quote:

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At the time of The Bell Curve's publishing, there were seven studies in the scientific literature concerning the cause of the black/white IQ gap. Six of them point to the environment; and only one points to genetics. The authors of The Bell Curve prominently displayed only the results of the pro-genetics test in the main text. Of the others, they dismissed one in a single-paragraph side bar, dismissed another in the endnotes, and simply ignored the rest.

Psychologist Richard Nisbett has been generous enough to provide the public with the details of all seven studies:

After World War II, many American GI's (both white and black) fathered children by German women; these children were then raised in German society. The children fathered by black GI's had an average IQ of 96.5, and the children fathered by white GI's had an average IQ of 97 -- a statistically insignificant difference.

In another study of children raised in residential institutions, black, white and racially mixed children who were raised in the same enriched environment were given IQ tests. At four years of age, the white children had an average IQ of 103, the blacks had an average IQ of 108, and the racially mixed children had an average IQ of 106.

[...]

A genetic study took advantage of the fact that African-Americans genes are about 20-30 percent European, and that Africans and Europeans differ just enough in their genetic blood groups to determine the degree of "Europeanness" in an individual. If intelligence were indeed genetic and favored in Europeans, we might expect blacks with greater Europeanness to be more intelligent. However, a study of 288 young blacks found almost no relationship between Europeanness and intelligence: the correlation was a trivial and nonsignificant .05.

Another genetic study examined the correlation between IQ and European blood groups (as opposed to the estimated Europeanness of individuals based on blood groups). In one sample of blacks, the correlation was a trivial .01, in the other a nonsignificant -.38, with higher IQ being associated with the more African blood groups.

Another study tested the hypothesis that if IQ were both hereditary and favored in Europeans, then blacks with high IQs should have several times the level of Europeanness than the black population in general. But a study of high-IQ black children in Chicago found that this wasn't the case; in fact, these black children were slightly less likely to have European ancestors.

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That is correct. There is NO evidence that Caucasoids are innately more (or less) intelligent than Negroids.

Also, the theory put forward by white racists to explain supposed "Negroid stupidity" is unsatisfactory. Their theory goes that Negroids evolved to be less intelligent than Caucasoids, because the latter had to deal with a colder, more wintry climate than the latter. Apparently white supremacists have never considered that the "more benign" climate of Africa also supports:

*Dry seasons (sometimes entire ponds can be dehydrated)
*Tsete flies and mosquitoes (still terrible burdens today)
*Giant, aggressive herbivores such as hippos, rhinos, buffaloes, and elephants
*Predatory lions, hyenas, leopards, and crocodiles

Will white racists please stop acting as if they represent Caucasoids as a whole? I'm Caucasoid and I hate how these pathetic honkies claim to speak for all of us.

http://www.audiblox2000.com/dyslexia_dysle...dyslexia014.htm

quote:

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IQ Test: Where Does It Come From and
What Does It Measure?
BY JAN STRYDOM, M.A., H.E.D., D.Ed. &
SUSAN DU PLESSIS, B.D., B.A. Hons (psychology)

The most important criterion in diagnosing a child as learning disabled is the IQ test. The aim of an IQ test is to measure the intelligence of a child, which supposedly is an indication of the child's potential. But where does the test come from and does it really measure potential?

Intelligence testing began in earnest in France, when in 1904 psychologist Alfred Binet was commissioned by the French government to find a method to differentiate between children who were intellectually normal and those who were inferior. The purpose was to put the latter into special schools where they would receive more individual attention. In this way the disruption they caused in the education of intellectually normal children could be avoided.1

This led to the development of the Binet Scale, also known as the Simon-Binet Scale in recognition of Theophile Simon's assistance in its development. It constituted a revolutionary approach to the assessment of individual mental ability. However, Binet himself cautioned against misuse of the scale or misunderstanding of its implications. According to Binet, the scale was designed with a single purpose in mind; it was to serve as a guide to identify children in the schools who required special education. Its intention was not to be used as “a general device for ranking all pupils according to mental worth.” Binet also noted that “the scale, properly speaking, does not permit the measure of intelligence, because intellectual qualities are not superposable, and therefore cannot be measured as linear surfaces are measured.”2 Since, according to Binet, intelligence could not be described as a single score, the use of the Intelligence Quotient (IQ) as a definite statement of a child's intellectual capability would be a serious mistake. In addition, Binet feared that IQ measurement would be used to condemn a child to a permanent “condition” of stupidity, thereby negatively affecting his or her education and livelihood:

Some recent thinkers…[have affirmed] that an individual's intelligence is a fixed quantity, a quantity that cannot be increased. We must protest and react against this brutal pessimism; we must try to demonstrate that it is founded on nothing.3

Binet's scale had a profound impact on educational development in the United States — and elsewhere. However, the American educators and psychologists who championed and utilized the scale and its revisions failed to heed Binet's caveats concerning its limitations. Soon intelligence testing assumed an importance and respectability out of proportion to its actual value.

H. H. Goddard, director of research at Vineland Training School in New Jersey, translated Binet's work into English and advocated a more general application of the Simon-Binet Scale.4 Unlike Binet, Goddard considered intelligence a solitary, fixed and inborn entity that could be measured.5

While Goddard extolled the value and uses of the single IQ score, Lewis M. Terman, who also believed that intelligence was hereditary and fixed, worked on revising the Simon-Binet Scale. His final product, published in 1916 as the Stanford Revision of the Binet-Simon Scale of Intelligence (also known as the Stanford-Binet), became the standard intelligence test in the United States for the next several decades.6 Once American educators had been convinced of the need for universal intelligence testing, and the efficiency it could contribute to school programming, within a few years,

the Simon-Binet Scale, originally designed for identification of children requiring special instructional attention, was transformed into an integral, far-reaching component of the American educational structure. Through Goddard's and Terman's efforts the notion that intelligence tests were accurate, scientific, and valuable tools for bringing efficiency to the schools resulted in assigning the IQ score an almost exalted position as a primary, definitive, and permanent representation of the quality of an individual. Hence, intelligence testing became entrenched in the schools over the next several decades.7

