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Originally posted by Tee85:
Do you have any GENETIC evidence of mixing?

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Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Doug M:

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Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
To be fair, KING magazine puts some dark-skinned women on their cover. But it does seem like many of them sell out after a while.

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King puts on what is popular. And Vida is popular among African American blacks. That has nothing to do with selling out, it has to do with catering to your customer base and SELLING magazines.

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Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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*sigh* If it isn't all this talk of 'black', it's all this talk of 'mixed'!!

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Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian:

Djehuti and Sundiata,

The people in Africa can come in various colors. We all accept the modern term "Black" and "African". What I am saying that this is a subtle debate were terminology is key and you must understand the true reason for all this concern.

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Isn't strange that the native Egyptiand don't want to be called Black? They remind me of Black Latin Americans. On the other hand some African Americans don't want to acknowledge race-mixing anywhere.

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I am African American and am familiar with skin variations even in individual families. I have met face to face with modern Egyptians and Ethiopians in NYC and see what these groups look like.

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AE was near paleskinned people in the West and North who they conquered and mixed with. Invaders usually sleep with native women. That's the history of the world. That process would naturally lead to mixing of appearance.

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The Amhara called themselves "Red" and the Oromo "Black". The Bambara were called "Black" and the Fulani "Red". The "Black" Bambara are fighting against the "Red" Tuareg as we write. This is all very real.

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The Chinese used to call themselve "Bai" = White and the Malaysians and other darker Asians "Hei" = "Black".

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The Bible itself, which you may or not believe, says that the Hebrews (implying Asiatics) were more numerous in Goshen than the native Egyptians. Yosef married an Egyptian woman and also his two sons did like wise. Mixing of native Egyptians and Asiatics was implied throughout the Bible which occured during the New Kingdom era.

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Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Yonis2:

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Originally posted by Tee85:
Do you have any GENETIC evidence of mixing?

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This question assumes that they were somehow pure from the get go, do you have any GENETIC evidence of this?

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Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Maahes:
As a guardian of my culture I chose to become involved in something that may have an impact on a generation and perhaps a whole region in dire need of peace.

So will you please try and keep this in mind?
That our objectives are wholesome and progressive?

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Posts: 32 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Maahes:

A few writers here want to understand why I chose to incorporate non-Africans into the storyline. I've repeatedly presented this map:

I've repeatedly presented this map
for all of you to study if you so choose. In this map you will see the Egyptian empire in all its New Kingdom glory.
I have also provided links to sites where you can learn about the Levantine influence on Egypt.

And discussed the similarities between the Hyksos or Sheppherd Kings and the younger Mittanians-
There can be no question that the chariot driving foreigners from the East had a massive impact on Egyptian civilization and a lasting one at that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos



I chose to incorporate the Mittanians for the same reason that I included the Libyans and the Kushites. The Neighbors of Egypt -with their own respective borders and territorial interests are as I have stated enumerous times here, each of these vassal kingdoms has its own respective representative within the governmental body, e.g. THE GREAT HOUSE a.k.a. Per Aa, a.k.a. " pharaoh".

Each of these respective parties has invested interest in the Per Aa and who will inherit the Scepter of the Two Lands, the Two Crowns and the Throne of the Egypt, the Land of the Gods?

This is what is at stake as Amenhotep III lies dying. The fact that the Mittanians by and large have olive skin and are a strange admixture between Indo-Aryans and Meditteranean is a plus in my book. It makes them all the more interesting.
Their presence in the story provides us with all the more dimension and texture it needs.

Someone amongst you asked for evidence of Mittanian influence in 18th dynasty Egypt.
Surely you can't be serious! This is a topic a serious scholar can investigate on their own.
I did. I also described the presence of the Mittanians for another reason. I wanted it to jolt those of you asleep at the wheel with a realization or two. If you have issue with a Mittanian influence in court, surely you will also be at odds with the influence of venerable Panehesy,and his never ending hordes of Kushite warriors?
In other words, Kush has influence on the 18th dynasty- Kushite queens are present in the Matriarchate and within the Kenbet Council.
Puntite queens are present in the Matriarchate and within the Kenbet Council.
No Mittanian Queens are present in the Matriarchate in our story- but a Mittanian queen is representing Mittani's interests in the Kenbet Council. What is more, in our story,thoroughly Egyptianized Mittanian and Minoan expatriats have positioned themselves as leaders within the clergy and are attempting to usurp the Matriarchate Council to become the sole Kingmakers and intermediaries between the king and the masses...

Lastly, when most writers go to their task of writing, they have a core audience, one that inspires them beyond all else.





I write to the littlest Maahes amongst us.
This work is dedicated to making their conscious whole. They don't always appreciate how much time I spend at the computer typing. This is alot of time I aught to be spending with my boys.
No one including myself, intentionally sets out to create works that make you feel more stupid for having sat through them. I think I can speak for most writers here, we write to elucidate and inform- even entertain. As a guardian of my culture I chose to become involved in something that may have an impact on a generation and perhaps a whole region in dire need of peace.

So will you please try and keep this in mind?
That our objectives are wholesome and progressive?

There is a tendency for some people to read too little into works of art and another tendency is to read too much into the same.

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Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
The foundations of Dynastic Egyptian culture was laid out by the in situ social designs of the predynastic era and remained fairly conservative throughout much of its existence. Cultures do influence one another to some degree or another through conquest, immigration and trade; so, to make a point to that end, barring elaboration that takes it beyond, is like making a mole hill out of nothing.

It would be nice to learn more about the specificities that characterize the *massiveness* of the impact of the "chariot driving foreigns" - that is, how one quantifies this.

As for the Mittani influence on the 18th Dynasty, it is not odd for the advocate to be asked to elaborate on this, but rather, it would be odd if the advocate had no answer to this call. Afer all, one would think that the appeal to Mittani influence in the 18th Dynasty was to bring to the fore something of considerable significance, such that it must have modified the core-culture that provided a base for the 18th Dynasty in ways unprecedented and with such great magnitude.

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I'll take this in three parts.

Firstly, in my opinion, the most influential factor that began at the end of the 12th Dynasty was ecological flux. The Canyon of Horns which once had permanent water in the form of a deep river dried up permanently. THe Western Desert underwent rapid dessication as well. But the grasslands of the Near East and Hindu Kush suffered badly as well. If we intuit that this ecological flux had to do with seismic disturbance/vulcanism in the Mediterranean which seems likely, we can
envision the rise of the plate beneath the Western Sahara/ drop of the water table as a consequence.
Whatever really happened is unknown but anyone with an imagination is struck with awe at the immensity of the natural cataclysm that destroyed Minoan civilization:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thera_eruption

www.egyptologyblog.co.uk/2006/08/index.html - 457k

The exact dating of the final event, and it must be noted that there were several eruptions before the "big one", is still open to debate. Regardless, this had an enormous impact on the entire globe much less the local region.
In the minds of many researchers, myself included,
ecological flux enabled a virtual cultural invasion by Minoans, Libyans, Levantine "Asiatics" including but not limited to the ruling elite i.e., Chariot driving Bronze weapon yielding foriegners in Lower Egypt.

In a period of time when crops were scarce or non-existant, the significance of herd animals including Sheep and Goats ( "Asiatic") and Cattle cannot be over emphasized. Without these herds all of Lower Egypt may have starved to death.


No one is absolutely certain what was really going on but by the time of the Hyksos's arrival, large populations of Near Easterners from the Levant and up to Anatolia;and Minoans/Libyans were displaced from their territories, arriving in Egypt- 'the Land of the Gods'.

Now what happened next? I don't know that anyone can speak with great authority on the issue but obviously many have become very interested in the Tempest Stela. The author of the stela is the very same hereditary chief that finally put an end to Hyksos domination over Lower Egypt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_Stele
HYKSOS PHARAOH e.g. illegitamate foreign ruler that demanded everyone know him as the Per Aa- a physical place and presiding governmental body, not a single person-




Secondly, It is my understanding that the Hyksos period of Egypt was largely responsible for the birth of the 18th Dynasty...
Please make use of the bibliography of the following link for more information.

http://touregypt.net/featurestories/hyksos.htm

The Hyksos were an important influence on Egyptian history, particularly at the beginning of the Second Intermediate Period. Most of what we know of the nature of the Hyksos depends upon written sources (of the Egyptians), such as the Rhind Papyrus. Also of considerable importance is the systematic excavation of their capital, Avaris (Tell el-Dab'a).

