quote:
"As our data show, the people of the Horn of Africa are craniofacially less distinct from a spectrum of samples marginally including South Asia and running all the way from the Middle East to northwest Europe than they are to any group in sub-Saharan Africa." (Brace et al., 1993, p. 19)
Hence, Brace's own description of his craniometric plot supports my interpretation of the data -- namely that Somalis show greater affinities with Eurasians than with Sub-Saharans, and are not part of any "African cluster".
Now let's recall what he said in his e-mail reply to Charlie Bass, in answer to the question of whether "elongated" morphology indicates Eurasian admixture:
quote:
"As I see it, the appearances of the Upper Nile Valley and Horn people has little if anything to do with admixtures and much the result of in situ circumstances. The elongation of the nose is clearly a climate-induced phenomenon and takes a long time to manifest itself. The same thing is true for the reduction in tooth size which markedly distinguishes those people form the Niger-Congo people." (C. L. Brace, private correspondence)
So after establishing that Horn people resemble Europeans and Middle Easterners (Caucasoids), he rejects the idea that they've acquired their appearance through admixture from these groups, maintaining instead that "elongated" morphology is native to East Africa. He then ends by reconfirming the distinctiveness of Horn people from Niger-Congo people (Negroids).
His inescapable conclusion is therefore that indigenous East Africans resemble Caucasoids and not Negroids.
Of course, that's exactly what I've been saying all these months. It's what Dienekes has been saying all along. It's what Coon and other "outdated" anthropologists were observing when they postulated a Mediterranean presence in East Africa. And now, all have been vindicated by a modern source whom the Afronuts themselves trust and reference.
And indigenous West Africans resembling South East Asian mogoloids and not negroids.
Looks like the negroid pool is fast becoming an empty set.
So "negroids" are like Plato's ideal types existing in some far off world of the forms but not in reality.
This is sheer idealism and easily dismissed.
quote:
Originally posted by Evil Euro:
His inescapable conclusion is therefore that indigenous East Africans resemble Caucasoids and not Negroids.[/B]
Shouldn't it be, so-called Caucasoids resemble so-called Negroid since Negroids were first?
Also, my understanding is Caucasoid and Negroid describes features of a human, not the human’s race. Being Caucasoid and being “White” is not synonymous. An African or person of African ancestry can have Caucasoid features, but that doesn’t make him or her part of the “White race”.
What is your point? I haven’t followed the history of your argument so please enlighten me and others as to what you’re trying to prove. Are you saying East Africans and other Africans are from completely different “races”? Are you saying East Africans are a dark-skinned “White race”? What are you trying to prove here?
Basically these people hate White people and certainly do not consider themselves a part of their race. Socially speaking these people are Black regardles of facial features.
You can take your pseudo-science of facial classification of race and shove it!
They don't look like typical Somalis at all.
[This message has been edited by leba (edited 12 September 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
Basically these people hate White people and certainly do not consider themselves a part of their race.!
NO idiot they hate AMERICANS that a big difference. Most people in the thirth world hate Americans! dumbfuck
Somalis hate Congoid/Black/Negroid people also!
MUSA’S DREAM of going to America may soon become reality. He and all the other passengers in the eight-bus convoy are Somali Bantus, a long-persecuted people from one of the world’s most ruined countries. Two centuries ago their ancestors were taken from their homes in Mozambique, Tanzania and Malawi, and sold as slaves in Somalia. After slavery was gradually abolished in the 19th and early 20th centuries, the Bantus remained pariahs—even though they, like most Somalis, are Muslims. Their children faced discrimination in Somali schools. Some shop owners refused to serve them. Intermarriage was not accepted. When civil war between rival Somali clans broke out in 1991, thousands of Bantus fled on foot to Kenya, where they have since lived in the grim poverty of refugee camps.
source http://www.somalibantu.com/Refugee1.htm
quote:
Originally posted by leba:
Stop posting that picture you damn monkeys.They don't look like typical Somalis at all.
[This message has been edited by leba (edited 12 September 2005).]
The inescapeable reality of what Somalia is what burns your soul.
quote:
Originally posted by Charlie_Bass:
The inescapeable reality of what Somalia is what burns your soul.
reality of Somalia? Have you ever been in Somalia? NO i have you fag. Most people there are nice and friendly and dont act crazy like in that picture so that doesnt reflect reality in anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by Charlie_Bass:
The inescapeable reality of what Somalia is what burns your soul.
Yep. His chilish hate tantrum - quite amusing actually - was because the picture shattered his silly illusions.
These fools post pictures of Australian Lesbians, Filipina mail order brides, etc.. and try to convince themselves that Somalia is not 'really' Black Africa.
They spam a million pictures to that effect.
It only takes 1 picture to force them to face reality, and then the hysteria and tears, threats and name calling. 
Egyptsearch has no intellectual substance any more, but the comedy's still here, at least.
I didn't post those pictures. Euro guy did, That pictures of Osiron is humiliating and doesnt represent how Somalis act and look like in anyway. That's like picking out a picture of black Americans looting and saying all of them act like that and look like that.
[This message has been edited by leba (edited 12 September 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by leba:
That's like picking out a picture of black Americans looting and saying all of them act like that and look like that.
Take Osirion's comments up with him.
Your own conduct has always been uniformly vile and reprehensible.
By your own admission they are rooted in hatred [self hate really].
You are crying the crocodile tears of someone who can dish it out, but not take it.
You get no pity from me. Sorry.
quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
Basically it has been explained over and over again that bone morphology and phenotype does not represent race. Race is a sociopolitical construct.Basically these people hate White people and certainly do not consider themselves a part of their race. Socially speaking these people are Black regardles of facial features.
You can take your pseudo-science of facial classification of race and shove it!
osirion...it would probably be a diff.. story..if the atlantic slab=ve trade had turned out like that...maybe the margenilization of the what 13% of afro-american wouldnt exist???? he far-fetch...but u never know...
No AMERICAN BASES ARE STATIONED IN ANY SOMALI CITIES TODAY...WAR HAS ENDED...but CHEVRON, SHELL, CONCO....ARE PISSED FOR THAT...
explotation certainly occured to a group of people but it wont occur in SOMALIA...
quote:
Originally posted by bandon19:
EVIL EURO UR IN IDOIT THOSE PEOPLE LOOKING NOTHING LIKE CAUCASIONS. THEY LOOK MORE BLACKER THEN BLACK PEOPLE IN AMERICA AND MOST OF MY FAMILY MEMBERS. STOP TRYING TO SPLIT BLACK PEOPLE UP.
LOL...Bandon ur so ignorant ...since you dont know somalis...I AM 1...
The city is mogdisho......ethnic groups..somalis..and non ethnic... its obvious in the pic...
however if you kill a somali in somalia ethnic or not theyll retaliate...lol///dont mess
quote:
Originally posted by Evil Euro:quote:
"As our data show, the people of the Horn of Africa are craniofacially less distinct from a spectrum of samples marginally including South Asia and running all the way from the Middle East to northwest Europe than they are to any group in sub-Saharan Africa." (Brace et al., 1993, p. 19)
Hence, Brace's own description of his craniometric plot supports my interpretation of the data -- namely that Somalis show greater affinities with Eurasians than with Sub-Saharans, and are not part of any "African cluster".
Thought Writes:
1) The issue both YOU and BRACE seem to be discussing is phenotype.
2) Brace is discussing cranio-facial phenotype specially.
3) You have extrapolated from his SPECIFIC phenotypic evaluation of cranio-facial regions in an attempt to prove that OVERALL phenotypic affinity is greatest
between Eurasians and Somalis.
4) Your comparison of Eurasia to Sub-Saharan Africa and Somali is inappropriate. The fact that Andaman Islanders are Eurasians proves this point well.
quote:
Originally posted by Evil Euro:He then ends by reconfirming the distinctiveness of Horn people from Niger-Congo people (Negroids).
Thought Writes:
Central and Western Africans have SOME phenotypic features which are unique when compared to populations from the Horn of Africa. They SHARE other phenotypic affinities such as limb elongation and tropically adapted melanin levels. Mediterranean populations like Greeks have unique phenotypic features such as olive skin, curly hair, dark eyes and hair when compared to other Eurasians such as Swedes or the Irish. When we expand the study of affinities beyond phenotype we discover that while Horn of Africans and West Africans BOTH SHARE in the PN2 clade, the Greeks have very low frequencies of the European specific lineages such as Hg I and Hg R1b. Greeks also carry the Benin Sickle Cell Variant.
quote:
Originally posted by leba:
NO idiot they hate AMERICANS that a big difference. Most people in the thirth world hate Americans! dumbfuckSomalis hate Congoid/Black/Negroid people also!
