quote:Originally posted by LMK2010: Hello everyone!
Firstly, I am sorry if I offend anyone with this poll.
I recently married an egyptian man, whom I love with all my heart and cant see myself ever being without. He is Muslim. And I am Christian. Before getting married and throughout our relationship, I never thought about religion, it has been in my life, but never been a priority of mine to follow it, and therefore the fact that he is muslim never mattered to me. At the end of the day, we are both human, and we fell in love, what does religion have to do with it?!
However, I have now learned that I am pregnant. I dont want my children, specifically if I have a girl, to be muslim. Im having a hard time trying to convince my husband that the best thing to do is wait until they are old enough to understand religion, and let our child/children choose for themselves. I am very fond of this recent campaign: http://www.humanism.org.uk/billboards
My husband is currently applying for a settlement visa to the UK. My child will be raised in England. I dont want my child to miss out on opportunities due to religion.
Does anyone have any advice or any experience on this subject?? Please help, my head is in pieces.
My husband is now saying if my child is not raised muslim, then he will reject it, and is telling me i should have an abortion instead. Im confused. I would literally do anything for him, even though i shouldnt, but when it comes to this, im not so sure i can change my mind.
Thanks
LMK2010
Dear Lady, Actually I don't write here alot but this issue attracted me to write and may be I couldn't even reply again. First I would like to tell u not to be deceived and take a decision based on all the previous replies - with respect - as most of them come from women from ur culture and way of thinking, simply u can consider thm all as one viewpoint.
Well, the issue to u is a viewpoint but to ur husband it's a Belief. to him it's the same as u ask him not to be muslim, something like his asking to u to convert to Islam or leave him so u have to excuse him. To us mulim men if our kids are not muslim it's a great sin that will be with u even after death...better for u to avoid any meaningless argument, do what ur husband likes and be sure the principles of christianity and Islam are almost the same and the kid being muslim doesn't contradict with his ability to choose when he is growing up. Also I dare say ur husband loves u alot since he insists on this situation. Please consider a viewpoint coming from an egyptian man like ur husband...do what he likes once and he will do what u like alot of times... I'm sure alot here will attack me but I just care for ur family happiness. Good luck
Posts: 206 | From: Egypt | Registered: Jun 2005
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Not respecting your wife's faiths and beliefs and putting your own first is a sign of love... wow!
Who the hell died and made him more important anyway?
Blackmailing you into forcing you to do something you don't wish to do is not love, and it is not Islam either. It is manipulation from a bully.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by 54321: Also I dare say ur husband loves u alot since he insists on this situation.
Telling a woman to kill an unborn child is a sign of love? Wow!
No, didn't mean this...I meant his insist on letting his baby a muslim like him means he wants to stay all his life with her.
Posts: 206 | From: Egypt | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: Not respecting your wife's faiths and beliefs and putting your own first is a sign of love... wow!
Who the hell died and made him more important anyway?
Blackmailing you into forcing you to do something you don't wish to do is not love, and it is not Islam either. It is manipulation from a bully.
Here's the point of the clash..as I mentioned it has nothing to do with forcing others or respect it's the religious belief, a complicated issue for us may be u never understand it. By the way I'm a liberal Egyptian man but there are some points that can't be negotible like this.
Posts: 206 | From: Egypt | Registered: Jun 2005
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He told her she either does as he wishes or he will reject the baby. He even mentioned abortion to her... the poor girl!
I would cancel the Visa application and tell him to jog on!
I understand it perfectly well thank you very much 54321, she does not want her baby, who will be brought up n a Christian country to be a Muslim. It is quite an easy and plausible concept.
You are not that liberal if you cannot see this from her point of view as well... she wants what she feels best for her child as well... she is fighting for her babies beliefs, he is fighting for his own. selfish! The best interest of the baby should come first.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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When it comes to Western women moving to Egypt and not understanding the culture we tell them to study, learn and familiarise themselves with the culture and religion.
This guy is moving to England to be with a Westerner and should have the decency to learn about our culture and religion and bloody well respect it.
If she were coming here it would be different, but he is the one here who needs to gather a little understanding.
