These people look very similar to the Ancient Egyptians, yet they're from Europe.
Crete: they're the Minoan People of ancient Crete.
So much for the Afrocentric frame of mind...
Not really,and they are distinguished by their long hair and slender waists. The realistic depictions in 18th dyansty tombs are much darker in apperance than the Keftu.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by ABAZA: Quite interesting,
These people look very similar to the Ancient Egyptians, yet they're from Europe.
Crete: they're the Minoan People of ancient Crete.
So much for the Afrocentric frame of mind...
Well actually it strengthens the position of the study produced at a university in Spain about African origins for a small percentage of the ancient Aegean population not to mention that Evans himself pronounced the Cretans as African.
As much as Eurocentrists cry that African doesnt mean black why then do they insist the European means white? Quite oxymoronic, no?
quote: THE discoveries in Crete have proved conclusively that its pre-Hellenic culture was of great antiquity and local growth. It had developed with unbroken continuity from Neolithic times, and so pronounced was its individual character that it could borrow from contemporary civilizations without suffering loss of identity.
Cretan civilization was immensely older than Mycenæan. Indeed it had reached its "Golden Age" before Mycenæ assumed any degree of importance as a cultural centre. This fact has compelled archæologists to select a new name which could be appropriately applied to it. Professor Reisch favours "Ægean", and, all things considered, this generic term appears to be the most appropriate. It takes into account the obscure influences which were at work during the lengthy Neolithic Period, when independent communities were settled on various islands
p. 192
and on points on the mainland and had begun to trade one with another. The Island of Melos, for instance, as we have seen, was exporting obsidian and importing in exchange apparently the products of other localities. The influence of environment was directing into new lines the common form of culture derived from the North African homeland by the predominant race.
Mycenæan civilization is placed in its proper perspective by referring to it as a late stage of Ægean. On the other hand, Cretan was an early and local form of it. "In Crete", says Mr. H. R. Hall, "it first developed, then spreading northwards it absorbed the kindred culture of the islands, and perhaps the Peloponnese; then it won Central Greece north of the Isthmus from its probably alien aborigines, becoming there 'Mycenæan', and finally, when its own end was near, forced its way into Thessaly, having already reached the Troad in one direction, Cyprus (and Philistia later) in another, Sicily and Messapia in another." 1 http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/moc/moc14.htm
Once again intelligent Africana study is effortlessly the master over brainless Eurocentric emotional chest thumping.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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is this nubian person labeled as such in the original painting, or was he denoted as something else?? I mean, was this a southern egyptain, or a kushite, or Meroe, or southern african??
Also, I noticed that the people of crete look like peoples of color (black african, arab, southeast asia, etc), and NOT EUROPEAN (WHITE) as mentioned by abaza.(sorry to go there, but its astonishing that he could have even thought that in the first place). My question is how do you know that they are from Crete and not from Punt?
Posts: 142 | From: University Height, NJ, USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Well here goes again, hope this version sticks!
quote:Originally posted by anacalypsis: Sir Altakruri
is this nubian person labeled as such in the original painting, or was he denoted as something else?? I mean, was this a southern egyptain, or a kushite, or Meroe, or southern african??
It's a glazed faience tile of foreign prisoners from Ramses III temple at Medinet Habu. At that time period most likely guess is that he is a man of Kesh, not as far south as Meroe but probably Kerma, definitely not from southern Africa.
Rather than an actual foe, it may just be a holdover from when Kesh was one of the Nine Bows. Then again it may recall the plot on the part of a harem wife who was the sister of the Commander of the Archers of Nubia to depose Ramses III.
Also, I noticed that the people of crete look like peoples of color (black african, arab, southeast asia, etc), and NOT EUROPEAN (WHITE) as mentioned by abaza.(sorry to go there, but its astonishing that he could have even thought that in the first place). My question is how do you know that they are from Crete and not from Punt?
The hairstyle, trade goods, kilts, and footwear identify the people in the painting as Keftiu. Not all of Crete was dark, there are notably pale white Cretans. Since this scene from the tomb of Senmut is one of tribute bearers, maybe the officials back home thought it wise to send delegates whose looks would invoke favorable acceptance.
