather, while those of the maidens were made of fig-tree leaves, bringing to mind Eve’s fig-leaf. Daughters of headmen and of wealthy families had skirts of multi-colored expensive beads which they traded with the Arabs, often for cattle.
Shaka and the Elders It is known that in certain parts of Africa it was customary to kill, cook, and eat the old people in order to inherit their wisdom and knowledge. E. A Ritter is very accurate, and his information about the Zulus most valuable, but I think he did not pay enough attention to the fact that Shaka, although born a general and very intelligent (he has been compared to Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and Napoleon), also consulted a great deal with the Elders of his clan, and learned everything from them. The Native Americans also governed themselves with Elders in this way.
Shaka expressed the idea that he and King George IV of England should establish a committee of Elders to work out a way for Black and White people to live together in harmony and peace.
Once, when seven-eighths of the sun was eclipsed and the Zulus feared they might perish, Shaka told them “I have heard the old people say it has happened before.”
Moreover, when Shaka abolished the wearing of sandals by his soldiers in order to give them superior speed, he had probably not thought of this himself, but had heard it from the old people. (The Greeks also fought barefoot, to be able to run faster, as sandals impeded the movements of a warrior.)
Zulu ox-hide sandals had four straps; but originally they wore the “sayonara”-type sandal (what we call thongs or “flip-flops” – with a strap between the first big and second toes, attached to either side), worn today on beaches everywhere, and in Japan. In ancient times they were common in Egypt; and in the Acropolis Museum the only one of the 16 Athenian Kore (statue of girl) whose lower legs are still preserved wears this the kind of sandal.
Shaka and Miltiades Most likely Shaka did not invent all his strategies for winning battles himself, but learned them from the old people’s stories. Once, to win a battle in which the enemy was much more numerous than his army, he applied the same strategy Athenian general Miltiades had used against the Persians at Marathon. Miltiades strengthened the wings of his troops and left the center weaker with only a few ranks (the two wings had eight rows of men each, and the center only three). Thus when the wings came together, the Persians who had penetrated the center were encircled. Shaka placed twenty men in the center in four groups of five, and in each wing two groups of fifteen of his swiftest and best soldiers. When the two wings met, all the enemy that had advanced into the center were taken prisoner.
Was Miltiades’ Marathon plan original, or had it been learned from stories from the past? Miltiades had spent many years in Thrace, and had served with the Persians against the Skyths. Perhaps he had learned this and other strategies then.
Military secrets were traditionally handed down from father to son, like the secrets of masons. The Propylaea of the Acropolis is similar to the main entrance of the Forbidden City in Tiananmen Square in Peking, and the number of gates is the same: five (an odd number, as the central gate on each was bigger). In the end they may have both copied a common earlier pattern, and although the Propylaea predate the Forbidden City, it is very likely that the architect Mnesicles did not himself devise the plan for the Propylaea, but rather copied it from a scroll.
The Spartan King Leonidas and Shaka When Leonidas of Sparta was told to surrender at Thermopylae and to send Xerxes his soldiers’ weapons, he gave the famous answer: “Come and get them.” When Shaka’s father died, an enemy King reminded Shaka that, as his father’s heir, he was obliged to send him the three selected Zulu maidens that his father had promised. Shaka’s answer was: “Come and get them”! Had Shaka learned this expression from the Elders? Had this been in use in other instances in the past as a response to arrogant demands?
Leonidas intended to defend the pass of Thermopylae with 300 Spartans, and thus save Greece from the Persians. Is it coincidence that God said to Gideon “You will defeat the Medianites with 300 people”? (Judges 7, 7).
In 1828 when facing his executioners, Shaka said “You too, my children?” echoing Julius Caesar’s words to his adopted son Brutus, thousands of years later. Did such sayings get passed on, from mouth to mouth, generation to generation?
Zulu, Chinese, and Greek Festivals When the Persian fleet left Samos for Attica (490 B.C.) the Athenians, aware of the eminent danger, sent a messenger to Sparta to request help. However, the new moon was only nine days old, and Spartan law did not allow their soldiers to leave Spartan territory until after the full moon. A full moon occurs on the fourteenth night after a new moon.
At that time the Spartans were celebrating the Karneia, a festival of war-like character (held every four years) in honor of Apollo. This lasted nine days during the full moon of August, and during this festival naked youths (gymnopaidiai) helped the priests in their sacrifice of the animals.
