posted
On another topic, I think I may have inadvertently stumbled upon something. Now this is a preliminary assessment since the figures are small, and I intend to check and verify, but if I'm correct, I will certainly add this to my own website...
Refer to: R: Temple Furniture & Sacred Emblems; image #10
quote:Originally posted by rasol: I really respect your research efforts Wally.
The mdw ntr isn't my forte, so I'm not sure I can be of much help to you, but will see what I can do.
Looking at the hieroglyphic, if the figure on the right is the same as J: Reptiles and amphibians #6, and the figure on the left is an Offering table - not shown by Gardner's list but is shown by Budge's list, then we have a lock! It would definitely be Kha Nter kem...
"Under a Black God"
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 03 February 2005).]
posted
Wally knows that this is his territory, given the considerable research he's given to this line of study. Nevertheless, it is always fun to explore more.
Questions:
Which symbols are you reading as "kha", and respectively "Nter" and "Kem"? I am aware of what some of these words mean, but their actual symbols isn't as clear. Moreover, which direction are you reading the symbols; as you know hieroglyphics could be read from top to bottom or visa versa, or else left to right or visa versa?
posted
Some of those earlier questions must be somewhat loaded. But this creative link does provide some starters, of course, with the courtesy of the thread author: http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/black_lang.html
Still trying to get my hands on the complete budge publication.
quote:Originally posted by Super car: Wally knows that this is his territory, given the considerable research he's given to this line of study. Nevertheless, it is always fun to explore more.
Questions:
Which symbols are you reading as "kha", and respectively "Nter" and "Kem"? I am aware of what some of these words mean, but their actual symbols isn't as clear. Moreover, which direction are you reading the symbols; as you know hieroglyphics could be read from top to bottom or visa versa, or else left to right or visa versa?
The symbol in the middle that looks like a flag - "Nter" - is 'facing' left, so we read from left to right. If it were facing right, then we would read from right to left...
The symbol on the right, which seems to be a piece of charcoal is the symbol "kem" - black
Nter kem means exactly "Black God"
The symbol of an Offering tray, also used for the letter "G" is Kha; to be under, subservient to, 'to serve', etc...
I still need to see a larger, more detailed image to be absolutely sure. I'm working on that one.
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 03 February 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Wally: The symbol in the middle that looks like a flag - "Nter" - is 'facing' left, so we read from left to right. If it were facing right, then we would read from right to left...
The symbol on the right, which seems to be a piece of charcoal is the sybol "kem" - black
Nter kem means exactly "Black God"
The symbol of an Offering tray, also used for the letter "G" is Kha; to be under, subservient to, 'to serve', etc...
posted
Stumbled is the correct term Wally. I find it interesting that you found this and dozens of Egyptologists and archeologists have somehow missed it over the last 200 years. There have been some wacky posts on this board but this one ranks way up there. Do you have any idea what you are reading?
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posted
Wally, I need you to help me out here. I see a list of glyphs, but I don't see where you're getting Kha-Nter-kem. Have you seen this phrase somewhere in context?
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posted
Kem, This is a great example of what we have been talking about. Wally is not a specialist in Egyptian writing but he has just enough knowledge to be dangerous. Sincxe he is not a specialist in the field he jumps at ideas about which he knows little.
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quote:Originally posted by HERU: In that case Horemheb, you're harmless.
Maybe, but he got me good with his last post. When I saw the topic had been updated, I thought it was someone like Wally or Surpercar with an answer to my question. Then I saw it was Horemheb. Oh well, I couldn't help but laugh.
posted
O.K., now, I'm absolutely certain that the first glyph is Kha, and there's no question about the middle one, Kha-Nter-? , so I''ll need you all with the good eyes.
quote:Originally posted by Kem-Au: Wally, I need you to help me out here. I see a list of glyphs, but I don't see where you're getting Kha-Nter-kem. Have you seen this phrase somewhere in context?
Look at my last posting, that's the complete phrase referenced there. As I've stated, I had never seen this one before and it's very interesting.
There's a Kemetian expression Ankh, Djed, Udjai! life, strength, health!, but it's not a determinative - and as you can see by viewing the list, a three glyph determinative is rare... And everyone, please ignore the idiot, or we'll never accomplish anything here...
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 04 February 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Wally: O.K., now, I'm absolutely certain that the first glyph is Kha, and there's no question about the middle one, Kha-Nter-? , so I''ll need you all with the good eyes.
These all would mean different things of course, but here's the Coptic equivalent of my preliminary assessment:
"Kha Noute Kmom"
Let me know what you think...
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 04 February 2005).]
OK, I see what you mean now. I first thought the image represented a single glyph, but at closer inspection, it does appear to be 3 different symbols.
The one on the far right is definitely KM. Of course you know that there are differing opinions as to what the glyph represents (burnt stick, crocs tail, charcoal, etc), but it's meaning is known.
Anyway, interesting find. You may be on to something.
quote:Originally posted by Wally: Look at my last posting, that's the complete phrase referenced there. As I've stated, I had never seen this one before and it's very interesting.
There's a Kemetian expression Ankh, Djed, Udjai! life, strength, health!, but [b]it's not a determinative - and as you can see by viewing the list, a three glyph determinative is rare... And everyone, please ignore the idiot, or we'll never accomplish anything here...
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 04 February 2005).][/B]
I thought it was a determinant when I first saw it. It looked like a mountain with a flag between to cliffs. But when I clicked the image it got bigger and I could see the three glyphs.
quote:Originally posted by Kem-Au: I thought it was a determinant when I first saw it. It looked like a mountain with a flag between to cliffs. But when I clicked the image it got bigger and I could see the three glyphs.