Aamu was the contemporary term used to distinguish the people of Avaris, the Hyksos capital in Egypt, from Egyptians. Egyptologists conventionally translate aamu as "asiatics" The Jewish historian, Josephus, in his Contra Apionem, claims that Manetho was the first to use the Greek term, Hyksos, incorrectly translated as "shepherd-kings". Contemporary Egyptians during the Hyksos invasion designated them as hikau khausut, which meant "rulers of foreign countries", a term that originally only referred to the ruling caste of the invaders. However, today the term Hyksos has come to refer to the whole of these people who ruled Egypt during the Second Intermediate Period of Egypt's ancient history, and had to be driven out of the land by the last ruler of the 17th Dynasty and the earliest ruler of Egypt's New Kingdom.

Josephus claims to quote directly from Manetho, who's original history is lost to us, when he describes the conquest and occupation of Egypt by the Hyksos:

"By main force they easily seized it without striking a blow; and having overpowered the rulers of the land, they hen burned our cities ruthlessly, razed to the ground the temples of gods...Finally, they appointed as king one of their number whose name was Salitis."

Some of this rings true, while other parts seem not to be. It appears that the Hyksos left much of Egypt alone. It is clear that Avaris (Tell el-Dab'a) was occupied by a people who exhibited specifically non-Egyptian cultural traits. We find this in the layout of the town itself, the houses, and particularly the burials, which were intermixed with the living community, unlike those of the Egyptians. While we know that the Hyksos established centers, as their influenced gradually moved towards Memphis along the eastern edge of the Delta, at Farasha, Tell el-Sahaba, Bubastis, Inshas and Tell el-Yahudiyas, very little of this particular culture has been found at other Egyptian sites. At the same time, the Hyksos living in Egypt have been described as "Peculiarly Egyptian". They were great builders and artisans. And little seems to have changed between the Egyptian style of governing, and that of the Hyksos. While the Hyksos imported some of their own gods, they also appear to have honored the Egyptian deities as well, such as Seth, who became assimilated with some Hyksos deities. Of course, we must also recall that Egypt already had somewhat of a history with the "Asiatics", including wars and considerable trade, so it would not be surprising to find some mix of cultures even among the Egyptians of the Delta.

The Hyksos were basically a Semitic people who were able to wrestle control of Egypt from the early Second Intermediate rulers of the 13th Dynasty, inaugurating the 15th Dynasty. Their names mostly come from the West Semitic languages, and earlier suggestions that some of these people were Hurrian or even Hittite have not been confirmed. However, it is not easy to determine their origins within that Asiatic region, and at Tell el-Dab'a, the culture of the people was not static, but rapidly developed new traits and discarded old ones. Yet the reason for, and method of the cultural mixing and rapid development of Asiatics at Tell el-Dab'a remains unclear.

One hypothesis is that the basic population of Egyptians allowed, from time to time, a new influx of settlers, first from the region of Lebanon and Syria, and subsequently from Palestine and Cyprus. The leaders of these people eventually married into the local Egyptian families, a theory that is somewhat supported by preliminary studies of human remains at Tell el-Dab'a. Indeed, parallels for the foreign traits of the Hyksos at Tell el-Dab'a have been found at southern Palestinian sites such as Tell el-Ajjul, at the Syrian site of Ebla and at Byblos in modern Labanon.

Hence, the Hyksos rule of Egypt was probably the climax of waves of Asiatic immigration and infiltration into the northeastern Delta of the Nile. This process was perhaps aided by the Egyptians themselves. For example, Amenemhat II records, in unmistakable language, a campaign by sea to the Lebanese coast that resulted in a list of booty comprising 1,554 Asiatics, and considering that Egypt's eastern border was fortified and probably patrolled by soldiers, it is difficult to understand how massive numbers of foreign people could have simply migrated into northern Egypt. These people migrated, or otherwise moved to the region from the 12th Dynasty onward, and by the 13th Dynasty, this migration became widespread.

The Hyksos did eventually utilize superior bronze weapons, chariots and composite bows to help them take control of Egypt, though in reality, the relative slowness of their advance southwards from the Delta seems to support the argument that the process was gradual and did not ultimately turn on the possession of overwhelming military superiority. Hence, by about 1720 BC, they had grown strong enough, at the expense of the Middle Kingdom kings, to gain control of Avaris in the northeastern Delta. This site eventually became the capital of the Hyksos kings, but within 50 years, they had also managed to take control of the important Egyptian city of Memphis.

Given this slow advance by the Hyksos rulers into southern Egypt, it seems reasonable to infer that the superior military technology of the Hyksos was but an adjunct to their exploitation of the political weakness of the late Middle Kingdom.

However, the Hyksos never really ruled Egypt completely. Their expansion southwards was eventually checked. In fact, at least early on, this may have been the result of a massive plague, for at Tell el-Dab'a we find mass graves with little attention to the burials. Though the ruler of Avaris claimed to be King of Upper and Lower Egypt, we know from a stelae dating to the 17th Dynasty king Kamose, that Hermopolis marked the Avaris' king's theoretical southern boundary, while Cusae, a little further south, was actually the specific boarder point. Yet Southern, or Upper Egypt was reduced to a vassaldom, probably as a result of the effectiveness, eventually, of the Hyksos military forces, at least until the reign of Kamose. Therefore, we do regard them as the legitimate rulers of the whole country during parts of the Second Intermediate Period, considered a chaotic time which the Hyksos at least partially helped to create in Egypt.

Eventually, the Hyksos tolerance of rival claimants to the land beginning in the 15th Dynasty would spell their expulsion by the end of the 17th Dynasty, beginning with the reign of Kamose. By now, the baleful experience of foreign rule had done much to shatter the traditional Egyptian mindset of superiority in both culture and the security of the Egyptian state in the face of external threats.

Yet, Egypt would eventually benefit considerably from their experience of foreign rule, and it has been suggested that the Hyksos rule of Egypt was far less damaging then later 18th Dynasty records would lead us to believe. It would make Egypt a stronger country, with a much more viable military. Because of Egypt's strength and ability to isolate herself from the outside world, cultural and technological growth was often stagnant. Until the Hyksos invasion, the history of Egypt and Asia were mostly isolated, while afterwards, they would be permanently entwined. The Hyksos brought more than weapons to Egypt. It was due to the Hyksos that the hump backed Zebu cattle made their appearance in Egypt. Also, we find new vegetable and fruit crops that were cultivated, along with improvements in pottery and linen arising from the introduction of improved potter's wheels and the vertical loom.

Perhaps one of the greatest contribution of the Hyksos was the preservation of famous Egyptian documents, both literary and scientific. During the reign of Apophis, the fifth king of the “Great Hyksos,” scribes were commissioned to recopy Egyptian texts so they would not be lost. One such text was the Edwin Smith Surgical Papyrus. This unique text, dating from about 3000 BC, gives a clear perspective of the human body as studied by the Egyptians, with details of specific clinical cases, examinations, and prognosis. The Westcar Papyrus preserved the only known version of an ancient Egyptian story that may have otherwise been lost. Other restored documents include the Rhind Mathematical Papyrus, the most important mathematical exposition ever found in Egypt.

But it was the diffusion of innovations with more obvious military applications, such as bronze-working, which went far to compensate for the technological backwardness of Middle Kingdom Egypt, and it was these advantages that eventually allowed the kingdom at Thebes to gain back control of the Two Lands.

See also:

* Manetho on the Hyksos

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speos_Artemidos

For the purposes of our film
trilogy, the influence of Semitic/Indo-Aryan patriarchs within the Governmental Body/ Per Aa
is wrapped up in the burgeoning religious elite cult of the House of Amen. This is not to say Amenism was a false philosophy, but rather, the corruption of self-interest within the clergy of the House of Amen was swiftly derailing centuries of Egyptian progress. Amenhotep III, once a great and innovative man, has fallen into the quagmire created by the kingmakers that chose him above anyone else to rule as soveriegn.

While the Hyksos were ghosts of the distant past to Amenhotep's generation, Assyrian, Mittanian and Hittite vassals could probably recall the so called Hyksos a bit clearer as they were very likely at least peripherally involved in founding various Near Eastern Dynasties. The Hyksos did not become extinct. They were reabsorbed by their homelands, some of which were much enriched by their sacking of Egypt.

Something of interest to any indigenous East African is the issue of matrilinear progression and hereditary chieftaness status of specific regions. When the Hyksos came, they did not bring their own women and like Indo-Aryan chariot drivers, the Hyksos practiced during war time at least- ethnic cleansing. They killed the hereditary chiefs and first born children and took the heiresses as their own wives in order that their sons would be born half-Hyksos.
Many authors are of the opinion that the Hyksos were a benevolent presence in the region but I rather doubt the Egyptians felt this way about their new lords. As is attested by the campaigns of Ahmose and his predecesors - there was alot of enmity growing for the foreigners and they were expulsed from Egyptian territories.