Few people realize that the tests being used today — of which the IQ test continues to be the most popular — represent the end result of a historical process that has its origins in racial and cultural bigotry. Many of the founding fathers of the modern testing industry — including Goddard, Terman and Carl Brighan (the developer of the Scholastic Aptitude Test) — advocated eugenics.8 Eugenics is a movement concerned with the selective breeding of human beings. Selected human beings would be mated with each other in an attempt to obtain certain traits in their offspring, much the same way that animal breeders work with champion stock. The eventual goal of eugenics is to create a better human race. The Nazis took this idea to the extreme. All “inferior” humans, especially Jews, retarded children or adults, and any individuals with genetic defects, were to be destroyed; and so many ill and retarded people, and many Jews, were killed during World War II.9

The founding fathers of the testing industry saw testing as one way of achieving the eugenicist aims. Goddard's belief in the innateness and inalterability of intelligence levels, for example, was so firm that he argued for the reconstruction of society along the lines dictated by IQ scores:

If mental level plays anything like the role it seems to, and if in each human being it is the fixed quantity that many believe it is, then it is no useless speculation that tries to see what would happen if society were organized so as to recognize and make use of the doctrine of mental levels… It is quite possible to restate practically all of our social problems in terms of mental level… Testing intelligence is no longer an experiment or of doubted value. It is fast becoming an exact science… Greater efficiency, we are always working for. Can these new facts be used to increase our efficiency? No question! We only await the Human Engineer who will undertake the work.10

As a result of his views on intelligence and society, Goddard lobbied for restrictive immigration laws. Upon his “discovery” that all immigrants, except those from Northern Europe, were of “surprisingly low intelligence;” such tight immigration laws were enacted in the 1920s.11 According to Harvard professor Steven Jay Gould in his acclaimed book The Mismeasure of Man, these tests were also influential in legitimizing forced sterilization of allegedly “defective” individuals in some states.12

By the 1920s mass use of the Stanford-Binet Scale and other tests had created a multimillion-dollar testing industry.13 By 1974, according to the Mental Measurements Yearbook, 2,467 tests measuring some form of intellectual ability were in print, 76 of which were identified as strict intelligence tests.14 In one year in the 1980s, teachers gave over 500 million standardized tests to children and adults across the United States.15 In 1989 the American Academy for the Advancement of Science listed the IQ test among the twenty most significant scientific discoveries of the twentieth century along with nuclear fission, DNA, the transistor and flight.16 Patricia Broadfoot's dictum that “assessment, far more than religion, has become the opiate of the people,”17 has come of age.

So What are We Actually Measuring?
If an IQ test is supposed to measure a person's intelligence, the question is: What is intelligence? Is it the ability to do well in school? Is it the ability to read well and spell correctly? Or are the following people intelligent?

The physician who smokes three packets of cigarettes a day?

The Nobel Prize winner whose marriage and personal life are in ruins?

The corporate executive who has ingeniously worked his way to the top and also earned a heart attack for his efforts?

The brilliant and successful music composer who handled his money so poorly that he was always running from his creditors (incidentally, his name was Mozart)?18

The problem is that the term intelligence has never been defined adequately and therefore nobody knows what an IQ test is supposed to measure. In spite of this the futures of thousands of children are determined by the results of this test.

Already in the early 1920s the journalist Walter Lippmann maintained that IQ tests were nothing but a series of stunts. “We cannot measure intelligence when we have not defined it,” he said.19

In 1962 Banesh Hoffman told a shocked America about the “tyranny of testing” in his classic book of the same name. His book and others that followed stirred up much controversy, leading the National Education Association in 1976 to recommend the elimination of group standardized intelligence, aptitude, and achievement tests.20 Sarason quotes an advertisement that was placed by Psychology Today in the New York Times in August 1979, part of which appears below:

In the chaos of controversy, the standard IQ exam is flunking the test. Many educational psychologists feel that IQ testers have failed to answer two all-important questions: What is intelligence? What have IQ tests actually measured?

The National Education Association, with membership of almost 2 million teachers, has called for the abolition of standardized intelligence tests because they are “at best wasteful, and at worst, destructive.”

Yale psychologist Robert Sternberg says in P.T. that psychologists know “almost nothing about what it is that they have been measuring. The tests have proved overall to have only low to moderate power to predict such things as future job performance, income and status, or overall happiness and adjustment.”21

However, the dust soon settled after this uprising and the testing industry became more powerful than ever. The National Education Association has completely changed its stand and now “recognizes the need for periodic comprehensive testing for evaluation and diagnosis of student progress.”22 This is no wonder, says Dr. Thomas Armstrong, since it would have taken a major miracle to eliminate testing.23

Today, voices for the elimination of standardized tests are few. One is Linda S. Siegel, professor in the Department of Educational Psychology and Special Education at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver, Canada. She proposes that we abandon the IQ test in the analysis of the LD child. According to most definitions — although they are not conclusive — intelligence is made up of the skills of logical reasoning, problem solving, critical thinking, and adaptation.24 This scenario seems reasonable, until one examines the content of IQ tests. The definition of intelligence, as is operationalized in all IQ tests, includes virtually no skills that can be identified in terms of the definitions of intelligence. To support her statement, Siegel gives a detailed analysis of the subtests of the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children-Revised (WISC-R). This IQ test is composed of Verbal and Performance sections, and is nearly always used in LD diagnosis. In each subtest of the Verbal scale, performance is in varying degrees dependent on specific knowledge, vocabulary, expressive language and memory skills, while in the Performance scale, visual-spatial abilities, fine motor coordination, perceptual skills, and in some subtests speed, are essential for scoring.25 As Siegel rightly points out, IQ tests measure, for the most part, what a person has learned, not what he or she is capable of doing in the future (his potential).26

There is an additional problem in the use of IQ tests with individuals with learning disabilities. According to Siegel it is a paradox that IQ scores are required of people with LD because most of these persons have deficiencies in one or more of the component skills that are part of these IQ tests — memory, language, fine motor skills, et cetera. The effect is that they may end up having a lower IQ score than a person who does not have such problems, even though they may both have identical reasoning and problem-solving skills. The lower IQ score, therefore, may be a result of the learning disability, and IQ scores may underestimate the real intelligence of the individual with a learning disability.27

Another assumption of the discrepancy definition is that the IQ score should predict reading, so that if you have a low IQ score you should be a poor reader and that poor reading is an expected consequence of low IQ. However, there are individuals who have low IQ scores and are good readers.28

The unreliability of IQ tests has been proved by numerous researchers. The scores may vary by as much as 15 points from one test to another,29 while emotional tension, anxiety, and unfamiliarity with the testing process can greatly affect test performance.30 In addition, Gould described the biasing effect that tester attitudes, qualifications, and instructions can have on testing.31 In one study, for example, ninety-nine school psychologists independently scored an IQ test from identical records, and came up with IQs ranging from 63 to 117 for the same person.32

