posted
It seems, judging by some posts on this forum, that anyone who makes the claim that the people and civilization of Ancient Egypt were Black Africans, is an Afrocentric. If that is the criteria, then the following are Afrocentrists:
The Ancient Egyptians
The Ancient Greeks Herodotus Aristotle Lucian Apollodorus Aeschylus
The Ancient Romans Strabo Diodorus of Sicily Diogenes Laertius Ammanius Marcellinus
France Count Constatine de Volney Marius Fontanes - "Les Egyptes"
England EW Budge - "Keeper of the Egyptian and Assyrian Antiquities, British Museum"
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...and this list doesn't even begin to cover the many "white" and "colored" Afrocentrists whose peer-reviewed and up-to-date studies, are further indicators of aforementioned fact. The scientific community (Afrocentrists) have moved on; that primitive-age thinking is behind "most" of us. Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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Wally, before you can use all of those people to back up your points you have to have read the 'original' sources and have enough education to understand what you are reading.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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For Heru: The easiest way to show you is to post picture of East Africans whom fit the facial profile of some of the AE (that you think are non-black) but are definitely black/negro...
East and North East Africans:
Kinky or tightly curled hair is common sight among East Africans. Occasional straight or wavy hair is found among them, but nothing like the European texture.
(courtesy of MediaEthiopia)
Very young Upper Egyptian
Another Upper Egyptian
Upper Egyptians (noticeably wear different shades of blue clothing more so, than other colors)
Posts: 318 | From: PA. USA | Registered: Jan 2005
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...also from France Pierre Montet, an unintentional Afrocentric
quote: The men...had clearly defined features, prominent eyes, usually large, almost flat, noses, thickish lips and somewhat low foreheads (uuummm, prognathism!). Such were without exception the kings of Egypt at the time of the old Kingdom. --Eternal Egypt, p25, 1964
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 28 January 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Wally what passages are being cited from the Kebra Nagast and Tanakh?
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 28 January 2005).]
1-The Tanakh is pretty much the same as the five books of Moses; well, actually it is the first five books of the Bible - Book 1, Genesis - re: Ham's progeny; Egypt, the Land of Ham; etc.
2-The Kebra Nagast in telling the story of Moses' wife; and Miriam and Aaron protesting because "He (Moses) has taken a wife who is not of his color, who is moreover Black, since he has married the daughter of the Pharaoh."
In the Christian bible they (M&A) spake against Moses because he married an Ethiopian woman (ie, a Black woman; an Egyptian woman)- this was a way of accusing Moses of "selling out" by "sleeping with the enemy"; marrying a member of the ruling class...
In any event, these two renditions echo each other...
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 28 January 2005).]
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continuing the saga of Noble AfroCentric writings..
Champollion-Figeac - Upon his discovering the first of the "Mural of the Races", which is, according to professor Diop, "the oldest complete ethnological document available."
quote: I found it in several (royal tombs). The variations I observed fully convinced me that they had tried to represent the inhabitants of the four corners of the earth, according to the Egyptian system, namely: 1. the inhabitants of Egypt... 2. the inhabitants of Africa proper: Blacks 3. Asians 4. finally (and I am ashamed to say so, since our race is the last and the most savage in the series), ...In this category we must include all blonds and white-skinned people living in Europe, but Asia as well...on the other tombs the same generic names reappear, always in the same order. We find Egyptians and Africans represented the same way...
Emile Clement Amélineau
quote: From various Egyptian legends, I have been able to conclude that the populations settled in the Nile Valley were Negroes, since the goddess Isis was said to have been a reddish-black woman...
Emile Clement Amélineau - continues
quote: it is striking that the goddess Isis, according to the legend, has precisely the same skin color that Nubians always have, and that the god Osiris has an *ethnic epithet indicating his Nubian origin. Apparently this observation has never been made before...
Emile Clement Amélineau - concludes
quote: Egyptian civilization is not of Asiatic, but of African origin, of Negroid origin, however paradoxical this may seem. **We are not accustomed, in fact, to endow the Black or related races with too much intelligence...Yet, there is not a single tribe inhabiting the African interior that has not possessed and does not still possess at least one of these first discoveries (necessary to create a civilization)...
