Kabylia where tens of thousands of Germanic Vandal people - according to Procopius and other texts - settled is not a Berber tribe. Its a geographical place name. [/QB]
wikipedia:
The Kabyle people (in Kabyle: Iqvayliyen) are the largest homogeneous Algerian ethno-cultural and linguistical community and the largest nation in North Africa to be considered exclusively Berber. Their traditional homeland is Kabylia (or Kabylia) in the north of Algeria, one hundred miles east of Algiers. Tradionally, they have also had a strong presence in the Algérois (Algiers region). No human settlement is mentioned in any historical books documenting the peaceful period between Numidians (east northern Africa approx. modern Algeria + Tunisia) with Rome through the alliance and dating back to 500 BC, against the Phoenicians.When Jugurtha, rebelled against his former Roman allies, the inaccessible highlands were used as safe places to hide and train[dubious – discuss]. Permanent settlements gradually developed after his capture, as his followers acquired the hunting and subsistence farming skills and local knowledge that allowed them to become self-sustaining there. For some three centuries the relation between the highlanders and the Roman administration can be characterized as a low-intensity conflict, maintained by physical separation; Rome controlled the coastal areas and the valleys, while the highlands were never fully subjugated. In 428, under their new king Gaiseric, the Vandals, a Germanic people, crossed into North Africa from the Iberian peninsula, and quickly formed a new kingdom from Roman territories, taking Carthage in 439, and sacking Rome itself in 455. They were followers of Arianism and promoted this creed among their aristocracy, at a time when most of the Berber population followed the Christian church of Africa allied to Rome. Kabyle are among the fiercest activists in the cause of Berber identity, though a three-way split exists: there are those Kabyles who see themselves as part of a larger Berber nation (Berberists), those who view themselves as part the Algerian nation (known as "Algerianists", some of these also view Algeria as an essentially Berber nation) and those who view Kabyles as a nation separate from (but akin to) other Berber peoples (known as Kabylists).
____________________________________________
The people who have come to be known as Berbers are comprised of people whose ancestry is both African as well people who migrated into Africa from outside of Africa from before the time of Christ
To say these people are not Berber is to redefine the word for political reasons. To say the Kabyles are not Berbers is not a common point of view
melchior7 Member # 18960
posted
True. Some of the Vandals did join with the Berbers. But they certanly did not outnumber them or completely change their pheonotype or culture.
Troll Patrol Member # 18264
posted
The east German Vandals (will) show up in the autosomal of Berbers. And are just one of the multiple foreign groups as admixture to Berbers. This especially goes for Kabyles, considering where they have remained.
quote: C. Loring Brace et al. University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI, November 11, 2005
"When the Basques are run with the other samples used in Fig. 1, they link with Germany and more remotely with the Canary Islands. They are clearly European, although the length of their twig indicates that they have a distinction all their own.
It is clear, however, that they do not represent a survival of the kind of craniofacial form indicated by Cro-Magnon any more than do the Canary Islanders, nor does either sample tie in with the Berbers of North Africa as has previously been claimed (37, 44-45)..."
Originally by a poster from Europedia.
"In 406, the Alans, Vandals, Suebi and Burgundians cross the Rhine and settle in Gaul. The first Burgundian kingdom appears in 411 in eastern Gaul. The Alans, Vandals and Suebi move to Iberia. The Suebi set up a kingdom in Gallica, while the Vandals move to North Africa.
In 493, the Ostrogoths, invited by the Byzantines to recover Rome from the Visigoths, invade Italy and create the Ostrogothic kingdom, pushing the Visigoths to southern Gaul and Iberia."
By Family Tree DNA,
I2b: Nordic (Northwestern European) origin. In 409 AD, the Suebi (a Baltic people) and the Vandals (an Eastern Germanic people) established themselves on the Iberian Peninsula. Less than 100 years later the Visigoths (an Eastern Germanic people) conquered Iberia, after they had conquered Rome, and settled there in the year 507 AD. The Visigoths’ ancient homeland was Sweden, which they had left around Christ's time. These three Nordic peoples brought Haplogroup I and sub-haplogroups I1 and I2 into Iberia. 13% of modern day Spaniards share this origin.
