This author, Dr. Nana Banchie Darkwah, is a Akan (Ghanian) king. In his book "The Africans Who Wrote The Bible" he asserts that the Akan [ukAn´, Ak´un] people were the core of Egyptian society.
He primarily uses one discipline and that is linguistics. For example, everybody knows of the ancient king Akhenaten. In Dr. Darkwah's books he says that the name "Akhenaten" is a transposed African name. "Akhenaten" is the Greek translation of the royal (Denkyira) name "Akenten". Even today the current Denkyirahene king is named Nana (King) Oti Akenten.
Another example is the boy king "Tutankhamun". In his book Dr. Nana Banchie says this is another Greek translation of the royal Akuapem names "Tutu" and "Ankoma".
Dr. Darkwah is Aduana royalty himself and apparently he has a book called "Egypt: The story Africa has never told" in the works.
I have read "The Africans Who Wrote The Bible" several times and I must say I have accepted it as fact for several reasons.
1) Through cross refrencing I've found that Akan culture is identical to ancient Egyptian culture. For example, the Akan have matrilineal traditions. Another being the worship of Asaase Yaa (Isis) and Osoro (Osirus).
2) King Darkwah's linguistic expertise is undeniable. He says the first king to unite Egypt, "Menes", indigenous name is "Omane" and that is a Kwahu name. Another example is his assertion that the ancient city "Memphis" is really called "Mamfe" and is even a current Akuapem city.
3) When we discuss ancient Egyptians we talk as if they're extinct. True there are descendants of the ancient Egyptians still in Upper Egypt, the Horn of Africa and other East African areas but who can say the kingship is lost? Who can say the descendants of the ancient Egyptians are only concentrated in these areas?
4) I know a young guy who is very much into Egyptology. He's part Egyptian himself. I beat him in the head with my findings for a long time and he admits that the Akan (and other W. African groups like the Yoruba) may have very well been in Egypt during the Old Kingdom. That would explain the linguistic and cultural similarities.
5) I can't recall anytime in history where a African king writes a book discussing ancient secrets of his people. In his book he even has a picture of Akan furniture (Asesedwa) and this stool has the same exact design Egyptians had 4,000 years ago.
All of this is very hard to swallow for someone who has been looking into Egypt for as long as they can remember. I didn't pick up a book entitled "The Africans Who Wrote The Bible" expecting to learn anything about the Egyptians.
I suggest all interested parties and aspiring Egyptologists take a ganders into this book. It has a wealth of information. When you're done and you’re still not convinced, do some independent studying and see what you find.
When I did my studying I found out the Kwa language (Niger-Kordofanian) came from the Chadic languages. So called Semitic (Afro-Asiatic) languages.
I’ve also found that the Akan’s written language consists of symbols, just like the ancient Egyptians.
I have learned a lot by taking this angle to ancient Egypt. What do you think about this angle?
quote:
Originally posted by supercar:
The migration of various African groups to western Africa over time, must have had something to do with these pygmies being pushed to the central African region, where they can now be found in the Congolese region.
Thought Writes:
Conversly, the indigenous dimunitive populations of the forest belt may have simply merged with in coming Saharan groups to produce the modern languages, geneotypes and phenotypes now found in the region. The forest belt was much further north during the Holocene climactic maximum.
This author is saying the Egyptians consisted of 11 tribes and 8 clans. He's saying the earliest names on the kings list are Akan names. He's saying the Akan were central in Egyptian civilization, very boldly.
I am not a linguist so I will not comment on the linguistic questions I myself cannot answer. What I do know is that many groups in Western Africa claim to be desendants of people that came from a great river. The Yoruba, Akan,Ga, Wolof, Lebou, and others all make these claims. The question remains is if these oral stories were supplanted into the local tradition by missionaries or wheather these claims have some validity. We know that sometimes when Africans in northern Africa and Western Africa they would ascribe a ''fake'' pedigree to Arabs to justify their conversion and acceptance in the Islamic world.
The case with some groups like the Akan and Yoruba might be legitmate. Other stories I am rather skeptical of.
What we do know archaeologically is that Western Africa has been inhabited by people since about 30,000 years from what I read. These people according also to oral history of Western Africans were supposed to be little small people that either became assimilated or displaced by migrating larger Africans. In various Greco-Roman accounts such as Hanno,Herodotus, and others talks about little small people inhabiting the interior of Africa. Hanno was a Carthigenian explorer that some say ventured as far as Sierra Leone and Cameroon. In his expeditions he does not record large amounts of people living in Western Africa. However, Herodotus does record people who lived on the fringes of Libya[ often used as a generic term for Africa] that conducted a silent trade with the Carthigenians: meaning the Carthigenians would put smoke signals and the people would leave the item along the shore and only leave when satisfactory amounts were given.
Modern day Western Africa is more populated in modern times then it was in antiquity. The largest amounts of population in Western Africa is located around Nigeria. The question is when did this population swell?
Know it's true that ancent Kmt[Egypt] shares many similarities with Western Africans and other African people. Such examples are the circumcision rites,ancestor veneration,divine kingship,and matrilineal desent[sometimes contested by scholars][1] I am of the belief that during deep in pre-history the Western African population and pre-dyanstic Egyptian population probabaly shared these traits. Most of the modern Western African population probabaly originated around the Central and Southern Sahara but began to migrate to the Niger or the Nile when dessification began. I favor this rather than the opposite theory by Gadalla in Exiled Egyptians: Ancient Egyptians in the Heart of Africa that maintains sucessive waves of Egyptians migrated from Egypt populating Western Africa.[2]
In exploration of this enigma we must consult archaeological sources from Western Africa itself. What we find is a culture called the Kintampo culture dated to around 1500 B.C. which shows the oldest agritculture in Western Africa. Another agricultural site is Dhar Tchitt located in southern Mauritania that was founded by the ancestors of the modern Mande people in Western Africa. The only other people existing in Western Africa at the time were the Proto-Bantu people around 1500 B.C. either around the Benu or Gabon. The rest of Western Africa was not as populated. Notice that Western African archaeology has been greatly neglected by the establishment.
It's interesting you should mention Chadic since a linguist named Mohammed Garba found many similarities not just in word but in overall syntax to the ancient Egyptian language. He wrote his disseration on this and published an article in a maminstream publication. Linguist are just know admitting that Niger-Congo languages really branched off from Nilo-Saharan languages. No connection has been found between Niger-Kofadan and Afro-Asiatic but this definatley deserves investigation. Some question wheater most Afro-Asiatic words in Niger-Kofadan languages came from Tuareg traders or interaction of these traders.[3]
1. Many mainstream Egyptologist of past and present noticed the similarities with ancient Kmt and Africans further south. The following comes from an Egyptologist which revises these theories:
98.1016
CERVELLÓ AUTUORI, Joseph, Egypt, Africa and the Ancient World, in:
Proceedings 7th Int. Congress of Egyptologists, 261-272. (fig.).
The traditional contextualisation of Egypt in the 'Mediterranean' or
'Near Eastern' world has been produced by a phenomenon of western
historiography that we can classify as the 'forgotten Africa'. The
reopening of the African question in Egyptology has proceeded from the
pre- and protohistorians of the Nile Valley and of northern Africa in
general. The inclusion of late prehistoric Egypt in Africa determines
the essentially African nature of many of the central features of
Pharaonic civilisation and explains the many parallels between ancient
Egypt and both the ancient Saharan and modern black civilisations. The
author discusses examples of the iconographic-symbolic parallels
between Saharan rock art and Egyptian art, and the principal cultural
characteristics shared by ancient Egypt and modern black Africa. The
African nature of Egyptian civilisation can be seen most clearly in
the institution of Pharaonic kingship. M.W.K.
2. Moustafa Gadalla is an independent resercher and author of Exiled Egyptians which discusses that ancient Egyptians fled to Western Africa after various invasions.
3. Linguist have found many similarities between Chadic and ancient Kemetian[Egyptian] The following paper discusses Chadic and it's implications and relations with ancient Kemetian. He also critques some of Diop's ideals
http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/schuh/Papers/language_and_history.pdf
Most experts agree that the Afro-Asiatic branch probably spread out of the present-day Sahara both north (to the Near East) and to NW Africa.
quote:
Originally posted by ausar:I am not a linguist so I will not comment on the linguistic questions I myself cannot answer. What I do know is that many groups in Western Africa claim to be desendants of people that came from a great river. The Yoruba, Akan,Ga, Wolof, Lebou, and others all make these claims.
quote:
The case with some groups like the Akan and Yoruba might be legitmate. Other stories I am rather skeptical of.
Thats one issue he doesn't really tackle in this book (maybe he will in his next book), this supposed mass migration that would have to had taken place.
quote:
3. Linguist have found many similarities between Chadic and ancient Kemetian[Egyptian] The following paper discusses Chadic and it's implications and relations with ancient Kemetian. He also critques some of Diop's idealshttp://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/schuh/Papers/language_and_history.pdf
[This message has been edited by Dada Afre (edited 13 November 2004).]
quote:???? ROTFL.
Most experts agree that the Afro-Asiatic branch probably spread out of the present-day Sahara.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 13 November 2004).]
This is a diagram from the book.
[This message has been edited by Dada Afre (edited 13 November 2004).]