OP... children always come first on the priority list.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: Not respecting your wife's faiths and beliefs and putting your own first is a sign of love... wow!
Who the hell died and made him more important anyway?
Blackmailing you into forcing you to do something you don't wish to do is not love, and it is not Islam either. It is manipulation from a bully.
Here's the point of the clash..as I mentioned it has nothing to do with forcing others or respect it's the religious belief, a complicated issue for us may be u never understand it. By the way I'm a liberal Egyptian man but there are some points that can't be negotible like this.
This is a fantastic example for all of you ladies out there that claim you are dating LIBERAL, OPEN MINDED egyptian men.
How they define liberal thinking is NOT how you define it.
Posts: 2182 | Registered: Oct 2002
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Exactly. They compare themselves to the average Egyptian and believe because they date, party, use an IPod, mingle with Westerners etc. they are being open-minded and liberal. That has nothing to do with how we define those terms from a Western, or humanistic, perspective.
There are liberal, open-minded Egyptian men out there, I know some of them. But they never boast about being liberal or open-minded, they just practise it. Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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Whether open minded or not a Muslim man is NOT going to accept his child being brought up as a non Muslim. Therefore if you can't accept this then don't marry one if you are planning a family.
I would put my husband in the open minded liberal bracket but had we met at an age where we wanted to have children then I know 100% for sure he would not have accepted them to be born anything but Muslim. Thankfully we met after having our kids so its not a problem. His are Muslim, mine is well....really not sure LOL...still in formation Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Penny: a Muslim man is NOT going to accept his child being brought up as a non Muslim.
I know some who had no issue with that.
Then the man has become 'Murtid' and denied Islam, so is not a practicing Muslim. That must be a hard thing for him to live with.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: I believe it is not up to you or me to judge someone's faith based on such a thing.
I am simply stating Sharia Law. I am not interested in judging anyone's religion. As we all know people choose to practice their religion to different degrees.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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If scholars, lawyers, or whoever decide someone is "denying Islam" because he doesn't force it on his child, then they are playing God ... which is not up to them.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: Sharia law is man-made.
If scholars, lawyers, or whoever decide someone is "denying Islam" because he doesn't force it on his child, then they are playing God ... which is not up to them.
Sharia Law is the God- made not a man made and that's why I told the lady who has the problem that all of u represent one viewpoint which is a christian western woman while I represent the other bank of the river, a muslim egyptian man and that's why I found it difficult for me to marry a western christian woman only because of the children issue.
Posts: 206 | From: Egypt | Registered: Jun 2005
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A child born to a Roman Catholic or Jewish WOMAN is automatically, non-negotiably, under the laws of those God-given faiths, RC or Jewish.
Which 'God Given Faith' wins?
Why can't people just teach people about the different faiths and let them CHOOSE when they are old enough to do so?
Posts: 5593 | From: Egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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54321... you have to accept that not all of us believe in God and we do believe that Sharia is for the good of anybody (underage sex is my e.g.)... we do not believe in the 10 commandments nor do we believe in heaven or hell... we simply believe in nothing.
So why should a Western women enforce a religion upon her child if they think all religion is a myth!
If the OP is non - religious she is going against all she believes, if she is a Christian then still, she has to teach her child a faith she does not believe in.
Liberal Egyptians would not even have this conversation.
You are taking away her rights.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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I don't know if this counts for the whole Western world, but in my country it is still this way that parents are giving a child a religion by birth. The number of new born children with such a inherited religion is getting less, not every new born child is getting baptised anymore. It is the result of people getting more aware of what they actually are doing: forcing a religion into somebodies life. Religion is a belief, and believes cannot be forced. From the other side;if somebody doesn't hear or learn from other religions then he/she will automatically asume that their religion is the one and only truth...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: Sharia law is man-made.
If scholars, lawyers, or whoever decide someone is "denying Islam" because he doesn't force it on his child, then they are playing God ... which is not up to them.
Sharia Law is the God- made not a man made and that's why I told the lady who has the problem that all of u represent one viewpoint which is a christian western woman while I represent the other bank of the river, a muslim egyptian man and that's why I found it difficult for me to marry a western christian woman only because of the children issue.
Bless you for your clear thinking 54321.
The OP husband is not wrong in his religion but totally wrong to have not discussed and considered this with his wife before making the commitment to start a family. He knew this was non- negotiable for him but he should have considered his wife's views as well.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: 54321... you have to accept that not all of us believe in God and we do believe that Sharia is for the good of anybody (underage sex is my e.g.)... we do not believe in the 10 commandments nor do we believe in heaven or hell... we simply believe in nothing.
So why should a Western women enforce a religion upon her child if they think all religion is a myth!
If the OP is non - religious she is going against all she believes, if she is a Christian then still, she has to teach her child a faith she does not believe in.
Liberal Egyptians would not even have this conversation.
You are taking away her rights.
Ladies you have to see the other side as well just because you are not Muslim or do not have a religious faith does not mean the other party is wrong in their beliefs.
This is not about whether a man is Liberal. To me a Liberal Muslim man would be one whose children are born Muslim but accepts that they also grow up learning about the wife's faith and celebrate her religious festivals as well. A Liberal man will accept his wife's freedoms, working, etc and likewise his children. Some things in his faith you can't ask him to change as you are asking him to go against God. If a women can't accept that and its fundamentally not right for her then she just should not be marrying a Muslim man.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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I agree, neither are right and neither are wrong. My point is she should have an equal say to the babies religion and not be told it is either his way or no way!!!
54321 thinks she should play docile, kiss his ass and forget what she wants simply to make him happy... I hate that mentality!!! This belittles her so much.
A liberal man would be open to taking on new concepts and compromising. Not bullying and using Islam as a tool to get his own way!
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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I have a solution... if we are all patronisingly all born Muslim then this child is already labelled. Simply call him / her a Christian as it really doesn't matter to anyone as it is FACT we are all born Muslim anyway.
I fail to even see why the Father is even getting so upset if it as an automatic thing anyway!!!
Wow... I solved the issue.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by 54321: Sharia Law is the God- made not a man made and that's why I told the lady who has the problem that all of u represent one viewpoint which is a christian western woman while I represent the other bank of the river, a muslim egyptian man and that's why I found it difficult for me to marry a western christian woman only because of the children issue.
Naturally I disagree - or not. God made the Law and HE will punish or reward according to the Law in Quran, the 'sharia Law' you speak of is man made or how do you reconcile this with 'there is no compulsion in religion'? The whole 'sharia Law' thing is based on force or be punished (by man) and leaves no room for the freedom of choice God gave in Quran.
A child raised as a Muslim doesnt necessarily 'follow' Islam with his heart and according to some sharia law will be killed for leaving Islam later when he sees the hypocrisy that man made in Islam, again that is against what God said. A child of Christian mother and Muslim father should be educated in both beliefs as the books of each are the ONE. Raised in an open and loving environment he will develop the skills to find his own way among a middle ground of the 2. If this were not the case God wouldnt allow a Muslim to marry a Christian. Islam cannot be forced, by insisting the child is 'raised a Muslim' and has nothing to do with his mothers belief IS force, especially when he finds that man made sharia says he will be killed if he leaves.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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This man wants to abort the child if its not raised Muslim? He wants to KILL his unborn child? Why not wait and see if its a girl then he can go and bury the poor thing alive somewhere like his hypocrite ancestors!
You think THAT is a Muslim? God help us!
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Oh yeah Ayisha, he wants the baby dead if his wife will not obey his command!!!
You, I and several others have hit the nail on the head a few times. Education, education, education... this child should be brought up to understand both parents beliefs, the child should be able to make a choice in life. Nobody should have such self importance to impose their beliefs on others like that.
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: Oh yeah Ayisha, he wants the baby dead if his wife will not obey his command!!!
HUREYA
I would dump the bastard like a hot potato! That is not a muslim wanting the best for his child and his family, that is a controlling, insecure, hypocritical animal.
DUMP HIM, have your baby and be happy.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: I just read back a bit.
You think THAT is a Muslim? God help us!
It says an awful lot about the sort of Islam that is being taught in Egypt today and that is worrying.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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Maybe with the job losses in the Gulf and especially Saudi, some views may moderate again.
An Egyptian friend of mine - non veil-wearing muslim in her 30s - tells me her friends are beginning to remove the veil.
(I'm using the word 'veil' deliberately rather than hijab given that the h word is open to substantial interpretation!)
Posts: 5593 | From: Egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by 54321: all of u represent one viewpoint which is a christian western woman
I'm not a Christian Western woman.
quote:Originally posted by Shanta Qadeama: An Egyptian friend of mine - non veil-wearing muslim in her 30s - tells me her friends are beginning to remove the veil.
posted
Actually, I am not a Christian Western woman either!
Dalia, I like the quote in that article stating although Dina had become unveiled she still behaves within the boundaries of decency.
I also like how her pious religious husband who strenghtened her commitment to being veiled and wearing black was actually having affairs behind her back lol... good article.
Having a label is just that, it is how you act and behave that denotes how good a person you are in my opinion, not by what religion you follow or clothes you wear.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: Sharia law is man-made.
If scholars, lawyers, or whoever decide someone is "denying Islam" because he doesn't force it on his child, then they are playing God ... which is not up to them.
Sharia Law is the God- made not a man made and that's why I told the lady who has the problem that all of u represent one viewpoint which is a christian western woman while I represent the other bank of the river, a muslim egyptian man and that's why I found it difficult for me to marry a western christian woman only because of the children issue.
Bless you for your clear thinking 54321.
The OP husband is not wrong in his religion but totally wrong to have not discussed and considered this with his wife before making the commitment to start a family. He knew this was non- negotiable for him but he should have considered his wife's views as well.
Completely agree with this post and the one following it Penny. Ladies, I think we made the picture clear for that lady, so please stop debating here not to cause her a chaos in thinking and let her study her problem from all sides and takes the decision she thinks right.
Posts: 206 | From: Egypt | Registered: Jun 2005
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Also found these two comments from the girls very interesting, even if nothing to do with this thread.
“Some people use the veil only as a defense against harassment,” she continued. “When you take it off you learn how to develop the self-confidence necessary to defend yourself.”
“Veiled women were perceived unassuming and tended to accept being pushed to the sidelines. Many times I tried to come to the forefront to discuss things but was brushed aside because I was veiled. People assume that a muhajaba (veiled woman) should remain silent."
Maybe it will be the women of Egypt that will make the move away from the domineering type of Islam that has been coming from Saudi. It certainly wasn't what their mothers grew up with and the families seem supportive in many of the cases where the girls decided to remove the veil.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: Actually, I am not a Christian Western woman either!
Neither is Ayisha, as the poster could have gathered from her name if he had taken the time to think before posting. Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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I've decided all babies a born scientologists... prove me wrong folk, prove me wrong
Happybunny- I asked Sam about sleepovers and he had the same view as your husband. However, I would say that is more because of culture than religion. Of course there will be many things in the future that will pop up, that we never thought of talking about (such as sleepovers), but we just have to hope to be able to find a solution each time. So far, Sam has never said his son is a muslim. And we have tried to talk through all possible problems we might have. It is a running joke with us now, every time I think of something new, I start off "Out of curiosity..." (the most recent one was asking what his views are of either son or perhaps one day future daughter going away and staying on campus at uni, he was fine with that). Obviously we have a bigger struggle than most. If I was Christian, then things would be easier in the future (Zain is too young for any problems yet to arise). When Sam read this thread he couldn't understand the problem the guy was having. He said: "Christianity, like Islam, is a step to god, so what is the issue?"
-------------------- Another one.... Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: Sharia law is man-made.
If scholars, lawyers, or whoever decide someone is "denying Islam" because he doesn't force it on his child, then they are playing God ... which is not up to them.
Sharia Law is the God- made not a man made and that's why I told the lady who has the problem that all of u represent one viewpoint which is a christian western woman while I represent the other bank of the river, a muslim egyptian man and that's why I found it difficult for me to marry a western christian woman only because of the children issue.
Bless you for your clear thinking 54321.
The OP husband is not wrong in his religion but totally wrong to have not discussed and considered this with his wife before making the commitment to start a family. He knew this was non- negotiable for him but he should have considered his wife's views as well.
Completely agree with this post and the one following it Penny. Ladies, I think we made the picture clear for that lady, so please stop debating here not to cause her a chaos in thinking and let her study her problem from all sides and takes the decision she thinks right.
I see you managed to overlook my post replying to yours Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Just a thought....I'm wondering if 54321 is a friend of LMK's hubby, he who "loves his wife so much and is intending on staying with her for a long time because he is insistent on this issue".
Oh Please!!!
I'm thinking that after he has his residency papers from the UK Government he won't be seen for dust. And she will still be left holding the baby.
Posts: 53 | From: What goes around, comes around | Registered: Mar 2009
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That is so pleasing to hear that veiled women and young girls are now starting to take off such veil, or coverings. A woman's hair or foot(a Muslim woman I know not only wears the hijab, but also wears shoes at all times as it is apparently a sin in Islam to bare one's feet to the public. Hmmm...very Taliban, no?) can hardly be a visual source of sexual excitement(compared to the obvious) for a bald man like myself, but I do think she is more presentable without all that covering. It makes it easier to deal with people of whatever background or status without the issue or presence of the hijab. As somebody had indicated already, it is assumed that women with hijab will keep silent as they are pushed aside by the men who are obviously/apparently the decision-makers in everything....decision-makers as such, if I hear rightly from Muslims I have spoken to in the past
For quite some time now, I have noticed that many a Westerner tend to keep his/her distance when dealing with a woman with the hijab, or a man with a cap and long beard. It's as if a barrier had immediately jumped up as the two sides meet. Without the hijab and other trappings of faith, Westerners tend to relax a little more. The mentality from the Western side is that either physical violence may take place, if not a court case citing supposed discrimination..if one is not careful with his/her words
Posts: 62 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2010
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Lately I have been thinking about arms (which kind of tells you the exciting thoughts I have nowadays)... In england, if you asked a thousand men and women to list their top five most attractive feature of the opposite sex, you will find arms will rarely appear on the mens' list, but plenty of times on the womens. Now, I know this is kind of of going off topic, but is sort of related to the hijab issue. Why in islam is it women who have to cover up their arms, and not men? Women are very much attracted to a mans arms (muscular, cuddly, etc), men not so much (unless they were brought up in a country where they are taught any flesh should get your loins going). Anyway, that has just been bugging me.
-------------------- Another one.... Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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I think eyes can be an attractive part of man or woman. You see hijabi girls here with eyes done up to stand out more and I have even seen niqabi women with the eyes all done up too
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by weirdkitty: I've decided all babies a born scientologists... prove me wrong folk, prove me wrong
You are wrong! All babies are born Jehovah's Witnesses.
mine werent. they were born free. free to think and be what they choose to be as they get older.my son has no religion nor does my daughter lytina. now as for shawna well she is a holy roller. doesnt like people cussing nor talking about sex etc..she swears she is staying a virgin till she is married/ good for her.
Posts: 9776 | From: You like If only mosquitoes sucked fat instead of blood. | Registered: Jul 2007
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An Indonesian woman I knew told me once of hijab-clad women and young girls in the capital city Djakarta who stuck their thumbs out from the side of the road asking to be picked up by anyone...for a lift maybe? Or something else?
In my neighborhood, I just can't seem to understand what it is with SOME women of the various local Islamic communities(Turkish, Arabic, eastern European, Asian, etc) concerning their covered heads. Doesn't the Qur'an state specifically that a woman must cover her breasts? Well, a lot of our local Muslim women and young girls wear tight tops which show the full outline of their breasts quite clearly(the larger the breasts, then the more obvious....right to the details of the nipples). The Albanians cover their hair but their legs are bare from the knees down, and their arms are fully exposed. A lot of the others wear clothing so tight and revealing that nothing is left to anyone's imagination...but the hair is covered, so everything is ok, yes?
I've also had young girls state to me well and clearly that the hijab that they wear is to show that they are Muslims....but none had ever come across as regular readers of the holy Qur'an
Posts: 62 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2010
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..Yes...that's what I believe..I believe that we are all born to make love, not war... ...so let's just make love, yes?
Posts: 62 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2010
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