Nefertiti's 'love affair' with Moses to hit the silver screen
By AFP
Middle East Times
Published April 8, 2005

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A Hollywood flick on an alleged love affair between Pharaonic Queen Nefertiti and the Biblical Prophet Moses is soon to begin shooting in Egypt, renowned British producer John Heyman has revealed.

"Nefertiti married perhaps one of the first monotheists in history and the film will tell their story, which logically enough should be set in Egypt" said Heyman on a brief visit to Cairo.

"One can find in the Old Testament that Moses and Nefertiti had a relationship," he added.

The movie will also deal "with the return to the worship of the sun god", said Heyman.

He was referring to Aten - the radiant disk of the sun - whose cult was briefly re-introduced by Pharaoh Akhenaton, the 10th king of the 18th dynasty also known as the "heretic king" for breaking with traditional religion in the 1350s BC.

The cult of Aten is considered by some experts to be a predecessor of modern monotheism.

Scholars generally agree that Nefertiti, often referred to in history as the "most beautiful woman in the world", was Akhenaton's wife.

But few have argued that Akhenaton and Moses may have been the same man, although there is no consensus on their respective dates of birth and death.

Others contend that Ramses II, the third ruler of the 19th dynasty, was in fact Moses, while Jews believe that the Pharaoh king is responsible for their exodus from Egypt.

And founding father of psychoanalysis, Sigmund Freud, ventured his belief in Moses and Monotheism, published in 1939, that Moses was in fact an Egyptian follower of Aten that brought the monotheistic doctrine out of Egypt as Judaism when he led the Israelites away from slavery to freedom some 3,300 years ago.

Ahmed Osman, on whose 1990 book Moses and Akhenaton: The Secret History of Egypt at the Time of the Exodus the script of Heyman's next film is based, admitted that "my argument is controversial and not widespread among many Egyptologists".

"But I have collected evidence proving that Akhenaton and Moses are the same person, which so far nobody has been able to contest," said Egypt-born Osman, who has lived in London for the past 20 years where he studied Egypt's ancient history.

"Egypt's history is greatly ignored by the film industry besides Cleopatra and The Ten Commandments and that's it," said Heyman, referring to the two epic Hollywood blockbusters released more than 40 years ago.

The shoot "will not start before 2006 and locations will be between studios and along the Nile in Upper Egypt", he added.

Although he said it was too early to talk about the cast, Heyman said that he had met "several Egyptian actors who are very good and charming, warm and kind".

British director Hugh Hudson, the acclaimed director of Chariots of Fire, will direct the movie.

Heyman, who produced or co-financed major films such as Chinatown, The Rocky Horror Picture Show and Marathon Man, is also known for creating the Genesis project - a scholarly endeavor to put all the Hebrew and Christian scriptures on film.

He also produced Jesus, filmed on location in Israel in Biblical settings and subsequently translated in more than 850 languages.

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Others contend that Ramses II, the third ruler of the 19th dynasty, was in fact Moses
[B][/B]

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Originally posted by BigMix:
what is this, a cheap spinoff of the da vinci code. yikes.

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LOL!!!

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Originally posted by zulu:
Actually, the idea of Akhenaton and Moses being the same person isn't a new idea.

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Some authors in Egypt go so far as to say Akenaten was the patriarch of Abraham,and that he was the first Hanif of the Quran. Don't know is any of these theoriest are true except nothing is really conrete in Egyptology.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
I agree ausar , It is simply distant memories of the Hyksos expulsion.

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What evidence do you have, to bring you to that conclusion?

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
I'm not presenting it as a proven fact super car....IF there is any validity to it at all it has to be something like that because there is no evidence. Filkenstein thinks that might be the case but who knows

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Well, I agree that there are many theories out there about the Exodus, and that nothing can be proven, as of yet, as 'absolute' fact. However, there are some theories that take archeological and literal evidence into account more so than others, to construct the possible conditions under which an Exodus might have occurred. This is what sets some theories from others; the level of supporting evidence. That there is no outright evidence of the exodus, doesn't mean that it never happened. After all, there were people called the Isrealites, who no doubt, can be traced back to Egypt. Today, the people who claim an Isrealite descent, are in that region.

Moses was Moses
Ahkenaton was Akhenaton
Abraham was Abraham

All the rest is speculation
and kindred to penis envy.

Both of these civs can stand
on their own and the Hebrew
readily admits its debt to
the Egyptian as far as learning
and formation into a nation.

Yet the Hebrew is distinct as
even a child is distinct from
its parents and has its own
unique contribution in the
world.

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Originally posted by alTakruri~:
It goes like this:

Moses was Moses
Ahkenaton was Akhenaton
Abraham was Abraham

All the rest is speculation
and kindred to penis envy.