SIDENOTE Aeschylus in The Suppliant Maidens has those women declare their Argive heritage. The incredulous king recounts that their darkness and features belie Greek origins. Nevertheless he is willing to hear the maidens out and agree with their refutation of his surmise. The Greek author thus recognizes an ancient African strain as a small part of some Greek lineages. Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Apparently the plot was successful. Ramses III died before the conclusion of the harem plot inquest so the 9 Bows idea is the better guess.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The hairstyle, trade goods, kilts, and footwear identify the people in the painting as Keftiu. Not all of Crete was dark, there are notably pale white Cretans. Since this scene from the tomb of Senmut is one of tribute bearers, maybe the officials back home thought it wise to send delegates whose looks would invoke favorable acceptance.
SIDENOTE Aeschylus in The Suppliant Maidens has those women declare their Argive heritage. The incredulous king recounts that their darkness and features belie Greek origins. Nevertheless he is willing to hear the maidens out and agree with their refutation of his surmise. The Greek author thus recognizes an ancient African strain as a small part of some Greek lineages.
Thanks Altakruri, very insightful. I have seen documentaries on the peoples of crete. As you could imagine, I haven't seen any dark type peoples in these documentaries shown on TLC and DSC. But again, if these people are from crete, it would be hard to confuse them with whites.
Posts: 142 | From: University Height, NJ, USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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Most of the bound figures in reliefs and artwork are symbolic to the execration rituals. There is a scene where a Libyan cheiftain is about to be killed and his family is begging for his life. This motif is repeated over and over again every dyansty. The same can probably be said with the picture of Nubians being trampled on Tut-ankh-amun's chest.
Bound enemies are more ritualistic than realistic. However,al takruri,what is your opinion of the pictures of Nubian wrestlers on the Window of apperance in the Ramesseum? You think these people might be related to the Nuba people of the Nuba mountains in modern Sudan. Many of these Nubian captives around this time have identical facial scars like the southern Sudanese in modern Sudan.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Most of the bound figures in reliefs and artwork are symbolic to the execration rituals. There is a scene where a Libyan cheiftain is about to be killed and his family is begging for his life. This motif is repeated over and over again every dyansty. The same can probably be said with the picture of Nubians being trampled on Tut-ankh-amun's chest.
Bound enemies are more ritualistic than realistic. However,al takruri,what is your opinion of the pictures of Nubian wrestlers on the Window of apperance in the Ramesseum? You think these people might be related to the Nuba people of the Nuba mountains in modern Sudan. Many of these Nubian captives around this time have identical facial scars like the southern Sudanese in modern Sudan.
Yes I think, without having done much study, that they are maybe the Red and Black Noba who took over Meroe and were defeated by the Axumites. For me the wrestling is a dead giveaway as it attains great social, ritual, and sexual reproduction status among the Nuba.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by anacalypsis: Thanks Altakruri, very insightful. I have seen documentaries on the peoples of crete. As you could imagine, I haven't seen any dark type peoples in these documentaries shown on TLC and DSC. But again, if these people are from crete, it would be hard to confuse them with whites.
These societies didnt have the colour bar. The Africans and Euroeans of Crete were of one culture and eole. The founding culture was North African but the population hailed from the Levant, other Aegean islands, and the Hellene mainland as well. The Africans were not in the majority. The majority population was the unique comingling that produced the disctinct Minoans.
Mionoans paint themselves. I wonder if the Egyptian artist had visited Kaphtor or maybe seen this type of painting in the home of a Keftu living in Kmt?
Notice the dark women at the left
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Most of the bound figures in reliefs and artwork are symbolic to the execration rituals. There is a scene where a Libyan cheiftain is about to be killed and his family is begging for his life. This motif is repeated over and over again every dyansty. The same can probably be said with the picture of Nubians being trampled on Tut-ankh-amun's chest.
Bound enemies are more ritualistic than realistic. However,al takruri,what is your opinion of the pictures of Nubian wrestlers on the Window of apperance in the Ramesseum? You think these people might be related to the Nuba people of the Nuba mountains in modern Sudan. Many of these Nubian captives around this time have identical facial scars like the southern Sudanese in modern Sudan.
