Its a clickbait title, and he spouts some obvious inaccuracies, but interestingly he mentions disaproval of Ancient Egyptians being portrayed by non-Black people too, links this to the political climate, and isnt automatically trying to claim 'Arab' either (I think he says Arab once in passing, but doesnt seem to be trying to say AE' werent Black so were therefore Arab).
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quote:Zack Galante 15 hours ago (edited) I love your videos … but im surprised u left out Strabo a Greek historian and the only person to see cleopatra & her family and he quoted "Three classes inhabited the city (Alexandria in Egypt): first the Aegyptian or native stock of people, who were quick-tempered and not inclined to civil life; and secondly the mercenary class, who were severe and numerous and intractable..; and, third, the tribe of the Alexandrians, who also were not distinctly inclined to civil life, and for the same reasons, but still they were better than those others, for even though they were a mixed people, still they were Greeks by origin and mindful of the customs common to the Greeks."
Starbo also stated that cleopatra was the only illegitimate child of Ptolemy XII Auletes.
quote:SignalHillTV 14 hours ago You are close Zach lol Strabo is reporting in the third person. He is saying the Egyptians are stating why she is ineligible to be queen and why Bernice Iv could rule. So he states he had three daughters with only Bernice Iv being legitimate and the rest of the kids, Cleopatra Vii, and Arisinoe Vi, are illegitimate, and the sons were too young to rule. They expelled Ptolemy Xii Auletes. So most scholars believe their mother/mothers were Egyptian because they could write in hieroglyphics. Then remember Alexander the Great married Roxanna. Not sure what happens to Cleopatra V she is not mentioned again after Bernice Vi's birth which was recorded. "Strabo Geography Book 1" Then Zack you can also see how they are represented in Hieroglyphics they both clearly have skin tone) Perfume Payparus. Getty Images
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SignalHillTV 14 hours ago Now Zach before I go cut and paste and it will take you to the scholarly article. "From the reconstruction, Thur and her colleagues concluded that Arsinoe had an African mother (the Ptolemies were an ethnically Greek dynasty). That conclusion led to splashy headlines suggesting that Cleopatra, too, was African" everything in parentheses, now her, and Cleopatra could have had a different mother. But when you get a chance in your free time notice how they were excited when they found her remains in Esphues, and how they try to challenge and dismiss them when they said her mother was African. So think about that when you see how Cleopatra is depicted in Hieroglyphics standing next to Arisinoe because they are the same complexion.
quote:Zack Galante 14 hours ago @SignalHillTV Duane W. Roller in his book Cleopatra: A Biography, published by Oxford University Press in 2010. Roller argues that Cleopatra’s mother may have been a 2nd wife of Ptolemaios XII & that she may have been a member of the Ptolemaic royal family named Berenike & her husband Psenptais, who was an Egyptian high priest. Concluding cleopatra having a black Egyptian mother.
[QUOTE] 13 hours ago @Zack Galante Yeah Zach if I had the present a case in Crimal court I would say her mother is unknown. However in Civil court more than likely I would agree with Duane Roller that her mother was Egyptian from a Memphis priestess family. Then I would argue that she and Arisnoe VI have the same African mother. It's a reason why Bernice VI could not read or write the Egyptian language but they both could. Now Elizabeth Taylor they actually copied her look from hieroglyphics braids etc So whenever you get a chance to check out the getting images the person she is always holding hands with is Arisnoe IV. They found Arsinoe IV remains but they have not found Cleopatra Vii's (yet) maybe they never will.
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SignalHillTV SignalHillTV 13 hours ago @Zack Galante Yeah Zack he mentions Cleopatra she is one of the three daughters. He is talking about Bernice IV it appears you are saying Bernike. The other two daughters are Arisnoe IV and Cleopatra. If I picked someone to play Cleopatra I would go with Zendaya. So if you watch the channel in Egypt the Royal Wife Cleopatra's V offspring would be eligible to rule. Children by a lesser wife could not unless they were male, so that is why is stated they were too young. So Zach people may try to stump you and state what the Greek word for illegitimate is or state what Strabo meant. But he is just reporting, the Egyptians expelled him. Once Bernice VI is executed now they are eligible to be co-regent with one of the sons./QUOTE]
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Nor do we know the identity of her mother. It has been suggested, based on Cleopatra’s ability with the Egyptian language and her devotion to the Egyptian pantheon, that she may have been a member of the family that held the hereditary priesthood of Ptah . This influential ruling family held high-level positions in ancient Egyptian cities like Memphis.
