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Of course there were 'Horner' pharaohs
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: [QB] Now truthcentric since he just received a thorough ass kicking from a scientific point of view comes with us with fluff. I can hear the violins playing. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Truthcentric: The core problem I see with Akachi and Amun-Ra is that they seem to approach the Nile Valley civilizations from a Pan-African perspective. [/QUOTE]The problem is in your head, your own prejudice about pan-africanism. Pan-Africanism is not different than let's say the European Union or the Arab League. Africa is made of many different cultures. Which sometimes are related to each other topologically and in time. It's about analyzing population history and population movements and interactions through times. There's both similarities and differences between various African cultures in Africa. I know I sometimes sound like someone who wants to make Ancient Egyptians Africans as much as possible. But I'm also interested in authenticity. I don't want to claim Ancient Egyptians are Africans and related to the same cultural heritage from the Green Sahara than Yoruba, if that's not true. For me, its VERY important that it is in fact true. Not by twisting the truth so it becomes true. For me it's about following population history, migrations and interactions through time. For example, if the common origin in Eastern Africa and Green Sahara input was marginal and that most of Ancient Egyptians were mostly Eurasians (back migrants). Then there's no problem for me. If it's true. I've joined this forum after the DNA results were out. Before that I wasn't sure if Ancient Egyptians were truly Africans even if I read Diop's and similar works. Culturally, there was a lot of similarities, pointing to a common heritage. But at the same time, archaeological data didn't seem discriminative enough. Only ancient DNA provides enough discriminative power to follow population history and migrations especially at that time scale. For me, this is ALL about following population history and migrations. In other word, determining the real history of various African people. At the moment, based on what we know currently, I consider Ancient Egypt part of the African history in a similar way Ancient Greece is part of the European history. But still, I would need more ancient DNA results. I consider Pan-Africanism a worthy goal, the same way the European Union or the Arab League is. There's no need to twist the truth about Ancient Egypt in any way for that. The African Union exist already without Ancient Egypt's "Africanity" being mainstream or come into play in any way. I'm just forced to take into account the BMJ, JAMA and DNA Tribes results. I just can't look the other way. If past racists historians didn't try to say Ancient Egyptians were not Africans (to promote racism and prejudice against African people) then we would never have this discussion, as the burden of proof to prove that Ancient Egyptians were not Africans should be on the racist shoulders. Everybody would take as a given that Ancient Egyptians were black Africans. [QUOTE] Africans have always been genetically and culturally diverse and that one subset of them may be fraternal to OOA. [/QUOTE]Ok, but why do you want ONLY modern East African populations to be fraternal at the moment of the OOA migrations, instead of both East and West Africans for example? All CT carriers and all L3 carriers? (who btw continued to interact and admix with one another after the OOA migrations, developing among other thing the E, EP2, L3eikx, etc haplogroups. All subsequent to the OOA migrations). So why only East Africans, why not all CT carriers for example to be more fraternal with OOA migrants at the moment of the OOA migrations? Why only East Africans instead of both East and West Africans and all CT/L3 carriers in general? That sounds like the hamitic race myth, but for what and based on what? [QUOTE] I'm all for portraying ancient Egypto-Nubian civilization as an indigenous African development and don't like the pop-culture trend to whitewash (or tanwash) them one bit. I also think connections between the Nile Valley and other regions of Africa are worth looking into. [/QUOTE]We agree on this. [QUOTE] What's problematic is the insinuation by the Pan-African mindset that Africa was always a single, genetically and culturally homogeneous country. Why can't African people have different cultures and phenotypes just like people on other continents? [/QUOTE]Nobody believe that in Africa. Each African countries, even small regions, is made of many different people, culture, languages, phenotypes, etc. Often related to each others in term of migrations and history. For example, all Niger-Congo speakers shared a common history at one point. I prefer to talk about unity in diversity for Africa and the world in general. [QUOTE] Furthermore, the construct of "Black African" is a fundamentally European one that was imposed onto Africans. Prior to the European "colonial" invasions, I don't think ancient Egyptians, Nubians, Zulus, Yoruba, etc. would have agreed on a common Black identity that brought them together. They probably would have conceived themselves more along the lines of culture or nationality just like people elsewhere in the world. As to whether ancient Egyptians or Nubians would have identified as Black people had their culture and phenotype persisted to the modern post-colonial era, that we can only speculate. [/QUOTE]I don't think German, Finnish and French see themselves as one people. Europe also has a diversity of culture, it doesn't prevent them to be part of the European Union. Same for the Arab League. Or other similar political unions around the world. They still consider Ancient Greece as part of their common history. It's unity in diversity, not unity in fascism and uniformity. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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