posted
"While they were at Hazeroth, Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married (for he had indeed married a Cushite woman). . ."
Posts: 554 | From: Somaliland | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Do you mean Midianites? Apparently, there were both eastern Cushites and also African Cushites. The Hebrew word Cushi means ''black'',and is even used today to refer to black people.
Zeporah,Moses wife, would have been a eastern Cushite.
Here is a similar thread about the issue on the Nile Valley:
quote:Originally posted by ausar: Do you mean Midianites? Apparently, there were both eastern Cushites and also African Cushites. The Hebrew word Cushi means ''black'',and is even used today to refer to black people.
Zeporah,Moses wife, would have been a eastern Cushite.
Here is a similar thread about the issue on the Nile Valley:
Who are the 'Eastern' Cushites??? Who are the Midianites and what connection do they have with these 'Eastern' Cushites??..
Posts: 26349 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I don't know who the eastern Cushites are. All I know is that the term Cushi in Hebrew means ''black'' and they reffered to both eastern Cushites and also people south of Egypt as the following.
Read the following post on TheNileValley to get more details about the following.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Nobody else has any comments on this? Don't let a perfectuly good topic go to waste. Ceelgabo? Anybody?
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Nobody else has any comments on this? Don't let a perfectuly good topic go to waste. Ceelgabo? Anybody?
Auser I thought you could tell me whether the midinites were Cushites as the Torah says or whether if they were Arabs or Palastnians.
Posts: 554 | From: Somaliland | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Well, I believe they would be considered Cushites because the Torah translates them as Cushi which is a Hebrew word for black. There is nothing stating that Arabs could not be Cushites. The Hebrews recognized both Eastern and African Cushites. The Midianites were from modern day Jordan and were probably a nomadic bedouin like population.
The historian Josephus even calls them Aethiopies[the same meaning the the Hebrew Cushi] denoting their dark skin color.
After all people like Herodotus divided the aethiopies into Africans and also eastern Aethiopies.
Other than the following, I have no additional information.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Well, I believe they would be considered Cushites because the Torah translates them as Cushi which is a Hebrew word for black. There is nothing stating that Arabs could not be Cushites. The Hebrews recognized both Eastern and African Cushites. The Midianites were from modern day Jordan and were probably a nomadic bedouin like population.
The historian Josephus even calls them Aethiopies[the same meaning the the Hebrew Cushi] denoting their dark skin color.
After all people like Herodotus divided the aethiopies into Africans and also eastern Aethiopies.
Other than the following, I have no additional information.
So the question is were these Midianites descendants of the Africans who spread Afrasian into the Near-East, or were they descendants of far older indigenous populations of the Near-East.
For those of you who don't know, there are black populations that are indigenous to the Near-East and have lived there long before light-skinned so-called "caucaoid" Near-Easterners. An example of these indigenous black Asiatics would be the Elamites.
What I find interesting, is that in one tomb painting (I forgot which tomb) there are Asiatics paying tribute to Egypt, some light-skinned while others are much darker.
So were the Midianites connected with Elamites and other black Asiatics??
Posts: 26349 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I never heard of the elamites can you give any more detail about them Djehuti.
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by KING: I never heard of the elamites can you give any more detail about them Djehuti.
The Elamites were a black Asiatic people who are indigenous to Iran and had their own civilization contemporaneous with that of Mesopotamia. They were eventually overrun by the Iranians (Persian civilization is the descendant of Elamite civilization) , but you can still see pictures of them in ancient Persian paintings.
Posts: 26349 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Thanks for this. I just came back from a website talking about the elamites. Its interesting to see black people in Iran. I wonder if there is still black people in Iran.
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
It's interesting to note that Linguists state that Proto-Elamite is in no way related to any of the Sumerian, Semitic or Indo-European languages, it is most related to the Dravidian (Elamo-Dravidian) yet in Scripture Elam is recorded as the first son of Shem, the Patriarch of Semites.
Genesis 10:22
The sons of Shem: Elam, Asshur, Arphaxad, Lud and Aram.Posts: 1203 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ceelgabo_11: "While they were at Hazeroth, Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married (for he had indeed married a Cushite woman). . ."
I think Moses who wrote Genesis knew that there was a big difference between the Midianites and the Cushites. I don't think these two terms were every used synonymously in the Bible.
Secondly, it is a known fact that there was a mixed multitude of people that went up with Moses in the Exodus. This group of people included Egyptians, Cushites etc. Therefore it wouldn't be impossible or improbable that Moses could have married a Cushite.