In another study, Ysseldyke et al. examined the extent to which professionals were able to differentiate learning-disabled students from ordinary low achievers by examining patterns of scores on psychometric measures. Subjects were 65 school psychologists, 38 special-education teachers, and a “naive” group of 21 university students enrolled in programs unrelated to education or psychology. Provided with forms containing information on 41 test or subtest scores (including the WISC-R IQ test) of nine school-identified LD students and nine non-LD students, judges were instructed to indicate which students they believed were learning disabled and which were non-learning disabled.33

The school psychologists and special-education teachers were able to differentiate between LD students and low achievers with only 50 percent accuracy. The naive judges, who had never had more than an introductory course in education or psychology, evidenced a 75 percent hit rate.34 When Ysseldyke and Algozzine cite Scriven, they clearly show their belief that the current system is in trouble:

The pessimist says that a 12 ounce glass containing 6 ounces of drink is half empty — the optimist calls it half full. I can't say what I think the pessimist could say about research and practice in special education at this point, but I think the optimist could say that we have a wonderful opportunity to start all over!35

Notes:

Swiegers, D. J., & Louw, D. A., “Intelligensie,” in D. A. Louw (ed.), Inleiding tot die Psigologie (2nd ed.), (Johannesburg: McGraw Hill, 1982), 145.

Gould, S. J., The Mismeasure of Man (New York: W. W. Norton, 1981), 151-152, cited in Osgood, “Intelligence testing and the field of learning disabilities: A historical and critical perspective,” Learning Disability Quarterly, 1984, vol. 7, 343-348.

Gould, The Mismeasure of Man, 153-154, cited in Osgood, “Intelligence testing.”

Gould, The Mismeasure of Man, 159, cited in Osgood, “Intelligence testing.”

Goddard, H. H., Human Efficiency and Levels of Intelligence (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1920), 1, cited in Osgood, “Intelligence testing.”

Linden, K. W., & Linden, J. D., Modern Mental Measurement: A Historical Perspective (Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1968), cited in Osgood, “Intelligence testing.”

Osgood, “Intelligence testing.”

Armstrong, T., In Their Own Way: Discovering and Encouraging Your Child's Personal Learning Style (Los Angeles: Jeremy P. Tarcher, Inc., 1987), 27.

Dworetzky, J. P., Introduction to Child Development (St. Paul: West Publishing Company, 1981), 82-83.

Goddard, Human Efficiency and Levels of Intelligence, v-vii, cited in Osgood, “Intelligence testing.”

Gould, The Mismeasure of Man, 167, cited in Osgood, “Intelligence testing.”

Gould, The Mismeasure of Man, cited in Armstrong, In Their Own Way, 28.

Osgood, “Intelligence testing.”

Buros, O. K. (ed.), Mental Measurements Yearbook (Highland Park, NJ: Gryphon Press), cited in Osgood, “Intelligence testing.”

Armstrong, In Their Own Way, 27.

Bjorklund, D. F., Children's Thinking: Development Function and Individual Differences (Pacific Grove, CA: Brookes/Cole, 1989), cited in P. Engelbrecht, S. Kriegler & M. Booysen (eds.), Perspectives on Learning Difficulties (Pretoria: J. L. van Schaik, 1996), 109.

Broadfoot, P., cited in Engelbrecht et al. (eds.), Perspectives on Learning Difficulties, 109.

Dworetzky, Introduction to Child Development, 348.

Lippman, cited in N. J Block & G. Dworkin (eds.), The IQ Controversy: Critical Readings (New York: Pantheon Books, 1976).

Armstrong, In Their Own Way, 26.

New York Times, August 1979, cited in S. B. Sarason, Psychology Misdirected (New York: The Free Press, 1981).

National Education Association Handbook, 1984-85 (Washington, DC: National Education Association of the United States, 1984, 240), cited in Armstrong, In Their Own Way, 27.

Armstrong, In Their Own Way, 27.

Siegel, L. S., “Issues in the definition and diagnosis of learning disabilities: A perspective on Guckenberger v. Boston University,” Journal of Learning Disabilities, 1 July 1999, vol. 32.

Siegel, L. S., “IQ is irrelevant to the definition of learning disabilities,” Journal of Learning Disabilities, 1989, vol. 22(8), 469-478.

Siegel, “Issues in the definition and diagnosis of learning disabilities.”

Ibid; Siegel, “IQ is irrelevant to the definition of learning disabilities.”

Siegel, L. S., & Metsala, E., “An alternative to the food processor approach to subtypes of learning disabilities,” in N. N. Singh & I. L. Beale (eds.), Learning Disabilities: Nature, Theory, and Treatment (New York: Springler-Verlag, 1992), 45.

Smith, C. R., Learning Disabilities: The Interaction of Learner, Task, and Setting (Boston: Allyn and Bacon, 1991), 63.

Tyler, cited in A. Anastasi, (ed.), Testing Problems in Perspective (Washington DC: American Council on Education, 1966).

Gould, The Mismeasure of Man, 199-212, cited in Osgood, “Intelligence testing.”

Cited in J. Sattler, Assessment of Children's Intelligences and Special Abilities (Boston: Allyn & Bacon, 1982), 60.

Epps, S., Ysseldyke, J. E., & McGue, M., “'I know one when I see one'—Differentiating LD and non-LD students,” Learning Disability Quarterly, 1984, vol. 7, 89-101.

Ysseldyke, J. E., & Algozzine, B., “LD or not LD: That's not the question!” Journal of Learning Disabilities, 1983, vol. 16(1), 26-27.

Scriven, M., “Comments on Gene Glass,” Paper presented at the Wingspread National Invitational Conference on Public Policy and the Special Education Task of the 1980s, cited in Ysseldyke & Algozzine, “LD or not LD.”

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Mazigh, you may think or want to think that Black people are less intelligent than Whites, the point is there is no reason to think so.

IQ tests have not even proven to be an accurate measurement of intelligence, never mind the fact that the Bell Curve studies were not capable of factoring out everything that would prove the difference in racial scores was due to enviroment rather than genetics.

I always ask White Nationalists and Supremacists these simple questions when they bring up African-Americans having an average IQ of 85 and Whites 100.

Who took the tests?

What areas were they taken in?

