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Of course there were 'Horner' pharaohs
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: [QB] Originally posted by Akachi: [b] Nazlet Khater has consistently been found to be "Negroid" ("Niger-Congo" speakers/Sub Saharan African as consistently found to be the case below). People hinting at some sort of affinity with "Eurasians" are dumb as **** for their insinuation..[/b] [IMG]http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/6735/nazletkhateregypt.jpg[/IMG] [/b] Yes Nazlet Khater, an UP specimen, clusters with sub-Saharans, but the point you are missing is that both "negroids" (as you put it above) and "Sub-Saharans" are NOT JUST Niger Congo speakers. "Negroids" or "sub-Saharans" ALSO includes East Africans, like Horners. As assorted Eurocentrics fail to grasp, The Horn is located below the Sahara and is thus "Sub-Saharan". [IMG]http://oi59.tinypic.com/29f6nuu.jpg[/IMG] ^^You again seem to be missing the point. Ricaut repeatedly references the term "sub-Saharan, NOT West African" or "Niger Congo". It is Brace 2005 who he references in relation to "Niger COngo" speakers- and Brace 2005 ALSO clusters Egyptians with NON West Africans, including Nubians and Somalis. I did the Brace diagram over 2 years ago. It should be clear that Egyptians cluster primarily with Africans CLOSEST to them, as should be expected. [IMG]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-tKDclMoAkvE/U_YcSkP-zoI/AAAAAAAABJw/vj0CzHDQF8M/s1600/brace2005wandering.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/negskull.gif[/IMG] ^^This is from Madilda's website and keep in mind that "negro skulls" have the highest diversity in the world for Africans do have the highest phenotypic diversity. You are falling into the "true negro" trap where every "true" African has to have a broad nose or very pronounced prognathism. As such you are playing into Eurocentric hands. Let another graphic clarify the case for you much better than Madilda's "true negro" BS. [IMG]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-OX7hXrlASZc/U8ataZ3p8TI/AAAAAAAABCM/xxVm4h3JweY/s1600/tropical_african_diversity_nakt.jpg[/IMG] [b]Here is Keita's support for this stance: [i]"[b]The M2 lineage[/b] is mainly found primarily in "eastern", [b]"sub-saharan", and sub-equatorial African groups, those with the highest frequency of the "Broad" trend physiognomy[/b], but found also in [b]notable frequencies in Nubia and Upper Egypt[/b], as indicated by the RFLP TaqI 49a, f variant IV (see Lucotte and Mercier, 2003; Al-Zahery et al. 2003 for equivalecies of markers), which is affiliated with it. The distribution of these markers in other parts of Africa has usually been explained by the "Bantu migrations", [b]but their presence in the Nile Valley in non-Bantu speakers cannot be explained in this way.[/b] [b]Their existence is better explained by their being present in populations of the early Holocene Sahara, who in part went on to people the Nile Valley in the mid-Holocene[/b], according to Hassan (1988); this occurred long before the "Bantu migrations",[b]which also do not explain the high frequency of M2 in Senegal, since there are no Bantu speakers there either"[/b] . S.O.Y. Keita American Journal of Human Biology 16:679-689 (2004)[/i] [/b] Again note above. Keita is not evoking 'West Africans" he is talking sub-Saharan Africans which includes the Horn. Also note that he is skeptical about all encompassing "Bantu" migrations, as explanations for M2 in the region. [b]and Keita of course has been validated right here: [i] "We amplified 16 Y chromosomal, short tandem repeats (AmpF\STR Yfiler PCR amplification kit; Applied Biosystems).........Genetic kinship analyses revealed identical haplotypes in both mummies (table 1⇓); using the Whit Athey’s haplogroup predictor, [b]we determined the Y chromosomal haplogroup E1b1a[/b] " [/i] [/b] Of course... this describes Rameses 3. And as your Keita quote above notes, such elements would already have been present [i]"in populations of the early Holocene Sahara, who in part went on to people the Nile Valley in the mid-Holocene."[/i] So yes E1b1a is in the mix. Doesn't mean it is the only thing that defines all Egyptians. [IMG]http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/1899/rameses3dnaresults.jpg[/IMG] ==================================================== Your enthusiasm is commendable but in attempting to "West Africanize" the Nile Valley, you are falling into several traps- including the old "true negro" trap. As indicated to you before on Reloaded, (going by similar arguments and pic posts there) you need to carefully qualify your arguments, and build in enough flexibility to weather sharp attacks. You need to take account of time periods in Egyptian history. Things changed. By the New Kingdom era, Hyskos, assorted Asiatics, Libyans, etc etc were all in the mix not to mention contributions from normal trade and nomadic movement. You have to allow for that and not rely on sweeping statements. Trying to "West Africanize" everything is a failing strategy easily exposed by critics. In fact they love that for they can easily debunk such. You also need to recognize the full diversity of Africans, so that "West African looks" or DNA patterns are not asserted as some sort of sole validator of what is "truly" African. Your first post says: [b]The dominant group among the black Africans whom comprised ancient Egypt, was our group (Niger-Congo speaking, M2 lineage carrying, so called "true negroid"). Nilotes and Horners were there obviously, but no African group is more represented than our own.[/b] ^^But the group closest to ancient Egyptians is Nubians, who don't speak Niger Congo. Right off the bat you have compromised one of the key links in Ancient Egyptian history. You also fail to reference any archaeological, dental, limb or cranial data, again dismissing good sources of evidence. Finally when you mention "true negroid" you fail to right up front establish that "negroes" or "sub-Saharan" Africans have the highest phenotypic diversity in the world. Yes they can have narrow noses or light prognathism, or light brown skin and still be "negroes". By failing to establish this up front you immediately allow opponents to juxtapose broad nosed "Niger-Congo negroes" against aquiline nosed Egyptians. Which is precisely what they want.. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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