MUSA’S DREAM of going to America may soon become reality. He and all the other passengers in the eight-bus convoy are Somali Bantus, a long-persecuted people from one of the world’s most ruined countries. Two centuries ago their ancestors were taken from their homes in Mozambique, Tanzania and Malawi, and sold as slaves in Somalia. After slavery was gradually abolished in the 19th and early 20th centuries, the Bantus remained pariahs—even though they, like most Somalis, are Muslims. [b]Their children faced discrimination in Somali schools. Some shop owners refused to serve them. Intermarriage was not accepted. When civil war between rival Somali clans broke out in 1991, thousands of Bantus fled on foot to Kenya, where they have since lived in the grim poverty of refugee camps.
source http://www.somalibantu.com/Refugee1.htm [/B]
"Somalis hate Congoid/Black/Negroid people also!"
Leba first off all SOmalis are black Africans, second why would Somalis hate other Africans who done them no harm, if anything Somalis hate each other more than anyother people, sad but its the reality, third ignore the Jew and the Asian who want provoke you to say racial slur against fellow Africans or European or anyother people.
quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:
When we expand the study of affinities beyond phenotype we discover that while Horn of Africans and West Africans BOTH SHARE in the PN2 clade
Thought Writes:
On the maternal side the ancestors of the E3b carrying males that migrated from Black Africa to southern Europe share a recent common lineage with West Africans as well.
Thought Posts:
The Making of the African mtDNA Landscape
Salas et al.
2002
"L2a, which we suggest may have become prevalent somewhere in north Central Africa, spreading BOTH east and west along the Sahel belt ~20,000 years ago at the peak of the LGM..."
quote:
Greeks also carry the Benin Sickle Cell Variant.
The excuses made for this are also amusing because like all "Erroneous" arguments, they are self defeating.
The argument is made that Benin haplotype spread from West Africa to Europe because sickle cell morphology is selected-for in southern Europe due to the precense of malaria.
Perhaps.
But this is tantamount to admission that European morphology has been affected by West African genes which then expand under selective pressure - meaning people who have these African genes survive and reproduce and those who don't - die.
This does not help the case for southern European racial purity one bit. Quite the contrary.
And it gets "worse".
Skin color, like sickle cell is also a genetically effected morphology.
Given an African admixed population in Southern Europe carrying darker skin tones and sickle cell morphologies, by what mechanism of biology would only the one be selected for, and not the other?
How can you admit sickle cell morphology comes into S. Europe from Africa and expands due to selective pressure, and then deny the possibility that the same may be true of Olive skin tone?
The point is - using selective pressure as an "excuse" for the precense of an African gene in European populations makes no sense.
By definition virtually any gene effecting morphology is under selective pressure.
The only one's that aren't, are junk gene mutations - like Y chromosome markers, but then, by definition they don't 'do anything' and so are not directly responsible for morphology - differences between peoples.
It's a subtle point and I don't expect Erroneous to follow it, but everyone else will. 
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 17 September 2005).]
DistortingEuro quotes from, but does not link to the article, precisely because he does not want it read, nor the context understood.
That would interfere with his distorting antics.
Sorry E, no one's buying this,
Australian Lesbian Somali's,
Y chromosome bearing females,
prehistoric whites of East Africa,
Fillipina Ethiopians,
or any of your other retarded ruses.
quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:
4) Your comparison of Eurasia to Sub-Saharan Africa and Somali is inappropriate. The fact that Andaman Islanders are Eurasians proves this point well.
Straw man. Brace is not comparing Somalis to just any Eurasians, but specifically to Europeans and Middle Easterners.
quote:
Mediterranean populations like Greeks have unique phenotypic features such as olive skin, curly hair, dark eyes and hair when compared to other Eurasians such as Swedes or the Irish. [...] the Greeks have very low frequencies of the European specific lineages such as Hg I and Hg R1b.
Paleolithic Northern Europeans:
quote:
Originally posted by Babbling Ape:
Given an African admixed population in Southern Europe carrying darker skin tones and sickle cell morphologies, by what mechanism of biology would only the one be selected for, and not the other?
You repeat your bullsh*t like a broken record because you have no evidence or answers for anything. What a dumb, desperate nigger you are -- a lowly West African slave who spends every waking moment looking for ways to steal white people's glory, just so you don't have to confront your own inferiority. I pity you.
"The overall Hb S gene frequency in Sicily is 2%. [...] At present there are in Sicily about 400 patients with sickle cell disease who cannot be distinguished from other Sicilian subjects; we have observed three blond, blue-eyed patients (fig.3)."
http://www.sicklecellsociety.org/information/resrep/res14.htm
"Skin color is one of the most conspicuous ways in which humans vary and has been widely used to define human races. Here we present new evidence indicating that variations in skin color are adaptive, and are related to the regulation of ultraviolet (UV) radiation penetration.... Skin coloration in humans is adaptive and labile. Skin pigmentation levels have changed more than once in human evolution. Because of this, skin coloration is of no value in determining phylogenetic relationships among modern human groups." (N. Jablonski and G. Chaplin, J Hum Evol, 2000)
The untanned skin of Southern Europeans doesn't get darker than #18 on this chart:
quote:
By definition virtually any gene effecting morphology is under selective pressure.The only one's that aren't, are junk gene mutations - like Y chromosome markers
Which is why geneticists use junk DNA to make inferences about ancestry and race, and not useless blood groups. 
quote:
By the way, the premise of this thread is based upon this article, http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/anthro.htm , which examins fallacies in anthropology all of which Erroneous E is a prime example of.
Translation: You have no answer for Brace's conclusion that indigenous East Africans are Caucasoid-like.
quote:
DistortingEuro quotes from, but does not link to the article, precisely because he does not want it read, nor the context understood.
Translation: You have no answer for Brace's conclusion that indigenous East Africans are Caucasoid-like.
quote:
Australian Lesbian Somali's,
Translation: You have no answer for Brace's conclusion that indigenous East Africans are Caucasoid-like.
quote:
Y chromosome bearing females,
Translation: You have no answer for Brace's conclusion that indigenous East Africans are Caucasoid-like.
quote:
Fillipina Ethiopians,
Translation: You have no answer for Brace's conclusion that indigenous East Africans are Caucasoid-like.
Brace own current comments clear the stench from Eurroneous E's dogbreath:
As I see it, the appearances of the Upper Nile Valley and Horn people has little if anything to do with admixtures. I have no Sahel samples in my data base. I do not even have Ethiopians. I would expect people like the Fulani to fall into the same general category as the Somali and Nubians in a kind of Northeast African group. Hiernaux's Elongated East Africans is a fine observation by a first-rate student of the business
Also...
East Africans have been Black for 10's of thousands of years
And
Terms like CaucaZoid, are worse than useless
The scholars agree and have debunked EuroMutt's racist-distortions.
Erroneous, try again, but first have a breath mint. As is, you're a liar, and your breath stinks.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 17 September 2005).]
First you state:
quote:
Originally posted by Evil Euro:Brace's own description of his craniometric plot supports my interpretation of the data -- namely that Somalis show greater affinities with Eurasians...
Thought Writes:
Then when I check you on the "Eurasian" comment you change-up and state:
quote:
Originally posted by Evil Euro:Brace is not comparing Somalis to just any Eurasians, but specifically to Europeans and Middle Easterners.
Thought Writes:
Be more consistent and we will begin to take you seriously...
The dumb-mutt is out of answers.
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Guys you know the deal. When Stupid-Euro says "Eurasians", he means Europeans and Middle-Easterners, but seems to have forgotten about some people in southern India and the Andamanese and the Pacific Islanders and Australians.
Even then "Middle Easterners" doesn't help him, since "Negritos" live in that region to, and various populations of these regions also have "recent" sub-Saharan origins.
quote:
Originally posted by Babbling Ape:
Sorry Erroneous, making up fantasy quotes, and repeating them out of insane frustration just adds to your humiliation.
TRANSLATION:
Making up fantasy quotes = Providing hard evidence
Repeating them out of insane frustration = Posting them out of rational satisfaction
Humiliation = Victory
quote:
Brace own current comments clear the stench from Eurroneous E's dogbreath:As I see it, the appearances of the Upper Nile Valley and Horn people has little if anything to do with admixtures. I have no Sahel samples in my data base. I do not even have Ethiopians. I would expect people like the Fulani to fall into the same general category as the Somali and Nubians in a kind of Northeast African group. Hiernaux's Elongated East Africans is a fine observation by a first-rate student of the business
Also...
East Africans have been Black for 10's of thousands of years
And
Terms like CaucaZoid, are worse than useless
And...
