The influence of ancient Egypt and Nubia is evident in the works of a multitude of musicians of African descent, including icons of jazz such as Miles Davis and Sun Ra and contemporary artists such as Beyoncé and Rihanna. To understand these imaginaries of ancient Egypt, created by these artists, this exhibition – Kemet: Egypt in Hip-Hop, Jazz, Soul & Funk – embarks on a journey through music history. Complementing the exhibition is a full programme of music and events related to ancient Egyptian culture, the combined total of which allows visitors to immerse themselves in the sights and sounds of music and ancient history.
In the (social) media there has been a commotion about this exhibition, because it shows Egyptian culture through the eyes of artists with African roots. Therefore, there is an additional web page with information about the content, backgrounds and goals of the exhibition. From Sun Ra to Rihanna Beyoncé and Rihanna have both appeared on stage or in music videos as the Egyptian queen Nefertiti, and the cover art for Nas’ legendary album I Am depicts him as the Egyptian pharaoh Tutankhamun. Meanwhile, back in the 1990s, the actor Eddie Murphy appeared as Pharaoh Ramses II in the music video for Michael Jackson’s Remember the Time, while virtually every Earth, Wind & Fire album cover released during this period featured an Egyptian motif or symbol. And in the subsequent decade, artists like Lauryn Hill and KRS-One would go on to rap about ancient Egyptian civilization. This ongoing phenomenon can be traced back to the 1950s, when jazz icon Sun Ra and his Arkestra began combining jazz, Egyptian themes and Afrofuturism into a style of music that evoked the space age and continues to resonate with audiences everywhere.
Kemet Ancient Egypt and Nubia have been an undeniable source of inspiration for musicians of African descent for over 70 years, with artists not only embracing and claiming these ancient African cultures, but also employing
the associated motifs as symbols of resistance, empowerment and spiritual healing. Such motifs include the name the Egyptians themselves gave their country: Kemet, ‘the black’, a reference to the fertile land along the Nile. The resulting expressions of Kemet present ancient Egyptian culture not only as historically important events and artifacts, but also as a means to discuss the present and the future. We see this in the music, lyrics and imagery employed by a whole host of jazz, funk, soul, pop, reggae and rap artists over the last few decades, including Miles Davis, Nina Simone, Prince, Fela Kuti, Erykah Badu and Nas, as well as Dutch artists such as Zwart Licht and Ray Fuego.
Music and ancient artefacts Music takes centre stage in this exhibition, its central theme brought to life with the aid of music videos, audio clips, concert recordings, photographs and album covers by famous and lesser-known musicians with a connection to ancient Egypt. The accompanying audio tour is by hip-hop artist Typhoon, and a new single by Nnelg explains the rap artist’s relationship with ancient Egypt and Nubia. Exhibition highlights include Nas’ gold mask of King Tutankhamun and several of Sun Ra’s Egyptian-inspired costumes. In addition, the exhibition explores what research can tell us about ancient Egypt. The visitor is presented a selection of age-old items from the museum collections, including sculptures and figurines of Egyptian deities, pieces of gold jewellery, hieroglyphic texts and royal portraits.
Audio tour and special events Audio tour: download in English or Dutch. The audio tour was made in collaboration with Dutch artist Typhoon. The exhibition is accompanied by a programme of special events, including concerts and lectures. For children from the age of 7, there’s a programme of arts and crafts activities over the summer holidays.
Ancient Egypt and Nubia The ancient cultures of Egypt and Nubia arose on the banks of the Nile in Africa around 5,000 years ago. These were rich and complex societies, ruled by kings and queens. The technological achievements of these civilizations included large temples in urban areas for the worship of the many gods of the Egyptian religion. These existed alongside the distinctive art and hieroglyphs that continue to command widespread admiration the world over. The National Museum of Antiquities is responsible for preserving the Netherlands’ collection of these artifacts.
Egypt is a part of Africa In Egyptology, the academic discipline that specialises in the study of ancient Egypt, Egypt has typically been treated as part of the Mediterranean region. But many artists of African descent are keen to stress the recognition of ancient Egypt as an African culture. Through their music, lyrics and visual representations, they convey their connection to the millennia-long history of the region along the Nile River, and claim this history as part of their past, present and future identity, as exemplified by the cultural phenomenon of Afrofuturism.
Partnerships This exhibition was put together with the help of several parties:
A team of external experts worked with the museum team in developing the themes and content of the exhibition as well as the related educational programmes. This team consisted of Beylula Yosef, Katayoun Arian, Kiran Sukul, Michael Ghebreab and Richard Kofi.
The exhibition design is by AFARAI studio, and was realized by the sustainable construction studio Fiction Factory. The accompanying audio tour is by hip-hop artist Typhoon, and the rapper Nnelg recorded a new single especially for the exhibition. Musical expertise was provided by DJ and music connoisseur Rob ‘Manga’ Nanere. Project curator is Dr. Daniel Soliman, curator of Ancient Egypt at the National Museum of Antiquities. He was assisted by the following academic advisers: Dr. Lara Weiss, Egyptologist and curator; Prof. Rita Lucarelli, Egyptologist specialising in ancient Egypt in Afrocentrism and Afrofuturism; and Prof. Erik Steinskog, specialist in twentieth- and twenty-first-century music. The programme of special events was organized in collaboration with a host of partners including Paradiso Amsterdam, Super-Sonic Jazz Festival, Leiden International Film Festival and Afrispectives. The exhibition was realized with support from the VriendenLoterij, the Mondriaan Fund, the VSB Fund, Sublime and Plato record store in Leiden.
The Rijksmuseum is the national museum of the Netherlands dedicated to Dutch arts and history and is located in Amsterdam. The museum is located at the Museum Square in the borough of Amsterdam South, close to the Van Gogh Museum, the Stedelijk Museum Amsterdam, and the Concertgebouw.
The Rijksmuseum was founded in The Hague on 19 November 1798 and moved to Amsterdam in 1808, where it was first located in the Royal Palace and later in the Trippenhuis.
2018 video
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Dutch museum claims Tutankhamun was black
Egypt Independent, May 17, 2023
The National Museum of Antiquities in the Netherlands organized an exhibition of Egyptian antiquities purportedly in support of the Afrocentric theory which states dark-skinned Africans were the actual rulers of ancient Egypt, according to antiquities expert Abd al-Rahim Rihan, who heads a campaign to defend the Egyptian civilization.
The exhibition presented showed a restoration of Tutankhamun’s mask portraying King Tut with black features.
According to Rihan, the National Museum of Antiquities in the Netherlands committed two grave mistakes: the first was insulting Egyptian civilization by portraying Tutankhamun as black, and the second was cloning an Egyptian antiquity.
Article 39 of the Protection of Antiquities Law No. 117 of 1983 and its amendments, stipulates that only the Supreme Council of Antiquities in Egypt may produce modern models of antiquities, provided that it is stamped by it.
The council may license others or cooperate with any party it determines to produce these models according to specifications and conditions that the council determines, Rihan said.
It is prohibited to circulate any models produced in violation of these specifications, he added.
A member of the House of Representatives Ahmed Bilal al-Burlusy submitted a request for a briefing addressed to Prime Minister Mostafa Madbouly, and Minister of Tourism and Antiquities Ahmed Issa, regarding the measures that were taken to confront the distortion of Egyptian civilization in the Amsterdam museum.
This follows the controversial Netflix “Queen Cleopatra” documentary which also supports the Afrocentric theory by casting an African to portray the titular Queen.
Former Egyptian Antiquities Minister Zahi Hawass described depicting Queen Cleopatra as a black woman as “falsifying facts”, adding that “This is completely fake. Cleopatra was Greek, meaning that she was blonde, not black.”
Queen Cleopatra, the last ruler of the Ptolemaic dynasty, was born in 69 BC and died in 30 BC in Alexandria.
The documentary received massive backlash and prompted Egypt to respond with its own film.
Yay another thread for you and your suspected Neo-Nazi brethren to complain about "the blacks"
Whilst the curator Dr. Daniel Soliman is clearly a white eurasian
I wonder if the reason behind the curator presenting this collection is going to be discussed in this thread? Or is this just going to be another thread full of whining about "blacks" and "afrocentrism"
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
A team of external experts worked with the museum team in developing the themes and content of the exhibition as well as the related educational programmes. This team consisted of
Beylula Yosef, Katayoun Arian, Kiran Sukul, Michael Ghebreab and Richard Kofi.
.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Some more information about the exhibition
quote:About the reactions to the 'Kemet' exhibitionThere has been commotion in the (social) media about the exhibition Kemet. Egypt in hip-hop, jazz, soul & funk. In response, we provide additional explanations below about the content, background and aims of the exhibition.
The museum has worked long and carefully on this exhibition with many external advisers, and fully endorses its content. The museum welcomes respectful dialogue on the cultural heritage of Egypt and Nubia. However, the museum also receives comments via social media that are racist or offensive in nature. These are not tolerated by the museum as the museum is emphatically against any form of racism and discrimination. Comments on the museum’s social media that are offensive or racist will be removed. Finally, we cordially invite everyone to visit the exhibition and form their own opinions.
Background to the ‘Kemet’ exhibition at the Leiden National Museum of Antiquities
The aim of this exhibition is twofold:
1) to show and understand the depiction of ancient Egypt and the messages in music by black artists, and 2) to show what scientific, Egyptological research can tell us about ancient Egypt and Nubia.
1) Kemet. Egypt in hip-hop, jazz, soul & funk explores music by black artists whose work refers to ancient Egypt and Nubia: music videos, record album covers, photographs and contemporary artworks. This music often reflects on experiences of black people in the West and tells stories about the African diaspora and pre-colonial Africa, including ancient Egypt as part of the African continent. The exhibition explains why ancient Egypt is important to these artists and musicians and from which cultural and intellectual movements the music emerged. Their artistic tradition in connection with ancient Egypt has not been studied before as thoroughly. The music offers relevant perspectives on how ancient Egypt has traditionally been depicted and studied in the West.
Reactions on social media show that misconceptions arise when the content of the exhibition is taken out of context, for example about the sculpture of musician Nas. The exhibition explains that this is not a replica of Tutankhamun’s mask but a contemporary artwork made in 2019 by an artist based on the cover of a 1999 record album by the musician.
2) Kemet. Egypt in hip-hop, jazz, soul & funk showcases ancient Egyptian and Nubian objects to illustrate what archaeological and Egyptological research tells us about ancient Egyptian and Nubian cultures. Through the objects, elements in the music are interpreted, illustrated and sometimes contrasted. Current public and academic discussions are discussed, for example on the skin colours of the ancient Egyptians. The exhibition discusses how ancient Egypt has been studied from Eurocentric and Afrocentric perspectives. Afrocentrism looks at history and society from a pan-African point of view and the perspective of black African diaspora communities. You can sometimes see and hear this in the music in the exhibition. The music, for instance, reveals biases in historiography and counters anti-black racism. This is important to the museum.
Contemporary Egyptian perspectives on ancient Egypt are also important to the museum and are regularly featured in exhibitions and events at the museum. It is currently part of an art exhibition at the museum. In addition, the discussion on cultural appropriation and the meaning of ancient Egypt for contemporary Egyptians is a small part of the Kemet exhibition.
You can read more about the exhibition on the exhibition page Kemet and anyone with questions can contact info@rmo.nl.
Daniel Soliman is Curator Egyptian Collections at The National Museum of Antiquities, Leiden
I don't know what is ethnicity he is The last name Soliman is most numerous in Egypt though and he posted on this Islam blog although these things don't prove anything
stupid people look at a person and assume they know what their ancestry is
_____________________
The one defending the Museum exhibit in article quotes I've seen (quotes in the OP) is the Museum Director Wim Weijland
___________________
I didn't say there's anything bad about the exhibit Some people who think there is are jumping in to blame "white" curators (or whoever you want to point to)
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Some more information about the exhibition
quote:Background to the ‘Kemet’ exhibition at the Leiden National Museum of Antiquities
The aim of this exhibition is twofold:
1) to show and understand the depiction of ancient Egypt and the messages in music by black artists, and 2) to show what scientific, Egyptological research can tell us about ancient Egypt and Nubia.
sounds reasonable
Posted by Shebitku (Member # 23742) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lionman:
stupid people look at a person and assume they know what their ancestry is
Soliman/Suleyman is a Turkish last name.
It's as Turkish as Mcgoldrick or Keane is Irish, but keep the ad hominems up Im here for it you suspected Neo-Nazi pig.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Suleiman (Arabic:سُلِيمَان
is the Arabic name of the Quranic king and Islamic prophet Solomon meaning "man of peace", derived from the Hebrew name Shlomo.
The name is also spelt as Sulaiman, Suleman, Soliman,Sulayman, Sulyman, Suleyman, Sulaman, Süleyman, Sulejman, Sleiman, Suliman, Solomon, Soleman, Solyman, Souleymane.
The name Suleiman is a diminutive of the name Salman (سَلْمان salmān). Both names stem from the male name Salaam.
^ This has what to do with the fact that he is white and likely eurasian?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shebitku:
I wonder if the reason behind the curator presenting this collection is going to be discussed in this thread?
Let us know, what's the reason?
Also if the curator is "white" I don't give a damn, so what I'm just posting info on this exhibit.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
One of the museum's artifacts
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
KEMET
Egypt in Hip-Hop, Jazz, Soul & Funk
The Rijksmuseum
I'm going to make a prediction, I could be wrong but I think controversy on this exhibit may last for several days but I don't think it's going to last long
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Hey lioness
why did they strip ur moderator privileges
were you misbehaving
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Someone started a petition against the exhibition
Quote from the petition
quote: We, the undersigned, express our deep concern regarding the misrepresentation of ownership of cultural heritage through deceptive practices. We urge the National Museum of Antiquities – Leiden, The Netherlands, to reconsider its upcoming exhibition, 'Kemet: EGYPT in Hip Hop, Jazz, Soul, and Funk,' and to take steps to ensure that the exhibition does not misrepresent the cultural heritage and identity of the Egyptian community.
We recognize that the civilization of ancient Egypt is a unique and treasured part of our collective history and the identity of the Egyptian people. We believe that it belongs solely to the Egyptians, and it is essential to protect their cultural identity and heritage from being appropriated or misrepresented.
We call upon the National Museum of Antiquities – Leiden, The Netherlands, to abide by the international agreements and conventions established by UNESCO and WIPO as legal instruments for protecting cultural heritage and identity. These agreements emphasize the importance of safeguarding the cultural expressions of communities, including their language, traditional knowledge, and cultural practices.
Therefore, we ask that the National Museum of Antiquities – Leiden, The Netherlands, take immediate steps to ensure that the 'Kemet: EGYPT in Hip Hop, Jazz, Soul, and Funk' exhibition does not misrepresent or appropriate the cultural heritage of the Egyptian community. We further request that the museum consults with the Egyptian community to ensure that the exhibition accurately represents their cultural identity and heritage.
We believe this petition is an opportunity to promote respect for cultural diversity and human creativity, as outlined in the UNESCO Universal Declaration on Cultural Diversity and the UNESCO Convention for the Safeguarding of Intangible Cultural Heritage.
Interesting to see how many will sign the petition
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
^ if only the actual Egyptians had a petition made for them when their culture was stolen
P.S. I doubt many people will sign it
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Someone started a petition against the exhibition
Quote from the petition
quote: ....we ask that the National Museum of Antiquities – Leiden, The Netherlands, take immediate steps to ensure that the 'Kemet: EGYPT in Hip Hop, Jazz, Soul, and Funk' exhibition does not misrepresent or appropriate the cultural heritage of the Egyptian community. We further request that the museum consults with the Egyptian community to ensure that the exhibition accurately represents their cultural identity and heritage.