Something of interest is that the Hyksos themselves did very little of their own administration. They had kingdoms to control back in the Levant. Indentured servant castes with Semetic sounding names (and remember Ethiopia and Yemen are the cradle and nursery of the first Semitic languages) were the administrators for the Hyksos " Pharaohs". This is very likely the reason that the Egyptians put up with the Hyksos presence for as long as they did. The Indentured servants with names like Yuya and Yey, Aye and Aperel, these were the men responsible for the granaries and even the treasury, the cattle herds and the horses not to mention the chariotry.

The Hyksos were allied with the Kingdoms of Kush- and hence had indentured servants from Ethiopia as well as Palestine.
When the final eruption buried the world in a fifteen year virtual winter- the skies of the entire globe choked with ash and ice- all was reversed- the servants of the Hyksos, including Egyptian and Semite turned against their masters and pushed them east.

In other words, two of Egypt's oldest neighbors/ allies had representatives within the Per Aa of the Hyksos, they included Semite and Horn African members as is attested by their names.

These individuals and we might envision some interesting marriages, like that between Yuya and Tuja for example, that were the foundation of an inner-coup de etat against the Hyksos.

Regardless, after the Hyksos had been expulled many Semites or Asiatics with non-Egyptian names, remained behind and they joined the greater forces of the Ethiopian/Puntite/Upper Egyptian forces to subdue the Kush and expul the Hyksos.

I don't see the foreign influence of the Asiatics to be of any more import than that of the Horn Africans in Dynastic Egypt. The Hyksos to be seen in the third and final installment film- working title " The Civil Servant" begins at the beginning of the 18th Dynasty with Henry Simmons as Ahmose 1
who is at odds with Hyksos Pharaoh- and culminates with Horemheb played by Denzel Washington finally
ascending beyond his humble origins to become king- only to lose it in a coup detat by his own surrogate sons within the Egyptian army...


Thirdly, I forgot in my digression- the third point is that the position of women within the Per Aa was obviously effected during the reign of the Hyksos and during the 18th Dynasty, women rose to great prominence but hardly that which was promised to them during Ahmose's day.

By the time Nefertiti came to power late in the dynasty, she like her enigmatic husband Akhenaten, were bringing old traditions back to the fore.

Akhenaten restored the purest form of Amenism back to Egypt- by denouncing the House of Amen and placing the Aten back into the view of the illiterate masses- basically saying as a good naturalistic philosopher might, that all the proof of consciousness (the God) that one needs to experience to know divine truth, is to watch the sun ( or moon) move across the sky, transforming the landscape as it passes- not a god in itself but a disc- a disc that projects the light of the god- that all creatures, inanimate rocks, trees and human beings acknowledge in their every waking moment whether they know it or not- this is amenism- the philosophy of becoming- hardly a new concept -but Akhenaten and Nefertiti brought this back from the confusing self-seriving agendas of the kng makers that destroyed Akhenaten's father.

In this story, the 'foreign' yet thoroughly Egyptianized ( centuries at least)let me preface that with this quickly-

in this story, Aanen, Aperel, Aye, these are descendants of high-ranking administrators- of Min and other pivotal Sepat territories that enjoyed the marriage between West ( Africa) and East ( Asia) . Being children of the Kap- for generations their true inter-relatedness is not important so much as it serves to bolster Egypt's influence and power with its vassal states- Mittani- Libya- Sudan, Somalia etc- these children of the Kap are placed into hereditary rule within the Per Aa
( Governmental Body) they are placed there to quantify the influence and power of the figure head and chieftaness. Ok


In this story, the 'foreign' yet thoroughly Egyptianized high ranking clergy members are basically fomenting - colluding to finally free themselves of centuries of Egyptian domination.
In their minds they are doing the right thing.
Their ethnicity makes it easy to comprehend how different their view points are.

Posts: 152 | From: Boston MA USA | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Doug M:

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Actually Doug M,
Thank you for your deep insight into all things indigenous. My people are not from the Nile Valley so this is not about us. We are from the Western Desert. Many generations have lived in Upper Egypt and even the Delta but we are indigenous to our own lands. All the same, as an indigenous Egyptian I trust that my works are appreciated by all peoples of the Sahara and the globe.


Your advice is poignant and well intentioned I'm certain. But candidly, I find you to be a bit slow on the uptake and a bit quick to jump to hyperbole. I think you should take up horse riding. This may help you learn to pace yourself. If your horse takes up a leap and clears a brook and you are still dry humping the saddle like you were during that quick little trot, your balls will be very bruised indeed.

Something that has helped me from any number of torturous years of schooling in thoroughly oppressive Windsor (Eton) or some other ass backwards underbite of a priviledged colonialist ( read culturally imperialistic)school presided over by small men with ominscent egos- remember that they cannot take anything away from you. Even if a small minded person thinks they can claim your culture from you on grounds that you are brainwashed or racially inferior therefore mentally retarded- they can only make sounds with their little bitty mouths -they are just thoughts and words after all. No truth has ever been stolen- just hidden for a time when it would be better utilized.

I remember a trip to Malaysia a few years ago, we were in the rainforest near Taman Negara when the English delegates of a wildlife conservation group- I should mention the Englishmen Im speaking of were the small minded bigoted type-not the other English who are awesome- any way-
the small minded English bigots were taking tea and drinking scotch being asses naturally, when a troupe of monkeys made their presence known mightily. With teeth bared and attitudes unleashed, the true lords of the forest stole the English's dignity. They thought they had claimed that cafe in the rain forest. They were even carrying on like they were back in Scotland with the Duke of Athol. But really- the langurs were the true masters of the moment. Time belongs to he who knows his own nature.

Posts: 152 | From: Boston MA USA | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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I honestly have no idea why people still waste their time asking this guy questions that he never has answers to, in which he instead prefers to jot down 1,000 word rants, full of irrelevant analogies and anecdotes.

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My people are not from the Nile Valley.

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Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Sundiata:
I honestly have no idea why people still waste their time asking this guy questions that he never has answers to, in which he instead prefers to jot down 1,000 word rants, full of irrelevant analogies and anecdotes.

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My people are not from the Nile Valley.

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So why should we have ever been concerned with "your people" (exclusively) in a thread concerning ancient Nile valley Egyptians whom potentially and ultimately migrated from multiple sources to the south?

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I wonder Sundiata, why you bother to irritate yourself by even visiting this thread. If you actually read what was asked, a person with at least a primary education reading comprehension level would be appreciative of my reply.
But then you probably skipped primary school for
curr school for ant lionesses.


The point of one of my most recent posts regarding my core audience is my own children. Obviously,they are from and live in the Western Desert- when they are not living in Vermont. When someone asks where they are from they don't say Nile Valley. They say Valley of Somerkot. When they are in the Western Desert if someone were to ask where they are from some stupid tourist they would say "right here" this is where we come from. They would not say Vermont even if they do have a house there. They would not say Aswan even if alot of their cousins live there. A part of being a cultural ambassador is to not take credit for the things that are not your own. I can not take credit for the pyramids and neither can my ancestors. We are tribal people that live in the middle of the sand sea. We are not from the Nile Valley portion of Egypt- we have lived there- many of us over the centuries have made homes there and been very happy and productive but we were as foreign as any
Sudanese, Ethiopian or Syrian expatriat community.
We, that is the members of our tribal clan cannot take credit for Nile Valley history.
It existed before we came there and long after we left.
I can be objective about the history of Egypt and make room for people that are non-Egyptians that find Egypt so fascinating. I applaud them. Its a bit weird reading all these nasty missives from some of you. I can't remember ever having any other nationality be so transparently dismissive and rude. Americans are a unique bunch.


Really -you are too much.

I obviously have answers for many more questions than there should even have to be answers for. Im very patient.
You remind me of this annoying woman that lives down the road from my house in Vermont. She always takes offense even when no offense should be taken. I think they call that histrionic. Anyway she rides by my farm all the time English style. Do you have any idea how annoying that is? She just dry humps that saddle up and down and up and down. She doesn't 'approve' of my owning a piece of paradise and my camel spooks her fairy horse which fairly breaks its neck trying to escape from the vicinity. Anyway, you remind me of the sort of person that practiced English riding technique so often and to such delusion, you post when you aught to be sitting still and paying close attention to where your horse ( presuppositional bias) is going.