Gomez - G2: Caucasus of Europe. This is a fairly rare haplogroup found mostly in men from the Mediterranean, the Caucasus, and the Middle East. The highest concentration of Haplogroup G men is found today in the Caucasus Mountains, in several small states to the south of Russia, and in Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan. The G2 branch of this lineage (containing the P15 mutation) is found most often in Europe and the Middle East. The Alan Sarmatians were military allies of the Vandals and the Suebi during the conquest of Iberia, it is likely this is the origin of haplogroup G2 in Spain. The Alan Sarmatians' ancient homeland was the Caucasus Mountains. About 8% of northern Spaniards share this origin
the lioness Member # 17353
posted
Troll Patrol I ask you this question:
Are the Kabyles Berbers?
dana, please don't jump in until Troll answers first, thanks
Djehuti Member # 6698
posted
^ That depends on what you mean by 'Berber'. If you mean in the linguistic sense then of course! However if you mean 'indigenous people of North Africa', that is something else entirely.
By the way, Kabyle vary in looks as well. When most folks think of Kabyle they automatically think 'white' Berbers, but then you have these:
You have a range of looks from white with blonde or red hair and blue eyes, to more "mulatto" or mixed-looking, to black types. You don't have to be a rocket scientists to know how the original Kabyle looked like.
the lioness Member # 17353
posted
^^^ Is your name Troll Patrol? stop trying to speak for other people
Troll Patrol Member # 18264
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Troll Patrol I ask you this question:
Are the Kabyles Berbers?
dana, please don't jump in until Troll answers first, thanks
I know several people that are Kabyles. And they do consider themselves Berber. And they do speak the language. Many will say they aren't mixed and have their looks because of the region. I have also heard others say that their ancestry was darker skinned. One thing is for sure they do not consider themselves white or European.
They do show a variety of phenotype, for instance I have seen Berber females blond hair but with "negroid" facial bone structure. Much like in Latin America. The prognathic rant, I have seen this in many of them.
But Dana is more knowledgeable on this history of Berbers. and I think what Dana has steated is that descendants of Vandals etc...are lesser Berber, in origin. As suppose the Berbers she describes historicly.
What I know is that they do have admixture, if I go by what genetic science says on their autosomals. And historically that would be accurate. But the thing is Kabyles aren't the only Berbers. And several Berber groups show different genetic frequencies.
xyyman Member # 13597
posted
This exactly the point Sergi, in the late 1800's noted.
Indigenous Africans with blonde hair and "negroid" features.. . .no European admixture needed.
Many will say they aren't mixed and have their looks because of the region. I have also heard others say that their ancestry was darker skinned. One thing is for sure they do not consider themselves white or European.
They do show a variety of phenotype, for instance I have seen Berber females blond hair but with "negroid" facial bone structure.
the lioness Member # 17353
posted
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: I have seen Berber females blond hair but with "negroid" facial bone structure.
If a Kabyle had staright blond hair and did not have "negroid facial bone structure" could they be a Berber?
Troll Patrol Member # 18264
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: I have seen Berber females blond hair but with "negroid" facial bone structure.
If a Kabyle had staright blond hair and did not have "negroid facial bone structure" could they be a Berber?
I don't know.
But what I do know is that invasions have taken place in particular regions of North Africa. The average Berber as I know them looks like this.
the lioness Member # 17353
posted
People around the world commonly use the term Berber to describe people with ancestry of various combinations of African, Greek, Phoenician, Sea People, Vandal Arab ancestry
A lot of this foreign ancestry goes back to periods before Islam and Arabs entering Africa
You could say that people with a lot of foreign ancestry are not Berbers. That would exclude a majority of what people are commonly referred to as Berbers today
Troll Patrol Member # 18264
posted
Some of the people in your post aren't Berber, but Tuareg.