When the full moon was over, 2,000 Spartans (accompanied by 2,000 “mat-boys” (who carried the sleeping mats, etc.) marched hurriedly to Athens, but when they arrived three days later the battle had already taken place (September 12, 490 B.C.), and the glory of the victory belonged to the Athenians alone.
Here we get an idea of how the phases of the moon influenced the lives of the Greeks.
The Chinese Lunar Calendar was also based on the moon. Every year the Chinese “New Year Festival,” or “Spring Festival” is on a different day (between January 20th and February 21st); it falls on the day after the first full moon following the Winter Solstice (December 21st). Similar to the Chinese “New Year/Spring Festival,” the Greek Orthodox Easter also does not take place on a fixed date, as it too follows the Lunar Calendar. Every year it falls on the first Sunday following the first full moon after March 21st (the Spring Equinox).
Catholic Easter is usually on a different day because the Catholic Church adopted the Solar, or Gregorian Calendar (the two Easters fall on the same day once every five years).
The Moslems (Ramazan and Bairam) also hold holiday celebrations in relation to the Lunar Calendar. In Egypt a similar festival was celebrated around March 21st, and Jewish Passover also takes place on the first full moon after March 21st.
Every Jewish family had to sacrifice a lamb, which they then roasted on a spit. Whatever was left after they ate had to be burned, because it was not allowed for that meat to be eaten the following day.
I was most surprised to see that, according to Ritter’s book, “all Zulu festivals were held only at the full of the moon. “Three days before the full moon [italics mine] the biggest black bull was chased for an hour round and round. Then the whole regiment hurled itself on the animal with bare hands. Some of them were hurt but the rest of them got a grip on the bull, whenever they could and threw it to the ground. Then raising the horns as levers they twisted its neck till the spinal cord was broken…. The bull was then roasted and bits of the meat were thrown into the air, and each warrior had to catch a piece and eat it. Whatever remained of the bull was completely incinerated and the ashes buried.”
The Easter lamb is similarly roasted on a spit in Greece.
To become King, a Zulu prince had to kill a bull with his bare hands. He was then recognized as a hero and could lead the victory dance. Anyone who killed a dangerous snake (such as a black mamba), an elephant, a lion, or a leopard was also regarded as a hero. The head of a snake or a leopard or an enemy would be crushed with heavy clubs (like that of Hercules).
To hold festivals during a full moon was very reasonable, because nights weren’t dark when illuminated by the moonlight. It seems the August full moon is the brightest and most beautiful, and this is when the Greeks chose to hold their major festival: the games in Olympia. The Olympic Games took place every 5th year (after 4 complete years) at the first, or more often the second full moon after the Summer Solstice (June 21st) between the end of July and the beginning of September, and lasted five days. Every two years the festival at Isthmia was also held during the full moon at the end of August or beginning of September.
The Great Panathenaea, held every four years (not in the same year as the Olympic festival, but with a difference of two years), lasted nine days, and it seems this Athenian festival was also held during a full moon (end of July, beginning of September), like the Karneia in Sparta. It is probable that all Greek festivals were held during full moons.
The Zulu first fruit festival (little Umkosi) was held every year; until then no one was permitted to eat any of the agricultural produce. This festival was held during the full moon near our Christmas, and the Great Umkosi took place during the next full moon. In Greece the first ripe fruits and wheat of the year (aparchae) were brought in and dedicated to the gods. Only then were the people allowed to eat themselves!
The Zulus used to tell time by the moon: “Shaka returned on the third day of the new moon.” “At the new moon after the little Umkosi the regiment began to hoe Shaka’s garden.” Shaka’s soldiers once complained that “they had been through a woman-famine for many moons.” “Shaka was told of a Great White civilization which had established its advance posts many moons’ journey to the South...”. In a Western [film] a Native American refers to a three-moon journey” (one moon = 28 days).
Military tactics and turquoise-blue Like the Spartans, Zulus were full-time soldiers. And like the Spartans, each had a young boy with him to carry provisions, a mat, and the heavier items. Shaka trained his soldiers hard, himself.
“The Royal Salute was shouted. The Zulu regiment gave one thunderous stamp with the right foot to show their approval…”.
“…perfecting the system of rapid transmission of orders from the commander to the ranks, the pause for one deep breath and then the simultaneous right foot crash which was the signal for executing the order.”
“The rhythmic stamping of 10,000 feet made the Earth shake – an ominous display of power…”.
Today, militaries all over the world stamp their right foot when saluting, as do the Evzons (the ex-royal Greek guard, in their traditional costume which includes leather shoes with a tassel that shakes when they stamp).
Many Shaka warriors had turquoise-blue circles painted on their chests, sharing a universal belief that this color had the power to avert evil. It would protect Chinese children, whose partially shaved heads were painted blue, as were the teenagers on the Santorini frescoes. The blue scarab protected the Pharaohs, the turquoise stone the Native American, and the blue paint on the faces of Breton and Scotch warriors. While the blue “eye” (shape and color) always meant protection, everywhere, and Kings are referred to as “blue-blooded.”
Doors and windows are painted turquoise-blue to shut out evil, and entire houses have blue walls or blue bands around them, from China and India and the Arab countries, to France (Camarque), Spain (Mancha), and Mexico (“senefas”).
The Zulus made extensive use of beads (like the Native Americans) – multicolored, but mainly blue – for their headbands, belts, necklaces, and chestbands (one or two bands, in the form of an X, or many narrow ones, all with symbolic patterns).
As sentries they held a spear (with both hands, one above the other along the center of the body) as the Chinese held a sword.
Tatoos and painted geometric marks on the face, body, and houses All over Africa faces and bodies were tattooed or painted with patterns symbolizing snakes (stripes to indicate the boa, scales for the viper, diamonds for the rattle-snake, etc.), offering protection to the individual. From the diamond (rhombus) a triangle was derived when cut in two vertically, and a zigzag when cut in two horizontally. “Metops and triglyphs” symbolized the coral snake and the Elaphe scalaris (ladder snake), from China, the Amazon, the Americas, Egypt, and Bronze and Iron Age Greece, and by the Australian Aborigines, showing what a strong memory original man had.
On the huts in Zulu villages, and inside on wooden columns, painted symbolic patterns were interwoven, like on nomad tents in Tibet, on the teepees of Native Americans, and on early representations of houses in Greece. Snakes were coiled in relief on Zulu columns, like on Chinese dragon columns.
The Zulus lived in a circle of beehive-shaped straw huts with a semicircular doorway. In the center of the hut there was a somewhat oval, slightly sunken hearth (like in the palaces of Mycenai and Pylos), in which there was always a fire burning.
Inside the men sat on the right, and the women and children on the left, like it is done in the Greek Orthodox Church, in some places, even today.
The circle of huts had a fence around them, and in the center there was a smaller fenced circle in which the cattle were kept.
Buffalohorns and grain barns One of the most impressive Zulu head-dresses worn by generals and officials and made, I believe, of a thin leaf of brass, reminded me of buffalo horns because of its shape.
Buffalo hunting was most dangerous, but also most rewarding; killing a buffalo made one a hero. In many parts of the world hunters would do a victory dance afterwards, wearing the horns on their heads. In southwestern China it is believed by the Miao even today that buffalo horns bring luck and have the power to ward off evil. In Guizhou young girls and brides wear horns made of silver on their heads, and these people also use horns to decorate the prows of their ships. Hunters in China and Tibet hang them outside their doors, and Zulu villages had thousands mounted on poles. They were also mounted on poles by Aborigines in Australia, as well as by the Ifugaos of Luson island in the Philippines.
Necklaces out of buffalo teeth were made by the Zulus and the Native Americans.
The fact that Zulus wore head-dresses made to look like buffalo horns as they did in Giuzhou betrays their country of origin, and the specific area where this custom originated.
Zulu barns strengthen this supposition. The film “Shaka Zulu” brought my attention to small structures for storing grain that were on wooden stilts on the outskirts of the villages. They reminded me very much of a structure I had seen in a photo in one of the hundreds of Chinese periodicals I had glanced through, but I couldn’t remember what the structure was – was it also a barn for grain? When I found the photo in China Today (July 1995), I couldn’t believe it! Yes, it was a barn on stilts, made of bamboo and used for storing grain and other valuables: “a common structure on the outskirts of villages of the Yao people in the provinces of Hunan, Giuzhou, and Yunnan.”There is no doubt it was the same type of barn, because of its unusual shape, and it’s almost identical use. The photo was once again from the Guizhou area, further proof of which part of China the Zulus originally came from.
Hunting of leopards, lions, and elephants The leopard was hunted because it was extremely dangerous to the Zulus’ domestic animals, such as cattle and sheep, and because of its beautiful fur. They used the fur as a coat to be worn over the shoulders, to sit on, and as a mattress at night. “All leopard skins were the prerequisite of Royalty.” Even a strip of leopard skin was enough to indicate royal descent. The patterns on leopard skin are similar to those of certain snakes; crowns and headbands were also made of otter skin (water-snake), which had been stuffed.