--- *Osiris Ani: Osiris the Anu **This same ideology has been expressed on this forum --- Champollion-Figeac, Egypte ancienne Emile Clement Amélineau, Prolégomènes à l'étude de la religion égyptienne
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 29 January 2005).]
quote: Egyptian civilization is not of Asiatic, but of African origin, of Negroid origin, however paradoxical this may seem. **We are not accustomed, in fact, to endow the Black or related races with too much intelligence
**This same ideology has been expressed on this forum
The difference of course being that Amélineau was an intelligent person. Intelligent people can sometimes set bias aside and confront the truth, even if it is not what they expected or wish to believe.
Less intelligent persons' use ignorance as a shield to guard their minds against knowledge. We should pity them...humor them, but don't hate...while we strive always to learn more.
Knowledge is true power. Good post.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 29 January 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Wally: ...also from France [b]Pierre Montet, an unintentional Afrocentric
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 28 January 2005).][/B]
Wally ALL serious egyptologist know the truth. Some are just in denial and some are just playing along so that they are allowed to continue their research by not offending the present Arab government of modern Egypt This Arab government want to continue the false notion that they (arabs) actually had something to do with the development Ancient Egypt.
Its just a matter of semantics and euphemisms to distort truth! This is the most dangerous form of lying as well as lying by omission!
[This message has been edited by Keins (edited 29 January 2005).]
Posts: 318 | From: PA. USA | Registered: Jan 2005
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What I find disturbing, is the idea that Ancient Egypt is not as diligently taught in Egypt, for a people with a history like that. One would think that a heritage like this would make them (Egyptians) fervent supporters of their distinct identity. I understand that they are some people who are trying to revive that distinct identity. But with the prospect of facing the small ruling Arab elite, they have some challenges ahead.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:What I find disturbing, is the idea that Ancient Egypt is not as diligently taught in Egypt, for a people with a history like that..... I understand that they are some people who are trying to revive that distinct identity. But with the prospect of facing the small ruling Arab elite, they have some challenges ahead.
posted
Was Marius Fontanes a ticked off Afrocentric?
quote: The ancient Egyptians were Negroes, but Negroes to the last degree. --Les Egyptes, pp 44-45.
Whew!! Did they barely make the cut or what???
Gaston Maspero (1846-1916) was a leading expert on Egyptian art and the Head of the Antiquities Service in Cairo for twenty years...blah, blah, blah......
quote: By the almost unanimous testimony of ancient historians, they belonged to an African race which first settled in Ethiopia, on the Middle Nile; following the course of the river, they gradually reached the sea. ... --Histoire ancienne des peuples de l'Orient, p. 15
...
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 30 January 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by rasol: You mean the ancients were consistant with the primary texts from the AE?
Moreover, that both are consistant with the modern archeological findings? Linguistic? Molecular genetics...all concuring?
Can't be! If that were the case, there would be no controversy...no mystery.
LOL. One could find among confessions (if one really wanted to) of these early 20th century scholars and historians, the acknowledgement of reality, even if they don't necessarily appear to like the idea. Even those who pretend not to be aware of the facts, do so out of the agenda of denying others the satisfaction of enjoying the facts. I mean, I can sit here and know the facts deep down, and yet openly deny it to someone else, simply because I can do so. It is that simple.
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Wally, before you can use all of those people to back up your points you have to have read the 'original' sources and have enough education to understand what you are reading.
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: It is obvious that East Africans have a substantial amount of Caucasian and/or Mongoloid genes. Two eyes in one's head are all that is needed to see that. That may well be why they were able to build a complex society like Nubia and make a contribution to ancient egypt as well.
Initially, I thought that maybe you were just misinformed or just reluctant to shed yourself of outdated ideas, but now we all know what your true problem is.
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: It is obvious that East Africans have a substantial amount of Caucasian and/or Mongoloid genes. Two eyes in one's head are all that is needed to see that. *****That may well be why they were able to build a complex society like Nubia and make a contribution to ancient egypt as well****.
So please, no more of your self-righteous dribble.. Class is no longer in session prof. you failed.