"As our data show, the people of the Horn of Africa are craniofacially less distinct from a spectrum of samples marginally including South Asia and running all the way from the Middle East to northwest Europe than they are to any group in sub-Saharan Africa." (Brace et al., 1993, p. 19)
* The appearances of the Upper Nile Valley and Horn people has little if anything to do with admixtures.
* I have no Sahel samples in my data base.
* I do not even have Ethiopians.
* I would expect people like the Fulani to fall into the same general category as - the Somali and Nubians.
* Hiernaux's Elongated East Africans is a fine observation by a first-rate student of the business.
* East Africans in question include some of the blackest people on Earth.
* East Africans have been equatorial [Black] for many 10's of thousands of years.
* Terms like CaucaZoid, are worse than useless.
quote:
Fake Euro writes:
Making up fantasy quotes = Providing hard evidence
Incorrect.
Making up fantasy quotes = making a complete fool of yourself.
Again.....
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 18 September 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Super car:
Even then "Middle Easterners" doesn't help him, since "Negritos" live in that region to, and various populations of these regions also have "recent" sub-Saharan origins.
^^
On point, since Brace has specifically critiqued the idea of referring to MiddleEasterns as 'caucasians'.
It's time for the stupid mutt to come up with tactics to his insane arguments because that old flawed map and old flawed sources (or new accurate but distorted citings of sources) just aren't working for him! 
[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 18 September 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Drowning Ape:
* The appearances of the Upper Nile Valley and Horn people has little if anything to do with admixtures.
Exactly. Their European-like appearance is native to East Africa.
quote:
* I have no Sahel samples in my data base.
Irrelevant.
quote:
* I do not even have Ethiopians.
Irrelevant.
quote:
* I would expect people like the Fulani to fall into the same general category as - the Somali and Nubians.
Expectation is not evidence.
quote:
* Hiernaux's Elongated East Africans is a fine observation by a first-rate student of the business.
Hierneaux's "East Africans" are really Bantus.
quote:
* East Africans in question include some of the blackest people on Earth.
"Skin pigmentation levels have changed more than once in human evolution. Because of this, skin coloration is of no value in determining phylogenetic relationships among modern human groups." (Jablonski, 2000)
quote:
* East Africans have been equatorial [Black] for many 10's of thousands of years.
Ditto.
quote:
* Terms like CaucaZoid, are worse than useless.
Opinion, not fact, as many scientists use racial terminology. Also, doesn't change the fact that Somalis resemble Europeans more than they do Sub-Saharan Africans.
quote:
CL Brace' own words::
* The appearances of the Upper Nile Valley and Horn people has little if anything to do with admixtures.
quote:
Deluded Euro writes:
Their European-like appearance
Wrong, since east Africans don't look like Europeans - which is exactly why you resort to googling up Australian Lesbians and Filipina mail order brides like the desparate, deluded, dirty, distorting, dunce you are.
quote:
Backtracking Euro writes: is native to East Africa
quote:
CL Brace' own words:I have no Sahel samples in my data base.
quote:
DumbEuro writes: Irrelevant.
quote:
CL Brace' own words:I do not even have Ethiopians.
quote:
EuroLoser writes: irrelevant
And Desparate Euro can't foist his paranoid-self delusion of: Vindicated by Brace words, by ignoring Brace words because he doesn't like them. Loser.
quote:
CL Brace' own words:I would expect people like the Fulani to fall into the same general category as - the Somali and Nubians.
quote:
InsipidEuro writes: Expectation is not evidence.
The evidence Brace skull map provides is simply that:
* Somali sub-saharans' nose and skull shape clusters with Nubians.
* His limited selection of other Sub-saharan Africans cluster with Australians and Melanesians.
* Neolithic Greeks are intermediate, and cluster closer to Nubians than they do with modern NorthWest Europeans.
None of which vindicates you, in any way, self delusions notwithstanding.
quote:
CL Brace' own words:Hiernaux's Elongated East Africans is a fine observation by a first-rate student of the business.
quote:
Stupid Euro writes: Hierneaux's "East Africans" are really Bantus.
Wrong, Hiernaux's Elongated East Africans are Cushites and Nilo Saharans.
His elongated West Africans are NigerCongo and Berber speakers.
His elongated Central and Southern Africans are Bantu speakers.
As shown...
Keep trying Dumb Euro, we know you're stupid and don't expect you to catch on too quick.
quote:
CL Brace' own words:East Africans in question include some of the blackest people on Earth.
quote:
Irrelevant Euro writes: "Skin pigmentation levels have changed more than once in human evolution.(Jablonski, 2000)
That's true. It means that Native East Africans who've always lived in Africa, are Black and always have been. As Jablonski herself notes: dark skin is the original condition of humans. Early Africans would have had to have been very dark skinned.
So Jablonksi also rejects you. This means EuroLoser will soon have to start another paranoid self-deluding thread, and go into deep denial by distorting her views as well.
quote:
CL Brace' own words:East Africans have been equatorial [Black] for many 10's of thousands of years.
quote:
Euro in Denial writes: Ditto.
You had better ditto because you sure can't deny.
quote:
CL Brace' own words: Terms like CaucaZoid, are worse than useless.
quote:
Bitter Euro whines: Opinion, not fact
Again...CL Brace' own words, so choke on them.
Even worse [for you], is that they are rooted in fact: caucaZoid - a term for a race group, no longer in scientifice use - American Heritage Dictionary [2005]
It appears you spend and awful lot of energy running away from Brace own words, for someone claiming to be vindicated by them.
Correcting the thread TOPIC:
Deluded Euro: Destroyed, by Brace's own words:
quote:
Originally posted by COBRA:
Euro Trash your just pathtic....look at you.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 19 September 2005).]
Rasol is right, this thread should be called "Evil-Euro is Destroyed by Brace's Words"
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
LOL Stupid-Euro messed himself up again as usual!!This thread should be called "Evil-Euro is Destroyed by Brace's Words"
"Vindicated" by Brace's own words
Individuals with Paranoid Personality Disorder experience a polarity in their self-image; even though their behavior may be grandiose, they are vulnerable to shame and will alternate between the impotent, despised self image and the vindicated self.
Their defenses are activated in the service of warding off shame and humiliation, they are vengeful and pursue conflict with great tenacity, never seeming to tire in their quest for self-vindication.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 20 September 2005).]
On a different board i also thought that Ethiopians are caucasoid. Now i know they are not and don't want anything to do with caucasoids.
These terms (caucasoid and negroid) are not used in academia.
[This message has been edited by Puro Hybrido (edited 20 September 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Babbling Ape:
Wrong, since east Africans don't look like Europeans
Not the recent Bantu and Negroid ones. But the predominantly indigenous ones certainly do:
quote:
Correct, contradicting your lie attributing E. African looks to mixture with fantasy "Euro-zoids" of East Africa.
Nope. Confirming my previous statement that native East Africans are more Caucasoid than Negroid.
quote:
Brace can't assess East Africans, if he doesn't have Ethiopians in his database
He has Somalis in his database. Somalis are East Africans. Therefore, he can (and does) assess East Africans. Moreover, he assesses the most important East Africans, because it was in Somalia that E3b originated.
quote:
* Somali sub-saharans' nose and skull shape clusters with Nubians.
Incorrect. Somalis cluster with Europeans, as Brace's own words reveal:
"As our data show, the people of the Horn of Africa are craniofacially less distinct from a spectrum of samples marginally including South Asia and running all the way from the Middle East to northwest Europe than they are to any group in sub-Saharan Africa." (Brace et al., 1993, p. 19)
quote:
* His limited selection of other Sub-saharan Africans cluster with Australians and Melanesians.
Irrelevant to the clustering of Somalis with Europeans.
quote:
* Neolithic Greeks are intermediate, and cluster closer to Nubians than they do with modern NorthWest Europeans.
Incorrect. Greeks cluster with Central European Swiss and other Caucasoids. It's the Nubians who are in fact intermediate between Sub-Saharan Africans and Europeans.
quote:
The evidence Brace skull map provides is simply that:
Not only did you completely misinterpret Brace's plot in your three points above, but you forgot these two important findings:
* E3b-carrying North Africans cluster with Europeans and not Africans.
* Pre-Dynastic and Dynastic Egyptians cluster with Europeans and not Africans.
quote:
Wrong, Hiernaux's Elongated East Africans are Cushites and Nilo Saharans.
Not the Tutsi. They're E3a-carrying Bantu Negroids. And you haven't provided any evidence that they (or the Fulani) cluster craniometrically with East Africans rather than Sub-Saharan Africans.
quote:
That's true. It means that Native East Africans who've always lived in Africa, are Black and always have been.
