posted
The Khoisan were probably the original North Africans. They were the Cro-Magnon people who took the Augrinacian culture into Europe. The Khoisan are the ancestors of the Black Berbers whoes descendants probably live in Morocco and the Atlas Mountains. The Black Berbers of the Atlas Mountains and other parts of Northwest Africa are of Sub-Saharan origin and took African mtDNA into Western Europe over 40kya. The Gibraltar Straits appears to be the most reliable route for the spread of many mtDNA haplogroups from Africa, into Europe over the past 30ky (Winters,2012), including L3(M,N) . The Khoisan carry L1c,L1i, L2b, L3d ( Rito, et al ,2013) . The motif L3b, is widespread in western Africans. It is mainly found among populations that speak languages of the Niger-Congo family like the Mandekan.
Like most African haplogroups the control region of hg L1i include 16189,16223 and 16311, just like L3a and L3b. The mutation that connects the Khoisan to the spread of L3(M,N) is AF24. The AF24 mutation is found in LOd and among the Khoisan and Senegalese .The existence of AF24 in Senegal and Southern Africa suggest that L1c, L2b, L3d and L3e is not the result of intermarriage with Bantu immigrants , as suggested by Rito et al(2013) .
LOd is the oldest mtDNA haplogroup . This haplogroup is primarily carried by the Khoisan people (Winters,2014) . It is also found among Niger-Congo speakers in West Africa where we also find LOa in West Africa in addition to L3b.
The Cro Magnon DNA found in the ancient skeletons dates back to the Aurignacian period (Winters,2011). The Cro magnon skeletons belong to the N haplogroup.
The Cro Magnon skeletons carried N1a,N1b,N1c and N* (Winters, 2010,2011). It is characterized by motifs 00073G,10873C, 10238T and A4CC between nucleotide positions 10397 and 10400. Most of the skeletons carried hg N*.
It is obvious that L3 (M,N) had expanded into Europe prior to the Neolithic. . .
Frigi et al (2010), in Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations noted that: “Our results also point to a less ancient western African gene flow to Tunisia involving haplogroups L2a and L3b. Thus the sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africa starting from the east would have taken place before the Neolithic. The western African contribution to North Africa should have occurred before the Sahara’s formation (15,000 BP)”.
This would explain why Pericot and Dominguez (2005) found evidence of hg L3 at ancient Iberian sites. Luis Pericot was sure that the populations associated with the Gravettian (32kya) and Soultrean (23kya) cultures were phylogenetically Sub-Saharan African (Dominguez,2005). Dominguez (2005) found that the lineages recovered from ancient skeletons associated with these cultures belonged to the African lineages L1b,L2 and L3. Almost 50% of the lineages from the Abauntz Chalcolithic deposits and Tres Montes, in Navarre are the Sub-Saharan lineages L1b,L2 and L3.
In summary, the Black Berbers took African mtDNA into Western Europe over 40kya. The Tuareg probably helped spread hg H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.
References: Domínguez E.F. (2005). Polimorfismos de DNA mitocondrial en poblaciones antiguas de la cuenca mediterránea. Universitat de Barcelona. Departament de Biologia Animal, 2005 (PhD thesis).
Frigi et al. (2010). Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations, Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4). Rito T, Richards MB, Fernandes V, Alshamali F, Cerny V, et al. (2013) The First Modern Human Dispersals across Africa. PLoS ONE 8(11): e80031. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0080031
Winters,C. (2010). Origin and spread of the Haplogroup N. Bioresearch Bull (2010) 3:116-122.
Winters C.(2011). The Gibraltar Out of Africa Exit for Anatomically Modern Humans. WebmedCentral BIOLOGY 2011;2(10):WMC002319 doi: 10.9754/journal.wmc.2011.002319
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [The Khoisan were probably the original North Africans. They were the Cro-Magnon people who took the Augrinacian culture into Europe.
The only Cro-Magnon specimin in Europe believed by a Smithsonian reseracher in 1930 to resemble the San Bushman are two individuals known as "Grimaldi man" They had unique morphology compared to human remains in other sites in Europe as well as remains found in different layers of the same Balzi Rossi caves in the Italian town of Grimaldi -However other remains in the cave complex have not been named "Grimaldi man" though they are in the same town. "Grimaldi man" was a name applied to a speicifc type within the site
Below is the orignal quote speculating similarity between the two Grimaldi man specimins ( a woman and a boy) to Khoisans
At the base of the Aurignacian deposits of Grimaldi, and dating apparently from the very beginning of that epoch, were found two skeletons which have aroused great interest among prehistorians. For they have been held to indicate the existence at that time in this part of Europe of representatives of a race which was neither that of Neanderthal nor that of Cro-Magnon. The skeletons belonged to a youth and a woman, both of rather short stature (Plate 25), and they present traits which have been interpreted as Negroid in character. Tt will be remembered that the Cro-Magnon race, with its Aurigna- cian culture, is supposed to have entered Europe from Asia by way of northern Africa and the old land-bridges across to Italy. Now in recent years there are coming to light all over Africa remains of a type of art, consisting mainly of engravings and paintings of animals, which in many ways recall the remarkable cave art of the Upper Paleolithic in Europe.
MAN FROM THE FARTHEST PAST
In South Africa works of this character are attributed in part to those dwarfish, yellow-skinned, woolly-haired little hunters, the Bushmen, themselves undoubtedly a very ancient race, now nearly extinct. Moreover, cer- tain of the physical peculiarities of the latter people are shown clearly in the figures of very stout nude women, carved from ivory or soft stone, which have been found here and there in the Upper Paleolithic of Europe (Fig.i6). These facts, taken in conjunction with the Negroid traits ascribed to the two Grimaldi skeletons just mentioned, seem to hint at some African influence on Aurignacian art. Any more definite conclusion than this, however, we should hardly be justified in drawing as yet.
At all events we have now reached the point, in our backward journey through time, when Aurignacian man first appears in Europe and takes the place till then occu- pied by the low-grade race of Neanderthal. As far as western Europe is concerned, Neanderthal man disap- pears completely from the scene never to return. Whether he was in part absorbed and in part exterminated by the far superior Cro-Magnon race, or whether he died out from other causes, we can not as yet say with certainty.^
Beyond doubt contact, with intermarriage between the two races, did occur. The spread of civilized man over so much of the globe at the expense of less advanced races during the past few centuries shows us what usually hap- pens in such cases. The lower culture, even though destined in the long run to be entirely destroyed by the higher, yet borrows from the latter many of its features, particularly in the domain of warfare.
MAN FROM THE FARTHEST PAST
By
Carl Whiting Bishop
Associate Curator, Freer Gallery of Art
with the collaboration of
Charles Greeley Abbot
Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution
AND
Ales Hrdlicka
Curator, Division of Phvsical Anthropologv United States National Museum
The African/Black Variety was recognized by the Egyptians.
Wally wrote:
quote: [T]he [Egyptian] symbolism of colors [was] used in the everyday human life of people.
Km.t Niu.t - the Black world; a collection of African people whose complexions ranged from "high yellow" to red to "jet black" (kem.t khet); a Black person grasps this concept automatically...
*Dereshu - When encountering non-Blacks for the first time on a grand scale, the appellation used to describe light-skinned Blacks (sa deresh ) was conveniently transposed to identify all non-Black peoples...
This makes it clear that there was no one type of African or Black there was a Black/African Variety.
The pigmentation and facial features of African/Black people have varied. The facial features can be explained by diet. Generally, physical anthropologists can tell the difference between the skeletal remains of an African,and European. This is due to “extremes” in African craniometrics. Carlson and Gerven observed that the variance in craniofacial features in African populations may be due to diet( See: Carlson,D. and Van Gerven,D.P. (1979). Diffussion, biological determinism and bioculdtural adaptation in the Nubian corridor,American Anthropologist, 81, 561-580.) The research indicates that craniofacial features, in relation to the skull can be shaped, in evolutionary terms by heritability and high biomechanical load. This is reflected in the morphological heterogeneity within the same population studied by Carlson and Gerven when they studied Nubian craniometrics.
