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If the dynastic Egyptians were the same racial stock as the Arabs, why does their depict Semites (that includes Arabs) as having lighter skin then themselves? Explain that to me.
Djehuti Member # 6698
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It is because Middle-Easterners DID have lighter skin than them, but Nubians had darker skin!
Which is why skin color by itself is not evidence enough.
Besides, we have been over this issue hundreds of times!
I suggest you type in skin color in the archive search and see what you turn up!
BrandonP Member # 3735
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I know this has been done before, but the idiots who want to associate pharaonic Egypt with modern Arabs (e.g. Ayazid, ABAZA, and Masreyya) are still promoting the "KMTians were of 'Middle Eastern' stock" BS. I want to tell them that their BS has run long enough, and that they should surrender to truth!
Mansa Musa Member # 6800
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Generlaizations and non-sequiturs Abaza. that's all you are touting.
This is though being done to death a very valid point.
If Modern Egypt is a perfect reflection of the Ancients the Egyptians would not depict themselves in a medium-brown skintone in contrast to their lighter skinned neighbors.
Wall reliefs depicting the various skintones of the people in Egypt's sphere of influence are ethnic distinctions stereotyping nationalities and not an absolute reflection of reality but on this subject those in support of the belief in a predominately tropical Black African Egypt in anituity have the upper hand.
If Ancient Egypt's population = Modern Egypt's they would have depicted themselves more closely to the people of the Levant and the Maghreb which the average Egyptian resembles more so than they do the brown skinned people of East Africa. Such a skintone though popular is still in the minority in Egypt today and would not be chosen as the model for Ancient Egyptian skin if it were not the dominate shade.
Levantine, Nubian, Libyan, Egyptian
Egyptian Soldiers
People of the World
Egyptian Servants
Masreyya Member # 1336
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quote:Originally posted by Underpants Man: I know this has been done before, but the idiots who want to associate pharaonic Egypt with modern Arabs (e.g. Ayazid, ABAZA, and Masreyya) are still promoting the "KMTians were of 'Middle Eastern' stock" BS. I want to tell them that their BS has run long enough, and that they should surrender to truth!
Do you think your lame attempt to insult me is going to lend your claim any support?? Part of any legitimate debate is a modicum of respect and decorum. Besides I have never "associated" the ancient or modern Egyptians with Arabs. There are associations between Egyptians and all their immediate neighbors, but not in the manner you seem to think.
Mansa Musa Member # 6800
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quote:Originally posted by ABAZA: [b]Your labels are wrong, because the first person with the braided hair, is a Libyan and not a Levantine. Interesting that he has the same hair style as the Egyptian.
This is a very common problem with AFROCENTRIC RESEARCH AND STUDIES-- they seems to always disregard or ignore things and facts that don't fit their political agendas. To be a scholar, one has to be OBJECTIVE and UNBIASED, and these two qualities are lacking with many of the Afrocentric studies and books presented.
[This message has been edited by ABAZA (edited 26 October 2005).][/B]
The Nubian also has the same hairstyle.
Do you have a source for the identity of the first man as being a Libyan rather than the 3rd man? I do not hav any books on Egyptian Art I am going by the descriptions Larry Orcutt put on his page. http://www.catchpenny.org/race.html
Syria is in the Levant and he labels the man a Syrian so that is what I am going by. I have seen a bigger version of that picture in which there are about 3 more duplicates of that same character.
Regardless, my point still stands on skin color and if the first man is a Libyan he is even lighter than the other person labeled as Libyan as evidenced by the other picture I presented with the characters in similar style and dress.
You're point of labeling me an Afrocentrist who does not think critically is a non-sequitar as my possible mistaking of the first man as a Libyan rather than a Levantine is not evidence of bias but if false only evidence of quoting an incorrect source.
My point still stands on the subject of skin color. The average skin color of the Modern Egyptian is not medium brown but closer to the Middle Eastern people painted in a lighter skintone than the Egyptian.
As I stated before these skintones are not absolute depictions of reality but rather ethnic stereotypes however it is clear which skin tone the Egyptians favored for themselves, they even painted their God in the same skin tone as Egyptian men, look at Horus in the bottom photo.