Posts: 142 | From: University Height, NJ, USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Wally, before you can use all of those people to back up your points you have to have read the 'original' sources and have enough education to understand what you are reading.
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: It is obvious that East Africans have a substantial amount of Caucasian and/or Mongoloid genes. Two eyes in one's head are all that is needed to see that. That may well be why they were able to build a complex society like Nubia and make a contribution to ancient egypt as well.
Initially, I thought that maybe you were just misinformed or just reluctant to shed yourself of outdated ideas, but now we all know what your true problem is.
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: It is obvious that East Africans have a substantial amount of Caucasian and/or Mongoloid genes. Two eyes in one's head are all that is needed to see that. *****That may well be why they were able to build a complex society like Nubia and make a contribution to ancient egypt as well****.
So please, no more of your self-righteous dribble.. Class is no longer in session prof. you failed.
I AGREE.WHITES HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH NUBIA OR EGYPT BEING BUILT.RACIST FALSE RESEARCHERS COULD TRY TO SAY THAT THE BLACKS OF EGYPT HAD WHITE BLOOD AND THEY FIRST BUILD EGYPT BUT WHEN IT COME TO NUBIA,THERE WERE NO WHITE GENES OR WHITE BLOOD IN THE BLACKS WHO BUILT NUBIA.THE NUBIANS OF UPPER NUBIA REMAINED FULL BLOOD BLACKS FOR A LONG TIME,BUT THERE WERE SOME THAT MIX IN LOWER NUBIA IN THE LOWER CLASSES OF AND ON UNTIL VERY LATE ANCIENT TIMES THAN MIXING BECAME ONLY MORE WIDESPREAD IN LOWER NUBIA IN LATE ANCIENT TIMES.THE MIXING IN OTHER AREAS OF NUBIA REALLY BECAME MORE WIDE SPREAD IN THE LATER MIDDLE AGES IN UPPER NUBIA AND SOUTHERN NUBIA IN MODERN TIMES IN NUBIA AND VERY LITTLE NUBIANS MIXED IN OTHER AREAS OF SUDAN OUTSIDE OF NUBIA AND OTHER STATES THEY MOVED TOO.BUT MOST MODERN NUBIANS STILL REMAIN FULL BLOODED BLACK AFRICANS,AND MANY STILL ONLY MARRY IN THIER FAMILY LIKE THIER COUSINS,AND THEY WILL TELL YOU SO.THIS IS ALL FACTS.
IT is clear by the way that the first builders of egyptian civilization were full blooded black africans as well in upper egypt.
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 31 January 2005).]
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rasol is fond of showing us nubian art, maybe he will gather up some of these guys and go down to nubia and dig.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: rasol is fond of showing us nubian art, maybe he will gather up some of these guys and go down to nubia and dig.
Worth repeating:
See horemheb you are playing the ignorance card so to speak. In order for something, someone or a concept to be displayed or conceptualized as IDEAL there must be an idea, diety, a people or image (whether concrete or abstract) that/who resembles the likeness of that ideology.
We know that the AE ideal colour was STILL what we call black or African today (or in ancient times) and NOT white or European. Most Africans/Blacks/Negro (whatever euphemisms you like)are medium brown or in your words reddish-brown. Even khoisans (who can be as light as the AE's ideal female colour sans non-African admixture) are still in the colour schematic of what we call black or african collectively.
Bottomline is their ideal was still "black" and not European/white/nordic/blanco.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. On one hand you protest that the colour is symbolic then turn around and say that they were'nt "black" but reddish-brown as if their ideal colour scheme was not "black" (which still is the average colour of most african nations).
This is honestly intellectually empty rhetoric and sounds schizophrenic quite honestly. Horemhem I think your are in denial! If you sit and think about all the contradictory statements, ideas, and concepts you put forward you would know the truth, but you refuse to THINK LOGICALLY!
Posts: 318 | From: PA. USA | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Keins: Worth repeating:
See horemheb you are playing the ignorance card so to speak. In order for something, someone or a concept to be displayed or conceptualized as IDEAL there must be an idea, diety, a people or image (whether concrete or abstract) that/who resembles the likeness of that ideology.
We know that the AE ideal colour was STILL what we call black or African today (or in ancient times) and NOT white or European. Most Africans/Blacks/Negro (whatever euphemisms you like)are medium brown or in your words reddish-brown. Even khoisans (who can be as light as the AE's ideal female colour sans non-African admixture) are still in the colour schematic of what we call black or african collectively.
Bottomline is their ideal was still "black" and not European/white/nordic/blanco.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. On one hand you protest that the colour is symbolic then turn around and say that they were'nt "black" but reddish-brown as if their ideal colour scheme was not "black" (which still is the average colour of most african nations).
This is honestly intellectually empty rhetoric and sounds schizophrenic quite honestly. Horemhem I think your are in denial! If you sit and think about all the contradictory statements, ideas, and concepts you put forward you would know the truth, but you refuse to THINK LOGICALLY!
good post,but one thing most black africans are dark brown and pitch black,but yes there are alot of blacks with these other colors.
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 01 February 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by kenndo: good post,but one thing most black africans are dark brown and pitch black,but yes there are alot of blacks with these other colors.
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 01 February 2005).]
I don't know. I think the term "black Africans" and dark skin that is bluish black, to describe all of Africans has always been used in racism for a purpose. If blacks are supposed to be "Blue Black", then anyone who is not is an admixture. We never stop to think... What if certain groups have always looked like that? Africa is the conteninent that holds 92% of the worlds geographic/ethnic diversity. How could we populate the entire globe with different features and variations if we all looked the exact same? Take the San Bushmen, for example who are said to be the oldest humans left (well, last time I checked anyway). Their skin does is not "jet black" but has a yellowish hue. They are also short in stature, and have slightly almond shaped eyes. It is possible that modern East Asians came from them. But africans are a variant, always have been and probbaly always will be. I don't know, I just think its a theory we should all explore.
Posts: 2 | From: NY | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote: I don't know. I think the term "black Africans" and dark skin that is bluish black, to describe all of Africans has always been used in racism for a purpose. If blacks are supposed to be "Blue Black", then anyone who is not is an admixture. We never stop to think... What if certain groups have always looked like that?
It is a fact that Black Africans have a diverse range of skin colors with the darkest generally inhabiting sunny equatorial regions and the lightest near the coasts (both north and south). Moreover it has certainly always been this way as a simple matter of adaptation to climate.
quote: Africa is the conteninent that holds 92% of the worlds geographic/ethnic diversity. How could we populate the entire globe with different features and variations if we all looked the exact same? Take the San Bushmen, for example who are said to be the oldest humans left (well, last time I checked anyway). Their skin does is not "jet black" but has a yellowish hue.
Correct, also Khoisan types are darker near the tropical regions and lighter near coasts, as are the Bantu groups.
quote: They are also short in stature, and have slightly almond shaped eyes. It is possible that modern East Asians came from them. But africans are a variant, always have been and probbaly always will be.
quote:Originally posted by blessedbydevi: I don't know. I think the term "black Africans" and dark skin that is bluish black, to describe all of Africans has always been used in racism for a purpose. If blacks are supposed to be "Blue Black", then anyone who is not is an admixture. We never stop to think... What if certain groups have always looked like that? Africa is the conteninent that holds 92% of the worlds geographic/ethnic diversity. How could we populate the entire globe with different features and variations if we all looked the exact same? Take the San Bushmen, for example who are said to be the oldest humans left (well, last time I checked anyway). Their skin does is not "jet black" but has a yellowish hue. They are also short in stature, and have slightly almond shaped eyes. It is possible that modern East Asians came from them. But africans are a variant, always have been and probbaly always will be. I don't know, I just think its a theory we should all explore.
I agree,but when i meant dark skin i was talking about the varied dark skin tones not just blue black.
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Along with a very wide nasal index, broad body structure, and 'excessively' curly hair. This is what people like EuroEvil see as Negroid. I guess a large share of the users on this board are 'generalized moderns' now. Posts: 212 | Registered: Jan 2005
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Roy no one here takes Nordic or South European ethnophobes seriously. They cater only to extreme ignorance fueled by bigotry, which is in turn fueled by their own fear.
So I wouldn't give them 'too much' attention, which is what they want you know.
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