You clicked it and it got bigger?? Please, tell me how you do it.
(also, I meant to write "Ankh, Udjau, Snb", Djed is used in "Ankh, Djed, Wose" ...)
But do tell us how you got that thing to grow, I've been tryin'...
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Of the choices given it looks most like N29.
If you are correct then the glyph = a hillside (a determinative) and the letter "q": the word Kha-Nter-q doesn't really mean anything but the word Kha-Nter-(hillside) would mean "Under God ( 's hillside )" - ie, a cemetery --
This is a plausible reading, however, I wish to share with you a couple of relevant responses from alTakruri :
a) first email
quote: Wally
I think Gardiner R10 is Xr ntr and means necropolis.
b) second email
quote: Nix that necropolis meaning. Saw it in a bad translation of a text from a tomb wall where the glyph occurs. The phonetic xr ntr still seems correct and something on the order of good or great god appears more in order. If that one part of the glyph is in fact km then it does bear a secondary meaning of complete or perfect symbolized in the color black.
Note: Xr is written "Kr" for "khari, kha" Coptic: Kha Noute ...
quote: xr ntr still seems correct and something on the order of good or great god appears more in order. If that one part of the glyph is in fact km then it does bear a secondary meaning of complete or perfect symbolized in the color black.
Makes sense. Al Takuri is missed on the forum, though I don't blame him one bit for moving on, especially after the board-wipe fiasco.
Hey, Egyptsearch is what it is. For better or worse.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Makes sense. Al Takuri is missed on the forum, though I don't blame him one bit for moving on, especially after the board-wipe fiasco.
Hey, Egyptsearch is what it is? For better or worse.
That is what people like Horemheb set out to do; to chase well-meaning people from the board. When this happens, then they feel that they've accomplished their goal. They can't handle facts, and so the alternative is to flame every single topic with unrelated geopolitical nonsense. It is up to these well-meaning folks to show trollers, that their presence (of trollers) has no bearing whatsoever on their (well-meaning posters) participation or objectives!
AlTakuri didn't leave voluntarily. I didn't mention it because it was, at the time, besides the point, but he did include the notation; "id still locked out"
So, what's up with that? Ausar, do you know what happened?
and rasol... I tried your recommendation about zooming the image...no, workee!
Could you enlarge it, cut and paste it and email it to me. I'll put a special access page on my website, then we can all see an enlarged view. Thanx...
And does anyone else have a larger image of this hieroglyph?
wally_mo@yahoo.com
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 05 February 2005).]
posted
I use Netscape 7.2, and when I put my mouse over the image a magnifying glass came up. Once I clicked it, it got bigger.
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quote:Originally posted by Kem-Au: I use Netscape 7.2, and when I put my mouse over the image a magnifying glass came up. Once I clicked it, it got bigger.
The under.god:hill is a magnificent interpretation, very insightful, and appears to be correct for the necropolis meaning of R10. I too am now inclined to see this glyph as a combo of three glyphs;
the first being a biliteral,
T28 Xr
the second a triliteral,
R8 nTr
and the third a determinative
N29 q
which is sometimes relaced by the x3st glyph (three hills.
There are at least eight variations, R10 through R10H, for Xr nTr. Sometimes neither the q nor the x3st is used and the maat feather is there instead. Then, sometimes maat is there along with either the q or the x3st. In one instance, maat tops q with ntr beside it and the both of them cradled within D36 (a) or is it D40 (xnt).
Although I find the great amount of attention given to the distractors disconcerting, especially when those responding to them lower themselves by using the same ignorant tactics, overall the Egypt & Egyptology forum of EgyptSearch is still a good tool for folk like us are informed amateurs with very valid points to make and queries leading to new insights.
I can only continue to wish the ignorant detractors were just ignored instead of dominating the board as they do, for instance the immediate 50 or so replies to the inappropriately named Building Bridges thread.
I can only continue to hope that someday the serious board members will only reply to on topic critiques only answering those who present themselves academically without hatred, race baiting, name calling, socio political roorag, and other non civil and unprofessional presentations, instead of wasting time and disheartening myself along with who knows how many silent lurkers by voluntarily soiling themselves to get down in the mud with the muck rakers. I know its hard not to let them dominate, I have been guilty of foolishly chasing their chimeras at times myself.
posted
As alTakruri agrees, the "hillside" can be used as a determinative, but I'm still not totally convinced (but not un-convinced either); and here's why:
It's the only instance, that I am aware of where the "hillside glyph" is used as a determinative for "Under God"
Budge; 533b (xst) - Khas.t (khast) - necropolis on the hills
I think - "Xr-nTr-?" represents an expression similar to - "Ankh, Udjau, Snb" - Life! Health! Strength!
I also believe that you get a better understanding of a word when it is translated literally, rather than being merely translated:
Ex: "Sit Nafret" Translation - Cemetery Literal translation - "A good (perfect, wonderful) place" - it gives a better insight into how the Kememu view death, don't you think...
And so too with the word "Under God" followed with the determinative "Khast" to suggest that death is a 'foreign;different' place or state...
The "hillside" determinant doesn't seem to quite fit, which doesn't prove anything of course, because there are probably many **"sic(!)" expressions in all languages...
**latin term signifying a copy reads exactly as the original; indicates a possible mistake in the original.
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 06 February 2005).]
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