These researchers explained that the differences in Nubian skeletal remains was not the result of populaton changes resulting from invasion. They argued that the skeletal remains represented the same population.
So instead of the changes in crania reflecting biological diffusion, the changes in facial features result from changes in diet that lead to less masticatory stress associated with changes in subsistence patterns . Research shows that changes in diet lead to variation in the size and position of the muscles of mastication which inturn lead to reduction in the robustness of the craniofacial complex. This would explain why the use of multivariate techniques show variability between modern and ancient crania and skulls of African people and the broad or fine features associated with diverse African populations.
Enviromental factors have also played a role in the development of an African/Black Variety. For example , the narrow slanted eyes of most Blacks living in the Sahel, South India and Northeast and West Africa such as the Dravidians, some Egyptians, Nubians, Fulani and Ethiopians, are probably adaptations of Blacks during the previous Ice Age, when much of the area around Lake Chad is suppose to have been a glacial area. .
. Many scholars believe that the melting of these glaciers may have been the cause for the appearence of numerous Lakes, rivers and streams in the Sahara. The narrow slanted eyes of Blacks here in the United States and Western Africa result from the descent from African people who formed an extra layer of fat to keep out the cold of the Ice Age. This cold and ice had little effect on the skin color/pigmentation of the African.
The straight hair hair of groups such as the Australians and East indians (Dravidians) probably originated in Africa.
The ancestors of these groups probably lived in periglacial regions of Africa where straight hair probably evolved. .
. The Dravidians for example were part of the Maa Confederation and lived in the highland areas of Middle Africa like the Tibesti, until after the great flood when they migrated out of the highlands into the valley regions, and thence to Asia, where along with the Mande speakers the Dravidians expanded into Iran, India and eventually China.
In summary the straight hair of Africans relate to living in the periglacial regions of Africa before the great glaciers melted completely.
The craniofacial evidence makes it clear that the Aurignacian people came from Africa . The Aurignacian people are called Grimaldi Or Cro-Magnon.
Boule and Vallois, note that "To sum up, in the most ancient skeletons from the Grotte des Enfants we have a human type which is readily comparable to modern types and especially to the Negritic or Negroid type" (p.289). They continue, "Two Neolithic individuals from Chamblandes in Switzerland are Negroid not only as regards their skulls but also in the proportions of their limbs. Several Ligurian and Lombard tombs of the Metal Ages have also yielded evidences of a Negroid element.
Since the publication of Verneau's memoir, discoveries of other Negroid skeletons in Neolithic levels in Illyria and the Balkans have been announced. The prehistoric statues, dating from the Copper Age, from Sultan Selo in Bulgaria are also thought to portray Negroids.
In 1928 Rene Bailly found in one of the caverns of Moniat, near Dinant in Belgium, a human skeleton of whose age it is difficult to be certain, but seems definitely prehistoric. It is remarkable for its Negroid characters, which give it a reseblance to the skeletons from both Grimaldi and Asselar (p.291).
Boule and Vallois, note that "We know now that the ethnography of South African tribes presents many striking similarities with the ethnography of our populations of the Reindeer Age. Not to speak of their stone implements which, as we shall see later , exhibit great similarities, Peringuey has told us that in certain burials on the South African coast 'associated with the Aurignacian or Solutrean type industry...."(p.318-319). They add, that in relation to Bushman art " This almost uninterrupted series leads us to regard the African continent as a centre of important migrations which at certain times may have played a great part in the stocking of Southern Europe. Finally, we must not forget that the Grimaldi Negroid skeletons sho many points of resemblance with the Bushman skeletons". They bear no less a resemblance to that of the fossil Man discovered at Asslar in mid-Sahara, whose characters led us to class him with the Hottentot-Bushman group."
Sources:
1. Boule, M., HV Vallois . (1957). Fossil Man . Dryden Press New York
2. Barral,L. & Charles,R.P. (1963) Nouvelles donnees anthropometriques et precision sue les affinities systematiques des negroides de Grimaldi, Bulletin du Musee d’anthropologie prehistorique de Monaco, No.10:123-139.
3. Verneaux,R: Les Origines de l’humanite. Paris: F. Riedder & Cie, 1926.
4. Boule, M., HV Vallois in Fossil Man link the San people and the Aurignacians who are labled today Cro-Magnon
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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It's funny, because when you post about europeans they can have a very diverse look. And you have no problem bolstering them as white.
However, when it comes to Africa you always show the same discontent and prejudice notions.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The indigenous North Africans who 10's of 1000's of years much later became 'Berber' speakers are not descended from Khoe nor San. We have more to go on now than they had back in the 50's and before.
Anthropology has come a long way since the idea of Reindeer Age Europeans representing Negro, Mongol, and Caucasian typologies.
All peoples appearances are not reducible to one of three archetypes or intermixture between them. We now about in situ drift development.
And why do you Black guys prefix black to everything? When you do that you make the black seem like a substandard version, eg. Berber = a real Berber Black Berber = black version of a Berber
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: The indigenous North Africans who 10's of 1000's of years much later became 'Berber' speakers are not descended from Khoe nor San. We have more to go on now than they had back in the 50's and before.
Anthropology has come a long way since the idea of Reindeer Age Europeans representing Negro, Mongol, and Caucasian typologies.
All peoples appearances are not reducible to one of three archetypes or intermixture between them. We now about in situ drift development.
And why do you Black guys prefix black to everything? When you do that you make the black seem like a substandard version, eg. Berber = a real Berber Black Berber = black version of a Berber
This is done because Europeans have created a mental picture of historical figures. Diop, like other researchers have recognize that when you say the word Berber, people picture a Caucasian. This is why we have to say Black, when denoting the Black ethnic groups in history.
Why weren't the Khoisan the original Berbers. We know that the first people enter western Eurasia entered Iberia across the Straits of Gibraltar. These people as noted by Boule were Khoisan.
It seems that if Khoisan lived in North Africa before they entered Iberia they would have accupied North Africa. Ancient People in Northwest Africa are called Berbers, so the Khoisan who were inhabiatants of NA. It would be only natural that Khoisan would be a relic population in the area.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Anthropology has come a long way since the idea of Reindeer Age Europeans representing Negro, Mongol, and Caucasian typologies.
****All peoples appearances are not reducible to one of three archetypes or intermixture between them.*** We now about in situ drift development.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Anthropology has come a long way since the idea of Reindeer Age Europeans representing Negro, Mongol, and Caucasian typologies.
****All peoples appearances are not reducible to one of three archetypes or intermixture between them.*** We now about in situ drift development.
LOL.Instead of using the term race, most Anthropologist use the term population to identify the three populations: Sub-Saharan Africans (SSA/Negroes), Europeans (western Eurasians: Caucasian), East (Eur)Asians (mongoloid). To identify negro Europeans for example, researchers just claim they are dark skin or craniometrically SSA.
Explain the mechanism for this in situ drift development. Provide documented examples from Africa. .
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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One never sees a current article stating that human remains of prehistoric hunter gatherer North Africa resemble Khoisan morphology
___________________________
take the follwing for what it's worth, Coon says something here that corresponds to your view
summary of three chapters dedicated to Africa, taken from the books The Living Races of Man (1965), Anthropology A to Z (1963) and The Races of Europe (1939), by Carleton S. Coon.
In 1924, a skull some 5,000-10,000 years old was found on the bank of the Blue Nile, 200 miles south of Khartoum, at Singa. The Singa specimen coexisted with extinct species of antelope, porcupine, and giraffe. The skull has a paedomorphic occiput, a narrow, bulging forehead and parietals, rectangular orbits, a flat face, and a large jaw. Except for it's moderately large brow ridges, the features of the skull could hint towards an original Khoisanid of large body size.
