Originally posted by rasol:
Good posts alTakruri and Ausar.
For example, there are cases where the idigenous Berber were forced southward by the Arab invasion, and where the Berbers in turn forced Saharan Africans further South, but this isn't consistent with the time period you reference. Saharan rock art goes back to the Paleolithic and much of it is anterior to your specified time period.
When the Arabs invaded it seems that much of the Berbers with the exception of the Tuareg and others went to the mountain tops. Some joined the Arab invaders and became the soliders for the invasions of Spain and Scily. Most of the Moorish forces were desert tribes called Sanhaja. The original Maure were mostly desert people described so by the Roman writers. You also had people called Gauteali[sp] that lived somewhere in Libya.
More specifically the other AE known Libyans are the
When, where, and under what circumstances do each of these ethnics enter the historical scene?
THHNW show up as early as the Vth Dynasty on the reliefs of Neuserre and Sahure
who defeated them. In the VIth Dynasty Harkhuf a royal merchant for Pepy II notes a
potential war between the NHHSW of Yam and the TMHHW. Mentuhotep of Dynasty
XI mentions defeating the Rebu/Libu.
By the XVIII Dynasty we hear of the Imukehek and Ekbet in the times of Amenhotep I
and Thutmose I. Then the XIXth and XXth Dynasties.
Ramses II found the THHNW in alliance with the Sherden one the HWA NBW
peoples from outside of Africa. But how did this alliance form and why were North
Africans and north Mediterraneans in relationship?
West of the THHNW the Libu formed a powerful coalition with the Ekwesh, Teresh,
Luka, Sherden, and Shekelesh, who all are peoples from north of the Mediterranean
coast of Africa. This horde forced the THHNW to join them as they stood between
Libu and Egypt the target of their plan of conquest. Why did they choose to march
east on Egypt instead of going west toward the Maghreb if the HWA NBW were only
ejected migrants seeking asylum? This invasion force also sought out the goodwill
of the Hittites. Merneptah proved to be up to the challenge and utterly routed the entire
force.
Then not long afterward the Meshwesh from even further west than the Libu in cahoots
with another set of northerners Thekel, Peleset, Denyen, Weshesh and the older set
of northern allies encroached on Egyptian territories. The North African Seped or
Esbet join in the coalition. Ramses III put them down, branding and enslaving many to
incorporate them into the military or into agricultural service.
It should be noted that the northerners came with their women and children. Outside of
the war effort, how many northern peoples in search of a new home avoided Libu and
Meshwesh intrigues to instead peacefully settle westward of the aggression? Did such
settlement cause southern and eastern movement of the earlier population?
Not having learned their lesson well, more North Africans, the Esbet, Shai or Shaitep,
Beken, Keykesh, and Hes, along with the Meshwesh mount another attack to occupy
Egypt which again fails and leads to their occupying military and agricultural posts
after being branded.
With the Meshwesh we have the first naming apparently linguisticly related to
Tamazight and the Amazigh identity. Amazigh identity seems to begin with these
Meshwesh and not the THHNW.
Is there any ethnic or linguistic significance to all these esh name endings shared by
both the North Africans and north Mediterraneans?
As the Meshwesh piece by piece begin to peacefully settle in the Delta during the
weak XXIst Dynasty they attain to authoritative positions until finally a Meshwesh
assumes pharoahship inaugurating the XXIInd Dynasty. The beginning of the
reign of Shosenq I is the year 1 in the Amazigh calendar commemorated yearly by
Imazighen activists at Yenneyar celebrations everywhere theres an Amazigh community.
[This message has been edited by alTakruri (edited 03 December 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
The beginning of the
reign of Shosenq I is the year 1 in the Amazigh calendar commemorated yearly by
Imazighen activists at Yenneyar celebrations everywhere theres an Amazigh community.
[This message has been edited by alTakruri (edited 03 December 2004).]
Thought Writes:
Fits well with the genetic and linguistic data indicating east to west migrations of Berbers in the late 1st millineum B.C.
Whas do the various names of the Libyan tribes means?
Which book is it taken from?
The oldest culture found in Lower Egypt sofar is at Marimda Bani Salama, on the southwest edge of the Delta, and farther to the southwest, in the Fayyum. The site at Marimda Bani Salama, which dates to the 6th–5th millennia BC, gives evidence of settlement and shows that cereals were grown.
quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
What does each word your post related to the ancient Egyptians translated to? I know Tehennu means ''land of the Olive growers''Whas do the various names of the Libyan tribes means?
Relevant because: . Lake Siwa to the west of the town of is a large, saltwater lake.
The area is famous for its dates and olives, and is one of the most beautiful landscapes in Egpt. Olives oil is still made in the area by crushing the olives from the 70,000 olive trees in the area with stones - touregypt.com
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 03 December 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
Good posts alTakruri and Ausar.
Thanx Rasol I appreciate that!
quote:
Originally posted by Orionix:
Nice post. However seems like the presence of Libyans in Egypt dates back only to the late 20th dynasty of the New Kingdom.
Egyptian records of the XIXth Dynasty show Eastern Libyans as mercenary soldiery particularly
in the chariot corps. Its true that Ramses III permitted them to settle in the western Delta where they were used to regulate any further flow into Egypt. The Delta was always
a magnetic for foreign incretion. Many folk there were Egyptian by nationality but not by
aboriginal lineal descent.
Well before the New Kingdom some Libyans had territories on the west bank of the Nile on Nubia. Technically after Egypt annexed land south of the 1st cataract they could maybe be
considered as a part of Egypt although this
would really be Nubia.
Manetho mentions Libyans in Egypt rebelling against Neferkare of the IIIrd Dynasty but as
no document survives from that time recording it, it may or may not be factual.
quote:
Which book is it taken from?[/B]
Its not from a book. Its a synthesis of my research into the topic and comes from many
sources.
quote:
The oldest culture found in Lower Egypt sofar is at Marimda Bani Salama, on the southwest edge of the Delta, and farther to the southwest, in the Fayyum. The site at Marimda Bani Salama, which dates to the 6th–5th millennia BC, gives evidence of settlement and shows that cereals were grown. [/B]
The earliest record from the Egyptians noting Libyans is from the Vth Dynasty. They
were south of Memphis, probably in the Fayoum. A lot can be learned from archaelogy
but this thread is supposed to rely on written history. By archaeology we know that
Saharan peoples were an important element contributing to what would become the Egyptians of prehistoric times.
quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
alTakruri, do you have pictures of these various Libyan tribes? What does each word your post related to the ancient Egyptians translated to? I know Tehennu means ''land of the Olive growers''Whas do the various names of the Libyan tribes means?
Ausar, these are very good questions! I have the mdw ntr of each of these names but I
cant say with any surety what any of them means.
In another thread Wally gives the alternate meaning of HHN in the name of the THHNW
as brilliant. This is just as valid if not more valid than the meaning olive. As far as it relates to blue and the Blue Men of more than 2500 years later, that remains a worthy
speculation. Contrary to genetic indicators the Tuareg themselves claim to come from
the far Atlantic Maghreb in an exodus under Queen Tin Hanan.
Wally has shown that some of the mdw ntr names of Eastern Libyan tribes are not from
the Egyptian language and so are probably derived from Tamazight linguistic roots. This
again brings up the question of the coastals relationship to their HWA NBW allies some of
whom also have esh in the endings of their tribal names.
Eastern Libyans with esh names
Sea Peoples with esh names
Of particular notice are the Meshwesh nation and Weshesh HWA NBW tribe especially
when we will later note Graeo Roman authors relating origins of some Eastern Libyan tribes as coming from the Aegean and the northern Middle East.
[This message has been edited by alTakruri (edited 05 December 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
bump
thanks.
The Egyptians called the population of the neighboring Libya `Tehenu.' They were pictured with dark complexion and curly hair [Ahmed Fakhir, `Siwa Oasis', (Cairo, 1973), p. 75]
The coast has been settled since Mesolithic times, in turn by the Tehenu (ancient dwellers of that coast), Greeks, Romans (marked by two brief but destructive Persian invasions), Byzantines, Berbers, Arabs and modern Egyptians - Ministry Water Resoures and Irrigation - Giza Egypt.
During Egypt's Old Kingdom, it was a part of Tehenu, the Olive Land that may have extended as for east as Mareotis.
Aside from that, the Siwa Oasis has little in common with the other Western Oasis. The Siwan people are mostly Berbers, the true Western Desert indigenous people, who once roamed the North African coast between Tunisia and Morocco. They have their own culture and customs and, as well as speaking Arabic, speak own Berber (Amazigh) language. Women still wear traditional costumes and silver jewellery.
The modern town of Siwa is set among thick palm groves, walled gardens and olive orchards, with numerous freshwater springs and salt lakes. Siwa also clusters beneath the impressive remains of the ancient fortress town of Shali. http://www.arabworldbooks.com/new/siwahistory.html
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 25 January 2005).]
quote:
According to the ancients, the portion of Africa to the west of Egypt was called Libya but according to the Moudu ro en Kemet, the region to the west of Kemet would be called Khasut Amenti ("foreign territories in the west"), and like "Nubia" to the south, it was only referred to vis-a-vis the tribes or peoples in that region. Here is the chronology of Kemetian names for what the ancients referred to as "Libya" :1) predynastic;early dynastic period (2920-2575bc);also in the Book of the Dead, one of the oldest Kemetian texts.
Tehenu: ("The 'blue' people")
Note: their name was often written with the ideogram for "sparkle, shine, coruscate, lightning, blue-glazed faience. (EWB)
These people were portrayed by the Kemetian as being very similar to themselves, and probably were closely related.
Tehen: dazzling;sparkling; to dye something blue; faience or a glazed blue earthenware that was often used for amulets and some vessels.In my opinion, these were the ancestors of the present day Taureg people, who even today some of them are referred to as the blue people because some wear fabrics dyed by a process which involves pounding indigo powder into the cloth with a stone. So, if you were to use the Kemetian language to describe these Taureg people you would call them Tehenu...
2) 12th Dynasty onwards...
While the Tehenu were still present and also used, we had an addition:
Tamhu: "The Red people"
This was an ethnic term based upon Kemetian ethnographic classifications (IE, *"the mural of the races") to indicate a white race of people. These were the blue-eyed 'Berbers' and were to become the favorites of modern Egyptology, as their presence allowed the creation of an erroneous association with the civilization of Kemet, even though their existence was only acknowledge during the 12th Kemetian dynasty...3) 20th Dynasty
M'shawaasha: (?; "meshwesh") This was a Libyan people who appear to be self-named, as there doesn't appear to be a Kemetian correspondence (at least I couldn't find any). We do have the name of one of their kings; M'shaken.4) Indeterminate
Rebu/Lebu:
I couldn't find any direct correspondence with "Reb" or "Leb" but we can perhaps find help from Diop on this one; Diop informs us that there are a people living in Senegal called the Lebou and whose name means "fishermen or people who live by the sea." So what do we have in Kemetian?
"r" or "l" is a preposition meaning for example - to;against;at
"bo" in Kemetian and in Coptic means "canal" or "stream"
"l_bo" means "at the stream"
"l_bou" means "those at the stream"
Thus it is accurate to state that Lebou in the Kemetian language would mean and be consistent with "people who live by the sea (water)."
Would the Lebu then be tribes living along the coast of northern Africa? I think so...
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 22 April 2005).]