Basil Davidson stated that the Nuba people were direct descendants of the peoples of Meroe. For him, the point was based on the wrestling style that the modern day Nuba had, which he claims is identical to that of the ancient peoples. Outside of Davidson I am not familiar with any other research on this.
Posts: 142 | From: University Height, NJ, USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
An interesting website using paintings from a temple featuring Amenemope to get to subpages. Slowly hover your cursor over the top banner for clickable links for details on the sections of the paintings.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: An interesting website using paintings from a temple featuring Amenemope to get to subpages. Slowly hover your cursor over the top banner for clickable links for details on the sections of the paintings.
[This message has been edited by alTakruri (edited 05 January 2005).]
Stupendous site Sir Altakruri,
It has a very interesting set up. Whats perplexing is that the information there seems to paint the Nubian as people that the pharaohs typically fought against and used for their land and materials, when the relationship was far more personal and developed than that.
THat what I gathered from the info about the nubians in the picture.
Posts: 142 | From: University Height, NJ, USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by anacalypsis: Stupendous site Sir Altakruri,
It has a very interesting set up. Whats perplexing is that the information there seems to paint the Nubian as people that the pharaohs typically fought against and used for their land and materials, when the relationship was far more personal and developed than that.
THat what I gathered from the info about the nubians in the picture.
There was an intimate if exploitive sibling relationship between T3Wy and Kesh. Brothers veigh for dominance one over the other yet they remain the same family. Still there are differences between even identical twin brothers. Egypt embraced writing while Kesh eschewed it for the longest time and Egypt did rank Kesh among the Nine Bows clear until late New Kingdom times.
The important thing to remember is that certain Keshite families always, since the foundation of the Dynastic period, had a right to the throne of T3Wy because of their noble status in Gebel Barkal the prime residence of Amun the father of legitimacy to rulership.
Gebel Barkal was way up south at the fourth cataract. Yet it was the seat of Amun and pharoanic legitimacy. Among others too numerous to list
Zanakht of dynatsy 3 was a Nehasi
the 4th dynasty queen Khentkaues was of Ta Seti and she birthed the first two kings of the 5th dynasty
the Uakha family established the 12th dynasty
Senwosret or Sesostris was a common Uakha name
the name Amenhotep or Amememhet shows the Uakha connection to Amun and Gebel Barkal
Amenemhet I was vizier for Mentuhotep IV of the preceding 11th dynasty, his ancestry of and marrige in the Uakha family legitimized his natural right to the throne
the 14th dyanastys second ruler was actually named Nehesi and honored his mother Peret incorporating her name in his cartouche
Piye and the succeeding 25th dynasty are too famous to detail
the 25th dynasty was ultra orthodox reviving tradition throughout T3 Akht
in truth pharoanic Kmt ended with the 25th dynasty from Napata/Gebel Barkal
[This message has been edited by alTakruri (edited 05 January 2005).]
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: Question - Kesh? Not Kush?
Hansberry 1977 gave Qevs as the original word. I recently started using Kesh because Kush is a Hebrew term and its not that they may not have the right vowel sound but I wanted to remove biblical hence religious connotations from historical subject matter.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Hansberry 1977 gave Qevs as the original word. I recently started using Kesh because Kush is a Hebrew term and its not that they may not have the right vowel sound but I wanted to remove biblical hence religious connotations from historical subject matter.
Would one expect decipherment of the merotic script to yield a definitive rendering of this national reference?
quote: the 14th dyanastys second ruler was actually named Nehesi and honored his mother Peret incorporating her name in his cartouche
Anyone with any more information on the 14th dynasty...it's relationship to the Km.t[rome], the Aamu Hyksos, and the Kushites?