At Homa, Lake Victoria, Kenya, two skulls have been found in a Mesolithic Shell mound with Early Wilton (Bushman) artifacts. These, too, are the remains of large-bodied Khoisanids. At Boskop, on the east bank of the Mooi River in the southwestern Transvaal, a third such skull has been located. From Florisbad, a mineral spring twenty-five miles north of Bloemfontein in the Transvaal, has come what seems to be a fourth. All are presumably post-Pleistocene.
Some 8,000-9,000 years ago, Khoisanids were the main, if not the only, inhabitants of southern Africa. The fairly abundant skeletal remains indicate that some populations became small and others did not. Dwarfism and fetalization of the face were most extreme in the marginal, desert-dwelling Bushmen. The Hottentots were larger and less fetalized, and were also probably more hybridized with Negroids.
Less than 1,000 years ago, large Khoisanids built hilltop forts or shrines at Mapungwe and Bambandyanolo, near the Limpopo River in the northern Transvaal. These forts were in use until less than 200 years before the Dutch settled in Capetown. The abundant skeletal remains of these people were unequivocally Khoisanid, and clay figurines of the women show the steatopygia and elongated labia minora which can still be found in living Bush and Hottentot women.
Another large Khoisanid people (the Duwwud) still live by three salt lakes in the Fezzan, Libya. The Sandawe, a tribe speaking a language related to Bush and Hottentot, still live in central Tanganyika.
The sum of this evidence suggests that the Khoisanids are a northern people who have moved south since the Pleistocene. Perhaps they were displaced by Mouillians and Capsians along the Mediterranean coast. They are a sizable ingredient in the racial ancestry of the present-day Bantuid and Cape Colored peoples of tropical and southern Africa.
Bushman Physical Attributes
The Khoisanids exhibit a great disproportion of size between the large cranial skeleton and the short face, especially in the small-sized groups. The brain case is swollen and globular, with a prominent forehead and a markedly bent cranial base (nasion-sella-basion angle). The face is short, flat, puny, and infantile. Certain features of the Bushman's physique which have been commonly noted have led to a theory that they are paedomorphic, or infantile, a trait more apparent in some individuals than in others. One of these features is a prominent forehead, found among children, some women, but not many adult males. Another is a low nasal bridge and a flattish nasal tip. These features are racial as well as infantile, and contribute, along with their yellowish skins, to the oft-noted Mongoloid appearance of the Bushmen. The teeth often show moderate shoveling of the maxillary incisors and some enamel pearls of the upper molars. Third molars are seldom missing, but the maxillary third molars are a bit more reduced in complexity than in most Negroids. Taurodontism is sporadic. Although the teeth in general seem closest to those of the Negroids, Coon thought that their tenuous resemblances to those of Mongoloids indicates a common ancestry of the two races, perhaps in the Lower or Middle Pleistocene.
The legs are of medium length in proportion to their stature. In contrast to the bunchy, long-tendoned muscles of the Pygmies and the Negroids, their limb muscles are long-bellied and have short tendons, like those of Mongoloids. Their hands and feet are small. The yellowish skin, which tans to light or medium brown, reflects 43 percent of sunlight, as compared to the 23 percent reflected by the black skin of Negroid Africans. In this the Bushman is as well adapted to life in the desert as are the Arabs and the American Indians. In contrast to the bulging eyeballs common in Pygmies, the Bushman's eyes are protected from the glare by slitted, often fat-laden lids, like those of Eskimos. His glabrous body, bare neck, and peppercorn hair, which leaves patches of scalp exposed, facilitate heat loss at high temperatures. The head hair is never long because it breaks off. He protects his body against the cold with warm skins.
The usual pubertal form of the feminine nipple, with its swollen areola, is exaggerated among Bushman girls, to the extent that the nipples look like bright orange balls loosely attached to the breasts, a startling sexual attraction that wanes after the first baby has been suckled and weaned. Another Bushman specialty concerns the female genitalia. Owing to a deficiency of growth in the labia majora which thus fail to seal the vaginal entrance, the inner lips fall through the gap. As a Bushman woman grows older, her inner lips protrude all the more, and they may ultimately bang down three or four inches. Despite much study, no one really knows to what extent this sexual feature is a product of nature and to what extent of artifice. It is quite possible that both factors are involved.
According to early accounts, all unmixed Bushman males have penises which protrude forward as in infants even when not in erection, but this is not always true. Another oddity of Bushmen is monorchy, or the descent of only one testicle, but this also is not universal among Bushman males.
The most famous physical attribute of the Bushman is of course steatopygia, which is most commonly found and most highly developed in the women. The gluteal fat is held out by fibrous tissue, preventing the buttocks from sagging. The Bushmen are not the only steatopygous people in the world, nor is the protrusion of their buttocks wholly or even largely an artifact of lordosis, or forward-curvature of the lumbar region. The Bushman buttocks have often been compared to the hump or humps on camels and zebus and to the tail of the fat-tailed sheep. It has been proposed, without proof, that the fat on the Bushman's buttocks provides nourishment needed for survival. If so, it's absence or minor development in the males seems contradictory. On the other hand, the Bushmen gorge themselves after a successful kill, as their deeply wrinkled abdominal skin indicates. One suggestion that we have not heard is that steatopygia is advantageous in the nutrition of the mother and the fetus during pregnancy and also during prolonged lactation when associated with a scarcity of food and especially of foodstuffs suitable for weaning. This suggestion is only an idea, and needs to be tested.
Several other features distinguish the Bushmen. Their skins wrinkle deeply in maturity and old age, and not just in the abdomen. They lack the body odor of Pygmies and Negroids. Their ears are small, square on top, and often lobeless, though the contour Pattern of helix and antihelix is deep and complex. Their hands and feet are quite different from those of Negroid Africans, and their nails much more curved. Despite the evidente of blood-group studies, to date incomplete, the Bushmen are a race sui generis, and their relationship to Negroids is probably due to the Negroids' having absorbed Bushman genes, for of the two the Bushman seems to be the older race.
The Hottentots
When the Dutch settled Capetown in order to provide a watering and ships' chandlering station for their vessels sailing to and from the rich East Indies, they saw more Hottentots than Bushmen. Once the Dutch had begun to farm and graze the rich Cape Province, they competed for pasture with the cattle-breeding Hottentots more than with the Bushmen. Today the Bushmen outnumber the Hottentots, who have been largely absorbed through mixture.
The origins of the Hottentots are obscured by legends and complicated by anthropological interpretations. Because the Hottentots must have obtained cattle and the art of metallurgy from the northeast before the Bantu invasions, some anthropologists have concluded that they got these cultural advantages from East Africans, whom they absorbed racially and linguistically. Their present physical appearance, however, indicates that whomever they mixed with was more Negroid than Europid.
The living Hottentots are larger than the Bushmen, with a mean stature of 163 centimeters (5 feet 4 inches) for males. They tend to be a little darker in skin color, and if anything even more steatopygous. In general features, particularly of the face and hair, they are partly Negroid. Their blood groups do not help clarify the question of Hottentot origins, partly because the Bushmen and the Bantu are similar in most of the blood-group factors so far studied among the Bushmen, and partly because the Hottentots show certain serological peculiarities of their own. The Hottentots are, in sum, a clinal South African population mostly but not entirely of Bushman origin.
The Sandawe and Hatsa
The Sandawe and Hatsa (or Kindiga) are two groups of Khoisan-speaking peoples living in Tanzania. The Sandawe have been studied anthropometrically, the Hatsa have not.
