quote:

---

Most Europeans back then, as now, do not consider
Judaism to be the religion of ancient black West
Africans long before the arrival of Christianity
or Islam. African Jews there were in West Africa,
but Judaism as a significant "religion of West Africa?"
Hardly..

To the contrary, almost every credible writing studying
pre-colonial West Africa shows that Judaism was not
significant numerically. See for example the mainstream
history written by an African scholar.

African Religions & Philosophy
By John S. Mbiti

or see

Black Jews in Africa and the Americas by
Tudor Parfit 2013.


========================================================================

Do you have a credible source besides the opinion piece written
by someone in 1714?


The issue is not whether there were African Jews. There were.

But whether they were, QUOTE:

the religion of ancient black West Africans long before the arrival of Christianity or Islam.

^^That claim is shaky.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
According to this historical reference from the year 1714, it was a well known fact amongst Europeans that "Judaism" was the religion of ancient black West Africans long before the arrival of Christianity or Islam.
________

" We shall treat of the Blacks when we come to Guinea, Negroland, and the Cape of Good Hope, where they inhabit. Leo says, there are other Kingdoms on the S. Frontiers of this country inhabited by a rich, industrious, and just Sort of People. Judaism was the Religion of the ancient Africans for a long Time, and succeeded by Christianity; but Mohometanism prevail’d in the 208th year of the Hegyra, when all the Jews, Christians and Professors of the African Religion that could be found, were put to death; yet in Process of Time their intestine Quarrels made them neglect Mohomet’s Law, and revolt from the Caliph of Bagdat, for which they were severely punish’d by the Mohometan Caliphs, who caus’d all their Books to be burnt, on Suspicion that the knowledge of the Arts and Sciences prompted them to contemn Mohomet’s Law...

---

quote:

---

the historian Leo Africanus wrote in 1526:

"In Garura there were some very rich Jews. The intervention of the preacher (Muhammid al-Maghili) of Tlemcen set up the pillage of their goods, and most of them have been killed by the population. This event took place during the same year when the Jews had been expelled from Spain and Sicily by the Catholic King."
Leo Africanus further wrote:

"The king (Askia) is a declared enemy of the Jews. He will not allow any to live in the city. If he hears it said that a Berber merchant frequents them or does business with them, he confiscates his goods."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_of_Bilad_el-Sudan

Jews of Bilad el-Sudan

---

Great information. This also proves that the Jews who Leo spoke about were black, because before even mentioning any of these populations of Jews spoken of by Leo, the author of the source I quoted from begins his thought by clearly stating:

"We shall treat of the Blacks when we come to Guinea, Negroland, and the Cape of Good Hope, where they inhabit. Leo says, there are other Kingdoms on the S. Frontiers of this country inhabited by a rich, industrious, and just Sort of People."
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
According to this historical reference from the year 1714, it was a well known fact amongst Europeans that "Judaism" was the religion of ancient black West Africans long before the arrival of Christianity or Islam. The source also states the fact that some of the black Jews in West Africa at that time period were there as a result of the Inquisition and expulsion of Jews that had taken place during the years prior, while others had been there since the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.
________

"So much for the Whites. We shall treat of the Blacks when we come to Guinea, Negroland, and the Cape of Good Hope, where they inhabit. Leo says, there are other Kingdoms on the S. Frontiers of this country inhabited by a rich, industrious, and just Sort of People. Judaism was the Religion of the ancient Africans for a long Time, and succeeded by Christianity;

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

the historian Leo Africanus wrote in 1526:

"In Garura there were some very rich Jews. The intervention of the preacher (Muhammid al-Maghili) of Tlemcen set up the pillage of their goods, and most of them have been killed by the population. This event took place during the same year when the Jews had been expelled from Spain and Sicily by the Catholic King."
Leo Africanus further wrote:

"The king (Askia) is a declared enemy of the Jews. He will not allow any to live in the city. If he hears it said that a Berber merchant frequents them or does business with them, he confiscates his goods."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_of_Bilad_el-Sudan

Jews of Bilad el-Sudan

---

Great information. This also proves that the Jews who Leo spoke about were black, because before even mentioning any of these populations of Jews spoken of by Leo, the author of the source I quoted from begins his thought by clearly stating:

"We shall treat of the Blacks when we come to Guinea, Negroland, and the Cape of Good Hope, where they inhabit. Leo says, there are other Kingdoms on the S. Frontiers of this country inhabited by a rich, industrious, and just Sort of People."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:


For clarification, let me state that I am not making the claim that "Judaism" was the religion of the location of ancient West Africa (nor do I believe that the reference I posted is making this claim), but of the people who had ultimately ended up there.

Of course there is corroborating evidence to support this. Not only is there evidence that supports the fact that the religion of ancient West Africans was "Judaism", but there is historical evidence literally stating that the Israelites migrated directly into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

" I am not making the claim that "Judaism" was the religion of the location of ancient West Africa".....

"Not only is there evidence that supports the fact that the religion of ancient West Africans was "Judaism", but there is historical evidence"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:


For clarification, let me state that I am not making the claim that "Judaism" was the religion of the location of ancient West Africa (nor do I believe that the reference I posted is making this claim), but of the people who had ultimately ended up there.

Of course there is corroborating evidence to support this. Not only is there evidence that supports the fact that the religion of ancient West Africans was "Judaism", but there is historical evidence literally stating that the Israelites migrated directly into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem.

---

^^
" I am not making the claim that "Judaism" was the religion of the location of ancient West Africa"....."Not only is there evidence that supports the fact that the religion of ancient West Africans was "Judaism", but there is historical evidence"

_____________________________________

make up your mind please

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:


For clarification, let me state that I am not making the claim that "Judaism" was the religion of the location of ancient West Africa (nor do I believe that the reference I posted is making this claim), but of the people who had ultimately ended up there.

Of course there is corroborating evidence to support this. Not only is there evidence that supports the fact that the religion of ancient West Africans was "Judaism", but there is historical evidence literally stating that the Israelites migrated directly into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

" I am not making the claim that "Judaism" was the religion of the location of ancient West Africa".....

"Not only is there evidence that supports the fact that the religion of ancient West Africans was "Judaism", but there is historical evidence"

---

_____________________________________

make up your mind please

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Why don't you stop playing games and quote me entirely instead of copying/pasting select parts of what I said out of context?

Stop acting like a child.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:


For clarification, let me state that I am not making the claim that "Judaism" was the religion of the location of ancient West Africa (nor do I believe that the reference I posted is making this claim), but of the people who had ultimately ended up there.

Of course there is corroborating evidence to support this. Not only is there evidence that supports the fact that the religion of ancient West Africans was "Judaism", but there is historical evidence literally stating that the Israelites migrated directly into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

" I am not making the claim that "Judaism" was the religion of the location of ancient West Africa".....

"Not only is there evidence that supports the fact that the religion of ancient West Africans was "Judaism", but there is historical evidence"

---

_____________________________________

make up your mind please

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Who is the author?

Read the preface... you obviously didn't look too hard for any information regarding the author(s) who contributed to the book because it's literally right there in the preface, not even 2 pages after the one you screenshot and posted in here.

Two entire pages of preface are dedicated to explaining everyone who contributed to the book, what they are known for, their institutional connections, etc.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Who is the author?

Read the preface... you obviously didn't look too hard for any information regarding the author(s) who contributed to the book because it's literally right there in the preface, not even 2 pages after the one you screenshot and posted in here.

Two entire pages of preface are dedicated to explaining everyone who contributed to the book, what they are known for, their institutional connections, etc.

---

So you don't know how the particular author is that wrote that and we are just supposed to accept it as accurate because there is a list of names and it's printed in a book? This is proof you?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Most Europeans back then, as now, do not consider
Judaism to be the religion of ancient black West
Africans long before the arrival of Christianity
or Islam. African Jews there were in West Africa,
but Judaism as a significant "religion of West Africa?"
Hardly..

To the contrary, almost every credible writing studying
pre-colonial West Africa shows that Judaism was not
significant numerically. See for example the mainstream
history written by an African scholar.

African Religions & Philosophy
By John S. Mbiti

or see

Black Jews in Africa and the Americas by
Tudor Parfit 2013.


========================================================================

Do you have a credible source besides the opinion piece written
by someone in 1714?


The issue is not whether there were African Jews. There were.

But whether they were, QUOTE:

the religion of ancient black West Africans long before the arrival of Christianity or Islam.

^^That claim is shaky.

---

Why are you trying to use a source written by a man in the year 2013 to challenge information that was written by others in the year 1714? Are you implying that Parfitt, who was born centuries later, knows more about the people in hindsight than actual authorities who walked and talked with these people centuries ago? The source I posted is what we call a firsthand account.

For clarification, let me state that I am not making the claim that "Judaism" was the religion of the location of ancient West Africa (nor do I believe that the reference I posted is making this claim), but of the people who had ultimately ended up there.

Of course there is corroborating evidence to support this. Not only is there evidence that supports the fact that the religion of ancient West Africans was "Judaism", but there is historical evidence literally stating that the Israelites migrated directly into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem.

"History has recorded the date and cause of the Israelitish immigration into West Africa after the destruction of Jerusalem..."

"Algeria: The Topography and History" by John Reynell Morell, page 335 (1854) Nathaniel Cooke, Milford House, Strand

https://books.google.com/books/about/Algeria.html?id=8y9DAAAAcAAJ

On top of that; Parfitt himself states in his book that according to european tradition, the Jews were always known to be black both metaphorically as well as literally.

"A long European tradition maintained that the Jews, in general, were certainly 'black' metaphorically, in the sense that they were diabolical and evil, as well as black literally."

"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 4 (2013) Harvard University Press

https://books.google.com/books?id=SBtqXClBWTIC

---

For clarification, let me state that I am not making the claim that "Judaism" was the religion of the location of ancient West Africa (nor do I believe that the reference I posted is making this claim), but of the people who had ultimately ended up there.

OK but you said that your reference of 1714- made the claim. Now you are saying it didn't.
Which is it? Both can;t be right at the same time. You seem to have backtracked,
which is OK, and which is why the initial statement seemed shaky.


Are you implying that Parfitt, who was born centuries later, knows more about the people in hindsight than actual authorities who walked and talked with these people centuries ago? The source I posted is what we call a firsthand account.

But you just admitted above that your first hand 1714 account, did not say the things
you claim it is saying. Basically you misrepresented the account.


Of course there is corroborating evidence to support this. Not only is there evidence that supports the fact that the religion of ancient West Africans was "Judaism", but there is historical evidence literally stating that the Israelites migrated directly into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem.

You haven't presented any corroborating evidence at all. Basically
up above you admit that you misrepresented the source you were using
as a supporting reference. Again what credible source shows that
the religion of West Africans was Judaism? So far you have yet to put
anything credible on the table.




^^Finish them you fools, before they head off
to West Africa to hang out with the bleks...."

You then assert a new claim that- QUOTE:

"the Israelites migrated directly into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem.."

OK, but what credible evidence do you have of this? Down below
you cite something from 1854, but even this source downplays the
Jerusalem migrant claim...

Quote-
"History has recorded the date and cause of the Israelitish immigration into West Africa after the destruction of Jerusalem..."

"Algeria: The Topography and History" by John Reynell Morell, page 335 (1854) Nathaniel Cooke, Milford House, Strand
https://books.google.com/books/about/Algeria.html?id=8y9DAAAAcAAJ

The new reference you proffer is from 1854, and it is rather thin. Basically
it refs a "Baron Baude" and the author says that there was this "Israelitish"
migration direct from Jerusalem to West Africa. But you left out
a few lines of the paragraph further down in which the author or whoever
says that the mixture of the Jews with the Berber populations of "Barbary"
would lead more to the conclusion that said movement is from "the East
and Syria." QUOTE: "would lead us to suppose that it forms the foundation of
this immigration from the East and Syria."

So while the dispersion of Jews after the Roman conquest did take place,
it is unclear if the 1854 source is arguing for any direct "Jerusalem migration angle",
when it seems rather to point to migration from Syria and the East, via the
Berbers, as a more plausible scenario. Thus it does not lend support to
any notion of Jews saddling up in Jerusalem to head directly for West Africa,
circa 70 AD.


On top of that; Parfitt himself states in his book that according to european tradition, the Jews were always known to be black both metaphorically as well as literally.

"A long European tradition maintained that the Jews, in general, were certainly 'black' metaphorically, in the sense that they were diabolical and evil, as well as black literally."

"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 4 (2013) Harvard University Press

https://books.google.com/books?id=SBtqXClBWTIC

You are again misrepresenting sources.

Parfitt speaks of Jews as "blacks" METAPHORICALLY, and the discussion is of
some Europeans trying to bash Jews by comparing them to blacks. He then notes
that anti-Jewish critics asserted that Jews were dark-skinned, with others saying
only the Portuguese Jews were dark-skinned. The bottom line is to "diss" the
Jews, and one easy way to do that was to link them to blacks.

So Parfitt in the section you quoted lends little support to you claims as to:

--Judaism being the religion of West African blacks

--The Israelites migrating direct to West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem

Neither of your proffered 3 sources support these claims, whether it be:

--The 1714 source

--The 1854 source

--The 2013 source

None of them work in support of your arguments above.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Most Europeans back then, as now, do not consider
Judaism to be the religion of ancient black West
Africans long before the arrival of Christianity
or Islam. African Jews there were in West Africa,
but Judaism as a significant "religion of West Africa?"
Hardly..

To the contrary, almost every credible writing studying
pre-colonial West Africa shows that Judaism was not
significant numerically. See for example the mainstream
history written by an African scholar.

African Religions & Philosophy
By John S. Mbiti

or see

Black Jews in Africa and the Americas by
Tudor Parfit 2013.


========================================================================

Do you have a credible source besides the opinion piece written
by someone in 1714?


The issue is not whether there were African Jews. There were.

But whether they were, QUOTE:

the religion of ancient black West Africans long before the arrival of Christianity or Islam.

^^That claim is shaky.

---

Why are you trying to use a source written by a man in the year 2013 to challenge information that was written by others in the year 1714? Are you implying that Parfitt, who was born centuries later, knows more about the people in hindsight than actual authorities who walked and talked with these people centuries ago? The source I posted is what we call a firsthand account.

For clarification, let me state that I am not making the claim that "Judaism" was the religion of the location of ancient West Africa (nor do I believe that the reference I posted is making this claim), but of the people who had ultimately ended up there.

Of course there is corroborating evidence to support this. Not only is there evidence that supports the fact that the religion of ancient West Africans was "Judaism", but there is historical evidence literally stating that the Israelites migrated directly into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem.

"History has recorded the date and cause of the Israelitish immigration into West Africa after the destruction of Jerusalem..."

"Algeria: The Topography and History" by John Reynell Morell, page 335 (1854) Nathaniel Cooke, Milford House, Strand

https://books.google.com/books/about/Algeria.html?id=8y9DAAAAcAAJ

On top of that; Parfitt himself states in his book that according to european tradition, the Jews were always known to be black both metaphorically as well as literally.

"A long European tradition maintained that the Jews, in general, were certainly 'black' metaphorically, in the sense that they were diabolical and evil, as well as black literally."

"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 4 (2013) Harvard University Press

https://books.google.com/books?id=SBtqXClBWTIC

---

For clarification, let me state that I am not making the claim that "Judaism" was the religion of the location of ancient West Africa (nor do I believe that the reference I posted is making this claim), but of the people who had ultimately ended up there.

OK but you said that your reference of 1714- made the claim. Now you are saying it didn't.
Which is it? Both can;t be right at the same time. You seem to have backtracked,
which is OK, and which is why the initial statement seemed shaky.


Are you implying that Parfitt, who was born centuries later, knows more about the people in hindsight than actual authorities who walked and talked with these people centuries ago? The source I posted is what we call a firsthand account.

But you just admitted above that your first hand 1714 account, did not say the things
you claim it is saying. Basically you misrepresented the account.


Of course there is corroborating evidence to support this. Not only is there evidence that supports the fact that the religion of ancient West Africans was "Judaism", but there is historical evidence literally stating that the Israelites migrated directly into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem.

You haven't presented any corroborating evidence at all. Basically
up above you admit that you misrepresented the source you were using
as a supporting reference. Again what credible source shows that
the religion of West Africans was Judaism? So far you have yet to put
anything credible on the table.




^^Finish them you fools, before they head off
to West Africa to hang out with the bleks...."

You then assert a new claim that- QUOTE:

"the Israelites migrated directly into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem.."

OK, but what credible evidence do you have of this? Down below
you cite something from 1854, but even this source downplays the
Jerusalem migrant claim...

Quote-
"History has recorded the date and cause of the Israelitish immigration into West Africa after the destruction of Jerusalem..."

"Algeria: The Topography and History" by John Reynell Morell, page 335 (1854) Nathaniel Cooke, Milford House, Strand
https://books.google.com/books/about/Algeria.html?id=8y9DAAAAcAAJ

The new reference you proffer is from 1854, and it is rather thin. Basically
it refs a "Baron Baude" and the author says that there was this "Israelitish"
migration direct from Jerusalem to West Africa. But you left out
a few lines of the paragraph further down in which the author or whoever
says that the mixture of the Jews with the Berber populations of "Barbary"
would lead more to the conclusion that said movement is from "the East
and Syria." QUOTE: "would lead us to suppose that it forms the foundation of
this immigration from the East and Syria."

So while the dispersion of Jews after the Roman conquest did take place,
it is unclear if the 1854 source is arguing for any direct "Jerusalem migration angle",
when it seems rather to point to migration from Syria and the East, via the
Berbers, as a more plausible scenario. Thus it does not lend support to
any notion of Jews saddling up in Jerusalem to head directly for West Africa,
circa 70 AD.


On top of that; Parfitt himself states in his book that according to european tradition, the Jews were always known to be black both metaphorically as well as literally.

"A long European tradition maintained that the Jews, in general, were certainly 'black' metaphorically, in the sense that they were diabolical and evil, as well as black literally."

"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 4 (2013) Harvard University Press

https://books.google.com/books?id=SBtqXClBWTIC

You are again misrepresenting sources.

Parfitt speaks of Jews as "blacks" METAPHORICALLY, and the discussion is of
some Europeans trying to bash Jews by comparing them to blacks. He then notes
that anti-Jewish critics asserted that Jews were dark-skinned, with others saying
only the Portuguese Jews were dark-skinned. The bottom line is to "diss" the
Jews, and one easy way to do that was to link them to blacks.

So Parfitt in the section you quoted lends little support to you claims as to:

--Judaism being the religion of West African blacks

--The Israelites migrating direct to West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem

Neither of your proffered 3 sources support these claims, whether it be:

--The 1714 source

--The 1854 source

--The 2013 source

None of them work in support of your arguments above.

---

1. I never stated that the religion of the LOCATION of ancient West Africa was Judaism, I simply said the people (West AFRICANS), hence the usage of the word West AFRICANS (emphasis on the people), as opposed to west AFRICA (the location) -- nor did I ever insinuate that the source I quoted from made any claims about the religion of the LOCATION of West Africa -- but rather the PEOPLE. I'm not backtracking at all, you just aren't comprehending what's being said.

2. I've posted several sources in this thread that all corroborate every claim I've made about the Jews being black/negro people who either migrated to West Africa from Jerusalem after the fall of Jerusalem (the original source being one of them), as well as sources explaining how the black/negro Jews who were banished from Europe ending up in West Africa (the original source once again being one of those sources.

Please refer to my response to the lioness for these sources, as I prefer to keep my responses as brief and to the point as possible to avoid leaving room for deflection, strawman arguments and red herrings.

3. Parfitt clearly states on page 4 of his book (Black Jews in Africa and the Americas) that according to longstanding European tradition, the Jews were always known to be black both metaphorically AND literally. I already emphasized the literal part once before, did you miss it? Here it is once again:

"A long European tradition maintained that the Jews, in general, were certainly 'black' metaphorically, in the sense that they were diabolical and evil, as well as black literally."

"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 4 (2013) Harvard University Press

https://books.google.com/books?id=SBtqXClBWTIC

^^^ see that? It says they were black both metaphorically AND LITERALLY....

You can't be literally black if you aren't literally black.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
http://iajgscemetery.org/africa/mali/timbuktu

Egyptian Jews trading with tribes in the northern part of Mali since biblical times. In the eighth century CE. Rhadanites (multi-lingual Jewish traders) settled in Timbuktu as a base from which to solidify their trade routes through the desert. In the 14th and 15th centuries, Jews fleeing Spanish persecution joined them. Members of the Kehath (Ka'ti) family founded three villages near Timbuktu -- Kirshamba, Haybomo, and Kongougara. In 1492, King Askia Muhammed threatened execution to Jews who did not convert to Islam. Some Jews fled, some converted, some remained in Mali with centuries of persecution and random massacre. By the 20th century, no practicing Jews remained in Mali. In the 1990s Malian Jewry began a revival. Ismael Diadie Haidara, a historian from Timbuktu, has explored Mali's Jewish past. In 1993 Haidara established Zakhor (the Timbuktu Association for Friendship with the Jewish World) as an informal association of Malian descendants of Jews to teach their children about their Jewish heritage, learn Hebrew and learn their histories. A community of 1000 "Jews" have recently revealed their identity. The Renewal of Jewish Identity in Timbuktu by Karen Primack. For information, contact Ismael Haidara, who divides his time between Timbuktu and Granada, Spain: B. P. 66, Tombouctou, Mali, West Africa, tel. (223) 92-11-78 or e-mail [August 2009]


https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/mali-virtual-jewish-history-tour

In 1860, Rabbi Mordechai Abi Serour emigrated from Morocco with several Jews to trade in Timbuktu. Rabbi Serour had to negotiate with the local authorities to obtain “protected people” status. The newly arrived congregation established a synagogue and Jewish cemetery in the area. By the early 20th century no Jews remained in Mali.

In the mid-1990s, however, thousands of so called ‘Hidden Jews,’ began a Malian Jewish revival in Timbuktu, Mali; many reclaiming their Jewish heritage. In 1993, Ismael Diadie Haidara, a historian from Timbuktu, established an organization called Zakhor (Timbuktu Association for Friendship with the Jewish World). This organization is predominately composed of Malians, descendants of Jews. Over the years, much of the Malian Jewry’s history has been uncovered; it was once concealed to avoid persecution.


Last Rabbi of Timbuktu.
Rabbi Mordechai Aby Serour
circa 1870s - 1880s.
born in southern Morocco in Akka in the present-day region of Souss-Massa

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mardochée_Aby_Serour

At the age of nine, he left his village (in the extreme south of Morocco), alone and without money, to Marrakech (in the center of the country), famous for its Talmudic schools of mellah , where he studied Talmud and Hebrew [ 5 ] , [ 4 ] .

At the age of 13, in 1839, he was sent to Jerusalem to study rabbinical studies . On his journey, the young adolescent was received in the main Jewish communities where he stayed, such as those of Provence , Mogador , Tangier , Gibraltar , Salonika , Constantinople , Smyrna , Jaffa then Jerusalem, . He took three years to reach Palestine and spent four years in a yeshiva before coming out in 1846.with the title of rabbi .

He then served the community of Aleppo in Syria for a year, which allowed him to raise enough money to begin his journey back to the Maghreb, which made him follow with caravanners the trail extending the spice route. and incense , by Egypt , Libya ..., along the desert coasts, in Tripolitania , Tunisia and Algeria. It stops in turn in Tunis , Constantine , Philippeville ( Skikda ), Algiers (from


http://www.hebrewigbo.com/mali-jews.html

The Jews of Mali, sometimes referred to as “Zahkor,” meaning, “Remember,” are descendants from Egyptian and Saharan Jewish traders.

“In the eighth century A.D. the Rhadanites (multi-lingual Jewish traders) settled in Timbuktu and used it as a base from which they could solidify their trade routes through the desert. In the 14th and 15th centuries Jews fleeing Spanish persecution settled in Timbuktu. Members of the Kehath (Ka'ti) family founded three villages that still exist near Timbuktu -- Kirshamba, Haybomo, and Kongougara. In 1492, King Askia Muhammed took power in Timbuktu and threatened Jews who did not convert to Islam with execution. Some Jews fled, some converted, some remained in Mali and faced centuries of persecution and the occasional massacre. By the 20th century there were no practicing Jews in Mali.” - http://www.mindspring.com/~jaypsand/timbuktu2.htm

The “Zahkor” movement in Mali made up of about one thousand people, was founded in Timbuktu in 1993 by the Malian historian Ismael Daidé Haïdara. His followers claim to be the offspring of Saharan Jews.

https://www.shavei.org/timbuktu-mali/

There are approximately 1,000 people with alleged Jewish roots in Timbuktu, Mali. They arrived in the 14th century fleeing persecution in Spain, and migrated south to the Timbuktu area, at that time part of the Songhai Empire. Among them was the Kehath (Ka’ti) family, descended from Ismael Jan Kot Al-yahudi of Scheida, Morocco. Sons of this prominent family founded three villages that still exist near Timbuktu—Kirshamba, Haybomo, and Kongougara.

A key contact for information about the Jewish community in Timbuktu is Richard Gold of the U.S. Agency for International Development. He was posted in Bamako, the capital of Mali, during the 1990s. He is now in the Philippines.

Gold concurs that the community is not interested in converting to Judaism. “I haven’t heard any real desire to convert. Given their absence of even the most basic knowledge of Judaism, I couldn’t see anyone being ready to convert for many years. What is special about the Jews of Timbuktu is that they are taking pride in their Jewish heritage.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
http://iajgscemetery.org/africa/mali/timbuktu

Egyptian Jews trading with tribes in the northern part of Mali since biblical times. In the eighth century CE. Rhadanites (multi-lingual Jewish traders) settled in Timbuktu as a base from which to solidify their trade routes through the desert. In the 14th and 15th centuries, Jews fleeing Spanish persecution joined them. Members of the Kehath (Ka'ti) family founded three villages near Timbuktu -- Kirshamba, Haybomo, and Kongougara. In 1492, King Askia Muhammed threatened execution to Jews who did not convert to Islam. Some Jews fled, some converted, some remained in Mali with centuries of persecution and random massacre. By the 20th century, no practicing Jews remained in Mali. In the 1990s Malian Jewry began a revival. Ismael Diadie Haidara, a historian from Timbuktu, has explored Mali's Jewish past. In 1993 Haidara established Zakhor (the Timbuktu Association for Friendship with the Jewish World) as an informal association of Malian descendants of Jews to teach their children about their Jewish heritage, learn Hebrew and learn their histories. A community of 1000 "Jews" have recently revealed their identity. The Renewal of Jewish Identity in Timbuktu by Karen Primack. For information, contact Ismael Haidara, who divides his time between Timbuktu and Granada, Spain: B. P. 66, Tombouctou, Mali, West Africa, tel. (223) 92-11-78 or e-mail [August 2009]


https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/mali-virtual-jewish-history-tour

In 1860, Rabbi Mordechai Abi Serour emigrated from Morocco with several Jews to trade in Timbuktu. Rabbi Serour had to negotiate with the local authorities to obtain “protected people” status. The newly arrived congregation established a synagogue and Jewish cemetery in the area. By the early 20th century no Jews remained in Mali.

In the mid-1990s, however, thousands of so called ‘Hidden Jews,’ began a Malian Jewish revival in Timbuktu, Mali; many reclaiming their Jewish heritage. In 1993, Ismael Diadie Haidara, a historian from Timbuktu, established an organization called Zakhor (Timbuktu Association for Friendship with the Jewish World). This organization is predominately composed of Malians, descendants of Jews. Over the years, much of the Malian Jewry’s history has been uncovered; it was once concealed to avoid persecution.


Last Rabbi of Timbuktu.
Rabbi Mordechai Aby Serour
circa 1870s - 1880s.
born in southern Morocco in Akka in the present-day region of Souss-Massa

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mardochée_Aby_Serour

At the age of nine, he left his village (in the extreme south of Morocco), alone and without money, to Marrakech (in the center of the country), famous for its Talmudic schools of mellah , where he studied Talmud and Hebrew [ 5 ] , [ 4 ] .

At the age of 13, in 1839, he was sent to Jerusalem to study rabbinical studies . On his journey, the young adolescent was received in the main Jewish communities where he stayed, such as those of Provence , Mogador , Tangier , Gibraltar , Salonika , Constantinople , Smyrna , Jaffa then Jerusalem, . He took three years to reach Palestine and spent four years in a yeshiva before coming out in 1846.with the title of rabbi .

He then served the community of Aleppo in Syria for a year, which allowed him to raise enough money to begin his journey back to the Maghreb, which made him follow with caravanners the trail extending the spice route. and incense , by Egypt , Libya ..., along the desert coasts, in Tripolitania , Tunisia and Algeria. It stops in turn in Tunis , Constantine , Philippeville ( Skikda ), Algiers (from


http://www.hebrewigbo.com/mali-jews.html

The Jews of Mali, sometimes referred to as “Zahkor,” meaning, “Remember,” are descendants from Egyptian and Saharan Jewish traders.

“In the eighth century A.D. the Rhadanites (multi-lingual Jewish traders) settled in Timbuktu and used it as a base from which they could solidify their trade routes through the desert. In the 14th and 15th centuries Jews fleeing Spanish persecution settled in Timbuktu. Members of the Kehath (Ka'ti) family founded three villages that still exist near Timbuktu -- Kirshamba, Haybomo, and Kongougara. In 1492, King Askia Muhammed took power in Timbuktu and threatened Jews who did not convert to Islam with execution. Some Jews fled, some converted, some remained in Mali and faced centuries of persecution and the occasional massacre. By the 20th century there were no practicing Jews in Mali.” - http://www.mindspring.com/~jaypsand/timbuktu2.htm

The “Zahkor” movement in Mali made up of about one thousand people, was founded in Timbuktu in 1993 by the Malian historian Ismael Daidé Haïdara. His followers claim to be the offspring of Saharan Jews.

https://www.shavei.org/timbuktu-mali/

There are approximately 1,000 people with alleged Jewish roots in Timbuktu, Mali. They arrived in the 14th century fleeing persecution in Spain, and migrated south to the Timbuktu area, at that time part of the Songhai Empire. Among them was the Kehath (Ka’ti) family, descended from Ismael Jan Kot Al-yahudi of Scheida, Morocco. Sons of this prominent family founded three villages that still exist near Timbuktu—Kirshamba, Haybomo, and Kongougara.

A key contact for information about the Jewish community in Timbuktu is Richard Gold of the U.S. Agency for International Development. He was posted in Bamako, the capital of Mali, during the 1990s. He is now in the Philippines.

Gold concurs that the community is not interested in converting to Judaism. “I haven’t heard any real desire to convert. Given their absence of even the most basic knowledge of Judaism, I couldn’t see anyone being ready to convert for many years. What is special about the Jews of Timbuktu is that they are taking pride in their Jewish heritage.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
You completely ignored everything I said in my last response to you, and you completely ignored all of the sources I presented to you. Why is that?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:


"History has recorded the date and cause of the Israelitish immigration into West Africa after the destruction of Jerusalem..."

"Algeria: The Topography and History" by John Reynell Morell, page 335 (1854) Nathaniel Cooke, Milford House, Strand

https://books.google.com/books/about/Algeria.html?id=8y9DAAAAcAAJ

---

quote:

---

" Algerie, by Baron Baude, vol. iii,
1843.History has recorded the date and cause of the Israelitish immigration into West Africa, after the destruction of Jerusalem ; but the immemorial establishment of the Scenite Jews, who in the whole extent of Barbary are mixed with the Berber population, would lead us to suppose that it forms the foundation
of this immigration from the East and Syria, which
Sallust has related in these words : * Afterward the
Phoenicians— some for the sake of lessening the pressure
at home, others from motives of ambition and curiosity
— built Adrumetum, Hippo, Leptis, and other cities
on the sea-shore '. Numerous Jewish migrations
occurred during the persecutions of Adrian ; and in the
third century these emigrants formed independent
tribes in the Hedjaz near Medina, and near Mecca ;
and their religion spread in Yemen. If we may
believe the Arab historians, most of the African
Berbers and Arabs professed the Hebrew faith in the
seventh and eight centuries, and the preaching of
Mohametanism made no way amongst them. This
would appear to explain the phenomenon of the Jews
forming till lately (1843) a fourth of the population of
Algiers, and more than four-fifths of that of Oran ".^
II. M. Rozet was much at a loss to know the meaning
of this last singular ceremony, and after some enquiry
was at last informed by a rabbi that as soon as a man
dies the Devil always stations himself at the door of
the house, in order to get possession of the body when
on its way to its last abode. He is appalled, however,
by the number of rabbis, whom he finds walking at
each side of the body, and, afraid to execute his project,

* Algerie, by Baron Baude, vol. iii, 1843.

---

^^ this source needs to be located to see exactly what he says, translation tools can be used if necessary, easy and free

Algerie, by Baron Baude, vol. iii, 1843
look into it
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
One must be careful to distinguish Leo from his
translator Pory, a common enough confusion.
[EDIT: Never knew there was a 'modern' edition with
material by Brown. So look out. The online Brown
edition is only 1 of 3 vols.]

=-=-=

bani Israil were few in W Afr just like everywhere
else in the world. Bypassing oral history, two Sahel
city states are documented. They fell to al Murabitun
hence Mauritania has the most written on them though
sparse Arabic records or notices of them are in English.

Diop mentions a bani Israil settlement in the Savannah.
They were much too late to introduce any civ to W Afr.
They are credited for introducing shea butter fire casting
of wells making them 'watertight'. Hunwick was incredulous
when he uncovered the record forbidding the sale of black
skinned Jews in one Savannah/Open-canopy forest kingdom iirc.
Historically I know little of Guinea belt. I did greet
and drive a Nigerian come to the states to pick up a
Sepher Torah for his tribes Qahal Qadosh.

=-=-=

Completely habitable throughout the last African Humid Period
and receiving colonists fleeing the desertifying Sahra,
West Africa has many indigenous religions.

Srnan Djuka and others have a syncretized African Judaism.
There in Surinam a lect, Djo Tongo, emerged from Hebrew, 'SenegalCongo',
and Indo-European much the same way Yiddish pooled Hebrew,
Slavic, and high German.

The last one I know who spoke it was a cantor at the Spanish and
Portuguese Synagogue in the City of New York, Rev Dr Louis
C Gerstein (A"H).


=-=-=


And I've shown how dynamic the Israelite community
is when I posted the Caribe rabbi of a Filipino
Jewish congregation receiving a donated Sepher
Torah.


Not in W Afr but still raising a cry for DNA sampling
from Wargla in Algeria, once a home to Jews both black
complexioned and non-orthodox.


Tudor's tone was very negative in the 90s
boasting in one book of a mack attempt on
a noblewoman and he expected negative
returns from DNA tests.


Not saying she's recommended but imo of
much higher calibre would be Edith
Bruder who no doubt will lead to
sources I've referenced from the 70s
til today anda whole lot more
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
You completely ignored everything I said in my last response to you, and you completely ignored all of the sources I presented to you. Why is that?

---

please go to the top of your previous post and hit the notepad icon and delete the long quote or mine and just leave your comment it's too repetitive, thanks

zarahan chopped you down to size but you don't seem to get it

if a book says ""the Israelites migrated directly into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem.."
that is not proof. Once a remark is made like that they also have to site evidence that is is true, for instance verifiable artifacts or authentic historic texts

Note in my last post, actual people and specific places named
"West Africa" is much too broad. You need cities or towns with names

then another post several posts before that on
Tuat with details

Come on now, this vague stuff you have is not cutting it
My stuff is weighing your argument better than you are as for Jews in Africa

---

quote:

---

According to this historical reference from the year 1714, it was a well known fact amongst Europeans that "Judaism" was the religion of ancient black West Africans long before the arrival of Christianity or Islam.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

quote:

---

According to this historical reference from the year 1714, it was a well known fact amongst Europeans that "Judaism" was the religion of ancient black West Africans long before the arrival of Christianity or Islam.

---

From my understanding... what was meant was that the West African tribes traditions and practices where Judaic or primitive Hebrewisms like those practiced in the old testament..

not that most West African's where "Jews" i.e. Ashkenazi or Shepardic


I don't think that parallelisms between West African tribes or cognates between Hebrew & Kwa languages should just be written off as coincidence or some sort of diffusion.

---

quote:

---

the Hebrews of antiquity were black/negroid people.

---

I can agree with this...and I would think the Kwa tribes all with names of an iteration of Hebrew/Yoruba/Ibri/Ivri/Ewe/Beni i.e. Banu

are pre 2nd temple Hebrews.. I think imho.. "Jews" Ashekenazi Spehardic are something different 2nd temple talmudic synagogue greek Jews...
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


Title page of a 17th century book claiming that Native Americans are of Jewish origin

https://archive.org/details/iewesinamericaor00thor

____________________________________

It's in a book. Does that make it true?
To determine a claim you have to look at the method used to prove the claim and see if it is backed by convincing evidence
-rather than confirmation bias where you want something to be true and then go looking only for bits and pieces that you think contributes to the belief while ignoring other information to the contrary
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

Daniel Finch, 2nd Earl of Nottingham and 7th Earl of Winchilsea by Jonathan Richardson




Memoirs of the Secret Services of John Macky, Esq.: During the Reigns of King William
1733

_______________________________________

In this time period one will find writers who will refer to Africans as "black" and at the same time Europeans looking slightly tinted "black". The word is used inconstantly, not like it used today in America, "Black" with a strong connotation of only primary African descent
Yet in 1733 this man Daniel Finch, 2nd Earl of Nottingham is described as a "tall thin very black man"
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
The links of W Afrs of Jewish heritage to S&P
Sephardic (note spelling) are untiable since
the earliest expulsion throughout the inquisition.

I first came across the Seph/Ash blk/yte quote in this book decades ago which includes legacy genetic data.




Context can determine when moreno is an euphemism
for African black descent or a Euro brunette. Also
black is not limited to any African Negro Race so
all Euro notices of black do not equate to such.


Alongside the fact of black complexioned
Sepharadiym of Iberia, there's a polemic by
a French Jew comparing Jews complexion to
a plum while attributing mensal coitus
as the reason for palr complexions.


Bruder's book is the most reliable current one
on Jews of Africa until the fine day Israelites
finally document the subject themselves, a task
I can't get them to take on though there are
degreed anthropologists and historians (Harvard
no less) among them.


She was feted by the 102 yr old traditional
Israelite community at Beth Shalom synagogue
in Brooklyn when her book was first published.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Garfield-Judas ( the agent) has a guy that says all dark/black/african Sephardic jews are the slaves of the white sephards that they converted for whatever purposes..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZUaHAdqgfs&t=11s


If Kwa tribes have Hebraic connections which I believe to be likely case, the most logical place to look is through the Yemen post Babylonian exile pre Ezra 2nd Temple


Academics Dierk Lange and Dana Marniche both use this model it really makes the most sense

I believe this exile was of the African/Arabic/Hebrew tribes from Canaan


when it comes to Ashanti I would agree with Eva Meyerowitz pointing to a Phoenician/Punic Hebraic influence in their culture/genetics and beliefs..

Understanding that all of these groups mixed and mingled with indigenous tribes of the West coast creating new groups and polities that we know today


Histories, peoples and migrations are always complicated and I don't like simplistic dismissals or easy affirmations..

quote:

---

The present Christians in Africa are partly Strangers, and partly Natives, some of them slaves to the Turks and Barbarians, and others free. Some of the Jews who inhabit both Sides the Niger derive themselves from Abraham. Others fled hither from Asia when Vespasian destroy’d Jerusalem, or from Judea when t’was wasted by the Romans, Persians, Saracens, and Christians. Some were banish’d from Italy in 1342, from Spain in 1462, from the Low Countries in 1350, from France in 1403, and from England in 1422. These all differ in Habit, and are divided into several wealthy and numerous Tribes, but have no Dominion, are despis’d of all Nations, and so abominated by the Turks that they are not admitted to be Mohometans unless first baptiz’d, and then made use of only to receive their Customs, and gather in their Taxes."

---

quote:

---

The people of Yoruba are descended from the Kanaana
[= Canaanites] and the kindred of Nimrud.

---

quote:

---

314 Now the reason of their having
settled in the west according to what we are told is that Yaarubu son of Kahtan drove them out of Irak to westwards

315 and they travelled between Masar [Misr, i.e. Egypt] and Habash [= Ethiopia] until they reached Yoruba. It happened that they left a portion of their people in every country they passed. It is said that the Sudanese who live up on the hills [i.e. the Nigerian Plateau] are all their kindred; so also the people of Yauri are their kindred.
The people of Yoruba resemble those of Nufi in appearance

310. Muahammed Bello - Scholar and later (1817-31) Caliph of Sokoto, author of many works in Arabic; his Infaq al-Maisur, cited here, was written in 1812. A partial translation of this passage
was included in Denham & Clapperton 1826, 163, 165.

---

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Post Roman destruction Judaeans had connections
clear to China. The one stop shop for Hebraisms in
West Africa particularly Ghana is Joseph J Williams.

Our Sahel/Savannah traditions do not derive us
from Yemen. Our split migrations west, west by
southwest, and southwest stem overwhelmingly
from Libya following a reverse pogrom there in
the 2nd century.

al Maghili a"a had many synagogues razed
and offered the equal of $25 for every
severed Jewish head in the Tuat oases
and swayed many W-WC African kings
toward Jew hatred.


Teimani have been in Yemen since the Red Sea
Indian Ocean trade. They migrated nowhere
from there but have relationship to Beta
Israel who traditionally are stay at homes
with strict purification rites against any
leaving villages and coming in contact with
non-Jews for any reason. They too have no
migratory exodes to anywhere.

Israelites of Nigeria are from straight southward
from Libya migrants. The Libyan Israeli qahal took
a few in back in the days Israeli government was
super strict against any kind of helix haired
blx making aliyah.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
What may be instructing re the 18th century François-Maximillien Mission quote
about black S&P Jewry is this 19th century one from Count Adam Gurowski.

quote:

---

Numbers of Jews have the greatest resemblance to the American mulattos. Sallow carnation complexion, thick lips, crisp black hair. Of all the Jewish population scattered over the globe one fourth dwells in Poland. I am therefore well acquainted with their features. On my arrival in this country, I took every light colored mulatto for a Jew.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
What may be instructing re the 18th century François-Maximillien Mission quote
about black S&P Jewry
is this 19th century one from Count Adam Gurowski

quote:

---

Numbers of Jews have the greatest resemblance to be American mulattos. Salo Carnation complexion, thick lips, Chris black hair. Of all the Jewish population scattered over the blue tube 1-4 s dwells in Poland. I am therefore well acquainted with your features. On my arrival in this country, I took every light colored mulatto for a Jew.

---

.


Scrip flippin from W Afr Jews onto Eur Jews of W Afr features.


Anybody wanna see some W Afr legacy DNA data for Jewry?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

Daniel Finch, 2nd Earl of Nottingham and 7th Earl of Winchilsea by Jonathan Richardson




Memoirs of the Secret Services of John Macky, Esq.: During the Reigns of King William
1733

_______________________________________

In this time period one will find writers who will refer to Africans as "black" and at the same time Europeans looking slightly tinted "black". The word is used inconstantly, not like it used today in America, "Black" with a strong connotation of only primary African descent
Yet in 1733 this man Daniel Finch, 2nd Earl of Nottingham is described as a "tall thin very black man"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
The links of W Afrs of Jewish heritage to S&P
Sephardic (note spelling) are untiable since
the earliest expulsion throughout the inquisition.

I first came across the Seph/Ash blk/yte quote in this book decades ago which includes legacy genetic data.



Context can determine when moreno is an euphemism
for African black descent or a Euro brunette. Also
black is not limited to any African Negro Race so
all Euro notices of black do not equate to such.


Alongside the fact of black complexioned
Sepharadiym of Iberia, there's a polemic by
a French Jew comparing Jews complexion to
a plum while attributing mensal coitus
as the reason for palr complexions.


Bruder's book is the most reliable current one
on Jews of Africa until the fine day Israelites
finally document the subject themselves, a task
I can't get them to take on though there are
degreed anthropologists and historians (Harvard
no less) among them.


She was feted by the 102 yr old traditional
Israelite community at Beth Shalom synagogue
in Brooklyn when her book was first published.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
Garfield-Judas ( the agent) has a guy that says all dark/black/african Sephardic jews are the slaves of the white sephards that they converted for whatever purposes..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZUaHAdqgfs&t=11s

---

Yes... garfield saw that a lot of Israelites were using his (Schorsch's) book to prove the Jews were literal black people so garfield went and let the guy know so that he could try to clean everything up in an interview.

But it's too late... Schorsch wrote what he wrote. I quoted 3 passages from his book in my last post, and as you can see, the new perspective he seems to have taken on the issue in his recent interviews with garfield completely contradicts the information that he's written in his book.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Alright, gimme a few.


Here're some select extracts.

Right off the bat we see the
African big D is no myth ha ha gotchas





Glean whatever into your own insights.
Like southern Sepharadiym already
admixed with German Jews under their
authority, further deliberately
whitened their 'olive' skins by
intermarriage even with unconverted
whites. If female all generations from
her are legally non-Jewish. How many
white American Jews have such unknown
ancestry. None would want the consequences
if a fact like that became known at large.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

Chafariz d’el Rey in the Alfama District (of Lisbon)
Painting with a view of a square with the Kings Fountain, in Lisbon.
Date: 1570
Location: Lisbon, Portugal


(detail of above)


The painting is not only unprecedented for its portrayal of so many Jews — who have long beards, flat berets and yellow circles affixed to their clothes, per Charles V’s ruling — in the 1500s, but also for its depiction of so many African figures. Jews and blacks lived in coterminous neighborhoods at the port, which was considered less desirable real estate.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Tazarah, personally I think an convert is much more of an asset to a religion than someone who doesn't practice the religion but can trace their ancestry back to the founders of the religion.

Someone in West Africa might practice Judaism but have no Hebrew ancestry and another person might have Hebrew Israelite ancestry but practice Islam or Christianity.

So if you go to some random location in West Africa can you tell if some random person has Hebrew ancestry or not ?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
And oh yeah, current genomics uncovered ancestry
genetically indistinct from 'Senegal-Congo'
speakers dated to before the Babylonian exile.


=-=-=


^^ Ah, the two ghettoized Europeans
Blx n Jwz
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 



Altarpiece of the Holy Cross (Retablo de la Santa Cruz); Church of Blesa, Aragon, Spain. This panel shows Saint Helena enthroned among the Jews. Helena wears a trigregnum, symbolizing that she represents the Catholic Church in her quest for the True Cross. Spanish-gothic style; oil on wood, c.1481-1487.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Lioness.. stop spamming pics that do not pertain to the subject of the thread

quote:

---

And oh yeah, current genomics uncovered ancestry
genetically indistinct from 'Senegal-Congo'
speakers dated to before the Babylonian exile.


=-=-=


^^ Ah, the two ghettoized Europeans
Blx n Jwz

---

quote:

---

---

quote:

---

Yeah them two guys Moorjani^ and Price* showed W Afr genomes in biblical Israelites.

*
Beduin 9% YRI 90 generations ago
inferred dates of 60–90 generations
correspond to about 2,000–4,000 years ago


^
Iraqi Jews 4.5% W Afr ancestry 93-137 generations ago
3–5% sub-Saharan African ancestry in the 8 diverse Jewish groups
date of the mixture of 72 generations (∼2,000 years assuming 29 years per generation)
Iraqi Jews —who are thought to descend at least in part from Jews who were exiled to Babylon about 2,600 years ago— share the signal of African admixture.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova:
Tazarah says:
. I never stated that the religion of the LOCATION of ancient West Africa was Judaism, I simply said the people (West AFRICANS), hence the usage of the word West AFRICANS (emphasis on the people), as opposed to west AFRICA (the location) -- nor did I ever insinuate that the source I quoted from made any claims about the religion of the LOCATION of West Africa -- but rather the PEOPLE. I'm not backtracking at all, you just aren't comprehending what's being said.

LOL, you have been caught out in source misrepresentation, and now
you are trying to backtrack your way out by obfuscation. Yes, you said
“West Africans”- and that claim has been severely debunked.
You are now trying to create a red herring by claiming that you were
not referring to “location.” But no one ever said you were referring to
any “location.” The red herring does not work. We all know you were
referring to “people” i.e. “West Africans” and based on your own “people”
statement your argument fails.


2. I've posted several sources in this thread that all corroborate every claim I've made about the Jews being black/negro people who either migrated to West Africa from Jerusalem after the fall of Jerusalem (the original source being one of them), as well as sources explaining how the black/negro Jews who were banished from Europe ending up in West Africa (the original source once again being one of those sources.

Its all well and good to CLAIM something, but so far you have not produced
anything credible in support. Matter of fact your own “supporting” references
debunk your claim, as detailed above.


Please refer to my response to the lioness for these sources, as I prefer to keep my responses as brief and to the point as possible to avoid leaving room for deflection, strawman arguments and red herrings.

Now that you are called out you want to be “brief” and “to the point”.
But your own references undermine the claims you are trying to make >
Now as to what you proffer to lioness re Leo Africanus, it too fails to
support your claim. QUOTE:

Leo Africanus:
” Judaism was the Religion of the ancient Africans for a long Time, and succeeded by Christianity; but Mohometanism prevail’d in the 208th year of the Hegyra, when all the Jews, Christians and Professors of the African Religion that could be found, were put to death;

The only thing is, Leo was not referring to West Africa but the region on which
most of his writings are based- the Nile Valley, Egypt, the Middle East. His quote
does not apply to West Africa. Hence, once again, your “supporting” reference
does not support what you are claiming it does.


3. Parfitt clearly states on page 4 of his book (Black Jews in Africa and the Americas) that according to longstanding European tradition, the Jews were always known to be black both metaphorically AND literally. I already emphasized the literal part once before, did you miss it? Here it is once again:

"A long European tradition maintained that the Jews, in general, were certainly 'black' metaphorically, in the sense that they were diabolical and evil, as well as black literally."

"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 4 (2013) Harvard University Press

No I didn’t “miss” it. What you are conveniently ducking and dodging is what
has been already detailed above. Parfitt is talking about disparaging commentary
by Europeans against Jews, by comparing and linking them to negroes or blacks.
It has nothing to do with West Africans having Judaism as their religion, nor does
it lend any support for your “Jerusalem saddle up and go to Africa” approach. You left
out the following from page 4 of Parkitt:

--------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------
A long Euro pe an tradition maintained that the Jews, in general,
were certainly “black” meta phor ical ly, in the sense that they were diabolical
and evil, as well as black literally. One Christian critic of the
supposedly “Jewish” pope Anacletus II, elected in 1130, hinted that
Jews were generally regarded as dark when he noted that the pope
was “dark and pale, more like a Jew or an Arab than a Christian.” Sir
William Brereton (1604– 1661), the English parliamentarian, soldier,
and writer, happened to visit a Sephardi synagogue in Amsterdam,
where he commented that the Jews were very dark- skinned and
lascivious—“they were most black . . . and insatiably given unto
women.”14 In his New Voyage to Italy (1714), François Maximilian
Misson (c. 1650– 1722), the French writer and traveler, confi rms that
the general supposition was that Jews were black when he noted that
all Jews were black, although only Portuguese Jews started off black:. “
--------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------

Some of this commentary notes that yes some Jews are dark-skinned but it does
nothing to help your “West Africans” theory. The critic of the “Jew pope” also
notes that Arabs are also dark-skinnad. The English critic was visiting Amsterdam
Holland, not West Africa when he claimed Jews were dark-skinned. The French
guy Misson did not travel to West Africa, but rather Italy and later on the East Indies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilien_Misson
None of these people ever went to West Africa, and they are not referring to West Africans.

Burt even if they actually went to West Africa and saw some dark-skinnad Jewz
your argument would fail anyway, both as to Judaism being the religion of
the West Africans, or the claimed “migration from Jerusalem” approach.

Both notions and bullshiiiit, and fail repeatedly. Some people drink
from the fountain of knowledge. It looks like you just gargled.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova:
Originally posted by Tazarah:


1) First of all, zaharan said Tudor Parfitt only wrote about the Jews being black metaphorically, yet I literally quoted from page 4 of Parfitt's book and it says the Jews were black both metaphorically as well as literally.


1) Laughable try at diversion, but you again fail. I
mentioned both the metaphorical aspects AND the
literal dark-skin, including the link to blacks,
not "only" metaphorically. Your lie is easily
seen on the page.

QUOTE- Zarahan:
Parfitt speaks of Jews as "blacks" METAPHORICALLY, and the discussion is of
some Europeans trying to bash Jews by comparing them to blacks. He then notes
that anti-Jewish critics asserted that Jews were dark-skinned, with others saying
only the Portuguese Jews were dark-skinned. The bottom line is to "diss" the
Jews, and one easy way to do that was to link them to blacks.


"A long European tradition maintained that the Jews, in general, were certainly 'black' metaphorically, in the sense that they were diabolical and evil, [b] as well as black literally."
"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 4 (2013) Harvard University Press
https://books.google.com/books?id=SBtqXClBWTIC

2) Yo! My Blek Hebro! your own "supporting" reference
undermines your claims.

_______


. zaharan said:
"He then notes that anti-Jewish critics asserted that Jews were dark-skinned, with others saying only the Portuguese Jews were dark-skinned. The bottom line is to "diss" the
Jews, and one easy way to do that was to link them to blacks."

^^^ first of all, the quote literally says the portuguese Jews were black, not "dark-skinned" as your lying buddy zaharan falsely claimed.

This is the reference:
"Tis a vulgar error that the Jews are all black; for this is only true of the Portuguese, who, marrying always among one another, beget children like themselves, and consequently the swarthiness of their complexion is entail'd upon their whole Race, even in the Northern regions. But the Jews who are originally of Germany, those, for example, I have seen at Prague, are not blacker than the rest of their countrymen."

"A New Voyage to Italy" by Maximilien Misson, page 139 (1714) R. Bonwicke
-------------------------------


3) You fail again Hebro. I note not only that the Portuguese
ere dark-skinned but affirm that blackness was in play by
the European attempts to link the Jews to blacks.

https://books.google.com/books/about/A_New_Voyage_to_Italy.html?id=yC9OAAAAYAAJ


3) But ironically, your own reference AGAIN goes on the debunk your claims- QUOTE:

""Tis a vulgar error that the Jews are all black; for this is only true of the Portuguese, who, marrying always among one another, beget children like themselves, and consequently the swarthiness of their complexion is entail'd upon their whole Race, even in the Northern regions. But the Jews who are originally of Germany, those, for example, I have seen at Prague, are not blacker than the rest of their countrymen."


You keep insisting that all these Jews are black. But your own "supporting"
reference, Misson, says that all Jews are NOT black, and
that the Jews of Prague are not blacker than the rest of their countrymen.
And in any event, we all know Portuguese come in a variety of shades, so
they can't, and were never all black. There goes another one of your
"Black Hebe" claims.


Third, zaharan said the Jews were not really black but labeled as black as an insult or to bash them. If that were truly the case as our friend zaharan would like everyone to believe, and the Jews were only labeled as black to bash them, then why does the reference only say the Portuguese Jews were all black, while the rest of the Jews were not? Why weren't ALL of the Jews labeled as black? According to zaharan's eurocentric logic, ALL of them should have been labeled as black if what zaharan is saying were true.

4) Ha aha ahhah, My Hebro! You can't even spin a good tale. No I
didn't say Jews were "only labeled" as black. I affirmed
that they were dark-skinned. Dark skin means anything from dark brown
to jet black. You diversionary gambit keeps on failing. And in
fact I affirm blackness is in play by how the Europeans try to
linking said Jewsm to blacks. None of your diversions work.
In fact your own supporting reference destroys your attempt to argue that
all Jews are black, when it notes that only the Portuguese started
off black and Jews elsewhere were not blacker than their countrymen.
You keep on shooting yourself in the foot with your own reference.


Was there something special about the Portuguese Jews that zaharan knows about, that we don't?

5) Why don;t you tell us what you think is "special" about the Portuguese
Jews that made them black. And let's have something more recent than
your 1714 reference, by a man who never even went to Africa. We'll wait..


4. zaharan tried to deflect and create a strawman regarding the source I referenced which says the Israelites migrated into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem by mentioning places they went to before reaching West Africa, as if that changes the fact that they [b] ended up in West Africa.

6) Ha ahah ahah a hahahh aha ah.. What "diversion" when you yoself,
mighty "Black Hebe theorist" claim that QUOTE:

"History has recorded the date and cause of the Israelitish immigration into West Africa after the destruction of Jerusalem..."

What ho! Black Hebro! Tell us when are where was this cool migration
from Jerusalem into West Africa?


========================== =======

Let's recap the failure of your "Black Hebe of West Africa" theory.
So far you have put nothing credible on the table in support, and your
own "supporting" references keep undermining your arguments as to:

1) Judaism being the religion of West African blacks

2) The Israelites migrating direct to West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem


None of your proffered sources, and even the
one I first cited (Parfitt 2013) support these claims, whether it be:

--The 1714 source

--The 1854 source

--The 2013 source


But Tally Ho! Black Hebro! There's always next year in Jerusalem..

---

quote:

---

Africans which inhabited Libya and Numidia, would each of them worship some certain planet, unto whom likewise they offered sacrifices and prayers. Some others of the land of Negros worship Guighimo,, that is to say, the Lord of Heave. And this sound point of religion was not delivered unto them by any Prophet or teacher, but was inspired, as it were, from God himself. After that, they embraced the Jewish law, wherein they are said to have continued many years. Afterward they professed the Christian religion, and continued Christian, until such time as the Mahumetand superstition prevailed; which came to pass in the year of the Hegira 208. About which time certain of Mahomet's disciples so bewitched them with eloquent and deceivable speeches, that they allured their weak minds to consent unto their opinion; in so much that all the kingdoms of the Negros adjoining unto Libya received the Mahumetan law. Neither is there any region in all the Negros land, which hath in it at this day any Christians at all. At the same time such as were found to be Jews, Christians, or of the African religion, were slain every man of them. Howbeit those which dwell near onto the Ocean Sea, are all of them very gross idolaters. Between whom and the Portugals there hath been from time to time and even at this present is, great traffic and familiarity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:


Not to mention the 3+ sources I posted proving that the Jews who were banished to West Africa from Portugal were literal black/negro people with black/negro descendants.

3. I never made the claim that any source said ALL Jews were black -- I'm the one who pointed out that the source you are misrepresenting says that only the Portuguese Jews were known to be black, which debunks your lie about the Jews only being called black as an insult. There were literal black/negro Jews and many sources prove this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@zaharan

Oh wow, waddya know? The jewish virtual library website corroborates the facts presented in this thread as well.

"Persecution and trade have been the influencing factors in how the Jews migrated through Africa. During periods of Islamic persecution and for the purposes of trade, Jews moved from communities in Egypt, Ethiopia, Tunisia and Morocco to more remote regions of north and WEST AFRICA."

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/nigeria-virtual-jewish-history-tour

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
You completely ignored everything I said in my last response to you, and you completely ignored all of the sources I presented to you. Why is that?

---

please go to the top of your previous post and hit the notepad icon and delete the long quote or mine and just leave your comment it's too repetitive, thanks

zarahan chopped you down to size but you don't seem to get it

if a book says ""the Israelites migrated directly into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem.."
that is not proof. Once a remark is made like that they also have to site evidence that is is true, for instance verifiable artifacts or authentic historic texts

Note in my last post, actual people and specific places named
"West Africa" is much too broad. You need cities or towns with names

then another post several posts before that on
Tuat with details

Come on now, this vague stuff you have is not cutting it
My stuff is weighing your argument better than you are as for Jews in Africa

---

Indeed. Several points in the arguments are weak. Now if the goalposts
are being shifted to talk about the Portuguese, then that is a different issue.
But I see no info posted as to Jewish migration via Portugal into
West Africa. And can not one argue that migration may have happened via
the Arabs or Muslims first, before Europe got involved?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's another weakness- the reference does not support the 2 main points at issue:

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@zaharan
Oh wow, waddya know? The jewish virtual library website corroborates the facts presented in this thread as well.

"Persecution and trade have been the influencing factors in how the Jews migrated through Africa. During periods of Islamic persecution and for the purposes of trade, Jews moved from communities in Egypt, Ethiopia, Tunisia and Morocco to more remote regions of north and WEST AFRICA."

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/nigeria-virtual-jewish-history-tour


^^^ Sure. The Jews migrated for trade and to escape persecution. No one
denies this. But again, this does not support the religion of West Africans
being Judaism, or migrations from Jerusalem to West Africa when the Romans
took over.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


the Jews of Portugal, the ones dressed in black[with brimmed hats

Chafariz d’el Rey in the Alfama District (of Lisbon)
Painting with a view of a square with the Kings Fountain, in Lisbon.
Date: 1570

__________________________________


And why even talk about the Jews in Portugal 1500 as regard to the Israelites 1500 BC?

Did you forget what AD and BC means?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Tazarah,

Someone in West Africa might practice Judaism but have no Hebrew ancestry and another person in West Africa might have Hebrew Israelite ancestry but practice Islam or Christianity.

So if we go to some random location in West Africa can we tell if some random person has Hebrew ancestry going back to the Israelites or not ?

There are a few thousand tribes in Africa.
If random person in Africa was selected we would not know what tribe they were from without additional information? Jews would be only one tribe within a few thousand, only a small fraction of the people would have this ancestry

Or are you one of those BHI that believes Africans are not Israelites, only AAs with ancestors brought by the Europeans to the Americas as slaves?
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@zaharan

At this point, you're claiming that being literally back doesn't mean literally black and that caucasian people can be literally black, you're claiming that sources don't say what they literally say (that these Jews in question were BLACK, not "dark-skinned"), and you are refusing to address other sources I've posted that completely debunk your argument.

I've provided sources that state the Jews who were banished to West Africa during the Inquisition were literal black/negro people who had literal black/negro descendants, and I've even provided a firsthand account from 641 AD which says the Israelites could not be told apart from the Nubians and Ethiopians (black sub-saharan africans).

White caucasian people do not resemble black sub-saharan africans in any way, shape or form.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


the Jews of Portugal, the ones dressed in black[with brimmed hats

Chafariz d’el Rey in the Alfama District (of Lisbon)
Painting with a view of a square with the Kings Fountain, in Lisbon.
Date: 1570

__________________________________


And why even talk about the Jews in Portugal 1500 as regard to the Israelites 1500 BC?

Did you forget what AD and BC means?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Leo is an excellent source, considering what it is,
for a Maghrebi's view of Africa north of 15 degrees
and has a Nile Valley section in the Sahelian book,
a book on Egypt, and poor to nothing on any non-existant
'Middle East'. After, all the title is The Description
of Africa, and of the Memorable Things Contained Therein.


Speaking of Sahel African blacks he writes

quote:

---

Africans which inhabited Libya and Numidia, would each of them worship some certain planet, unto whom likewise they offered sacrifices and prayers. Some others of the land of Negros worship Guighimo,, that is to say, the Lord of Heave. And this sound point of religion was not delivered unto them by any Prophet or teacher, but was inspired, as it were, from God himself. After that, they embraced the Jewish law, wherein they are said to have continued many years. Afterward they professed the Christian religion, and continued Christian, until such time as the Mahumetand superstition prevailed; which came to pass in the year of the Hegira 208. About which time certain of Mahomet's disciples so bewitched them with eloquent and deceivable speeches, that they allured their weak minds to consent unto their opinion; in so much that all the kingdoms of the Negros adjoining unto Libya received the Mahumetan law. Neither is there any region in all the Negros land, which hath in it at this day any Christians at all. At the same time such as were found to be Jews, Christians, or of the African religion, were slain every man of them. Howbeit those which dwell near onto the Ocean Sea, are all of them very gross idolaters. Between whom and the Portugals there hath been from time to time and even at this present is, great traffic and familiarity.

---

---

quote:

---

So far you have put nothing credible on the table in support, and your
own "supporting" references keep undermining your arguments as to:

1) Judaism being the religion of West African blacks

2) The Israelites migrating direct to West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem


None of your proffered sources, and even the
one I first cited (Parfitt 2013) support these claims, whether it be:

--The 1714 source

--The 1854 source

--The 2013 source

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:


"History has recorded the date and cause of the Israelitish immigration into West Africa after the destruction of Jerusalem..."

"Algeria: The Topography and History" by John Reynell Morell, page 335 (1854) Nathaniel Cooke, Milford House, Strand

https://books.google.com/books/about/Algeria.html?id=8y9DAAAAcAAJ

---

quote:

---

" Algerie, by Baron Baude, vol. iii,
1843. History has recorded the date and cause of the Israelitish immigration into West Africa, after the destruction of Jerusalem ;

Algerie, by Baron Baude, vol. iii, 1843
look into it [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:


"History has recorded the date and cause of the Israelitish immigration into West Africa after the destruction of Jerusalem..."

---

what is this record? Is the definition of a record "any statement written in a book"
or should a historical record refer to an ancient historical text or artifact evidence ?

You are trying to sell us a sack of gold coins but won't open it
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
No twisting Africana to save ego.

The text is explicit and not about Libya
and Numidia but 'Negrosland' south of them.
I simply gave a one line intro to let on
Leo covers other zones. The Sahra and north
ward Africans get more than that line as
seen in the snapshot below.


Every tyro Africana student knows the Sudan
of the Arabic chroniclers is beled es Sudan
aka southern Sahra, Sahel, Savannah from
Atlantic to Lake Tschad to the White and
Blue Niles.


Not going to convolute argue what's plainly written on who the subjects are.

Rage on. I'm addressing ES at large.

I own the damn book since 1983 and know
its full, varied author, content from
publisher, to Leo, to translator in
facsimile of the original English edition.




https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv7iM54UnP0


Folks need to sit chill and examine Leo for the
sake of Leo not merely to prop up a side of anargumemt.

So find it online somewhere and read it.
I got some 35 years on you and have seen
ethnocentric quoters often go farther
than warranted but to lie when the
text is plain? SMH

This is what it's come to?
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@zaharan

still deflecting eh?

Did you miss the part where I provided another source, from the jewish virtual library website, which literally says the Jews migrated throughout africa and into west africa? So now that's two different sources saying the same thing.

You sure are afraid to touch the sources I've presented that say the Jews who were banished to West Africa from Portugal during the Inquisition were black/negro people who had black/negro descendants....

_______

"King John II in 1492, expelled all the Jews to the island of St. Thomas, which had been discovered in 1471, and to other Portuguese settlements on the continent of Africa ; and from these banished Jews, the black Portuguese, as they are called, and the Jews in Loango, who are despised even by the very Negroes, are descended."

"The Critical Review, Or, Annals of Literature, Volume 57" by Tobias George Smollett, page 141 (1783) W. Simpkin and R. Marshall

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Critical_Review_Or_Annals_of_Literat.html?id=d2IvAQAAMAAJ
_______

"A remarkable fact in the history of loango, in the empire of congo is, that the country, according to a statement which was fully credited by Oldendorp (a European missionary from the 1700s), himself a writer of most correct judgement and unimpeachable veracity, contains many Jews settled in it, who retain their religious rites and the distinct habits which keep them isolated from other nations. Though this seperated from the African population, they (the Jews) are black, and resemble the other negroes in every respect as of physical character. It is probably in allusion to this case that Pennington (1827), in his text book says, the DESCENDANTS of a COLONY OF JEWS originally from Judea, settled on the coast of Africa, are black."

"A Tribute for the Negro" by Wilson Armistead, page 65-66 (1848) W. Irwin; American agent, W. Harned, New York

https://books.google.com/books/about/A_Tribute_for_the_Negro.html?id=YCGLzSxVSsIC
_______

"...which led the Roman Catholic Missionaries, who laboured here during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, to the conclusion that they had found black Jews in Loango."

"The Nautical Magazine and Naval Chronicle for 1870" by Various, page 529 (2013) Cambridge University Press

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Nautical_Magazine_and_Naval_Chronicl.html?id=BwrsiE3i49AC&hl=en
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@zaharan

Let alone the firsthand account written by the arabs in 641 AD which says the Israelites couldn't be told apart from the Ethiopians and the Nubians... yeah, that totally sounds like "dark-skinned" white people.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:


Let alone the firsthand account written by the arabs in 641 AD which says the Israelites couldn't be told apart from the Ethiopians and the Nubians... yeah, that totally sounds like "dark-skinned" white people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:


Let alone the firsthand account written by the arabs in 641 AD which says the Israelites couldn't be told apart from the Ethiopians and the Nubians... yeah, that totally sounds like "dark-skinned" white people.

---

Tazarah,

Someone in West Africa might practice Judaism but have no Hebrew ancestry and another person in West Africa might have Hebrew Israelite ancestry but practice Islam or Christianity.

So if we go to some random location in West Africa can we tell if some random person has Hebrew ancestry going back to the Israelites or not ?

There are a few thousand tribes in Africa.
If random person in Africa was selected we would not know what tribe they were from without additional information? Jews would be only one tribe within a few thousand, only a small fraction of the people would have this ancestry

So how do we know who is who?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:


All I've done is provide sources and historical references stating that the Israelites migrated to West Africa

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:


All I've done is provide sources and historical references stating that the Israelites migrated to West Africa

---

when did this migration occur?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:


All I've done is provide sources and historical references stating that the Israelites migrated to West Africa

---

when did this migration occur?

---

According to the same website that you referenced yesterday:

"No one is certain when ancient Hebrews first emigrated from the Middle East and settled in West Africa. It is thought that they began to arrive before 202 BCE, the date associated with the arrival of iron working civilizations in West Africa (e.g. the Nok)....

...Persecution and trade have been the major influencing factors in how the Jews migrated through Africa. During periods of Islamic persecution and for the purposes of trade, Jews moved from communities in Egypt, Ethiopia, Tunisia and Morocco to more remote regions of North and West Africa. Trade routes to West Africa may have been established as early as the period in which David ruled Israel, and the term Tarshish, found in the Tanach, may refer to the Ivory Coast of West Africa."

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/nigeria-virtual-jewish-history-tour

---

quote:

---

Just as there exist a number of theories about from whom the Ibo are descendant,
there are as many theories as to how they came to reside in Nigeria.

One theory holds that ancient Hebrews and later, ancient Israelis migrated west from the Arabian Peninsula through Egypt, Ethiopia, Kenya and Sudan. No one is certain when ancient Hebrews first emigrated from the Middle East and settled in West Africa. It is thought that they began to arrive before 202 BCE, the date associated with the arrival of iron working civilizations in West Africa (e.g. the Nok).

An additional theory states that North African Jews traded and traveled within the West African Kingdoms of Mali, Songhai and Kanem-Bornu. Jews are believed to have been a prominent demographic in these empires. It is even thought that several rulers of the Songhai empire had Jewish roots. It appears however that Judaism in the West African empires came to an abrupt end when Askia Muhammad came to power and in 1492, ordered that all Jews convert to Islam or face expulsion.

Another theory maintains that Jews traveling with trade caravans from Northeast Africa moved through West Africa. According to certain accounts, such as Travels in North Africa by Nahum Slouschz, Jewish identity can be found in North Africa since the founding of Carthage, specifically, descendants of the tribes of Zevulun and Asher.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
[QB] @the lioness

Fact of the matter is, it is a widely accepted fact that the Jews migrated to West Africa. As I've just shown you, the same website you referenced yesterday (Jewish Virtual Library) emphatically states this.

---

quote:

---

Yoruba posit indigenous origins in
Nigeria. Ethnology archaeology and
genomics support that.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008915


Short and sweet on the genome tip
quote:


Yeah them two guys Moorjani^ and Price* showed W Afr genomes in biblical Israelites.

*
Beduin 9% YRI 90 generations ago
inferred dates of 60–90 generations
correspond to about 2,000–4,000 years ago


^
Iraqi Jews 4.5% W Afr ancestry 93-137 generations ago
3–5% sub-Saharan African ancestry in the 8 diverse Jewish groups
date of the mixture of 72 generations (∼2,000 years assuming 29 years per generation)
Iraqi Jews —who are thought to descend at least in part from Jews who were exiled to Babylon about 2,600 years ago— share the signal of African admixture.

---

I speak of Oyo Yoruba only... the DNA for Yoruba that we see in these gene studies quoted endlessly was taken from Ibadan.. a notorious slaving hub for 200 years... a soup of indigenous west African ethnicity now called "Yoruba"

These some Oyo Yoruba where reported to have hazel eyes...

quote:

---

This is my heritage it comes largely
from the Osiride Resurrection cultus
of Ancient Egypt and partly from
ancient Iraqi theology woven together
by a group of Canaanites who seceded
east to the hills forging a new identity
free of Canaanite and its overlord Egypt
hegemony; to the best of my researches.

---

Yes.. Yawhist version v. Priestly...

I will go with Y precedes P and is the most authentic.. P is the first appropriation and distortion.. you can call it tradition that is fine. Your culture fine... that should never preclude the curious and interested from critical examination..


Ezra did not like the Yahu's on the ground when he got back from Babylon...



 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova:
Most Europeans back then, as now, do not consider
Judaism to be the religion of ancient black West
Africans long before the arrival of Christianity
or Islam. African Jews there were in West Africa,
but Judaism as a significant "religion of West Africa?"
Hardly..

To the contrary, almost every credible writing studying
pre-colonial West Africa shows that Judaism was not
significant numerically. See for example the mainstream
history written by an African scholar.

African Religions & Philosophy
By John S. Mbiti

---

West African ethnic groups relate to, or are also part of the Afroasiatic phylum. These groups either relate genetically or linguistically, and sometimes both. How many European ethnic groups relate to these in ethnography and or linguistically? Did John S. Mbiti also touch that in his book?

West African Afroasiatic languages: Guus, Jilbe, Jimi, Jonkor, Ju, Kabali, Koenoem, Kofa, Kubi, Kupto, Lagwan, Langas, Luri, Lushi, Mabire, Maha, Mangas, Maslam, Mbara, Midah, Mser, Ngamo, Nggwahyi, Ngwaba, Pa’a, Polci, Sha, Shua, Siri, Sukur, Tahaggart, Tala, Tetserret, Tule, Tulai, Oubi, Zaar, Zari, Zeem, Zizilivakan, Zanaga, Zialo, Zul, Zumaya.


"John Samuel Mbiti (1931–2019) was a Kenyan-born Christian philosopher and writer. He was an ordained Anglican priest, and is considered "the father of modern African theology".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mbiti

How does John Samuel Mbiti explain the facts that more there's more linguistic Semitic diversity in Africa than there's in the West, which date back from before most of Europe was even in existence as we know it.