This is not conclusive of anything as it relates to the overall discussion, it is merely an unbiased observation of artwork and what it symbolizes.
BrandonP Member # 3735
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quote:They look almost identical in skin color, but some of the Egyptians seem to be a little darker with a more reddish brown color.
All the Egyptians are darker. Identical in skin color they are not.
Mazigh Member # 8621
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mansa, the first man left is a libyan with feathers. libyan meant amazigh/berber.
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The Fertile Crescent does not include North Africa. When the 'Arabs' of the Fertile Crescent came into Africa proper (North), the Berbers were their primary surrogates. I say so because the terrain of Morocco, etc resembled the areas of the Crescent.
The Berbers were indeed a different stock (no other word is intended) from the Egyptian. I might add that the Berbers and those who converted them were similar in appearance.
Djehuti Member # 6698
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Abozo's arguments are stupid as always
quote:This is an IGNORANT response, because Egyptians, Libyans, Asians, even Nubians, had people with light and dark complexions...
The question is how light or dark.
quote:The IDIOTIC part is that some AFRO-CENTRIC people want to label everyone who does not have Lilly-white skin as Black like them. The facts do not support these black racist people.
LOL You seem to be confused about the context of the term 'brown'. There is the type of brown you see among Mexicans, northern Indians, and even Southeast Asians like Filipinos. Egyptians have a much darker brown that is akin to many Africans, then again there are Africans who are light-skinned. This second statement contradicts your first statement about light-skinned Africans.
quote:There are many brown people around the globe, who are not black and do not consider themselves black and some of them even HATE BLACKS, such as the Mexicans, today.
Again, this 'brown' you mention is different from the color of the Egyptians who are much darker. Where did you get the idea that such people "HATE" blacks?! There might be some prejudice yes, but actual hatred? I think you project your own feelings, Afrangi! LOL
quote:Your labels are wrong, because the first person with the braided hair, is a Libyan and not a Levantine. Interesting that he has the same hair style as the Egyptian.
Interestingly, the braided hair style is AFRICAN. I see even African Americans walking around with that hairstyle today, yet hardly any modern Egyptians wearing that unless they are trying wear a popular 'black' style. What does that tell you Afrangi?
quote:Now, for the second observation, it seems that many Egyptians had the same coloration as the people of Asia, as one can easily compare the Egyptains of the bottom picture with the Asiatics in the top picture. They look almost identical in skin color, but some of the Egyptians seem to be a little darker with a more reddish brown color. Much closer to the brown asiatics than the Black Nubians.
LOL Of course you see what you want to see, but again the Egyptians' color was much darker. If an Arab today saw a person that dark on the street you would probably call him a Nubian or worse an Abeed! LOL
BrandonP Member # 3735
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[q]Do you think your lame attempt to insult me is going to give your claim any support?? Part of any legitimate debate is a modicum of respect and decorum. Besides I have never "associated" the ancient or modern Egyptians with Arabs. There are associations between Egyptians and all their immediate neighbors, but not in the manner you think.[/q]
My apologies. You are correct, I was foolish to associate you with the likes of ABAZA and Ayazid.
kenndo Member # 4846
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Abozo's arguments are stupid as always
[QUOTE][b]Your labels are wrong, because the first person with the braided hair, is a Libyan and not a Levantine. Interesting that he has the same hair style as the Egyptian.
Interestingly, the braided hair style is AFRICAN. I see even African Americans walking around with that hairstyle today, yet hardly any modern Egyptians wearing that unless they are trying wear a popular 'black' style. What does that tell you Afrangi?
quote:Now, for the second observation, it seems that many Egyptians had the same coloration as the people of Asia, as one can easily compare the Egyptains of the bottom picture with the Asiatics in the top picture. They look almost identical in skin color, but some of the Egyptians seem to be a little darker with a more reddish brown color. Much closer to the brown asiatics than the Black Nubians.
LOL Of course you see what you want to see, but again the Egyptians' color was much darker. If an Arab today saw a person that dark on the street you would probably call him a Nubian or worse an Abeed! LOL[/B][/QUOTE]
good points.
kenndo Member # 4846
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Most of the early egyptians i have seen in art are on average dark skin,and yes nubians on average are darker than egyptians ,but most of those early egyptians would still be clearly black and in skin tone and features would not look like the average egyptian today. you are right,these guys want to see what's not there.
Mansa Musa Member # 6800
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This looks like the hairstyle in question.
Mansa Musa Member # 6800
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You know, I was rereading reading chapter 58 of "Black,Spark White Fire" titled "Black,White or Reddish-Brown" and Poe too identifies the ethnic man with the lightest skin and feathers as a Libyan while the other is labeled Syro-Palestinian. So I guess Orcutt mislabeled it.
Poe also makes a note of the other painting I posted with multiple groups of men which is found in the tomb of Ramses III.
He notes that the Syro-Palestinian (Near Eastern/Levantine) people are depicted in 2 shades of skin, one darker than the other.
The Egyptians are depicted as uniformally reddish-brown and the second darkest group of people on the wall. He notes that this is consistent with the Greek and Roman writers distinguishing the Egyptians from the Ethiopians (people of burnt face), a term reserved for the darkest of men.
The Egyptians are described as on average slightly lighter and there are many cultural comparisons made between the Egyptians and the Ethiopians as well as the claim from Greek writers that the Egyptians decend from the Ethiopians.
Thought2 Member # 4256
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quote:Originally posted by Mansa Musa:
The Egyptians are described as on average slightly lighter and there are many cultural comparisons made between the Egyptians and the Ethiopians as well as the claim from Greek writers that the Egyptians decend from the Ethiopians.
Thought Writes:
The Greek writers encounter the Egyptians in the Late Period, well after the Hyksos assimilation. There is no evidence that the early indigenous Egyptian was any lighter or darker than other tropical Africans. Given the fact that pre-dynastic was a pan-African melting pot it is likely that the range of tropican African melanin levels was broad in scope.
BrandonP Member # 3735
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quote:The Greek writers encounter the Egyptians in the Late Period, well after the Hyksos assimilation. There is no evidence that the early indigenous Egyptian was any lighter or darker than other tropical Africans.
Actually, AEs usually depicted themselves as lighter than the Nubians, though they also portrayed themselves as darker than the Semites. Though you are right, Greek sources (Herodotus included) are overrated and they are probably of little (if any) use when it comes to explaining the racial traits of Egyptians during their glory days.
Thought2 Member # 4256
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quote:Originally posted by Underpants Man:
Actually, AEs usually depicted themselves as lighter than the Nubians...
Thought Writes:
Usage of the term "actually" would imply that you have stated something contradictory to what I have stated. This you have not done. Do you have ANY evidence of pre-Hyksos (late Middle Kingdom) Egyptians portraying themselves outside of the range of tropical African melanin levels OR lighter than ALL Nubians? If not then your comment has added no value.
Supercar Member # 6477
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quote:Originally posted by Underpants Man: Actually, AEs usually depicted themselves as lighter than the Nubians, though they also portrayed themselves as darker than the Semites.
Need to familiarize with Kemetian art, and how it changed with times. I've pointed this out to you on the Nile Valley forum, but I am not sure you've taken note of what was said.
Egyptian women were at times, depicted "yellow", does that mean that they were actually "yellow"?
In the bottom picture particularly, wouldn't you say that it is rather difficult to distinguish coloration between Egyptians and Nubians?
Mansa Musa Member # 6800
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In images of Ramses II slaughtering Nubians in battle on a wall relief hosted by the British Musuem's webpage I notice that Ramses has brown skin and the Nubians have brown and Black skin. http://www.ancientegypt.co.uk/pharaoh/story/main.html
And I agree with what you said Thought. People don't always realize that many of the images of the Egyptians happened in different periods when the population experienced admixture that could influence their phenotype.
This is what many Egyptian looked like during the Roman period.
Wait, those are Nubians? I thought they were Lower Egyptians.
Supercar Member # 6477
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quote:Originally posted by Underpants Man: Wait, those are Nubians? I thought they were Lower Egyptians.
Case in point. You aren't able to distinguish between the two here. If you observe carefully enough, you'll notice difference in garments. The Nubians have leopard skin color-like garments, while the Egyptians have plain white garments on!
brazil Member # 8204
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its obvious they were black..and later mixed with other ppl and the black blood became dilluted...its really not up for debate
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I thought they were Lower Egyptians.