The term is even in the dictionary take it up with them.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=eurocentrist

Your contention that no one is a Eurocentrist is just your personal opinion.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Mansa, As a point of information, there is no such thing as a Eurocentric. a person is either a historian or they are not. There is only one definition.

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there may not be a such thing as eurocentrism, but there sure is a such thing as delusion.

eurocentrism (hiding under the guise of conservatism) is a disease of denial dishonesty and falsification as it relates to history........

some historians are honest and forthright....true

But, many suffer from exposure to systems of thinking forged durning slavery and colonization. Many are unwilling to look at bias in scholarship as a problem. There is no answer to the question of why so many figurenes and statues of ancient egypt have their noses broken or chipped away.
Any attempts at addressing these issues are met with hostility and anger; and most of the blacks examining the same history and artifacts were encouraged not to buck the trend - but were unable to lie in the face of such overwhelming physical evidence.

so who are we to believe?

Horemheb, I must disagree with you. If there are supposed Afrocentrics then there are Eurocentrics. Everything in life has a spectrum. Right and Wrong. Left and Right. Up and down. White and Black. ect...... It's basically what the Egyptians belief in opposites.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Oh, I see, in other words historians who agree with your politics are good and others are not?

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nope.....

has nothing to do with politics.........

just put all the physical evidence on the table and lets go from there...

lets get geneticist of all persuasions to work on the markers and patterns of migration.......

lets take seriously "ALL" (including yours) theories of origin and put them to the test.......

lets examine text and oral tradition, geographical and botanical evidence......

and then approach it court style.......

tell me that with all of the above, one, such as myself, could not establish reasonable doubt about the validity of white or Euroasiatic Egypt........

Well as far as the destoyed artifacts or broken off noses I can say that alot of it was due to Coptic Christians during the Greco-Roman period and Arab Muslims during the Medieval period. The Ottoman Turks would also grind up temples and tombs into salt peter.

I can verify that some early Egyptologist did alter artifacts to make them look more European. Such as the case with Teti-Sheri.

In the same essay by Manu Ampin he does cite a source by Vivian Davies:

For details see: Mark Jones, ed., Fake: The Art of Deception (1990), pp. 160, 162. The ?Tetisheri? statue was first suspected to be a forgery in 1984 by Mr. W.V. Davies, Keeper of Egyptian Antiquities at the British Museum. See Davies, British Museum Occasional Paper (no. 36, 1984)

Also let me point out that there is one myth I commonly hear repeated. Many claim that Napolean blew off the nose of the Sphinx. This is not true. According to al-Maqrizi the nose of the Sphinx was knocked off by a deranged Sufi that was lynched by the Egyptian population.

I find it interesting and disutrbing that there is relaible info for the deliberate racial defacing of artifacts.

What of Nefertiti. I hear the bust was found in a work shop along with many other unfinished busts with her name on them such as this one.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Oh, I see, in other words historians who agree with your politics are good and others are not?

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Horemheb, can't the same be said of you? You don't seem very objective and you think people shouldn't question historians, anthropologist, etc.

Where would the world be if humans didn't question those who came before them? Being a so-called “professor” you should know this very well. Sometimes you have to think outside the box. This is the only way for scientific disciplines are going to advance.

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Originally posted by Doug M:
Mansa,

Firstly, the items attributed to Nefertiti, found in a workshop and bought from some DEALER in Egypt, as opposed to actually DUG UP in an expedition, does NOT have her name on it. Therefore, there is no WAY to definitively say that it IS how Nefertiti looked. Secondly, there are MANY different heads supposedly from the same workshop, and the ALL look different. Case in point, the picture you posted shows signs of BROWN paint if I am not mistaken (unless it is a photographic issue). But, more importantly than that, the depictions of Nefertiti that actually WERE dug up from Tel Amarna, with her NAME on it bear NO resemblance to the ones from the workshop. So, if you are going to present the evidence, present ALL of it and don't cherry pick those pieces that YOU think prove your point.

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My "point"? What are you insinuating Doug?

I'm quite sure that I covered the gist of what you are saying as explanations for this bust. Perhaps you did not understand the context of the thread. This thread is about whether or not the explanations for the possibility of these images not being authentic hold any validity. How are you going to ask me to present ALL the evidence? Didn't it ever occur to you that I don't have all the evidence and I created the thread for others to present their evidence?

As far as these other images with her name on them I have come across images that fit that description as well as a rebuttle for their inaccuracy.