Rome Never Forgot The Hebrews Part 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0C0hXWgD0

Rome Never Forgot The Hebrews Part 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_Q2Ros_mPg&t=10s

Rome Never Forgot The Hebrews Part 3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXfMrbcKI80&t=3s
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
The problem with enthusiasts is that rationality and
paradox has no effect on their belief.


Some fail to see caucasian Aftican/Hamitic hypothesis
type implications.

Its absolutely preposterous Levantines introduced iron
to Nok in the 3rd century BCE. That shows a complete
lack of the history of Nigeria. Must authentic archaeology
be replaced by a lie because it bolsters Hebrew Africa claims.

Likewise the fantasy Yoruba originate as anything but
indigenees at the expense of dismissing their history
and theology accounts saying so in books by African
authors not in need of 'Mid-East'glow.

Gross extra Africa diffusionism to displace indigenous
African accomplishments and local genesis of tribes
kingdoms and empires.


Starting as an enthusiast myself I rejoiced to read
Wagadu was a Jewish founded empire as once seriously
proposed by Africanist, that Whyda = Judah and other
stuff that without a priori conclusions dissipate after
dispassionate impartial as possible examination.


What happens is one learns little to nothing about
Africa as Africa but succumbs to Africa as the
transplanted Eurasian accomplishments. We
see this in genetic reports trying to make
Anatolians and Sardinians the root of Africa
and other dumb shis like Brit genomes in W Afr
before any British Isles even historically congealed
a set of populations to pool.

The rare instances where two geneticist of two
non-related studies who propose African impact
on nearby Eurasia are summarily dismissed
without even reading their articles / examining
their data as is the archaeology of Nigeria .

Having done the same myself as late as 2000.
Luckily using the net and then primitive
newsgroups to share and discuss topics
with wider audiences than ever possible
in history I left my little provincial world
limits and began to analyze before concluding
instead of only looking for what backed up
what I wanted to hear.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Wellhausenian J P E D and sometimes R has nothing to do with my conclusions about nascent Israel
being Canaanites displeased with local politics.

But on the Wellhausen tip have you read what
critical Jewish commentary from the middle
ages til today have to say or do you just
accept the German's point above the Israels?

What about biblical critics rebuttals claiming
J E P D are purely imaginary unsupportable by
literary style methodology?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
I was very impressed by ibn Lobagola when first learning
pieces of his account. So impressed in fact enough to
track down a copy of his book. I own a copy with his
signature, I shih thee not.



I was let down when I discovered who he really was,
That the Emo Quaim and there scroll is at best the
work of an historic novel writer.

I had went so far as to vet a metal Sepher Torah in Nigeria because of Qumran's Copper Scroll.


In the last 20 years various continentals have
come out on Their Israel antecedents. No Emo
Quaim have stepped up. No scroll's been found.
The Nigerian I conferred with when he came to
pick up a scroll for his community knew nothing
about either.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

The problem with enthusiasts is that rationality and
paradox has no effect on their belief.

---

"enthusiast" lol how typically condescending. History is a science and rational. Here are the historical facts on the ground... All of the Kwa tribes from the Ashanti to the Igbo have absorbed a north east African/Near Eastern back migration... and that is according to all of their indigenous oral histories... ( now Judaism was just oral history of migrations before it was codified and written down)

So their own ORAL histories don't matter or count? now isn't that strange..

American Afrocentrist rightly wanted to emphasize indigenous African accomplishments as a counter argument to western racism and rightly so..

But that is in some ways that is counter to the oral histories of the peoples and it lacks nuance to the dynamic history of West Africa and it's peoples who had the ability to walk, learn, synthesize new peoples and ideas as a greater part of the world history.. and we also must not hide from or romanticize West African cultural caste systems that would end of contributing to the slave trade. I would never want to view some tribes as romanticized noble savages the way Euro's casted the Native tribes of America, rooted to the earth waiting for a slave ship to show up kidnap them...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wrBI7J-wc4&list=PLoFDYkUloZdgPE8CpOv0lheF_nKpKlndx&index=112

ghana queenmother part1

Oral history of Akan Migrations...


And I would argue that the north east African and near eastern back migrations where of African/Africa/Arabian peoples


Yorubas Contribution to Civilization with Dr. Brimmy Olaghere - Yoruba migrations

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGgGVA58dAQ


A question... if I back migrated to Africa now with my 25% euro/10% native american Admixture would that make me less African?
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
As an Afrocentrist think how disappointing it was to find out that the great Kingdom of Ghana was founded by Yemenite Jews..

Bawawah... lol...


Oduduwa Dudu is a Cannanite Egyptian name found in the Armana letters no less when Ken'an was just a province of the great Egyptian middle kingdom


Isn't it great that Nigerians are willing to tell their own oral histories in movies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mqhKk550Mc

Oduduwa Yoruba Movies 2016 New Release This Week Premium Movies
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Huh, was i condescending myself as I was as I said
an enthusiast of 'Am Yisrael heritage accepting
any and every thing advancing Israel Africa
claims w/o weighing disconfirming evidence.

I bumped the thread with Nigerian scholars
on the origins so yes I know what they say.
No Nigerians of my ASA acquaintance ever
said anything about extra-Nigeria and
adjacent region origins for Niger
Volta speakers.


=-=-=

'Socioculturally' many Israelites
and Muslims believe Yoruba and by
extension Guinea Gulf people practice
the spirituality of Canaan imported
by Canaanites.

I keep that kinda that out studies
suitable for those outside the
choir, so to speak. But that's
me.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Nigerian scholars of a certain era may be suffering for a need of origanialism and nativism too... I never said there where not indigenous tribes...by the way just said they have absorbed back migrations which I think is provable by oral history and genetics.


by the way.. I think that Yoruba have absorbed back migrations and Fulani and Hausa introgression.. Yoruba's are not NOT homogenous

Al Hajj Sekou Tall, "The Origins of the Fulani"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YGzor3jzRU


Let All Hajj tell it .. Fulani are "white people"


The indigenous British never apologize or think less of themselves after being invaded by the Romans, nor the Angles and Saxons nor the Normans
There are no blue eyes in Henry the 8th's court then how is it there are so many Britons with Blue eyes now? Saxon genetic sweep?
 

---

Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
 
I think the original Jews were Black and Brown people and originated in Upper Egypt. They were the followers of Pharaoh Akhenaton, who according to Sigmund Freud was the historical Moses.

According to professor Charles Finch, the word Jews is Yehudi in Hebrew that is a variation of the Egyptian God of knowledge Tehuti/Djehuti. according to the symbologist Michael Tsarion, the word Hebrew comes from the Egyptian word Ibaru that designated the Egyptian stellar priesthood and their secret language.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Gahbij

No kinda Jews from anywhere had nada to do with Wagadu
which cultural birth by Soninke in the now Mauritanian
Dhars precedes Israel clear over on the other side
of Africa by more than 500 yrs minimum.




Y*hudah =/= Djehuti
No? Show me the Hebrew characters and Egyptian glyphs
of both words and the lexicon entries. That's crazier than
Tjemehu = created white.

Where's Oduduwa or dudu in the Canaanite lexicon.
Show Oduduwa dudu in an AE lexicon or dictionary.
What is the Canaanite or the AEL word for the color black?

Something can't be replicated by other researchers
it's a belief not a fact and beliefs are faith based
as is Afr-eccentricism.


Yes Nigerians tell the story
Just as I a Jew of Torodbe
hal Pulaaren West African
antecedence am telling you
Jews are late comers to W Afr
and Afrs needed no outside help
to build or accomplish anything.

All my Tukuler and Ful emirs
leaving us their histories
never saw the art in Algeria
from the last African Humid
Period. If they did, as
Islamic reformist would they
have marred testimony from
the Age of Darkness.


The two most common Yoruba origin stories

quote:

---

Oduduwa is the legendary progenitor of the Yoruba. There are two variants of the story of how he achieved this feat. The first is cosmogonic, the second, political. The cosmogonic version also has two variants.

According to the first variant of the cosmogonic myth, Orisanla (Obatala) was the arch-divinity who was chosen by Olodumare, the supreme deity to create a solid land out of the primordial water that constituted the earth and of populating the land with human beings. He descended from heaven on a chain, carrying a small snail shell full of earth, palm kernels and a five-toed chicken. He was to empty the content of the snail shell on the water after placing some pieces of iron on it, and then to place the chicken on the earth to spread it over the promirdial water. According to the first version of the story, Obatala completed this task to the satisfaction of Olodumare. He was then given the task of making the physical body of human beings after which Olodumare will give them the breath of life. He also completed this task and this is why he has the title of "obarisa" the king of orisas.

The other variant of the cosmogonic myth does not credit Obatala with the completion of the task. While it concedes that Obatala was given the task, it avers that Obatala got drunk even before he got to the earth and he was unable to do the job. Olodumare got worried when he did not return on time, and he had to send Oduduwa to find out what was going on. When Oduduwa found Obatala drunk, he simply took over the task and completed it. He created land. The spot on which he landed from heaven and which he redeemed from water to become land is called Ile-Ife and is now considered the sacred and spiritual home of the Yoruba. Obatala was embarrased when he woke up and, due to this experience, he made it a taboo for any of his devotees to drink palm wine. Olodumare forgave him and gave him the responsibility of moulding the physical bodies of human beings. The making of land is a symbolic reference to the founding of the Yoruba kingdoms and this is why Oduduwa is credited with that achievement.

---

quote:

---

According to the second version of the myth, however, there was a pre-existing civilization at Ile-Ife prior to its invasion by a group led by Oduduwa. This group came from the east, where Oduduwa and his group had been persecuted on the basis of religious differences. They came to Ile-Ife and fought and conquered the pre-existing Igbo (unrelated to the present Igbo) inhabitants led by Oreluere. Obviously, there is a connection between the two versions of the story. The political one may be the authentic story of the founding of Ife kingdom through conquest. However, the myth of creation lends it a legitimacy that is denied by the conquest story; just as it appears that it is lent some credence by the fact that, as a result of the embarrassment it caused their deity, the followers of Obatala are forbidden from taking palm wine. Indeed the second version of the cosmogonic myth also appears to foreshadow the political variant. The claim that Obatala got drunk and the task of creation had to be performed by Oduduwa already has some political coloration which is now explicit in the political version of the tradition.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova:
Most Europeans back then, as now, do not consider
Judaism to be the religion of ancient black West
Africans long before the arrival of Christianity
or Islam. African Jews there were in West Africa,
but Judaism as a significant "religion of West Africa?"
Hardly..

To the contrary, almost every credible writing studying
pre-colonial West Africa shows that Judaism was not
significant numerically. See for example the mainstream
history written by an African scholar.

African Religions & Philosophy
By John S. Mbiti

---

West African ethnic groups relate to, or are also part of the Afroasiatic phylum. These groups either relate genetically or linguistically, and sometimes both. How many European ethnic groups relate to these in ethnography and or linguistically? Did John S. Mbiti also touch that in his book?

West African Afroasiatic languages: Guus, Jilbe, Jimi, Jonkor, Ju, Kabali, Koenoem, Kofa, Kubi, Kupto, Lagwan, Langas, Luri, Lushi, Mabire, Maha, Mangas, Maslam, Mbara, Midah, Mser, Ngamo, Nggwahyi, Ngwaba, Pa’a, Polci, Sha, Shua, Siri, Sukur, Tahaggart, Tala, Tetserret, Tule, Tulai, Oubi, Zaar, Zari, Zeem, Zizilivakan, Zanaga, Zialo, Zul, Zumaya.


"John Samuel Mbiti (1931–2019) was a Kenyan-born Christian philosopher and writer. He was an ordained Anglican priest, and is considered "the father of modern African theology".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mbiti

How does John Samuel Mbiti explain the facts that more there's more linguistic Semitic diversity in Africa than there's in the West, which date back from before most of Europe was even in existence as we know it.

Rome Never Forgot The Hebrews Part 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0C0hXWgD0

Rome Never Forgot The Hebrews Part 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_Q2Ros_mPg&t=10s

Rome Never Forgot The Hebrews Part 3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXfMrbcKI80&t=3s

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
West African ethnic groups relate to, or are also part of the Afroasiatic phylum. These groups either relate genetically or linguistically, and sometimes both. How many European ethnic groups relate to these in ethnography and or linguistically? Did John S. Mbiti also touch that in his book?

West African Afroasiatic languages: Guus, Jilbe, Jimi, Jonkor, Ju, Kabali, Koenoem, Kofa, Kubi, Kupto, Lagwan, Langas, Luri, Lushi, Mabire, Maha, Mangas, Maslam, Mbara, Midah, Mser, Ngamo, Nggwahyi, Ngwaba, Pa’a, Polci, Sha, Shua, Siri, Sukur, Tahaggart, Tala, Tetserret, Tule, Tulai, Oubi, Zaar, Zari, Zeem, Zizilivakan, Zanaga, Zialo, Zul, Zumaya.


"John Samuel Mbiti (1931–2019) was a Kenyan-born Christian philosopher and writer. He was an ordained Anglican priest, and is considered "the father of modern African theology".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mbiti

How does John Samuel Mbiti explain the facts that more there's more linguistic Semitic diversity in Africa than there's in the West, which date back from before most of Europe was even in existence as we know it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
West African ethnic groups relate to, or are also part of the Afroasiatic phylum. These groups either relate genetically or linguistically, and sometimes both. How many European ethnic groups relate to these in ethnography and or linguistically? Did John S. Mbiti also touch that in his book?

West African Afroasiatic languages: Guus, Jilbe, Jimi, Jonkor, Ju, Kabali, Koenoem, Kofa, Kubi, Kupto, Lagwan, Langas, Luri, Lushi, Mabire, Maha, Mangas, Maslam, Mbara, Midah, Mser, Ngamo, Nggwahyi, Ngwaba, Pa’a, Polci, Sha, Shua, Siri, Sukur, Tahaggart, Tala, Tetserret, Tule, Tulai, Oubi, Zaar, Zari, Zeem, Zizilivakan, Zanaga, Zialo, Zul, Zumaya.


"John Samuel Mbiti (1931–2019) was a Kenyan-born Christian philosopher and writer. He was an ordained Anglican priest, and is considered "the father of modern African theology".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mbiti

How does John Samuel Mbiti explain the facts that more there's more linguistic Semitic diversity in Africa than there's in the West, which date back from before most of Europe was even in existence as we know it.

---

Which of the above West African Afroasiatic languages are Semitic?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
No twisting Africana to save ego.

The text is explicit and not about Libya
and Numidia but 'Negrosland' south of them.
I simply gave a one line intro to let on
Leo covers other zones. The Sahra and north
ward Africans get more than that line as
seen in the snapshot below.


Every tyro Africana student knows the Sudan
of the Arabic chroniclers is beled es Sudan
aka southern Sahra, Sahel, Savannah from
Atlantic to Lake Tschad to the White and
Blue Niles.


Not going to convolute argue what's plainly written on who the subjects are.

Rage on. I'm addressing ES at large.

I own the damn book since 1983 and know
its full, varied author, content from
publisher, to Leo, to translator in
facsimile of the original English edition.




https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv7iM54UnP0


Folks need to sit chill and examine Leo for the
sake of Leo not merely to prop up a side of anargumemt.

So find it online somewhere and read it.
I got some 35 years on you and have seen
ethnocentric quoters often go farther
than warranted but to lie when the
text is plain? SMH

This is what it's come to?

---

What does this mean to you?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
This is the view of a Maghrebi Muslim who for reasons
I don't remember went Christian and became a patron of
some Euro king for whom he wrote his Description.

Some have claimed he was black. If so, he was just as
biased toward Gnawa as the average Amazigh of his time
and place.

At one and the same time Leo praises the Sudane for
one supreme deity spirituality as if directly given by
deity and a few breaths later ridicules them as weak
minded for being persuaded into Islam.


After it was brought to my attention we were unknowingly
deifying Diop I began turning the critical eye on all
my sources and everything new I've come across since.

Leo, like all the one line to one paragraph quotes,
must be read in the original full context. For Leo
that means reading like ~50 some pages including
geography and peoples in general and to understand
the breakdown of his seven books under one cover.

For me these ancient medieval and early industrial
authors have to run the same interdisciplinary
gauntlet modern writers must muster to be
considered valid or credible to me now and good
to use outside my ethny within an ethny world.

Author's tone and intent is also paramount.


The Lord of Heaven concept is nearly catholic. My
studies lead me to think even Leo's Guinea Gulf
gross idolators recognize Guighimo in one way or
another, most thinking that deity too far off to
worry about and so appeal to more immediate forces.


Personally I've seen nothing about the Sudan ie the
south Sahra/Sahel/Savanna zone being Jewish or
Christian between 600 BCE and 900 CE the way it
went Muslim since then.

'bani Israil' were found here and there in that zone.
How observant of Hokhmei Yisrael even the two
Mauritanian Jewish 'cities' were is moot, though
it is known Tashfin allowed the ones incorporated
into his al Murabitun armed forces to rest on Shabbath.

Check Nahum Schlousz Travels in North Africa for 'crumbs'
from an enthusiast author really writing for the 'in-group'.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@zaharan

How could I forget this? If the Jews weren't literally black (which Parfitt says they literally were on page 4 of his book) then please explain why he writes this on page 11 of his book?

If the Jews being black was only "metaphorical" then why does Parfitt write that black africans were thought to be Jews in a vast extraordinary number of cases?

"In these fragmentary glimpses drawn from a variety of sources, we can see that Jews were considered to be black, to have a numer of African physical qualities, and ultimately to have a good deal of African blood. Similarly, black Africans in the nineteenth century and before, in a vast extraordinary number of cases were thought to be Jews, and indeed to have both Jewish characteristics and to be descended from ancient Israelite stock. From medieval times to the present, Jews have been thought to have 'black blood' in their veins and to have a number of African physical and other characteristics, including an African nose, African proportions, and African skin color."

"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 11 (2013) Harvard University Press

https://books.google.com/books?id=SBtqXClBWTIC
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
observant


Part 5: My ancestor Bilali, and his "Hebrew" descendants in America.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8liQwnVusU


Elijah Shabazz


I would agree with this Afrocentered approach to "hebrew" versus "observant" Jew...

Who exactly is observing what exactly? DON'T @ me... I lived in Midwood for 15 years in the heart of the Haredi and my business partner of 10 years is orthodox so think before I get a long rambling please don't offend my tradition emotional argument. I understandd what OBSERVANT means


Shlomo Sand makes cogent arguments in The Invention of the Jewish People that Jews arose from multiple conversions among various communities in Europe






 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
observant


Part 5: My ancestor Bilali, and his "Hebrew" descendants in America.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8liQwnVusU


Elijah Shabazz


I would agree with this Afrocentered approach to "hebrew" versus "observant" Jew...

Who exactly is observing what exactly? DON'T @ me... I lived in Midwood for 15 years in the heart of the Haredi and my business partner of 10 years is orthodox so think before I get a long rambling please don't offend my tradition emotional argument. I understandd what OBSERVANT means


Shlomo Sand makes cogent arguments in The Invention of the Jewish People that Jews arose from multiple conversions among various communities in Europe

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Incredible. Afrocentric blk wmn knows more
due to 15 yr acquaintance with a yte Ash
than a blk Seph living Jewish day in and
day out worshipped sat and ate with
Moroccan, Yemenite, Ethiopian, Indian,
Bukharan, and Mountain Jews.


Don't worry I have no further comments for
a non-Jew who knows more about Hokhmei
Yisrael than I do.

So no reply to don't say nothing to me I know
about yours better than you do insincere
questionings and mistaken notions of what
a Hebrew is vs what an Israelite is or
the various levels of observance.

If a Yoruba were an ES member you'd listen
to him as authoritative. But me here and
being a Jew? Hell, why listen to my blk
asz? The white Ash who you don't believe
is Israel? You prefer that to what I can
teach you and I've taught orthodox Ash
Judaism from my observant platform,
ordered and conducted Ash ritual
serving as gabbai to a shul in Chelsea
for years.


Think what you will. It has no effect on
Israel. We will be what we are in the face
of all misinformers.


Now shoo go accept Stacy Dash Larry Elder and them
and the ytes who pay them as factual about your
people rather than legitimate ADOS voices down
in the trenches.

But should any want to learn what a born and
learned Jew who is a blk of SenegalMauritania
antecedence can teach...


Like SE Africa's Lemba JEWS have the highest
frequency of the Cohen Modal Haplotype and
why certain clans have super hi freq and
others have midling while most have lo
to no such markers.

I don't care for Ashkenazi bashing for its own sake.
All Jews share genetics with their hosts. How
could they not when even the Tanakh records
Jews lying down with every people they could?
You think American BHI have genomics solely
traceable to the ancient Levant. Hah!

---

quote:

---

Incredible. Afrocentric blk wmn knows more
due to 15 yr acquaintance with a yte Ash
than a blk Seph living Jewish day in and
day out worshipped sat and ate with
Moroccan, Yemenite, Ethiopian, Indian,
Bukharan, and Mountain Jews.

---

quote:

---

Ethiopian Jews, Once Hailed, Now Cast Aside
By JEWISH WEEK EDITORS
July 31, 2019, 10:39 am

---

quote:

---

Israeli rabbi under fire for calling black people 'monkeys ...abcnews.go.com › International › story
Mar 22, 2018 — Israeli Sephardi Chief Rabbi, Yitzhak Yosef, during a visit to the Heichal Shlomo Center in Jerusalem in this May 26, 2014 file photo. TEL AVIV, ...

---

quote:

---

YES, WE'RE RACISTS. WE BELIEVE IN RACISM'
Embracing racism, rabbis at pre-army yeshiva laud Hitler, urge enslaving Arabs
Recordings show instructors at settlement academy openly promoting Jewish supremacy; principal says Arabs want to live under Israeli occupation due to their genetic inferiority
By TAMAR PILEGGI
30 April 2019, 10:17 am 29

---

quote:

---

I converted to Judaism because I fell in love with Judaism. I also naively believed that once I converted to Judaism, I was Jewish and would be treated equally as a member by others in the Jewish community. The reality, however, is the opposite, and I regularly find myself confronted by Jews who benefit from white privilege and to whom I have to explain my existence. " target="_blank">https://forward.com/opinion/448654/im-a-black-jew-i-have-never-been-in-a-jewish-space-where-my-jewish/[/QUOTE]

quote:

---

Cries of ‘Black Lives Matter’ in Israel after officer fatally shoots unarmed young man of Ethiopian origin

---

quote:

---

Chief Rabbis Insist That Ethiopian Jews Must Undergo Ritual Immersion
July 18, 1985
SEE ORIGINAL DAILY BULLETIN FROM THIS DATE
Israel’s two chief rabbis declared today that they would not yield an inch in their demands that Jewish immigrants from Ethiopia undergo ritual immersion, a religious conversion rite.

At a packed press conference at Chief Rabbinate headquarters here, Mordechai Eliahu and Avraham Shapiro, the Sephardic and Ashkenazic chief rabbis, respectively, insisted that halacha was immutable and inviolable. The Ethiopian newcomers must submit to immersion because it is a halachic requirement, they said.

---

Israeli Rabbi Uses Ethiopians, Sudanese Infants for Circumcision Training, Report Shows
The investigation by Israel's new broadcaster captured mentor, Rabbi Eliyahu Asulin, saying on camera that the poorer strata of the population are 'cannon fodder

BlackLivesMatter #Israel
Do Black Lives Matter In Israel?
241,296 views•May 22, 2015


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS9zdTDB90M

Why Ethiopian Jews Are Building a Movement Against Racism in Israel
597,453 views•Jun 6, 2020

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki-6IK5NCdQ

quote:

---

11 June 2020, 6:38 am Last September, a kindergarten in the southern town of Kiryat Gat was closed down after allegedly racially segregating its students, relegating children of Ethiopian descent to a secondary room with a separate entrance. In a Facebook post that went viral, local resident Sefy Bililin wrote that she brought her 3-year-old daughter Pri-el for her first day of kindergarten and was shocked to find herself directed to a classroom that was filled exclusively with Ethiopian Israeli youngsters.

---

https://www.timesofisrael.com/as-world-roils-ethiopian-born-minister-leads-wake-up-call-on-racism-in-israel/



Family members and supporters attend a ceremony in memory of 19-year-old Ethiopian-Israeli, Solomon Tekah who was shot and killed by an off-duty police officer on in Kiryat Haim, July 10, 2019. Photo by Flash90

quote:

---

“The violence [in the US] is also traumatic for us,” said Shula Mola, former chairperson of the Association for Ethiopian Jews.

“It feels like it’s against us. It’s a sad story. We tried for years to be like everyone and enter into society and it was everyone’s dream. It’s hard when things like this happen because of color… The situation isn’t so different [in the two countries]. Violence is violence and racism is racism and when a white person has power to kill someone black it’s the same, it doesn’t make a difference here or there.”

---

the Armana Letters mention no, Abraham, Issac or Joseph... Dudu yes.. but Joseph or King David...
Archeology at Megiddo... plenty of Egyptian artifacts cartouches with Rameses III yes.. Abraham Issac or Joseph.. Nah No archaeological evidence for the Exodus has been found...Yet... the oldest proto hebraic writing is in Upper Egypt, Shashu of Yahu... on a stele in the Sudan.. the oldest written form of Yahweh is in Egyptian papyri..Merenptah Stele if not a purposeful deliberate mistranslation mentions "ysir"
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Israeli series exposes raw wounds from ethnic Jewish divide

JERUSALEM (AP) — An electrifying new documentary series on the problematic integration of Middle Eastern Jews by Israel’s European founders in the 1950s has reopened old wounds of an ethnic divide within Judaism ahead of the country’s 70th anniversary festivities.

While Israel is marking the anniversary by highlighting its prosperity and successes, the country is still wrestling with divisions — and not only between Jews and Arabs. For Zionists who view the Jews as a people no less than a religion, the intra-Jewish rift is especially painful.

“The Ancestral Sin” has ignited outrage and disbelief by arguing that the immigrants were systematically marginalized by seemingly bigoted bureaucrats. The controversy has exposed just how raw sentiments are about the history of relations between Mizrahi Jews, from the Middle East and North Africa, and those from Europe, known as Ashkenazim.

“This was a state that directed their fate without including them at all, while deceiving them and imposing its policies on them,” said David Deri, the director. “To this day, society hasn’t really dealt very deeply with these people and places.”

Arriving from Arabic-speaking countries in the Middle East and North Africa after Israel’s establishment in 1948, many Mizrahi immigrants were sent to shantytown transit camps and largely sidelined by the country’s European leaders. They have long complained of discrimination by the European-descended elite that traditionally dominated the government, military and economy.

They eventually found their political savior in the Likud Party’s Menachem Begin — even though he was of Polish Jewish descent.

The longtime opposition leader cultivated an outsiders’ alliance that appealed to their sense of deprivation, and with massive Mizrahi backing he swept to power in 1977 to shatter nearly 30 years of Labor rule. The community’s loyalty to Likud has remained steadfast.

Tensions have diminished over time. Marriages between Mizrahi and Ashkenazi Jews are common, and Jews of Mizrahi descent have risen to the highest echelons of the government, military, judiciary and entertainment business.

But gaps remain. There has never been a Mizrahi prime minister, for example. Mizrahim far outnumber Ashkenazim in prison, and are far outnumbered in academia. Ashkenazi men earn more than Mizrahim, according to the Adva Center, a think-tank, although less so than in the past.

The series has ramped up an internal Mizrahi debate over how to address past grievances. While many Mizrahim feel their narrative has been shut out, others willingly distanced themselves from their Middle Eastern roots upon arrival. Those efforts often morphed into anti-Arab sentiment and support for the Likud’s hard-line toward the Palestinians.

“The Ancestral Sin” begins in Yeruham, a working-class town in Israel’s periphery where Deri’s family and thousands of others were sent when it was little more than an expanse of sand dotted with caravans. Deri’s aging parents, who came from Morocco, tearfully explain how their pleas to immigration officials to be settled near Israel’s main cities fell on deaf ears.

New immigrants were dispatched to remote towns to help secure Israel’s borders in the volatile years after the state’s creation, but the film contends that it was mainly Mizrahim who bore the burden.

The series leans on transcripts from meetings of the Jewish Agency — the country’s main immigration facilitator — as well as officials’ correspondence and personal diaries. It includes interviews with academics, North African immigrants and a bureaucrat from the time.

Drawing on obscure documents tucked away in Jerusalem’s Central Zionist Archives, the series presents facts that are mostly known to scholars but which Deri said are absent from the public discourse and history textbooks.

The documents show that those who put up a fight were threatened, either with being denied food or having their children taken away. European immigrants, in contrast, appear to have been treated more leniently and often ended up in or near Israeli cities.

“I was shocked,” Margalit Tzan’ani, an Israeli singer of Yemeni descent, told Army Radio. “We were taught about the titans of Zionism, people who have streets named after them who are, forgive me, racists.”

The documents, read aloud by veteran broadcaster Yaron London, an Ashkenazi, are peppered with inflammatory language that the series’ creators say points to racist tendencies among Israel’s founding elite.

“How can the future of a nation be built on such human ruins?” Chaim Sheba, a senior health official who would later have a major hospital named after him, is quoted as saying. Other officials discuss the “primitive” new immigrants and question their intelligence level.

Since it aired last month, the series has been a frequent topic on TV and radio talk shows, and has been shown at special screenings for officials and military brass. Even Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has chimed in, promising to expand access to the documents brought to light in the series.

These documents will never see the light of day


Trailer for the movie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA2q9yyLlX4

quote:

---

Newly released minutes of meetings clearly demonstrate racism, discrimination, arrogance and contempt for eastern Jews, who were dismissed as primitives, fools and idiots. Israeli officials wanted to prime them to become servants and workers. They were housed in barracks and then in public housing, rather than private properties, to restrict their freedom of movement, while immigrants from Eastern Europe were treated in a civilized manner, settled in central locations in housing that they were entitled to sell.

It is worth mentioning that those who perpetrated these acts against eastern Jews were aware of what they were doing, and were later recognized for their actions; hospitals, streets and public facilities were named after them, and they received prizes.

---

quote:

---

---

Even worse, the eastern Jews who were oppressed by the Zionist movement and the state exercised the very same methods - even the more ghastly ones - and were at the forefront of persecuting Palestinians in all locations , especially during Israel’s military rule and ongoing occupation.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
The ashkenazim are descendants of converts anyway
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
the idea that someone can be considered to be part of a religion due to their biological ancestry is stupid
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
For anyone wondering the Jewish idea of
who and what they say about themselves.
You must understand `Am Yisra'el are a people not a religion.

Ancient Hebrew has no word religion. Level of observance
to Torah Law has nothing to do with if a person
traces maternal ancestry to Israel Judah or else
nationalized (converted).

Believe me you have no idea unless living
amongst traditional Israels from south or
east of the Mediterranean where some
Muslims are bani Israil but not Yahudi.

Jews are a people and nationality birthed
from a social revolt into a new tribal
confederation. Like all tribes, they
had modes of spirituality and deity
of their own. Israel/Judah did not
go around missionizing a religion.
They accepted offerings from the
nations recognizing to certain
extent that the Miqdash be a
house of prayer for all.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
the idea that someone can be considered to be part of a religion due to their biological ancestry is stupid

---

Jew/Israelite is a bloodline, just like Hebrew. The modern jewish people have turned the customs and practices of the Jew/Israelite bloodline into a religion.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Neither Cararite, Samaratin nor the Old testament determine "jewishness" on Maternal lineage.

it is a Paternal lineage that matters in the Pentateuch and for the Priesthood.

quote:

---

Israel/Judah did not
go around missionizing a religion.

---

Israeli Professor Sholomo Sand says different. and I quote.. Judaism under the Macabbees was the first proselytizing Abramhamic religion and did forced conversions. This lead to the Herodian kingdom.

quote:

---

Herod –whose father's family were Idumean Arabs forcibly converted to Judaism by John Hyrcanus (c. 134-104 BCE)

---

Many Greeks where converted


Shlomo points out several Jewish Nations that where converted. (en masse)

An Iraqi Jewish nation ( sorry could not catch the name is accent is difficult) but anyoe can watch is video lecture or read his book
Himiyar Yemenite Kingdom under Dhu Nuwas
Queen Kahina Judaized Zanata Berbers
Khazaria
Queen Yodit. Sudan
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Yes, according to Torah and the Tanakh, the lineage of any person is determined paternally through the father:

NUMBERS 1:18

"18 And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls."

EZRA 2:59

"59 And these were they which went up from Telmelah, Telharsa, Cherub, Addan, and Immer: but they could not shew their father's house, and their seed, whether they were of Israel:"
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
the idea that someone can be considered to be part of a religion due to their biological ancestry is stupid

---

Jew/Israelite is a bloodline, just like Hebrew. The modern jewish people have turned the customs and practices of the Jew/Israelite bloodline into a religion.

---

Torah and the Tanakh are religion

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Yes, according to Torah and the Tanakh, the lineage of any person is determined paternally through the father:

NUMBERS 1:18

---

And here you verify it the religious lineage

- it is different from the actual biological lineage of a people that is both paternal and maternal

and in terms of bloodline there is no way to prove one's paternal or maternal bloodline goes back to the Israelites
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
From an ESR post,
Ssephanyah quote is duscussed on ES but w/o the Hebrew.

quote:

---

fact: West African exemplified genomes in
Hebrews are older than in other peoples of
Levantine antecedents. One can not go assume
because a W Afr genome was there it was the
entire Hebrew genome.

Everyone knows the SE Euro converts by Persian Jews
simply as Jews. These convert's offspring are considered
just Jews, never called White Jews, nor their provable
conversion even acknowledged.

R' Y*hudah haLewi, a Sephardi Tahor, wrote
about it 900 years ago in his book haKuzari.

In Hokhmath Yisra'el Messora Qaballa (the
received tradition of national Judaism) a
born Jew's father determines their tribe
but only if the mother is of Jewish descent.

, מֵעֵבֶר,לְנַהֲרֵי-כוּשׁ-- עֲתָרַי
From beyond the Rivers of Kush -- My supplicants

,בַּת-פּוּצַי
My daughter in Diaspora

.יוֹבִלוּן, מִנְחָתִי
shall they bring, as My portion.

The Book of Zephaniah 3:10
by the prophet צְפַנְיָה בֶּן-כּוּשִׁי __Ss*phan*yah ben-Kushi__

From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia shall they bring My suppliants,
even the daughter of My dispersed, as Mine offering.

Here the primary document author, himself a Hebrew prophet,
calls Israel scattered through Africa his deity's very own
daughter ie the Jewish mother concept in N"K.

From Cabo Verde to Manipur and
from the Waters of Merom to Zimbabwe & Madagascar

---

.

Torah Law of matrilineal descent;

quote:

---

Debariym 7:3-4


וְלֹא תִתְחַתֵּן, בָּם neither shalt thou make marriages with them:
בִּתְּךָ לֹא-תִתֵּן לִבְנוֹ thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son,
וּבִתּוֹ לֹא-תִקַּח לִבְנֶךָ nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.


כִּי-יָסִיר אֶת-בִּנְךָ מֵאַחֲרַי For he will turn away thy son from following Me,
וְעָבְדוּ אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים that they may serve other gods;
וְחָרָה אַף-יְהוָה בָּכֶם so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you,
וְהִשְׁמִידְךָ מַהֵר and He will destroy thee quickly.

---

.

quote:

---

how do we know that the issue takes her status [if of a freeborn] Gentile woman?
— Scripture saith, neither shalt thou make marriages with them.

How do we know that her issue bears her status?
— R.Johanan said on the authority of R. Simeon b. Yohai,
Because Scripture saith, For he will turn away thy son from following me:
thy son by an Israelite woman is called thy son,
but thy son by a heathen is not called thy son.

Rabina said:
This proves that thy daughter's son by a heathen is called thy son


=-=-=


from where do we derive that her offspring is like her?

א"ר יוחנן משום ר"ש בן יוחי
דאמר קרא (דברים ז, ד) כי יסיר את בנך מאחרי
בנך הבא מישראלית קרוי בנך ואין
בנך הבא מן העובדת כוכבים קרוי בנך אלא בנה

Rabbi Yoḥanan says in the name of Rabbi Shimon ben Yoḥai:

As the verse (Deuteronomy 7:3–4) states with regard to the same issue:
“Your daughter you shall not give to his son…for he will turn away your son from following Me” .
Since the verse is concerned that after one’s daughter marries a gentile, the father will lead his children away from the service of God, this indicates that

your son, i.e., your grandson, from a Jewish woman is called “your son” by the Torah,

but your son from a gentile woman is not called your son, but her son.


אמר רבינא ש"מ
בן בתך
הבא מן העובד כוכבים
קרוי בנך

Ravina said: Learn from it that
the son of your daughter,
born to a gentile,
is called your son in all regards.

---

.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
the idea that someone can be considered to be part of a religion due to their biological ancestry is stupid

---

Jew/Israelite is a bloodline, just like Hebrew. The modern jewish people have turned the customs and practices of the Jew/Israelite bloodline into a religion.

---

Torah and the Tanakh are religion

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Yes, according to Torah and the Tanakh, the lineage of any person is determined paternally through the father:

NUMBERS 1:18

---

And here you verify it the religious lineage

- it is different from the actual biological lineage of a people that is both paternal and maternal

and in terms of bloodline there is no way to prove one's paternal or maternal bloodline goes back to the Israelites

---

The Torah and Tanakh are not religion. They are records of the laws, customs and history of the ancient Israelites. They also include prophecy, which is how the children of Israel are accurately identified.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
The Torah and Tanakh are not religion. They are records of the laws, customs and history of the ancient Israelites. They also include prophecy, which is how the children of Israel are accurately identified.

---

yes right, the Qu'ran, The New Testament, none of it is religion. Religion doesn't really exist
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Ancient Hebrew has no word religion.

There is tribal law from the Teaching.

One observes Law or does not observe it
on a sliding scale of 613 down to zero.

Religion is voluntary
Birth ethnicity is not
sticks with you regardless
A number of Muslims are bani Israil.
In Xian Europe 'New Christians' were
stigmatized marrano ie still thought
of as Jewish.


Talk religion at will
we know ourselves as
`Am Yisra'el / b*nei Yisra'el
People of Israel / Children of Israel

People and children are not religion.
Heaven / Soul salvation is not the aim.
All Jews have a share in the World to Come.
Social conduct regulated by Torah law is the aim.
Does not actively seek converts.
Accepts them to prevent intermarriage
or due to proven spiritual conviction.
Many rabbis will not talk conversion
unless two other rabbis can vouch the
candidate had been in touch with them.
Two of the greatest rabbis were descended from Sennacherib.
All Jews have a right to citizenship
in the known ancestral homeland.


Qu'ran is religion.
Don't know enough Arabic
to say if the word religion
or law (diyn) they use.
Muslim is no ethnic group
claiming shared descent
naturally or by adoption.
Started by alleged tribal kinsmen
it to has sets of laws (sharia).
Actively seeks converts
to the point of force.
No Muslim entitled citizenship
nationality or single homeland.

Greek Scripture is religion
Christianity is explicit in
removing tribal lineage from Israelite worship.
Well, it actually never had Israelite worship.
No laws. Only belief in Jesus is necessary.
Actively seeks converts.
No ethnic/national homeland etc.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Ancient Hebrew has no word religion.

---

And you conclude from this religion does not exist?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
No you concluded religion does not exist.

=-=-=

In the Black American community
many many speak not of religion.
Those I know of practices derived
from Guinea to Angola also
declare they have no religion
but a way of life/living.


Ppl who come from tribes have no
sense of put it on for services
forget about it til next week
religion that affects absolutely
nothing in their day to day
lifestyle re diet, dress, gender
roles, etc.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Ancient Hebrew has no word religion.

---

And you conclude from this religion does not exist?

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
"Thou shalt have no other gods before Me"

______________________

the having of gods is what religion is
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
The Torah is not merely a book of laws. It is a book which includes stories and supernatural events
and belief in God
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
And a wink is as good as a nod to a blind horse
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Who said otherwise?

But no. Torah nowhere asks Israel or anyone to believe there is God (whatever you mean by God).

Israel continues a mutually binding deal they say
their deity offered their alleged ancestors over
a span of three generations.

On top of that, Israel claims the whole people
assembled and ratified a contract with a deity
and appointed one of their number to receive the
details of the 'covenant' from that deity.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
The Torah is not merely a book of laws. It is a book which includes stories and supernatural events
and belief in God

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
one felt approved of whether on one day their father gave them a wink or a nod
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
one felt approved of whether on one day their father gave them a wink or a nod

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Israel claims the whole people
assembled and ratified a contract with a deity
and appointed one of their number to receive the
details of the 'covenant' from that deity.

---

yes, contracts with deities are religion
and the description of creation by a deity by Jews and Christians is virtually the same text
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
No they are nowhere near the same text
if so Christians copied the Jews

Neither Christianity nor Islam
can stand without Hebrew Scripture.

Judaism can stand w/o either.
Hebrew Scripture incorporates AE writings.


=-=

In theLioness world philosophy = religion too.

I do not have a religion
I observe Jewish Law

For those who can only understand YouTubes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwctwaxRNc8
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

Matrilineality in Judaism or matrilineal descent in Judaism is the tracing of Jewish descent through the maternal line. Jewish communities have practiced matrilineal descent from at least early Tannaitic (c. 10-70 CE) times to Modern times.[1] The origins and date-of-origin of matrilineal descent in Judaism are uncertain. Orthodox Jews, who believe that matrilineality and matriarchy within Judaism are related to the metaphysical concept of the Jewish soul,[2] maintain that matrilineal descent is an oral law from at least the time of the covenant at Sinai (c. 1310 BCE) .[3] Conservative Jewish Theologian Rabbi Louis Jacobs suggests that the marriage practices of the Jewish community were re-stated as a law of matrilineal descent in the early Tannaitic Period (c. 10-70 CE).

---

Now we know that could not have happened in 1310
cause the Exodus as stated could not have happened during that Middle Kingdom period because Sinai and Canaan where all part of Greater Egypt...so the 10-70- is probably the correct period that practice began..
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Jewish matrilineal descent is at least 2600 years old.

If king Josiah fabricated a "scroll of the law"
(Deuteronomy) to sanctify his governmental policy,
practices in that scroll must be those he wanted in
place.


The Sinai 'event' which is not historical
is dated to the Hebrew year 2448 (1313 BCE).

Historically speaking 1313 BCE falls in the
New Kingdom 18th Dynasty reign of Haremheb.
Horemheb is followed by Dyn 19 and Ramesses I.


Merneptah c.1219 BCE commissioned a stele
that boasts exterminating a people ysrỉꜣr
Israel per archaeologist consensus w/dissenters.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

n the time of the Mishna (250 BCE to 200 CE) there were many Greek and Roman converts to Judaism. Shmaya and Avtalyon, the teachers of Hillel, were converts.

quote:

---

Rabi Akiva was descended from a father who was a convert.

---

In fact his "pedigree" in the Talmud traces itself back to Sisera, the Canaanite general slain by Yael in Devorah the prophetess' war against Yavin, the Canaanite king of Chatzor. Rabi Meir was descended from the Roman emperor Nero and Onkelos, the great translator of the Bible from Hebrew into Aramaic was also descended from the Roman royal famil y. Other great rabbis of the Mishna are mentioned as being descended from converts. On the other hand, the Idumeans, who were forced into conversion to Judaism by the Hasmonean kings, produced Antipater and Herod - cruel and vicious people who served Rome well and wholeheartedly in subjugating the Jewish land and people to Roman rule. The Talmud also records that a certain Yehuda ben Gerim - descended from converts - and was in reality a Roman spy and an informer against his rabbinic colleagues. In the Bible, we find that King David felt that King Saul was betrayed by an Amalekite convert. Thus a spirit of ambivalence is always present when dealing with the question of conversions and converts. The Torah bids the Jew to be kind and welcoming to converts - in fact, it does so thirty-six times, more than any other commandment in the Torah. Thus, the Torah places a great burden on the Jew as well as on the non-Jew when it comes to conversion issues. Hence the traditional circumspection in the matter.

In the Middle Ages, some of the renowned scholars of the Tosafists (twelfth to fourteenth century German, French and English Torah scholars) were converts or descended from converts. The Church soon made conversion to Judaism a capital offense, punishable with burning at the stake.

---

 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Just a reminder that people are being harmed over mythology and an African concept of "god" that has been appropriated or "adopted" by converted Europeans... and claiming a land that they where never exiled from..

Shlomo Sand Invention of the Jewish People, and Invention of the "Land of Israel"




A group of five Palestinian children ages 8 to 13 were gathering wild vegetable near the illegal Jewish settlement of Havat Maon when they were arrested by Israeli troops. (Photo: Nasser Nawaj'ah/B'Tselem/Twitter)

quote:

---

The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem this week published video footage of the five children, ages 8 to 13, being dragged off and detained by heavily armed Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers near the Israeli settler colony of Havat Maon in the southern Hebron Hills.

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
No they are nowhere near the same text
if so Christians copied the Jews

Neither Christianity nor Islam
can stand without Hebrew Scripture.

Judaism can stand w/o either.
Hebrew Scripture incorporates AE writings.

---

Are you saying the Old Testament is not virtually the same as the Torah?
the Christians are former Jews who added a second book then became Christians

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

In theLioness world philosophy = religion too.

I do not have a religion
I observe Jewish Law

For those who can only understand YouTubes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwctwaxRNc8

---

So are you purporting Judaism is a philosophy

or a book of laws which describes the actions of a deity, and that this laws came form a deity rather than the reasoning of human beings?
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Ashkenazi Jewish women descended mostly from Italian converts , new study asserts
Jon Entine | October 8, 201

quote:

---

A groundbreaking paper published in 2000 by Harry Ostrer, a professor of genetics at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine, and University of Arizona geneticist Michael Hammer showed that most modern Jews are descended on their male side from a core population of approximately 20,000 Jews who migrated from Italy over the first millennium and eventually settled in Eastern Europe.

“All European [Ashkenazi] Jews seem connected on the order of fourth or fifth cousins,” Ostrer has said.

Known as the so-called “Rhineland hypothesis,” the consensus research holds that most Ashkenazi Jews, as well as many Jews tracing their lineage to Italy, North Africa, Iraq, Iran, Kurdish regions and Yemen, share common paternal haplotypes also found among many Arabs from Palestine, Lebanon and Syria. Only a small percentage of the Y-DNA of Ashkenazi Jews—less than 25 percent—originated outside of the Near East, presumably as converts.

---

quote:

---

Richards and his team claim that maternal lineages did not originate in the Near or Middle East or the Khazarian Caucasus but rather, for the most part, within Mediterranean Europe. Another twist in the findings: Jewish women may have been assimilated in Europe as far back as 2,000 years ago—earlier than most other studies have projected. The researchers believe the DNA could trace back to the early Roman Empire, when as much as 10 percent of the population practiced Judaism, many of them converts. Overall, they claim, at least 80 percent of Ashkenazi maternal ancestry comes from women indigenous to Europe while 8 percent originated in the Near East, with the rest uncertain.

---

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Esau or Edom is considered by Israel as its evil twin.
TN"K says Israel is to leave Edom alone.
Edom was forcefully converted by Judea
only because of this twin brother status
when conquered and incorporated into Judea.

Judea never forcefully converted any other
people and per their scripture were forbidden
to engage Edom. Herodian 'dynasty' is thought
as divine retribution for messing with Edom.


To say they forcefully converted Greeks is
a self-serving lie and preference of a
hastily read Ashkenazi over an African
blk. That's 'Afrocentric'?

Through Afrikan Eyes it was over 200 years
later that ancient Libyan Jews massacred, not
converted, Greeks precipitating movement west toward Tuat, southwest toward the bend of the
Niger, and south toward Lake Tschad and further.


S'ok. Don't believe me until Simon
(a yte Ashkenazi in this case) Sez.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
What is the Old Testament? No such Hebrew work exists.

Christians are anybody who follows Saul/Paul's version
of Jesus and his spiritual and philosophical notions.

Greek books cannot be Hebrew scriptures.
Xianity's whole premise is displacement of Israel.

The process of canonization is much more complex
than adding a book. Once canon is closed that's
it. Why would Hebrew intelligentsia adopt Greek
books?

People's idea of the Bible is ignorant of what the
Bible is and how it was formed. For instance there
are no lost books of the Bible. Books were selected
to be canonized after lengthy examination. None were
stripped away from an imaginary pre-existing 'Bible'.


Judaism is a complete system of living
not compartmented philosophy or religion
or nutrition or warfare or civics or
family values or finance or ethics or


Hokhmath Yisrael concern isn't god intoxication.
Acting in set approved fashion with humanity and
nature. Authentic Y*haduth (Judaean-ness/Juda-ism)
is found among non-European Jewry and European Jews
who are Haseedim. Iberian Sepharadiym vary. The first
American Reform were the former Spanish&Portuguese of
Charleston though the cong was part of the 7 Sisters.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
No they are nowhere near the same text
if so Christians copied the Jews

Neither Christianity nor Islam
can stand without Hebrew Scripture.

Judaism can stand w/o either.
Hebrew Scripture incorporates AE writings.

---

Are you saying the Old Testament is not virtually the same as the Torah?
the Christians are former Jews who added a second book then became Christians

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

In theLioness world philosophy = religion too.

I do not have a religion
I observe Jewish Law

For those who can only understand YouTubes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwctwaxRNc8

---

So are you purporting Judaism is a philosophy

or a book of laws which describes the actions of a deity, and that this laws came form a deity rather than the reasoning of human beings?

---

 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Esau or Edom is considered by Israel as its evil twin.
TN"K says Israel is to leave Edom alone.
Edom was forcefully converted by Judea
only because of this twin brother status
was it conquered and incorporated into Judea.

Judea never forcefully converted any other
people and per their scripture were forbidden
to engage Edom. Herodian 'dynasty' is thought
as divine retribution for messing with Edom.

---

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Per Jewish law among Sepharade, Mughrebi, Mushreqi,
Mizrahhi, Teimani, and Hodi Jews, all from south or
east of the Mediterranean, "Jewishness" comes from
mother, tribe comes from father.


Ruth was a poor convert of looked down on Moab descent.
Dawiyd traces back to her, a non-Hebrew no different
than other Semitic speaking non-Hebrews. So where's
the surprise in Jews far from the Levant having non-
so-called Semitic haplogroups?

The mothers of Jacob's. Two were 'Lebanese' Rachel
and Leah. What were Zilpah and Bilhah the mothers
of four tribes?

Since excision is no longer practiced of course
more women than men would convert. A grown
man is gonna balk at getting his dork cut.


From an ESR post,
Ssephanyah quote is duscussed on ES but w/o the Hebrew.

quote:

---

fact: West African exemplified genomes in
Hebrews are older than in other peoples of
Levantine antecedents. One can not go assume
because a W Afr genome was there it was the
entire Hebrew genome.

Everyone knows the SE Euro converts by Persian Jews
simply as Jews. These convert's offspring are considered
just Jews, never called White Jews, nor their provable
conversion even acknowledged.

R' Y*hudah haLewi, a Sephardi Tahor, wrote
about it 900 years ago in his book haKuzari.

In Hokhmath Yisra'el Messora Qaballa (the
received tradition of national Judaism) a
born Jew's father determines their tribe
but only if the mother is of Jewish descent.

, מֵעֵבֶר,לְנַהֲרֵי-כוּשׁ-- עֲתָרַי
From beyond the Rivers of Kush -- My supplicants

,בַּת-פּוּצַי
My daughter in Diaspora

.יוֹבִלוּן, מִנְחָתִי
shall they bring, as My portion.

The Book of Zephaniah 3:10
by the prophet צְפַנְיָה בֶּן-כּוּשִׁי __Ss*phan*yah ben-Kushi__

From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia shall they bring My suppliants,
even the daughter of My dispersed, as Mine offering.

Here the primary document author, himself a Hebrew prophet,
calls Israel scattered through Africa his deity's very own
daughter ie the Jewish mother concept in N"K.

From Cabo Verde to Manipur and
from the Waters of Merom to Zimbabwe & Madagascar

---

.

Torah Law of matrilineal descent;

quote:

---

Debariym 7:3-4


וְלֹא תִתְחַתֵּן, בָּם neither shalt thou make marriages with them:
בִּתְּךָ לֹא-תִתֵּן לִבְנוֹ thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son,
וּבִתּוֹ לֹא-תִקַּח לִבְנֶךָ nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.


כִּי-יָסִיר אֶת-בִּנְךָ מֵאַחֲרַי For he will turn away thy son from following Me,
וְעָבְדוּ אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים that they may serve other gods;
וְחָרָה אַף-יְהוָה בָּכֶם so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you,
וְהִשְׁמִידְךָ מַהֵר and He will destroy thee quickly.

---

.

quote:

---

how do we know that the issue takes her status [if of a freeborn] Gentile woman?
— Scripture saith, neither shalt thou make marriages with them.

How do we know that her issue bears her status?
— R.Johanan said on the authority of R. Simeon b. Yohai,
Because Scripture saith, For he will turn away thy son from following me:
thy son by an Israelite woman is called thy son,
but thy son by a heathen is not called thy son.

Rabina said:
This proves that thy daughter's son by a heathen is called thy son


=-=-=


from where do we derive that her offspring is like her?

א"ר יוחנן משום ר"ש בן יוחי
דאמר קרא (דברים ז, ד) כי יסיר את בנך מאחרי
בנך הבא מישראלית קרוי בנך ואין
בנך הבא מן העובדת כוכבים קרוי בנך אלא בנה

Rabbi Yoḥanan says in the name of Rabbi Shimon ben Yoḥai:

As the verse (Deuteronomy 7:3–4) states with regard to the same issue:
“Your daughter you shall not give to his son…for he will turn away your son from following Me” .
Since the verse is concerned that after one’s daughter marries a gentile, the father will lead his children away from the service of God, this indicates that

your son, i.e., your grandson, from a Jewish woman is called “your son” by the Torah,

but your son from a gentile woman is not called your son, but her son.


אמר רבינא ש"מ
בן בתך
הבא מן העובד כוכבים
קרוי בנך

Ravina said: Learn from it that
the son of your daughter,
born to a gentile,
is called your son in all regards.

---

.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
pick a mother or father practicing Judaism or considered to be a Jew or Hebrew.
Now go back 300 years or 500 or 1000.
You will not be able to prove that the ancestor practicing Judaism was not a convert at some point.
Therefore no one can prove biological ancestry that goes back to the Israelites, regardless of what what side you choose to follow, the father or the mother. Nobody can prove their "bloodline" does not lead back to a convert. It's a lost cause
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Bingo


Agreed

Hence the saying all Israel is converts.

I doubt even royalty can honestly accurately
trace uniparentals much more than 300-400 yrs.

Bet you can't guess who's considered Convert #1


Yet, at the same time converts are stigmatized


=-=-=


Hodu are another Jewry I've had the pleasure to
worship, Torah party, and dine with. In fact I
prefer Indian cuisine followed by Yemeni. When
these blx made aliyah and as late as the 1990's
Ashkenazim refused to register their marriages
w/o pedigree check back to Imma Sarah. During
a wheat shortage Bene Israel Hodu were taunted
"Black bread for black Jews". Jose Malcioln,
author of How the Hebrews became Jews served
as president of this factioon of Jews emigrated
to the United States. There are 3 or 4 Jewish
ethnic groups in India. Cemeteries were
segregated black or white. The United States
right now practices burial discrimination
against Africa originated Jews.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
Just a reminder that people are being harmed over mythology and an African concept of "god" that has been appropriated or "adopted" by converted Europeans... and claiming a land that they where never exiled from..

Shlomo Sand Invention of the Jewish People, and Invention of the "Land of Israel"




A group of five Palestinian children ages 8 to 13 were gathering wild vegetable near the illegal Jewish settlement of Havat Maon when they were arrested by Israeli troops. (Photo: Nasser Nawaj'ah/B'Tselem/Twitter)

quote:

---

The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem this week published video footage of the five children, ages 8 to 13, being dragged off and detained by heavily armed Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers near the Israeli settler colony of Havat Maon in the southern Hebron Hills.

---

---

I agree that the modern jewish people have no relation to the land of ancient Israel. So who do you believe the descendants of the ancient Israelites are? Who are they today?
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

I agree that the modern jewish people have no relation to the land of ancient Israel. So who do you believe the descendants of the ancient Israelites are? Who are they today?

---

What I believe (spiritually) and what I can prove (historically) are two different things...

For me it is more important to reorient the biblical story back to the Nile Valley.. What I can tell you is that the Yahwist version of the Pentateuch is African/Egyptian in orientation and that Moses and Aaron and the original Levites where black African and had Egyptian names. And in the Yahwist version it was Miriam who was cursed white ( for a moment) for speaking out about Moses Kushite wife.

I listen to tons of lectures from professors who orient ancient Israel in relation to Syria, Ugarit Mesopotamia etc.. And never look south of the 1st cataract nor do they research African customs and languages to find influences and peoples of the Bible..if and when they do find connections either they are not speaking up, hiding, or ignoring the evidence. Just like the name Yahweh in Egyptian writing. it has been IGNORED for decades written off as a mere coincidence...when in fact if they had studied West African cultures Yahweh and the understanding of this name of or power of GOD comes into full concept and bloom..

So I think that what we can do is continue the work of our ancestral Afrocentric historians and researchers in re centering Africa in the biblical story..

Dana Marniche has done excellent work on where the tribes of Israel went in Arabia/Yemen and are NOW, Dierk Lange, Tudor Parfitt is worth hearing out, Edith Bruder excellent top notch research.., Bernard Leehman is worth entertaining his Nubian hypothesis... especially in the light of current archaeology not being able to confirm much of the hebrew bible as fact...


Beware of the duplicity of the Israeli government and Israeli academia.....They research the past in light of their current political situation. Tons of fake artifacts have been produced and sold to museums as "real" ancient artifacts.. even more artifacts can't be properly dated. and this is not just in Israel but all over the Near East. Academia is aware of this problem... it is a well known secret

The key is to study West African tribes,oral history, mythology. legends, customs and languages... The African middle ages is an understudied period of time... and the connection of West Africa to Nubian Sahelian/Yemen complex going back to pharonic times again understudied and misunderstood.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
For a little levity..





Cepheus is prominently featured in the Perseus legend as the husband of Cassiopeia and father of Princess Andromeda, and whose brother Phineus expected to marry Andromeda. Various sources described his kingdom to be "Aethiopia" or later as the city of Joppa (Jaffa) in Phoenicia ( modern day tel aviv, Israel ) which was named after the elder Cepheus ' wife, Iope, daughter of Aeolus.

Many, again, say that they (jews) were a race of Ethiopian origin, who in the time of king Cepheus ( Kufu ) were driven by fear and hatred of their neighbors to seek a new dwelling-place


https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/tacitus-on-the-jews-110-ce

quote:

---

Ta-Nehisi Coates, Wakanda is located on Lake Victoria, near fellow fictional nations Mohannda, Canaan , Azania, and .

---

 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
And now a day of mourning.. Rest in Power KING

Yaphet Kotto (b. 11/15/1939 – d. 3/15/2021), star of Alien and Live and Let Die, dies at 81




Kotto was born in New York City. His mother was Gladys Marie, an American nurse and U.S. Army officer of Panamanian and West Indian descent. His father was Avraham Kotto (according to his son, originally named Njoki Manga Bell), a businessman from Cameroon who emigrated to the United States in the 1920s.The couple separated when Mr. Kotto was a child, and he was raised by his maternal grandparents. His father was born Jewish and his mother converted to Judaism.


Agent Ryan Goldhar confirmed his passing in an email to AFP. He did not share the cause of death.

“I am still processing his passing, and I know he will be missed,” he said.

Kotto’s debut as a professional actor was in an all-Black stage performance of Shakespeare’s “Othello” in Harlem in 1960.

Kotto drew plaudits for roles as the first Black Bond villain — dictator Dr. Kananga — in 1973’s “Live and Let Die,” and an Emmy nomination for playing real-life Ugandan strongman Idi Amin in the TV movie “Raid on Entebbe,” about the IDF operation in 1976 to rescue dozens of Israelis on a plane hijacked by Palestinian terrorists.
According to the ManishTana website, run by Orthodox rabbi Shais Rishon, Kotto’s father Avraham Kotto immigrated to the US in the 1920s as an observant Jew who could speak Hebrew. Kotto reportedly said in the past that his father’s ancestors were African Jews who originated in the area of modern Israel and migrated through Egypt to Cameroon. He also had said his mother, Gladys Marie, who was an officer in the army, converted to Judaism before marrying his father.

In a widely quoted interview, apparently with the Associated Press in 1994, Kotto described growing up in New York and the anti-Semitism he experienced as a religious Jew wearing a yarmulke headcover.

“It was rough coming up,” Kotto said. “And then going to shul, putting a yarmulke on, having to face people who were primarily Baptists in the Bronx meant that on Fridays, I was in some heavy fistfights.”

In a 2019 interview with the InsideHook website, Kotto talked about how Judaism was a guiding force in his life.

His father, who he said was a crown prince of Cameroon, “instilled Judaism in me.”

“I still open every book I read from the back page to the front,” he said referring to the direction of Hebrew writing from right to left.

“Everything the Jewish religion stands for, from an African’s point of view, he left those things in me,” Kotto said. “If it weren’t for him, I would have probably gone to hatred or violence or drugs or alcohol. I escaped all of those things because of Judaism.”

However, he said he would not pray since “the minute you ask for help, He puts it off. The minute you start begging, that’s where the problems start.”

Kotto said that in the past, when visiting a new city, he would always look for a synagogue “but the rabbis want to get to know you and so forth and so on, and they constantly want you to move to wherever you are. So now I don’t look for a synagogue when I go out of town.”

Had he not been an actor, Kotto speculated, he would probably have been a rabbi and stressed that it was his faith that brought him his success in life.

“I’ve always had that faith. I still have it,” he said and emphasized his belief in the afterworld, which “is very much like this world. You can’t tell which one is different, because they look the same, only one is brighter.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/yaphet-kotto-jewish-actor-who-was-first-black-bond-villain-dies-at-81/




https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/yaphet-kotto-dead-homicide-life-street-live-let-die-alien-actor-was-81-1115082
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Who said otherwise?

But no. Torah nowhere asks Israel or anyone to believe there is God (whatever you mean by God).

Israel continues a mutually binding deal they say
their deity offered their alleged ancestors over
a span of three generations.

On top of that, Israel claims the whole people
assembled and ratified a contract with a deity
and appointed one of their number to receive the
details of the 'covenant' from that deity.

---

You may have to clarify the above for it is seems at odds with
the commonly received and understood Torah on which Judaism rests.
Again and again in the Torah Israel is called to recognize and affirm
the One God. Even the first commandment lays out the case easily-
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me.." If recognition of
God were optional then the first commandment would be null and void-
there would be no basis for God to make His statement or command.

-----------------------------------
Exodus 20:
1And God spoke all these words, saying,

2I am Jehovah thy God, who have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4Thou shalt not make thyself any graven image, or any form of what is in the heavens above, or what is in the earth beneath, or what is in the waters under the earth: 5thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.."
----------------------------------------- ------------------


Likewise Deut 6: 4-10:

Hear, Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah; 5and thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength. 6And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thy heart; 7and thou shalt impress them on thy sons, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thy house, and when thou goest on the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. 8And thou shalt bind them for a sign on thy hand, and they shall be for frontlets between thine eyes. 9And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and upon thy gates.
--------------------------------------------------

It is a clear, uncompromising statement of existence, and obligation
following of those who believe it..


On top of that, Israel claims the whole people
assembled and ratified a contract with a deity
and appointed one of their number to receive the
details of the 'covenant' from that deity.

And a key part of ratifying the covenant is to believe in and on
the Supreme Entity making said contract, who proposes to enter into
a relationship with those he recognizes as believing on Him. Both
parties must exist for any agreement to have force. If God's existence
is optional, then again, like the commandments, there would be no basis
for any covenant.
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
pick a mother or father practicing Judaism or considered to be a Jew or Hebrew.
Now go back 300 years or 500 or 1000.
You will not be able to prove that the ancestor practicing Judaism was not a convert at some point.
Therefore no one can prove biological ancestry that goes back to the Israelites, regardless of what what side you choose to follow, the father or the mother. Nobody can prove their "bloodline" does not lead back to a convert. It's a lost cause

---

OK, so would you say its a matter of BOTH biological ancestry and/or
belief in certain central principles? Can both things operate at the same time?
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
[QUOTE]
For me it is more important to reorient the biblical story back to the Nile Valley.. What I can tell you is that the Yahwist version of the Pentateuch is African/Egyptian in orientation and that Moses and Aaron and the original Levites where black African and had Egyptian names. And in the Yahwist version it was Miriam who was cursed white ( for a moment) for speaking out about Moses Kushite wife.

I listen to tons of lectures from professors who orient ancient Israel in relation to Syria, Ugarit Mesopotamia etc.. And never look south of the 1st cataract nor do they research African customs and languages to find influences and peoples of the Bible..if and when they do find connections either they are not speaking up, hiding, or ignoring the evidence. Just like the name Yahweh in Egyptian writing. it has been IGNORED for decades written off as a mere coincidence...when in fact if they had studied West African cultures Yahweh and the understanding of this name of or power of GOD comes into full concept and bloom..

---

OK, fair enough. How would you respond to those who say that the Yahwist
approach you outline above cannot be true West African religion, for
many West African cultures believe in multiple deities, whereas the Yahwist/Moses
perspective asserts that there is but one true God, and brooks no parallel
gods, goddesses, etc, or interference from various spirit beings from
beyond who possess living humans, or are worshiped as deities,
by said living humans.

Others argue that a Yahwist perspective is contradictory as
far as ancient Egyptian religion, for the Egyptians worshiped
many deities whereas the perspective of Moses rejects any worship
of the sun, moon, natural phenomena etc etc. Indeed, the pharaoh who
tried to establish monotheism to Egypt was branded as a heretic by the majority
of the priestly and political establishment, and his works overthrown and
erased, and his name excised from official lists of rulers. Kemet then went
back to its traditions of multiple deities and divine entities. Who
is the keeper of the "true" faith then, the accused "heretic," or the
traditionalists?


How are these clashing perspectives to be reconciled? All can't
be true at the same time.

And you are right that certain professors see parallels between Syriac,
Ugarit and Mesopotamia concepts that they hold to be the source of
various Egyptian beliefs. What method can be used to ascertain that
the parallels they see are false or distorted, and that the only true
faith is a Yahwist variant argued for Egypt?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Belief in deity is assumed.
Israel has a deity.
All the peoples Israel encounters have deities.


The First Utterance is [see on https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/36369?lang=en]

per Exodus 20:2
(2) I am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

per Deuteronomy 5:6
(6) I am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.


Clearly nothing here about the possibility there is
no deity or that agnostics or atheist take on belief
or that the following Utterances are meant for any
but `Am Yisra'el = b*nei Yisra'el + ha-Ereb Rab.

A newborn people are being told the voice addressing them
is their own old family-ar deity claiming responsibility
for the peoples' exode and freedom.


Is this clear or need I expand more from the point of view
of a Jew who's 'read' morning, afternoon/evening, night
prayers for weekday, Shabbath, and Yom Tob more than
43,800 times with Torah and haftara over 480 times.
I could slip up on a fact before looking it up, maybe,
but I offer authentic Y*haduth, that is, Messora Qaballa
of Hokhmath Yisrael from Hokhmei Yisrael here, no different
than to AfrAm, Sepharade, and dathi to lo dathi Ashkenazim
in various Jewish Yahoogroups 21 yrs ago. There are great
online tools now undreamed of back then, Mechon Mamre
and Sefaria for instance.


I deny no non-Jew their 'right' to invent an idea
of Jews and Judaism as fits their worldview but it
is meaningless and ineffectual in regards to what
the traditional practicing heirs of an at least 2400
year old cultural civilization and peoplehood holds
about itself. Those who want to teach me 'Judaism'
have done the prayer and TorahwHaftara readings
how many times?

If that's what anyone here doesn't want to hear don't address me.
I will address what I see as mis and disinformation here just as
some of you do the same for Africana at various forums on the web.


=-=-=

EDIT
The 2nd-note of the Sh*ma` is love, w*ehab*tha.
Love the Eternal your El with heart soul and strength.
The Sh*ma` is a rallying cry from the time of
Ya`aqob/Yisra'el's nuclear family affirming
the One and Only Uniqueness of the Eternal
recited 3 times a day minimum and upon the
approach of one's final outgoing breath.
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
Yes, which is why I say above that it need clarification for
the statements Moses writes not only assumes the existence of
the deity but commands that recognition in His followers.

A people are being told the voice addressing them is
their own old familiar deity claiming responsibility
for the peoples' exode and freedom.

Yes, and it would be imperative that they recognize the existence of
that deity to the exclusion of all other claimants. Hence the first commandment:
"Thou shalt have no gods before me." To enter into a covenant both
parties have to recognize the existence of the other.

I agree -indeed it is an old tradition going back 2400 years. One of the
key things holding it together is a recognition of the existence of one true God.
But its good to bring it to bear, and hopefully the younger set are taking
on some things in depth. As you move around do you see hopeful evidence
of an up-and-coming young crop among black Jews able to carry things forward
once the OG's are gone?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
OK

Um, 'no el up in my face' is the 2nd Utterance[*].
Please link and scroll the Sefaria reference in prev post.
Commentary and opinions of the ancient rabbis on them all there.

Y*haduth holds two writings down of the Utterances.
They vary. You are not using the subjects' own
numbering system but some other unfamiliar to me.


I'd say One and Only Eternally Existing 'god'
rather than "one true God" but would be
foolish to argue, in even the monolatry
stage, that Israel officially thought
there were 'many false gods'. N"K is
full of Israel commonly practicing
polytheism, owning idols, even cult
prostitution. Israel monotheism
was a long uphill climb.
To the chagrin of both Rabbanites and
Karaites, many common Israel took TN"K
anthropomorphisms literally as late as 900 CE.


As always and ever on ES by its members;
precision, clarity, and expansion are key
to understanding a fellow member in a
calm ethnocentric-less discussion.


18th century Srnan's Jodensvanna saw the first independent
West African Jews in Diaspora synagogue in the Americas.
Suriname also birthed the AfricanJewish language Djo Tongo.

We are no militant blk nationalist anti-yte cult.
Ours is part of the ongoing cultural civilization.
We are just continuing our ancestral paths
whether African, black, or whatever. Jews
are One People a vast confederation of
tribes peoples and nationalities worldwide. Recall
recent posting of the St Thomas Israelite rabbi of
a Filipino congregation. We all interact with each
other, regardless the 'dumb shih' racists within
our Nation.

`Am Yisra'el endures m*dor l*dor (generation to generation).
We have institutions educating our youth and preparing rabbis
and non-clergy learned in the tradition. This is true of all
communities of blx I know of like the 102 year old Rab Ford
(zs"l) and Rab Matthew (zs"l) Israelites to the 2700 year old
Beta Israel.


Rabbi Capers Funnye, right, with Ethiopian elder Semu Kebede at Congregation Beth Elohim,
August 17, 2019. (Courtesy of blackjews.org)

Oh, I forgot
The younger and the youth allowed at my Ribbi's Table
a generation and a half ago all have what I gave them
and two of them too modest and respectful to admit it
have outstripped me in Hokhmah and even manifest what
I theorized regarding the Return of Scattered Israel.

An important lesson taught by example from the Great
Legislator Moshe Rabbeynu: groom successors, place
them in your seat while you still live, never
correct them in the face of the congregation who
must learn to respect them as they did you for an
orderly transition/transmission from generation to
generation.


=-=-=


[*]
Second Utterance

per Exodus 20:3-6
(3) Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. (4) Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; (5) thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; (6) and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.

per Deuteronomy 5:7-10
(7) Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. (8) Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, even any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. (9) Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate Me, (10) and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova:
Yes, which is why I say above that it need clarification for
the statements Moses writes not only assumes the existence of
the deity but commands that recognition in His followers.


the first commandment:
"Thou shalt have no gods before me." To enter into a covenant both
parties have to recognize the existence of the other.

-indeed it is an old tradition going back 2400 years. One of the
key things holding it together is a recognition of the existence of one true God.

As you move around do you see hopeful evidence
of an up-and-coming young crop among black Jews able to carry things forward
once the OG's are gone?

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
[QB] Belief in deity is assumed.
Israel has a deity.
All the peoples Israel encounters have deities.


The First Utterance is [see on https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/36369?lang=en]

per Exodus 20:2
(2) I am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

per Deuteronomy 5:6
(6) I am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.


Clearly nothing here about the possibility there is
no deity or that agnostics or atheist take on belief

---

Exodus
20:3 You shall have no other gods besides Me.

_________________

This means "you shall have me as your God and no others"
An atheist would not have a God
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Whoops, that's not the Hebrew's Torah
Let's look at the Yemen Jew approved
1917 JPS xlation used by traditional
and orthodox congs who speak English



`al-panay is literally 'up in my face'
i.e., 'in front of me' or 'before me'

'Besides', is faulty even if masorti and others
use it, I don't know. 'Besides' meaning 'other
than' is an interpretation fitting a dogma of
pure monotheistic Israel from the git go to
suit modern tastes, ala, 'You shall have no
other gods period.' Mmmmmm? OK I guess.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Exodus
20:3 You shall have no other gods besides Me.

_________________

This means "you shall have me as your God and no others"
An atheist would not have a God

---

.


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Exodus
20:3
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Art blind?
'no other gods'
is verse 2 not 3.
Last hyphenated
Hebrew word is
`al-panay
up in my face.

You know
you can't
read Hebrew.

The first two words of each of
the Ten Utterances as adorns many a synagogue.



You've been fair so far
don't start playin crazy.

The Hebrew TN"K
is not
the Xian Old Testament.


Hebrews have
the Only Testament
with TetraGrammaton
the whole nation
standing there
200,000 man army
their wives & kids
and older folks too
accepting & ratifying
the Pact.


Primary document
The Hebrew book Shemoth (Names)
chapter 20 and verse three





 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Different translators have
"thou shalt have no other gods before me"

as 20:03

Isaac Leeser was one
but also from the same source you linked for utterances, Sepharia:

https://www.sefaria.org/Exodus.20.3?lang=en&aliyot=0
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Whoops, that's not the Hebrew's Torah
Let's look at the Yemen Jew approved
1917 JPS xlation used by traditional
and orthodox congs who speak English



`al-panay is literally 'up in my face'
i.e., 'in front of me' or 'before me'

'Besides', is faulty even if masorti and others
use it, I don't know. 'Besides' meaning 'other
than' is an interpretation fitting a dogma of
pure monotheistic Israel from the git go to
suit modern tastes, ala, 'You shall have no
other gods period.' Mmmmmm? OK I guess.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Exodus
20:3 You shall have no other gods besides Me.