Posts: 152 | From: Boston MA USA | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Nefar:
^uhm...

...?

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Posts: 152 | From: Boston MA USA | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Maahes:
I wonder Sundiata, why you bother to irritate yourself by even visiting this thread.

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If you actually read what was asked, a person with at least a primary education reading comprehension level would be appreciative of my reply. But then you probably skipped primary school for curr school for ant lionesses.

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The point of one of my most recent posts regarding my core audience is my own children. Obviously,they are from and live in the Western Desert- when they are not living in Vermont. When someone asks where they are from they don't say Nile Valley. They say Valley of Somerkot.

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When they are in the Western Desert if someone were to ask where they are from some stupid tourist they would say "right here" this is where we come from. They would not say Vermont even if they do have a house there. They would not say Aswan even if alot of their cousins live there.

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A part of being a cultural ambassador is to not take credit for the things that are not your own. I can not take credit for the pyramids and neither can my ancestors.

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We are tribal people that live in the middle of the sand sea.

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We are not from the Nile Valley portion of Egypt- we have lived there- many of us over the centuries have made homes there and been very happy and productive but we were as foreign as any
Sudanese, Ethiopian or Syrian expatriat community.

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We, that is the members of our tribal clan cannot take credit for Nile Valley history.
It existed before we came there and long after we left.

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I can be objective about the history of Egypt and make room for people that are non-Egyptians that find Egypt so fascinating.

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I applaud them.

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Its a bit weird reading all these nasty missives from some of you. I can't remember ever having any other nationality be so transparently dismissive and rude. Americans are a unique bunch.

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Really -you are too much.

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At least I'm not "too little".

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I obviously have answers for many more questions than there should even have to be answers for. Im very patient.

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You remind me of this annoying woman that lives down the road from my house in Vermont.

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You don't remind me of anything.. Would you like to stay on topic though?

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She always takes offense even when no offense should be taken. I think they call that histrionic. Anyway she rides by my farm all the time English style. Do you have any idea how annoying that is? She just dry humps that saddle up and down and up and down. She doesn't 'approve' of my owning a piece of paradise and my camel spooks her fairy horse which fairly breaks its neck trying to escape from the vicinity.

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Another useless and fictitious anecdote?

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Anyway, you remind me of

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Geeze! How many things can one anonymous screen name remind you of?! At the end of the day though, I don't care.

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the sort of person that practiced English riding technique so often and to such delusion, you post when you aught to be sitting still and paying close attention to where your horse ( presuppositional bias) is going.

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Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Mittanians are not Hyksos but the similarities between both is striking and many Egyptologists believe that there are common foundations - that perhaps the Mittanians are descendant of Hyksos.

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Diplomatic marriages between Levantine kingdoms like Mittani and Syria with Egyptian Thot'mose kings are on record.

The influence of these "Asiatics" on 18th Dynasty Egypt was very large as the previous post outlines.

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Originally posted by Sundiata:
The standards for differentiating between "racial" or ethnic groups depends on the method used. In cephalometry and forensic science, there are some standards that have proven effective in practical usage. Because both dentofacial surgery and forensics require practical results, we can presume that ideology will play less of a role as compared to conventional anthropology. The latter has a long history of racial bias. The purpose of this study is to refute the argument that the Pharaohs did not conform to the "Negroid" phenotype, but not to support any biological basis of the concept of race.


Some standards that we will use in describing the x-ray diagrams (lateral view) of the royal mummies are now given:

WM Krogman (The Human Skeleton in Forensic Medicine)

Africoid: Rounded, projecting glabella; sagittal plateau; rounded forehead, prognathism; rounded occiput.

"Caucasoid": Depressed glabella; rounded or arched sagittal contour; steep forehead; orthognathism; variable occiput.

S Rhine ("Non-metric skull racing")

Africoid: Slight depression of nasion; vertical zygomatic arches; prognathism; receding, vertical chin; straight mandibular edge.

Caucasoid: Depression of nasion; retreating zygomatic arches; orthognathism; prominent, bilobate chin; wavy mandibular edge.


Persons of African descent are distinguished by steep mandibular plane; sharp, vertical chin; protrusion of the incisors; prognathism; greater lower facial height but with less mid-facial height; upper mouth is more projecting than lower mouth (higher ANB angle).


The Royal Mummies


Late XVII and XVIII Dynasties

Queen Ahmes-Nefertary

* Father: Seqenenre Tao II or Kamose, Mother: Queen Ahhotep I or Queen Ahhotep II
Strongly proclined incisors. Rounded forehead, sagittal flattening; rounded occiput. Somewhat forward zygomatic arches; pronounced alveolar prognathism. Steep mandible with squat ramus and receding chin.


Amenhotep I

* Father: Ahmose, Mother: Ahmes-Nefertary
Rounded glabella, sloping forehead, sagittal plateau, rounded occiput. Zygomatic arches project forward. Moderate protrusion of upper incisors and pronounced prognathism. Receding chin and steeply inclined mandible.


Queen Meryetamon

* Father: Ahmose, Mother: Ahmes-Nefertary
Queen of Amenhotep I. Rounded occiput and forehead, sagittal plateau. Glabella is weak, but there is sexual dimorphism in this feature. Zygomatic arch is slightly forward. Pronounced protrusion of incisors and high ANB causing overbite. Mandible is moderately inclined and ramus is squat. Strong prognathism.


Thutmose I

* Father: ?, Mother: Senisoneb
Globular skull with high vault; rounded forehead; sagittal plateau; rounded, bulging occiput; weakly manifested glabella; vertical zygomatic arches. Strongly proclined upper and lower incisors; sharply receding chin and angled mandible. Squat ramus and pronounced prognathism.


Thutmose II

Father: Thutmose I, Mother: Queen Mutnofret
Rounded glabella and forehead; high vault with sagittal plateau. Rounded occiput. Strongly proclined upper and lower incisors; receding, vertical chin; highly angular mandible. Vertical zygomatic arches and maxillary prognathism.


Tjuya

* Mother of Queen Tiye
Rounded, prominent occipital bun; sagittal plateau; rounded forehead. Vertical zygomatic arches; proclined upper and lower incisors; strongly receding chin; steep mandible angle. Maxillary prognathism.


"The Elder Lady"

* First identified as Queen Tiye
The occipital bun is reminiscent of Mesolithic Nubians (see below). Sagittal plateau, rounded forehead with moderately projecting glabella; globular cranium with high vault. Protrusion of incisors, receding chin and steep mandible. Very vertical zygomatic arches and pronounced maxillary prognathism.


In summation, the New Kingdom Pharaohs and Queens whose mummies have been recovered bear strong similarity to either contemporary Nubians, as with the XVII and XVIII dynasties, or with Mesolithic-Holocene Nubians, as with the XVIV and XX dynasties. The former dynasties seem to have a strong southern affinity, while the latter possessed evidence of mixing with modern Mediterranean types and also, possibly, with remnants of the old Tasian and Natufian populations. From the few sample available from the XXI Dynasty, there may have been a new infusion from the south at this period. - Source

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Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Maahes:
Sundiata,

[quote]There are two kinds of error: blind credulity and piecemeal criticism. Never believe a word without putting its truth to the test; discernment does not grow in laziness; and this faculty of discernment is indispensable to the Seeker. Sound skepticism is the necessary condition for good discernment; but piecemeal criticism is an error.

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You ride a show pony. You will be tossed from your show pony when that show pony rears itself up.

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The knowledge you pretend to have an interest in is oblivious to your ego.

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I am an African. I am an Egyptian. I am an author and I am the write of a film trilogy.

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You are an anonymous poster

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on a web forum that takes everything I've written and spin it into whatever suits your attitude of the moment.

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But Im certain Im not the only person that recognizes that you have issues.

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Making light of your pettiness is fun to me.

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Glad you're having a good time.

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But really you are as usual just getting in the way of discussing anything of significance.

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Anything that reflects factual information is significant to me.

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Originally posted by Nefar:
^uhm...

...?

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^Indeed. The picture spammer in question has some very unusual tendencies that he regresses to once under pressure. A tale-tell sign of an unusual individual.

Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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I'm sorry, but nobody cares

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you may not but I Do

Maahes who was that person in the picture?

Posts: 229 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Nefar:

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I'm sorry, but nobody cares

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you may not but I Do

Maahes who was that person in the picture?

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Your Afrocentric gear is stuck on stoopid Sundiata. Pull up darlin before you burn out the clutch.