How many participants were in the test?

Which test was it?

They don't seem to have the answers nor do they have answers for factors such as The Flynn Effect.

According to the Flynn Effect average IQ scores have been increasing at about 3 points per decade. The average IQ of Whites in different areas is higher now than it was decades ago and the same its true for other ethnic groups, which begs the question:

If IQ is genetic and Blacks are less intelligent than Whites, why is it that Blacks in present generations have an average IQ than say, Whites 50 years ago?

The average IQ of Great Britain was only a few points above 70 which is regarded as a point above being mentally retarded. This score was in the low 70s and lower than the average Black American IQ of 85. So are Blacks more intelligent than the fathers and grandfathers of today's Whites, in the land of the Anglo-Saxons no less?

Then ofcourse as it related to the Nile Valley this is something White Supremacists really can't stand to discuss. If Whites were really more intelligent than Blacks because of adapation to the harsh climates of Europe during the Ice age, why is it that thousands of years later, generations and generations after that supposed blessed experience did Africans have civilizations that predated Whites by thousands of years?

Even if we were to disregard Egypt as "Not Black" Ancient Nubia predates any sophisticated civilization in Northern and Central Europe by several hundred years. Did the Whites simply catch up? Shouldn't they have had civilization first?

Then of course ignoring all evidence the Nubians must have not been Black too right? Or maybe a different type of Black?

I guess they just don't count.

Another dillema for White racists is that if they believe themselves to be intellectually superior to Blacks as a race do they believe themselves to be inferior to East Asians who test higher on average than Whites?

Is the Mongoloid smarter than the Caucasiod?

Another interesting thing to note is that 85 is just the test results AVERAGE. That means a significant percentage of the Black population has a higher IQ than a large percentage of the White population.

Then there is the matter of individuals. If I have a higher IQ than you does that make me your intellectual superior?

So many factors go into this that the Bell Curve's results alone and the racist conclusion that follows cannot be taken seriously. But ofcourse the results must mean something to those people. I wonder what they'd have to say for the studies quoted above, what do they mean?

When a racist has been thrashed with factors concerning IQ they switch to old debunked studies on brainsize. Let me help them out, this is a diagram of the latest results concerning human brainsize between different groups of people.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mansa Musa:
Did you mean the psyche of Black people is apathetic?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Mansa, IQ test are important and they are reasonably accurate. White IQ's are generally much higher than black IQs. that is not a 'racist' statement , it is just what the data shows. I have my own ideas as to why that is but its a complicated subject. I think you will see black girls do appreciably better that black boys as time goes by.

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One standard deviation is not "much higher". I've taken IQ tests my highest score so far was 140. That is over two standard deviations higher than the average White person. There is more distance between my IQ and the average White than there is between a White person and someone who is mentally handicapped. And again the studies above show different results Horemheb or did you forget that? As far as black girls are concerned they are pretty smart I guess we should be intimidated White boys included.

Black girls now outscore white boys on standarised tests in Britain.

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Mansa, IQ test are important and they are reasonably accurate. White IQ's are generally much higher than black IQs. that is not a 'racist' statement , it is just what the data shows. I have my own ideas as to why that is but its a complicated subject. I think you will see black girls do appreciably better that black boys as time goes by.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
IQ tests measuere the ability of an individual to think and reason in various ways. There are five basic types of intelligence. Example: a person with a 105 IQ could not get a physics graduate degree no matter how many hours of study they put in, the ability is simply not there.

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I have no doubt IQ tests are capable of analyzing learning styles however the approach you are taking to its abilities are not helpful at all it undermines human potential. There are many different types of IQ tests with many types of questions. An IQ test could ask questions completely irrelavant to physics and you could get enough wrong to score lower the 105. That doesn't mean you can't earn a graduate degree in physics that's B.S..

Plus people can score higher on IQ tests just like any other test. Nutrition and sleep can be a major factor. The tests are not concrete.

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
You are just spewing PC crap and that is why we will NEVER EVER solve the problem. You guys want to make this a social 'racist' issue and it is not.
The idea that a person of any race could get a physics degree with a 105 IQ is absurd.

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And why is that? Explain in details. Saying it does not make it so.

Which IQ test?

Take a look at the questions on some of these tests.
http://www.highiqsociety.org/flash/nonmembers/iqtests.htm

On the verbal one of the questions asked:

Leonardo da Vinci is to Renaissance as Voltaire is to:

• Reformation
  
• Romanticism
  
• Existentialism
  
• Post Modernism
  
• Enlightenment

Now obviously if you don't know who Voltaire is you probably aren't going to get the answer right.

Asking certain people enough questions like that could lower their score significantly.

What does that have to do with physics?

Intelligence is the application of knowledge, professor.

If you don't know something that isn't a reflection on your overall intelligence.

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
You are just spewing PC crap and that is why we will NEVER EVER solve the problem. You guys want to make this a social 'racist' issue and it is not.
The idea that a person of any race could get a physics degree with a 105 IQ is absurd.

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What IQ score in needed to get a degree in physics?

Do you have a chart with IQ scores and how the correlate to different professions?

Your logic reminds of the movie "Gattaca" except you use an IQ score instead of DNA in terming a person's lot in life.

At least everyone has a chance at becoming President of the United States since apparently you don’t need a high IQ for that job.

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Well TDog, why don't you run for President and save us all. Our current President has degrees from both Harvard and Yale and knows how to fly an F-16, can you match that? I think we learned during the last campaign that his college transcript was about the same as his opponent and unlike Al Gore he did not flunk out of graduate school twice.
A physcis degree, well, I'd say if a person was not at 130 or better that it would be difficult....ever try it?

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praise be to bush huh?

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Afrocentric...Bush's father has nothing to do with it. The fact is that you could not sit down and carry on a conversation with president Bush, Condi Rice or any of those people. That my friend, is just a fact.

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ALL I know is this...........

any claims you make about egypt (in my mind) will now be understood interms of your appreciation for Georg Bush's intelligence(LOL).............really says alot about you bro........

1. why would I want to sit down with and carry a conversation with an African American who studied everything except Africa...................."RUSSIAN"...................................
c'mon - man.........
2. as far as sitting with george..........

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
i don't have to say anything...the above post tells everyone here all they need to know.

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AGREED

Rice enrolled at the University of Denver at the age of 15, graduating at 19 with a bachelor's degree in political science (cum laude). She earned a master's degree at the University of Notre Dame and a doctorate degree from the University of Denver's Graduate School of International Studies. Both of her advanced degrees are also in political science................

WHAT HAS SHE EVER DONE FOR AFRICANS?
Rice served as a Hoover senior fellow from 1991 until 1993, when she was appointed provost of Stanford University. She held the position of provost for six years, during which time she served as the chief academic and budget officer of the university, before stepping down on July 1, 1999.

Rice first came to Stanford in 1981 as a fellow in the arms control and disarmament program. She is a tenured professor in the university's political science department and was a Hoover Institution national fellow from 1985 until 1986

russian connection........

she was director of Soviet and East European affairs with the National Security Council. She also was appointed special assistant to the president for national security affairs and senior director for Soviet affairs at the National Security Council under President George Bush

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
What is she supposed to do for africans? last time I looked she was Sec. of State for the United states. Did she change jobs?

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this is what many if not most of the best and brightest Africans do in America.....

they improve the quality of life not for blacks, but for "Americans"...LOL.......so now that you guys can vote....now that we allow your children to go to school with ours (if you have enough money)......now that we don't "officially" discriminate against you any more......now that you are done marching for equal rights with us......now you get the ultimate gift from us......you get to do what you have been doing for us all along.....now that you are all "educated"........now you get to make a choice with all those PHDs......you get to choose between putting that incredible mind of yours to work for your people (in lieu of what they have and what they have been through), or you can come to work for me helping me to improve my life and the quality of life of my people.......help to protect them..from the terrorists...I mean soviets.. Imean....toviets....I mean...well you know what I mean. So what's It gonna be condie.......you gonna waste all that knowledge of foreign relations on spear chuckers or kiss this pink glutius maximus for a living.........

--George Bush sr. - to condie in 1984 - just jokes but you get the point.......

given ridiculous dependant beggardly position of blacks in this country, it strikes me as odd that we hear so many complaints about the state of affairs in the black community.....

Imagine if we had,even, half of the most intelligent blacks in this country working on behalf of their own people.......outside the realm of politics......

If IQ tests were bias then why do Asians do better on them than Whites?

The fact that 55% of Black children are raised by single mothers who are just barely making it by, might have something to do with Black children not being well prepared in terms of education?

The facts are not racist.

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Afrocentrist, What many of you have not figured out yet, and people like Condi Rice HAVE figured out is that there really is no more 'you.' Blacks are apart of america just like everyone else. they will never again be effective with group action. Go out and make some money and let the other blacks worry about themselves. It'll have to be that way from now on.

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I would say that too if I were white!

fortuantely I am not. Nor do I believe, even for one moment, that your words of inclusiveness resonate throughout "america".

I can see why whites would want to move on.......
get a fresh start...
inalienable rights....right?

I liken this experience to a 5 year old having his or her mother murdered and then having the murderer and the accomplice "TELL YOU" (not ask)......tell you, that it's time to move on.....get over it....stop whining........the world has always been this way......

please

the only thing condie rice has figured out is that life is short........

quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:

Not everything Hor says is wrong, just most of it.

If IQ tests were bias then why do Asians do better on them than Whites?

The fact that 55% of Black children are raised by single mothers who are just barely making it by, might have something to do with Black children not being well prepared in terms of education?

The facts are not racist.

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every body is a dummy before they learn not to be.

intelligence has nothing to do with education. Furthermore IQ tests can not adjust for inherent feeling of inferiority reinforced by this society.......

show me some IQ test comparisons of of black white and asian harvard law students..........

You see, he is not connected to that...catch my point. They are NOT brothers any longer.

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Afro, I will never forget a scene that makes my point. A couple of years ago i was standing in line at a Burger King in Houton. If front of me has a hip hop type black guy with a CD player, his pants around his a$$, ear rings ...the whole thing...hat on backwards etc. he was very loud. Behind me I turned and saw a young black man in expensive slacks and a sport coat. His grooming was immaculate. He looked at the other black guy with a look of total disgust and rolled his eyes. It was like he was saying...."I'm connected to this?"

You see, he is not connected to that...catch my point. They are NOT brothers any longer.

[This message has been edited by Horemheb (edited 10 October 2005).]

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I'll analyze your words in a gentle way......

firstly, I think it's important to remember(that's why I have this newfound love for history) that this is rough and tumble shotgun marriage ; that of blacks and america. They usually never work out....... Unfortunately we are trapped because not only are we subject to the rape of our women and sodomizing of our men (figuratively of course-well litterally too) they burned all our houses down and forbade us from any memory of our homes and homeland the languages we spoke there.

so now that he doesn't have a culture or language.......now that he is "not welcome" even in the store where the brother bought his suit without money in hand........now that he is self actualized and knows that your culture is not his and recognizes it for what it is ....foreign culture..... he's got to hear this.......

a hip hop type black guy with a CD player, his pants around his a$$, ear rings.....

.....he is the closest thing in america to an African short of the real thing. he is the only one willing at his own expense not to lick white folks a$$e$ just to make them feel better about him........

why should he? he feels fine? you are the one with the problem white man.

not recognizing that regardless of what you may see as acceptable to your eyes, those two brothers are equally traumatized by the "European Experience"..... your attempt at seperating them based on the type of fabric they wrap themselves in means nothing; as evidenced by the fact that they were both standing in line at

BURGER KING

YOU LOSER

IMMACULATE.......boi I tell yah...some people......whew....

quote:

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Originally posted by AFROCENTRIST32:
every body is a dummy before they learn not to be.

intelligence has nothing to do with education. Furthermore IQ tests can not adjust for inherent feeling of inferiority reinforced by this society.......

show me some IQ test comparisons of of black white and asian harvard law students..........

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You are not actually countering what I said. Nor would discussing IQ tests of Harvard students counter my position. Humans are significantly different than animals in that they can create their own environments. If we say that the environment has a significant impact on IQ then the question that must be answered is what kind of environments are Black parents providing for their children? Are they providing the best kind of environment that they can within their control?

I think the fact that there's a serious problem with Black males not being fathers to their children is an issue that needs to be addressed. Also there's an issue with Black males not being the kind of husbands that Black females deserve. In general, America has a problem staying married and providing for their children's spritual (or emotional take your pick) needs.

Based on Jews having the highest IQ I would think everyone would read a Proverb a day to their kids.

Everyone is always talking about the Beethoven effect on IQ. I think Proverbs will work better.

[This message has been edited by osirion (edited 10 October 2005).]

quote:

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Originally posted by AFROCENTRIST32:
intelligence has nothing to do with education.

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I agree.

Did anyone read the article I quoted? If so, what are your thoughts?

quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:

You are not actually countering what I said. Nor would discussing IQ tests of Harvard students counter my position. Humans are significantly different than animals in that they can create their own environments. If we say that the environment has a significant impact on IQ then the question that must be answered is what kind of environments are Black parents providing for their children? Are they providing the best kind of environment that they can within their control?

I think the fact that there's a serious problem with Black males not being fathers to their children is an issue that needs to be addressed. Also there's an issue with Black males not being the kind of husbands that Black females deserve. In general, America has a problem staying married and providing for their children's spritual (or emotional take your pick) needs.

Based on Jews having the highest IQ I would think everyone would read a Proverb a day to their kids.

[This message has been edited by osirion (edited 10 October 2005).]

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I agree with one thing you said:

"You are not actually countering what I said"

"'ditto'"

IQ....

more dishonest scholarship with racial underpinnings...............

quote:

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Originally posted by tdogg:
I agree.

Did anyone read the article I quoted? If so, what are your thoughts?

[This message has been edited by tdogg (edited 10 October 2005).]

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YEAH no doubt......

quote:

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Originally posted by AFROCENTRIST32:
I agree with one thing you said:

"You are not actually countering what I said"

"'ditto'"

IQ....

more dishonest scholarship with racial underpinnings...............

what is the point in comparing(statistically) IQ among races.......
Race is a social construct.

---

You have a serious point there. Though I suppose there's still some value if efforts are made to make adjustments in the way children are raised.

Excuses really don't help.

quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:
No one said IQ had anything to do with education. I do agree it has a great deal of environmental relationships that have a factor. Question would then be, how can Blacks make their family environments better. For starters I say they should maitain the family unit better. I read a book once called the "Mark of Slavery" and it detailed the matriarchial family unit of Blacks and how slavery created these roles. It went on to discuss why Black Females are actually better assimilated into American business society than Black Males and why. Not sure I buy all of it but certainly it did highlight the need for Black Males change their current role of womanizing and uphold the traditional role of the head of the household.

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I think you should give "black" males more credit. I don't know about where you live in the US, but there are a lot of "black" males taking care of their families.

In my industry, IT, there are a lot of "black" males doing very well. You just don't here about it.

There is a 'truth' to your assertion but slavery did not create the matriarchial role. It has always been there. Black women by themselves are seen as less threatening in isolation than black males because of the acculturation and learning behaviours. They have to take care of children so they have sacrified to that extent.

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
No one said IQ had anything to do with education. I do agree it has a great deal of environmental relationships that have a factor. Question would then be, how can Blacks make their family environments better. For starters I say they should maitain the family unit better. I read a book once called the "Mark of Slavery" and it detailed the matriarchial family unit of Blacks and how slavery created these roles. It went on to discuss why Black Females are actually better assimilated into American business society than Black Males and why. Not sure I buy all of it but certainly it did highlight the need for Black Males change their current role of womanizing and uphold the traditional role of the head of the household.

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I don't disagree with you in this regard........except the extent to which you think there is a tradition of any meaningful type relative to roles in the household.........I say......what household..........ask yourself what role has this mythological household really ever had..........has it been as beneficial as we think? maybe ,,,,,maybe not...I think we give it too much credit........

quote:

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Originally posted by AFROCENTRIST32:

show me some IQ test comparisons of of black white and asian harvard law students..........

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I totally agree with this. Take the average IQ of students in the top colleges in the country with similar family units and upbringing and if the scores are significantly different THEN I will give race and IQ comparisons more credence.

The fact is that if you want to say that there is a genetic basis for IQ you must eliminate the bulk of the enviromental factors. Also, something you may be overlooking Osirion is that Asian minorities in countries such as Japan do not do as well as the Japanese on these types of tests. Historical disenfranchisement is a major factor in all elements of society.

It isn't that IQ tests are biased, it is that many factors go into the results of such a population, I think Asians do better than Whites because of stricter discipline towards education, that is a cultural factor.

I suggest anyone intereted in the subject of race and society listen to this radio program between White Nationalist Jared Taylor and anti-racist Tim Wise.

Audio of Wise vs. Taylor Debate

quote:

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Originally posted by tdogg:
I think you should give "black" males more credit. I don't know about where you live in the US, but there are a lot of "black" males taking care of their families.

In my industry, IT, there are a lot of "black" males doing very well. You just don't here about it.

I'm not saying there aren't any problems, but don't believe the hype.

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Sorry, I really don't mean to offend anyone. I am certainly not implying that this is true for Black males in general. I am only saying that the statistical facts do shed light on a issue that I think should be addressed.

From the reports I have seen, our Black children need fathers that stay and provide emotional support and guidance.

There's room for improvement.

Horemheb, I think it would be an error to judge somebody just because they happen to wear ''urban'' attire. Would you feel the same way if you say white kids with their hair dyed green with piercing all over their face? Just curious because you should not assume that everybody which such apperance is necessarily anti-social criminals such as drug dealers or gang members.

Lots of white children from even suburbian areas like to dress like that.

Alot of the fashion you see emulated in modern hip-hop culture goes a long way back to even jazz muscians. People like Count Basie were rolling one pant leg up well before such was considered fashinable or gang related.

quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:

Sorry, I really don't mean to offend anyone. I am certainly not implying that this is true for Black males in general. I am only saying that the statistical facts do shed light on a issue that I think should be addressed.

From the reports I have seen, our Black children need fathers that stay and provide emotional support and guidance.

There's room for improvement.

[This message has been edited by osirion (edited 10 October 2005).]

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always

and

I'm not big on excuses. But, be wary of statistics in the context of African American quality of life. "Every" single statistic reflecting something negative about the African american experience can be connected, if one is to be completely objective, to some other statistic making an excuse for it. there are very aggravating factors in most statistics related to poor blacks (and blacks in general) in this country..........just my opinion but..... most(problems) have to do with our reluctance to assimilate. It will happen and our situation will improve as ghettos begin to shrink and thin out.......gentrification is painful but there is a lot to be gained from moving out of the projects and ghettos of america..........resources personal and public play a major role in family and extended family prosperity..........another important thing to think about is starting point......drugs...gang violence.....alcohol
banking.....nonviolent criminal records.......tax based public school funding..........lots of things go into creating each and every statistic we complain about .........(I just said no excuses and here I go with excuses)........the excuses are just hard to get around cause they're there. we've never had a chance to live without all these problems ......at least not since I've been alive in this world.

and then we have some sort of wierd thing where we are made to feel as though we under achieve because so many others would love to have "problems" like ours........
so because foreigners can come here and succeed we are seen as culturally inept.......
when in fact our culture is manufactured to begin with........
all the mal-adapted mal-formed behaviors of blacks in this country like it or not are a reflection of our collective experiences here; aggrivated by the previously mentioned excuses.

every body in the world wants to come here to make a better life for themselves.
they come and what happens ......they don't assimilate.................
they simulate..............whiteness
even with respect to their interaction with the blacks ....not recognizing that it is we who paved the road that they drove in on...........

OK THAT WAS a bit harsh but it's hard to see your people struggle without taking aim at someone........

foreigners should not be the target ....so I humbly apologize....

you feel my pain though....no?

[This message has been edited by AFROCENTRIST32 (edited 10 October 2005).]

I also think that some aspects of the black strugle in america is self inflicted to as Bill Cosby so emotionally and lovingly pointed out. Like we did in the bahamas and other caribbean nations, black americans must take their future in their hands. No one will bail you out except you. We must teach our children the DISCIPLINE to succeed and persevere in life. Life is tough (especially if you are non- white in america) but so what!

Retrospectively I see such major movement of blacks to join the dominant culture in the 50's 60's and even 70's. But today its the very opposite. I don't know where its going but I'm sure it has a positive purpose in history. Time will tell! Why do you guys think this is?

BTW Horemheb my IQ is 136. I guess I'm the exception to the rule even though IQ tests are meaningless. They remind me of MCAT and USMLE. You can know all the information and still fail or not do well because you need to know how to take the exam. You need to know how to think like the people who write the exams. Ask any medical student and they will tell you the same thing about USMLE and MCATs. I believe language plays the biggest role in this difference between black and whites. We need to give our kids the gift of great language and comprehension SKILL (meaning it is developed).

quote:

---

Originally posted by AFROCENTRIST32:

always

and

I'm not big on excuses. But, be wary of statistics in the context of African American quality of life. "Every" single statistic reflecting something negative about the African american experience can be connected, if one is to be completely objective, to some other statistic making an excuse for it. there are very aggravating factors in most statistics related to poor blacks (and blacks in general) in this country..........just my opinion but..... most(problems) have to do with our reluctance to assimilate. It will happen and our situation will improve as ghettos begin to shrink and thin out.......gentrification is painful but there is a lot to be gained from moving out of the projects and ghettos of america..........resources personal and public play a major role in family and extended family prosperity..........another important thing to think about is starting point......drugs...gang violence.....alcohol
banking.....nonviolent criminal records.......tax based public school funding..........lots of things go into creating each and every statistic we complain about .........(I just said no excuses and here I go with excuses)........the excuses are just hard to get around cause they're there. we've never had a chance to live without all these problems ......at least not since I've been alive in this world.

and then we have some sort of wierd thing where we are made to feel as though we under achieve because so many others would love to have "problems" like ours........
so because foreigners can come here and succeed we are seen as culturally inept.......
when in fact our culture is manufactured to begin with........
all the mal-adapted mal-formed behaviors of blacks in this country like it or not are a reflection of our collective experiences here; aggrivated by the previously mentioned excuses.

every body in the world wants to come here to make a better life for themselves.
they come and what happens ......they don't assimilate.................
they simulate..............whiteness
even with respect to their interaction with the blacks ....not recognizing that it is we who paved the road that they drove in on...........

OK THAT WAS a bit harsh but it's hard to see your people struggle without taking aim at someone........

foreigners should not be the target ....so I humbly apologize....

you feel my pain though....no?

[This message has been edited by AFROCENTRIST32 (edited 10 October 2005).]

[This message has been edited by AFROCENTRIST32 (edited 10 October 2005).]

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IQ and Asians

Obviously a huge chunk of IQ scores derives from the culture itself and the "education" provided by the cultural environment from day one after birth.

But the point about Asians and IQ is a bit off. The 2 largest populations in Asia are China and India. Note that the average IQ of India is 81. Pakistan is also 81. China scores 100--though some tests put China at 95. Nepal(Asia) scores 78, Afghanistan scores 83 and Iran scores 84. Saudi Arabia with all those privileges scores 83 and Quatar scores 78. Iraq and Syria score 87, etc., etc. AND THESE ARE ALL ASIAN COUNTRIES!

Southern Europeans have traditionally scored lower than Northern Europeans--with Spain scoring 87(Lynn 1978)etc.

By the way the score of Israel--the Jewish state--is 94.

Note that re parenting, very large numbers of Swedes are born out of wedlock. The stake picks up the child rearing tab. And the Swedish IQ is 101-on average.

quote:

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Originally posted by lamin:
To Osirion:

IQ and Asians

Obviously a huge chunk of IQ scores derives from the culture itself and the "education" provided by the cultural environment from day one after birth.

But the point about Asians and IQ is a bit off. The 2 largest populations in Asia are China and India. Note that the average IQ of India is 81. Pakistan is also 81. China scores 100--though some tests put China at 95. Nepal(Asia) scores 78, Afghanistan scores 83 and Iran scores 84. Saudi Arabia with all those privileges scores 83 and Quatar scores 78. Iraq and Syria score 87, etc., etc. AND THESE ARE ALL ASIAN COUNTRIES!

Southern Europeans have traditionally scored lower than Northern Europeans--with Spain scoring 87(Lynn 1978)etc.

By the way the score of Israel--the Jewish state--is 94.

Note that re parenting, very large numbers of Swedes are born out of wedlock. The stake picks up the child rearing tab. And the Swedish IQ is 101-on average.

Comments?

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I believe a German told me once, though I have never taken the time to actually review the source, that Blacks score higher on IQ tests in Germany than do whites on an average. Again, I am not talking about genetics at all. I am referring to America and particularly to Black Americans. I am somewhat an outsider, though I am multiracial, I have o idea what it is to be socially Black. From my point of view I see an alarming cultural trend in Black America that is to me anti-family. Far too much promotion of sensuality rather than spirtuality. I cannot see how this is good for Black children in America. However, I do realize that hedonism is common throughout the world. I guess I am trying to say that if statistics shows that a certain section of the population is doing poorely then it might be benefetial to truly examine the issue rather than immeadiately claim racism.