_________________

This means "you shall have me as your God and no others"
An atheist would not have a God

---

.

---

But it is the Hebrew Torah. It is reproduced in the Yemen one you
reference- "before me." An argument from literalism -"not in my face"
is seen as limited. How can a human literally hold up supernatural entities
called "gods"? A supernatural entity does not have a material existence
that can be grasped. If the literal sense is to an idol of wood or stone etc,
no material idol would simply be hoisted aloft without some sort of
spiritual meaning or representation. To lift up an idol is to represent
it as having some sort of symbolic life or spiritual manifestation.

All such representations however are rejected by Jehovah- there were
to be none "besides" or "before." Exodus 20 is pretty clear. Whether
literal stone idol, or symbolic supernatural entity embodied in the stone,
all such were rejected. Naturally such exclusivity is not everyone's cup of tea.


Hence the commonly accepted interpretation recognized by almost all
believing Jews, and their authoritative Jewish teachers- none "besides" or
"before." It is an authoritative claim, an exclusive claim, rejecting
all other representations whether material, or non-material, as to the
true divine creator. This is one of the things that set the
Hebrews apart from other nearby peoples- this exclusive claim
by one deemed the author of all creation.


Here are some authoritative scholars and Rabbis off Google Books:


Here's Jewish scholar Richard Elliot Friedman for example:

"Exodus 20:3. before my face. Hebrew ‘al p ny' has no good English equivalent. The point is that everywhere is ‘al pny', i.e., before God’s face, so the commandment means that one simply cannot have any other gods. Monotheism has become so successful in Western civilization and much of Eastern civilization that it is difficult now for us to recapture the original force of this commandment. The profound has become the norm, so people forget that it is profound... The fact is that it is difficult to word a command of monotheism without referring to other deities. This is simply a fact of language.. The issue here is linguistic, not theological."
--Friedman, Richard, Elliott - Commentary on the Torah. 2001


And here's Rabbi Mordecai Yosef of Isbitza:

"After that it is said, “you shall not have any other gods,” meaning that you are not to think that there is another Source of Being45 in the world."
-- Rabbi Mordecai Yosef of Isbitza. Living waters: the Mei HaShiloach- a commentary on the Torah (2004)
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Different translators have
"thou shalt have no other gods before me"

as 20:03

Isaac Leeser was one
but also from the same source you linked for utterances, Sepharia:

https://www.sefaria.org/Exodus.20.3?lang=en&aliyot=0

---

Indeed. There may be small differences, but none affect the bottom
line meaning commonly accepted by almost all believing Jews.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

quote:

---

I agree that the modern jewish people have no relation to the land of ancient Israel. So who do you believe the descendants of the ancient Israelites are? Who are they today?

---

What I believe (spiritually) and what I can prove (historically) are two different things...

For me it is more important to reorient the biblical story back to the Nile Valley.. What I can tell you is that the Yahwist version of the Pentateuch is African/Egyptian in orientation and that Moses and Aaron and the original Levites where black African and had Egyptian names. And in the Yahwist version it was Miriam who was cursed white ( for a moment) for speaking out about Moses Kushite wife.


The key is to study West African tribes,oral history, mythology. legends, customs and languages... The African middle ages is an understudied period of time... and the connection of West Africa to Nubian Sahelian/Yemen complex going back to pharonic times again understudied and misunderstood.

---

Richard Friedman - The Exodus Based on the Sources Themselves


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-YlzpUhnxQ&t=0s

Excellent breakdown.. ^^^^^^

quote:

---

We know that some central figures in the biblical account have Egyptian names: Moses, Aaron, Phinehas, Hophni . All eight such names, Friedman notes, belong to Levites. For it was the Levites who left. The Exodus story is really the tale of how the people we call Levites left Egypt and joined up with the Israelites already in Canaan. To support this reconstruction, Friedman relies on several converging lines of evidence.

---

quote:

---

Why conclude the Levites were the ones who left Egypt? Well, in the Song of the Sea right after leaving Egypt (Exodus 15), the word “Israel” is never used. Various Egyptian practices and themes appear in Levitical sources of the Bible — and none appear in the non-Levitical sourc es. And each — Levites and Israelites — has a distinct name for God. The name El is of Canaanite origin and was used by the indigenous Israelites before the Levites arrived. The other, Yahweh, we find in the priestly (i.e. Levitical) sections of the Bible and was brought with them. Neither is discarded; rather they are combined and both used for the God of Israel. In other words, the Levite tradition was added to the Israelite tradition and together they formed the way the people refer to God.

---

quote:

---

Friedman also argues that the Bible’s preoccupation with the stranger is not from the Israelites who, after all, already lived in Canaan. Rather it is a product of the Levite experience of wandering and eventual acceptance into the people of Israel. (“Fifty-two out of 52 references to aliens occur in Levite sources.”) If Friedman is correct that the laws about the treatment of slaves and the story of the plagues and Exodus itself are from Levite sources, we owe to the Levites some of our most humane and influential ideas.

---

quote:

---

There are challenges to Friedman’s account: Who exactly were the Levites while still enslaved in Egypt, and how did their story become central to the larger community of Israel? Why did the Israelites in Canaan accept them when they arrived? Is the sourcing of passages in the Bible correct? Without slighting these and other difficulties, Friedman makes a gripping and persuasive case that it was the Levites who escaped Egypt and carried the story of the Exodus into Canaan, teaching us one of Judaism’s foundational ethics: not to oppress the stranger because we were once oppressed.

---

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/22/books/review/james-kugel-great-shift-richard-elliott-friedman-exodus.html


You know I think Hophni sounds like Hefny...




Dr. Mostafa Hefny in Detroit. Hefny, an Egyptian immigrant who lives in Detroit wants the U.S. government to classify him as black, not white. The Egypt-born Hefny, 61, says he's easily identifiable as a black man, but when he was admitted to the U.S. decades ago, he was classified on government papers as a white person. Hefny says he's a Nubian, an ancient group of Egyptians considered more African than A
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Who Wrote the Torah?

https://www.ias.edu/ideas/2018/schmid-torah
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
^^^


None the less `al-panay remains up in my face
'Before' is not the same as 'beside'. Front is
neither left nor right or 'other than'.

Modern Hebrew is not ancient Hebrew though
very close. With that lead premise I invite
any and all to copy `al-panay and paste it
into google's translator set for UNKNOWN ->
ENGLISH, unless you can read Hebrew script
and look it up in
- Tomback
- Gesenius
- Brown Driver Briggs
- Jastrow
- Megiddo
lexicons and dictonaries of
Phoenician/Punic Hebrew/Chaldee Talmudic&Modern Hebrew

Where is one raised to've never heard the expressions
"Don't you get up in my face"
"You better get out my face"
Literal schmiteral, its obvious not meaning
physically up in my face or out of my face
in Sh*moth. No one can literally get up in
or out of a face (Marvel's the Vision excepted).

No need applying rationality to god talk.
Faith and belief can be inimical to reason
and the text says only a voice was heard
no wraith or other spirit was seen.

Does one also suppose a literal physical
finger of an immaterial non-manifesting
deity scripted onto stone notepads?

Or that deity showed buttocks
when Moshe asked to see the
deity communicating with him?

Would anyone hold any peoples' myths
and legends to standards of reality?
All other peoples deity concepts do
in fact have corporeal gods who even
fuck humans leaving demi-gods and
that's what makes the Christian Jesus
birth like a rip off of Greek mythology
where Zeus has innumerable kids with
women, single or married.

Again Teimani run Mechon Mamre uses the JPS 1917
the site does not present a direct Teimani from
Hebrew to English translation. I have posted
screen shots from MM no need to say something
is there that isn't.

Don't forget I'm explaining from the aspect
of a time when Israel officially had henotheism
and hadn't yet progressed to monotheism. Remember
I told you as late as 1100 years ago enough Jews
believed their deity corporeal that the Gaon
Saadya wrote the Book of Beliefs and Opinions
to correct that and other things he felt
extraneous to the ongoing development of
the faith in a world including Christianity
and Islam where most Jews lived then.

Can one examine a text written for Levantine mid-late
iron age (-600) people featuring cast props and scenery
from the collapse of the bronze age (-1200) and expect
them to have full blown modern concepts or even Mishnaic
ones that lead to the modern?

Well maybe so sometimes, as in the Shabbath
that introduced 'the weekend' to the world.
Observing Shabbath and praying 3 times a day
for the restoration of Ssion and the Ingathering
there of Israel's scattered members is what's
held a people together over 1800 years.


TN"K and siddur have references both to existence of many deities,
the slaying of Egypt's deity by the Hebrew's deity, estimation of
surrounding peoples' deities as "no-gods", and never ever no 'god'
but the Hebrew deity.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Decades ago I sat up late mornings pouring over
various rabbinic commentaries for the weekly
parasha in order to deliver the d*rasha to
the congregation come daylight hours later.

I no longer own Nachmanides and others, so I'll
snap from three of the most used Hebrew-English
editions of Hhumash in the traditional and orthdox
Jewish world.

The Soncino Chumash ed. Cohen
The Stone Chumash eds. Sherman & Zlotowitz
The Pentateuch & Haftorahs ed. Hertz


The only stand alone commentary I still own is
Antonelli
In the Image of God:
a feminist commentary on the Torah
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Continuing Education

The Soncino Chumash is like an abridged
Miqraoth Gedeloth and so not for shul use
as much as a commentator compendium.
Unlike the Hertz, Cohen has no exegesis
of modern scholarship tweaking old lore.





Above is the text in Hebrew and English
with snippet commentaries on Sh*moth 20:3
from these great medieval commentators

* Rash"i --------- 11th cent France and Rhineland
* Rashba"m ----- disagreeing grandson of Rash"i
* ibn Ezra ------- 12th cent Spain
* Nachmanides - 13th cent Spain (frequently disagrees w/Rash"i
* Sforno --------- 16th cent Italy

Each has their own methodology whether

* homiletical
* peshath
* literary
* legal : moral : mystic : literal
* peshath : ethics


Nachmanides 'disputation' dramatized @

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p3WlesJgaI&t=11s

to get an idea about this commentator's mentality and
basic differences between Sephardi Tahor Y*haduth
and Spanish Catholic Christianity.

Ah, the outcome of a Jew explaining Judaism to
non-Jews who simply don't want to hear it as is
then go on to debate they know better.

Shall I heed the Ramba"n outcome or go on and try
and teach non-Jews what they don't want to hear
because what I say impinges on their religion,
Christianity, a sort of Stolen Legacy if ever
there were one. Of course outside of polemics
serious scholarship reveals all civs/cultures do
borrow from each other.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Masorti or Conservative Judaism was born as
a reaction to Reform Judaism. Neither is yet
200 yrs old. Masorti range from orthodox to
reform in beliefs, practices, and outlooks
pending congregation and its board & rabbi.

Here is a Masorti opinion on evolution of Israel
from henotheism to monotheism particularly about
what beliefs were current before -600 a date
accepted in academia as when Torah was first
written down based on N"K evidence of the
discovery of a lost scroll of the law
(presumed to be Debarim) which they
have concluded was a contemporaneous
fabrication of a melek and lewiiym
hard pressed to keep the populace
together.


https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/monotheism/
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^

quote:

---

Does one also suppose a literal physical
finger of an immaterial non-manifesting
deity scripted onto stone notepads?

Or that deity showed buttocks
when Moshe asked to see the
deity communicating with him?

---

quote:

---

According to Justin Martyr, Jewish doctors conceived of God as having hands, feet, and fingers.
Dialogue with Trypho, 114. Origen declares that the Jews imagine God as being similar to a human being, that their belief is founded on Is 66:1

---

quote:

---

Basil the Great asks Christians to dispel any notion of a corporeal God: it is the Jews who attribute a “form” (morphên) 
On the Origin of Man, 1.5. to him. Arnobius of Sicca agrees with Basil. It is the Jews and the Sadducees who attribute forms (formas) to God

---

quote:

---

The demonstration by Maimonides of divine incorporeality is not exactly in harmony with ancient rabbinic Judaism which, on the question of the divine body, was succeeded by the Cabbalistic tradition. However, in the third principle of faith of Maimonides, integrated as such into later Judaism, divine incorporeality made some headway, including among Cabbalists

---

quote:

---

Despite the obstacles posed by the rabbinic tradition and perpetuated mainly in the academic world, the fact that God has a body in ancient rabbinic Judaism is increasingly recognized by recent research./QUOTE]


[QUOTE]The fact that God has a body clearly arises in a large number of verses. It is a body which at first sight appears similar to that of man, whence the justifiable use of the term anthropomorphism, on condition that this term is used in its narrowest sense, in accordance with its etymology. The God of the Bible also has human emotions and in that sense, we can talk of anthropopathism. [15]

There is a vast literature on the anthropomorphic and… In a recent work, Esther J. Hamori distinguishes five fundamental types of anthropomorphism: concrete, envisioned, immanent, transcendent, and figurative.

---

quote:

---

Nb 12:8 states explicitly that God has a form (temurat ha-shem) and Ez 1:26 that he is similar to a man: “And upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

---

quote:

---

God also allows himself to be seen, particularly by the patriarchs

---

It is the J or the Yahwist( Levitical) portion of the Pentateuch that has a "corporeal" YHWH...

He makes man in his image
He walks in the cool of the garden of Eden
He closes the ark with his hands
Genesis 8:21 ESV /
And when the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma, the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man

YHWH has a nose and a heart..??

quote:

---

In J, YHWH is an anthropomorphic figure both physically (Genesis 3:8, Genesis 11:5, Exodus 17:7) and mentally (such as when Abraham bargains with Yahweh for the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, or when, during the exodus, YHWH, incensed by the Israelites' lack of faith, threatens to destroy them all and raise Moses' descendants instead but "relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened" when dissuaded by Moses).[10]

---

quote:

---

The Elohist source is characterized by, among other things, an abstract view of God , using Horeb instead of Sinai for the mountain where Moses received the laws of Israel and the use of the phrase "fear of God" It habitually locates ancestral stories in the north, especially Ephraim, and the documentary hypothesis holds that it must have been composed in that region, possibly in the second half of the 9th century BCE

---

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
run go uncritically accept Euro opinions on Africana
and especially accept their notion of fetish
and reject Africans rebuffing that concept.

Give me Ogotemmeli on his people's astronomy
You can have Sagan's Euro opinion of the Dogon.


=-=-=


Continuing education on Judaism from a Jew


The Stone Chumash was designed for the
Hasidic world though found in orthodox
Mitnagid and Sepharade Torah study halls.






 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

Arms of God depicted, at top center

וַיּוֹצִאֵ֤נוּ יְהוָה֙ מִמִּצְרַ֔יִם בְּיָ֤ד חֲזָקָה֙ וּבִזְרֹ֣עַ נְטוּיָ֔ה וּבְמֹרָ֖א גָּדֹ֑ל וּבְאֹת֖וֹת וּבְמֹפְתִֽים׃


The Dura-Europos synagogue was an ancient synagogue uncovered at Dura-Europos, Syria, in 1932. The synagogue contains a forecourt and house of assembly with painted walls depicting people and animals, and a Torah shrine in the western wall facing Jerusalem.
The time that the Dura-Europos synagogue was active was not long as it was buried as part of the Roman defense against Sasanian troops in 256 A.D. The Dura-Europos Synagogue remains the earliest example of Judeo-Christian artwork available for study.

Some think that this synagogue was painted in order to compete with the many other religions practiced in Dura Europos; the new (and considerably smaller) Christian Dura-Europos church appears to have opened shortly before the surviving paintings were begun in the synagogue. The large-scale pictorial art in the synagogue came as a surprise to scholars, although they already suspected that there was a tradition of Jewish narrative religious art at this period, which at the time of the discovery were thought to have all been lost, leaving only traces in later Christian art. The discovery of the synagogue helps to dispel narrow interpretations of Judaism's historical prohibition of visual images.
___________________________

The Arm of the Lord: From Moses to Isaiah to Christ

https://davidschrock.com/2017/12/13/the-arm-of-the-lord-from-moses-to-isaiah-to-christ/
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 


"Hebrew Brick Makers" or "With and Without Straw: How Israelite Slaves Made Bricks"

(Tomb of Rekhmire, Egypt, 14th Century BCE)

"SLAVING AWAY. Nubian and Semitic slaves mix water and mud to create mudbricks while a seated Egyptian official (upper right) oversees their work. This painting comes from Rekhmire’s tomb in Thebes and depicts the process of manufacturing mudbricks."

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287786412_With_without_straw_How_Israelite_slaves_made_bricks

lioness; this predates your "dura europas" fresco by over 1,000 years and is one of the oldest known images of Hebrews/Israelites. Dura europas was built, ruled and controlled by europeans in Syria -- this mura is from 14th century BCE Egypt prior to any european influence on art or history.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Greek mythological Leta and the Swan was popular synagogue art,
though imagery, sex in a s*la, bestiality, and foreign deities are all
forbiddens.

For hundreds of years and until tomorrow Jewish
gravestones often have a hand chopping a tree. It
represents deity ending a life. We don't believe
or think our deity has a physical hand that can
detach from a physical arm without need of cauter
so the body doesn't bleed out.

Corporeality left the ignoramuses of Israel only
upon the teaching of the gaon Saadya bar Yosef
of Upper Egypt 1100 yrs ago in his treatise on the subject.





 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
There are no Israelites in the scene but note the
Egyptian is the same or darker complexioned than
the Sudanese and so is one Levantine. Source was
better off leaving it at Semites, though they are
north Levant Aamu. The Semite natural stomping
ground is from Syria/Iraq south to Ethiopia.



AE records mention an 'ISR3R' in Merneptah's reign.
No AE art depicts and labels any Hebrews or Israelites,
ttbomr. Please inform, I'm willing to learn something
I never knew before and can accept being taught by
those who do.


The image touted as Yehu? No one knows who that guy
is. Several academicians cast doubt on a Yehu identity
decades ago.

No controversy, except from Afrocentrics, that
Assyrian art renders the Judahites of Lachish
faithfully.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 



https://www.flickr.com/photos/manna4u/32513653582/in/photostream/

The tomb-chapel of Rekhmire TT100
Tomb of Rekhmire

TT 100 Abd el-Qurna, Theban necropolis Luxor West-Bank

Fourth register

_____________________________


18 other high quality photos from Rekhmire TT100

https://www.flickr.com/photos/manna4u/albums/72157678333466360



 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

same under dimmer lighting conditions

My estimate is that the most accurate color is in between this and the previous I posted

If you look at the several figures in the scene you see two different types
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@lioness

Why are you using reconstructed images? Those aren't the original images. Scholars/professors with Ph.d's and other credentials in near eastern archaeology, israel antiquities, hebrew and semitic studies, etc., all agree that the images on this page are the authentic images:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287786412_With_without_straw_How_Israelite_slaves_made_bricks
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
There are no Israelites in the scene but note the
Egyptian is the same or darker complexioned than
the Sudanese. Source was better off leaving it at
Semites though they are north Levant Aamu and
Semites natural range is from Syria/Iraq south
to Ethiopia.



AE records mention an 'ISR3R' in Merneptah's reign.
No AE art depicts and labels any Hebrews or Israelites,
ttbomr. Please inform, I'm willing to learn something
I never knew before and can accept being taught by
those who do.


The image touted as Yehu? No one knows who that guy
is. Several academicians cast doubt on a Yehu identity
decades ago.

No controversy, except from Afrocentrics, that
Assyrian art renders the Judahites of Lachish
faithfully.

---

I'm just going by what the title says but there were Israelites in Egypt
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:




same under dimmer lighting conditions

My estimate is that the most accurate color is in between this and the previous I posted

If you look at the several figures in the scene you see two different types

---

Can you explain the prognathism?



https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0018442X1630018X




https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947357/
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
True your source labels them from a non-existing
place Syro-Palestine. But what is the Levant?
Is it the stretch of land between Egypt and
Anatolia bordering the east Mediterranean coast?
Is that not from Palestine with its Shasu blx to
Israel to Lebanon to Syria with Leuco-Syrians?
[Yes I located Leuco-Syrians in Anatolia itself.]

Does not Aamu cover this extensive region's ppls?

The guy's eye isn't blue but such were likely to
appear more in northern Syrians than southern
'Palestinians' or more correctly Philistines. Or
maybe they brought blue eyes to the south Levant
from the Balkans? Philistines weren't Arabs. Who are
current Palestinians? Do they descend from ancient
Philistines any more or less than current Israelis
descend from the Hebrews?


Who recalls going over the eye and chest hairs way way
backinthedays ES' general consensus was that the man
was an Egyptian rather than an obvious foreigner?

starting @ http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=001295#000017
with a few more related posts on him
ending @ http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=001295#000043

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

Scholars consider this a Sryo-Palestinian

---

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:




same under dimmer lighting conditions

My estimate is that the most accurate color is in between this and the previous I posted

If you look at the several figures in the scene you see two different types

---

Can you explain the prognathism?



https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0018442X1630018X




https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947357/

---

Thank you for pointing this out.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
[QB] @lioness

Why are you using reconstructed images? Those aren't the original images.

---

false. I did not use reconstructed images. Stop the BS. The one you posted has a pure white background. Tomb walls to not have a pure white color, plus I posted two versions and both are legit

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
I'm just going by what the title says but there were Israelites in Egypt

---

not enough

Again here is the scene photographed by an Egyptian man you documents many tombs

https://www.flickr.com/photos/manna4u/32513653582/in/album-72157678333466360/

If you click on the image you can see high quality resolution in the enlargement and many other figures in the broader scene


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
However the topic is Judaism
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Would you like to walk through the excellent tool
Sefaria for the great Commentators' translated
words on Sh*moth 20:3 focusing on `al-panay?

If yes open a thread in this forum.
I think the religion forum is closed,
ask a boss, Askia or Rey.


=-=-=


Anything 'up in your face' is necessarily
before you or in front of you. The phrase
has connotations of being insensed (angry
at a wrong).

Before: earlier; to the front; in preference

Beside: to the left or right; other than; anyway (besides)

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Different translators have
"thou shalt have no other gods before me"

as 20:03


https://www.sefaria.org/Exodus.20.3?lang=en&aliyot=0

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
I think I saw one scholar analysis that was to the effect the gods must be parts of my one face, God.
In other words have your gods but none may be before me in the sense in front of Me, the primary God. An attempt was made to present the calf as the primary, that could not be allowed but lesser god yes, that was OK.
However others pointed out other verses contradicting that sort of allowance, that there is to one God and none other, not OK
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
There are millions of Jews just counting adults.
Who has interviewed nearly all of them?
Who'd have a closer to original understanding?
The majority Reform Jews, admixed Ashkenazim?
A tiny community like Iraqi or Moroccan Jews?

At the first ordination of Reform rabbis these
believers served trefu like pork and shellfish.
Reform Jews are the majority of people identifying
as Jewish followed by Jews essentially without any
Judaism.

Sepharadiym are a not staggering 1-2% of USA Jewry.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/03/15/unlike-u-s-few-jews-in-israel-identify-as-reform-or-conservative/


But yeah yall are correct.

Upon closer examination Mechon Mamre's numbering
is different to all the ones I've ever read before.

I've been awed by Teimaniym since seeing them read
a book from any angle even slanted and observing a
9 yr old receive an aliyah and chant it perfectly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AuWAIeFRw0

Plus knowing Ashkenazim disguised themselves to
get into Yemen to 'retrieve' spoken Hebrew language
lesson books before they could invent 'modern Hebrew'.

There are plans underway to issue new editions
of standard Hebrew works according to the ones
from Teyman like eg., correcting 'western' Talmud
Babli and Mishneh Torah from copies never under the
Christian Church Censor's hand since even before the
Soncino Press.

Free dwnld https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Censorship_of_Hebrew_Books/J6VEevvnrNMC?hl=en


As it stands the 'universal' numbering is 20:3
not the last line of 20:2 as private to Teymani.

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Different translators have
"thou shalt have no other gods before me"

as 20:03

Isaac Leeser was one
but also from the same source you linked for utterances, Sepharia:

https://www.sefaria.org/Exodus.20.3?lang=en&aliyot=0

---

Indeed. There may be small differences, but none affect the bottom
line meaning commonly accepted by almost all believing Jews.

---

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

Can you please please explain why actual professors/scholars and archaeologists who have all of the relevant credentials view and use this image as the authentic mural from the Tomb of Rekhmire?



The authors/professors/archaeologists, along with their credentials:



https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287786412_With_without_straw_How_Israelite_slaves_made_bricks
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

Here is an in-person view of the mural in question, posted by a photographer on his blog.



Notice how it looks nothing like the image(s) you posted?

https://ferrelljenkins.blog/2020/03/12/ferrells-favorite-foto-36-egyptian-brick-making/amp/
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

Can you please please explain why actual professors/scholars and archaeologists who have all of the relevant credentials view and use this image as the authentic mural from the Tomb of Rekhmire?



The authors/professors/archaeologists, along with their credentials:



https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287786412_With_without_straw_How_Israelite_slaves_made_bricks

---

this is a higher resolution photo than what you have . It's as simple as that. Look at the texture in the wall.


There are hundreds of professors and Egyptologists. They may or may not put the top quality a photo in a article, just an ok one because they are commenting on on what is going on in the scene rather then high detail.
Look at what I have posted her and what you have posted there is not difference significant enough even to bother about

Same thing with that other photo by travel blogger Ferrell Jenkins.
Only difference is what I have posted is higher resolution, look at the detail that comes through above compared to what Ferrell Jenkins has posted


^^ this is what you posted by Ferrell Jenkins in a previous post.
The original photo may be much better, nevertheless what you posted from his website is of this quality, much less than what I posted
You can't even see the chest or facial hair

And this discussion has run it's course since there is no evidence that these are Hebrews.
The man is a foreigner, apparently Asiatic, probably Levantine and with this surprising head hair, chest hair, facial, color lighter than his skin
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Continuing education


The Hertz Pentateuch & Haftorahs is still
the modern orthodox synagogue standard. Written
for the Jew of the modern western world and the
20th century's American ecumenical theology.






=-=-=


Please don't call me prejudiced for mild concurrence with your source
whose English is perhaps easier than mine. But go have your gods behind
my back is a bit much no? Scroll up to that comic book redux hyuck hyuck.

The misswah here is no other deities in the
presence of Israel's now omnipresent deity.
At the time was that pretty much the case?
Later ppl started reading 'pure monotheism'
into the text including some top commentators.


Torah is a living document meant to speak to
k*lal Yisra'el throughout all spacetime pointing
the path or way to walk in day to day life.


Hence adaptation to interpretation according to the times.


Can't find any primary reference to Israel ever
postulating their deity as all the deities
summed up. Other deities were clearly
separate and disparaged by Israel
officials. Nothing like the Hindu
belief system which Israel considers
misconstuing of 'gifts' great-grandfather
Abraham gave to the children of the concubines
before sending them away eastward to the east country.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
I think I saw one scholar analysis that was to the effect the gods must be [facets] of my one face, God. In other words

have your gods
but none may be before me

in the sense in front of Me, the primary God.

An attempt was made to present the calf as the primary, that could not be allowed but lesser god yes, that was OK.
However others pointed out other verses contradicting that sort of allowance, that there is to one God and none other, not OK

---

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Both sets of Rekmire photos look authentic to me.
One photographer details his camera settings.
The other says nothing about his picture taking tool.

Manna4u says he didn't use a flash but looks like
some intense though soft lighing was in the tomb.

Jenkins appears using standard techniques of lighting
and filtering like in the professional AE img catalogs.


That piece on researchgate doesn't credit the
photo on p.61 which sure looks like Manna's pic.
Check the bent over Sudanis arm alongside torso.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 


^^^^

this image is a painting from the MET
Artist: Nina de Garis Davies (1881–1965)Medium: Tempera on Paper
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/544649
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Both sets of Rekmire photos look authentic to me.
One photographer details his camera settings.
The other says nothing about his picture taking tool.

Manna4u says he didn't use a flash but looks like
some intense though soft lighing was in the tomb.

Jenkins appears using standard techniques of lighting
and filtering like in the professional AE img catalogs.


That piece on researchgate doesn't credit the
photo on p.61 which sure looks like Manna's pic.
Check the bent over Sudanis arm outline detail.

---

Thank you for pointing that out. I did not notice
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:


^^^^

this image is a painting from the MET
Artist: Nina de Garis Davies (1881–1965)Medium: Tempera on Paper
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/544649

---

Thank you... I tried to tell her. Also, thank you for linking the image/artist that she was using because a lot of eurocentrics use that same image and claim the authentic one depicting the semites as dark-skinned people is fake. Now I can just simply link them over to that page at the MET website to debunk their lies.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:


Please don't call me prejudiced for mild concurrence with this source
whose English is perhaps easier than mine. But go have your gods behind
my back is a bit much no? Scroll up to that comic book redux hyuck hyuck.

At the time that seems pretty much the case.
Later ppl started reading 'pure monotheism'
into the text including some top commentators.

---

The Israelites were apparently worshipping various gods
but when it was decided to live by firm laws, they could not have two more gods. That might cause conflicting decrees or mild concurrence in place of strong concurrence

Yet the Egyptians seemed to last quite a while with their multiplicity

Maybe this is what eventually happens when you learn to store grain and domesticate animals, Natural forces cannot dictate they way they did before
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Thank you... I tried to tell her. Also, thank you for linking the image/artist that she was using because a lot of eurocentrics use that same image and claim the authentic one depicting the semites as dark-skinned people is fake. Now I can just simply link them over to that page at the MET website to debunk their lies.

---

You tried to tell who what? I didn't post Nina de Garis Davies. Look at the borders of that Nina de Garis Davies. Then look what I posted. What I posted extends beyond the borders because that is a photo straight off the wall as the link shows.
And you cannot justify calling these figure "Semites" either
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Thank you... I tried to tell her. Also, thank you for linking the image/artist that she was using because a lot of eurocentrics use that same image and claim the authentic one depicting the semites as dark-skinned people is fake. Now I can just simply link them over to that page at the MET website to debunk their lies.

---

You tried to tell who what? I didn't post Nina de Garis Davies. Look at the borders of that Nina de Garis Davies. Then look what I posted. What I posted extends beyond the borders because that is a photo straight off the wall as the link shows.
And you cannot justify calling these figure "Semites" either

---

You posted a reconstructed image... an artist re-rendering... I dare you to show a photo of those silly looking orange/yellow people on any wall in the tomb of Rekhmire (like how I did). It's not the original image.

The scholars and professors say those are semites. The fact that you do not want to accept it does not change the facts.

You can't even discern the difference between authentic ancient murals and artist re-renderings so it's no surprise that you are denying other facts as well.
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
However the topic is Judaism

---

I considered this is about population genetics, which includes physical anthropology? Movement of a people, linguistics and religious belief. What was the reason for you to post heads/ faces up close if this is about Judaism solely? Shouldn't you then focus on the Hebrew scriptures?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Thank you for pointing this out.

---

You are welcome.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 



https://www.flickr.com/photos/manna4u/32513653582/in/photostream/

The tomb-chapel of Rekhmire TT100
Tomb of Rekhmire

TT 100 Abd el-Qurna, Theban necropolis Luxor West-Bank

Fourth register

_____________________________


18 other high quality photos from Rekhmire TT100

https://www.flickr.com/photos/manna4u/albums/72157678333466360

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
You posted a reconstructed image... an artist re-rendering... I dare you to show a photo of those silly looking orange/yellow people on any wall in the tomb of Rekhmire (like how I did). It's not the original image.

The scholars and professors say those are semites. The fact that you do not want to accept it does not change the facts.

You can't even discern the difference between authentic ancient murals and artist re-renderings so it's no surprise that you are denying other facts as well.

---

You are claiming the above is a reconstructed image. That's a lie. You seems to say a lot of things with no proof and you do this because you want to believe something for religious purposes.
This man Kairoinfo4u is doing incredible work taking high resolution photos of many tombs and if you go to his Flikr to the albums sections you can see he has an large collection of original photos he took himself. The above scene from Rekhmire is a clip I made, if you go to the link you can see it's part
of a larger scene and you will see that no reconstructed image exists of that full scene and you will see 18 other photos from Rekhmire. And when you click on them you can see they enlarge nicely and maintaining a good resolution (did you look? of course not)
The lighting he used on this scene seems slightly high so I included another photo of this figure under dimmer conditions. However his photos are more professional because they professional even lighting. Other photos you will see are often by amateurs who come in to the relatively dimly lit tomb and you can see the unevenness of the flash they use, part of the scene is brighter than the rest which is overall dimmer. There is a certain shimmer look in those photos which has do with the flash.
So anyway the lighting Kairoinfo4u used in this particular scene looks slightly high to me but on the other hand what it reveals is that the figures are not of the same skin tone. The Aamu (Asiatics) with the light hair are lighter than the Nehesy of the Sudan they are working with and that is similar to many other depictions of Aamu in other scenes in various tombs.
Despite the high lighting you can see the Nehesy figures are still quite dark.






Again another legit photo just under different lighting conditions, look at all the texture on the wall
In my estimation the true color of this is somewhere in between shade-wise the two photos.
The Kairoinfo4U one however reveals the difference between the Aamu and Nehesy figures (and black haired Egyptians in other parts of the scene) and the Egyptians darker than the Aaamu.
"Semitic" refers to language so I can't call them Semitic with no evidence they spoke a Semitic language




https://collections.mfa.org/objects/142815
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Exodus 1

8 A new king arose over Egypt who did not know Joseph.
9 And he said to his people, “Look, the Israelite people are much too numerous for us.
10 Let us deal shrewdly with them, so that they may not increase; otherwise in the event of war they may join our enemies in fighting against us and rise from the ground.”
11 So they set taskmasters over them to oppress them with forced labor; and they built garrison cities for Pharaoh: Pithom and Raamses.
________________

Exodus 20

2 I the LORD am your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, the house of bondage
______________________________________

Do you believe there were Israelite slaves in Egypt?

____________________________________

Exodus

21

1 These are the rules that you shall set before them:
2 When you acquire a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years; in the seventh year he shall go free, without payment.
3 If he came single, he shall leave single; if he had a wife, his wife shall leave with him.
4 If his master gave him a wife, and she has borne him children, the wife and her children shall belong to the master, and he shall leave alone.
5 But if the slave declares, “I love my master, and my wife and children: I do not wish to go free,”
6 his master shall take him before God. He shall be brought to the door or the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall then remain his slave for life.
7 When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not be freed as male slaves are.
_________________________________________

What do yo think of this, Israelites purported to be slaves in Egypt, then being allowed by the Most High to enslave their own non-elite Hebrew brethren and given these guidelines on how to do it
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
[ Originally the above post was only one line, this.

"Do you believe there were Israelite slaves in Egypt?"

The reply down below is in answer to that. Nothing about
slavery was in the above. Laws of slavery for a Hebrew
differ from those for 'Canaanite' slaves.

That passage shows three things Hebrew Israelites don't
like.

1. Nationality follows mother not father.
2. Internally, Israelites are free people, Hebrews are slaves.
   Externally we are known by the nations (goyiym, gentiles) as Hebrew.
3. Earring on a male Israel is the mark of Hebrew slaving for an Israelite.

Hebrew slavery for an Israelite made serious class
distinction and showed all classes' attitude to those
who unfortunately had no trade skill or failed at it
and so unable to provide a livelihood for self and family.

If not enslaved by a fellow Israel whom he asked to take
him on and no DOLE WELFARE or SOCIAL SECURITY safety net
the man and family would surely perish or sell himself
and them to non-Jews and thus be completely stripped
of Israel culture and practice. One prophet calls the
Nation out on enslaving tribal citizens for life and
the devastating consequences




I do not approve of the slavery system still in practice
among Tukuler in Toro but I don't live there and don't
know its value to society. Nonetheless I support Fulani
slaves seeking their freedom from Fulani masters. ]


=-=-= Now on to the original reply =-=-=



"Do you believe there were Israelite slaves in Egypt?"


Who me?

I BELIEVE the family of Ya`aqob bar Yiss*hhaq
bar Abraham moved to Egypt and there multiplied
exponentially in number and after taking on wage
paying jobs were gradually reduced to a non-chattel
slave labor caste except for the Lewiiym.




I cannot allow my personal faith to override
objective archaeological interpretations of
the finds in the ancient Levant including
east of the Rift. Then there are primary
documents from the subject and
neighboring peoples.

Biblical archaeology is a farce considering
its premise is Bible driven archaeology.
I'm all for Levant archaeology where TN"K
is just another ancient work susceptible
to the same critique as any other and is
useful the same way Greek religion and
mythology are. Yet archaeology of the
Aegean is not called Homeric archaeology.


I don't THINK Sh*moth be taken as an unerring
history book. Hebrew speakers were probably
in Egypt in various working class capacities
and mostly the serventry. Semitic names are
evident in rolls of Aamu slaves and servants
in Egyptian huoseholds. We read of Aamu slaves
marrying in. Some are cut in the last will of
their Egyptian employer.

No I don't THINK Israel were slaves in Egypt

I think Israel was birthed from dissatisfied
and disgruntle Canaanites who took to the hills
to escape oppression from their own chiefs under
Egyptian control. Hence the Hebrew scriptures
paint Canaan and Egypt in the worse light of
any of the nations.

https://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/post/22309/thread



Any word of re-activating the religion forum maybe
re-named and re-purposed to Comparative Religion?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Taz

Thx so much for broaching an enduring thread with a solid
core and excellent sidebars from all serious contributors.

I hope you like the way it has developed.
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
I think I saw one scholar analysis that was to the effect the gods must be parts of my one face, God.
In other words have your gods but none may be before me in the sense in front of Me, the primary God. An attempt was made to present the calf as the primary, that could not be allowed but lesser god yes, that was OK.

However others pointed out other verses contradicting that sort of allowance, that there is to one God and none other, not OK

---

Which view do most Jews follow or recognize today as authoritative:
the first view, or the second?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
I think I saw one scholar analysis that was to the effect the gods must be parts of my one face, God.
In other words have your gods but none may be before me in the sense in front of Me, the primary God. An attempt was made to present the calf as the primary, that could not be allowed but lesser god yes, that was OK.

However others pointed out other verses contradicting that sort of allowance, that there is to one God and none other, not OK

---

Which view do most Jews follow or recognize today as authoritative:
the first view, or the second?

---

___________________________________________

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-birth-and-evolution-of-judaism

Ancient Jewish History: The Birth and Evolution of Judaism

The Mosaic religion was initially a monolatrous religion; while the Hebrews are enjoined to worship no deity but Yahweh, there is no evidence that the earliest Mosaic religion denied the existence of other gods. In fact, the account of the migration contains numerous references by the historical characters to other gods, and the first law of the Decalogue is, after all, that no gods be put before Yahweh, not that no other gods exist. While controversial among many people, most scholars have concluded that the initial Mosaic religion for about two hundred years was a monolatrous religion. For there is ample evidence in the Hebrew account of the settlement of Palestine, that the Hebrews frequently changed religions, often several times in a single lifetime.

___________________________________

The first view may have been closer to early Judaism, that it was not denying the existence of other gods,
however other gods should not be worshiped

So over time if the other gods are not being worshipped then they appear not to exist

__________________________

Exodus 20:5

לֹֽא־תִשְׁתַּחְוֶ֥֣ה לָהֶ֖ם֮ וְלֹ֣א תָעָבְדֵ֑ם֒ כִּ֣י אָֽנֹכִ֞י יְהוָ֤ה אֱלֹהֶ֙יךָ֙ אֵ֣ל קַנָּ֔א פֹּ֠קֵד עֲוֺ֨ן אָבֹ֧ת עַל־בָּנִ֛ים עַל־שִׁלֵּשִׁ֥ים וְעַל־רִבֵּעִ֖ים לְשֹׂנְאָֽ֑י׃

You shall not bow down to them or serve them. For I the LORD your God am an impassioned God, visiting the guilt of the parents upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generations of those who reject Me,
_______________________________

It doesn't say other gods do not exist it says don't bow to them

However legend has it that Moses wrote this. Could it be that he didn't believe in the existence of other gods but in order to get the Israelites to believe in Yahweh it was too harsh to tell them who traditionally worshipped these other Gods, not only to not worship them but they didn't even exist?

It reminds me of the Nation of Islam who say God is not a spook in the sky and will not come to save you
that the Black man is God and God came in the person of a man

That is not as harsh as saying there is no God.

Or other groups who say "You are God" .
The word God is not thrown out instead reassigned to the self

However the word is the word, we can only guess the exact intent
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

I'm not the only person who has pointed out the fact thag that the image you are sharing is not the authentic. You can't even show any images of those yellow skinned people on any of the walls of the tomb of rekhmire (like how I did). I've shown the actual images from inside of the tomb that prove the images I've shared are the authentic originals, and I've also proven that scholastic authorities also agree and use that same image.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Taz

Thx so much for broaching an enduring thread with a solid
core and excellent sidebars from all serious contributors.

I hope you like the way it has developed.

---

No problem, I do like the way it has developed and thank you for all of your input
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
@Tukuler, looking at Aamu in the Book of gates do you consider this brick maker in Rekhmire to be of the same group?
Should there be a throwstick glyph somewhere near him?



could he be a Retjenu?

and is a Retjenu a subcategory of Aamu?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
You have to take each artwork as it is for what it is
not what for that you expect there should be in it as
if they're ethnographic textbooks where everybody's
ethnicity is neatly inscribed in detail.

The text just says the scene is some slaves from a raid/war
making bricks to repair some workshops in Amun's temple.

I stand by my 2004 story. He's Aamw, probably northern.
Allo dem wit dsame type o white 'briefs' on they butz.

Retjenu? Didja go sneak a peak at some Procession
and its ethnic labels for the fourth register, hmm?
You've tracked down in this same tomb what was just
a mental impression and most logical just eyeballing
the guy. Him and his Yassir Arafat lips and what not.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
A Jew of African black antecedence can run it down
but it's not real or factual unless Simon Sez i.e.
the yteman says so.

One of ours says: Advance
Most stay stock still
Any who advance are penalized.

Simon Sez: Take two steps backward
Most step back two paces
Any who refuse to step back are penalized.


And again where is this interview/poll of all/most Jews?
Reform holds the plurality. Does this less than 200
year old schism originally aimed to make everyday
Germans out of traditionally observant Jews represent
"authentic" Judaism or do tiny ancient Jewish minorities
south and east of the Mediterranean best represent 'the Jewish idea"?

And yes its a Reform website below where it says
what I've said all along. It's a rational approach.
A good number of Spanish&Portuguese and modern Orthodox
would have no intellectual problem with critical analysis.
Spanish&Portuguese Jews already had 'secular' 7 arts
and sciences elementary education in al-Andalus Muslim Iberia.

No surprise you can see this view expressed in
old Sephardi Tahor peshath based commentaries.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
I think I saw one scholar analysis that was to the effect the gods must be parts of my one face, God.
In other words have your gods but none may be before me in the sense in front of Me, the primary God. An attempt was made to present the calf as the primary, that could not be allowed but lesser god yes, that was OK.

However others pointed out other verses contradicting that sort of allowance, that there is to one God and none other, not OK

---

Which view do most Jews follow or recognize today as authoritative:
the first view, or the second?

---

___________________________________________

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-birth-and-evolution-of-judaism

Ancient Jewish History: The Birth and Evolution of Judaism

The Mosaic religion was initially a monolatrous religion; while the Hebrews are enjoined to worship no deity but [the Eternal], there is Vno evidence that the earliest Mosaic religion denied the existence of other gods[/url]. In fact, the account of the migration contains numerous references by the historical characters to other gods, and the [second] law of the Decalogue is, after all, that no gods be put before Yahweh, not that no other gods exist. While controversial among many people, most scholars have concluded that the initial Mosaic religion for about two hundred years was a monolatrous religion. For there is ample evidence in the Hebrew account of the settlement of Palestine, that the Hebrews frequently changed religions, often several times in a single lifetime.

___________________________________

The first view may have been closer to early Judaism, that it was not denying the existence of other gods,
however other gods should not be worshiped

So over time if the other gods are not being worshipped then they appear not to exist

__________________________

Exodus 20:5

לֹֽא־תִשְׁתַּחְוֶ֥֣ה לָהֶ֖ם֮ וְלֹ֣א תָעָבְדֵ֑ם֒ כִּ֣י אָֽנֹכִ֞י יְהוָ֤ה אֱלֹהֶ֙יךָ֙ אֵ֣ל קַנָּ֔א פֹּ֠קֵד עֲוֺ֨ן אָבֹ֧ת עַל־בָּנִ֛ים עַל־שִׁלֵּשִׁ֥ים וְעַל־רִבֵּעִ֖ים לְשֹׂנְאָֽ֑י׃

You shall not bow down to them or serve them. For I the LORD your God am a [jealous] God, visiting the guilt of the parents upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generations of those who reject Me,
_______________________________

It doesn't say other gods do not exist it says don't bow to them

However legend has it that Moses wrote this. Could it be that he didn't believe in the existence of other gods but in order to get the Israelites to believe in Yahweh it was too harsh to tell them who traditionally worshipped these other Gods, not only to not worship them but they didn't even exist?

It reminds me of the Nation of Islam who say God is not a spook in the sky and will not come to save you
that the Black man is God and God came in the person of a man

That is not as harsh as saying there is no God.

Or other groups who say "You are God" .
The word God is not thrown out instead reassigned to the self

However the word is the word, we can only guess the exact intent

---

.


NOI believe their Allah is a physical living human being.

Israel believes the Eternal always existed
including before the Big Bang and all of
the physical material to make and nourish
a microbe much less a human being.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Unsure what's up with the numbering of
לא יהיה לך אלוהים אחרים על פני
no have your elohiym others up in my face
whether last of verse 2 or first of verse 3.

Now wondering if it's an east-west rift.
AlHaTorah is in agreement with Mechon Mamre.
If the Koren Jerusalem Bible assigns 2
then I'd say in Israel it's 2 in the 'west' 3.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

Le Roux
pointed out that there are many other remnants of the ancient Israelites who are living in Africa. Some of these remnants include the Falashas of Ethiopia, the Beni Israel, who are made up of the Wolof and the Mandige communities in Senegal. Le Roux indicates that ancestors of the Beni Israel in Senegal might have been forced to convert to Islam in the 18th century. Lange also argued that recent re-examination of the Oyo-Yoruba tradition, according to which the Oyo-Yoruba were originally Israelites, who were exiled from Israel during the first Assyrian intervention in 841 BCE and during the Assyrian conquest of Samaria in 722
BCE, is logical/QUOTE]


[QUOTE]To further support the arguments on the Israelite origin of the Yoruba culture, Mr. George Lichtblau, an attaché and political officer at the American Embassy in Tel Aviv, believes that there many remnants of the Jews in West Africa.938 Lichtblau worked as a service officer for the U.S. Department of State in a number of francophone West African countries. He interviewed many West Africans he met. He also read the folklores and listened to the oral traditions of many Africans who claimed that their ancestors
originally came from Israel. Lichtblau observed the behaviour of the Africans he interviewed and he
concluded that there are cultural connections between those Africans he observed and the Israelites.940

---

quote:

---

Lichtblau proposed that during the various Jewish Diasporas, Jewish communities were formed in
Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Ethiopia, Western Sudan, Senegal, Mauritania and some parts of southern Africa. there parts of West Africa where the Jewish communities might have have lived
included Gao, Timbuktu, Ghana, Bamako, Agades and Ibadan. Lichtblau pointed out that the
“glassmakers” in Niger claimed their ancestry to Israel and specially Hebron, and that there are similarities with regard the structure of craftsmanship between the glassmakers in Niger and the glassmakers in
Bida

---

0 J. Uwechia, ‘The Black Jews of Africa,’ [2008], 1-9.

M. Le Roux, “Ancient near eastern influence in sub-Saharan Africa,” Ekklesiastikos Pharos, 3, 5.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:


NOI believe their Allah is a physical living human being.

---

yes and the specific type of being they believe Allah to be is a human

Muslims on the other hand, fiercely reject any attempt to make God visible or human.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

I'm not the only person who has pointed out the fact that the image you are sharing is not the authentic. You can't even show any images of those yellow skinned people on any of the walls of the tomb of rekhmire (like how I did). I've shown the actual images from inside of the tomb that prove the images I've shared are the authentic originals, and I've also proven that scholastic authorities also agree and use that same image.

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 



 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

Register 5: tribute procession of vassal countries, Nubia and Retenu,
tomb of Rekhmire
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

No, I asked for an image like this. A photograph of the wall, which shows this particular mural having yellow-skinned people. The actual mural does not show the slaves with the same skin color or hue as the reconstructed painting that you keep posting. It shows them all as dark-skinned, negroid looking people.

Please provide a photograph of the actual wall that shows people with the same skin color as the reconstructed painting you keep posting.


https://ferrelljenkins.blog/2020/03/12/ferrells-favorite-foto-36-egyptian-brick-making/amp/

^^^ And for clarification, I am talking specifically about this image.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
How many times do I have to put in the link over and over again:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/manna4u/32513653582/in/album-72157678333466360/

What's wrong with you? Do you not know how to click a link ?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

I also posted this, so why are you crying?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

Tomb of Rekhmire
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

A flickr link? With an obviously edited image? Are you serious?

Can you post some professional photography like how I did?



https://ferrelljenkins.blog/2020/03/12/ferrells-favorite-foto-36-egyptian-brick-making/amp/

Or a scholastic source that verifies your yellow/orange skinned people as the authentic version of the mural, like how I did? -- this scholastic source verifies that the image I've been posting is the authentic image.

https://www.academia.edu/38207809/With_and_Without_Straw_How_Israelite_Slaves_Made_Bricks
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

You realize that you are posting images from two different versions of the same mural, right?

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:



https://www.flickr.com/photos/manna4u/32513653582/in/photostream/

The tomb-chapel of Rekhmire TT100
Tomb of Rekhmire

TT 100 Abd el-Qurna, Theban necropolis Luxor West-Bank

Fourth register

_____________________________


18 other high quality photos from Rekhmire TT100

https://www.flickr.com/photos/manna4u/albums/72157678333466360

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
[QB] @the lioness

You realize that you are posting images from two different versions of the same mural, right?

---

^^ this is from this link

https://www.flickr.com/photos/manna4u/32513653582/in/album-72157678333466360/


I just snipped it out

and if you click anywhere on that image at the link it will enlarge
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


this may have started as an untouched photo but I have noticed that some of the outline work has been redone. probably with a pen
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/manna4u/32513653582/in/album-72157678333466360/

this is a higher quality image from the same link to the larger scene

what this shows is two different ethnic groups two men in front have orange elements in their skin as well as light hair. The man's hair on the right is blocked by the bucket
The man in the back bending down is a darker Sudanese
His skin tone is drake brown with some reddish elements but not that orange
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
@Tukuler

do you consider hairy chest man a probable Semitic language speaker?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Huh?

I answered that in some detail.

Did I goof up posting it or something?

R u try n 2 gaslite me? It's right here

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=000431;p=5#000202

Don't you go back and reread these pages days
later to see what may've been missed due to
hasty debate driven biased skim reading?

I do.

Sometimes some people make edits too adding imgs, touching up grammar and do. After all thar be
surfers from the future here from a friendly
search engine travel agency.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Huh?

I answered that in some detail.

Did I goof up posting it or something?

R u try n gaslite me? It's right here

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=000431;p=5#000202

Don't you go back and reread these pages days
later to see what may've been missed due to
hasty debate driven biased skim reading?

---

You said maybe a Northern Syrian. If that is the case would he instantly be a Semitic speaker for sure?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
also
the term Aamu. Do you consider that defined by geographic boundaries and/or particular cultures?

wikipedia says:
__________________________

Aamu (Egyptian language: '𓂝𓄿𓅓𓅱' ꜥꜣmw) was an Egyptian name used to designate Western Asiatic foreigners in antiquity.It is generally translated as "Western Asiatic", but suggestions have been made these could be identical with the Canaanites or the Amorites.
__________________________

Do you agree ?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Aamw in my estimation after all these years is used
to designate peoples from Egypt/Sinai to Anatolia
and east thereof in generic terms. Geography is
the umbrella not language or presumed biblico-
linguist

I don't see how the 19th century term Asiatic
excludes Canaanites or Amorites. I'd hafta
check into how much of the peninsula was
known to AE before shooting from the hip
and blasting my toe.


There are massive wall inscriptions listing Aamw
by the shi load in cartouche looking lozenges.
Searching Budge's dictionary for Aamw (cut his
spelling/glyph of Aamw and paste it or use the
gazeteer at the end of vol 2.

Aamw include IE and Unclassified speakers as well as Semites.

AEL Book of Gates Aamw correspond to the later
Hebrew book B*reshiyth b*nei K*na'an though I
think some 18th/19th century 'Egyptologist'
says Assyrians are on one tomb mural.

=-=-=

Now what's your take on Aamu?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
There's no assured way to know what the brick
crafters or register 4 processionals speak
w/o asking them. Any one of them may've
spoke an Indo-European or Altaic tongue,
Kartvelian, even Uralic even.

I still posit the Levant was peopled
by folk north of Daryal Gorge attracted
south of the Rock to the progressive
stone to metal cultures after Catal
Huyuk or whatever they call it now
petered out.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=001282;p=1#000019

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Huh?

I answered that in some detail.

Did I goof up posting it or something?

R u try n gaslite me? It's right here

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=000431;p=5#000202

Don't you go back and reread these pages days
later to see what may've been missed due to
hasty debate driven biased skim reading?

---

You said maybe a Northern Syrian. If that is the case would he instantly be a Semitic speaker for sure?

---

.

Kitty
Take time. Review Rekkmire TT100 inclusive threads
detailing the procession and note registers 4 & 5. please.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
I was looking at the Aamu in the wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aamu

they have three versions
on the left from Khnumhotep II,
at right Book of Gates, appears to be Seti I
both have T 14, throwstick

However in the center is from Griffith 1898, the birds are there but instead of T 14 it's one of the D's, an arm
Could be D 40 forearm with stick
I suppose it still corresponds then
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

Asiatics in battle scene, tomb of Amenhotep II 15th century BCE from Thebes el-Asasif sandstone

Could any of them be possible Hebrews?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Chronologically too early for Israelites if that's what you mean by Hebrew.

Hebrew is acknowledged as the language of Canaan
by one of the Israelite 'prophetic' books. Israel
had a misswah to wear ssiyssiyth. These are the
tassels/pom-poms you see on Aamw as in Seti I's
BG 4:5.

If looking for possible Canaan coastal pre-Israelites
it's Aamw flying ssiyssiyth in four corner fashion
no matter the mural or faience tile or 3D plastic art.


=-=-=-=


Honestly surprised you missed the procession I'm
talking about since this round of inquiry initiated
from you pointing out Retjen. It mustabeen simmering
backburner someplace in your subconscious.

https://www.google.com/search?q=rekhmire+site:egyptsearch.com&rlz=1C1SQJL_enUS855US865&source=lnms&tbm=isch

https://www.google.com/search?q=aamw+rekhmire+site%3Aegyptsearch.com&tbm=isch
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
But could they be ancestors of the Israelites?

We can also see how people wanting to do, I suppose confirmation bias, looking at Egyptian art for biblical correspondences, so if in this case looking for Hebrews might also be looking for figures in apparent working conditions that might be enslavement to verify the biblical narrative in Exodus

=-=-=-=

I was pointing out Retjenu because they are already established in Rekhmire so the question was could that brick maker be a Retjenu without the garment.
However if the glyphs are clearly labeling him Aamu and clearly labeling the procession Retjenu I abandoned that inquiry

=-=-=-=

Also of note these fallen warriors in Amenhotep II correspond to Book of Gates type Aamu, black hair that bunches up in the back, perhaps loose curls doing this and prominent beads.
However that does not match this brick maker closely. So if he is an Aamu he is a quite different one
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
< grumpy older man >
Grrrrrrrrrrrr!!! Aamu is generic, exactly as
Levantine is generic, including every tribe
and nation from black membered Shasu in
the Sinai Negeb Jordan south all the way up to
white Leuco-Syrians in the Levantine Turkey north,
that whole swath and on east.

Why should a Leuco-Syrian or Sashu have to
dress as a coastal Canaanite to be Aamw.
Do Canadians and Americans need a sombrero
to be North American?


< throwing hands heavenward >

I give up

Time-out for music scotch and cigar

Let it all percolate 24 hrs or so theLioness
to me you're needlesssly confusing yourself
and didn't study the details I posted.

Since you first asked above on this page
I've agreed Old Brickwright is Retjenu
more n likely because Retjenu are
explicitly id-ed in reg 4 of the
procession Retjenu and northwards.

Anything about pre -600 Israelites is pure
speculation. Merneptah recorded an YSR3R
people he claims to have decimated. That's
it. The one and only AE pharaonic notice
of maybe Israel. Manetho and Cheremon
are post -600.

Of course you're entitled to your own
interpretation as are all researchers.
Don't let my takes interfere with what
you boil things down to be.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

I've agreed Old Brickwright is Retjenu
more n likely because Retjenu are
explicitly id-ed in reg 4 of the
procession Retjenu and northwards.

---

I didn't realize you thought he could be Retjenu

They say the blond trait is growing rarer if that is what is going on with the hair. Today one doesn't associate it with Middle Eastern people but back then it could have been in the region but is seems a mystery where in the Levant might correlate.
Today the Top 10 countries with the most pure blonde hair: 1. Finland 58% , 2. Sweden 54%, 3. Norway 48%, 4. Estonia... etc

However Tacitus was describing Germania as Reddish but 2nd century
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
North and hi elevations by logic where else?

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=006964#000008

Here jog yer own memry banx

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008711;p=2#000053 ff


=-=-=

Pale northern (Arvad) and dark southern
modal complexions as per the ancients?

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


https://www.flickr.com/photos/manna4u/32513653582/in/album-72157678333466360/

this is a higher quality image from the same link to the larger scene

what this shows is two different ethnic groups two men in front have orange elements in their skin as well as light hair. The man's hair on the right is blocked by the bucket
The man in the back bending down is a darker Sudanese
His skin tone is drake brown with some reddish elements but not that orange

---

This image is not authentic. This is a reconstructed image. You will not find this image anywhere in the Tomb of Rekhmire, the authentic image depicts them all with dark brown skin.

I've told and shown you this numerous times, I've given a scholastic source as well as professional photographs yet for some reason you keep reosting this yellow-skinned nonsense.

Then you contradict yourself by posting an isolated part of the authentic image depicting one of the dark brown skinned men as if he fits into the version of the painting with the yellow-skinned people.

Do you even realize what you are doing?
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
REPOST

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

A flickr link? With an obviously edited image? Are you serious?

Can you post some professional photography like how I did?



https://ferrelljenkins.blog/2020/03/12/ferrells-favorite-foto-36-egyptian-brick-making/amp/

Or a scholastic source that verifies your yellow/orange skinned people as the authentic version of the mural, like how I did? -- this scholastic source verifies that the image I've been posting is the authentic image.

https://www.academia.edu/38207809/With_and_Without_Straw_How_Israelite_Slaves_Made_Bricks

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/manna4u/32513653582/in/album-72157678333466360/
.

.
camera settings for the above picture



Enlargement from the photograph of the wall above, Retinu worker (Asiatic)
.


.


Reconstruction illustration on paper by Brickmakers, Tomb of Rekhmire Nina de Garis Davies (1881–1965)
Metropolitan Museum


https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/544649

______________________________

At top a photograph of the tomb wall in Luxor
and the the bottom a portion of it copied for a museum illustration by Nina de Garis Davies. She only did this portion of the scene but has other illustrations of other scenes at Rekhmire also
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
https://ferrelljenkins.blog/2020/03/12/ferrells-favorite-foto-36-egyptian-brick-making/amp/

Ferrell Jenkins
1 year ago
Normally I make multiple photos of any scene when possible, especially if there is a good chance I will not get a second opportunity. Our photo today is literally one of a kind. It is from the tomb of Rekhmire in the Valley of the Nobles in Egypt. While my group visited the Valley of the Kings our guide arranged transportation for me to visit this unique tomb which shows the process of brick-making in ancient Egypt.

A guard at the tomb allowed me to enter and make ONE photo. I gave him a tip of $5.00. I asked to make another photo, but he showed no interest in a second payment. This is my only photo and I was pleased with it.



this photo was made in the somewhat dimly lit tomb. Slightly more light is falling within the circle. If you look where his name is, Ferrell Jenkins you can see it starting to get darker there.
Compare the background in the scene inside the circle to the background in the circle to the background to right of it. You can see how the lighting is not evenly spread.
The photo picks up some nice texture on the blank raw wall and also on the edges of the crumbled plaster layer with the painting on it


Enlargement of a portion of the above, can't get good detail here
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Biblical archaeology

Biblical archaeology is an academic school and a subset of Biblical studies and Levantine archaeology. Biblical archaeology studies archaeological sites from the Ancient Near East and especially the Holy Land (also known as Palestine, Land of Israel and Canaan), from biblical times.

Biblical archaeology emerged in the late 19th century, by British and American archaeologists, with the aim of confirming the historicity of the Bible. Between the 1920s, right after World War I, when Palestine came under British rule and the 1960s, biblical archaeology became the dominant American school of Levantine archaeology, lead by figures such as William F. Albright and G. Ernest Wright. The work was mostly funded by churches and headed by theologists
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

So here we have another legit photo but the detail is better. You can see his lighter chest/stomach hair here
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
^^^ it's grey hair ... this is an old man.. his profile reminds me of the Yoruban poet Odia Ofeimun




I just see different types of Africans in these drawings.. the Egyptian overseerer is darker than the African dudes in leopard loin clothes..
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
^^^ it's grey hair ... this is an old man..

---

No, it's not an old man, not an African
and not an Israelite.
These are captive foreigners as the Rekhmire tomb text describes

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:


I just see different types of Africans in these drawings..

---

Retenus or Aamus are Levantines not Africans

And if they were Africans they would be Africans neighboring Egypt
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

At top the Retjenu (Retenu), Asiatics
coming from the copper bearing areas in this scene
also from Rekhmire

Register 5: The captives of vassal countries, Nubia and Retenu,
tomb of Rekhmire

tomb text:
Over Gold Weighing
{Reckoning1 of the gold , in order to fulfil all business of the
daily stipulation. Their number is myriads of hundred-thousands;
before the vizier . . . . . . . Rekhmire.
Over Goldsmiths and Silversmiths
Making all vessels for the divine limbs; multiplying vases of gold
and silver in every (style of) workmanship that endures forever.
Over Coppersmiths
755. Bringing the Asiatic copper which his majesty captured in the
victories in Retenu, in order to [cast] the [two doors] of the temple of
Amon in Karnak. Its pavement was overlaid with gold like the horizon
of heaven; by the governor of the (residence) city, and vizier.
They say: "The king, beautiful in monuments, Menkheperre (Thutmose 111), given life forever; (as) he is (so) they are forever. . . . . . . . He repeats monuments in the house of his father."


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
The leading throw stick can stand for an A sound
As a determinative it reps belligerent foreigner.


=-=-=


Already knowing Hebrew was a help in learning the glyphs
which I did via a gift from 3rd wife's library back in the 80s

Budge Egyptian Language https://archive.org/details/egyptianlanguage0000budg

Not hi-brow or like a college foreign language book it's
'easy' and it's hightime you seriously learned the glyphs
after commenting on them a full decade now w/o any study. So
- choose your nug
- borrow the book
- study to learn the 'glyphabet'


Don't delay
Start today
20 min - 1/2 hour a day

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
I was looking at the Aamu in the wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aamu

they have three versions
on the left from Khnumhotep II,
at right Book of Gates, appears to be Seti I
both have T 14, throwstick

However in the center is from Griffith 1898, the birds are there but instead of T 14 it's one of the D's, an arm
Could be D 40 forearm with stick
I suppose it still corresponds then

---

.




 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
thanks for the info
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
The southern foreigner's are wearing what over a
decade ago I coined 'the patented Ta-Seti briefs'.



At the time ES was posting findings on them in
Egyptian graves where Sudan culture bearers
were interred.

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22taseti+briefs%22

in pahtickuhlahlee http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=005742#000033


=-=-=


reserved for xliteration of glyphs behind
Oldman Retjenu Brickwright in light of the
two xlations above, unless I get lazy and
just lay back n njoy t/day hah

initial look from a cupla days ago
just using Vygus2012 (i dun like 2018)
this one's not easy at all
and's y earlier I left it at

The text just says the scene is some slaves from a raid/war
making bricks to repair some workshops in Amun's temple.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
The southern foreigner's are wearing what over a
decade ago I called 'the patented Ta-Seti briefs'.
At the time ES was posting findings on them in
Egyptian graves where Sudan culture bearers
were interred.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=006964


=-=-=


reserved for xliteration of glyphs behind
Oldman Retjenu Brickwright in light of the
two xlations above, unless I get lazy and
just lay back n njoy t/day hah

initial look from a cupla days ago
just using Vygus2012 (i dun like 2018)
this one's not easy at all
and's y earlier I left it at

The text just says the scene is some slaves from a raid/war
making bricks to repair some workshops in Amun's temple.

---

https://www.flickr.com/photos/manna4u/32513653582/in/album-72157678333466360/

same scene more text to the right
(also more test lower left but in poor condition)



My post with the procession has the Breasted translation, must be text on some part of the larger scene, register 4
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Please note the orig link was to a thread all the
excellent images disappeared from and I don't
have a saved copy.

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22taseti+briefs%22


Please update replies as necessary and ain't
you compose this, w/a xlate I pretty much agree?
The Manna4u underexposed washed out colors are
hype> atrocious <hype -- everybody's a critic





More natural in my eyes tho darker than Nina's facs.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

The underexposed washed out colors

---

If a photo is too light, it is overexposed when too much light is recorded.
Overexposure can be used to advantage when photographing dark scenes and objects. By slightly overexposing (no more than one full stop), you can bring out details

Not like this >

this is an enlargement of the Ferell Jenkins, it's darker and we can see the lack of detail
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


Different photo here, same scene, with this more exposed photo we can see a thin line like the contour of the right forearm here against the body
or other cases where detail could be important
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
A'aight I ain't no photographer


The Farrell was immediately available but
others showing Aamw filling container and
napping Egy foreman darker than the avg
Nehesi exist or I'm trippin

Ya, hartis. Da 1 Taz posted, startin all d'fuss.
The one you dismiss cos of embellished outlines.


https://ancientegyptmusuemmarijejasmine.weebly.com/slaves.html

Doubt it got dirty after Nina for Above Photographer
then cleaned for Manna4u but still dirty for AP?


Umm, has something gone on here?
The Jamaicans have a word for it ... "uckery".
Ah dang, I usta trust Nina's authenticity,
til now. Live & learn.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:


More natural in my eyes tho darker than Nina's facs.

---

I assume you realize you made this remark in a post that did not include the Nina
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Yeah

but Nina done been mentioned and should be retained
no need to reintroduce every time referred to
This ES not Sesame St right?

One following the discussion has read and seen
Nina's facs w/t noticeable lighter Aamw leg in
front of a darker Nehesi forearm.

Yet we have two separate presumed amateur snaps
taken in the tomb clearly showing a noticeably
darker Aamw leg in front the lighter Nehesi forearm.

VERSUS

Manna4u w/his light-brighter than Nina snap.


What's that PawnBroker's shingle? Two to One?

Two unlike Nina
to
One like Nina's.

=-=-=


Constructively, u coulda posted all four reduced
to under 600 wide since u been being a good
discussant colleague not a dissin cussin debater.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:


Ya, hartis. Da 1 Taz posted, startin all d'fuss.
The one you dismiss cos of embellished outlines.

---

I don't dismiss it entirely. It's when somebody keeps saying what I'm posting is a reconstruction and it's not, then I am going to look at what they are posting. It seems to be a photo but tricked out a little
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/manna4u/32513653582/in/photostream/

I wouldn't call this a washed out photo because the darker figures remain dark.
The tombs are not brightly lit so if you want more detail you have use a higher exposure, more light. You could says it is slightly overexposed to capture certain details (which can be best appreciated at the link where it enlarges on clicking)

What this photo shows is a difference on the shade of different figures and hair color.
If the photo was merely brighter, those differences would not be showing, all the figures would look lighter to the same degree

That on this wall, this particular figure is lighter than the others and this difference is probably just as noticeable when it was first painted. This is consistent with the Retenu procession in the other scene same tomb.
Under dimmer conditions this difference appears to be less but it isn't, that is the lighting conditions
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
None of us were present at either of the shoots.
Details are speculation unless given by 'graphers.

The same amateur photographer will
offer the same lighting/exposure
consistently for each wall same
tomb same shoot session, I'd
suspect.

Still 2:1 against Manna4u

Look at anything black colored
I see it very ink-wash-out in a
light-bright exposed not right
photo

No other 21st century snaps are
so blase and the one of museum




quality sinks it for me ipso facto
other courts decide what they will
respectfully continue to disagree
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
[QB] None of us were present at either of the shoots.
Details are speculation unless given by 'graphers.

---

the details are shown on each of the photos if you scroll down

https://www.flickr.com/photos/manna4u/32691209645/in/photostream/

and you can see the ISO is different as you move left or right to each new picture in the same series.


______________________________
ISO measures the sensitivity of the image sensor.
The lower the number, the less sensitive your camera is to light and the finer the resulting grain.

Higher numbers mean your sensor is more sensitive to light, and this allows you to use your camera in darker situations.




^^ this is not a random example, it's the specs, on the website for that particular photo, ISO = 900>
Kairo4u has hundreds of photos in the tombs, high resolution where when you click to enlarge at the site the detail is good

look at the top photo credit on this:
https://www.ancient.eu/Apophis/
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
@Tukuler what other Egyptians paintings do you know of that depict Aamu working?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
I don't get it.

Didn't I say unless the 'grapher gives it up
it's speculation. Anyone seriously following
the discussion has already seen your posting
of Manna4U's settings seen when visiting his
site.

If you had produced the other two 21st c
picture takers photo data it'd move the
conversation forward.

I'm grateful for the work on your part so far.


As said, I know nothing about cameras digital
or not, but is the f stop range 24-70 mm and
the snap was taken at f stop 24 mm (an extreme)?

https://photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-d800

I welcome any infos from anyone who knows about it.
I don't, and don't want to put down any more probable
gobbledeegook about lens setting than I already may have
as in the paragraph where I just confused two different
specs thinking them one (hoo boy).

So someone in the know please explain exactly what this tells us please

NIKON D800 + 24-70mm f/2.8 @ 24mm, ISO 900, 1/60, f/5.6

Don't have time or bkgrnd to understand what's at
https://photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-d800
bottom powder blue 'index'

Even given Mannu4u's specs there's no idea if he
used pa processing tool like Lightroom to alter
tone.


=-=-=

Don't have nor seen a volume on The Aamw Presence
in Dynastic Egypt. I think it was before you got
here when I wanted to get down to ID-ing Aamw
lineage people in AE art but it was ill received
due to the 100% black AE hive mind that if a corn
silk blond is wearing AE attire ... ITSA BLK.
Last time I tried is @

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=010090;p=1


Michelowski's()? huge book started my AE art journey
though Views of the Bible World was my intro to the
Herd of Ra as a kiddi kid kid. CoViD just about killed
physical library use. Most yall only use web resources.

To aid your research tramp thru the trove of online art.


I'd like to open the question addressed to me
for any and all to take a shot at it if that's OK
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Here's the difference Lightroom makes


NIKON D800 + 24mm f/1.4 @ 24mm, ISO 160, 1/200, f/2.8



Some colors turned out lighter the rest remained the same.
Yes more detail but at the expense of color fidelity.
Pay attention to the brick facade colors red manila and beige.
Which ones retain their color?
Which are lightened so as to look a different tone re the original?

24mm doen't yield lite-brite black ink-washed out imgs, eh?


♫ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzTtU7_5lyg
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
This has some nice pics, see page 372, the khaemwaset linked and many others

Creativity and Innovation in the Reign of Hatshepsut

https://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/saoc69.pdf
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Biblical archaeology


Biblical archaeology emerged in the late 19th century, by British and American archaeologists,
with the aim of confirming the historicity of the Bible. Between the 1920s, right after World War I, when Palestine came under British rule and the 1960s, biblical archaeology became the dominant American school of Levantine archaeology, lead by figures such as William F. Albright and G. Ernest Wright. The work was mostly funded by churches and headed by theologists.
____________________________________

O.k. not objective science, it's a religious agenda

@Tukuler,
If two people had the same agenda, we might still say one has a better methodology than the other.

So if the agenda is "the Egyptians must have depicted Hebrew slaves, the bible says they were there"

If anybody makes an honest attempt to try to find a picture of a Hebrew slave on tomb walls they would have to begin with the earliest dynasty that would correspond in time period to the Israelites.
What do you consider that to be?

Obviously we can look at various Levantines depicted in various tombs but many would be earlier than the Israelites, so my question would also have to be bound by the right time period, excluding many tombs.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

quote:

---

Yoruba posit indigenous origins in
Nigeria. Ethnology archaeology and
genomics support that.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008915


Short and sweet on the genome tip
quote:


Yeah them two guys Moorjani^ and Price* showed W Afr genomes in biblical Israelites.

*
Beduin 9% YRI 90 generations ago
inferred dates of 60–90 generations
correspond to about 2,000–4,000 years ago


^
Iraqi Jews 4.5% W Afr ancestry 93-137 generations ago
3–5% sub-Saharan African ancestry in the 8 diverse Jewish groups
date of the mixture of 72 generations (∼2,000 years assuming 29 years per generation)
Iraqi Jews —who are thought to descend at least in part from Jews who were exiled to Babylon about 2,600 years ago— share the signal of African admixture.

---

I speak of Oyo Yoruba only... the DNA for Yoruba that we see in these gene studies quoted endlessly was taken from Ibadan.. a notorious slaving hub for 200 years... a soup of indigenous west African ethnicity now called "Yoruba"

These some Oyo Yoruba where reported to have hazel eyes...

---

quote:

---

Elmaestro
^What's also interesting is the second admixture event (blue highlight) dated around 900ya, I couldn't confidently say how this event makes sense. right now my best guess that some of the Yoruba have ancestry from a Nomadic Africans and Iberians have respectable YRI-like(with RHG) admixture.aDNA from Africa is game changing.... The Fst scores from fregel et al actually makes sense

---

.


http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009984
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Good snippet on diff btween
Levantine archaeology (no priors)
Biblical archaeology (a farce distorting Levantine archaeology for white Christianity)

=-=-=

Leading questions make for guided in tune answers.
Like any ancient document (Iliad eg) the writings
left by ancient 'religionists' is no more factual
and 'true' than those left by ancient mythographers.
Clues and pointers for likely spots to dig are in
them and they are factual/true most of the time as
far as that goes.