According to their own tradition, the Sandawe were originally yellow-skinned hunters with peppercorn hair who came into their present country about a hundred years ago. Before that time they had met the Bantu-speaking Nyaturu and the Tatoga, who speak a dialect of Nandi (Eastern Sudanic). Both were herdsmen, and the Tatoga were also cultivators. The Sandawe traded women forcattle with both these tribes, before they entered their present country, and in recent times the Sandawe themselves have absorbed some Nyaturu genes. The living Sandawe are anthropometrically closer to Hottentots than to Bushmen, but have little steatopygia. Their hair form grades from peppercorn to frizzly, their skin is mostly brown. The Nyaturu, themselves part Sandawe, are intermediate between the latter and West African Negroids in many features.
The Berbers
The living peoples of North Africa are predominantly Europid. They apparently reached their present homeland before the end of the Pleistocene, with the incursion of a Palearctic fauna. One of their two cultures, both of which included blades and microliths, is called Mouillian. The second (Capsian) may be a little later. The Mouillian population was more rugged in physique, and the Capsians more linear. Their place of origin may have been the Middle East or, perhaps less likely, western Europe.
The descendants of those West Asian invaders are the Berbers. From the beginning the Berbers have had relationships with older African peoples. As their skeletal remains suggest, the Mouillians probably mixed with the preceding Aterian population. According to J. H. Greenberg, the Berber languages, like Ancient Egyptian, are of African origin and replaced whatever European or Western Asian languages the invaders may have spoken.
In this context, skeletally Europid individuals have small teeth, narrow and prominent noses, and faces with little or no anterior projection of the forehead or of the jaws. These individuals may vary in skin color from the paleness of a northern European to the darkest of browns. In general, the darker groups are admixed with Negroids.
All the living Berbers have some form or forms of symbiotic relationship with native Africans. In every Rifian village of any size, the ironwork is done by a Negroid smith. Other blacks serve as butchers and town criers at weekly markets, and still others are musicians who wander from tribe to tribe enlivening weddings and other festivities. Blacks, then, are the principal service personnel among agricultural Berbers, and probably have been so since the introduction of iron into North Africa early in the Christian era.
Among the part-time and full-time nomads the interracial relationship is more complicated. The Ait Atta, for example, who pasture their sheep in the Middle Atlas in summer and in the Dades Valley to the south in winter, have their castles and gardens in the Dades Valley. There they delegate the agricultural work to a taste of Negroid serfs, the Haratin. Other Haratin are found in oases all along the northern fringe of the Sahara, and indeed throughout the desert.
The camel nomads, particularly the famed Tuareg, or People of the Veil, are divided into castes of nobles, imghad, or camel-breeding dependents who also have their Haratin, and slaves. The merchant communities of the great oases, like the Mzabites of Ghardaia, foster endogamy as they belong to a schismatic sect of Islam, that of the Khawarij, or Kharijites. They too have their gardens tilled by Haratin.
Wherever or however they live, the Berbers refuse to mate with the Negroid lower classes, but human nature being what it is, there evidently has been a certain amount of mixture. In Morocco, the most Europid tribes are those of the Rif and the Middle Atlas; in Algeria they are the Kabyles and the Shawia; and in Libya, the sedentary tribesmen of Jebel Nefusa. In certain regions the trickle of mixture with Africans has been balanced by the absorption of Arabs, not so muck tribe by tribe but through the establishment of saintly families derived from the earlier of the two main Arab invasions. These Arabs came mostly from al Hijaz and Yemen, and were not Bedouin.
In various series of Berbers, the means for body, head, and face measurements fall somewhere between those of the Western Asian mountain peoples, the southwestern and western Europeans, and the Arabs. The range of stature is from about 165 centimeters to 172 centimeters (5 feet 4 inches to 5 feet 7 inches). The range in body build is from stocky to lean, with relative sitting heights usually around 51, but falling to 49 in desert tribes. Most Berbers, none of whom practice cradling, are dolichocephalic or mesocephalic. Most of them have straight or convex nasal profiles. Their faces and jaws tend to be narrow, although some broad faces with snub noses may be seen.
The lightest pigmentation recorded is that of the Rifians, the most European-looking Berbers. They have a 65 percent incidence of pinkish-white unexposed skin color (von Luschan Numbers 1-3 and 6-9). This goes as high as 86 percent in some tribes. Twentythree percent are freckled. Ten percent have light brown or blond head hair; in some tribes, 25 percent do. In beard color, 45 percent of Rifians are reddish, light brown, or blond bearded; in some tribes, this figure rises to 57 percent, with 24 percent completely blond. The ratio of red head hair among Rifians is 4 percent, as in Scotland and Ireland. Seventeen percent have reddish beards; in some tribes 28 percent do. Light hair among Rifians is mostly golden or reddish, rarely ash blond.
In the Rif, dark eyes are found among 43 percent of the men, mixed eyes in 35 percent, and light eyes in 2 percent; and the mixed eyes have green or blue elements rather than gray. The tribe with the lightest pigmentation in general, the Beni Amart, has an incidence of 18 percent, 73 percent, and 9 percent in each of these categories. These mountain tribesmen and some of their neighbors on the coast are a little fairer than most southern European populations.
Their blondism is comparable to the blondism of Western Europe and Western Asia, not to that of Northern and Eastern Europe. They resemble the Western Europeans, however, rather than the Western Asians in development of body hair, which is light to moderate. Only 5 percent of Rifians have the bushy, concurrent eyebrows seen among Western Asian mountaineers. The hair of most Rifians is curly - that is, it forms ringlets - in over 50 percent of the men. No individuals with frizzly or woolly hair were measured or seen. This African form of hair, however, is found among 12 percent of Shluh, Berbers of the Atlas Mountains and the Sous Valley. The Shluh also have a 12 percent incidence of epicanthic fold.
African traits manifest themselves among various Berber populations in different ways and to different degrees. Among the Rifians and Kabyles it shows itself mostly in broad faces, heavy jaws, and snub noses. These features are sometimes associated with red hair, greenish eyes, and freckles. Among the Soussis the same broad-faced element is present, and some individuals actually look Mongoloid. The Soussi depicted on Plate 109c has a recombination of Bushman features: flattish face, low nasal profile, everted lips, and Bushman ears.
Legends persist along the fringes of the Sahara about the presence of an earlier, non-Europid people. According to the paramount chief of the Ait Atta, when their ancestors first came down from the mountains to their present winter quarters in the Dades Valley they found that region occupied by yellow-skinned people whom they conquered and reduced to the status of agricultural serfs. Later these yellow people mixed with Negro slaves, producing the present-day serfs, who are called Haratin. Many of the Haratin resemble Hottentots.
In the Fezzan in southern Libya live a people - the so-called Duwwud or Dawwada (worm-folk) - who speak Arabic, hunt jerboas, raise a few dates, and above all harvest the salt lakes, where they live, for Artemesia, a brine shrimp that multiplies in prodigious numbers. These shrimp are dried and compressed into cakes, which the Duwwud trade to Arab caravans. The Duwwud also look like Hottentots. Other partly Bushman and partly Negroid people are also to be found in the Sahara.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Anthropology has come a long way since the idea of Reindeer Age Europeans representing Negro, Mongol, and Caucasian typologies.
****All peoples appearances are not reducible to one of three archetypes or intermixture between them.*** We now about in situ drift development.
LOL.Instead of using the term race, most Anthropologist use the term population to identify the three populations: Sub-Saharan Africans (SSA/Negroes), Europeans (western Eurasians: Caucasian), East (Eur)Asians (mongoloid). To identify negro Europeans for example, researchers just claim they are dark skin or craniometrically SSA.
Explain the mechanism for this in situ drift development. Provide documented examples from Africa. .
Agreed, they use obscure definitions. Which still imply their old racist ideologies. The term they've changed, their empathy not.
Anyway,
The American Journal of Human Genetics, Volume 88
Supplemental Data
A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal
Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa
Fulvio Cruciani, Beniamino Trombetta, Andrea Massaia, Giovanni Destro-Bisol, Daniele Sellitto, and Rosaria Scozzari
Figure S1. Map Showing Location of the Population Samples Considered in This Study
Populations are represented by circles and numbered as in Table S5. Sectors within circles are proportional to the frequency of haplogroup A1a (green), A1b (red) and A2-T (black). Green asterisks indicate countries were haplogroup A1a has previously been observed.
See:
Table S1. Haplogroup Affiliation of the Seven Chromosomes that Were Re-sequenced
Table S5: Populations considered for the mutations defining major clades A1b, A1a and A2-T.
^ Clyde, this Libyan Tuareg looks quite different from the Khoisans. While most Khoisan are mixed with bantu the above Khoisan men don't look bantu Perhaps the above Libyan Tuareg has roots more south like in Mali or Niger which is also part of the Tuareg territory
Other Tuaregs might look more simialr to Khosians
Tuareg rebel leader, Iyad Ag Ghaly
Tuareg spokesman Hama Ag Sid Ahmed Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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You can't base a theory off of one or two photos You would have to coordinate Khoisan DNA with Moroccan DNA and that is not going to match well
Taroudant is a Moroccan city located in the Sous Valley in the southern part of the country.
The town was occupied by the Almoravids in 1056.
Under the Saadi Dynasty Taroudant had its golden age, particularly under the reign of Mohammed ash-Sheikh. (1549–1554, 1554–1557) He was particularly successful in expelling the Portuguese from most of their bases in Morocco. He also eliminated the Wattasids and resisted the Ottomans, thereby establishing a complete rule over Morocco.
In 1687 Sultan Moulay Ismail massacred much of the population for its support to his nephew, Ahmed Ben Mahriz Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
You place black before things that don't need it because you totally buy into defining white power.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: The indigenous North Africans who 10's of 1000's of years much later became 'Berber' speakers are not descended from Khoe nor San. We have more to go on now than they had back in the 50's and before.
Anthropology has come a long way since the idea of Reindeer Age Europeans representing Negro, Mongol, and Caucasian typologies.
All peoples appearances are not reducible to one of three archetypes or intermixture between them. We now about in situ drift development.
And why do you Black guys prefix black to everything? When you do that you make the black seem like a substandard version, eg. Berber = a real Berber Black Berber = black version of a Berber
This is done because Europeans have created a mental picture of historical figures. Diop, like other researchers have recognize that when you say the word Berber, people picture a Caucasian. This is why we have to say Black, when denoting the Black ethnic groups in history.
Why weren't the Khoisan the original Berbers. We know that the first people enter western Eurasia entered Iberia across the Straits of Gibraltar. These people as noted by Boule were Khoisan.
It seems that if Khoisan lived in North Africa before they entered Iberia they would have accupied North Africa. Ancient People in Northwest Africa are called Berbers, so the Khoisan who were inhabiatants of NA. It would be only natural that Khoisan would be a relic population in the area.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Your Lyin'ass loves fake butt portraiture that no wise matches pen portraits don't you troll?
As far as Moulay-Ismail, this is how Mulay al-Rashid was described at the time: "He is of middle size; his face is long and thin; his beard, forked and white, []his color, almost black with a white mark near the nose" - Abbé Busnot, Histoire de Regne de Mouley Ismael, Roven, 1714
Why didn't you post Morocco's founding father? The portrait of Mulay al-Rashid (or "Mulay Arsheid Zeriff" in the US National Portrait Gallery)
You can't base a theory off of one or two photos You would have to coordinate Khoisan DNA with Moroccan DNA and that is not going to match well
You can't read I have presented archaeogenetic data to support my thesis. DNA is not the only way to support a connection. The arcaheological data support a migration of probable Khoisan migration from Southern Africa to North Africa. You have to remember that many populations have settled Morocco, so their might not always be a one-to-one correspondence between contemporary Khoisan haplogroups and haplogroups found among contemporary Berbers in Morocco and the Atlas mountains. But given the geography, we would expect to see elements of Khoisan relic population genes among Atlas Mountain Berbers.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: Figure S1. Map Showing Location of the Population Samples Considered in This Study
Populations are represented by circles and numbered as in Table S5. Sectors within circles are proportional to the frequency of haplogroup A1a (green), A1b (red) and A2-T (black). Green asterisks indicate countries were haplogroup A1a has previously been observed.
See:
Table S1. Haplogroup Affiliation of the Seven Chromosomes that Were Re-sequenced
Table S5: Populations considered for the mutations defining major clades A1b, A1a and A2-T.
The hominids and tool kits common to South Africa also appear in Morocco. It is no secret that the earliest Y-chromosome haplogroups have been found in Morocco and among the Khoisan. These haplogroups belong to hg A (M91); among the Moroccans we find A1b and A1a.The Khoisan mtDNA was named originally L1a,L1d and L1k, these clades are called LoD and LoK today.
Morocco has yielded impotant new data on African prehistory. Here we find a complex and rich set of early hominids from Jebel Irhoud, Dar es-Soltan and Contrebandiers Cave.
A pan-African Middle Stone Age (MSA) culture existed that united South Africa and Morocco.The Moroccan tools are Levallois technology and Mousterian industries were used in South Africa,North Africa and western Eurasia. Dibble et al (2013) has shown that Pan-African industries included cognate scrapers, Levallois tools, Nassarius beads and engraved ostrich shells. The Moroccans and South Africans shared Levallois tools and the use of ochre, bone tools and ostrich shells. Bouaouggar et al (2007) has shown how the shell beads from Grotte des Pigeons (Taforalt,Morocco) and South Africa's Blombos Caves. The archaeological evidence is clear the Khoisan in Morocco and South Africa shared behavioral , cognitive and technological styles. The major behavioral indicators shared by the Moroccan and South African Khoisan was mining,beads, blades, ochre and bone tools between 200-40kya. It is important to note that Moroccan tools are Levallois technologies and Mousterian industries used in North Africa and Western Eurasia. We also should note that Neanderthals also used Mousterian tools.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: You place black before things that don't need it because you totally buy into defining white power.
Not really. Europeans make sure to define everything as Black and white. As a result, if you don't add the prefix Black to Berbers, people will assume we are talking about the Amazigh or Caucasian Berbers.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
You're repeating yourself And you accept their definitions and support them.
What you need to do is prefix white to berber when referring to white berbers and leave Berber/Amazigh/Imazighen unprefixed when speaking of indigenees.
He who defines the words defines the world.
What euros did was define the word to redefine the world in their image
and you go right along with them
SMH
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The most archaic AMH remains come from Florished, South Africa; they date between 190-330 kya. Other ancient fossil evidence of AMH in South Africa come from Broken Hill (c.110kya) and the Klasis River caves (c. 65-105kya). The Khoisan early migrated into North Africa. As a result, we see shared cultural and behavioral traditions between 200-40kya among South Africans and Moroccans.