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Posts: 229 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Maahes:
Sundiata, you keep dragging the dialogue back into the racial ethnicity of the Egyptians.

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This is not the topic of this thread.

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The Cultural influence of the Levant on Egypt is as significant as that of the Horn Africans.

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You are the idiot

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that keeps talking about this as if it is supposed to point to the Mittanian ancestry of the entire 18th Dynasty!

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The only hereditary chief of the 18th Dynasty that is with all likely hood partially Mittanian is Amenhotep III.

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His son Akhenaten has so little Mittanian blood it isnt worth discussing.

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The obsession with Asian blood in the Thutmoside kings is yours alone.

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Maybe you should scroll back a page or two..

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Im describing the distinct possibility that Asiatic vassals were present in 18th Dynasty Egypt and that these vassals held important roles within the Per Aa-especially in administration positions.

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These individuals have non-Egyptian names.

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In our story, we caste these individuals as different looking and from cultures respective of
Egypt including Mittani, Babylon, Syria and so on.

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Your Afrocentric gear is stuck on stoopid Sundiata.

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What's so afrocentric about calling BS when you see it?

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Pull up darlin before you burn out the clutch.

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Please don't call me "darling". Not even the most feminine of my associates refer to me in such terms.

Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Nefar:

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I'm sorry, but nobody cares

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you may not but I Do

Maahes who was that person in the picture?

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Then maybe you should private message him so that you and Maahes may have a drawn out discussion about his western desert children. I mispoke; my mistake. I (as in me), don't care.

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Originally posted by Nefar:

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Your Afrocentric gear is stuck on stoopid Sundiata. Pull up darlin before you burn out the clutch.

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I don't like how you use the word Afrocentric.
as if Afrocentric means "obsessed with race" or person who like to "blackwash" history.
which is does not.

and since egypt is apart of african history theres no sense in using the word like that.

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Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Maahes:

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Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
The foundations of Dynastic Egyptian culture was laid out by the in situ social designs of the predynastic era and remained fairly conservative throughout much of its existence. Cultures do influence one another to some degree or another through conquest, immigration and trade; so, to make a point to that end, barring elaboration that takes it beyond, is like making a mole hill out of nothing.

It would be nice to learn more about the specificities that characterize the *massiveness* of the impact of the "chariot driving foreigns" - that is, how one quantifies this.

As for the Mittani influence on the 18th Dynasty, it is not odd for the advocate to be asked to elaborate on this, but rather, it would be odd if the advocate had no answer to this call. Afer all, one would think that the appeal to Mittani influence in the 18th Dynasty was to bring to the fore something of considerable significance, such that it must have modified the core-culture that provided a base for the 18th Dynasty in ways unprecedented and with such great magnitude.

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I'll take this in three parts.

Firstly, in my opinion, the most influential factor that began at the end of the 12th Dynasty was ecological flux. The Canyon of Horns which once had permanent water in the form of a deep river dried up permanently. THe Western Desert underwent rapid dessication as well. But the grasslands of the Near East and Hindu Kush suffered badly as well. If we intuit that this ecological flux had to do with seismic disturbance/vulcanism in the Mediterranean which seems likely, we can
envision the rise of the plate beneath the Western Sahara/ drop of the water table as a consequence.
Whatever really happened is unknown but anyone with an imagination is struck with awe at the immensity of the natural cataclysm that destroyed Minoan civilization:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thera_eruption

www.egyptologyblog.co.uk/2006/08/index.html - 457k

The exact dating of the final event, and it must be noted that there were several eruptions before the "big one", is still open to debate. Regardless, this had an enormous impact on the entire globe much less the local region.
In the minds of many researchers, myself included,
ecological flux enabled a virtual cultural invasion by Minoans, Libyans, Levantine "Asiatics" including but not limited to the ruling elite i.e., Chariot driving Bronze weapon yielding foriegners in Lower Egypt.

In a period of time when crops were scarce or non-existant, the significance of herd animals including Sheep and Goats ( "Asiatic") and Cattle cannot be over emphasized. Without these herds all of Lower Egypt may have starved to death.


No one is absolutely certain what was really going on but by the time of the Hyksos's arrival, large populations of Near Easterners from the Levant and up to Anatolia;and Minoans/Libyans were displaced from their territories, arriving in Egypt- 'the Land of the Gods'.

Now what happened next? I don't know that anyone can speak with great authority on the issue but obviously many have become very interested in the Tempest Stela. The author of the stela is the very same hereditary chief that finally put an end to Hyksos domination over Lower Egypt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_Stele
HYKSOS PHARAOH e.g. illegitamate foreign ruler that demanded everyone know him as the Per Aa- a physical place and presiding governmental body, not a single person-




Secondly, It is my understanding that the Hyksos period of Egypt was largely responsible for the birth of the 18th Dynasty...
Please make use of the bibliography of the following link for more information.

http://touregypt.net/featurestories/hyksos.htm

The Hyksos were an important influence on Egyptian history, particularly at the beginning of the Second Intermediate Period. Most of what we know of the nature of the Hyksos depends upon written sources (of the Egyptians), such as the Rhind Papyrus. Also of considerable importance is the systematic excavation of their capital, Avaris (Tell el-Dab'a).

Aamu was the contemporary term used to distinguish the people of Avaris, the Hyksos capital in Egypt, from Egyptians. Egyptologists conventionally translate aamu as "asiatics" The Jewish historian, Josephus, in his Contra Apionem, claims that Manetho was the first to use the Greek term, Hyksos, incorrectly translated as "shepherd-kings". Contemporary Egyptians during the Hyksos invasion designated them as hikau khausut, which meant "rulers of foreign countries", a term that originally only referred to the ruling caste of the invaders. However, today the term Hyksos has come to refer to the whole of these people who ruled Egypt during the Second Intermediate Period of Egypt's ancient history, and had to be driven out of the land by the last ruler of the 17th Dynasty and the earliest ruler of Egypt's New Kingdom.

Josephus claims to quote directly from Manetho, who's original history is lost to us, when he describes the conquest and occupation of Egypt by the Hyksos:

"By main force they easily seized it without striking a blow; and having overpowered the rulers of the land, they hen burned our cities ruthlessly, razed to the ground the temples of gods...Finally, they appointed as king one of their number whose name was Salitis."

Some of this rings true, while other parts seem not to be. It appears that the Hyksos left much of Egypt alone. It is clear that Avaris (Tell el-Dab'a) was occupied by a people who exhibited specifically non-Egyptian cultural traits. We find this in the layout of the town itself, the houses, and particularly the burials, which were intermixed with the living community, unlike those of the Egyptians. While we know that the Hyksos established centers, as their influenced gradually moved towards Memphis along the eastern edge of the Delta, at Farasha, Tell el-Sahaba, Bubastis, Inshas and Tell el-Yahudiyas, very little of this particular culture has been found at other Egyptian sites. At the same time, the Hyksos living in Egypt have been described as "Peculiarly Egyptian". They were great builders and artisans. And little seems to have changed between the Egyptian style of governing, and that of the Hyksos. While the Hyksos imported some of their own gods, they also appear to have honored the Egyptian deities as well, such as Seth, who became assimilated with some Hyksos deities. Of course, we must also recall that Egypt already had somewhat of a history with the "Asiatics", including wars and considerable trade, so it would not be surprising to find some mix of cultures even among the Egyptians of the Delta.

The Hyksos were basically a Semitic people who were able to wrestle control of Egypt from the early Second Intermediate rulers of the 13th Dynasty, inaugurating the 15th Dynasty. Their names mostly come from the West Semitic languages, and earlier suggestions that some of these people were Hurrian or even Hittite have not been confirmed. However, it is not easy to determine their origins within that Asiatic region, and at Tell el-Dab'a, the culture of the people was not static, but rapidly developed new traits and discarded old ones. Yet the reason for, and method of the cultural mixing and rapid development of Asiatics at Tell el-Dab'a remains unclear.

One hypothesis is that the basic population of Egyptians allowed, from time to time, a new influx of settlers, first from the region of Lebanon and Syria, and subsequently from Palestine and Cyprus. The leaders of these people eventually married into the local Egyptian families, a theory that is somewhat supported by preliminary studies of human remains at Tell el-Dab'a. Indeed, parallels for the foreign traits of the Hyksos at Tell el-Dab'a have been found at southern Palestinian sites such as Tell el-Ajjul, at the Syrian site of Ebla and at Byblos in modern Labanon.