Archaeology should be conducted to amass and analyze
old buried stuff. Now white society has moved beyond
any semblance of "so the Bible say". Honest work can
be done but believers hamper the endeavors.


Though addressed to me I'd like anybody
who wants to to chime in on irrational
vs rational archaeology in the 'Mideast'
should be the same as archaeology in
anywhere else on earth whose ppls do
not share the oxymoronic Judeo-Christian
weltanshauung. For some reason they leave
Islam out though Europe owes an inestimable
debt to Islamic science and culture. And now
whites go as far as making themselves and
'Mideasterners' one people in genomics but
something completely different political
and socially.

Arabs, the redwhiteblack people who are
white only when it comes to anthropology
and the US census .

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Biblical archaeology


Biblical archaeology emerged in the late 19th century, by British and American archaeologists,
with the aim of confirming the historicity of the Bible. Between the 1920s, right after World War I, when Palestine came under British rule and the 1960s, biblical archaeology became the dominant American school of Levantine archaeology, lead by figures such as William F. Albright and G. Ernest Wright. The work was mostly funded by churches and headed by theologists.
____________________________________

O.k. not objective science, it's a religious agenda

@Tukuler,
If two people had the same agenda, we might still say one has a better methodology than the other.

So if the agenda is "the Egyptians must have depicted Hebrew slaves, the bible says they were there"

If anybody makes an honest attempt to try to find a picture of a Hebrew slave on tomb walls they would have to begin with the earliest dynasty that would correspond in time period to the Israelites.
What do you consider that to be?

Obviously we can look at various Levantines depicted in various tombs but many would be earlier than the Israelites, so my question would also have to be bound by the right time period, excluding many tombs.

---

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
That any 'Hebrews' were enslaved as an ethnicity in
pharaonic Egypt is a religious assumption due to the
Hebrew book Sh*moth.

No people contemporaneous to the time period as in
the Sh*moth narrative have left any record of the
miraculous events therein. Some of the plagues
were amplifications of natural Egyptian nature.
Something like the 1st born all dropping dead
overnight. Ah well, no network nightly news
so nobody outside Egypt was privvy. RRRRight.

200,000 fighting age men plus
their parents wives children
possessions etc w/no food supply
camped in a Sinai peninsula wastelands
long enough for the slave mentality
generation to all die out
leave not a one single solitary
archaeological artifact of waste
or territorial occupation.

What was the headcount of AE,
Crete, Phoenicia, and them?


That's my thought.
What do you believe?
How do other ESer feel about it?

quote:

---

So if the agenda is "the Egyptians must have depicted Hebrew slaves, the bible says they were there"

If anybody makes an honest attempt to try to find a picture of a Hebrew slave on tomb walls they would have to begin with the earliest dynasty that would correspond in time period to the Israelites.
What do you consider that to be?

---

.


"So the Bible say" is so passe.
Other ancient records, what do they say?


Not sorry to say I can be of no service.
Jewish chronologies as in the Sedher `Olam
of course have dates for all 210 years
of Ya`aqob and family and ~3 generations
of his descendants in Egypt.

Biblical 'archeaologists' argue and adjust real
historic dates to fit the Bible or alter the
Seder Olam dates to fit the archaeology.
[Astronomy settles the issue for some datings]


I'm not about to go thru hoops attempting
to net, bring home, and de-feather imaginary
wild geese. [That's the softest way I can put
it. Now if this were a Judaic site I would be
forced to confirm the narrative and probably
could do a good enough job for the S&P and
the modern orthodox to retain faith while
dealing with the facts.]
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
Originally posted by lioness:
So if the agenda is "the Egyptians must have depicted Hebrew slaves, the bible says they were there"

If anybody makes an honest attempt to try to find a picture of a Hebrew slave on tomb walls they would have to begin with the earliest dynasty that would correspond in time period to the Israelites.
What do you consider that to be?

Obviously we can look at various Levantines depicted in various tombs but many would be earlier than the Israelites, so my question would also have to be bound by the right time period, excluding many tombs.

They couldn't;t begin with the earliest Israelite's because Moses and co
are generally dated much later. What time period to you propose for the earliest
Israelites? And what are the earliest depictions of Levantines in Egyptian bondage?


Re slavery, some hereditarian religio types have come up with a diffusionist
twist, using the "migration from Jerusalem" meme. Namely, that those
who migrated out from Jerusalem to Africa, were actually negro servitors. Under this
approach, the advanced Caucasoid branch of the Hebrew departed into the "Middle East"
and Europe, while the negro branch, went west, into deepest, dahkest Africa.

Since old references seem to be all the rage, this is contradicted by
ancient Roman historian Tacitus, who in his famous "Jew diss" in his Book V,
to explain the Roman conquest of Jerusalem, discusses various theories
of Jew origin, one of them being that the Jews are descended
from various Ethiopians. QUOTE:

"Many assure us that the Jews are descended from those Ethiopians who were driven by fear and hatred to emigrate from their home country when Cepheus was king.note[According to Greek legend, Cepheus was king of Ethiopia, i.e., the country of the "burnt face people". His daughter Andromeda was married to the hero Perseus.] .."
-Tacitus, Book V
https://www.livius.org/sources/content/tacitus/tacitus-on-the-jews/

If Tacitus is right on the Ethiops then a 3rd possibility emerges linked with the
teachings of various Black Murrish groups. That is- the "true Jews" are those
who went into Africa, but the "false Jews" are those who went into
the Middle East and Canaan. A more ambiguous syncretic version has been
argued by Isa Muhammed and his "Nuwaubian Moors" incorporating a
"Nubian Islamic Hebrew" theory into the mix. Much detail is housed in
the "Nineteen Bulletins" of Nuwaubian faith issued by Muhammed, aka Dwight York..
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

You are posting images from a flickr link. Flickr is an image hosting website where users can upload images (edited images as well).

I've asked you several times to post a link to a scholastic source or authority, LIKE HOW I DID, that uses the version of yellow-skinned semites that you keep spamming all throughout this thread...

but each time you respond with the same link to that random person's flickr profile who uploded that reconstructed version of the actual mural.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Cepheus' Aithiopia is Joppa (ie Yaffo,
Tel Aviv) in today's Israel/Palestine.
So the Pagan Greek 'Bible' say

EgyptSearch Forums » Egyptology » Joppa (Yaffa/Tel Aviv) = a Greek Aithiopia
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=007123

Coincidentally, Cyprus is on the African
tectonic plate as are Phoenicia & Canaan
with Lower Egypt. The Peloponnese (Danaus)
is on the Eurasian plate. Genomics show
Gambian Fulani exemplified ancestry in
Mycenaea and HLA supports Fulani gene
factors in modern Greece.

[ scouring Basic DB for visual ]


=-=-=


theLioness' statement
"the earliest dynasty that would correspond in time period to the Israelites"
is a valid methodology.
Me? I'd do it top down
in true archaeology style
digging down to uncover
layers from suspected
latest dynasty to
earliest dynasty
of same set of
findings.


Were it earliest Israelites rather than
earliest Egyptian dynasty hosting Israelites
it'd still be correct.

Ya`aqob is Israel. The earliest Israelites are
his nuclear family. He and all of them "loaded
up the truck and they moved to Beverly" so to
speak.

It was in Egypt the family of Israel grew
into the people Israel according to Tanakh.
By happenstance the earliest dynasty
corresponds to the earliest Israelites.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

You are posting images from a flickr link. Flickr is an image hosting website where users can upload images (edited images as well).

I've asked you several times to post a link to a scholastic source or authority, LIKE HOW I DID, that uses the version of yellow-skinned semites that you keep spamming all throughout this thread...

but each time [b] you respond with the same link to that random person's flickr profile who uploded that reconstructed version of the actual mural.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

---

Tazarah, we've been discussing this scene from Rekhmire for a couple of days.
Suppose you were in Egypt right now standing in front of this wall and somebody asked who "who are the people in this scene?"
What would be your basic answer to that be?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Good snippet on diff btween
Levantine archaeology (no priors)
Biblical archaeology (a farce distorting Levantine archaeology for white Christianity)

---

The founder of Biblical Archaeology Review, Hershel Shanks died this year and he was Jewish. Hershel Shanks started the magazine in 1975. "Within 10 years, he was sending new issues to more than 100,000 subscribers. Nearly a third of his readers were evangelicals."

So whether it be white Jews, white Christians or Black Hebrew Israelites, etc any such people might be interested in confirming the historicity of the Bible.
So this type of Archaeology approach could overlap common cause interest between groups who may have big disagreements in other matters


https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2021/february/died-hershel-shanks-biblical-archaeology-review-dead-sea-sc.html
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

Nice deflection.

You can't just post unauthentic images and then expect people to not say anything about them, or not ask you to prove they are real. You've been spamming this thread with those images of yellow skinned people for days and not once have you provided a scholastic source or authority that validates the authenticity of them.

The original images of the mural depicts the people with brown to dark brown skin.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

Coincidentally, Cyprus is on the African
tectonic plate as are Phoenicia & Canaan
with Lower Egypt. The Peloponnese (Danaus)
is on the Eurasian plate. Genomics show
Gambian Fulani exemplified ancestry in
Mycenaea and HLA supports Fulani gene
factors in modern Greece .

---

quote:

---

Caphtor (Hebrew: כפתור‎) is a locality mentioned in the Bible, in which its people are called Caphtorites or Caphtorim and are named as a division of the ancient Egyptians .[1] Caphtor is also mentioned in ancient inscriptions from Egypt, Mari, and Ugarit. Jewish sources placed Caphtor in the region of Pelusium, though modern sources tend to associate it with localities such as Cilicia, Cyprus, or Crete

---

The second from the right is a Keftiu Caphtor (Hebrew:)


I have seen a half Cypriot's ancestry and she had Nigeria as a trace region with Middle Eastern i.e. Egypt and Levant as a major component..

If you look at old pics of indigenous Cypriots they look Bedouin-ish..
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Anyone ever seen this one before?


 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Anyone ever seen this one before?

---

Others and I have posted this countless of times.

posted 22 December, 2015 04:22
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Anyone ever seen this one before?

---

Others and I have posted this countless of times.

posted 22 December, 2015 04:22

---

Nice, thank you for that. So the caption on the one I posted is incorrect? According to your knowledge, what is his nationality?
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Anyone ever seen this one before?

---

Others and I have posted this countless of times.

posted 22 December, 2015 04:22

---

Nice, thank you for that. So the caption on the one I posted is incorrect? According to your knowledge, what is his nationality?

---

Mike produced that caption. But technically Syria is in the Levant.

posted 26 May, 2017 02:57

"A mid 2nd Millennium BCE painted limestone stele showing a Syrian mercenary drinking beer. The mercenary;s name is Terura and his wife's name is Arbura. His facial features and dress clearly identify him as a Syrian. While his wife is also Syrian, she wears the traditional Egyptian attire and wig. Terura drinks wine (less probably beer) through a long curved lead tube from an amphora. The long lance behind him and the dagger in his belt suggest that he is a soldier; Syrian mercenaries were incorporated in large number in the Egyptian army during the New Kingdom.

The scene reflects a festive event and that the stele was placed in a house rather than inside a tomb. Probably from Amarna, Egypt. New Kingdom, 18th Dynasty, reign of Amenhotep IV/Akhenaten), 1351-1334 BCE. It is on display at the Neues Museum, Berlin, Germany."
https://www.ancient.eu/image/11155/egyptian-stele-of-a-syrian-mercenary/
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
[qb] Anyone ever seen this one before?

---

Others and I have posted this countless of times.

posted 22 December, 2015 04:22

---

Nice, thank you for that. So the caption on the one I posted is incorrect? According to your knowledge, what is his nationality?

---

Mike produced that caption. But technically Syria is in the Levant.

---

Thank you for this!
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

You are posting images from a flickr link. Flickr is an image hosting website where users can upload images (edited images as well).

I've asked you several times to post a link to a scholastic source or authority, LIKE HOW I DID, that uses the version of yellow-skinned semites that you keep spamming all throughout this thread...

but each time [b] you respond with the same link to that random person's flickr profile who uploded that reconstructed version of the actual mural.

---

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tazarah:





Tazarah I'm looking at the title of this thread:

Judaism was the Religion of Ancient Black [West] Africans"

Have we abandoned the topic and now the topic ?

We are now discussing the quality of photographs.
That's o.k, this is your thread but that is not the ordinal theme of this thread.
My question is at this point why should we care about this particular scene from Rekhmire?
Above are images from Rekhmire you posted. The lower two are just enlargements.

We can go back to talking about photo quality if you want to but first please let us know, if you were in Egypt right now standing in front of this wall in person and photos of it were irrelevant
and somebody asked who "who are the people in this scene?"
What would be your basic answer to that be?

Why are we talking about this scene? Has the topic become
"Inspecting the differences of differences in photos of the same scene of Egyptian wall paintings"

Suppose it was decided the above, the ones you posted are the best. O.k. fine but who are they ? Who is in the scene?
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

You are the one who started spam posting images and murals, I simply posted the one from Rekhmire in response to you.

Now you want to change the subject instead of dealing with the fact that no credible authorities or institutions validate the authenticity of the images that you are sharing.

It's not about photo quality, it's about authenticity. I've asked you several times to provide a scholastic source or authority that validates the images you are using and each time you try to deflect or change the subject.

I'm 100% positive you understand what is being asked of you, but for some reason you continuously choose to play dumb.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

You are the one who started spam posting images and murals, I simply posted the one from Rekhmire in response to you.

Now you want to change the subject instead of dealing with the fact that no credible authorities or institutions validate the authenticity of the images that you are sharing.

It's not about photo quality, it's about authenticity. I've asked you several times to provide a scholastic source or authority that validates the images you are using and each time you try to deflect or change the subject.

I'm 100% positive you understand what is being asked of you, but for some reason you continuously choose to play dumb.

---

I never claimed to have posted images from a scholarly source. The photos are from an Egyptian guide in Cairo who takes a lot of picture in the tombs. Take it or leave it.









So I'm not changing any subject. I posted photos and never claimed they were from a scholarly source and I have repeatedly linked my source.

It seems now you are afraid to continue to claim the above scene depicts Israelites. Am I correct or are you going to continue to hide from this question?

Look above, this are your images.

Fine, are they are are they not Israelites in your opinion or are you going to continue to waste everybody's time ? Look at your own thread title it has Judaism in the title or have I mistaken the topic for photo authenticity
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Anyone ever seen this one before?

---

Others and I have posted this countless of times.

posted 22 December, 2015 04:22

---

what tomb is it from?
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

So, for the record, you admit the only websites that use your yellow-hued version of this Rekhmire mural are personal accounts on imagehosting sites such as "flickr", and no scholastic sources or authorities dealing with the topic?

The link I originally posted says they are semites as well as nubians, all of them being delicted as dark brown-skinned people with "negroid" characteristics. The title of the scholastic article says they are Israelites.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:


The link I originally posted says they are semites as well as nubians, all of them being delicted as dark brown-skinned people with "negroid" characteristics. The title of the scholastic article says they are Israelites.

---

I know what the article says. Scholars have different opinions from one another. You may not know this but scholars don't all agree on things.

Do you believe the above is a depiction of a black Israelite?
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

Once again, you are deflecting.

REPOST:

So, for the record, you admit the only websites that use your yellow-hued version of this Rekhmire mural are personal accounts on imagehosting sites such as "flickr", and no scholastic sources or authorities dealing with the topic?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

Once again, you are deflecting.

REPOST:

So, for the record, you admit the only websites that use your yellow-hued version of this Rekhmire mural are personal accounts on imagehosting sites such as "flickr", and no scholastic sources or authorities dealing with the topic?

---

I haven't checked what every website uses or doesn't use. I posted a photo from an album of Rekhmire photos made my an Egyptian man in 2016, who has hundreds of photos of the tombs. He is a guide not a scholar.
I linked this source numerous times.
So you might think by asking the same question over an over gain means you accomplishing something but it is isn't
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Ah, Herschel Shanks (bh"d)

From Moment magazine to BAR & BR and a failed
related anc Med world archaeo mag. I was an avid
collector but lost all volumes of all three.
Luckily the complete of set of BR (no longer
published) and BAR are online I bought the
CD versions but the BR one used a primitive
platform.

The hi-quality photos in print are so feh meh
in digital otherwise'd be perfect for postings.

Shanks taught me to allow ignorant, religious
biased, and other deprecating 'letters to
the editor'. Fundamentalists would write in
damning various authors to hell, lotsa laughs
dem. The very first email I ever sent was to
Bible Review commenting on biblical Kushites.
BR cut out my technical stuff when they
published it but did handsomely header it.

Shanks was instrumental in freeing the Qumran
Scrolls for the non-religion kowtowing public.

Coupla yrs ago I subscribed and lo and behold
most advertisement was for adult diapers and do.
That tells a lot about the field of so-called
Biblical Archaeology.

This ad speaks volumes as to BAS intent and purpose
Judeo-Christian ecumenicalism for Israel Lobby supporters


Dr. Eliyahu Lizorkin-Eyzenberg, author of best-selling
books, “The Jewish Gospel of John” and “Jewish Insights
Into Scripture,” along with a selected group of Jewish and
Christian Hebraic scholars, warmly invites you to receive
an email newsletter containing their daily insights into
Jewish culture and its relevance to modern Christians such
as yourself. Hurry up enroll free now (click below).

3-24-2021_Israel_Bible_Center
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

Once again, you are deflecting.

REPOST:

So, for the record, you admit the only websites that use your yellow-hued version of this Rekhmire mural are personal accounts on imagehosting sites such as "flickr", and no scholastic sources or authorities dealing with the topic?

---

Again for the thick, I haven't checked every website so I don't know.
I linked what my source was, that is all that matters.
You think it's not valid because it's not a scholarly source.
So there is no need to keep asking about what my source was over and over because I answered it.
What every other website did or didn't do is not my problem
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Ah, Herschel Shanks (bh"d)

From Moment magazine to BAR & BR and a failed
related anc world archaeo mag. I was an avid
collector but lost all volumes of all three.
Luckily the complete of set of BR (no longer
published) and BAR are online I bought the
CD versions but the BR one used a primitive
platform.

Shanks taught me to allow ignorant, religious
biased, and other deprecating 'letters to
the editor'. The very first email I did was
to BR commenting on biblical Kushites. BR
cut out my technical stuff when they
published it but did handsomely header it.

Shanks was instrumental in freeing the Qumran
Scrolls to the public.

---

yes but you said:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Biblical archaeology (a farce distorting Levantine archaeology for white Christianity)

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
. I've shown the actual images from inside of the tomb that prove the images I've shared are the authentic originals, and I've also proven that scholastic authorities also agree and use that same image.

---

You have not shown an image from a scholarly source which says the image is a photo
and if it is a photo credits it properly to a photographer
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Anyone ever seen this one before?

---

It's the African way...Burundi Wedding in the 1980's
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Nothing to retract here.
I stand by everything I say.

Shanks freed the scrolls and
Biblical Archaeology Society
is Judeo-Xian ecumentalist.

Reread last post, now completed
where it was unfinished when u
replied. Ya, I do that a lot to
hold the space til I find time
to fill it chock full of nuts.


If something seems paradoxical to you,
and probably so to silent others too,
ask for precise clarification and/or
expansion. What does simply pointing
one out without any 'value add' do
to positively further the discussion?

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Ah, Herschel Shanks (bh"d)

From Moment magazine to BAR & BR and a failed
related anc world archaeo mag. I was an avid
collector but lost all volumes of all three.
Luckily the complete of set of BR (no longer
published) and BAR are online I bought the
CD versions but the BR one used a primitive
platform.

Shanks taught me to allow ignorant, religious
biased, and other deprecating 'letters to
the editor'. The very first email I did was
to BR commenting on biblical Kushites. BR
cut out my technical stuff when they
published it but did handsomely header it.

Shanks was instrumental in freeing the Qumran
Scrolls to the public.

---

yes but you said:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Biblical archaeology (a farce distorting Levantine archaeology for white Christianity)

---

---

.


Judaism Judah-ism Yehadus HokhmathYisrael
need not fear Levantine archaeology since
it's only a religion per the modern 'west'.

Take away the narrative and what's left is
still the Law and Custom regulating the life
of an extended tribal nation no matter where
its members may be scattered over the globe,
Tarya"gh Misswoth of a Code of Jewish Law.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:


Take away the narrative and what's left is
still the Law and Custom regulating the life
of an extended tribal nation no matter where
its members may be scattered over the globe,
Tarya"gh Misswoth of a Code of Jewish Law. [/QB]

---

Take away the narrative?

Disregard 95% of the book?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
What I'm saying is
if objective archaeology
contradicts Christianity
it undermines believers' faith.


What I'm saying is
if objective archaeology
contradicts 'Judaism'
Judaism still stands
as a national blueprint.

Objectively the Book of the Law
is the oldest known of a probable
book of Torah. Speculatively the
rest was written later. The Book
of the Law was enough to get the
national ethic back on track or
onto the track the king and the
priesthood wanted it on.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/malachim-ii-kings-2-chapter-22

Tanakh and sciences dovetailed for rational minds:
The narrative all came after the Book of the Law if

1. that account from Nakh is factually accurate and
2. internal linguistic analysis supports 7th-5th c BCE composition.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:


Take away the narrative and what's left is
still the Law and Custom regulating the life
of an extended tribal nation no matter where
its members may be scattered over the globe,
Tarya"gh Misswoth of a Code of Jewish Law.

---

Take away the narrative?

Disregard 95% of the book? [/QB]

---

.


Do you find Hammurabi's narrativeless law code useless?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

Have you petitioned Askia yet to open the Religion thread
or create a new Comparative Religion, Myth, and Legend one?

 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

What I'm saying is
if objective archaeology
contradicts 'Judaism'
Judaism still stands
as a national blueprint.

---

I think humans have a right to believe whatever they want to believe and practice their spirituality any way they want to practice as long as it does not infringe on the rights and safety of other human beings... that being said.. If archaeology contradicts 'Judaism' then it takes away the or conflicts with the raison d' etre for the Zionist project and Ethnostate of Israel to exist..


For me the ETHNOSTATE coloniast settler project that is the current state of Israel is problematic as it rests on claims of Abramham's God promise to him to give him someone else's land 3000 years ago...
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


https://archive.org/details/egyptianpainting0000mekh/page/48/mode/2up
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Land claims are made and such disputes are settled by military might documented since Narmer's days.


Egypt conquered Canaan again and again.
`Am Yisrael claims to have conquered Canaan.
Assyria conquered Canaan.
Iskandar conquered Canaan.
Rome conquered Canaan.
Arabs conquered Canaan.
Brits conquered Canaan.

Life was no bed of roses
for the Jews of Arab lands
and Jews have ever been in
the city of Jerusalem's
Jewish quarter no matter
who conquered Canaanland.

In Palestine before the state
Arab and Arab Jews lived in
peace. One day the Arabs
turned on their Jewish
friends and neighbors
with violence and death.
A generation ago Palestinians
desecrated Rachel's tomb and
Jewish blood was everywhere
smeared over Palestinan faces
like war paint.

What's that quote from MLK?

Yes people with age old grudges
since before Greece or Rome have
both committed atrocities one
against the other on the soil
of old Canaan. There are no angels.

♪♪♪♪ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw-pQYzk4R0 3:48
the only solution 5:58

and then Yerushalayim will be Dar u salaam and Jerusalem
so we pray for that along with Senegalese and Jamaicans

♪ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7vreT5gKpM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDWHgLHeSmE footage + better audio
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
[QB] Land claims are made and such disputes are settled by military might documented since Narmer's days.


Egypt conquered Canaan again and again.

---

what is you opinion of the view of those who say Egypt didn't do anything imperialistic, that they were always attacked first so they were justified in going into foreign lands, forcing some nations to pay regular tributes and make some captives do work?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
I'd ask them to pick up an illustrated book and read.

Way back in Old Kingdom like some 5 Nehesi
and Tjemeh nations are inscripted into an
Egy army formed expressly to conquer those
"wretched sandcrawlers" of Canaan.

New Kingdom and after, massive wall carvings
and murals of conquered often hair-bunched
together awaiting the skull bursting bludgeon
blow from Pharaoh.


Did one pharaoh really call himelf
the Throat slitter of Aamw
or was Jari hyping us?


But why argue with those who think as you report?
If thunder and lightning and rhytm of rain pour
is going on as you walk through the door yet all
assembled declare there's no storm, wouldja stand
there thoroughly dripping wet and debate 'em about it?

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
[QB] Land claims are made and such disputes are settled by military might documented since Narmer's days.


Egypt conquered Canaan again and again.

---

what is you opinion of the view of those who say Egypt didn't do anything imperialistic, that they were always attacked first so they were justified in going into foreign lands, forcing some nations to pay regular tributes and make some captives do work?

---

 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Anyone ever seen this one before?

---

It's the African way...Burundi Wedding in the 1980's

---

Amazing post.

Here is a Blog post by Diana Buja.

Banana Beer and other Fermented Foods in Africa

https://dianabuja.wordpress.com/2012/06/16/banana-beer-and-other-fermented-drinks-in-africa/
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Anyone ever seen this one before?

---

Others and I have posted this countless of times.

posted 22 December, 2015 04:22

---

what tomb is it from?

---

"The scene reflects a festive event and that the stele was placed in a house rather than inside a tomb. Probably from Amarna, Egypt. New Kingdom, 18th Dynasty, reign of Amenhotep IV/Akhenaten), 1351-1334 BCE. It is on display at the Neues Museum, Berlin, Germany.".
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Anyone ever seen this one before?

---

It's the African way...Burundi Wedding in the 1980's

---

Amazing post.

Here is a Blog post by Diana Buja.

Banana Beer and other Fermented Foods in Africa

https://dianabuja.wordpress.com/2012/06/16/banana-beer-and-other-fermented-drinks-in-africa/

---

No.. listen.. her blog is INCREDIBLE...(food & history) Thank you for posting it .. I am a foodie.. always looking for good recipes.. she has the Egyptian Rice & Vermicelli recipe I was looking for... or as we Americans call it.. Rice A Roni..

The history of food is fascinating.. love her map of indigenous African Rice... looks like the progenitor comes from Sudan.. that is good to know!
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Now here is a find..

Jew's mallow Greens Molokiyah

Jew's mallow is a common name for several flowering plants and may refer to:

Corchorus olitorius (Arabic Mulukhiyah) in the mallow family (Malvaceae), cultivated for its edible leaves and jute fiber


Molokhiya was consumed in ancient Egyptian cuisine, where the name "molokhiya" is thought to have originated from



Levantine Style



Egyptian

quote:

---

The leaf is a common food in many tropical West African countries. It is believed that the "drip tips" on the leaves serve to shed excess water from the leaf from the heavy rains in the tropics. In Sierra Leone it is called kren-kre (krain krain or crain crain), and is eaten in a palm oil sauce served with rice or cassava fufu (a traditional food made from cassava), or else is steamed and mixed into rice just before eating a non-palm oil sauce. Among the Yorubas in south-west Nigeria, it is called ewedu and served with cooked yam flour (amala). In Liberia it is called palaver sauce, and is served with rice or fufu. In The Gambia it is referred to as kereng-kereng and is typically used to make supakanja (a dish mostly served on Saturdays and made with okra, red palm oil, fish and meat).[citation needed]

In Ghana, it is known as Ademe ewe or Ayoyo leaves and used to make accompanying soups for Banku(a corn cassavas dough dish) or cooked rice)

---

Ewedu is a traditional soup native to the Yoruba part of Nigeria it is often served with Amala or any other .




Nigerian style
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 



The Egyptians and Moors of the 12th and 13th centuries used the Arabic word for the plant, bamya, suggesting it had come into Egypt from Arabia, but earlier it was probably taken from Ethiopia to Arabia. The plant may have entered southwest Asia across

Okra probably originated somewhere around Ethiopia, and was cultivated by the ancient Egyptians by the 12th century B.C. Its cultivation spread throughout North Africa and the Middle East. The seed pods were eaten cooked, and the seeds were toasted and ground, used as a coffee substitute (and still is).

The first use of the word okra (Alternatively; okro or ochro) appeared on 1679 in the Colony of Virginia, deriving from the Igbo word ọ́kụ̀rụ̀. The word gumbo was first recorded to be used in American vernacular around 1805, deriving from Louisiana Creole, but originates from either the Umbundu word ochinggômbo[7] or the Kimbundu word ki-ngombo




Egyptian Bamya
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
I think humans have a right to believe whatever they want to believe and practice their spirituality any way they want to practice as long as it does not infringe on the rights and safety of other human beings... that being said.. If archaeology contradicts 'Judaism' then it takes away the or conflicts with the raison d' etre for the Zionist project and Ethnostate of Israel to exist..


For me the ETHNOSTATE coloniast settler project that is the current state of Israel is problematic as it rests on claims of Abramham's God promise to him to give him someone else's land 3000 years ago...
------------------------------------------ ------------------------------

^^Keep in mind that the modern state of Israel does not rest only
on religious ideology. Matter of fact it has a strong atheist and socialist
foundation. That being said, some Jews lament the loss or reduction
of what they see as a secular alternative.
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-how-israel-went-from-atheist-zionism-to-jewish-state-1.5488653
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tukuler:


Take away the narrative and what's left is
still the Law and Custom regulating the life
of an extended tribal nation no matter where
its members may be scattered over the globe,
Tarya"gh Misswoth of a Code of Jewish Law.

---

Take away the narrative?

Disregard 95% of the book?

---

It sounds dubious. Archaeology itself has its own "narrative" or "spin"
depending on the era examined. At one time it had Caucasoid "Hamites"
migrating into Kemet to guide the slower-witted negroes. And various
finds have contradicted many faiths, not only Judiasm, but the faiths
still stand.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:


Take away the narrative and what's left is
still the Law and Custom regulating the life
of an extended tribal nation no matter where
its members may be scattered over the globe,
Tarya"gh Misswoth of a Code of Jewish Law. [/qb]

---

Do you agree there are 611-13 613 commandments?

And if we call these laws, in a Jewish society do you think these laws should be backed by punishments carried out by officials if you break them?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

Asiatics in battle scene, tomb of Amenhotep II 15th century BCE from Thebes el-Asasif sandstone

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Anyone ever seen this one before?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
[qb] Anyone ever seen this one before?

---

Others and I have posted this countless of times.

posted 22 December, 2015 04:22

---

Do you think both of these photos depict the same type of people?
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

^^Keep in mind that the modern state of Israel does not rest only
on religious ideology. Matter of fact it has a strong atheist and socialist
foundation. That being said, some Jews lament the loss or reduction
of what they see as a secular alternative.

---

^^^^ Understood

Anyone who as grown up in the south has heard that eating black-eyed peas on New Years Day is lucky, but how many people know the origins of this tradition.

According to Wikipedia, the oldest theory for this tradition dates back to ancient Egypt during the time of the Pharaohs. It was believed eating a meager food like blacked-eyed peas showed humility towards the gods. In addition, around 339 CE the Babylonian Talmud tells Jews to eat black-eyed peas during Rosh Hashana, the Jewish New Year .

quote:

---

Black-eyed peas were also eaten by slaves. According to tradition, they were eaten by the slaves on January 1, 1863, the day the Emancipation Proclamation went into effect, because that was all they had to eat. From that day forward, peas were always eaten on Jan. 1.
There are also several traditions on how to cook the peas, some say put a new penny or dime in the pot before cooking, and the one who gets the coin will be extra lucky.

---

quote:

---

Africa and Middle East
In Egypt, black-eyed peas are called lobia. Cooked with onions, garlic, meat, and tomato juice, and served with Egyptian rice with some pastina called shaerya mixed in, it makes the most famous rice dish in Egypt.

In Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria, lobya or green black-eyed-beans are cooked with onion, garlic, tomatoes, peeled and chopped, olive oil, salt and black pepper.

In Nigeria and Ghana within West Africa and the Caribbean, a traditional dish called akara or koose is made of mashed black-eyed peas to which is added salt, onions and/or peppers. The mixture is then fried. In Nigeria, there is also a pudding made from it called 'moin-moin' where it is ground and mixed with seasoning as well as some plant proteins before it is steamed. This is served with various carbohydrate rich foods such as pap, rice or garri/QUOTE]




Egyptian black eyped peas ( Loubiya )

quote:

---

Thomas Jefferson reported in the 1770s that African Americans ate sesame seeds in a variety of ways: raw, in salads, toasted or boiled in soup, baked in breads , boiled with greens, and cooked as broth. benne seed in South Carolina were brought as seeds by West Africans to South Carolina. Slaves raised large crops of sesame, being fond of the plant's nutritious seeds for making soups and puddings. They also used sesame oil for cooking and lighting lamps within private estates as well as on the public roal

---

quote:

---

some reports claim sesame was cultivated in Egypt during the Ptolemaic period,[20] while others suggest the New Kingdom. Egyptians called it sesemt, and it is included in the list of medicinal drugs in the scrolls of the Ebers Papyrus dated to be over 3600 years old. Adding sesame seeds to baked goods can be traced back to ancient Egyptian times from an ancient tomb painting that depicts a baker adding the seeds to bread dough.
[QUOTE]The black sesame plant is an important plant in Sierra Leone, the seeds are often used to facilitate childbirth, heal sprains and make, and excellent seasoning called ogiri. The leaves of the sesame plant are also used as laxative and as topical remedy to heal stings of scorpions.

---

---

quote:

---

Song of Solomon 2:1

The Bride's Admiration
I am a rose of Sharon, a lily of the valley. Like a lily (Hibiscus) among the thorns is my darling among the maidens.

In ancient Egypt, hibiscus flowers were associated with lust. The Egyptians believed that tea made with red hibiscus flowers and sepals could induce licentious cravings in women. As a result, for many centuries Egyptian women were forbidden to drink hibiscus tea.


In ancient Egypt , hibiscus or karkade tea was the Pharaohs beverage of choice . This tea was perfectly refreshing after a day in the hot desert heat and has been used in ceremonies and celebrations for centuries. ... The gorgeous red tea is also associated with lowering blood pressure and high cholesterol levels [QUOTE]

What Exactly is Bissap?

Bissap is a drink made from the species of the hibiscus flower known as the Roselle. The sepals of the hibiscus flower when infused in hot water leaves a pink, red, magenta or dark shade of water. It is scientifically named hibiscus sabdariffa. The sepals are also referred to as the Roselle fruit flower. It is important to note that it is the sepals or calyxes and not the petals of the flower that produces this versatile drink.

Throughout West Africa—as well as in neighborhoods including Harlem, Bed-Stuy, Crown Heights and East Flatbush—this Hibiscus sabdariffa is the main ingredient of bissap: a thirst-quenching and bold fuchsia-colored drink.

it is called sorrel in the Caribbean region covering Guyana, Barbados, Dominican Republic, Trinidad and Tobago, Belize and Jamaica referring to the petals of the flower,

---

 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
No.. listen.. her blog is INCREDIBLE...(food & history) Thank you for posting it .. I am a foodie.. always looking for good recipes.. she has the Egyptian Rice & Vermicelli recipe I was looking for... or as we Americans call it.. Rice A Roni..

The history of food is fascinating.. love her map of indigenous African Rice... looks like the progenitor comes from Sudan.. that is good to know!

---

Ok, just take in account that you need to workout as well. Food and wellness.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
What does it matter should anyone now disagree?
The precise count is unknown. TRY"G Misswoth
was settled upon long long ago and that's what
it remains.

https://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/973

After reading that know some recite each one on
the Ramba"m 613 list on the holyday commemorating
the Sinai gift.

My Master (zs"l) taught me Torah is a living document
and Torah is an African document given on a mountain
in Africa. To which I add African Rift peoples have
firemountaintop deities and laws that appear among TRY"G.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ol_Doinyo_Lengai

Since TRY"G in fact regulates the life of an
extended tribal nation it regulates courts of
law. It's believed all tribes and nations of
people are to set up courts of law and have
six other misswoth of their own as descendants
of Adham through Noahh.

You hafta get what a misswah is. One misswah
is that a woman take miqwah ritual purification
submersion after her menses. It is not a court
of law's business to punish her if she doesn't.

Beta Israel women were very upset to discover
they could not take to hut during their period in
the nation-state Israel among other adjustments
the whole people had to make including struggle
against anti-black racism like the Indians and
Yemeni particularly had to do. For decades
Mizrahhi and Mughrebi musics were banned
from Israeli radio as "unsavory". You could
only buy this only authentic Semitic Jewish
music on cassette in places like the Tel Aviv
bus depot in my lifetime.

TRY"G involves many facets of life and customary
daily activity that doesn't fit certain ideas of law.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:


Take away the narrative and what's left is
still the Law and Custom regulating the life
of an extended tribal nation no matter where
its members may be scattered over the globe,
Tarya"gh Misswoth of a Code of Jewish Law.

---

Do you agree there are 611-13 613 commandments?

And if we call these laws, in a Jewish society do you think these laws should be backed by punishments carried out by officials if you break them?

---

 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

Asiatics in battle scene, tomb of Amenhotep II 15th century BCE from Thebes el-Asasif sandstone

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Anyone ever seen this one before?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
[qb] Anyone ever seen this one before?

---

Others and I have posted this countless of times.

posted 22 December, 2015 04:22

---

Do you think both of these photos depict the same type of people?

---

Could be, but doesn't have to be. There is culture and ethnicities.

SCHOLARS 20 FOR 20 #1 DR RICHARD S. HESS "PASSOVER, PROPHECIES, DEUT 28, EMAR, MARI"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdjBwLyNrR0&t=1208s


 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Hebrewisms of West Africa: an original discovery of a dish similar to the Jewish dafina

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
Now here is a find..

Jew's mallow Greens Molokiyah

quote:

---

The leaf is a common food in many tropical West African countries.

In The Gambia it is referred to as kereng-kereng and is typically used to make supakanja (a dish mostly served on Saturdays and made with okra, red palm oil, fish and meat).

---

---

.

Okry was a favorite of my father.
Can't say for sure it's a bani Israil
thing from Gambia up and on north and
west through to Libya. Maroc and S&P
def luvvit.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:



The Egyptians and Moors of the 12th and 13th centuries used the Arabic word for the plant, bamya,


Okra probably originated somewhere around Ethiopia,


The first use of the word okra (Alternatively; okro or ochro) appeared on 1679 in the Colony of Virginia, deriving from the Igbo word ọ́kụ̀rụ̀. The word gumbo was first recorded to be used in American vernacular around 1805, deriving from Louisiana Creole, but originates from either the Umbundu word ochinggômbo[7] or the Kimbundu word ki-ngombo




Egyptian Bamya

---

.


And oh yeah Mizrahhi and some EH congs ritually eat black eye peas
on Yom Terurah, one of the four Jewish New Years with blessings for
increasing our merits. Other Jews use fenugreek. This arose from
l/r transposition of לוביה
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:! [/qb]]Ok, just take in account that you need to workout as well. Food and wellness.

---

Oh... I'm a gym rat how about you? For you... I would recommend some Moringa in mornings...the tree of Ptah..

DUDE... Garfield is an AGENT! an INFORMANT! and he hates ADOS/FBA... and HE IS A SCAMMER.. on top of that.. RA Born was about to snitch and out him live on Saa Neter stream with Jabari.. and boom Saa cut the feed.. that was all the confirmation I needed.

Horseradish Tree... Found Wild in West Africa

quote:

---

Moringa Oleifera benefits are well-known by native people, in Asia and Africa. The Moringa oil was placed in the tombs of ancient Egyptians, and it is mentioned in the Bible. The Moringa tree is called the Miracle Tree, Tree of Life, and Mother’s Best Friend.

The Moringa tree is rich in nutrients. Moringa Oleifera benefits include:

Blood sugar levels: Moringa antioxidants and unique regulating compounds help control blood sugar.
Physical energy: get natural nutrients to make your energy last longer.
Faster recovery: Moringa Oleifera with its amino profile, and dozens of vitamins and minerals, helps to regain energies after workouts and physical strain

---

quote:

---

This Ancient Egyptian Practice Can Cheaply Purify Dirty Water


DAVID NIELD13 JUNE 2015
The seeds of the Moringa oleifera tree have been used to purify water and clean crockery since the days of ancient Egypt, but up until now scientists weren't sure exactly how they worked. Thanks to a new paper published in the journal Langmuir by researchers at Pennsylvania State University, part of the mystery has now been solved.

It had already been established that a protein inside the Egyptian seeds caused bacteria to clump together in the water and die, sinking to the bottom of the container to leave the water largely clear. But the latest discovery reveals how this is done: the academics found that the seeds actually fuse the membranes of said bacteria together. As those membranes are the main protection the bacteria have, disrupting them causes the cells to die.

---

quote:

---

After Moses led the Israelites through the miraculous Red Sea crossing, described in the Bible’s book of Exodus (15:25), they went into the wilderness of Shur — in the north-west of the Sinai Peninsula. The Israelites travelled for three days without finding water. When they finally came to a place with water, which they named Marah, they decided to camp there. But they found they could not drink from the waters at Marah because the taste was too bitter. They complained to Moses, who asked God what they could drink. Then God showed Moses a tree, “which when he had cast into the waters, the waters were made sweet”. What was this tree? Are there really trees that can turn bad water into clean drinking water — trees that will purify water quickly to make it drinkable?

---

quote:

---

Hebrewisms of West Africa: an original discovery of a dish similar to the Jewish dafina

---

The name Ewedu.... jumps out at me don't know if it is a coincidence or not... but it is clearly a tropical plant...

History. Okra probably originated somewhere around Ethiopia, and was cultivated by the ancient Egyptians by the 12th century B.C. it's was called Bamia in Israel and the flower looks like a smaller Hibiscus... I know Isreali's who eat Okra on the regular so that was one I already knew..



I have always hated okra.. I can't take the slimyness of it, deep fried is the closest I will get to it... so I doubt if I would be able to eat Ewedu


flower of the Okra
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

SCHOLARS 20 FOR 20 #1 DR RICHARD S. HESS "PASSOVER, PROPHECIES, DEUT 28, EMAR, MARI"

---

They say they are 20 for 20 but several questions still arise. They are
linking the Hebrew religion closely with the South West Asian Ugratic culture,
and see many things deriving out of the Ugratic. This contradicts
those who argue for a Kemetic origin to many ancient Hebraic
religion elements, such as Dr. Yosef Ben Jochannan.

Dr. Ben Jochanan's book "We the Black Jews" breaks down this argument in detail.
https://books.google.com/books?id=uvbF_RaqCSoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=we+the+black+jews&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjo2N2GtMzvAhUJXc0KHStdC74Q6AEwAHoECAYQAg#v=one page&q=passover&f=false

Per Dr. Ben the mysteries of Egypt through the Egyptian Book of
the Coming Forth by Day (Book of the Dead) gave rise to Judaism,
and that various saying attributed to Solomon are actually derived from
the Pharaohs.



 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

Oh... I'm a gym rat how about you? For you... I would recommend some Moringa in mornings...the tree of Ptah..

---

Me as well.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

DUDE... Garfield is an AGENT! an INFORMANT! and he hates ADOS/FBA... and HE IS A SCAMMER.. on top of that.. RA Born was about to snitch and out him live on Saa Neter stream with Jabari.. and boom Saa cut the feed.. that was all the confirmation I needed.

---

I agree what he did was problematic, and that was made clear after Jabari responded to him last week. And yes, I did hear RaBorn as well. Jabari wants to challenge the dude and that's a good thing.

I don't think Garfield hates ADOS, according to his saying he has problems with Yvette and Antonio. And he does what reparations for ADOS, but not the xenophobia. I think Garfield and other want Black scholars to upgrade and do better. The true greats were in the '70s, '80s and '90s. After that we saw a dip, with a lot pseudo scholarship. I think the one who kicked this off was Enqi (a few months ago vs Bro Sanchez). There is a split in where to go next. That also what I have witnessed with Shakka Amose.

Pertaining Garfield. Clearly there are Black immigrants who have done and keep doing problematic things. It's all painful to see. But not all of course. RaBorn and Jabari have a partly Caribbean background as well.
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova:
Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

SCHOLARS 20 FOR 20 #1 DR RICHARD S. HESS "PASSOVER, PROPHECIES, DEUT 28, EMAR, MARI"

---

They say they are 20 for 20 but several questions still arise. They are
linking the Hebrew religion closely with the South West Asian Ugratic culture,
and see many things deriving out of the Ugratic. This contradicts
those who argue for a Kemetic origin to many ancient Hebraic
religion elements, such as Dr. Yosef Ben Jochannan.

Dr. Ben Jochanan's book "We the Black Jews" breaks down this argument in detail.
https://books.google.com/books?id=uvbF_RaqCSoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=we+the+black+jews&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjo2N2GtMzvAhUJXc0KHStdC74Q6AEwAHoECAYQAg#v=one page&q=passover&f=false

Per Dr. Ben the mysteries of Egypt through the Egyptian Book of
the Coming Forth by Day (Book of the Dead) gave rise to Judaism,
and that various saying attributed to Solomon are actually derived from
the Pharaohs.

---

We know that Afroasiatic culture came from Africa and migrated to the Levant and from there to the Crescent.

quote:

---

"These results indicate that the ancestor of all Semitic languages in our dataset was being spoken in the Near East no earlier than approximately 7400 YBP, after having after having diverged from Afroasiatic in Africa"

(i) Semitic had an Early Bronze Age origin (approx. 5750 YBP) in the Levant, followed by an expansion of Akkadian into Mesopotamia;

(ii) Central and South Semitic diverged earlier than previously thought throughout the Levant during the Early to Middle Bronze Age transition; and

(iii) Ethiosemitic arose as the result of a single, possibly pre-Aksumite, introduction of a lineage from southern Arabia to the Horn of Africa approximately 2800 YBP.

---

~Andrew Kitchen, Christopher Ehret2, Shiferaw Assefa2 and Connie J. Mulligan

Bayesian phylogenetic analysis of Semitic languages identifies an Early Bronze Age origin of Semitic in the Near East
Proc. R. Soc. B (2009) 276, 2703–2710
doi:10.1098/rspb.2009.0408





Ugaritic is basically proto-Arabic.

A Proper View of Arabic, Semitic, and More

Gary A. Rendsburg, University Pennsylvania
Aaron D. Rubin, Rutgers State University
John Huehnergard, Harvard University

"The author’s main contention is that the roots of Arabic are to be found in the language(s) of the Late Bronze Age Levant (Ugaritic especially)."
https://jewishstudies.rutgers.edu/docman/rendsburg/334-jaos-proper-view/file
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdjBwLyNrR0&t=1208s

[/QB]

---

@Tukuler I don't know if you have listened to this. but it's pretty interesting. They talk about the God El, the Mari, the Ugartic texts and possible relation to Passover> z-k-r.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

I don't think Garfield hates

---

He is the one that said Malcolm Little ( Malcolm X)
seduced white men ( slept with them) and then robbed them..

It's a matter of learning to listen to people..

he frequently uses the phrases..

"this is what is wrong with black people"
"this is what is wrong with African Americans"


among other off putting things he says... it is obvious that he is an agent.... I outlined for you in the other thread how the FEDS operate..

NO BLACK MESSIAH"S.. not even in the past.. so they have to tear down the reputations of ICONS like Malcom and Martin.. tear down the scions of the Afrocentrist movement... tear down all of the factions.. CHRISTIANS, NOI, MOORS, HEBREWS, KEMETIANS and tell them atheism is the answer because any positive black identity that uplifts the community must be discredited..

How they use sting operations to survival African Americans...

Did you not see what Jabari said at the end of that stream? That Garfield and Carrier put a target on his back with the FBI by calling him a black identity extremist.
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

Did you not see what Jabari said at the end of that stream? That Garfield and Carrier put a target on his back with the FBI by calling him a black identity extremist.

---

Yes, that's the problematic thing I am refer at. That's indeed very dangerous. Not just for Jabari, but also for others in the conscious space.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
^^^^ don't help to promote him then..


look...

One of his guests did a paper on clay tablets that had no provenance...

One of his guests did not understand how Yahweh went from an inscription to a god..despite Yawi.. being a concept of GOD throughout West African

Another of his guests straight up said that Egyptologists are not looking LOOKING for connections to black africa... In other words they are deliberately ignoring black africa for context for Egyptological studies


Carrier is considered pseudo in many arena's despite his PHD from Columbia and in another speech he gave he sited Osiris as an influence to Christianity contradicting what he said to GarFOOL..


I could go on.. but just because someone is yte does not mean I don't do check out their biases..


GarFOOL.. made a mistake in each of his interviews around not probing his guests for their potential biases.. he just let them speak... and used them to prove his own bias or agenda ..
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
[QB]

quote:

---

I don't think Garfield hates

---

He is the one that said Malcolm Little ( Malcolm X)
seduced white men ( slept with them) and then robbed them..

---

prove it
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
[QB]

quote:

---

I don't think Garfield hates

---

he frequently uses the phrases..

"this is what is wrong with black people"
"this is what is wrong with African Americans"

---

that doesn't mean he's an "agent"
Saneter and other people on his show often say things like this
Also you would have to prove it, and we can see what he's talking about if he said this
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:


I could go on.. but just because someone is yte does not mean I don't do check out their biases..


GarFOOL.. made a mistake in each of his interviews around not probing his guests for their potential biases.. he just let them speak... and used them to prove his own bias or agenda .. [/QB]

---

This depends on what somebody even thinks could be a bias. If a person makes 50 statements in a lecture you are not going to review each statement for bias. You will have to decide which statements are relevant to look at for bias.

You are biased you are implying don't watch any of these videos of biblical scholars because Garfield conducted them.
Now we are looking at the interview with Richard Hess. So if you want to suggest he's not worth listening to you would need time stamps in the video or quotes of full sentences to try to argue he's not worth listening to
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
QUIT LYING. I never said don't watch them...I WATCHED ALL OF THEM.. then I googled each scholar and their respective work. I said don't promote GarFOOL... ...


Here is the video of him saying what he said about Malcolm... this link will destruct in 24 hours because I am going to delete it.. in fact this post will be deleted by me in 24 hours.. because it does not pertain to this thread and I don't want to promote GarFool with either negative posts and links nor positive posts and links because as I said he is an AGENT and I am not the only one who thinks so..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtiIxt5qQEg


defaming Malcolm X ^^^^^^^^^^^^^


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_fzKoKsJT8

Here is GarFOOL on tape actively scamming customers and running game on them to NOT refund their money


GARFOOL & SUCKER SQUAD EXPOSED | Conscious Scammers In The Black Community

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXPQG9a98xo


GarFOOL & The Sucker Squad SCAMS woman out of $1500 fake Credit Repair Scam!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-bKqUE1mAQ


EXPOSED
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHanw4cBtVc
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
[QB] QUIT LYING. I never said don't watch them...I WATCHED ALL OF THEM.. then I googled each scholar and their respective work. I said don't promote GarFOOL... ...


Here is the video of him saying what he said about Malcolm... this link will destruct in 24 hours because I am going to delete it.. in fact this post will be deleted by me in 24 hours.. because it does not pertain to this thread and I don't want to promote GarFool with either negative posts and links nor positive posts and links because as I said he is an AGENT and I am not the only one who thinks so..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtiIxt5qQEg


defaming Malcolm X ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

---

Ok he says it, Garfield:

"I should have made it
clear we talking about Malcolm little
not Malcolm X and that's very important
so when somebody said was Malcolm X
homosexual? No, was Malcolm little was a
bisexual according to the history of
what has been taught and told yes yeah
but this was before Malcolm went to jail
he used to hustle white folks he used to
hustle white men he would sleep with
white men"

_____________________

He got that from Bruce Perry's book.
While not impossible I would call it rumor, not fact like he is trying to state it here

It also doesn't prove Garfield is an "agent" of the government.
He does bring a higher level of research on these bible history matters than people like Bro Sanchez and Enqi.
If he is an agent why would he also have to scam people?
Brother Polight scams, doesn't mean he's an agent

Actual agents are harder to detect although there is no way of knowing who might get paid to do what. They could be agents or not be agents
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
GARFOOL Is a paid informant.. AKA AGENT.. if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck it's a duck.

GARFOOL's SCAMING is CREDIT REPAIR involved... that means he gets people in the conscious communities ID, Social Security, and Bank transactions.. perfect way to spy on peoples activities...


Actually, I painfully watched MORE Richard Carrier videos since he disputes the Horus was born on the winter soltice myth.. ( his main argument against Jabari) and yeah.. he does not hold up well under a decent Debate with others in his field..


on Horus birthday that he disputes and says is false.. here is the counter argument.. Now this is something I really don't care about.. only in as much as Horus is a SOLAR diety and that is the angle ( no pun) that interests me the most.

quote:

---

Well, it finally bothered me enough that I decided to find out where that whole Horus-born-on-December-25th thing came from.

I first checked in with my pal Plutarch since I know he mentions a couple of Egyptian winter solstice traditions—and since Horus-born-on-the-25th seemed likely to have been a late Pagan tradition. Writing in the late 1st and early 2nd centuries CE, Plutarch tells us that Harpocrates (from Hor-pa-khered, Horus the Child) is born on the winter solstice (I quote it here at length because I like the lead-in):

Thus we shall attack the many boring people who find pleasure in associating the activities of these gods with the seasonal changes of the atmosphere or with the growths, sowing, and plowing of crops, and who say that Osiris is being buried when the corn is sown and hidden in the earth, and that he lives again and reappears when it begins to sprout. For this reason it is said that Isis, when she was aware of her being pregnant, put on a protective amulet on the sixth day of Phaophi, and at the winter solstice gave birth to Harpocrates, imperfect and prematurely born, amid plants that burgeoned and sprouted before their season . . . and they are said to celebrate the days of her confinement after the spring equinox. (Plutarch, On Isis and Osiris, 65B-c)

---

quote:

---

This tradition was still going strong by the 4th and 5th centuries CE, for another writer, Macrobius, famous for his book about the Saturnalia, notes that:

…at the winter solstice, the sun would seem to be a little child like that which the Egyptians bring forth from a shrine on the appointed day, since the day is then at its shortest and the god is accordingly shown as a tiny infant. (Macrobius, Saturnalia, 1.18:10

---

[QUOTE]But at least one author has noted that in the time of Pharaoh Amenemhet I (approx. 1991-1962 BCE), the pharaoh took a new title as the sun approached winter solstice in the 17th year of his reign. The title was Nem-mestu, Repeater of Births, a title also given to the dead and which may refer to daily solar rebirth or even to reincarnation. In addition to the normal pharaoh-sun connection, the king is even more strongly associating himself with the sun by taking the title, and it would seen from the timing that he is particularly associating himself with the winter solstice sun. At the very least, this points to the importance of the winter solstice to Egyptian tradition.There are plenty of inscriptions and texts to support that, and a number of temples and monuments are oriented toward the winter solstice sunrise, especially those dedicated to Re-Hor-Akhty, Re-Horus of the Horizon .

/QUOTE]


The image of the goddess holding her child was used prominently in her worship—for example, in panel paintings that were used in household shrines dedicated to her. Isis's iconography in these paintings closely resembles and may have influenced the earliest Christian icons of Mary holding Jesus.



 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
what is more similar to Egyptian religion, Judaism or Christianity ?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Richard Carrier says Jesus did not exist
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
^^^^ I don't care if Jesus is real or not...


This video just dropped..

Prof James Small- The Truth about African Voudun, Christianity, and the Ancient Mystery Systems

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZORfqEXW8hk
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
don't help to promote him then..


look...

One of his guests did a paper on clay tablets that had no provenance...

One of his guests did not understand how Yahweh went from an inscription to a god..despite Yawi.. being a concept of GOD throughout West African

Another of his guests straight up said that Egyptologists are not looking LOOKING for connections to black africa... In other words they are deliberately ignoring black africa for context for Egyptological studies


Carrier is considered pseudo in many arena's despite his PHD from Columbia and in another speech he gave he sited Osiris as an influence to Christianity contradicting what he said to GarFOOL..


I could go on.. but just because someone is yte does not mean I don't do check out their biases..


GarFOOL.. made a mistake in each of his interviews around not probing his guests for their potential biases.. he just let them speak... and used them to prove his own bias or agenda ..

---

I did post the 20 20 series, but only have watched the first 4 of that series. I will watch the others for objectivity. I also will watch the other recordings you've posted. It's a lot, so it will take some time.

Musa’s Ancient Egyptian Arabic Discovered?
Dr. Wesley Muhammad
http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/Perspectives_1/article_9898.shtml


Ugaritic Abecedary and the Origins of the Proto-Canaanite Alphabet
Frank Moore Cross, Jr. and Thomas O. Lambdin
Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research
No. 160 (Dec., 1960), pp. 21-26 (6 pages)
Published By: The University of Chicago Press
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1355644?seq=1
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Interesting video that touches on this stuff:

The Exodus from Egypt, a Lecture with Dr. James Hoffmeier

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2vhrK6Wczs

---

 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
:The Influence of Egypt on the Torah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIQL--dxGMs


Dr. James Hoffmeier

November 15,2020
^^^^This one IS GOLD!!!



 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
don't help to promote him then..


look...

One of his guests did a paper on clay tablets that had no provenance...

One of his guests did not understand how Yahweh went from an inscription to a god..despite Yawi.. being a concept of GOD throughout West African

Another of his guests straight up said that Egyptologists are not looking LOOKING for connections to black africa... In other words they are deliberately ignoring black africa for context for Egyptological studies


Carrier is considered pseudo in many arena's despite his PHD from Columbia and in another speech he gave he sited Osiris as an influence to Christianity contradicting what he said to GarFOOL..


I could go on.. but just because someone is yte does not mean I don't do check out their biases..


GarFOOL.. made a mistake in each of his interviews around not probing his guests for their potential biases.. he just let them speak... and used them to prove his own bias or agenda ..

---

I did post the 20 20 series, but only have watched the first 4 of that series. I will watch the others for objectivity. I also will watch the other recordings you've posted. It's a lot, so it will take some time.

Musa’s Ancient Egyptian Arabic Discovered?
Dr. Wesley Muhammad
http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/Perspectives_1/article_9898.shtml


Ugaritic Abecedary and the Origins of the Proto-Canaanite Alphabet
Frank Moore Cross, Jr. and Thomas O. Lambdin
Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research
No. 160 (Dec., 1960), pp. 21-26 (6 pages)
Published By: The University of Chicago Press
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1355644?seq=1

---

Wesley Muhammed often tries to shoehorn things back to Arabia.
In the article below, he argues that Yoruba of West Africa and their
religion derive from Arabia. This argument ties in with NOI claims as
to the prime place of the "Asiatic Black Man." Muhammed's twist is to
position Arabia as black, thus attempting to avoid the Caucasian
Arab Semite problem. If they were black then various arguments can
be made more palatable for blacks on racial grounds. He weaves
together many oral narratives and legends and stories to show that
indeed, the Yoruba are from Arabia. Says Muhammed:

quote:

---

"From the great [Black Arabian] religions came [Ifá], and the elements that went into [Ifá]. [Ifá] came out of
[Black Arabia]. All these great religions [of the Yorùbá] are derivative religions…If I wanted a great religion I
would bypass [Ifá] and go to the original…[Ifá is] carbon cop[y] of [Black Arabian] religions. We need to go
back and take the original and deal from the original rather than the carbon.
----------------- -------------

While the first half of this statement is factually true, who will follow the judgment of the
second half of this statement? Ifá does derive in part from Black Arabia. Is this a good reason to
“bypass” it and go back instead to the original Black Arabian religion? I don’t think so. Yet, if
we enforce Dr. Clark’s judgment of Islam then we must enforce this judgment on Ifá, lest we are
guilty of an unjustifiable double standard.


Continuing to deny Black Arabia and its products (e.g. Islam) their rightful place within the
Africa-centered paradigm has serious consequences. For example it renders our Ifá-practicing
Yoruban family a leg short: to deny Black Arabia is to make Ifá stand and hop about on one leg
only."
from:
THE BLACK ARABIAN ORIGIN OF THE YORUBA
By Wesley Muhammad, PhD
November 4, 2013

---

Thus under Muhammed's argument, many of the ancient peoples of West
Africa have little to do with Jews, but rather the source is Arabia.
Kemet is not the main source of key elements- it would at best be a
parallel source with Arabia. Rather than a black Kemetic source,
the source is black Arabia.


-



On another side of the ledger, Garfield highlights the Ugaratic
elements pointing to SWest Eurasiam Ugaratic as the main source of many things.
Thus Black Kemet's influence would be of secondary importance.


-



Both models are contradicted by Dr. Ben Yochanan, who in "We the Black Jews"
argues forcefully for an Egyptian source, not Arabia, or Middle East.


.
All models when applied to West Africa seem to downplay what the
indigenous people themselves developed.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:


Musa’s Ancient Egyptian Arabic Discovered?
Dr. Wesley Muhammad
http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/Perspectives_1/article_9898.shtml

---

@zarahan, did you read this?
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
I am not going to discount any Ugaritic evidence since I don't know enough about it to be honest... However, You know this is how I know Garfield is an agent.. he is not actually studying African history/ or local West African ORAL history...he thinks of west africa as the DARK CONTINENT isolated from the larger world. this is EUROCENTRIC thinking and just a short foray into W. African cuisine tells you otherwise.. We have to reorient our thinking about the region. not think North South SUB SAHARAN Africa but think of the world the way West Africans experienced it the most.. EAST TO WEST - WEST TO EAST along the Sahelian Corridor. Tishkoff already said shared genetics back and forth along this corridor is to be found.. when You continue EAST along the Sahel.. you got to past through SUDAN but right across there is Yemen.. this is not a far trek and is the one most used for the Muslim pilgrimage. Wesley has an AGENDA but he does his HOMEWORK and his papers are well sourced academically.

quote:

---

"From the great [Black Arabian] religions came [Ifá], and the elements that went into [Ifá]. [Ifá] came out of [Black Arabia]. All these great religions [of the Yorùbá] are derivative religions…If I wanted a great religion I would bypass [Ifá] and go to the original…[Ifá is] carbon cop[y] of [Black Arabian] religions. We need to go
back and take the original and deal from the original rather than the carbon.

---

While Wesley's language is strident, he is practicing apologetics after all, but instead of dismissing his arguments whole cloth I would prefer to entertain reasoned counter arguments that are as well sourced as Wesley's work..

Notably, it is not just desperate low self esteem African Americans making West African connections to the Nile valley, near east or Arabia.. it's west Africans themselves hundreds of years ago
what are we to make of Yoruba, Ewe, Igbo local history of migrations to their current point? Do we discount them as mere fantasy? Whose agenda do we serve when we do that?

Braima alias Abraham: A Study in Diffusion
M. D. W. Jeffreys
Folklore
Vol. 70, No. 1 (Mar., 1959), pp. 323-333 (11 pages)
Published By: Taylor & Francis, Ltd.




But that is Bello speaking a Fulani, how about Yoruba mythic oral history for instance...Sungbo

quote:

---

Even a massive earthen monument of the Yoruba people in Nigeria known as Sungbo's Eredo is held by Yoruba oral tradition to have been built in honour of the powerful aristocrat Oloye Bilikisu Sungbo, who is often said to have been Queen Bilqis

---

quote:

---

Sungbo's Eredo is a system of defensive walls and ditches that is located to the southwest of the Yoruba town of Ijebu Ode in Ogun State, southwest Nigeria It was built in 800-1000 AD in honour of the Ijebu noblewoman Oloye Bilikisu Sungbo. The location is on Nigeria's tentative list of potential

---

quote:

---

Legends of the contemporary Ijebu clan link the Eredo to a fabled wealthy and childless widow named Bilikisu Sungbo. According to them, the monument was built as her personal memorial. In addition to this, her grave is believed to be located in Oke-Eiri, a town in a Muslim area just north of the Eredo. Pilgrims of Christian, Muslim and traditional African religions annually trek to this holy site in tribute to her .

Some have connected Bilikisu Sungbo with the legend of the Queen of Sheba, a figure who is mentioned in both the Bible and Quran. In the Hebrew Bible, she is described as having sent a caravan of gold, ivory and other goods from her kingdom to Solomon. In the Quran she is an Ethiopian sun-worshipper involved in the incense trade who converts to Islam; commentators added that her name was "Bilqis".

After excavations in 1999 the archaeologist Patrick Darling was quoted as saying, "I don't want to overplay the Sheba theory, but it cannot be discounted ... The local people believe it and that's what is important ... The most cogent argument against it at the moment is the dating

---

So maybe Bilikisu is not "THE SHEBA" of the bible but there is definitely some EASTERN SAHELIAN/NUBIAN/ component to the story that has a kernal of truth.. We will probably never know.. but we have to meet the culture where it is at.. myths and all
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova:

Wesley Muhammed often tries to shoehorn things back to Arabia.
In the article below, he argues that Yoruba of West Africa and their
religion derive from Arabia. This argument ties in with NOI claims as
to the prime place of the "Asiatic Black Man." Muhammed's twist is to
position Arabia as black, thus attempting to avoid the Caucasian
Arab Semite problem. If they were black then various arguments can
be made more palatable for blacks on racial grounds. He weaves
together many oral narratives and legends and stories to show that
indeed, the Yoruba are from Arabia. Says Muhammed:

quote:

---

"From the great [Black Arabian] religions came [Ifá], and the elements that went into [Ifá]. [Ifá] came out of
[Black Arabia]. All these great religions [of the Yorùbá] are derivative religions…If I wanted a great religion I
would bypass [Ifá] and go to the original…[Ifá is] carbon cop[y] of [Black Arabian] religions. We need to go
back and take the original and deal from the original rather than the carbon.
----------------- -------------

While the first half of this statement is factually true, who will follow the judgment of the second half of this statement? Ifá does derive in part from Black Arabia. Is this a good reason to
“bypass” it and go back instead to the original Black Arabian religion? I don’t think so. Yet, if we enforce Dr. Clark’s judgment of Islam then we must enforce this judgment on Ifá, lest we are guilty of an unjustifiable double standard.

Continuing to deny Black Arabia and its products (e.g. Islam) their rightful place within the Africa-centered paradigm has serious consequences. For example it renders our Ifá-practicing
Yoruban family a leg short: to deny Black Arabia is to make Ifá stand and hop about on one leg only."
from:
THE BLACK ARABIAN ORIGIN OF THE YORUBA
By Wesley Muhammad, PhD
November 4, 2013

---

Thus under Muhammed's argument, many of the ancient peoples of West Africa have little to do with Jews, but rather the source is Arabia. Kemet is not the main source of key elements- it would at best be a parallel source with Arabia. Rather than a black Kemetic source, the source is black Arabia.

---

I am confused by your post and seems you just argue to ague. I am addressing the Ugaritic as per Dr. Wesley Muhammad, while you start talking about West African groups. We don't know 100% his stance on the West African origins. Secondly, how do you explain all the "back migrations into Africa"?




Head of a Syrian
KhM 3896a
TILE; RAMESSES III/USERMAATRE-MERIAMUN

1186–1155 BC

http://www.globalegyptianmuseum.org/record.aspx?id=4906




Head of a Beduin from Syria
KhM 3896b
TILE; RAMESSES III/USERMAATRE-MERIAMUN


1186–1155 BC

http://www.globalegyptianmuseum.org/record.aspx?id=4907




Head of a Beduin from Syria
KhM 3896c
TILE; NEW KINGDOM


c. 1550 BC – c. 1077 BC

http://www.globalegyptianmuseum.org/record.aspx?id=4908





Above ancient Syrian

A Syrian mercenary drinking beer in the company of his Egyptian wife and child, c. 1350 BC. Photograph: Bettmann/Corbis

https://www.ancient.eu/image/11155/egyptian-stele-of-a-syrian-mercenary/



Tile with Philistine chief
Egyptian New Kingdom, Dynasty 20, reign of Ramesses III 1184–1153 B.C.
https://collections.mfa.org/objects/130485

Dr. Wesley Muhammed:

quote:

---

"In 2007 Prof. Richard Steiner, professor of Semitic languages and literatures at Yeshiva University (New York) delivered an important lecture at Hebrew University of Jerusalem entitled “Proto-Canaanite Spells in the Pyramid Texts: A Look at the History of Hebrew in the Third Millennium B.C.E.” Prof. Steiner has succeeded in deciphering an Egyptian text that has dumbfounded scholars for more than a century. The text (see illustration) is a collection of magical spells inscribed on the subterranean walls of the pyramid of the Egyptian king Unas at Saqqara. The pyramid was built in the twenty-fourth century BC, but Egyptologists agree that the texts are older, maybe as old as 3,000 BC. […]

The (Proto-)Canaanite language is a member of the Northwest Semitic branch of languages, which also includes Hebrew, Aramaic, Syriac, and others. Arabic has traditionally been placed in the South Semitic branch, but recently some scholars have grouped it with Canaanite (thus “Arabo-Canaanite”) within the Northwest Semitic or even “Central Semitic” branch, while others disagree. Nevertheless, the close relationship between (Proto-)Canaanite and Arabic is clear.

University of Michigan Professor Emeritus George Mendenhall, one of the world’s leading authorities on the Near East and Near Eastern languages, has identified the “earliest identifiable Arabic-speaking social group” as the Midianites, an important Kushite (i.e. Black) political entity that came into existence suddenly in the 13th century BC in northwest Arabia. This highly sophisticated culture spoke a language which is an archaic ancestor of modern Arabic. Further, observing that the earliest segments of Biblical Hebrew as a rule exhibit the highest percentage of Arabic cognates, Mendenhall affirms that the further back we go in time the closer Hebrew is to Arabic. Hebrew’s predecessor and source, the Canaanite language called Ugaritic, was also very similar to Arabic as revealed by recently discovered texts.

Documents excavated in Ras Shamra, a city in ancient Syria, by the Lattakia Department of Archeology show that ancient Ugaritic is very close to Arabic in grammar and vocabulary, with around 1,000 cognate terms. This closeness between Ugaritic/Canaanite and Arabic suggests that the ancient Proto-Canaanite and the ancient Proto-Arabic languages were close. This then raises the possibility that the ancient Canaanite language behind the Egypto-Semitic magic spells of King Unas’s pyramid was a Proto-Arabic language and thus reflect an Ancient Egyptian Arabic, not unlike that spoken by the Prophet Musa who was in Egypt around that time (ca. 2,000 BC)."

---

Bedouin man, Dimona, Israel.

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova:


On another side of the ledger, Garfield highlights the Ugaratic
elements pointing to SWest Eurasiam Ugaratic as the main source of many things.
Thus Black Kemet's influence would be of secondary importance.
-


Both models are contradicted by Dr. Ben Yochanan, who in "We the Black Jews" argues forcefully for an Egyptian source, not Arabia, or Middle East.

All models when applied to West Africa seem to downplay what the
indigenous people themselves developed.

---

Dr. Ben Yochanan had East African roots, not West African.

quote:

---

“Haplogroup L2a1 was found in two specimens from the Southern Levant Pre-Pottery Neolithic B site at Tell Halula, Syria, dating from the period between ca. 9600 and ca. 8000 BP or 7500-6000 BCE”

---

(Fernández, E. et al., MtDNA analysis of ancient samples from Castellón (Spain): Diachronic variation and genetic relationships, International Congress Series, vol. 1288 (April 2006), pp. 127-129.)

quote:

---

Jericho, Arabic Arīḥā, town located in the West Bank. Jericho is one of the earliest continuous settlements in the world, dating perhaps from about 9000 BCE. Archaeological excavations have demonstrated Jericho’s lengthy history.

---

https://www.britannica.com/place/Jericho-West-Bank

quote:

---

“Populations for which the ancient Caucasus genomes are best ancestral approximations include those of the Southern Caucasus and interestingly, South and Central Asia. Western Europe tends to be a mix of early farmers and western/eastern hunter-gatherers while Middle Eastern genomes are described as a mix of early farmers and Africans.

[…]

Caucasus hunter-gatherer contribution to subsequent populations. We next explored the extent to which Bichon and CHG contributed to contemporary populations using outgroup f3(African; modern, ancient) statistics, which measure the shared genetic history between an ancient genome and a modern population since they diverged from an African outgroup.

Discussion

Given their geographic origin, it seems likely that CHG and EF are the descendants of early colonists from Africa who stopped south of the Caucasus, in an area stretching south to the Levant and possibly east towards Central and South Asia. WHG, on the other hand, are likely the descendants of a wave that expanded further into Europe. The separation of these populations is one that stretches back before the Holocene, as indicated by local continuity through the Late Palaeolithic/Mesolithic boundary and deep coalescence estimates, which date to around the LGM and earlier.”

---

(Jones, E. R., G. Gonzalez-Fortes, S. Connell, V. Siska, A. Eriksson, R. Martiniano, R. L. McLaughlin, et al. 2015., Upper Palaeolithic genomes reveal deep roots of modern Eurasians.)

Nature Communications 6 (1): 8912. doi:10.1038/ncomms9912. http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/ncomms9912.

quote:

---

The haplotypes for the Tomb of the Shroud individuals are commonly distributed throughout the North of Africa and the Middle East through to Eastern Europe.

[…]

A recent hypothesis [45] suggests that leprosy may have first appeared in the region not with Alexander but sometime earlier (circa 400 B.C.E or later), with diseased young slaves conveyed from India to Egypt on cargo ships. More recently a review of the origins and spread of leprosy has identified an East African origin with various routes of migration out of Africa into the Middle East and beyond [46].

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=large&id=10.1371/journal.pone.0008319.t003

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=large&id=10.1371/journal.pone.0008319.t005

---

(Carney D. Matheson et al.
Molecular Exploration of the First-Century Tomb of the Shroud in Akeldama, Jerusalem)
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
We have to reorient our thinking about the region. not think North South SUB SAHARAN Africa but think of the world the way West Africans experienced it the most.. EAST TO WEST - WEST TO EAST along the Sahelian Corridor. Tishkoff already said shared genetics back and forth along this corridor is to be found.. when You continue EAST along the Sahel.. you got to past through SUDAN but right across there is Yemen..

---

It depends on when it occurred
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:


Musa’s Ancient Egyptian Arabic Discovered?
Dr. Wesley Muhammad
http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/Perspectives_1/article_9898.shtml

---

@zarahan, did you read this?

---

No, he did not. But it does prove that Dr. Wesley Muhammad goes by the consensus.

quote:

---

Ge'ez

Phonology
Vowels
a /æ/ < Proto-Semitic *a; later e
u /u/ < Proto-Semitic *ū
i /i/ < Proto-Semitic *ī
ā /aː/ < Proto-Semitic *ā; later a
e /e/ < Proto-Semitic *ay
ə /ɨ/ < Proto-Semitic *i, *u
o /o/ < Proto-Semitic *aw
Also transliterated as ä, ū/û, ī/î, a, ē/ê, e/i, ō/ô.