KHOISAN
The Khoisan carry haplogroups L3(M,N). Before they reached Iberia, they probably stopped in West Africa. Granted L3 and L2 are not as old as LOd, but Gonder et al (2006)provides very early dates for this mtDNA e.g., L3(M,N) 94.3; the South African Khoisan (SAK) carry L1c, L1,L2,L3(M,N) dates to 142.3kya; the Hadza are L2a, L2, L3(M,N), dates to 96.7kya. The dates for L1,L2,L3, M,N are old enough for the Khoisan to have taken N to West Africa, where we find L3, L2 and LOd and thence to Iberia as I suggested in my paper (Winters,2011). It is interesting to note that LO haplogroups are primarily found among Khoisan and West Africans. This shows that at some point in prehistory the Khoisan had migrated into West Africa on their way to Morocco. The basal L3(M) motiff in West Africa is characterized by the Ddel site np 10394 and Alul site np 10397 associated with AF-24. This supports my contention that Khoisan speakers early settled West Africa on their way to Iberia. The Khoisan may have introduced the L haplogroup to Iberia. The SAK populations carry haplogroups L2, and L3. Dominguez (2005) ,noted that much of the ancient mtDNA found in Iberia has no relationship to the people presently living in Iberia today and correspond to African mtDNA haplogroups . The SAK carry haplogroups L1c, L1,L2,L3 M,N and dates to 142.3kya; the Hadza are L2a, L2, L3, M,N, and dates to 96.7kya. The dates for L1,L2,L3(M,N) are old enough for the Khoisan to have taken N to West Africa and thence Iberia. Dominguez (2005) found that the lineages recovered from ancient Iberian skeletons are the African lineages L1b,L2 and L3. Almost 50% of the lineages from the Abauntz Chalcolithic deposits and Tres Montes, in Navarre are the Sub-Saharan lineages L1b,L2 and L3. The appearance of phylogenetically related sequences of hg L3 present in many ancient Iberian skeletons suggest that this haplogroup may have a long history in Iberia. This would support the possibility that SAK populations early settled ancient Iberia.
The Neanderthal used Mousterian tools. These tools were also being used in Africa as early 130kya. This places Neanderthalers in North Africa. The human types associated with the Neanderthal tools found at Jebel Ighoud and Haua Fteah resemble contemporaneous European Neanderthaler tools. The presence of Mousterian tools suggest that Neanderthalers mixed with Africans because we know that anatomically modern humans were living in the area at the time.
The African Neanderthal people used the common Levoiso-Mousterian tool kit originally discovered in Europe. The Nenderthal skeletons have come from Djebel Irhoud and El Guettar in Morocco (Ki-Zerbo,1981). Later Neanderthal people used the Aterian tool kit. It was probably in Morocco that Neanderthal and Khoisan interacted. An exception to this norm are the Khoisan who share a phylogenic relationship with Altai Neanderthals (Prufer, et al, 2013). Many researchers claim that Africans have no relationship to the Neanderthals.But Prufer et al (2013) share more alleles with Altaic Neanderthal than Denisova. In the Supplemental section of Prufer et al (2013) there is considerable discussion of the relationship between Neanderthal and Khoisan. In relation to the Altaic Neanderthal the non-Africans have a lower divergence rate than Africans between 10-20%. Prufer et al (2013) note little statistical difference between non-African and African divergence. Researchers have observered a relationship between the Neanderthals, the Khoisan and Yoruba. Prufer et al (2013) detected a relationship between the Neanderthal and Mandekan. It is interesting to note that Yoruba traditions place them in Mande-speaking areas (Prufer et al,2013). There is interesting information in Figure S7.1. In Figure S7.1 the maximum likelihood tree of bonobo, Denisova and Neanderthal, the closest present-day hmans are Africans, not Europeans. Reading the Tree Chart Graph, the neighbor joining tree of archaic and present day human individuals has the Khoisan following the Denisova. An interesting finding of Prufer et al (2013) was that Altaic Neanderthal and Denisova are estimated to have similar split times. The divergence estimate for African Khoisan-Mandekan and Altaic is younger than the split between Africans and Denisova archaic individuals and modern African individuals. The split times between the Khoisan and Mandekan may be explained by the presence of AF-24 haplotype in West Africa. The major problem with the paper is that the Prufer et al (2013)believe that there was a back-to-Africa migration of Eurasian genomes among West Africans people. This back migration probably did not occur. What we do know is that the ancient Kushite people belonged to the C-Group. The C-Group people spoke Niger-Congo and Dravidian languages. The Kushites founded many civilizations in Eurasia including the Sumerian and Elamite civilizations. The Kushites may have spread L3(M) and y-chromosome R haplogroup in Eurasia. This suggest that so-called Eurasian genomes are the result of admixtures of Europeans and Kushites. In summary the Khoisan early settled Morocco. From here they interacted with Neanderthal populations. Later the Khoisan migrated into Iberia an deposited many genomes of the L clade and L3(N) macrohaplogroup.
Reference:
de Domínguez E.F. Polimorfismos de DNA mitocondrial en poblaciones antiguas de la cuenca mediterránea. Universitat de Barcelona. Departament Biologia Animal, 2005 (PhD thesis).
Gonder MK, Mortensen HM, Reed FA, de Sousa A, Tishkoff SA. (2006). Whole mtDNA Genome Sequence Analysis of Ancient African Lineages. Mol Biol Evol. 2006 Dec 28.
Ki-Zerbo,J. (1981). Unesco General History of Africa Vol. 1: Methodology and African Prehistory (1981), pg.572.
Pruler,K, Racimo,F.,Patterson,N et al. (2014). The complete genome sequences of Neanderthal from the Altai, Mountains. Nature , 505/7481: 43-9. doi .10.1038/ Nature 12881.Epub.2013.Dec.18.
Scozzari, R, Massaia,A, Trombatta,B. et al.(2014). An unbiased resource of novel SNP markers provides a new chronology for human Y-chromosome and reveals a deep phylogenetic structure in Africa. Genome Research, January 6,2014, doi: 10.1101/gr./60785.113.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: You're repeating yourself And you accept their definitions and support them.
What you need to do is prefix white to berber when referring to white berbers and leave Berber/Amazigh/Imazighen unprefixed when speaking of indigenees.
He who defines the words defines the world.
What euros did was define the word to redefine the world in their image
and you go right along with them
SMH
That's deep.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
^ This is supposed to be Moulay Ali Cherif (or "Muley Arsheid Zeriff") considered to have been the founder of the Alaouite Dynasty of Morocco.
He died in 1659
the artist was a Czechoslovakian named Wenceslaus Hollar his works number some 2740
The date of the print here as shown in the corner is 1670, eleven years AFTER Moulay Ali Cherif DIED and one after the artist Wenceslaus Hollar visted Tangier
In other words, it is the likeness of Muley Arsheid Zeriff is in the imagination of the artist
^^^ So to try pass this of as a reliable likeness is lying
________________________________________________
^^^ This is the very evil sadistic Moulay Ismaïl Ibn Sharif second ruler of the Moroccan Alaouite dynasty.
He died in 1727
The above illustration is from the 1726 German Edition of
A Journey to Mequinez; The Residence of the Present Emperor of Fez and Morocco. On the Occasion of Commodore Stewart’s Embassy Thither for the Redemption of the British Captives in the Year 1721.
Reise nach Mequinetz, Der Residentz des heutigen Käysers von Fetz und ... By John Windus 1726
Windus was a member of the British delegation, and was sent in 1721 by King George I to the court of the Moroccan ruler Mulai Ismael, to conclude a peace treaty and to rid the English slave. Morocco, heavily involved in the piracy of the North African states towards the Europeans, held at that time caught about 1,100 Christians. Stuart was able to sign a contract in Ceuta, whereupon 296 Englishmen (including 25 captains) have been released. - This book is one of the first travel works that report exclusively on Morocco, with interesting observations about the country and people, life at court, etc. - "No work on Marocco had hitherto Appeared in English, with the exception of the meager, West Barbary '(1671) of L. Addison The description of the manners of the people renders the book, a curiosity ',. pronounced as it what by Boswell "(Cox). - The partly folded several times copper with great views of Tetuan, Alcazar, Meknes (2), a Roman temple ruin and a plan of Fes. The copper engraved portrait of the ruler Muley Ismael missing in the English edition published in 1725. - Gay 1294; Paulitschke 692; Play Fair 342: Cox I, 370 (English edition); Kainbacher 454 ("very rare"). Tags: Morocco, Fez, Meknes European slaves in the Moroccan slave market
you think they can play me out with Uber-ism???
lioness productions, putting it all in context
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You can't base a theory off of one or two photos You would have to coordinate Khoisan DNA with Moroccan DNA and that is not going to match well
Taroudant is a Moroccan city located in the Sous Valley in the southern part of the country.