Again:

Percentage of children (by race) living in two-parent households in 1998:

White: 74%
Black: 36%
Hispanic: 64%

Again, the facts are not racist. Divorce has nothing to do with the so called "Evil Whitey". Illegitemate children has nothing to do with "Evil Whitey". A musical culture of Ganster rap that encourages an attitude of anti-family and anit-social norms has nothing to do with "Evil Whitey"!

I have a Black friend from High School that I lost track of for more than a decade. I met him recently. Still living at home with Mod and Dad. You know he was proud to tell me that he has a girl that pays him money. He was proud to tell me that she was good in bed and other crude things. He was proud of these things! I didn't understand but then I listen to some of this G-rap and I do understand. Proud to abuse women and to use them like objects. Proud to not be earning money for your family. Proud to dishonor your women.

Far from Jewish traditions and value systems. Is Evil Whitey to be blamed? I suppose if the Devil is White this might be true. The Angel of Light, the Angel of Music, the father of Lies. Perhaps what is to be blamed is the flesh of man and the pride of life.

September 2005

The Inequality Taboo

Charles Murray

quote:

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It has been known for many years that the obvious environmental factors such as income, parental occupation, and schools explain only part of the absolute black-white difference and none of the relative difference. Black and white students from affluent neighborhoods are separated by as large a proportional gap as are blacks and whites from poor neighborhoods.45

[...]

J. Philippe Rushton and Arthur Jensen co-authored a 60-page article entitled “Thirty Years of Research on Race Differences in Cognitive Ability.”51 It incorporates studies of East Asians as well as blacks and whites and concludes that the source of the black-white-Asian difference is 50- to 80-percent genetic. [...] Rushton and Jensen base their conclusion on ten categories of evidence that are consistent with a model in which both environment and genes cause the black-white difference and inconsistent with a model that requires no genetic contribution.53

[...]

When you compare black and white mean scores on a battery of subtests, you do not find a uniform set of differences; nor do you find a random assortment. The size of the difference varies systematically by type of subtest. Asked to predict which subtests show the largest difference, most people will think first of ones that have the most cultural content and are the most sensitive to good schooling. But this natural expectation is wrong. Some of the largest differences are found on subtests that have little or no cultural content, such as ones based on abstract designs.

As long ago as 1927, Charles Spearman, the pioneer psychometrician who discovered g, proposed a hypothesis to explain the pattern: the size of the black-white difference would be “most marked in just those [subtests] which are known to be saturated with g.”58 In other words, Spearman conjectured that the black-white difference would be greatest on tests that were the purest measures of intelligence, as opposed to tests of knowledge or memory.

A concrete example illustrates how Spearman’s hypothesis works. Two items in the Wechsler and Stanford-Binet IQ tests are known as “forward digit span” and “backward digit span.” In the forward version, the subject repeats a random sequence of one-digit numbers given by the examiner, starting with two digits and adding another with each iteration. The subject’s score is the number of digits that he can repeat without error on two consecutive trials. Digits-backward works exactly the same way except that the digits must be repeated in the opposite order.

Digits-backward is much more g-loaded than digits-forward. Try it yourself and you will see why. Digits-forward is a straightforward matter of short-term memory. Digits-backward makes your brain work much harder.59

The black-white difference in digits-backward is about twice as large as the difference in digits-forward.60 It is a clean example of an effect that resists cultural explanation. It cannot be explained by differential educational attainment, income, or any other socioeconomic factor. Parenting style is irrelevant. Reluctance to “act white” is irrelevant. Motivation is irrelevant. There is no way that any of these variables could systematically encourage black performance in digits-forward while depressing it in digits-backward in the same test at the same time with the same examiner in the same setting.61

[ . . . ]

So Spearman’s basic conjecture was correct—the size of the black-white difference and g-loadings are correlated—and g represents a biologically grounded and highly heritable cognitive resource. When those two observations are put together, a number of characteristics of the black-white difference become predictable, correspond with phenomena we have observed in data, and give us reason to think that not much will change in the years to come.70

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quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

I believe a German told me once, though I have never taken the time to actually review the source, that Blacks score higher on IQ tests in Germany than do whites on an average. Again, I am not talking about genetics at all. I am referring to America and particularly to Black Americans. I am somewhat an outsider, though I am multiracial, I have o idea what it is to be socially Black. From my point of view I see an alarming cultural trend in Black America that is to me anti-family. Far too much promotion of sensuality rather than spirtuality. I cannot see how this is good for Black children in America. However, I do realize that hedonism is common throughout the world. I guess I am trying to say that if statistics shows that a certain section of the population is doing poorely then it might be benefetial to truly examine the issue rather than immeadiately claim racism.

Again:

Percentage of children (by race) living in two-parent households in 1998:

White: 74%
Black: 36%
Hispanic: 64%

Again, the facts are not racist. Divorce has nothing to do with the so called "Evil Whitey". Illegitemate children has nothing to do with "Evil Whitey". A musical culture of Ganster rap that encourages an attitude of anti-family and anit-social norms has nothing to do with "Evil Whitey"!

I have a Black friend from High School that I lost track of for more than a decade. I met him recently. Still living at home with Mod and Dad. You know he was proud to tell me that he has a girl that pays him money. He was proud to tell me that she was good in bed and other crude things. He was proud of these things! I didn't understand but then I listen to some of this G-rap and I do understand. Proud to abuse women and to use them like objects. Proud to not be earning money for your family. Proud to dishonor your women.

Far from Jewish traditions and value systems. Is Evil Whitey to be blamed? I suppose if the Devil is White this might be true. The Angel of Light, the Angel of Music, the father of Lies. Perhaps what is to be blamed is the flesh of man and the pride of life.

[This message has been edited by osirion (edited 11 October 2005).]

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I know white guys just like your one "black" friend.

Please do not act like you have such an understanding of African-American culture. Just because you have “one” friend who acts a certain way or the media portrays us in a bad light, it doesn’t mean that’s how all African-Americans act. In order to understand why certain African-Americans are a certain way you must study the history of African-American in the US. You can’t understand the present without knowing the past.

I guess I see the glass half full while people like you see it as half empty. Compared to 20 years ago I think African-Americans have definitely gone forward and not back. Slowly, but surely African-Americans are closing the gap. Considering that everyone else in America has had a head start, I think were making progress.