Thirdly, there is no evidence to assume that the woman in contention between Moses and Mariam was Zipporah. Zipporah could have died, or Moses could have married another woman which wasn't unreasonable then.
Fourthly, Josephus relays the traditional message that when Moses was in Egypt he did battle with the Cushites and married a Cushite princess Tharbis as a political union.
Therefore it is an unwarranted assumption to say that Moses wife was a Midianite.
Posts: 134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Lets get one thing straight here, the biblical Cushites have nothing to do with the modern people called Cushitic speakers. In fact the name Cush iself was applied only to Nubians, not Somalis nor Oromos. The closest would be the Beja and even their language is an outlier among the Cushitic language family.
quote:Originally posted by Triple Stage Darkness: Lets get one thing straight here, the biblical Cushites have nothing to do with the modern people called Cushitic speakers. In fact the name Cush iself was applied only to Nubians, not Somalis nor Oromos. The closest would be the Beja and even their language is an outlier among the Cushitic language family.
As Ausar said, 'Cushi' is the Hebrew word for black and was used by the Hebrews to describe black peoples in general from Nubians to black Asiatics.
As for Elamites being closely related to Dravidians at least ethnically, it is still a matter of debate. Some scholars propose the Elamite language being related to Dravidian due to some similarities, but most scholar disagree since there is not enough evidence to support a direct linguistic link. I have no doubt that the Elamites are related to Dravidians, but I wouldn't say that their languages were members of the same family.
Posts: 26349 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Cushites were used by the Hebrews to denote Nationality. In addition Cushites were used in close relations to the Egyptians by the Hebrews. Here as some examples of the relative closeness to Egypt
Isaiah 20:5 And they shall be afraid and ashamed of Ethiopia their expectation, and of Egypt their glory.
Isaiah 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.
And here is a prime example where Cush is used to denote a Nation within a specific geographical area, and not necessarily as Elamite Cush, Eastern Cush or Western Cush.
Isaiah 37:9 And he heard say concerning Tirhakah king of Ethiopia, He is come forth to make war with thee. And when he heard it, he sent messengers to Hezekiah, saying,
Cush as used in the Bible specifically references a Nation and general appearance of their people. So while it was used to speak of black asiatics, it found its predominant meaning in relation to the land south of Egypt.
Posts: 134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mansa Musa: Here are some more pics and a real life reference to the Modern People.
Elam Territory
Modern Dravidian
And Europeans would try to kidnap these people by skull shape, 'Caucasian' And Africans would try to kidnap them by skin color, 'Black'.
Posts: 345 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
But of course, there is no such thing as a 'caucasian' skull shape, nor do the ancient dravidians come from 'europe', nor are they ethnically related to europeans.
And black refers to skin color but has nothing to do with african.
It is the construct of 'race' and the fallacious assumptions made about it, based on skin color or skull shape, or anything else.... that is false.
The Blacks of Southern India are simply the Blacks of Southern India - they belong to India, and not to 'africa' or 'europe'.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: But of course, there is no such thing as a 'caucasian' skull shape, nor do the ancient dravidians come from 'europe', nor are they ethnically related to europeans.
And black refers to skin color but has nothing to do with african.
It is the construct of 'race' and the fallacious assumptions made about it, based on skin color or skull shape, or anything else.... that is false.
The Blacks of Southern India are simply the Blacks of Southern India - they belong to India, and not to 'africa' or 'europe'.
Problem with that claim is that while Black has been accepted as a self-identity by may African and Afro-Diasporic populations and even some populations like Australian Aborigines, Dravidians do not classify themselves as such and the moniquer is misleading, making people who self-identify as Black think that there is some type of racial classification. In this historical war that has been opened between Eurocentrics and Afrocentrics, other non-whites and non-blacks pay the price of cultural abduction.
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quote:While Black has been accepted as a self-identity by may African and Afro-Diasporic populations and even some populations like Australian Aborigines, Dravidians do not classify themselves as such
The above is also incorrect as actually some Dravidians and other South Indians do 'classify' themselves as such.
Ever heard of the Dalit Parivar? They are a south Indian version of the 'Black Panthers'. They describe themselves as dedicated to affirming the Blackness of India.
So much for the Eurocentric obsession with constricting the populations who may/may not be considered Black.
Meanwhile there are West Africans who consider 'Black' to be and insult.