The town was occupied by the Almoravids in 1056.
Under the Saadi Dynasty Taroudant had its golden age, particularly under the reign of Mohammed ash-Sheikh. (1549–1554, 1554–1557) He was particularly successful in expelling the Portuguese from most of their bases in Morocco. He also eliminated the Wattasids and resisted the Ottomans, thereby establishing a complete rule over Morocco.
In 1687 Sultan Moulay Ismail massacred much of the population for its support to his nephew, Ahmed Ben Mahriz
So, you're saying that the facial traits are due to the Ottomans? Rather then due to indigenous African populations, who have migrated there thousands upon thousands of years before.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
So, you're saying that the facial traits are due to the Ottomans?
Please, I didn't say anything about facial traits are due to the Ottomans
People, this is complete fabrication
If you have anything to say about what I said, quote the exact sentence I said something
----not ten pages of what I said
Moulay Ismail was not an Ottoman, I think he claimed Arab descent, I'll have to check it again
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Morocco’s Royal Family are descendants of the Alaouite Dynasty, which has been ruling since 1631 when its founder, Moulay Ali Cherif, became Prince of Tafilalt. At this time authority to rule the region was passed from the Saadi Dynasty to the Alaouite Dynasty, both of which are believed to be descended from the Prophet Muhammad through his daughter Fatima and her husband the 4th Caliph Ali, who was a cousin of the prophet. With common ancestry, the transfer of power from the Saadi Dynasty to the Alaouite Dynasty, while not being without conflict, had a sense of continuity, adding a strong case of legitimacy enabling the Royal Family to endure through colonial rule, a period when the country was divided between Spanish and French authorities, and subsequent independence.
Legend has it that in the 13th century inhabitants of Tafilalet persuaded Al Hassan Addakhil to move from his hometown of Yanbu in Hijaz (modern-day western Saudi Arabia) to reside in the Moroccan oasis town as the community’s imam. The reasoning behind this request was that, as a descendant of the Prophet Muhammad (saws), Al Hassan Addakhil possessed a blessing, or divine presence, which would help the community to thrive, and even have a beneficial effect on their date palm crops. The descendants of Al Hassan Addakhil prospered in the region, increasing their status and power.
Following the conquest of Marrakech by Al-Rashid and the ousting of the last sultan of the Saadi Dynasty, the Alaouite Dynasty began to take shape with Ismail Ibn Sharif as its leader. History reveals that Ismail Ibn Sharif (1672-1727) ruled the region with the military might of an army of black slaves from sub-Saharan Africa that came to be known as the ‘Black Guard’, driving the British from Tangiers in 1684, and later driving the Spanish from the harbor town of Larache. Following this dauntless leader’s death, disunity set in among Morocco’s tribes once again until Muhammad III (1757-1790) appeased the restless tribes by allowing them autonomy.
Under the leadership of Muhammad IV (1859-1873), followed by Hassan I (1873-1894), the Alaouite Dynasty promoted trade with the United States and European countries, while modernizing the army and administrative infrastructure to control Berber and Bedouin tribes. Increased contact with European countries took a turn during the war against Spain (1859-1860), with the Conference of Madrid in 1880 guaranteeing Moroccan independence. However, in two incidents which became known as the First and Second Moroccan Crisis in 1905 and 1911, Germany resisted attempts by France and then Britain to take control of Morocco. Between 1912 and 1956, Morocco was a French Protectorate, with the country obtaining its current independent status in 1956 during the rule of King Mohammed V (1955-1961). King Mohammed V was followed by King Hassan II (1961-1999), with King Mohammed VI being the current head of Morocco’s Royal Family, thereby continuing the lineage of the Alaouite Dynasty in Morocco.
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
So, you're saying that the facial traits are due to the Ottomans?
Please, I didn't say anything about facial traits are due to the Ottomans
People, this is complete fabrication
If you have anything to say about what I said, quote the exact sentence I said something
----not ten pages of what I said
Moulay Ismail was not an Ottoman, I think he claimed Arab descent, I'll have to check it again
It was a question, hence the question mark (?), not a statement or claim. Nor a theory or hypothesis.
It was not clear what you actually meant saying. Just like in the post, right above. It's not clear what it has to do with the Augrinacian culture, Grimaldi and defining of major clades A1b, A1a and A2-T.
Because at the same time you've been trying to dispel Clyde. By saying that there is no relation between older African populations and the Berbers. How else is one to interpret you then? It's either the one or the other, right?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: [
Because at the same time you've been trying to dispel Clyde. By saying that there is no relation between older African populations and the Berbers. How else is one to interpret you then? It either the one or the other, right?
I have not been saying to Clyde in this thread there is no relation between older African populations and the Berbers.
He is claiming a very specific and unique population, Khoisans were the original occupants of North Africa.
That is what I'm addressing. Khoisans relation or lack theorof to North Africa I see some possibilities in the connection, I haven't looked closely yet but I don't you can parallel the African components of berber DNA to Khoisans Right off the bat Khoisans don't carry significant frequencies of E-M81, U, On the Khosian side also have some A and B standouts ( and other E clades) which don't parellel berbers
This is not to say that each doesn't have a liitle of the others DNA, I'm not sure about it, but it would be overlaps of an insignificant degree
What Clyde is saying is that bantus are less similar to the original North Africans as compared to Khosians
In fact some of what I put up supported Clyde's concept if you have been following
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
Because at the same time you've been trying to dispel Clyde. By saying that there is no relation between older African populations and the Berbers. How else is one to interpret you then? It either the one or the other, right?
I have not been syaing to Clyde in this thread there is no relation between older African populations and the Berbers.
He is claiming a very specific and unique population, Khoisans were the original occupants of North Africa.
That is what I'm addressing. Khoisans relation or lack theorof to North Africa I see some possibilities in the connection, I haven't looked closely yet but I don't you can parallel the African components of berber DNA to Khoisans Right off the bat Khoisans don't carry significant frequencies of E-M81, U, On the Khosian side also have some A and B standouts ( and other E clades) which don't parellel berbers
Have these been posted by you?
quote:
You can't base a theory off of one or two photos You would have to coordinate Khoisan DNA with Moroccan DNA and that is not going to match well
One never sees a current article stating that human remains of prehistoric hunter gatherer North Africa resemble Khoisan morphology
Of course the Khoisans don't carry E-M81, U. They do however carry the "ancient" clades, before these mutations occurred.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: What Clyde is saying is that bantus are less similar to the original North Africans as compared to Khosians
The so-called Bantus are "in general" a younger group. Then the Khoisan (Khoisan: Hz (Hadza), Sw (Sandawe), Xk (!Xun/Kxoe), San (San)). I say so because of the Bangwa people of Fontem, Lebialem, Cameroon.
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posted
If the Khosians were the early inhabitants of North Africa for that to make sense they would have to have been pushed out by the bantus or they left the region due to drying and bantus came in later
But this would have to be supported by matching the DNA and morpholgy of the green period North African populations like the Iberomaurusian and Capsian cultures to them and I have not heard of such a link
Another point of view is that the berbers are a young group not connected to the old hunter gatherers of the region and that the main African component that they have now only goes back maybe 6000 years or less. That may be the case
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: If the Khosians were the early inhabitants of North Africa for that to make sense they would have to have been pushed out by the bantus or they left the region due to drying and bantus came in later
But this would have to be supported by matching the DNA and morpholgy of the green period North African populations like the Iberomaurusian and Capsian cultures to them and I have not heard of such a link
You haven't heard of such link, that's correct.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Another point of view is that the berbers are a young group not connected to the old hunter gatherers of the region and that the main African component that they have now only goes back maybe 6000 years or less. That may be the case
Yeah, Berbers as a group are young. They however carry ancient African clades. Odd, hum?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: If the Khosians were the early inhabitants of North Africa for that to make sense they would have to have been pushed out by the bantus or they left the region due to drying and bantus came in later
But this would have to be supported by matching the DNA and morpholgy of the green period North African populations like the Iberomaurusian and Capsian cultures to them and I have not heard of such a link
Another point of view is that the berbers are a young group not connected to the old hunter gatherers of the region and that the main African component that they have now only goes back maybe 6000 years or less. That may be the case
This argument lacks any foundation. There is no evidence of Bantu migrating into North Africa.