And not all people in your photo collage are Berber of the same origin. Northwest Africa has been colonized by Spain and Portugal. Even Turks managed to invade that space. So obviously the composition is different depending on where on lives or ancestry has remained.
These people below are likely visitors to the region and have nothing to do with the original population. I have never seen such Moroccans. Even thou within one family you can have totally different phenotypes, as I have seen myself.
Kabylia where tens of thousands of Germanic Vandal people - according to Procopius and other texts - settled is not a Berber tribe. Its a geographical place name.
wikipedia:
The Kabyle people (in Kabyle: Iqvayliyen) are the largest homogeneous Algerian ethno-cultural and linguistical community and the largest nation in North Africa to be considered exclusively Berber. Their traditional homeland is Kabylia (or Kabylia) in the north of Algeria, one hundred miles east of Algiers. Tradionally, they have also had a strong presence in the Algérois (Algiers region). No human settlement is mentioned in any historical books documenting the peaceful period between Numidians (east northern Africa approx. modern Algeria + Tunisia) with Rome through the alliance and dating back to 500 BC, against the Phoenicians.When Jugurtha, rebelled against his former Roman allies, the inaccessible highlands were used as safe places to hide and train[dubious – discuss]. Permanent settlements gradually developed after his capture, as his followers acquired the hunting and subsistence farming skills and local knowledge that allowed them to become self-sustaining there. For some three centuries the relation between the highlanders and the Roman administration can be characterized as a low-intensity conflict, maintained by physical separation; Rome controlled the coastal areas and the valleys, while the highlands were never fully subjugated. In 428, under their new king Gaiseric, the Vandals, a Germanic people, crossed into North Africa from the Iberian peninsula, and quickly formed a new kingdom from Roman territories, taking Carthage in 439, and sacking Rome itself in 455. They were followers of Arianism and promoted this creed among their aristocracy, at a time when most of the Berber population followed the Christian church of Africa allied to Rome. Kabyle are among the fiercest activists in the cause of Berber identity, though a three-way split exists: there are those Kabyles who see themselves as part of a larger Berber nation (Berberists), those who view themselves as part the Algerian nation (known as "Algerianists", some of these also view Algeria as an essentially Berber nation) and those who view Kabyles as a nation separate from (but akin to) other Berber peoples (known as Kabylists).
____________________________________________
The people who have come to be known as Berbers are comprised of people whose ancestry is both African as well people who migrated into Africa from outside of Africa from before the time of Christ
To say these people are not Berber is to redefine the word for political reasons. To say the Kabyles are not Berbers is not a common point of view [/QB]
"The people who have come to be known as Berbers are comprised of people whose ancestry is both African as well people who migrated into Africa from outside of Africa from before the time of Christ."
My beliefs exactly.
And I don't care if "Kabyle are not Berbers" is not "a common point of view" since I never said anything of the sort. people can consider themselves whatever they'd like although that is not going to prevent history from emerging, and the fact that early Ketama and Bavares or "Berbers" occupying Kabylia are only described as looking like blacks, Abyssinians, etc.
Secondly like I said Kabyle was not the name of a Berber tribe. It is a geographical region which was and is now inhabited by the descendants of 10s of thousands of Vandals who settled there along with Romans and the Djerawa i.e.Wangarawa or Babares and Ketama/Ucutamani/Mucuteni - two distinct and black African tribes who were designated Berbers and Mauri, and in the first instance both.
BTW -there is also a strong Turkish or Turkmenish appearance of some Kabyles which is obviously not derived from the early Berbers.
The Wikipedia post however is right in that Kabylia is a linguistic community and has recently become a nationality or "nation", just as Berber today is largely just a linguistic community of several nationalities.
posted ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
[/QB]
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