We have no securely identified portraits of her other than those found on her coins, all of which vary considerably. So any claims as to the specifics of her appearance can be safely dismissed.
As can sweeping statements regarding her identity. Cleopatra was simultaneously Macedonian, Egyptian and Roman. In the habit of emphasising different aspects of her identity to suit different audiences, she would not have considered herself either white or black, because modern concepts of race would have been unknown to her.
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posted
Saw the first episode today. It was good for the most part. The experts acknowledged the Ptolemaic dynasty's Macedonian origins while pointing out the gaps our knowledge about in Cleopatra's family tree. I did feel that too many of the actors in the dramatization spoke with British accents though.
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Maybe the most authentic had been to let them speak Greek, Latin and Egyptian languages and had English sub texts.
I have noticed in some American productions certain characters talk British English, maybe as a sign of some kind of sophistication. Romans in films often talk with British accent. If they had spoken with Italian accent maybe some people would have associated it with gangster movies.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2683 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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I saw the promo on Netflix and they made the entire dynasty look black, including Caesarion. All of which is totally fake and shows this is nothing but propaganda, as in there were no black dynasties in ancient KMT so they need to make one up using the Greeks. Its a complete farce and shows they have no intent or desire to show the actual indigenous dynasties as black, like the Middle Kingdom, New Kingdom and so forth, otherwise they would have just done it. And when was the last time these Afro British actually did anything based on their own roots in Africa?
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Heather Basten is an English casting director based in London. She is known for her work with A24, Blumhouse, Film4, Amazon Studios, BBC and more. She has been recognised as a Screen International 'Star of Tomorrow', a BAFTA Breakthrough Artist, and a CSA Artios & CDG Nominee. Her most notable work includes "Dreaming Whilst Black", the first UK TV series from A24. Other recent works include BIFA-winning stone age film "The Origin"; the sophomore feature from UK producer Oliver Kassman (Saint Maud), and the US feature "House of Spoils" for Amazon Studios & Blumhouse.
Black American actors slighted as Brits nab roles: 'We can't tell our own stories?'
Samuel L Jackson’s critique of black British actors taking US roles has sparked a heated debate in Hollywood where African American performers said the hiring of UK talent is another form of industry discrimination they face on a regular basis...
When justifying the choice of hiring a British actor over an American, casting directors and film-makers sometimes cite the prestigious training in the UK at elite schools like the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art.
In an interview with the Observer, Peele (Get Out director) said he wanted to hire an American but was so blown away by Kaluuya: “At the end of the day, he was the best person for the role. He did the audition and it was a slam dunk.”
In 2013, Spike Lee told the Guardian he wasn’t bothered by the trend of British actors taking American roles: “They’re well-trained. They came through on the stage not on a music video or whatever. So their acting’s impeccable and then they go into films.”
In addition it's also often cheaper to hire British actors and in some instances the UK government offers financial incentives to do it There will not be much publicity around these cost factors
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posted
I finished the Cleopatra docuseries today. It was a good series with a nice balance of expert commentary and historical dramatizations. I still stand by the actors' British accents being a little distracting though.
BTW, the first episode of the series states that the Egyptians of Cleopatra's time would have ranged in color from pale to dark brown, which as we all know is true of Egyptians today, so it isn't even like they're trying to divorce modern Egyptians from their Ptolemaic-era ancestors like a lot of the haters have claimed.
posted
Cleopatras dynasty lived in Egypt for about 300 years so in a way it has become a part of Egyptian history. But she is not a part of American history, or should be a part of American racial agenda.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2683 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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she trying to attention and social media views. If she was Greek she would at least have some footing to complain Her Tik Tok subheading is "Mentally unstable but cute" https://www.tiktok.com/@noraelzeinyPosts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Without a DNA test we have no idea if she has some Greek DNA, or ancient Egyptian DNA or other DNA, she lives in a country where many peoples have lived, so they are all a part of her history, but not the history of most Americans.
And some of the reactions she got on social media are really crazy and insulting. But I recognize those reactions, I have seen similar reactions when Native Americans have stated online that the ancient Olmecs were not black.
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posted
Nora and many other Egyptians are pushing the idea that there was no distinction between the Ptolemies and the native population of the Nile. The Ptolemies were Greek and not like the average population along the Nile. It is part of this myth of the ancient Nile being a "mediterranean" population as if there was no distinction between Levantines, Nile Valley groups and Greeks. All of those populations are not the same even if they were along the Mediterranean.
But even more important, it goes against the bigger historical issue which is the Greeks appropriated the culture of the Nile and claimed it as their own. Not to mention that the Greeks promoted Greek as the lingua franca of the elites, scholarship and trade, which began the process of the death of MDU NTR. Which led to the language going extinct under the Romans. Yet these people are holding these Greeks and Romans as somehow the same as the indigenous populations because they want to pretend nothing has changed in all that time. As if the populations of the old kingdom were no different from the populations of the Ptolemaic dynasty and no different than the populations in Egypt today as all 'mediterranean'.
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: I finished the Cleopatra docuseries today. It was a good series with a nice balance of expert commentary and historical dramatizations. I still stand by the actors' British accents being a little distracting though.
BTW, the first episode of the series states that the Egyptians of Cleopatra's time would have ranged in color from pale to dark brown, which as we all know is true of Egyptians today, so it isn't even like they're trying to divorce modern Egyptians from their Ptolemaic-era ancestors like a lot of the haters have claimed.
Yes it was actually very good, and a lot of bruhaha over nothing.
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posted
Seems like the word war between Netflix (and those who support the Netflix show) and many Egyptians (and others) has become quite intense. Adele James has also received a lot of hate on social media. Here are some reactions on her Twitter after one of her comments
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: It seems though that some Egyptians had a horn in the side of "Afrocentrists" also before Netflix Cleopatra film.
Here is an Egyptian guy who talks about Afrocentrism (mostly in its American form)
If you test with different testing companies you are likely to get different results
These companies interpret their data and label it and they have sample different data for comparison
Here they say he's about 60% Middle Eastern yet also say his closet ancestors is Ancient Egyptian. One would have to go into an in-depth analysis of their methodology to judge this
In their color code on the map they classify Egypt as green "Middle Eastern" and classify the Maghreb excluding Egypt as "North African" I suspect 23nadMe does not classify this way currently
I am also suspicious of the was these private testing companies do things. If they observe that most modern Egyptian want to be seen as related to dynastic Egyptians they may suggest that in the results to satisfy the customer
This man might have some percentage of Dynastic Egyptian ancestry but I am not convinced these companies currently have the ability to determine that
He seems most surprised that it says he is 4.9% Japanese/ Korean
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the average American, if having no knowledge about her would probably say she is either black, black-hispanic or "mixed"
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: ^^ Obviously someone in her comments thought she was a Filipina
Here in my place people would probably called her Arab or Middle Eastern
In many places in America there are few Arabs and many dress like other Americans so it's not clear what the ancestry of people walking around on the street is exactly.
She resembles Arabs and ancient Egyptians in my view. The large size of her eyes, even disregarding the makeup, look like some of the Egyptian art
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Seems there is a whole ongoing campaign on YouTube and TikTok where young Egyptians scold American Afrocentrists
Seems the Netflix documentary has awaken a lot of resentment
They should be embarrassed by their OVER REACTION. But, their OVER REACTION is revealing their anti blackness... the majority of the cast looked like average Egyptians and the priests were historically accurate
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Basically this show is designed to give the racists online a big old target to attack without obviously looking racist. Again, if these people REALLY wanted to tell the story of a black ancient Nile Valley they would have done one using the indigenous black dynasties from long before the Greeks. But obviously the implication here is that they needed white scholars and executives to support this and it is highly unlikely that a white scholar would come out in public support of black dynasties in the old, middle or new kingdom. So they play this game of giving some vague support for the possibility of some black ancestry for Cleopatra but in reality it is nowhere near what this show is portraying. If Cleopatras mother was already mixed, then there is no way she or any of the other main characters would be as black as they are depicted in the show.
But the only reason the scholars and everybody else is OK with this is because they know full well it makes the argument around a black ancient Nile Valley a debate over Cleopatra. Because the weight of evidence goes against any conclusion she was black and they know it. And they don't want to support a black indigenous dynasty so they decided to allow this because they know it will draw racist hatred because it is based on limited evidence, half truths and nonsense. And it tells the entire world that "black people", "black scholars" and "afrocentrics" all believe this as if Cleopatra and her ancestry is the cornerstone of the actual issue of whether the ancient Nile Valley was black. And while they try to promote how they stand against racism in the telling of history, they themselves are showing their racism by not similarly standing behind a show about a black Queen like Ahmose Nefertari because almost no white scholar will come out and say that she was black. It allows white scholars to pretend to be liberals who support the idea of blacks in the ancient Nile Valley by just acknowledging the possibility of black ancestry without definite proof.But that is without actually having to go on the record and say that any of the great Kings or Queens of the ancient Nile in the Old, Middle or New Kingdom were black where the evidence is more obvious and solid. This is no accident because they know full well their job is to avoid doing that as much as humanly possible.
It is no different than how they deliberately write these DNA papers to suggest things that are supportive of the Eurocentric trolls online who constantly regurgitate these papers in debates over ancient North Africa. All of this is deliberate and willful propaganda and nothing else. And the crux of the propaganda is promoting the idea that "afrocentrics" from America are the main ones promoting that the ancient Nile Valley was black. This is knowing full well that many historical white scholars have also supported this and that many black scholars who also support this are not "afrocentrics". And there were no "afrocentrics" in the Cleopatra documentary, including Jada Pinkett and the woman talking of her grandmother saying Cleopatra was black.
You have to know that Egyptology as a discipline primarily has a set of talking points that it teaches to all students. And those talking points are very well defined to promote this idea of a non black African ancient Nile valley. It starts with things like the same cherry picked images being used over and over, such as Rahotep and Nofret, to the idea that KMT means black soil and the idea that nubians were the only "true blacks" of the ancient NIle Valley. Most of this deliberate campaign of misinformation is based on omitting all substantial evidence to the contrary which any student of Egyptology knows full well. But they cannot go off the "script" of what Egyptology promotes as part of its public face. That means omitting large swaths of writings, art, tombs and so forth in order to focus only on those that are defined as part of the doctrine. So the Nefertiti Bust always gets promoted while Amenhotep III's tomb does not. Talk of war against and images of so-called Nubian captives gets promotes while the Prophecy of Neferti and numerous high officials named Nehesy do not. And above all else, Cleopatra is almost always included, while Ahmose Nefertari and Queen Nodmet are not. And of course DNA studies on certain anonymous later period mummies in the North gets published but already existing DNA from various royals and others does not.
And this is why they have to attack African scholarship because they are not obliged to follow that script.
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posted
I wonder if they will make any documentary of Amanirenas. If they did they could avoid a lot of criticism, they could show an admittedly "Black" Nile Valley queen and they could avoid the eternal question about the skin color of the Old, Middle or New Kingdom Egyptians. And on top of that it would be an exciting story, new to much of the audience instead of the story of Cleopatra which has been filmed countless of times, and with countless of documentaries and books about her.
Shall be interesting to see if Netflix makes more documentaries in the African queens series or if the backlash makes them drop the series.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2683 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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Thank goodness for the existence of youtube, on there I can watch Egyptian news and tv shows, Eritrean news and TV shows. On both you will find a range of phenotypes.
Neither woman's phenotype is singular to their respective countries
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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Afrocentrism is NOT a coping mechanism. It has a 150 year history in the US & Caribbean. Some people are really racist and under educated which is a sin in a world where there is google.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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posted
I see that the man in Noras video holds up this book
Clarence E Walker, 2001: We Can't Go Home Again: An Argument About Afrocentrism
On Amazon it is presented like this:
quote:Afrocentrism has been a controversial but popular movement in schools and universities across America, as well as in black communities. But in We Can't Go Home Again, historian Clarence E. Walker puts Afrocentrism to the acid test, in a thoughtful, passionate, and often blisteringly funny analysis that melts away the pretensions of this "therapeutic mythology." As expounded by Molefi Kete Asante, Yosef Ben-Jochannan, and others, Afrocentrism encourages black Americans to discard their recent history, with its inescapable white presence, and to embrace instead an empowering vision of their African (specifically Egyptian) ancestors as the source of western civilization. Walker marshals a phalanx of serious scholarship to rout these ideas. He shows, for instance, that ancient Egyptian society was not black but a melange of ethnic groups, and questions whether, in any case, the pharaonic regime offers a model for blacks today, asking "if everybody was a King, who built the pyramids?" But for Walker, Afrocentrism is more than simply bad history--it substitutes a feel-good myth of the past for an attempt to grapple with the problems that still confront blacks in a racist society. The modern American black identity is the product of centuries of real history, as Africans and their descendants created new, hybrid cultures--mixing many African ethnic influences with native and European elements. Afrocentrism replaces this complex history with a dubious claim to distant glory. "Afrocentrism offers not an empowering understanding of black Americans' past," Walker concludes, "but a pastiche of 'alien traditions' held together by simplistic fantasies." More to the point, this specious history denies to black Americans the dignity, and power, that springs from an honest understanding of their real history.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: I wonder if they will make any documentary of Amanirenas. If they did they could avoid a lot of criticism, they could show an admittedly "Black" Nile Valley queen and they could avoid the eternal question about the skin color of the Old, Middle or New Kingdom Egyptians. And on top of that it would be an exciting story, new to much of the audience instead of the story of Cleopatra which has been filmed countless of times, and with countless of documentaries and books about her.
Shall be interesting to see if Netflix makes more documentaries in the African queens series or if the backlash makes them drop the series.
If the series gets dropped it is because it is garbage. And actually, given the quality of the series so far, it probably is best they dont do any more. If they wanted to tell the truth of black history on the Nile, they would have started at the beginning. Using racism as an excuse means they are simply promoting racism in denying the facts. There is far more evidence of black rulers in all dynasties going back to the beginning of KMT than there is for Cleopatra. So obviously they aren't serious about wanting to tell 'hidden' black history.
The main reason the Kandakes would make a good historical series is that most Queens in the NIle Valley were not warrior Queens, including Hatshepsut. So they are very unique in that regard.
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Let’s Just Call The Outrage Around Queen Cleopatra What It Is: Racism BY SAGAL MOHAMMED
quote:Cleopatra’s race has long been regarded as ambiguous by scholars and historians. What we do know is that her father, Ptolemy XII, was of Macedonian-Greek descent, a member of the family that conquered Egypt more than 200 years before Cleopatra’s birth in 69 BC. Her mother’s identity, on the other hand, is unknown – although she may well have been Egyptian – which is where things get a little more complex. “Cleopatra ruled in Egypt long before the Arab settlement in North Africa,” said Dr Sally Ann Ashton, a research scientist and author of Cleopatra and Egypt, who appears in the documentary. “If the maternal side of her family were indigenous women, they would’ve been African, and this should be reflected in contemporary representations of Cleopatra.”
To be clear, the docu-drama isn’t, in fact, arguing that Cleopatra was a dark-skinned Black woman with no Macedonian-Greek heritage at all, although the media storm around it might make you assume otherwise. Rather, its creators, including scholar Shelley Haley, professor of classics and African studies at Hamilton College, have asked us to imagine her as a woman of mixed heritage, hence the casting of a biracial actress. “Her ethnicity is not the focus of Queen Cleopatra, but we did intentionally decide to depict her of mixed ethnicity to reflect theories about Cleopatra’s possible Egyptian ancestry and the multicultural nature of ancient Egypt,” a statement from Netflix reads.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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posted
An interesting article about why many Egyptians dislike the Netflix Cleopatra. The article gives a background. It explains the historical roots of the conflict.
A couple of excerpts. Reading the whole article is recommended:
quote:Why Netflix’s ‘Queen Cleopatra’ Has Egypt up in Arms
Western leaders and filmmakers have long denied the link between modern Egypt and its ancient heritage. --- Most Egyptians’ objections to the show and the primary reason for frustration in Egypt is not due to racism and is not about Adele James’s being Black, per se. It is about the decision by the makers of the show to challenge historic anti-Black racism in the United States through revisionism of another racialized people’s own history without caring about how these people might react. --- Ending the marginalization of Black and other minority actors on the screen is long overdue; and recognizing the roles of Black protagonists in history is important and much needed. But doing this at the expense of another nonwhite people victimized by Western colonialism and imperialism—and showing a lack of respect or understanding for this people’s demand to be recognized as the owners of their own history—is misguided and counterproductive. If the intention of Queen Cleopatra’s makers was to reverse decades of racism on the screen, what they ended up achieving is a perpetuation of this very racism.
Why Netflix’s ‘Queen Cleopatra’ Has Egypt up in Arms Foreign policy, MAY 14, 2023 Link to the article
By Sara Khorshid, a doctoral candidate at Western University in Canada.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2683 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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posted
So these people are another non white group? I think the NAAN/MENA's did to take a deep dive into that sentence....
North African Arab nationalist are out here showing their racist arses
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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Baseera conducts survey of Egyptian opinions on Netflix’s ‘Queen Cleopatra’ Independent Egypt Independent May 15, 2023 .
Regarding the nomination of an actress of African origin to portray Queen Cleopatra, 24 percent believe that the choice is a falsification of history
31 percent believe that the series makers have the right to present a different vision,
and 45 percent said that they could not decide.
The percentage of those who believe the series falsifies history is 18 percent among those with less than average education, rising sharply to 43 percent among those with a university education.
This stands in contrast to the percentage of those who answered that they cannot determine, which decreases from 57 percent among those with less than average education to 25 percent among those with a university education or higher degrees.
The percentage of those who believe that the makers of the series have the right to present a different vision was 36 percent among youth in the 18-29 age group, compared to about 26 percent among those who have reached 50 years old or above.
Among subscribers of Netflix, the percentage of those who see this choice as falsifying history is 40 percent, compared to 43 percent who believe that the creators of the series have the right to present a different vision.
Seventeen percent answered that they cannot decide.
The survey was conducted using landline and mobile phones on a potential sample of 1,560 citizens in the age group of 18 years old and above, covering all governorates of Egypt.
The interviews took place from May 1-4. The response rate was about 42 percent and the margin of error in the results is less than three percent.
The survey was conducted with self-financing from the Baseera Center.
____________________________
However I don't see the poll on the Baseera Center site:
The Egyptian Center for Public Opinion Research (Baseera)
Egyptian archaeologist Zahi Hawass said that during one of his lectures in Los Angeles he was protested by people objecting to his refusal to consider Cleopatra being black. They carried banners with slogans against him, he said, adding that they had fallen for false information.
During a phone interview with “Hadith al-Qahira” (Cairo Talk) talk show on the “al-Qahira wal Nas” (Cairo and the People) channel, Hawass stressed “We are not against blacks, and if the same situation happened with the continent of Asia, I would object to them.”
He emphasized that Cleopatra was burgundy in color, and not dark-skinned, and this a fallacy bought into by African Americans. “The paintings on the walls of temples confirm that the kings are not black,” he explained.
“African-Americans have entered a fallacy, they are a minority and raise these lies in order for the world to say that the Egyptian civilization is a black civilization, but our film answered them strongly.”
Hawass added that ancient Egypt’s history is strongly established and these historical lies will have no impact on it.
posted
^^ I saw a posting about that 6 days ago but see no video. How could there be no video on that?
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Egyptian archaeologist Zahi Hawass said that during one of his lectures in Los Angeles he was protested by people objecting to his refusal to consider Cleopatra being black. They carried banners with slogans against him, he said, adding that they had fallen for false information.
During a phone interview with “Hadith al-Qahira” (Cairo Talk) talk show on the “al-Qahira wal Nas” (Cairo and the People) channel, Hawass stressed “We are not against blacks, and if the same situation happened with the continent of Asia, I would object to them.”
He emphasized that Cleopatra was burgundy in color, and not dark-skinned, and this a fallacy bought into by African Americans. “The paintings on the walls of temples confirm that the kings are not black,” he explained.
“African-Americans have entered a fallacy, they are a minority and raise these lies in order for the world to say that the Egyptian civilization is a black civilization, but our film answered them strongly.”
Hawass added that ancient Egypt’s history is strongly established and these historical lies will have no impact on it.
Because it likely never happened at least nowhere near the scale as those protests of the King Tut exhibition where they displayed that reconstruction of a white king tut. And I wouldn't put it past them to try and play up this "debate" as some kind of proxy to pigeonhole all discussions of black ancient Nile Valley origins into a debate over cleopatra. Because that is something they know they have better chances winning than one on the actual ancient Nile Valley indigenous culture and people.
People in the Egyptology "establishment" know full well they cannot win a direct debate on facts from the Nile Valley. That is why it is almost like both sides, Netflix and Egyptology, purposely promoted this series as a giant strawman argument for a black Egypt. Again Cleopatra was not "Egyptian" ethnically, she was Greek and most of her lineage was Greek aside from maybe her mother or grandmother, but that doesn't make them dark skinned blacks either. So it is an attempt to use this series to "represent" the arguments of Afrocentrics, of which none were present on the program. No African scholars put forward any support for a black Cleopatra in this series, as opposed to various white scholars. Yet he isn't attacking them. He is attacking unnamed anonymous "Afrocentrics" when Jada Pickett Smith is no African scholar and definitely not Afrocentic and neither is the actress playing Cleopatra.
But it is this kind of behavior that reflects the same kind of mentality seen online where trolls will pick the most absurd claims they can find to use as the basis for their "non black" ancient Nile Valley and to discredit African scholarship. And this kind of behavior is fully supported by the establishment, who will never ever publicly come out and defend themselves against many of the points made by white scholars but also various African scholars and others online. Ironically enough these same scholars hide behind "documentaries" produced by western television channels showing all white or eurasian ancient Nile Valley Africans, with the same scripted talking points that have been rehashed and rehearsed for over 100 years. They will never have an open discussion in a public forum where facts and evidence can be presented and addressed directly. Because they know it is all a house of cards and a carefully crafted facade of deliberate falsehoods.
And again, these Hollywood movie studios love Cleopatra because it is a romantic image of the "roots" of Western civilization as a colonial society. But that romantic image totally downplays the fact that the Greeks admired the ancient Nile and acknowledged the Nile as the origin of much of their culture.
Notice that this video produced by a notorious fraud Curtis Ryan Woodide, is supported by Zahi Hawass and other "establishment" Egyptologists. And in it they claim that ancient Egypt was "multiracial" and "multicultural" which not ironically is the same thing the producers of the Netflix documentary also said.
This same Curtis Ryan Woodside is also supported by Odyssey - Ancient History Documentaries on Youtube. One famous example of Curtis Ryan Woodside and his "white washing" of ancient pharaohs fully supported and promoted by the establishment: https://youtu.be/URwdcKBVWEE?t=1497
So all of these people are actually coming from the same place even though they appear to be against each other because neither one wants to address the facts of ancient Nile Valley origins as black African. To me this just looks like to frauds or con men trying to defend their respective hustles by pretending to fight when they both are promoting falsehoods. On one side you got fake white liberals (with some confused black wanna be liberals) trying to control black images and identity in the media including fake black history while on the other you got Egyptology and its historical lies and falsehoods about a non black ancient Nile Valley. It is both hilarious and sad at the same time.
Various references on the Nile Valley influence on Greek art and culture and why they admired and preserved it under the Ptolemies.
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Talking about John Henrik Clarke: Here is an interesting, and intense discussion from 1996:
quote: Legendary discussion between Dr. John Henrik Clarke, Dr. Martin Gardiner Bernal (Black Athena), Professor Mary Lefkowitz (Not Out Of Africa) and Guy MacLean Rogers (Black Athena Revisited), moderated by Utrice Leid, They debate the Origins and Foundations of Western Civilization. Does Africa, Asia or Ancient Greece supply the foundation of the world we live in today?
One can think though that the leader of the debate Utrice Leid, was not totally neutral, she sometimes seemed a bit hostile against Mary Lefkowitz and Rogers. But she did not so much criticize Bernal or Clarke. Maybe it would have been better with a more neutral moderator.
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