"Skin pigmentation levels have changed more than once in human evolution." (Jablonski, 2000)
^^ The dumb ape thinks that 'change' means 'stay the same'.
quote:
Even worse [for you], is that they are rooted in fact: caucaZoid - a term for a race group, no longer in scientifice use - American Heritage Dictionary [2005]
Yes, you and the dictionary are correct. And scientists like Cavalli-Sforza, Groves, Angel etc. -- whom you yourself quote -- are wrong.
quote:
Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Not the recent Bantu and Negroid ones. But the predominantly indigenous ones certainly do:
Stupid-Euro, can you please tell us why your pictures of Somalis are so few and limited. I have Somali friends and have been to their community and non of them look like that! The man with the white hat is a Banadir (Yemeni descent) and is a small minority as far as the other man who I believe is the prime minister, I don't know much about him but he also looks atypical.
Why is it when I do a google image search of Somalis that I get alot of more pictures than those SAME two you keep posting?
There are Somalis who post here too, and I suggest you stop using them and their people as pawns in your propaganda of lies!
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Stupid-Euro, can you please tell us why your pictures of Somalis are so few and limited. I have Somali friends and have been to their community and non of them look like that! The man with the white hat is a Banadir (Yemeni descent) and is a small minority as far as the other man who I believe is the prime minister, I don't know much about him but he also looks atypical.Why is it when I do a google image search of Somalis that I get alot of more pictures than those SAME two you keep posting?
There are Somalis who post here too, and I suggest you stop using them and their people as pawns in your propaganda of lies!
Abdullahi Yusuf looks like a typical Somali, while the guy whome you are calling bandir to me looks like typical light skin Somali, matter fact in single Somali family you will find brothers and sisters who are pitch black, merim and yellow,and all of them have the same parents...
Same clan but different shades..
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[This message has been edited by Ceelgabo_11 (edited 20 September 2005).]
[This message has been edited by Ceelgabo_11 (edited 20 September 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Ceelgabo_11:
Abdullahi Yusuf looks like a typical Somali, while the guy whome you are calling bandir to me looks like typical light skin Somali, matter fact in single Somali family you will find brothers and sisters who are pitch black, merim and yellow,and all of them have the same parents...
Same clan but different shades..
I assume he is Banadir by the white hat he is wearing, plus a Somali on this board said so. He also said something about Abdullahi Yusuf.
But at least you show more pictures of your people! stupid-euro likes to show only a couple and lie. "caucasoid" Somalis my a**!
[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 20 September 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
[B]It is a well known fact (at least well known to everyone but dumb-mutt Euro) that that old 'craniofacial map' fails to represent the diversity of Eurasians and let alone Africans! Scholars like Michael Cricheton have shown that the so-called "Eurasian-like" Somalis and Nubians cluster closer to groups in Kenya and Tanzania.
Actually Brace did include a sample from Tanzania, which he included among the sub-Saharan Africans. The Sub-Saharan samples were pooled together because his earlier research (which he cites) showed them to be very similar.
(Poundbury is in Britain)
All three ancient Egyptian samples (Kharga, el-Hesa, Lisht) and some Nubian samples (X-group, Meroitic, Christian) cluster with Arabs and Berbers
Kenyans and Tanzanians cluster w/ sub-Saharans
"Thus, it is apparent that populations affiliated with the two geographic regions are not closely related to each other."
JD Irish, Am. J. Phys. Anthropol., 102:455-467, 1997.
"...a shared, mass-reduced dental pattern is present not only throughout post-Pleistocene North Africa, but also Europe."
J.D. Irish, Homo, 49:138-155, 1998
[This message has been edited by Salpierre (edited 20 September 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Salpierre:
Actually Brace did include a sample from Tanzania, which he included among the sub-Saharan Africans. The Sub-Saharan samples were pooled together because his earlier research (which he cites) showed them to be very similar.
But of course, Sub saharan Africans are highly diverse and include Somali - far more craniometrically diverse than Europeans in fact.
A well designed study should capture that diversity.
Brace does not show sub-saharan diversity, but rather a contrived polarity, which is a predictable by-product of his sampling strategy.
He has no Ethiopians. Ethiopia alone has 60 major ethnic groups, some difficult to distinguish craniometrically from Somali.....
Nilo-saharans of Ethiopia:
Somali Football team:
Others are similar in head shape to West Africans...dozens more are 'in between' the elongated and broadheaded archtypes.
India, with a billion people and 100's of ethnic groups occupies one point on Brace map.
Sub-sahara occupies one point.
Australia and Melanesa - one point.
In violent contrast, European groups are distinguished by ethnicity and archeology and so spread clinially over a distance that is as great as the distance between Somali and other sub-saharans, with the clines serving to obfuscate that fact.
Sub saharans somehow end up grouping with genetically unrelated Australian Aborigines.
Somali are closer to Aborigines than they are to Brace 'sub-saharans'.
Somali crania look no more like Australian Aborigines than they do like Europeans, but they do resemble any number of other sub-saharan Africans to whom they are also biologically related.
So Brace approach lacked objectivity and balance and was rightly and fairly criticized in peer review by Dr. Shomarka Keita and others.
Where Brace deserves credit is for aknowledging the limitations of his early, pre E3b, and frankly flawed work, and putting it into proper context - something the notorious and discredited Carleton Coon [who claimed the Tutsi came from Arabia] could never do.
It takes humility and honesty to do that.
And I respect Brace more for it.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 20 September 2005).]
A more recent study from JD Irish:
J Hum Evol. 2003 Aug;45(2):113-44.
Ancient teeth and modern human origins: an expanded comparison of African Plio-Pleistocene and recent world dental samples.
Previous research by the first author revealed that, relative to other modern peoples, sub-Saharan Africans exhibit the highest frequencies of ancestral (or plesiomorphic) dental traits and, thus, appear to be least derived dentally from an ancestral hominin state. Both methods yielded similar results, which support the previous findings; that is, of all modern human samples, sub-Saharan Africans again exhibit the closest phenetic similarity to various African Plio-Pleistocene hominins -through their shared prevalence of morphologically complex crown and root traits. The fact that sub-Saharan Africans express these apparently plesiomorphic characters, along with additional information on their affinity to other modern populations, evident intra-population heterogeneity, and a world-wide dental cline emanating from the sub-continent, provides further evidence that is consistent with an African origin model.
A study from a Japanese bioanthropologist:
Hanihara T. 1996
Comparison of craniofacial features of major human groups.
Department of Anatomy, Tohoku University School of Medicine, Sendai, Japan.
Distance analysis and factor analysis, based on Q-mode correlation coefficients, were applied to 23 craniofacial measurements in 1,802 recent and prehistoric crania from major geographical areas of the Old World.
The major findings are as follows:
1) Australians show closer similarities to African populations than to Melanesians.
2) Recent Europeans align with East Asians, and early West Asians resemble Africans.
3) The Asian population complex with regional difference between northern and southern members is manifest.
4) Clinal variations of craniofacial features can be detected in the Afro-European region on the one hand, and Australasian and East Asian region on the other hand.
5) The craniofacial variations of major geographical groups are not necessarily consistent with their geographical distribution pattern.
This may be a sign that the evolutionary divergence in craniofacial shape among recent populations of different geographical areas is of a highly limited degree.
S.O.Y. Keita and A. J. Boyce (Institute of Biological Anthropology, Oxford University)
2002
Badarian crania were studied with European and African series from the Howells’ database, using generalized distances and cluster analyses (neighbour joining and UPGMA algorithms). Greater affinity is found with the African series.
The Badarian crania have a modal metric phenotype that is clearly 'southern'; most classify into the Kerma (Nubian), Gaboon, and Kenyan groups NO Badarian cranium in any analysis classified into the European series.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 20 September 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
But of course, Sub saharan Africans are highly diverse and include Somali - far more craniometrically diverse than Europeans in fact.A well designed study should capture that diversity.
Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure"
Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636
Estimates of genetic diversity in major geographic regions are frequently made by pooling all individuals into regional aggregates. This method can potentially bias results if there are differences in population substructure within regions, since increased variation among local populations could inflate regional diversity. A preferred method of estimating regional diversity is to compute the mean diversity within local populations. Both methods are applied to a global sample of craniometric data consisting of 57 measurements taken on 1734 crania from 18 local populations in six geographic regions: sub-Saharan Africa, Europe, East Asia, Australasia, Polynesia, and the Americas. Each region is represented by three local populations.
Both methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 20 September 2005).]
quote:A more recent study from JD Irish:
J Hum Evol. 2003 Aug;45(2):113-44.
Ancient teeth and modern human origins: an expanded comparison of African Plio-Pleistocene and recent world dental samples.
So his research supports the out-of-Africa model for populating the world. What's your point?
quote:
A study from a Japanese bioanthropologist:
Hanihara T. 1996Comparison of craniofacial features of major human groups.