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Hmm. Wonder what Sigmund Freud - aka - Akhenation was Moses - would say about that?

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Originally posted by rasol:
Hmm. Wonder what Sigmund Freud - aka - Akhenation was Moses - would say about that?

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Originally posted by Thought2:
[B][/B]

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What are some of the circumstantial evidence that connect moses as akhenaton and Ramases II as the exodous pharoh?

Moses is a common Ancient Egyptian 'surname' (Freud also points this out). It was about as common in Ancient Egypt as the surname "Murphy" is in Ireland.
Names were also political:
AtonMoses - "Son of Aton" - belonging to the house of Aton
**AmonMoses - "Son of Amon"
PtahMoses - "Son of Ptah"
Moses - a male child; but not identified with any god.

Speculation:
Forget the focus on Ikhnaton alone, every historical movement is more than one man. It's possible that the followers of the revival of the old monotheism, following the successful revolt of the powerful priests of Amon, dropped the revealing "Aton" while refusing to identify themselves as 'belonging to Amon' and these disciples of the religion kept it alive in the 'soil' where it would best grow and develop.

Clue:
After the counterrevolution, Tutankhaten changed his name to Tutankhamen...

**and this is for Horemheb; it would be correct to say km.Amon.Moses or 'Belonging to the house of the Black ("the good god") Amon

When the vowels of the Phoenician Sun God Adonai were added, YHWH became Y(A)H(O)W(A)H, which finally became “JEHOVAH,” which translates “I am” and “The Eternal One” in Hebrew. The Hebrew word is “hawah,” from which the name YHWH is derived. “Hawah” means “existence,” or "to be." Amen also means “so be it”-Numbers 5:22. Some have claimed Pharaoh Akhenaton had phoenician blood. Akhenaton brought on the worship of Aton which is another word for Adon (sun). Jesus called followers “Children of Light”.

The Biblical account of Exodus states that the prophet Moses was personally ordered – by his God – to initiate the great Israelite exodus-from-Egypt plan. At this Moses asks the rather odd question: “If I go to the Israelites and tell them that the God of their forefathers has sent me to them, and they ask me his name, what shall I say?” The celebrated and awesome reply, recorded in Exodus 3:14, is: “I AM, THAT (IS WHO) I AM...You must tell the Israelites this, that it is Jehovah the God of their forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Jacob, who has sent you to them.” In Egypt the word Am means Sun. Psalm 84:11 says god is a sun

The actual spelling of the forbidden sacred name transliterates as “YHWH” – but “Jehovah” is the form in which the name “I am” is generally read. At this point an intriguing linguistic possibility springs to mind:

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Originally posted by kingtut33:
When the ancient Hebrew lexicographers added vowels to YHWH, they borrowed the vowels of the powerful Egyptian and Phoenician Sun God deities. When the vowels of the Egyptian Sun God Aten were added, YHWH became Y(A)HW(E)H...dah, dah, dah

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kingtut33, kingtut33...

One of the oldest names for "God" in the Mdu Ntr is "Yah" (Iah;Jah)(EWB).
This is God with the big "G"!
The etymology of "Yahweh" (IE, "Yahw") is therefore to be found in the original monotheistic concept that originated in Nile Valley Civilization, and, as Budge's evidence suggests, before either the Hebrews or the 18th Egyptian dynasty even existed. It's ironic that those who believe the Exodus story, seem to ignore that the Hebrew nation existed in Ancient Egypt for 300 plus years and therefore the Hebrews were, at least by symbiosis, Ancient Egyptians.)

Attempting to understand the origin and concepts of Monotheism, including its terminologies, by beginning with the Hebrews, is the same as attempting to understand the origin and concepts of Civilization by beginning with the Greeks.

As Spock would say, "It's not logical Captain..."

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Amen also means “so be it”-

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This is one of those phrases that 'Bible folk' repeat like a catechism. It's completely incorrect of course;
Amen is a Mdu Ntr word that means 'hidden, concealed, mysterious, incomprehensible...' and was used in the Hebrew text to refer to the God Amen (for whatever reason) at the end of a prayer and stuff. "Blah, blah, blah - Amen."

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Originally posted by Wally:
And furthermore...

This is one of those phrases that 'Bible folk' repeat like a catechism. It's completely incorrect of course;
Amen is a Mdu Ntr word that means 'hidden, concealed, mysterious, incomprehensible...' and was used in the Hebrew text to refer to the God Amen (for whatever reason) at the end of a prayer and stuff. "Blah, blah, blah - Amen."

And, for those who really care about this small stuff; look in Revelations where it says something like "and he called God by his name The Amen." - something like that.
Check it out...

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Although both are Afrasan languages Hebrew and AEL are different and
all roots do not have the same meaning across the two.