Geʽez consonants in relation to Proto-Semitic

Geʽez consonants have a triple opposition between voiceless, voiced, and ejective obstruents. The Proto-Semitic "emphasis" in Geʽez has been generalized to include emphatic p̣. Geʽez has phonologized labiovelars, descending from Proto-Semitic biphonemes. Geʽez ś ሠ Sawt is reconstructed as descended from a Proto-Semitic voiceless lateral fricative [ɬ]. Like Arabic, Geʽez merged Proto-Semitic š and s in ሰ. Apart from this, Geʽez phonology is comparably conservative; the only other Proto-Semitic phonological contrasts lost may be the interdental fricatives and ghayn.

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geʽez

quote:

---

Dr Pawel Wolf gave the MBI Al Jaber Public Lecture at the British Museum this year as part of the annual Seminar for Arabia Studies. The lecture was entitled 'Colonisation or Culture Transfer? The Almaqah temple of Wuqro (Tigray) sheds new light on Ethio-Sabaean culture contacts in the Northern Horn of Africa' and gave an insight into the fascinating work of the German Archaeological Institute (DAI) over the past few seasons.

Addi Akaweh, 2000 m above sea level, is in a region of Tigray which has not yet been explored for archaeological material. In the north of the Abyssinian highlands, the region is about 50 km north of the provincial capital of Mekelle, and seems to have been of importance due to its proximity to the ancient trade routes southeast of the main ancient centres of Axum and Yeha.

The temple of the Sabaean God Almaqah is one of the main archaeological discoveries of the area, though there are signs of an ancient settlement nearby and some building believed to have a sacred use at nearby Ziban Adi. They belong to a settlement area of the 1st millennium BC, a period of crucial social development in the Abyssinian highlands.

Since the Neolithic period, the Abyssinian highlands were part of a far-flung network of exchange relationships between North Africa and the Arabian Peninsula, and both African and South Arabian cultural components can be seen in its development. South Arabian inscriptions, temples and sculptures from the early 1st millennium BC, have been found at Yeha and Hawlti.

Various models of social development have been applied to explain the strong South Arabian presence such as colonization or economic and cultural relations. More research and work needs to be carried out before the contacts can be properly understood.

The primary objective of the work of the DAI in Addi Akaweh is to comprehensively record and explore the archaeological material to shed light on the local cultural transformation in the context of regional contacts. Intercultural contacts and external relations with neighbouring cultural areas such as South Arabia, the Nile Valley and the south are still unexplored, and need to be investigated cross-regionally.

The Almaqah temple offers the ideal opportunity for the study of specific religious cultural components. The reconstruction of spatial concepts, ritual procedures and votive practices sheds light on the sacral-political space of the regional elite. The temple was built in the 8th to 6th centuries BC on the ruins of an earlier building and continued in use with several modifications to probably the 3rd century BC. It resembles the early South Arabian religious buildings in form and is built from local stone. Some of its most important features are a betyl made from naturally rounded boulders and perfectly preserved and libation altar donated by a hitherto unknown king named W'RN. His dedicatory inscription proves the ancient name of Yeha for the first time and demonstrates its importance as a national religious and political centre. It also shows that elements of royal elite cultural and ideological traditions of South Arabia and the African region are used together. C14 dating confirmed the Ethiopian Sabaean inscriptions to date to the 7th century BC.

---

(Carolyn Perry, July 26, 2012, The Sabaean Temple of Almaqah in Addi Akaweh (Tigray), Ethiopia)

https://carolynperry.blogspot.com/2012/07/the-sabaean-temple-of-almaqah-in-addi.html
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
I am not going to discount any Ugaritic evidence since I don't know enough about it to be honest... However, You know this is how I know Garfield is an agent.. he is not actually studying African history/ or local West African ORAL history...he thinks of west africa as the DARK CONTINENT isolated from the larger world. this is EUROCENTRIC thinking and just a short foray into W. African cuisine tells you otherwise.. We have to reorient our thinking about the region. not think North South SUB SAHARAN Africa but think of the world the way West Africans experienced it the most.. EAST TO WEST - WEST TO EAST along the Sahelian Corridor. Tishkoff already said shared genetics back and forth along this corridor is to be found.. when You continue EAST along the Sahel.. you got to past through SUDAN but right across there is Yemen.. this is not a far trek and is the one most used for the Muslim pilgrimage. Wesley has an AGENDA but he does his HOMEWORK and his papers are well sourced academically.

[...]

So maybe Bilikisu is not "THE SHEBA" of the bible but there is definitely some EASTERN SAHELIAN/NUBIAN/ component to the story that has a kernal of truth.. We will probably never know.. but we have to meet the culture where it is at.. myths and all

---

We can't ignore the consensus in scholarship, just to ignore it, without challenging it. That is what the old scholars did like Dr. Yosef Ben Jochannan. etc. There has been very little built since those days, only repeating what they said for 20 to almost 30 years now. Others have moved on…

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
:The Influence of Egypt on the Torah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIQL--dxGMs


Dr. James Hoffmeier

November 15,2020
^^^^This one IS GOLD!!!

---

Ironically the alleged "Hebrew exodus" from Egypt was when Egypt was under Greco-Roman control. As the story is told.

quote:

---

Egyptian Tomb in Israel

The discovery of an Egyptian-style tomb at Tel Halif in the Negev Desert suggests an Egyptian colonial presence in southern Israel ca. 3000 B.C. Most burials in the region are in caves or shaft tombs attributed to the Canaanites, but this one, built during the Early Bronze 1B period (3300-3000 B.C.), is typical of contemporary tombs in Egypt, according to excavators Thomas Levy of the University of California, San Diego, and David Alon of the Joe Alon Regional Research Center in Israel. A 30-foot-long passageway descends to the burial chamber, which is about 26 feet long, 16 feet wide, and nine and one-half feet high. Within the dome-shaped chamber is a plastered stone platform on which the skeleton of a woman was found. About 25 years old when she died, she was found in a fetal position facing east, characteristic of Egyptian burials.

That an Egyptian was buried at Tel Halif "gives us evidence of a full-blown Egyptian colony in Israel right after the crystallization of the first Egyptian state," says Levy. "Egyptians were known to have very profound and elaborate belief systems about the afterlife and what was required to get there. One of these requirements was to die and be properly entombed on Egyptian soil. I think it's very likely that this part of southern Israel was considered part of greater Egypt during this period."

Egyptian ceramics, seal impressions, and bread molds found at Tel Halif support an Egyptian occupation. Among these artifacts is a potsherd engraved with the serekh, or sign, of King Narmer, who is believed to have united Upper and Lower Egypt between 3050 and 3000 B.C.

---

https://archive.archaeology.org/9701/newsbriefs/negev.html

Ancient Faces: Romano-Egyptian Mummy Portrait of a Bearded Man

Place: Egypt (Place created)
Date: about 150 – 170
This image is housed at the Getty Villa. This is an educational center and museum dedicated to the study of the arts and cultures of ancient Greece, Rome, and Etruria. The collection has 44,000 Greek, Roman, and Etruscan antiquities dating from 6,500 BC to 400 AD.













 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
We don't know 100% his stance on the West African origins.

---

That's the problem. He represents a religious group who believes everything Fard Muhammad and Elijah Muhammad said to the finest detail is true and neither of them had any credentials in history or science.
And the vast majority of the followers of this group are of West African decent so if after years of him doing lectures and writing books and we still don't know his views on West Africans is suspicious.
_______________________

Confirmation bias

Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values. People display this bias when they select information that supports their views, ignoring contrary information, or when they interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing attitudes. The effect is strongest for desired outcomes, for emotionally charged issues, and for deeply entrenched beliefs.

______________________

So this is what Dr. Wesley Muhammad. On a religious level he believes everything Master Fard and Elijah said is true and then he goes into legitimate scholarship looking for only the information he thinks fits their narrative.
If it doesn't fit their narrative he ignores it.

And if Master Fard and Elijah said some crazy sh!t about mother ships he doesn't deal with that. He just leaves that out.

This is similar to some of Biblical Archaeologists. Many come from the position of being Christians. So then they look at a place like Ancient Egypt. Their perspective is what the bible says is true. So then they look at legitimate research on Ancient Egypt which they think verifies things said in the bible and then they play around with some things which are not firmly known like the precise date something occurred. They pick and choose things that they think confirms their religious beliefs.

Of course they will call it all science and not admit to the confirmation bias or personal religious beliefs influencing their analysis
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

He resembles Colin Kaepernick
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
We don't know 100% his stance on the West African origins.

---

That's the problem. He represents a religious group who believes everything Fard Muhammad and Elijah Muhammad said to the finest detail is true and neither of them had any credentials in history or science.
And the vast majority of the followers of this group are of West African decent so if after years of him doing lectures and writing books and we still don't know his views on West Africans is suspicious.

---

I disagree with you here, because all he does is reference to scholarly and scientific publications to validate his theory, or rather Elijah Muhammad's theories. The NOI has scientists. And admittedly Dr. Wesley Muhammad has said that he's a historical deconstructionist.

quote:

---

"Wesley Muhammad born June 14 in Detroit, Michigan is an American author and a minister in the Nation of Islam. He received a Bachelor of Arts in Religious Studies from Morehouse College (Atlanta, GA), graduating with honors in 1994. In 2003 received a master's degree in Islamic Studies from the University of Michigan (Ann Arbor), whence he also received a Ph.D. in Islamic Studies with a focus on Early Theological Development in Islam.

Muhammad's research has been published in the International Journal of Middle East Studies, the Journal of the American Oriental Society, and the American Journal of Islamic Social Sciences. He has been an instructor on courses on Islamic Studies, Religious Studies, African American Religion, and Middle Eastern Studies at the University of Toledo and Michigan State University.[1]

In 2013 he was a scholarly aide to Minister Louis Farrakhan at Nation of Islam National Headquarters Mosque Maryam in Chicago.[2]"

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wesley_Muhammad

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

He resembles Colin Kaepernick

---

Agreed.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Yuck on slimy okry


Some cuisines cook it down soft no slime.
Try from the Hindu or the Greek, naming them
because their restaurants are ubiquitous. S&P
esnogas are far and wide and sometimes reserve
okry for festival meals though also on the qiddush
menu immediately after communal Shabbath service.

This Horseradish Tree. Has it something like
common hr root? Something the African Jews
in the Americas can adopt for our P*sahh
Seder Plates maybe?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

Horseradish Tree... Found Wild in West Africa

quote:

---

Hebrewisms of West Africa: an original discovery of a dish similar to the Jewish dafina

---

The name Ewedu.... jumps out at me don't know if it is a coincidence or not... but it is clearly a tropical plant...

History. Okra probably originated somewhere around Ethiopia, and was cultivated by the ancient Egyptians by the 12th century B.C. it's was called Bamia in Israel and the flower looks like a smaller Hibiscus... I know Isreali's who eat Okra on the regular so that was one I already knew..



I have always hated okra.. I can't take the slimyness of it, deep fried is the closest I will get to it... so I doubt if I would be able to eat Ewedu

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
We don't know 100% his stance on the West African origins.

---

That's the problem. He represents a religious group who believes everything Fard Muhammad and Elijah Muhammad said to the finest detail is true and neither of them had any credentials in history or science.
And the vast majority of the followers of this group are of West African decent so if after years of him doing lectures and writing books and we still don't know his views on West Africans is suspicious.

---

I disagree with you here, because all he does is reference to scholarly and scientific publications to validate his theory, or rather Elijah Muhammad's theories. The NOI has scientists. And admittedly Dr. Wesley Muhammad has said that he's a historical deconstructionist.

---

I think you are agreeing with me you said
all he does is reference to scholarly and scientific publications to validate his theory, or rather Elijah Muhammad's theories.

That is not what scientists do. They do not use science to try to validate religious doctrine

Nobody in the NOI says what Elijah Muhammad says are his theories. That is doctrine they regard as facts
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
^^^^^ Yes I would eat Okra fried and breaded..

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Yuck on slimy okry


Some cuisines cook it down soft no slime.
Try from the Hindu or the Greek, naming them
because their restaurants are ubiquitous. S&P
esnogas are far and wide and sometimes reserve
okry for festival meals though also on the qiddush
menu immediately after communal Shabbath service.

This Horseradish Tree. Has it something like
common hr root? Something the African Jews
in the Americas can adopt for our P*sahh
Seder Plates maybe?

---

[/QUOTE]The Horseradish Tree is the Moringa... is that allowalble on the passover (seder) plate?

UNLEAVENED BREAD MORINGA FOR PASSOVER RECIPE ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdxPEzMAWD8

These trees are fast growing and perfect for the Arizona ( latitude 33 degrees same as Egypt and some parts of the Levant) climate and soil so I had planned on planting a couple in my Parents house back yard...and this was before I knew it was in the bible..


By the way.. Women in Sudan still use Moses Method of sweetening water..

Magic tree seeds” to purify dirty water - The New Humanitarianhttps://www.thenewhumanitarian.org › report › global-...
Feb 10, 2011 — Communities in Sudan have been using the multi-purpose Moringa tree as a source of food and as a water purifier for centuries.
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
I think you are agreeing with me you said
all he does is reference to scholarly and scientific publications to validate his theory, or rather Elijah Muhammad's theories.

That is not what scientists do. They do not use science to try to validate religious doctrine

Nobody in the NOI says what Elijah Muhammad says are his theories. That is doctrine they regard as facts

---

Yes, I did misinterpreted your post, because of the opening statement. "That's the problem". But they do have scientists in the NOI. Wesley bases his theories on the doctrine by Elijah Muhammad, that is certainly true. And for some reason modern day science seems to be in agreement with what Elijah Muhammad stated and wrote decades ago. And he had no academic, let alone scientific background.

I just watched the 7th part with Ehav Ever., of the 20 20 series by Garfield. I am now watching part 8 with Dr. Tudor Parfitt.

quote:

---

I was surprised that she used poultry, rather than ham hock, until she explained that her grandmother joined the Nation of Islam while living in New York in the 1970s. “Come to find out there’s a very strong West African and Sufi presence in the Lowcountry,” Ganaway said, referring to the geographic and cultural region along South Carolina’s coast that includes the Sea Islands. “When my grandmother started attending a Sufi mosque that was predominantly West African, I started to recognize all of the similarities in our foods.”

---

(Samin Nosrat, Sept. 22/ 2020, A Dish That Reflects Our Nation: Okra Soup)

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/22/magazine/samin-nosrat-okra-soup.html
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Yuck on slimy okry

---

Okra is one of the best greens ever. Super delicious with health benefits "out of this world".

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
The Horseradish Tree is the Moringa... is that allowalble on the passover (seder) plate?

UNLEAVENED BREAD MORINGA FOR PASSOVER RECIPE ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdxPEzMAWD8

These trees are fast growing and perfect for the Arizona ( latitude 33 degrees same as Egypt and some parts of the Levant) climate and soil so I had planned on planting a couple in my Parents house back yard...and this was before I knew it was in the bible..


By the way.. Women in Sudan still use Moses Method of sweetening water..

Magic tree seeds” to purify dirty water - The New Humanitarianhttps://www.thenewhumanitarian.org › report › global-...
Feb 10, 2011 — Communities in Sudan have been using the multi-purpose Moringa tree as a source of food and as a water purifier for centuries.

---

ADOS took Okra with them to the Americas.

NBK with RaBorn once did a special, where they addressed this as well.

quote:

---

A variation of the stew, "Virginia peanut soup", even traveled with enslaved Africans to North America.[11]

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peanut_stew#cite_ref-11

quote:

---

Despite these longstanding myths, as early as 1885 there were writers who recognized gumbo as the culinary legacy of the African/American community. Although the French contributed the concept of the roux and the Choctaw invented file powder, the modern soup is overwhelmingly West African in character. Not only does it resemble many of the okra-based soups found in contemporary Senegal, the name of the soup its self is derived from the Bantu words for the okra contained within (guingombo, tchingombo, or kingombo. A legacy of the colonial era, the modern French word for okra is quite simply “gombo”).

---

https://whatscookingamerica.net/History/GumboHistory.htm

quote:

---

Okra (Hibiscus esculentus) is also called "gumbo" in this country, although the latter term is more often applied to soups or other dishes which contain okra. Both of these names are of African origin. "Gumbo" is believed to be a corruption of a Portuguese corruption, quingombo, of the word quillobo, native name for the plant in the Congo and Angola area of Africa.

Okra apparently originated in what the geobotanists call the Abyssinian center of origin of cultivated plants, an area that includes present-day Ethiopia, the mountainous or plateau portion of Eritrea, and the eastern, higher part of the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan. Considering the little contact between that region and the rest of the world within historic times, it is not surprising that little is known about the early history and distribution of okra.

The routes by which okra was taken from Ethiopia to North Africa, the eastern Mediterranean, Arabia, and India, and when, are by no means certain. Although it has been commonly cultivated in Egypt for many hundreds of years, no sign of it has ever been found in any of the ancient monuments or relics of old Egypt.

Since the Spanish Moors and the Egyptians of the 12th and 13th centuries used an Arab word for okra, it probably was taken into Egypt by the Moslems from the East who conquered Egypt in the 7th century. It requires no stretch of the imagination to suppose that the plant earlier was taken from Ethiopia to Arabia across the narrow Red Sea or the narrower strait at its southern end.

[…]

One of the earliest accounts of okra is by a Spanish Moor who visited Egypt in 1216. He described the plant in detail, as cultivated by the Egyptians, and stated that the pods when young and tender were eaten with meal. (Southerners in our own country know how to cook it with corn meal-slice the pods, dip the pieces in meal, and fry them.)

Because of the outstanding popularity of okra in the French cookery of Louisiana, and its slow gain in popularity elsewhere in this country, it is safe to assume that it was introduced to this country by the French colonists of Louisiana in the early 1700's. It had been introduced to the New World, however, before 1658, reaching Brazil supposedly from Africa. It was known in Surinam in 1686.

[...]

---

https://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/archives/parsons/publications/vegetabletravelers/okra.html
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova:


[. . .] those who argue for a Kemetic origin to many ancient Hebraic
religion elements, such as Dr. Yosef Ben Jochannan.

Dr. Ben Jochanan's book "We the Black Jews" breaks down this argument in detail.
[YYT EDIT of Zar's original link to selections of Dr Ben on myseries/comparative works]

Per Dr. Ben the mysteries of Egypt through the Egyptian Book of
the Coming Forth by Day (Book of the Dead) gave rise to Judaism,
and that various saying attributed to Solomon are actually derived from
the Pharaohs.

---

.
















Sorry, even on the google site the Times article
and the side by side Israelite - Egyptian wisdom
quotes by pseudonymous Solomon and Amenemope(sp)
are out of focus when zoomed. Click link 2 C @ google
Dr. Ben Jochanan's book "We the Black Jews" breaks down this argument in detail.
[YYT EDIT of Zar's original link to selections of Dr Ben on myseries/comparative works]


ES archive of the instructions
https://www.google.com/search?q=wisdom+amen+em+ope+site%3Aegyptsearch.com
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
I am not going to discount any Ugaritic evidence since I don't know enough about it to be honest... However, You know this is how I know Garfield is an agent.. he is not actually studying African history/ or local West African ORAL history...he thinks of west africa as the DARK CONTINENT isolated from the larger world. this is EUROCENTRIC thinking and just a short foray into W. African cuisine tells you otherwise.. We have to reorient our thinking about the region. not think North South SUB SAHARAN Africa but think of the world the way West Africans experienced it the most.. EAST TO WEST - WEST TO EAST along the Sahelian Corridor. Tishkoff already said shared genetics back and forth along this corridor is to be found.. when You continue EAST along the Sahel.. you got to past through SUDAN but right across there is Yemen.. this is not a far trek and is the one most used for the Muslim pilgrimage. Wesley has an AGENDA but he does his HOMEWORK and his papers are well sourced academically.

quote:

---

"From the great [Black Arabian] religions came [Ifá], and the elements that went into [Ifá]. [Ifá] came out of [Black Arabia]. All these great religions [of the Yorùbá] are derivative religions…If I wanted a great religion I would bypass [Ifá] and go to the original…[Ifá is] carbon cop[y] of [Black Arabian] religions. We need to go
back and take the original and deal from the original rather than the carbon.

---

While Wesley's language is strident, he is practicing apologetics after all, but instead of dismissing his arguments whole cloth I would prefer to entertain reasoned counter arguments that are as well sourced as Wesley's work..

Notably, it is not just desperate low self esteem African Americans making West African connections to the Nile valley, near east or Arabia.. it's west Africans themselves hundreds of years ago
what are we to make of Yoruba, Ewe, Igbo local history of migrations to their current point? Do we discount them as mere fantasy? Whose agenda do we serve when we do that?

Braima alias Abraham: A Study in Diffusion
M. D. W. Jeffreys
Folklore
Vol. 70, No. 1 (Mar., 1959), pp. 323-333 (11 pages)
Published By: Taylor & Francis, Ltd.




Some have connected Bilikisu Sungbo with the legend of the Queen of Sheba, a figure who is mentioned in both the Bible and Quran. In the Hebrew Bible, she is described as having sent a caravan of gold, ivory and other goods from her kingdom to Solomon. In the Quran she is an Ethiopian sun-worshipper involved in the incense trade who converts to Islam; commentators added that her name was "Bilqis".

After excavations in 1999 the archaeologist Patrick Darling was quoted as saying, "I don't want to overplay the Sheba theory, but it cannot be discounted ... The local people believe it and that's what is important ... The most cogent argument against it at the moment is the dating

---

So maybe Bilikisu is not "THE SHEBA" of the bible but there is definitely some EASTERN SAHELIAN/NUBIAN/ component to the story that has a kernal of truth.. We will probably never know.. but we have to meet the culture where it is at.. myths and all [/QUOTE]



] I am not going to discount any Ugaritic evidence since I don't know enough about it to be honest... However, You know this is how I know Garfield is an agent.. he is not actually studying African history/ or local West African ORAL history...he thinks of west africa as the DARK CONTINENT isolated from the larger world. this is EUROCENTRIC thinking and just a short foray into W. African cuisine tells you otherwise.. We have to reorient our thinking about the region. not think North South SUB SAHARAN Africa but think of the world the way West Africans experienced it the most.. EAST TO WEST - WEST TO EAST along the Sahelian Corridor.

Sure, I have no problem with much of what is said above, though I don’t think
everyone who makes such claims is necessarily some sort of conspiratorial
agent. Some are just i’gnant or uninformed. If you look at some writings of
NOI boss Elijah Muhammed he criticizes African culture as dark and backward
and too much into dancing and jiggin’ etc, and claims that it was the Muslims
that brought the blacks civilization. Today you would think a white or Arab racist was
writing. See page 145 of the recent book below on Black Power. Muhammed criticizes
American blacks for identifying with Africa as degrading, and that he was gonna
bring those Africans civilization.
--Black Power: Radical Politics and African American Identity
By Jeffrey O. G. Ogbar, 2019. p 145 GoogleBooks


. Wesley has an AGENDA but he does his HOMEWORK and his papers are well sourced academically. ]While Wesley's language is strident, he is practicing apologetics after all, but instead of dismissing his arguments whole cloth I would prefer to entertain reasoned counter arguments that are as well sourced as Wesley's work..

Yes, reasoned counter-arguments are needed not just labeling people “agents.” If the
label “agents” is to be tossed around, then people could also well argue that Wesley
Muhammed himself is a Muslim “Agent” seeking to dilute indigenous African faith.
And Muslims could no doubt charge deniers with being pagan agents.

There are several reasoned counter-arguments to Wesley Muhammed’s claims.
See the critique below by an African scholar for example. Among other things
he says that while there are plenty of pro-Muslim attempt to link Yoruba to Arabia,
Wesley list of parallels between the Yoruba and Arabia are too shallow, generic
or superficial to have strong plausibility. And just because some Yoruba stories
speak of people coming from “the East” does not mean they came from Arabia.
The same stories of “the East” it is pointed out, are also used by proponents of
an Ancient Egypt source. Oral tradition can thus be contradictory in use with
various advocates cherry-picking a story that they think fits their particular
version, which may clash with another version using the same oral traditions.
Reflection on the theory of the Arab origin of the Yoruba people
--Jack Agai, 2021. Theologia Viatorum 45(1), a77.

In turn, modern scholars such as J.A. Atanda, a Nigerian historian from the University of
Ibadan, advances a current scholarly view, which dismisses the claim of Arabian origins in
the light of some linguistic and archaeological data suggesting indigenous African origins.
(Atanda , JA, ( 1980 ) An Introduction to Yoruba History Ibadan University Press .)
and Pioneer, Patriot and Patriarch: Samuel Johnson and the Yoruba People, Fayola 1994.


Notably, it is not just desperate low self esteem African Americans making West African connections to the Nile valley, near east or Arabia.. it's west Africans themselves hundreds of years ago
what are we to make of Yoruba, Ewe, Igbo local history of migrations to their current point? Do we discount them as mere fantasy? Whose agenda do we serve when we do that?

Braima alias Abraham: A Study in Diffusion M. D. W. Jeffreys
Folklore Vol. 70, No. 1 (Mar., 1959), pp. 323-333 (11 pages)
Published By: Taylor & Francis, Ltd.

Fair enough but the old folklore does not necessarily a credible Arabian connection
make, for proponents of a Kemetic source, also use the same traditions of “the East”
to argue for their particular model. Most of the attempted linkage to Arabia etc has
arisen with the coming of Islam, and clashes with other traditional Yoruba traditions.
If some of these “Arabian” claims are accepted one agenda served is a Muslim agenda.
But others could say a pagan agenda designed to hinder the "true" Islam.

For example the mythical founder of the Yoruba, Odùdúwà is seen as a renegade Muslim
in stories referenced by Wesley Muhammed. But other traditionalists dismiss this, for Odùdúwà.
was king of the prime source, Ife Ife, the source of creation from which sprang all life on habitable
earth. Odùdúwà descended from heaven and parted the waters creating dry land. Wesley’s
reference to stories as to Odùdúwà being from Mecca to give the natives enlightenment may
tie in well with NOI theologies as regards the original black Semites from Mecca, the banishment
of the descendants of Yacub from Mecca etc and so on which certainly gives Mecca prominence,
but they are contradicted by the creation narratives held dear by many Yoruba- Ife Ife is
the source, not Muslim Mecca..

Yet others like the first writing on the history if the Yoruba in Nigeria by the Muslim
sultan of Sokoto argue that the Yoruba ancestors were driven out of the East (Iraq,
Caanan, Egypt, Yemen etc) as refugees, from whence they migrated to Nigeria.
This is the version you reference in Braima alias Abraham: A Study in Diffusion.

The above are in turn contradicted by Dr.Ben-Yochanan a Jew who also argues for Kemet.
These in turn are contradicted by a traditional Ife Ife version which discounts any help from
Mecca or Kemet in favor of a primordial native source from whence all sprung.


Some have connected Bilikisu Sungbo with the legend of the Queen of Sheba, a figure who is mentioned in both the Bible and Quran. In the Hebrew Bible, she is described as having sent a caravan of gold, ivory and other goods from her kingdom to Solomon. In the Quran she is an Ethiopian sun-worshipper involved in the incense trade who converts to Islam; commentators added that her name was "Bilqis".

OK but the Queen of Sheba legend is usually dated to Solomon’s reign, c. 970–931 BCE,
centuries before Islam showed up, which is good reason for ordinary people , not “agents”
to question the claim.


After excavations in 1999 the archaeologist Patrick Darling was quoted as saying, [b]"I don't want to overplay the Sheba theory, but it cannot be discounted ... The local people believe it and that's what is important ... The most cogent argument against it at the moment is the dating

Exactly. Just common sense as in the Solomon dating makes certain thing suspect on
factual grounds. But as far as religious faith there will be many clashing interpretations.
People are entitled to work out or embrace the system that seems best to them.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Ezekiel 29


1
בַּשָּׁנָה֙ הָעֲשִׂירִ֔ית בָּעֲשִׂרִ֕י בִּשְׁנֵ֥ים עָשָׂ֖ר לַחֹ֑דֶשׁ הָיָ֥ה דְבַר־יְהוָ֖ה אֵלַ֥י לֵאמֹֽר׃
In the tenth year, on the twelfth day of the tenth month, the word of the LORD came to me:
2
בֶּן־אָדָ֕ם שִׂ֣ים פָּנֶ֔יךָ עַל־פַּרְעֹ֖ה מֶ֣לֶךְ מִצְרָ֑יִם וְהִנָּבֵ֣א עָלָ֔יו וְעַל־מִצְרַ֖יִם כֻּלָּֽהּ׃
O mortal, turn your face against Pharaoh king of Egypt, and prophesy against him and against all Egypt.
3
דַּבֵּ֨ר וְאָמַרְתָּ֜ כֹּֽה־אָמַ֣ר ׀ אֲדֹנָ֣י יְהוִ֗ה הִנְנִ֤י עָלֶ֙יךָ֙ פַּרְעֹ֣ה מֶֽלֶךְ־מִצְרַ֔יִם הַתַּנִּים֙ הַגָּד֔וֹל הָרֹבֵ֖ץ בְּת֣וֹךְ יְאֹרָ֑יו אֲשֶׁ֥ר אָמַ֛ר לִ֥י יְאֹרִ֖י וַאֲנִ֥י עֲשִׂיתִֽנִי׃
Speak these words: Thus said the Lord GOD: I am going to deal with you, O Pharaoh king of Egypt, Mighty monster, sprawling in your channels, Who said, My Nile is my own; I made it for myself.
4
וְנָתַתִּ֤י חחיים [חַחִים֙] בִּלְחָיֶ֔יךָ וְהִדְבַּקְתִּ֥י דְגַת־יְאֹרֶ֖יךָ בְּקַשְׂקְשֹׂתֶ֑יךָ וְהַעֲלִיתִ֙יךָ֙ מִתּ֣וֹךְ יְאֹרֶ֔יךָ וְאֵת֙ כָּל־דְּגַ֣ת יְאֹרֶ֔יךָ בְּקַשְׂקְשֹׂתֶ֖יךָ תִּדְבָּֽק׃
I will put hooks in your jaws, And make the fish of your channels Cling to your scales; I will haul you up from your channels, With all the fish of your channels Clinging to your scales.
5
וּנְטַשְׁתִּ֣יךָ הַמִּדְבָּ֗רָה אוֹתְךָ֙ וְאֵת֙ כָּל־דְּגַ֣ת יְאֹרֶ֔יךָ עַל־פְּנֵ֤י הַשָּׂדֶה֙ תִּפּ֔וֹל לֹ֥א תֵאָסֵ֖ף וְלֹ֣א תִקָּבֵ֑ץ לְחַיַּ֥ת הָאָ֛רֶץ וּלְע֥וֹף הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם נְתַתִּ֥יךָ לְאָכְלָֽה׃
And I will fling you into the desert, With all the fish of your channels. You shall be left lying in the open, Ungathered and unburied: I have given you as food To the beasts of the earth And the birds of the sky.
6
וְיָֽדְעוּ֙ כָּל־יֹשְׁבֵ֣י מִצְרַ֔יִם כִּ֖י אֲנִ֣י יְהוָ֑ה יַ֧עַן הֱיוֹתָ֛ם מִשְׁעֶ֥נֶת קָנֶ֖ה לְבֵ֥ית יִשְׂרָאֵֽל׃
Then all the inhabitants of Egypt shall know That I am the LORD. Because you were a staff of reed To the House of Israel:
7
בְּתָפְשָׂ֨ם בְּךָ֤ בכפך [בַכַּף֙] תֵּר֔וֹץ וּבָקַעְתָּ֥ לָהֶ֖ם כָּל־כָּתֵ֑ף וּבְהִֽשָּׁעֲנָ֤ם עָלֶ֙יךָ֙ תִּשָּׁבֵ֔ר וְהַעֲמַדְתָּ֥ לָהֶ֖ם כָּל־מָתְנָֽיִם׃ (ס)
When they grasped you with the hand, you would splinter, And wound all their shoulders, And when they leaned on you, you would break, And make all their loins unsteady.
8
לָכֵ֗ן כֹּ֤ה אָמַר֙ אֲדֹנָ֣י יְהוִ֔ה הִנְנִ֛י מֵבִ֥יא עָלַ֖יִךְ חָ֑רֶב וְהִכְרַתִּ֥י מִמֵּ֖ךְ אָדָ֥ם וּבְהֵמָֽה׃
Assuredly, thus said the Lord GOD: Lo, I will bring a sword against you, and will cut off man and beast from you,
9
וְהָיְתָ֤ה אֶֽרֶץ־מִצְרַ֙יִם֙ לִשְׁמָמָ֣ה וְחָרְבָּ֔ה וְיָדְע֖וּ כִּֽי־אֲנִ֣י יְהוָ֑ה יַ֧עַן אָמַ֛ר יְאֹ֥ר לִ֖י וַאֲנִ֥י עָשִֽׂיתִי׃
so that the land of Egypt shall fall into desolation and ruin. And they shall know that I am the LORD—because he boasted, “The Nile is mine, and I made it.”
10
לָכֵ֛ן הִנְנִ֥י אֵלֶ֖יךָ וְאֶל־יְאֹרֶ֑יךָ וְנָתַתִּ֞י אֶת־אֶ֣רֶץ מִצְרַ֗יִם לְחָרְבוֹת֙ חֹ֣רֶב שְׁמָמָ֔ה מִמִּגְדֹּ֥ל סְוֵנֵ֖ה וְעַד־גְּב֥וּל כּֽוּשׁ׃
Assuredly, I am going to deal with you and your channels, and I will reduce the land of Egypt to utter ruin and desolation, from Migdol to Syene, all the way to the border of Nubia.
11
לֹ֤א תַעֲבָר־בָּהּ֙ רֶ֣גֶל אָדָ֔ם וְרֶ֥גֶל בְּהֵמָ֖ה לֹ֣א תַעֲבָר־בָּ֑הּ וְלֹ֥א תֵשֵׁ֖ב אַרְבָּעִ֥ים שָׁנָֽה׃
No foot of man shall traverse it, and no foot of beast shall traverse it; and it shall remain uninhabited for forty years.
12
וְנָתַתִּ֣י אֶת־אֶרֶץ֩ מִצְרַ֨יִם שְׁמָמָ֜ה בְּת֣וֹךְ ׀ אֲרָצ֣וֹת נְשַׁמּ֗וֹת וְעָרֶ֙יהָ֙ בְּת֨וֹךְ עָרִ֤ים מָֽחֳרָבוֹת֙ תִּֽהְיֶ֣יןָ שְׁמָמָ֔ה אַרְבָּעִ֖ים שָׁנָ֑ה וַהֲפִצֹתִ֤י אֶת־מִצְרַ֙יִם֙ בַּגּוֹיִ֔ם וְֽזֵרִיתִ֖ים בָּאֲרָצֽוֹת׃ (פ)
For forty years I will make the land of Egypt the most desolate of desolate lands, and its cities shall be the most desolate of ruined cities. And I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations and disperse them throughout the countries.
13
כִּ֛י כֹּ֥ה אָמַ֖ר אֲדֹנָ֣י יְהוִ֑ה מִקֵּ֞ץ אַרְבָּעִ֤ים שָׁנָה֙ אֲקַבֵּ֣ץ אֶת־מִצְרַ֔יִם מִן־הָעַמִּ֖ים אֲשֶׁר־נָפֹ֥צוּ שָֽׁמָּה׃
Further, thus said the Lord GOD: After a period of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the peoples among whom they were dispersed.
14
וְשַׁבְתִּי֙ אֶת־שְׁב֣וּת מִצְרַ֔יִם וַהֲשִׁבֹתִ֤י אֹתָם֙ אֶ֣רֶץ פַּתְר֔וֹס עַל־אֶ֖רֶץ מְכֽוּרָתָ֑ם וְהָ֥יוּ שָׁ֖ם מַמְלָכָ֥ה שְׁפָלָֽה׃
I will restore the fortunes of the Egyptians and bring them back to the land of their origin, the land of Pathros, and there they shall be a lowly kingdom.
15
מִן־הַמַּמְלָכוֹת֙ תִּהְיֶ֣ה שְׁפָלָ֔ה וְלֹֽא־תִתְנַשֵּׂ֥א ע֖וֹד עַל־הַגּוֹיִ֑ם וְהִ֨מְעַטְתִּ֔ים לְבִלְתִּ֖י רְד֥וֹת בַּגּוֹיִֽם׃
It shall be the lowliest of all the kingdoms, and shall not lord it over the nations again. I will reduce the Egyptians, so that they shall have no dominion over the nations.
16
וְלֹ֣א יִֽהְיֶה־עוֹד֩ לְבֵ֨ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֤ל לְמִבְטָח֙ מַזְכִּ֣יר עָוֺ֔ן בִּפְנוֹתָ֖ם אַחֲרֵיהֶ֑ם וְיָ֣דְע֔וּ כִּ֥י אֲנִ֖י אֲדֹנָ֥י יְהוִֽה׃ (פ)
Never again shall they be the trust of the House of Israel, recalling its guilt in having turned to them. And they shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Exodus 23:13

בְכֹ֛ל אֲשֶׁר־אָמַ֥רְתִּי אֲלֵיכֶ֖ם תִּשָּׁמֵ֑רוּ וְשֵׁ֨ם אֱלֹהִ֤ים אֲחֵרִים֙ לֹ֣א תַזְכִּ֔ירוּ לֹ֥א יִשָּׁמַ֖ע עַל־פִּֽיךָ׃

Be on guard concerning all that I have told you. Make no mention of the names of other gods; they shall not be heard on your lips.
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Ezekiel 29
14
וְשַׁבְתִּי֙ אֶת־שְׁב֣וּת מִצְרַ֔יִם וַהֲשִׁבֹתִ֤י אֹתָם֙ אֶ֣רֶץ פַּתְר֔וֹס עַל־אֶ֖רֶץ מְכֽוּרָתָ֑ם וְהָ֥יוּ שָׁ֖ם מַמְלָכָ֥ה שְׁפָלָֽה׃
I will restore the fortunes of the Egyptians and bring them back to the land of their origin, the land of Pathros, and there they shall be a lowly kingdom.

---

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16127#v14

Thanks for posting this. Land of Pathros.

quote:

---

path'-ros (pathros; Egyptian Pata resii, the "South land"; Septuagint ge Pathoures): The Hebrew form of the Egyptian name for Upper Egypt (Isaiah 11:11 Jeremiah 44:1, 15 Ezekiel 29:14; Ezekiel 30:14).

---

https://bibleatlas.org/pathros.htm

quote:

---

PATHROS

(Pathʹros).

Pathros is regularly associated with Egypt (Heb., Mits·raʹyim). (Eze 30:13, 14) Most scholars connect the name Pathros with an Egyptian expression meaning “Land of the South” and evidently referring to Upper Egypt. Upper Egypt generally designates the region of the Nile Valley running from a point somewhat S of Memphis on up (south) to Syene (modern Aswan) at the first cataract of the Nile. The text at Isaiah 11:11, which foretells the return of Israelite exiles from ‘Egypt (Mizraim), Pathros and Cush,’ would seem to corroborate the placing of Pathros somewhere in Upper Egypt, with Cush (Ethiopia) bordering it on the S. An Assyrian inscription of King Esar-haddon gives a similar lineup, referring to “Egypt (Musur), Paturisi and Nubia [Kusu, or Cush].”​—Ancient Near Eastern Texts, edited by J. Pritchard, 1974, p. 290.

Ezekiel 29:14 calls Pathros “the land of their [the Egyptians’] origin.” The traditional Egyptian view, as recounted by Herodotus (II, 4, 15, 99), apparently corroborates this, as it makes Upper Egypt, and particularly the region of Thebes, the seat of the first Egyptian kingdom, under a king whom Herodotus calls Menes, a name not found in Egyptian records. Diodorus Siculus (first century B.C.E.) records a similar view. (Diodorus of Sicily, I, 45, 1) The Egyptian tradition set forth by these Greek historians may be a feeble echo of the true history presented in the Bible regarding Mizraim (whose name came to stand for Egypt) and his descendants, including Pathrusim.​—Ge 10:13, 14.

Following the desolation of Judah by Nebuchadnezzar, a remnant of the Jews fled into Egypt. Among the places listed in which they dwelt are Migdol, Tahpanhes, Noph (all cities of Lower Egypt), and “the land of Pathros.” (Jer 44:1) Here they engaged in idolatrous worship, resulting in Jehovah’s condemnation of them and the warning of a coming conquest of Egypt by Nebuchadnezzar. (Jer 44:15, 26-30) Papyrus evidence of the fifth century B.C.E. shows a Jewish colony situated all the way at the southern end of ancient Egypt at Elephantine by Syene.

---

wol.jw.org




THE MORGAN LIBRARY MUSEUM/ART RESOURCE, NY
ENIGMATIC PAPYRUS ROLL. The decipherment of P. Amherst 63 has been a long and painful process of trial and error. Written in Demotic, a cursive script derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs, this manuscript sheds new light on the Israelite religion and history of the Hebrew Bible. The cultic song contained in column XII, pictured here, is strinkingly similar to the Biblical Psalm 20.




Brooklyn Musem, Bequest of Theodora Wilbour/Photograph by Bruce and Kenneth Zuckerman, West Semitic Research
IN THIS MARRIAGE DOCUMENT, dated to July 3, 449 B.C.E., Ananiah, who was a Jewish temple official on Elephantine, asks Meshullam for the hand of his daughter Tamut. The manuscript belongs to a group of papyri and ostraca (inscribed potsherds) that allow a fascinating glimpse into the daily life of Ananiah and Tamut and of other Arameans and Jews at Syene and Elephantine during the first Persian occupation of Egypt (525–404 B.C.E.).

https://www.baslibrary.org/biblical-archaeology-review/44/4/3
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Stir fried w/tomato and Indian Ocean spices for me please.
I share your aversion and had to excuse myself from an
American table serving okra, embarrassing hosts and self.

=-=-=

No reason HT isn't kasher l*pesahh.
It's not wheat rye oats spelt nor barley.
Two of those ingredients no observant
Israels are permitted the eight days
is in that YouTube. The vid producer
does not keep it kosher for the passover.

On the P*sahh Seder Plate are symbolic foods.
Bitter herb is one of the prescribed. Many
use freshly sliced horseradish (good for
post winter lungs and sinuses). So I'm
wondering if the tree offers something
to substitute that's bitter like common
horseraddish.

SIDEBAR
Euro ethnocentrism says some Brit invented the
sandwich. Ha! We been making Massah Bitter Herb
'samiches' since the first Passover Seders in
the Mishnah more than 1700 years ago.

=-=-=

Africanisms of 'West Asia': sweetening bitter waters

Maybe prince 'Mose picked Sudani H2O sweetening
technology up from his pre-Exodus extra-biblical
Kushi wife, who incidently was, the queen of Kush.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
^^^^^ Yes I would eat Okra fried and breaded..

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
[qb] This Horseradish Tree. Has it something like
common hr root? Something the African Jews
in the Americas can adopt for our P*sahh
Seder Plates maybe?

---

The Horseradish Tree is the Moringa... is that allowalble on the passover (seder) plate?

UNLEAVENED BREAD MORINGA FOR PASSOVER RECIPE ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdxPEzMAWD8


By the way.. Women in Sudan still use Moses Method of sweetening water..

---

 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Africanisms of 'West Asia'


Now this is a title of a proper book
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
.


The Jewish Kingdom of Himyar (Yemen): Its Rise and Fall.

https://tinyurl.com/r5e4wrxu


.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
. I've shown the actual images from inside of the tomb that prove the images I've shared are the authentic originals, and I've also proven that scholastic authorities also agree and use that same image.

---

You have not shown an image from a scholarly source which says the image is a photo
and if it is a photo credits it properly to a photographer

---

Yes I did... multiple times. Anyone can scroll back and see for themselves so I will just leave it at that.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
. I've shown the actual images from inside of the tomb that prove the images I've shared are the authentic originals, and I've also proven that scholastic authorities also agree and use that same image.

---

You have not shown an image from a scholarly source which says the image is a photo
and if it is a photo credits it properly to a photographer

---

Yes I did... multiple times. Anyone can scroll back and see for themselves so I will just leave it at that.

---

Again, you showed two images one was form a travel blog the other from a biblical Archaeologist article. The one from the biblical Archaeologist article did not say the image was a photograph or name who made the image. So we don't know if that image is a photograph or a reconstruction used to write an article about brick making.

Since you were last here I also posted this photo from a well known book on Egyptian art



https://archive.org/details/egyptianpainting0000mekh/page/48/mode/2up
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

Exactly... the image I posted was a scholastic source put together by archaeologists, professors, etc., and they clearly wrote in the article that the image came from the tomb of rekhmire. Then I posted photos from a professional photographers blog and the images he took were the exact same ones from the scholastic article.

On the otherhand, the same cannot be said for you.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

The image you just posted looks like the one I have been posting all along and looks nothing like the yellow hued one that you've been spamming this thread with... I rest my case.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:




https://archive.org/details/egyptianpainting0000mekh/page/48/mode/2up

---

Two photos, one with brighter lighting.
Both photos showing the same thing, the figure on bended knee is lighter and more orangish
and don't try to lie saying it's a reconstruction with no proof
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 
For the record. Orangish people don't exist.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 



source: Museum of Fine Arts Boston
https://collections.mfa.org/objects/142815
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 
What is the purpose of the image above?

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

tomb of Rekhmire
Register 5: The captives of vassal countries, Retenu, Nubia

---

On what is based that these are captives?

Anyway, allegedly.









 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
What is the purpose of the image above?

---

a few different image sources showing a somewhat orangish tone on the walls. verifying that a similar color was used elsewhere
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
What is the purpose of the image above?

---

a few different image sources showing a somewhat orangish tone on the walls. verifying that a similar color was used elsewhere

---

Oh, ok. When I was in Egypt I don't recall seeing orangish tones on skins.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
Oh, ok. When I was in Egypt I don't recall seeing orangish tones on skins.

---

Did you look at every artifact?

We are talking a tribute procession that includes Retenu, an ethnic group of Asiatics who I have never seen depicted in another tomb (but may)
The other item is the coffin of Djehutynakht a governor in the middle kingdom in Boston

https://collections.mfa.org/objects/142815

_______________________

wikipedia, Thutmose II

Upon Thutmose's coronation, Kush rebelled, as it had the habit of doing upon the transition of Egyptian kingship. The Nubian state had been completely subjugated by Thutmose I,[25] but some rebels from Khenthennofer rose up, and the Egyptian forces retreated into a fortress built by Thutmose I.[26] On account of his relative youth at the time, Thutmose II dispatched an army into Nubia rather than leading it himself, but he seems to have easily crushed this revolt with the aid of his father's military generals.[27] An account of the campaign is given by the historian Josephus who refers to it as the Ethiopic War.

Thutmose also seems to have fought against the Shasu Bedouin in the Sinai, in a campaign mentioned by Ahmose Pen-Nekhbet.[14] Although this campaign has been called a minor raid, there is a fragment recorded by Kurt Sethe that records a campaign in Upper Retenu, or Syria, which appears to have reached as far as a place called Niy where Thutmose I hunted elephants after returning from crossing the Euphrates.[28] This quite possibly indicates that the raid against the Shasu was only fought en route to Syria

___________________

Egyptian Text

Tribute of Retenu

447. The tribute of the chiefs of Retenu: the daughter of a chief,
(with) ornaments of - gold, lapis lazuli of t[his] country;* 30 [rslavesJ]
belonging [rto herJ1; 65g male and female slaves of his tribute; 103
horses; 5 chariots, wrought with gold, (with) rpoles] of gold; 5 chariots,
wrought with electrum, (with) rpoles] of g.t; total, 10; 45 bullocksh
(rand3 calves; 749 bulls; 5,703 small cattle; flat dishes of goldi 23which
could not be weighed; flat dishes of silver, and fragments, (making) 104
deben, 5 kidet;j a gold born] (mk-r XJy-n3), inlaid with lapis lazuli; a
bronze corselet (b3-n-m), inlaid with gold, rornamentedx k
many - of silver - in battle -k %23 (mn-) jars of incense;
1,718 (mn-) jars of honeyed wine;' r-1 g.tm and much two-colored

(Breasted)

_____________________

the term 'captive' may not be precise, conquered foreign chiefs forced to pay tribute, bringing various booty and slaves. I suppose if they came and went they would not be captives. I copied that word from somewhere but now I have changed it to "tribute procession "
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

Oh so now it's because the "lighting is different". Lighting doesn't change the appearancr images that significantly and I don't think it's a coincidence that the reconstructed images created by an artist (with the yellow/orange skin) looks exactly like the images you have been posting.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@Ish Geber

thank you, I agree.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@Ish Geber

thank you, I agree.

---

.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
the reconstructed images created by an artist (with the yellow/orange skin) looks exactly like the images you have been posting.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
For the record. Orangish people don't exist.

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

Oh so now it's because the "lighting is different". Lighting doesn't change the appearancr images that significantly and I don't think it's a coincidence that the reconstructed images created by an artist (with the yellow/orange skin) looks exactly like the images you have been posting.

---

How would you describe the skin tone here?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Gentleman found the afikomen he did!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
On what is based that these are captives?

Anyway, allegedly.

---

.

Agree with most everything except wondering if last
bird is a forked tail swallow or a sparrow maybe?
[ EDIT: Per Budge's dictionary p.cxxvi entry 53 issa kite ]
In any case we have "land Shasu YHWA [tetragrammaton?]".

For biblical archaeology this could well be the
Midianite land of Qeturah whose father Yithro
introduced Moish to the El[ohiym] of Yisra'el,
though iirc AEL has direct terms for Midian.


 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 
^@Tukuler, The 20 for 20 series are certainly helpful. I do think some of them have somewhat of a bias.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
Oh, ok. When I was in Egypt I don't recall seeing orangish tones on skins.

---

Did you look at every artifact?

We are talking a tribute procession that includes Retenu, an ethnic group of Asiatics who I have never seen depicted in another tomb (but may)
The other item is the coffin of Djehutynakht a governor in the middle kingdom in Boston

https://collections.mfa.org/objects/142815

---

No, that is nearly impossible. And some of the artifacts aren't even accessible to the public. But I did see a lot for the period I was there. I meanly have been in the Southern parts, because that's where most of the ancient culture has been preserved and still thrives in some way. What we see in the North in museums has been taken from the South so people who visit these museums still have something memorable. (as I have been told when I was there) And that makes sense, since we know that the South (Upper) Egypt was mostly populated.

As of now I am watching Garfield's 20 for 20 series, part 10 with Dr. Daniel E Fleming and just finished part 9. with Dr. Andrew Tobolowsky.
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
I am not going to discount any Ugaritic evidence since I don't know enough about it to be honest... However, You know this is how I know Garfield is an agent.. he is not actually studying African history/ or local West African ORAL history...he thinks of west africa as the DARK CONTINENT isolated from the larger world. this is EUROCENTRIC thinking and just a short foray into W. African cuisine tells you otherwise.. We have to reorient our thinking about the region. not think North South SUB SAHARAN Africa but think of the world the way West Africans experienced it the most.. EAST TO WEST - WEST TO EAST along the Sahelian Corridor.

---

Sure, I have no problem with much of what is said above, though I don’t think
everyone who makes such claims is necessarily some sort of conspiratorial
agent. Some are just i’gnant or uninformed. If you look at some writings of
NOI boss Elijah Muhammed he criticizes African culture as dark and backward
and too much into dancing and jiggin’ etc, and claims that it was the Muslims
that brought the blacks civilization. Today you would think a white or Arab racist was
writing. See page 145 of the recent book below on Black Power. Muhammed criticizes
American blacks for identifying with Africa as degrading, and that he was gonna
bring those Africans civilization.
--Black Power: Radical Politics and African American Identity
By Jeffrey O. G. Ogbar, 2019. p 145 GoogleBooks

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
Wesley has an AGENDA but he does his HOMEWORK and his papers are well sourced academically. While Wesley's language is strident, he is practicing apologetics after all, but instead of dismissing his arguments whole cloth I would prefer to entertain reasoned counter arguments that are as well sourced as Wesley's work..

---

Yes, reasoned counter-arguments are needed not just labeling people “agents.” If the
label “agents” is to be tossed around, then people could also well argue that Wesley
Muhammed himself is a Muslim “Agent” seeking to dilute indigenous African faith.
And Muslims could no doubt charge deniers with being pagan agents.

There are several reasoned counter-arguments to Wesley Muhammed’s claims.
See the critique below by an African scholar for example. Among other things
he says that while there are plenty of pro-Muslim attempt to link Yoruba to Arabia,
Wesley list of parallels between the Yoruba and Arabia are too shallow, generic
or superficial to have strong plausibility. And just because some Yoruba stories
speak of people coming from “the East” does not mean they came from Arabia.
The same stories of “the East” it is pointed out, are also used by proponents of
an Ancient Egypt source. Oral tradition can thus be contradictory in use with
various advocates cherry-picking a story that they think fits their particular
version, which may clash with another version using the same oral traditions.
Reflection on the theory of the Arab origin of the Yoruba people
--Jack Agai, 2021. Theologia Viatorum 45(1), a77.

In turn, modern scholars such as J.A. Atanda, a Nigerian historian from the University of
Ibadan, advances a current scholarly view, which dismisses the claim of Arabian origins in
the light of some linguistic and archaeological data suggesting indigenous African origins.
(Atanda , JA, ( 1980 ) An Introduction to Yoruba History Ibadan University Press .)
and Pioneer, Patriot and Patriarch: Samuel Johnson and the Yoruba People, Fayola 1994.

---

Pertaining Garfield. People can't avoid and complain about the 20 for 20 series. These people are the scholars that make up the consensus in this field.

Pertaining Dr. Wesley. He uses a lot of references that he implements in his own base work, so when he connects Africa to Arabia and vice versa it's mostly not just his opinion. It's important to read the references.
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

Oh so now it's because the "lighting is different". Lighting doesn't change the appearancr images that significantly and I don't think it's a coincidence that the reconstructed images created by an artist (with the yellow/orange skin) looks exactly like the images you have been posting.

---

How would you describe the skin tone here?

---

For comparison, here are real skin tones. Where would you put them?



I'd say this:


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:


I'd say this:

[/QB]

---

what color is that?
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:


I'd say this:

---

what color is that?

---

It's some sort of brown, I guess.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
Pertaining Garfield. People can't avoid and complain about the 20 for 20 series. These people are the scholars that make up the consensus in this field.

---

Yatunde Lisa, do you think Garfield has some unwholesome agenda behind the 20 for 20 series or is he basically just interviewing scholars to hear about whatever they have learned in their research?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Ish Gebor what do you think of the way Jabari calls modern day Europeans "Tamahu" ?
Do you think that fits?
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Ish Gebor what do you think of the way Jabari calls modern day Europeans "Tamahu" ?
Do you think that fits?

---

I have no idea what you are talking about here.

quote:

---

The Greek term aithiops (aitho- ‘burnt’ + ops- ‘face’) identifies African peoples as darker-skinned than their Greek counterparts. The place name, Aithiopia, can denote the upper Nile region just to the south of Egypt plus the Sahara and areas beyond. (Herodotus reserves the term Aithiopia for sub-Saharan Africa.) In the Iliad and Odyssey, Homer's Ethiopians inhabit the edges of the earth, where they are in close proximity to the sun, which has darkened their skin. In addition, they are notable for their privileged relationship with the gods. Related to the notion of the Ethiopians inhabiting the edges of the earth is the use of Africa in myth to indicate remoteness. Frequently, a visiting the Ethiopians is given as a reason for the absence of unavailability of a god or goddess. The Ethiopians themselves have the reputation of being unusually good providers of sacrifices to the gods. [9]

---

https://chs.harvard.edu/read/jones-prudence-j-africa-greek-and-roman-perspectives-from-homer-to-apuleius/#

quote:

---

Greek-Egyptian relations before Psammetichus I

Greeks arrived to settle in Egypt in the reign of Psammetichus I (664–610 B.C.). For the period that follows, Herodotus found that Egyptian and non-Egyptian information could be combined (II. 147). Thanks to Greek settlers mingling with the Egyptians, knowledge was now accurate (II. 154). Significantly, no Greek pottery datable to the period between Mycenaean times and 664 B.C. has so far been found in Egypt. Egyptian trinkets, on the other hand, were reaching the Greek world in the eighth century, and a bronze Egyptian jug at Lefkandi in Euboea would seem to date back as far as the ninth. These could have arrived by way of Phoenicia or Cyprus.

Some contact then, even if indirect, there must have been in the disturbed century before Psammetichus I. The Greeks retained some recollection of the Egyptian history of this time. We have seen how the king of Ethiopia and Egypt, who must have been Shabako (c. 716–c. 702 B.C.) in 711 surrendered Yamani of Ashdod, possibly a Greek (above, p. 16). This ‘Sabakōs’ is an historical figure for Herodotus (II. 137, 139) who in the fifth century could get a fair amount of information about the 25th (Nubian or Kushite) dynasty. Shabako's enemy was the delta king Bakenrenef son of Tefnakhte (c. 720–715 ?), whom he eventually captured and burnt alive. Bakenrenef, as Bocchoris, was to figure in Greek imagination, though Herodotus does not mention him. He is celebrated as a sagacious lawgiver in the Egyptian account of Diodorus (I. 45, 65, 79, 94) which derives from earlier Greek writing – probably in large measure from Hecataeus of Abdera, c. 300 B.C.

---

www.cambridge.org


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] Ish Gebor what do you think of the way Jabari calls modern day Europeans "Tamahu" ?
Do you think that fits?

---

I have no idea what you are talking about here.

---

You spoke about Jabari before. When he talks about white people in any context, like if he seen one walking down the street that day, he refers to them as "Tamahu".
Do you think that fits or sounds silly?
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Ish Gebor what do you think of the way Jabari calls modern day Europeans "Tamahu" ?
Do you think that fits?

---

I have no idea what you are talking about here.

---

You spoke about Jabari before. When he talks about white people in any context, like if he seen one walking down the street that day, he refers to them as "Tamahu".
Do you think that fits or sounds silly?

---

I have no idea in what context he is talking about that. I did hear him use the word, but not in historical context. So I don't know where he's coming from.

“Haplogroup L2a1 was found in two specimens from the Southern Levant Pre-Pottery Neolithic B site at Tell Halula, Syria, dating from the period between ca. 9600 and ca. 8000 BP or 7500-6000 BCE”
(Fernández, E. et al., MtDNA analysis of ancient samples from Castellón (Spain): Diachronic variation and genetic relationships, International Congress Series, vol. 1288 (April 2006), pp. 127-129.)

"Western Europe tends to be a mix of early farmers and western/eastern hunter-gatherers while Middle Eastern genomes are described as a mix of early farmers and Africans."
(Jones, E. R., G. Gonzalez-Fortes et al. 2015. Upper Palaeolithic genomes reveal deep roots of modern Eurasians.” Nature Communications 6 (1): 8912. doi:10.1038/ncomms9912)
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
Pertaining Garfield. People can't avoid and complain about the 20 for 20 series. These people are the scholars that make up the consensus in this field.

---

Yatunde Lisa, do you think Garfield has some unwholesome agenda behind the 20 for 20 series or is he basically just interviewing scholars to hear about whatever they have learned in their research?

---

Garfield stated agenda is to destroy the Hebrew Israelite movement. In addition, for the last three years he claimed he was writing a book to refute/debunk the beliefs of this belief/movement/religion he took pre order monies but has yet to publish the book. Garfield brought on the authors that he will use in his book when and if and when it is ever published.

On top of that I believe Garfield is a paid agent/instigator/informant for the FBI just like Tekashi 69 (rapper) and Enriqo Tarrio of the Proud boys.. what does that mean..

During COINTELPRO the goals of the FBI is to destroy any movement/belief/religion that might be create a Messiah like figure and used by the African American community to agitate for freedom/rights/ etc...


Hebrew Israelite would be considered under the term Black Identity Extremist. Saaneter had Garfield and Polite on his show yesterday? asking them if black people need a leader.. LORD.. two known scammers both probably government assets at this point.

Garfield's answer? who should be community leaders? Rappers.. LMAO... he is telling on himself

quote:

---

In addition, radical U.S. members of a group called the "Black Hebrew Israelites," who are proponents of "an extreme form of black supremacy," also pose a threat.

"Current intelligence from a variety of sources indicates that extreme factions of [Black Hebrew Israelites] groups are preparing for a race war to close the millennium," the FBI report says

---

User Clip: FBI Says Black Hebrew Israelites Are Under Investigation
USER-CREATED CLIP

FEBRUARY 5, 2020 CA Rep. Karen Bass asked FBI Director Wray direct questions about black folks being investigated, arrested and tried for no cause, and being labeled as BIE- Black Identity Extremists. The Director had no clear answers on the matter.


https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4852678/user-clip-fbi-black-hebrew-israelites-
investigation


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ watch
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
During COINTELPRO the goals of the FBI is to destroy any movement/belief/religion that might be create a Messiah like figure and used by the African American community to agitate for freedom/rights/ etc...

---

The BIE program was changed into Project Iron Fist.

quote:

---

Leaked FBI Documents Show FBI Developed “IRON FIST” To Counter “Black Identity Extremists”

Portions of the FBI’s Consolidated Strategy Guide were leaked to the Young Turks’ Ken Klippenstein. Labeled “threat guidance”, these documents from 2018-2020, show how Black dissent continues to be viewed as a top domestic terrorism threat by the FBI. Year after year, the Bureau continuously claimed that African-American anger at police racism could lead to “retaliatory lethal violence” against law enforcement. The logic at play is both clear and insidious. It delegemitizes movements for racial justice, by drawing a connection between opposition to racism and violence against law enforcement. Even more disturbingly, these documents reveal for the first time that the FBI had created a program called IRON FIST to “mitigate” this supposed “threat.”

---

https://rightsanddissent.org/news/leaked-fbi-documents-show-fbi-developed-iron-fist-to-counter-black-identity-extremists/


Iron Fist Outline

https://theintercept.com/document/2016/04/11/iron-fist-outline/
 

---

Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
 
Wow ish! Thanks for the info. I don't get how these government lead organization can't put their minds together to create policies to help Black folks or any other group to eliminate or reduce these social problems. It means these Euros don't care about domestic terrorism,they just want to keep Black people subordinated.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thereal:
Wow ish! Thanks for the info. I don't get how these government lead organization can't put their minds together to create policies to help Black folks or any other group to eliminate or reduce these social problems. It means these Euros don't care about domestic terrorism,they just want to keep Black people subordinated.

---

Keeping check on various antigovernment militant groups, white or black who the police and U.S. military is vastly superior to is much easier than solving fundamental social problems

What are your top 3 or 4 things you think the government could do to reduce these social problems?
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thereal:
Wow ish! Thanks for the info. I don't get how these government lead organization can't put their minds together to create policies to help Black folks or any other group to eliminate or reduce these social problems. It means these Euros don't care about domestic terrorism,they just want to keep Black people subordinated.

---

I agree with you 100%!!!!

They've let that white supremacy crap simmer…

quote:

---

”The FBI Has Quietly Investigated White Supremacist Infiltration of Law Enforcement

Bureau policies have been crafted to take into account the active presence of domestic extremists in U.S. police departments."

In a heavily redacted version of an October 2006 FBI internal intelligence assessment, the agency raised the alarm over white supremacist groups’ “historical” interest in “infiltrating law enforcement communities or recruiting law enforcement personnel.” The effort, the memo noted, “can lead to investigative breaches and can jeopardize the safety of law enforcement sources or personnel.” The memo also states that law enforcement had recently become aware of the term “ghost skins,” used among white supremacists to describe “those who avoid overt displays of their beliefs to blend into society and covertly advance white supremacist causes.” In at least one case, the FBI learned of a skinhead group encouraging ghost skins to seek employment with law enforcement agencies in order to warn crews of any investigations.

That report appeared after a series of scandals involving local police and sheriff’s departments. In Los Angeles, for example, a U.S. District Court judge found in 1991 that members of a local sheriff’s department had formed a neo-Nazi gang and habitually terrorized black and Latino residents. In Chicago, Jon Burge, a police detective and rumored KKK member, was fired, and eventually prosecuted in 2008, over charges relating to the torture of at least 120 black men during his decadeslong career. Burge notoriously referred to an electric shock device he used during interrogations as the “nigger box.” In Cleveland, officials found that a number of police officers had scrawled “racist or Nazi graffiti” throughout their department’s locker rooms. In Texas, two police officers were fired when it was discovered they were Klansmen. One of them said he had tried to boost the organization’s membership by giving an application to a fellow officer he thought shared his “white, Christian, heterosexual values.”

Although the FBI has not publicly addressed the issue of white supremacist infiltration of law enforcement since that 2006 report, in a 2015 speech, FBI Director James Comey made an unprecedented acknowledgment of the role historically played by law enforcement in communities of color: “All of us in law enforcement must be honest enough to acknowledge that much of our history is not pretty.” Comey and the agency have been less forthcoming about that history’s continuation into the present.

---

https://theintercept.com/2017/01/31/the-fbi-has-quietly-investigated-white-supremacist-infiltration-of-law-enforcement/

quote:

---

“FBI has 1,000 open investigations into violent white supremacy, domestic terrorism”

---

http://abcnews.go.com/US/fbi-1000-open-investigations-violent-white-supremacy-domestic/story?id=50127366

quote:

---

"FBI warns of far-right extremist infiltration of law enforcement in intelligence assessment

It became clear in the aftermath of the Jan. 6 Capitol insurrection—which included the participation of dozens of off-duty officers from around the country—that any effort to confront the right-wing extremism that fueled it would need to include police reforms that rooted such extremists out of the ranks of law enforcement. Now it appears that the FBI is turning its attention to the reality of such infiltration."

---

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/3/8/2020089/-White-supremacists-target-law-enforcement-for-infiltration-FBI-intelligence-report-warns


1-9-2021: Capitol Chaos: The End? Or The Beginning

The Black Authority

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mbhspit6gig
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

Oh so now it's because the "lighting is different". Lighting doesn't change the appearancr images that significantly and I don't think it's a coincidence that the reconstructed images created by an artist (with the yellow/orange skin) looks exactly like the images you have been posting.

---

How would you describe the skin tone here?

---

Back to the topic.

For comparison, here are real skin tones. Where would you put them?


 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Gentleman found the afikomen he did!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
On what is based that these are captives?

Anyway, allegedly.

---

.

Agree with most everything except wondering if last
bird is a forked tail swallow or a sparrow maybe?
[ EDIT: Per Budge's dictionary p.cxxvi entry 53 issa kite ]
In any case we have "land Shasu YHWA [tetragrammaton?]".

For biblical archaeology this could well be the
Midianite land of Qeturah whose father Yithro
introduced Moish to the El[ohiym] of Yisra'el,
though iirc AEL has direct terms for Midian.

---

Let's connect the dots.



Figurine of Semitic Slave in Egypt during the time of the Exodus from the Hecht Museum, Haifa, Israel.

עברית: צלמית של שבוי שמי, ידיו קשורות מאחור, ממצרים העתיקה. אסף מוזיאון הכט
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
Pertaining Garfield. People can't avoid and complain about the 20 for 20 series. These people are the scholars that make up the consensus in this field.

---

Yatunde Lisa, do you think Garfield has some unwholesome agenda behind the 20 for 20 series or is he basically just interviewing scholars to hear about whatever they have learned in their research?

---

Garfield stated agenda is to destroy the Hebrew Israelite movement. In addition, for the last three years he claimed he was writing a book to refute/debunk the beliefs of this belief/movement/religion he took pre order monies but has yet to publish the book. Garfield brought on the authors that he will use in his book when and if and when it is ever published.

---

Garfield says that he doesn't like the Hebrew Israelite movement because he thinks it's a denial of African identity.
Professor Smalls also said Israelites who may have dispersed into Africa would have been a small population in a vastly larger group of African cultures.
Saneter is the one who has the much bigger platform and likes to debate Hebrew Israelites and Christian preachers. However he is quote friendly with some of them. For instance he recently put up a video of High Priest Yashiya of the ISUPK and basically let him speak an hour and a half with out critique.
So isn't Saneter somewhat fair in that he doesn't believe in the bible yet he gives Hebrew Israelites a chance to speak their piece and reach a lot of people by his platform?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

During COINTELPRO the goals of the FBI is to destroy any movement/belief/religion that might be create a Messiah like figure and used by the African American community to agitate for freedom/rights/ etc...

---

I don't think the UPK is the group is ripe for a black messiah. Their top dog is General Yahanna but he doesn't claim to be the Messiah
A closer person, claiming Messiah (or thought to be by followers) would have been Yahweh ben Yahweh. He said he was the Messiah. And there was also Tazadaqyah, Ben Ammi
and also this other dude, "Natureboy" who has a small cult who is not a Hebrew Israelite but says he's the Messiah
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
I don't think the UPK is the group is ripe for a black messiah. Their top dog is General Yahanna but he doesn't claim to be the Messiah
A closer person, claiming Messiah (or thought to be by followers) would have been Yahweh ben Yahweh. He said he was the Messiah. And there was also Tazadaqyah, Ben Ammi
and also this other dude, "Natureboy" who is not a Hebrew Israelite but says he's the Messiah

---

If there is actually a real Messiah, I don't think that person is going to expose himself like that. The word says that "he comes like a thieve in the night" and lived (lives) his life "normal".

"5547 Xristós (from 5548 /xríō, "anoint with olive oil") – properly, “the Anointed One," the Christ (Hebrew, “Messiah")."
https://biblehub.com/greek/5547.htm


"The Hebrew word "Mashiach," meaning Messiah, means "the one anointed with oil." The custom of anointing with oil is a ritual act designed to elevate those designated for priestly, royal or sometimes even prophetic roles (such as the prophet Elisha)."
https://mfa.gov.il/MFA/IsraelExperience/Religion/Pages/Image_of_Messiah_in_Judaism_and_Christianity.aspx

"the Anointed," synonymous with and translating to Greek Hebrew mashiah (see messiah), a title given to Jesus of Nazareth; Old English crist (by 830, perhaps 675), from Latin Christus, from Greek khristos "the anointed," noun use of verbal adjective of khriein "to rub, anoint" (from PIE root *ghrei- "to rub”)."
https://www.etymonline.com/word/christ
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

Garfield says that he doesn't like the Hebrew Israelite movement because he thinks it's a denial of African identity.

---

Has he actually defined that? Is being a Muslim a denial of African identity?

Is being a Christian a denial of African identity?

What is an African identity actually mean to GarFOOL...????
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

quote:

---

Garfield says that he doesn't like the Hebrew Israelite movement because he thinks it's a denial of African identity.

---

Has he actually defined that? Is being a Muslim a denial of African identity?

Is being a Christian a denial of African identity?

What is an African identity actually mean to GarFOOL...????

---

It comes down to him seeing Hebrew culture as an insignificant "gutter culture" and religion. Secondly, he's against the "cult", not so much against the "conform". He also had an interview with Dr Gina Paige from African Ancestry.

SCHOLARS 20 FOR 20 #3 DR BRUCE HAYNES" JEWS OF AFRICAN DESCENT IN AMERICA"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b78Y9GIB2I&t=2s



SCHOLARS 20 FOR 20 #7 EHAV EHER " BLACK JEWS IN AFRICA AND AMERICA A SEPHARDIC TWIST"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFb9RTLEWxk






GARFIELD INTERVIEWS AFRICAN ANCESTRY OWNER: "YOUR DNA AND YOU" WITH DR GINA PAIGE AFRICAN ANCESTRY.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrM7_FTTKHU
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

It comes down to him seeing Hebrew culture as an insignificant "gutter culture" and religion. Secondly, he's against the "cult", not so much against the "conform".

---

A known liar, sheister,scammer and thief declares something "gutter culture" .... ? Really?


Why should anyone listen to him? Especially when he does not want to take on a mantel of leadership? He thinks rappers should do it? Rappers? Are they not gutter culture?


"religion & cults" are not the cause of ADOS/FBA Africans in diaspora problems.. have you seen Jamaica lately? Maybe he should go back to Jamaica and take his anchor baby with him and quit being a parasite on ADOS culture... No... economic oppression, bourgeoisie capitalism, and racism are the problems in the Diaspora but as a typical agent he won't touch on any of that on his platform..

Ever seen him talk about George Floyd, BLM, Filando Castile, or the myriad men being murdered on his show? NOPE...???


WHY???


I am done wasting my 5 minutes typing and thinking about GarFOOL .. I don't care what person he has on his show his agenda is loud and clear...
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

quote:

---

It comes down to him seeing Hebrew culture as an insignificant "gutter culture" and religion. Secondly, he's against the "cult", not so much against the "conform".

---

A known liar, sheister,scammer and thief declares something "gutter culture" .... ? Really?


Why should anyone listen to him? Especially when he does not want to take on a mantel of leadership? He thinks rappers should do it? Rappers? Are they not gutter culture?


"religion & cults" are not the cause of ADOS/FBA Africans in diaspora problems.. have you seen Jamaica lately? Maybe he should go back to Jamaica and take his anchor baby with him and quit being a parasite on ADOS culture... No... economic oppression, bourgeoisie capitalism, and racism are the problems in the Diaspora but as a typical agent he won't touch on any of that on his platform..

Ever seen him talk about George Floyd, BLM, Filando Castile, or the myriad men being murdered on his show? NOPE...???


WHY???


I am done wasting my 5 minutes typing and thinking about GarFOOL .. I don't care what person he has on his show his agenda is loud and clear...

---

Lisa, I follow the series so I understand where he and the consensus is coming from. I also have seen Shakka Ahmose, doing something similar on Sanater-TV and he went ballistic on the "Hebrew Israelites".

I think there is a fraction going on.

I am stuck at number 10 in the 20 20 series, I am still watching the Francis Stipe fight reviews.

After this I going to watch Saneter:

Jabari Osaze: Why Are You Mad Shakka Ahmose, Is It Jealousy Or Do You Want To Be Me?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPnlXm6KDrk

I partly watched The Black Authority. That's some horrible and demonic sh*t the did to ADOS people. My extended fam.

3-28-2021 The War on Generational Black Wealth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpfG9fBBmrM&t=272s
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
"fraction"

REAKING NEWS!! GARFIELD REID (dagger squad) STILL HABITUALLY LYING..lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkQTlxBiltY

Garfield of "Dagger Squad" Exposed! "I Don't give a F@$K about your Reparations!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CdaOAClx40
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Destruction of Black Civilization by Chancellor Williams

Now the-confusion about “Black Jews” derives from the same historic
developments which have been explained about white and black
Arabs, exactly the same. For we have shown that Jews were in Africa
from the earliest times and that Africans were in Palestine from the
earliest times. And just as the Jews ruled in African Egypt for several
centuries, so also the Africans ruled over Palestine for several centuries.
But, unlike the Arabs, the Jews never engaged in the general enslavement
of Blacks. In cases of warfare either side might capture segments of the
population to be marched off to work in the victorious nation, a notable
instance being the Jewish captivity in Egypt and their later emancipation
and return under the leadership of Moses. Not only did many coloured
Jews cross the Red Sea with Moses, but doubtless many converted jet-
black Jews, such as the wife of the Lawgiver himself. Furthermore, as in
the case of the Arabs, we often confuse race with religion. The people
we call “Jews” indiscriminately are Hebrews by race and Jews by
religion. Anyone can be a Jew, but not a Hebrew. The Hebrews and the
Arabs are both white Semitic peoples, and no number of offsprings by
non-Hebrews and non-Arabs, or adherents to either religion, will ever
change this absolute fact. After all those centuries of racial mixing,
there was nothing unusual about the appearance of great coloured
leaders in Palestine or anywhere else in Asia, including, from time to
time, their rise to kingship in Israel, Syria (Aram), Mesopotamia, etc.

But the white Jews (Hebrews) and white Arabs remain exactly what
they always were-white; and this is why (and who pretends not to
know it?) that there is a racial crisis today in Israel between the ruling
white Jews and the coloured Jews who have migrated there from the
above mentioned lands. These are the coloured adherents of Judaism
from Arab countries, but who never became Muslims. It will be going
overboard to drown if we follow fanatics in attempting to “blackize”
everything and everybody that suits their fancy. It is quite useless and
unnecessary to try to make either Jesus Christ or the Prophet Mohammad
“black” or even “coloured.” However, the most important point to be


We have already noted that this Black African world had been under
relentless pressures from the seacoasts by invading whites from the
earliest times—Hebrews, Phoenicians, Mongols, Arabs, Berbers, Greeks,
Romans, et al It was also pointed out that it is not without significance
that even today most of the invaders occupy the same areas where they
first came in—the seacoasts.

---

quote:

---

Stolen Legacy
by George G. M. James

The Exodus of the Israelites appears to have occurred in the 21st Egyptian Dynasty, i.e., 1100
B.C. in the reign of Bocchoris under the leadership of Moses, whose creation story of Genesis is
clearly of Egyptian origin. It is clear that the early Ionic Philosophers drew their teachings from
Egyptian sources. (Chaeremon: Jos. C. Apion I, 32; Philo; Ancient Mysteries C. H. Vail p. 61;
John Kendrick's Ancient Egypt vol. 2 p. 268-270; 303; See also Dr. Hasting's Bible Dictionary,
on authorship and date of Pentateuch).

The only nearby nation who specialized in the manufacture of chariots and the breeding of
horses was the Egyptians. When Joseph was Governor in Egypt, the horse and war chariot were
in use; and when the Israelites fled from the country, Pharaoh pursued them to the Red Sea in
chariots. Even Homer and Diodorus who visited Egypt, testify that they saw a great multitude of
war chariots and numerous stables along the banks of the Nile, from Memphis to Thebes.

the authorship of Genesis has been ascribed to Moses, who Philo tells us
was an Egyptian Priest, a Hierogrammat, and learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians. But the
age in which Moses lived must be associated with the Exodus of the Israelites which he
conducted in the 21st Egyptian Dynasty: 1100 B.C. in the reign of Bocchoris. But the creation
story of Genesis coincides with the creation story of the Memphite Theology of the Egyptians,
which takes us back to between 4 and 5 thousand B.C. This means that the doctrines of the early
Ionians arose neither at their time (the fifth century B.C.), nor at the time of Pentateuch (the
eighth century B.C.), nor yet at the time of Moses (the eleventh century B.C.), but at the time of
the Memphite Theology (between 4 and 5 thousand B.C.) and therefore definitely point to
Egyptian origin.

---

 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
^^^^ good posts...



 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
The boisterous group most associated with the term
Black Hebrew Israelite do indeed deny any African
identity whatsoever and unlike NOI see nothing of
worth in Africa or its peoples.


Thing is BHI as a monolith doesn't exist.

Over 55 yrs ago in Chi-town Ben Ammi schismed from Ethiopian Hebrews.
Bibbens, not to be confused with R' Bivens, is another schism from EH.

Some BHI are Christians with no attachments to Torah scroll
and prayerbook using West African diasporan Israelites
stretching back to 1759.

Today certain ordained rabbis well versed in Hokmath Yisrael
have jumped on the bandwagon adopting HI identity
else
defending it for Ethiopian Hebrew community use instead
of retaining the at least 102 year old coinage not realizing
internally a Hebrew is a slave status Jew.


Check this but speed it up to 1.25 so as not to fall asleep.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWKjUFCj6zY&t=909s

R' Lewi's initial argument is easily brushed aside.
Hebrew Israelite does not identify Jews of a country
nor Jews of an ethnicity. It has nothing to do with
the term not appearing in TN"K.

Also HI is a Chicago usage. It did not arise in Harlem.

A stable community doesn't change its identity any way the wind blows.


I do not agree with divide and conquer tactics like running
around disavowing any group of Black people in fear of white
peoples ideas or opinions. The goal is always to build up self
without tearing down others. The good rabbi stands on firmer
ground here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_R5jL2gY-h8
again adjust speed as necessary.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

quote:

---

Garfield says that he doesn't like the Hebrew Israelite movement because he thinks it's a denial of African identity.

---

Has he actually defined that? Is being a Muslim a denial of African identity?

Is being a Christian a denial of African identity?

What is an African identity actually mean to GarFOOL...????

---

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

Nazi propaganda alert
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tukuler:
[QB] The boisterous group most associated with the term
Black Hebrew Israelite do indeed deny any African
identity whatsoever and unlike NOI see nothing of
worth in Africa or its peoples. Thing is BHI as a monolith doesn't exist.

Today certain ordained rabbis well versed in
defending it for Ethiopian Hebrew community use instead of retaining the at least 102 year old coinage not realizing internally a Hebrew is a slave status Jew. A stable community doesn't change its identity any way the wind blows.


I do not agree with divide and conquer tactics like running around disavowing any group of Black people in fear of white peoples ideas or opinions. The goal is always to build up self without tearing down others.


This ^^^^^^^^^^^

How many African Americans are over in Jamaica telling Jamaicans how to solve their countries problems? I'll wait...

There are so many subjects to tackle that one could build a youtube channel on why build one on the tearing down of people? Why not bang on the KKK, The Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers instead? There are plenty white cults to bang on like the Mormans, White evangelicals? New age pagans?
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tukuler:
[QB] The boisterous group most associated with the term
Black Hebrew Israelite do indeed deny any African
identity whatsoever and unlike NOI see nothing of
worth in Africa or its peoples. Thing is BHI as a monolith doesn't exist.

Today certain ordained rabbis well versed in
defending it for Ethiopian Hebrew community use instead of retaining the at least 102 year old coinage not realizing internally a Hebrew is a slave status Jew. A stable community doesn't change its identity any way the wind blows.


I do not agree with divide and conquer tactics like running around disavowing any group of Black people in fear of white peoples ideas or opinions. The goal is always to build up self without tearing down others.


This ^^^^^^^^^^^

How many African Americans are over in Jamaica telling Jamaicans how to solve their countries problems? I'll wait...

There are so many subjects to tackle that one could build a youtube channel on why build one on the tearing down of people? Why not bang on the KKK, The Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers instead? There are plenty white cults to bang on like the Mormans, White evangelicals? New age pagans?

---

The "BHI" or Hebrew Israelites believe that Jamaicans (as well as Haiitians/West Indies) are Jews/Israelites as well according to prophecy and them also being descendants of the transatlantic slave trade.

According to the Bible, all nations of people who took part in the destruction of the Israelites are going to be judged by God, this includes the black africans who sold us into slavery to the europeans.

Ethiopians are not Israelites, they are Cushites. Do not get me wrong -- there are Israelites in Ethiopia, but Ethiopians by default are not Israelites or semitic.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Tazarah is a Persian name are you Persian?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Ethiopians by default are not Israelites or semitic. [/QB]

---

Amharic and Arabic people are Semites

_____________________________

etymology

Semitic

First used in the 1770s by members of the Göttingen School of History at the University of Göttingen, Germany

Semitic (adj.)
1797, denoting the language group that includes Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic, Assyrian, etc.; 1826 as "of or pertaining to Semites," from Medieval Latin Semiticus (source of Spanish semitico, French semitique, German semitisch), from Semita (see Semite). As a noun, as the name of a linguistic family, from 1813. In non-linguistic use, perhaps directly from German semitisch.

_________________
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:


According to the Bible, all nations of people who took part in the destruction of the Israelites are going to be judged by God, this includes the black africans who sold us into slavery to the europeans.

---

So the Israelites were destroyed in 16th century A.D. ?
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

quote:

---

There are so many subjects to tackle that one could build a youtube channel on why build one on the tearing down of people? Why not bang on the KKK, The Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers instead? There are plenty white cults to bang on like the Mormans, White evangelicals? New age pagans?

---

The only thing wrong with this advice is that few mature blacks in history
have ever followed or accepted it. Criticism of blacks by other blacks
is perfectly right and natural as long as there is legitimate cause for
criticism. One of the biggest critics of other blacks for example was
Malcolm X. When he urged "stand up, wake up, clean up" he was not
pussyfooting around, catering to "feelings" - he was bluntly saying
what needed to be said on certain counts, and still needs to be said
today. Few mature black persons have ever accepted the notion that
your claims should be exempt from scrutiny just cuz you black.

And who says Proud Boys, Oath Keepos, etc etc ain't being banged on?
Hell for over a decade people here on ES been taking on racists, (polite
and rabid,) as well as hypocritical liberals, Eurocentrics, "Curse of Ham"
Arabist, Talmudist, Evangelist spiels etc etc. Hammering racists or
racialists is old news around here.

Also important, there is no single "black point of view" before which everybody
should "take a knee" and keep silent. The black community is hugely diverse with
multiple points of view. Just because there is disagreement does not automatically
make for "agents". "traitors", "toms" and other such knee-jerk labels valid.

Does this mean "in-house" debates can't get heated or even out of hand?
Sure, but you see sharp disagreement one week, and detailed collaboration the next.
Several here for example Like Ish or Doug are sharply critical of BLM, and
I have disagreed with them, but that does not mean all don't share the
general goal of stopping police abuse.

Similar pattern also seen throughout the civil rights movement. Oft heated
"debates" are oft just different point of view, or different angles on the
same problem, customized to a particular time, place or issue. Civil
rights was not an "either-or" -take-it-leave-it proposition, Numerous
bitter debates still folded under a 4 prong umbrella that pushed the general
movement forward against a common enemy. All these varying angles
overlapped and meshed with each other at different times. places
and intensities. Hence:

a) Direct Action- marches, boycotts, protests
b) Political Action- political lobbying, voting
c) Legal Action- lawsuits and legal complaints
d) Mobilization Action- individual & community

There was criticism, disagreement and debate back and forth but it was
ultimately one umbrella. Facile labels thrown out by various parties
like "Uncle Tom" or "rabid militant" too often masked the main objective.

quote:

---

ow many African Americans are over in Jamaica telling Jamaicans how to solve their countries problems? I'll wait...

---

Actually there is quite a history of US blacks telling foreign blacks
how to solve their problem. A standard spiel of US blacks for example
that used to be popular is that they gonna go help civilize Africa.
ELijah Muhammed oft made this claim as already documented in previous
pages. It is an old pattern- there are entire books on it.



But at the same time US Blacks were going forth, non US blacks were
also coming into America to tell ADOS folk how to solve their problems.
One of the most famous is a Jamaican - He went by the middle name of Mosiah..


 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:


According to the Bible, all nations of people who took part in the destruction of the Israelites are going to be judged by God, this includes the black africans who sold us into slavery to the europeans.

---

So the Israelites were destroyed in 16th century A.D. ?

---

Yawn...
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:


According to the Bible, all nations of people who took part in the destruction of the Israelites are going to be judged by God, this includes the black africans who sold us into slavery to the europeans.

---

So the Israelites were destroyed in 16th century A.D. ?

---

These are complicated issues. For example modern Hebrew for some reason is a young language that arrived in the 18th century. It's barely to no at all related to biblical Hebrew, let alone ancient Hebrew as per the Lachish. Yet the people who speak modern Hebrew have a native language called Yiddish, which they spoke and speak longer than Hebrew itself.

A second thing is with the HBI who are not a monolith, but consistent out of several different groups with their own agenda and alternative histories, that do not correlate with what is known about history. These groups have nothing to do with the Black Israelites from Dimona, Israel. So that's another layer of confusion. But you also have groups that don't subscribe to neither of the aforementioned, but do consider themselves descendants of ancient Hebrews. These groups like the Black Israelites from Dimona, Israel do speak Hebrew, unlike the HBI groups who have their own language (of which they claim is ancient Hebrew). Some of these groups see everything in Africa as the enemy, while some do see commonalty and friendship and a common history and try to (re-)connect with people in Africa who are of the Hebrew fait, while some of these groups will used far right wing rhetoric to make claims and don't show methodology for their conclusions. And those that spew anti-African rhetoric have an anti-African xenophobia doctrine on steroids. And it's all very confusing with the table of nations, which can differ as well per group. For clearity, let's refer to these groups as schisms.


Why the FBI has them under investigation is beyond me. To my knowledge they are using the Bible, as do many other non-Black groups that claim to be the true Hebrews.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4852678/user-clip-fbi-black-hebrew-israelites-investigation

quote:

---

Three eras divide Hebrew’s history:

● Classical or Biblical Hebrew – Until the third century BCE

● Rabbinic or Mishnaic Hebrew – Written records date from around 200 AD

● Medieval Hebrew – From the sixth to the thirteenth century AD

● Modern Hebrew – The current language spoken in Israel and learnt by Jews around the world

The decline of Hebrew as a spoken language went on from the 9th until the 18th century. Although spoken Hebrew remained stagnant, changes occurred in the written version, as liturgical writers added to the vocabulary, with new words and fresh meanings to existing ones. Moreover, at least 2,000 to 3,000 new words, created from old roots, were added to the philosophical, philological and scientific collection of terms. [...] The later part of the 19th century was the start of Hebrew’s revival. It was fully established as a spoken language by 1948.

---

https://www.lingualift.com/blog/hebrew-language-history-facts-and-learning-tips-2/

quote:

---

The African Hebrew Israelite Nation of Jerusalem (also known as the Black Hebrew Israelites of Jerusalem, the Black Hebrew Israelites, or simply the Black Hebrews or Black Israelites) is a spiritual group now mainly based in Dimona, Israel, whose members believe they are descended from the Twelve Tribes of Israel. The community now numbers around 5,000.[1] Their immigrant ancestors were African Americans, many from Chicago, Illinois, who migrated to Israel in the late 1960s.

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Hebrew_Israelites_of_Jerusalem

quote:

---

Front side of a replica of Lachish Letter III, Phoenician script / Paleo-Hebrew script


YHWH on Lachish letters number 2




The Lachish Letters or Lachish Ostraca, sometimes called Hoshaiah Letters, are a series of letters written in carbon ink in Ancient Hebrew on clay ostraca. The letters were discovered at the excavations at Lachish (Tell ed-Duweir).

The ostraca were discovered by James Leslie Starkey in January–February, 1935 during the third campaign of the Wellcome excavations. They were published in 1938 by Harry Torczyner (name later changed to Naftali Herz Tur-Sinai) and have been much studied since then. Seventeen of them are currently located in the British Museum in London,[1] a smaller number (including Letter 6) are on permanent display at the Rockefeller Museum in East Jerusalem.[2] The primary inscriptions are known as KAI 192-199.

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lachish_letters
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Tazarah is a Persian name are you Persian?

---

[ syll. ta-za-rah, taz-ar-ah ] The baby girl name Tazarah is pronounced TaaZAERAH- †. Tazarah's origin is African. Tazarah is a variation of Tazara.

https://www.babynamespedia.com/meaning/Tazarah
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Deuteronomy 28

וֶֽהֱשִֽׁיבְךָ֨ יְהוָ֥ה ׀ מִצְרַיִם֮ בָּאֳנִיּוֹת֒ בַּדֶּ֙רֶךְ֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר אָמַ֣רְתִּֽי לְךָ֔ לֹא־תֹסִ֥יף ע֖וֹד לִרְאֹתָ֑הּ וְהִתְמַכַּרְתֶּ֨ם שָׁ֧ם לְאֹיְבֶ֛יךָ לַעֲבָדִ֥ים וְלִשְׁפָח֖וֹת וְאֵ֥ין קֹנֶֽה׃ (ס)

The LORD will send you back to Egypt in galleys, by a route which I told you you should not see again. There you shall offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but none will buy.

_________________________

Deuteronomy 28:68
(KJV)

And the Lord shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you.

__________________________

According to many BHI groups Egypt here means "bondage" and refers to America and the fact that ships were mentioned, Deuteronomy 28, the whole chapter can refer to nothing other than the Trans-Atlantic slave trade

God planned for this to happen and said it was going to happen to men inspired by him to write the bible over 2,500 years ago.
According to the plan the Israelites needed to be punished for not following Yaweh's laws.
So it was selective, all Israelites in the world were brought to the Americas and Caribbean to be punished for disobedience and they were and are
to this day

___________________________


Preterists believe Deuteronomy 28 predicted Rome's destruction of Israel

Preterism, a Christian eschatological view, interprets some (partial preterism) or all (full preterism) prophecies of the Bible as events which have already happened. This school of thought interprets the Book of Daniel as referring to events that happened from the 7th century BC until the first century AD, while seeing the prophecies of the Book of Revelation as events that happened in the first century AD. Preterism holds that Ancient Israel finds its continuation or fulfillment in the Christian church at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.
________________________________

However if we look at the first verse of Deuteronomy it reveals that what follows are the consequences IF Yaweh's laws are not followed >>

________________________________________
Deuteronomy 28:1
וְהָיָ֗ה אִם־שָׁמ֤וֹעַ תִּשְׁמַע֙ בְּקוֹל֙ יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ לִשְׁמֹ֤ר לַעֲשׂוֹת֙ אֶת־כָּל־מִצְוֺתָ֔יו אֲשֶׁ֛ר אָנֹכִ֥י מְצַוְּךָ֖ הַיּ֑וֹם וּנְתָ֨נְךָ֜ יְהוָ֤ה אֱלֹהֶ֙יךָ֙ עֶלְי֔וֹן עַ֖ל כָּל־גּוֹיֵ֥י הָאָֽרֶץ׃

Now, if you obey the LORD your God, to observe faithfully all His commandments which I enjoin upon you this day, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth.

___________________________________

Deuteronomy 28:1
(KJV)

And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the Lord thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
וֶֽהֱשִֽׁיבְךָ֨ יְהוָ֥ה ׀ מִצְרַיִם֮ בָּאֳנִיּוֹת֒ בַּדֶּ֙רֶךְ֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר אָמַ֣רְתִּֽי לְךָ֔ לֹא־תֹסִ֥יף ע֖וֹד לִרְאֹתָ֑הּ וְהִתְמַכַּרְתֶּ֨ם שָׁ֧ם לְאֹיְבֶ֛יךָ לַעֲבָדִ֥ים וְלִשְׁפָח֖וֹת וְאֵ֥ין קֹנֶֽה׃ (ס)

The LORD will send you back to Egypt in galleys, by a route which I told you you should not see again. There you shall offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but none will buy.

---

The issue is that often the translations have a different meaning from the original intend as an allegory.


For example the word Egypt.

quote:

---

Bondage
of Israel in Egypt ( Exodus 2:23 Exodus 2:25 ; 5 ), which is called the "house of bondage" ( 13:3 ; 20:2 ). This word is used also with reference to the captivity in Babylon ( Isaiah 14:3 ), and the oppression of the Persian king ( Ezra 9:8 Ezra 9:9 ).

---

https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/bondage/

quote:

---

Despite its diminished historical role, Egypt remained a potent theological symbol. Throughout the Bible, Egypt fulfills a dual role both as a place of refuge and a place of oppression, a place to "come up out of" and a place to flee to.

---

https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/egypt/

quote:

---

The Hebrew word for Egypt is Mitzrayim. The word comes from a Hebrew word that means “narrow straits” or “constriction.”

---

https://www.ifcj.org/learn/holy-land-moments/daily-devotionals/through-narrow-straits-2/

quote:

---

The name Egypt: Summary

Meaning:
Temple of Ptah

Etymology:
From the Egyptian Hwt-Ptah, via the Greek Αιγυπτος (Aiguptos).

According to the Oxford Companion to the Bible, the name Egypt is an English rendering of the Greek name Αιγυπτος (Aiguptos), which in turn is a transliteration of the Egyptian Hwt-Ptah, meaning Temple of Ptah. Ptah was Egypt's creator-god who had created the world via his thought and his word, and he also became patron of craftsmen.

---

https://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Egypt.html

quote:

---

In almost every case, a person or place name in the Bible which we know it by is a transliteration of the Hebrew. For instance the English Jerusalem is from the Hebrew Yerushalem, Israel from Yisrael, and Methuselah from Metushelach. This is not the case with Egypt. The Hebrew word for Egypt is מצרים (mitsrayim / meets-rah-yeem). The first occurrence of this name is in Genesis 10:6 - And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim (mitsrayim), and Phut, and Canaan. (KJV). Mizraim is the grandson of Noah and evidently settled in the land that came to be known as Mitsrayim to the Hebrews and Egypt to us today.

The root to this name is צר (tsar Strong's #6862) meaning "pressed in" and can be translated several different ways; "enemy" as one who presses in; "trouble" as a pressing in; "strait" as a canyon with the walls pressing. A common method of forming nouns is to add the letter "mem" to the front of a root. In this case the "mem" is placed before the root forming the noun מצר (metsar Strong's #4712). The prefixed "mem" can be understood as "what is...", hence metsar means "what is pressed in" and is usually translated as trouble or straits. The suffix of the name mitsrayim is the masculine plural suffix ים. The normal pronunciation for this suffix is eeym, usually a multiple plural, but can also be yeem and is the double plural as in the name mitsrayim.

The name mitsrayim can be interpreted many different ways; two straits (possibly referring to the two sides of the Nile river), double straits, two enemies, double pressing, or even double trouble. While we cannot determine for certain what this name original meant, we can see some interesting parallels between Egypt and their relationship with the nation of Israel.

---

https://ancient-hebrew.org/names/Egypt.htm
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
The whole thread rests on shaky premises and the attempts to link
"ships to Egypt" to West African slavery are equally shaky.
The Biblical narrative emphasizes that Jews will suffer negative
consequences if they fail to heed the word of Jehovah, hence
some would even be led back to Egypt in ships as slaves. The
word is to EGYPT, NOT to West Africa, or to the
Americas as slaves.

Second, Jews were taken as slaves in large numbers to Egypt when
the Ptolemaic Greeks took over. In Josephus's history, it is claimed
that, after the first Ptolemy took Judea, he led some 120,000
Jewish captives to Egypt from the areas of Judea, Jerusalem, Samaria,
and Mount Gerizim. To move this number of people around, ships
were required, and the Nile had to be used. So in a literal sense the
Biblical warning did come true. Ships brought, and also for
internal movement of those already in place, shuttled around
thousands of Jewish slaves on the waterways.

None of the above have anything to do with blacks in West Africa
or boarding slave ships for the Caribbean, America, or Brazil.
The alleged mass "Blacka-Jew" slave movement to America never happened.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova:
The whole thread rests on shaky premises and the attempts to link
"ships to Egypt" to West African slavery are equally shaky.
The Biblical narrative emphasizes that Jews will suffer negative
consequences if they fail to heed the word of Jehovah, hence
some would even be led back to Egypt in ships as slaves. The
word is to EGYPT, NOT to West Africa, or to the
Americas as slaves.

Second, Jews were taken as slaves in large numbers to Egypt when
the Ptolemaic Greeks took over. In Josephus's history, it is claimed
that, after the first Ptolemy took Judea, he led some 120,000
Jewish captives to Egypt from the areas of Judea, Jerusalem, Samaria,
and Mount Gerizim. To move this number of people around, ships
were required, and the Nile had to be used. So in a literal sense the
Biblical warning did come true. Ships brought, and also for
internal movement of those already in place, shuttled around
thousands of Jewish slaves on the waterways.

None of the above have anything to do with blacks in West Africa
or boarding slave ships for the Caribbean, America, or Brazil.
The alleged mass "Blacka-Jew" slave movement to America never happened.

---

1. Whenever you disagree with something you claim it's "shaky" -- you said Jews during medieval times were only called black as an insult or in a way to degrade them and weren't literally black yet I've shown you multiple sources stating otherwise, and even that literal black africans were mistaken as being Jews on a vast number of occasions which couldn't have been possible if the Jews weren't literal black people themselves who resembled black africans.

You even stopped replying completely and disappeared for a few days after being shown the quote from Parfitt which totally contradicted all of the claims you were making.

2. Egypt in that context simply means bondage and isn't speaking about literal Egypt. The book of Revelation makes reference to a spiritual Egypt in the last days, the Egypt in the Torah is speaking about the same place.

REVELATION 11:8

"8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

The book of Revelation also mentions a "Babylon" in which future prophetic events are to take place but we know it isn't speaking about ancient or literal Babylon because that Babylon was destroyed.

PS, why would the Torah specifically make reference to "West Africa" or "America" -- locations that were not even in existence yet? Very hard to believe you're not trolling at this point.

3. Deuteronomy 28:68 is speaking to ALL of Israel as a nation -- meaning that if you are going to claim this prophecy was fulfilled during the time which Josephus wrote about, or any other time, then you need to explain when BOTH kingdoms of Israel (southern kingdom and northern kingdom) went back to literal Egypt on ships. Deuteronomy 28:68 isn't speaking about only Jews from the kingdom of Judah going to Egypt, it's speaking about ALL of Israel as a nation.

DEUTERONOMY 1:1

"1 These be the words which Moses spake unto all Israel on this side Jordan in the wilderness, in the plain over against the Red sea, between Paran, and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Dizahab."

You would also need to prove that they were actually taken to literal Egypt on ships -- no assumptions, speculation or hypothesis -- but actual evidence. Anything less would be... SHAKY.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Tazarah, Ish Geber said Tazarah is an African name.

Is he right?
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
Originally posted by Tazarah:


Whenever you disagree with something you claim it's "shaky" -- you said Jews during medieval times were only called black as an insult or in a way to degrade them and weren't literally black yet I've shown you multiple sources stating otherwise, and even that literal black africans were mistaken as being Jews on a vast number of occasions which couldn't have been possible if the Jews weren't literal black people themselves who resembled black africans.

You even stopped replying completely and disappeared for a few days after being shown the quote from Parfitt which totally contradicted all of the claims you were making.

LMAO... Really?


I didn’t “stop” replying. You are the one that went silent on anything substantive
once your bullshi*%it was exposed. Everyone can see through your little trolling game.
Your “multiple sources” as already demonstrated in detail even debunk your claims,
and when called your response has been to try diversions by talking about things not at issue,
or by simply repeating your same debunked points under a different guise to cover your failure.
You ain’t fooling nobody. Let’s refresh your memory, My Hebro:

============================================= ==========================

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:


1) First of all, zaharan said Tudor Parfitt only wrote about the Jews being black metaphorically, yet I literally quoted from page 4 of Parfitt's book and it says the Jews were black both metaphorically as well as literally.


1) Laughable try at diversion, but you again fail. I
mentioned both the metaphorical aspects AND the
literal dark-skin, including the link to blacks,
not "only" metaphorically. Your lie is easily
seen on the page.

QUOTE- Zarahan:
Parfitt speaks of Jews as "blacks" METAPHORICALLY, and the discussion is of
some Europeans trying to bash Jews by comparing them to blacks. He then notes
that anti-Jewish critics asserted that Jews were dark-skinned, with others saying
only the Portuguese Jews were dark-skinned. The bottom line is to "diss" the
Jews, and one easy way to do that was to link them to blacks.


"A long European tradition maintained that the Jews, in general, were certainly 'black' metaphorically, in the sense that they were diabolical and evil, [b] as well as black literally."
"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 4 (2013) Harvard University Press
https://books.google.com/books?id=SBtqXClBWTIC

2) Yo! My Blek Hebro! your own "supporting" reference
undermines your claims.

_______


. zaharan said:
"He then notes that anti-Jewish critics asserted that Jews were dark-skinned, with others saying only the Portuguese Jews were dark-skinned. The bottom line is to "diss" the
Jews, and one easy way to do that was to link them to blacks."

^^^ first of all, the quote literally says the portuguese Jews were black, not "dark-skinned" as your lying buddy zaharan falsely claimed.

This is the reference:
"Tis a vulgar error that the Jews are all black; for this is only true of the Portuguese, who, marrying always among one another, beget children like themselves, and consequently the swarthiness of their complexion is entail'd upon their whole Race, even in the Northern regions. But the Jews who are originally of Germany, those, for example, I have seen at Prague, are not blacker than the rest of their countrymen."

"A New Voyage to Italy" by Maximilien Misson, page 139 (1714) R. Bonwicke
-------------------------------


3) You fail again My Hebro. I note not only that the Portuguese
ere dark-skinned but affirm that blackness was in play by
the European attempts to link the Jews to blacks.

https://books.google.com/books/about/A_New_Voyage_to_Italy.html?id=yC9OAAAAYAAJ


3) But ironically, your own reference AGAIN goes on the debunk your claims- QUOTE:

""Tis a vulgar error that the Jews are all black; for this is only true of the Portuguese, who, marrying always among one another, beget children like themselves, and consequently the swarthiness of their complexion is entail'd upon their whole Race, even in the Northern regions. But the Jews who are originally of Germany, those, for example, I have seen at Prague, are not blacker than the rest of their countrymen."


You keep insisting that all these Jews are black. But your own "supporting"
reference, Misson, says that all Jews are NOT black, and
that the Jews of Prague are not blacker than the rest of their countrymen.
And in any event, we all know Portuguese come in a variety of shades, so
they can't, and were never all black. There goes another one of your
"Black Hebe" claims.


Third, zaharan said the Jews were not really black but labeled as black as an insult or to bash them. If that were truly the case as our friend zaharan would like everyone to believe, and the Jews were only labeled as black to bash them, then why does the reference only say the Portuguese Jews were all black, while the rest of the Jews were not? Why weren't ALL of the Jews labeled as black? According to zaharan's eurocentric logic, ALL of them should have been labeled as black if what zaharan is saying were true.

4) Ha aha ahhah, My Hebro! You can't even spin a good tale. No I
didn't say Jews were "only labeled" as black. I affirmed
that they were dark-skinned. Dark skin means anything from dark brown
to jet black. You diversionary gambit keeps on failing. And in
fact I affirm blackness is in play by how the Europeans try to
linking said Jews to blacks. None of your diversions work.
In fact your own supporting reference destroys your attempt to argue that
all Jews are black, when it notes that only the Portuguese started
off black and Jews elsewhere were not blacker than their countrymen.
You keep on shooting yourself in the foot with your own reference.


Was there something special about the Portuguese Jews that zaharan knows about, that we don't?

5) Why don;t you tell us what you think is "special" about the Portuguese
Jews that made them black. And let's have something more recent than
your 1714 reference, by a man who never even went to Africa. We'll wait..


4. zaharan tried to deflect and create a strawman regarding the source I referenced which says the Israelites migrated into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem by mentioning places they went to before reaching West Africa, as if that changes the fact that they [b] ended up in West Africa.

6) Ha ahah ahah a hahahh aha ah.. What "diversion" when you yoself,claim that QUOTE:

"History has recorded the date and cause of the Israelitish immigration into West Africa after the destruction of Jerusalem..."

What ho! Black Hebro! Tell us when and how was this cool migration
from Jerusalem into West Africa? Cue "Rasasstaman Vibrations" soundtrack..


========================== =======

Let's recap the failure of your "Black Hebe of West Africa" theory.
So far you have put nothing credible on the table in support, and your
own "supporting" references keep undermining your arguments as to:

1) Judaism being the religion of West African blacks

2) The Israelites migrating direct to West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem


None of your proffered sources, and even the
one I first cited (Parfitt 2013) support these claims, whether it be:

--The 1714 source

--The 1854 source

--The 2013 source


But Tally Ho! Black Hebro! There's always next year in Jerusalem..

---

========================================= ========================
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@zaharan

Wow... the lies and dishonesty continue. Anybody can scroll back to page 2 and see that you stopped replying once I debunked your "they weren't really black" nonsense once and for all. You then came back days later on page 3 or 4 in response to someone else talking about something completely different.

My source doesn't debunk me, it debunks all of your false claims on several different pages and it says that literal black africans were mistaken as being Jews in a vast number of occasions. How could that happen if the Jews weren't really black, like you falsely claim?..... Lol, nonsense. Here it is for you again:

"In these fragmentary glimpses drawn from a variety of sources, we can see that Jews were considered to be black, to have a numer of African physical qualities, and ultimately to have a good deal of African blood. Similarly, black Africans in the nineteenth century and before, in a vast extraordinary number of cases were thought to be Jews, and indeed to have both Jewish characteristics and to be descended from ancient Israelite stock. From medieval times to the present, Jews have been thought to have 'black blood' in their veins and to have a number of African physical and other characteristics, including an African nose, African proportions, and African skin color."

"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 11 (2013) Harvard University Press

https://books.google.com/books?id=SBtqXClBWTIC


YAWN..........
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Is Tudor Parfitt an Israelite?
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Is Tudor Parfitt an Israelite?

---

No, Tudor Parfitt is a British historian, writer, broadcaster, traveller and adventurer. He specialises in the study of Jewish communities around the world, particularly in Africa, Asia and the Americas.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
https://images2.imgbox.com/42/ad/w4QgIG0b_o.png

zarahan, what's up with these Portuguese Jeews?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
"Born in Porth, Wales and raised in England, Parfitt is not Jewish, but grew up in a family that had "an intense admiration for the Jewish people." Fascinated by Israel, at 19 he spent a year with the Voluntary Service Overseas in Jerusalem, working with handicapped people, including survivors of the Holocaust."

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/florida-jewish-journal/fl-xpm-2014-02-18-fl-jjbs-parfitt-0220-20140218-story.html#:~:text

I see
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
https://images2.imgbox.com/42/ad/w4QgIG0b_o.png

zarahan, what's up with these Portuguese Jeews?

---

"The Duchess d'Abrantes, wife of Napoleon's ambassador to Portugal, said that 'the Jew, the Negro and the Portuguese could be seen in a single person.' So dark were the Jews, especially of Portugal and Southern Spain that many whites thought all Jews were black or dark."

"Nature Knows No Color-Line: Research into the Negro Ancestry in the White Race" by J.A. Rogers, page 123 (1952) Wesleyan University Press

https://books.google.com/books/about/Nature_Knows_No_Color_Line.html?id=0T0HBgAAQBAJ
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@zaharan

Wow... the lies and dishonesty continue. Anybody can scroll back to page 2 and see that you stopped replying once I debunked your "they weren't really black" nonsense once and for all. You then came back days later on page 3 or 4 in response to someone else talking about something completely different.

My source doesn't debunk me, it debunks all of your false claims on several different pages and it says that literal black africans were mistaken as being Jews in a vast number of occasions. How could that happen if the Jews weren't really black, like you falsely claim?..... Lol, nonsense. Here it is for you again:

"In these fragmentary glimpses drawn from a variety of sources, we can see that Jews were considered to be black, to have a numer of African physical qualities, and ultimately to have a good deal of African blood. Similarly, black Africans in the nineteenth century and before, in a vast extraordinary number of cases were thought to be Jews, and indeed to have both Jewish characteristics and to be descended from ancient Israelite stock. From medieval times to the present, Jews have been thought to have 'black blood' in their veins and to have a number of African physical and other characteristics, including an African nose, African proportions, and African skin color."

"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 11 (2013) Harvard University Press

https://books.google.com/books?id=SBtqXClBWTIC


YAWN..........

---

LOL, your "empty reply" strategy of repeating already debunked claims
without any substantative support still fails. And people can see that
when they do look at page 1, 2, 3 and the rest of the thread,
where you tried to divert attention for days when exposed by talking
up Egyptian pictures

I was the one that schooled you with a modern reference -Parafitt, when you had
nothing to offer but old references from the 1700s and 1800s. You then tried
to clip a piece to patch glaring holes in your spiel, but ironically
your usage actually undermined what you are trying to claim.
But then you go on to dig yourself into an even deeper hole, in which you
AGAIN, undercut your own argument with your "supporting" references.


Failing simple factual tests, you dig a deeper hole with supposed exegesis:

Originally posted by Tazarah :
2. Egypt in that context simply means bondage and isn't speaking about literal Egypt. The book of Revelation makes reference to a spiritual Egypt in the last days, the Egypt in the Torah is speaking about the same place.

But My Hebro, before you implied that the case was literal. Just as before, when
your BS is called out, you try to backtrack away. Let’s look at Deuteronomy:

T[he LORD will send you back to Egypt in galleys, by a route which I told you you should not see again. There you shall offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but none will buy.

You now claim its not literal Egypt being referred to, yet when you wanted
to use the Egyptian case, you had no problem seeing it as literal. Your
quick duck and dodge to Revelation cannot hide the glaring contradictions
in your arguments. Your shift to Revelation still fails to sustain
your case, for you claimed that the black Jewish West Africans
were a literal fact not a metaphorical comparison. You say


REVELATION 11:8
"8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." The book of Revelation also mentions a "Babylon" in which future prophetic events are to take place but we know it isn't speaking about ancient or literal Babylon because that Babylon was destroyed.

Nice try at diversion, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with your black Jews in West Africa,
nor their claimed migration from Jerusalem. Your second gambit fails.


PS, why would the Torah specifically make reference to "West Africa" or "America" -- locations that were not even in existence yet? Very hard to believe you're not trolling at this point.

My Hebro, if you are gonna troll try to make things more plausible. You
are getting confused in the web of your own nonsense. The Torah does not
make any reference to West Africa or America. If so, please show how it does,
and what the specific names in the Torah are for West Africa or America?
We’ll wait while you scramble for more diversionary BS..


3. Deuteronomy 28:68 is speaking to ALL of Israel as a nation -- meaning that if you are going to claim this prophecy was fulfilled during the time which Josephus wrote about, or any other time, then you need to explain when BOTH kingdoms of Israel (southern kingdom and northern kingdom) went back to literal Egypt on ships. Deuteronomy 28:68 isn't speaking about only Jews from the kingdom of Judah going to Egypt, it's speaking about ALL of Israel as a nation.

South or north makes no diff, for it is blindingly obvious that it is not necessary
for ALL the millions of Jews worldwide or regionally to go back to Egypt as slaves for
the prophecy to be true. Likewise it is not necessary for ALL Jews worldwide or throughout
the Middle East to go to Jerusalem, and wait to be slaughtered and kicked out by the Romans
to make that prophecy come true All Jews don’t have to be in one spot and present to make a
prophecy true. Your argument is illogical, and if followed to conclusion, actually debunks
your claims. If ALL Jews have to be in one spot for something to come true, then your
West African “migratem from Jerusalem” model fails miserably, for ALL Jews north or south,
were NOT shipped off as slaves to America. Using your "ALL Jews must be present" “logic”
you have, again, just debunked yourself, with your own argument.


You would also need to prove that they were actually taken to literal Egypt on ships -- no assumptions, speculation or hypothesis -- but actual evidence

Actually the burden of proof is on you, to show evidence that these “Black HEbes” first
of all migrated to West Africa from Jerusalem then were shipped off to America or Brazil,
which you further claim are mentioned in the Torah. To date, you have failed to do
any of this, but rather keep debunking yourself with your own sources.

As for the tens of thousands of Jews they are amply documented and many came from
outside Egypt, both via the Mediterranean, or the Red Sea., or moved internally on the Nile.
A quick Goglebooks search shows that the Greeks used slaves not only in Medit
port cities mentioned below, but used slaves up and down along the Nile. QUOTE:

"It was not, however, just in the Greek cities of Egypt- Naucratis,
Alexandria and Ptolemais in the south - that household slaves were located,
but also in the countryside, among the army and other settlers in the Delta
and up-river along the Nile, wherever there were Greeks."
--The Cambridge World History of Slavery, Volume 1_ The Ancient Mediterranean World(2010) p. 205

When Greeks brought in thousands of Jewish slaves, those slaves had to be transported
on the Nile and Mediterranean waterways to be put to service by the Greeks or whoever.
This is blindingly obvious. What is not obvious, because they are dubious, are your claims of:

1) this mass shipment of Jews from West Africa to the Americas,
2) locations that got the laves like America are mentioned in the Torah.
3) massive numbers of Jews "fleeing" or migrating from Jerusalem to West Africa when the Romans took over
4) that the religion of West Africa was Jewish when Europeans in the middle ages and mod era arrived
5) ALL Jews worldwide or regionally have to be in one spot for a prophecy to come true

All of these "Black HeeBro" claims you are pushing are fantasy, and you
keep getting debunked on them with your own "supporting" references.
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
https://images2.imgbox.com/42/ad/w4QgIG0b_o.png

zarahan, what's up with these Portuguese Jeews?

---

The pics show a mixed bag- Portugese, Jews, Africans, overall
a varying mix of light and dark colors. But mere skin color is
not at issue at all. Everybody knows the region has a variety
of skin colors. The dubious claims at issue are the alleged:

1) mass shipment of Jews from West Africa to the Americas,
2) locations that got the slaves like America being mentioned in the Torah.
3) massive numbers of Jews "fleeing" or migrating from Jerusalem to West Africa when the Romans took over
4) that the religion of West Africa was Jewish when Europeans in the middle ages and mod era arrived
5) that ALL Jews worldwide or regionally have to be in one spot for a prophecy to come true
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@zaharan

1. What do you get out of blatantly lying? I just quoted from page 11 of Parfitt's book where he states that there are a vast number of occurences where literal black africans were mistaken as being Jews, which completely debunks the lie that you keep telling about them "not really being black" when they were clearly described as such.

2. I never, ever said or implied that Egypt in Deuteronomy 28:68 was speaking about literal Egypt. I dare you to quote me saying that. You're seeing things, either that or you're just a blatant liar who has no shame.

Secondly, that's what we call a strawman argument, I never said or implied that Revelation 11:8 was speaking about west africa. I referenced that scripture to show and prove that a location does not have to be speaking about the literal place that it references. The fact that it says there is a "spiritual egypt" substantiates this point.

PS, I NEVER SAID THE TORAH MAKES REFERENCE TO WEST AFRICA OR AMERICA, can you read? Like seriously. Re-read what I wrote. You even copied/pasted what I wrote and STILL were not able to comprehend what you were responding to.

3. Do you even understand the concept of the 10 lost tribes? HOW in the world was Deuteronomy 28:68 fulfilled during the time of Josephus when Deuteronomy 28:68 is speaking about events that would happen to ALL of Israel (including the 10 lost tribes), not just the Jews of the southern kingdom? Keep declaring victory, it's so funny how delusional you look. You don't even realize that you aren't making any sense and you keep proving over and over that you don't even understand or comprehend the points that I'm making. It's like you're just typing to see yourself type.

4. The burden of proof is on YOU, troll. You are the one who suggested/claimed that "120,000 Jews were likely taken on ships to Egypt according to the writings of Josephus" [paraphrasing]. Now when asked to substantiate this assertion with actual evidence, you start playing games.

This is what happened -- you didn't think anyone would call you out on your claims and ask you to provide receipts. You thought everyone would just accept what you say as fact without any corroborating information. Unfortunately for you, that was not the case.

Then, in order to deflect, you start demanding that I provide evidence to support claims that I NEVER EVEN MADE.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
.


.

Deuteronomy 28
(KJV)

9 The LORD shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee,
IF thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, and walk in his ways.

1 And it shall come to pass, IF thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:

2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, IF thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.


13 And the LORD shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; IF that thou hearken unto the commandments of the LORD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:

15 But it shall come to pass, IF thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;
__________________________________
.


.

Over and over again, in each of these verses "IF"

That is not a prophesy. it's a choice
a contract, a convent

> if you choose to do the above then you will be blessed
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

According to the Torah/Tanakh, Israel did in fact sin against God (on multiple different occasions) and was cursed as a result.

DEUTERONOMY 18:45-46

"45 Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:
46 And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever."

---------------------------------------------

DANIEL 9:11

"11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him."

^^^^^ notice how the prophet Daniel says ALL of Israel was cursed.... not just the Jews (southern kingdom), but ALL of Israel, which includes the northern kingdom as well.

The Jews comrpise of only the southern kingdom, the northern kingdom were still Israelites but were not Jews.

Therefore, according to zaharan, ALL of Israel should have been sent to Egypt, not just the Jews (southern kingdom).

This proves that zaharan is completely wrong about the events written by Josephus being a fulfillment of Deuteronomy 28:68 as Josephus only wrote about JEWS being taken to Egypt and says nothing about any of the 10 northern kingdom tribes being taken to Egypt.
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
LMAO. You are now trying to backtrack away, denying what you once asserted
with such certainty. Hee-bro troll, what's taking you so long in actually
providing substantive evidence to back up your fantasy claims?

1) mass shipment of Jews from West Africa to the Americas,
2) locations that got the slaves like America being mentioned in the Torah (implied by your embrace of Black Hebrew teaching via Deut 28.
3) massive numbers of Jews "fleeing" or migrating from Jerusalem to West Africa when the Romans took over
4) that the religion of West Africa was Jewish when Europeans in the middle ages and mod era arrived
5) that ALL Jews worldwide or regionally have to be in one spot for a prophecy to come true (theological?)

You started out the thread with a crock of BS, old references that
didn't even go beyond the 1800s. When exposed you tried to duck and dodge
using the up to date reference I schooled you with. But not
understanding them, you failed, and only dug a deeper hole for yourself.
You now try to justify yourself with a mix of shifting claims and new
dodges, but again, you only succeed in digging an even deeper hole.

f Parfitt's book where he states that there are a vast number of occurences where literal black africans were mistaken as being Jews, which completely debunks the lie that you keep telling about them "not really being black" when they were clearly described as such.

And I already debunked how you tried to use Parafitt above. Skin color
was not at issue. What is an issue and wht you keep ducking and
dodging from is your Black HeeBro Israelite claims re Judiasm
being the religion of West Africans and this mass black migration
from Jerusalem.
QUOTE:

Parfitt speaks of Jews as "blacks" METAPHORICALLY, and the discussion is of some Europeans trying to bash Jews by comparing them to blacks. He then notes that anti-Jewish critics asserted that Jews were dark-skinned, with others saying only the Portuguese Jews were dark-skinned. The bottom line is to "diss" the Jews, and one easy way to do that was to link them to blacks.

So Parfitt in the section you quoted lends little support to you claims as to:

--Judaism being the religion of West African blacks

--The Israelites migrating direct to West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem
-------------------------------------- ---------------

None of your sources support your claims:

--The 1714 source

--The 1854 source

--The 2013 source (which I first brought to your attention)



Secondly, that's what we call a strawman argument, I never said or implied that Revelation 11:8 was speaking about west africa. I referenced that scripture to show and prove that a location does not have to be speaking about the literal place that it references. The fact that it says there is a "spiritual egypt" substantiates this point.

Speaking of strawmen, to that I said: QUOTE:

Nice try at diversion, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with your
black Jews in West Africa, nor their claimed migration from Jerusalem.
Your second gambit fails.

Whether metaphorically or literally it has little to do with your
claims about the black Jews of West Africa, including the “migration
from Jerusalem” claim.


PS, I NEVER SAID THE TORAH MAKES REFERENCE TO WEST AFRICA OR AMERICA, can you read? Like seriously. Re-read what I wrote. You even copied/pasted what I wrote and STILL were not able to comprehend what you were responding to.

You asked:
”why would the Torah specifically make reference to "West Africa" or "America" -- locations that were not even in existence yet? “

I questioned the exact same thing, for you seemed to be
supporting what other Black Hebros support, namely that
the Torah fortells the enslavement of the black Jews and
bringing them to America, based on Deut 28:
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/two-hebrew-israelite-biblical-verses-examined/

I should have quoted you where you say earlier:

You also said:
[b] The "BHI" or Hebrew Israelites believe that Jamaicans (as well as Haiitians/West Indies) are Jews/Israelites as well according to prophecy and them also being descendants of the transatlantic slave trade.”

This implies that you believe the Black Hebrew teaching that the Torah in Deut
28 fortells the massive enslavement of black Jews and their shipment to America. This is
what the group you sympathize with teaches, and you have not disavowed it.
How come now you are trying to back away from that core belief when
called out?


3. Do you even understand the concept of the 10 lost tribes? HOW in the world was Deuteronomy 28:68 fulfilled during the time of Josephus when Deuteronomy 28:68 is speaking about events that would happen to ALL of Israel (including the 10 lost tribes), not just the Jews of the southern kingdom?

I question whether you understand much about “tribes”, to judge
from the Black Heebro Israelite stuff you keep pushing here.
On top of that, you seem to think that ALL Jews everywhere must
be affected or in one spot for a prophecy to come true, which
is simply not so. ALL Hebrews everywhere did not live permanently
in the land of Canaan, there were 2 tribes that settled on the other side of the Jordan, but they went over in spirit and at times went over
literally to help with military action before returning per book of Joshua.

Despite ALL not permanently being there, the prophecy as to
Israel inhabiting the land of Canaan substantially came true. It is
obvious that not ALL Jews worldwide or regionally need be taken to
Egypt as slaves in ships for that prophecy, or a part thereof, to occur.


4. The burden of proof is on YOU, troll. You are the one who suggested/claimed that "120,000 Jews were likely taken on ships to Egypt according to the writings of Josephus" [paraphrasing]. Now when asked to substantiate this assertion with actual evidence, you start playing games.

Actually I gave a clear reference which you avoided as usual
because it debunked the Black hee-Bro line of Deut 28 being
”Jew slave ships” to America. It shows that yes, the Ptolemies did
transport 120,000 Jewish slaves per Josephus (and other sources
that don’t give Josephus’ number but confirm tens of thousands).
It shows slaves in Ptolemaic era were found in not only Mediterranean
port cities like Alexandria, but also inland ports like Nautcritis and
at points inland all along the Nile River. If tens of thousands
of Jewish slaves are incoming, it is glaringly obvious they had to
move to many locations by ship. This is a much more likely
scenario re Deut 28 than laughable Blek HeeBro claim of massive
numbers of Jews being shipped to the Americas as slaves.


This is what happened -- you didn't think anyone would call you out on your claims and ask you to provide receipts. You thought everyone would just accept what you say as fact without any corroborating information. Unfortunately for you, that was not the case.

No this is what happened. You thought you would come in here
slinging that Black “HeeBro” BULL, before which all would remain
silent. Your initial argument was so weak, you could not even
come up with credible references. You couldn’t even find a reference
beyond the 1800s. It was I that schooled you and pointed you
to a credible modern scholar- Parfitt 2013, which you thought
helped your BS case in a patchwork way, only to find out that it
didn’t- in fact it dug an even deeper hole for you. You then ducked
and dodged because you could not support your first 2 claims as
clearly shown on page 1, and as I note on page one. You claimed:

” --Judaism being the religion of West African blacks

--The Israelites migrating direct to West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem

As I pointed out on page 1, none of your sources supported these
claims in any credible way, nor did the Parfitt source I pointed
you towards to help you clarify your thinking.

None of them work in support of your arguments above, nor do
notions of

-- mass shipment of Jews from West Africa to the Americas,
--massive numbers of Jews "fleeing" or migrating from Jerusalem to West Africa when the Romans took over
-- that the religion of West Africa was Jewish when Europeans in the middle ages and mod era arrived
-- that ALL Jews worldwide or regionally having to be affected or to be in one spot for a prophecy to come true


You also say:
The "BHI" or Hebrew Israelites believe that Jamaicans (as well as Haiitians/West Indies) are Jews/Israelites as well according to prophecy and them also being descendants of the transatlantic slave trade.

According to the Bible, all nations of people who took part in the destruction of the Israelites are going to be judged by God, this includes the black africans who sold us into slavery to the europeans.

Ethiopians are not Israelites, they are Cushites. Do not get me wrong -- there are Israelites in Ethiopia, but Ethiopians by default are not Israelites or semitic.

It seems that you buy into the Black Hebrew Israelite teaching.
Well, if Ethiopians, among whom is clear Jewish representation via Beta Israel,
(“Falashas” etc), are not Israelites, and who are several times mentioned
in the Bible along with Israelites, and who speak a Semitic language: if
they are not Israelites, how can Jamaicans and Haitians claim to be Israelites?
You say it is according to “prophecy”. Which prophecy? Your Black Heebro
buddies always point to Deut 28, which you are now trying to disavow when
called on it.
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
Originally posted by Tazarah:

"11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him."

^^^^^ notice how the prophet Daniel says ALL of Israel was cursed.... not just the Jews (southern kingdom), but ALL of Israel, which includes the northern kingdom as well.

The Jews comrpise of only the southern kingdom, the northern kingdom were still Israelites but were not Jews.

Therefore, according to zaharan, ALL of Israel should have been sent to Egypt, not just the Jews (southern kingdom).

This proves that zaharan is completely wrong about the events written by Josephus being a fulfillment of Deuteronomy 28:68 as Josephus only wrote about JEWS being taken to Egypt and says nothing about any of the 10 northern kingdom tribes being taken to Egypt.


LOL laughable tripe. Yes ALL Israel was cursed but you just
debunked yourself because on 4 counts:

1) You said prophecy applied to ALL. But if this is so then it
did not apply to all Jews for most were in the Middle East when
your fantasy “Jew ship to America” event occurred.


2) Deut 28 does not distinguish between any Northern and southern
kingdom. It was long before there were any such “kingdom” splits.


3) You said it applied to ALL, now you are trying to shift
the posts again when called out by saying ‘not really’ – see
there was this “split”.. Right… Oh and some in the “split”
were negroes who were shipped off to the Americas, as foretold
in Deut 28… Uh huh..


4) Based on what authority do you say that- QUOTE:
“The Jews comrpise of only the southern kingdom, the northern
kingdom were still Israelites but were not Jews “

What utter BS. Really? So the northern part did not have any Jews?
Where do you get this from, your Black HeeBro teaching?
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
Originally posted by Tazarah:
Therefore, according to zaharan, ALL of Israel should have been sent to Egypt, not just the Jews (southern kingdom).

LOL. No. I questioned your notion of ALL Jews needing to be represented
or in one place re prophecy. Let me quote for the third time.
I said just the opposite- ALL Jews do not have to go to Egypt in ships
and I said so before your post above. You are again misrepresenting
what I said- QUOTE:

"South or north makes no diff, for it is blindingly obvious that it is not necessary
for ALL the millions of Jews worldwide or regionally to go back to Egypt as slaves for
the prophecy to be true. Likewise it is not necessary for ALL Jews worldwide or throughout
the Middle East to go to Jerusalem, and wait to be slaughtered and kicked out by the Romans
to make that prophecy come true All Jews don’t have to be in one spot and present to make a
prophecy true. Your argument is illogical, and if followed to conclusion, actually debunks
your claims. If ALL Jews have to be in one spot for something to come true, then your
West African “migratem from Jerusalem” model fails miserably, for ALL Jews north or south,
were NOT shipped off as slaves to America. Using your "ALL Jews must be present" “logic”
you have, again, just debunked yourself, with your own argument. [/QB][/QUOTE]
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
zarahan isn't it true when Africans arrived to America the European-Americans were impressed when they spoke excellent Hebrew and knew the bible inside and out?
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
According to the Black Hebrew teaching pushed by Tazarah something like
this may be what happened. Apparently it was foretold in Deut 28! Since
slave ships from West Africa sometimes sailed direct to New York,
this might explain why NYC has such heavy Jewish representation..
Just a thought, perhaps foretold in prophecy..
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
You said:

"And I already debunked how you tried to use Parafitt above. Skin color
was not at issue. What is an issue and wht you keep ducking and
dodging from is your Black HeeBro Israelite claims re Judiasm
being the religion of West Africans and this mass black migration
from Jerusalem.
QUOTE:

Parfitt speaks of Jews as "blacks" METAPHORICALLY, and the discussion is of some Europeans trying to bash Jews by comparing them to blacks. He then notes that anti-Jewish critics asserted that Jews were dark-skinned, with others saying only the Portuguese Jews were dark-skinned. The bottom line is to "diss" the Jews, and one easy way to do that was to link them to blacks."

^^^^^ on page 11 of his book (which I've already referenced TWICE), Parfitt LITERALLY says that black africans were always mistaken as being Jews -- how could this be possible if the Jews were not black people themselves who resembled black africans, troll? You mean to tell us black africans were being mistaken for caucasian people? LOL, you're done... just stop. You don't have to admit it but your "they weren't really black" nonsense has been thoroughly debunked.

You said:

Speaking of strawmen, to that I said: QUOTE:

Nice try at diversion, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with your
black Jews in West Africa, nor their claimed migration from Jerusalem.
Your second gambit fails.

Whether metaphorically or literally it has little to do with your
claims about the black Jews of West Africa, including the “migration
from Jerusalem” claim.

^^^^^ well that's great, because I NEVER claimed that Revelation 11:8 was speaking about West Africa you clown. YOU lied and claimed I said that when I never did, anyone can scroll up and see what I said for themselves.

You said:

"You asked:
”why would the Torah specifically make reference to "West Africa" or "America" -- locations that were not even in existence yet? “

I questioned the exact same thing, for you seemed to be
supporting what other Black Hebros support, namely that
the Torah fortells the enslavement of the black Jews and
bringing them to America, based on Deut 28:
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/two-hebrew-israelite-biblical-verses-examined/l"

^^^^^ I NEVER claimed the Torah was speaking about West Africa or America you troll, YOU claimed I said or implied that and then YOU demanded that I prove it was speaking about West Africa and America when I NEVER said that. YOU are seeing things. Now you realize you accused me of saying something I never said and you're trying to save face. LOL.

You said:

"I question whether you understand much about “tribes”, to judge
from the Black Heebro Israelite stuff you keep pushing here.
On top of that, you seem to think that ALL Jews everywhere must
be affected or in one spot for a prophecy to come true, which
is simply not so. ALL Hebrews everywhere did not live permanently
in the land of Canaan, there were 2 tribes that settled on the other side of the Jordan, but they went over in spirit and at times went over
literally to help with military action before returning per book of Joshua.

Despite ALL not permanently being there, the prophecy as to
Israel inhabiting the land of Canaan substantially came true. It is
obvious that not ALL Jews worldwide or regionally need be taken to
Egypt as slaves in ships for that prophecy, or a part thereof, to occur."

^^^^^ this has absolutely NOTHING to do with what I asked you, this is a red herring. "Jews" did not even exist when the Hebrews went into the land of canaan, they were Hebrews. The Jews/Israelites are descendants of JACOB. Somebody needs to go back and read their Bible. The prophecy in Deuteronomy 28:68 is speaking about the ENTIRE NATION of Israel being cursed, which includes the Jews (southern kingdom) as well as the northern kingdom whom were only known as Israelites. Josephus writes nothing about the 10 lost tribes being taken to Egypt, he only writes about JEWS (southern kingdom) going into Egypt, therefore that is NOT a fulfillment of Deuteronomy 28:68.

You said:

"Actually I gave a clear reference which you avoided as usual
because it debunked the Black hee-Bro line of Deut 28 being
”Jew slave ships” to America. It shows that yes, the Ptolemies did
transport 120,000 Jewish slaves per Josephus (and other sources
that don’t give Josephus’ number but confirm tens of thousands).
It shows slaves in Ptolemaic era were found in not only Mediterranean
port cities like Alexandria, but also inland ports like Nautcritis and
at points inland all along the Nile River. If tens of thousands
of Jewish slaves are incoming, it is glaringly obvious they had to
move to many locations by ship. This is a much more likely
scenario re Deut 28 than laughable Blek HeeBro claim of massive
numbers of Jews being shipped to the Americas as slaves"

^^^^^ Lies -- you've provided zero sources stating that "120,000 Jews were transported to Egypt on ships" -- anyonr can scroll up and see this for themselves as well.

I see how desperate you are to deflect and change the subject but I'm not going to let you.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova:
Originally posted by Tazarah:
Therefore, according to zaharan, ALL of Israel should have been sent to Egypt, not just the Jews (southern kingdom).

LOL. No. I questioned your notion of ALL Jews needing to be represented
or in one place re prophecy. Let me quote for the third time.
I said just the opposite- ALL Jews do not have to go to Egypt in ships
and I said so before your post above. You are again misrepresenting
what I said- QUOTE:

"South or north makes no diff, for it is blindingly obvious that it is not necessary
for ALL the millions of Jews worldwide or regionally to go back to Egypt as slaves for
the prophecy to be true. Likewise it is not necessary for ALL Jews worldwide or throughout
the Middle East to go to Jerusalem, and wait to be slaughtered and kicked out by the Romans
to make that prophecy come true All Jews don’t have to be in one spot and present to make a
prophecy true. Your argument is illogical, and if followed to conclusion, actually debunks
your claims. If ALL Jews have to be in one spot for something to come true, then your
West African “migratem from Jerusalem” model fails miserably, for ALL Jews north or south,
were NOT shipped off as slaves to America. Using your "ALL Jews must be present" “logic”
you have, again, just debunked yourself, with your own argument.

---

The prophecy says Israel AS A NATION would be affected by the curses, not just a handful of Jews.

And when did I say that only the "west africans" who were shipped to america are Jews? LOL, you're taking such an @ss whupping that you're purposely misrepresenting literally everything that I say.

You're typing all of these long-winded rants of lies and irrelevant gibberish to take attention away from the fact that in reality you have no idea what you are talking about.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Zaharan is still trying to convince people that the Jews weren't literally black even though Parfitt (the source he claims debunks me) LITERALLY SAYS THAT LITERAL BLACK AFRICANS WERE MISTAKEN AS BEING JEWS.

WERE BLACK AFRICANS BEING MISTAKEN FOR CAUCASIAN PEOPLE ZAHARAN? LOOOL!!!

"In these fragmentary glimpses drawn from a variety of sources, we can see that Jews were considered to be black, to have a numer of African physical qualities, and ultimately to have a good deal of African blood. Similarly, black Africans in the nineteenth century and before, in a vast extraordinary number of cases were thought to be Jews, and indeed to have both Jewish characteristics and to be descended from ancient Israelite stock. From medieval times to the present, Jews have been thought to have 'black blood' in their veins and to have a number of African physical and other characteristics, including an African nose, African proportions, and African skin color."

"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 11 (2013) Harvard University Press

https://books.google.com/books?id=SBtqXClBWTIC
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@zaharan

*********** Look, let's deal with one point at a time because I've noticed you love to type long-winded rants of lies and irrelevance in order to give yourself wiggle room and escape the fact that you are a blatant liar.

I've shown you SEVERAL sources that say the Jews were known to be black both metaphorically AND LITERALLY.

You falsely claim "they weren't really black".

If they weren't really black, then WHY does Parfitt (the author of the same source that you claim debunks the fact that the Jews were black) LITERALLY SAY THAT BLACK AFRICANS WERE MISTAKEN AS BEING JEWS, ALL OF THE TIME?

"In these fragmentary glimpses drawn from a variety of sources, we can see that Jews were considered to be black, to have a numer of African physical qualities, and ultimately to have a good deal of African blood. Similarly, black Africans in the nineteenth century and before, in a vast extraordinary number of cases were thought to be Jews, and indeed to have both Jewish characteristics and to be descended from ancient Israelite stock. From medieval times to the present, Jews have been thought to have 'black blood' in their veins and to have a number of African physical and other characteristics, including an African nose, African proportions, and African skin color."

"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 11 (2013) Harvard University Press

https://books.google.com/books?id=SBtqXClBWTIC
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@zaharan

^^^^^^ respond to the post right above this one and address what it says, anything else I will IGNORE because you have been spewing this complete BS about them "not really being black" throughout the entirety of this thread and it needs to be addressed once and for all before moving onto anything else.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
what if Parfitt is jazzing and pizazzing?
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

Arms of God depicted, at top center

וַיּוֹצִאֵ֤נוּ יְהוָה֙ מִמִּצְרַ֔יִם בְּיָ֤ד חֲזָקָה֙ וּבִזְרֹ֣עַ נְטוּיָ֔ה וּבְמֹרָ֖א גָּדֹ֑ל וּבְאֹת֖וֹת וּבְמֹפְתִֽים׃


The Dura-Europos synagogue was an ancient synagogue uncovered at Dura-Europos, Syria, in 1932.

---

Do not wear it like the Jews
Sunan Abi Dawud Book 2 Narration 245
Ibn ‘Umar reported the Messenger of Allah may Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him as saying, or reported ‘Umar as saying :
if one of you has two pieces of cloth, he should pray in them; if he has a single piece of cloth, he should use it as a wrapper, and should not hang it upon the shoulder like the Jews.
Graded as authentic by Sheikh Alalbani

حَدَّثَنَا سُلَيْمَانُ بْنُ حَرْبٍ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادُ بْنُ زَيْدٍ، عَنْ أَيُّوبَ، عَنْ نَافِعٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ عُمَرَ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَوْ قَالَ قَالَ عُمَرُ رضى الله عنه ‏ “‏ إِذَا كَانَ لأَحَدِكُمْ ثَوْبَانِ فَلْيُصَلِّ فِيهِمَا فَإِنْ لَمْ يَكُنْ إِلاَّ ثَوْبٌ وَاحِدٌ فَلْيَتَّزِرْ بِهِ وَلاَ يَشْتَمِلِ اشْتِمَالَ الْيَهُودِ ‏”‏
صحيح (الألبان




Now Israel loved Joseph more than all his children, because he was the son of his old age: and he made him a coat of many colours.



 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Zaharan is still trying to convince people that the Jews weren't literally black even though Parfitt (the source he claims debunks me) LITERALLY SAYS THAT LITERAL BLACK AFRICANS WERE MISTAKEN AS BEING JEWS.

WERE BLACK AFRICANS BEING MISTAKEN FOR CAUCASIAN PEOPLE ZAHARAN? LOOOL!!!

"In these fragmentary glimpses drawn from a variety of sources, we can see that Jews were considered to be black, to have a numer of African physical qualities, and ultimately to have a good deal of African blood. Similarly, black Africans in the nineteenth century and before, in a vast extraordinary number of cases were thought to be Jews, and indeed to have both Jewish characteristics and to be descended from ancient Israelite stock. From medieval times to the present, Jews have been thought to have 'black blood' in their veins and to have a number of African physical and other characteristics, including an African nose, African proportions, and African skin color."

"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 11 (2013) Harvard University Press

https://books.google.com/books?id=SBtqXClBWTIC

---

Not at all. As I've already said, everyone knows there are
varying skin colors. Jews are not only black-skinned. But the color
is not at issue. What is at issue is your crock of Black Heebro nonsense,
which I've already exposed in detail, and you have no substantive
response, save your "empty reply" tactic of repeating your already
debunked nonsense and asking for "answers" as if that suffices.
Let's school you again- as I did on page 1- QUOTE:

Parfitt speaks of Jews as "blacks" METAPHORICALLY, and the discussion is of
some Europeans trying to bash Jews by comparing them to blacks. He then notes
that anti-Jewish critics asserted that Jews were dark-skinned, with others saying
only the Portuguese Jews were dark-skinned. The bottom line is to "diss" the
Jews, and one easy way to do that was to link them to blacks.

So Parfitt in the section you quoted lends little support to you claims as to:

--Judaism being the religion of West African blacks

--The Israelites migrating direct to West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem

Neither of []sources support these claims, whether it be:

--The 1714 source

--The 1854 source

--The 2013 source [which I pointed you to]

None of them work in support of your arguments above.

Repeatedly demanding "answers" is a failing smokescreen. On top of that
you keep digging a deeper and deeper hole for yourself. Up above, you now
claim that there were no Jews in the Northern kingdom. What utter
nonsense, and typical of your Black Hebrew ilk, you are big on noisy
assertions, but short on logic and credible evidence.

Even worse, you again debunk your own arguments. You say valid
prophecy has to effect ALL Jews north and south. But then, on no
credible authority whatsoever, you say that there were no Jews in
the northern kingdom of Israel. If so, then your Daniel prophecy does
not apply to the north since there were no Jews around for it to apply to,
according to your own "logic." Where then my Heebro are these mysteriously
missing Jews?

==================================== =====================

^^^^^ Lies -- you've provided zero sources stating that "120,000 Jews were transported to Egypt on ships" -- anyonr can scroll up and see this for themselves as well.

I have already provided the Cambridge History which notes the use of
slaves near seas and rivers in Greek times. To move the amount of slaves
referenced by Josephus would require ships on sea and river. Cambridge
references Josephus as to the Jewish slaves:

"As far as the enslavement of Jews is concerned, Josephus states that Jews
were already enslaved by Hellenistic rulers."
--Cambridge World History of Slavery Vol 1 440

Below is a more direct translation of Josephus with a cite note of at
least 100,000 Jewish slaves in Ptolemy's Egypt. The 120,000 figure is
from Wiki's "History of Jews in Egypt" which references Josephus. I don't
insist on Wiki's figure, but whatever the true estimate- its still tens of
thousands of Jewish slaves at issue re Josephus. QUOTE:

Although this number 120 drachmæ [of Alexandria, or 60 Jewish shekels;] be here three times repeated, and that in all Josephus’s copies Greek and Latin, yet since all the copies of Aristeus whence Josephus took his relation, have this sum several times, and still as no more than 20 drachmæ, or 10 Jewish shekels; and since the sum of the talents, to be set down presently, which is little above 460, for somewhat more than 100000 slaves, and is nearly the same in Josephus and Aristeus, does better agree to 20 than to 120 drachmæ: and since the value of a slave of old was, at the utmost, but 30 shekels, or 60 drachmæ, see Exod. 21:32. while in the present circumstances of these Jewish slaves, and those so very numerous, Philadelphus would rather redeem them at a cheaper than at a dearer rate..."
--Josephus_ Antiquities of the Jews, Book XII.html
https://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/ant-12.html

Originally posted by Tazarah:

"11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him."

^^^^^ notice how the prophet Daniel says ALL of Israel was cursed.... not just the Jews (southern kingdom), but ALL of Israel, which includes the northern kingdom as well.

The Jews comrpise of only the southern kingdom, the northern kingdom were still Israelites but were not Jews.

Therefore, according to zaharan, ALL of Israel should have been sent to Egypt, not just the Jews (southern kingdom).

This proves that zaharan is completely wrong about the events written by Josephus being a fulfillment of Deuteronomy 28:68 as Josephus only wrote about JEWS being taken to Egypt and says nothing about any of the 10 northern kingdom tribes being taken to Egypt.


LOL laughable tripe. Yes ALL Israel was cursed but you just
debunked yourself because on 4 counts:

1) You said prophecy applied to ALL. But if this is so then it
did not apply to all Jews for most were in the Middle East when
your fantasy “Jew ship to America” event occurred.


2) Deut 28 does not distinguish between any Northern and southern
kingdom. It was long before there were any such “kingdom” splits.


3) You said it applied to ALL, now you are trying to shift
the posts again when called out by saying ‘not really’ – see
there was this “split”.. Right… Oh and some in the “split”
were negroes who were shipped off to the Americas, as foretold
in Deut 28… Uh huh..


4) Based on what authority do you say that- QUOTE:
“The Jews comrpise of only the southern kingdom, the northern
kingdom were still Israelites but were not Jews “

What utter BS. Really? So the northern part did not have any Jews?
Where do you get this from, your Black HeeBro teaching?

============================ ==============================


The Jews comrpise of only the southern kingdom, the northern kingdom were still Israelites but were not Jews.

^^What's taking you so long in backing your claim that there were no Jews
in the northern kingdom? Is this another BS "HeeBro" teaching of yours?
Your "Jews" seem to mysteriously appear and disappear at will.
First they are in Israel. Then they ain't no Jews, but in the southern
part. Then the mysteriously "migrate from Jerusalem" to West Africa.
Then they mysteriously are enslaved on ships bound for New York
and other points in the Americas. You can't even keep your
black Heebro arguments straight. Where next your mystical "split" kingdom"
"Jews" gonna show up? Mississippi?



^^"Missing" Jews of the northern kingdom.... which had no Jews per Tazarah
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
do you have to hurt him that much?
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
LOL,..




I probably already have spent too much time on this but having
run into these Black Heebro tyoes before, they often insist that only
what they say is correct. ANd I have probably used too much sarcasm.


Personally, I have no problem with black Jews in Jerusalem- given Jewish diversity.
And could some have moved out as ROme came in? Sure. But mass migration of
tens of thousands outta Jerusalem into Nigeria per Black Hebrew claims? Puhleeze.
I also have no problem with some black Jews being in West Africa as the
medieval ended/colonial period started. No problem. But these represent some
sort of mass population? Hardly. And could some black Jews have been shipped
over the Atlantic? Sure. Slave traders were known to kidnap and seize
any victim they could. But some 12 million black people hauled
over the Atlantic were Jews? It so laughable you wonder how intelligent
people buy into it. An if Israel was split into north and south kindgdoms
with no Jews at all in the north, where did the black Jews come from?
Down south? Could this explain why black people were shipped to the
southern US, they were of the "southern split" to begin with?
The BS just keeps multiplying, and rather than proponents scale back
their claims they just keep digging a deeper hole.. sigh..
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
HEBREW ISRAELITES ORIGINS OF GA-DANGMES OF GHANA IN BRIEF


Dr. Joseph Nii Abekar Mensah

Oral history had it that Ga-Dangmes people migrated from Israel about 6th Century B.C through Egypt, then to Ethiopia, having been expelled or exiled by the Assyrians (Hebrew Biblical Revelations, July 2008). In Ethiopia, they settled in the Gonder Province in northern Ethiopia, where the Blue Nile originates. That is where the name NAI WULOMO, meaning, HIGH PRIEST OFTHE NILE comes from. In 640 B.C, the Assyrians attacked the Ga-Dangmes again while they were in Ethiopia. From Ethiopia, they travelled through Southern Sudan and settled for a period of time at Sameh in Niger and then to Ileife in Nigeria. They migrated again in 1100 A.D and settled at Dahome and later, travelled to Huatsi in Togo where they stayed briefly.

From Huatsi, the Ga-Dangmes travelled to the eastern banks of River Volta (know as JOR). From there, they crossed the Volta River at a place between the Old Kpong and Akuse and established settlements on the plains of Tag-logo where they lived till 1200 A.D. Later, the Ga-Dangmes migrated to the plains of Lorlorvor between Lorlorvor and Osudoku Hills. The Shai occupied a settlement in Shai highlands.

The Ga-Dangmes claim to be descendants DAN and GAD, the fifth and seventh sons of Jacob. Biblical history suggests that Jacob, whom God named YISRAEL had Leah as his wife who gave birth to four sons for him. When Leah noticed that she had passed child-bearing age, she gave her maid servant, ZILPAH to wife. Through Zilpah, Jacob had Dan and Gad and four more sons. Jacob has two sons with Rachel. Gad’s fifth son was Eri who later formed a clan known as Erites (Genesis 30:9, Genesis 46:16, Numbers 26:15-19 and Deuteronomy 3:12; Genesis 30:4-8 3:12.The descendant of Eri, son of Gad are believed to have founded the Nri Kingdom around 900 A.D of the South Eastern and parts of the mid-western Igboland in Nigeria with other tribes of Levi, Zebulon, Ephraim and possibly more. In the Book of numbers, the Bible had made extensive references to the children of Israel, which includes Gad and Dan and their children (Numbers 1:1-54).

Biblical history strongly lends support to the claim by Ga-Dangmes that they are HEBREW ISRAELITES due to the fact Ga-Dangme names are found throughout the OLD TESTAMENT. Examples are: NIIKOILAI (Rev:2, 6, 15); AMASA (2 Samuel 17, 25; 1 Chronicle 33 20-21 DJAANI/JANNE, 2 Timothy 3: 8; AMON, 2 Chronicle 33: 20-21; ASHALE (ASAHEL), 1 Chronicle 2:16, 2 Samuel 2: 18-19.

King AYI KUSHI, spelled Cush in Hebrew, Genesis 10: 6 Jeremiah 13:23, Isaiah 18:12) led the Ga-Dangmes from Cush in Jerusalem

http://www.ghanadot.com/Review.mensah.gahebrew.032111.html








Read the notes.. the Ga are not the same tribe as the Ashanti they have phenotypical differences..

BRITAIN ACROSS THE SEAS: AFRICA; A HISTORY AND DESCRIPTION OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE IN AFRICA


https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/collections/britain-across-the-seas-africa-a-history-and-description-of-the-british-empire#/?tab=about
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
Fair enough, they have oral traditions asserting kinship with the
lost tribes of Israel like Dan or Gad, via migrations from Israel.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
West Africans are not a monolith, and the best we can do is be humble and listen to folk and oral histories without pre-conceived notions or pre-judgement or for gone conclusions. Yes we need to have a half ear for the BS but learn about the culture, language,arts, and music but look at people with FRESH eyes without Eurocentric bias and preconceived notions about what it means to be "African".


Bosman, who arrived more than 20years after the above portrayal
of the arrival of the Nicolaitans to the Ga-Mashie (Accra) area in
1660, which is one of the earliest written sources to discuss the
topic, writes the following.

quote:

---

The Children are not circumcised anywhere on the Gold Coast, but at
Accra. But whence the Custom of holding Women unclean, and Circumcising of Children, should be derived from, I own I cannot tell; to
carry it up as high as the Judaick Times seems to me too far: Though
several Europeans favour this Assertion, urging, that the Negroes still
retain several Laws and Customs which favour of Judaism, as that last
mentioned, the Honouring of the Moon at the time when the Jews
begin their Festival, the marrying of their Brothers Wife, and several
more, which seem the same in effect, as well as the Names, of which
here are several which occur in the Old Testament. But all this cannot
in the least incline me to their Opinion; I should be more easily persuaded that they had all these from the Mahometans, whose Religion
is a mere Rhapsody of Christianity, Judaism and heathenism; ….

---

quote:

---

Ayi Kushie, left Israel for Ethiopia/Sudan. From there,
one of his descendants, Nikolai, moved to West Africa in 1424. Nii
Nikolai Ashaley I led the Ga to the coastal area, where they settled
at Ga Mashie in 1660. The Nicolaitans are said to have formed the
core group of the Akras in 1660.

---

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@zaharan

The fact of the matter is page 11 from Parfitt's book says black africans were mistaken as being Jews all of the time -- even during medieval times -- meaning the Jews themselves must have been black LITERALLY, and not just as a "metaphorical diss".

You're in denial but the quote from page 11 totally destroys your bogus "they weren't really black literally" argument and you appear to be having a very hard time accepting that.

You just keep repeating the same failed logic over and over again as if you don't understand what the source is saying. It's LITERALLY telling you that they were black -- so much so that they resembled literal black african people.

Then you keep saying the statement about only the Portuguese Jews being black proves your point about "black" only being used to "diss" the Jews -- well if that were the case then why weren't ALL of the Jews called black, if black was only being used as a "diss" to the Jews?

LOL.... you make absolutely no sense, and you are the king of deflection.

Stay on topic -- as I already asked you to do. We're dealing with one issue at a time here to prevent you from deflecting with your long-winded rants of deception.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
zarahan isn't it true when Africans arrived to America the European-Americans were impressed when they spoke excellent Hebrew and knew the bible inside and out?

---

According to Cambridge University:

"Doctor Allen H. Godbey reached the following conclusion: 'These factors have a very specific significance if we consider the presence of Judaism among the American Negroes. Hundreds of thousands of slaves were transported to America from West Africa during the slave trade which started some 400 years ago. What traces of Judaism still remained among the Negroes of West Africa at that period? To the extent that they were persecuted they were more likely than other Negroes to be seized during wars and sold as slaves.'"

"Blacks Jews: the religious challenge or politics versus religion" by Ulysses Santamaria, page 235 (1987) European Journal of Sociology, Cambridge University Press

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23997577?read-now=1&seq=19&fbclid=IwAR3Dvyy06-72I0U_u5e9xt8p2HI4KxNb2S-_j7ciYuvspOS2H4P-P5cUkC8#metadata_info_tab_contents
_______________________________

DEUTERONOMY 28:48

"48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee."
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova:
LOL,..




I probably already have spent too much time on this but having
run into these Black Heebro tyoes before, they often insist that only
what they say is correct. ANd I have probably used too much sarcasm.


Personally, I have no problem with black Jews in Jerusalem- given Jewish diversity.
And could some have moved out as ROme came in? Sure. But mass migration of
tens of thousands outta Jerusalem into Nigeria per Black Hebrew claims? Puhleeze.
I also have no problem with some black Jews being in West Africa as the
medieval ended/colonial period started. No problem. But these represent some
sort of mass population? Hardly. And could some black Jews have been shipped
over the Atlantic? Sure. Slave traders were known to kidnap and seize
any victim they could. But some 12 million black people hauled
over the Atlantic were Jews? It so laughable you wonder how intelligent
people buy into it. An if Israel was split into north and south kindgdoms
with no Jews at all in the north, where did the black Jews come from?
Down south? Could this explain why black people were shipped to the
southern US, they were of the "southern split" to begin with?
The BS just keeps multiplying, and rather than proponents scale back
their claims they just keep digging a deeper hole.. sigh..

---

Ah, so the woman who has a habit of posting unauthentic and reconstructed images while trying to pass them off as legitimate antiques is creating strawman arguments and purposely misrepresenting the stance of other people...

Your friend zaharan is getting his @ss handed to him and being exposed as a blatant liar who tries to pretend that scholastic sources don't really mean what they say.

Why am I not surpised that you are rooting for a dishonest individual who is trying to convince people in this thread that black africans were mistaken as being caucasian jew-ish people?
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 
What people still don't get is that the translated narrative is not the actual intend and meaning of the original scripture. The 20 for 20 series scholars explain this very clearly. It simply is not. The words at times have a completely different meaning from how it was translated by the Brits. And this is how we end up with confusion and even more misinterpretations. The Brits had no knowledge and understanding of Afroasiatic cultures. Even the translations from Greek and Latin are loaded with mistakes and misinterpretations, because Greek and Roman-Latin culture is attached to a whole different history. These Brits didn't know this. And let's say they knew, then it means they purposefully lied.

I was aware of this since the '90s and early 2000s, but became even more aware of this after seeing Dr. Wesley Muhammad debating some pastor in the mid 2005s. The original languages are defining.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@Ish Geber

You do know the whole reason Garfield interviewed those scholars for his "20 for 20" thing on youtube was to try proving that Jews were never black, and that the original Jews were caucasian -- right?
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@Ish Geber

You do know the whole reason Garfield interviewed those scholars for his "20 for 20" thing on youtube was to try proving that Jews were never black, and that the original Jews were caucasian -- right?

---

You are partially right. However, that was never said by any of the scholars I have seen thus far (number 12).What they have shown is how to do proper methodology in academic research. And they make up the censuses, that's the issue. I am going to watch number 13 now. You have to know and understand what they say if you want to counter it.

The problem that a lot of Black people live in this delusion of pseudo scholarship and reject to look at theology from an academically scholastic point of view. Garfield himself is not even knowledgeable enough. He realized that he lacks understanding of the original languages. I told him this during several lives.

Even when QueButter was on Saneter TV he criticized these older men who talked in circles about the Bible, without actually knowing the original languages. He asked the panel members. "How do you measure the weight of a flying object, "how to you measure the resistance of transistors". And none of them knew or replied. After 5 minutes they were back on track with the same babbles. It was sad to witness. And I posted about the populations in the region at that time, after that he admitted that the people weren't white (caucasians). It is widely known that these old Hebrews (Semites) weren't white.

I acknowledge a lot of what Mighty Hebrew says, but some of the stuff makes you go hmmm as well?

Check out Vera Courtenay, The Age Of I Know, at blogtalkradio.com.

As I said, Dr. Wesley Muhammad said a lot of what these white scholars said. He even loosely translated these languages during debates (he speaks Hebrew, Arabic, Latin and Greek (and German). Mighty Hebrew and Devine Prospect also speak Hebrew. And often they are at odds with people who don't speak Hebrew and don't understand the original intend of words.

You have two options. Challenge the "establishment" the way the Black pioneering scholars did during the 70s, 80s and 90s, or stick your head in the sand and act as you it doesn't exist, while remaining in the "Black bubble".

And if you think Garfield was cruel. You haven't heard Shakka Ahmose.

"Shakka Ahmose: Where Did Allah Come From/ Walk With Me And Learn Something."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtsG6gVFCCY
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@Ish Geber

You do know the whole reason Garfield interviewed those scholars for his "20 for 20" thing on youtube was to try proving that Jews were never black, and that the original Jews were caucasian -- right?

---

I don't think that is his goal. I think his goal is to show that the bible is not the word of God and should not be used as a definitive authority
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

That's great. Next time you want to criticize or complain about ADOS claiming their Israelite heritage, make sure you remember this source from Cambridge University.

It says that Negroes who were Jews in West Africa were specifically targeted for the transatlantic slave trade. Our ancestors were in fact Jews and knew who they were prior to the transatlantic slave trade.

"Doctor Allen H. Godbey reached the following conclusion: 'These factors have a very specific significance if we consider the presence of Judaism among the American Negroes. Hundreds of thousands of slaves were transported to America from West Africa during the slave trade which started some 400 years ago. What traces of Judaism still remained among the Negroes of West Africa at that period? To the extent that they were persecuted they were more likely than other Negroes to be seized during wars and sold as slaves.'"

"Blacks Jews: the religious challenge or politics versus religion" by Ulysses Santamaria, page 235 (1987) European Journal of Sociology, Cambridge University Press

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23997577?read-now=1&seq=19&fbclid=IwAR3Dvyy06-72I0U_u5e9xt8p2HI4KxNb2S-_j7ciYuvspOS2H4P-P5cUkC8#metadata_info_tab_contents
_______________________________

DEUTERONOMY 28:48

"48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee."
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
The issue is that often the translations have a different meaning from the original intend as an allegory.

---

A Jewish or Christian interpretation is that there are some allegories in the bible.

example,

Matthew 5:14-16
KJV

14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
_______________________________

The light of a candle is symbolic here, not supposed to be a commentary on the physics of a candle flame. It saying if you feel the spirit of God don't keep it hidden, let it be known to people

However an atheist might say there is much more allegory, apart from some possible bits and pieces of actual historical events, that most of the bible is mythology, didn't really happen. It is almost all allegory, symbolic stories and that God is an allegory.

However Jews, Christians and Muslims would say no, God is real, not an allegory and their holy books are are not mainly allegory and myth. There is some like the papabiles but most is not
_________________________________________

an opinion:

The Torah Is Not an Allegory

https://www.thetorah.com/article/the-torah-is-not-an-allegory
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
@ish geber

quote:

---

The problem that a lot of Black people live in this delusion of pseudo scholarship and reject to look at theology from an academically scholastic point of view. Garfield himself is not even knowledgeable enough. He realized that he lacks understanding of the original languages. I told him this during several lives.

---

^^^ why is this a "problem" who appointed anyone to "fix" black people..?????


To each his own, if some want to live in delusion that is their prerogative...

for instance.. look at the Mormon Church/Socialist Organization... they live of a TOTAL fairy tale by some dude who was high running around the forest of New York in the mid 18th century talking to an angelic being called Moroni.. now we know Joseph Smith to be a total shister/liar/manipulative serial abuser of young girls and women..

But yet look... the majority of Mormons are functional human beings with fairly normal lives and beyond that Mormons are one of the fastest growing religions in the world with tons of money and their own banking system in Utah ..

So who is to say we should disabuse them of their beliefs?

We don't really BELIEVE Ezekiel flew in a chariot with 4 beasts and eyes and wings all around do we? Or that Enoch was taken up with the lord? Are these things allegory and metaphor... Myth does not have to be real to be TRUE!

I don't see GarFOOL trying to put White Jews straight about their mythical magical beliefs....

Just African American Christians need healing, just African Moors, NOI or Muslims need to freed from their faulty beliefs... or the Hebrew Israelites..

If you talk to agent GarFOOL tell him to let it go write his book then people can deconstruct and analyze his writings and opinions and come to their own conclusions...


Everything else is GASLIGHTING


Happy REAL New Year Ya'll, April Fool's Day.....



 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
@ish geber

quote:

---

The problem that a lot of Black people live in this delusion of pseudo scholarship and reject to look at theology from an academically scholastic point of view. Garfield himself is not even knowledgeable enough. He realized that he lacks understanding of the original languages. I told him this during several lives.

---

^^^ why is this a "problem" who appointed anyone to "fix" black people..?????


To each his own, if some want to live in delusion that is their prerogative...

for instance.. look at the Mormon Church/Socialist Organization... they live of a TOTAL fairy tale by some dude who was high running around the forest of New York in the mid 18th century talking to an angelic being called Moroni.. now we know Joseph Smith to be a total shister/liar/manipulative serial abuser of young girls and women..

But yet look... the majority of Mormons are functional human beings with fairly normal lives and beyond that Mormons are one of the fastest growing religions in the world with tons of money and their own banking system in Utah ..

So who is to say we should disabuse them of their beliefs?

We don't really BELIEVE Ezekiel flew in a chariot with 4 beasts and eyes and wings all around do we? Or that Enoch was taken up with the lord? Are these things allegory and metaphor... Myth does not have to be real to be TRUE!

I don't see GarFOOL trying to put White Jews straight about their mythical magical beliefs....

Just African American Christians need healing, just African Moors, NOI or Muslims need to freed from their faulty beliefs... or the Hebrew Israelites..

If you talk to agent GarFOOL tell him to let it go write his book then people can deconstruct and analyze his writings and opinions and come to their own conclusions...


Everything else is GASLIGHTING


Happy REAL New Year Ya'll, April Fool's Day.....

---

Preach.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
^^^^ think about it...


Agent GarFOOL has no criticism of the Rastafarian movement???

Why not? Because they are Jamaican? Talk about a made up mythology.. but see... I love the Rastafarians.. they have created a philosophy and a genre of music nothing wrong with that.

People need to leave ADOS/FBA alone and quit clout chasing...
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:


I don't see GarFOOL trying to put White Jews straight about their mythical magical beliefs....

Just African American Christians need healing, just African Moors, NOI or Muslims need to freed from their faulty beliefs... or the Hebrew Israelites..

---

Saneter and Garfield think black people cant unite properly with what they see as a random collection of superstitious anti-scientific religious beliefs
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Again for all those who are NOT ADOS/FBA

Let me make it clear.. religious beliefs are not the reason there is no unity...


Any movement to unify ADOS/FBA would be destroyed by the US government..

this is why we can't listen to the newly immigrated or foreigners who have not closely studied our HISTORY


AGENT GARFOOL DAGGER SQUAD IS A GASLIGHTER AGENT WORKING FOR THE FBI

PERIOD...
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
I've come to realize that @the lioness is a troll who likes to play games and instigate... funny how you have nothing to say about the source I provided that says Negroes in West Africa who were Jews were specifically targeted for the transatlantic slave trade.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
If you are a Sphardic Jew slave trader... and your slave is already circumcised it saves you a step doesn't it.. ?




As I was sitting here working I had a documentary about Iran and the overthrowing of the Shah by Khomeni..

I am telling you people that focus on ADOS "beliefs" have not studied American & British foreign policy enough....

They worship the yte man and have colonial mindsets and are not ready for the revolution


They blame the victim for their problems instead of the oppressors... victim blaming is GASLIGHTING a form of mental ABUSE and frankly counterintelligence...
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
If you are a Sphardic Jew slave trader... and your slave is already circumcised it saves you a step doesn't it.. ?




As I was sitting here working I had a documentary about Iran and the overthrowing of the Shah by Khomeni..

I am telling you people that focus on ADOS "beliefs" have not studied American & British foreign policy enough....

They worship the yte man and have colonial mindsets and are not ready for the revolution


They blame the victim for their problems instead of the oppressors... victim blaming is GASLIGHTING a form of mental ABUSE and frankly counterintelligence...

---

Exactly... another thing to think about... it's a well known fact that the Jews who were banished from Spain/Portugal during the Inquisition ("sephardic" Jews) were sold into slavery... so how in the world were the "sephardic" caucasian jew-ish people slaves AND slave owners at the same time? One of the eurocentric sympathizers in this thread need to make that make sense...
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
^^^^ Because the Swarthy Sephards converted their West African slaves... that is why.. also Sephardic men having children with their West African concubines...


So that mixed multitude got sent to San Tome?
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@Yatunde Lisa

But according to historical fact, the sephardic Jews who were banished from Spain/Portugal during the inquisition were sold into slavery... so how then were they also slave masters at the same time? The caucasian jew-ish people were converts.

PS, don't let these revisionists fool you with the word "swarthy"...

Definition of the word "swarthy" from the year 1828:

SWARTH'Y, adjective [See Swart.] Being of a dark hue or dusky complexion; tawny. In warm climates, the complexion of men is universally swarthy or black. The Moors, Spaniards and Italians are more swarthy than the French, Germans and English.

Their swarthy hosts would darken all our plains.

1. Black; as the swarthy African.

-- Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language, 1828 Edition

http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Swarthy

the word "swarthy" used in ihistorical context:

"...the Hebrew nation, the descents of Abraham, every variety of complexion, from the fair-haired, rosy and ruddy faced Englishmen, to the crisp and frizzley-haired, and dark and dusky countenance of the swarthy Negro."

"Transactions of the Ethnological Society of London" by John Murray, page 71 (1861)  Ethnological Society (London)

https://books.google.com/books?id=UOjHoCN4-QQC
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
I've come to realize that @the lioness is a troll who likes to play games and instigate... funny how you have nothing to say about the source I provided that says Negroes in West Africa who were Jews were specifically targeted for the transatlantic slave trade.

---

I missed that what is the primary source for that?
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

Cambridge University. Scroll up, it's there. 4th comment down from the top of the page.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

Cambridge University. Scroll up, it's there. 4th comment down from the top of the page.

---

what is the link for Godbey?
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

But according to historical fact, the sephardic Jews who were banished from Spain/Portugal during the inquisition were sold into slavery.

---

Not ALL.. some went to Turkey, France, Poland, Germany and the Netherlands


Didn't some end up in Mexico? Some of their descendants are in New Mexico, probably all over the New World.. some became Pirates
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

quote:

---

But according to historical fact, the sephardic Jews who were banished from Spain/Portugal during the inquisition were sold into slavery.

---

Not ALL.. some went to Turkey, France, Poland, Germany and the Netherlands

---

The point I'm making is that there were caucasian jew-ish slave masters in locations (St. Tome/Thomas for example) where banished sephardic Jews were sent to as slaves. Why weren't these "sephardic" caucasian jew-ish people slaves? How were they slavemasters?

"The Portuguese that dwelt on this Island informed the Netherlanders, that few lived above fifty years there, yet notwithstanding the great Gain tempted them to tarry, several of them having two or three hundred Negro's that worked in the SugarMills ; that John the Third, King of Portugal, sent a Colony thither above two hundred years before, whom though the unwholsome Air destroyed, yet the Place was not left desolate ; for he sent new Inhabitants, who first settled in Guinee, next in Angola, and lastly on the Island St. Thomas, that so they might be the better used to the Air ; that the said King sold all those Jews for Slaves that refused to embrace the Roman Religion, and caused their Children to be Baptized, from whom (coming thither in great numbers) most of the present Inhabitants were descended."

"America: Being the Latest, and Most Accurate Description of the New World" by John Ogilby, page 574 (1671) London

https://archive.org/stream/americabeinglate00mont?ref=ol#mode/2up

https://ia802600.us.archive.org/12/items/americabeinglate00mont/americabeinglate00mont.pdf
_______

"King John II in 1492, expelled all the Jews to the island of St. Thomas, which had been discovered in 1471, and to other Portuguese settlements on the continent of Africa ; and from these banished Jews, the black Portuguese, as they are called, and the Jews in Loango, who are despised even by the very Negroes, are descended."

"The Critical Review, Or, Annals of Literature, Volume 57" by Tobias George Smollett, page 141 (1783) W. Simpkin and R. Marshall

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Critical_Review_Or_Annals_of_Literat.html?id=d2IvAQAAMAAJ
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

Many of my Jewish friends in fact believed they were Sephardic. They believed that their ancestors came to Russia from Spain, with a detour through Germany after the Jews were expelled from Spain in 1492.

My friends and I were unaware of the existence of flourishing Jewish communities in western Germany, who had lived there since at least the 11th century — way before the Jews were expelled from Spain. Neither were we aware that Jews had lived in Slavic countries since at least the 10th century.

But most of all, we did not know what many people don’t know: that no group of Sephardic Jews ever migrated to Germany, with the exception of a single Sephardic community that made its way to Hamburg.

Indeed, this mistaken belief, that many European Jews have Sephardic origins, is not limited to us in our Soviet-imposed naïveté. Despite the prevalence of studies and textbooks, many Jews living in Israel, North America and Western Europe believe some of their ancestors spent the Middle Ages in Spain.

And it’s simply not true.

Let’s start with definitions.

The term Sephardic, derived from the medieval Hebrew word meaning Spanish, has multiple meanings. In a larger sense, it refers to communities that follow the religious rites and traditions of Jews from medieval Spain. This would include North African Jews, for example.

In a narrower sense, a Sephardic Jew is someone whose ancestors lived in medieval Spain. Numerous Jews with roots in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Libya consider themselves Sephardic for this reason (if they do not adhere to the theory of Judeo-Berbers).

They are not wrong. Lots of historical, linguistic and onomastic evidence indicates that this belief has solid ground. Rabbinic sources discuss the arrival of a number of Jewish families in the Maghreb in North Africa right after the massive persecutions of Spanish Jews of 1391. Spanish Jews found their way from the Kingdom of Aragon to Algeria. Thousands of Jews later came to Morocco from Spain after the expulsion in 1492.

This burgeoning community gradually created their own idiomatic language, Judeo-Spanish, also called Haketia, and rabbinical texts from the 17th and 18th centuries from all parts of Morocco still contain Judeo-Spanish texts. Later, in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries, hundreds of Jews with Sephardic roots migrated from Italy to Tunis, Tripoli, and Algiers. Moreover, since all these countries (except for Morocco) were inside the Ottoman Empire before the 19th century, a number of Ottoman Jews, also mainly with Sephardic roots, migrated there. At the time of their migration to the Maghreb, Jews from Iberia, Italy, and the Ottoman Empire were already bearing hereditary surnames. Spanish-based personal names such as Blanca (white), Luna (moon), Ora (gold), Plata (silver), and Rica (rich) were commonly used by Jewish women in North Africa.

---

https://forward.com/opinion/387971/many-sephardic-jews-arent-actually-sephardic/

^^^^

This is not really my area of study.. so.. I don't know.. I will leave that to the other "experts"
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@Yatunde Lisa

Lol... the easy answer is... they were converts. They are not really the Jews being spoken about in the history books, they are converts who assumed the identity.
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
QUOTE]Originally posted by Tazarah:
@zaharan

The fact of the matter is page 11 from Parfitt's book says black africans were mistaken as being Jews all of the time -- even during medieval times -- meaning the Jews themselves must have been black LITERALLY, and not just as a "metaphorical diss".

You're in denial but the quote from page 11 totally destroys your bogus "they weren't really black literally" argument and you appear to be having a very hard time accepting that.

You just keep repeating the same failed logic over and over again as if you don't understand what the source is saying. It's LITERALLY telling you that they were black -- so much so that they resembled literal black african people.

Then you keep saying the statement about only the Portuguese Jews being black proves your point about "black" only being used to "diss" the Jews -- well if that were the case then why weren't ALL of the Jews called black, if black was only being used as a "diss" to the Jews?

LOL.... you make absolutely no sense, and you are the king of deflection.

Stay on topic -- as I already asked you to do. We're dealing with one issue at a time here to prevent you from deflecting with your long-winded rants of deception. [/QUOTE]

ha ah ahahaha ahaha, come off your dumb bullshitt.. Your're fooling no one.
You began the thread with a boatload of crap, and were so dull that you
could not even offer a reference beyond the 1800s, but even with
a modern reference, you're still issuing crap. I had to point you to
an up to date reference, and with that you still fail.

Your latest item of crap now is your claim that there were no Jews
in the northern kingdom of Israel. What utter nonsense. When are you
gonna stop ducking and dodging and produce credible references
and evidence to back up this claim, "HeeBro"? Or maybe you making up
new "prophecy" to explain away your dumb blunders.


The Parfitt reference I had to spoon feed you with does say that
the Jews were dissed by comparing them to blacks. Quote:

"A long European tradition maintained that the Jews, in general, were certainly 'black'
metaphorically, in the sense that they were diabolical and evil, [b] as well as black literally."
"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 4

No one ever “denied” they did not have a black skin color as well. Hell Parfitt’s
whole book is built around skin color. The metaphorical part was pointed out
to you because you kept insisting that everybody was literally a black Jew.
This is practically impossible, for all Jews are not black. Sometimes they are
considered as “black” metaphorically, not only as regards skin color.

Ironically, you later confirm my point about the diverse nature of Jews when
you posted another 1700s reference by Mission, saying all Jews were not black,
making my point for me.
Quote from page 2:
---------------------- -------------------------------

quote:

---

3) But ironically, your own reference AGAIN goes on the debunk your claims- QUOTE:

[b]"Tis a vulgar error that the Jews are all black; for this is only true of the Portuguese, who, marrying always among one another, beget children like themselves, and consequently the swarthiness of their complexion is entail'd upon their whole Race, even in the Northern regions. But the Jews who are originally of Germany, those, for example, I have seen at Prague, are not blacker than the rest of their countrymen."

"A New Voyage to Italy" by Maximilien Misson, page 139 (1714) R. Bonwicke [/i]


You keep insisting that all these Jews are black. But your own "supporting"
reference, Misson, says that all Jews are NOT black, and indeed,
that the Jews of Prague are not blacker than the rest of their countrymen.
And in any event, we all know Portuguese come in a variety of shades, so
they can't, and were never all black. There goes another one of your
"Black Hebe" claims.

---

--------------------------------------- -------------------------

Let's once again recap your "HeeBro" bullshiit. Arguments fall short when claiming:

--that the religion of West Africa was Jewish when Europeans in the middle ages and mod era arrived

-- mass shipment of the black "Jews" above from West Africa to the Americas. This would make for some 12 million "Jews" hauled over the Middle Passage to Amurrica.. ROll eyes at your Heebro bullshiit..

-- massive numbers of Jews "fleeing" or migrating from Jerusalem to West Africa when the Romans took over


--that ALL Jews worldwide or regionally have to be in one spot for a prophecy to come true (theological?)

You then add yet another failure- another BS claim:

-- That there were no Jews in the northern kingdom of Israel. Seriously dude?

.
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
I've come to realize that @the lioness is a troll who likes to play games and instigate... funny how you have nothing to say about the source I provided that says Negroes in West Africa who were Jews were specifically targeted for the transatlantic slave trade.

---

I missed that what is the primary source for that?

---

Despite repeated requests that he produce credible evidence
for these claims, he still keeps ducking and dodging. Black Hebro
teaching holds that American bleks are descendants of all
these black Jewz. So this special "targeting" hauled some 12,000,000
Jews over the Atlantic into slavery in the Americas.

And did you know there were no Jews at all in Israel's northern kingdom?
Where did they go? How did the northern kingdom become "Jew free"?
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Everyone pay attention to how zaharan completely deflected and once again typed up a long-winded rant of red herrings and misrepresentations all to avoid dealing with the fact that page 11 of Parfitt's book debunks his favorite lie about the Jews "not literally being black", but only being called black "metaphorically" as an insult.

Parfitt states that BLACK AFRICANS were always mistaken as being Jews, which means the Jews themselves obviously must have been LITERAL black people who resembled black africans.

"In these fragmentary glimpses drawn from a variety of sources, we can see that Jews were considered to be black, to have a numer of African physical qualities, and ultimately to have a good deal of African blood. Similarly, black Africans in the nineteenth century and before, in a vast extraordinary number of cases were thought to be Jews, and indeed to have both Jewish characteristics and to be descended from ancient Israelite stock. From medieval times to the present, Jews have been thought to have 'black blood' in their veins and to have a number of African physical and other characteristics, including an African nose, African proportions, and African skin color."

"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 11 (2013) Harvard University Press

https://books.google.com/books?id=SBtqXClBWTIC
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
I've come to realize that @the lioness is a troll who likes to play games and instigate... funny how you have nothing to say about the source I provided that says Negroes in West Africa who were Jews were specifically targeted for the transatlantic slave trade.

---

I missed that what is the primary source for that?

---

Despite repeated requests that he produce credible evidence
for these claims, he still keeps ducking and dodging. Black Hebro
teaching holds that American bleks are descendants of all
these black Jewz. So this special "targeting" hauled some 12,000,000 Jews over
the Atlantic into slavery in the Americas. And its all foretold
in Deuteronomy 28.

And did you know there were no Jews at all in Israel's northern kingdom?
Where did the go? How did the norther kingdom become "Jew free"?

---

I LITERALLY already posted a source from Cambridge University that says Negroes in West Africa who were Jews were specifically targeted during the transatlantic slave trade.

Fourth comment down from the top of this page.

Maybe you should actually read for once in your life, instead of trying to lie and purposely misrepresent everything I say? Just a thought...

I NEVER said there were no Jews in Israel's northern kingdom -- STRAWMAN ALERT -- I said the northern kingdom tribes WERE NOT JEWS, the Jews made up the southern kingdom tribes.

Get it together zaharan, I'm not here to give basic lessons on history.

"In ancient times, a Yĕhūdhī was originally a member of Judah—i.e., either of the tribe of Judah (one of the 12 tribes that took possession of the Promised Land) or of the subsequent Kingdom of Judah (in contrast to the rival Kingdom of Israel to the north).

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Jew-people
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Thx 4/t ref 2/t source.

Been posting that for years but as anecdote
because I couldn't track down where I read it.
Unfortunately the Internet Archive lacks Vol 5

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
https://images2.imgbox.com/42/ad/w4QgIG0b_o.png

zarahan, what's up with these Portuguese Jeews?

---

"The Duchess d'Abrantes, wife of Napoleon's ambassador to Portugal, said that 'the Jew, the Negro and the Portuguese could be seen in a single person.' So dark were the Jews, especially of Portugal and Southern Spain that many whites thought all Jews were black or dark."

"Nature Knows No Color-Line: Research into the Negro Ancestry in the White Race" by J.A. Rogers, page 123 (1952) Wesleyan University Press

https://books.google.com/books/about/Nature_Knows_No_Color_Line.html?id=0T0HBgAAQBAJ

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
[qb] I've come to realize that @the lioness is a troll who likes to play games and instigate... funny how you have nothing to say about the source I provided that says Negroes in West Africa who were Jews were specifically targeted for the transatlantic slave trade.

---

I missed that what is the primary source for that?

---

Despite repeated requests that he produce credible evidence
for these claims, he still keeps ducking and dodging. Black Hebro
teaching holds that American bleks are descendants of all
these black Jewz. So this special "targeting" hauled some 12,000,000 Jews over
the Atlantic into slavery in the Americas. And its all foretold
in Deuteronomy 28.

And did you know there were no Jews at all in Israel's northern kingdom?
Where did the go? How did the norther kingdom become "Jew free"?

---

I LITERALLY already posted a source from Cambridge University that says Negroes in West Africa who were Jews were specifically targeted during the transatlantic slave trade.

---

Now you didn't

Ulysses Santamaria is published by Cambridge

but the quote you mention is by Godbey and he is not. You did not provide a title of his that contain this quote

>plus you have no idea who he is

-so why should we listen to him?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^ nobody help him please, teach a man to fish
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

Oh so now the source doesn't come from Cambridge? You do know that a publisher is responsible for any and all information that they publish, right?

Are you seriously trying to discredit Cambridge now, all because they produce information that debunks your false worldviews regarding ADOS?

If you disagree with the info, then you better contact Cambridge ASAP and ask them to retract their "false information" and let them know they're misleading people.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
you didn't provide a link that associates Godbey with Cambridge
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
you didn't provide a link that associates Godbey with Cambridge

---

You're a true troll.

I never claimed Godbey was associated with Cambridge.

Cambridge University is responsible for the publication of the work that makes reference to Godbey.

Now, is Cambridge publishing false information? Yes or no?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:


"Doctor Allen H. Godbey reached the following conclusion: 'These factors have a very specific significance if we consider the presence of Judaism among the American Negroes. Hundreds of thousands of slaves were transported to America from West Africa during the slave trade which started some 400 years ago. What traces of Judaism still remained among the Negroes of West Africa at that period? To the extent that they were persecuted they were more likely than other Negroes to be seized during wars and sold as slaves.'"

---

You have not shown a link which verifies this quote associated with it

Secondly you are still operating on the idea of "anything that's printed in a book is true, they don't have to prove it"

and

"all scholars agree
( and since they are scholars they don't have to prove they're right, we just pick the one we like better)"

"anything published by a University is true"

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:


Now, is Cambridge publishing false information? Yes or no?

---

I don't care who published it if it's wrong it's wrong
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:


https://www.jstor.org/stable/23997577?read-now=1&seq=19&fbclid=IwAR3Dvyy06-72I0U_u5e9xt8p2HI4KxNb2S-_j7ciYuvspOS2H4P-P5cUkC8#metadata_info_tab_contents

---

you are subscribed to JSTOR?

one would have to be to download and see if that quote is on there
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

So Cambridge University is publishing lies and false, unverified information?

LOL!!!

Contact them, and let them know about their mistake. Then watch them laugh you out of the room.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

So Cambridge University published lies and false information right?

LOL!!!

Contact them, and let them know about their mistake. Then watch them laugh you out of the room.

---

Dont be silly the author published by Cambridge says

"Doctor Allen H. Godbey reached the following conclusion:

_-- that doesn't mean Ulysses Santamaria agrees with him.

Nor does it mean that other authors quoted in an article are endorsed by the publisher of the article, stop this Mickey Mouseing

I know who Godbey is you don't
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
I've come to realize that @the lioness is a troll who likes to play games and instigate... funny how you have nothing to say about the source I provided that says Negroes in West Africa who were Jews were specifically targeted for the transatlantic slave trade.

---

I missed that what is the primary source for that?

---

Despite repeated requests that he produce credible evidence
for these claims, he still keeps ducking and dodging. Black Hebro
teaching holds that American bleks are descendants of all
these black Jewz. So this special "targeting" hauled some 12,000,000 Jews over
the Atlantic into slavery in the Americas. And its all foretold
in Deuteronomy 28.

And did you know there were no Jews at all in Israel's northern kingdom?
Where did the go? How did the norther kingdom become "Jew free"?

---

I LITERALLY already posted a source from Cambridge University that says Negroes in West Africa who were Jews were specifically targeted during the transatlantic slave trade.

Fourth comment down from the top of this page.

Maybe you should actually read for once in your life, instead of trying to lie and purposely misrepresent everything I say? Just a thought...

I NEVER said there were no Jews in Israel's northern kingdom -- STRAWMAN ALERT -- I said the northern kingdom tribes WERE NOT JEWS, the Jews made up the southern kingdom tribes.

Get it together zaharan, I'm not here to give basic lessons on history.

"In ancient times, a Yĕhūdhī was originally a member of Judah—i.e., either of the tribe of Judah (one of the 12 tribes that took possession of the Promised Land) or of the subsequent Kingdom of Judah (in contrast to the rival Kingdom of Israel to the north).

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Jew-people

---

Its good to see you have discovered sources more recent than the 1800s
but unfortunately the quotation you use makes it clear that the author
has no idea how many black Jews were shipped from West Africa, nor
does he have any idea as to the traces of Judaism remaining, nor does
he know the extent the black Jews were persecuted. Quote:

---------------------------------- -------------------------------
” Doctor Allen H. Godbey reached the following conclusion: 'These factors have a very specific significance if we consider the presence of Judaism among the American Negroes. Hundreds of thousands of slaves were transported to America from West Africa during the slave trade which started some 400 years ago. What traces of Judaism still remained among the Negroes of West Africa at that period? To the extent that they were persecuted they were more likely than other Negroes to be seized during wars and sold as slaves.'"
------------------------------ ---------------------

Dr Godbey has no evidence to proffer, all he does is ask
a series of frames as to:
--How may Jews shipped to Americas
--What traces of Judaism remain among West African negroes
--the extent to which the negroes were persecuted

Godbey says “to the extent they were targeted” but he has
no idea to what extent, and he has no idea as to Judaism
traces remaining, and he has no idea how many Jews were
shipped out. He says hundreds of thousands of negroes
but how many were Jews, and what credible source does
he offer as support? None.

^^This is a rather thin reed to make a claim of “black
Jews being targeted” for enslavement. Your Godbey
source has little idea, and says so, with his questions/frames..


I NEVER said there were no Jews in Israel's northern kingdom -- STRAWMAN ALERT -- I said
the northern kingdom tribes WERE NOT JEWS, the Jews made up the southern kingdom tribes.

Next, you say there were no Jews in the northern kingdom.
But your proferred reference fails to back up your argument on several counts.

First, the Jewish people were not known as "Jews" initially but as
"Hebrews" and "Hebrews" collectively, included BOTH the north and south.

Second, around the time of the Babylonian Exile the term "Yehudi" was used to
signify ALL adherents of Judaism. You are trying to make out that it
applied back in the day before the Exile, and before the term received common
acceptance.

You did not quote the following section from your link- quote:

"The Jewish people as a whole, initially called Hebrews (ʿIvrim), were known as Israelites (Yisreʾelim) from the time of their entrance into the Holy Land to the end of the Babylonian Exile (538 BCE). Thereafter, the term Yĕhūdhī (Latin: Judaeus; French: Juif; German: Jude; and English: Jew) was used to signify all adherents of Judaism."

Since "Yehudi" in the sense of "Jew" did not come into parlance until
the later Babylonian period, it cannot apply back to the time of the
northern and southern kingdoms. Therefore there were NO "Jews"
back then, either north or south, and your own reference confirms this.

But you misrepresented things, and said only the southern part had "Jews."
But your own link shows that "Yehudi" before the Exile contrasted NOT
Jew versus Non Jew, but Judah and the rest of Israel. The term
"Jew" cannot be applied to that earlier time, per your own link.

Once again, your argument falls apart, using your own "supporting" reference.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Also anybody who actually read the full article on JSTOR would be able to go to the references at the end of the article and be able to tell us the primary source of any reference quoted

(I realize this is above your head Taz, talk of references etc, proving things etc )
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

So Cambridge University published lies and false information right?

LOL!!!

Contact them, and let them know about their mistake. Then watch them laugh you out of the room.

---

Dont be silly the author published by Cambridge says

"Doctor Allen H. Godbey reached the following conclusion:

_-- that doesn't mean Ulysses Santamaria agrees with him.

Nor does it mean that other authors quoted in an article are endorsed by the publisher of the article, stop this Mickey Mouseing

I know who Godbey is you don't

---

Exactly. Godbey makes no definitive evidence-based claims. He has no idea:
--How may Jews shipped to Americas
--What traces of Judaism remain among West African negroes
--the extent to which the negroes were persecuted


Nor does it mean that other authors quoted in an article are endorsed by the publisher of the article, stop this Mickey Mouseing

LOL, indeed. He is trying to make it look like the article is making
some definitive point re "targeting" but it does no such thing,
and Godbey does no such thing either.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

"Doctor Allen H. Godbey reached the following conclusion: 'These factors have a very specific significance if we consider the presence of Judaism among the American Negroes. Hundreds of thousands of slaves were transported to America from West Africa during the slave trade which started some 400 years ago. What traces of Judaism still remained among the Negroes of West Africa at that period? To the extent that they were persecuted they were more likely than other Negroes to be seized during wars and sold as slaves.'"

"Blacks Jews: the religious challenge or politics versus religion" by Ulysses Santamaria, page 235 (1987) European Journal of Sociology, Cambridge University Press

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23997577?read-now=1&seq=19&fbclid=IwAR3Dvyy06-72I0U_u5e9xt8p2HI4KxNb2S-_j7ciYuvspOS2H4P-P5cUkC8#metadata_info_tab_contents

---

Indeed Taz, why am I even bothering about sources? The above says

" What traces of Judaism still remained among the Negroes of West Africa at that period? "

It's a question

I should have just read this more closely. He has no idea " What traces of Judaism still remained ??? "
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
LOL, everyone (all non-trolls) pay attention to how zaharan will respond to literally anything EXCEPT for the posts that address and debunk his blatant lies.

******* REPOST

Everyone pay attention to how zaharan completely deflected and once again typed up a long-winded rant of red herrings and misrepresentations all to avoid dealing with the fact that page 11 of Parfitt's book debunks his favorite lie about the Jews "not literally being black", but only being called black "metaphorically" as an insult.

Parfitt states that BLACK AFRICANS were always mistaken as being Jews, which means the Jews themselves obviously must have been LITERAL black people who resembled black africans.

"In these fragmentary glimpses drawn from a variety of sources, we can see that Jews were considered to be black, to have a numer of African physical qualities, and ultimately to have a good deal of African blood. Similarly, black Africans in the nineteenth century and before, in a vast extraordinary number of cases were thought to be Jews, and indeed to have both Jewish characteristics and to be descended from ancient Israelite stock. From medieval times to the present, Jews have been thought to have 'black blood' in their veins and to have a number of African physical and other characteristics, including an African nose, African proportions, and African skin color."

"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 11 (2013) Harvard University Press

https://books.google.com/books?id=SBtqXClBWTIC
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

The question is answered in the next sentence:

"To the extent that they were persecuted they [Jews] were more likely than other Negroes to be seized during wars and sold as slaves.'"
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
So now, since their false worldviews concerning ADOS having a Jew/Israelite heritage have been challenged and debunked, both zaharan and the lioness are claiming Cambridge University is responsible for the publication of false/unverifiable information.

LOL!!!!!!
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Taz:
” Doctor Allen H. Godbey reached the following conclusion: 'These factors have a very specific significance if we consider the presence of Judaism among the American Negroes. Hundreds of thousands of slaves were transported to America from West Africa during the slave trade which started some 400 years ago. What traces of Judaism still remained among the Negroes of West Africa at that period? To the extent that they were persecuted they were more likely than other Negroes to be seized during wars and sold as slaves.'"

_________________


Yes Dr. Godbey, yes hundreds of thousands of slaves were transported to America from West Africa during the slave trade which started some 400 years ago. Yes, true
But how many were Jews? " What traces of Judaism still remained" Yes Dr. Godbey how may remained 40?
4000?
what was it Dr. Godbey?

"To the extent that they were persecuted they were more likely than other Negroes to be seized during wars and sold as slaves.'"

Yes Dr. Godbey, if there were 3 or 4 Jews in there, since Jews are persecuted generally, their fellow Africans would have said "hey take these guys first, these Jews", they are the lowest on our totem pole"
OK I guess so Dr. Godbey
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
a lesser percentage of African slaves brought to the Americas were Muslim.

But where is one single slave import document documenting an African Jew coming in?

> or did they themselves not know they were Jews?


" What traces of Judaism still remained" Yes Dr. Godbey how may remained, maybe as you said they were first in line but what traces were left ? 5 people or 5 million, what was it??
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
^ that is not what the source is saying. It literally says Negroes who were Jews were MORE likely to be taken to america.

These facts hurt your feelings so bad that you're out here acting like a little child and trying to pretend the source doesn't say what it says. LOL

Since you've finally realized you can't attack the credibility of Cambridge University, your only other option is to play dumb.

You and zaharan both have got to be the biggest trolls on this website.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
a lesser percentage of African slaves brought to the Americas were Muslim.

But where is one single slave import document documenting an African Jew coming in?

> or did they themselves not know they were Jews?

---

Red herring. You done trolling yet?

"East of the great Popo begins the Dahomey (WEST AFRICA), guarded by the important town of Glehweh, known to Europeans by the various names of Fida, Hecedah, Whydah, Wida. The old writers called it Juda, and its inhabitants were said to be Jews, while the neighboring river Allala, whose real name is Efra, became the Euphrates. During the flourishing days of the slave trade, from sixteen to eighteen thousand were annually transported from Ajuda, as the Portuguese called this place, which at that time had a population of thirty-five thousand."

"The Earth and its Inhabitants" by Reclus, Elisée, and Keane, A. H., page 267 (1882) Princeton Theological Seminary Library

https://archive.org/details/earthitsinhabita12recl_0/page/n319/mode/2up/search/Fida  
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Vetting my first book teacher of Africana, Jamaica
born Joel Augustus Rogers (stood on tha blk side).

Le Juif, le Negre et le Portugais en une seule personne.




 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
[QB] ^ that is not what the source is saying. It literally says Negroes who were Jews were MORE likely to be taken to america.

These facts hurt your feelings so bad that you're out here acting like a little child and trying to pretend the source doesn't say what it says. LOL

Since you've finally realized you can't attack the credibility of Cambridge University, your only other option is to play dumb.

---

Godbey asks " What traces of Judaism still remained ???"
So he has no idea of their numbers
Secondly he assumes they would be picked first with absolutely zero evidence of an African Jew, some person documented with a name being picked first

he hs no evidence
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
[QB] ^ that is not what the source is saying. It literally says Negroes who were Jews were MORE likely to be taken to america.

These facts hurt your feelings so bad that you're out here acting like a little child and trying to pretend the source doesn't say what it says. LOL

Since you've finally realized you can't attack the credibility of Cambridge University, your only other option is to play dumb.

---

The eccentric Godbey asks " What traces of Judaism still remained"
So he has no idea of their numbers
Secondly he assumes they would be picked first with absolutely zero evidence of an African Jew, some person documented with a name being picked first

there is nothing there it is all smoke

---

^ lies. He posed a rhetorical question then answered it in the very next sentence. Keep playing dumb though, it works so well for you [sarcasm].
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
At various periods, indigenous tribes and peoples over all continents were identified as possible descendants of the Ten Lost Tribes. The supposed offspring of the Ten Lost Tribes have included different ethnic groups living in Asia – Afghanistan, Azerbaijan, Burma (Myanmar), Kurdistan, Kashmir, China, Japan; in various countries and regions of West Africa – Mali, Ghana, Nigeria; in Southern Africa – Zimbabwe, Lesotho, South Africa, Mozambique, in East Africa – Uganda, Ethiopia, Eritrea; in Europe – the Celts of the British Isles; in Oceania – the native people of New Zealand; in South America – Ecuador, Colombia, Venezuela; and in North America, where various native American nations as well as the Mormons were linked to the Ten Lost Tribes. Occasionally, beliefs disseminated by European travellers, Jews and Christians alike, were eventually adopted by some of the indigenous ethnic groups and sometimes, after being further elaborated by them, evolved into an integral part of their ethos and identity.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

Whatever helps you sleep at night. Why does the fact that ADOS have a Jew/Israelite heritage bother you so much?

That source from Cambridge University put the nail in the coffin.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Actually it doesn't.

Any Jew purchasing a circumcised man for himself
must take hataphath dam b*riyth. This is the drop
of blood of the covenant required of anusiym and
tiniqoth shenishbah returning to Jewish people.


Amsterdam and Western S&P read this law out
of practice for the enslaved. After a while they
interpretted that law as applicable only when
The Temple is standing and only in a sovereign
Jewish state.


SIDEBAR: The Jewish settlers tried their best to situate their plantations in a region settled almost exclusively by Jews, the “Jewish Savanna” in Surinam, a region of Jewish plantations, around a Jewish town—Jerusalem on the riverside.

The town had a synagogue, a Jewish court of law, a school and a unit of the national guard composed of Jews, with Jewish commanders. The plantation was quite a large settlement, numbering several hundred or even thousands. In 1694 the population of the Jewish Savanna totaled more than 570 Jews employing about nine thousand laborers in forty plantations, and in the mid-eighteenth century, two thousand Jews in 115 plantations with tens of thousands of laborers (Arbell 2002, 92). The Jews on the plantation were the owner, his wife and children, the overseer (not always Jewish) and the accountant. The others were plantation workers, usually salaried Indian workers or African slaves and house slaves. The owner’s wife was customarily in charge of the house slaves.


S&P were solidly and swiftly on their way to
whiteness by the 18th century. They made it
difficult for Jews of noticeable African black
descent to continue practicing Judaism while
retaining dignity.

Nearly the same thing happened in India
where there were apartheid-like conditions
inflicted by incoming 'eastern' Sephardiym.


=-=-=


It's a bitter play of agency and self-determination
whose main stage was in the Jodensvanna of 18th
century Srnan. The players being

• the first organized congregation of Jews of West African descent
• the mahhamd way across the Atlantic in the Netherlands.

As mahhamad directed discrimination increased and
the colourlingen raised impossible demands to them,
the Jewish Lightning struck. Burn baby burn. After
that nothing was the same for us in the west.

=-=-=

There's a wealth of published material on lancados
and the scroll and prayerbook congregations they
established in Senegambia and elsewhere in Atlantic
coastal Africa.

It's impossible to say which Senegambians worshiping
in a new S&P s*la may or may not have been bani Israil.
Some S&P refuging from the Expulsions and Inquisition
before the later trade towns were of West African
ancestry. Black, nearwhite, in between, they all
were New Christians in Amsterdam and they all
had to make t*shuba ie return to Jewish practice.

I'm pleased after, protesting the 500th year anniversary
of Sephardic expulsion poster issued by the Mother
Congregation for omitting Cabo Verde to Luanda Ngola
destinations of refugees, that the mainstream is
finally flowing in file. Long ago Godbey alerted
us all 'expelees' color might not've been white.

A lot has happened these last 30 years but so far
the Sister Congregation is more 'black friendly'.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
If you are a Sphardic Jew slave trader... and your slave is already circumcised it saves you a step doesn't it.. ?


As I was sitting here working I had a documentary about Iran and the overthrowing of the Shah by Khomeni..

I am telling you people that focus on ADOS "beliefs" have not studied American & British foreign policy enough....

They worship the yte man and have colonial mindsets and are not ready for the revolution


They blame the victim for their problems instead of the oppressors... victim blaming is GASLIGHTING a form of mental ABUSE and frankly counterintelligence...

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
[QB] ^ that is not what the source is saying. It literally says Negroes who were Jews were MORE likely to be taken to america.

These facts hurt your feelings so bad that you're out here acting like a little child and trying to pretend the source doesn't say what it says. LOL

Since you've finally realized you can't attack the credibility of Cambridge University, your only other option is to play dumb.

---

The eccentric Godbey asks " What traces of Judaism still remained"
So he has no idea of their numbers
Secondly he assumes they would be picked first with absolutely zero evidence of an African Jew, some person documented with a name being picked first

there is nothing there it is all smoke

---

^ lies. He posed a rhetorical question then answered it in the very next sentence. Keep playing dumb though, it works so well for you [sarcasm].

---

” Doctor Allen H. Godbey reached the following conclusion: 'These factors have a very specific significance if we consider the presence of Judaism among the American Negroes. Hundreds of thousands of slaves were transported to America from West Africa during the slave trade which started some 400 years ago. What traces of Judaism still remained among the Negroes of West Africa at that period? To the extent that they were persecuted they were more likely than other Negroes to be seized during wars and sold as slaves.'"


Again in sequence, you need to put your logical thinking cap on. He claims

1) hundreds of thousands of Africans were transported to the Americas

2) how many were Jews he has no idea

3) but if there were some Jews there they would probably be picked first because " they were persecuted" , they were already persecuted in Africa he suggests

No facts, not one backing any of this up


If it was a rhetorical question it would have been in this sequence:

"What traces of Judaism still remained among the Negroes of West Africa at that period? To the extent that they were persecuted they were more likely than other Negroes to be seized during wars and sold as slaves.'Hundreds of thousands of slaves were transported to America from West Africa during the slave trade"

Maybe if was like this you could make the rhetorical question argument BUT that would have to BEGIN with the rhetorical question
but it wasn't.

But it doesn't matter, there are no facts, no slave legers, no records of any kind to back any of his remarks here on Jews, total speculation except for the general hundreds of thousands of slaves being transported
_________________________________

And this is what you want it to mean:


Doctor Allen H. Godbug reached the following conclusion: ' Hundreds of thousands of slaves were transported to America from West Africa during the slave trade which started some 400 years ago. They picked mainly Jews because they were the cream of the crop"

if not this >>

Doctor Allen H. Godbro reached the following conclusion: ' Hundreds of thousands of slaves were transported to America from West Africa during the slave trade which started some 400 years ago. They picked mainly Jews because Africans already didn't want Jews there"


^^ One of these is how you want to see it. Let us know which one
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

The source says what it says. Anyone who is honest and isn't trying to play dumb can easily read it and see what it says.

So... once again, you're basically saying that Cambridge University is responsible for the publication of false and unverifiable information...... all because the source isn't written the way that you personally feel it should be.

LOL
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
According to the 17th century Tarikh al-Fattash and the Tarikh al-Sudan, several Jewish communities existed as parts of the Ghana, Mali, and later Songhai empires. One such community was formed by a group of Egyptian Jews, who allegedly traveled by way of the Sahel corridor through Chad into Mali. Manuscript C of the Tarikh al-Fattash described a community called the Bani Israel; in 1402, it lived in Tindirma, possessed 333 wells, and had seven princes as well as an army.

Another such community was that of the Zuwa ruler of Koukiya (located at the Niger River). His name was known only as Zuwa Alyaman, meaning "He comes from Yemen". According to an isolated local legend, Zuwa Alyaman was a member of one of the Jewish communities transported from Yemen by Abyssinians in the 6th century CE after the defeat of Dhu Nuwas. Zuwa Alyaman was said to have traveled into West Africa along with his brother. They established a community in Kukiya at the banks of the Niger River downstream from Gao. According to the Tarikh al-Sudan, after Zuwa Alyaman, there were 14 Zuwa rulers of Gao before the rise of Islam in the second half of the eleventh century.

Other sources stated that other Jewish communities in the region developed from people who migrated from Morocco and Egypt; others later came from Portugal. Some communities were said to have been populated by certain Berber Jews, like a group of Tuareg known as Dawsahak or Iddao Ishaak ("children of Isaac"). They speak a language related to Songhai, live in Ménaka Region in northeastern Mali and were formerly herders for Tuareg nobles.[9] In addition, some migrated into the area away from the Muslim rule of North Africa.

The well-known 16th Century geographer Leo Africanus - an Andalusian Berber convert to Christianity - mentions a mysterious small village of African Jews southwest of Timbuktu, who traded in exotic spices, weapons, and poisons

___________________________

Each of these things can be further researched
but what BHI often do is start with Deuteronomy and say that determines who is a Jew
> and then they go about saying remaining Africans who may actually have been Jews are not Jews - because they were not slaves,
Taz, this is what you believe??
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

The source says what it says. Anyone who is honest and isn't trying to play dumb can easily read it and see what it says.

So... once again, you're basically saying that Cambridge University is responsible for the publication of false and unverifiable information...... all because the source isn't written the way that you personally feel it should be.

LOL

---

An author quoting another author who speculates is not to be confused with historical records

If you want to deal with Cambridge history rather than somebody asking question about what traces of Judaism were left

look into the various volumes of The Cambridge History of Africa and stop this foolishness


https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=carmbrisge+africa

much of the books can be read here and you can search for "Jews" and find somethings. For all you Cambidge fans
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

Yup, just as I suspected -- anything that debunks your false worldviews will be labeled as not credible.

And I already told you, the question posed by Godbey was a rhetorical question that was answered in the next sentence.

Do you even know what a rhetorical question is?

Keep playing dumb and coming up with excuses, it's funny to watch.

PS, make sure you don't forget to contact Cambridge University and let them know they are publishing false and misleading information.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Hundreds of books on the slave trade, all part of a conspiracy not to mention that most slaves were Jews.
Taz, I was in denial but you won this one

My apologies to Cambridge !!!
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Hundreds of books on the slave trade, all part of a conspiracy not to mention that most slaves were Jews.
Taz, I was in denial but you won this one

My apologies to Cambridge !!!

---

PSALMS 83:1-5

"1 Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God.
2 For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head.
3 They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.
4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
5 For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:"
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

Let me know when you contact Cambridge and tell them about their false/misleading publications. Perhaps you can get them to do a retraction.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
read on !!
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Interesting, from a looks like Israeli gov propaganda site for Christians

BTW
the 'Tribes' of Israel as universally called up to read Torah
are Koheyn, Lewi, and Yisra'el. Few outside Lewi'iym,
of whom Kohaniym are a phratry, know their father's
fathers' tribe due to mixture going on since the fall
of the kingdom of Israel. When it was destroyed the
kingdom of Yehudah absorbed the refugees and the territorial
tribal land grants unravelled along with certainty of tribe.

But outside the Levant, Many of Israel know their tribe
and medieval travellors from Europe recorded the info in some cases.

The Iraqi rabbanate outright declared There are no Lost Tribes.
The Lost Tribes of Israel is a myth. My Master taught
Israel was scattered and for two or more reasons. The
prime ones. Disobediance. Gain proselytes among the Nations.
For the Eternal's glory upon the Ingathering of even those
whose Israelite identity was lost, stolen. or strayed.

quote:

---

http://jewswerehere.com/africa/westafrica/senegal/


Jews were here
Main menu
Skip to content

Home
Africa
Asia
Europe
Americas
Oceania
Posts
Sitemap

Senegal

Around 4,000 residents of Bani Israel in Senegal’s remote southeast are claiming they are of Jewish descent. They said that their fathers’ forefathers left Egypt in order to avoid persecution, claiming that they left the Horn of Africa and made their way west. They said that they had settled in the village of Bani Israel, where they had lived for thousands of years.

It is conjectured that their forefathers kept the secret of their Jewish heritage from their children so that they would not be compelled to practice Judaism in the midst of the other residents of the villagers, who were Muslim and led a Muslim lifestyle. However, that the knowledge of their Jewish origins has been passed down orally from generation to generation.

During World War II some Jews in Senegal were taken by the colonial administration in one internment camp at Sébikhotane for forced labour. Other Jews from Senegal were also forcibly sent to work at the Office du Niger in Mali.

Furthermore, at that time, the Jewish community in Senegal, many of whom, after fleeing the inquisition, had settled in the West African country in the 17th and 18th centuries, was subject to anti-Semitic legislation implemented in 1940 and 1941. Jews maintained a constant presence in the area until 1943.

---

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

---

http://jewswerehere.com/africa/westafrica/senegal/


During World War II some Jews in Senegal were taken by the colonial administration in one internment camp at Sébikhotane for forced labour. Other Jews from Senegal were also forcibly sent to work at the Office du Niger in Mali.

Furthermore, at that time, the Jewish community in Senegal, many of whom, after fleeing the inquisition, had settled in the West African country in the 17th and 18th centuries, was subject to anti-Semitic legislation implemented in 1940 and 1941.

---

quote:

---

http://jewswerehere.com/africa/northafrica/libya/


in 1941, the Jews still made up a quarter of the population of Tripoli and maintained 44 synagogues throughout the country. In 1942, Nazi German troops occupied the Jewish quarter of Benghazi, looted stores, destroyed Jewish homes, and deported more than 2,000 Jews to concentration camps, where more than one-fifth of them perished. Many Jews from Tripoli were sent to the Giado concentration camp, approximately 240 km south of Tripoli.

---

.

This is why my father went AWOL after enlisting for WWII
and finding himself assigned to the Sahara.
Plus he feared being confused for native.
The gov apparently understood. He got an honorable discharge
and they set him up with a cushy lucrative civil service career.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Thx 4/t ref 2/t source.

Been posting that for years but as anecdote
because I couldn't track down where I read it.
Unfortunately the Internet Archive lacks Vol 5

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
https://images2.imgbox.com/42/ad/w4QgIG0b_o.png

zarahan, what's up with these Portuguese Jeews?

---

"The Duchess d'Abrantes, wife of Napoleon's ambassador to Portugal, said that 'the Jew, the Negro and the Portuguese could be seen in a single person.' So dark were the Jews, especially of Portugal and Southern Spain that many whites thought all Jews were black or dark."

"Nature Knows No Color-Line: Research into the Negro Ancestry in the White Race" by J.A. Rogers, page 123 (1952) Wesleyan University Press

https://books.google.com/books/about/Nature_Knows_No_Color_Line.html?id=0T0HBgAAQBAJ

---

---

No problem. Yet another source that debunks the "Jews were not really black" lie, especially in the case of the Portuguese Jews.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Actually it doesn't.

Any Jew purchasing a circumcised man for himself
must take hataphath dam b*riyth. This is the drop
of blood of the covenant required of anusiym and
tiniqoth shenishbah returning to Jewish people.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
If you are a Sphardic Jew slave trader... and your slave is already circumcised it saves you a step doesn't it.. ?

---

---

Treating seventeenth-century phenomena, Davis offers a powerful depiction of the imagined and discursive place of slavery in Sephardic colonization. She speculates that the fact that so many African male slaves arrived circumcised “must have eased the worry of those Jews [in Dutch Brazil] who took seriously the biblical and halakhic requirement of circumcision.”19 In a noteworthy find, she discovered that Amsterdam Rabbi David Pardo recommended in his 1689 Spanish-language survey of laws Sephardic Jews should follow that plantation owners, in order to “complete” the African circumcisions of their slaves, need merely take a drop of blood, as halakhically required.

quote:

---

The continued rhetorical downplaying by Jewish scholars of the ugly sides of Jewish involvement in the slave system disheartens me. Very few seem willing to acknowledge in analytically significant ways, much less to focus on, the harsh, exclusionary, racialist behavior and attitudes of Jews toward blacks and mixed-race people in the Atlantic world. This aversion, intentional or unconscious, reflects some of the problems of identity politics even among sophisticated, supposedly critical scholars and the tempting ties of solidarity between scholarship of ethnicities and those ethnic communities. I understand why polities find it hard to acknowledge their failings and to engage in self-criticism. I cannot understand why it should remain so difficult for critical-minded scholars to do so.

---

quote:

---

Even as fine a scholar as Davis unfortunately falls into this pattern. Despite the fact that Pardo recommended in 1689 that plantation owners “complete” the African circumcisions of their slaves, by taking a drop of blood, as halakhically required, this does not tell us that slave-owners did this. No circumcision manual or prayer book that I know of reflects his suggested approach, though it existed since tannaitic times (it is cited in a baraita in the Babylonian Talmud, Shabbat 134b, among other rabbinic texts). Indeed, Pardo probably came up with this suggestion precisely because slave owners were not circumcising their slaves

---

quote:

---

Not another example of positive evidence has surfaced that Jewish masters regularly circumcised or immersed or drew a drop of blood from slaves despite the experiences of hundreds of Jewish slave owners with thousands upon thousands of slaves, from several colonies, over the course of several centuries. Let me be clear: obviously some masters must have conducted these rituals. That is not the point. The point is the analytical leap from a small number of exceptions to concluding a general inclusiveness on the part of Jews toward their slaves. This strikes me as wholly unwarranted. Those who make such a leap are guilty of projection rather than reading of the evidence.

---

https://brill.com/view/book/edcoll/9789004392489/BP000036.xml


Long article good read...
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
The issue is that often the translations have a different meaning from the original intend as an allegory.

---

A Jewish or Christian interpretation is that there are some allegories in the bible.

example,

Matthew 5:14-16
KJV

14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
_______________________________

The light of a candle is symbolic here, not supposed to be a commentary on the physics of a candle flame. It saying if you feel the spirit of God don't keep it hidden, let it be known to people

However an atheist might say there is much more allegory, apart from some possible bits and pieces of actual historical events, that most of the bible is mythology, didn't really happen. It is almost all allegory, symbolic stories and that God is an allegory.

However Jews, Christians and Muslims would say no, God is real, not an allegory and their holy books are are not mainly allegory and myth. There is some like the papabiles but most is not
_________________________________________

an opinion:

The Torah Is Not an Allegory

https://www.thetorah.com/article/the-torah-is-not-an-allegory

---

The above is wrong. The word allegory means something else. You cannot go and make up your own definitions.

In the 20 for 20 series the word and history of YHWH is bring addressed, and if I recall it correctly Moses as well. These are allegories with a completely different meaning. For this truly to be understood we need to look at Afroasiatic languages. And I wonder how much the author of The Torah.com truly knows about Afroasiatic languages. I once (about) two years ago had a conversation with some rabbi who claimed that Hebrew is not within the Afroasiatic phylum. I dropped paper after paper discredidting, but he was like nope. And I was like yup. He also was pro-confederate. Anyway, it doesn't surprise me, since Hebrew was not spoke by "his people"(Ashkenazi in his case) for all this time. And that is not to disparage or insult, it is what it is as is told by many.

quote:

---

allegory (n.)
"figurative treatment of an unmentioned subject under the guise of another similar to it in some way," late 14c., from Old French allegorie (12c.), from Latin allegoria, from Greek allegoria "figurative language, description of one thing under the image of another," literally "a speaking about something else," from allos "another, different" (from PIE root *al- (1) "beyond") + agoreuein "speak openly, speak in the assembly," from agora "assembly" (see agora). Related: Allegorist

---

https://www.etymonline.com/word/allegory#etymonline_v_8169


For example, I can give you this in return.

Joel 3:3 - AND THEY HAVE CAST LOTS FOR MY PEOPLE; AND HAVE GIVEN A BOY FOR AN HARLOT, AND SOLD A GIRL FOR WINE, THAT THEY MIGHT DRINK.


The following explains that by far more is going on…

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Gentleman found the afikomen he did!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
On what is based that these are captives?

Anyway, allegedly.

---

.

Agree with most everything except wondering if last
bird is a forked tail swallow or a sparrow maybe?
[ EDIT: Per Budge's dictionary p.cxxvi entry 53 issa kite ]
In any case we have "land Shasu YHWA [tetragrammaton?]".

For biblical archaeology this could well be the
Midianite land of Qeturah whose father Yithro
introduced Moish to the El[ohiym] of Yisra'el,
though iirc AEL has direct terms for Midian.

---

 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 
I just finished watching number 13, 14 and 15 of the 20 for 20 series.

#13 was with two scholars. The first one Egyptologist Emely Teeter, where she stated that research in sub Sahara and West Africa has been lacing when it comes to Egyptology. The second one was one the leading Assyriologist. Garfield tried to spin it into his them, but the Assyriologist clearly stated that some of the Israelites stayed in Babylon. Garfield insisted on all of the Israelites to have stayed in Babylon since the fall of the first temple. And this is logical since there is a Babylonian Talmud and Palestinian Talmud. Askinazis have a history in Babylon, which is evident in their gene pool. However that does not define that they are the only descendants. It just happens to be that due to Western powers they got to have the upper hand in spreading their information. As we have seen, the Torah mentioned the land of Pathros. Besides that it also mentions.

quote:

---

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (ISAIAH 11:11-12)

---

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15942/jewish/Chapter-11.htm

quote:

---

So shall the king of Assyria lead the captivity of Egypt and the exile of Cush, youths and old men, naked and barefoot, with bare buttocks, the shame of Egypt.

---

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15951/jewish/Chapter-20.htm

#14 CHUCK MORGAN " WERE SUMERIANS BLACK, AFRICAN?"

#15 PASTOR BENNETT " MISPLACED HATE HOW WHITE SUPREMACY DISTORTS BLACK HISTORY"

As of now I am at number 16 in the 20 for 20 series.

#16 PSEUDO KILLAS "THE END OF PSEUDOISMS AND SCIENTIFIC ILLITERACY"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGfoxgxer_s
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
The issue is that often the translations have a different meaning from the original intend as an allegory.

---

A Jewish or Christian interpretation is that there are some allegories in the bible.

example,

Matthew 5:14-16
KJV

14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
_______________________________

The light of a candle is symbolic here, not supposed to be a commentary on the physics of a candle flame. It saying if you feel the spirit of God don't keep it hidden, let it be known to people

However an atheist might say there is much more allegory, apart from some possible bits and pieces of actual historical events, that most of the bible is mythology, didn't really happen. It is almost all allegory, symbolic stories and that God is an allegory.

However Jews, Christians and Muslims would say no, God is real, not an allegory and their holy books are are not mainly allegory and myth. There is some like the papabiles but most is not
_________________________________________

an opinion:

The Torah Is Not an Allegory

https://www.thetorah.com/article/the-torah-is-not-an-allegory

---

The above is wrong. The word allegory means something else. You cannot go and make up your own definitions.

---

Definition of allegory

1: the expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions of truths or generalizations about human existence
.
2: a symbolic representation

What I'm saying is that if you say to a Jew, Muslim or Christian
"Your holy book may have some historical events but stories of God literally speaking to people and telling them various things, the parting of the red sea, turning water into wine, various unverified wars and plagues, Angels speaking to a man in a cave
all of this stuff are symbolic stories, allegories. None of this supernatural stuff actually happened and a lot of events including non-miraculous historical claims probably never happened or were exaggerated or changed in some way. Maybe a small fraction could be consider actual history"

what I'm saying is that a Jew, Christian or Muslim that practices the religion, that goes to a church, synagogue or mosque, that follows the laws and commandments and holy days indicated in each of these books

they are unlikely to agree with the above statement that their religion is basically an allegory, symbolic stories made up by regular men to teach various moral and principles.

Most would probably says God is real, he inspired men directly to write his book of laws for us to follow and inform of us of what happened in the past and how the universe came into existence. If you follow him you will be blessed and if choose to disobey him or believe in other gods there will be real consequences from a real God who exists
and is described in our book.
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
What I'm saying is that if you say to a Jew, Muslim or Christian
"Your holy book may have some historical events but stories of God literally speaking to people and telling them various things, the parting of the red sea, turning water into wine, various unverified wars and plagues, Angels speaking to a man in a cave
all of this stuff are symbolic stories, allegories. None of this supernatural stuff actually happened and a lot of events including non-miraculous historical claims probably never happened or were exaggerated or changed in some way. Maybe a small fraction could be consider actual history"

what I'm saying is that a Jew, Christian or Muslim that practices the religion, that goes to a church, synagogue or mosque, that follows the laws and commandments and holy days indicated in each of these books

they are unlikely to agree with the above statement that their religion is basically an allegory, symbolic stories made up by regular men to teach various moral and principles.

Most would probably says God is real, he inspired men directly to write his book of laws for us to follow and inform of us of what happened in the past and how the universe came into existence. If you follow him you will be blessed and if choose to disobey him or believe in other gods there will be real consequences from a real God who exists
and is described in our book.

---

That is not even the case. The crazy thing about all this is that it's a lost history for some reason. Most of it has a completely different history and intend. New people wrote and rewrote themselves into these histories, while it wasn't their legacy, that is what these scholars have been explaining.

It's like Black Americans (ADOS) who have a history in north America going back at least 400-500 years and new Black people (immigrants) coming in attaching themselves to this history. It's like ADOS culture (rap, R&B, House) and everyone else (worldwide) trying to rewrite and write themselves in to the history. It like people from outside of the South Bronx claiming to be the root of Hip Hop as well. It's that deep.

That is what they have been explaining. And it basically started with the "12 tribes", which are hypothetical, an allegory and not literally tribes descending from one man, the way people (we get to) read it in the translation.

I have to go now, so I will be online for a while.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
You see to not be aware of the perspective of someone who practices a particular religion.
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
You see to not be aware of the perspective of someone who practices a particular religion.

---

You seem not to be aware that you are dealing with people who are experts in their fields and make up the consensus. They do primary research into sources from field research, to verify what is true and to what degree.

And yes, it's painful when things are being debunked, or exposed.

I am out. Have a nice day.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

#13 was with two scholars. The first one Egyptologist Emely Teeter, where she stated that research in sub Sahara and West Africa has been lacing when it comes to Egyptology.

---

lacking? SHe literally said they are NOT LOOKING for connections..

Now this can be deliberate because most Egyptologist want "Egyptology" to stay in the Near East section of universities..

It could be prejudice.. it could be a myriad of things but "Egyptology" is making no concerted effort to find an AFRICAN context for ancient Egypt...
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
https://brill.com/view/book/edcoll/9789004392489/BP000036.xml


Long article good read...

---

Tazarah have you read this, you may find it interesting in regard to Portuguese Jews
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
[QB]

quote:

---

#13 was with two scholars. The first one Egyptologist Emely Teeter, where she stated that research in sub Sahara and West Africa has been lacing when it comes to Egyptology.

---

lacking? SHe literally said they are NOT LOOKING for connections..

---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rakr9zm0sY8

whats the time stamp?

the word "connection"

9:11

9:47

16:04

34:09
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
https://brill.com/view/book/edcoll/9789004392489/BP000036.xml


Long article good read...

---

Tazarah have you read this, you may find it interesting in regard to Portuguese Jews

---

If you're going to try saying they "weren't really black" then just say that so I can debunk it. Plenty of sources written in the earlier centuries prove they were literal black people.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
https://brill.com/view/book/edcoll/9789004392489/BP000036.xml


Long article good read...

---

Tazarah have you read this, you may find it interesting in regard to Portuguese Jews

---

If you're going to try saying they "weren't really black" then just say that so I can debunk it. Plenty of sources written in the earlier centuries prove they were literal black people.