Of the problematic names of the period, that of Nehesy...poses a difficulty virtually unsolvable in the present state of our knowledge. It is difficult to link the king whose heir apparency, prenomen, and subsequent reign are reflected in the substantial monuments reveiwed above... with the ephemeral individual of Turin Canon viii. We must either postulate more than one king bearing this name or consider the possibility of an error in the placement and length of his reign. [Lists debateable reasons for moving him]...It seems to me inescapeable that Nehesy be placed within the timespan of the Fifteenth Dynasty, as an erstwhile eldest son of Khiyan or Apophis, the only Hyksos kings, incidentally, to leave behind constructions and inscriptions in stone. The name, though resembling a nickname "the Nubian", could enjoy perfectly good credentials in a West Semitic language; and such a derivation is likely to be preferred in light of Nehesy's northern domicile." http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/ANE/ANE-DIGEST/2000/v2000.n250
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 06 January 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Would one expect decipherment of the merotic script to yield a definitive rendering of this national reference?
Somewhere in another thread I posted two charts of the Meroetic alphabet. Hansberry says that Sayce and Griffith of Oxford based on an inscription, the people under question themselves used Qevs as the designation of their own country.
Unfortunately William Leo Hansberry died before he could publish the information in Africa & Africans himself and the published book's editor, Joseph Harris, occluded footnotes. However I did find this in the biblio:
Griffith, F. L. Meroitic Studies III and IV Journal of Egyptian Archeaology v4 London, 1917 pp. 21-24, 159-173
The precise info can be retrieved via interlibrary loan at a university.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Somewhere in another thread I posted two charts of the Meroetic alphabet. Hansberry says that Sayce and Griffith of Oxford based on an inscription, the people under question themselves used Qevs as the designation of their own country.
Unfortunately William Leo Hansberry died before he could publish the information in Africa & Africans himself and the published book's editor, Joseph Harris, occluded footnotes. However I did find this in the biblio:
Griffith, F. L. Meroitic Studies III and IV Journal of Egyptian Archeaology v4 London, 1917 pp. 21-24, 159-173
The precise info can be retrieved via interlibrary loan at a university.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Anyone with any more information on the 14th dynasty...it's relationship to the Km.t[rome], the Aamu Hyksos, and the Kushites?
Of the problematic names of the period, that of Nehesy...poses a difficulty virtually unsolvable in the present state of our knowledge. It is difficult to link the king whose heir apparency, prenomen, and subsequent reign are reflected in the substantial monuments reveiwed above... with the ephemeral individual of Turin Canon viii. We must either postulate more than one king bearing this name or consider the possibility of an error in the placement and length of his reign. [Lists debateable reasons for moving him]...It seems to me inescapeable that Nehesy be placed within the timespan of the Fifteenth Dynasty, as an erstwhile eldest son of Khiyan or Apophis, the only Hyksos kings, incidentally, to leave behind constructions and inscriptions in stone. The name, though resembling a nickname "the Nubian", could enjoy perfectly good credentials in a West Semitic language; and such a derivation is likely to be preferred in light of Nehesy's northern domicile." http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/ANE/ANE-DIGEST/2000/v2000.n250
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 06 January 2005).]
Ah!!! Are we approaching reasons behind the Hqa.x3st later sending a note to the Nhsyw proposing an alliance?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: Anyone with any more information on the 14th dynasty...it's relationship to the Km.t[rome], the Aamu Hyksos, and the Kushites?
Of the problematic names of the period, that of Nehesy...poses a difficulty virtually unsolvable in the present state of our knowledge. It is difficult to link the king whose heir apparency, prenomen, and subsequent reign are reflected in the substantial monuments reveiwed above... with the ephemeral individual of Turin Canon viii. We must either postulate more than one king bearing this name or consider the possibility of an error in the placement and length of his reign. [Lists debateable reasons for moving him]...It seems to me inescapeable that Nehesy be placed within the timespan of the Fifteenth Dynasty, as an erstwhile eldest son of Khiyan or Apophis, the only Hyksos kings, incidentally, to leave behind constructions and inscriptions in stone. The name, though resembling a nickname "the Nubian", could enjoy perfectly good credentials in a West Semitic language; and such a derivation is likely to be preferred in light of Nehesy's northern domicile." http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/ANE/ANE-DIGEST/2000/v2000.n250
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 06 January 2005).]
Ah!!! Are we approaching reasons behind the Hqa.x3st later sending a note to the Nhsyw proposing an alliance?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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