posted                      

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
I haven't studied this topic. Did you notice this yourself, this apparent similarity?
or has someone already remarked on this?

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Nope, I noticed it myself.. did you read the article?


Kurdish Deq tatoos



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It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions

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posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:



https://digitalrepository.unm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1039&context=law_studentscholarship


It seems they moved into the atlas and exploited the indigenous Haratians..

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posted                      

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
The Ait Atta (Tamazight: ⴰⵢⵜ ⵄⵟⵟⴰ) are a large Berber tribal confederation of South eastern Morocco, estimated to number about 130,000 as of 1960. They are divided into "five fifths" (khams khmas), all said to descend from the forty sons of their common ancestor Dadda Atta: these "fifths" are the Ait Ouallal, Ait Ouahlim, Ait Isfoul, Ait Yazza and Ait Ounbgi. They speak Central Atlas Tamazight. ("Aït" has the meaning of "people of" in the Tamazight language).







Described as Berber but are they?


Forefather
In Arabic, 'Aṭā (عطا) is a name meaning "Gift". It also appears in Persian (عطا). In Turkish, Ata is a masculine given name meaning "Forefather".


lntertribal Conflicts and Customary Law Regimes in North Africa: A
Comparison of Haratine and Ait 'Atta Indigenous Legal Systems


https://digitalrepository.unm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1039&context=law_studentscholarship


It seems they moved into the atlas and exploited the indigenous Haratians..


I can't find any genetic data on the Ait Atta

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Here is the answer to your questions.


Ghat, the city of heritage and beauty

https://www.libyaobserver.ly/culture/ghat-city-heritage-and-beauty

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"The strong religious reaction in the Maghrib to Christian colonial intrusion enabled the Saʿdī dynasty of sharifs to capture power in Morocco in 1549 and paved the way for Ottoman rule to be established later in the rest of the Maghrib."
[...]
"The Saʿdīs consolidated their rule in Morocco thereafter and, by later defending the territory against Ottoman expansion from Algeria, gave it a national identity distinct from the rest of the Maghrib."
[…]
"With this force at his command, al-Manṣūr imposed his will on the whole country, besides defending it against the Ottoman Empire and, in 1591, conquering the West African state of Songhai (present-day Mali). However, conflict for power after his death divided the country into several principalities that lasted until they were reunited through another sharifian family, that of the ʿAlawites."
[…]
"Algeria was the first country of the Maghrib to be ruled by the Ottoman Empire. Administered at first by governors sent from Istanbul, the Ottoman regency of Algiers was transformed into a sort of military republic when the troops stationed there rebelled against the Ottoman governor in 1689 and installed one of their officers as ruler, giving him the title of dey (maternal uncle)."

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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The tribe does not appear to have played any significant role in the early Muslim conquests, and for the most part remained in the Nejd. Only in the early 8th century did some of the Hilal (and the Banu Sulaym) move to Egypt. Many followed, so that the two groups became numerous in Egypt . During the Abbasid Caliphate, the Hilal were known for their unruliness

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The Banu Hilal ( Arabic : or Hilalians


were a confederation of Arab Bedouin tribes originating in the Hejaz of western Arabia , who emigrated to Upper Egypt in the 11th century .In the same century, they were sent by the Fatimid Caliphate to fight the Berber dynasty of the Zirids for abandoning Shiism . . Other authors suggest that the Banu Hilal left the Upper Nile grasslands due to the environmental degradation that accompanied the medieval warm period .




The Banu Hilal quickly defeated the Zirids and significantly weakened their neighboring Hamadids . Its establishment in the Maghreb was decisive in the linguistic, cultural and ethnic Arabization of the region and in the expansion of nomadism in areas that until then had been essentially agricultural. Ibn Khaldun reports that the lands devastated by the Hilalian invaders became barren deserts





[QUOTE]The Ouled Naïl people claims ancient Arab descent from tribes that arrived to the area about a thousand years ago. Some traditions trace the ancestry to the Banu Hilal of Hejaz who came to the highlands through El Oued, Ghardaia, while others claim that they are direct descendants of Idris I.




