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Originally posted by Bastet*Loves*Ptah:
Want to know his true intentions? Suggest that you will marry him (if he asks) and live with him in Egypt. Tell him you have no money and he could support you both but that you are not willing to live with him in your own country.

The fact that he works in a resort/hotel is a big red flag, not always but usually. You are not the first he has probably spoken with, as he has said, and you may look good/younger for your age but there are others who are younger and probably prettier, so you must ask yourself 'why me?'.
He was just a diamond in the rough waiting to be discovered by you?

Take it slowly, try to find out more about him and see if next time he can reimburse you for your airfare. You are spending money to come and visit him and if he wants to see you he will fund that.

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That is the best advice one can find on ES!

Posts: 998 | From: UK,Egypt,east and central africa..... | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by advocate:
What I cannot understand about the ES forum is how can a woman expect a man living in Egypt to pay her airfare? I am sure if this were men from another countries they would not be expected to do so?!

As we are all aware, wages in Egypt are considerably low and the price for the airfare I know (from the uk at least is £300+) would cost approximately a month's wage, how could anyone possibly afford that and live, eat and pay their bills?

Whilst I appreciate relationships should be reciprocal, that does not neccessarily mean that men have to pay for EVERYTHING.

I feel that telling newcomers that their "loves" should pay their airfare and for everything else is being unrealistic and setting up their possible relationships to fail from the onset if they feel that their "love" does not love them enough to pay as others have appeared to do on this and other forums.

This is just my opinion.

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What is so impossible to understand? She says he has never asked her for money, he pays for things, comes from a nice place in Cairo, why not ask? If he is unable to pay for a complete ticket, why not split the cost? Believe me, the men here will prove a lot to you in what they do financially, even if it is a little that they can afford. She should ask him, see his reaction.

Posts: 412 | From: protectress of Lower Egypt | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Bastet*Loves*Ptah:
If you were dating a Western man that you knew made less money than you did, you would insist to pay for each date? Of course not, but you ladies give allowances because the man is different? If he is serious he will have no problem to help with the expense as much as he can and be honest about that. Otherwise you will see him take off really fast, and where is the harm in finding out true character early?

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Bastet i understand what you are saying but its not the same at all. A western man earning less than his date is totally different to an Egyptian man earning less than his western woman.

As I said above, in less than 1 day I earned more than my husband earned in 1 month and that was WITH his tips!! Granted it was not the best job or the best salary, but we cant choose who we fall in love with. When I was searching for work in Cairo, before I met my husband, I was shocked at the small salaries for up market jobs. I know this has increased since then but the salaries here are still nothing like those in the west.

There are many other ways to 'test' him but asking for air fare is not one. If he expects you to pay for everything once you are there and wont even put his hand in his pocket for a taxi, and takes you to fancy places expecting you to pay, then hes on the make simple as that. If he takes you to some grotty looking Egyptian eating place for the best chicken in Luxor, and pays himself, then maybe hes ok

Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by newcomer:
If they want to keep on providing for the man throughout a potential marriage, then it's no problem, as that is the expectation that is being established. But to think of it as being an investment for a possible future return, that it not the way it is seen in the eyes of an Egyptian man.

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Posts: 412 | From: protectress of Lower Egypt | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Little Sparrow:
Hi all, this is my first time to post, I have been lurking around for quite a number of months.

I am from UK, currently divorcing my husband (marriage was over before this, just not on paper).

I am 40 years old, I have 2 children from this marriage who are older.

I have money.

I can have children still.

I am not an old bag,long blonde hair,pretty, slim get asked out all the time by (far too) young english guys, look younger than my years and fit.(not trying to be conceited here by the way)

I really just want to find out a few things really, so I hope you can all give me a heads up.

Same old story really....

I have met an egyptian guy, he was working at Four Seasons when i stayed there with my friend. He was really sweet and when I said we were going to Naama for the evening I said he could meet us and show us around.

He did, he did the usual crap of your beautiful etc that they all do, (have been to sharm a few times), but there was just something about him which I trusted, and I really took to... dont know why, I just did. So I asked him to stop giving me the bullshit and be normal etc. I can be very frank with people, and he did and we got on really well, we made a pact and he swore he would be honest with me and I promised him I would, and he seems to be, even telling me stuff I dont enjoy hearing.

He is 33 just, his parents are both dead, his brother is now head of the family.They live in a nice area of Cairo. He has told me that he has had quite a few girlfriends in the past, been out with a few english girls too etc. So doesnt appear to be telling lies.