Interesting you bring up Hanihara. I don't remember exactly but I think his "early West Asians" were very old, possibly tens of thousands of years, before races as we know them came into being. And any resemblance to Africans wasn't that close. But I'm surprised you mention Hanihara, since his 2003 study grouped Egyptians and Nubians with Europeans. Look at the plots at the bottom.
[hr]
Am J Phys Anthropol. 2003 Jul;121(3):241-51.
Characterization of biological diversity through analysis of discrete cranial traits.
Hanihara T, Ishida H, Dodo Y.
"In the present study, the frequency distributions of 20 discrete cranial traits in 70 major human populations from around the world were analyzed. The principal-coordinate and neighbor-joining analyses of Smith's mean measure of divergence (MMD), based on trait frequencies, indicate that 1) the clustering pattern is similar to those based on classic genetic markers, DNA polymorphisms, and craniometrics; 2) significant interregional separation and intraregional diversity are present in Subsaharan Africans; 3) clinal relationships exist among regional groups; 4) intraregional discontinuity exists in some populations inhabiting peripheral or isolated areas."
East Asians
1. Japanese (Tokyo and Tohoku regions)
2. Hokkaido Ainu (Recent Ainu people)
3. Sakhalin in Ainu (Southern Sakhalin)
4. North Chinese (Mainly from Liaoning Prefecture)
Southeast Asians
5. Myanmar (Recent Burmese)
6. Mainland SE Asians (Thai, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, and Malay)
7. Javanese (Greater Sunda islands)
8. Philippines (Non-Negrito Filipinos)
9. Borneans (Mainly land Dayaks)
10. Lesser Sunda (Timor, Bali, Sumbawa, Flores, and Celebes Islands)
11. Andamanese/Nicobarese (Andaman Negritos and Nicobar Islands)
Northeast Asians
12. Mongolians (Ulan Bator and other regions)
13. Buryats (From Northeast Siberia)
14. Amur Basin (Ulchs, Nanaians, Negidals, Nivkhs, and Orochs)
15. Neolithic Baikalians (From around Lake Baikal)
16. Yakuts (From Northeast Siberia)
Arctic
17. Ekvens (Iron-Age people from Ekven site, Chukot Peninsula)
18. Chukchis (From Arctic region of Northeast Siberia)
19. Aleuts (Mainly from Unalaska Island)
20. Asian Eskimos (From Arctic region of Northeast Siberia)
21. Greenland Eskimos (West Coast of Greenland)
New World
22. Northwest Coast (Northwest Coast of Canada)
23. Northwest America (Plateau, Great Basin, California, and Southwest Cultural areas)
24. Northeast America (Great Plains, Northeast, and Southeast Cultural areas)
25. Central America (Mexico, Colombia, Ecuador, Carib, Venezuela, and Guyana)
26. Peruvians (Cerro del Oro, Huacho, Pisagua, etc.)
27. Fuegians/Patagonians (Terra del Fuego and Patagonia region)
Micronesians
28. Mariana (Guam, Saipan, and Tinian)
Polynesians
29. Hawaii (Mainly from Oahu Island)
30. Easter (Easter Islanders)
31. Marquesas (Mainly from Uahuka Island)
32. Maori (New Zealand)
33. Moriori (Chatham Islands)
Melanesians
34. Papua New Guinea (Purari River delta, Fly River delta, Sepik River Delta, etc.)
35. Torres Strait (Island of Torres Strait)
36. North Melanesians (New Ireland, New Britain, Solomon, and Santa Cruz)
37. South Melanesians (Loyalty, New Caledonia, Vanuatu, and Fiji)
Australians
38. East Australians (New South Wales, Queensland, and Victoria)
39. South/West Australians (South Australia and Western Australia)
Tibet/Nepal/Northeast India
40. Tibetans/Nepalese (Tibetan Soldiers , lowland of Nepal)
41. Assam/Sikkim (Darjeeling, Assam, and Sikkim districts)
South Asians
42. Northeast India (Bengal and Bihar districts)
43. South India (Madras, Tamil Natu, Malabar Coast, and Karnataka)
44. Northwest India (Punjab and Kashmir districts)
Central Asians
45. Tagars (Iron-Age Tagar culture)
46. Kazakhs (From Central Asia, Kazakh)
Europeans
47. Russians (Recent Russians)
48. Greece (Ancient and recent Greece)
49. Eastern Europeans (Slav group: Poland, Czecho, Hergegovina, Bulgaria, and Yugoslavia)
50. Italy (Recent Italians)
51. Finland/Ural (Including a few samples of Ural-language people)
52. Scandinavia (Norwegians and Swedish)
53. Germany (Recent German)
54. France (Recent French)
UK series
55. Ensay (Late Medieval to post-Medieval periods, Scotland)
56. Poundbury (Late Roman period, Southwest England)
57. Spitalfields-1 (Mid-Victorian, London)
58. Spitalfields-2 (Pre-17th century, London)
North Africans
59. Naqada (Predynastic Egypt, ca. 5,000-4,000 BP)
60. Gizeh (26th-30th Dynasty, Egypt, BC)
61. Kerma (12th-13th Dynasty of Nubia)
62. Nubia (Early Christian or Christian date Nubia)
Subsaharan Africans
63. Somalia (Erigavo District, Ogaden Somali)
64. Nigeria-1 (Ibo tribe)
65. Nigeria-2 (Ashanti tribe)
66. Gabon (Fernand Vaz River)
67. Tanzania (Haya tribe, Musira Island, Lake Victoria)
68. Kenya (Bantu-speaking people from Kenya)
69. South Africa (Zulu and once called Kaffir tribes)
70. Khoisans (Bushmans and Hottentots)
quote:
Originally posted by Salpierre:
Interesting you bring up Hanihara. I don't remember exactly but I think his "early West Asians" were very old, possibly tens of thousands of years, before races as we know them came into being.
Quoting CL Brace: terms like caucasoid are worse than meaningless, so your "races as we know it", has no validity in terms of Brace's work.
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
[B] But of course, Sub saharan Africans are highly diverse and include Somali - far more craniometrically diverse than Europeans in fact.A well designed study should capture that diversity.
That argument doesn't really work. Somalis represent an extreme in teh sub-Saharan morphology, and the Egyptians still clustered outside them and more toward the Europeans. If he included other Africans, they would have clustered with sub-Saharans or would have been positioned intermediately between sub-Saharans and Somalis. In one of his dendrograms he used a pooled group of Europeans and included Nubians and Somali, the Africans most likely to cluster with Egyptians, and look what happened:
quote:
So his research supports the out-of-Africa model for populating the world. What's your point?
The point is that some modern African and Eurasian populations, including some early Europeans....share plesiomorphic traits,dental and cranial with the original Out of Africa populations and which are so described by Eric Trinkous and TW Holiday and others, as "African like", in physiogamy and are attributed to common origin.
Whereas CL Brace attributes tooth size reduction in the Nile Valley to a consequence of in situ adaptation due to early crop domestication.
Given this. The question is - What point are you trying to make?
Claim your own culture.
quote:
Originally posted by Salpierre:
That argument doesn't really work. Somalis represent an extreme in the sub-Saharan morphology
That conclusion is unsubstantiated by CL Brace for reasons he himself has presently acknowledged, and directly refuted by Jean Hiernaux whom Brace now concurs with:
Tutsi of Rwanda:
[color=green]
Masai:
[color=blue]
Galla(Oromo):
[color=red]
Sab Somali:
[color=gray]
Warsingali Somali:
[color=navy]
Extremes,
Tallest: Tutsi
Longest heads: Tutsi
Widest heads: Oromo
Facial Index [least] Sab Somali; [most] Warsingali Somali -> PAUSE HERE, for thought.
continue.....
Face Height: Tutsi
Face Width: Masai
Nose Height: Tutsi
Nose Breadth/least: Somali
Relative Trunk length/least: Masai
Cephalic Index: Oromo
Nasal Index: Somali
The Somali do not even constitute an extreme when compared to only 3 other ethnic groups, much less for the entiriety of Sub-saharan Africa, most of whom from Nigerians to Ethiopians we have no such information for.
So the facts stand:
Both methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies. - Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure".
A well design study **must** reflect the reality of diversity within tropical Africans, and not disguise it behind contrived clustering methods.
______________________________________________
As for the Ancient Egyptians, most anthropological studies of Upper Egyptian remains from pre-dynastic and onwards, relate them most closely to Nubians, who are in turn related to other elongated Africans....and **not** Europeans.