Here is the White Supremacist's explanation for such an image.
http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/nefer.htm

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It is worth noting that some images of Nefertiti are grossly distorted, as was the style of El-Amarna and Akhenaton, her husband, who was known as the heretic king. Hence, there are depictions of Nefertiti which show her as follows:

Portraits such as this are however obviously artistic distortions, as no person could actually have a skull shape such as this!

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Though we all know what nut-jobs those people were I've heard the same thing said about Ahknaten. It is logical to think that Nefertiti's wall paintings were more so artistic convention, though I think the racist's contention that Nerfertiti must have been white because she was described as being "fair of face" is absurd, considering that being "fair" could just as easily and in fact more than likely mean beautiful rather than light-skinned.

In the close-up image I provided in the first post Nefertiti's bust does look like it has been whithered somewhat, the skin is not a sold beige it is a bit patchy. Its darker in some places, lighter in others and in some parts there is no paint at all such as on her ear and eye which appears to be broken off. Her crown also shows a bit of wear.

These Egyptian soldiers also show obvious signs of wear. Almost all of their heads which you can clearly see were once jet black afros are now White and their skin all of which are brown are faded in some areas.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
mansa, If you see a van pull up in front of your house and a group of guys wearing white coats get out, you better run.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Because the theory you have put forward is insane. This idea that evil white egyptologist are changing art is so goofey that it borders on real mental illness.
As I told TDog, you guys go to far and lose your credibility.
Thought does the same thing with his crazy ideas about the Greeks.

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I'm only analyzing such claims. I stated at the beginning of the thread that I do not believe in a mass conspracyof lies by Egyptologists to distort the imagery or did both you and Doug not read that part?

Ausar gave thoughful insight into the reality of such claims.

I doubt the existence of a greater conspiracy but is it possible that someone unlreated to Egyptologists forged statues such as "Rahotep and Nofret" and that such images were put on display not knowing that the display was fake. It seems plausible.

Is it possible that some musuems altered images to make them more presentable to a European audience who at the time may have been uncomfortable glorifying the images of African kings? Its plausible.

The purpose of the thread is to analyze such claims and see if there is really some truth to them and if there is how much is true and how much is not.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
First of all I never said that Egypt was not an African civilization, never said it was either. Anyone with half a brain can see that Ancient Egypt straddles two areas of the globe and is obviously influenced by both. A little moderation is in order, wouldn't you say? I'm sure Ausar would agree with that as well.
As for rahotep, the statue is not fake.

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Maybe I misread your post, but I now see you are trying to sort out the evidence.

The problem here is that you have to take the evidence on a case by case, artifact by artifact basis. For example, is the Berlin bust authentic? That is a legitimate question, seeing as how it was purchased from a dealer as opposed to actually dug up by an archaeologist. Most museums would display such artifacts obtained that way with a disclaimer that puts it into perspective such as "we do not know if this is an authentic portrait, since it was obtained....". I have seen such disclaimers on many statues frome Greece and Rome. All of which points out the REAL issue here, which is that Egyptologists seem to want to allow artifacts to be presented and make statements about the population of ancient Egypt, without properly putting all the evidence into context. Therefore, many continue to consciously or unconsciously pick out those items which portray the ancient Egypt they want to see. Nefertiti's bust is a perfect example of this, and it is not necessarily the case that it really IS an authentic Egyptian relic, but I have no way of proving it.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Afro, We have a nice bed for you in the mental ward at the Texas Medical Center. They might be able to help you get rid of those demons that are screwing up your brain.

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ok bad joke ........

the point is that at least there is consistency among those of us who believe that egypt is a child of africa and africans.........

those who believe otherwise produce all types of nefarious schemes to separate it from the continent; they make all sorts of claims about it being this great melting pot - which it eventually became........

but we know for a fact that the only people ancient egyptians held in high regard were those closest to them.......those from the interior of Africa; regardless of how they looked

they transport current ideas about race and migration back in time.......comparing a country of 50 some odd million to a country of maybe 1.5 million during antiquity.

none of the trite racist metaphors inaccurately describing ancient egyptians fit..........the lengths gone to, to disprove its black African beginnings are unmatched in any other academic arena......

In any and all other fields of research as with law, when you have so much evidence pointing to truth beyond a reasonable doubt, you go with what is reasonable; not what is convenient. The cover up of critical relevant information in this matter has been and continues to be commonplace...........

so it would seem that you "friend" are the one in need of mental help........
you guys are so truamatized by the realization that most of your accomplishments are achieved in the shadow of Africa's past...................

Ancient Egyptians are East African people and they would have had NARROW noses. This is what we would expect to see depicted in their art. Why would White people, in order to take ownership of Egyptian history, deface art work in such a way that it would remove the most Caucasian looking feature of East African people?