Hence, the Hyksos rule of Egypt was probably the climax of waves of Asiatic immigration and infiltration into the northeastern Delta of the Nile. This process was perhaps aided by the Egyptians themselves. For example, Amenemhat II records, in unmistakable language, a campaign by sea to the Lebanese coast that resulted in a list of booty comprising 1,554 Asiatics, and considering that Egypt's eastern border was fortified and probably patrolled by soldiers, it is difficult to understand how massive numbers of foreign people could have simply migrated into northern Egypt. These people migrated, or otherwise moved to the region from the 12th Dynasty onward, and by the 13th Dynasty, this migration became widespread.

The Hyksos did eventually utilize superior bronze weapons, chariots and composite bows to help them take control of Egypt, though in reality, the relative slowness of their advance southwards from the Delta seems to support the argument that the process was gradual and did not ultimately turn on the possession of overwhelming military superiority. Hence, by about 1720 BC, they had grown strong enough, at the expense of the Middle Kingdom kings, to gain control of Avaris in the northeastern Delta. This site eventually became the capital of the Hyksos kings, but within 50 years, they had also managed to take control of the important Egyptian city of Memphis.

Given this slow advance by the Hyksos rulers into southern Egypt, it seems reasonable to infer that the superior military technology of the Hyksos was but an adjunct to their exploitation of the political weakness of the late Middle Kingdom.

However, the Hyksos never really ruled Egypt completely. Their expansion southwards was eventually checked. In fact, at least early on, this may have been the result of a massive plague, for at Tell el-Dab'a we find mass graves with little attention to the burials. Though the ruler of Avaris claimed to be King of Upper and Lower Egypt, we know from a stelae dating to the 17th Dynasty king Kamose, that Hermopolis marked the Avaris' king's theoretical southern boundary, while Cusae, a little further south, was actually the specific boarder point. Yet Southern, or Upper Egypt was reduced to a vassaldom, probably as a result of the effectiveness, eventually, of the Hyksos military forces, at least until the reign of Kamose. Therefore, we do regard them as the legitimate rulers of the whole country during parts of the Second Intermediate Period, considered a chaotic time which the Hyksos at least partially helped to create in Egypt.

Eventually, the Hyksos tolerance of rival claimants to the land beginning in the 15th Dynasty would spell their expulsion by the end of the 17th Dynasty, beginning with the reign of Kamose. By now, the baleful experience of foreign rule had done much to shatter the traditional Egyptian mindset of superiority in both culture and the security of the Egyptian state in the face of external threats.

Yet, Egypt would eventually benefit considerably from their experience of foreign rule, and it has been suggested that the Hyksos rule of Egypt was far less damaging then later 18th Dynasty records would lead us to believe. It would make Egypt a stronger country, with a much more viable military. Because of Egypt's strength and ability to isolate herself from the outside world, cultural and technological growth was often stagnant. Until the Hyksos invasion, the history of Egypt and Asia were mostly isolated, while afterwards, they would be permanently entwined. The Hyksos brought more than weapons to Egypt. It was due to the Hyksos that the hump backed Zebu cattle made their appearance in Egypt. Also, we find new vegetable and fruit crops that were cultivated, along with improvements in pottery and linen arising from the introduction of improved potter's wheels and the vertical loom.

Perhaps one of the greatest contribution of the Hyksos was the preservation of famous Egyptian documents, both literary and scientific. During the reign of Apophis, the fifth king of the “Great Hyksos,” scribes were commissioned to recopy Egyptian texts so they would not be lost. One such text was the Edwin Smith Surgical Papyrus. This unique text, dating from about 3000 BC, gives a clear perspective of the human body as studied by the Egyptians, with details of specific clinical cases, examinations, and prognosis. The Westcar Papyrus preserved the only known version of an ancient Egyptian story that may have otherwise been lost. Other restored documents include the Rhind Mathematical Papyrus, the most important mathematical exposition ever found in Egypt.

But it was the diffusion of innovations with more obvious military applications, such as bronze-working, which went far to compensate for the technological backwardness of Middle Kingdom Egypt, and it was these advantages that eventually allowed the kingdom at Thebes to gain back control of the Two Lands.

See also:

* Manetho on the Hyksos

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speos_Artemidos

For the purposes of our film
trilogy, the influence of Semitic/Indo-Aryan patriarchs within the Governmental Body/ Per Aa
is wrapped up in the burgeoning religious elite cult of the House of Amen. This is not to say Amenism was a false philosophy, but rather, the corruption of self-interest within the clergy of the House of Amen was swiftly derailing centuries of Egyptian progress. Amenhotep III, once a great and innovative man, has fallen into the quagmire created by the kingmakers that chose him above anyone else to rule as soveriegn.

While the Hyksos were ghosts of the distant past to Amenhotep's generation, Assyrian, Mittanian and Hittite vassals could probably recall the so called Hyksos a bit clearer as they were very likely at least peripherally involved in founding various Near Eastern Dynasties. The Hyksos did not become extinct. They were reabsorbed by their homelands, some of which were much enriched by their sacking of Egypt.

Something of interest to any indigenous East African is the issue of matrilinear progression and hereditary chieftaness status of specific regions. When the Hyksos came, they did not bring their own women and like Indo-Aryan chariot drivers, the Hyksos practiced during war time at least- ethnic cleansing. They killed the hereditary chiefs and first born children and took the heiresses as their own wives in order that their sons would be born half-Hyksos.
Many authors are of the opinion that the Hyksos were a benevolent presence in the region but I rather doubt the Egyptians felt this way about their new lords. As is attested by the campaigns of Ahmose and his predecesors - there was alot of enmity growing for the foreigners and they were expulsed from Egyptian territories.

Something of interest is that the Hyksos themselves did very little of their own administration. They had kingdoms to control back in the Levant. Indentured servant castes with Semetic sounding names (and remember Ethiopia and Yemen are the cradle and nursery of the first Semitic languages) were the administrators for the Hyksos " Pharaohs". This is very likely the reason that the Egyptians put up with the Hyksos presence for as long as they did. The Indentured servants with names like Yuya and Yey, Aye and Aperel, these were the men responsible for the granaries and even the treasury, the cattle herds and the horses not to mention the chariotry.

The Hyksos were allied with the Kingdoms of Kush- and hence had indentured servants from Ethiopia as well as Palestine.
When the final eruption buried the world in a fifteen year virtual winter- the skies of the entire globe choked with ash and ice- all was reversed- the servants of the Hyksos, including Egyptian and Semite turned against their masters and pushed them east.

In other words, two of Egypt's oldest neighbors/ allies had representatives within the Per Aa of the Hyksos, they included Semite and Horn African members as is attested by their names.

These individuals and we might envision some interesting marriages, like that between Yuya and Tuja for example, that were the foundation of an inner-coup de etat against the Hyksos.

Regardless, after the Hyksos had been expulled many Semites or Asiatics with non-Egyptian names, remained behind and they joined the greater forces of the Ethiopian/Puntite/Upper Egyptian forces to subdue the Kush and expul the Hyksos.

I don't see the foreign influence of the Asiatics to be of any more import than that of the Horn Africans in Dynastic Egypt. The Hyksos to be seen in the third and final installment film- working title " The Civil Servant" begins at the beginning of the 18th Dynasty with Henry Simmons as Ahmose 1
who is at odds with Hyksos Pharaoh- and culminates with Horemheb played by Denzel Washington finally
ascending beyond his humble origins to become king- only to lose it in a coup detat by his own surrogate sons within the Egyptian army...


Thirdly, I forgot in my digression- the third point is that the position of women within the Per Aa was obviously effected during the reign of the Hyksos and during the 18th Dynasty, women rose to great prominence but hardly that which was promised to them during Ahmose's day.

By the time Nefertiti came to power late in the dynasty, she like her enigmatic husband Akhenaten, were bringing old traditions back to the fore.

Akhenaten restored the purest form of Amenism back to Egypt- by denouncing the House of Amen and placing the Aten back into the view of the illiterate masses- basically saying as a good naturalistic philosopher might, that all the proof of consciousness (the God) that one needs to experience to know divine truth, is to watch the sun ( or moon) move across the sky, transforming the landscape as it passes- not a god in itself but a disc- a disc that projects the light of the god- that all creatures, inanimate rocks, trees and human beings acknowledge in their every waking moment whether they know it or not- this is amenism- the philosophy of becoming- hardly a new concept -but Akhenaten and Nefertiti brought this back from the confusing self-seriving agendas of the kng makers that destroyed Akhenaten's father.