NO Badarian cranium in ANY analysis classified into the European series. - SOY Keita.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 21 September 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Evil Euro:
And...[b]"As our data show, the people of the Horn of Africa are craniofacially less distinct from a spectrum of samples marginally including South Asia and running all the way from the Middle East to northwest Europe than they are to any group in sub-Saharan Africa." (Brace et al., 1993, p. 19)
[/B]
Thought Writes:
Again, in SOME ways Horn of Africa populations have greater similarity phenotypically to some Eurasians than to other Sub-Saharan Africans. In other ways, such as limb elongation and skin color, etc they phenotypically cluster with other Sub-Saharan Africans.
Likewise, in SOME ways Greeks have greater similarity phenotypically to some Sub-Saharan Africans (dark hair color and eye color) than to other Europeans (such as Swedes and the Irish). In other ways, such as cranial morphology and skin color, etc they phenotypically cluster with other Europeans.
Lineage and hence "Race" is based upon blood however. When we look at the bloodline of the Greeks we see that they LACK the defining European male lineages R1b and haplogroup I. The populations from the Horn of Africa on the otherhand share in the common Sub-Saharan bloodline - the PN2 clade.
[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 21 September 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
But of course, Sub saharan Africans are highly diverse and include Somali - far more craniometrically diverse than Europeans in fact.
A well designed study should capture that diversity.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 20 September 2005).]
Thought Writes:
Indeed. I would add that cranio-facial diversity is but one gage of phenotype. Europeans are much more diverse when it comes to eye and hair color. Diversity is accentuated when it comes to African people and downplayed when it comes to Europeans.
[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 21 September 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Salpierre:
....before races as we know them came into being.
Thought Writes:
Your position is flawed. Before we can debate "races as we know them" YOU must first define and delineate what YOU mean when you use the term "race".
quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:
Again, in SOME ways Horn of Africa populations have greater similarity phenotypically to some Eurasians than to other Sub-Saharan Africans. In other ways, such as limb elongation and skin color, etc they phenotypically cluster with other Sub-Saharan Africans.Likewise, in SOME ways Greeks have greater similarity phenotypically to some Sub-Saharan Africans (dark hair color and eye color) than to other Europeans (such as Swedes and the Irish). In other ways, such as cranial morphology and skin color, etc they phenotypically cluster with other Europeans.
No. That's a ridiculous analogy, and you're a scientifically ignorant fool. Having dark hair and eyes does not make one "phenotypically similar to sub-Saharan Africans" because those features are shared by people all over the globe, including in Sweden and Ireland. However, the craniofacial traits that Somalis possess make them phenotypically similar to Caucasoids and only to Caucasoids, not every other race on earth.
quote:
When we look at the bloodline of the Greeks we see that they LACK the defining European male lineages R1b and haplogroup I.
What's a "defining European male lineage", and why do you assume there are only two? If you mean a lineage that originated in Europe, then Balkan E-M78-alpha is as European as R1b and I (which Greeks carry, btw).
quote:
The populations from the Horn of Africa on the otherhand share in the common Sub-Saharan bloodline - the PN2 clade.
Irrelevant to the racial affiliations of haplogroups.
quote:
Your position is flawed. Before we can debate "races as we know them" YOU must first define and delineate what YOU mean when you use the term "race".
Why would anyone be interested in how laymen like Salpierre, myself or others on this forum define race? How about we go by anthropologist Colin Groves' definition instead?
For about 30 years the origin of the modern human species has been the subject of much debate. We are divided into well-marked, if overlapping, geographic races:
* Caucasoid people in Europe, North Africa, the Middle East and the Indian subcontinent;
* Mongoloid people in eastern and South-East Asia, the Pacific and the Americas;
* Negroid people in Africa, south of the Sahara; and
* Australoid people in Australia and Melanesia.
http://www.rednova.com/news/display/?id=10801
quote:
Having dark hair and eyes does not make one "phenotypically similar to sub-Saharan Africans" because those features are shared by people all over the globe, including in Sweden and Ireland.
Actually Thought is correct. It is your argument that is self defeating.
Phenotypical features such as hair color vary clineally, so that blondes make up over 50% of Nordic countries, but only 10% in Southern Europe and are essentially non-existant in tropical Africa.
If black hair is 'too common' to be of relevance....then blonde hair is not.
So either it is significant that most Greeks and sub-saharans are dark [in hair and eyes], which is a common trait....Or it is significant, that most Nordes are blonde, which is an uncommon trait.
Either way it unites southern Europeans with tropical Africans and clusters them away from Nordics.
Thought's logic is sound. And **your** illogical argument explodes in your face, as usual.
As for elongated Africans like the Somali, per Hiernaux whom CL Brace concurs with....they should not be considered closely related to Euroepans, with whom they difer greatly physically in a number of respects.
quote:
However, the craniofacial traits that Somalis possess make them phenotypically similar to Caucasoids and only to Caucasoids
Meaningless **in terms of Brace's work** as Brace regards the term "caucaZoid" as meaningless.
Wrong in **any** terms as the principal shared featured between elongated Africans and some Europeans is nasal index -
The nasal index was popularly used by diffusionists to prove "white" origins of civilizations as diverse as the Chinese, Mayan and Polynesian. This dark white relationship was founded on such concepts as long, narrow noses being labeled "Caucasoid."
Eskimos, American Indians, Northern Chinese, etc., all have narrow noses but show little evidence of gene flow with Europeans.
Indeed, genetic studies have shown that the belief that straight, narrow noses among Nilotic peoples is due to migrations from Europe or Asia is not correct. (Molnar, 1991)
PKM's Short Primer on Physical Anthropology
quote:
What's a "defining European male lineage"
The lineages they had when they migrated into Europe, and shared for most of their history as Europeans. The lineages used to define aboriginal [First] Europeans by geneticists like Underhill.
R1b and I: . about 80 percent of all European males shared a single pattern, suggesting they had a common ancestor thousands of generations ago
The lineages that distinguished from neolithic lineages **imported** into Euro as admixture from nubia [Larry Angel], namely tropical African PN2 lineages.
Keep trying....
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 22 September 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Having dark hair and eyes does not make one "phenotypically similar to sub-Saharan Africans" because those features are shared by people all over the globe, including in Sweden and Ireland. However, the craniofacial traits that Somalis possess make them phenotypically similar to Caucasoids and only to Caucasoids, not every other race on earth.
1) Of course these Black African derived features are "shared by people all over the globe". People all over the globe descend from a small group of Paleolithic Black Africans. Hence certain phenotypic features such as dark skin and hair spread out of Africa with humans. As humans adapted to new environments they adapted new and unique phenotypes. We see this with the light hair and eyes of **TRUE** Europeans. Greeks lack these true European features because they lack the true European bloodlines defined by haplogroup I and R1b.
2) Cranio-facial make-up represents a sub-set of overall phenotype, which includes eye and hair color. Cranio-facial morphology does not represent phenotype in totality. Limb elongation and skin color ALSO represent phenotype. Somalis have limb elongation and dark skin like other Africans, hence they share in a common phenotype with other Africans. Somalis ALSO share in the Sub-Saharan bloodline defined as the PN2 Y-Chromosome.
3) Some West Africans such as Fulanis and Tuaregs share cranio-facial phenotypes with Somalis. Some Northern Europeans such as the "Black Irish" share dark hair and eye color with Greeks. However, the typical phenotypic trend in West Africa is broader cranio-facial phenotypes in Western Africa than in Eastern Africa. Likewise, the typical phenotypic trend in Northern Europe is lighter eyes and hair than in Southern Europe. What distinguishes these two scenarios is that while Horn of Africa populations share in common gene pools with Western Africans, Greeks have substantially insignificant frequencies of the true European bloodlines Hg I and Hg R1b.
[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 22 September 2005).]
"Against this background of disease, movement and pedomorphic reduction of body size one can identify Negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers, probably from Nubia via the unknown predecesors of the Badarians and Tasians....". - Angel
...which in this case, has been attributed to mixing with black East Africans! So "genetic relationship", not mere coincidental or "unrelated" superficial similarities, has been established as the cause of these circumstances.
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 23 September 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Babbling Ape:
If black hair is 'too common' to be of relevance....then blonde hair is not. Either way it unites southern Europeans with tropical Africans and clusters them away from Nordics.
No, it doesn't. It unites Southern Europeans with all dark-haired and -eyed people worldwide, including the Chinese. And blond hair unites Northern Europeans with Australian Aborigines. Obviously, Mediterraneans are not Mongoloid and Nordics are not Australoid, which is why scientists don't make inferences about race based on hair and eye color, you clueless ape.
quote:
Wrong in **any** terms as the principal shared featured between elongated Africans and some Europeans is nasal index -
Quoting from Afronut websites isn't going to save you, monkey. Of course, craniometry involves more than just nasal index.