Taking Hebrew on Hebrew terms -- certainly without regard to the Greek
Scriptures (New Testament) which is in no way a Hebrew book or true to
Hebrew concepts -- we find that '-M-N is related to '-M-T (truth) and
'-M-N-H (faith).

Where '-M-N refers to a god, that god is EL. '-M-N is 'el melekh ne`eman
meaning God faithful king.

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alTakruri~ wrote:
Although both are Afrasan languages Hebrew and AEL are different and
all roots do not have the same meaning across the two.

Taking Hebrew on Hebrew terms -- certainly without regard to the Greek
Scriptures (New Testament) which is in no way a Hebrew book or true to
Hebrew concepts -- we find that '-M-N is related to '-M-T (truth) and
'-M-N-H (faith).

Where '-M-N refers to a god, that god is EL. '-M-N is 'el melekh ne`eman
meaning God faithful king.

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Here's the mechanical, rote translation of two so-called 'Semitic' words;

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baraka: Quality of blessedness or grace found characteristically in marabouts (qv.) and other divinely favored persons. Also, charisma that endows the blessed with a special capacity to rule.

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and...

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amen:This Hebrew word means firm, and hence also faithful (Rev. 3:14). In Isa. 65:16, the Authorized Version has "the God of truth," which in Hebrew is "the God of Amen." It is frequently used by our Saviour to give emphasis to his words, where it is translated "verily."

example from Revelations: LAODICEA;'Write to the angel of the church in Laodicea and say, "Here is the message of the Amen, the faithful, the true witness, the ultimate source of God's creation:

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These "Semitic" words, like most that deal with ideology are word ideas borrowed from the Mdu Ntr.

--Baraka is plainly and clearly derived from the Mdu Ntr words Ba-Ra-Ka including the concepts used to describe the 'Arabic definition' in the above. In fact, in the Mdu Ntr, "Baraka" means 'to bless'

--The 'Hebrew' concepts of Amen, Iman, Imani, et al derive from the Mdu Ntr concepts surrounding the terms Amen, Maa.t, etc. You could write a chapter on this one...

Hebrew and Arabic may have took their own turn as they emerged, but their philosophical concepts (ie, ideology) clearly derive from the Ancient Egyptians, especially the Hebrews, unless of course they were all brain dead during their 400 years 'captivity' in Egypt...

Also; "Afro-Asiatic" or "Afrasan" language is more of a political terminology rather than a scientific one, I think...
Ancient Egyptian, Cushitic, et al, should all be classified under Negro-African languages. Hebrew, Arabic, et al, should be classified as AfroAsiatic (neo-African?) languages.

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Originally posted by jack9999:
A very detailed analysis can be found in 'The Head of God' by Keith Laidler (Orion paperbacks, 1998). This shows that Akaheton and Moses were the same person. It will be interesting to hear from those who have read it and can comment on his analysis.

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The problem with this, and with this subject in general is that it assumes something which has yet to be proved!

Ikhnation was a very real historical figure. He existed. And he certainly would not have been the one who crossed the Red Sea at the head of the Hebrews. So, in that sense, he certainly wasn't "Moses". On the other hand;

This Moses fella is a legendary figure! And for Christians and Jews, he is a very popular legend (it's why they make these movies in the first place), but a legend just the same. So, the wise thing to do first is to establish whether or not there was ever a real figure who was "Moses" who lead this trek out of Africa...

(Freud thinks there were several of these "Moses"...)

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Originally posted by Wally:

--Baraka is plainly and clearly derived from the Mdu Ntr words Ba-Ra-Ka including the concepts used to describe the 'Arabic definition' in the above. In fact, in the Mdu Ntr, "Baraka" means 'to bless'

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Originally posted by Wally:

Hebrew and Arabic may have took their own turn as they emerged, but their philosophical concepts (ie, ideology) clearly derive from the Ancient Egyptians, especially the Hebrews, unless of course they were all brain dead during their 400 years 'captivity' in Egypt...

Also; "Afro-Asiatic" or "Afrasan" language is more of a political terminology rather than a scientific one, I think...
Ancient Egyptian, Cushitic, et al, should all be classified under Negro-African languages. Hebrew, Arabic, et al, should be classified as AfroAsiatic (neo-African?) languages.

[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 21 April 2005).]

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It's clear that all later cultures in the vicinity borrowed from Kmt.
More or less in a parent-child type relation but that doesn't make the
child a non-imaginative replica unable of original thought.

I used to sell 3 books on Hebrew-Egyptian relations showing some borrowings
in addition to what borrowings the Hebrews themselves left on record in
the Gemara.

Sugden, Edward H
Israel's Debt to Egypt

Oesterley. W.O.E.
The Wisdom of Egypt & the Old Testament

Peet, T. Eric
Egypt and the Old Testament

They were re-published in the 1980's by the Ghanian panAfricanist G.K. Osei.
They still make good research material and can easily be incorporated into
anything similar around today remembering that of course we know more
now than they knew 3/4 of a century ago.