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It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions

Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

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To the Editor:

In a recent publication, Bosch et al. (2001) reported on Y-chromosome variation in populations from northwestern (NW) Africa and the Iberian peninsula. They observed a high degree of genetic homogeneity among the NW African Y chromosomes of Moroccan Arabs, Moroccan Berbers, and Saharawis, leading the authors to hypothesize that “the Arabization and Islamization of NW Africa, starting during the 7th century ad, … [were] cultural phenomena without extensive genetic replacement” (p. 1023). H71 (Eu10) was found to be the second-most-frequent haplogroup in that area. Following the hypothesis of Semino et al. (2000), the authors suggested that this haplogroup had spread out from the Middle East with the Neolithic wave of advance. Our recent findings (Nebel et al. 2000, 2001), however, suggest that the majority of Eu10 chromosomes in NW Africa are due to recent gene flow caused by the migration of Arabian tribes in the first millennium of the Common Era (ce).

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The highest frequency of Eu10 (30%–62.5%) has been observed so far in various Moslem Arab populations in the Middle East (Semino et al. 2000; Nebel et al. 2001). The most frequent Eu10 microsatellite haplotype in NW Africans is identical to a modal haplotype (DYS19-14, DYS388-17, DYS390-23, DYS391-11, DYS392-11, DYS393-12) of Moslem Arabs who live in a small area in the north of Israel, the Galilee (Nebel et al. 2000). This haplotype, which is present in the Galilee at 18.5%, was termed the modal haplotype of the Galilee (MH Galilee) (Nebel et al. 2000). Notably, it is absent from two distinct non-Arab Middle Eastern populations, Jews and Muslim Kurds, both of whom have significant Eu10 frequencies—18% and 12%, respectively (Nebel et al. 2001). Interestingly, this modal haplotype is also the most frequent haplotype (11 [∼41%] of 27 individuals) in the population from the town of Sena, in Yemen (Thomas et al. 2000). Its single-step neighbor is the most common haplotype of the Yemeni Hadramaut sample (5 [∼10%] of 49 chromosomes; Thomas et al. 2000). The presence of this particular modal haplotype at a significant frequency in three separate geographic locales (NW Africa, the Southern Levant, and Yemen) makes independent genetic-drift events unlikely.

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Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Antalas:
ait atta are a moroccan tribe not algerian (ottomans never ruled over morocco) and people with ottoman ancestors in NW africa are recognizable by their family names and in general come from urban areas not really from a desertic mountainous place like the jbel sagho.

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In 1554 an Ottoman army managed to conquer Fez and install Abu Hassun on the throne as an Ottoman vassal, which lasted around 9 months, the Wattasids had previously declared themselves as vassals of the Ottomans by formally recognising the authority of the Ottoman sultan in 1545, however they were defeated and lost Fez to the Saadians in 1549. In 1576 an Ottoman army of no more than 10,000 men commanded by Abd al-Malik and Ramazan Pasha, defeated a Saadi force of 30,000 men, conquered Fez, took Marrakech and installed Abd al-Malik on the throne of Morocco as an Ottoman vassal. From 1792–1795 the Ottomans of Algiers had possession of the Moroccan Rif and Oujda, which they abandoned after 3 years in 1795 and then was recaptured by the Moroccans. In eastern Morocco, specifically in Oujda, the Regency of Algiers reigned there longer than 100 years.

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Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey:

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:
ait atta are a moroccan tribe not algerian (ottomans never ruled over morocco) and people with ottoman ancestors in NW africa are recognizable by their family names and in general come from urban areas not really from a desertic mountainous place like the jbel sagho.

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In 1554 an Ottoman army managed to conquer Fez and install Abu Hassun on the throne as an Ottoman vassal, which lasted around 9 months, the Wattasids had previously declared themselves as vassals of the Ottomans by formally recognising the authority of the Ottoman sultan in 1545, however they were defeated and lost Fez to the Saadians in 1549. In 1576 an Ottoman army of no more than 10,000 men commanded by Abd al-Malik and Ramazan Pasha, defeated a Saadi force of 30,000 men, conquered Fez, took Marrakech and installed Abd al-Malik on the throne of Morocco as an Ottoman vassal. From 1792–1795 the Ottomans of Algiers had possession of the Moroccan Rif and Oujda, which they abandoned after 3 years in 1795 and then was recaptured by the Moroccans. In eastern Morocco, specifically in Oujda, the Regency of Algiers reigned there longer than 100 years.

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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the term “Arab,” as well as the presence of Arabs in the Syrian desert and the Fertile Crescent, is first seen in the Assyrian sources from the 9th century BCE(Eph’al1984). Originally referring to nomads of central and northern Arabia, the term “Arabs” later came to include the sedentary population of the south, which had its own language and culture. The term thus covers two different stocks that became linguistically and culturally unified yet retained consciousness of their discrete origins(Grohmann et al. 1960; Rentz 1960; Caskel 1966, pp.19–47; Goldziher 1967, pp. 45–97, 164–190;

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Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey:
Alright, 2 Groups of Arabs...

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the term “Arab,” as well as the presence of Arabs in the Syrian desert and the Fertile Crescent, is first seen in the Assyrian sources from the 9th century BCE(Eph’al1984). Originally referring to nomads of central and northern Arabia, the term “Arabs” later came to include the sedentary population of the south, which had its own language and culture. The term thus covers two different stocks that became linguistically and culturally unified yet retained consciousness of their discrete origins(Grohmann et al. 1960; Rentz 1960; Caskel 1966, pp.19–47; Goldziher 1967, pp. 45–97, 164–190;

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey:
Alright, 2 Groups of Arabs...

quote:

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the term “Arab,” as well as the presence of Arabs in the Syrian desert and the Fertile Crescent, is first seen in the Assyrian sources from the 9th century BCE(Eph’al1984). Originally referring to nomads of central and northern Arabia, the term “Arabs” later came to include the sedentary population of the south, which had its own language and culture. The term thus covers two different stocks that became linguistically and culturally unified yet retained consciousness of their discrete origins(Grohmann et al. 1960; Rentz 1960; Caskel 1966, pp.19–47; Goldziher 1967, pp. 45–97, 164–190;

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I already made a thread about arab ancestry in NW Africa here

The only true arabs or north africans of predominantely arab ancestry are found in southern tunisia and Eastern libya

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Abu Zayd al-Hilali led between 150,000 and 300,000 Arabs into the Maghreb, who assimilated and intermarried with the indigenous peoples . The Fatimids used the tribe, which began their journey as allies and vassals, to punish the particularly difficult to control Zirids after the conquest of Egypt and the founding of Cairo. As the dynasty became increasingly independent and abandoned Shia Islam, they quickly defeated the Zirids and deeply weakened the neighboring Hammadid dynasty and the Zenata. Their influx was a major factor in the linguistic, cultural Arabization of the Maghreb and in the spread of nomadism in areas where agriculture had previously been dominant.[6] Ibn Khaldun noted that the lands ravaged by Banu Hilal invaders had become completely arid desert.[7]

The Banu Hilal later came under the rule of various subsequent Berber dynasties, including the Almohad Caliphate, Hafsid dynasty, Zayyanid dynasty and Marinid dynasty. Finding their continued presence intolerable, the Almohad Caliphate defeated the Banu Hilal in the Battle of Setif and forced many of them to leave Tunisia and settle in Morocco. Upon the arrival of the Turks, the Banu Hilal rose against the Ottoman Empire in the Aurès region and south Algeria.

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These documented historical events, together with the finding of a particular Eu10 haplotype in Yemenis, Pal-estinians, and NW Africans, are suggestive of a recentc ommon origin of these chromosomes. Remarkably, theonly non-Arabs in whom this haplotype has been ob-served to date are the Berbers (Bosch et al. 2001). It appears that the Eu10 chromosome pool in NW Africais derived not only from early Neolithic dispersions but also from recent expansions from the Arabian peninsula .

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Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey:

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey:
Alright, 2 Groups of Arabs...

quote:

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the term “Arab,” as well as the presence of Arabs in the Syrian desert and the Fertile Crescent, is first seen in the Assyrian sources from the 9th century BCE(Eph’al1984). Originally referring to nomads of central and northern Arabia, the term “Arabs” later came to include the sedentary population of the south, which had its own language and culture. The term thus covers two different stocks that became linguistically and culturally unified yet retained consciousness of their discrete origins(Grohmann et al. 1960; Rentz 1960; Caskel 1966, pp.19–47; Goldziher 1967, pp. 45–97, 164–190;

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I already made a thread about arab ancestry in NW Africa here

The only true arabs or north africans of predominantely arab ancestry are found in southern tunisia and Eastern libya

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Abu Zayd al-Hilali led between 150,000 and 300,000 Arabs into the Maghreb, who assimilated and intermarried with the indigenous peoples . The Fatimids used the tribe, which began their journey as allies and vassals, to punish the particularly difficult to control Zirids after the conquest of Egypt and the founding of Cairo. As the dynasty became increasingly independent and abandoned Shia Islam, they quickly defeated the Zirids and deeply weakened the neighboring Hammadid dynasty and the Zenata. Their influx was a major factor in the linguistic, cultural Arabization of the Maghreb and in the spread of nomadism in areas where agriculture had previously been dominant.[6] Ibn Khaldun noted that the lands ravaged by Banu Hilal invaders had become completely arid desert.[7]

The Banu Hilal later came under the rule of various subsequent Berber dynasties, including the Almohad Caliphate, Hafsid dynasty, Zayyanid dynasty and Marinid dynasty. Finding their continued presence intolerable, the Almohad Caliphate defeated the Banu Hilal in the Battle of Setif and forced many of them to leave Tunisia and settle in Morocco. Upon the arrival of the Turks, the Banu Hilal rose against the Ottoman Empire in the Aurès region and south Algeria.

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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Mass Arab enslavement of Black Africans began in the seventh century, soon after the founding of Islam and the beginning of Arab-Islamic civilisation. It lasted at least until the early part of the twentieth century. Roughly 4,820,000 Black Africans were taken into slavery in North Africa between 650 and 1600 AD alone (Harich et al. 2010). Approximately 14 million Blacks were wrenched from their homeland s and forced into slavery in the Muslim World as a whole from the seventh to twentieth century (Harich et al. 2010).

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https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13629387.2019.1670645

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Imazighen

Map of the languages ​​of Morocco . The two large groups can be distinguished: Berbers (in orange) and Arabs (in gray).
The imazighen, misnamed Berbers (from "barbarians"), have their origin in the ancient Libyan peoples of North Africa , from the Canary Islands to the oasis of Siwa ( Isiwan in tamaziɣt ), in Egypt .

The first mention of the Libyan people was by the Greek historian Herodotus in the 5th century BC and he describes them as a multicultural group, with nomadic and sedentary subgroups. The Libyan language and culture seemed to create a certain unity between these peoples, but we can identify two subgroups in the ancient Libyan populations:

A first subgroup rather poorly identified and located by the ancient authors, who have different names: Nasamones , nigritos , atlases , troglodytes , [ Note 1 ] bacuatas , babaros , suburbures , musulamis , Gaetulians , [ Note 2 ] garamantes , austures . ..etc.

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Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey:
[QUOTE]Imazighen

Map of the languages ​​of Morocco . The two large groups can be distinguished: Berbers (in orange) and Arabs (in gray).
The imazighen, misnamed Berbers (from "barbarians"), have their origin in the ancient Libyan peoples of North Africa , from the Canary Islands to the oasis of Siwa ( Isiwan in tamaziɣt ), in Egypt .

The first mention of the Libyan people was by the Greek historian Herodotus in the 5th century BC and he describes them as a multicultural group, with nomadic and sedentary subgroups. The Libyan language and culture seemed to create a certain unity between these peoples, but we can identify two subgroups in the ancient Libyan populations:

A first subgroup rather poorly identified and located by the ancient authors, who have different names: Nasamones , nigritos , atlases , troglodytes , [ Note 1 ] bacuatas , babaros , suburbures , musulamis , Gaetulians , [ Note 2 ] garamantes , austures . ..etc.

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A second set that includes the Moors and Numidians , the latter divided into Masilio and Masilio ./QUOTE]

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
@Antalas is there any significance in your opinion that certain Kurdish in Turkey and Chaouia people of the Aures in Algeria all have facial and hand tattoos?

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no since traditional tattoos are found almost everywhere and this tradition among berbers is old going back at least to the bronze age

chinese woman with traditional tattoos :



indian :




and you can find such practice in many other cultures throughout the world.

Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:
ait atta are a moroccan tribe not algerian (ottomans never ruled over morocco) and people with ottoman ancestors in NW africa are recognizable by their family names and in general come from urban areas not really from a desertic mountainous place like the jbel sagho.

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Do you mean to say they carry Turkish surnames as the only recognizable difference?


To my understanding from what I have observed certain facial traits are typical to Maghribians (or the indigenous people of the Maghrib), with old archaic African traits as well.

I remember this woman. She carried these strong typical Maghribian traits.

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:
with old archaic African traits as well. [/QB]

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Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:
with old archaic African traits as well.

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what traits?

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"African traits manifest themselves among various Berber populations in different ways and to different degrees. Among the Rifians and Kabyles it shows itself mostly in broad faces, heavy jaws, and snub noses."

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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This town draws many of its traditions from the Chaouia, an indigenous group that has historically inhabited the Aurés mountain region. Yet, something unique about this region is that Arabs and Chaouia have not only lived together, but also shared their cultural practices.
One such practice is traditional tattooing, found on the faces of elderly women.

While many Chaouia women received tattoos from gypsies coming from Tunisia, some symbols found among the Chaouia tattoos are uncannily similar to those recorded among Arabs in Iraq. And although most women consider their tattoos symbols of beauty and good health, these tattoos may also have another meaning that has been lost over time—they might be telling a story.

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It is also possible that the tattooing tradition originated in a place much farther than the Sahara or Tunisia: It might have come from Iraq. Although facial tattooing practices have been recorded from North Africa all the way into Iran and Afghanistan, some tattoos found particularly among Arabs in Iraq show a strong correlation to tattoos found among the Chaouia in Algeria.

Anthropologist Winifred Smeaton was part of the 1932-1935 Field Museum anthropological expedition to Iraq. A drawing by Smeaton of Iraqi hand tattoos shows a shape made of a line with two curves at each end that is remarkably similar to the Amazigh (Berber) symbol. Amazigh refers to the indigenous peoples of North Africa, including the Chaouia. The similarities in the tattoo shape must be more than coincidence—the only difference is a horizontal line in the middle of the Iraqi tattoo. A scissor-like symbol recorded by Smeaton, was also found on Gaima's cheek.

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Similarly, in the Aurés, tattoos were used for health and healing purposes. Some were applied to the place of pain or injury; others were made to promote fertility and children's health. Both men and women in the Aurés mountain region also believed that tattoos were markers of beauty. One elderly man claimed that in his time men did not care to look at women without tattoos. Others said that a woman without tattoos was like a man.

Smeaton recognized a similar cultural characteristic in Iraq, writing, "The husband of one Albu Muhammad woman stated that his tribeswomen tattoo extensively because the men like it, and refuse to marry a girl who is not tattooed."

Any influence from Iraq may have been brought to Algeria by the Ottomans in the early 1500s. This would have allowed time for variation to develop or for the Iraqi tattoos to influence a tattooing culture that may have already been in place.

In Iraq tattoos are also blue in color, with kohl as a popular coloring agent, and the symbol of the sun is also placed on the cheek

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Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:
with old archaic African traits as well.

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what traits?

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"African traits manifest themselves among various Berber populations in different ways and to different degrees. Among the Rifians and Kabyles it shows itself mostly in broad faces, heavy jaws, and snub noses."

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I get what you are saying, very similar to this young lady





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It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions

Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

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( In my opinion, this type of make up used by SOME berber amazigh women in the high atlas seems to be really specific to some of the Ait Haddidou and other similar tribes)

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As I discuss in this article I wrote back in September 2020 about why it is not accurate to describe ancient Greece and Rome as “white civilizations,” the ancient Greeks generally associated pale skin with femininity and darker skin with masculinity. The reason for this is because Greek women were generally expected to remain indoors and remain pale, while Greek men were generally expected to work outside in the sun and become tanned. In ancient Greek art, women are usually depicted as very pale, while men are usually portrayed as darker-complexioned.

The reason why ancient Greek women sometimes powdered their faces with white lead, then, is because they wanted to make themselves look paler and therefore more feminine.

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ABOVE: Photograph from Wikimedia Commons of a sample of lead carbonate, commonly known as “white lead,” which ancient Greek women often used to make their faces appear paler

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Use of alkanet dye to make the cheeks appear rosier

Another extremely common makeup used in ancient Greece appears to have been ἔγχουσα (énchousa), a kind of red dye extracted from the roots of the plant Alkanna tinctoria, or dyer’s alkanet. Women used this dye to paint their cheeks to make them appear rosier.

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Detail of a Lucanian fresco from a Greek tomb at Paestum in southern Italy dating to sometime around 340 BCE or thereabouts, depicting a deceased woman going to the Underworld, possibly wearing rouge, now on display in the Paestum Archaeological Museum

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quote:

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Use of eyeliner

Eyeliner and other kinds of eye makeup also existed in ancient Greece, but they seem to have been less commonly used and, in the extant sources, they are much more closely associated with prostitutes than other kinds of makeup.

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Euboulos’s mention of mulberry juice as rouge and eye makeup

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of a red mulberry fruit in Libya

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The speech is not mainly focused on makeup, but it does list three kinds of makeup that Greek prostitutes would wear to make themselves appear beautiful in lines 16–18:

“τὰς ὀφρῦς πυρρὰς ἔχει τις; ζωγραφοῦσιν ἀσβόλῳ.
συμβέβηκ᾽ εἶναι μέλαιναν; κατέπλασε ψιμυθίῳ.
λευκόχρως λίαν τίς ἐστιν; παιδέρωτ᾽ ἐντρίβεται.”

This means, in my own translation:

“Does she have fiery eyebrows? They paint them with soot.
Does it happen that she is dark-complexioned? She plasters it in white lead.
Is she exceedingly pale? She rubs herself with holm-oak.”

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quote:

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Sexy unibrows?

Many sources online claim that ancient Greek women considered unibrows ideal and therefore often filled in the space between their eyebrows with charcoal to make it look as though they had a unibrow

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https://www.quora.com/Did-the-ancient-Greeks-wear-makeup-What-did-it-look-like-Did-both-men-and-women-wear-makeup








ANOTHER LINK TO ANCIENT GREECE







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It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions

Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Ish Geber:
with old archaic African traits as well.

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what traits?

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"African traits manifest themselves among various Berber populations in different ways and to different degrees. Among the Rifians and Kabyles it shows itself mostly in broad faces, heavy jaws, and snub noses."

https://www.newsweek.com/scientists-reconstruct-face-ancient-greek-teenager-and-she-looks-just-788789


Like this reconstruction of Greek Girl





Very similar to this young lady



or this

quote:

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"The inhabitants of the Aegean area in the Bronze Age may have been much like many people in the Mediterranean basin today, short and slight of build with dark hair and eyes and sallow complexions. Skeletons show that the population of the Aegean was already mixed by Neolithic times, and various facial types, some with delicate features and pointed noses, others pug-nosed, almost negroid, are depicted in wall paintings from the 16th century BC. But men and women are always represented with black hair, and the presence of fair-haired people is not attested in the Aegean until later Greek times. Some very tall men buried in the Mycenaean shaft graves may be descendants of invaders who entered the mainland at the end of the 3rd millennium. A few skeletons from the single graves that appear on the mainland at the very end of the Bronze Age suggest the presence of new people from the north."
--- Sinclair Hood, The Home of the Heroes: The Aegean Before the Greeks (1967) also found in Encyclopedia Britannica 1990 ed. Macropedia Article, Vol 20: Greek and Roman Civilizations
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Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
Well aren't you going to add Tuareg, Fulani, Wodaabe and Peul to the list?

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alTakruri said....
"I don't see where the study shows relationship by descent
as in origin. It's skewed to emphasize HLA-DRB1. What makes
HLA-DRB1 so revelatory? Table 5 clearly shows that the
HLA-DBR1 alleles shared by Greeks and Arnaiz-Villena's
caucasoid Africans has much higher frequencies in Greeks.
Off-handedly, that seemingly indicates flow from Greeks to
the caucasoid Africans more so than the other way around."

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Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
Have a look:

https://www.gettyimages.com/photos/west-african-tribal-tattoos?assettype=image&phrase=west%20african%20tribal%20tattoos&sort=best&license=rf%2Crm&page=2

Kurdish women are claiming ancient north African continuity?

The Peul also do that blackened lower lip tattoo
like the third photo in the OP
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Moving portraits of the 'dying art' of tribal tattoos captured in West Africa

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3256606/Moving-portraits-dying-art-tribal-tattoos-captured-West-Africa-scars-symbol-beauty-children-cut-rid-evil.html

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Dana Marniche said... "A description by Gillebert d’Hercourt in Etudes Anthropologiques sur Soixante-Seize indigenes de lAlgerie in 1865 said the Kabyle crania that were studied were generally dolichocephalic. In fact the physical anthropological studies done on ancient and modern North Africans show that early North Africans were dolichocephalic like the Tuareg and other dark-skinned berber tribes.

Not surprisingly most modern Berber-speakers who are fair skinned including modern Kabyles are predominantly mesocephalic (middle headed) or even brachycephalic. It is interesting that the dress of these modern Kabyle women resembles that modern women of the Balkans and that palm and blood group types are also like those of European Mediterranean Greeks. Many of these Kabyles also have a strong Turkish influence as judged from the recognizable Turkish Eurasian or even East Asian facial features. Obviously some groups other than a Berber one makes up the main genetic strain in many modern Kabyle-speakers. Culturally the modern fair-skinned Kabyles have been documented as among the most patrifocal people in North Africa whereas the ancient and modern Berbers like the Tuareg were notably matrilineal and matrifocal to the chagrin of early Muslim documenters who considered this among their ‘wicked” customs"

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Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by the lioness,:


Who This? Amazigh, Greek, Bedouin, Kurds ?

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Some Wodaabe & Fulani tattoos are much more similar to Afar tattoos

they aren't tattoos as much as colorized scarifications.






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It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions

Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

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I wonder if she's from Wargla/Ourgla?
Where there still Israels in Tamentit or other Tuat oases at the time the photo was taken?

=-=-=-=-=

BTW
While Villena-Arnaiz' solitary HLA-DRB1 allele is moot regarding genetic affiliation, I did say

quote:

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We know the high frequency of African derived nrY chromosomes
in Greeks and that stands on solid ground for proclaiming partial
African origins of Greeks. There is no doubt about that. What is
in doubt is any usefulness of Fig 2 PC graph as valid support of
that fact.

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Since then whole genome ADMIXTURE affirms a miniscule current Fula exemplified genome present in Mykenaea



Can't really make out the face, but precision keloids, aka raised scars, on the body are as old as West African Monsoon driven Humid Period Tropical North Africa aka The Green Sahara.




Couple of threads discussing similar native female costume from the Baltic to the "south Mediteranean"
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=000181

Searching for that Marniche-Reynolds post that made me question the direction of the styles' movement.
=> Sorry Dana's blond Kabylie stylee girl img in the Caucasian Berbers etc thread http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=004882;p=2#000071 is rescinded.

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I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Tazarah:
"The vast bulk of the Negro Race is to be found in Africa, where it occupies the tropical belt as far north as the Sahara, and spreads up the west coast almost as far as Morocco. In fact, Negro admixture is so evident amongst the Moroccan population itself that the word 'Moor' is often used to suggest Negro influence, as we see in the name 'Blackamoor.'"

"Human History" by Grafton Elliot Smith, page 139 (1934) London : J. cape

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However, the bulk of the trade was in females, as domestic servants, entertainers and/or concubines: two females for every male overall, in contrast to the ratio of two males for every female overall in the Atlantic trade [15]. Some harems could be enormous, reaching even the extravagating number of 14,000 concubines. Young female slaves were instructed in household crafts and were then provided with resources to buy a home and get married."

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Concubines were of varied complexions but mostly black, and a few were of European and Eastern origin. It was a custom for the governors of the provinces to send beautiful young women to the sultan. Dark-skinned women were more numerous because they were usually easily acquired from the local markets as a result of the continuous yearly supply from the trans-Saharan slave trade. The sultan also chose his concubines, sometimes from free women

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Comparing our results with previously reported genome-wide data, we also find evidence for a sex-biased sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africans, suggesting that historical events such as the trans-Saharan slave trade mainly contributed to the mtDNA and autosomal gene pool, whereas the northern African paternal gene pool was mainly shaped by more ancient events.

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https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB24071


That's why in urban centers or the southern oasis it's common to find people who look like this :






Meanwhile the isolated berbers and coastal populations look purer and show no evident ssa traits :







here videos about them :

https://youtu.be/FFz2Bv8BLvY?list=LL
https://youtu.be/BpkcVaoIAHU?t=206
https://youtu.be/A5_ECQco-4k?t=78

You'll often see algerians making fun of moroccans saying we look like mulattoes because we mixed too much with our slaves. When they see me they usually think I'm algerian or tunisian because for them moroccans are in average much darker.

Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Tazarah:
Antalas, the source I referenced makes it clear that the negro influence is what constitutes the "moor" classification. In other words, without the negro influence or quality, the classification of Moor would not be applied.

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey:
Boy...


Some of these groups that are being classified as "amazigh berbers" are Kurdish/Turkish ancestry. As do some of the Ait tribes in the atlas

Some of the other Ait tribes have Greek origins

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no comment

Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:


I wonder if she's from Wargla/Ourgla?
Where there still Israels in Tamentit or other Tuat oases at the time the photo was taken?

=-=-=-=-=

BTW
While Villena-Arnaiz' solitary HLA-DRB1 allele is moot regarding genetic affiliation, I did say

quote:

---

We know the high frequency of African derived nrY chromosomes
in Greeks and that stands on solid ground for proclaiming partial
African origins of Greeks. There is no doubt about that. What is
in doubt is any usefulness of Fig 2 PC graph as valid support of
that fact.

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Since then whole genome ADMIXTURE affirms a miniscule current Fula exemplified genome present in Mykenaea

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Author(s): Aomar Boum
Todgha is a river valley on the southern slopes of the High Atlas Mountains of Morocco. Until the early 1960s, a significant Jewish population lived in three hamlets in this region: Tinghir (the most recently established), Taourirt, and Asfalou. The Jewish communities of Todgha were among the oldest on the southern fringes of the Atlas. The arrival of Jews in the area seems to have been connected to the nearby silver mines of Jebel Saghro. The Todgha mines were known since the end of the eighth and the mid-ninth centuries, and Jews were jewelers and minters of coins in the region.

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Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015  |  IP: Logged |