I think we are looking at unintentional damage done by looters or we are looking at intentional damage done by religious or political opponents to what the objects represented. I do think there was art intentionally destroyed by Europeans due to race envy, but very little.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Afro...I'm sorry pal, you are as looney as a march hare. You live in a dream world of your own creation. have fun in there.

[This message has been edited by Horemheb (edited 12 October 2005).]

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IF you say so........it must be true.....

NOT

I enjoy discussing these issues with like minded people........

I can't understand why that bothers you so.
I'm no teacher
no egyptologist
no anthropologist
no archaeologist
no geneticist

but I am a scientist.....(Avery Dennison)
my opinions are a compilation of all the things I've read heard seen and experienced
my conclusions are not emotional or biased........most of what I've read about egypt and Africa in general is written by white authors.....very general and minimal, admittedly, is my knowledge of ancient Africa. However I do not believe that I have, if at all, been lead very far astray about most of what I've learned.

How is it that you've come to be such an authority on ancient Egypt or the integrity of archaeologists over the past 200 years.
How can you be sure you aren't the looney one.........?

I'll answer for you......

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Originally posted by osirion:

II am confused about the theories of conspiracies being presented. First of all, East Africans have a more Caucasian appearance on the average due to their narrow nose. Everyone knows this to be a reality of the difference between Central and East Africans. If you go to East Africa you will see people, on an average, with features that are more elongated and narrow.

Ancient Egyptians are East African people and they would have had NARROW noses. This is what we would expect to see depicted in their art. Why would White people, in order to take ownership of Egyptian history, deface art work in such a way that it would remove the most Caucasian looking feature of East African people?

I think we are looking at unintentional damage done by looters or we are looking at intentional damage done by religious or political opponents to what the objects represented. I do think there was art intentionally destroyed by Europeans due to race envy, but very little.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
You were doing great until you screwed it all up with that last line. More Koolaide on the way.

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That's what your types do.......t's very defeatist. You forgot to call me a name.

I (don't know how I did) forgot you were a bush supportun card carryun Republicun

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

whatever.

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From Afrocentrist2:

That's what your types do.......t's very defeatist. You forgot to call me a name.

I (don't know how I did) forgot you were a bush supportun card carryun Republicun

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

whatever.

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I'm a conservative Republican and you don't see me acting like Hor so don't generalize about political groups.

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Originally posted by AFROCENTRIST32:

Are we to assume that whites are the only xenophobes on the planet. I've heard plenty of theories about Arabs and quote"NORTH AFRICANS"unquote with respect to their attempts to dissociate themselves from darker more quote"NEGROID"unquote Africans.

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Actually I use to think like you until I really considered the matter. My first impressions was that the Mamelukes did this since they were rather racist. However, the defacing I have seen does not show a pattern of racial bigotry. I see damage to Negroid and Caucasoid looking artifacts equally. The very picture you show, if the nose was still present, it would be a rather Caucasian looking Nose which really doesn't mean anything, East Africans have this appearance and they are STILL BLACK. They simply have a few adaptations that are different than Central Africans.

This is still a Black person!

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Originally posted by ausar:

Osirion, the person who wrote the website,Manu Ampin, believes that the ancient Egyptians looked like Western Africans.

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Well, it depends on what you mean by "looked like West Africans", since there isn't a definitive "West African" phenotype. Where did Ampim say this? We know for a fact that folks, who have been cranio skeletally linked to Niger-Congo speakers [Brace et al.], have been found in the region. And I suspect that Angel too, was thinking of stereotypical "negro" traits, when he referred to "Negroid traits" from "Nubia".

I just don't get the Anit-Afrocentrics position. I understand the Afrocentrics go to far but you all are quite aware of the social definition of Black that you accept knowing that your argument against a Black Egypt is a complete double standard!

How can this be Black:

And this not be Black:

And lets not even get into the race classification of the founder of Afrocentrism!

Between the overexaggerating Afrocentrics and the double-minded and double standard Eurocentrics - there are people like me.

AE was Black in an American sense of Black. Phenotype classification would be diversely classified but primarily predominantly neither Black or White (primarily in between) but genetically related to people that are considered Black ( PN2 clade ) East African people by every American standard I have known.

W.E. Dubois was not the founder nor the person who coined Afrocentrism. This was done by Molefi Assante during the 80's.

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Originally posted by osirion:
Actually I use to think like you until I really considered the matter. My first impressions was that the Mamelukes did this since they were rather racist. However, the defacing I have seen does not show a pattern of racial bigotry. I see damage to Negroid and Caucasoid looking artifacts equally. The very picture you show, if the nose was still present, it would be a rather Caucasian looking Nose which really doesn't mean anything, East Africans have this appearance and they are STILL BLACK. They simply have a few adaptations that are different than Central Africans.