In the Gemara the Israelite Sages discuss the word used for "I"
in the Decalogue, '-N-K-Y. The question is asked, "What kind of word
is anokhi?" To which the response is, "An Egyptian word."

If '-M-N was from the Egyptian it would have come out in the points and
counterpoints in the writings of the early Hebrew scholars. At least
that's what I think. Besides that, are there any examples in AEL of simply
stating Amen's name at the end of a prayer? Does any religion simply state
a god's name at the end of prayer without using in soe sensible phrase?

'-M-N and the seven other words from the root are words indicative of
support, firm belief, confidence, trust, confirmation, covenant,
tutelage, and even a column or an artificer.

These are word meanings. Does the AEL word for the god Amen bear these
meanings as found in a lexicon?

Again the GREEK Scripture is a bad place to learn or draw examples of
HEBREW language, culture or custom.

Yes there are two schools on African languages. The Greenberg/mainstream one, which
is vering toward using the term Afrasan, and the Obenga school which very
politically leaves Tamazight and Semitic as unrelated to Afrasan. I'm
probably wrong but it seems political natured in keeping with
"foreign" Berber and Arab invasions of the continent and the societal
norms Obenga's mentor Diop experienced in Senegal.

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Originally posted by Super car:
Originally posted by Wally:
--Baraka is plainly and clearly derived from the Mdu Ntr words Ba-Ra-Ka including the concepts used to describe the 'Arabic definition' in the above. In fact, in the Mdu Ntr, "Baraka" means 'to bless'

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Yes, in Hebrew today b*rakha is the word for a blessing! Is there an
AEL word baraka in the AEL lexicon? Thanks in advance for any help
you can give

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alTakruri~ :
Yes, in Hebrew today b*rakha is the word for a blessing! Is there an
AEL word baraka in the AEL lexicon? Thanks in advance for any help
you can give

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(EWB)
bareka(204a) to bless
baraka (204b) to bow the knee in homage
bareka (204b) gift, present, tribute

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alTakruri~ :
In the Gemara the Israelite Sages discuss the word used for "I"
in the Decalogue, '-N-K-Y. The question is asked, "What kind of word
is anokhi?" To which the response is, "An Egyptian word."

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Anuk (60a) I; Coptic - Anok
Anuki (") "

I used this before, in an example which shows how it is used in Coptic:
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Anok dé ang oukamê...je ang oukamê anok.
"But as for me (Anok dé), I am (ang) black (ou-kamê)...that (je) I am black."
-- Ancient Egyptian: A Linguistic Introduction, Antonio Lopriano, Cambridge University Press, 1995; P131-5.8 (150)
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alTakruri~ :
It's clear that all later cultures in the vicinity borrowed from Kmt.
More or less in a parent-child type relation but that doesn't make the
child a non-imaginative replica unable of original thought.

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Oh, I agree absolutely. It's just that the concept of Monotheism and its related philosophy was not one of those later cultures' original thoughts...

** http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001897.html

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Originally posted by Wally:
It's really good to have you back. You bring a tremendous amount of useful info to this **forum...

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Originally posted by sokarya_686@hotmail.com:
How on earth can anyone deny the Exodus from Egypt when it is before our very eyes. The bible tells us of l3 years of toil followed by the Exodus. Archaeology tells of l3 years of toil building Akhenatons City, followed by a mass exodus.

That WAS the Exodus. No other is recorded elsewhere. Charlie

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My friend,
It may come to you as a Revelation(!) but not everyone takes the Bible literally. It is therefore easy to question this biblical tale. There are those who, for example, do not take literally the tale of Jonah cavorting inside the belly of a Whale. This is a fable for God's sake.
The Bible, as its name indicates is a collection of books by various authors, which contains a wealth of accumulated wisdom, has affected the thoughts and habits of countless millions of people, and should therefore be read by every intelligent person on earth (as well as the Koran). However, one should be able to distinguish fact from fable, a moral tale from one which is simply erotic; the Bible has all of this and then some but...

the Ancient Egyptians never held any collective nationality or people in slavery, and never for 400 years. It never had a system built on slavery.

and I don't care what your Bible says...

I myself believe in the Bible, but you have too be cautious in how you interpret things and not to take things to literally. There are just many stories, mostly in the Old Testament and especially in Genesis that seem to be taken symbolically. It's obvious that many stories in the Bible have facts in them and are based in fact. Many scholars have used the Bible to help uncover many historical facts about the ancient Near-East, but that's about far as it goes.

And in any rate, I find the whole Nefertiti and Moses affair to be totally absurd. I already found the Akhenaton-Moses connection to be far-fetched but this one takes the cake!