Interesting to see how many will sign the petition
Would you advise Egyptians to sign a petition where no particular problem is described and asking for steps to be taken with no description of the steps?
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Indeed the petition seems rather vague. If they had demanded the exhibition to be shut down at least it would have been a more concrete measure to contemplate.
I actually think they make a too big issue of the whole thing. But identity is obviously a very touchy subject.
And accusations of cultural appropriation is rather common today, concerning everything from dreadlocks to art, to food and dance and other things.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [QB] Someone started a petition against the exhibition
Quote from the petition
I have also noticed that in the image here it says
Kemet Egypte in hiphop,jazz & funk
However if you look at the image at the top of the thread, the English page for the exhibit
That is the same image and although the text describes Egypt in hiphop,jazz & funk that version of the image merely says "Kemet" on it without "Egypt in hiphop,jazz & funk"
These are the little games they play
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
There is a section that moves in the top of their page. There you can see the full text. The petition seems to use the Dutch version
English version
Dutch version
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: There is a section that moves in the top of their page.
ok, I missed that part
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Seems that those who made the petition have edited the text some and centered the word "Kemet" over the the text under it. They also edited away "Nu Te Zien". They also seem to have enhanced the word "Kemet".
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Now the TikTokers have found the exhibition. Here is one Egyptian girl reacting over it:
https://www.tiktok.com/@jana_osamaa/video/7223573697473318150 Don't' you find it peculiar that this Egyptian girl on TikTok is so adamant that this full lipped gold mask of Tutankhamun has no "sub-Saharan" traits? And the nose while not particularly wide on the mask has somewhat round nostrils, some prognathism Jana above, in this one except TikTok of hers without makeup covering the cute freckles, I think she herself has some "Sub-Saharan" qualities to her overall face, although lighter than most .
Look at the comparison of each person to Tutankhamun
Does the President of Egypt have a nose more like Nas? Could it be?
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
It is interesting some of these young people say that Egyptians come in all colors from dark to very light. But at the same time they are rather particular in separating Egyptians from Sub Saharan Africans. They sound a bit like Zahi Hawass when he claims that Egyptians are a race of their own.
Interesting by the way to see a muslim girl with a hijab also wearing an ankh.
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
lioness
will you ever talk to me again
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Another article about the exhibition, on Artnet news
Excerpts:
quote:A Sculpture Depicting King Tut as a Black Man Is Sparking International Outrage
“This is a very difficult topic and that is the thing with this exhibition: I think you really have to give it a chance,” Daniel Soliman, museum’s Egyptian and Nubian curator, told The Art Newspaper. “There are Egyptians, or Egyptians in the diaspora, who believe that the pharaonic heritage is exclusively their own. The topic of the imagination of ancient Egypt in music, predominantly from the African diaspora, Black artists in different styles, jazz, soul, funk, hip-hop, had long been ignored.”
Nevertheless, the exhibition’s thesis has led to backlash, particularly due to the David Cortes statue, I Am Hip Hop. The 2019 sculpture is based on the 1999 Nas album I Am…, in which the African American rapper was photographed to look like the famed mask of King Tut.
An outraged article titled “Dutch museum claims Tutankhamun was Black” in the Egypt Independent cited a complaint from Egyptian antiquities expert Abd al-Rahim Rihan. Not only does the statue inaccurately depict King Tut’s race, he claimed, the artist has actually created an unauthorized copy of an Egyptian antiquity, which can only be produced by the nation’s Supreme Council of Antiquities under Article 39 of the Protection of Antiquities Law No. 117 of 1983.
The claim has reportedly prompted an official inquiry from Ahmed Bilal al-Burlusy, a member House of Representatives, as to whether Cortes violated Egyptian law. (The piece is a contemporary artwork, not a replica, the museum said in a statement.)
But the exhibition has also fueled long-running arguments about racial identity and cultural appropriation, including on the Facebook group Egyptian History Defenders, which describes itself “defending Egyptian history and heritage against Afrocentric culture vultures.”
quote: “The exhibition does not claim the ancient Egyptians were Black, but explores music by Black artists who refer to ancient Egypt and Nubia in their work: music videos, covers of record albums, photos, and contemporary artworks,” museum director Wim Weijland said. “The exhibition also acknowledges that the music can be perceived as cultural appropriation, and recognizes that large groups of contemporary Egyptians feel that the pharaonic past is exclusively their heritage.”
So it alsoo leads to the question who owns the past?
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Maybe one can think that the Egyptians would concentrate their efforts more on getting back all the artifacts and monuments that are housed in museums all over Europe and also in America. Such efforts have been done but it obviously takes more since there is still thousands, if not millions of ancient Egyptian objects in foreign museums.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Egypt bans Dutch archaeology team from Saqqara due to museum’s ‘Afrocentric’ exhibition
Nadeen Ebrahim, CNN Published 8:59 AM EDT, Wed June 7, 2023
CNN — A team of archaeologists from a Dutch museum has been banned from carrying out excavations in Egypt’s rich Saqqara necropolis, after the museum mounted an exhibition that drew condemnation from Egyptian authorities.
After the opening of “Kemet: Egypt in Hip Hop, Jazz, Soul & Funk,” the National Museum of Antiquities (RMO) in Leiden received an email from the head of foreign missions of the Egyptian Antiquities Service saying that the museum is “falsifying history” with its “Afrocentric” approach, Dutch newspaper NRC reported on Monday.
Wim Weijland, the museum’s managing director, confirmed to CNN via email that the Egyptian authorities have denied the institution a permit for the next excavation season at Saqqara. He also confirmed that the journalist who wrote the NRC article had seen the email from the Egyptian authorities.
A vast burial ground that sits nearly 20 miles south of the capital Cairo, Saqqara is home to Egypt’s oldest pyramid, the pyramid of Djoser, and has been the site of multiple important discoveries in recent years.
The museum has been carrying out annual excavations there for more than 40 years. Its most recent excavation campaign took place earlier this year, between February 19 and March 23.
“The Rijksmuseum van Oudheden has been working at Saqqara since 1975,” Weijland told CNN. “For the upcoming season, the museum has been denied the permit to excavate here.”
Weijland said the reason for the permit’s denial is the “presumed ‘falsifying history’ in the current exhibition,” adding that the museum is trying to “open the dialogue” with the Egyptian authorities about the matter.
Mostafa Waziri, secretary-general of the Supreme Council of Antiquities of Egypt, did not respond to CNN’s request for comment.
Weijland went on to say that the aim of the “Kemet” exhibition is “to show and understand the depiction of ancient Egypt and the messages in music by black artists,” as well as to “show what scientific, Egyptological research can tell us about ancient Egypt and Nubia.”
Nubia is an ancient region in northeast Africa that extends from the Nile River valley in Egypt, all the way down to Khartoum in modern-day Sudan. The area was once home to the Nubian Kingdom of Kush, or the “Black Pharaohs.”
According to its web page, the exhibition, which opened in April and runs until September 3, “embarks on a journey through music history” and looks at “the influence of ancient Egypt and Nubia…in the works of a multitude of musicians of African descent, including icons of jazz such as Miles Davis and Sun Ra and contemporary artists such as Beyoncé and Rihanna.”
In recent days, the museum’s social media posts about the exhibition were flooded with comments, mostly by Egyptians who deemed it disrespectful. Some commented with photos showing light-skinned ancient Egyptian drawings, next to ones with darker skin tones, which they say the museum is propagating.
In response to the controversy, the museum added a note on its website with further information about the show’s content, background and goals. It also said it would remove offensive or racist comments from its social media platforms.
The museum encouraged visitors to “visit the exhibition and form their own opinions,” saying it “welcomes respectful dialogue on the cultural heritage of Egypt and Nubia.”
This isn’t the first time Egypt has objected to the depiction of its ancient ancestors. It recently criticized the Netflix docuseries “Queen Cleopatra,” which portrays the ruler of the Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt as a woman of color.
Zahi Hawass, an Egyptologist and former Egyptian minister of antiquities, wrote last month that “no one with even a little education could make a film showing Cleopatra as black.”
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
More about the ban
Translated from Dutch
quote:Egypt angry about exhibition: Leiden museum is no longer allowed to do excavations in Egyptian necropolis
NRC, June 5
National Museum of Antiquities Egypt is angry about the Kemet exhibition , now on display in Leiden. The Leiden museum is no longer allowed to carry out excavations there.
The Leiden National Museum of Antiquities (RMO) is no longer allowed to carry out excavations in the famous Egyptian necropolis Sakkara, as a result of the Kemet exhibition. Egypt in Hip Hop, Jazz, Soul & Funk . In an e-mail, the head of Foreign Missions of the Egyptian Antiquities Service writes that the museum is guilty of "falsifying history" because of the "Afrocentric" approach of the exhibition.
In the exhibition, the museum goes in search of “the significance of ancient Egypt and Nubia in the work of artists from the African diaspora”. Shortly after the opening at the end of April , a flood of negative and sometimes racist reactions from Egypt came through social media . The RMO was accused of participating in the appropriation of Egyptian culture by black artists from the United States. This fuss is now having sensitive consequences, because the RMO has been active in Sakkara every year since 1975 and is leading an excavation there with partners.
Director Wim Weijland is touched by the decision of the Egyptian authorities, but also very angry about the accusation of falsifying history. “That is indecent. This exhibition has been made with great care. Scientists don't blame each other like that. I therefore want that qualification to be taken back.”
The museum will formally object to the decision, says Weijland. “And we have asked our partner, the Egyptian Museum in Turin, to take over our concession. Hopefully that will work, then the work can at least continue.”
'The reason for this is not good'
Curator Daniel Soliman worked on the exhibition and has been visiting Sakkara regularly in recent years. “Egypt can handle that excavation as they please, because it is their country. But the reason why they do this is wrong. No one has come to look at the exhibition and no one from the Antiquities Service has yet contacted us about its contents. All the fuss comes from images that have been released from their context.”
Soliman, who is half-Egyptian himself, thinks that the Egyptian reaction to Kemet is so strong because of surging nationalism and anti-black racism in that country. “And of course there is the fact that ancient Egypt has often been spoken about without involving contemporary Egyptians, especially from the West. That is still very sensitive.”
The RMO would like to talk to the Egyptian antiquarian authorities, says Weijland. “When the commotion broke out, we wrote a letter explaining our exhibition. We know they read it, but they choose not to respond.”
The museum would like to return to Sakkara, but will not pay any price, according to the director. “We are not going to make excuses and we will not adjust the exhibition. I am willing to add a sign with Egyptian commentary, but then someone has to come and have a look first.”
Image from the exhibition Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
I assume that the museum has done other exhibits like this, documenting media/music social trends
I wonder about the timing of this exhibit, if it was already planned to come out at this time with all the controversy over the Netflix Cleopatra going on at the same time.
Maybe this is some sort of strategy that critics will have to split their time getting mad at both but to me it looks like the worse timing possible unless their goal is maximum agitation. we can see it has lead to consequences
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Lioness why are you no longer a mod
This is a travesty
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I assume that the museum has done other exhibits like this, documenting media/music social trends
I wonder about the timing of this exhibit, if it was already planned to come out at this time with all the controversy over the Netflix Cleopatra going on at the same time.
Maybe this is some sort of strategy that critics will have to split their time getting mad at both but to me it looks like the worse timing possible unless their goal is maximum agitation. we can see it has lead to consequences
One can wonder if this ban at all would have occurred if it not had been for the Netflix Cleopatra controversy.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
A couple of the artists mentioned in connection to the exhibition
Rihanna, Eddie Murphy, Beyoncé, Sun Ra
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^ the would be good with video links
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^ the would be good with video links
I found a couple of videos with these artists and their connection with Ancient Egypt
A Solar-Ship Voyage: The Ancient Egyptian Religion as Inspiration in the Life and Music of Sun Ra (2021) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVAhg56aHDU Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Talking about a black actress playing a very ancient Egyptian queen, we should not forget Aliyah in her role as the vampire queen Akasha in the film Queen of the Damned (2002) after a novel by Ann Rice. I have not heard if the Egyptians ever protested against that film.
The Nile Valley Collective website has examples of how the Nile Valley civilizations influenced popular culture around the world, inspired by the controversial Dutch exhibit.
I don't see the anti-Black racist Egyptians getting as hung up about these other examples as they are the Dutch exhibit.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
As regarding films there has been different reasons for Egyptians banning films, not only because some black actor playing Egyptian historical persons. Many times films have been banned out of religious reasons. Other times it has been because some actors supported Israel, or Israeli actors wanted to play Egyptians. So the reasons can be different and they might also change depending on the political climate in Egypt at a special time.
The controversy is because black people in America decided to dress like ancient Nile Valley Africans. And the people of Egypt today don't see themselves as Africans and are trying to argue that the ancient Nile Valley Kingdom wasn't African. Obviously it just shows how far these people will go to promote anti black/anti African propaganda.
And there are some folks who literally believe that this is a legitimate complaint which is why they are bringing it up here as if this forum hasn't been discussing this topic to death for decades. But I guess they feel this is ammo for them to promote such propaganda against Africans "appropriating" African history.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Maybe it is not so much about Africans appropriating African history but more about Americans appropriating that history. But I can agree with that they make a difference if Black Americans or White Americans do it.
Posted by Kimbles (Member # 23765) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Maybe it is not so much about Africans appropriating African history but more about Americans appropriating that history. But I can agree with that they make a difference if Black Americans or White Americans do it.
Its about dark skinned individuals "appropriating" their history. Don't play dumb..
It has everything to do with "black" Africans. They even do not believe the darker skinned native Egyptians that live in the South are descendants of Ancient Egyptians. It has nothing to do with Americans, please.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
I do not claim Japanese history even if many Japanese people have similar skin color as I have. I do not claim Greek or Roman history even if I am European like they are. I do not even claim British history even if many Brits look the same as me.
I can understand if dark skinned Egyptians want to claim ancient Egypt, but often one see African Americans online claiming Egypt. Still most of them have nothing to do with Egypt at all.
In the case of the exhibition in the OP, Egyptians felt that the mostly African American artists who were presented misrepresented ancient Egyptian culture. Seems the Egyptians do not want their ancient culture being associated with black American pop culture. So in the case of Netflix Cleopatra or the Dutch exhibition it had to do with America.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: I do not claim Japanese history even if many Japanese people have similar skin color as I have. I do not claim Greek or Roman history even if I am European like they are. I do not even claim British history even if many Brits look the same as me.
I can understand if dark skinned Egyptians want to claim ancient Egypt, but often one see African Americans online claiming Egypt. Still most of them have nothing to do with Egypt at all.
In the case of the exhibition in the OP, Egyptians felt that the mostly African American artists who were presented misrepresented ancient Egyptian culture. Seems the Egyptians do not want their ancient culture being associated with black American pop culture. So in the case of Netflix Cleopatra or the Dutch exhibition it had to do with America.
You are talking about "claiming"
They mention that word twice in the Kemet exhibit intro
Ancient Egypt and Nubia have been an undeniable source of inspiration for musicians of African descent for over 70 years, with artists not only embracing and claiming these ancient African cultures, but also employing...
Egypt is a part of Africa In Egyptology, the academic discipline that specialises in the study of ancient Egypt, Egypt has typically been treated as part of the Mediterranean region. But many artists of African descent are keen to stress the recognition of ancient Egypt as an African culture. Through their music, lyrics and visual representations, they convey their connection to the millennia-long history of the region along the Nile River, and claim this history as part of their past, [/b]present and future identity, as exemplified by the cultural phenomenon of Afrofuturism.
but what is "claiming" here?
It seems vague someone can claim they are say, a descendant of Napoleon but it's just empty talk unless they try to take possession of something or get some special entitlement
Nas had himself depicted in Egyptian garb a couple of times but it's not common he even raps about anything Egyptian
So where does this "claim" threat come in?
In the past it had been claimed that Egypt was part of the "Near East", divorcing it from Africa
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Seems some African Americans claiming, or feeling a sort of connection with ancient Egypt, even if they are not Egyptians or have any relatives or descendancy from Egypt. I wonder if Egypt had been a pure "white" civilisation, with blonde people would African Americans felt that connection? Probably not. Only reason is skin color or perceived skin color. To obsess over another culture just because of skin color seems a bit odd, and a product of racial thinking. As if similar skin color makes people have anything in common.
But I can agree that some Egyptians overreact concerning Netflix Cleopatra or the Dutch exhibition. But they have also banned other products of American (and other Western) popular culture (like films) because of religious or political reasons. There were protests against Gal Gadot as Cleopatra even if the film was not made, and also films with biblical figures have been banned. So they do not only ban things out of racial reasons.
But people online claiming that todays Egyptians are just invaders and do not belong in Egypt does not improve the situation. Egyptians are also on the net and see those things.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Here is just one of the people online who want to deny the modern Egyptians their heritage
So what do you want done about it?
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Maybe the kind of people like the guy above will never listen to Egyptians and even less to Europeans. Maybe he and his likes will only listen to other African Americans:
And some African Americans are actually making an effort to challenge the most extreme versions of Afrocentrism. One of them is YouTuber Chief X. Here is one of his videos
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Maybe the kind of people like the guy above will never listen to Egyptians and even less to Europeans. Maybe he and his likes will only listen to other African Americans:
And some African Americans are actually making an effort to challenge the most extreme versions of Afrocentrism. One of them is YouTuber Chief X. Here is one of his videos
In Chief X's videos he says the Egyptians were Caucasoid but neither black nor white
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
One must always take the statements of YouTubers with a grain of salt. None of the above mentioned guys are professional Egyptologists, historians, archaeologists or anthropologists. But still guys like the first one who claims that todays Egyptians do not belong in Egypt and should be expelled, need to be challenged.
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
Chief X's also has a couple of videos called were A group nubians Caucasoids/Caucasian?
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Chief X seems to have gained some popularity among Egyptians online
Here he figures in a short video by Kemet Queen (Nora)
Seems the YouTuber ShezmuOperative (the guy mentioned above) has a slight obsession with Kemet Queen (Nora). He made several videos where he attacks her.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [QB] One must always take the statements of YouTubers with a grain of salt. None of the above mentioned guys are professional Egyptologists, historians, archaeologists or anthropologists.
yet you are constantly promoting Nora and Chief X
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
They are just a couple of voices on the net, a kind of opposite pole against some of the Afrocentric armchair historians online.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
A video which discusses the Dutch exhibition in a broader context
quote: Controversy has fallen on an exhibition at the National Museum of Antiquities (Rijksmuseum van Oudheden) in Leiden, Netherlands for its exhibition: Kemet (The Black Lands). The Egyptian Government has banned a Dutch team of archaeologists from continuing their decades-long excavation at the World Heritage site Saqqara, which is served as a burial site from the earliest days of Ancient Egypt and is home to the civilization’s oldest pyramid.
The government’s accusation: “Insulting Egyptian civilization by portraying Tutankhamun as Black” and falsifying history by forwarding Afrocentric pseudohistory about Egyptian civilization being built by Black people. But hold on a goshdarned minute; the Kemet exhibition is about how the image of Ancient Egypt has heavily influenced hip-hop, jazz, soul, and funk music. Well, that doesn’t sound at all like what they’ve been accused of!
Find out in this episode what the power of using the cultural brand of Egypt has to do with emancipation, liberation, resilience, and dreams of the future in the African diaspora, and how the Egyptian government is trying to control what ‘is Egypt’ to promote their power, bring in badly needed tourism money, and ban music called Mahraganat created by the working class that has been associated with the Arab Spring.
The video is made by Dr Paul Edward Montgomery Ramirez a Nicaraguan-American archaeologist and decolonial heritage specialist.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The video is made by Dr Paul Edward Montgomery Ramirez a Nicaraguan-American archaeologist and decolonial heritage specialist.
I watched this it was pretty good
Dr. Paul Edward Montgomery Ramírez
Dr. Paul Edward Montgomery Ramírez, an adjunct professor in the Department of Criminology, Anthropology, and Sociology (CAS)(Cleveland State University) and a compliance officer for the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act (NAGPRA) program, has published a new article, titled 'The Deer and the Donkey: Indigenous Ritual and Survivance in Nicaragua’s El Güegüense.' The article, published in Latin American Research Review, discusses Indigenous resistance against colonization in both history and in modern days. The survival of the indigenous Chorotega culture and spirituality is an under-researched (and to some, controversial) topic.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kimbles: Its about dark skinned individuals "appropriating" their history. Don't play dumb..
It has everything to do with "black" Africans. They even do not believe the darker skinned native Egyptians that live in the South are descendants of Ancient Egyptians. It has nothing to do with Americans, please. [/QB]
Their History ? What is the connection between Americans of West African descent and Egypt ?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Africa. Elizabeth Taylor can't claim that
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Maybe it is not so much about Africans appropriating African history but more about Americans appropriating that history. But I can agree with that they make a difference if Black Americans or White Americans do it.
This thread is about a Dutch museum and has nothing to do with America. But for some reason you keep making these threads and going off the topic to suggest that somehow any and all "backlash" against the idea of black people in the African Nile Valley is somehow legit and historically valid. I mean you are using these threads to attack and or promote random individuals on youtube in trying to fabricate some narrative about Africans not being in African history. None of what you are saying is making absolutely any sense.
The internet is open to anybody and everybody and there is a lot of nonsense and pseudoscience in historical scholarship. But that has nothing to do with this Dutch museum exhibit which is simply about modern pop culture which uses many different historical cultures as inspiration. And the Nile Valley is in Africa so it is absurd to say that Africans have no right to emulate ancient history on the Nile, when it is African to begin with.
And again since this Dutch museum display is about hip hop and black music using elements from the history of the Nile, why isn't appropriation when modern Egypt loves rap music? Sounds like so much hypocrisy to me, because I don't see black people being outraged about it. This discussion is especially dumb when a main component of rap is sampling which can be from music of any culture. So this whole conversation is stupid.
Archeopteryx is just Lioness with a different name.
Lioness was the first one who used to spam pseudo youtube channels
SOME EXACT M.O.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
stop trolling
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote: Originally posted by Doug M This thread is about a Dutch museum and has nothing to do with America. But for some reason you keep making these threads and going off the topic to suggest that somehow any and all "backlash" against the idea of black people in the African Nile Valley is somehow legit and historically valid. I mean you are using these threads to attack and or promote random individuals on youtube in trying to fabricate some narrative about Africans not being in African history. None of what you are saying is making absolutely any sense.
Of course it has to do with America since the exhibition had several example of African American artists who used all sorts of Ancient Egyptian symbols, artifacts and clothes.
And talking about the net, there you can even find African Americans who want to expel the modern Egyptians out of Egypt as I already shown.
quote: The internet is open to anybody and everybody and there is a lot of nonsense and pseudoscience in historical scholarship. But that has nothing to do with this Dutch museum exhibit which is simply about modern pop culture which uses many different historical cultures as inspiration. And the Nile Valley is in Africa so it is absurd to say that Africans have no right to emulate ancient history on the Nile, when it is African to begin with.
The exhibition was not so much about Africans but much of its content was about African Americans, most of which has lost their authentic connection with their ancestors. Ancestors they anyway would not find in Egypt.
quote: And again since this Dutch museum display is about hip hop and black music using elements from the history of the Nile, why isn't appropriation when modern Egypt loves rap music? Sounds like so much hypocrisy to me, because I don't see black people being outraged about it. This discussion is especially dumb when a main component of rap is sampling which can be from music of any culture. So this whole conversation is stupid.
Not all Egyptians love rap music. At least not by the governing elite. They seem not to like when Ancient Egyptian culture becomes associated with African American pop culture.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: Archeopteryx is just Lioness with a different name.
Lioness was the first one who used to spam pseudo youtube channels
SOME EXACT M.O.
So we must be the same person just because we do not automatically buy all Afrocentric narratives we hear about?
And I also seen Afrocentric pseudo bs videos being spammed here on ES. Maybe you could complain about them for a while?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Of course it has to do with America since the exhibition had several example of African American artists who used all sorts of Ancient Egyptian symbols, artifacts and clothes.
The Dutch aren't Americans is the point. Apparently you feel that the Dutch putting on this display is an "American issue", when these people are not going directly to any of these artists and telling them not to dress this way. If they really wanted to address America they would have gone to the source would they not?
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: And talking about the net, there you can even find African Americans who want to expel the modern Egyptians out of Egypt as I already shown.
And what does that have to do with a Dutch Museum presentation about Nile Valley influence on pop culture? Is "expelling modern Egyptians out of Egypt" in that exhibition? If not, why are you including it?
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: The exhibition was not so much about Africans but much of its content was about African Americans, most of which has lost their authentic connection with their ancestors. Ancestors they anyway would not find in Egypt.
It isn't about "Africans" but it is about the ancient Nile Valley which is African. So it is about ancient Africans and Africans in America. So what you are saying is that the ancient Nile Valley culture and kingdom was not African and no Africans have any right to identify or emulate it. Which is nothing but anti African and anti black propaganda. And you keep bringing up these threads to promote that propaganda. Because none of what you are saying has anything to do with facts.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Not all Egyptians love rap music. At least not by the governing elite. They seem not to like when Ancient Egyptian culture becomes associated with African American pop culture.
Man stop with your psychobabble. The most popular music in Egypt right now today is rap. Do you hear anybody from America whining and complaining about appropriation? Of course not, because influence in culture is a common thing and not rare or unique. But somehow, modern pop music being influenced by ancient cultures around the world is a problem according to these clowns. And you sitting here defending this nonsense and trying to make it seem legitimate is the problem. And that is just on the level of modern pop culture which has always looked abroad for various influences in contemporary and ancient sources. But beyond that, you want to use this as some kind of proxy argument about what is and isn't African history as if ancient Africans did not populate the Nile Valley and that the NIle Valley isn't part of African history and culture and that Africans should not identify with it. It is the same old debate that has been on this forum for years, but rather than get beat down with facts you want to hide behind these absurd antics about a Dutch Museum exhibit.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: Archeopteryx is just Lioness with a different name.
Lioness was the first one who used to spam pseudo youtube channels
SOME EXACT M.O.
So we must be the same person just because we do not automatically buy all Afrocentric narratives we hear about?
And I also seen Afrocentric pseudo bs videos being spammed here on ES. Maybe you could complain about them for a while?
and this after me saying that African Americans can say the Egyptians are of the same continents whereas Elizabeth Taylor, Ridley Scott, etc cannot
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The video is made by Dr Paul Edward Montgomery Ramirez a Nicaraguan-American archaeologist and decolonial heritage specialist.
Doug I don't know to what extent Archeopteryx agrees with this but you will probably agree with some of it
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote: Originally poste by Doug M The Dutch aren't Americans is the point. Apparently you feel that the Dutch putting on this display is an "American issue", when these people are not going directly to any of these artists and telling them not to dress this way. If they really wanted to address America they would have gone to the source would they not?
The Dutch are not Americans, but they made an exhibition about Egypt in American pop culture. Seems to be enough to irritate Egyptians
quote: And what does that have to do with a Dutch Museum presentation about Nile Valley influence on pop culture? Is "expelling modern Egyptians out of Egypt" in that exhibition? If not, why are you including it?
Well such net trolls probably help to stir up certain negative feelings among Egyptians, which further fuels the Egyptian disdain for African American culture
quote:It isn't about "Africans" but it is about the ancient Nile Valley which is African. So it is about ancient Africans and Africans in America. So what you are saying is that the ancient Nile Valley culture and kingdom was not African and no Africans have any right to identify or emulate it. Which is nothing but anti African and anti black propaganda. And you keep bringing up these threads to promote that propaganda. Because none of what you are saying has anything to do with facts.
Africans Americans have mostly no ties to the Nile valley. Most African Americans do not descend from the Nile Valley.
African Americans can of course do what they like, but they can not demand that everyone will approve of it, as many Egyptians obviously not do.
Most African Americans have lost their ties to Africa. You do not become African just because your ancestors came from there centuries ago or you happen to have same skin color.
Or as Chief X (an African American ) says about some African Americans obsession with Egypt or Nubia:
quote:A woman from Cambodia would never call herself an Iranian Queen, being from Cambodia. But Black African Americans with an identity crisis would call themselves a Nubian Queen, when they are really from West and Central Africa. You all see what I am saying? It is a continent, not a country. Everybody else who wasn´t afflicted by the transatlantic slave trade understands this. People on the continent of Asia they don´t all claim each other as one people. It´s not all Asia love. It´s not all that with continental Africans, this is just a thing specifically for Black Americans because we have an identity crisis. We have the confusion
quote: Man stop with your psychobabble. The most popular music in Egypt right now today is rap. Do you hear anybody from America whining and complaining about appropriation? Of course not, because influence in culture is a common thing and not rare or unique. But somehow, modern pop music being influenced by ancient cultures around the world is a problem according to these clowns. And you sitting here defending this nonsense and trying to make it seem legitimate is the problem. And that is just on the level of modern pop culture which has always looked abroad for various influences in contemporary and ancient sources. But beyond that, you want to use this as some kind of proxy argument about what is and isn't African history as if ancient Africans did not populate the Nile Valley and that the Nile Valley isn't part of African history and culture and that Africans should not identify with it. It is the same old debate that has been on this forum for years, but rather than get beat down with facts you want to hide behind these absurd antics about a Dutch Museum exhibit.
All people in the world do not like rap and similar American pop culture. There are more or less conservative people in the world who do not buy into that.
I remember one time when they tried to involve some rap music in a St Lucy celebration here in Sweden, St Lucy is a traditional midwinter ceremony where young girls dress up in white clothes with candles in their hair, and sing Christmas songs, often together with a choir. This specific Christmas some genius came up on the idea to present a rapper who rapped two tunes in the TV sent traditional St Lucy celebration. And the rapper was not black (but an immigrant). Thousands of people got rather upset and wrote to the TV company, wrote articles in newspapers and wrote on the net to protest against what many saw as blasphemy. So no, all people do not love rap and similar variants of American mass culture.
So also in Egypt.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: Archeopteryx is just Lioness with a different name.
Lioness was the first one who used to spam pseudo youtube channels
SOME EXACT M.O.
So we must be the same person just because we do not automatically buy all Afrocentric narratives we hear about?
And I also seen Afrocentric pseudo bs videos being spammed here on ES. Maybe you could complain about them for a while?
and this after me saying that African Americans can say the Egyptians are of the same continents whereas Elizabeth Taylor, Ridley Scott, etc cannot
Most African Americans have not even sat their foot in Egypt or Africa. They are hardly Africans anymore.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
in the center A mannequin from an earlier 2016-17 exhibit or artifacts at the Rijksmuseum, Koninginnen van de Nijl (Queens of the Nile)
Marwan Moussa is hungry for more The multi-award-winning Egyptian rapper has millions of fans. He portrays himself as a chill, laid-back guy stumbling into projects. The reality is, he’s got a plan for global success.
quote:When we settle down to talk, Marwan Moussa is in his studio in Maadi, a leafy suburban neighborhood south of Cairo. The studio is in Moussa’s apartment. “It’s just a room,” he says laughing. But the music written and recorded in that room has taken the Egyptian – and by extension Arab and African – rap scene by storm.
quote: Born to a father from Ismaila, on the bank of the Suez Canal, and a German mother, 28-year-old Moussa doesn’t fit the typical profile of an Egyptian rapper. I ask if he takes heat on social media being a middle class kid in a working class environment. He chuckles. “I get s*** for that. People say ‘oh he didn’t struggle’.”
He says his looks made it even easier to fit him into a stereotype, the fact his mother is German and that DNA is visible. Moussa doesn’t go out of his way to build cred through manufactured toughness. He tells the story of a feud he had a few years back, another rapper was coming at him for ‘being soft.’ Moussa responded the only way he knows how, through his music. “At the end of the day, rap wins. He had this persona, he was being hard. All of that. But he couldn’t write a song like mine.
quote:
One of the things he’s doing it winning awards. Lots of them. In January, he took home Best African Rapper, Best Breakthrough Artist and Best Artist in African Hip-Hop at the All Africa Music Awards in Dakkar, Senegal. “It means so much to me, because we are part the continent, but we don’t show it enough. We’re not in touch with our African side enough as North African Arabs,” says Moussa.
quote: Originally posted by Doug M This thread is about a Dutch museum and has nothing to do with America. But for some reason you keep making these threads and going off the topic to suggest that somehow any and all "backlash" against the idea of black people in the African Nile Valley is somehow legit and historically valid. I mean you are using these threads to attack and or promote random individuals on youtube in trying to fabricate some narrative about Africans not being in African history. None of what you are saying is making absolutely any sense.
Of course it has to do with America since the exhibition had several example of African American artists who used all sorts of Ancient Egyptian symbols, artifacts and clothes.
And talking about the net, there you can even find African Americans who want to expel the modern Egyptians out of Egypt as I already shown.
quote: The internet is open to anybody and everybody and there is a lot of nonsense and pseudoscience in historical scholarship. But that has nothing to do with this Dutch museum exhibit which is simply about modern pop culture which uses many different historical cultures as inspiration. And the Nile Valley is in Africa so it is absurd to say that Africans have no right to emulate ancient history on the Nile, when it is African to begin with.
The exhibition was not so much about Africans but much of its content was about African Americans, most of which has lost their authentic connection with their ancestors. Ancestors they anyway would not find in Egypt.
quote: And again since this Dutch museum display is about hip hop and black music using elements from the history of the Nile, why isn't appropriation when modern Egypt loves rap music? Sounds like so much hypocrisy to me, because I don't see black people being outraged about it. This discussion is especially dumb when a main component of rap is sampling which can be from music of any culture. So this whole conversation is stupid.
Not all Egyptians love rap music. At least not by the governing elite. They seem not to like when Ancient Egyptian culture becomes associated with African American pop culture.
There was a trend the was and Afrocentric trend in the 1990s of Afrocentric scholars such as Yosef Ben-Jochannan, John Henrik Clarke, Chancellor Williams Leonard Jeffries, Asa Hillard, Runoko Rashidi, to name few
One of the books popular at the time was George G. M. James' 1954 book, Stolen Legacy
Some of this was reflected in some Hip hop images of the time. Some Hip Hop artist, Michael Jackson, Eddie Murphy were donning Egyptian garb. Nas' "I Am" cover was 1999 but it didn't look that serious to me. These Most artists were not talking it about much and they moved on to other imagery.
This Kemet exhibit at the Rijksmuseum opened April 22, 2023 and is scheduled to continue to September 3
Netflix Queen Cleopatra came out shortly after on May 10, 2023 This caused a controversy as we know
Even though the Kemet exhibit came out earlier than Queen Cleopatra it seems controversy over it came later around may 24, seemingly after the Cleopatra controversy
I wonder if Queen Cleopatra had not come out would there have been as much controversy with the Kemet exhibit. This exhibit has led to Egypt banning the museum from carrying out excavations in Saqqara which they have been doing for 40 years.
Michael Jackson's Remember the Time video came out in 1991. I don't think that caused much if any controversy controversy
The museum ran the exhibit and put real and replica artifacts next to these 90s and 2000s pics of various Hip Hop and R&B artists
This may be what made the show controversial, intermixing modern and ancient in the same show
____________________________In this display is also displays recent book, 2019 ^^
"Aretha was private. I respected this and she trusted me." Linda Solomon met Aretha Franklin in 1983 when she was just beginning her career as a photojournalist and newspaper columnist. Franklin's brother and business manager arranged for Solomon to capture the singer's major career events-just as she was coming back home to Detroit from California-while Franklin requested that Solomon document everything else. Everything. And she did just that. What developed over these years of photographing birthday and Christmas parties in her home, annual celebrity galas, private backstage moments during national awards ceremonies, photo shoots with the iconic pink Cadillac, and more was a friendship between two women who grew to enjoy and respect one another.
The Queen Next Door: Aretha Franklin, An Intimate Portrait is a book full of firsts as Solomon was invited not only to capture historical events in Aretha's music career showcasing Detroit but to join in with the Franklin family's most intimate and cherished moments in her beloved hometown.
They call Aretha the Queen of Soul so I suppose that one reason is why this picture was chosen for the cover. I did a keyword search in the book and it seems that "Egypt" or "Egyptian" is not even mentioned
Egyptian themes in Hip Hop? I would call it a minor trend. You probably could read an entire book on Hip Hop history and not see it mentioned or at most a sentence or two
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
@Archeopteryx, I can't remember if I saw this or am just imagining it a statement from the Egyptian Ministry of Antiquities about Netflix Cleopatra or this Kemet exhibit, not a brief Facebook post, something official looking with a letterhead at the top. But I could be misremembering this in some way
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: @Archeopteryx, I can't remember if I saw this or am just imagining it a statement from the Egyptian Ministry of Antiquities about Netflix Cleopatra or this Kemet exhibit, not a brief Facebook post, something official looking with a letterhead at the top. But I could be misremembering this in some way
Maybe it is this statement you mean?
It is about the Netflix Cleopatra documentary.
I quote it here translated to English. In the link below you can see the document in Arabic.
quote:Ministry of Tourism and Antiquities on Thursday
April 27, 2023
- The Secretary General of the Supreme Council of Antiquities confirms that Queen Cleopatra had light skin and Hellenistic (Greek) features.
- The effects and statues of Queen Cleopatra are the best evidence of her true features and her Macedonian origins
With reference to the series of documentaries that the “Netflix” platform announced its launch during the coming period, foremost of which is a screening of the movie “Queen Cleopatra” on the 10th of next May, in which its heroine, who plays the role of Queen “Cleopatra VII”, appears with African features and dark skin, he confirmed. Dr.. Mostafa Waziri, Secretary-General of the Supreme Council of Antiquities, said that the appearance of the heroine in this body is a falsification of Egyptian history and a blatant historical fallacy, especially since the film is classified as a documentary film and not a dramatic work, which requires those in charge of its production to investigate accuracy and rely on historical and scientific facts to ensure that history and civilizations are not falsified. peoples.
He added that it was necessary to refer to specialists in archeology and anthropology when making this kind of documentaries and historical films, which will remain a witness to the civilizations and history of nations, pointing out that there are many antiquities of Queen Cleopatra, including statues and depictions on coins that confirm the shape and true features of her. All of which show the Hellenistic (Greek) features of Queen Cleopatra in terms of fair skin, drawn nose and thin lips.
Dr. confirmed. Mostafa Waziri said that the state of rejection witnessed by the film before its screening comes out of a sense of defending the history of Queen "Cleopatra VII", which is an important and authentic part of the ancient history of Egypt, and far from any ethnic racism, stressing full respect for African civilizations and our brothers in the African continent that unites us all. .
As Dr. added. Nasser Makkawi, Head of the Egyptian Antiquities Department at the Faculty of Archeology, Cairo University, said that the appearance of Queen Cleopatra in this film in this body contradicts the simplest historical facts and the writings of historians such as Plutarch and Diocassius, who recorded the events of Roman history in Egypt during the reign of Queen Cleopatra, who confirmed that she was light-skinned and that she had Pure Macedonian ancestry. He pointed out that Queen "Cleopatra VII" descends from an ancient Macedonian family that ruled Egypt for nearly 300 years, founded by King "Ptolemy I", one of the Macedonian leaders in the army of "Alexander the Great", to whom the state of Egypt devolved after the death of "Alexander" and the foundations of the Ptolemaic dynasty. Ptolemy I married Queen Berenice I of Macedonian origin as well, and they gave birth to King Ptolemy II, after whom his sons and grandchildren continued to marry their female sisters according to the customs of this era, until Queen Cleopatra VII and her brother Ptolemy 14 maintained The purity of their Macedonian race during all this time period.
On her part, Dr. said. Samia Al-Mirghani, former Director General of the Center for Research and Conservation of Antiquities at the Supreme Council of Antiquities, said that biological anthropology studies and DNA studies that were conducted on ancient Egyptian mummies and human bones confirmed that the Egyptians did not bear the features of sub-Saharan Africans, whether in the shape of the skull, the width of the cheeks and nose, the widening and advancement of the upper jaw, or the shape Al-Zahiri for hair, proportions of body parts, height, distribution and density of body hair. And what we see of a great diversity among the features of the Egyptians is due to the age of the ages of this land and the stability of its inhabitants and their melting of every stranger within their crucible.
She added that all the inscriptions and statues left for us by the ancient Egyptians on the temples and tombs depicted the Egyptians with features as close as possible to the contemporary Egyptians in terms of eye, hair and skin color, the degree of smoothness and density of hair for men and women, and even the color of the skin and the presence of a proportion of colored eyes, which are depicted in some statues of the Old Kingdom. Even when some mummification techniques changed in the 21st Dynasty and they began to paint the mummy's skin to make it look as it was in her first life, they painted the man's skin in brick color and painted the woman's skin in light yellow, which confirms that what was drawn and confirmed on the walls is the truth that the ancient Egyptian recorded about himself. .
As Dr. said. Catharina Martinez, the head of the Dominican mission and a worker at the Taposiris Magna temple in western Alexandria, said that despite the existence of conflicting opinions about her race, it is certain that she was born in Egypt in the year 69 BC of Macedonian origin, pointing out that with reference to the statues and coins left to us by the queen She confirms beyond any doubt her Hellenistic features, which is evident in the bust made of marble preserved in the Berlin Museum from the first century BC, in which she appears wearing a royal wreath, almond eyes, a drawn nose and thin lips, in addition to another bust preserved in the Vatican that shows her With soft features, and a marble head in which she appears wearing a headdress, as well as a number of coins that show her in the same Hellenistic form. ---- Ministry of Tourism
I was checking for the word "black" and it's not there. I think it's better to leave out since the definition has no standard (although I had heard Hawass use the term recently) I see they put out this statement on Netflix Cleopatra on April 27, 2023 which was before the release date of May 10. They don't mention her name Adele James but seem to have seen it before it's official release. The odd thing is the complaint is of her not looking Greek Also that statement on the 27 is 5 days after the Kemet exhibit on April 22, 2023 but is not about the the Kemet exhibit, it's about Cleopatra I don't know the planning of their comments but they seem to complain about the earlier release of the Kemet exhibit only later after Netflix Cleopatra came out > unless there was some earlier comment in Arabic they released which did not get media coverage until later (?)
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I was checking for the word "black" and it's not there. I think it's better to leave out since the definition has no standard (although I had heard Hawass use the term recently)
Yes they used the expression: "African features and dark skin"
quote:I see they put out this statement on Netflix Cleopatra on April 27, 2023 which was before the release date of May 10. They don't mention her name Adele James but seem to have seen it before it's official release. The odd thing is the complaint is of her not looking Greek Also that statement on the 27 is 5 days after the Kemet exhibit on April 22, 2023 but is not about the the Kemet exhibit, it's about Cleopatra I don't know the planning of their comments but they seem to complain about the earlier release of the Kemet exhibit only later after Netflix Cleopatra came out > unless there was some earlier comment in Arabic they released which did not get media coverage until later (?)
Yes it seems that the Netflix Cleopatra was the igniting spark of the latest debates.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Another article about the exhibition and the controversy. There is a line from a song written by Nas that I think could irritate one or another modern Egyptian, and others too. It perpetuates the narrative that Europeans destroyed the noses of ancient Egyptian statues to hide that they looked African
quote: Egypt was the place that Alexander the Great went / He was so shocked at the mountains with Black faces / Shot up they nose to impose what basically / Still goes on today, you see?” Weijland points out that this story is consistent with the theory that Europeans “damaged the noses of Egyptian statues in the 19th century to hide their African appearance, but there is no evidence that this was the case.”
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: The Dutch are not Americans, but they made an exhibition about Egypt in American pop culture. Seems to be enough to irritate Egyptians.
The point is the Egyptian government aren't attacking Nas, Beyonce, Eddie Murphy or any other black entertainer directly. Because it isn't appropriation and they know they have no case. They are solely attacking the Dutch museum for presenting these entertainers in an exhibit for dressing like ancient Nile Valley Africans. So why are you using this to attack black Americans when the Egyptian government isn't doing it? Obviously the whole point is to promote anti-black propaganda, but even Egypt isn't silly enough to attack Beyonce or Nas directly, because they know they have no legal or ethical argument to make against artistic freedom or in support of appropriation.
All of this in the context of the last 500 years of European outright theft of Africans and African historical and cultural artifacts. And the outright appropriation of African culture as well.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Well such net trolls probably help to stir up certain negative feelings among Egyptians, which further fuels the Egyptian disdain for African American culture
No because the Dutch exhibit had nothing to do with any such "internet trolls" and unless you can show or prove that the Dutch museum was influenced by such trolls, you are just trying to form a narrative to discredit actual black scholarship by using random "black trolls". Because you have been on this forum for a while and you havent been able to disprove or beat any actual legitimate scholarship and facts, so you need to make up boogey men to justify your pathetic anti black propaganda.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Africans Americans have mostly no ties to the Nile valley. Most African Americans do not descend from the Nile Valley.
African Americans can of course do what they like, but they can not demand that everyone will approve of it, as many Egyptians obviously not do.
Most African Americans have lost their ties to Africa. You do not become African just because your ancestors came from there centuries ago or you happen to have same skin color.
Or as Chief X (an African American ) says about some African Americans obsession with Egypt or Nubia:
Oh so now you are telling black people that they aren't Africans? And who exactly stripped these black people of their African languages, cultural traditions and identity? Last I checked, it was the white Europeans that did this during slavery. So it sounds like to me this is a case of Europeans trying to control the identity of black people by telling them what is and isn't "their" history, what names they can use for their skin color and what they should and shouldn't identify with in history. Because obviously these black people came from Africa, so obviously that makes them Africans. The fact that you would sit here and try to argue otherwise shows that nothing you are saying has any value or merit in any way. Again, nothing but anti-black, anti-African propaganda.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: A woman from Cambodia would never call herself an Iranian Queen, being from Cambodia. But Black African Americans with an identity crisis would call themselves a Nubian Queen, when they are really from West and Central Africa. You all see what I am saying? It is a continent, not a country. Everybody else who wasn´t afflicted by the transatlantic slave trade understands this. People on the continent of Asia they don´t all claim each other as one people. It´s not all Asia love. It´s not all that with continental Africans, this is just a thing specifically for Black Americans because we have an identity crisis. We have the confusion
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: All people in the world do not like rap and similar American pop culture. There are more or less conservative people in the world who do not buy into that.
Why are you talking about all the world? I posted the facts from Egypt that in 2022 the most popular music on Spotify was rap. If Egypt was so proud and distinct in their culture as "not" Africans, why are they practicing culture from Africans? Somehow you don't want to address the contradiction.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: I remember one time when they tried to involve some rap music in a St Lucy celebration here in Sweden, St Lucy is a traditional midwinter ceremony where young girls dress up in white clothes with candles in their hair, and sing Christmas songs, often together with a choir. This specific Christmas some genius came up on the idea to present a rapper who rapped two tunes in the TV sent traditional St Lucy celebration. And the rapper was not black (but an immigrant). Thousands of people got rather upset and wrote to the TV company, wrote articles in newspapers and wrote on the net to protest against what many saw as blasphemy. So no, all people do not love rap and similar variants of American mass culture.
So also in Egypt.
Totally irrelevant to the facts about either the Dutch exhibit or the popularity of rap in modern Egypt. Like I said, nothing of vale from you but babble about black people stealing other peoples culture and not having any of their own of value, blah blah. And when presented with facts, you duck and dodge like you always do.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Another article about the exhibition and the controversy. There is a line from a song written by Nas that I think could irritate one or another modern Egyptian, and others too. It perpetuates the narrative that Europeans destroyed the noses of ancient Egyptian statues to hide that they looked African
quote: Egypt was the place that Alexander the Great went / He was so shocked at the mountains with Black faces / Shot up they nose to impose what basically / Still goes on today, you see?” Weijland points out that this story is consistent with the theory that Europeans “damaged the noses of Egyptian statues in the 19th century to hide their African appearance, but there is no evidence that this was the case.”
It's beyond ridiculous complaining about a lyrics from a song written 20 years ago in 2003 and the mention of Egypt is not even the theme of the song, it's just a passing remark. The rumor that Napoleon shot off the nose was proven false but to suggest Alexander did it is to suggest something instantly not believable. So it's a just silly lyric not worth mentioning. There is a wiki entry on the song, no mention of it
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The other side of the casket didn't make it to the Kemet exhibit
The particular thing with the Kemet exhibit is that they did not just show the pop music memorabilia with the Egyptian costuming but they have Egyptian artifacts intermingled with it
Was this appropriate to do? I'm not sure
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Archeopteryx, what do you think of this Mannequin in the center from 2016?
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The point is the Egyptian government aren't attacking Nas, Beyonce, Eddie Murphy or any other black entertainer directly. Because it isn't appropriation and they know they have no case. They are solely attacking the Dutch museum for presenting these entertainers in an exhibit for dressing like ancient Nile Valley Africans. So why are you using this to attack black Americans when the Egyptian government isn't doing it? Obviously the whole point is to promote anti-black propaganda, but even Egypt isn't silly enough to attack Beyonce or Nas directly, because they know they have no legal or ethical argument to make against artistic freedom or in support of appropriation.
All of this in the context of the last 500 years of European outright theft of Africans and African historical and cultural artifacts. And the outright appropriation of African culture as well.
They do not attack Beyonce and the others but they still show what they think about the exhibition and about African American artists dressing up as Egyptians. And they also showed what they thought of the Netflix Cleopatra movie. The two discussions are related.
quote:No because the Dutch exhibit had nothing to do with any such "internet trolls" and unless you can show or prove that the Dutch museum was influenced by such trolls, you are just trying to form a narrative to discredit actual black scholarship by using random "black trolls". Because you have been on this forum for a while and you havent been able to disprove or beat any actual legitimate scholarship and facts, so you need to make up boogey men to justify your pathetic anti black propaganda.
Seems you are unable to see these things in a context. Netflix Cleopatra, the Dutch exhibition, Black American artists that Egypt does not approve of, and even internet trolls are just parts of a larger discussion where Egypt is tired of African Americans (and maybe also other westerners) in different ways using their ancient culture partly for commercial reasons and, as in the Cleopatra case, probably also for some kind of political purposes.
quote:Oh so now you are telling black people that they aren't Africans? And who exactly stripped these black people of their African languages, cultural traditions and identity? Last I checked, it was the white Europeans that did this during slavery. So it sounds like to me this is a case of Europeans trying to control the identity of black people by telling them what is and isn't "their" history, what names they can use for their skin color and what they should and shouldn't identify with in history. Because obviously these black people came from Africa, so obviously that makes them Africans. The fact that you would sit here and try to argue otherwise shows that nothing you are saying has any value or merit in any way. Again, nothing but anti-black, anti-African propaganda.
Well whoever stripped Africans Americans from their historical roots it was not Egyptians. So better African Americans try to find their roots in those parts of Africa their ancestors once came from. Some of the obsession over ancient Egypt seems more or less neurotic.
And how long do a people who live on another continent remain Africans, 200 years, 500 years or more? Most African Americans have never been in Egypt or in other parts of Africa. Most do not talk any African language, most do not practice any traditional African religion, and most do not know more about Africa than anyone else.
Fact is that when it comes to Egypt many more Europeans have been to Egypt than African Americans, yes it would not even surprise me that more Swedes have been in Egypt than African Americans. If African Americans are Africans then white South Africans are also Africans, since they lived in Africa some centuries now, roughly as long as African Americans lived outside of Africa.
quote:Originally posted ]Why are you talking about all the world? I posted the facts from Egypt that in 2022 the most popular music on Spotify was rap. If Egypt was so proud and distinct in their culture as "not" Africans, why are they practicing culture from Africans? Somehow you don't want to address the contradiction.
Chief X, who is himself an African American, is just comparing some African Americans obsessive behaviour with some other peoples who do not obsess over foreign countries in the same way. Seems he sees through some of the Afrocentric Bs and obsessions.
Egypt does not necessarily dislike African culture, but maybe they dislike African American culture, which is not African.
quote: Totally irrelevant to the facts about either the Dutch exhibit or the popularity of rap in modern Egypt. Like I said, nothing of vale from you but babble about black people stealing other peoples culture and not having any of their own of value, blah blah. And when presented with facts, you duck and dodge like you always do.
Totally relevant because it shows that not everyone loves rap, hip hop and similar pop cultural phenomena. In many countries it is a question of societal group, age, class and other factors, which decide who mostly listen to a certain kind of music, or embrace certain cultural expressions and influences.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Cleopatra
Archeopteryx can you see the flaw here, modern Egyptians defending the Ptolemies, Macedonian occupiers who dressed up like Egyptians? worried about the sanctity of cultural appropriators?
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Well, in Britain many people are celebrating Romans, dressing up as Romans, studying Roman history and admiring Roman culture even if the Romans occupied Britain for 400 years. Also in Germany romans are popular, even if they also occupied parts of what is today Germany. So Macedonians are a part of Egypts history. African Americans are not.
Egyptians obviously thought that both Netflix Cleopatra and the Dutch exhibition misrepresented Egyptian history and culture. So they reacted on it.
At other occations they have reacted to other films because of different reasons, for example films that showed Biblical figures. They also reacted on films with Israeli actors (for example Gal Gadot) or actors who supported Israel (for example Elisabeth Taylor). I suppose it is up to the Egyptians to decide which films shall be shown in their country or which institutions who shall work there.
There are also some artists who have not been welcome, like rapper Travis Scott which been discussed in another thread:
Some of their complaint is reasonable but it seems combined with an anti-African vibe Elisabeth Taylor was not Greek, yet the complaint about her seems only that she converted to Judaism due to having a Jewish husband
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Some of their complaint is reasonable but it seems combined with an anti-African vibe Elisabeth Taylor was not Greek, yet the complaint about her seems only that she converted to Judaism due to having a Jewish husband
And Gal Gadot was also considered unsuitable to play Cleopatra because she is an Israeli, and has been a member of the Israeli armed forces. She also allegedly made statements which the Egyptians disagreed with.
Egyptians seem overall a bit sensitive regarding what kind of films and other popular culture the people shall be able to take part of. They are also sensitive about their image.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]Some of their complaint is reasonable but it seems combined with an anti-African vibe Elisabeth Taylor was not Greek, yet the complaint about her seems only that she converted to Judaism due to having a Jewish husband
And Gal Gadot was also considered unsuitable to play Cleopatra because she is an Israeli, and has been a member of the Israeli armed forces. She also allegedly made statements which the Egyptians disagreed with.
yes, had she looked exactly the same but not have that political nationality, no complaint about her looks But I'm not sure what would have happened if Netflix Cleopatra had not mentioned "black" and was called a dramatization rather than a documentary yet have kept Adele James and the rest of the actors the same.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Yes, maybe the Egyptians would not have reacted so hard if it just had been a drama instead of a documentary. And as you say if they had not talked about black, or someone´s grandmother considering the ancient Egyptians black and similar.
Ancient Egyptians have been presented as dark skinned in other films with motifs from Ancient Egypt without modern Egyptians having reacted.
Also, opinions and political climate are shifting and changing. Maybe the narrative of a ´black´ ancient Egypt are not in line with the Egyptian self image right now.
Here are some representations of ancient Egyptians as rather dark skinned, we see images from HBO:s TV series Rome, from the movie The Mummy 2, from Queen of the Damned and from La Reine Soleil. Seems there were not many complaints about these films.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
If there there was a future film on an Egyptian pharaoh made by an American movies company it would reasonable to expect the whole cast to be citizens or people born in Egypt. If a director was to cast Rameses II, based on the art one could argue that a broad featured Sub-Saharan type would not resemble the art. But the same Sub-Saharan type person could be cast as Amenhotep III and it would have reasonable resemblance to the art. Therein lies possible future controversy. People like Chief X just avoid the fact that some Pharaohs in some of the art have "Sub-Saharan features" So one day a director will be more informed and sophisticated than Jada Pinkett-Smith and do some casting of a Pharaoh that the Egyptian ruling class might not like but they would have a hard time complaining about
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: They do not attack Beyonce and the others but they still show what they think about the exhibition and about African American artists dressing up as Egyptians. And they also showed what they thought of the Netflix Cleopatra movie. The two discussions are related.
There is no legitimate reason to attach a museum in a white nation, run by white people who are thousands of miles away from America and the black musicians who made these works. To sit here and claim that this is a legitimate response to actual individual artists is the problem, because it isn't. You seem to keep trying to support these extreme responses exclusively for African artists as if the Nile isn't in Africa and the ancient dynastic Kingdom wasn't an African culture. You seem to believe that because the Egyptian government is behind it, that somehow that makes it legit, when it doesn't. The modern government of Egypt is not ancient and has a constitution that calls itself Arab and Islamic which has nothing to do with the ancient Kingdom.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Seems you are unable to see these things in a context. Netflix Cleopatra, the Dutch exhibition, Black American artists that Egypt does not approve of, and even internet trolls are just parts of a larger discussion where Egypt is tired of African Americans (and maybe also other westerners) in different ways using their ancient culture partly for commercial reasons and, as in the Cleopatra case, probably also for some kind of political purposes.
The only context is you trying to legitimize anti African propaganda. Because there is nothing about this action that is anything other than anti-African propaganda. The Egyptian government has no place telling African people who they can and cannot identify with is the point. You somehow seem to feel that it is legitimate to do so. The ancient kingdom of the Nile was African and will always be African. To sit here and claim that the modern "Arab" government of Egypt can somehow claim to represent that African kingdom makes absolutely no sense. The ancient kingdom is gone and hasn't been around for thousands of years and the modern Egyptian government is not a direct continuation of it.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Well whoever stripped Africans Americans from their historical roots it was not Egyptians. So better African Americans try to find their roots in those parts of Africa their ancestors once came from. Some of the obsession over ancient Egypt seems more or less neurotic.
Again, we know who stripped the Africans in the Americas of their identity. The point is Europeans are in the wrong in both that historical act and the idea that they can now dictate how those modern descendants should identify. The perpetrators of the crime cannot claim somehow to be the solution when they are the ones who created it. So again, it is still anti-African propaganda to argue that certain parts of African history are "off limits" to Africans. Who the hell are Europeans or the modern "Arab" Egyptian government to tell Africans who they are and what is and isn't their history. This is the part you keep trying to legitimize which is nothing but anti-African propaganda.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: And how long do a people who live on another continent remain Africans, 200 years, 500 years or more? Most African Americans have never been in Egypt or in other parts of Africa. Most do not talk any African language, most do not practice any traditional African religion, and most do not know more about Africa than anyone else.
You know full well this is a dumb question because you aren't talking about an ancient migration of people in prehistoric times. These people are Africans only separated from Africa by a couple hundred years and in many parts of the Americas they still maintain their African heritage and traditions. To sit here and argue that these Africans should not identify as Africans is nothing but anti-African propaganda and anti-African hate. Not only were they stolen from Africa, forced to work for free, but then when they try and reconnect to their historic African roots, they are told they aren't really Africans, by the same people who stole them in the first place. All of which is blatantly against any form of African self identity and sovereignty. Not to mention turning around and saying that these Africans are the problem because they are stealing history from Africa. I mean seriously the lack of shame and dishonesty in all of this knows no bounds.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Fact is that when it comes to Egypt many more Europeans have been to Egypt than African Americans, yes it would not even surprise me that more Swedes have been in Egypt than African Americans. If African Americans are Africans then white South Africans are also Africans, since they lived in Africa some centuries now, roughly as long as African Americans lived outside of Africa.
And now your true stripes come out in claiming that European invaders, colonizers and thieves have more of a right to identify with African history than Africans do and certainly more of a right than the Africans they colonized and stole from Africa. By definition that is the epitome of anti-African hate and propaganda. When the fact is that these invaders throughout their history have always upheld their identity as Europeans and white over everyone they colonized. So to sit here and argue that somehow they see themselves as other than white and European just shows how far you will go to push your anti-African propaganda. Especially when you are arguing that Africans identifyng with African history is wrong but Europeans doing it is perfectly fine and more legitimate than Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Chief X, who is himself an African American, is just comparing some African Americans obsessive behaviour with some other peoples who do not obsess over foreign countries in the same way. Seems he sees through some of the Afrocentric Bs and obsessions.
What does that have to do with the fact that Egyptians have no problem appropriating African American pop culture? See how you completely changed the point when I pointed out how hypocritical this position on the Dutch Museum is? If appropriation and imitating the art and culture of others that you aren't part of is wrong, then why are modern Egyptians doing it? Somehow you just cannot handle the fact that this entire issue is totally nonsense and an extreme form of hypocrisy and anti African propaganda.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Egypt does not necessarily dislike African culture, but maybe they dislike African American culture, which is not African.
Rap IS African American culture and many of the artists in the Dutch Museum exhibit are rappers or part of the rap industry, such as Beyonce who is married to Jay-Z. What you are saying and defending is that non Africans can take and identify with whatever they want in African history,but Africans have to stick to only whatever parts of Africa these non Africans tell them to stick to. All of which is blatantly racist any way you look at it.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Totally relevant because it shows that not everyone loves rap, hip hop and similar pop cultural phenomena. In many countries it is a question of societal group, age, class and other factors, which decide who mostly listen to a certain kind of music, or embrace certain cultural expressions and influences.
Which is you babbling nonsense because I never said that everyone loves rap. I said that rap is the most popular form of pop music in Egypt today. Two different things. You keep trying to use these threads to attack black people at every step, for being black, for being African and on and on as nothing but a continuous stream of anti-black and anti-African propaganda.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote: Orininally posted by Doug M There is no legitimate reason to attach a museum in a white nation, run by white people who are thousands of miles away from America and the black musicians who made these works. To sit here and claim that this is a legitimate response to actual individual artists is the problem, because it isn't. You seem to keep trying to support these extreme responses exclusively for African artists as if the Nile isn't in Africa and the ancient dynastic Kingdom wasn't an African culture. You seem to believe that because the Egyptian government is behind it, that somehow that makes it legit, when it doesn't. The modern government of Egypt is not ancient and has a constitution that calls itself Arab and Islamic which has nothing to do with the ancient Kingdom.
Doug, are you at all contributing more to this thread than just whining? Seems you are just here to complain.
But back to the question, the museum made a exhibition about mostly American black pop culture and its use of Egyptian symbols, clothes and similar. So the subject was about American pop culture. Egyptians obviously do not like to have their history associated with certain kinds of American pop culture. Is that hard to understand? If you have problem with it so write to Egyptian authorities and complain. They maybe not read posts here on ES.
quote: The only context is you trying to legitimize anti African propaganda. Because there is nothing about this action that is anything other than anti-African propaganda. The Egyptian government has no place telling African people who they can and cannot identify with is the point. You somehow seem to feel that it is legitimate to do so. The ancient kingdom of the Nile was African and will always be African. To sit here and claim that the modern "Arab" government of Egypt can somehow claim to represent that African kingdom makes absolutely no sense. The ancient kingdom is gone and hasn't been around for thousands of years and the modern Egyptian government is not a direct continuation of it.
You seem paranoid, you see anti African and anti Black conspiracies everywhere. Not only in this contexts, judging from other posts you seem to see it in many scientific papers and studies too.
Egyptian government has no obligation to endorse American commercial mass culture that uses ancient Egyptian symbols or clothes for commercial or political purposes..
And they have no reason to satisfy Black Americans who try to attach themselves to the culture of a country many of them never visited or have any ties with.
quote: Again, we know who stripped the Africans in the Americas of their identity. The point is Europeans are in the wrong in both that historical act and the idea that they can now dictate how those modern descendants should identify. The perpetrators of the crime cannot claim somehow to be the solution when they are the ones who created it. So again, it is still anti-African propaganda to argue that certain parts of African history are "off limits" to Africans. Who the hell are Europeans or the modern "Arab" Egyptian government to tell Africans who they are and what is and isn't their history. This is the part you keep trying to legitimize which is nothing but anti-African propaganda.
That is irrelevant, Egyptians do not owe African Americans to be a playground for their racial dreams and fantasies, or letting them use that culture for their own purposes.
The modern Egyptian government do not owe Black Americans anything. It is their land and their culture and if they protest against foreigners using their cultures for their own purposes it is up to them. Maybe if Black Americans stubbornly continue to use Egypt´s ancient culture, or force their American racial perspectives on Egyptian culture, maybe more of them will be banned from Egypt.
quote:You know full well this is a dumb question because you aren't talking about an ancient migration of people in prehistoric times. These people are Africans only separated from Africa by a couple hundred years and in many parts of the Americas they still maintain their African heritage and traditions. To sit here and argue that these Africans should not identify as Africans is nothing but anti-African propaganda and anti-African hate. Not only were they stolen from Africa, forced to work for free, but then when they try and reconnect to their historic African roots, they are told they aren't really Africans, by the same people who stole them in the first place. All of which is blatantly against any form of African self identity and sovereignty. Not to mention turning around and saying that these Africans are the problem because they are stealing history from Africa. I mean seriously the lack of shame and dishonesty in all of this knows no bounds.
Most African Americans have no real cultural contact with Africa or any cultural continuity anymore. And especially with Egypt which lies in a different part of Africa than the one many African American descend from. Seem some Americans think they own the whole world just because they had ancestors who came from other places hundreds of years ago.
quote: And now your true stripes come out in claiming that European invaders, colonizers and thieves have more of a right to identify with African history than Africans do and certainly more of a right than the Africans they colonized and stole from Africa. By definition that is the epitome of anti-African hate and propaganda. When the fact is that these invaders throughout their history have always upheld their identity as Europeans and white over everyone they colonized. So to sit here and argue that somehow they see themselves as other than white and European just shows how far you will go to push your anti-African propaganda. Especially when you are arguing that Africans identifyng with African history is wrong but Europeans doing it is perfectly fine and more legitimate than Africans.
Well, people who live in Africa are more African than people who never sat their foot in Africa or can talk any African language, or have no connection to Africa more than genetics and skin tone.
This regardless of skin tone.
quote: What does that have to do with the fact that Egyptians have no problem appropriating African American pop culture? See how you completely changed the point when I pointed out how hypocritical this position on the Dutch Museum is? If appropriation and imitating the art and culture of others that you aren't part of is wrong, then why are modern Egyptians doing it? Somehow you just cannot handle the fact that this entire issue is totally nonsense and an extreme form of hypocrisy and anti African propaganda.
It is not anti African propaganda, African Americans are not Africans anymore, they are AMERICANS. They have not so much to do with Africa anymore, and especially not with Egypt. That some Egyptians chose to listen to American music is not the same as using traditional, ancient Egyptian culture for commercial purposes, or as they did in Netflix Cleopatra claiming that historical Egyptian figures had a certain skin color. Egyptians do not claim American history.
quote: Rap IS African American culture and many of the artists in the Dutch Museum exhibit are rappers or part of the rap industry, such as Beyonce who is married to Jay-Z. What you are saying and defending is that non Africans can take and identify with whatever they want in African history,but Africans have to stick to only whatever parts of Africa these non Africans tell them to stick to. All of which is blatantly racist any way you look at it.
Yes rap is African American culture that has not much to do with Egypt or ancient Egyptian culture. Rap has no real connection with Egypt or traditional Egyptian music.
quote: Which is you babbling nonsense because I never said that everyone loves rap. I said that rap is the most popular form of pop music in Egypt today. Two different things. You keep trying to use these threads to attack black people at every step, for being black, for being African and on and on as nothing but a continuous stream of anti-black and anti-African propaganda.
Rap is maybe popular among certain segments of the population, but not all. It is a matter of class, education, age and other factors, who likes certain music styles or who embraces certain cultural expressions.
Those Egyptians who happen to like rap music are not necessarily the same people who protest against he Dutch exhibition, or who wants to ban certain rappers to perform in Egypt.
One thing is sure, todays Egyptians are more Egyptian than most African Americans. They are also more African than most African Americans.
Todays Egyptians have many roots in ancient Egypt which hardly any African Americans have.
Here is a film that can be a reminder of some of the ties todays Egyptians have with Ancient Egypt
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: If there there was a future film on an Egyptian pharaoh made by an American movies company it would reasonable to expect the whole cast to be citizens or people born in Egypt. If a director was to cast Rameses II, based on the art one could argue that a broad featured Sub-Saharan type would not resemble the art. But the same Sub-Saharan type person could be cast as Amenhotep III and it would have reasonable resemblance to the art. Therein lies possible future controversy. People like Chief X just avoid the fact that some Pharaohs in some of the art have "Sub-Saharan features" So one day a director will be more informed and sophisticated than Jada Pinkett-Smith and do some casting of a Pharaoh that the Egyptian ruling class might not like but they would have a hard time complaining about
The best is if they could cast Egyptian actors in leading roles, then Egyptians could at least not say that Americans are letting foreigners portrait Egyptian historical persons. To think about concerning future films is also to try to avoid provoking trailers with American grandmothers talking about ancient Egypt. Best also to consult Egyptians for the film, so they can feel involved in a film about their own history.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: The best is if they could cast Egyptian actors in leading roles, then Egyptians could at least not say that Americans are letting foreigners portrait Egyptian historical persons.
what Egyptian actor could they cast for him?
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
There is a rather high diversity in Egypt so I imagine they could find someone.
Maybe a guy like Amir Salah El-Din? He is an Egyptian of Nubian heritage. His features are not an exact copy of Amenhotep, but at least he is an Egyptian citizen and has a skin tone reminding of the kings in the painting. I am no expert on Egyptian actors, but maybe there are others who are more like the king. If they scout around a while they might find some.
Amir is 42 years old. Don´t know if he is too old? But Amenhotep became 53 so it is maybe ok with the age.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
It is unrealistic though to expect a movie company would spend multi-millions on say, a dramatization of Joan of Arc and in search of an actress who had some fame, some box office draw, that they would have to restrict their casting search only to French nationals
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Probably, so maybe there will be similar conflicts about the skin color or ethnicity of actors also in the future. But maybe in the future American TV companies will abstain from too provocative statements, like the one made by Shelley Haley. That will say if they want to avoid this kind of conflict.
Now the Cleopatra series seems not to have been so popular among other, non Egyptian, watchers either.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Doug, are you at all contributing more to this thread than just whining? Seems you are just here to complain.
No I am challenging you who opens all these threads trying to attack black people and blame them for the history of racism and colorism in society and culture. You keep doing this and then pretend to be dumb when someone calls you out on this.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: But back to the question, the museum made a exhibition about mostly American black pop culture and its use of Egyptian symbols, clothes and similar. So the subject was about American pop culture. Egyptians obviously do not like to have their history associated with certain kinds of American pop culture. Is that hard to understand? If you have problem with it so write to Egyptian authorities and complain. They maybe not read posts here on ES.
OK, but again, why did the Egyptians not attack those American performers then? Because they can't as it is against artistic freedom. There is no court of law anywhere that would even hear this nonsense and those entertainers would certainly be in their rights to do so. Them adopting the dress of the ancient Nile Valley is not a "scientific" argument and the image of Nas over King Tuts mummy mask is simply a reflection of the reality that Africans have similar features. And this is the whole point, you cannot claim that these actions on the part of the Egyptian government are anything other than extremist. Yet you sit here and try to argue that this is legitimate because black people are trying to steal African history and culture. This is the whole point of you continually posting threads about this trying to make it seem that black people in America are the problem. And you are doing this because you can't debate the facts so you resort to trying to find other ways to attack black people for pointing out the obvious facts of history on the Nile.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: You seem paranoid, you see anti African and anti Black conspiracies everywhere. Not only in this contexts, judging from other posts you seem to see it in many scientific papers and studies too.
Egyptian government has no obligation to endorse American commercial mass culture that uses ancient Egyptian symbols or clothes for commercial or political purposes..
And they have no reason to satisfy Black Americans who try to attach themselves to the culture of a country many of them never visited or have any ties with.
These actions of the Egyptian government are not a conspiracy, because it was done publicly. The point is you have created multiple threads on this forum on this topic and topics related to the Cleopatra TV show. You aren't doing this to "inform" anybody because one thread is more than enough to inform people. And sure, this happens here on ES, but not back to back like you are doing. The only reason you are doing this is to try and promote anti-black propaganda as if black people are trying to steal ancient African history when that history was stolen by Europeans not black people. And you are doing it because you keep losing when it comes to facts of history so you resort to simply promoting anti-black propaganda to try and claim that black people don't have the right to speak on African history. This attitude is nothing but anti black, because black people have every right to discuss history in the world just like anybody else and that includes ALL PARTs of African history. You trying to argue that they don't have that right is the problem. Just like you trying to argue that they don't have artistic freedom is also the problem.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: That is irrelevant, Egyptians do not owe African Americans to be a playground for their racial dreams and fantasies, or letting them use that culture for their own purposes.
The modern Egyptian government do not owe Black Americans anything. It is their land and their culture and if they protest against foreigners using their cultures for their own purposes it is up to them. Maybe if Black Americans stubbornly continue to use Egypt´s ancient culture, or force their American racial perspectives on Egyptian culture, maybe more of them will be banned from Egypt.
And there it is, somehow you are trying to argue that black people in America don't have the right to discuss, study and imitate any aspect of culture and history that they want just like anybody else can. Which is nothing but anti-black propaganda. Then according to you black people in America, who were stolen from Africa and stripped of their language and culture from Africa are the source of all the distortion of history around the world. Not to mention you try and act like Africans are the ones who stole African history from Africa and made lies and distortions about this history. This is what I mean by you posting anti-black propaganda to justify extremist actions on the part of the Egyptian government. You just admitted it and this is why I am calling you out on it. Because nobody challenges Europeans dressing up as Egyptians and using Egyptian themes in their entertainment, but when black people of African descent do it, all of a sudden there is a controversy. Not to mention the Europeans have stolen that African history from Africa and put it in their museum yet the Egyptian government is more outraged about black entertainers dressing as King Tut. Again, the Nile is in Africa and the history of the Nile is African history and all Africans have every right to identify with it as part of African history. You sitting here trying to act like black people don't have that right is the problem. Because even if someone from Ethiopia or Somalia or Sudan did it, you STILL would claim that these people are "appropriating" African history. And the whole issue is blackness as in skin color which is what you are against and why you keep promoting these extremist actions as justified as part of black Africans stealing black African history.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Most African Americans have no real cultural contact with Africa or any cultural continuity anymore. And especially with Egypt which lies in a different part of Africa than the one many African American descend from. Seem some Americans think they own the whole world just because they had ancestors who came from other places hundreds of years ago.
Again, the point is you trying to tell black people what they can and cannot do as scholars and artists. They have every right to identify as Africans and it isn't up to Europeans or anybody else to tell them they can't. Again, it is you attacking black people that is the issue here and promoting or justifying anti black racist extremist actions like that of the Egyptian government. Because again, the Egyptians have no problem imitating and copying the artistic creations of these black people in music while claiming that these black people are appropriating African history.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Well, people who live in Africa are more African than people who never sat their foot in Africa or can talk any African language, or have no connection to Africa more than genetics and skin tone.
This regardless of skin tone.
Again, you keep spewing anti black propaganda because you know full well the issue is skin color and you keep trying to promote this nonsense from the Egyptians as somehow justified. Black Africans in or outside of Africa have every right to identify with African history. And NOBODY speaks the language of the ancient Nile Valley so to sit up here and argue that this has anything to do with it is just you spouting dumb sh*t. The Ancient culture of the Nile Valley was a black African culture and this is the part you don't like. But because you can't prove otherwise, you resort to antics like these threads supporting the extremist actions of the Egyptian government. And they themselves know full damn well that the ancient Nile Valley was populated by black people and that the culture of the ancient Nile was very different than Egypt today as an "Arab Republic". All you do is run around and try and bring up any and all excuse to try and justify this because you are promoting anti-black propaganda. So black Americans can't identify with ancient Africans on the Nile, but modern Egypt can freely copy and imitate black people's culture in America. Hilarious.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: It is not anti African propaganda, African Americans are not Africans anymore, they are AMERICANS. They have not so much to do with Africa anymore, and especially not with Egypt. That some Egyptians chose to listen to American music is not the same as using traditional, ancient Egyptian culture for commercial purposes, or as they did in Netflix Cleopatra claiming that historical Egyptian figures had a certain skin color. Egyptians do not claim American history.
African Americans have African features because they are Africans, just like white Americans have European features because they are European and Asian Americans have Asian features because they are Asian. Europeans in America routinely do stories about European history and culture because that is where they came from. Asian Americans often do stories about Asia because that is where they came from. None of these people were in America 500 years ago. You sitting here trying to tell Africans in America what they can and cannot identify with based on the historical fact that these people's ancestors came from Africa is you spouting anti-black propaganda. That is all it is and there is no point denying it. That is all you keep doing which is trying to show that black people are the problem in all these things, whether racism, colorism, historical revisionism, cultural appropriation or antyhing else, it is ALWAYs black people fault and never anybody else. European racism, colonialism, theft and murder never get mentioned as if somehow they never did anything wrong, but black Aficans are always the problem according to you. And somehow just the idea that black people are studying or interested in any part of history in Africa or the world is a problem for you. Because ultimately the issue is Europeans trying to control the discussion of history and anthropology to promote racial propaganda. They have been doing it for the past 300 years and it is they who created the concept of race as a psseudo science and spread it all over the planet, with the ultimate goal to promote white and light skin as the key to human history and evolution. Yet according to YOU the problem is black people. This is what I mean by anti-black propaganda.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Yes rap is African American culture that has not much to do with Egypt or ancient Egyptian culture. Rap has no real connection with Egypt or traditional Egyptian music.
The point is you don't hear any black people complaining about the Egyptians being inspired by it. This is normal and happens all over the planet, but somehow according to YOU black people cannot be inspired by the ancient African history of the Nile. So it is hypocrisy. And you know this but again, you keep spouting anti black propaganda trying to somehow exclude black people from the same rights everybody else has.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Rap is maybe popular among certain segments of the population, but not all. It is a matter of class, education, age and other factors, who likes certain music styles or who embraces certain cultural expressions.
Those Egyptians who happen to like rap music are not necessarily the same people who protest against he Dutch exhibition, or who wants to ban certain rappers to perform in Egypt.
One thing is sure, todays Egyptians are more Egyptian than most African Americans. They are also more African than most African Americans.
Todays Egyptians have many roots in ancient Egypt which hardly any African Americans have.
Today's Egypt is an Arab Republic and has very little cultural or linguistic relationship to the ancient Nile Valley. Again, you are on this forum where we have been discussing these facts for many years, yet you avoid that because you know you keep losing, but somehow try and prop up this idea that the modern "Arab Republic of Egypt" is the same as the ancient African kingdom of Kemet, when it is not. Again you are doing this to promote anti-black propaganda because black Americans are the main ones pointing out the lies of Egyptology and European anthropology trying to hide the fact that the ancient Nile Valley kingdom was built by black Africans. But instead of addressing the facts you can't deny, you sit up here, just like the Egyptian government, trying to use the Dutch Museum and black entertainers as a scapegoat. And your argument that this is justified because modern Egypt is the same as ancient Kemet is nonsense and you know it.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Here is a film that can be a reminder of some of the ties todays Egyptians have with Ancient Egypt
And the fact is that modern Egypt promotes itself as "Mediterranean" with more in common with Eurasia than Africa, including having very light skin tones. This has been stated many times by various Egyptologists and others. But the ancient Nile Valley was an African culture with more in common with Africa than Eurasia, including black skin. This is the fundamental issue and everybody knows it, which boils down to skin color. Trying to use this issue of the Dutch museum to try and legitimize the colorist and racist history of Egyptology and the Europeans who created it is the problem, especially in attacking black people in and outside Africa who challenged them on their lies. And this isn't just an issue of black people in America as Chiekh Anta Diop was an African and linguist and they also challenged him for the same reason.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:No I am challenging you who opens all these threads trying to attack black people and blame them for the history of racism and colorism in society and culture. You keep doing this and then pretend to be dumb when someone calls you out on this.
I feel free to open any thread I want which have any connection to subjects which are usually talked about here on ES. And some ethnocentric Americans trying to put their noses into others history are always worth challenging.
Btw, Funny, I never seen you attack some of the more or less anti white threads which have been posted here on ES, where whites have been called "albinos", "cave peoples" and similar and posters are accused of being nazis or similar. Then I do not see you post long diatribes about having to challenge anti whiteness. Seems a bit biased.
quote:OK, but again, why did the Egyptians not attack those American performers then? Because they can't as it is against artistic freedom. There is no court of law anywhere that would even hear this nonsense and those entertainers would certainly be in their rights to do so. Them adopting the dress of the ancient Nile Valley is not a "scientific" argument and the image of Nas over King Tuts mummy mask is simply a reflection of the reality that Africans have similar features. And this is the whole point, you cannot claim that these actions on the part of the Egyptian government are anything other than extremist.
Egypt is an independent nation, they have the right to ban anyone that they feel misrepresent their history or identity. We as westerners may like it or not like it, but it is still their right. Still they are not as extreme as some reactions in some other muslim countries when they feel westerners are insulting their religion (as the cases with Muhammad cartoons or Quran burnings have shown).
But I can understand that some Egyptians reacting over Americans and others trying to define their ancestors or their history.
Then one can always discuss if it is fair that they seem to react harder when "black" Americans do it than if "white" Americans and Europeans do it. But they also have reacted when Israeli actors, or actors supporting Israel have portraid persons from Egypt´s history.
quote:Yet you sit here and try to argue that this is legitimate because black people are to steal African history and culture. This is the whole point of you continually posting trying threads about this trying to make it seem that black people in America are the problem. And you are doing this because you can't debate the facts so you resort to trying to find other ways to attack black people for pointing out the obvious facts of history on the Nile.
Some African Americans are always posting a lot of nonsense online where they claim ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, ancient Israel, ancient Native Americans and so on. Of course Egyptians and others have noticed that. So if they reacting when African Americans do the same also in other media is not surprising. As long as some blackcentric fools continue to do such things there will be counter reactions, sometimes maybe exaggerated, but identity can be a sensitive issue for certain people.
quote:These actions of the Egyptian government are not a conspiracy, because it was done publicly. The point is you have created multiple threads on this forum on this topic and topics related to the Cleopatra TV show. You aren't doing this to "inform" anybody because one thread is more than enough to inform people. And sure, this happens here on ES, but not back to back like you are doing. The only reason you are doing this is to try and promote anti-black propaganda as if black people are trying to steal ancient African history when that history was stolen by Europeans not black people. And you are doing it because you keep losing when it comes to facts of history so you resort to simply promoting anti-black propaganda to try and claim that black people don't have the right to speak on African history.
I do not endorse any anti black propaganda, what I am opposed of is Black American, ethnocentric individuals who try to cling on to, and steal cultures that are not theirs. Whatever color for example ancient Egyptians had so have still Black Americans nothing with ancient Egypt to do. Most do not descend from that part of the African continent. The true inheritors to ancient Egypt is todays Egyptians and they are also the ones that have the responsibility to care for the part of that heritage which is located in Egypt. The Afrocentric babblers online do not do much for Egypts heritage, more than a lot of talk on the net.
quote:This attitude is nothing but anti black, because black people have every right to discuss history in the world just like anybody else and that includes ALL PARTs of African history. You trying to argue that they don't have that right is the problem. Just like you trying to argue that they don't have artistic freedom is also the problem.
Black people can discuss what they like but they have no right to distort history or to claim others heritage as their own with the argument that the progenitors of those peoples allegedly were "black".
Seems many of the online Afrocentrics are more interested in declaring other peoples ancestors black, than to discuss their own West African and Central African ancestors.
quote:And there it is, somehow you are trying to argue that black people in America don't have the right to discuss, study and imitate any aspect of culture and history that they want just like anybody else can.
Well, Egyptians have the right to ban anyone they think misrepresents their history. There is nothing you or I can do about it. So just live with it.
quote:Which is nothing but anti-black propaganda. Then according to you black people in America, who were stolen from Africa and stripped of their language and culture from Africa are the source of all the distortion of history around the world. Not to mention you try and act like Africans are the ones who stole African history from Africa and made lies and distortions about this history.
I do not say that Africans stole anything from Africa. Black Americans are Americans, and like their white counterparts they also claim others heritage, the difference is that they have no power to realize their claims. They can not go to Egypt or Mexico and claim the ancient ruins or artifacts. But it does not hinder some of them to express such wishes.
quote:Again, the point is you trying to tell black people what they can and cannot do as scholars and artists. They have every right to identify as Africans and it isn't up to Europeans or anybody else to tell them they can't. Again, it is you attacking black people that is the issue here and promoting or justifying anti black racist extremist actions like that of the Egyptian government. Because again, the Egyptians have no problem imitating and copying the artistic creations of these black people in music while claiming that these black people are appropriating African history.
I do not tell African Americans what to talk about, I have not that power, but if Egyptians start to ban some African Americans for distorting Egypt´s past, or if Native Americans gets offended by having others trying stealing their history I can understand that.
quote:The Ancient culture of the Nile Valley was a black African culture and this is the part you don't like. But because you can't prove otherwise, you resort to antics like these threads supporting the extremist actions of the Egyptian government.
I do not have to prove anything, no people have the obligation to give away their history to cultureless Americans.
Most African Americans are not Egyptians, have never been Egyptians and will never be Egyptians. Better the Afrocentric extremists online learn to live with that fact and start to take interest in their own history instead of harassing Egyptians (and Native Americans and others) who try to defend their history.
quote:African Americans have African features because they are Africans, just like white Americans have European features because they are European and Asian Americans have Asian features because they are Asian.
So how long will they remain African, European or Asian? When will they be American? Never? Or 1000 years from now? So if one should follow that reasoning there are no real Americans, except the Native Americans.
quote:The point is you don't hear any black people complaining about the Egyptians being inspired by it. This is normal and happens all over the planet, but somehow according to YOU black people cannot be inspired by the ancient African history of the Nile. So it is hypocrisy. And you know this but again, you keep spouting anti black propaganda trying to somehow exclude black people from the same rights everybody else has.
It is not according to me, obviously some Egyptians do not want their traditional culture to be associated with rap or other American pop culture. And they have the right to chose themselves what foreign cultures they will accept or not accept. And as you yourself imply, there are some Egyptians who obviously like and accept rap and similar, while others do not. It is fully up to them to decide. Todays Egyptians have many roots in ancient Egypt which hardly any African American has.
quote:And the fact is that modern Egypt promotes itself as "Mediterranean"
Actually, Egypt do indeed have a Mediterranean coast. They also have very ancient contacts with Mediterranean civilisations.
But there are several groups in Egypt, they are not a monolith, some may identify as Mediterranean, some as Arabs, others as Africans, but most just identify as Egyptians.
In the end Egyptians are the stewards of ancient Egypt and its heritage, they are closer geographically, culturally and probably genetically to ancient Egypt than the majority of African Americans. Most African American armchair historians online have not even been to Egypt, they just think that they are some kind of experts on ancient Egypt. They can of course continue their inane babbling online but Egyptians have no obligation to endorse them or welcome them to Egypt if they do not want to.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
A podcast (in German) where the Dutch Kemet exhibition, and the debate around it, is discussed. We also get a report from the 13th International Congress of Egyptologists in Leiden.
quote: Kemet (Conference + Exhibition) Roxane was in Leiden at the 13th International Congress of Egyptologists and visited the hotly debated special exhibition "Kemet - Egypt in Hip-Hop, Jazz, Soul & Funk". So this episode is not only about exciting insights but also about long-simmering conflicts...
September 3 the exhibition Kemet will end. During the weekend there will be some festivities
quote:Last Kemet weekend In the last Kemet weekend, the exhibition will be open for an extra long period on Friday 1 and Saturday 2 September, until 10 p.m. Moreover, admission is free on these days from 5 p.m. On Friday evening DJs O;Riordan and 7LeVeL7 play the best funk, jazz and soul in the museum's Temple Hall. On Saturday evening from 7 pm there is a program with music, workshops, lectures and guided tours.
The exhibition has been nominated for the Museum Magazine Exhibition Award of 2023.
quote:Will 'Kemet' be the exhibition of the year? Our exhibition Kemet – Egypt in hip-hop, jazz, soul & funk has been nominated for the Museum Magazine Exhibition Award of 2023. The professional jury has nominated ten exhibitions from the past year and it is up to the public to choose the winner. You can now vote online via the Museum magazine website. You can do so until Sunday 17 September. Subsequently, on Wednesday 4 October, it will be announced which exhibition will receive the 2023 Exhibition Award.
quote:No I am challenging you who opens all these threads trying to attack black people and blame them for the history of racism and colorism in society and culture. You keep doing this and then pretend to be dumb when someone calls you out on this.
I feel free to open any thread I want which have any connection to subjects which are usually talked about here on ES. And some ethnocentric Americans trying to put their noses into others history are always worth challenging.
And when you do open such threads it is fair game for scrutiny and discussion correct?. This museum exhibit was not created by African Americans nor was it even created in America. Yet you sit here and are trying to use it as a way to attack African Americans. That was the point you keep refusing to address. And just like you have the right to your opinions and express yourself, so do African Americans have the right to do the same, whether you agree with them or not. But instead of simply acknowledging that right, you sit here and attack African Americans whenever they say or do anything you don't agree with as if they don't have the same rights as you do. This is the problem I am pointing out which you keep promoting in almost all of your posts. African American artist freely expressing themselves as Africans are not "attacking" anybody. And for the modern Egyptian government to claim that they are is nothing but extremism, but apparently you are OK with that.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Btw, Funny, I never seen you attack some of the more or less anti white threads which have been posted here on ES, where whites have been called "albinos", "cave peoples" and similar and posters are accused of being nazis or similar. Then I do not see you post long diatribes about having to challenge anti whiteness. Seems a bit biased.
You don't know me nor what I have and haven't posted about on this forum. And it isn't relevant to you making spam posts on the same topic as a proxy to attack African Americans.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Egypt is an independent nation, they have the right to ban anyone that they feel misrepresent their history or identity. We as westerners may like it or not like it, but it is still their right. Still they are not as extreme as some reactions in some other muslim countries when they feel westerners are insulting their religion (as the cases with Muhammad cartoons or Quran burnings have shown).
Again, the Egyptian Government knows full well that they do not have the power to attack African American artists and their freedom of expression. That is the entire point. So they are attacking a European museum for exhibiting African American cultural expression and not the African American artists themselves. African American pop culture is one of the biggest exports of the United States and has been for over 100 years, yet according to you attacking the Dutch Museum is somehow not extremism in the slightest. That doesnt even make sense.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: But I can understand that some Egyptians reacting over Americans and others trying to define their ancestors or their history.
So you are saying that Egyptians promoting extreme anti-African behaviors is OK. That is the problem because it isn't OK. And that is why I keep calling you out because you sit here and complain about African American artists simply dressing up like an ancient Nile Valley African, claiming this is attacking Egyptians when it isnt. But when Egypt literally promotes extremist anti-African sentiments and actions, that is perfectly fine. Suppressing free expression and freedom of speech because you don't like it is not "understandable", it is extremist and anti-African. Not to mention African American artists have dressed up like all kinds of different cultures, but only somehow in your mind is it a problem when it comes to the Nile Valley, which is actually IN AFRICA. So you are admitting that the whole point of the thread is to promote extremist anti-African, anti-black, anti-African American propaganda.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Then one can always discuss if it is fair that they seem to react harder when "black" Americans do it than if "white" Americans and Europeans do it. But they also have reacted when Israeli actors, or actors supporting Israel have portraid persons from Egypt´s history.
It isn't fair. Period. To sit here and act like it is while complaining about your rights to express yourself on this forum, no matter how backward and nonsensical your posts are is hypocrisy.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Some African Americans are always posting a lot of nonsense online where they claim ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, ancient Israel, ancient Native Americans and so on. Of course Egyptians and others have noticed that. So if they reacting when African Americans do the same also in other media is not surprising. As long as some blackcentric fools continue to do such things there will be counter reactions, sometimes maybe exaggerated, but identity can be a sensitive issue for certain people.
And here you go again whining about some random African Americans that you don't cite by name and show how they have anything to do with any of the artists in this museum exhibit. But because of that, you are arguing that it is perfectly fine for Egypt to promote extremist actions to suppress free expression and speech. That is like me saying because white nationalists post hate speech against Africans on stormfront about Africans, it is OK to ban you and anybody like you on this forum. But this is literally all you do on this forum to try and stifle any serious discussion that you don't like, right, wrong or otherwise. You don't care about facts as that comes from free expression, discussion and analysis of evidence. You just want to push propaganda against Africans as if they have no rights to the same free expression of ideas as anybody else. And the hypocrisy is outrageous as you are sitting here as a European trying to tell Africans what they can and cannot discuss relating to African history. To the point of supporting extremist actions of the Egyptian government trying to do just that.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: I do not endorse any anti black propaganda, what I am opposed of is Black American, ethnocentric individuals who try to cling on to, and steal cultures that are not theirs. Whatever color for example ancient Egyptians had so have still Black Americans nothing with ancient Egypt to do. Most do not descend from that part of the African continent. The true inheritors to ancient Egypt is todays Egyptians and they are also the ones that have the responsibility to care for the part of that heritage which is located in Egypt. The Afrocentric babblers online do not do much for Egypts heritage, more than a lot of talk on the net.
Where is the proof that these African American artists have done anything to provoke Egypt into such actions. Because you haven't shown it. You just keep citing random anonymous African Americans somewhere on the internet as support for this nonsense with no direct evidence of connection to anybody in this exhibition. This is all you do on this forum. The internet is full of all kinds of people with all kinds of ideas, yet you keep citing random individuals as proof all African Americans think and believe the same thing to promote anti-African and anti-black propaganda, with your passive aggressive nonsense. If you cant' prove any direct evidence that these artists did anything to actually justify this kind of response other than simply dressing like or using ancient Nile Valley Africans as artistic inspiration, you yourself are promoting anti-African propaganda.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Black people can discuss what they like but they have no right to distort history or to claim others heritage as their own with the argument that the progenitors of those peoples allegedly were "black".
How is artistic expression distorting anything? African American artists have a long history of being inspired by many different cultures all over the world. Again, this is you who has had every chance on this forum to discuss and debate facts related to the ancient Nile, trying to use any means to stifle free speech, not because it is necessarily wrong, but because you don't like it. Africans have every right to discuss African history and to sit here and claim that somehow black skin in ancient Africa is somehow not based on evidence and science is simply you promoting anti-black and anti-African propaganda. And this is the reason why the Egyptian government is attacking it, because they have an explicit anti-African and anti-black bias, especially when it comes to the ancient Nile Valley. And this has absolutely nothing to do with facts or evidence and this is exactly what you believe in and are supporting. Because at no time on this forum have you proven to anybody that ancient Africans on the Nile Valley did not create the ancient civilization there, even though you have had every opportunity to prove it. And you haven't. So you resort to simply promoting the suppression of free speech and thought because you don't like it. While claiming every right to express yourself and your nonsense.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Seems many of the online Afrocentrics are more interested in declaring other peoples ancestors black, than to discuss their own West African and Central African ancestors.
Again, attacking anonymous Afrocentrics, because some artist dressed like an ancient African is making up nonsense. How do you know that any of the artists in this exhibition are Afrocentric? You keep trying to make connections with no proof in order to promote this propaganda against freedom of expression, freedom of thought and freedom of speech as somehow justified when it comes to Africans. And then try and claim this is reasonable and acceptable to spew this nonsense on this forum under the guise of free speech and not get called out for it.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Well, Egyptians have the right to ban anyone they think misrepresents their history. There is nothing you or I can do about it. So just live with it.
Egypt does not have the right to suppress free speech or artistic expression or any other human rights. The fact that you are sitting here arguing it is OK for you to sit here and say this under the protection of "free speech" but don't extend that same right to anybody else is the problem. Because if someone tried to ban you over it, you would go whining and complaining while literally arguing that this kind of suppressing of speech is justified against Africans, with no proof, no nothing, all just because you don't like it. And you have not shown any viable arguments why black Africans did not create the ancient culture in the Nile Valley, all you keep promoting is half truths, innuendo and nonsense.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: I do not say that Africans stole anything from Africa. Black Americans are Americans, and like their white counterparts they also claim others heritage, the difference is that they have no power to realize their claims. They can not go to Egypt or Mexico and claim the ancient ruins or artifacts. But it does not hinder some of them to express such wishes.
Again, this is about artistic freedom of expression and the larger issue of freedom of speech and why you keep sitting here demanding that African Americans right to free speech and expression should be suppressed but yours shouldn't, even if you are wrong as two left shoes. And again, you have no proof or evidence that any of these artists are doing anything more than practicing their right to freedom of expression, while suggesting those rights shouldn't exist.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: I do not tell African Americans what to talk about, I have not that power, but if Egyptians start to ban some African Americans for distorting Egypt´s past, or if Native Americans gets offended by having others trying stealing their history I can understand that.
Again, here we go blaming all the bad things in the world on Africans and African Americans and suggesting that they be suppressed and their rights don't exist because some random anonymous person on the internet said something. I can't believe you are sitting here being serious.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: I do not have to prove anything, no people have the obligation to give away their history to cultureless Americans.
Then you have no right to argue that what you are saying is correct unless you can prove it. You haven't shown how these artists and their freedom of expression is an attack on anybody. You haven't shown how ancient Africans couldn't be black in the Nile Valley. All you keep doing is arguing that you have the right under freedom of speech to sit here and attack African Americans and Africans for having ideas that you disagree with, without proving why those ideas are wrong. And you claim that you have that right to be wrong, but nobody else does, even if you haven't shown where in any particular case someone is wrong.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Most African Americans are not Egyptians, have never been Egyptians and will never be Egyptians. Better the Afrocentric extremists online learn to live with that fact and start to take interest in their own history instead of harassing Egyptians (and Native Americans and others) who try to defend their history.
And neither are you so what gives you special rights to discuss and promote Egyptian, Mexican or any other history? Because according to you, only Mexicans should discuss Mexican history, only Europeans should discuss European history and only Egyptians should discuss "Egyptian" history (even though "Egypt" didn't exist before the Greeks). It is all complete hypocrisy because you don't actually believe that because you constantly speak on history that isn't "your" history all the time. You just want to suppress freedom of speech on the part of Africans because somehow you don't want them to talk about "black" people because according to you "black" people are the problem. And if someone calls you out on that BS, the first thing you argue is freedom of speech, while literally saying Africans don't have the right to talk about African history and you aren't an African. Come on dude. And you still haven't shown how any of this is relevant to artistic expression as artists always are influenced by cultures around the world. Which means you also believe African Americans have no right to any kind of expression at all if it promotes "black" people in any way. But according to you, that is perfectly acceptable free speech.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: So how long will they remain African, European or Asian? When will they be American? Never? Or 1000 years from now? So if one should follow that reasoning there are no real Americans, except the Native Americans.
The point is why are you turning a museum exhibit on African American artists and their artistic influences from the Nile Valley into a discussion of ancient history when it is just artistic expression. And why do you constantly feel the need to police and scrutinize expression of Africans over everybody else as if there aren't even more non Africans spewing nonsensical opinions and views all over the internet. I don't understand how you can sit here and argue that hypocrisy and anti African propaganda is legitimate free speech. If you have some proof of these artists doing more than expressing themselves then prove it.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: It is not according to me, obviously some Egyptians do not want their traditional culture to be associated with rap or other American pop culture. And they have the right to chose themselves what foreign cultures they will accept or not accept. And as you yourself imply, there are some Egyptians who obviously like and accept rap and similar, while others do not. It is fully up to them to decide. Todays Egyptians have many roots in ancient Egypt which hardly any African American has.
Again, your whole argument is that Africans don't have the right to freedom of expression because "black" is a problem. And you don't see how that is anti-black and anti-African. And this is completely without any proof or evidence that these artists are actively attacking anybody anywhere. But you claim their rights and freedoms should be suppressed because "black people is a problem. And you literally feel that you have the "right" to promote this kind of suppression of free speech as part of your own free speech rights. Am I correct?
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Actually, Egypt do indeed have a Mediterranean coast. They also have very ancient contacts with Mediterranean civilisations.
But there are several groups in Egypt, they are not a monolith, some may identify as Mediterranean, some as Arabs, others as Africans, but most just identify as Egyptians.
And there you go contradicting yourself. So if Egypt is an African country with black Africans in it today, how is it a problem for Africans to claim that there were black Africans on the Nile in the past? And why are you as a non Egyptian and non African sitting here and trying to argue that you have the right to speak about African or Egyptian history, while Africans don't. Again, where is the proof of these artists being influenced and identifying with the obvious ancient African culture of the Nile Valley as a problem? The only thing I see from you is hypocrisy in promoting the idea that African speech should be suppressed because of "black people" being the problem, which is exactly what this response by the Egyptian government is all about. And according to you suppressing the rights of Africans is fine to the point of even you saying it is fine is seen as legitimate free speech and nobody should call you out on it.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: In the end Egyptians are the stewards of ancient Egypt and its heritage, they are closer geographically, culturally and probably genetically to ancient Egypt than the majority of African Americans. Most African American armchair historians online have not even been to Egypt, they just think that they are some kind of experts on ancient Egypt. They can of course continue their inane babbling online but Egyptians have no obligation to endorse them or welcome them to Egypt if they do not want to.
Egypt does not have the rights to suppress anybodies freedom of expression or speech just because they may have views they don't like. And the only problem I see that you support suppressing free speech over is "black people" which is the problem you seem to have with African history. And according to you any African who promotes any ideas about "black people" in history deserves to have their rights and freedoms suppressed, because you don't like the idea of "black people" having a history in certain parts of Africa. Am I misunderstanding this?
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:And when you do open such threads it is fair game for scrutiny and discussion correct?. This museum exhibit was not created by African Americans nor was it even created in America. Yet you sit here and are trying to use it as a way to attack African Americans. That was the point you keep refusing to address. And just like you have the right to your opinions and express yourself, so do African Americans have the right to do the same, whether you agree with them or not. But instead of simply acknowledging that right, you sit here and attack African Americans whenever they say or do anything you don't agree with as if they don't have the same rights as you do. This is the problem I am pointing out which you keep promoting in almost all of your posts. African American artist freely expressing themselves as Africans are not "attacking" anybody. And for the modern Egyptian government to claim that they are is nothing but extremism, but apparently you are OK with that.
The exhibition was centered around African American and other "black" popular cultures representation of Ancient Egypt. If those artists had not used Ancient Egyptian culture and symbols in connection with their music there would have not been any exhibition. The Egyptians saw it as an exhibition which showed and highlighted African American artists who appropriated Egyptian culture.
So Egyptians obviously saw these artistis work as a way of distorting their ancient past
quote:You don't know me nor what I have and haven't posted about on this forum. And it isn't relevant to you making spam posts on the same topic as a proxy to attack African Americans.
I have read through many older threads, and you have not been especially active in debunking or opposing anti white posts or anti Native American posts. But when someone dares to criticize the behaviour of some African Americans you come whining.
quote:Again, the Egyptian Government knows full well that they do not have the power to attack African American artists and their freedom of expression. That is the entire point. So they are attacking a European museum for exhibiting African American cultural expression and not the African American artists themselves. African American pop culture is one of the biggest exports of the United States and has been for over 100 years, yet according to you attacking the Dutch Museum is somehow not extremism in the slightest. That doesnt even make sense.
Not everyone want their ancient culture to become a part of American pop culture. Identity is important in some countries, especially countries with much longer history than USA. Since the museum showed things that was seen as cultural appropriation they too were targeted by Egypt. And Egypt have maybe no possibility to criticize every single artist who appropriates Egyptian culture, but they can target institutions who encourage it. And since the museum works in Egypt they have the possibility and right to decide over if the museum shall be involved in the handling of ancient Egyptian cultural material.
quote: So you are saying that Egyptians promoting extreme anti-African behaviors is OK.
Every country have their problems. Better Americans solve their own problems instead.There seems to be enough divide in the American society to adress.
quote:That is the problem because it isn't OK. And that is why I keep calling you out because you sit here and complain about African American artists simply dressing up like an ancient Nile Valley African, claiming this is attacking Egyptians when it isnt.
Unfortunately a minority of African Americans try to culturally appropriate culture and history from several other peoples (Israelites, Native Americans and some more), and that ought to be adressed. There are also African Americans who challenge such behaviour and speak out against it. But I do not know if you are one of them?
quote:But when Egypt literally promotes extremist anti-African sentiments and actions, that is perfectly fine. Suppressing free expression and freedom of speech because you don't like it is not "understandable", it is extremist and anti-African. Not to mention African American artists have dressed up like all kinds of different cultures, but only somehow in your mind is it a problem when it comes to the Nile Valley, which is actually IN AFRICA. So you are admitting that the whole point of the thread is to promote extremist anti-African, anti-black, anti-African American propaganda.
Some African Americans (and also Euro Americans) have dressed up in Native American garb, claimed to be the "real" natives and even sold Native inspired handicraft as if it was true Native American cultural products. I have spoken up against such things both here on ES and any more on other platforms.
I do not know the exact purpose of this thread since I did not start it. You can maybe ask the thread starter.
quote:And there you go contradicting yourself. So if Egypt is an African country with black Africans in it today, how is it a problem for Africans to claim that there were black Africans on the Nile in the past? And why are you as a non Egyptian and non African sitting here and trying to argue that you have the right to speak about African or Egyptian history, while Africans don't. Again, where is the proof of these artists being influenced and identifying with the obvious ancient African culture of the Nile Valley as a problem? The only thing I see from you is hypocrisy in promoting the idea that African speech should be suppressed because of "black people" being the problem, which is exactly what this response by the Egyptian government is all about. And according to you suppressing the rights of Africans is fine to the point of even you saying it is fine is seen as legitimate free speech and nobody should call you out on it.
The main point is that African AMERICANS have nothing to do with Egypt or the Nile valley, so regardless the color of Nile valley inhabitants so is not the history of the Nile valley any American business. They can of course be interested and study it, just as Swedes or Japanese can, but they can not claim it as theirs more than any other foreigners can.
Some African Americans even go so far as harassing an Egyptian woman online because she posts pictures of a statue which have not the color that these individuals want to think that ancient Egyptians had. Such behaviour do not improve Egyptians impression of African Americans.
quote: Egypt does not have the rights to suppress anybodies freedom of expression or speech just because they may have views they don't like. And the only problem I see that you support suppressing free speech over is "black people" which is the problem you seem to have with African history. And according to you any African who promotes any ideas about "black people" in history deserves to have their rights and freedoms suppressed, because you don't like the idea of "black people" having a history in certain parts of Africa. Am I misunderstanding this?
Egypt has the right to decide who visits Egypt, who works in Egypt or which foreign cultural products that shall be imported or promoted in Egypt. That is rights most countries have.