This is still a Black person!

In fact he looks a lot like my Ethiopian Grandfather, except he was much darker.

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Another twist to the discussion is the way how National Geographic persistently represents the AEs as 3 shades lighter than the way they(AEs) represented themselves, the way the forensic experts fleshed out the TUT skull for modern consumption and the way the Berlin Nefertiti has been presented as authentic.

It may just be an unconscious thing--if one wants to err on the side of charity. Think of all those "race" a nd "gender" tests done in the U.S. Example: a group of essays purportedly written by female students were graded lower than when the same essays were said to be written by male students. And don't forget all those job and apartment vacancy traps set for those who hire or rent.

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Originally posted by ausar:

W.E. Dubois was not the founder nor the person who coined Afrocentrism. This was done by Molefi Assante during the 80's.

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VERY TRUE

but, Dubois was the first of the English speaking blacks that I've ever read about who spoke openly about the greatness of blacks both hear and abroad..........it was mostly reading about him and reading some of his works which inspired me as a child to take pride in Africa and Blacks in general.

As far as this talk of the pointlessness of defacing the nose of an elongated East African, since the nose is gone it is quite plausible that if true it was a broader nose than average. Arthur Kemp, the White Supremacist who wrote the Nordic Desert Empire page tries to pass off the narrowest nosed Pharonic images as Whites with the motto that "If it is not Negroid it must be White".

I'd like to note that even the elongated statues differ from the overtly narrow noses of Greek, Roman and Assyrian statues. If Nefertiti's bust were painted a medium brown she'd be viewed by most people in the know as an African Queen since her features are perfectly within the proportions of East Africans.

I only bring up the defaced art because that is a common accusation and because in my quest for images of the Pharaohs on unbelievable high number of images seemed to have bring nose and sometimes lips and that was the ONLY thing that was broken as if it were intentional.

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Originally posted by Doug M:
Mansa,

Firstly, the items attributed to Nefertiti, found in a workshop and bought from some DEALER in Egypt, as opposed to actually DUG UP in an expedition, does NOT have her name on it. Therefore, there is no WAY to definitively say that it IS how Nefertiti looked. Secondly, there are MANY different heads supposedly from the same workshop, and the ALL look different. Case in point, the picture you posted shows signs of BROWN paint if I am not mistaken (unless it is a photographic issue). But, more importantly than that, the depictions of Nefertiti that actually WERE dug up from Tel Amarna, with her NAME on it bear NO resemblance to the ones from the workshop. So, if you are going to present the evidence, present ALL of it and don't cherry pick those pieces that YOU think prove your point.

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You're right, I've never heard anything about the Nefertiti bust being dug up either...which is why a lot of people say it's a fake.

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Originally posted by ausar:

W.E. Dubois was not the founder nor the person who coined Afrocentrism. This was done by Molefi Assante during the 80's.

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The points made by Afrocentrics were made by WEB Dubois decades before the term was coined.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Because the theory you have put forward is insane. This idea that evil white egyptologist are changing art is so goofey that it borders on real mental illness.

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Such a theory is not impossible; it should be known however that vandalism was done on countless Egyptian works but by native Egyptians who were Muslims or Christians and wanted to rid themselves of pagan stuff.

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
First of all I never said that Egypt was not an African civilization, never said it was either. Anyone with half a brain can see that Ancient Egypt straddles two areas of the globe and is obviously influenced by both. A little moderation is in order, wouldn't you say? I'm sure Ausar would agree with that as well...

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LOL Egypt does not "straddle" two areas of the globe. It is totally in Africa with the exception of the Sinai area. But we all know the main center of culture was not in Sinai but in the Nile Valley. Everything about Egyptian culture is black African and you would know this if you even had a slight knowledge about African culture. On the other hand, Egypt had very little in common with the Near-East culturally, which is why the "straddle" thing seems to be inaccurate a view.

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:

First of all I never said that Egypt was not an African civilization,

never said it was either. Anyone with half a brain can see that Ancient Egypt straddles two areas of the globe and is obviously influenced by both. A little moderation is in order, wouldn't you say? I'm sure Ausar would agree with that as well.
As for rahotep, the statue is not fake.

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[B]First of all I never said that Egypt was not an African civilization,

YOU LYING ASS BASTARD!!!!!WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR "NORTH AFRICAN CAUCAZOIDS?????????

Will someone please find the fruit truck this fool fell off of so we can put him right back on it!!