posted
So all the Muslims out there who have married westerners who aren't virgins are condoning their sins.
Isn't that aiding and abetting?
What I find amusing is just how quickly people will marry just for sex and think that their God will see this as ok. It may be a loop hole in the holy book but it is just as immoral as sex before marriage in my eyes.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
For whom who wants to have sex before marriage, I tell you that you are free to do that and do not feel guilty after you did that and do not ever think about your relationship with him will be last forever or not, and why should you wonder about that when your self even do not care that you are married with him or not.
For moslem (read: good moslem who commits to the Islam rule), choose partner who will bring you to jannah and not to the hell. If you do not have "ijab kabul" (nikah) for having sex, so what is the significance different between you and animals???
Posts: 756 | From: ...be solution... | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
What is the difference between having sex before marriage and the relationship failing or, getting married, having sex and the marriage failing!!!
Not everybody who has sex before marriage is just looking for an evening of fun... some may be looking for life partners. And if a guy can dis-respect a girl for having sex before marriage then to be fair he is dis-respecting himself as it takes two to tango.
If a guy wanted to marry me within a week of meeting him I know I would be concerned it was just sex he was after. At least those of us who choose not to marry aren't being led up any garden path!!!
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
What I do find interesting is the amount of people opposed to sex before marriage are immediately assuming there is sex with different partners every night and there is no feeling or love involved! Some see having sex before marriage as being no different to animals where im sorry but that is NOT the case in 99.999% of the people and I find that very insulting.
Waiting until marriage does NOT guarantee a long and happy marriage!! Waiting until marriage does NOT guarantee it will all be wonderful on the night, ask MANY Egyptian circumcized virgins, especially the ones that ended up in hospital trying to stop the bleeding!
There are MANY people having sex before marriage who are in loving and committed relationships that last LONGER than most wait until we're married religious ones.
Some people should stop judging what they know nothing about and assuming that all those who wait will live happily ever after, that is NOT the case or there wouldnt be so many marriages ending within 2 months.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
My point exactly Ayisha. I was with my ex for 11 years and we never married. I have had knickers longer than some people have been married for...
Some women also actually can wait months before they have sex with their man outside of a marriage, I know of dozens of Egyptians who have married his lady within the first month just so he can have sex with her. Some times these women are being duped as she really is just a piece of meat in his eyes, but hey... as long as the guy thinks he is being honorable and it is all above board then what does it matter?
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think one of the headlines in a succesful relationship is respect each other. If one of the partners is born and raised in the believe that it is not respectful to have sex outside a marriage, and honestly believes in that, it will be very difficult for them to meet a person, who is believing someting what's complete the opposite and at the same time respect them.
Most ladies here are defending their point out view out of their own (modern christian) principles, like the muslims are doing the same out of their islamic principles. That's not going to bring the two each other to meet at a certain point...
Issue is; the women want to be respected, while their behaviour is not respectful in this culture.
Remember, for him it will be as difficult to see this through your glasses, as it is as difficult for you to look through his'! To take western couples as an example, doesn't make sense, it is comparing apples with pears.
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
One of my main reasons for starting this topic was to look at the many relationships between muslim (or religious christians) and non muslim.
If what you say is true ????? then there would not be so many marriages between these two groups.
I have heard many western women saying that they see the fact that their partner is a virgin is good.
while i agree that its a good thing, many people do think that it is going to make a difference to the relationship itself. Are they dissapointed when they realise that in fact it doesn't?
Are there problems because the man cannot accept fully that the woman has come from a different culture where sex is permitted (even encouraged ) before marriage?
Like Ayisha Says, its not indication that the virgin man/woman will be faithful, or the relationship will last longer. My own Parents were married for 40 years, until my mum's death, yet they had previous relationships before they met.
There was a programme on TV about a growing young Christian population in America that are waiting until they marry to have sex. I will not argue, I do think there is something special about it, and its what I would want for my own children. However there was one woman who had ended up having sex with a fiancee that she didnt marry, she fell pregnant and as a result her mother rejected her, abandoned her, ten or so years later she was still getting upset about it.