It is again a most surprising similarity that aboriginal tribes in Taiwan today wear the same kind of crown made of leopard and otter skins.
The elephant was hunted because it destroyed crops, and because of its tusks (both male and female African elephants have tusks), for making necklaces, earrings, and bracelets. Shaka possessed two ceremonial axes with ivory handles, like Chinese Imperial axes.
On either side of a skull on poles, the Zulus would hang tusks to make it look like an elephant’s head. This look could provide an explanation for Apollo’s “long hair” in the Museum of Delphi, and the “bands” on either side of the faces of Chinese gods and emperors.
The largest and most invincible animal was the elephant. The Chinese and the Native Americans had the custom of naming people after birds and animals (bear, horse, lion, eagle). Similarly, Shaka was called “the big elephant,” and his mother Nandi “the big female elephant.”
The Zulus would hang tails of ox and of monkeys around the neck, waist, arms, and legs. But it seems to me they also hung hair from lions’ manes – it was blond in color, soft, and shiny like “angel’s hair,” and like the hair of the “Golden Fleece.”
Like in China, a Zulu woman could not ascend the throne (in Hawaii there was a queen), and Shaka’s father’s sister once said to him “you are the king and not me, only because of this thing you have between your legs.”
The Zulu dance and the ballet Dancing in general originally began as a war-dance, to celebrate a victory. A drum would sound to begin the dance (like the beginning of a battle). After the victory of the gods over the giants, Athena led the dance, as she was the only goddess who had taken part in the Gigantomachia. This dance was called the “Pyrrhic” dance, performed, probably, next to a fire. The dancers held small oval shields (probably wooden, to be light) horizontally, like the Zulu dancers today, and as Shaka’s father’s bride held an oval toy shield for the dance after their wedding. It was customary among the Zulus for only unmarried girls and young men to dance, alternating in separate groups.
After the Jews left Egypt and succeeded in crossing the Red Sea, “Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances” (Exodus, 15, 20)
“On the Acropolis, north of the Erechtheion was a courtyard for ritual dances.”
Dancers’ tutus in the Ballet today are like those of the Zulus, and the tulle rings worn around the arm near the elbow are reminiscent of the ox-tails (and later straw rings, in places where oxen were scarce). In the Don Quixote ballet today, Dulcinea holds a fan while she dances, as they do in aborigine dances in Taiwan.
Head-wreaths and the Greek Orthodox wedding The Zulu head wreath was made from parts of trees, and was regarded with respect, as a badge of honor and dignity. Usually it distinguished a married and respected man, but Shaka wore one from the age of thirteen, indicating his noble birth. There were white and black rings on it, and the rings of leopard skin. The wreath symbolized the snake and meant protection.
Wreaths connected by a ribbon are worn today by bride and groom in a Greek Orthodox Wedding.
Across the chest and over the shoulder, the King would wear a band of leopard skin or of beads with symbolic patterns, as on the belts of the Pharaohs and the Native Americans.
Besides wreaths, the Zulus also wore small animals on their heads, like the Chinese with the animals of the Zodiac, and the Minoan goddesses. Weasel, mink, and snow-leopard cubs decorated Chinese, Minoan, and Zulu heads.
Common body stances and acts of respect When Shaka was assassinated, one of his generals approached and, before kneeling next to the dead body, took off his feather headdress. The three Wise Men took off their hats next to the infant Christ, and today the Greek Orthodox take their hats off when passing a church. A gentleman is supposed to take his hat off when greeting a lady, and also kiss her hand.
Whenever I saw my godfather as a child (considered the “spiritual father” of a child by the Greek Orthodox), my mother would tell me to kiss his hand. Children kiss the hands of priests in church when they are given the holy bread, and when I saw the film on Shaka, I was most surprised to see that each of the royal Zulu ladies, one by one, kissed the hand of Shaka’s mother.
The Zulus had no chairs, and used to sit on the floor on rocks. They would sit on their knees on the ground next to a superior (this was probably copied from animals). The Chinese, Japanese, Mongolians, Egyptians, Hindu Indians, and Native Americans all sit on their knees. Another position of respect practiced in Mongolia today is that of a soldier next to his officer, with his arms tight alongside the body like on a Greek Kouros. Shaka’s guards and the Greek idols had folded arms to show respect.
The black fur hats of Shaka’s guards are similar to Orthodox Jewish hats, to those of Tibetans, and to the guards of Buckingham Palace in London. It seems to me all kinds of hats originated in Tibet, which is situated very high, has a clean atmosphere, and therefore the sun would beat down on the head very much.
Early man observed that you can see and hear better when seated in a semicircle. This explains the configuration of theaters, of groups of monks in Tibet, of scholars, and of the Native American councils. “The council were seated in a semicircle around Shaka, who was seated on a rock.” And “With the army facing him in a semicircle, Shaka thanked all the warriors for their effort.
Pages used to bring river water in gourds for Shaka’s customary ritual public bath. They held them vertically over their heads and handed them to Shaka with both hands. This is the way of offering things respectfully even today in China, and was also the way in Byzantium. The three Wise Men held their gifts for the new-born Christ with both hands, and a Greek Orthodox priest holds the Holy Communion vessel, covered with red velvet, with both hands.
“A Zulu home was a model of discipline and manners. The dominant rule was that of complete submission to paternal authority. The little boys revering the big boys; the bigger boys the men, and all their parents.”
The Impalement “This was one of the most revolting punishments ever devised by the human imagination.” It was particularly for traitors. The Greeks also had a kind of crucifixion, and if hemlock caused no pain, death in the “barathron,” a deep well in the Acropolis where people were thrown to die of hunger and thirst, was certainly dreadful.
Impalement was the Turks’ preferred method of execution. “A stake was inserted into the victim’s posterior and forced all the way through his body.” Athanasios Diakos, the hero of the Greek revolution against the Turks died this cruel death. This is how we roast the poor Easter lamb today, and how the Zulus roasted a bull killed with their bare hands.
Cronus and Zeus, and Shaka and his baby son In China every day of the month was dedicated to a bird or animal, and the fifth day of the fifth lunar month was dedicated to the owl. Children born on that day would be taken to the forest to die because “when grown, would kill their father.” (Like Oedipus, which myth was also known in Egypt.) “The owl is the only bird whose children devour the parents.” (Marcel Granet, “The Chinese Civilization.”)
Cronus devoured his children the moment they were born because an oracle had said he would be killed by one of them. Cronus’ wife tricked him and thus spared the baby Zeus, who finally did kill Cronus later.
Shaka did not marry, and did not want children. When “by mistake” a harem girl would give birth to a son, Shaka would kill the baby “because a bull has perfect place until the young bulls – his progeny – begin to dispute his supremacy.” Had Shaka heard such stories as Oedipus from the Elders?
The heir of a king would be the first son from his first wife, unless otherwise designated. A dying king would give his finger ring to his heir; one Zulu king in captivity, “suspecting the worst,” solemnly removed his brass arm-ring, and gave it to his fourteen year-old son.
Burial customs Similarities are also found in burial customs. The Zulus, like the Chinese and the Greeks, would bury their dead kings with their servants and personal guards; their necks would be twisted to cause immediate death. The king would be carried in his coffin by people who wore no ornaments. (When my father died, the first thing my mother did was to take off her gold and pearl earrings, a wedding gift from her mother-in-law that had decorated her ears during the sixty years of her married life.)
The dead body of the king was first wrapped in a black ox-hide, and the face carefully covered and fastened with a cord because dirt was not supposed to fall on it. Still, today, the Greek Orthodox place a [red or white] handkerchief on the face of the dead before lowering the coffin into the grave.
Victims often still alive and moving were thrown into the pit. Achilles sacrificed many Trojans at the funeral of his friend Patroclus.
Feathers on the head The universal practice of decorating the head with feathers also links the Zulus to China, the Amazon, Australia, Egypt, Crete, and the Americas. It seems the feather was given as a prize for heroic acts, and in an aborigine tribe in Taiwan today, the first winner of the traditional foot-race is given three feathers to wear on the head.
“Shaka was so pleased once with our victory that he ordered the whole regiment to don a single red loury feather which is the insignia of honor and victory….”
“The feathers of the red loury with its striking red are the insignia of outstanding bravery given to distinguished warriors.”
“Shaka would at first allow nobody but himself to wear the brilliant scarlet feathers of the red loury (of which he wore twelve bunches); he presently allowed his most important chiefs to wear one bunch and warriors who had distinguished themselves one feather each.”
“A murmur of admiration arose from the whole assemblage as they viewed Shaka in gala uniform. Round his bare head he wore a circle of stuffed otter skin, bearing within its circumference bunches of gorgeous red loury plumes and, erect in front, a high glossy blue feather, two feet in length, of the blue crane.”