Let's discuss how kingship amungst the Akan and Kmt are similar. Most scholars project that the ancient Kemetian kingship died out around the last pharaonic dyansty dated to the 32nd with Necantebo I in which he flees to Nubia according to Diodorus Siculus. My question is do the Akan have an ceremony similar to the heb sed ceremony. This was where the pharaoh had to prove every thirty years he was capable of ruling by proving physical ability. He would run,preform stunts and other physical feats. Any thing similar amungst the Akan?
Also with the pharaoh came regalia such as the shendyt kilt. This was a bull's tail that the pharaoh traditionally wore. Is any of the regalia similar amungst the Akan to the dyanstic Egyptians.
causa sine qua non
In order for the Akan to be placed at the beginning of Pharaonic Egyptian civilization, they must be either related to or associated with the Anu or Mesnitu peoples or both. So guess what we find in the Moudu ro n Kemet:
Akaniu: according to Budge, the Akans(also Akun) were a class of gods (Nteru;ancestors) like Osiris, the Grand Anu.
Sounds like a lock to me.
Also:
a) 'Moudu' names for memphis were Membi AND memfi
b) indirectly supports Diop's thesis that in antiquity taller Blacks formed a cluster in the Nile Valley, and like the ebb of the tide, over the centuries re-populated the African interior.
I've got to read this book...
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 13 November 2004).]
It's not a transposition, its a different dialect! You have Ikhnaton, Akenaton,Aknten,etc...
And in my humble opinion, -is one of the reasons why the Kememu didn't always write the vowel sounds, since they varied with each (of many) dialect of the language
(we still inevitably give the Greeks too much unearned credit...)
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 13 November 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by Dada Afre:
http://img16.exs.cx/img16/416/17397.jpgThis is a diagram from the book.
[This message has been edited by Dada Afre (edited 13 November 2004).]
I finally got this jpg to show up. It is interesting.
Of great interest to me have been:
(1) The Nok terracottas from central Nigeria dated back to 1000BC (this is date is much earlier than the "official date" of 500/600BC and is due to advanced testing techniques outlined in the book):
http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/2876602423.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
If you can find a copy of the book in the jpg,(The Birth of Art in Africa), you'll see that many of these terracottas have very elaborate headresses (some of which resemble those of the Pharoahs). Some of them even have their beards braided.
Another sculpture in this style can be found in the first picture from the right on the web page below:
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/nok/hd_nok2.htm
(2) The Dufuna Canoe found in Northern Nigeria near Lake Chad, dated from about 8000BC: http://www.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de/~sfb268/c7/dufuna.htm
(3) Ife Terracottas, Bronzes and monolith from South Western Nigeria: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/ifet/hd_ifet.htm
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/ife/hd_ife.htm
The Metropolitan Museum seems to back date this kingdom to 350BC, whereas most books state 500AD.
(4) The Igbo Ukwu of south-eastern Nigeria: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/igbo/hd_igbo.htm
Ironically, most of these items were discovered by ordinary people undertaking daily duties.
[This message has been edited by fatai (edited 14 November 2004).]
[This message has been edited by fatai (edited 14 November 2004).]
This is why people should stick to the argument of a Central Saharan origin for Western Africans and early pre-dyanstic Egyptians. Many of these claims were made by racist anthropologist during the 19th century to usurp any high culture they found in Western, Central, and Eastern Africa they could. Many African scholars fall for the okie doke of the agenda of diffusionists. Most of this comes from the lack of knowleadge of any other part of Africa except Kmt. This is why I remind people also to investigate other parts of Africa instead of just one civlization.
Which is why I take claims that the Yoruba, Ashnati, or others who claim ancestry from other lands with a grain of salt. The shared customs between modern Western Africans and ancient Kemetians might just be from pre-history instead of recent migration. The stories of Western Africans coming from the north might just be in relation to the dessification of the Sahara. This time period was around 2,000-1,500 BP.
Fatai, you also forgot Kintampo culture in modern day Ghana.
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/ioa/backdirt/Fallwinter00/oti.html
http://www.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=3217875567020
There are other archaeological sites in southern Mauritania like Dar Tchitt. George Peter Murdock, an early anthropologist, argued for independent agritculture for the early Mande speakers in western Africa. Plus reserchers have already proven that Iron metalurgy in Western Africa was independent of outside influces.
One recent mainstream book that deals with the questions is entitled Ancient Egypt in Africa by David O'Connor Another one is Egypt in Africa by Theodore Celenko. The latter book is hard to find and out of print.
I agree with you that more should be done to establish a Central Saharan origin for many of the ethnic groups of West Africa.
Some of these diffusionist theories aren't very credible. It's a case of diffusionism vs indigenous creation, and I think the possibility of the latter is often ignored.
The term "Yoruba" is used to define a grouping of different ethnicities, for example Ijesha, Ijebu, Ekiti, Egba etc. The people of the Old Oyo kingdom are considered to be "proper" Yoruba, whilst the rest are said to have arrived in later waves of migration. Thus it is unlikely that they all originated from a common source.
For example, the Ijebu trace their ancestry to Chad, whilst the roots of Oyo are said to be further north.
Additionally, the numerous dialectal and cultural differences that historically existed between the various groups would further suggest different origins. It is for these reasons that centralized control was very dificult in the past.
The Central Saharan and Southern Saharan origin has already been proven since the people of the rock art pratice similar rituals to modern day Fulani people. Also the scarification marks and hair styles match people as far south as Central Africa. The skeletal remains in the Sahara also match modern day sub-Saharan Africans.
BTW, what is the origin of the word Yoruba? Didn't the Hausa people call people who didn't pratice Islam that?
quote:
Ausar asked
BTW, what is the origin of the word Yoruba? Didn't the Hausa people call people who didn't pratice Islam that?
1) It's supposed to be a Yoruba derived word. J. Olumide Lucas gave an explanation, of which I can only paraphrase since it's been a while...it had something to do with a Kemetian deity "Rpa" combined with the Yoruba expression "ye ye" which means to swear by this deity -- Ye Ye Rpa. Who knows, but there is a Kemetian deity named Roba or Ropa; also Yo in the Yoruba language can be compared to "Ioh/Yoh" or 'moon' in the Kemetian language. Remember the expression Ba-Ra-Ka or blessing; thus, Yo-Ra-Ba isn't implausible...
diffusion AND originality
2) In this discussion, I think what is being ignored is the very nature of African migrations throughout African history, even up to the very present. African workers today, if nothing else, are extremely mobile.
You had clusters of African peoples, originally, in the Great Lakes region, the Nile Valley, the Horn, the Sahara; populations ebbing and flowing.
--It's possible, and probably likely that the Tutsi, for example, started near the Great Lakes, emigrated into the fertile Sahara, later went into the Nile Valley, only to return centuries later to the Great Lakes region (and a very different people in terms of their experiences)...
--What is Ethiopia or Nigeria, for example, but a cluster of pan-African peoples?
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 15 November 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
BTW, what is the origin of the word Yoruba? Didn't the Hausa people call people who didn't pratice Islam that?
The word Yoruba is apparently derived from a derogatory term from the Hausa language. The original name for the Yoruba was Nango/Anango.
In fact many Yoruba descendants in Cuba and Brazil have used this term in the past. Use of the word Yoruba was a recent development (historically speaking) and I think can be traced back to Hausa contact with Europeans.
Additionally, Islam is widespread amongst the Yoruba and in some regions, e.g. Ilorin,it is the dominant religion.
[This message has been edited by fatai (edited 15 November 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
1) It's supposed to be a Yoruba derived word. J. Olumide Lucas gave an explanation, of which I can only paraphrase since it's been a while...it had something to do with a Kemetian deity "Rpa" combined with the Yoruba expression "ye ye" which means to swear by this deity -- Ye Ye Rpa. Who knows, but there is a Kemetian deity named Roba or Ropa; also Yo in the Yoruba language can be compared to "Ioh/Yoh" or 'moon' in the Kemetian language. Remember the expression Ba-Ra-Ka or blessing; thus, Yo-Ra-Ba isn't implausible...[b] diffusion AND originality
2) In this discussion, I think what is being ignored is the very nature of African migrations throughout African history, even up to the very present. African workers today, if nothing else, are extremely mobile.
You had clusters of African peoples, originally, in the Great Lakes region, the Nile Valley, the Horn, the Sahara; populations ebbing and flowing.--It's possible, and probably likely that the Tutsi, for example, started near the Great Lakes, emigrated into the fertile Sahara, later went into the Nile Valley, only to return centuries later to the Great Lakes region (and a very different people in terms of their experiences)...
--What is Ethiopia or Nigeria, for example, but a cluster of pan-African peoples?
And yet, we know the pregnant (and unasked) question then becomes: what happened?; to the writing; the building traditions (with stone); the advanced metal working; the artistic traditions?
Because of the rather poor state of archaeological understanding, especially within the tropical forest zone, linguistics has played a large role in African prehistory. Greenberg (1963) proposed that continental African languages fall into four major phyla: Niger-Congo (including the Atlantic, Mande, Voltaic, Kwa, Adamawa, and Bantu families), Nilo-Saharan (including east and central Sudanic, Saharan, and Songhai), Afroasiatic (Semitic, Berber, Cushitic, and Chadic), and Khoisan (San and Khoikhoi). It has been suggested that the initial development of the first three families took place somewhere between the Sahara and the equatorial forest (Blench 1993).