Whether or not you believe sex before marriage is right or wrong, I think we need to question our perceptions and judgements surrounding it.
I actually went out with a very religious christian when i was about 19, he did not believe in sex before marriage either, we went out for about 18 months. The only thing that made it difficult staying together was because culturally i felt that this was not a 'full' relationship. I ended up ending the relationship, which was a silly thing to do. BUT when all around you are living a certain way it is very hard to stick to your guns. He was more religious than me so he had his own 'group' at church that he could relate to and his faith could keep him strong. I on the other hand had a totally different group.
To take the example away from sex for a moment and illustrate how powerful society is in shaping our thoughts. I have a friend who is Egyptian, her and her husband are raising children in the UK, the children prefer English to Arabic, they prefer England to Egypt, have non hijabi friends... How hard is it going to be when the children later face this 'sex before marriage' issue?
We need to stop judging and start understanding.
Posts: 552 | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
In a relationship, sex is one of the many subjects that play a role, but not the headrole! Even the issue that it is not an indication for faithfulness, I want to add that faithfulness isn't a guarantee for a sucesfull relationship!
It's not about the subject sex but about the subject respect.I can respect my husband because he is faithful, but at the same time I can disrespect him for hundreds of other characteristics and then my relationship won't last long.
Take a subject in mind that is very disrespectful in our point of view, and accepted in islamic culture, for instance, polygamy. And after that try to respect the man who wants to marry a woman while he already has 1, 2 or 3. That will be about the same...
You dated a religious man when you were 19, and ended it because, at that time, you didn't know what you know now. It would be a totally different decision when this should happen to you now, being something like twice as old, and hopefully twice as wise.
I hope you don't regret what happened then, because regrets are a waste fo time. You can only consider it as a learning expierence. You grew older, and became wiser. The same counts for many young man who are thinking in a way where they are raised with, but it is very well likely that their opinion will be different when they will be 40, or 50.
Maybe then they will have the maturity to see a subject through different perspectives, and as long as any person isn't able to do that ( and many women here are doing exactly the same) you can't expect to 'deserve' their respect. Not because they are bad, or stupid, or ignorant, their personality simply hasn't developed that far. I really think that it is not given to MOST of the people...
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ?????: You dated a religious man when you were 19, and ended it because, at that time, you didn't know what you know now. It would be a totally different decision when this should happen to you now, being something like twice as old, and hopefully twice as wise.
I hope you don't regret what happened then, because regrets are a waste fo time. You can only consider it as a learning expierence. You grew older, and became wiser. The same counts for many young man who are thinking in a way where they are raised with, but it is very well likely that their opinion will be different when they will be 40, or 50.
What do you mean twice as old!!! I'm only 25 (for the rest of my life! lol)
No, I dont regret it, things happen for a reason, and we always can look back and think 'i should have done this or that' so then we can learn from it for the future. Anyway, he wanted to be a Priest, and since I believe I was meant to be a muslim, looks like it wouldn't have worked anyway..lol
Posts: 552 | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Are priests allowed to date and marry in your religion?
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ?????: I think one of the headlines in a succesful relationship is respect each other. If one of the partners is born and raised in the believe that it is not respectful to have sex outside a marriage, and honestly believes in that, it will be very difficult for them to meet a person, who is believing someting what's complete the opposite and at the same time respect them.
Most ladies here are defending their point out view out of their own (modern christian) principles, like the muslims are doing the same out of their islamic principles. That's not going to bring the two each other to meet at a certain point...
Issue is; the women want to be respected, while their behaviour is not respectful in this culture.
Remember, for him it will be as difficult to see this through your glasses, as it is as difficult for you to look through his'! To take western couples as an example, doesn't make sense, it is comparing apples with pears.
so of all the mixed western/Egyptian relationships that DO have sex outside yours and the common idea of marriage, its the disrespected westerner that has seduced the disrespecting Egyptian?? Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ?????: Are priests allowed to date and marry in your religion?
Imams are allowed to marry, but muslims in general shouldn't be 'dating' in the western sense of the word... but yes Imams are human beings and entitled to a sex life Posts: 552 | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
I can't see how having sex before marriage plays any part in how long the relationship will last. Sure, if you jump in bed the first night, then it is probably going to turn into a one-night stand thing, or a relationship based only on sex. But, being in a committed relationship (without the ring) is something totally different. How many marriages failed because the people rushed into marriage so they can respectively get their leg over? Today I read the article about Mariah Carey getting married. She said they didn't have sex beforehand- they were together two months before tying the knot (oh, and as I know some people here are obsessed with this stuff, she is ten years older than him). Now, because they waited, does this mean they have more chance of a long happy relationship? Yeah right, I give them a year (three years if she gets pregnant lol)
-------------------- Another one.... Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ?????: In a relationship, sex is one of the many subjects that play a role, but not the headrole!
It can become such if there are any problems regarding it. If everything is fine regarding sex then it doesn't take any leading part in your life or marriage.
So, when people are not having sex before marriage, do they discuss this before marriage then? I mean how do you know you are "made for each other"? There are such weirdos out there I wouldn't take a risk. This DOESN'T mean that I think you would have to "test drive" before you buy but then at least people should talk about it -RIGHT??!! (what you want etc.) I guess you can talk AFTER you're married but I'm not that optimistic that will work either in many cases, people sadly being what they are...too many are just so set in their ways, some are thinking only themselves etc. And somehow I have an opinion that it's almost always women that are not heard re this matter.
(Of course people also change during a long marriage, something can happen later on too.)
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well,,I think that the matter is not about being virgin or not,,Or having sex before marriage or not and how that person or that person looking at it,,Cause as ????? said,,Everyone is gonna looking at it through his/her own lenses and through the background s/he has raised in it,,So there will be no certain point at all to meet between 2 different persons from 2 different cultures as we see a CLEAR example here on that topic...
And in cross-culture relationships the partners will have different views on the issue but yet it doesnt mean that they disrespect each other,,They can still be capable of understanding & respect how each one of them has been raised differently,,A religious muslim/christian/jew man who is virgin suppose to not be looked at like something flawed or not a man or that he is still young boy just only because he prefered to remain virgin out of respect for his beliefs,,A western non-muslim woman who had several previous relationships without marriage suppose to not be looked at as a bad woman because at last..thats how her society/culture is,,He is muslim and she is western non-muslim,,We'll find someone of them will have to compromise for the sake of the other's way of thinking but it doesnt mean s/he is convinced even if they compromised..And mostly we will find the non-muslim/religious side who make the compromise step about that issue because the muslim/religious side looking at it as something related to his God which he has no power to change it as for being something holy to him,,Sure not all muslims are thinking like that,,But as long as s/he is muslim they know if they did it that they doing something aganist what is in their book which make the God who they do believe in it angry at them,,And at last noone is a saint.
And you can still find a persons who doesnt want to marry a non-muslim wo/man who had previous sexual relatioships and vice versa if s/he is a virgin,,Not because they disrespect each other..But just because they are ONLY different and they feel they cannot do that,,But yet they can still RESPECT each other I believe,,IMO its not right to end relationship because of something like that but its just happens.
Anyway,,I think that the matter at all is about in what context people have sex and from here the respect or disrespect should come between 2 different persons,,And GENERALLY Its the idea behind having sex,,Is it a need like our needs for food and water??,,Or its consider to be kind of higher need??,, Is it completely biological need like eating and drinking or it contains other sides??
Can we separate sex from feelings??..Or it is hard thing to do???,,Because some people..Not some but many as far as I know look at sex itself as a form of love,,,They saying that is falling in love with the body..And they dont see anything bad or wrong in it at all...It doesnt have to be romantically and this sort!!,,Others says it is impossible to separate them,,Sex and feelings/romance is one entity which cannot be seperated..
Once I saw a movie called 'Deception',,And there was in it something like a sex club which included different people who have higher and respected positions in the society who are members in it,,They werent allowed to exchange names or info at all,,Just meeting up for sex only,,And in a scene 'Ewan McGregor' asked one woman after making love with her "Why do you do that??",,She smiled and said something like..." Its the intimacy without complications "..
On the other side once in the egyptian movie an egyptian girl who raised up in england in the film with her english mother said that the guys who she dated in england were looking at her as something abnormal and leaving her immeadiately when she just share that she is still virgin...
Just likewise the 36 y.o virgin lady in the other thread,,I noticed some comments described her as being abnormal person who need something like therpay for staying all of that years without sex or whatever if I remember correctly,,It considered even something unsual to that extent to make reportage or an article about her!!
I mean noone can argue about the importanct of sex as one of the most important elements for a happy and stable life with no worries and deprivation,,But all of this things just sometimes make the person asks...
Is sex about feeling satisfied and confident because some other one from the opposite sex finding satisfaction through enjoying by my body generally ??..So thats why some people men/women feeling flattered or ecstatic when someone describe them as being HOT??...
Or its about feeling this feelings with only SPECIFIC person??,,So what if for example I've relationship without marriage to that specific person and s/he got issues which preventing them from making love properly,,Is it mean I should give up on her/him??,,What if s/he has nothing at all but yet they are not compatible with me in bed??,,Should I leave as well??...
What if someone found out that s/he is compatible with another in bed but s/he have no feelings for her/him like those they have for the other who they are not compatible with???,,So who here her/his relationship will gonna work with for better??
What if that virgin woman in the other thread didnt find any man to fall in love with till she dies,,So does she needs to be in loveless sexual relationship to be normal???
What about if someone are soooo in love with some girl or guy to that extent that s/he lost in it the interest completely to be with any other person sexually or romntically because of that who s/he loves,,What if they failed to marry those who they love and just prefered to remain like that single forever,,Does that makes them abnormal as well??
Well,, What about people who going in sexual relationships/marriages just for sex,,because they didnt find someone to fall in love,,Does that makes them normal or abnormal???
Why in the world lately LOOOT of kids with one mother and different fathers,,And other kids with one father and different mothers??,,Is it good or bad thing for the children who are in that sitiuation??,,Does it became the norm that divorce/spilting up is the usual and the exceptions/unusal are those who are in happy relationships/marriages for long years???,,How men and woman relate between sex and love??...Why then mostly the relationships/marriages end shortly if it is real love??..then the partners just keep going on with others and others...I know that everyone wants to live his/her life and share it with someone and have a family..
But is it possible that lot of people think they are in love thus have sex while they are not in fact??,,Are people fooling themselves as a justification for their sub-consciences to have sex without feeling guilty??,,Does it need to be more organized or its fine like that???
etc..etc..etc...
Sorry I digressed lots,,But usually when my head be in chaos I just cannot form the idea well when im spitting them out so it looks like chaos as well
Anyway,,Personally out of my beliefs as a muslim,,I cannot deal with sex before marriage,,And I believe that Allah ordered us to not do it for a reason ,,Or he would be just fine with the idea of having sex before marriage..
But for both muslims/non-muslims...The matter is not about it I wanna do it before or after marriage..But it is about..Why I do need to have sex and with who??..
posted
wow some deep thoughts there Misho thanks for sharing,and only a little chaotic but understood perfectly.
Posts: 3945 | From: ' Res Contr ' Amor non es guirens, lai on sos poders s'atura | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Misho when I was a virgin I didn't analyze nor even think much about sex.
I certainly didn't think about relationships or how it would change my emotions.
Do ever get physically exhausted after thinking about this topic?
I know when I am thinking about world peace and poverty from a Judeu-Christian perspective versus a Islamic Perspective I lose track of direction. One night I managed to cycle the opposite direction into st. Paul instead of going back downtown minneapolis. It was dark and I had 3 weeks worth of groceries on my bike.
So I can sympathize.
Posts: 107 | Registered: Oct 2008
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
) before marriage?![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
but understood perfectly.
Printer-friendly view of this topic