Analysis based on 24 cranial measurements:
quote:
The lineages they had when they migrated into Europe, and shared for most of their history as Europeans. The lineages used to define aboriginal [First] Europeans by geneticists like Underhill.The lineages that distinguished from neolithic lineages **imported** into Euro as admixture from nubia [Larry Angel], namely tropical African PN2 lineages.
* Yawn *
quote:
And blond hair unites Northern Europeans with Australian Aborigines
No EuroMonkey. Blonde hair is extremely rare in Aborigines, but it is predominent in Nordics.
So blondeness separates Northern Europe from Southern Europe, regardless.
Keep trying...
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 25 September 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Ignorant Ape:
Blonde hair is extremely rare in Aborigines
quote:
Originally posted by Puro Hybrido:
Anthrometry is also pseudoscientific IMO. This stuff was largely discredited thanks to Franz Boas. [/B]
I tend to agree.
quote:
Blondeness separates Northern Europe from Southern Europe, regardless.Keep trying...
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 25 September 2005).]
quote:Annals of Human Genetics
Originally posted by Thought2:
quote:Thought Writes:
Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:
When we expand the study of affinities beyond phenotype we discover that while Horn of Africans and West Africans BOTH SHARE in the PN2 clade
On the maternal side the ancestors of the E3b carrying males that migrated from Black Africa to southern Europe share a recent common lineage with West Africans as well.
Thought Posts:
The Making of the African mtDNA Landscape
Salas et al.
2002
"L2a, which we suggest may have become prevalent somewhere in north Central Africa, spreading BOTH east and west along the Sahel belt ~20,000 years ago at the peak of the LGM..."
quote:Evergreen Writes: The beautiful thing about this post from Evil Euro is that it predates the *2007 work by Crucianni et al. that demonstrates that haplogroup E-M78* derived in southern Egypt/Northern Sudan around the time frame of the Wadi Halfa people. As we can see from Evil Euro’s graph, these E-M78* people phonetically cluster with “Africa” (i.e., “Sub-Saharan” Africa) before clustering with any other group. We can see that the Australo-Melanesean (or “Generalized Moderns”) likewise cluster phenetically with “Sub-Saharan” samples.
Originally posted by Evil Euro:
[QUOTE]
Quoting from Afronut websites isn't going to save you, monkey. Of course, craniometry involves more than just nasal index.
Analysis based on 24 cranial measurements:
quote:Evergreen Writes: It is important to note the differences in effective population size between NE Africa and SW Asia during this timeframe. This helps explain why the African derived genetic lineage E-M78* (and African phenetic characteristics) became so common in mesolithic/early neolithic SW Asia and SE Europe.
Originally posted by Evergreen:
Here is an excerpt from Africa: A Biography of the Continent By John Reader. In this excerpt John Reader describes the culture of the original E-M78* carrying populations (Halfan Culture, after Wadi Halfa, Nubia) and gives us a clue as to why they may have spread out of Africa at the beginning of the Holocene.
“In the course of the 2,000 years immediately prior to the last glacial maximum 18,000 years ago, the number of sites in the Nile valley increased four-fold; during the following 2,000 years (18,000 to 16,000 years ago) the number almost doubled again, and it increased by yet another one-third between 16,000 and 14,000 years ago. By 12,000 years ago, the number of occupation sites along the Nile valley was more than ten times the number known from before the last glacial maximum, 6,000 years earlier.”
“Throughout this period the majority of sites had covered an area about 400 m (the home base for a group of perhaps forty people), but the size of the largest rose from 800 m 18,000 years ago to more than 10,000 m 6,000 years later – large enough to constitute a village.”
quote:Evergreen Writes: It is a good picture. But I'm not sure what your getting at? E3b split off from PN2 ~ 25,000 years ago. E3a split off from PN2 ~ 20,000 years ago. Both of these groups of people split off within tropical Africa and from a recent common ancestor. This is why we see affinities between E3b carrying populations in the Nile Valley at 15,000 years ago and E3a carrying populations today.
Originally posted by e3b1c1:
see the picture above put by evil euro put
it show you the splitt in pn2 30,000 years ago
great picture
quote:There you go again with the jokes, e3b1c1. Surely you realize that that was just a photoshop cut-and-paste of modern day people, not a representation of ancient E3a and E3b carrying populations. You do not this....right?
Originally posted by e3b1c1:
i dont know you probably blind man on the left i see a negro on the right i see north african man who looks pure caucasian
e3b1c1
quote:That's because the picture is of a modern north african, not a ancient north African. You and you're silly jokes.
Originally posted by e3b1c1:
i dont see anything sub sharan in the north african man
quote:Evergreen Writes: I'm not sure that most modern North Africans look like that guy. But many do. We have allready discussed the fact that beginning in the Punic Period NW African males carrying the M81 lineage began to conquer Iberia, where they had selective mating rights with Iberian women. Hence the infusion of SW European maternal genes such H1, V and H3 into the NW African gene pool. This is why you see blue-eyed Berbers today. Genetics tells us that blue-eyes are not indigenous to Africa.
Originally posted by e3b1c1:
what i know that today north africans m78 m81 and m34 mmost of them look like that guy in th right meANING caucasian thats all
e3b1c1
quote:Good observation. Wadi halfa is smack on the middle of important Nubian territory and as your daigram shows, clusters with so-called "sub-Saharans." And even without Cruciani, his diagram falls flat in terms of the 'Caucasid' Egypt model. The diagram looks like something from Brace 93. Eamining it, as always the Egyptians cluster first with other African populations, including north Africans. Brace lumped together a huge bloc of peoples as 'North African' including large blocs of the Sahara.
Originally posted by Evergreen:
quote:Evergreen Writes: The beautiful thing about this post from Evil Euro is that it predates the *2007 work by Crucianni et al. that demonstrates that haplogroup E-M78* derived in southern Egypt/Northern Sudan around the time frame of the Wadi Halfa people. As we can see from Evil Euro’s graph, these E-M78* people phonetically cluster with “Africa” (i.e., “Sub-Saharan” Africa) before clustering with any other group. We can see that the Australo-Melanesean (or “Generalized Moderns”) likewise cluster phenetically with “Sub-Saharan” samples.
Originally posted by Evil Euro:
[QUOTE]
Analysis based on 24 cranial measurements:
Evil Euro provided us with a gift!
*Tracing Past Human Male Movements in Northern/Eastern Africa and
Western Eurasia: New Clues from Y-Chromosomal Haplogroups E-M78
and J-M12
Fulvio Cruciani et al.
quote:Evergreen Writes: Good point, Zaharan. Keep up the good work with the visuals, it adds a nice touch.
Originally posted by zarahan:
[QUOTE]In addition he used some older Euros, who as his 2005 study shows, looked like Africans thereby applying the misleading impression that today's 'white' Europeans were close to the Egyptians. But its the older types who looked African to begin with anyway, that's why they are even on the same page as the Africans.
quote:A section of Fula in Cameroon appear to be a somewhat anomalous case, in their R1*-M173 markers, because it appears that they picked that lineage up from the vicinity of the central African corridor, likely in what is now part of Chad; some testing in Chad will verify this for sure. The marker is rare to absent in the majority of other western African Fulas, who carry E1b1a (E3a), and other E haplogroups generally most common in western African than elsewhere on the continent, like E1 and E2 markers. Note that even the Cameroonian Fulas, though sport considerable frequencies of R1* markers, still *predominantly* tested positive for the aforementioned typically western African Hg E markers.
Originally posted by zarahan:
Likewise on the Fulani, even though one study only referred to several northern Cameroonian groups as having R1 Y chromosones, that was translated in her blog into ALL Cameroonian males, another sly distortion.
quote:Apparently, the Fula intermingled with what might have been *nomadic* R1*-M173 bearers in the vicinity of the central Sahara, in their paths from western Sahara to the eastern areas of the Sahara. This explains why the Sudanese Fula groups seemed to have high frequencies of R1*-M173 (~54%) as well. But in Sudan, it appears that they exchanged gene pools with pre-existing E3b1 (~ 35%) bearing groups there, while still retaining some ancestry from the more western Saharan areas or else a western African origin point [as indicated by R1*-M173 (~ 54%) and E1 (12%) in Sudanese Fulani]. How has this been discerned? Well, if you look at the Fula groups bearing considerable frequencies of R1*-M173, be it the Sudanese ones or the Cameroonian ones, they all seem to have this feature of "reduced" E3a (E1b1a) representation than their more western African brethren, but the E1 -- which is again, typically found in western Africa -- is consistently represented and is understandable, in that fragmented & fairly low representations of this marker occur in central Saharan areas nearer to western African regions. Whereas E1 is fairly rare to absent in the eastern Sahara or eastern Africa, the Cameroonian Fula have considerable representation of E1 (~53%) as opposed to the Sudanese Fula (~12%). Apparetnly, the E1 in Sudanese Fula is working as a relic of their western African origin, however much negative drift it appears to have undergone in the Fula source [likely from the Cameroonian or Chadic area] that the Sudanese Fula came from. Unsurprisingly, the Burkina Faso Fula were strongly represented by E3a (~90%), and then E1 (~10%). See, E1 consistently appears, which means that E1 has been considerably represented in the Fulani's western African starting points, and from thereon, somewhere along the Central Sahara or the western vestiges of it, the nomadic Fulas picked up R1*-M173 markers. E3a is found in the Cameroonian Fula sample, but much less so than the Burkina Faso Fula -- ~ 6%, and completely disappears in the Sudanese Fula sample of Hassan et al. (2008). This is understandable to the extent that as one moves from western Africa towards eastern Africa along the Saharan belt, E3a starts to fade off in frequency. So, the Fula in northern Cameroon, being somewhat endogamous, appears to have undergone strong positive random genetic drift for R1*-M173, but even more so, for E1-M33, while E3a underwent reduced positive drift, if not a negative one. As they moved further east along the Sahara towards Sudan, E3a would essentially dift out, leaving the better represented E1 [as seen in the Cameroonian Fula] in observable frequencies but R1*-M173 in heightened frequencies. This means that the Sudanese Fula likely derived from just a section of the Cameroonian Fula group, where R1*-M173 was most frequent to begin with, and thus, being an offshoot and having undergone a bottleneck and associated genetic drift, they harbored less diversity than their western African source counterpart [likely in the vicinity of northern Cameroon]. Remember that the northern Cameroonian Fula were predominantly represented by E1, as opposed to E3a? Well, it appears that this made it more likely that E1 would survive in an offshoot of Cameroonian Fula than E3a would, given that E3a was reduced in the northern Cameroonian Fula; henceforth, we see E1 retained in Sudanese Fula, in an area where E1 is generally otherwise absent. It conforms to the rule that when a small segment of a population diverges from the main one, it generally sports only part of the diversity of the source population.
Originally posted by zarahan:
^^Thanks for that clarification and addition. So even the anomaly overall still shows predominant West African Hg E markers.. Damn.. Another of Madilda's sly disinformation gambits busted...
quote:Explorer, what do you make of new study by Tishkoff et al. They claim that the Dogon have ~ 1/3 "Eurasian" ancestry. The Beja ~ 1/4. I wonder if this is M173*?
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:A section of Fula in Cameroon appear to be a somewhat anomalous case, in their R1*-M173 markers, because it appears that they picked that lineage up from the vicinity of the central African corridor, likely in what is now part of Chad; some testing in Chad will verify this for sure.
Originally posted by zarahan:
Likewise on the Fulani, even though one study only referred to several northern Cameroonian groups as having R1 Y chromosones, that was translated in her blog into ALL Cameroonian males, another sly distortion.
quote:This too generates much curiosity from me, as the size invoked seems atypical of the western Sahel/sub-Sahara -- which I get a sense from your post, involves Hg R markers(?) What are the sampling premises here; sample size, sections of Mali sampled and the typed markers?
Originally posted by Evergreen:
Explorer, what do you make of new study by Tishkoff et al. They claim that the Dogon have ~ 1/3 "Eurasian" ancestry.
quote:
Originally posted by zarahan:
Got a question here for which the answer is probably scattered in a few threads. But for the sake of a recap..
. . . .
d) The Great Rift Valley extends across the Red Sea from east Africa. When did the Red Sea split appear roughly? Could conceptions of 'East Africa' or 'Northeast' Africa rightly include the other side of the Red Sea, with populations of INDIGENOUS 'East Africans' rightly seen as inhabiting today's 'Arab" side as well?
quote:Well what you wrote answered part of my question- apparently the split was long before any homid populations appeared, although given the gene movement out of Africa, I again wonder about this arbitrary identity of so-called 'Eurasia' and why it includes the Arabian penisula.
Originally posted by alTakruri:
My opinion for whatever it's worth begins here.
quote:
Originally posted by zarahan:
Got a question here for which the answer is probably scattered in a few threads. But for the sake of a recap..
. . . .
d) The Great Rift Valley extends across the Red Sea from east Africa. When did the Red Sea split appear roughly? Could conceptions of 'East Africa' or 'Northeast' Africa rightly include the other side of the Red Sea, with populations of INDIGENOUS 'East Africans' rightly seen as inhabiting today's 'Arab" side as well?
quote:
Originally posted by e3b1c1:
see the picture above put by evil euro put
it show you the splitt in pn2 30,000 years ago
great picture
it also show the splitt between the native american Q and the "european" haplogroup R
great god bless him
e3b1c1
quote:LMAO
Evergreen responded:
It is a good picture. But I'm not sure what your getting at? E3b split off from PN2 ~ 25,000 years ago. E3a split off from PN2 ~ 20,000 years ago. Both of these groups of people split off within tropical Africa and from a recent common ancestor. This is why we see affinities between E3b carrying populations in the Nile Valley at 15,000 years ago and E3a carrying populations today.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
quote:Evergreen Writes: Not only that but East Africans (including NE Africans) and West Africans share in the common maternal lineage L2a1. This lineages seems to have spread from the northern reaches of central Africa both east and west along the Sahel during the early Last Glacial Maximum (keep in mind that the LGM began earlier in Africa than in Europe or SW Asia). This may be when we see the split of E3a and E3b from ancestral PN2. I believe Explorer has blogged extensivly on this and can give us more insight.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QUOTE]He keeps repeating the same lie that of PN2 divergence 30,000 years ago, when it was actually 25,000 years ago and that it doesn't matter because E3b originated IN Africa among indigenous Africans i.e. BLACKS.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:Below is the online supplement, which includes materials, methods, samples, analysis, etc and is a good and extensive read in and of its self. It also covers a lot of your questions.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
I've only read abstracts of the study, as a freely available copy seems to be scarce. Any excerpts? Heck, if you have a link, I'd like to get my hands on it.
quote:The problem with your conclusion is that Brace later in 2005 had published a study in which he concluded that modern Europeans are not related to ancient neolithic North African populations but also are only loosely tied to the north or European Mediterranean neolithic populations. That is why he sent Bass that letter.
Originally posted by Evil Euro:
The Babbling Ape posted a link to an amateur Afronut site attempting to "refute" Brace's study. The only thing of any value there was a few excerpts from the study itself, which the monkey apparently forgot to scan for damaging evidence. Here's the most important one:
quote:Hence, Brace's own description of his craniometric plot supports my interpretation of the data -- namely that Somalis show greater affinities with Eurasians than with Sub-Saharans, and are not part of any "African cluster".
"As our data show, the people of the Horn of Africa are craniofacially less distinct from a spectrum of samples marginally including South Asia and running all the way from the Middle East to northwest Europe than they are to any group in sub-Saharan Africa." (Brace et al., 1993, p. 19)
Now let's recall what he said in his e-mail reply to Charlie Bass, in answer to the question of whether "elongated" morphology indicates Eurasian admixture:
quote:So after establishing that Horn people resemble Europeans and Middle Easterners (Caucasoids), he rejects the idea that they've acquired their appearance through admixture from these groups, maintaining instead that "elongated" morphology is native to East Africa. He then ends by reconfirming the distinctiveness of Horn people from Niger-Congo people (Negroids).
"As I see it, the appearances of the Upper Nile Valley and Horn people has little if anything to do with admixtures and much the result of in situ circumstances. The elongation of the nose is clearly a climate-induced phenomenon and takes a long time to manifest itself. The same thing is true for the reduction in tooth size which markedly distinguishes those people form the Niger-Congo people." (C. L. Brace, private correspondence)
His inescapable conclusion is therefore that indigenous East Africans resemble Caucasoids and not Negroids.
Of course, that's exactly what I've been saying all these months. It's what Dienekes has been saying all along. It's what Coon and other "outdated" anthropologists were observing when they postulated a Mediterranean presence in East Africa. And now, all have been vindicated by a modern source whom the Afronuts themselves trust and reference.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Don't hate - just celebrate!
quote:And I guess you noticed in that video by the way the women danced that it is just not humanly possible for them to be Europeans.lol!
Originally posted by The Gaul:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGocJkHTo2o&feature=PlayList&p=8225B42552926094&index=0
Hmmmmm, being a black Martian, where have I seen and heard this before? Eurasian culture? Nope. European? Nope again. Closer to eurasians and europeans? No sir!
Why do non-blacks try so hard to seperate black African people? Why can't all non-blacks be more like Djehuti? I don't agree with everything he says, but he has my full respect.
Why so many like Evil euro and AP? Why do they care about African people so much to distort and lie?
Interesting.