I have just come back from a weeks visit to him, he only gets off work from Four Seasons, once a month. We stayed at Marriot.... now I paid for his room as we had to get 2 rooms not together, but I spent most of time in same room. He payed for other stuff when we went out and didnt ask me for money.

We had a fantastic holiday, went on a boat to Tiran etc..... a lot of people assumed we were married for some reason, dont know why, went to fantasia and loads of other things.

It was just lovely to be with him.. he makes me feel really safe, takes so much care of me, extremely protective.

The men I meet in England are always overly gentlemanly to me, so I am used to being treated with respect. But this, it was just so lovely, he said I am like something precious that needs to be protected.(I think he meant I needed to be wrapped up like a present so other men didnt look at me hahah) He didnt even like his friends saying anything that could be slightly flirty, and quickly put them straight.

He would always have a protective arm ready for crossing roads, and carrying bags and would sometimes put an arm around my shoulder, but would be totally respectful to me at all times.

Just so many things that I fell in love with him for, I could go on forever... he was just such a lovely guy... or so it would appear.

He would like to take this further, he rings me and I ring him most days, we text and talk online and I am going back out in a few weeks for another visit. He wants to take me to cairo to meet his family, I have already spoken to his sister on the phone, very sweet. His friend has said that I am a very very nice girl and he should take very good care, or words to that effect. (which worried me a bit cos why would he say that, doesnt he ususally then???)He hasnt told his brother about me yet, but his brother wants him to marry as he is 33... plus on paper I am still married so not good. He has told his sister about me though as I said.

Now, after reading this forum... I came back to earth with a resounding thud.

I am scared that I am being duped here.. he is a bit of a gorgeous babe, but I am no trog by far. But what worries me is the money thing.

Can someone shed some light on this story and give me their opinion, but please dont call me a fat old hag for going out with younger guy(or something like that hahah)... I have always gone out with younger guys, including english ones (i know there is 7 years difference in this relationship but I dont look my age.. if that makes any difference)

I just need to know warning signs or anything that I can say or do so that I could see what his true intentions are. I believe they are trustworthy but my friends tell me to take care, he could just want money and uk pass...etc.. but you lot seem to know what you are talking about so any advice would be great.

thanks

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oh pooh! I read the others answers and answered then without reading all your post first

From one older old bag to another, the age difference between you 2 is not great and I know that many women of a more 'mature' age look better than when they were 17 like me.

I have never been to sharm but I have heard stories, not all good. the part that bothers me here is that he said he has had girlfriends before and the part about his brother wanting him married. At 33 he is a bit 'old' to be looking for a first Egyptian wife, as someone else said it could already be on the go anyway.

Sisters are not always 'sisters' and it can come out later that the sister you spoke to was in fact 'wife', so thats one to watch out for.

Go and meet the family, as many of them as you can, see how he is with them and how they are with you. You dont have enough time to learn enough Arabic so you will have to rely on instincts here.

you can read much here about Egyptian men, not all good as those with good to tell usually get ripped apart, as you will see. InshaAllah you wont regret the day you asked this question here and as I said to another newbie, make sure you have a hard hat and a bullet proof vest, and a good sense of humour

Whatever we say you will make your own mind up. You know him and we dont, so take what we say with the normal bucket of salt and just make sure you are armed well and ask the right questions at the right time. Good Luck!

Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Penny:
as the VISA hunter will happily pay up in Egypt if he thinks there is a chance of getting to a European country.
They all know how to play the games they all advise each other on how to play them.

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Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Ayisha:
Newcomer, I agree that he should be expected to 'contribute' what he can but I cannot agree he should be allowing himself to get into debt for it, yes save up IF it is possible for him to do that on his income, what if its not? Then we get back to the same thing about a man who cant 'afford' a woman and the same old thing about how much is a wife!

Not all of us are lucky enough to fall for a rich man, in whatever terms used in the particular country. Should we then tell our hearts not to love because this is a poor man? The poor are the salt of the earth in my opinion, and I would rather have a poor honest man than a rich gigolo any day! you see, most men that COULD afford to do this I would be asking where the hell he got the money from to pay for my ticket. i KNOW personally men that do this, men with lots of money who flash it when necessary and I KNOW where they get the money from too.

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Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by newcomer:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ayisha:
Newcomer, I agree that he should be expected to 'contribute' what he can but I cannot agree he should be allowing himself to get into debt for it, yes save up IF it is possible for him to do that on his income, what if its not? Then we get back to the same thing about a man who cant 'afford' a woman and the same old thing about how much is a wife!