So, you wouldn't have a point....even you 'did' have one, so to speak.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:While Black has been accepted as a self-identity by may African and Afro-Diasporic populations and even some populations like Australian Aborigines, Dravidians do not classify themselves as such
The above is also incorrect as actually some Dravidians and other South Indians do 'classify' themselves as such.
Ever heard of the Dalit Parivar? They are a south Indian version of the 'Black Panthers'. They describe themselves as dedicated to affirming the Blackness of India.
So much for the Eurocentric obsession with constricting the populations who may/may not be considered Black.
Meanwhile there are West Africans who consider 'Black' to be and insult.
So, you wouldn't have a point....even you 'did' have one, so to speak.
Nice try. I have already written about it. Dalits — In India, the group that has suffered the most oppression has been the Dalit "untouchable" caste, and many have looked to the American civil-rights movement for inspiration. Some Afrocentrists have been very pro-active in creating a mutual bond with these populations, considering them Blacks as well. Runoko Rashidi, who has been to India three times, [2] was contrite about the way he represented Dalits in the U.S. "I feel bad about it. I oversimplified to make it palatable to a Black constituency.] I've given the impression that Dalits are Black people. Dalits, I now find, are a social and economic group, more than a racial group." Nevertheless, Rashidi holds that "large sections of the Dalits would be seen as Black people if they lived anywhere else" and that the connections between Africans and Dalits "go beyond phenotype." Many have adopted the Afrocentric beliefs that they are African, and have formed organizations like the Dalit Panthers emulating the Black Panther Party of the USA.
Most Dalits do not identify as Black
Posts: 345 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:The Dalits - In India American civil-rights movement for inspiration. Some Afrocentrists have been very pro-active in creating a mutual bond with these populations, considering them Blacks as well. Runoko Rashidi...
...is irrelevant. You claimed that no Indians considered themselves Black. That claim has been falsified. Changing the subject won't help you.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Please quote where I said no indians claimed they were Black. Nice strawman. I said most don't The Sidi may identify as Black as well. Keeptrying to build your strawmen. I'll just shoot them down with direct quotes.
Posts: 345 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
other possibilities need to be considered i.e 1. Zipporah died, and Moses remarried. I emphatically state that the woman spoken about in Numbers 11 is Zipporah is to based that argument on silence, e.g The Bible did not speak of Moses remarrying, therefore the woman spoken about is Zipporah.
2. A mixed multitude went out from Egypt, therefore indicating that it very possible that Moses could have married an Ethiopian.
3. Eventhough the veracity of Josephus on this point comes into question, let us not discount it when he said that Moses married the Ethiopian Princess Tharbis during one of his military expeditions.
4. The Midianites were semitic, and within the cultural context, Cushite, Ethiopian was used specifically to denote the Nation status of the lands south of Egypt.
Posts: 134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Salsassin: Please quote where I said no indians claimed they were Black.
quote:Salsa wrote: While Black has been accepted as a self-identity by may African and Afro-Diasporic populations and even some populations like Australian Aborigines, Dravidians do not classify themselves as such
quote:rasol wrote: The above is also incorrect as actually some Dravidians and other South Indians do 'classify' themselves as such.
If you are now admitting that some Dravidians *do* consider themselves Black, then you are essentially backtracking and so refuting your own comments.
either way, make up your mind.
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Qamar et al. African and Levantine origins of Pakistani YAP+ Y chromosomes. Hum Biol. 1999 Oct;71(5):745-55. Biomedical and Genetic Engineering Division, Khan Research Laboratories, Islamabad, Pakistan.
We surveyed 9 Pakistani subpopulations for variation on the nonrecombining portion of the Y chromosome. The polymorphic systems examined were the Y-chromosome Alu insertion polymorphism (YAP) at DYS287, 5 single nucleotide polymorphisms, and the tetranucleotide microsatellite DYS19. Y chromosomes carrying the YAP element (YAP+) were found in populations from southwestern Pakistan at frequencies ranging from 2% to 8%, whereas northeastern populations appeared to lack YAP+ chromosomes. In contrast to other South Asian populations, several Pakistani subpopulations had a high frequency of the DYS19*B allele, the most frequent allele in West Asian, North African, and European populations. The combination of alleles at all polymorphic sites gave rise to 9 YAP-DYS19 combination haplotypes in Pakistani populations, including YAP+ haplotypes 4-A, 4-B, 5-C, and 5-E. We hypothesize that the geographic distributions of YAP+ haplotypes 4 and 5 trace separate migratory routes to Pakistan: YAP+ haplotype 5 may have entered Pakistan from the Arabian Peninsula by means of migrations across the Gulf of Oman, whereas males possessing YAP+ haplotype 4 may have traveled over land from the Middle East. These inferences are consistent with ethnohistorical data suggesting that Pakistan's ethnic groups have been influenced by migrations from both African and Levantine source populations.
Posts: 2720 | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Salsassin: Please quote where I said no indians claimed they were Black.
quote:Salsa wrote: While Black has been accepted as a self-identity by may African and Afro-Diasporic populations and even some populations like Australian Aborigines, Dravidians do not classify themselves as such
quote:rasol wrote: The above is also incorrect as actually some Dravidians and other South Indians do 'classify' themselves as such.
If you are now admitting that some Dravidians *do* consider themselves Black, then you are essentially backtracking and so refuting your own comments.
either way, make up your mind.
Nice try. Dravidians are not Dalits. Dalits are but a small portion of Dravidians. And all Dalits are not eve Dravidian.
Posts: 345 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
^ As there are nearly 200 million Dalits, I don't see your point. If some Indians consider themselves Black the statement below is not refuted and your statement is false.
quote:rasol wrote: actually some Dravidians and other South Indians do 'classify' themselves as such.
posted
Nice strawman. The fact is tha majority do not consider themselves as Black and you can try to argue semantics all you want, it won't change that point.
Posts: 345 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
^^^ non-sequitur, there are self disignated Blacks in India and always have been, you are thus proven wrong. whining won't help you.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Thought2: [QB] Re: The Elamites:
Qamar et al. African and Levantine origins of Pakistani YAP+ Y chromosomes. Hum Biol. 1999 Oct;71(5):745-55. Biomedical and Genetic Engineering Division, Khan Research Laboratories, Islamabad, Pakistan.
We surveyed 9 Pakistani subpopulations for variation on the nonrecombining portion of the Y chromosome. The polymorphic systems examined were the Y-chromosome Alu insertion polymorphism (YAP) at DYS287, 5 single nucleotide polymorphisms, and the tetranucleotide microsatellite DYS19. Y chromosomes carrying the YAP element (YAP+) were found in populations from southwestern Pakistan at frequencies ranging from 2% to 8%, whereas northeastern populations appeared to lack YAP+ chromosomes. In contrast to other South Asian populations, several Pakistani subpopulations had a high frequency of the DYS19*B allele, the most frequent allele in West Asian, North African, and European populations. The combination of alleles at all polymorphic sites gave rise to 9 YAP-DYS19 combination haplotypes in Pakistani populations, including YAP+ haplotypes 4-A, 4-B, 5-C, and 5-E. We hypothesize that the geographic distributions of YAP+ haplotypes 4 and 5 trace separate migratory routes to Pakistan: YAP+ haplotype 5 may have entered Pakistan from the Arabian Peninsula by means of migrations across the Gulf of Oman, whereas males possessing YAP+ haplotype 4 may have traveled over land from the Middle East. These inferences are consistent with ethnohistorical data suggesting that Pakistan's ethnic groups have been influenced by migrations from both African and Levantine source populations.
Thought, what's your position on the relationship between Elam, Dravidia, and the Nile Valley?
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Salsassin: ^^lame attempt at dodging the issue
How is Rasol dodging the issue??
Rasol said: "actually some Dravidians and other South Indians do 'classify' themselves as such."
What he said was not false! There are indeed some Dravidians who acknoweledge they are black and even some Aryan speakers also. Rasol has never made any assumptions or generalizations unlike YOU who seems to think black Africans come in a certain look since you claim that the Nubian mummy of Maiherpra is black but the Egyptian mummy of Tutmose is not!
Posts: 26349 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Salsassin: ^^lame attempt at dodging the issue
How is Rasol dodging the issue??
Rasol said: "actually some Dravidians and other South Indians do 'classify' themselves as such."
What he said was not false! There are indeed some Dravidians who acknoweledge they are black and even some Aryan speakers also. Rasol has never made any assumptions or generalizations unlike YOU who seems to think black Africans come in a certain look since you claim that the Nubian mummy of Maiherpra is black but the Egyptian mummy of Tutmose is not!
Nice try. The concept of Black was culturally imposed. That in recent years some fringe groups have adopted the concept of Black hardly is evidence that Dravidians or Dalits are Black.
Posts: 345 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
LOL. Some Afro-Americans claim to be the origina Jews. Doesn't make them so. That some people felt they could empower themselves by following the Black Panthers does not mean Dravidians are Black.
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