Some elements of the Berber population are much older than 6ky. The archaeological evidence which I discussed above show the presence of homo sapiens in the area before 100kya who appear to have been Khoisan.
South African Khoi and San (SAK) dominated North Africa before other African populations and the Vandals migrated into North Africa. This is supported by Berber oral traditions.
Coon wrote:
quote:
Summary of three chapters dedicated to Africa, taken from the books The Living Races of Man (1965), Anthropology A to Z (1963) and The Races of Europe (1939), by Carleton S. Coon.
Legends persist along the fringes of the Sahara about the presence of an earlier, non-Europid people. According to the paramount chief of the Ait Atta, when their ancestors first came down from the mountains to their present winter quarters in the Dades Valley they found that region occupied by yellow-skinned people whom they conquered and reduced to the status of agricultural serfs. Later these yellow people mixed with Negro slaves, producing the present-day serfs, who are called Haratin. Many of the Haratin resemble Hottentots.
In the Fezzan in southern Libya live a people - the so-called Duwwud or Dawwada (worm-folk) - who speak Arabic, hunt jerboas, raise a few dates, and above all harvest the salt lakes, where they live, for Artemesia, a brine shrimp that multiplies in prodigious numbers. These shrimp are dried and compressed into cakes, which the Duwwud trade to Arab caravans. The Duwwud also look like Hottentots. Other partly Bushman and partly Negroid people are also to be found in the Sahara.
I would like to thank lioness for providing this excerpt. We can clearly see from this excerpt that relic Hottentot, Khoi and San populations persisted in North Africa and the Sahara up until the present.
The existence of the most ancient haplogroups in the Atlas Mountains and among the Khoisan supports the view that their has been an influx of non Khoisan people into the area in the past 20ky, but, relec Khoisan population elements remain constant in the Atlas Mountains up until today, just like East Africa. Coon maintains that the Haritan also include relic SAK population elements.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: Yeah, Berbers as a group are young. They however carry ancient African clades.
doesn't everybody ???
Perhaps not.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Don't be ridiculous. You accept the Euro looking pic of a beardless Sherifan Muslim potentate in the 17th century? That right there shows where you're coming from.
Did any Euro depicted Muslim ruler sit and pose or did Euros just make it up as seems the case in you clean shaven Ismail? BTW who was his mother?
Why did one need such drawings.
First: Some of these 17th - 19th c. artists, travellers, journalists, foreign diplomates wanted to be able to sell their books or newspaper articles and this was one of the reasons of why one created such imagery portraits. For further references see: Prof. Edward Said - On Orientalism, 1978
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^ This is supposed to be Moulay Ali Cherif (or "Muley Arsheid Zeriff") considered to have been the founder of the Alaouite Dynasty of Morocco.
He died in 1659
the artist was a Czechoslovakian named Wenceslaus Hollar his works number some 2740
The date of the print here as shown in the corner is 1670, eleven years AFTER Moulay Ali Cherif DIED and one after the artist Wenceslaus Hollar visted Tangier
In other words, it is the likeness of Muley Arsheid Zeriff is in the imagination of the artist
^^^ So to try pass this of as a reliable likeness is lying
________________________________________________
^^^ This is the very evil sadistic Moulay Ismaïl Ibn Sharif second ruler of the Moroccan Alaouite dynasty.
He died in 1727
The above illustration is from the 1726 German Edition of
A Journey to Mequinez; The Residence of the Present Emperor of Fez and Morocco. On the Occasion of Commodore Stewart’s Embassy Thither for the Redemption of the British Captives in the Year 1721.
Reise nach Mequinetz, Der Residentz des heutigen Käysers von Fetz und ... By John Windus 1726
Windus was a member of the British delegation, and was sent in 1721 by King George I to the court of the Moroccan ruler Mulai Ismael, to conclude a peace treaty and to rid the English slave. Morocco, heavily involved in the piracy of the North African states towards the Europeans, held at that time caught about 1,100 Christians. Stuart was able to sign a contract in Ceuta, whereupon 296 Englishmen (including 25 captains) have been released. - This book is one of the first travel works that report exclusively on Morocco, with interesting observations about the country and people, life at court, etc. - "No work on Marocco had hitherto Appeared in English, with the exception of the meager, West Barbary '(1671) of L. Addison The description of the manners of the people renders the book, a curiosity ',. pronounced as it what by Boswell "(Cox). - The partly folded several times copper with great views of Tetuan, Alcazar, Meknes (2), a Roman temple ruin and a plan of Fes. The copper engraved portrait of the ruler Muley Ismael missing in the English edition published in 1725. - Gay 1294; Paulitschke 692; Play Fair 342: Cox I, 370 (English edition); Kainbacher 454 ("very rare"). Tags: Morocco, Fez, Meknes European slaves in the Moroccan slave market
you think they can play me out with Uber-ism???
Lyin'Ass phuckuptions, putting it all in EUROCENTRIC context
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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^ Clyde, this Libyan Tuareg looks quite different from the Khoisans. While most Khoisan are mixed with bantu the above Khoisan men don't look bantu Perhaps the above Libyan Tuareg has roots more south like in Mali or Niger which is also part of the Tuareg territory
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Don't be ridiculous. You accept the Euro looking pic of a beardless Sherifan Muslim potentate in the 17th century? That right there shows where you're coming from.
Did any Euro depicted Muslim ruler sit and pose or did Euros just make it up as seems the case in you clean shaven Ismail? BTW who was his mother?
Why did one need such drawings.
First: Some of these 17th - 19th c. artists, travellers, journalists, foreign diplomates wanted to be able to sell their books or newspaper articles and this was one of the reasons of why one created such imagery portraits. For further references see: Prof. Edward Said - On Orientalism, 1978
Lyin'Ass phuckuptions, putting it all in EUROCENTRIC context
This was fruitful information.
It's basically the same as they tried to do with Mansa Musa.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Yes, he who controls the images whether verbal or artistic controls the minds of the viewer under the principle that a constantly repeated lie is tantamount to the truth even though not factual an okey doke audience will drink it down like poison kool ade.
And remember how PussyPuss tried to boost that fake butt book cover theft of Gonga Musa's ethnic identity as authentic?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Well, if it weren't you it was worthy of you PP i thought you'd be proud to get the blame er um uh receive the credits!
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There are two maps showing the Malian Emperor Mansa Musa receiving the Moorish Ambassador in trader. **The difference is in one map the Moor is white in the other the Moor is black.** The Malian Emperor is wearing a yellow robe in one map and a blue robe in the other.
The white-washing of North African rulers and entire peoples is a common M.O. of the lyinass.
Lyinass productions flushed down the toilet. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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For people who may be mislead by the trolls trying to instigate who don't know the history of these maps The above map (both images above are the same map) was made in 1375 by Abraham Cresques. As shown this map appears on the cover of Malian scholar Gaoussou Diawara's book, Abubakari II .
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The below map is a copy of a copy of the above map made 38 years later in 1413 by Mecia de Viladestes Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
For in depth coverage of those maps depicting Mansa Gongo Musa and other famous figures see 3 Jews' maps and My take on the possibility of Abu Bakr II reaching the Americashere and from here on to page 2.
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