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Of course there were 'Horner' pharaohs
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Swenet: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Akachi: My quote states that [b]modern people in Sudan [/b]today ("recent Nubians") are distinct from the Mesolithic Nubians.[/QUOTE]False. The full citation (which you deliberately manipulated) makes it clear that Holliday compares Irish’ dynastic era Nubians and Mesolithic Nubians, not recent, modern day Nubians and Mesolithic Nubians: [i]In contrast, Irish and Turner (1990) and Irish (2000, 2005) noted that late Pleistocene Nubians (and in particular the Jebel Sahaba skeletons) were as a group quite different from more recent Nubians for dental discrete traits, yet shared great phenetic affinity with recent West African populations. [b]For example, Irish and Turner (1990) found that the mean measure of divergence, or MMD, between Pleistocene Nubians and Christian period Nubians was 0.379[/b], whereas the MMD between Pleistocene Nubians and recent West Africans was only 0.04. Counter to Anderson’s (1968) argument, then, Irish and Turner (1990) [b]argued for some degree of genetic discontinuity between Pleistocene and Holocene Nubians, with the former being more similar to modern-day West Africans, whereas the latter were more similar to recent North Africans and Europeans. [/b][/i] --Holliday 2013 and [i]Irish (2000, 2005) found that late Pleistocene Nubians (and especially the Jebel Sahaba sample) are wholly dissimilar to Iberomaurusian populations from the Maghreb. He pointed out that despite the typological similarities in their cultural traditions (Iberomaurusian vs. Qadan), that dentally the two populations are easily distinguished. [b]In fact, late Pleistocene Nubians (Jebel Sahaba) were the extreme outlier in a comparison of Pleistocene and Holocene North African groups (Irish, 2000, 2005).[/b][/i] --Holliday 2013 and [i]As with the previous studies, the current findings suggest [b]that the morphology of Jebel Sahaba is distinct from more recent Egyptian and Nubian samples[/b], suggestive of a genetic discontinuity in the Nile Valley. One difference between the current study and these previous studies is that [b]both Irish (2000, 2005) and Raxter (2011) found key morphological differences between the Jebel Sahaba and Kerma samples—differences that led Irish (2005) to argue for a genetic discontinuity[/b] between the late Pleistocene Nubians (as represented by Jebel Sahaba), the ‘Kerma Classique’ period skeletons (ca. 1750–1500 BC), and later Nubian samples. Specifically, [b]he suspected that population replacement or genetic swamping occurred in Nubia sometime in the early Holocene[/b] (Irish, 2005).[/i] --Holliday 2013 [QUOTE]Originally posted by Akachi: You're not making any sense, and you are trying your damnedest to ignore the implications of the 2013 Holiday study which notes that those [b]"iron aged Senegalese"[/b] (hence "recent West Africans) are virtually identical to the "negroid" Mesolithic Nubians.[/QUOTE]This is another blatant lie and manipulation of Holliday. There is not a single mention of ‘Senegalese’ or ‘iron age’ in Holliday 2013. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Akachi: Well for one the author did not just limit the affinity between Mesolithic Nubians and modern West Africans to dental traits, [b]but stated that there was overall a virtually identical phenotype between the groups.[/b][/QUOTE]This is also a blatant lie. There is no such claim in Holliday 2013. Holliday cites cranio- metric articles which didn’t conclude an especially close link between West Africans and Jebel Sahabans: [i]A more important comparison was made between Jebel Sahaba and the remains from the nearby (and presumably contemporary) ‘Colorado’ Wadi Halfa remains. The sample was also compared with somewhat more recent (Iberomaurusian) skeletons from Northwest Africa (the Maghreb), including, for example, the well-known Afalou-Bou-Rhummel and Taforalt (Grotte des Pigeons) specimens (Balout, 1955a), as well as to historic period Egyptian and Sudanese Nubians. He also compared the sample with late Pleistocene skeletons from East and Southern Africa. [b]Anderson concluded that the Jebel Sahaba skeletons were, as a group, quite homogeneous and that morphologically they were most similar to their presumed contemporaries from across the river at Wadi Halfa. Yet he also noted that they shared certain features with the Cro- Magnons, particularly with regard to cranial superstructures.[/b] However, he found that features more prone to show environmental effects (whether phenotypically plastic or otherwise) separated the tropical Jebel Sahaba skeletons from their penecontemporaries at higher latitudes. [b]He could not find any evidence of morphological/genetic links between Jebel Sahaba and the late Pleistocene remains from East and Southern Africa[/b] (which were admittedly poorly preserved), but he did note a strong similarity between the sample and the Maghreb Mesolithic ‘Mechtoid’ material. [/i] --Holliday 2013 ^You need to stop lying, just like Amun Ra needs to stop lying. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Akachi: Are you dumb? That is because they [b](Mesolithic Nubians and West Africans) were the same people[/b][/QUOTE]Patently false. The Mesolithic Nubian population and later derivative Sudanese groups don’t have a special ancestral link to West Africans beyond the sharing of a general SSA dental pattern: [i] The trait expressions which are most frequently cited as typically biologically sub-Saharan have mainly been identified in studies of the remains of biologically West African groups and their American descendants. [b]It was therefore not surprising that an undoubtedly fully biologically sub-Saharan sample from another part of the African continent, i.e. the Wadi Howar, was characterised by different frequencies of certain trait expressions[/b][/i] --Becker 2011 [i]It has been repeatedly highlighted that the currently known Late Pleistocene Nubians were biologically sub-Saharan (see I.D.1.a.3.c., V.B.3.a. and above). [b]As could therefore be expected, the Jebel Sahaba/Tushka mean individual was assigned to the Southern Sudanese[/b] comparative sample (see IV.D.). [b]That the A-Group mean individual was classified as a member of the Somali comparative sample[/b] could be anticipated as well (see IV.D.).[/i] --Becker 2011 [QUOTE]Originally posted by Akachi: Can this be the reason why virtually every West African groups proclaims to have an origin in the East and they all point to the Nile Valley as their previous homeland? [b]Which West Africans do we need to to consult for this[/b] the Akan, Ewe, Yoruba, Ga-Adangbe, the Bamileke who? Or did you not know this...dumbass.[/QUOTE]You'd have to consult the bio-anthropological literature, because apparently it thinks you're full of sh!t! The African phenotyped populations that moved to West Africa in time frames that are relevant to the migration of M2 and Niger Congo, do not have a West Africa specific phenotype. Instead, they cluster with their source populations in the Sudan: [i]Still, it is noteworthy that the modern comparative specimens to whom the Malian Sahara mean individual was most similar were members of the Southern Sudan sample, [b]not the West African Mandinka sample.[/b][/i] --Becker 2011 ^There goes your fairytale that West African "negroid" equals and is a recent import from East African "negroid" populations. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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