In this story, the 'foreign' yet thoroughly Egyptianized ( centuries at least)let me preface that with this quickly-

in this story, Aanen, Aperel, Aye, these are descendants of high-ranking administrators- of Min and other pivotal Sepat territories that enjoyed the marriage between West ( Africa) and East ( Asia) . Being children of the Kap- for generations their true inter-relatedness is not important so much as it serves to bolster Egypt's influence and power with its vassal states- Mittani- Libya- Sudan, Somalia etc- these children of the Kap are placed into hereditary rule within the Per Aa
( Governmental Body) they are placed there to quantify the influence and power of the figure head and chieftaness. Ok


In this story, the 'foreign' yet thoroughly Egyptianized high ranking clergy members are basically fomenting - colluding to finally free themselves of centuries of Egyptian domination.
In their minds they are doing the right thing.
Their ethnicity makes it easy to comprehend how different their view points are.

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Posts: 152 | From: Boston MA USA | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Maahes:
Afrocentrics are just as off base as Eurocentrics.

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Keita’s summary position is that ‘It is not a question of “African” “influence”; ancient Egypt was organically African. Studying early Egypt in its African context is not “Afrocentric,” but simply correct’

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Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

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Originally posted by Maahes:
The question is did Mittanians have an impact on 18th Dynasty Egypt. I altered the parameters to answer that question in order to bring some light to the 18th Dynasty.

I provided links and text to substantiate my leanings on the issue.

Basically what we had in Egypt was a complete ecological upheaval. At this very same time in history, the Indus Valley civilization collapsed and Indo-Aryans were conquering lands throughout the Levant and eventually even Egypt.

Mittanians are not Hyksos but the similarities between both is striking and many Egyptologists believe that there are common foundations - that perhaps the Mittanians are descendant of Hyksos.

Either way, the ecological issues best characterized by the Thera eruption(s) provides us with a major cataclysm which has been substantiated as having a major impact on the entire globe including Egypt and its neighboring countries.

The peoples effected by the ecological collapse had large populations in the Delta region and there were likely "hyksos" hereditary nobles already present in the royal kaps and administration as was the rule in ancient Egypt.

When all hell finally broke loose, the foreign element made its move and took over Lower Egypt.

They were eventually ousted from Egypt by the founders of the Eighteenth dynasty.
It is important to note that individuals with the same names as some of the Hyksos rulers remained on through the 18th Dynasty.

Diplomatic marriages between Levantine kingdoms like Mittani and Syria with Egyptian Thot'mose kings are on record.

The influence of these "Asiatics" on 18th Dynasty Egypt was very large as the previous post outlines.

Mittanians were very present in 18th Dynasty and one of the most convincing bits of evidence is Malqata. The palace was adorned in Mittanian and Minoan art. Art Historians have covered this exhaustively:


Keftiu in Context: Theban Tomb-paintings as a historical Source

Author: Panagiotopoulos, D.1

Source: Oxford Journal of Archaeology, Volume 20, Number 3, August 2001 , pp. 263-283(21)

Publisher: Blackwell Publishing

Abstract:
It is generally asserted that the representations of Aegeans in Theban private tombs cannot be regarded as a reliable historical source, since the gift-bearers of this independent region were depicted by Egyptian artists as tributaries. The present paper is an attempt to test the validity of this orthodoxy from the Egyptological perspective. The new explanatory approach is based on a contextual analysis which embraces the entire body of foreigners' processions in the Theban tomb-paintings. It is suggested that these scenes provide, within certain iconographical conventions, an accurate record of historical reality, thus offering a valuable insight into the mechanisms of pharaonic power. The question of the political vs. economic nature of the depicted activity, the diplomatic gift-giving, is taken up in an appendix at the end of the paper.


But really, perhaps you should do your own homework. Its exhausting trying to get you up to speed. You should know something about the topic you are so reved up about.

http://www.touregypt.net/hdyn18c.htm

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Posts: 152 | From: Boston MA USA | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Maahes:
Im not getting sucked into your ant lion trap Sundiata. You have absolutely nothing to add to this dialogue. For those of you interested please read what I've taken the time to focus on.

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Fine by me. Just stop making ridiculously absurd claims that you haven't the intellectual integrity to support, and you won't be badgered (by me at least). It is that simple. Thank you for your time nonetheless.

Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Maahes:
Afrocentrics are just as off base as Eurocentrics.

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You can see for yourself, the knee jerk reaction any number of posters here have for the mere mention of non-Africans in the court of Amenhotep III.

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The entire thread become a whining contest about the conspiracy to white wash history by having Mittanians portrayed as Non-Africans.
I doubt most of these centrics were ever remotely aware of Mittani before the topic came up.

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I could have skated over anything remotely historical for the sake of making money and expediency but chose to take the path paved by serious academics.

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and that is good . but like I said before theres always that possibility that something you say could be inaccurate. and some of the people here,despite how rude some are being, are just trying to help or understand what you are saying.


here is wikipedias definetion of afrocentrim:

Afrocentricity, or Afrocentrism, is a cultural movement emphasizing a distinctive identity and contributions of African cultures to world history. Afrocentrists commonly contend that Eurocentrism led to the neglect or denial of the contributions of African people and focused instead on a generally European-centered model of world civilization and history. Therefore, they view Afrocentrism as a paradigmatic shift from a European-centered history. More broadly, Afrocentrism is concerned with distinguishing African achievements apart from the influence of European peoples.[1] Some Afrocentric ideas have been assessed as pseudohistorical by Western mainstream scholars, especially claims regarding Ancient Egypt as contributing directly to the development of Greek and Western culture.[2] Contemporary Afrocentrists may view the movement as multicultural rather than ethnocentric.

Posts: 229 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Most of what we know of the nature of the Hyksos depends upon written sources (of the Egyptians),

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^ them right?
I asked because I remember an article describing them differently. and said that they were from southern Europe which I found hard to believe.

Posts: 229 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Sundiata,
You are really not as annoying as you would like to believe you are. I am thrilled to be in the position I am in at this moment in time. This is the first time in modern history that a native Egyptian, has written a major motion picture, much less one focused on Egyptian history and culture.

My work has been lauded by very serious critics the world over and this is what it took to get it to the place it is today.

I find your remarks peevish and petty. Please move your attitude to another thread as you have done nothing but demand attention to yourself, as if to let everyone know how bright you are.

Unfortunately, you are coming off like a class-action, willfully ignorant idiot.

If you choose to continue doing whatever it is that you are doing, know that you are wasting everyone's time including your own.

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Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sundiata:
[QB]

This is not your thread, your forum, your website, and ancient Egypt is not your culture. No matter how much you'd like to assure us...you are not an ancient Egyptian nor are there many pure descendants, and the area spanning the Arab republic of Egypt has little by way of cultural traits that can be traced back directly to dynastic times.

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"you are not an ancient Egyptian" so
does it somehow make me less egyptian because I am "modern"egyptian? you are being very offensive..

Posts: 229 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Nefar:

quote:

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Originally posted by Sundiata:


This is not your thread, your forum, your website, and ancient Egypt is not your culture. No matter how much you'd like to assure us...you are not an ancient Egyptian nor are there many pure descendants, and the area spanning the Arab republic of Egypt has little by way of cultural traits that can be traced back directly to dynastic times.

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"you are not an ancient Egyptian" so
does it somehow make me less egyptian because I am "modern"egyptian? you are being very offensive..

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Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Maahes:
Nefar, In my opinion, the Afrocentric attitude that defines this 'debate' is one that speaks for Egyptians.

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Eurocentrics did this for too many unfortunate decades whilst the Saite provided slave labour for their ambitions. Now we have willfully ignorant, obviously biased idiots speaking for us under the guise of this Afrocentric cover that is supposed to somehow bring us Arabized Egyptians into the Black African diaspora.

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Our arms are wide enough to embrace all.

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Msr is the Mother of the World,being that our mothers the mothers of Egypt are the mothers of the world aught'nt we be allowed to define ourselves?

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As an African

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who fully embraces an African continent as the mother land- why is my voice somehow not African- the authentic voice of an Egyptian is not Black enough to these detractors.

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This is what every non-subtle posting by a number of posters here has convinced me of.


Where my grand uncle Ziko Goneim was marginalized by the centrics of European extraction, told that our ancestors must be of the 'White Race'- and had his work marginalized for daring to say otherwise-
We can appreciate that today, some of the most vociferous voices are not White European males defining our history for us but rather Black Americans, using the same dogmatic, sometimes mean spirited or emotionalized logic - again I find ethnocentrics of any species annoying and dehumanizing.

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The fact that some are descendants Africa doesn't change a damned thing. Over opinionated, mean spirited reductionists have no place in the world to call their own.