^^^
Map of Africa showing the samples used in the present work. The pie charts represent the haplogroup composition of the main African regions, combining some sub-clades for convenience, and excluding the contribution of haplogroups of non-African origin.
Source: The Making of the African mtDNA Landscape (2002)
[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 15 November 2004).]
One problem with this abstract is it said that no domesticable animals were found in sub-Saharan. The Guinea fowl is one of the only animals in sub-Sahara that is domesticable,but the rest are not domesticable. Also there is a rare goat amungst the Massai that is red haired that is found only in Kenya.
Also the main crop from Egypt such as barely originated either in the Nile Valley during the Paleolithic or was introduced from Ethiopia. The only other Near-Eastern Crop in ancient Egypt was emer wheat but this does not mean diffusion from the Near East. Cattle within Africa are domestic and have different mutations than Near-Eastern or European cattle breeds. The Donkey was most likely domesticated in North-Eastern Africa and spread to the Near-East.
Most modern linguist believe Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo are directly connected to each other.
quote:
And yet, we know the pregnant (and unasked) question then becomes: what happened?; to the writing; the building traditions (with stone); the advanced metal working; the artistic traditions?
1. Not everybody in ancient Kmt[Egypt] could read or write mdu ntr.
2. Western Africans had Iron metalurgy and the Haya people produced carbon steel. Ancent Egyptians only produced bronze and copper.
quote:
1. Not everybody in ancient Kmt[Egypt] could read or write mdu ntr.
2. Western Africans had Iron metalurgy and the Haya people produced carbon steel. Ancent Egyptians only produced bronze and copper.
Ausar, good points; didn't know about the Haya making carbon steel? Any more info on that?
quote:
Ausar, good points; didn't know about the Haya making carbon steel? Any more info on that?
The resercher on African matalurgy is Peter Schmidt and D.H. Avery. Schmidt has written many good books on the archaeology of Africa.
See the following abstract:
http://jfa-www.bu.edu/Abstracts/S/SchmidtP_10_4.html
quote:
J. Olumide Lucas, (a Yoruba), "The religion of the Yorubas", first published 1948,
republished by Athelia Henrietta Press, Brooklyn, NY, 1996. (see p. 349 forsources which speak of Yoruba migration from the Nile Valley. As I said, the linguistic evidence is corroborative.)
The Yoruba word for crocodile is Oni and is used interchangeably in addressing the Ooni of Ife. See "Egyptian Hieroglyphics" by StephaneRossini, published by Dover Inc. See also "A Hieroglyphic Vocabulary" by
E.A. Wallis Budge, especially pages 321, 322, 323, 392, 394,.See"Lettre a M.
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 15 November 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by ausar:The Central Saharan and Southern Saharan origin has already been proven since the people of the rock art pratice similar rituals to modern day Fulani people.
Actually, the fulani/fulbe people are more of a recent migration to Western African from the Nile Valley. Phenotypically, they approximate the ancient Egyptian look than other people in West Africa.
quote:
Originally posted by kembu:
Actually, the fulani/fulbe people are more of a recent migration to Western African from the Nile Valley.
Thought writes:
Genetic and linguistic data do NOT support this contention.
quote:
Actually, the fulani/fulbe people are more of a recent migration to Western African from the Nile Valley. Phenotypically, they approximate the ancient Egyptian look than other people in West Africa.
A Fulani historian named Amadoua Hampate Ba claims that the ritual shown in the Bovid rock art in the Sahara is similar to a modern ritual of the Fulani people that live in the modern day Sahel.
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
Ausar, good points; didn't know about the Haya making carbon steel? Any more info on that?
I think Unesco did a project about this a few years ago:
http://portal.unesco.org/es/ev.php-URL_ID=3432&URL_DO=DO_PRINTPAGE&URL_SECTION=201.html
quote:
Originally posted by fatai:
I think Unesco did a project about this a few years ago:
http://portal.unesco.org/es/ev.php-URL_ID=3432&URL_DO=DO_PRINTPAGE&URL_SECTION=201.html
Good stuff,thx.
quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:
Perhaps the connection between the AE and the mediveal Yoruba can be found in the Garamantian Empire which had an Egytpianized culture AND expanded its territory to Nigeria.
I thought the Garamantes were the direct ancestors of the Moors?
quote:
Originally posted by fatai:
This subject has generated much debate, but unfortunately not much archaeological work has been undertaken.Of great interest to me have been:
(1) The Nok terracottas from central Nigeria dated back to 1000BC (this is date is much earlier than the "official date" of 500/600BC and is due to advanced testing techniques outlined in the book):
http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/2876602423.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpgIf you can find a copy of the book in the jpg,(The Birth of Art in Africa), you'll see that many of these terracottas have very elaborate headresses (some of which resemble those of the Pharoahs). Some of them even have their beards braided.
Another sculpture in this style can be found in the first picture from the right on the web page below:
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/nok/hd_nok2.htm(2) The Dufuna Canoe found in Northern Nigeria near Lake Chad, dated from about 8000BC: http://www.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de/~sfb268/c7/dufuna.htm
(3) Ife Terracottas, Bronzes and monolith from South Western Nigeria: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/ifet/hd_ifet.htm
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/ife/hd_ife.htmThe Metropolitan Museum seems to back date this kingdom to 350BC, whereas most books state 500AD.
(4) The Igbo Ukwu of south-eastern Nigeria: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/igbo/hd_igbo.htm
Ironically, most of these items were discovered by ordinary people undertaking daily duties.
[This message has been edited by fatai (edited 14 November 2004).]
[This message has been edited by fatai (edited 14 November 2004).]
You see, I read about the Dufuna Canoe a little while ago. I think that as well as the discovery of the Uan Muhuggiag changes everything.
As far as the book goes, this author isn't saying that West African and Egyptians are different peoples.
He's saying the Akan of West Africa (11 tribes, 8 clans) were central to Egyptian society all throughout the pharonic period.
Even as late as the 26th dynasty. On page 350 he says "Psammetichus'" indigenous name is Asamoa Ateko I. Another Akan name. He easily discerns Akan names out of Egyptian history, from Menes (Omane) on.
The famous Egyptian sot "Djesekaraseneb" he says indigenous name is Gyasi Krasenboo.
He does this all throughout the book, venturing off into China and India as well.
He also has very bold things to say about the so-called "Sumerians" & "Akkadians".
I think it all comes down to your faith in linguistics.
quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought writes:Genetic and linguistic data do NOT support this contention.
What genetic data are you referring to specifically?
African linguistic classifications are still being studied, partly because it now appears that earlier classifications were somehow inaccurate. Much remains to be done in this area as yet.
But in terms of phenotype, it is clear that the Fulbe/fulani have more in common with ancient and modern Egyptian (fellahin) than any other ethnic group in West Africa. Fulbe have typically the modern Upper Egyptian look.
If you take the reconstructed faces of King Tut and the mummy believed to be Nefertiti and place them among West Africans, they would readily be identified as Fulbe.
The "recent" migration is a relative concept (circa 2000, as opposed to 30,000 years).
quote:
Originally posted by kembu:
Actually, the fulani/fulbe people are more of a recent migration to Western African from the Nile Valley.
quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought writes:
Genetic and linguistic data do NOT support this contention.
quote:
Wally
posted 23 September 2004 01:22 PM
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Here's a relevant response that I received from a recent visitor to my website commenting on my "referenced source categorization" of the Hamitic language grouping :quote:
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(the) Fulbe (Fulani) originate from the Nile Valley, not from Northwestern Africa. There is nothing in our tradition that links us with Berbers. I don't even know how that theory cropped up. How come Fulbe are placed in the Western Hamitic group?
BTW, I don't dig the "hamitic"/"semitic" classifications. They just don't seem to make any sense. Africans are just Africans. Jim Crow laws would have applied to all of us, regardless of these hamitic/bantu classifications.
Great site, though.
Best Regards,I...... S....... Bah
Mr. Bah also sent me photos of himself and his family, who are definitely Fulani folk.
I really doubt that these various African ethnic groups (Yoruba, Wolof, Fulani, etc.) all got together one fine day and decided to spin a common tale about all of them originating from the Nile valley...
quote:
I really doubt that these various African ethnic groups (Yoruba, Wolof, Fulani, etc.) all got together one fine day and decided to spin a common tale about all of them originating from the Nile valley...
Well, oral history can sometimes be manipulated by the right parities. Many Western African groups when they adopted Islam often made some false pedigrees to trace them back to Mecca. The same phenomenon happened with some people amungst the Fellahin in Upper Egypt. This is why I am sometimes cautious about these claims. The Songhai would have you believe they originated in Yemen, and the Hausa would have you believe they originated in Iraq. Neither one of these are true.
Read Amadou Hamparte Ba's work in english or French about the Saharan origin of the Fulani people. He matched the rituals of the rock art with his own people's modern pratice with cattle.
quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
Well, oral history can sometimes be manipulated by the right parities. Many Western African groups when they adopted Islam often made some false pedigrees to trace them back to Mecca. The same phenomenon happened with some people amungst the Fellahin in Upper Egypt. This is why I am sometimes cautious about these claims. The Songhai would have you believe they originated in Yemen, and the Hausa would have you believe they originated in Iraq. Neither one of these are true.
Read Amadou Hamparte Ba's work in english or French about the Saharan origin of the Fulani people. He matched the rituals of the rock art with his own people's modern pratice with cattle.
Yes, yes, I know.-and the Swahili people who say they're from Persia, and all Moslem people try to place themselves in and around Mecca.
What I was getting at, was like these people certainly spent some time in Kemet. There original home is another story.
Will find and read that book! Thanx
Thought Writes:
M1 is the most common mtDNA Haplotype in the Nile Valley and East Africa. E3b is the most common Y-Chromosome Haplotype in the Nile Valley and East Africa.
In Rosa et al. 2004 the Fulani sample from the Republic of Guine Bissau LACK the M1 marker. On the other hand, in the same study the M1 marker is found in the Balanta, Bijago and Beafada ethnic groups.
In Cruciani et al 2004 the E3b marker is NOT found in Fulani from Niger and Nigeria, but is found in the Mandenka from Senegal.
{African linguistic classifications are still being studied, partly because it now appears that earlier classifications were somehow inaccurate. }
Thought Writes:
Can you show me a linguistic analysis that classifies Fula in the Afro-Asiatic phylum?
{But in terms of phenotype, it is clear that the Fulbe/fulani have more in common with ancient and modern Egyptian (fellahin) than any other ethnic group in West Africa.}
Sight Writes:
That would depend on what part of AE one was studying and during which time period. Africans with elongated and broad features were present in AE, although the elongated type dominated.
{Fulbe have typically the modern Upper Egyptian look.}
Sight Writes:
What about Wolof and/or Tuareg?
quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:
{What genetic data are you referring to specifically?}Thought Writes:
M1 is the most common mtDNA Haplotype in the Nile Valley and East Africa. E3b is the most common Y-Chromosome Haplotype in the Nile Valley and East Africa.
In Rosa et al. 2004 the Fulani sample from the Republic of Guine Bissau LACK the M1 marker. On the other hand, in the same study the M1 marker is found in the Balanta, Bijago and Beafada ethnic groups.
In Cruciani et al 2004 the E3b marker is NOT found in Fulani from Niger and Nigeria, but is found in the Mandenka from Senegal.
So in essence, are you saying that Mandinkas resemble Nile Valley/East African peoples than Fulanis?
Sorry, I don't buy this. Does it not surprise you that there are several so-called genetic studies on DNA markers of Nile Valley peoples that have been proffered on this issue, all with different conclusions? That includes some studies that indicate that the ancient Egyptians were predominantly caucasoid and far-removed from sub-Saharan Africans.
The typical ancient Egyptian approximates the coastal East African type, as the reconstructed faces of the King Tut and Nefertiti mummy demonstrate. Fulani/fulbe resemble East Africans than other people in West Africa. That's why they are regarded as "hamitic" people, just like Bejas, Afars, etc.
A better approach is to observe the physical characteristics of a people and compare them to others for similarities or differences. This was the approach used to establish the Africanness of the ancient Egyptians. There is no need to adduce "genetic" evidence that cannot be substantiated.
Culturally, there is not a huge variation among African peoples, both ancient and modern. So you will definitely find overlaps among several peoples, some as a coincidence, others, as a result of diffusion perhaps. But much work needs to be done in African anthropology before we can come to certain conclusions.
That's why these issues need to be invistigated with a mult-disciplinary approach. Phenotype/genotype/linguistics/archeology must all be brought to bear.
quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
Dada...that stuff is pure garbage. You can do better.
(1) There are numerous bird-man and sphinx-type sculptures found amongst the Nok terracottas, but the ones that have been dated are much later (e.g. AD50 and AD250) than the earliest human sculptures (i.e. 1000BC - 500 BC). This has always puzzled me.
Most of these are in private collection but the Bernard de Grunne book has a couple of nice pictures.
(2) What do you guys make of the "tribal" mask-wearing paintings of Tassili. For example the masked dancer from Inaouanrhat as featured in the Frank Willett book "African Art"
(3) Have you guys seen the featureless/faceless (no mouth, nose or eyes!!!)paintings of Tassili. Willett's book contains a picture of one found at Tin Teferiest. Curiously featureless stone sculptures of a similar type are found throughout the Yorubaland but they are much later in date.
[This message has been edited by fatai (edited 17 November 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by kembu:
So in essence, are you saying that Mandinkas resemble Nile Valley/East African peoples than Fulanis?
I think you'll find that Fulanis come in many different types, it tends to depend on their country of origin.
The pictures in the links below provide an interesting cross section of Nigerian Fulanis:
http://www.motherlandnigeria.com/pictures/fulani_dancers.jpg
http://www.motherlandnigeria.com/pictures/fulani_and_daughter.jpg
http://www.motherlandnigeria.com/pictures/nomad_fulani_girl.jpg
quote:
Originally posted by kembu:
So in essence, are you saying that Mandinkas resemble Nile Valley/East African peoples than Fulanis?Sorry, I don't buy this. Does it not surprise you that there are several so-called genetic studies on DNA markers of Nile Valley peoples that have been proffered on this issue, all with different conclusions? That includes some studies that indicate that the ancient Egyptians were predominantly caucasoid and far-removed from sub-Saharan Africans.
The typical ancient Egyptian approximates the coastal East African type, as the reconstructed faces of the King Tut and Nefertiti mummy demonstrate. Fulani/fulbe resemble East Africans than other people in West Africa. That's why they are regarded as "hamitic" people, just like Bejas, Afars, etc.
A better approach is to observe the physical characteristics of a people and compare them to others for similarities or differences. This was the approach used to establish the Africanness of the ancient Egyptians. There is no need to adduce "genetic" evidence that cannot be substantiated.
Culturally, there is not a huge variation among African peoples, both ancient and modern. So you will definitely find overlaps among several peoples, some as a coincidence, others, as a result of diffusion perhaps. But much work needs to be done in African anthropology before we can come to certain conclusions.
Thought Writes:
This is the sort of racial paradigm that we are attempting to move beyond. Physical features alone do not indicate lineage or descent. Fulani are no closer to the Nile Valley populations than the Yoruba. However all of these African groups (Nile Valley, Horn of Africa, East, West and Central Africa) are closely linked based upon the PN2 Clade.
quote:
Originally posted by fatai:
I think you'll find that Fulanis come in many different types, it tends to depend on their country of origin.The pictures in the links below provide an interesting cross section of Nigerian Fulanis:
http://www.motherlandnigeria.com/pictures/fulani_dancers.jpg
http://www.motherlandnigeria.com/pictures/fulani_and_daughter.jpg
http://www.motherlandnigeria.com/pictures/nomad_fulani_girl.jpg
True. But most Nigerian Fulanis tend to have Hausa admixture even though culturally they identify as Fulani. Others prefer to be called Hausa-Fulani.
Still, even without admixture, it's common to have different types within one group of people (e.g., ancient Egyptians). But on the average, Fulbe look more like coastal East Africans (Beja, Afar, Ethiopians) than other West Africans. That's the point.
quote:
Originally posted by kembu:
True. But most Nigerian Fulanis tend to have Hausa admixture even though culturally they identify as Fulani. Others prefer to be called Hausa-Fulani.Still, even without admixture, it's common to have different types within one group of people (e.g., ancient Egyptians). But on the average, Fulbe look more like coastal East Africans (Beja, Afar, Ethiopians) than other West Africans. That's the point.
That's a good point. It brings to mind the whole Tuareg debate that often crops up.
quote:
Originally posted by fatai:
That's a good point. It brings to mind the whole Tuareg debate that often crops up.
Thought Writes:
Perhaps other West Africans migrated from the dessicating Sahara LATER than the Fulani and hence had more time to assimilate the indigenous dimunitive people of West Africa. The so-called "East African" look is best described as a SAHELIAN LOOK (or phenotypic adaptation). The dry/hot sahel stretches into West Africa as well, however this region is THINNER in West Africa than it was during the Holocene humid maximum phase.
quote:
Originally posted by kembu:
So in essence, are you saying that Mandinkas resemble Nile Valley/East African peoples than Fulanis?Sorry, I don't buy this.
So then, what are the Mandinkas supposed to look like?
a) (sudanic vs nilotic?)
b) (mandinka/fulani?)
c) (who cares?)
d) (must go to the restroom now, i'll be back!)
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 19 November 2004).]
quote:Excellent suggestion. As I always say, it will take some time before most people in West Africa and in Euro-Western societies to accept the truth of this thead's title.
Originally posted by Dada Afre:
I suggest all interested parties and aspiring Egyptologists take a ganders into this book. It has a wealth of information. When you're done and you’re still not convinced, do some independent studying and see what you find.
quote:Are you implying there were no cultural influence in Egypt from the levant? I have very hard time believing that.
Doug M:
There are many, many similarities between ancient Egypt and other parts of Africa, primarily because Egypt was an African culture from top to bottom.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:Conservative or not, Egypt lies next door to Palestine Syria/lebanon, Egypt getting no cultural influence from these societies who are much closer than the majority of african countries would be very unique, not to mention extremly odd and bizzare, taking into account the lengtht of the AE society.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ In terms of culture, the Egyptians were highly coservative and have recieved little if any influence from others. If you are suggesting they had influence from the Levant, then present evidence of this for I have seen non as of yet.
As for the topic of this thread itself, Doug is correct that whatever similarities Egyptian culture has to other African cultures can only be due to a common African origin, and in the case of West Africa, likely a common Saharan origin.
Other than that, it is ridiculous and absurd to state Akan or any West African group were "the core" of Egyptian civilization.
quote:I understand your point. I don't doubt the possiblity of cultural influence between Egypt and the Levant; it's just that all the evidence points to the other way around-- Egypt influencing the Levant. We have Siniatic script and the Phoenician alphabet as evidence of this.
Originally posted by Yonis2:
Conservative or not, Egypt lies next door to Palestine Syria/lebanon, Egypt getting no cultural influence from these societies who are much closer than the majority of african countries would be very unique, not to mention extremly odd and bizzare, taking into account the lengtht of the AE society.
quote:Not all the woods. Yes, their cedar came from Lebanon, but their ebony came from the south into deeper Sudan. Other woods were native coming from local palm trees.
Btw weren't almost all woods found in Egypt imported from lebanon, like the ceddar woods many egyptian artifacts are made of which are only found on the highlands of Lebanon?
quote:What about the Chariot, it was an important military tool for the Egyptians but imported from the levant.
Djehuti:
The only thing I can think of in terms of the Levant having a cultural influence on Egypt was in the respect of certain species of crops like barley which took place in late predynastic times. Other than that, I am uncertain of other things. I believe pottery of Lower Egypt such as those from Maadi may also be from Levantine influence, but I'm unsure.
quote:Com'n all cultures that have economic relationship have cultural relationship by default, that's just the natural way of it.
All of this by the way just shows economic influence moreso than cultural influence
quote:First off, it is not ridiculous to claim that any Black African group in West Africa today are or one of the core descendants of Ancient Kemetians. It is a valid hypothesis only requiring extended and thorough analysis in addition to the wonderful studies that have already been done to prove this. What is ridiculous are attempts to throw such valid but highly unpopular view (to Eurocentrics) by the waste side in the name of easing the aching Eurocentric mind. Such attempts are also a show of narrow mindedness. No matter how you swing it, people eventually begin to write their own history independent of outside plagiarism.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ In terms of culture, the Egyptians were highly coservative and have recieved little if any influence from others. If you are suggesting they had influence from the Levant, then present evidence of this for I have seen non as of yet.
As for the topic of this thread itself, Doug is correct that whatever similarities Egyptian culture has to other African cultures can only be due to a common African origin, and in the case of West Africa, likely a common Saharan origin.
Other than that, it is ridiculous and absurd to state Akan or any West African group were "the core" of Egyptian civilization.
quote:
Kemsonreloaded:
First off, it is not ridiculous to claim that any Black African group in West Africa today are or one of the core descendants of Ancient Kemetians . It is a valid hypothesis only requiring extended and thorough analysis in addition to the wonderful studies that have already been done to prove this.
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Rasol:
This is superfluous and irrelevant since many African cultures have similarities. This does not demonstrate Egyptian origin. In fact, you yourself claim that the Yoruba of Nigeria and other Native West Africans also have such cultural similarities - the more common such similarites are among different Africans, the more diffuse the possible origins are. This does not prove Egyptian or Ethiopian origin.
quote:If one was to follow your logic, then it is suffice to state that there is no recorded evidence of biblical exodus and people should end the mixture of tired myths in place of real scientific evidences. In addition, this ugly idea of cutting off Bantu from the rest of ancient Black African civilization is really a waste of time due to the impossibility. Furthermore, the so-called idea of recorded migration of the Bantu rests almost totally on anthropology (mostly linguistic) studies. Therefore, the same exact discipline can be applied in proving the natural genetic relationship between Bantu and Ancient Kemet. Oh wait, didn’t Cheikh Anta Diop and Dr. Théophile Obenga and others do this already? I guess we should just sweep it underneath the rug huh? If anything is done for political reason and of wishful and “unhealthy admiration”, it is the failing foreign attempts in forcing people to see history and people relationships through the filters of unrealistic and ridiculous Euro-Western epitaphs similar to the very ones I’m responding to now.
Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:
Kemsonreloaded:
First off, it is not ridiculous to claim that any Black African group in West Africa today are or one of the core descendants of Ancient Kemetians . It is a valid hypothesis only requiring extended and thorough analysis in addition to the wonderful studies that have already been done to prove this.
There is no recorded extensive exodus of Ancient Egyptians south westwards, your assertion is either based on political reasons or wishfull thinking due to unhealthy admiration.
quote:Yes, but there isn't any linguistic close relationship between Bantu languages and ancient Egyptian languages so your point gets quite moot anyway.
Kemsonreloaded:
Furthermore, the so-called idea of recorded migration of the Bantu rests almost totally on anthropology (mostly linguistic) studies. Therefore, the same exact discipline can be applied in proving the natural genetic relationship between Bantu and Ancient Kemet .
quote:Kiswahili-Bantu (BANTU) and Ancient Egyptian Genetic Relationship Demonstrated.
Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Yes, but there isn't any linguistic close relationship between Bantu languages and ancient Egyptian languages so your point gets quite moot anyway.
Kemsonreloaded:
Furthermore, the so-called idea of recorded migration of the Bantu rests almost totally on anthropology (mostly linguistic) studies. Therefore, the same exact discipline can be applied in proving the natural genetic relationship between Bantu and Ancient Kemet .
quote:Kiswahili is a creole language a language that is heavilly influenced recently between omanis and other gulf arab connection mixed with kenyan and Tanzanian Kikuyu bantu. This doesn't qualify as a real Bántu language, so please try again with something more resourceful and reliable.
Originally posted by KemsonReloaded:
quote:Kiswahili-Bantu (BANTU) and Ancient Egyptian Genetic Relationship Demonstrated.
Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Yes, but there isn't any linguistic close relationship between Bantu languages and ancient Egyptian languages so your point gets quite moot anyway.
Kemsonreloaded:
Furthermore, the so-called idea of recorded migration of the Bantu rests almost totally on anthropology (mostly linguistic) studies. Therefore, the same exact discipline can be applied in proving the natural genetic relationship between Bantu and Ancient Kemet .
Ongoing studies and references like the one just above this sentence proves my point correct. If my point gets moot as you erroneously claimed, then your point is an outright lie!
quote:Then please demonstrate your point and show why it is not resourceful and realiable.
Originally posted by Yonis2:
...Kiswahili is a creole language a language that is heavilly influenced recently between omanis and other gulf arab colonizers mixed with kenyan and Tanzanian Kikuyu bantu. This doesn't qualify as a real Bántu language, so please try again with something more resourceful and reliable.
quote:You don't even know what your talking about, Igbo, Yoruba and Wolof are not Bantu languages.
Kemsonreloadead:
Other well known Bantu languages such as Yoruba, Igbo and Wolof have been demonstrated in proving thier genetic relationship with ancient Mdu-Ntr. For Eurocentrics, linguistics this is the end game.
quote:
Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:You don't even know what your talking about, Igbo, Yoruba and Wolof are not Bantu languages.
Kemsonreloadead:
Other well known Bantu languages such as Yoruba, Igbo and Wolof have been demonstrated in proving thier genetic relationship with ancient Mdu-Ntr. For Eurocentrics, linguistics this is the end game.
These are Atlantic-congo languages.
Bantu is mainly spoken in central, south and south eastern Africa.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
I am seriously hoping you are a genuine student in High school wanting to learn about African history and its' people. If this is the case, I commend you for your efforts. Other than this, you need serious help. How can you use the incorrect and non-existent term "Atlantic-Congo" not realizing Congo is in central part of Africa? This kind of breach of common knowledge should force any to take an advice my grandmother used to give to me all the time: "Use your ears and mouth in the other in which they were created. Listen twice and speak once."
quote:Whatever my friend, Igbo, Yoruba and Wolof are still not Bantu languages.
Originally posted by KemsonReloaded:
quote:
Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:You don't even know what your talking about, Igbo, Yoruba and Wolof are not Bantu languages.
Kemsonreloadead:
Other well known Bantu languages such as Yoruba, Igbo and Wolof have been demonstrated in proving thier genetic relationship with ancient Mdu-Ntr. For Eurocentrics, linguistics this is the end game.
These are Atlantic-congo languages.
Bantu is mainly spoken in central, south and south eastern Africa.
quote:You are wrong there is considerable evidence of an exodus of Egyyptians into Kush and probably other parts of Africa.
Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:
Kemsonreloaded:
First off, it is not ridiculous to claim that any Black African group in West Africa today are or one of the core descendants of Ancient Kemetians . It is a valid hypothesis only requiring extended and thorough analysis in addition to the wonderful studies that have already been done to prove this.
There is no recorded extensive exodus of Ancient Egyptians south westwards, your assertion is either based on political reasons or wishfull thinking due to unhealthy admiration.
quote:Yes but if these people migrated then it would be southwards the direction into sudan, but certainly not the whole way to west africa which would be almost a whole planet away considering the transportation used in ancient times.
Clyde Winters:
Other ancient Egyptian caused political and military conflicts that led many Egyptians to migrate out of Egypt into Nubia and Kush. Herodotus’ mentions the mutiny of Psamtik I’s frontier garrison at Elephantine—these deerters moved into Kush. Moreover, the archaizing trend in Kush among the post Twenty-Fifth Dynasty Kings testfy to a possible large migration of Egyptians into Kush.
quote:Yet you haven't given one demonstration proving or reference demonstrating examples to support your views. I can only hope people with views similar to yours get help fast.
Originally posted by Yonis2:
Your attempt of covering this won't go any further.
The limited knowledge of yours is exposed even though you want to convince us you actually know everything about African languages as a whole in depth.
You can't even scratch the surface
quote:It is well known that the Bantu languages and Egyptian are genetically related. The dynamics of this relationship have been worked out by Th. Obenga, Alain Anselin, Oscar Pfouma and Gilbert Ngom.
Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Yes, but there isn't any linguistic close relationship between Bantu languages and ancient Egyptian languages so your point gets quite moot anyway.
Kemsonreloaded:
Furthermore, the so-called idea of recorded migration of the Bantu rests almost totally on anthropology (mostly linguistic) studies. Therefore, the same exact discipline can be applied in proving the natural genetic relationship between Bantu and Ancient Kemet .
quote:Yoruba is not a Bantu language, nor is Wolof but these langauges are related to ancient Egyptian.
Originally posted by KemsonReloaded:
quote:Then please demonstrate your point and show why it is not resourceful and realiable.
Originally posted by Yonis2:
...Kiswahili is a creole language a language that is heavilly influenced recently between omanis and other gulf arab colonizers mixed with kenyan and Tanzanian Kikuyu bantu. This doesn't qualify as a real Bántu language, so please try again with something more resourceful and reliable.
Other well known Bantu languages such as Yoruba, Igbo and Wolof have been demonstrated, proving thier genetic relationship with ancient Mdu-Ntr simply because Mdu-Ntr survives with Black Africans. For Eurocentrics, linguistics is the end game to the lies. I smile with a father-like wisdom because attempting to take on the details on any Bantu languge is going to be a devistating one, especialy when most Eurocentrics don't speak any Bantu language and/or know them fluently enough to carry on a conversation, let alone demostrating a naive perception of lack of genetic relationship.
quote:in early africa carbon steel was produced in certain parts of west africa as well,like mali,songhay etc... and in other parts of africa.i know kush and kingdoms later in the sudan produced it as well.stone WAS used too in other parts of africa outside of egypt,but of course you knew that.
Originally posted by ausar:
quote:1. Not everybody in ancient Kmt[Egypt] could read or write mdu ntr.
And yet, we know the pregnant (and unasked) question then becomes: what happened?; to the writing; the building traditions (with stone); the advanced metal working; the artistic traditions?
2. Western Africans had Iron metalurgy and the Haya people produced carbon steel. Ancent Egyptians only produced bronze and copper.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:Not only that, West Africans have failed to really look at their history and write an authentic history of the area which would allow people to see the long history of West Africa, besides the Muslim African kingdoms.
Originally posted by Young H*O*R*U*S:
I think the problem here is that us West Africans have not had much benefit of having our great past revealed as the Nile Valley folk have. However, when we study Ancient Egypt (often in search for our "percieved" lost identity), there seems to be a very deep spiritual stirring that occurs (that doesn't occur when studying, say an Ancient Greece) that pushes us to want to "claim" it for ourseleves... (this is what happened to me many years ago) because in the end, I think we will find that much of what we learn about Ancient Egypt applies to West Africa. Much of what we are looking for is already before us - but as it was documented by the Ancient Egyptians. This is very tantalizing to the (West African) seeker's mind.
We (West Africans) and other Africans must carry on learning whatever we can from AE but we must also start doing our own archeology and research. Soon, I think, the full story of Africa will be told and then there will be no need for anyone to "claim" or "steal" history.
quote:
Originally posted by Young H*O*R*U*S:
I think the problem here is that us West Africans have not had much benefit of having our great past revealed as the Nile Valley folk have. However, when we study Ancient Egypt (often in search for our "percieved" lost identity), there seems to be a very deep spiritual stirring that occurs (that doesn't occur when studying, say an Ancient Greece) that pushes us to want to "claim" it for ourseleves... (this is what happened to me many years ago) because in the end, I think we will find that much of what we learn about Ancient Egypt applies to West Africa. Much of what we are looking for is already before us - but as it was documented by the Ancient Egyptians. This is very tantalizing to the (West African) seeker's mind.
We (West Africans) and other Africans must carry on learning whatever we can from AE but we must also start doing our own archeology and research. Soon, I think, the full story of Africa will be told and then there will be no need for anyone to "claim" or "steal" history.
quote:Absolutely! West Africa has a great antiquity of its own, and it does no good and is in fact insulting to attribute these cultural achievements to Egyptians or other Nile Valley people!
Originally posted by Young H*O*R*U*S:
I think the problem here is that us West Africans have not had much benefit of having our great past revealed as the Nile Valley folk have. However, when we study Ancient Egypt (often in search for our "percieved" lost identity), there seems to be a very deep spiritual stirring that occurs (that doesn't occur when studying, say an Ancient Greece) that pushes us to want to "claim" it for ourseleves... (this is what happened to me many years ago) because in the end, I think we will find that much of what we learn about Ancient Egypt applies to West Africa. Much of what we are looking for is already before us - but as it was documented by the Ancient Egyptians. This is very tantalizing to the (West African) seeker's mind.
We (West Africans) and other Africans must carry on learning whatever we can from AE but we must also start doing our own archeology and research. Soon, I think, the full story of Africa will be told and then there will be no need for anyone to "claim" or "steal" history.
quote:I would if you would kindly point me in the direction of this thread.
Originally posted by alTakruri:
So why don't you spread the word by contributing to the Orishas in the West thread?
quote:
Originally posted by Young H*O*R*U*S:
I think the problem here is that us West Africans have not had much benefit of having our great past revealed as the Nile Valley folk have. However, when we study Ancient Egypt (often in search for our "percieved" lost identity), there seems to be a very deep spiritual stirring that occurs (that doesn't occur when studying, say an Ancient Greece) that pushes us to want to "claim" it for ourseleves... (this is what happened to me many years ago) because in the end, I think we will find that much of what we learn about Ancient Egypt applies to West Africa. Much of what we are looking for is already before us - but as it was documented by the Ancient Egyptians. This is very tantalizing to the (West African) seeker's mind.
We (West Africans) and other Africans must carry on learning whatever we can from AE but we must also start doing our own archeology and research. Soon, I think, the full story of Africa will be told and then there will be no need for anyone to "claim" or "steal" history.
quote:Don't quit your job. But your idea about making this a hobby is a great idea.
Originally posted by Young H*O*R*U*S:
quote:I would if you would kindly point me in the direction of this thread.
Originally posted by alTakruri:
So why don't you spread the word by contributing to the Orishas in the West thread?
quote:
Originally posted by Young H*O*R*U*S:
I think the problem here is that us West Africans have not had much benefit of having our great past revealed as the Nile Valley folk have. However, when we study Ancient Egypt (often in search for our "percieved" lost identity), there seems to be a very deep spiritual stirring that occurs (that doesn't occur when studying, say an Ancient Greece) that pushes us to want to "claim" it for ourseleves... (this is what happened to me many years ago) because in the end, I think we will find that much of what we learn about Ancient Egypt applies to West Africa. Much of what we are looking for is already before us - but as it was documented by the Ancient Egyptians. This is very tantalizing to the (West African) seeker's mind.
We (West Africans) and other Africans must carry on learning whatever we can from AE but we must also start doing our own archeology and research. Soon, I think, the full story of Africa will be told and then there will be no need for anyone to "claim" or "steal" history.
If I could quit my current career (re: money tree), I would actually take this on as a full-time hobby/occupation for the sake of my (future) children. However unfortunately, I have not yet been able to fully liberate myself from "the system". Not yet...
quote:
Originally posted by Young H*O*R*U*S:
quote:I would if you would kindly point me in the direction of this thread.
Originally posted by alTakruri:
So why don't you spread the word by contributing to the Orishas in the West thread?
quote:
Originally posted by Young H*O*R*U*S:
I think the problem here is that us West Africans have not had much benefit of having our great past revealed as the Nile Valley folk have. However, when we study Ancient Egypt (often in search for our "percieved" lost identity), there seems to be a very deep spiritual stirring that occurs (that doesn't occur when studying, say an Ancient Greece) that pushes us to want to "claim" it for ourseleves... (this is what happened to me many years ago) because in the end, I think we will find that much of what we learn about Ancient Egypt applies to West Africa. Much of what we are looking for is already before us - but as it was documented by the Ancient Egyptians. This is very tantalizing to the (West African) seeker's mind.
We (West Africans) and other Africans must carry on learning whatever we can from AE but we must also start doing our own archeology and research. Soon, I think, the full story of Africa will be told and then there will be no need for anyone to "claim" or "steal" history.
If I could quit my current career (re: money tree), I would actually take this on as a full-time hobby/occupation for the sake of my (future) children. However unfortunately, I have not yet been able to fully liberate myself from "the system". Not yet...
quote:Yes, the chariot may be another example. Although it wasn't actually invented in the Levant, but was imported there from Mesopotamia which was in turn imported from Indo-European speaking peoples who likely invented the device.
Originally posted by Yonis2:
What about the Chariot, it was an important military tool for the Egyptians but imported from the levant.
quote:Economic relationship implies an exchange or share in goods. Culture is about much more than that from language, to customs, to beliefs, dress etc.
Com'n all cultures that have economic relationship have cultural relationship by default, that's just the natural way of it.
quote:Which Indo-European speakers? Indo-European speakers covers a wide range of people from different geographical regions.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Yes, the chariot may be another example. Although it wasn't actually invented in the Levant, but was imported there from Mesopotamia which was in turn imported from Indo-European speaking peoples who likely invented the device.
quote:Adopted by *natives*; examples?
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Which reminds me that Egyptians did adopt certain deities from the Levant, which is another sign of influence.
quote:Why did the chariot have to be the creation of Indo-Europeans. many people had carts which would be the proto-type for the chariot.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Yes, the chariot may be another example. Although it wasn't actually invented in the Levant, but was imported there from Mesopotamia which was in turn imported from Indo-European speaking peoples who likely invented the device.
Originally posted by Yonis2:
What about the Chariot, it was an important military tool for the Egyptians but imported from the levant.
quote:Economic relationship implies an exchange or share in goods. Culture is about much more than that from language, to customs, to beliefs, dress etc.
Com'n all cultures that have economic relationship have cultural relationship by default, that's just the natural way of it.
Which reminds me that Egyptians did adopt certain deities from the Levant, which is another sign of influence.
quote:The earliest evidence of chariots in Southwest Asia come from Mesopotamia from an invading group called the Kassites. They appear to be a non-Indo-European speaking peoples with Indo-European influence especially with regards to their horses and chariots. The Hittites and especially the Mitanni became renowned for their chariot and equestrian skills.
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
Which Indo-European speakers? Indo-European speakers covers a wide range of people from different geographical regions.
quote:The goddess Anath and the god Resheph as well as the goddess Astareth. Ramses the Great even had a couple of daughters named after these Levantine goddesses like Bint Anat.
Adopted by *natives*; examples?
quote:Yes but chariots are specialized carts used for fast moblity and manoeuvrability as they were being pulled by horses. The Indus model of a wagon pulled by oxen is not a chariot by design.
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Why did the chariot have to be the creation of Indo-Europeans. many people had carts which would be the proto-type for the chariot.
Indus Cart
quote:You're right the Kassites were Dravidian speakers. This would still make the introduction of the chariot a non-Indo-European event.
The earliest evidence of chariots in Southwest Asia come from Mesopotamia from an invading group called the Kassites. They appear to be a non-Indo-European speaking peoples with Indo-European influence especially with regards to their horses and chariots. The Hittites and especially the Mitanni became renowned for their chariot and equestrian skills.
quote:First of all, the Kassites were not Dravidian speakers. And second, as I said their language had Indo-Europea influence and in particular words having to do with horses and chariots.
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
You're right the Kassites were Dravidian speakers. This would still make the introduction of the chariot a non-Indo-European event.
quote:This makes no sense. The gods of Indo-European speakers vary. Hatti is indeed a non I-E language but it is NOT Kushite.
The gods of the Indo-Europeans, and horse management terms are of Hattian origin. The Hatti also spoke a non-I-E language and appear to have been Kushites>Kaska.
quote:Not what the question asked for.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:The earliest evidence of chariots in Southwest Asia come from Mesopotamia from an invading group called the Kassites. They appear to be a non-Indo-European speaking peoples with Indo-European influence especially with regards to their horses and chariots. The Hittites and especially the Mitanni became renowned for their chariot and equestrian skills.
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
Which Indo-European speakers? Indo-European speakers covers a wide range of people from different geographical regions.
quote:Are we told who specifically worshipped "Anath, Resheph, and Astareth?
Originally posted Djehuti:
quote:The goddess Anath and the god Resheph as well as the goddess Astareth. Ramses the Great even had a couple of daughters named after these Levantine goddesses like Bint Anat.
Adopted by *natives*; examples?
quote:Well the answer you were looking for is that historians don't know. The words associated with chariots and horses appear to be words rooted in Armenian as well as Indo-Iranian.
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
Not what the question asked for.
quote:Yes. Delta Egyptians and even the 21st dynasty had adopted these deities.
Are we told who specifically worshipped "Anath, Resheph, and Astareth?
quote:Shaky at best. No specific region, no specific group or archaeological complex, no specific concrete archaeological evidence.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Well the answer you were looking for is that historians don't know. The words associated with chariots and horses appear to be words rooted in Armenian as well as Indo-Iranian.
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
Not what the question asked for.
quote:You know the drill; the question asks for *specifics* that you don't provide. "Delta Egyptians" tells me nothing about this specificity, nor does 21st Dynasty. For instance, when attempting to answer the question, you might want to think about things like what evidence tells that these gods were whorshipped by ordinary *native* Delta Egyptians, such that you'd generalize as you just did.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Yes. Delta Egyptians and even the 21st dynasty had adopted these deities.
Are we told who **specifically** worshipped "Anath, Resheph, and Astareth?
quote:Actually there are several archaeological complexes associated with horse and chariot technology including the Yamna culture north of the Caucasus, the Andronovo culture of Kazakstan, and the Yaz culture of northeaster Iran. Scholars just don't know which culture or from which people the Kassites recieved adopted the technology from.
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
Shaky at best. No specific region, no specific group or archaeological complex, no specific concrete archaeological evidence.
quote:There were temples to these Asiatic gods in several areas of the Delta, but mainly in Sais and again it is a known fact that they were adopted as patron deities by the Ramessides. How specific can you get??
You know the drill; the question asks for *specifics* that you don't provide. "Delta Egyptians" tells me nothing about this specificity, nor does 21st Dynasty. For instance, when attempting to answer the question, you might want to think about things like what evidence tells that these gods were whorshipped by ordinary *native* Delta Egyptians, such that you'd generalize as you just did.
quote:Would these be what you call the Indo-European people that you said you had no idea about earlier?
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Actually there are several archaeological complexes associated with horse and chariot technology including the Yamna culture north of the Caucasus, the Andronovo culture of Kazakstan, and the Yaz culture of northeaster Iran. Scholars just don't know which culture or from which people the Kassites recieved adopted the technology from.
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
Shaky at best. No specific region, no specific group or archaeological complex, no specific concrete archaeological evidence.
quote:How specific can you get you ask? Suffice to say that you've been forced to elaborate on your posts a little each time you were requested. Your post prior to the current post wasn't as specific as the current, nor was the one prior to that [as specific as its successor]. This renders your question awkward. So going back to your question, one can modify it this way: How much more specific can one get yet?
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:There were temples to these Asiatic gods in several areas of the Delta, but mainly in Sais and again it is a known fact that they were adopted as patron deities by the Ramessides. How specific can you get??
You know the drill; the question asks for *specifics* that you don't provide. "Delta Egyptians" tells me nothing about this specificity, nor does 21st Dynasty. For instance, when attempting to answer the question, you might want to think about things like what evidence tells that these gods were whorshipped by ordinary *native* Delta Egyptians, such that you'd generalize as you just did.
quote:Yes, these archaeological sites are associated with Indo-European speakers. But again historians don't know which group actually contributed to the introduction of chariots to the Mesopotamia via the Kassites. One theory suggests Yaz of northeastern Iran, another suggests Yamna above the Caucasus. They don't know specifically.
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
Would these be what you call the Indo-European people that you said you had no idea about earlier?
quote:LOL I don't know what all this hoopla is, but it's all for nothing. I simply brought up a simple fact that a few Asiatic deities were worshipped in the Egyptian Delta specifically by royals and you complain about it. Well I don't know what else you ask for.
How specific can you get you ask? Suffice to say that you've been forced to elaborate on your posts a little each time you were requested. Your post prior to the current post wasn't as specific as the current, nor was the one prior to that [as specific as its successor]. This renders your question awkward. So going back to your question, one can modify it this way: How much more specific can one get yet?
Well, how about this:
Yes, there are temples supposedly dedicated to one or the other of the examples of deities you presented; that goes without saying, as soon as you provided the said examples, but how does this tell us anything about what this meant to the ordinary *natives*. Synrochization with local deities in temples largely constructed for the elite sections of the societies, like the royalty and the high priests, simply suggests that it was done so for the sake strengthening Egyptian relations with their neighbouring regions, which have at some point or another came under the radar of Egyptian imperialistic intentions, even if the latter was undertake from a defensive standpoint by way of going on the offensive.
quote:So, your earlier response to this...
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Yes
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
Would these be what you call the Indo-European people that you said you had no idea about earlier?
quote:Back to the answer number 1 again. Of course, those same Indo-European speakers in the question recited, is what this comment was also about:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
But again historians don't know which group actually contributed to the introduction of chariots to the Mesopotamia via the Kassites.
quote:Takes us back to this:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
One theory suggests Yaz of northeastern Iran, another suggests Yamna above the Caucasus. They don't know specifically.
quote:It is called English. Learn it.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:LOL I don't know what all this hoopla is
How specific can you get you ask? Suffice to say that you've been forced to elaborate on your posts a little each time you were requested. Your post prior to the current post wasn't as specific as the current, nor was the one prior to that [as specific as its successor]. This renders your question awkward. So going back to your question, one can modify it this way: How much more specific can one get yet?
Well, how about this:
Yes, there are temples supposedly dedicated to one or the other of the examples of deities you presented; that goes without saying, as soon as you provided the said examples, but how does this tell us anything about what this meant to the ordinary *natives*. Synrochization with local deities in temples largely constructed for the elite sections of the societies, like the royalty and the high priests, simply suggests that it was done so for the sake strengthening Egyptian relations with their neighbouring regions, which have at some point or another came under the radar of Egyptian imperialistic intentions, even if the latter was undertake from a defensive standpoint by way of going on the offensive.
quote:Specify which part of the post is "all for nothing"?
Originally posted by Djehuti:
, but it's all for nothing.
quote:Which complaint? Please cite it. I simply ask you to justify your generalizations, and you cry about it.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
I simply brought up a simple fact that a few Asiatic deities were worshipped in the Egyptian Delta specifically by royals and you complain about it.
quote:Shouldn't you be worried about the outstanding unanswered questions, before you ask for more? LOL.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Well I don't know what else you ask for.
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
quote:Detractors are always looking in the wrong places.
“Go with our tears, wet upon your face, and represent our problems among the dead: be our medium.” By similar interpretation, the open mouth, with the lips rendered in relief, symbolizes the leader speaking to the dead: “the funeral is over and now he is talking in the other world. All niombo should have open mouths. This means there is speech in the other world.” …If the open mouth of the niombo brings parlance into the other world, and tears code messages of shared concern, the towering gesture of the niombo, right hand up, left hand down, in similarly significant. It maps the boundary to be crossed; it identifies the cord connecting life to death; it is “the crossroads pose.” … The niombo gesture…also marks a person’s transition from this world to the next. On behalf of his community, niombo hails the heavens and the horizon line. When you die you automatically become an ancestor. But not everyone becomes a niombo. Being buried in a niombo figure means the community believes this person will become our medium.
Robert Ferris Thompson Four Moments of the Sun
quote:"The african who wrote the Bible"?I thought it was the Hebrew prophets who did it.
Originally posted by Dada Afre:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/097019000X/qid=1100144147/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-3481765-9155904?v=glance&s=books
This author, Dr. Nana Banchie Darkwah, is a Akan (Ghanian) king. In his book "The Africans Who Wrote The Bible" he asserts that the Akan [ukAn´, Ak´un] people were the core of Egyptian society.
He primarily uses one discipline and that is linguistics. For example, everybody knows of the ancient king Akhenaten. In Dr. Darkwah's books he says that the name "Akhenaten" is a transposed African name. "Akhenaten" is the Greek translation of the royal (Denkyira) name "Akenten". Even today the current Denkyirahene king is named Nana (King) Oti Akenten.
Another example is the boy king "Tutankhamun". In his book Dr. Nana Banchie says this is another Greek translation of the royal Akuapem names "Tutu" and "Ankoma".
Dr. Darkwah is Aduana royalty himself and apparently he has a book called "Egypt: The story Africa has never told" in the works.
I have read "The Africans Who Wrote The Bible" several times and I must say I have accepted it as fact for several reasons.
1) Through cross refrencing I've found that Akan culture is identical to ancient Egyptian culture. For example, the Akan have matrilineal traditions. Another being the worship of Asaase Yaa (Isis) and Osoro (Osirus).
2) King Darkwah's linguistic expertise is undeniable. He says the first king to unite Egypt, "Menes", indigenous name is "Omane" and that is a Kwahu name. Another example is his assertion that the ancient city "Memphis" is really called "Mamfe" and is even a current Akuapem city.
3) When we discuss ancient Egyptians we talk as if they're extinct. True there are descendants of the ancient Egyptians still in Upper Egypt, the Horn of Africa and other East African areas but who can say the kingship is lost? Who can say the descendants of the ancient Egyptians are only concentrated in these areas?
4) I know a young guy who is very much into Egyptology. He's part Egyptian himself. I beat him in the head with my findings for a long time and he admits that the Akan (and other W. African groups like the Yoruba) may have very well been in Egypt during the Old Kingdom. That would explain the linguistic and cultural similarities.
5) I can't recall anytime in history where a African king writes a book discussing ancient secrets of his people. In his book he even has a picture of Akan furniture (Asesedwa) and this stool has the same exact design Egyptians had 4,000 years ago.
All of this is very hard to swallow for someone who has been looking into Egypt for as long as they can remember. I didn't pick up a book entitled "The Africans Who Wrote The Bible" expecting to learn anything about the Egyptians.
I suggest all interested parties and aspiring Egyptologists take a ganders into this book. It has a wealth of information. When you're done and you’re still not convinced, do some independent studying and see what you find.
When I did my studying I found out the Kwa language (Niger-Kordofanian) came from the Chadic languages. So called Semitic (Afro-Asiatic) languages.
I’ve also found that the Akan’s written language consists of symbols, just like the ancient Egyptians.
I have learned a lot by taking this angle to ancient Egypt. What do you think about this angle?
quote:That they have no idea specifically which group. There is evidence of horse and chariot technology in both the Russian steppes and in Central Asia.
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
So, your earlier response to this...
Which Indo-European speakers? Indo-European speakers covers a wide range of people from different geographical regions. - Djehuti
...that historians had no idea who they were, was false and that they did have an idea after all?
quote:Actually it's not that shaky. There are two main routes to which horse and chariot technology could have entered Southwest Asia, specifically Mesopotamia-- either through the Caucasus or through Iran. The reason why no precise archaeological record of introduction is found is simply because they don't even know exactly where the Kassites entered Mesopotamia from.
Back to the answer number 1 again. Of course, those same Indo-European speakers in the question recited, is what this comment was also about:
Shaky at best. No specific region, no specific group or archaeological complex, no specific concrete archaeological evidence. - Mystery Solver
These comments and questions from me are connected, you don't have to make the capacity to understand it complicated than it needs to be.
quote:Read the answer above.
Takes us back to this:
Shaky at best. No specific region, no specific group or archaeological complex, no specific concrete archaeological evidence. - Mystery Solver
quote:No, it's called arguing over nothing.
It is called English. Learn it.
quote:Everything that has already been answered.
Specify which part of the post is "all for nothing"?
quote:Whose "crying"?! LOL Looks like your ego has affected your head again.
Which complaint? Please cite it. I simply ask you to justify your generalizations, and you cry about it.
quote:Which ones? Everything has been answered.
Shouldn't you be worried about the outstanding unanswered questions, before you ask for more? LOL.
quote:Can you explain to us this Congo form of the ceremony? Are you suggesting that this is where the custom originated or that it originated in Egypt and spread to the Congo?
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
As I have stated numerous times, if you are going to look for connections, look at the cosmology of the people and the "meaning" behind their ceremonies. For instance, the opening of the mouth ceremony is still practiced in the Kongo to this date. And yes in the kongo they do mummifications (just rarely)
quote:...and therefore this constitutes that the said invention should be credited to "unknown" Indo-European speakers?
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:That they have no idea specifically which group. There is evidence of horse and chariot technology in both the Russian steppes and in Central Asia.
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
So, your earlier response to this...
Which Indo-European speakers? Indo-European speakers covers a wide range of people from different geographical regions. - Mystery Solver
...that historians had no idea who they were, was false and that they did have an idea after all?
quote:Well, if someone proclaims that "Indo-European" speakers - which is an appellation after a language superphylum that transcends various distinct ethnicities and geographies and almost akin to saying "Niger-Congo" or "Afrasan" speakers, telling us nothing about *specific* people as a part of a defined political unit - were the ones who introduced so and so invention to Mesopotamia [another generalized-political term of modern construct], and yet has no clue who these people *specifically* were, that would count as being sketchy or shaky.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Actually it's not that shaky. There are two main routes to which horse and chariot technology could have entered Southwest Asia, specifically Mesopotamia-- either through the Caucasus or through Iran. The reason why no precise archaeological record of introduction is found is simply because they don't even know exactly where the Kassites entered Mesopotamia from.
Back to the answer number 1 again. Of course, those same Indo-European speakers in the question recited, is what this comment was also about:
Shaky at best. No specific region, no specific group or archaeological complex, no specific concrete archaeological evidence. - Mystery Solver
These comments and questions from me are connected, you don't have to make the capacity to understand it complicated than it needs to be
quote:You do the same.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Read the answer above.
Takes us back to this:
Shaky at best. No specific region, no specific group or archaeological complex, no specific concrete archaeological evidence. - Mystery Solver
quote:Thanks for acknowledging that you don't know what English is. It's a start.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:No...
It is called English. Learn it.
quote:...like which part of the questions asked? Cite those parts.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Everything that has already been answered.
[Specify which part of the post is "all for nothing"?
quote:LOL Looks like your pms got the better of you, rendering your thinking capacity handicapped.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Whose "crying"?! LOL Looks like your ego has affected your head again.
Which complaint? Please cite it. I simply ask you to justify your generalizations, and you cry about it.
quote:Everything that you've convinced *yourself* has been answered, but in reality hasn't been.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Which ones? Everything has been answered.
Shouldn't you be worried about the outstanding unanswered questions, before you ask for more? LOL.