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: Why are you trolling Djehuti? You're starting to act like Horemheb now. If you don't have anything to add to the discussion why post just to attack people?
Ahem. Excuse me?? I already gave some input near the beginning of this thread. Why are you lying saying that I said all East Africans were elongated or something?! LOL
If you want more input, I will give it to you...
Because you did. Don't play your little Horemheb games with me...you know what you said. There were other people in the thread too trying to tell you how crazy that sounded.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Ah, grasshoppa-dawg! I see you have mastered the long spam post of irrelevent trivia technique. It will always cause your opponent weariness and cause him also perhaps to vomit. It is a near unstoppable method of routing one's opponent disabling his continuance to parlay.
Hi-dee-ho the long spam!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wu-Tang!
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Takruri, what about the Zulu connection??..
quote: [i][b]China and the Zulus
-- ad nausea deleted --
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: Because you did. Don't play your little Horemheb games with me...you know what you said. There were other people in the thread too trying to tell you how crazy that sounded.
Unlike Hore, my so-called 'games' have an actual sense to them. Now, exactly when and where did I say what you claim I said?? cite the thread and post. If not, then be quiet and step up to my 'game'.
What have you to say about my Zulu-Chinese connections??
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Ah, grasshoppa-dawg! I see you have mastered the long spam post of irrelevent trivia technique. It will always cause your opponent weariness and cause him also perhaps to vomit. It is a near unstoppable method of routing one's opponent disabling his continuance to parlay.
Hi-dee-ho the long spam!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wu-Tang!
I have an excellent master-- good ol' Clyde Winters! Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: Because you did. Don't play your little Horemheb games with me...you know what you said. There were other people in the thread too trying to tell you how crazy that sounded.
Unlike Hore, my so-called 'games' have an actual sense to them. Now, exactly when and where did I say what you claim I said?? cite the thread and post. If not, then be quiet and step up to my 'game'.
What have you to say about my Zulu-Chinese connections??
I haven't looked into it...I skipped most of that long post you made (unless you're just BS'ing and there is no Zulu-Chinese connection). As far as that thread...it was the one about Akenaton and who in Hollywood could play him. I'm not in the mood of digging through pages of old threads, then looking for one post you made right now. But I stand by my word (maybe I'll do it tomarrow or something).
:lol:
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Kawashkar
quote: For the myth of civilizations in the Americas, I have to say your sources are outdated. The oldest civilization in the Americas is not the Olmec anymore. I won't tell you the name of the civilization because you can be tempted to write a book about it
I hope you wake up one day and start to realize that what really matters is that all people are human beings, and that all have its own history. You don't need to look for glory, or manufacture it. You only need to know the truth to be proud of the past.
As I say, I wont' argue with you, but you know me well.
No bad feelings about it, anyways.
My name is Omar Vega, alias KAWASHKAR
Hi Omar. No bad feelings taken. I did not have anything to do with your banning at Ta Seti.
The issue is not denying people their heritage I have never did such a thing. I have always noted that the Mayan civilization is uniquely Mayan. But the Olmec were not Amerindians they were Africans this is supported by their iconography, writing and skeletal remains.
You can believe what ever you wish to believe, established belief and permenant false mental schemata will not erase the fact the Olmec came from Africa and founded the "mother culture" of the Amerindian civilization, just like the Africans from Egypt introduced civilization to the Greeco-Romans.
Here we are discussing the Mande influence on the Olmec religion.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Kawashar we discussed the skeletal and genetic evidence of an African influence among the Olmec earlier on Egypt Search. The discussion is found at the following page: Olmec Discussion
.
Posted by kawashkar (Member # 11828) on :
Dear Dr. Winters.
You are a charlatan!
I am glad to know there is a lot of people who detects you a mile away.
Olmecs were Native Americans. Mande script is not ancient but from the 19th century. There isn't documented contact between the outside world and the Americas before Columbus, (except by the short and failed excursions of the Vikings circa 1000 A.D.).
Why is so important to robb the heritage of Native Americans?
I am glad you love Native American culture, and admire so much theirs achievements. But in the process please don't robb the tumbs of the Olmecs. Don't be a Waquero, please.
KAWASHKAR
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Kawashkar
quote:
Dear Dr. Winters.
You are a charlatan!
I am glad to know there is a lot of people who detects you a mile away.
Olmecs were Native Americans. Mande script is not ancient but from the 19th century. There isn't documented contact between the outside world and the Americas before Columbus, (except by the short and failed excursions of the Vikings circa 1000 A.D.).
Why is so important to robb the heritage of Native Americans?
I am glad you love Native American culture, and admire so much theirs achievements. But in the process please don't robb the tumbs of the Olmecs. Don't be a Waquero, please.
KAWASHKAR
If this is true please demonstrate that there were no African skeletons found at Olmec sites ; the Olmec religion is not anlogous to the ancient Mande religion; and that the Olmec writing is not related to the Vai script.
.
Posted by kawashkar (Member # 11828) on :
quote:If this is true please demonstrate that there were no African skeletons found at Olmec sites ; the Olmec religion is not anlogous to the ancient Mande religion; and that the Olmec writing is not related to the Vai script.
It is you who have to make the effort to prove things. Actually, your "African skeleton" theory is outdated, all religions are analogous to the other religions and Vai writing did not exist before 1820.
Yes Clyde. You will have to make a greater effort, and look what scientists say as well.
KAWASHKAR
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^^The insanity has begun!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Kawashar we discussed the skeletal and genetic evidence of an African influence among the Olmec earlier on Egypt Search. The discussion is found at the following page: Olmec Discussion
.
And again, I ask specifically what is this evidence and what is its nature??
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Kawashkar
quote:
It is you who have to make the effort to prove things. Actually, your "African skeleton" theory is outdated, all religions are analogous to the other religions and Vai writing did not exist before 1820.
Yes Clyde. You will have to make a greater effort, and look what scientists say as well.
KAWASHKAR
Kawashkar you got it all wrong. I presented evidence that the Olmec were Africans. It is your job to present evidence disconfirming my evidence.
You present none. As a result, your comments are worthless. I only comment on your post to show your ignorance of Olmec civilization and history.
You are wrong on both points. First, please cite the referreed journal articles that have disputed Wiercinski's craniometric measurements that found Africans at Olmec sites.
There is considerable evidence that the Vai writing was invented millenia before 1820. This view is supported by the presence of signs analogous to the Vai script being found on rocks from the Fezzan to the Niger Valley and beyond that make up the corpus of the Vai script .
Contraversy surrounds the invention of the Vai script. Delafosse claimed that Vai informants told him the writing system was invented in ancient times. S.W. Koelle in Narrative of an expedition into Vy country West Africa and the Discovery od a system of writing,etc.(London,1849) claimed that the writing system was invented by Bukele in 1829 or 1839. David Diringer in The Alphabet (London,1968,pp.130-133) reported that there was a tradition that the writing was invented by a group of eight Vai. Marcel Cohen La grande invention de l'ecriture at son evolution (Paris,1958, p. 21) beleived that the Vai writing system was not invented before the 18th century, but more probably at the beginning of the 19thth century.
The story about Bukele's dream is just a cover, used by Bukele to keep members of the Gola Poro society from being angered by Bukele's open teaching of the Vai script .
We know that the symbols associated with the Vai script existed prior to Bukele's alledged invention of the Vai writing because it was known to African slaves in Suriname. In 1936, M.J. Herskovits and his wife on a field trip to Suriname recorded a specimen of writing written by a man while he was possessed by the spirit winti. Mrs. Hau, who examined the specimen wrote that "Most of the component parts of are to be found in the syllabaries of West Africa which we havd just discussed" (see: K.Hau, Pre-Islamic writing in West Africa, Bulletin de l'IFAN, t35, ser.B,No.1 (1973)pp.1-45).
The British took over Suriname and ended slavery in 1799. Years before Bukele's alledged invention of the Vai writing. As a result, there is no way a descendant of a Suriname Maroon (runaway slave) could have produced the writig under possession by the spirit winti if the writing was invented by Bukele.
If you read the history of Bukele's alledge invention of the Vai script we discover that although Bukele dreamt of the Vai characters he was able to "reconstruct" the symbols not by deeply medatating on the dream, he:Later Dualu retired from his work as a steward and returned to his hometown in the Vai chiefdom. But he couldn’t forget the idea of having a means of writing. He asked himself, “Why can’t we have something like this for our own Vai people?” One night he had a vision in which he saw a tall white man who said, “Dualu, come. I have a book for you and your Vai people.” The man in the vision then proceeded to show him the shapes of the Vai characters used in the Vai writing system. When Dualu awoke, he began to write down the characters he’d seen in his vision. Sadly, there were so many he could not remember them all, so he called together his friends and fellow elders and shared with them his vision and the characters he had written down. His fellow Vai elders caught his excitement and over time, they added more characters in place of those Dualu could not remember.
This is the main give-away that the writing existed before Bukele's alledged invention. Firstly, how could "his friends and fellow elders" help him recover the Vai signs, if the signs were not already invented--since these men had not had Bukele's dream.
Secondly, before Bukele popularised the Vai script he sought protection from King Fa Toro of Goturu in Tianimani for his school. The King granted protection to the inventors of the Vai script because "The king declared himself exceedly pleased with their discovery, which as he said would soon raise his people upon a level with the Porors and Mandingoes, who hitherto had been the only book-people" (see: S.W. Koelle, Outline grammar of the Vai language--and an account of the discovery and nature of the Vai mode of syllabic writing, London,1854)
Bukele needed a Kings support for the teaching of anyone the Vai writing because the first schools set up to teach the script at Dshondu and Bandakoro were burned down along with the Vai manuscripts found in the schools after 18 months .
If Bukele had invented the Vai script as he claimed, why did he need protection for his schools? The answer is that he didn't invent the writing he just popularized the script.
The Vai script was taught in the Mande secret societies. This is why eventhough the script is well known, it is cloaked in an aura of secrecy.
This view is supported by the fact that when Thomas Edward Beslow, a Vai prince who attended mission schools in Liberia and the Wesleyan Accademy in Massachusetts was iniated into the Poro Society he mentions in his autobiography that many members fo the secret society could write in Vai (see: T.E. Beslow, From Darkness of Africa to the light of America).
What do we learn from this report. First, the Vai script was known to Vai elites. Obviously, members of Poro would not like non members of the society to know about this writing. Yet, Bukele was teaching the Vai writing to any one who desired to learn it , so the Vai would be recognized for their literacy just like Europeans. Secondly it was being taught in the Poro society, which King Fa Toro, did not belong too.
Today eventhough the Vai script is well known the writing is semi-secret. As a result. some commentators believe the Vai no longer write in the script. This led Christopher Fyfe in A History of Sierra Leone, to write that: "Though an English trader who spent some time among the Vai in the 1860's found schools where children were still learning it,it was almost forgoten by the early twentieth century, and today is only studied by linguist".
Fyfe was wrong. Gail Stewart, only five years later in Notes on the present-day usage of the Vai script in Liberia (African Language Review 6,(1967)p.71) found that the script was still very popular among many Vai.
David Dalby wrote about a Gola student of William Siegman, who allowed Siegman him to copy the inscription but he would not translate same. This student attributed the writing to the Poro Society, and said he was taught the writing by his grandfather. Dalby wrote: "After the present paper hd gone to press, Mr. William Siegman of Indiana University gave me information on a fifteenth West African script, used in Liberia for writing Gola. Mr. Siegman had seen a young Gola student at Cuttingham College (Liberia) writng a letter in this script in 1968, but although the student allowed him to take a copy of the letter he declined to provide Mr. Siegman with a Key"(see:D. Dalby, Further indigenous scripts in West Africa and etc.,ALS,10,pp.180-181).
Dalby viewed the assertion of the student that the writing was used by members of the Poro Society with sceptacism. But Dalby should not have been sceptisim because Beslow had made the same claim.
In conclusion, Bukele probably did not invent the Vai writing. This is supported by the fact that 1) the symbols associated with the Vai script were well known to members of the Poro Secret Society; 2) descendants of Maroon Blacks in Suriname were familiar with the script; and 3) the Vai writing, for the most part remains in use but it is maintained in a semi-secret fashion and not usually shared with people who are not members or kin of members of a secret society, this is why the Gola student would not translate his letter for Mr.Siegman.
Finally it must be remembered that the symbols engraved on rocks from the Fezzan to the Niger bend and other areas where the Mande live are identical to symbols associated with the Vai script. This shows the continuity of writing among the Mande speaking people over a period of 3000 plus years.
The evidence from Suriname, symbols on the rocks near Mande habitations, and the existence of the symbols relating to the Vai script in other Mande writing systems and their continued use by members of the Vai and members of secret societies support Delafosse's tradition that the Vai writing existed in ancient times.
Given the fact that the Mande have maintained writing for 3000 years, it was only natural that when the Xi people founded the Olmec civilization they would teach writing to their children/descendants. This is supported by the evidence of an education system among the Olmec where youth learned about their culture and civilization discussed at the beginning of this thread.
This is proven by the LaVenta celt, and the tablet from Cascajal, which was found near near San Lorenzo, one of the earliest centers of Olmec civilization where many stone heads have been found.
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