Not all of us are lucky enough to fall for a rich man, in whatever terms used in the particular country. Should we then tell our hearts not to love because this is a poor man? The poor are the salt of the earth in my opinion, and I would rather have a poor honest man than a rich gigolo any day! you see, most men that COULD afford to do this I would be asking where the hell he got the money from to pay for my ticket. i KNOW personally men that do this, men with lots of money who flash it when necessary and I KNOW where they get the money from too.

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If the man is a poor man and a woman wants to get into a relationship with him, and if she has her eyes open to the fact that he is poor, and is likely to always be that way, and what his lifestyle really is; and if she realizes that if she comes here he wouldn't be able to support her to live in the style that she is accustomed to without her trying to find a source of income to finance it, then it is no problem for her to come here and pay all her expenses.

But if them man only has an income of as you say 500LE/$100 or less a month, and has family to support on that, a woman should be realistic about the lifestyle that he might be able to offer her and what his expectations of their married life would be. It may be romantic to live in a poor neighbourhood for a holiday or on a temporary basis, but if you are considering more than that, and you like "western luxuries" like cereal for breakfast, you have to try to be realistic.

I agree that there are many poor people who are wonderful people, but can you live with them and adopt their lifestyle, for life. Some women can, some can't...many have left Egyptian husbands precisely because it was too hard for them to adapt.

There are also many men who could afford to make a sizeable contribution, if not pay for the whole trip who wouldn't have to get their money from shady sources, not all men who have money in Egypt are gigolos!

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Posts: 919 | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Bastet*Loves*Ptah:
I agree getting to know him more, spend time with him and meet family is the best choice.

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Posts: 919 | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Almaz.:

quote:

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Originally posted by newcomer:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ayisha:
Newcomer, I agree that he should be expected to 'contribute' what he can but I cannot agree he should be allowing himself to get into debt for it, yes save up IF it is possible for him to do that on his income, what if its not? Then we get back to the same thing about a man who cant 'afford' a woman and the same old thing about how much is a wife!

Not all of us are lucky enough to fall for a rich man, in whatever terms used in the particular country. Should we then tell our hearts not to love because this is a poor man? The poor are the salt of the earth in my opinion, and I would rather have a poor honest man than a rich gigolo any day! you see, most men that COULD afford to do this I would be asking where the hell he got the money from to pay for my ticket. i KNOW personally men that do this, men with lots of money who flash it when necessary and I KNOW where they get the money from too.

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If the man is a poor man and a woman wants to get into a relationship with him, and if she has her eyes open to the fact that he is poor, and is likely to always be that way, and what his lifestyle really is; and if she realizes that if she comes here he wouldn't be able to support her to live in the style that she is accustomed to without her trying to find a source of income to finance it, then it is no problem for her to come here and pay all her expenses.

But if them man only has an income of as you say 500LE/$100 or less a month, and has family to support on that, a woman should be realistic about the lifestyle that he might be able to offer her and what his expectations of their married life would be. It may be romantic to live in a poor neighbourhood for a holiday or on a temporary basis, but if you are considering more than that, and you like "western luxuries" like cereal for breakfast, you have to try to be realistic.

I agree that there are many poor people who are wonderful people, but can you live with them and adopt their lifestyle, for life. Some women can, some can't...many have left Egyptian husbands precisely because it was too hard for them to adapt.

There are also many men who could afford to make a sizeable contribution, if not pay for the whole trip who wouldn't have to get their money from shady sources, not all men who have money in Egypt are gigolos!

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This is a very fair answer. If you know 'everything' you should know about this man and still want to be with him then go ahead.

But I would reverse the situation to this:

Imagine this man to be from your nationality, in your country with a low pay - with the same family, social and financial situation as this one, what would you do?

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exactly the same almaz.

Egyptian men are not the bees knees, they are not anything different, they are not from a different planet. If I met a man in UK who was of lower income than me it would make no difference to how i felt about him.

Newcomer, I know all Egyptian men with a high income are not gigolos but most who work in the beach places do have a tendency to be that as the opportunity is there on a plate most of the time.

Of course any woman who intends to live here has to look at many things before moving here, like accommodation and living costs. Not all westerners can do it and not all Egyptians will be happy in another country either. Joining the 2 cultures is an uphill struggle no matter how much in love you are, it takes a lot of thinking, talking and preparation, but it can be done, both ways.

I know one lady who lived here over 5 years, brushing scorpions off her clothes every morning before going to work for a pittance, her husband did his best to support her and they had nothing. They eventually went to UK and made a bit of a living and come back regularly to oversee the building of their home here in Luxor. They have 2 beautiful children Alhamdulillah and she is much older than him. She stuck it because she loves him and they will return to live here. He has adjusted to UK life and now thinks people are crazy here, he sees now what we as foreigners see and it hurts him. This is a couple who have tried both cultures and are still together, and she knows she can survive here on nothing as she has done it. She had no money when she came and lived in the family home with him.

I know another woman who has been here 17 years, she has lived in the most poor living accommodation and has known hunger many times, she is still here and will always be here as she loves her husband, she is also a second wife. She has done everything she can to help him and raise the living status of the family and its paid off, if she had less about her she would have given up years ago.

It takes all sorts to make a world go round my mum used to say, its true. Not everyone can live as another lives out of necessity. For a western woman to choose to live here and be supported by her husband on a low income, she would have to be very adaptable, but there are very few who would do it and not want to help or contribute in any way as we are not made that way. For us to take on a different culture means also that the man in question has to take on some of ours. An Egyptian man cannot marry a western woman and expect her to adapt without him adapting also.

Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Bastet*Loves*Ptah:
Good luck LS.

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Ditto

I can see your picture.

Posts: 919 | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Almaz.:
Great examples Ayisha!
Out of love people accomplish beautiful things.

I also know many wealthy Egyptian families that upgrade the life of many poor Egyptian families, and when I say upgrade I mean a real change, giving work to the head of the family with a very good salary, buying the family clothes all year round, giving them good furniture, sometimes a small piece of land, and taking care of all the financial issues when there is a marriage, a birth, sickness/surgery etc...

I also know of very wealthy Egyptian men - who are definitely not gigolos - marrying very poor girls/women and upgrading their status tremendously out of love too.

It is also known that many people that are given a great opportunity can be very successful, but others can be very abusive and will not use the good opportunity in the correct way. It is a risk.

The lady you mentioned is remarkable to have been a second wife and lived a life of struggle. We do have many good Egyptian women that would stand by their men in richer and in poorer, and struggle till they all see the light, but most would not be the second wives. Second wives that are Egyptian , are known to be the 'spoiled' the 'younger' the 'secret affair' the more 'lusty' side of things.

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Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Little Sparrow:
haha yes bastet i can see your pretty kitty..

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Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Ayisha:

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Originally posted by Almaz.:
Great examples Ayisha!
Out of love people accomplish beautiful things.

I also know many wealthy Egyptian families that upgrade the life of many poor Egyptian families, and when I say upgrade I mean a real change, giving work to the head of the family with a very good salary, buying the family clothes all year round, giving them good furniture, sometimes a small piece of land, and taking care of all the financial issues when there is a marriage, a birth, sickness/surgery etc...

I also know of very wealthy Egyptian men - who are definitely not gigolos - marrying very poor girls/women and upgrading their status tremendously out of love too.

It is also known that many people that are given a great opportunity can be very successful, but others can be very abusive and will not use the good opportunity in the correct way. It is a risk.

The lady you mentioned is remarkable to have been a second wife and lived a life of struggle. We do have many good Egyptian women that would stand by their men in richer and in poorer, and struggle till they all see the light, but most would not be the second wives. Second wives that are Egyptian , are known to be the 'spoiled' the 'younger' the 'secret affair' the more 'lusty' side of things.

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This lady is an older British lady but they now are doing very well. Their business supports many many families and they certainly help out many many more needy families apart from those that work for them. Both wives are great friends and the children have 2 mums who they love the same. The English wife has made sure all the children are fluent in English and is making sure they get the chance of uni too, in fact the 2 elder ones are at Uni already and inshaAllah the next one will be soon. She loves them like her own and they all live in the same house too. This family is an exception I know, but a great one and a wonderful example to us all.

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Posts: 919 | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by advocate:
i'm sorry but I couldn't bring myself to ask any man for anything, especially for money for me to come and see him.

My opinion although aknowledge not shared by all.

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I think the same as you,Advocate,

Even if the guy lives in what is called a nice place in Cairo,what could be considered "good" salary there is only by Egypt standards that is wayyyy,wayyyy different than Western standards.
To rephrase is:"good" earnings or salary in Egypt is less than the minimum wage for us in America or Europe.

Posts: 3833 | From: here,there,everywhere | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Bastet*Loves*Ptah:
Can you see mine??! MEOW

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Posts: 3833 | From: here,there,everywhere | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by kentuckygirl9:
Do these men have Id cards that show whether they are married or not? If so, get him to show you his ID card. Find out how to read it first ofcourse or have another egyptian friend read it.Atleast you will know if he is married or not. Your not that much older than him really in age. I hope it works out for the best.

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Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged |