Topic: Igbo People Recognized as Israelites by Sephardic Jewish Rabbinical Court
Tazarah
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About a month ago, the Obadyah alliance put forth a Beit Din, or "Beth Din" ruling that recognizes the Igbo people as the children of Israel.
This is obviously very groundbreaking news for so-called african americans as well (and other descendants of the transatlantic slave trade), since it is a recorded historical fact that the Igbo people were one of the main groups taken as slaves during the transatlantic trade.
Here is a short video of the president of the organization (a black Sephardic Jew), Dr. Hakham Yehonatan Elazar-DeMota ס״ט, who is a rabbi, talking about the ruling:
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Tazarah
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
All praises!
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I've read articles before about the Igbos being the Jews of Nigeria in books and online.This is similar to the Lemba People of South Africa and related folks in Zambia, Botswana, and Mozambique on History or Learning channels. About twenty eight years ago a group of African Americans in Cairo,Illinois wanted to convert to Judaism so they called a rabbi in St.Louis,County Missouri asking if they could practice Judaism. She went and converted them.A follow up on this conversion story would make an informative documentary.
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History123
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Anyways, the reason GOD didn't regather them back in the land now before Christ's soon Return and the 7 year Tribulation is because they aren't Real Hebrews.
Isaiah 11:11-12 11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria(Iraqi Jews), and from Egypt(Mizrahi), and from Pathros, and from Cush(Beta Israel), and from Elam(Persian Jews), and from Shinar(Baghdadi Jews), and from Hamath(Syrian Hebrews), and from the islands of the sea.(Real Sephardi Hebrews)
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. (Happened. Jews were living Worldwide, from Siberia, Alaska, The Americas, Australia, almost Everywhere until 1948 and on.)
taz the Tazmanian DEVIL.
Spamming the internet with the lies and insane ramblings of your old brain.
Tazarah
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quote:Originally posted by Tehutimes: I've read articles before about the Igbos being the Jews of Nigeria in books and online.This is similar to the Lemba People of South Africa and related folks in Zambia, Botswana, and Mozambique on History or Learning channels. About twenty eight years ago a group of African Americans in Cairo,Illinois wanted to convert to Judaism so they called a rabbi in St.Louis,County Missouri asking if they could practice Judaism. She went and converted them.A follow up on this conversion story would make an informative documentary.
I think I know what you're talking about. But this is talking about a group a sephardic rabbinical court officially recognizing the Igbo people as the descendants of ancient Israelites last month. A lot of haters and trolls are mad about it but the Bible says the truth and knowledge would start to come out during the last days.
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Some Igbo individuals in each of the different Igbo groups were not of Haplogroup E
Some Individuals in each Igbo group, 7%, 6%, 4% respectively are categorized haplogroup BR*(xDE,JR) (see text above for explanation)
this BR* category contains two distinct clusters one African Haplogroup B and the other a Eurasian cluster of groups F,G and I and as stated in the text, some of this DNA is of the same DNA groups found in some African groups in São Tomé, Africans who may have had Portuguese ancestors and have gradually over the centuries become more African due to the much larger population of Africans there. The Christian Portuguese who colonized the island brought in large numbers of African slaves from the coast to work on the plantations, on these same islands including Cape Verde also were Jews who refused to covert in Portugal were sent there including this group of children, separated from their parents and thought to have been raised as "New Christians"
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Tazarah
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@the lioness
I'm going off the fact that a sephardic rabbinical court has declared the Igbo are the descendants of ancient Israelites. They have the information, not me. They've done the research, not me. They're saying this, not me. Perhaps more information is on the way, this is recent news. If you're trying to imply that they just made this up out of nowhere then I don't know what to tell you.
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I'm going off the fact that a sephardic rabbinical court has declared the Igbo are the descendants of ancient Israelites. They have the information, not me. They've done the research, not me. They're saying this, not me. Perhaps more information is on the way, this is recent news. If you're trying to imply that they just made this up out of nowhere then I don't know what to tell you.
what Sephardic rabbinical court? What's the name of it? I looked it up and they are usually associated with a particular location
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Tazarah
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@the lioness
I gave the link to the website, and a video of the president speaking about the ruling. He's a well known Sephardic Jew/Rabbi.
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ARE IGBOS JEWS PART 2 THE DEBATE CONTINUES...THE MEDICINE SHELL
_______________________________
Tazarah maybe you could go on this podcast and talk about your Portuguese theories
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Tazarah
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@the lioness
Are you seriously referencing content from garfield reid? Is that what you do whenever you come across info I post that you don't like? Hilarious! So garfield the atheist has more authority on the topic than the sephardic rabbinical court?
I literally just did a presentation on Dante Fortson's channel a few hours ago exposing a lie that garfield and his crew have been telling about the black portuguese Jews for over a year. They got debunked and changed their position/moved the goal post and then lied about their original claims, receipts are right here:
"THE MAGIC MOVING GOAL POST - PRESENTED BY TAZARAH | URBAN APOLOGISTS ARE NOT CHRISTIANS"
posted
Ok I see you have already debated Garfield. Where is the original full video of that?
Did you watch>
ARE IGBO PEOPLE JEWS? THE IGBO DEBATE W/ TOBE OSIGWE LIVE FROM IGBOLAND
where he's speaking to this man in Nigeria?
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Tazarah
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@the lioness
Technically I did not debate him, it was a freestyle dialogue. But he and his crew have been proven wrong about the black portuguese Jews. First they said they were not actually black and were instead white europeans. Then more evidence was presented, so they changed their position and deny ever making the original claim about the black portuguese Jews not actually being black.
They are a dishonest bunch with no integrity. I don't watch garfield's channel so I don't know or care about his debate with the Igbo person. The fact that the sephardic rabbinical courts ruled they are Israelites is enough for me. If they were white, nobody would be questioning it.
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Taz 1) in you opinion were all Jews in 15th century Portugal were black or just some?
2) and do you take "black" in certain books' context to mean what most people in America today say is "black", people who resemble West Africans and similar other Africans in parts of Central and East Africa or do you take that to mean a dark skinned person who may or be not resemble an African but just had dark skin, that hair and other features are not specified?
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Tazarah
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@the lioness
1. Not all of them. My argument has always been that the black portuguese Jews were black. White jewish people are recorded in history books but when people like garfield and his buddies start saying the black ones were white too, that's just nonsense.
2. Garfield interviewed a well known genetecist (razib khan) the other day and garfield's buddy asked him about the paternal lineage of sephardic Jews. The geneticist responded that it was mostly haplogroups J and E. The vast majority of "african americans" and "west africans" have haplogroup E.
To hear the geneticist say that sephardic lineages are mostly J and E, go to the 53:15 mark of the video:
1. Not all of them. My argument has always been that the black portuguese Jews were black. White jewish people are recorded in history books but when people like garfield and his buddies start saying the black ones were white too, that's just nonsense.
There are people in India, some Arabs in Yemen and various other places with dark skin, some might have straight hair would some of them be considered black by your historical sources?
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah:
2. Garfield interviewed a well known genetecist (razib khan) the other day and garfield's buddy asked him about the paternal lineage of sephardic Jews. The geneticist responded that it was mostly haplogroups J and E. The vast majority of "african americans" and "west africans" have haplogroup E.
To hear the geneticist say that sephardic lineages are mostly J and E, go to the 53:15 mark of the video:
Marranos were Spanish and Portuguese Jews living in the Iberian Peninsula who converted or were forced to convert to Christianity during the Middle Ages, yet continued to practice Judaism in secrecy.
Y-DNA of North African Jews for the male side there
and
Y-DNA of Portuguese Jews for the female side there
and
MtDNA of Sephardi Jews for the female side
They talk about percentages of various haplogroups they belong to and if you click on the reference numbers you can get a link to the scientific articles if you want to verify the sources, to make sure they are listing the information right
So it doesn't mean all people who are in J are Jews, many are also Muslims/Arabs and there are some places in Central Asia (tends toward Muslim)
What this shows is that Jews in Portugal came from different places originally
So in the Ashkenazi chart the bottom there are 5 different studies Hammer, Behar etc if you read across they have varying results but similar
Then there are Jews in Portugal in the chart above Interestingly if these are accurate Ashkenazi Jews have a greater proportion of people in haplogroup E then do the Jews of Portugal If you add up the E in the Portugal study you get 8.7% but the average in the various Ashkenazi studies is 19%
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Tazarah
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@the lioness
I hope you realize that the president of the sephardic organization (Obadyah) that made this ruling about the Igbo in the rabbinical courts is a "black" sephardic Jew, who also happens to be a rabbi. And his Y haplogroup is E1b1a.
I hope you realize that the president of the sephardic organization (Obadyah) that made this ruling about the Igbo in the rabbinical courts is a "black" sephardic Jew, who also happens to be a rabbi. And his Y haplogroup is E1b1a.
Here we have a 2009 study of 57 unrelated self-designated Jewish males from Tra´s-os-Montes in Portugal
The population there at that time was about 200,000
Looking here we see the root M96 it then splits to E1 and E2
then if we follow the E1 branch that splits to E1a and E1b1
then if we follow E1b1 that splits to
E1b1a (V38)
and
E1b1b (215)
Now going to the tree chart from the study above it
There are various E1b1b lineages
and the other E are shown as E* Dr. Hakham Yehonatan Elazar-DeMota is E1b1a you said. Is that his birth name? I don't know Mota is a Portuguese and Spanish name and adding Elazar, a Hebrew name is something he does with a hyphen "Elazar-DeMota" I don't see anybody else has done Among Sephardi Jews, particularly Spanish and Portuguese Jews, hakham is the official title of the local rabbi. Yehonatan is the Hebrew form of Jonathan
Anyway as for this study of Jews in Tra´s-os-Montes it shows zero for E1b1a
The E1b1 is all E1b1b1a there's two b1's there before the "a" otherwise it's a different lineage
at left on that chart is J,NJ and PT
J= Jew NJ = non-Jew PT = general population of Portugal
So of the four E1b1b1 types we see the Jews showing 2 out of the four: E1b1b1b (M81) 5.2% that is the type that berbers in North Africa are known for and there is a history of Jews in North Africa that includes people form the expulsion and prior to it and the percentage of people in this study in Portugal of Non-Jews that carry it is actually higher 10%
Then the second clade E1b1b1a (M78) that shows 3.5% of the Jews there and 6.7% in Non-Jews E-M78, like its parent clade E-V68, is thought to have originated in Northeastern Africa around Egypt and Libya In the PT, the genal population for Portugal, data from a different study 4.1%%
Now look at the haplogroup J, two types listed for Jews
J2 24.5% J1 12.3%
total J 36.8%
but for Non-Jews the total is just 3.3% they just found one person who was J1 and not Jewish. In the PT, the genal population for Portugal, data from a different study 10.4%
R1 was total 30.7% for Jews Non-Jews, higher 56.7%
What this article is showing is that in this region of Jews in Portugal they found the Haplogroup E was carried by some Jews but at a lower percentage than in Non Jews The haplogroups that were higher for Jews than Non_jews there was for Haplogroups J and T That haplogroup T was recorded 28.6% in modern Egyptians also (Kujanova 2009)
Anyway all of this is just the male side men inherit about 51% of their DNA from their mother so we don't know what maternal DNA group Rabbi Yehonatan Elazar-DeMota is from. The names of his father and mother's maiden name might be a clue The Sephardic tradition uses the Maternal line to determine Jewish lineage Below is an article about female DNA of Jews on Portugal _________________________________
Echoes from Sepharad: signatures on the maternal gene pool of crypto-Jewish descendants Inês Nogueiro, European Journal of Human Genetics volume 23, pages693–699 (2015)Cite this article
Abstract The majority of genetic studies on Jewish populations have been focused on Ashkenazim, and genetic data from the Sephardic original source, the Iberian Peninsula, are particularly scarce. Regarding the mitochondrial genome, the available information is limited to a single Portuguese village, Belmonte, where just two different lineages (a single one corresponding to 93.3%) (haplogroup HV0b) were found in 30 individuals. Aiming at disclosing the ancestral maternal background of the Portuguese Jewry, we enlarged the sampling to other crypto-Jewish descendants in the Bragança district (NE Portugal). Fifty-seven complete mtDNA genomes were newly sequenced and — in contrast with Belmonte — a high level of diversity was found, with five haplogroups being putatively identified as Sephardic founding lineages.
HV0b (12.3%) N1 (7%) T2b11 T2e and U2e
Therefore — in sharp contrast with Belmonte — these communities have managed to escape the expected inbreeding effects caused by centuries of religious repression and have kept a significant proportion of the Sephardic founder gene pool. This deeper analysis of the surviving Sephardic maternal lineages allowed a much more comprehensive and detailed perspective on the origins and survival of the Sephardic genetic heritage. In line with previously published results on Sephardic paternal lineages, our findings also show a surprising resistance to the erosion of genetic diversity in the maternal lineages.
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Tazarah
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@the lioness
You said all of that... to say what? What else is there to discuss?
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You said all of that... to say what? What else is there to discuss?
as per the above article of 57 Jews none were of E1b1a, Dr. Elazar-DeMota's group
instead they were E1b1b1 clades, total 8.8% (there's an extra b1 there) (5.2% of that 8.8% of the berber branch) However non-Jews there were 20% E1b1b1 clades, a percentage over double that of Jews there
He may or may not have what is considered Sephardic related DNA on his mother's side
My personal view is none of this ancestry matters you are a Jew if follow the laws, commandments and traditions but if somebody mentions genetics then I might look at the details as per who they are and what they are claiming
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Tazarah
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@the lioness
That's just one isolated study you referenced. Interesting how you believe one isolated study can prove or disprove a certain point. And Jew is a bloodline, not a religion.
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That's just one isolated study you referenced. Interesting how you believe one isolated study can prove or disprove a certain point. And Jew is a bloodline, not a religion.
Is it passed by the mother or father or both?
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Nação legal consciousness and its contribution to the seventeenth-century Dutch Republic debate on slavery and the slave trade Yehonatan Elazar-DeMota PhD thesis University of Amsterdam 2021
When dealing with the history of the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade, it is almost impossible to not deal with the skin color of the African slaves. Historians must be very careful in understanding how the terms “black” and “white” are used within their respective contexts. For example, in the sixteenth and seventeenth century, many of the dark-skinned Eurafricans in the Upper Guinea who were not subject to enslavement, were either called “Portuguese” or “white” (Silva Horta and Mark 18). Also, during the same period, membership to the Nação (Jews of Portugal) was not determined by one’s physical appearance, and the appellation of “white” was assigned to wealthy traders, regardless of their skin color (Silva Horta and Mark 54). The issue of skin color only became polemical within the context of the seventeenth and eighteenth-century Dutch Republic theological debates on the “Curse of Ḥam.” Indeed, skin color was not an issue within the communities of the Nação, especially because some plantation owners in the colonies were descendants of a Portuguese father and a manumitted sub-Saharan mother. Interestingly, some European chusos [a term used by the Nação for non-Jews] described members of the Nação as being “black.” This “blackness” was not a physical description, rather a pejorative term ascribed to Jews because of their ethnoreligious identity, thereby assigning them a lower social status within a predominant Christian context (Schorsch 246). Francisco Bethencourt raises the question, “How is it that the same person can be considered black in the United States, colored in the Caribbean or South Africa, and white in Brazil?” (1-2) For the purpose of this thesis which relates to a particular time period, I will use the Spanish terms negro or mulatto to describe how the members of the Nação depicted the physical appearance of African slaves, and “black” for how the Dutchmen described the very same. Furthermore, I have opted to not use the term “racism” within this study because it would be anachronistic to do so. Accordingly, whenever I refer to the skin color of the protagonists in this research, I use “black” or “white” in italics, since the use of these terms denotes a social-construct. In reality, there is no such thing as “blackness” nor “whiteness.” One should be aware that in many early 9 modern sources, Jews are described as black, but not in the way that it is used now in many countries where the Atlantic slave trade affected the local culture. At some point, being black referred to eye and hair color, or even more, an ascribed position of social inferiority.
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Tazarah
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Ancient/classical writers always described Jews as being ethiopians (black africans).
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Ancient/classical writers always described Jews as being ethiopians (black africans).
Beta Israel
you would have to have a quote to comment on that If you are referring to something classical Greek they had very limited knowledge about most of Africa and this would also be far before Sephardic history
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Tazarah: [qb] @the lioness
That's just one isolated study you referenced. Interesting how you believe one isolated study can prove or disprove a certain point. And Jew is a bloodline, not a religion.
Is it passed by the mother or father or both?
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Tazarah
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@the lioness
No, they were not referring to beta israel. Ethiopian in ancient times simply meant any black person from the african continent. Classical writers often referred to Jews as ethiopians because Jews resembled native black africans.
Jews did not magically become white europeans in medieval spain/portugal.
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No, they were not referring to beta israel. Ethiopian in ancient times simply meant any black person from the african continent. Classical writers often referred to Jews as ethiopians because Jews resembled native black africans.
Jews did not magically become white europeans in medieval spain/portugal.
So far you have no quote from an ancient writer calling Jews Ethiopian
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Jew is a bloodline, not a religion.
Is the bloodline passed to the children by the mother or father or both?
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Tazarah
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@the lioness
Are you playing dumb? Many ancient/classical writers and historians wrote about the Jews being "ethiopians".
The Scripture Gazetteer: A Geographical, Historical, and Statistical Account... Volume 1" by William Fleming, page 479 (1837) Edinburgh Printing and Publishing Company
The Torah and Tanakh say that lineage is determined through the father (Numbers 1:18, Ezra 2:59).
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: [QB] @the lioness
That's just one isolated study you referenced.
you have referenced zero studies
Yehonatan Elazar-DeMota said he was E1b1a. In 2021 he received a doctorate in international law from the University of Amsterdam. He wrote a thesis on Portugal and the slave trade. So he became more knowledgeable on the history of The Portuguese Christian and Sephardic Jewish slave traders. He seems to be of Portuguese descent, last name Mota.
Pay attention now As we have seen there's a small percentage of Jews in Portugal who are of haplogroup E but mainly not of that West African clade E1b1a
But who are of that clade???
Igbo 89.3 % (Veeramah 2010)
It is estimated that 14.6% of the enslaved Africans transported via European slave ships across the Atlantic during the transatlantic slave trade were of Igbo origin
Take a look at Yehonatan Elazar-DeMota would he want to be associated with the slave master Portugese??
Wake up Tazarah if he says the Igbo are Israelites that far predates any incursions by Portuguese slave traders including Christian and Sephardic Jewish traders, trader of those Igbos
So do you still want to be Portuguese?
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Are you playing dumb? Many ancient/classical writers and historians wrote about the Jews being "ethiopians".
The Scripture Gazetteer: A Geographical, Historical, and Statistical Account... Volume 1" by William Fleming, page 479 (1837) Edinburgh Printing and Publishing Company
always go the primary sources:
Tacitus, Roman historian and politician author of The Histories The fifth book contains—as a prelude to the account of Titus's suppression of the First Jewish–Roman War—a short ethnographic survey of the ancient Jews, (although entirely inaccurate) and it is an invaluable record of Roman attitudes towards them.
quote:
Tacitus, The Histories, Book V c. 110 CE
"Some say that the Jews were fugitives from the island of Crete, who settled on the nearest coast of Africa about the time when Saturn was driven from his throne by the power of Jupiter. Evidence of this is sought in the name. There is a famous mountain in Crete called Ida; the neighboring tribe, the Idaei, came to be called Judaei by a barbarous lengthening of the national name. Others assert that in the reign of Isis the overflowing population of Egypt, led by Hierosolymus and Judas, discharged itself into the neighboring countries. Many, again, say that they were a race of Ethiopian origin, who in the time of king Cepheus were driven by fear and hatred of their neighbors to seek a new dwelling-place. Others describe them as an Assyrian horde who, not having sufficient territory, took possession of part of Egypt, and founded cities of their own in what is called the Hebrew country, lying on the borders of Syria. Others, again, assign a very distinguished origin to the Jews, alleging that they were the Solymi, a nation celebrated in the poems of Homer, who called the city which they founded Hierosolyma after their own name. Most writers, however, agree in stating that once a disease, which horribly disfigured the body, broke out over Egypt; that king Bocchoris, seeking a remedy, consulted the oracle of Hammon, and was bidden to cleanse his realm, and to convey into some foreign land this race detested by the gods.
Now we see the context, come on Tacitus, get it together, this is all over the place, some say this some say that. This kind of legend would never pass as historical record today
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Jew is a bloodline, not a religion.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Is the bloodline passed to the children by the mother or father or both?
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: The Torah and Tanakh say that lineage is determined through the father (Numbers 1:18, Ezra 2:59).
If that is the case the bloodline of the Sephardics must be a huge ball of confusion since they go by the mother
Second question. A Jewish man has a son. The son decides to become an ashiest and doesn't practice any of the laws or traditions.
So if you are saying he's Jewish by bloodline is there any value in it?
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Tazarah
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@the lioness
I am fully aware of the primary Tacitus source. Tacticus is obviously implying all of the people mentioned were black, including the Jews. Tacitus is not the only writer who wrote this about the Jews being black, according to the source I referenced.
The author I referenced clearly states that according to older writers, Jews were always mistaken as being ethiopians/cushites, which are black africans.
Modern judaism has created it's own traditions and a lot of them have nothing to do with what's in the Bible. There are no scriptures that say the bloodline is traced through the woman.
If an indian stops practicing hinduism, do they magically stop being indian?
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Tazarah
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@the lioness
The geneticist that garfield interviewed also said that haplogroup E was the founding group of the Israelites.
I'm not going to go into genetics with you, you're having a having a hard time admitting and accepting the simple fact that classical historians said the Jews were black. So there's no point. Your goal is not to be truthful.
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Tazarah
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But I will leave this here. The Natufians (ancestors of the Israelites) were haplogroup E (E1b1a/E1b1b). Haplogroup J does not have semitic origins.
AJ's = ashkenazi jews
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: = ashkenazi jews [/b]
[/QB]
In 2016, together with R. Das, P. Wexler and M. Pirooznia, Elhaik advanced the view that the first Ashkenazi populations to speak the Yiddish language came from areas near four villages in Eastern Turkey along the Silk Road whose names derived from the word "Ashkenaz", arguing that Iranian, Greek, Turkish, and Slav populations converted on that travel route before moving to Khazaria, where a small-scale conversion took place.[16][17] The study was dismissed by Sergio DellaPergola as a "falsification", noting it failed to include Jewish groups such as the Italkim and Sephardic Jews, to whom Ashkenazi Jews are closely related genetically. Shaul Stampfer, a professor of Soviet and East European Jewry at the Hebrew University, called Elhaik's research "basically nonsense". Elhaik replied that the DNA of non-Ashkenazic Jews would not affect the origin of DNA hypothesized for the former.[18] Prof. Dovid Katz, founder of Vilnius University's Yiddish Institute criticized the study's linguistic analysis. “The authors have melded accurate but contextually meaningless genetic correlations with laughable linguistic theories that now proliferate, sadly, as a consequence of a much weakened Yiddish academic environment internationally ... there is not a single word or sound in Yiddish that comes from Iranian or Turkish".[19] In joint study published in 2016 by Genome Biology and Evolution, Pavel Flegontov from Department of Biology and Ecology, Faculty of Science, University of Ostrava, Czech Republic, A. A. Kharkevich Institute of Linguistics, Russian Academy of Sciences, Moscow, Mark G. Thomas from Research Department of Genetics, Evolution and Environment, University College London, UK, Valentina Fedchenko from Saint Petersburg State University, and George Starostin from Russian State University for the Humanities, dismissed both the genetic and linguistic components of Elhaik et al. study arguing that "GPS is a provenancing tool suited to inferring the geographic region where a modern and recently unadmixed genome is most likely to arise, but is hardly suitable for admixed populations and for tracing ancestry up to 1000 years before present, as its authors have previously claimed. Moreover, all methods of historical linguistics concur that Yiddish is a Germanic language, with no reliable evidence for Slavic, Iranian, or Turkic substrata." The authors concluded:
"In our view, Das and co-authors have attempted to fit together a marginal and unsupported interpretation of the linguistic data with a genetic provenancing approach, GPS, that is at best only suited to inferring the most likely geographic location of modern and relatively unadmixed genomes, and tells nothing of population history and origin."
The authors, in a non peer-reviewed response, defended the methodological adequacy of their approach.[21] In 2016 Elhaik having reviewed the literature searching for a ‘Jüdische Typus’ argued that there is no genomic hallmark for Jewishness. While he allows that in the future it is possible that a ‘Jewish’ marker may turn up, so far, in his view, Jewishness turns out to be socially defined (a socionome), determined by non-genetic factors.[22] On 31 October 2016 a corrigendum to the initial GPS paper by Elhaik et al. 2014 was published in Nature Communications. The GPS tool, remained freely available on the lab website of Dr. Tatiana Tatarinova, but as of December 2016 the link is broken. In 2017, the same authors further supported a non-Levantine origin of Ashkenazi Jews claiming that "Overall, the combined results (of linguistics study and GPS tool) are in a strong agreement with the predictions of the Irano-Turko-Slavic hypothesis and rule out an ancient Levantine origin for AJs, which is predominant among modern-day Levantine populations (e.g., Bedouins and Palestinians)."[23] Elhaik's and Das' work was among others, strongly criticized by Marion Aptroot from University of Düsseldorf, who in the study published by Genome Biology and Evolution claimed that "Das et al. create a narrative based on genetic, philological and historical research and state that the findings of the three disciplines support each other...Incomplete and unreliable data from times when people were not counted regardless of sex, age, religion or financial or social status on the one hand, and the dearth of linguistic evidence predating the 15th century on the other, leave much room for conjecture and speculation. Linguistic evidence, however, does not support the theory that Yiddish is a Slavic language, and textual sources belie the thesis that the name Ashkenaz was brought to Eastern Europe directly from a region in the Near East. Although the focus and methods of research may be different in the humanities and the sciences, scholars should try to account for all evidence and observations, regardless of the field of research. Seen from the standpoint of the humanities, certain aspects of the article by Das et al. fall short of established standards".[24]
A 2020 study on remains from Bronze Age southern Levantine (Canaanite) populations found evidence of large scale migration from the Zagros or Caucasus into the southern Levant by the Bronze Age and increasing over time (resulting in a Canaanite population descended from both those migrants and earlier Neolithic Levantine peoples). The results were found to be consistent with several Jewish groups (including Mizrahi, Ashkenazi, and Sephardic Moroccan Jews) and non-Jewish Arabic-speaking Levantine populations (such as Lebanese, Druze, Palestinians, and Syrians) deriving about half or more of their ancestry from populations related to those from the Bronze Age Levant and Chacolithic Zagros. The study modeled the aforementioned groups as having ancestry from both ancient populations.[25][26]Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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The Natufians (ancestors of the Israelites) were haplogroup E (E1b1a/E1b1b). Haplogroup J does not have semitic origins.
The Natufian culture dates 15,000 to 11,500 years ago. It's a complete guess that they are the ancestors of the Israelites
Also the haplogroup of Natufians was E1b1b, that it associated with the Horn and North Africa, not surprising since this is in closer proximity to the Levant They were not E1b1a, you made that up
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
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@the lioness
Did you miss the highlighted part of the study I posted? It says the Natufians were the most likely Judaean progenitors. Making it impossible for J to have anything to do with ancient Israel.
And I meant to say that there was e1b1 in the natufian sample(s) -- e1b1a descends from e1b1. E1b1a is semitic/afro-asiatic.
J has nothing to do with haplogroup E, and a large majority of modern jewish people are haplogroup J. Therefore, the large majority of modern jewish people have nothing to do with ancient Israel. Posts: 2539 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: [QB] @the lioness
Did you miss the highlighted part of the study I posted? It says the Natufians were the most likely Judaean progenitors. Making it impossible for J to have anything to do with ancient Israel.
And I meant to say that there was e1b1 in the natufian sample(s) -- e1b1a descends from e1b1. E1b1a is semitic/afro-asiatic.
There was once only E1b1 later there was mutation and it divides into two types E1b1a and E1b1b
Natufians were E1b1b
but not all people who are E1b1b are Natufian Semitic is language Semitic originated in the Levant circa 3800 BC
Natufians end 9,500 BC
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah:
J has nothing to do with haplogroup E, and a large majority of modern jewish people are haplogroup J. Therefore, the large majority of modern jewish people have nothing to do with ancient Israel.
And Jew is a bloodline, not a religion.
The Israelites could have been J or E. That is unknown and they are not necessarily the same people found at the Natufian site
But what if they were of haplogroup E. The Israelites would be only one tiny fraction of all the people who carry haplogroup E And what does that bloodline get you? A whole history of oppression and expulsion?
Christians and Muslims to a large extent don't care about bloodline
Bloodline is the type of thing old kings and Pharaohs promoted to keep power in their families.
Bloodline is a stupid concept It does absolutely nothing for you and is only used as a tool to manipulate. Intelligent people don't care about bloodline. You are either great or not great, who your ancestors were does not change who you are Bloodline is a tool for power, it is not a righteous thing
No God would be stupid enough to create all of humanity and then only love a tiny fraction of it based on them breeding. How stupid !
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Seems many people here in the west goes on and on about Igbos eventual Jewish heritage, but one do not hear so much about real old Igbo religions and spirituality.
It seems many forget that it is only a fraction of the Igbo people who are Jews. Many are Christians and some have retained their traditional religions.
Seems ancient traditional religions are forgotten in all the expressions of joy over the fact that some Igbos have been accepted as "Israelites".
As if Jews around the world would care about Christian Igbos or care about Igbos who venerate the about 100 traditional Igbo Gods and many spirits of different kinds. What do Jews around the world care about traditional Igbo art, dance, masks and music?
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2687 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
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@the lioness
You're wrong. Razib khan (the geneticist garfield interviewed) clearly said E would have been found in high frequencies in ancient Israelites. He also said J is not semitic or afro asiatic. I already gave you the timestamp and the video. Plenty of othet studies say J is not semitic and that modern jewish people have non-levantine origins.
I don't care much for DNA but it's clear that even the DNA supports what I'm saying. Ancient/classical writers always described the ancient Jews and Israelites as being "ethiopians" because they resembled black africans.
Feel free to try explaining where all of these black Jews went.
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
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@archeotyperyx
Thanks for your opinion, but that's all it is. An opinion with no facts. The document I linked to the rabbinical court ruling explains how the Igbo people were forced into christianity and other religions as they were conquered, but that they are still bloodline Israelites. Customs and practices do not change your bloodline or genetics.
I will post the link to the rabbinical court ruling again:
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: About a month ago, the Obadyah alliance put forth a Beit Din, or "Beth Din" ruling that recognizes the Igbo people as the children of Israel.
This is obviously very groundbreaking news for so-called african americans as well (and other descendants of the transatlantic slave trade), since it is a recorded historical fact that the Igbo people were one of the main groups taken as slaves during the transatlantic trade.
Igbo People Recognized as Israelites by Sephardic Jewish Rabbinical Court
About a month ago, the Obadyah alliance put forth a Beit Din, or "Beth Din" ruling that recognizes the Igbo people as the children of Israel.
Look at the document, there is nothing saying it represents a Sephardic Jewish Rabbinical Court nor does it resemble legal document of nay type
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"the most important Jewish people founding lineages are J and H"
12:26 He also mentions L1b and L32b
When he's talking about Y DNA haplogroup J he is talking the mitochondrial female J which is different from the male J type
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
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@the lioness
We've now reached the point of the discussion where you are becoming more and more dishonest and trying to gaslight.
1. The sephardic organization that ruled the Igbo are Israelites put forth a beth din ruling which stands in all jewish courts.
2. I linked the document.
3. I linked a video of the president of the organization explaining the ruling. You can search his name on the internet and view all of his credentials.
4. You are ignoring and running from the fact that classical and ancient historians recorded the Jews as being "ethiopians", which meant they resembled black africans.
5. The first study I posted says ashkenazi jewish people (largest so-called jewish population in the world) have non-levantine origins and that the most likely progenitors of ancient Judaeans were natifians (haplogroup E.)
6. The geneticist that garfield interviewed also said this, and he also said that haplogroup was not afro-asiatic, while haplogroup E is. He literally said E was the founding haplogroup of ancient Israelites and that they had E in high frequencies. I gave the link to the video and the timestamp.
7. Haplogroup J is not semitic or afro-asiatic in origin, they assimilated into semitic or afro-asiatic culture after migrating.
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