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Thus they are very often taking the form of the cultural imperialists of European descent during the Victorian era.


This is Eurocentricism in Black Face.

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What you're spouting is Arab nationalistim in "red face"..

Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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RED WHITE AND BLUE:

Deep down, some African Americans, don't want to see "brown" Egyptians, they really really really want "black" Egyptians.

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Most don't lean away from "brown".

If anything, light and dark get bashed.

Moreover, what 'some African Americans' think has nothing to do with the facts.

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Red White & Blue Christian:

So, why are these African Americans upset over the term Red

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Doug:

Actually none of this has anything to do with AAs other than the fact that they have the power to bring attention to the issue. AAs do not consider ancient Egypt as African American history, they consider it as AFRICAN history. The diversity of the Nile Valley in ancient times is not a simple juxtaposition of African and NON African mixture. It was primarily African, with many different cultures, customs and identities that eventually merged to become dynastic Egypt. That culture and that identity is what is in question. The fact that AAs want to see ancient Egypt in its ancient African context does not mean that they feel Ancient Egypt was closer to THEM than anyone else. That is ridiculous.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ This is ridiculous! We know indigenous Africans (who we call 'black') come in various shades and complexions! However, regardless of whether they had a reddish-brown hue or not the Egyptians still called themselves black by the very name Kememou or Kematawy!! Black was a sacred color whom they identified with regardless of actual complexion.

Also, not all Egyptians were depicted as reddish-brown as can be seen in The Book of Gates



And where is the evidence to suggest that ancient Egyptians by and large were 'mixed' or that theirs was a 'mixed' society?? You seem to be under the false notion that color variations such as reddish-brown are indications of admixture as if pure Africans only come in Sudanese black complexions!!

Hum Biol. 2000 Oct;72(5):773-80. Related Articles, Links
Human skin color diversity is highest in sub-Saharan African populations.
Relethford JH.
Department of Anthropology, State University of New York College at Oneonta, 13820, USA.
Previous studies of genetic and craniometric traits have found higher levels of within-population diversity in sub-Saharan Africa compared to other geographic regions. This study examines regional differences in within-population diversity of human skin color. Published data on skin reflectance were collected for 98 male samples from eight geographic regions: sub-Saharan Africa, North Africa, Europe, West Asia, Southwest Asia, South Asia, Australasia, and the New World. Regional differences in local within-population diversity were examined using two measures of variability: the sample variance and the sample coefficient of variation. For both measures, the average level of within-population diversity is higher in sub-Saharan Africa than in other geographic regions. This difference persists even after adjusting for a correlation between within-population diversity and distance from the equator. Though affected by natural selection, skin color variation shows the same pattern of higher African diversity as found with other traits.

The aboriginal Khoisan peoples of Southern Africa are yellowish-brown in complexion, does this mean they are mixed??

Also, Tut "high yellow"?! You must be confusing his golden mask for his actual skin color.

This are actual painted depictions of Tut showing his true complexion









I also question Maahes's identification of Tiye as being of "Nilotic" descent when we have no evidence of such. Tiye's family is from Akhmim Upper Egypt, so I would only assume this 'Nilotic' identification comes from nothing else but her very dark appearance. This is also contradictory to the claims that she is of part Mitanni descent.

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Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

Some things I wanted to address...

quote:

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Originally posted by Nefar:

quote:

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Your Afrocentric gear is stuck on stoopid Sundiata. Pull up darlin before you burn out the clutch.

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I don't like how you use the word Afrocentric.
as if Afrocentric means "obsessed with race" or person who like to "blackwash" history.
which is does not.

and since egypt is apart of african history theres no sense in using the word like that.

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Excellent point out.

You are a very reasonable person.

quote:

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Originally posted by Sundiata:

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Your Afrocentric gear is stuck on stoopid Sundiata.

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What's so afrocentric about calling BS when you see it?

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Pull up darlin before you burn out the clutch.

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Please don't call me "darling". Not even the most feminine of my associates refer to me in such terms.

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Originally posted by Willing Thinker {What Box}:

I didn't intend to be a critic, I was just making an observation.

I never said you were a proponent of the true negro myth, were 'racially' biased, or being a proponent of the myth was even equivolent to being biased.

Infact, what I meant to say, was that I hoped you were not a proponent of the myth.

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Willing sez here:

I never said you [i]were a proponent of the true negro myth, were 'racially' biased, or being a proponent of the myth was even equivolent to being biased.

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What I should have done, is be 'blunt wit it':

quote:

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I never said you were a proponent of the true negro myth, nor have I said nor did I mean to say you were 'racially' biased.

However, one does not need to be anti-black racist to believe in such a Eurocentric ideology, at least not consciously. One of our very own Afrocentric extremist self-proclaimed Afrocentrist espouses these same beliefs that I implied you might.

I hope you are not, infact.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Maahes:

your little exposition on whites and blacks in this epic film?

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I think you mean my 'little' exposition on Maahes potential beliefs about skin color and its correlation with certaint other physical features, beliefs that Maahes has never denied by the way.

quote:

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Whatever you meant to say was lost and what you did write was read as ammunition by these racialist obsessed baboons I was referring to.

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Ammunition, interesting word, that is.

As in "ammunition" for an argument.

This is about sides, as in, the side of a factual argument verses the an emotional one.

So if you are only mad because I pointed out something that agrees with the 'baboons', that's just plain silly.

You are making this movie for a social purpose, with politics in mind.

That is fine.

However your response and slow retreat and derision from the said claims, while insulting others, and basing your righteousness on their ethnicity is uncalled for.

quote:

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I hope Im being vulgar enough to get my point across because I do not suffer fools lightly and I am being played as a cad and a fool by any number of you.

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I think the only one trying to 'play' anything is you.

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Where is your enlightened empathy when people make cruel and derisive remarks about White and Mixed people?

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Right here.

White people?

If you knew me, or were family, you'd know me.

Mixed people?

Come to think of , not more than one generation I have multiple non-african ancestors of differing ethnicities and still have photos of them.

You obviously don't know me.

Any way, if you are refering to like 2 of the haters who posted here, I don't have time to bother with such simplistic haterism on you or the movie.

Such low-level drivel whether coming from emotionally sore white losers to pessimistic whiney black haters is not much to begin with, other than laughable at times.

By the way I not only meant to comment on their comments, but a couple of your other comments, and meant to ask Sundiatta a question I did not ask. I no longer have time for these drawn out threads.

To point it out, my commenting on someones comments, obviously shows a concern for the person commenting.

I have stopped taking concern in white racists a while ago - they don't matter, [i]we

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Where are you when these whiners cherry pick information and change the subject to keep from having to acknowledge the inherent faults

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Just come right out and be as ignorant as the rest of these morans.

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This isnt about anything but dominance and control.

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Some of you feel powerless and humiliated

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by the dominant Caucasian culture

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that brought you to this continent.

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No one brought me to this continent. I was born here, and I stay here, willingly, and I plan to do some travelling, willingly.

It's distractionary roorag like the above that really 'get me' about you.

The reason I gave you the benefit of the doubt and didn't give you much 'trouble' is because agree with you cause and have seen your cause.

And am glad a native Egyptian gets to make such a film.

However I'm afraid you have mistaken me for a pawn, and the forum, to be exclusively Black American slave descendants.

I don't focus on the slaves as being who my ancestors were because it sure wasn't what my ancestors were - they were just extraordinary people.

Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

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But alot of people that have learned about Africa through special interest books focused narrowly on Eurocentric misinformation campaigns that masqueraded as world history for centuries

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Posts: 229 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

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Originally posted by Ebony Allen:
[QB] This Maahes guy is completely irrational.

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He talks nothing but nonsense.

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look whos talking!

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No one here cares anything about your clan.

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And you say anyone who claims Egypt as a purely black civilization is Afrocentric?

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Some people on this forum, like Djehuti, aren't even black!

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true

Posts: 229 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Nefar:
[QB]

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But alot of people that have learned about Africa through special interest books focused narrowly on Eurocentric misinformation campaigns that masqueraded as world history for centuries

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Exactly
and this is the main thing people here are trying to get others to relize.

But I dont understand...Sundiata why are you attacking Maahes like that?

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I haven't attacked Maahes but the fact that he continuously calls people out of their names, instead of addressing what it is he disagrees with, surely puts him in the same category of aspiring troll, if not full fledged.

I have absolutely nothing against Maahes, though given his taunting antics in sending me these silly private messages and him throwing public temper tantrums accompanied by tireless ad hominems, I can't say the same on his front.

Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged |