Serious help required. I have befriended a woman, I am a woman, on several trips to Egypt. She is in desperate need of help and I do not know where to start. I require serious responses. I have just spoken to her about her forthcoming wedding. She has broken down in tears and has confided in me that she lost her virginity to a man she loved many years ago. She is, as you can understand, deeply concerned about her hymen and the shame this will | may bring to her and her family on her wedding night. I have suggested the repair of her hymen, can anyone please suggest how she can find a reputable doctor in Alexandria. I am deeply concerned for her and I have no idea how to help. Does anyone know the costs. I can wirw her the money. Please help.
Posted by urgent help required (Member # 9769) on :
Zaykon. I so appreciate your response. I do not think she has the option. If anyone can offer some advice - please respond
Posted by Melati (Member # 9610) on :
I am really interested to know-waht is the exact procedure to do this? Like where do they get the repair bit from? Is it a day surgery kind of thing? Sorry if that sounds like a stupid question, I just dont know how do they do it? How do you ensure that blood would actually come?
Posted by Leila (Member # 8539) on :
I dont call this a 'desperate need of help'.. she made a big mistake in her past but lying and covering it up is not the right answer. Its not her fiance but God that she should be worried about and seeking repentance and forgiveness from him. She should tell her fiance the truth, ofcourse he will be upset -i would be too if i found out my fiance was not a virgin as it would make me question his understanding and love for Islam... but being a good muslim is much more than just maintaining your virginity and the ability to admit your mistakes, face them and learn from them (no matter how big and what the consequences) speaks much more loudly to a persons character and integrity. Lies have short legs pretty soon they always have a way of catching up with you. If he loves her and knows her character he should be able to look past this one mistake (i'm sure he's made plenty of his own mistakes).. after all only God is perfect and only God can judge her.
Posted by urgent help required (Member # 9769) on :
Leila, thank you, I understand what you are saying. We have discussed this and she feels it isn't an option, as it will bring so much shame on her.
Posted by Snoozin (Member # 6244) on :
Zaykon. I am glad to know there are men out there with attitudes like yours.
quote:Originally posted by Zaykon: well i am an egyptian man,i would prefer honesty rather than being bluffed which is not going to happen coz even if she repaired her hymen ,her future husband might know that it's repaired. so plz do tell her to be honest with him and if he is good man he will accept her as she is. it will even be better if he is muslim as i am coz if i was in same situation 1-if get to point where we r going to be married then i do love her. 2-if i do love her nothing can come between us. 3-i am not God to judge her. 4-if i cover her mistake in life God will cover mine at judgment day 1 thing i would ask is to be honest no matter what.
Posted by Sadeeqy (Member # 9759) on :
Well, in my opinion, virginity doesn't represent a flesh of meat, but a state of mind. Once lost, forever lost and no doctor could fix that. I'm not judgemental here, only God had the right to judge us, but let's think a little. Ok, she made a mistake and she slept with a man, even she already knew that it was forbidden. She will anwer for that later. But why does she want to do another mistake, covering the true with a lie? She want to get married only for the hack of it, or she really love the man?. Because a man could forgive her for breaking his heart, but he will never forgive her for breaking his trust!
Posted by Melati (Member # 9610) on :
And the procedure? How do they medically do it?
Posted by Snoozin (Member # 6244) on :
How do other people *know* she was a virgin? Does someone really come in and check the bed sheets?
Too much of a double standard for me...the man can easily conceal his past....
I read a short story fiction piece about an Indian woman on her wedding night. The first time she really got to spend some time with the man who was her husband. And they did not have sex because she did not feel ready to have sex with an almost-complete stranger.
So she bit the inside of her cheek and spat out blood onto the white piece of cloth the parents put on the bed for the wedding night..... Posted by Snoozin (Member # 6244) on :
This might be TMI, but when I lost my virginity, there certainly wasn't enough blood to stain the sheets. Only some spotting afterward...
Posted by ngeg (Member # 1271) on :
quote:Originally posted by Melati: I am really interested to know-waht is the exact procedure to do this? Like where do they get the repair bit from? Is it a day surgery kind of thing? Sorry if that sounds like a stupid question, I just dont know how do they do it? How do you ensure that blood would actually come?
Ehem...melati..it's a very simple day surgery. I have a friend who s a doctor and used to do it to raped girls for free. Many times I'd talk to the girls to check on them and they say it wasnt painful or complicated.
Posted by ngeg (Member # 1271) on :
quote:Originally posted by Zaykon: well for ur knowledge:
there are some women naturally born with no hymen at all still the husband know if she's virgin or not coz it's not just about some blood that stain the sheets
Zaykon: I have a friend who got divorced after two weeks bcz of this! He was her bf for 5 yrs! since she was 17 actually. He was-or seemed to be- an open minded well educated and well travelled man. Now, after a week he took her to the doctor the doctor said it's ok yr wife was born without it. The guy insisted that she bribed the doctor!!! and left her for a week and then came to reconcile. She filed for khol3 later bcz she couldnt stand the thought of living with a man who didn't trust her!
Posted by Dalia (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Leila: Lies have short legs pretty soon they always have a way of catching up with you.
33:37 And when you said to him to whom Allah had shown favor and to whom you had shown a favor: Keep your wife to yourself and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; and you concealed in your soul what Allah would bring to light, and you feared men, and Allah had a greater right that you should fear Him. But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah's command shall be performed.
Posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari (Member # 8356) on :
quote:Originally posted by Zaykon: well for ur knowledge:
there are some women naturally born with no hymen at all still the husband know if she's virgin or not coz it's not just about some blood that stain the sheets
See my post
Posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari (Member # 8356) on :
quote:Originally posted by ngeg: it's a very simple day surgery. I have a friend who s a doctor and used to do it to raped girls for free. Many times I'd talk to the girls to check on them and they say it wasnt painful or complicated.
What.. Rape!!
Posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari (Member # 8356) on :
Whatīs wrong with telling the truth with the man you chose to be your soulmate..
Men are such aratees!
Posted by Melati (Member # 9610) on :
Thanks Ngeg and Snoezin. Im sure that the girl would have become almost intact again if she is not like a regular sexually active person?Obviously not the hymen, but ... Like once a few years ago is not going to affect the ummmm, effect?
Posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari (Member # 8356) on :
quote:Originally posted by urgent help required: Hymenography
This means taking a picture of the hymen.
Donīt tell me this is a new requirement of the wedding album!
Posted by Melati (Member # 9610) on :
And wont it be like losing the viginity once more? I mean-for example if you were raped, this is not sex as per in a marital union, so its kind of like being a virgin when you first get married? Or does the girl want to feel REALLY like the first time? I mean its about her perception of herself?
Posted by crazylobo (Member # 5457) on :
So do all the men that lose their virginity are they under the same scrutiny? Do they get their penis stamped with 'Virgin'
And making love to someone "IS a big mistake" are men forced to believe the same?
Most women have no hymen intact ... but are still virgins ...
Posted by Snoozin (Member # 6244) on :
quote:Originally posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari: Donīt tell me this is a new requirement of the wedding album!
ROFL!!!
Hey, why hasn't some artificial type of chastity indicator for men been developed, something akin to the hymen, if having physicial proof of virginity is so important? Posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari (Member # 8356) on :
quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: Hey, why hasn't some artificial type of chastity indicator for men been developed, something akin to the hymen, if having physicial proof of virginity is so important?
How about dickheadectomy!
Posted by kaldoais (Member # 8386) on :
I for one did not bleed when I lost my virginity. It was very painful but I didn't bleed at all.
Posted by yazid904 (Member # 7708) on :
Any man who still believes in this archaic concept of 'intact' women before marriage while he himself participates in the opposite (getting as many women as possible) is not a man of honour! That is deceeption and if this is a cultural expectation then there will be problems.
If a man claims he love a woman, he does it selflessly and will accept the woman as she is providing honour is in their hearts. If a women's honour is between her legs then that is the wrong view for any type of relationship. Honour should be in action and word.
Posted by Snoozin (Member # 6244) on :
Yay, another reasonable man. Posted by urgent help required (Member # 9769) on :
I appreciate all of your responses. I read your responses with interest and note that most of you are residing outside of Egypt. Obviously, I feel the same way you guys do, and feel saddened that she feels unable to be honest with the man she plans to spend the rest of her life with.
Posted by Tiger1225 (Member # 9196) on :
quote:Originally posted by urgent help required: Serious help required. I have befriended a woman, I am a woman, on several trips to Egypt. She is in desperate need of help and I do not know where to start. I require serious responses. I have just spoken to her about her forthcoming wedding. She has broken down in tears and has confided in me that she lost her virginity to a man she loved many years ago. She is, as you can understand, deeply concerned about her hymen and the shame this will | may bring to her and her family on her wedding night. I have suggested the repair of her hymen, can anyone please suggest how she can find a reputable doctor in Alexandria. I am deeply concerned for her and I have no idea how to help. Does anyone know the costs. I can wirw her the money. Please help.
the turth may hurt but it will definetly heal... I will not mind or care if I was told the truth...or ever not told the truth..since I loved this person for who she is and her past is her past...but living in Egypt I do not know how I would of felt about it...
I think she should talk to the her fiancee about it ...openly and frankly...if she trusts him to be open minded..if not..Just let him gooooo
Posted by dwgendy (Member # 8693) on :
I'm sorry to hear that your friend is looking for such surgery, but again, it is not my place or anyones place to judge her. I agree with those who sugested that cairo is a bettr place to get Hymenoraphy (not Hymenography) Sorry My Kingdom, "raphy" is a more apropriate expression than Hymenoplasty, since it is most of the time done by suturing the edges of thin mucus flaps from the vulva to function temporartly as a hymen and give the sens of difloration and a stain of blood. (same concept of the surgery named Tarsoraphy) I understand that it is not a well developed procedure in the west bocause no one needs it, but it is much more in practice here in Egypt becuase many seek to do it, they even come from all over the middle east asking for it. Actually there are many techniues to do it. One of the tricky questions in PHD oral exams for Obs&Gyn is techniques of Hymenoraphy. the right ansewr ofcourse is "I don't know", other wise you fail your exam for moral reasons (most reputable doctors consider it a criminal procedure becuase it aimes only to fool and victimize another person). As for names and contacts for doctors who would agree to do such procedure, I don't think it will be easy to get any over the net. It is already hard to get one in person, so over the net is gonna be more of a metion impossible.
One more thing. Virginity is a very important thing both for men and women, we as a middle eastern society appreciate and honer this very much, and it is just as foribben for men as for women. So for the sake of god, to all the men out there, if you are not a virgin, why on earth do u look down on women who are just like you?! it just happens (just happens) that women have something that might prove thier virginity. That doesn't mean that men should enjoy more rights than they are allowed to.
quote:Originally posted by urgent help required: I appreciate all of your responses. I read your responses with interest and note that most of you are residing outside of Egypt. Obviously, I feel the same way you guys do, and feel saddened that she feels unable to be honest with the man she plans to spend the rest of her life with.
Posted by Snoozin (Member # 6244) on :
quote:Originally posted by dwgendy: One of the tricky questions in PHD oral exams for Obs&Gyn is techniques of Hymenoraphy. the right ansewr ofcourse is "I don't know", other wise you fail your exam for moral reasons (most reputable doctors consider it a criminal procedure becuase it aimes only to fool and victimize another person).
Are physicians in Egypt taught how to do abortions? Is this considered criminal too? Just curious...
(I'm nowhere near a doctor...but is an abortion just a D&C?).
Posted by ExptinCAI (Member # 1439) on :
I don't think she should tell her fiance and I don't think you should encourage her to do so.
She knows him and her situation better than you do and if she thinks this will ruin her reputation and her chance for a good marriage, she is (probably and unfortunately) right.
After all, you don't specify anything about her relationship with her fiance and this could be an arranged wedding.
While we all express our opinions and offer suggestions, it seems she's made her decision and she needs your help in implementing this decision, full stop. It's really nice of you to respect that and try to help her best you can.
I'm sorry I can't offer you any specific information, but I would try searching for a gynecologist on these forums (try searching the username debbie or google debbie at casual cairo and try emailing her...i think she knew a very good one who dealt with lots of expats).
Then call that gynecologist yourself from London and explain the situation. Perhaps the dr will be able to recommend someone for your friend.
Because if she asks around herself, it could backfire on her so she's looking for discretion.
Posted by ngeg (Member # 1271) on :
quote:Originally posted by Zaykon:
quote:Originally posted by ngeg:
quote:Originally posted by Zaykon: well for ur knowledge:
there are some women naturally born with no hymen at all still the husband know if she's virgin or not coz it's not just about some blood that stain the sheets
Zaykon: I have a friend who got divorced after two weeks bcz of this! He was her bf for 5 yrs! since she was 17 actually. He was-or seemed to be- an open minded well educated and well travelled man. Now, after a week he took her to the doctor the doctor said it's ok yr wife was born without it. The guy insisted that she bribed the doctor!!! and left her for a week and then came to reconcile. She filed for khol3 later bcz she couldnt stand the thought of living with a man who didn't trust her!
good for her , as he's not man enough to know the difference,even if he have doubts he should trust her.
she will have the one who deserve her inshalah.
Hehehehehe..guess what ? she married the doctor!!!!
Posted by ngeg (Member # 1271) on :
quote:Originally posted by Melati: And wont it be like losing the viginity once more? I mean-for example if you were raped, this is not sex as per in a marital union, so its kind of like being a virgin when you first get married? Or does the girl want to feel REALLY like the first time? I mean its about her perception of herself?
First of all, from a religious point of view a raped woman has the right to "keep the info to herself" and if it does her good she can get this operation done. I got this info from dar el eftaa in Egypt. So im a 100% sure it's the right thing to do in that case if the woman wants it and it wouldnt be considered cheating.
second, from a scoial point of view..it still matters to many families and if the raped girl wants to feel socially eligible. She has every right. At the end of the day, she s already been humiliated once. No need for a social scene!
Third: i think in a way it does her good to feel it's her first time...even if it brings bad memories or whatever.
Hmmm..but that's a whole different story from the one in question. I do hope"urgent help required" finds an answer.
Posted by EFLVirgo (Member # 6264) on :
quote:Originally posted by dwgendy: One more thing. Virginity is a very important thing both for men and women, we as a middle eastern society appreciate and honer this very much, and it is just as foribben for men as for women. So for the sake of god, to all the men out there, if you are not a virgin, why on earth do u look down on women who are just like you?! it just happens (just happens) that women have something that might prove thier virginity. That doesn't mean that men should enjoy more rights than they are allowed to.
Thank You!
Posted by EFLVirgo (Member # 6264) on :
quote:Originally posted by ngeg: Hehehehehe..guess what ? she married the doctor!!!!
LOL. That's a great ending (or beginning). I hope her ex eats his heart out and gets a woman he deserves. Posted by Dalia (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Zaykon: we r not animals to do it like Nike says"Just do it"
You obviously completely misunderstood the slogan. Posted by KeepinItReal (Member # 7946) on :
Urgent says her friend was in love before and lost her virginity then. It's possible she may have thought she was to marry that man she lost her virginity to. We don't know her situation. I have to say on my standpoint that her virginity is irrelevant. It doesn't define her. There's much more to a person than basing it on soley her virginity.
Posted by Tiger1225 (Member # 9196) on :
quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: Are physicians in Egypt taught how to do abortions? [/QB]
Snoozin????????what kind of question is this?????
Posted by Troubles101 (Member # 4543) on :
quote:Originally posted by ExptinCAI: I don't think she should tell her fiance and I don't think you should encourage her to do so.
She knows him and her situation better than you do and if she thinks this will ruin her reputation and her chance for a good marriage, she is (probably and unfortunately) right.
After all, you don't specify anything about her relationship with her fiance and this could be an arranged wedding.
While we all express our opinions and offer suggestions, it seems she's made her decision and she needs your help in implementing this decision, full stop. It's really nice of you to respect that and try to help her best you can.
I'm sorry I can't offer you any specific information, but I would try searching for a gynecologist on these forums (try searching the username debbie or google debbie at casual cairo and try emailing her...i think she knew a very good one who dealt with lots of expats).
Then call that gynecologist yourself from London and explain the situation. Perhaps the dr will be able to recommend someone for your friend.
Because if she asks around herself, it could backfire on her so she's looking for discretion.
I agree!
Most Egyptians wont accept it and those who wont mind at first will bring on the subject whenever a conflict arise between them after marriage, she will alwayes feel pressured about it unfortunatly, so let her keep it between herself and God untill the mind of Egyptian men change......hopefully!
Posted by Troubles101 (Member # 4543) on :
quote:Originally posted by kaldoais: I for one did not bleed when I lost my virginity. It was very painful but I didn't bleed at all.
Does it make a sound similar to that of oppining a coca cola bottle ?
Posted by dwgendy (Member # 8693) on :
Again, I have to insist that niehter me nor anyone els has the right to judge her or her actions. BUT, is this girl looking for Hymenoraphy a muslem? because if she is then we have a bit of a problem. I will explain why. In the islamic marrage contract, the waley (the representative of the bride) like the father, most of the time, who handels the marage process for her will have to recite the marital statment which states exactly: Zawagtoka ebnatee (Name) al balegh, al 3akel, al 3azra'a 3ala sonnat alla wa rasoleh PBOH translation: I marry you to my daughter (name) the grown up (had her menarch), the sane (not insane) and the virgine (or if she has been married before then he says the non virgin) as instructed by god and prophit mohamed PBOH.
So the marrage contract will contain a statement that she is virgine verbally and written. any contradiction beween any of the mentioned lines (like she is not his daughter, she adopted, or she is insane, or she hasn't started her menses or her state of virginity is differant from what is stated) then the contract is invalid and the marrage is not true. So it's a bit tricky though, unless the ma;ezoon avoids in his form mentioning the virginity part. And even then, I have no idea about the effect of that on the validity of the marrage contract.
Snoozin, Yes they do learn it, there arte many reasons where you have to make abortion to save the mothers life, so they do teach it. and yes, it is simply a D&C but it is a bit more dangerous becuase a pregnant uterus is softer than a non pregnant one, so the incidance of perforation is higher.
What I said here generally is to the best of my own knowledge, I am not an islamic shiekh or a mofty. So please, everyone, refer to better sources if you need to confirm.
quote:Originally posted by ExptinCAI: I don't think she should tell her fiance and I don't think you should encourage her to do so.
She knows him and her situation better than you do and if she thinks this will ruin her reputation and her chance for a good marriage, she is (probably and unfortunately) right.
After all, you don't specify anything about her relationship with her fiance and this could be an arranged wedding.
While we all express our opinions and offer suggestions, it seems she's made her decision and she needs your help in implementing this decision, full stop. It's really nice of you to respect that and try to help her best you can.
I'm sorry I can't offer you any specific information, but I would try searching for a gynecologist on these forums (try searching the username debbie or google debbie at casual cairo and try emailing her...i think she knew a very good one who dealt with lots of expats).
Then call that gynecologist yourself from London and explain the situation. Perhaps the dr will be able to recommend someone for your friend.
Because if she asks around herself, it could backfire on her so she's looking for discretion.
Posted by K7 (Member # 7854) on :
Perhaps the couple are religious, and understand that she may have repented what she done [ you dont need to be religious to repent either[. That case there is no need to tell her....
quote:
Sixthly:
Beware of telling your husband about what happened, rather you should conceal it with the concealment of Allaah. If you tell him, it may lead to bad consequences. So leave this issue between you and Allaah, and repent to Him, may He be exalted. Ask Him for forgiveness and do a lot of good deeds; strive to get your husband to tell his family about your marriage, and ask him to stay with you so that he can help you to obey Allaah. Do not open any closed doors by telling him what happened, because there is no benefit in telling him, rather that may only lead to something that is not in your interests at all. source
quote: With regard to telling your husband about what has happened to you in the past, you do not have to do that once you have repented from it. You should cover yourself and not speak openly of something that you have done in the past. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: All of my ummah will be forgiven except those who commit sin blatantly. It is committing sin blatantly if a man does something at night, then in the morning when Allaah has concealed him, he says, O So and so, I did such and such last night, when all night his Lord has concealed him, and he uncovers that which Allaah has concealed. Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6069; Muslim, 2990. source
Posted by Snoozin (Member # 6244) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tiger1225: Snoozin????????what kind of question is this?????
I ask because that (abortion) is a very controversial type of procedure done here, surrounded by religious and moral debate. So it seems to be somewhat akin to the procedure to repair the hymen. DWgendy said physicians are not supposed to know how to do that procedure because it is deemed criminal and amoral.
I was wondering how Egyptian physicians viewed abortion, that is all.
I was trying to relate the hymen repair surgery to something that I know to be politically sensitive. Abortion.
Posted by Humanized (Member # 8471) on :
Abortion statistics and other data
by Wm. Robert Johnston last updated 8 November 2005
quote:Originally posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari:
quote:Originally posted by ngeg: it's a very simple day surgery. I have a friend who s a doctor and used to do it to raped girls for free. Many times I'd talk to the girls to check on them and they say it wasnt painful or complicated.
What.. Rape!!
Well, keep discovering!!!
Posted by _Masrawi_ (Member # 9597) on :
One thing is for sure ... The worst thing she could do is have that operation done. I'd rather discover that i was lied to, rather than fooled.
Posted by Sadeeqy (Member # 9759) on :
Exactly my point of view, Masrawi! I quote myself for that!
quote: Well, in my opinion, virginity doesn't represent a flesh of meat, but a state of mind. Once lost, forever lost and no doctor could fix that. I'm not judgemental here, only God had the right to judge us, but let's think a little. Ok, she made a mistake and she slept with a man, even she already knew that it was forbidden. She will anwer for that later. But why does she want to do another mistake, covering the true with a lie? She want to get married only for the hack of it, or she really love the man?. Because a man could forgive her for breaking his heart, but he will never forgive her for breaking his trust!
Posted by mooneal (Member # 8782) on :
The best thing is to be honest- tell that u know me - as I am. And I know who u are. I'm goin' to be with u ever after. And u with me.I felt in love with somebody else, I thought it's forever, perhaps u too in ur former relationship It didn't work. I can't apologise and feel sorrow. I stopped sth wrong. I'm happy I stopped and now find a man who I want to married. I feel u are this person.As u. I hope u will be honest not blaming yourself all ur life. It will take u energy to be with ur man. Wish u all the best
Posted by _Masrawi_ (Member # 9597) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sadeeqy: Exactly my point of view, Masrawi! I quote myself for that!
quote: Well, in my opinion, virginity doesn't represent a flesh of meat, but a state of mind. Once lost, forever lost and no doctor could fix that. I'm not judgemental here, only God had the right to judge us, but let's think a little. Ok, she made a mistake and she slept with a man, even she already knew that it was forbidden. She will anwer for that later. But why does she want to do another mistake, covering the true with a lie? She want to get married only for the hack of it, or she really love the man?. Because a man could forgive her for breaking his heart, but he will never forgive her for breaking his trust!
Jut wanted to make sure the point came through from a guy's point of view.
Posted by Sadeeqy (Member # 9759) on :
Well, the last phrase it's my husband point of view, so.....
Posted by mooneal (Member # 8782) on :
I discovered that Egyptians have some believes and truth built deeply in their minds. Is my perception true?
Posted by _Masrawi_ (Member # 9597) on :
quote:Originally posted by mooneal: I discovered that Egyptians have some believes and truth built deeply in their minds. Is my perception true?
Yes ... Funny enough, Egyptians are no different than the others. Now, isn't that something?
Posted by mooneal (Member # 8782) on :
Masrawi, I have never stated, u are different... I mean,the Egyptian I met tell me the same. Nothing wrong, but then the troubles start.
Posted by Tiger1225 (Member # 9196) on :
How about men....if the man is not a virgin...and getting married ..of course there is no physical evidence...but should he tell his wife to be or not and is she supposed to be concerned as much....
Posted by sonomod (Member # 3864) on :
quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: This might be TMI, but when I lost my virginity, there certainly wasn't enough blood to stain the sheets. Only some spotting afterward...
Thats why the have the procedure done first between the ages of 4-10 so its a more intentional seal that needs to be broken.
Sometimes a mid-wife needs to come in and break it or her husband works on breaking it with his member for several hours on their wedding night.
The bloody sheet is shown the next day to both families.
Its for her honor and his.
If any man says he prefers an honest woman, he is lying his @ss off.
He really wants the bloody sheet.
Posted by Pook (Member # 9193) on :
They used to use a handcarchif for doing it and show it to the family and friends on the wedding night not next day, the bed sheets were never used as u stated. The mid-wife would assist in many situation but that has nothing to do with FGM becuse in Egypt nothing is sewed they only cut of part of the labia. In non-virgins the mid-wife would use her nail to injur the inner lining of the vagina and obtain blood on the handcarchif. Those are actions that used to be practiced in upper Egypt and the country side long time ago, no one does it anymore! where do u come from or where do u get such information! Do you really think they do that now! I don't know but you seem to always have some strange antique information! Non of my friends had anyhitng like that, many don't even have a clue about it! and we are Egyptians living amonge egyptians! Any way, to each his own.
quote:Originally posted by sonomod:
quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: This might be TMI, but when I lost my virginity, there certainly wasn't enough blood to stain the sheets. Only some spotting afterward...
Thats why the have the procedure done first between the ages of 4-10 so its a more intentional seal that needs to be broken.
Sometimes a mid-wife needs to come in and break it or her husband works on breaking it with his member for several hours on their wedding night.
The bloody sheet is shown the next day to both families.
Its for her honor and his.
If any man says he prefers an honest woman, he is lying his @ss off.
He really wants the bloody sheet.
Posted by K7 (Member # 7854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pook: I don't know but you seem to always have some strange anique information! N
[/QB][/QUOTE]
yes.. I agree I told her before she needs to update her Library..
Posted by Mr.X (Member # 9800) on :
Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity! there are so many ways without operation to solve this problem! like go to a gynecologist and let him give you a testify that your hymen s intact but wide. use a small blood ballon and rupture it while intercourse a.s.o.
Posted by sonomod (Member # 3864) on :
quote:Originally posted by K7:
quote:Originally posted by Pook: I don't know but you seem to always have some strange anique information! N
yes.. I agree I told her before she needs to update her Library.. [/QB][/QUOTE]
No this is coming from women doctors in the urban centers and the rural areas of Egypt.
Naturally this might explain why when these doctors go to the UN with their compiled information on women's health including FGM practices they get thrown into jail or asked to leave the country for a while.
My library is from the UN, Population Council and the World Health Organization because the Egyptian government won't allow this kind of information to be pooled together let alone publish it within Egypt.
Kinda like you cannot find proper information within the US on human rights abuses in Occupied Iraq and Afghanistan. Why would the USA White House administration air their own dirty laundry.
Thats why I rely on NGOs within Occupied Iraq and Afghanistan.
Remember the proverb, a gazelle wouldn't trust a lion for a physician?
Well thats exactly my angle on the issue.
Besides no upper class Arab will ever find fault within their own societies unless it directly affects them.
Posted by sonomod (Member # 3864) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mr.X: Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity! there are so many ways without operation to solve this problem! like go to a gynecologist and let him give you a testify that your hymen s intact but wide. use a small blood ballon and rupture it while intercourse a.s.o.
Okay two problems here:
1. the small blood balloon of chickens blood is a con-game and you know it. Its a fake expression of a person's virginity.
2. Most girls break or loosen their hymen during play so it won't exactly be taunt or intact to be examined.
If that was the case I would've bleed when I lost my virginity at 19 to my fiance.
But I didn't have a hymen left and if I did it would mean my legs were bound together for 19 years up to that point.
Even if my legs were bound together until marriage (Edwardian and Victorian habits come to mind) I wouldn't necessarily bleed.
Vaginal scar tissue bleeds when its been ripped.
Why after I delivered my daughter I was told my episotomy had to heal for 1 month before intercourse. Or it would bleed and get infected.
Posted by QueenBee (Member # 9378) on :
as an american I find this topic rather icky, esp. the unfair implications and social or relationship issues potentially created for the female if ignorance of anatomy encourages people to think all physiologies are alike. In other words, if someone doesn't have this, the bad result for her... whatever. My only question is, don't any egyptian women use tampons? ewwwww..... I think a super-plus would do some rearranging to anything going on there. Ugh. I cannot imagine anyone discussing my PRIVATE life (understatement) in that manner. barf. Mabrook to your friend and I hope she figures that out.
Posted by sonomod (Member # 3864) on :
quote:Originally posted by QueenBee: as an american I find this topic rather icky, esp. the unfair implications and social or relationship issues potentially created for the female if ignorance of anatomy encourages people to think all physiologies are alike. In other words, if someone doesn't have this, the bad result for her... whatever. My only question is, don't any egyptian women use tampons? ewwwww..... I think a super-plus would do some rearranging to anything going on there. Ugh. I cannot imagine anyone discussing my PRIVATE life (understatement) in that manner. barf. Mabrook to your friend and I hope she figures that out.
And this attitude is exactly why Westernized Arabs won't admit to FGM existing.
Posted by QueenBee (Member # 9378) on :
what attitude is that?
Posted by sonomod (Member # 3864) on :
quote:Originally posted by QueenBee: what attitude is that?
your shitty slutty attitude that is so ethnocentric.
Posted by QueenBee (Member # 9378) on :
You have a polite way of talking. I wouldnt enjoy having family members, and in-laws, discussing the physical attributes of my wedding night. That is a personal statement that is true. I consider the bond between my husband and I to have a private center that in many ways begins on this night. Although do not want to encourage deceit, in response to the original post, the post is about deceit. So my thinking, is, in order to avoid surgery, which is often best-avoided if not necessary, she could simply say that she has used tampons in the past. Again, good luck to your friend and I hope she finds a good solution to her problem.
Posted by sonomod (Member # 3864) on :
quote:Originally posted by QueenBee: You have a polite way of talking. I wouldnt enjoy having family members, and in-laws, discussing the physical attributes of my wedding night. That is a personal statement that is true. I consider the bond between my husband and I to have a private center that in many ways begins on this night. Although do not want to encourage deceit, in response to the original post, the post is about deceit. So my thinking, is, in order to avoid surgery, which is often best-avoided if not necessary, she could simply say that she has used tampons in the past. Again, good luck to your friend and I hope she finds a good solution to her problem.
And it isn't polite to espouse your cultural BS on an entire group of 70 million people.
Get a brain woman!
Posted by _Masrawi_ (Member # 9597) on :
quote:Originally posted by sonomod: And this attitude is exactly why Westernized Arabs won't admit to FGM existing.
We admit that it exists ... we simpy disagree on how common it is. That's where u r confused.
Posted by sonomod (Member # 3864) on :
quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_:
quote:Originally posted by sonomod: And this attitude is exactly why Westernized Arabs won't admit to FGM existing.
We admit that it exists ... we simpy disagree on how common it is. That's where u r confused.
Well thats because you are allowing your pride to dictate the numbers.
I prefer to stick with the NGO numbers that are actually assessing the frequency and the health ramification of the practice.
Its another reason why Arab countries are mostly sand. Plenty of places to stick their heads.
Posted by _Masrawi_ (Member # 9597) on :
quote:Originally posted by sonomod:
quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_:
quote:Originally posted by sonomod: And this attitude is exactly why Westernized Arabs won't admit to FGM existing.
We admit that it exists ... we simpy disagree on how common it is. That's where u r confused.
Well thats because you are allowing your pride to dictate the numbers.
I prefer to stick with the NGO numbers that are actually assessing the frequency and the health ramification of the practice.
Its another reason why Arab countries are mostly sand. Plenty of places to stick their heads.
You lose credibility when u make a post like this sonomod.
Posted by sonomod (Member # 3864) on :
quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_: You lose credibility when u make a post like this sonomod.
Denile isn't just a river in Egypt.
Attempting to deny a fact of life is like the Iranians claiming the Holoucost never happened. Like the Israeli's bring up the Holoucost continueously instead of taking ownership of the apartheid/genocide they have brought upon the Palestinians.
Dissassociation doesn't make the problem go away.
But you are too proud to realize that.
Posted by QueenBee (Member # 9378) on :
Urgent Help Required, I forgot to mention, with the various comentary going on, that your friend may well wish to venture out of Alex for cosmetic surgery. Sorry I can't help u with a recommendation, I've never needed sugery abroad! There is an interesting, though hair-rasing article about this issue, don't know if it helps at all, although dated you can make a generalized adjustment for inflation and such. I thought it was interesting that a qualified surgeon may actually reduce the likelihood of the person going through with the surgery... here's a link http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~issues/fall98/hymenrep.html If i hear of any good surgeons in Cairo or Alex I will post.
Posted by QueenBee (Member # 9378) on :
Haha, hey pardon the typos my laptop keyboard is fading fast.....
Posted by _Masrawi_ (Member # 9597) on :
quote:Originally posted by sonomod:
quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_: You lose credibility when u make a post like this sonomod.
Denile isn't just a river in Egypt.
Attempting to deny a fact of life is like the Iranians claiming the Holoucost never happened. Like the Israeli's bring up the Holoucost continueously instead of taking ownership of the apartheid/genocide they have brought upon the Palestinians.
Dissassociation doesn't make the problem go away.
But you are too proud to realize that.
Political Science 101 for the delusional sonomods: What the Iranian president did is called political propaganda ... the intention of which was not to express a personal opinion nor deny facts of history. It was, however, meant to rally the ignorant and gain popularity among them. Even the staunch supporters of Islam will proclaim the Iranian president's statements as mere publicity.
Psychology 101 for the politically inept sonomods: Delusion is defined as a false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness.
Posted by sonomod (Member # 3864) on :
quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_: Psychology 101 for the politically inept sonomods: Delusion is defined as a false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness.
Until you or every half-cocked Sheik, Mullah, or Imam in Egypt go around and do gynological exams and keep a deep extensive file system on how many Egyptian women have had excisions done on them, keep your attitude in check.
I'd rather deal with the female physicians and the NGOs that keep a organized system of tracking female health problems related to circumsicion or "excision" as its refered to than the debilated ego of a Cairne that is overwhelmed with the fact that most of his fellow citizens are still practicing Egyptians!
Posted by _Masrawi_ (Member # 9597) on :
quote:Originally posted by sonomod:
quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_: Psychology 101 for the politically inept sonomods: Delusion is defined as a false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness.
Until you or every half-cocked Sheik, Mullah, or Imam in Egypt go around and do gynological exams and keep a deep extensive file system on how many Egyptian women have had excisions done on them, keep your attitude in check.
I'd rather deal with the female physicians and the NGOs that keep a organized system of tracking female health problems related to circumsicion or "excision" as its refered to than the debilated ego of a Cairne that is overwhelmed with the fact that most of his fellow citizens are still practicing Egyptians!
You are free to believe what you choose ... just don't over-impose your beliefs on us.
Posted by sonomod (Member # 3864) on :
quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_: You are free to believe what you choose ... just don't over-impose your beliefs on us.
Alright I will stick to the facts. You disregard the facts because they wern't presented to you after Friday prayers in a sermon.
Posted by _Masrawi_ (Member # 9597) on :
quote:Originally posted by sonomod:
quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_: You are free to believe what you choose ... just don't over-impose your beliefs on us.
Alright I will stick to the facts. You disregard the facts because they wern't presented to you after Friday prayers in a sermon.
And who ever said that I take Friday prayer sermons without a grain of salt?
To experience Egypt is to live in Egypt and to mingle with Egyptians ...
Posted by sonomod (Member # 3864) on :
quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_:
quote:Originally posted by sonomod:
quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_: You are free to believe what you choose ... just don't over-impose your beliefs on us.
Alright I will stick to the facts. You disregard the facts because they wern't presented to you after Friday prayers in a sermon.
And who ever said that I take Friday prayer sermons without a grain of salt?
To experience Egypt is to live in Egypt and to mingle with Egyptians ...
Blowing smoke again?
Posted by _Masrawi_ (Member # 9597) on :
quote:Originally posted by sonomod:
quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_:
quote:Originally posted by sonomod:
quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_: You are free to believe what you choose ... just don't over-impose your beliefs on us.
Alright I will stick to the facts. You disregard the facts because they wern't presented to you after Friday prayers in a sermon.
And who ever said that I take Friday prayer sermons without a grain of salt?
To experience Egypt is to live in Egypt and to mingle with Egyptians ...
Blowing smoke again?
Huh?!
Posted by sonomod (Member # 3864) on :
quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_: To experience Egypt is to live in Egypt and to mingle with Egyptians ...
People can live in Egypt for decades and not understand the conformity, the social structure, nor the expectations of how the society should work for Egyptians.
Egypt is truly a place where you can go and avoid 90% of Egypt and not have to sweat or really make a purposeful effort to avoid what you don't want to see.
The west is very different. Even if you live in a gated community, homeschool your kids and work from home you will have an effect on the entire society and they will have an effect on you, no matter how much you try to avoid the outside world.
In Egypt you really can create a separate, enclosed existance.
Posted by _Masrawi_ (Member # 9597) on :
quote:Originally posted by sonomod:
quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_: To experience Egypt is to live in Egypt and to mingle with Egyptians ...
Blowing smoke again?
Huh?!
quote:
You and I both know Egypt is a closed society.
People can live in Egypt for decades and not understand the conformity, the social structure, nor the expectations of how the society should work for Egyptians.
Egypt is truly a place where you can go and avoid 90% of Egypt and not have to sweat or really make a purposeful effort to avoid what you don't want to see.
The west is very different. Even if you live in a gated community, homeschool your kids and work from home you will have an effect on the entire society and they will have an effect on you, no matter how much you try to avoid the outside world.
In Egypt you really can create a separate, enclosed existance.
True. But that's a choice i preferred not to make. Without getting into many unnecessary personal details, let's just say that i did have the opportunity to mix with various classes and mantalities in Egypt. So yes, in a way, i did mean what i said ... to know a culture, u do need to truly mingle with its people.
Posted by sonomod (Member # 3864) on :
quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_: True. But that's a choice i preferred not to make. Without getting into many unnecessary personal details, let's just say that i did have the opportunity to mix with various classes and mantalities in Egypt. So yes, in a way, i did mean what i said ... to know a culture, u do need to truly mingle with its people.
And when I am in Egypt I see the non-touristy side of Egypt.
The most glamorous place I go to is Montazah Palace Beach.
Besides that sight-seeing is something I will have to wait to do until I actually live there. Going to Egypt is so I can be dragged through Shebin el-Kaum to see all sorts of in-laws. Cairo is so I can see the everyday side of Cairne life. My FIL in the earlier part of his career worked in Cairo half of the time and the other half in Shebin so he knows his way around.
I also spend almost half of the visit in Alex, where my husbnd spent the first 14 years of his life.
So I don't get to see what most tourists get to see. I get to spend my nights on the toilet and most of daylight hours being forcefed and demanded to explain why I haven't popped out another child.
I get to see the real Egypt. Whether I want to or not.
Posted by _Masrawi_ (Member # 9597) on :
quote:Originally posted by sonomod:
quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_: True. But that's a choice i preferred not to make. Without getting into many unnecessary personal details, let's just say that i did have the opportunity to mix with various classes and mantalities in Egypt. So yes, in a way, i did mean what i said ... to know a culture, u do need to truly mingle with its people.
And when I am in Egypt I see the non-touristy side of Egypt.
The most glamorous place I go to is Montazah Palace Beach.
Besides that sight-seeing is something I will have to wait to do until I actually live there. Going to Egypt is so I can be dragged through Shebin el-Kaum to see all sorts of in-laws. Cairo is so I can see the everyday side of Cairne life. My FIL in the earlier part of his career worked in Cairo half of the time and the other half in Shebin so he knows his way around.
I also spend almost half of the visit in Alex, where my husbnd spent the first 14 years of his life.
So I don't get to see what most tourists get to see. I get to spend my nights on the toilet and most of daylight hours being forcefed and demanded to explain why I haven't popped out another child.
I get to see the real Egypt. Whether I want to or not.
Right ... 6 weeks worth of Egypt all in all.
Not to mention that what u do get to see is dictated by your husband and his family ... not to mention that u were always accompanied by them.
so no, i am afraid u do not know egypt. make no mistake, i know u r a smart chick ... but that still doesn't mean u know Egypt sonomod.
Posted by sonomod (Member # 3864) on :
quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_:
quote:Originally posted by sonomod:
quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_: True. But that's a choice i preferred not to make. Without getting into many unnecessary personal details, let's just say that i did have the opportunity to mix with various classes and mantalities in Egypt. So yes, in a way, i did mean what i said ... to know a culture, u do need to truly mingle with its people.
And when I am in Egypt I see the non-touristy side of Egypt.
The most glamorous place I go to is Montazah Palace Beach.
Besides that sight-seeing is something I will have to wait to do until I actually live there. Going to Egypt is so I can be dragged through Shebin el-Kaum to see all sorts of in-laws. Cairo is so I can see the everyday side of Cairne life. My FIL in the earlier part of his career worked in Cairo half of the time and the other half in Shebin so he knows his way around.
I also spend almost half of the visit in Alex, where my husbnd spent the first 14 years of his life.
So I don't get to see what most tourists get to see. I get to spend my nights on the toilet and most of daylight hours being forcefed and demanded to explain why I haven't popped out another child.
I get to see the real Egypt. Whether I want to or not.
Right ... 6 weeks worth of Egypt all in all.
Not to mention that what u do get to see is dictated by your husband and his family ... not to mention that u were always accompanied by them.
so no, i am afraid u do not know egypt. make no mistake, i know u r a smart chick ... but that still doesn't mean u know Egypt sonomod.
And according to a majority of Egyptian Egy-board members I will never know or understand Egypt unless I am Egyptian.
So I don't really care!
Posted by _Masrawi_ (Member # 9597) on :
quote:Originally posted by sonomod: And according to a majority of Egyptian Egy-board members I will never know or understand Egypt unless I am Egyptian.
So I don't really care!
Not with this attitude, u won't ...
I spent some time going back and forth between Cairo and Aswan (the area was even south of Aswan actually) for work. I got to mingle with the locals there ... naturally, they are always wary of "foreginers" (yes, i am considered a foreigner there) and are less talkative. But if u just display the proper aptitude for listening, they eventually open up and let u in ...
Posted by neffeertari (Member # 9440) on :
I cannot believe that at the beginning of the XXI century a woman can be put in this situation!!! IT IS SO ASHAME!!!! The decency of a girl is not between her legs...ufffff what kind of primitive philosophy is this!!!! And also there is a lot of ignorance about this issue. Lets analyse two facts:
1.- MANY GIRLS ARE NOT BLEDDING IN HER FIRST INTERCOURSE...so how could you say that the girl is virgin or not??? 2.- THERE ARE MANY GIRLS AS WELL who lost their himen in a natural way, like dancing or doing gymnastics...how silly to believe that a virgin girl has her himen intact... 3.- if there is a gynecologist in this forum I would like to know what is the way to know if a girl is virgin or not...COZ IN THE WEST EVERYTIME YOU GO TO A GYNECOLOGIST, HE OR SHE ASKS IF YOU HAD SEXUAL RELATIONS BEFORE...So i do not think it is so obvious even for a doctor to see if you are virgin or not...
And sorry...but how to check if a guy is virgin or not? coz I see that for the girls is a big issue, and it is not the same for guys...SHAME ON THIS WAY OF THINKING!!!
Posted by neffeertari (Member # 9440) on :
I cannot believe that at the beginning of the XXI century a woman can be put in this situation!!! IT IS SO ASHAME!!!! The decency of a girl is not between her legs...ufffff what kind of primitive philosophy is this!!!! And also there is a lot of ignorance about this issue. Lets analyse some facts:
1.- MANY GIRLS ARE NOT BLEDDING IN HER FIRST INTERCOURSE...so how could you say that the girl is virgin or not??? 2.- THERE ARE MANY GIRLS AS WELL who lost their himen in a natural way, like dancing or doing gymnastics...how silly to believe that a virgin girl has her himen intact... 3.- if there is a gynecologist in this forum I would like to know what is the way to know if a girl is virgin or not...COZ IN THE WEST EVERYTIME YOU GO TO A GYNECOLOGIST, HE OR SHE ASKS IF YOU HAD SEXUAL RELATIONS BEFORE...So i do not think it is so obvious even for a doctor to see if you are virgin or not...
And sorry...but how to check if a guy is virgin or not? coz I see that for the girls is a big issue, and it is not the same for guys...SHAME ON THIS WAY OF THINKING!!!
Posted by Pook (Member # 9193) on :
I don't think that anyone is denying that FGM is happening, but you were talking about sewing and tightining and stuff that don't happen here in Egypt, you were discribing from what I understand the sudanese female circumcision. Girls still get circuncised here in Egypt, not as much as before, but in a considerably large number specialy in the country side. But you were talking about a totaly diferent issue. Unless you jsut want to bring up subjects that you want to discuss and it happened to be some how related to the issue from your point of view. I can't help but see that you tend to think that you know better than anyone els and that your some how shallow brief and limited experience in Egypt tend to dominate your perception about Egypt! (I don't mean any offence by shallow) I just mean that you have and expereince through some family members you mention. and you saw things with them and through them. But that doesn't mean anything in the big picture. Specially when, as you mentioned, you are not familiar with the culture and not even interested in getting familiar with it. About NGO reports. I don't know how many or what type did you have access to, but I'm sure that just as much as no imam, shiekh or mofty can see whats between womens legs, it just goes like wise for NGOs specially that this is a private issue. You have a lot to learn about the worl od NGOs and Development to realize how things work. When I shared in fieled work before and we were supposed to ask people for what they had for lunch, they would refuse to answer. And the responsible personel would have to fabricate the rest of the report to KEEP ENOUGH SPONSORING MONEY for the project next year. So I don't think a fairly wide base none bias statisics are a vailable for the FGM. My peice of advise is to always anticipate you lake of knowledgs. And give the benifit of doubt for anyhitng you see. Because what you see, is merely just what you see. There is plenty more that you can't see. Oh, and PLease, try to appreciate other peoples opinions and inteligance. This makes people see you smarter.
I hope I didn't offend you by any menas.
PS. One more thing, Episiotomy heal within 3 days. The suters used disolve and lose thiere intigrety (as I heared) within 12 hours and disolve completely within 2 weeks.
Posted by Pook (Member # 9193) on :
Well, you'll have to try having a relation with a virgin to realize that it is not only bleeding, there is a sens of difloration. Yes a Gynacologist can tell if you had sex before or not from the appearance of your external genitalia. As I recon from the appearance of what's called the labia majora. (non coapting labia on the examination bed) but I think it is more a sign of frequent intercourse, so I don't think it aplies for only one intercourse or very few. (I don't really know).
Well, have you ever had a girl that was playing gymnastic examined? do you have a documentation that all girls playing gymnastic lose thier hymen? Is this a stated well documented fact?
Unfortunatly there is no way to tell if a man had had previous intercourse before or not (unless he is a reciever). But that is merely a situational or better say it just happens to be this way, becuase men are not allowed just as much as women. The problem here is in Women themselves because women generally (not only in Egypt) like to appraoch men with experiece. So here in Egypt SOME would say that he will change and with me he will be devoted. MANY men would be refused by women if they are known in their community for being womenizers. Most respectable religious women would not agree to marry a man who was involved in premarital sexual relation.
I think Shame on anyone who doesn't have enough tolerance to appreciate other cultural differances. People here appreciate Marrage and sexual relations and put them in a holy frame. I think this is a something to be admired. If a minority abuse this social code, that doesn't mean that the concept is shamfull at all.
As I said before, men who have done something, should accept women who have done the same and appreciate them just as they appreciate themsleves. That goes also for the ones that saved themsleves for someone special in their life.
Treat others the way you wish to be treated.
quote:Originally posted by neffeertari: I cannot believe that at the beginning of the XXI century a woman can be put in this situation!!! IT IS SO ASHAME!!!! The decency of a girl is not between her legs...ufffff what kind of primitive philosophy is this!!!! And also there is a lot of ignorance about this issue. Lets analyse some facts:
1.- MANY GIRLS ARE NOT BLEDDING IN HER FIRST INTERCOURSE...so how could you say that the girl is virgin or not??? 2.- THERE ARE MANY GIRLS AS WELL who lost their himen in a natural way, like dancing or doing gymnastics...how silly to believe that a virgin girl has her himen intact... 3.- if there is a gynecologist in this forum I would like to know what is the way to know if a girl is virgin or not...COZ IN THE WEST EVERYTIME YOU GO TO A GYNECOLOGIST, HE OR SHE ASKS IF YOU HAD SEXUAL RELATIONS BEFORE...So i do not think it is so obvious even for a doctor to see if you are virgin or not...
And sorry...but how to check if a guy is virgin or not? coz I see that for the girls is a big issue, and it is not the same for guys...SHAME ON THIS WAY OF THINKING!!!
Posted by Snoozin (Member # 6244) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pook: Well, have you ever had a girl that was playing gymnastic examined? do you have a documentation that all girls playing gymnastic lose thier hymen? Is this a stated well documented fact?
No, not all girls who are athletic break the hymen. It is just a *possible* way for the hymen to be broken....gymnastics....horsebackriding....biking....
quote:Originally posted by Pook: I think Shame on anyone who doesn't have enough tolerance to appreciate other cultural differances. People here appreciate Marrage and sexual relations and put them in a holy frame.
I don't think people here are really critical of cultural differences as much as they (mostly women) are worried about the potential double standard involved. A man can lose his virginity and there is nothing to prove his status other than his word. A woman could be a virgin but have a broken hymen before marriage, and be seen as an amoral woman. Her word means nothing in the face of *physical* evidence. I think most women just want fairness is this *judgment.*
And you are right. I am Western and used to more lax morals than what Egypt is...but *I* would not want to marry a man who is a womanizer. I think we each want to marry someone like ourselves, ideally. A virgin might want a virgin. A person who believes in sex only for love wants a similar-thinking mate. A person who is fine with sleeping around all over the place probably wants someone with similar experience....
Posted by sonomod (Member # 3864) on :
quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_: But if u just display the proper aptitude for listening, they eventually open up and let u in ...
Alright, get this into your head.
Not only am I expected to be Egyptian overnight, but I am expected to be Egyptian without being instructed on how to behave Egyptian and think Egyptian.
Its not just the listening part, there you have it so wrong.
Its the fact that the Egyptian side isn't listening, just demanding.
Posted by _Masrawi_ (Member # 9597) on :
quote:Originally posted by sonomod:
quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_: But if u just display the proper aptitude for listening, they eventually open up and let u in ...
Alright, get this into your head.
Not only am I expected to be Egyptian overnight, but I am expected to be Egyptian without being instructed on how to behave Egyptian and think Egyptian.
Its not just the listening part, there you have it so wrong.
Its the fact that the Egyptian side isn't listening, just demanding.
I can understand your frustration but at the same time I can't imagine you ever being the kind of girl that would shut her opinionated mouth long enough to listen ... Posted by - Maz - (Member # 9764) on :
Hallo Sonomod, I think this depends on what kind of Egy you are referring to?
Posted by sonomod (Member # 3864) on :
quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_:
quote:Originally posted by sonomod:
quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_: But if u just display the proper aptitude for listening, they eventually open up and let u in ...
Alright, get this into your head.
Not only am I expected to be Egyptian overnight, but I am expected to be Egyptian without being instructed on how to behave Egyptian and think Egyptian.
Its not just the listening part, there you have it so wrong.
Its the fact that the Egyptian side isn't listening, just demanding.
I can understand your frustration but at the same time I can't imagine you ever being the kind of girl that would shut her opinionated mouth long enough to listen ...
I type faster than I speak. I also tend to vent on ES if you haven't noticed.
And in Egypt I am usually so exhausted and sick with a stomach bug from the water I don't have the energy.
Besides I am scared shitless of my sister-in-law.
Everyday I am there my FIL brings in a neighbor who translates my english to arabic for him so he can figure out if my sister-in-law is lying to him and what kind of garbage is she trying to pull.
So I keep my mouth shut and avoid speaking to her, communicating with her just gives her more ammunition to twist my words and create problems.
Posted by sonomod (Member # 3864) on :
quote:Originally posted by - Maz -: Hallo Sonomod, I think this depends on what kind of Egy you are referring to?
the in-law kind.
Posted by - Maz - (Member # 9764) on :
oh.. then.. hmm.. difficult for me to find something intelligent to say when it comes to family dynamics.. the only idea that crosses my mind is that.. maybe.. they're pushing to.. like.. as a kind of.. paying back on something else? but i am not sure?
Posted by sonomod (Member # 3864) on :
quote:Originally posted by - Maz -: they're pushing to.. like.. as a kind of.. paying back on something else? but i am not sure?
Yeah the Israeli occupation of the Palestinians.
And the fact that they think Jews run America and American runs Egypt through Mubarak.
Somehow I have the power to change all that in their minds.
If only Americans were good people and were more like the Egyptians.
Then Palestine would be for Muslims, the Jews would leave the Mid-East and American would submit itself to England.
Yeah, it makes sense now! Posted by - Maz - (Member # 9764) on :
oh, you are really in a difficult situation then. is it possible to make friends with them?
Posted by sonomod (Member # 3864) on :
quote:Originally posted by - Maz -: oh, you are really in a difficult situation then. is it possible to make friends with them?
Yeah its just two relatives.
Most try their darnest to shelter me from this crap.
I try to be friends, but I think it will take time.
Or the reality that even if my husbnd does move on to a "Good Woman", they'll probably figure out then that they like me more than her.
You don't know what you go until its gone.
Posted by - Maz - (Member # 9764) on :
oh if it's just two then try to ignore them, no? they are probably only jealous of you? i am sure you're smarter, and they probably just envy you?
Posted by sonomod (Member # 3864) on :
quote:Originally posted by - Maz -: oh if it's just two then try to ignore them, no? they are probably only jealous of you? i am sure you're smarter, and they probably just envy you?
Yeah I try to ignore them the best i can.
But one is a pharmacist/doctor and the considers himself the smartest man in town.
He's smart, but he's ego is as large as the Egyptian population. LMAO
The other is my sister-in-law. She is married to the eldest son so she has senority and alot of clout that i don't. But she married on the sly, behind her family's back without their approval or notification. So she is considered to be not-so-proper. I did the same thing. We married after 9.11 so telling my folks was a huge no-no. They knew I was dating him, but didn't know he proposed on Labor day. So I did it without their permission or knowledge.
My sister-in-law has paid dearly for her transgression. She wants me to suffer for mine.
I will suffer until people stop talking about her badly behind her back.
The community needs to redem her before she detracts her claws from my hide.
It takes time.
Posted by - Maz - (Member # 9764) on :
Yes, you are, it does really take time. But I have a question: do you think you can try to have lunch with her alone in some place and discuss things? I am sure she has a heart too, and if you two talk openly maybe she will start becoming nicer?
Posted by sonomod (Member # 3864) on :
quote:Originally posted by - Maz -: Yes, you are, it does really take time. But I have a question: do you think you can try to have lunch with her alone in some place and discuss things? I am sure she has a heart too, and if you two talk openly maybe she will start becoming nicer?
We did that once. No one will allow us to be alone for more than 5 minutes now.
Her and I were supposed to spend the night on the town on my 2nd night in Egypt.
Then she decided to invite a friend. This friend of hers doesn't like Americans. This friend of hers assumed that we had conducted a "Orfi Marriage" in the USA and so she started out all nice and then got really nasty about how Egyptian Muslim men shouldn't be marrying American Christian women. That is dishonorable of Egyptian men and a slap in the face of Egyptian or Muslim women everywhere. Then she demanded to know why I don't veil, and why I haven't become a Muslim yet. Then she told me that my husband, my daughter and I were all going to hell. Then she started on the America and Israeli bit.
Then it just got nasty.
I told her I didn't want to talk with her anymore and left.
I walked out into the alley at 9pm at night and didn't come back for 20 minutes. My in-laws already had contacted the police to search for me and the young men in the house, young men at the neighbors had started to comb the streets for me.
They could tell I was crying and didn't ask to much.
The next day my father-in-law went to speak with this girl's parents. Her father and mother berated her for hours. Somehow she admitted gleefully to the whole thing in defense of Islam and the Arabs.
This girl isn't allowed in the family's house anymore.
My mother-in-law the next morning was crying and apologizing. She was devasted.
Now my sister-in-law resents me.
Doesn't matter, this girl showed me a pic of her husband how had spent over a year in Qatar without finding work and her father was paying his expenses.
He's an ugly man, she deserves him. She had a crush on my husband.
She can bite her own tities off for all I care.
Posted by - Maz - (Member # 9764) on :
hahaha i think your family really cares for you, don't give the woman any attention, she's obviously really jealous, right?
Posted by sonomod (Member # 3864) on :
quote:Originally posted by - Maz -: hahaha i think your family really cares for you, don't give the woman any attention, she's obviously really jealous, right?
The friend of the sister-in-law jealous? Yeah my husband lives me with, but for her, her husband runs off to Qatar less than a week after their wedding night with daddy's money.
My sister-in-law, jealous no. But trying her best to restrain herself and educate me in the most vicious fashion what is expected of Egyptian women and women who marry Egyptian men.
Well, she is trying but with the wrong motivation.
Still I respect her, admire her, and hope that we can be as close as sisters someday.
Posted by - Maz - (Member # 9764) on :
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I think most women just want fairness is this *judgment.*