---

Yatunde Lisa posted it. It's long, I haven't read most of it yet but it seems to have a lot of detail on the Portuguese
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

Here's a clip from an interview with Tudor Parfitt where he explicitly states that black Jews were banished to West Africa from Spain/Portugal during the Inquisition.

https://youtu.be/IwC-bb0gJH4
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
This is the full length video , this clip above is at the 12:58 mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uRCDZENxpQ

SCHOLARS 20 FOR 20 #8 DR TUDOR PARFITT "WHO ARE THE LOST TRIBES OF ISRAEL? LEMBA, DNA,LOANGO JEWS"
_______________________________

Here is a link to the book he wrote that he mentions in the clip,= called Hybrid Hate

and with many parts readable at link

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Hybrid_Hate/1_pzzQEACAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

Yes, and the isolated part that I linked shows Parfitt clearly stating that communities of black Jews in West Africa at the end of the 15th century were a direct result of the Inquistion/Expulsion of the Jews from Spain/Portugal.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

Here's a clip from an interview with Tudor Parfitt where he explicitly states that black Jews were banished to West Africa from Spain/Portugal during the Inquisition.

https://youtu.be/IwC-bb0gJH4

---

Tudor Parfitt

"some of my recent work uh
if you read
very attentively
you'll have to go to the footnotes
you will see there's got a lot of
a lot of evidence produced
for black jewish communities in
different parts
of west africa which
are not sort of based upon
a particular reading of tribal history
let's put it like that
but are based from on
a fairly hard historical fact
and the base this hard historical fact
is the
expulsion of the jews from spain and
from portugal at the end of the 15th
century
subsequent to which um
a lot of jews settled first of all in
north west
africa places like senegal
in the islands which i'm sure you know
about san tome and
Principe principally
and then less known um along the
the coast of guinea so that in the
middle of the 50
middle of the 16th century 1560 to be
precise
the portuguese
archbishop of goa in india
proclaimed that judaism is a kind of
horrible illness which has
killed millions of people throughout
history and
um the result of being jewish
was to be covered in in shame to
fail in everything
even among the black jews
of guinea so in other words
the existence of jews in the
western part of africa was
absolutely accepted at the time
by the likes of the portuguese
archbishop of goa"

________________________


when he says:

black Jewish communities in
different parts of west Africa which
are based on the expulsion of the Jews from Spain and from Portugal at the end of the 15th
century

What does he mean "based on"?

He didn't say
"Black Jews of Spain and from Portugal at the end of the 15th century were expelled to parts of West Africa"

why does he instead say "based on" ?
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

LOL! I guess the black Jews just magically dropped out of the sky then? That must be what he meant, huh?

No, you're just trolling as usual. What he said is clear as day. There were black Jews in Portugal and they were banished to West Africa.

"Thus the black color is found not only in individuals, as the black Jews of Portugal, but in tribes, as the Bicharis on the Red sea, whose hair and character are perfectly Semitic;"

"Sources of History in the Pentateuch: Six Lectures Delivered in Princeton Theological Seminary" by Samuel Colcord Bartlett, page 118 (1883) New York, A.D.F. Randolph & company

https://books.google.com/books/about/Sources_of_History_in_the_Pentateuch.html?id=eUxGAAAAYAAJ
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

LOL! I guess the black Jews just magically dropped out of the sky then? That must be what he meant, huh?

What he said is clear as day. There were black Jews in Portugal and they were banished to West Africa.

"Thus the black color is found not only in individuals, as the black Jews of Portugal, but in tribes, as the Bicharis on the Red sea, whose hair and character are perfectly Semitic;"

"Sources of History in the Pentateuch: Six Lectures Delivered in Princeton Theological Seminary" by Samuel Colcord Bartlett, page 118 (1883) New York, A.D.F. Randolph & company

https://books.google.com/books/about/Sources_of_History_in_the_Pentateuch.html?id=eUxGAAAAYAAJ

---

You have an interesting concept. I have never heard it before. Black Jews weren't in Africa until the Spanish expulsion in 1492.
They were in Spain and Portugal. Somehow The Israelites had gotten to Portugal and this is where they were before being in Africa.

However the Portuguese were the first Europeans involved in acquiring African slaves by ship and this occurs around 50 years before 1492.
So you can see the problem here with your interesting concept.

The Portuguese began importing African slaves in the 1430s and 1440s.
The number of black slaves in Portugal given by contemporary accounts argue that Lisbon and the colonies of Portugal averaged a maximum of 10% of the population between the 16th and 18th centuries. A common estimate is that around 2000 black slaves arrived in Lisbon annually after 1490. During the 15th century, there were thousands of Africans in Portugal but were rare in Europe. The majority of Africans were servants but some were considered as trustworthy and responsible slaves. Slave auctions occurred in the town or market square, or in the streets of central Lisbon. Some slaves in Lisbon could find themselves working in domestic settings, but most worked hard labor in the mines and metal forges, while others worked at the docks loading and maintaining ships. Some slaves worked peddling cheap goods at the markets and returning the profits to their masters. Slave raids in Sub-Saharan Africa began in the 1430s and 1440s as war campaigns, but this period was short-lived. The Portuguese quickly transitioned into a trade network with African nobility and slavers.
Slavery was abolished in Portugal in 1761 by the Marquês de Pombal. After the abolishment of slavery in Portugal, the Portuguese slave traders turned to clients in other countries where slavery was not yet abolished, predominantly to Brazil. However, Slavery within the African Portuguese colonies was only abolished in 1869 and Portuguese involvement in slavery in its colonies continued into the 20th century.

Anyway the Portuguese were already bringing in African slaves to Portugal beginning in in the 1430s and 1440s.
n 1455, Pope Nicholas V gave Portugal the rights to continue the slave trade in West Africa, under the provision that they convert all people who are enslaved. The Portuguese soon expanded their trade along the whole west coast of Africa. Infante D Henrique held the monopoly on all expeditions to Africa granted by the crown until his death in 1460. Afterward, any ship sailing for Africa required authorization from the crown. All slaves and goods brought back to Portugal were subject to duties and tariffs. Slaves were baptized before shipment. Their process of enslavement, which was viewed by critics as cruel, was justified by the conversion of the enslaved to Christianity.

The high demand for slaves was due to a shortage of laborers in Portugal.

So we have this slaved trade going on in Portugal going on before the Spanish Expulsion of Jews in 1492.

And the Spanish were involved in importing slaves form Africa by ship as well beginning with Portuguese captains Antão Gonçalves and Nuno Tristão in 1441. In 1462, Portuguese slave traders began to operate in Seville, Spain. During the 1470s, Spanish merchants began to trade large numbers of slaves.

So before the expulsion of the Jews and Muslims form Spain in 1492 the Portuguese and Spanish were importing slaves.

All this is before America got involved.
It is a couple of decades later when slavery of blacks starts in the Americas
In 1526, enslaved Africans were part of a Spanish expedition to establish an outpost on the North American coast in present-day South Carolina. The largest amount of African slaves went to Brazil in the 1530s, African slavery was established at least by 1549. And the Europeans colonization of Brazil also starts with the Portuguese.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

When did I say that black Jews weren't in Africa until the spanish Inquisition?

Your post has nothing to do with anything I've said or any evidence I've presented...
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

When did I say that black Jews weren't in Africa until the spanish Inquisition?

Your post has nothing to do with anything I've said or any evidence I've presented...

---

Did you recall saying this?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

Yes, and the isolated part that I linked shows Parfitt clearly stating that communities of black Jews in West Africa at the end of the 15th century were a direct result of the Inquistion/Expulsion of the Jews from Spain/Portugal.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
[QB] @the lioness

That's great. Next time you want to criticize or complain about ADOS claiming their Israelite heritage, make sure you remember this source from Cambridge University.

It says that Negroes who were Jews in West Africa were specifically targeted for the transatlantic slave trade. Our ancestors were in fact Jews and knew who they were prior to the transatlantic slave trade.

"Doctor Allen H. Godbey reached the following conclusion: 'These factors have a very specific significance if we consider the presence of Judaism among the American Negroes. Hundreds of thousands of slaves were transported to America from West Africa during the slave trade which started some 400 years ago. What traces of Judaism still remained among the Negroes of West Africa at that period? To the extent that they were persecuted they were more likely than other Negroes to be seized during wars and sold as slaves.'"

"Blacks Jews: the religious challenge or politics versus religion" by Ulysses Santamaria, page 235 (1987) European Journal of Sociology, Cambridge University Press

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23997577?read-now=1&seq=19&fbclid=IwAR3Dvyy06-72I0U_u5e9xt8p2HI4KxNb2S-_j7ciYuvspOS2H4P-P5cUkC8#metadata_info_tab_contents

---

So everything I posted is about that.
So above you say Black Jews in West Africa were specifically targeted for slavery because they were Jews.
Then you say these Black Jews are in West Africa because they had been in Portugal and then were expelled.

And that doesn't make since because the Portuguese started importing African slaves 1430s-1440s and that lasted until 1761.

You may not know this but historical claims need to make sense in historical contexts.
You claim they were expelled from Portugal in a period of time when they were taking slaves from Africa TO Portugal and sold at auction.

You aren't built for this
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

You do know that the transatlantic slave trade and Inquisition are directly connected right?

There are sources that say the same Jews who were banished to West Africa were also taken to America.

Nice try... but your attempts at obfuscating the facts won't work.

_______

"King John II in 1492, expelled all the Jews to the island of St. Thomas, which had been discovered in 1471, and to other Portuguese settlements on the continent of Africa ; and from these banished Jews, the black Portuguese, as they are called, and the Jews in Loango, who are despised even by the very Negroes, are descended."

"The Critical Review, Or, Annals of Literature, Volume 57" by Tobias George Smollett, page 141 (1783) W. Simpkin and R. Marshall

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Critical_Review_Or_Annals_of_Literat.html?id=d2IvAQAAMAAJ

_______

"...which led the Roman Catholic Missionaries, who laboured here during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, to the conclusion that they had found black Jews in Loango."

"The Nautical Magazine and Naval Chronicle for 1870" by Various, page 529 (2013) Cambridge University Press

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Nautical_Magazine_and_Naval_Chronicl.html?id=BwrsiE3i49AC&hl=en

_______

"...it would have been somewhat singular if the Roman Catholic missionaries at Loango had not detected this circumstance instead of regarding them as a pure African family of Jews... ...It is important to remark, however, that those families in Africa cannot be fairly estimated by such specimens of the nation as have been brought to America ; for the subjects of the slave trade have almost invariably been gathered either from certain degraded clans that are interspersed among the more powerful tribes..."

"The Nautical Magazine and Naval Chronicle for 1870" by Various, page 529 (2013) Cambridge University Press

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Nautical_Magazine_and_Naval_Chronicl.html?id=BwrsiE3i49AC&hl=en
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

Big LOL @ you for trying to pretend that my sources contradict each other when in reality they clearly do not.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_São_Tomé_and_Príncipe

Portuguese São Tomé and Príncipe

The Portuguese explorers João de Santarém and Pêro Escobar discovered the islands around 1470,[1] which they found uninhabited.[2] The São Tomé island was named by the Portuguese in honor of Saint Thomas, as they discovered the island on his feast day, while the Príncipe island (Prince's island) was named in honor of Afonso, Prince of Portugal, his father's favorite.[1]

The first attempt of settlement in the islands began in 1485, when the Portuguese Crown granted to João de Paiva the São Tomé island. However, this attempt was not successful, because the settlers were unable to produce food in the specific conditions and climate that the islands offered, and because of the tropical diseases that affected the settlers.[1] It was only in 1493 when King John II of Portugal nominated Álvaro Caminha as captain-major of São Tomé island, that the first successful settlement was established.[1] Among these Portuguese settlers, there was a significant portion of criminals and orphans, as well as Jewish children taken from their parents to ensure that they were raised as Christians.[3] Settlement of the Príncipe island was initiated in 1500.[1]

In the following years, the Portuguese settlers started to import large numbers of slaves from mainland Africa to cultivate the rich volcanic soil of São Tomé island with highly profitable sugar cane. By the middle of the 16th century São Tomé generated enormous wealth to Portugal when it became the world's largest producer of sugar.[4]

In the first decade of the 17th century, the competition of sugar plantations from the Portuguese colony of Brazil and the frequent slave revolts that occurred in the island, begun to slowly hurt the sugar crop cultivation,[1] This meant the decline of sugar production, and the shifting of the local economy towards the slave trade,[2] who remained mostly in the hands of the local mestiço population.[4] The geographical location of the islands made them a crucial trading post of the transatlantic slave trade,[5] as they served as an assembly point of the slaves brought from the Gulf of Guinea and the Kingdom of Kongo and destined to the Americas.[4]

The Dutch occupied the São Tomé island in 1641, until 1648 when the Portuguese took back the island.[5] The Dutch, however, did not take Príncipe island.[5]

In 1753, because of the frequent attacks by pirates and corsairs, the capital of the São Tomé island was transferred to Santo António on Príncipe, and the islands started being ruled as a single colony, with only one Governor.[4] It was only in 1852 when the capital was transferred back to São Tomé island.[6]

At the beginning of the 19th century, the Portuguese introduced coffee and cocoa in extensive large-scale plantations called roças, thus giving a great boost to the economy. The coffee production cycle ended in the late 19th century, when it was replaced by cocoa as the islands' main production. São Tomé and Príncipe then became a major global cocoa production area for several generations, and in the first decades of the 20th century, it was frequently the world's annual number one cocoa producer.[2]

In 1972, a nationalist political party of Marxist ideology, the Movement for the Liberation of São Tomé and Príncipe (MLSTP), was created by exiles in Equatorial Guinea with the intent of creating an independent nation. The Carnation Revolution in 1974 ended the Estado Novo dictatorship in Portugal and initiated a process of decolonization of the Portuguese colonies in Africa. On 12 July 1975, the new Portuguese regime granted independence to São Tomé and Príncipe.[5]
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Don't be ignorant of the history of Iberia and western African. Study up!

Yes. At the same time Jews were expelled from Spain and later Portugal
the trade in African people was already underway. So of course there
was bidirectional movement.

When lançados began setting up congregations in West Africa from
Cabo Verde onto Luanda few Atlantic side of Africa sprinkling of
'Hebrews' observed Jewish law (halakha) and custom (minhagh).

North in the Islamic states remnants of Jews (long since incorporated
into al-Murabitun in the 11th century after they destroyed independent
Jewish city-states in Mauritania) were suppressed and oppressed due to
al_Maghili (may his bones be ground to dust) mass murdering Jews in Tuat
and persuading Mali/Songhai emperors and heads of state to raze synagogues
to the ground. Was it Leo who recorded how vicious Askia Muhammed was to
even visiting Jewish merchants? Is he the one who bragged he didn't leave
enough Fulani alive to fit under a tree?

Yes, 'Hebrews' were targeted for the external slave trade.
Despite Parfit discounting Africans history of themselves
as non-factual we do know some Afrs just hated us and still
do. Some feared we'd bring something like the 10 Plagues down
on them (i heard this myself lips to ear).

Oh, it must've been around 1982 in a book found in Westerville
Ohio when I uncovered the below bit of history that Hunwick sees
it but doesn't believe it. But wait, no, before presenting that,
tell me why this google bing duckduckgo[ose] search returns empty for me?

"sale of Negro Jews is rigorously forbidden"

 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

Big LOL @ you for trying to pretend that my sources contradict each other when in reality they clearly do not.

---

That is what this person does. Argue to argue endlessly and at times baselessly. Not always, but in a lot of cases, yes. It's not about finding the truth, but about "winning" when it comes to Lioness.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
The Euro-Arab arrogance is appalling.

African histories are fantasy unless an Arab
or European vets them by writing them down.
Reading beyond that bias the below will surely educate.

quote:

---

“Jews of a Saharan Imagination: Reversing the Historical Oversight of Jewish Communities in West Africa,” Janice Levi, University of California, Los Angeles
Ahmad A. Sikainga, Ohio University of Ohio



(Re)emerging Jewish communities in West Africa are presently relying on oral narratives and embodied memories to understand a believed Jewish past. For the House of Israel in Ghana, their faith identity is tethered to an imagined Jewish past that stretches north to the Sahara and east to Israel. Although many corroborate a history that originated in Côte D’Ivoire and Mali, there is dissension when it comes to historicizing their past prior to those locations. Without written record and divergences in the oral narrative, their belonging to the Jewish community traced through genealogical lineage becomes imagined. In excavating the materials available from the Muslim authored manuscripts of the medieval era to the European encounter in the early modern era, these imaginations are becoming realized with a documented Jewish past. Critical to these written contributions is the work of John Hunwick whose translations and scholarship provide detailed evidence of a Jewish presence in West Africa, but also reveals the conditions in which these Jews lived. This documentation challenges master narratives that attempt to eliminate the authenticity and the very existence of these communities who claim a Jewish history in Africa south of the Sahara.





“Sons of Himyar, Quraysh and Saints. Race, Slavery and Islamic Legitimacy in the Borno Sultanate (13th-17th centuries),” Rémi Dewière, Institut des mondes africains



By claiming a Yemeni origin, the Sefuwa sultans of Kanem (actual Chad) and then Borno (Nigeria) aimed to be recognized as a “white people to the south of the Sūdān,” meaning a Semitic people among Hamitic people. By doing so, the Sefuwa claimed Jewish legends for themselves through Arabic literature (Hunwick, 2006: 79). Used at a local and a transregional level, Islamic classification of races was both a juridical protection against slavery and a justification of its practice by the political elites of Kanem and Borno in a context of the increasing of trans-Saharan slave trade economy. Genealogy was also one of the tools that Sefuwa dynasty mobilized in order to strengthen their Islamic legitimation between the 13th and the 17th centuries. During the medieval and early modern period, genealogy, sainthood and miracles have been employed to legitimize the sultan’s power among Muslims in the lake Chad basin in the context of a dynamic of competition among political and regional powers. This paper aims to show how the Islamic legitimacy of the Borno sultans changed over the centuries, following the evolutions of religious practices in the area, and the role played by the ‘ulamā’ or Muslim scholars in the process.

---

.

I did not know Hunwick died, but that and the
inestimable debt students of African owe him
cannot subvert critical review of his work.
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

quote:

---

#13 was with two scholars. The first one Egyptologist Emely Teeter, where she stated that research in sub Sahara and West Africa has been lacing when it comes to Egyptology.

---

lacking? SHe literally said they are NOT LOOKING for connections..

Now this can be deliberate because most Egyptologist want "Egyptology" to stay in the Near East section of universities..

It could be prejudice.. it could be a myriad of things but "Egyptology" is making no concerted effort to find an AFRICAN context for ancient Egypt...

---

You are right, but I was just paraphrasing. Facts are that these scholars didn't give Garfield what he wanted, which was to create his narrative. At least that is what I got out of it.
I am about to watch #17 Russell Gmirkin "Greek connections with the old testament".
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/the-story-of-senegal-s-hated-reclusive-jewish-community-1.5492027

The Story of Senegal''s Hated, Reclusive 'the Jewish Community

Portuguese navigators documenting their voyages around Africa's shores in the 15th century, actually reveal how the Europeans saw the world – and the Jews

In the 15th century, the Portuguese began to sail south along the West African coast, searching for the sea route to India. Along the way, they landed in all sorts of places along the coast, where they traded with the natives, and documented everything they saw.

One of these documents, written by an anonymous Portuguese navigator, it provides us with a rare glimpse into a very strange phenomenon: A group of Jews who lived in West Africa, near the Gambia River.

“Some of the people here in the united states in the Country, but the majority are idol worshippers,” the club, the nameless, Portuguese navigator. “In this land, there are Jews would reduce the Gauls, and they are black like the rest of the inhabitants. But they have been in the synagogues and on the not to conduct Jewish ceremonies.”

Given this, why was his English navigator, convinced that they were Jews? For The rest of his letter sheds some light on the matter.

“They do not live with the other blacks, but separately,” he reported. “Because they do not dare enter the villages, they locate themselves, the behind-the-times-of-the-ruler-of-the-village-and at dawn, they sing his praises, until he grants them a portion of the millet. And then they go. If they didn't do so for the rest of the blacks would not tolerate them, so great is their hatred for them, which forbids them from entering any house, except for that of the ruler of the village. If they find them back in the village, where they are beaten with sticks.”

Many societies in West Africa have been wandering storytellers known as the griot, jeli, jali, jawal, gaulu, etc. It seems that these are the same “Gauls” or the Portuguese navigator, and saw.

These traveling troubadours commanded great respect, and had a defined role in the tribal society of western Africa. However, they also lived separately from the rest of the inhabitants of the region, and lived off their art.

So why did the Portuguese navigator, and decide they were Jews?

When he arrived in Africa, and noticed a completely separate group of people, and, furthermore, the seemingly hated group, he could only use the terms that he knew to describe them. Because the only group in the world that he came from the match, such as the description was, for the Jews, and the “Gauls” all of a sudden became Jews for him, even after he himself admitted they did not conduct a single, known Jewish ritual.

More than anything else, this story teaches us how, when we reach the most isolated and distant corner of the world, we are capable of seeing it only through the perspective that we brought with us from home.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

Big LOL @ you for trying to pretend that my sources contradict each other when in reality they clearly do not.

---

That is what this person does. Argue to argue endlessly and at times baselessly. Not always, but in a lot of cases, yes. It's not about finding the truth, but about "winning" when it comes to Lioness.

---

Exactly... at first I thought it was just me but at this point it's obvious and ridiculous.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

When lançados began setting up congregations in West Africa from Cabo Verde onto Luanda few Atlantic side of Africa sprinkling of
'Hebrews' observed Jewish law (halakha) and custom (minhagh).

---

Tazarah do you know what a lancado is?
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

When lançados began setting up congregations in West Africa from Cabo Verde onto Luanda few Atlantic side of Africa sprinkling of
'Hebrews' observed Jewish law (halakha) and custom (minhagh).

---

Tazarah do you know what a lancado is?

---

Yes, and they were black.

"Jobson describes these lancados under the name of Portingales: 'I must breake of a while from them, and acquainte you first, of another sort of people we finde dwelling, or rather lurking, amongst these Mandingos, onely some certaine way up the Riuer.
"And these are, as they call themselves, Portingales, and some few of them seeme the same; others of them are Molatoes, betweene blacke and white, but the most part as blacke, as the naturall inhabitants: they are scattered, some two or three dwellers in a place, and are all married, or rather keepe with them the countrey blacke women, of whom they beget children..."

"Africa and the Discovery of America, Volume 2" by Leo Wiener, page 110 (1922) Innes & Sons

https://ia600700.us.archive.org/5/items/africadiscoveryo02wienrich/africadiscoveryo02wienrich_bw.pdf
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

Jews in West Africa were specifically targeted for the transatlantic slave trade. Our ancestors were in fact Jews and knew who they were prior to the transatlantic slave trade.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

Yes, 'Hebrews' were targeted for the external slave trade.

---

Are you sure about that, that we can look at various books on the slave trade to America and they say Black Hebrews or Jews were the primary group taken as slaves and that they were preferred or easier to acquire?
Are there any slave ledger documenting this?
Are there any slave era writing in America talking about Black Hebrews?
I know a certain percentage of slaves were Muslim but of Black Hebrews, even if not the main group is their any shipping document of them?
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

Jews in West Africa were specifically targeted for the transatlantic slave trade. Our ancestors were in fact Jews and knew who they were prior to the transatlantic slave trade.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

Yes, 'Hebrews' were targeted for the external slave trade.

---

Are you sure about that, that we can look at various books on the slave trade to America and they say Black Hebrews or Jews were the primary group taken as slaves and that they were preferred or easier to acquire?
Are there any slave ledger documenting this?
Are there any slave era writing in America talking about Black Hebrews?
I know a certain percentage of slaves were Muslim but of Black Hebrews, even if not the main group is their any shipping document of them?

---

I've provided multiple sources stating this. That black Jews were banished from Spain/Portugal to West Africa and then subsequently caught up in the transatlantic slave trade to America. I've even provided a source from Cambridge literally stating the fact that Negroes who were Jews were targeted specifically for slavery in America.

Usually it's the older books that contain this sort of information. They beat our names, identity and culture out of us during slavery for a reason. So I don't know why you expect all of this to be common and mainstream information.

As Ish already stated, it's clear that you are not here for the truth, but to argue baselessly and deny/reject historical facts.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

I've provided multiple sources stating this. That black Jews were banished from Spain/Portugal to West Africa and then subsequently caught up in the transatlantic slave trade to America. I've even provided a source from Cambridge literally stating the fact that Negroes who were Jews were targeted specifically for slavery in America.

---

You don't have the ability to distinguish an author speculating from and author stating a fact backed by evidence. You have no concept of what evidence even is.

Most Jews that were expelled from Spain did not resemble West Africans. It is not known to what extent Jews in Portugal before the expulsion of Jews by Spain were Middle Eastern as were the Israelites or if instead in an earlier century initially were converts

Lacados were Portuguese men, not resembling West Africans who made themselves friendly with African Chiefs and their cultures, married African women, later having mixed offspring and served as middle men trading slaves and other goods between African chiefs and Europeans
Many were Jews—often New Christians
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

So basically all the sources and historical references are lying, simply because you do not want to accept the information.

Yawn
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

Oh so now it's because the "lighting is different". Lighting doesn't change the appearancr images that significantly and I don't think it's a coincidence that the reconstructed images created by an artist (with the yellow/orange skin) looks exactly like the images you have been posting.

---

How would you describe the skin tone here?

---

Back to the topic.

For comparison, here are real skin tones. Where would you put them?


 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

According to a firsthand account of the invading arabs in 641 AD Egypt, the Israelites could not be told apart from the Ethiopians and Nubians, which are black "sub-saharan" africans.

It's funny to see you try to come up with all of these bogus excuses, I'm barely scratching the surface. Keep pushing and watch how silly I make you look.

From an original document of the Coptic Church:

"Know that the land of Egypt, when the mussulmans entered it, was full of Christians, but divided among themselves in two sects, both as to race and religion... ...The other portion was the whole people of Egypt, who were called Qibt, and were of mixed descent; among whom one could not distinguish Copt from Abyssinian, Nubian or Israelite; and they were all Jacobites."

"A Short History of the Copts and of Their Church" by The Rev. S.C. Malan, M.A., page 72 (1873) D. Nutt

https://books.google.com/books/about/A_Short_History_of_the_Copts_and_of_Thei.html?id=ybXUAAAAMAAJ
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@Ish Geber

It's hard to tell with what photo
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

I've provided multiple sources stating this. That black Jews were banished from Spain/Portugal to West Africa and then subsequently caught up in the transatlantic slave trade to America. I've even provided a source from Cambridge literally stating the fact that Negroes who were Jews were targeted specifically for slavery in America.

---

You don't have the ability to distinguish an author speculating from and author stating a fact backed by evidence. You have no concept of what evidence even is.

Most Jews that were expelled from Spain did not resemble West Africans.

---

Lololol, enjoy:

"A remarkable fact in the history of loango (WEST AFRICA), in the empire of congo is, that the country, according to a statement which was fully credited by Oldendorp (a European missionary from the 1700s), himself a writer of most correct judgement and unimpeachable veracity, contains many Jews settled in it, who retain their religious rites and the distinct habits which keep them isolated from other nations. Though this seperated from the African population, they (the Jews) are black, and resemble the other negroes in every respect as of physical character. It is probably in allusion to this case that Pennington (1827), in his text book says, the descendants of a colony of Jews originally from Judea, settled on the coast of Africa, are black."

"A Tribute for the Negro" by Wilson Armistead, page 65-66 (1848) W. Irwin; American agent, W. Harned, New York

https://books.google.com/books/about/A_Tribute_for_the_Negro.html?id=YCGLzSxVSsIC
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Are you sure about your identity and people's history?
Have you studied it and taught it to your people?
Discussed it and picked it apart with other scholars?

You are the one who is unsure. Don'y xfer it to me.

I take no responsibility for your distortion of my words.

I told you to ask me for clarification and expansion.

I cannot clarify or expand on what originates from your imagination.

What do you feign to not understand about al-Murabitûn
suppressing the last Jewish states from my part of Africa 900 yrs ago?

What's not registering in your noggin regarding
al-Maghili (a'a) persecutions leading to Jews
in the Sahel/Savannah being oppressed and
enslaved?

And oh that damning document not 200 yrs old from
somewhere between the R Niger to L Tschad rigorously
forbidding the sale of negro Jews. Find it yet?
Go on do what you're the best at. Mine that data, mine that data♪
Hunwick is the modern who's published it most recently
though his own bias against the reality of Jews in the
north of Nigeria made him write all kinds of excuses
why a learned international commerce chain sultan
couldn't know what a real Jew is like that djele
description by a Portugal you cut&pasted.

Proof schmoof. Whatever's shown you no matter from where
will never meet your contrived standards of what is proof.
Nothing is proof unless published by a modern Euro or Arab.
It's the old Simon Sez game played by tenured negro academicians.
If Simon doesn't say so it's nokay, Black publications don't count.


I don't have to prove anything to you or any others here.
What I choose to contribute or wisely withhold is my biz.


For those who are respectful or do not hurl hateful
epithets I have PMed them sources for their own
dissection. Do you two think the 'anti-semitic'
scorn you heap on Taz is not equally a slap in
the face to all African blacks who are Jews
regardless Taz is a Hebrew Israelite not a Jew?

no. You don't want to learn. You want to bash
the remnant of Israel scattered to western Africa
since Rome quashed Jewish Libya some 1800 yrs ago.

But I don't debate. I educate.
Why die of thirst o horse when I've led you to water?


And what did you discover when trying to find that
snippet of a quote I bolded last page?

Will it lead you to further discoveries like the
white Jews have done these past 24 years since I
introduced them to the karboeger cemetery in Suriname and the fact
of bani Israil in the Sahel/Savanna of the western
Sudan ie Blacksland Negrosland.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

Jews in West Africa were specifically targeted for the transatlantic slave trade. Our ancestors were in fact Jews and knew who they were prior to the transatlantic slave trade.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

Yes, 'Hebrews' were targeted for the external slave trade.

---

Are you sure about that, that we can look at various books on the slave trade to America and they say Black Hebrews or Jews were the primary group taken as slaves and that they were preferred or easier to acquire?
Are there any slave ledger documenting this?
Are there any slave era writing in America talking about Black Hebrews?
I know a certain percentage of slaves were Muslim but of Black Hebrews, even if not the main group is their any shipping document of them?

---

.


BTW
I do appreciate you telling me my writing style incomprehensible to many.
Since then I try to be less cryptic though my teaching style is leave
the student difficult 'clues' so they'll go and teach themselves more.

I hope we can continue to collaborate for you've done that on a level few have.
I'm sure the results have enriched Africana students wary of black uber alles
ethnocentric pandering.
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@Ish Geber

It's hard to tell with what photo

---

There are 8 skin tones. It's all about the closest.


Here are some other examples.






 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@Ish Geber

It's hard to tell with what photo

---

There are 8 skin tones. It's all about the closest.


Here are some other examples.

---

I would have to say this one
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Black Saracens with the Magen David..?

The Saracen Arabians in Antioch (12th century) are besieged by crusaders in this medieval depiction.




http://afroasiatics.blogspot.com/2016/01/fear-of-blackness-series-part-i-guide.html
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
[QB] Are you sure about your identity and people's history?
Have you studied it and taught it to your people?
Discussed it and picked it apart with other scholars?

You are the one who is unsure. Don'y xfer it to me.

I take no responsibility for your distortion of my words.

I told you to ask me for clarification and expansion.

I cannot clarify or expand on what originates from your imagination.

What do you feign to not understand about al-Murabitûn
suppressing the last Jewish states from my part of Africa 900 yrs ago?

---

You are using this less known word now so people may not know who you refer to, Almoravids aka al-Murabitûn. It is my understanding that Jews were doing alright under them but were oppressed or more oppressed when the Almohads, another Moroccan Berber group took over al-Murabitûn territory in the Mahgreb 1147 but the time period we are talking about is the years immediately prior to 1462, perhaps this corresponds to in time period to the Marinid dynasty, successors to the Almohad
1244-1465


But apart from which particular berber rulers were in control the Mahreb and al-Andalous
and Jews under there rule are we to assume that Jews in Spain and Lisbon at the time are the same Jews who had been in Morocco 900 yrs ago?
Is there evidence clarifying if these are the same people?

jump to around 100 year after the 1462 expulsion to 1570 because there is this painting



Light skinned Jews here, dressed in black in Lisbon. What does this painting tell us?

Does it tell us that around the time of the 1462 expulsion that the Jews of Portugal were not the berber Jews if the Mahreb?
Or maybe there were some berber Jews in Portugal also in 1461, 60, 59, etc but who were most of the Jews in Portugal at the time?
Because there is proximity to Africa and with a short distance across the Mediterranean Sea that does not necessarily mean their ancestors were Jews of the Maghreb. They could have been or the ancestors of the Jews of Portugal in the mid 15th century had come there from somewhere east of them, coming from a route along the south of Europe, and before it Turkey and then eventually beginning in the Levant.
They could even be the Jewish ancestors of the Jews in the Mahreb
> or the reverse
> or not directly related without close common ancestors post-destruction of the temple
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
^^^

what about these guys in the rest of that picture


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

Oh so now it's because the "lighting is different". Lighting doesn't change the appearancr images that significantly and I don't think it's a coincidence that the reconstructed images created by an artist (with the yellow/orange skin) looks exactly like the images you have been posting.

---

How would you describe the skin tone here?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@Ish Geber

It's hard to tell with what photo

---

Ish Gebor put up a photo labeling various skin tones such names as "carob" and "nutmeg" "hazelnut" "heavenly honey"

these various food an spice names are not more common color names.

What is the basic color of the skin you see in the picture above? Here is is again copied by itself into the circle >>


and why do you say it is hard to tell by the photo?




^^ this is the color of the neck copied mechanically into the circle below it

_______________________________________________________________




^^ this is the color of the center of his cheek mechanically (digitally sampled) and put into that circle above him. I didn't do color matching by eye. It's the exact color copied into that circle. Against a white background it looks slightly different but that is just optical illusion
we are looking at orange here, perhaps "dark orange"
no need for fancy names like "tangerine goddess" etc
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

The Chafariz d'El-Rey (King's Fountain) in the Alfama District, Lisbon

^ So here we have the full painting, you can see the part that was detailed in my previous post on the left the group of figure right above what appears to be a man in red bringing a bale of hay from the dock


[/QB][/QUOTE]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
^^^

what about these guys in the rest of that picture

---

João de SáPanasco

The man n the horse is believed to be João de SáPanasco (1524 – 1567), who was gradually promoted from court jester to eventually becoming a knight of the prestigious order of Saint James, which is evident from the red cross of the order of Santiago embroidered on his cloak. He was awarded that honour by the king in 1535, when he was part of the victorious military campaign over the Turks.
The Order of Santiago , also known as the Order of St. James of the Sword, is a religious and military order founded in the 12th century. It owes its name to the Patron Saint of Spain, "Santiago" (St. James the Greater). Its initial objective was to protect the pilgrim of St. James' Way, to defend Christendom and to remove the Muslim Moors from the Iberian Peninsula. Entrance was not however restricted to nobles of Spain exclusively, and so many of her members have been prominent Catholic Europeans in general. The Order of Santiago is one of the most renowned military orders in the history of the world, its insignia being particularly recognizable and abundant in Western art
In its beginnings, entrance into the Order was not difficult, but after mid-thirteenth century it became more complicated.

Once the Reconquest was finalized, a candidate who wished to join the Order of Santiago must have proved in his first four last names that he, his parents, and his grandparents were of noble descent by blood and not by privilege, and had never worked in manual or industrial labor.

Many classes of people were permanently disqualified from membership of the order due to their origins or circumstances. They included the following categories and their descendants: Jews, Muslims, heretics, converts to Christianity, or a mixture of these, no matter how far removed. Also included were people who had been punished for acts against the Catholic faith; had been an attorney, moneylender, notary public, retail merchant, or had worked where they lived or would have lived from their trade; had been dishonoured, had neglected the laws of honor and executed any act not proper for a perfect gentleman, or who lacked means of support. The prospective member then had to live three months in the galleys and reside for a month in the monastery to learn the Rule.

Later the King and the Council of the Orders abolished many of these prerequisites.

Joao de Sa Panasco, the man belived to be on the horse in the painting was an African from the Congo in the service of king John III of Portugal. His began his career as a court jester to entertain the king and Queen Catherine, with jokes and parodies. Although he enjoyed the protection of kings, Joao de Sa also received insults by other courtiers. However his status as both an outsider made him an invaluable Informant to the king. In 1535, he accompanied the kings brother, the Infante Luis, Duke of Beja, in North Africa, where he was part of the Holy Roman Emperor Charles' military campaign to conquer Tunis from the Ottomans. An important victory over the Turks made the king of Portugal reward João de Sá-exceptional honors: he was eventually accepted into the prestigious order of St. James.

The resulting massacre of the city left an estimated 30,000 dead. Barbarossa managed to flee to Algiers with a troop of several thousand Turks. Muley Hasan was restored to his throne

The Ottomans recaptured the city in 1574. However the Ottoman governors of Tunis were semi-autonomous Beys who acted as privateers against Christian shipping. Consequently, raiding in the Mediterranean continued until the suppression of the Barbary Pirates in the early 19th Century and the subsequent French invasion leading to the creation of French Algeria in 1830, and the establishment of a protectorate over Tunisia in 1881.



Portrait of Mulay Ahmad
Date Created: circa 1535 - 1536
Jan Cornelisz. Vermeyen

“Moulay Ahmad” was a Hafsid ruler of Ifriqiya from 1543 to 1569.
The province of Ifriqiya was created in 703 CE when the Umayyads seized "Africa" from the Byzantine Empire. Although Islam existed throughout the province there were still considerable religious tension and conflict between the invading Arabs and the native Berbers.

By the time the Ottoman Empire rose to power in the 14th and 15th centuries, there had been Jewish communities established throughout the region. The Ottoman Empire lasted from the early 14th century until the end of World War I and covered parts of Southeastern Europe, Anatolia, and much of the Middle East. The experience of Jews in the Ottoman Empire is particularly significant because the region "provided a principal place of refuge for Jews driven out of western Europe by massacres and persecution".

Although the status of the Jews in the Ottoman Empire may have been exaggerated, it is undeniable that some tolerance was enjoyed. Under the millet system, non-Muslims were organized as autonomous communities on the basis of religion (viz. Orthodox millet, Armenian millet, etc.). In the framework of the millet Jews had a considerable amount of administrative autonomy and were represented by the Hakham Bashi, the Chief Rabbi. There were no restrictions in the professions Jews could practice analogous to those common in Western Christian countries.[4] There were restrictions, however, regarding the areas Jews could live in or work, which were similar to the restrictions placed on Ottoman subjects of other religions.[5] Like all non-Muslims, Jews had to pay the harac ("head tax") and faced other restrictions in clothing, horse riding, army service etc. Furthermore, although many of these restrictions "were decreed [not many of them]...were always enforced"

Some Jews who reached high positions in the Ottoman court and administration include Mehmed II's minister of Finance ("Defterdar") Hekim Yakup Pasa, his Portuguese physician Moses Hamon, Murad II's physician Is'hak Pasha and Abraham de Castro, who was the master of the mint in Egypt.

With minor exceptions, the Jews under Hafsid domination benefited from the prevalence of cultural and commercial florescence. They traded in the Mediterranean with their co-religionists, notably in Italy, as well as with local merchants who constituted part of the Christian minority. Ifriqiyah's Jewry had been reinforced in the late 15th and early 16th centuries by an influx of Jews who were expelled from Spain. The military incursion of the Spaniards and Portuguese – the former oppressors of the Jews – into Ifriqiyah in the mid-16th century sowed panic among the members of the Jewish community, prompting many of them to flee from the larger cities into the desert. Their anxieties were short-lived, however. The conquest of the region by the Ottoman Turks in the latter half of the 16th century significantly improved their socio-economic and political status once again.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
The two little dark dudes in front of him dressed like the other Jews.. how about them?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
What have you done but repost what I told you
about al-Murabitûn and al-Muwahhidun relations
with Israels in Mauritania to al-Andalus to
Sirte and now you call it your understanding?

Oh yeah? Tell me then the names of the Israels
city states and who their most protective and
offensive militant force was?


Africans aren't pets to be named by owners.
Anyone unwilling to learn and use the proper
names of peoples as printed in serious studies
just wants to maintain a Yourowpeein worldview.
Get it?

And we see that is your objective as you once
again post your preferred artwork of a famous
Maghrebi mulay. Don't bother me, please. We
went toe to toe on this in some depth. Don't
chase your tail expecting me to follow up
monkey chase the weasel style. I'll just pop
the blood sucker with thread bumps.


Move it forward or reply to the tyros.
I'm the satellite beaming your dish


=-=-=

Of course theLioness is intentionally playing obtuse.
Oh this cat psychology of toying. Who else is meant
but the two guys dressed similar to,, but with different
covers than those earlier noted as Jews by her?

What to make of the art on Srnan showing Akan(?)
tailors and a Portugal Jew merchant shop where the
latter are not complexioned like the Lisbon dock
painting?


=-=-=


How does one conclude Andalusian Jewry has no Maghreb Jewish roots?
By not knowing the history of Israel's diaspora in al Aqsa, that's how.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 




the two figures on the far right by the dog , I don't know who they are. They are the size of boys, looking 3 feet tall. One has a hat resembling the same as the horse rider João de SáPanasco they are in front of. They both have swords. Are they his sons? Are they adult men who were also of the Order of Santiago? It is unknown as far as I know
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
What have you done but repost what I told you
about al-Murabitûn and al-Muwahhidun relations
with Israel in Mauritania and call it your
understanding?

---

I did not post about relations with Israel in Mauritania. I don't know about that. Jews in Portugal I was discussing.
And separately Jews of the Maghreb prior to Spanish Jews' expulsion.

I don't use terms like al-Muwahhidun without also Almohads eve if the later is less authentic because if the layman is reading in here Almohad they might more easily recognize and realize who was being discussed. But you can call them what you want, the al-Muwahhidun Muslims who oppressed their Jewish population, "owned" in a sense
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:


And we see that is ypur objective as you once
again post your preferred artwork of a famous
Maghrebi mulay.

---

I posted him again and finding the picture again, the one created when he was alive. I posted it because it is a great portrait and now he is in this conversation spoken about in relation to Jews in the region and the discussion of the horse rider in a painting of Lisbon of Mulay Ahmad's time roughly and related military confrontations
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

לאל̈ת אלחאירין‎
The Guide for the Perplexed

14th Century - Jewish Star on Manuscript
Stars of David on a page from a 14th century manuscript of "Moreh Nevuchim" (Guide to the Perplexed), there is an illustration of people standing before a figure seated in a chair with Stars of David and holding a book. This figure is assumed to be Aristotle.

The Guide for the Perplexed (Arabic: دلالة الحائرين‎, Dalālat al-ḥā’irīn, דלאל̈ת אלחאירין‎; Hebrew translation, Moreh Nevukhim Hebrew: מורה נבוכים‎) is a work of theology by Maimonides. It seeks to reconcile Aristotelianism with Rabbinical Jewish theology by finding rational explanations for many events in the text.

It was written in Classical Arabic using the Hebrew alphabet in the form of a three-part letter to his student, Rabbi Joseph ben Judah of Ceuta, the son of Rabbi Judah, and is the main source of Maimonides' philosophical views, as opposed to his opinions on Jewish law. A small minority believe the Guide for the Perplexed was written by an anonymous heretic and not Maimonides, most notably amongst these is the revered 18th-century scholar Jacob Emden.

Since many of the philosophical concepts, such as his view of theodicy and the relationship between philosophy and religion, are relevant beyond strictly Jewish theology, it has been the work most commonly associated with Maimonides in the non-Jewish world and it is known to have influenced several major non-Jewish philosophers.[1] Following its publication, "almost every philosophic work for the remainder of the Middle Ages cited, commented on, or criticized Maimonides' views."[2] Within Judaism, the Guide became widely popular, with many Jewish communities requesting copies of the manuscript, but also quite controversial, with some communities limiting its study or banning it altogether.

The Guide for the Perplexed was originally written in about 1190 by Maimonides in Classical Arabic using the Hebrew alphabet. It was first translated in 1204 into Hebrew by a contemporary of Maimonides, Samuel ibn Tibbon.

Book One

A page from a 14th-century manuscript of the Guide. The figure seated on the chair with Stars of David is thought to be Aristotle.
The book begins with Maimonides’ thesis against anthropomorphism. In the Bible, one can find many expressions that refer to God in human terms, for instance the “hand of God”. Maimonides was strongly against what he believed to be a heresy present in unlearned Jews who then assume God to be corporeal (or even possessing positive characteristics).

Also, he made a systematic exposition on Maaseh Bereishit and Merkabah mysticism, works of Jewish mysticism regarding the theology of creation from the Book of Genesis and the chariot passage from the Book of Ezekiel – these being the two main mystical texts in the Tanakh. This analysis occurs in the third book, and from this perspective, the issues raised in the first two books are there to provide background and a progression in the mystical and philosophical knowledge required to ponder the climax.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guide_for_the_Perplexed
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
What? You think I'm playing w/u.
Stop replying to me if you going
to deny what you've written. I
got no tolerance for a chain of
- yes you said it, no i didn't -
inanity.

You said it you meant it you regret it.
You can retract it or go play in the
sandbox.

Do you prefer that or persuing knowledge
by accepting precisions same as I do cos
out to LEARN not to win debates.


OK. You keep it honest with me
and we can break from the past.
I acknowledge the steps you've
made to soften your Yourowpeein
ethnocentrism.


Also, do NOT use incomplete version
of an unfinished post or one with
typos. Look at a post again before
submitting a reply. It may have
been finished while you were
typing an answer to it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
What have you done but repost what I told you
about al-Murabitûn and al-Muwahhidun relations
with Israel in Mauritania and call it your
understanding?

---

I did not post about relations with Israel in Mauritania. I don't know about that. Jews in Portugal I was discussing.
And separately Jews of the Maghreb prior to Spanish Jews' expulsion.

I don't use terms like al-Muwahhidun without also Almohads eve if the later is less authentic because if the layman is reading in here Almohad they might more easily recognize and realize who was being discussed. But you can call them what you want, the al-Muwahhidun Muslims who oppressed their Jewish population, "owned" in a sense

---

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
OK. You keep it honest with me and
we can break from past approaches.
I acknowledge the steps you've
made to soften your Yourowpeein
ethnocentrism.


What's so good about today is most
anyone can research with the press
of a button materials that took me
from 1973 to 1991 hitting library
after library bookseller after
bookseller to find or buy a
book with even just one
pertinent sentence.


I'm pleased so-called mainstream
(a code word for Eurocentricity)
white Jewish researchers have
caught my pass and ran 23 yards
with it since emailing people like
Richard Lobban, interviewing guest
speakers at the Mother Cong like
R' Merle Serels or the grandson
of the last Chief Rabbi of Mahdi
era Sudan and communicating online
via Kulanu and a host of Sepharade
yahoogroups.

No longer available on the 'net is
the essay I wrote explaining via
Kulanu that the Six Pointed Star
is not Jewish and the Seven Branch
Menora was the logo of Jewry. Islamic
architecture and flags display it with
no reference to Judaism nor Jews nor
bani Israil. I also wrote on the diff
twixt the original Israelite kippah
and Europe's Ashkenazi yarmulke.

I remember laughing with an Amazigh nationalist
Jewess about the first air in the nose Sephardi
Tahor's camel rider North Africa roots. They
overlook those in favor of direct peopling from
ancient Judah else Roman Italy. A Sephardita Tahorita,
who is saudades Sepharad, also in on the conversation
had to smile and agree.


Nobody took me by the hand and spoonfed
me that al-Murabitun is Almoravides. Any
halfway serious student of Africana knows
that. I couldn't give a rootie poot for
master debaters to incompetent to learn
somethings on their own for themselves.
I don't debate. I educate. Erect no gate

I strongly suggest you learn terminology
that will allow you to read sources like
Nehemia Levtzion and them. You can use
what you want to on ES but try stepping
it up a notch when replying to me or go
back to sing Moslem instead of Muslim.
Get it yet? Suit yourself. Grow or stagnate.

Forward ever
Backward never
Shake off colonialist labels.
African descent people need
learn African spellings downpat.
Even modern academia concerned
with accuracy do. Imitate them.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
What have you done but repost what I told you
about al-Murabitûn and al-Muwahhidun relations
with Israel in Mauritania and call it your
understanding?

---

I did not post about relations with Israel in Mauritania. I don't know about that. Jews in Portugal I was discussing.
And separately Jews of the Maghreb prior to Spanish Jews' expulsion.

I don't use terms like al-Muwahhidun without also Almohads eve if the later is less authentic because if the layman is reading in here Almohad they might more easily recognize and realize who was being discussed. But you can call them what you want, the al-Muwahhidun Muslims who oppressed their Jewish population, "owned" in a sense

---

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Lol @ the troll ignoring the last 2 historical references I posted because they debunk her false worldviews.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Lol @ the troll ignoring the last 2 historical references I posted because they debunk her false worldviews.

---

you seem to think people that don't agree with you, that do more research than you are "trolls"
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

You made false claims and the false claims you made were directly refuted and debunked word for word with factual information from historical references.

That's why you didn't reply to the last posts I made when I quoted you. Yet you keep spamming and trying to push a false narrative.

Glad to see I'm not the only one calling you out for your dishonesty and deceptive behavior.

At this point I refuse to continue taking you seriously any longer.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
As shown it's nothing but a blank
The poses of near all Mulays are
the playing card deck king. In
the case of this latest fiasco
the pose is that of bishop card
later replaced by Knave/Jack.

Does any serious student
of history suppose even
one mulay ever sat and
posed for a Rumi artist?

But I suppose I must thank you for
dragging in a mulay contemporaneous
to the Lisbon docks painting --
even if fanciful like this one of
a mulay from the Atlantic coast
kingdom of Maroc probably is too.
Def no playing card pose though.


closer to the

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:


And we see that is ypur objective as you once
again post your preferred artwork of a famous
Maghrebi mulay.

---

I posted him again and finding the picture again, the one created when he was alive. I posted it because it is a great portrait and now he is in this conversation spoken about in relation to Jews in the region and the discussion of the horse rider in a painting of Lisbon of Mulay Ahmad's time roughly and related military confrontations

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:


Does any serious student
of history suppose even
one mulay ever sat and
posed for a Rumi artist?

---

supposing doesn't matter either you know the circumstances of the Vermeyen portrait or you don't
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
These are good because idea of how the Jewish
publisher saw those around him looked, real,
idolized, or an imagination as writers on
Afr Jewry like to throw around about
our views on ourselves.

Me? After using R' Moshe bar Maimon's Guide for
the Perplexed (heavily annotated Yale edition)
and the multi-volume Mishneh Torah, I'd say ol
Moishe rationalized the supernatural for an age
in Spain that had centuries of Islamic science
behind it. S&P Jewry had liberal arts & sciences
curriculum for children and youths education.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/50/The_Perplexing_Nature_of_the_Guide_for_the_Perplexed


Got any imgs from the famous magnificent
illustrated Haggada, the one place Jews
are allowed to have pictures associated
with sacred ritual?

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

לאל̈ת אלחאירין‎
The Guide for the Perplexed

14th Century - Jewish Star on Manuscript
Stars of David on a page from a 14th century manuscript of "Moreh Nevuchim" (Guide to the Perplexed), there is an illustration of people standing before a figure seated in a chair with Stars of David and holding a book. This figure is assumed to be Aristotle.

The Guide for the Perplexed (Arabic: دلالة الحائرين‎, Dalālat al-ḥā’irīn, דלאל̈ת אלחאירין‎; Hebrew translation, Moreh Nevukhim Hebrew: מורה נבוכים‎) is a work of theology by Maimonides. It seeks to reconcile Aristotelianism with Rabbinical Jewish theology by finding rational explanations for many events in the text.

It was written in Classical Arabic using the Hebrew alphabet in the form of a three-part letter to his student, Rabbi Joseph ben Judah of Ceuta, the son of Rabbi Judah, and is the main source of Maimonides' philosophical views, as opposed to his opinions on Jewish law. A small minority believe the Guide for the Perplexed was written by an anonymous heretic and not Maimonides, most notably amongst these is the revered 18th-century scholar Jacob Emden.

Since many of the philosophical concepts, such as his view of theodicy and the relationship between philosophy and religion, are relevant beyond strictly Jewish theology, it has been the work most commonly associated with Maimonides in the non-Jewish world and it is known to have influenced several major non-Jewish philosophers.[1] Following its publication, "almost every philosophic work for the remainder of the Middle Ages cited, commented on, or criticized Maimonides' views."[2] Within Judaism, the Guide became widely popular, with many Jewish communities requesting copies of the manuscript, but also quite controversial, with some communities limiting its study or banning it altogether.

The Guide for the Perplexed was originally written in about 1190 by Maimonides in Classical Arabic using the Hebrew alphabet. It was first translated in 1204 into Hebrew by a contemporary of Maimonides, Samuel ibn Tibbon.

Book One

A page from a 14th-century manuscript of the Guide. The figure seated on the chair with Stars of David is thought to be Aristotle.
The book begins with Maimonides’ thesis against anthropomorphism. In the Bible, one can find many expressions that refer to God in human terms, for instance the “hand of God”. Maimonides was strongly against what he believed to be a heresy present in unlearned Jews who then assume God to be corporeal (or even possessing positive characteristics).

Also, he made a systematic exposition on Maaseh Bereishit and Merkabah mysticism, works of Jewish mysticism regarding the theology of creation from the Book of Genesis and the chariot passage from the Book of Ezekiel – these being the two main mystical texts in the Tanakh. This analysis occurs in the third book, and from this perspective, the issues raised in the first two books are there to provide background and a progression in the mystical and philosophical knowledge required to ponder the climax.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guide_for_the_Perplexed

---

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Mawley Ahmad of Tunis by Rubens after Vermeyer



Is he also the black skinned Magi
in nativity scenes of old Europe?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Again

Does any serious student
of history suppose even
one mulay ever sat and
posed for a Rumi artist?


Either you know the history or you don't.
Either you know Islamic rules regarding
images taken seriously by African Muslims
or you don't.

Need I go on?


So produce evidence that any Christian European
artist ws ever even within 100 yards of any mulay.
You couldn't do it 9 yrs ago. Can you do it now?
Either you know that or you don't.

I'd like to see what either you know or don't know
or should say can document via your researches. I'm
ready to learn since all I don't know can fill up
several hundred university libraries at least.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:


Does any serious student
of history suppose even
one mulay ever sat and
posed for a Rumi artist?

---

supposing doesn't matter either you know the circumstances of the Vermeyen portrait or you don't

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Charles V went to Tunis in person to restore Mulay Hassan to power over his dominions, rather than to conquer the region and take it for himself.
When the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V set out to attack Tunis in
1535, he took with him a number of artists, chroniclers and musicians, including
Jan Cornelisz Vermeyen.
Hasan ' s period of renewed tenure as vassal of Charles v was shortlived , for in 1542 his equally cruel son Mulay Ahmad blinded and deposed him.


King Mulay Hasan and His Retinue at a Repast in Tunis
ca. 1535


The Conquest of Tunis tapestries comprising of twelve monumental panels were the single most important tapestry set ever commissioned by the Habsburg court. These enormous tapestries commemorate - like a woven panorama - the fame of the Habsburg dynasty, celebrating Emperor Charles V as defender of the Catholic faith, and glorifying his victories over Turkish and Moorish forces at La Goleta and Tunis in 1535. The emperor with great ostentation ordered the Flemish painter, Jan Cornelisz Vermeyen, to accompany his expedition. He was to sketch the people, events and landscapes first hand and record for posterity in countless drawings and engravings Charles V’s victories in North Africa.



http://tapestries.flandesenhispania.org/imagenes-global/tapices/serie5-madrid/05.jpg

http://tapestries.flandesenhispania.org/index.php/The_Conquest_of_Tunis_series#
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Dang, do we really need see horse ass(hole)?


=-=-=


I vended Red Black and Green flags one MLK day
at the Capitol. Never saw the Prez. Awaiting
proof Vermeyen got within 100 yards of Ahmad.


This large etching is a portrait of Mulay Ahmad, the future king of Tunis. The battle rages in the background, where Turkish and Imperial soldiers clash before the ruins of the aqueduct of ancient Carthage. Vermeyen portrayed the prince with a noble gaze, holding a sword in his right hand. At upper right, he painted the royal coat of arms with an inscription in Arabic: ´There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet´. The exotic nature of this kind of portrait appealed to the European public. Pictures of Turkish sultans were also widely available at the time.


More about the Reubens full color copy of the lost Vermeyen.

https://issuu.com/the-walters-art-museum/docs/singlepages3429_african_presence_10/107
https://issuu.com/the-walters-art-museum/docs/singlepages3429_african_presence_10/109
https://issuu.com/the-walters-art-museum/docs/singlepages3429_african_presence_10/114


The Walters Art Museum refused to put its life
on the line by attesting Ahmad sat for Vermeyen.
They admit to not even knowing at first but then
progressively present speculation as next best
thing to fact.

- probably from life
- While there he also apparently
- it is very likely
- it is conceivable


This is beyond scholarly caution.
What it does is indicate cluelessness.
Much more honest than asserting the
unprovable guesswork is fact.
 

---

Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Ish Geber:
The issue is that often the translations have a different meaning from the original intend as an allegory.

---

A Jewish or Christian interpretation is that there are some allegories in the bible.

example,

Matthew 5:14-16
KJV

14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
_______________________________

The light of a candle is symbolic here, not supposed to be a commentary on the physics of a candle flame. It saying if you feel the spirit of God don't keep it hidden, let it be known to people

However an atheist might say there is much more allegory, apart from some possible bits and pieces of actual historical events, that most of the bible is mythology, didn't really happen. It is almost all allegory, symbolic stories and that God is an allegory.

However Jews, Christians and Muslims would say no, God is real, not an allegory and their holy books are are not mainly allegory and myth. There is some like the papabiles but most is not
_________________________________________

an opinion:

The Torah Is Not an Allegory

https://www.thetorah.com/article/the-torah-is-not-an-allegory

---

.The above is wrong. The word allegory means something else. You cannot go and make up your own definitions.

---

^^I don't think Ish is making up a definition. Some parts of the Torah
are only understood allegorically, some literally. Ish basically is correct.
Below is commentary from well known Torah scholar Friedman on Exodus 24
that seems to back up what Ish says: "The form of heaven" in relation to
sapphire is clearly allegorical. They were not actually sitting down on a
pavement of sapphire extending up into heaven. Many of the metaphorical
or allegorical teachings are only understood by adherents of various faiths
or students/teachers knowledgeable about these faiths or key aspects.

Some things also cannot take place in a material world. The "Day of Judgment"
or time of accountability for the motives, deeds and thoughts done in
this life, predicted by many faith traditions for example, will be taken
up in an afterlife in which all deeds and thoughts and motives are manifest.
This obviously cannot apply to the present human condition where thoughts,
motives and often deeds can often be hidden. A big question in many
traditions is how to be ready for the day of accountability (if any).
The Egyptians had a series of confessions among other things.

King's "I Have A Dream" speech says "Let freedom ring." Obviously people
knowledgeable or in faith re the black gospel tradition or Bible did
not expect a giant booming voice from space saying "Let freedom ring" to
suddenly echo from "snow-capped Rockies of Colorado" to the
"molehills of Mississippi." King's words are obviously allegorical,
but PARTLY in the literal sense, they did come true with the passage of
the Civil Rights Act and subsequent enforcement and follow up activism
in removing legal Jim Crow. And both literally and allegorically, there is
still work remaining. The two things can be present at the same time.

Literal &allegorical can be present at the same time or sequentially and both
can feel equally real. The anger of a significant other cheated on for example
can symbolically "burn like fire" and the effect can indeed morally
or spiritually seem like a scorching flame, even though there is no
"literal" flame burning house or skin. The same in many faith traditions
are held to apply on the day of reckoning, on the other side. There is no
literal flame,to burn literal flesh, but the moral and spiritual weight
or effect can be likened, using limited human language to "flame."

------------------------------------------------------------


^^Re Exodus 24,it is clear the usage of "sapphire" is symbolic or allegorical not a literal
pavement. It is "THE FORM OF HEAVEN" denoting a vision or epiphany not
actual brick. Says well known Jewish Torah scholar Richard Eliott Friedman:


"24:10-11. And they saw God. "¦ And they envisioned God. Some have taken this to mean that they literally, physically see God. But, as Ibn Ezra properly observed, the verb for "they saw"� (Hebrew r'h) is also used to refer to seeing in a vision, as when Isaiah says, "I saw the Lord sitting on a throne"� (Isa 6:1). This meaning of "they saw"� here is confirmed by the parallel use in v. 11 of the word "envisioned"� (Hebrew zh), which regularly means to have a vision (as, for example in Isa 1:1). Also, this is consistent with the idea that no one ever sees the actual form of God except Moses on a single occasion. This idea is understood throughout the Tanak, without exception. (On the distinction between vision and regular experience, see The Hidden Face of God, pp. 17-18, 62-63.)

Exodus 24:11

11And He did not put out His hand to the chiefs of the children of Israel. And they envisioned God. And they ate and drank.

24:11. He did not put out His hand. Those who take the passage to mean that this group actually sees God understand "He did not put out His hand"� to mean that God does not kill them for seeing God. But the text says "He did not put out His hand to the chiefs "¦"� The phrase "to put out one's hand"� followed by the preposition "to"� (Hebrew 'el) never refers to killing in the Tanak. (When referring to killing, the phrase occurs with the preposition b.) And, in any case, there are other cases of the expression of God putting out a hand to humans that are meant positively. In Ps 144:7, this refers to God saving someone. And there is an even closer parallel in Jer 1:9, where it takes place in a vision and refers to God reaching out to touch Jeremiah's mouth to enable him to speak. Here in Exodus, perhaps it means that in their vision they see but are not touched by God."

-Commentary on the Torah with a New English Translation 2001. Richard Elliott Friedman


https://books.google.com/books?id=A3-0DiGU9_sC&printsec=frontcover&dq=friedman+commentary+torah&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiu8qampb3uAhXZB80KHYKUCM0Q6AEwAHoECAYQ Ag#v=onepage&q=friedman%20commentary%20torah&f=false
===================================================================

^^But many other faith traditions describe a world of beauty, bliss and
light once the literal flesh sequence is gone. Indeed many Near Death
Experiences describe such a realm, where the surrounding are like unto
that beautiful sapphire.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Mawley Ahmad of Tunis by Rubens after Vermeyer




Is he also the black skinned Magi
in nativity scenes of old Europe?

---

^ painted in 1609

Mulay Ahmad had died of the plague at Termini Imerese (Sicily) in 1575.



Portrait of Mulay Ahmad
Date Created: circa 1535 - 1536
Jan Cornelisz. Vermeyen

Here we have a portrait done while he was alive. There had also been a painting at the time by the same artist but has never been found.
So as for the color it could have been like the later Rubens painting or not but we the same likeness.
It is not hard to believe Mulay Ahamd sat for this portrait because it looks realistic and the physical features not stereotypical, it looks like a real particular person

His father was Mulay Hassan

In the summer of 1535, the Emperor Charles V (1500-1558) led an international crusade to Tunis to crush the Berber pirate Ottoman admiral Kheir-ed-Din Barbarossa. Charles V took with him historians and poets as well as a war-artist, Jan Cornelisz Vermeyen (1500-1559). Jan Cornelisz Vermeyen, Charles V's favourite court artist, is probably better known for the Tunis series. Vermeyen was one of the leading imperial portraitists of his time, as well as an important painter of religious subjects and a veritable etcher of genius.
______________________________

The Ottomans, however, were a different story. In the previous hundred years, their empire had tripled in size and was still growing, and the Spanish king could read a map just as well as Khair ad-Din. Little surprise then that Muley Hassan and Charles V should make common cause. In this case, geo politics trumped religion for Charles, and when the exiled sultan wrote to the Spanish monarch for help, Charles cordially addressed Muley Hassan as king and referred to Khair ad-Din as a hostis humani generis, “enemy to all people”—a distinction that classified him as a pirate and therefore beyond legal protection.
____________

Amphibious assaults are always risky and Charles was taking no chances. From Genoa, from Naples, from Sicily, he gathered a fleet of 400 ships and an army approaching 27,000 men and horse. On June 17, 1535, they landed near the twin towers of La Goletta in Tunis. Men wrestled the guns—“large, very beautiful, and in great number,” according to Guillaume de Montoiche, who accompanied Charles’s expedition—of the boat and toward the fort.

Some days in, Muley Hassan appeared at Charles’s camp, “of good stature, thick torso, yellow in color, truly manly,” a Spanish observer noted. Assuring the emperor of his good faith, he abased himself before Charles, kissing his hand and offering help. Not that he had much to give, and in the event, he gave very little. Charles was gracious, but material assistance would be superfluous—Charles had other plans for his new ally.

__________

Hassan watched with grim satisfaction—he felt his people had betrayed him. Tunis was again his to rule, but now as a vassal of Spain, and on Spain’s terms. There would be no more slaves from Charles’s empire. There would, however, be Spanish troops in charge of La Goletta, with Muley Hassan picking up the tab. The list went on, sounding very much like formal treaty of surrender, and Muley Hassan had no choice but to accept. In the Muslim world, he was all but friendless.

https://www.historynet.com/emperor-vs-pirate-tunis-1535.htm

Moulay Hussan deposed by his son Ahamad, the handsome man in the above portrait who blinded him for good measure, he went into exile and ended his days living on a miserable pension in Italy.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique

^^I don't think Ish is making up a definition. Some parts of the Torah
are only understood allegorically, some literally. Ish basically is correct.

---

I never said he made up the definition of an allegory. This is what he accused me of

he said

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

allegory (n.)
"figurative treatment of an unmentioned subject under the guise of another similar to it in some way," late 14c., from Old French allegorie (12c.), from Latin allegoria, from Greek allegoria "figurative language, description of one thing under the image of another," literally "a speaking about something else," from allos "another, different" (from PIE root *al- (1) "beyond") + agoreuein "speak openly, speak in the assembly," from agora "assembly" (see agora). Related: Allegorist

---

https://www.etymonline.com/word/allegory#etymonline_v_8169

---

Yes, fan allegory uses figurative metaphorical language , making a point by using mythological or symbolic stories and mythical made up imaginary events

My point was people that follow these various religions who go to church or synagogue or mosque do not see it in that way
They believe there are a small amount of allegorical parables in their holy book but the vast majority of stories, miracles etc. are real and that their holy books were dictated by a real being, God, to men who received his word directly and to his dictation on to scrolls

Try to tell any practicing Jew, Muslim or Christian "you would agree that the bible (Tanakh, Qu'ran) is just symbolic stories, a teaching tool"

and they will say no, God is real and the bible is real, there are some parables here and there but this is the word of the Most High God and a record of our past, present and prophesies that foretell our future

For instance, BHI believe that Deuteronomy predicted
specifically the actual Trans-Atlantic slave trade,
that this was no coincidence. It is prophecy fulfilled, God knowing exactly what would happen and inspiring men to record this future event in the bible

If you try to tell a believer in this that this is just a symbolic story in the bible written over 2,000 years ago with no foreknowledge of a real event that would take place in the future. They would tell you you are wring and that is exactly what it is, God knowing what happens in the future before it happiness and transmitting this knowledge to certain humans to write it down

See what I mean >>
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
According to world history, when did the contemporary jew-ish people ever lose their identity?

ISAIAH 65:15

"15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:"
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Uh-oh, play right time just ended.


Are you a donkey can only carry cut and pastes.
You can do analysis. Why play slick? You ain't.

I done told you Rubens copied Vermeyen.
Vermeyens oil of Ahmad was lost.
Splendid memory he must've had
to make a 'facs' etching.

Don't look now. Somebody never digested the Walters Art Museum pages.

Uh-huh yeah. Ahmad stood at Carthaginian ruins
warfare all around him AND took time out to sit
for a portrait while Barbarosa was at the gate
thirsty for the Rumi enemy? Colossal vanity that!

No I don't expect agreement. Disagreement beckons
knowledge come knocking. Going on and on when
sources are exhausted is beyond disagreement
its just a way of being benignly disagreeable.


Well Lioness its been nice collaborating with you
these few weeks but I ain't the one to go back
and forth on repetitive horseshih that always
deflects the main point with some peripheral
obscurant shih hoping I'll run where you point
forgetting the matter actually at hand.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaan, I cain't use it
- James Brown -

Art museum couldn't vet a portrait sitting
You can't present documentation the guy
was ever even in the same site as Ahmad.


Take it away baby cakes I'm done with you.

=-=-=


Do I over estimate some ESers ability to
analyse data and synthesize it to produce
original thought?


=-=-=

quote:

---

I got no tolerance for a chain of
- yes you said it, no i didn't -
inanity.


* The word allegory means something else. You cannot go and make up your own definitions.
* I never said he made up the definition of an allegory. This is what he accused me of





* I did not post about relations with Israel in Mauritania.
* al-Murabitûn. It is my understanding that Jews were doing alright under them





Aieee sombody pants on fire!!!

---

 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Ish Gebor put up a photo labeling various skin tones such names as "carob" and "nutmeg" "hazelnut" "heavenly honey"

these various food an spice names are not more common color names.

What is the basic color of the skin you see in the picture above? Here is is again copied by itself into the circle >>


and why do you say it is hard to tell by the photo?




^^ this is the color of the neck copied mechanically into the circle below it

_______________________________________________________________




^^ this is the color of the center of his cheek mechanically (digitally sampled) and put into that circle above him. I didn't do color matching by eye. It's the exact color copied into that circle. Against a white background it looks slightly different but that is just optical illusion
we are looking at orange here, perhaps "dark orange"
no need for fancy names like "tangerine goddess" etc

---

There's something called undertones in skin tones. I suspect that this is what you are referring at?

I don't know if the names are common or uncommon. I just looked at the picture with actual people. And the names are just a reference, instead of calling them 1, 2, 3 etc or some other names. I don't understand the biggie you are making here?

Out of curiosity I decided to look up the names. Yahoo search resulted in about 6,680 hits. And Google search resulted in about 8.710 hits. Apparently it is common? This image below is what popped up as an image result relating to the names, so I think you are naturally talented for making these circles. However, for you as a "Black woman" you need to be ashamed for not knowing these names. This is why you get a few points off.




 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique

^^I don't think Ish is making up a definition. Some parts of the Torah
are only understood allegorically, some literally. Ish basically is correct.

---

I never said he made up the definition of an allegory. This is what he accused me of

he said

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

allegory (n.)
"figurative treatment of an unmentioned subject under the guise of another similar to it in some way," late 14c., from Old French allegorie (12c.), from Latin allegoria, from Greek allegoria "figurative language, description of one thing under the image of another," literally "a speaking about something else," from allos "another, different" (from PIE root *al- (1) "beyond") + agoreuein "speak openly, speak in the assembly," from agora "assembly" (see agora). Related: Allegorist

---

https://www.etymonline.com/word/allegory#etymonline_v_8169

---

Yes, fan allegory uses figurative metaphorical language , making a point by using mythological or symbolic stories and mythical made up imaginary events

My point was people that follow these various religions who go to church or synagogue or mosque do not see it in that way
They believe there are a small amount of allegorical parables in their holy book but the vast majority of stories, miracles etc. are real and that their holy books were dictated by a real being, God, to men who received his word directly and to his dictation on to scrolls

Try to tell any practicing Jew, Muslim or Christian "you would agree that the bible (Tanakh, Qu'ran) is just symbolic stories, a teaching tool"

and they will say no, God is real and the bible is real, there are some parables here and there but this is the word of the Most High God and a record of our past, present and prophesies that foretell our future

For instance, BHI believe that Deuteronomy predicted
specifically the actual Trans-Atlantic slave trade,
that this was no coincidence. It is prophecy fulfilled, God knowing exactly what would happen and inspiring men to record this future event in the bible

If you try to tell a believer in this that this is just a symbolic story in the bible written over 2,000 years ago with no foreknowledge of a real event that would take place in the future. They would tell you you are wring and that is exactly what it is, God knowing what happens in the future before it happiness and transmitting this knowledge to certain humans to write it down

See what I mean >>

---

I didn't say that an allegory is based on fantasies, but if you want to phrase it like that you can. I already gave an explanation to how people have written themselves into the 12 tribes and other writings we see in the Torah.

The point is that these (collection of) books are misunderstood by almost everybody. And it became more obfuscated as more people got access to them. People started to give their own Interpretations.

It's like me giving you a book about Internet governances and tell you to read it, with you not understanding the basics of IT, networking, cybercrime, International-, governmental- and local law etc. It will confuse the heck out of you. And this is how we end up with A, B, C and D grade students. Somehow when it comes to these old scripts everyone thinks they are A grade students.

Can you even phantom how deep this is?







The Harps that Once...
Sumerian Poetry in Translation, Auteur: Thorkild Jacobsen

quote:

---

Chariots (giš gigir) are attested for the traditional deities Ninlil, Šara, Ningirsu, Bau, Imdugudbabbar, Ašgi and Alla, and Ningišzida. 3

---

(Pitts, Audrey. 2015. The Cult of the Deified King in Ur III Mesopotamia. Doctoral dissertation, Harvard University, Graduate School of Arts & Sciences.)
https://dash.harvard.edu/handle/1/17467243

quote:

---

The phenotypic attributes of GD13a are similar to the neighbouring Anatolian early farmers and Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers. Based on diagnostic SNPs, she had dark, black hair and brown eyes (see Supplementary). She lacked the derived variant (rs16891982) of the SLC45A2 gene associated with light skin pigmentation but likely had at least one copy of the derived SLC24A5 allele (rs1426654) associated with the same trait. The derived SLC24A5 variant has been found in both Neolithic farmer and Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer groups5,15,24 suggesting that it was already at appreciable frequency before these populations diverged. Finally, she did not have the most common European variant of the LCT gene (rs4988235) associated with the ability to digest raw milk, consistent with the later emergence of this adaptation5,15,21.

---

(M. Gallego-Llorente, R. Pinhasi et al., The genetics of an early Neolithic pastoralist from the Zagros, Iran)


In the words of Tragedy Gaddafi the Intelligent Hoodlum:
"I remain calm, study isalm, read the torah
World goin in flames like sodom and gomora"

 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Mawley Ahmad of Tunis by Rubens after Vermeyer




Is he also the black skinned Magi
in nativity scenes of old Europe?

---

^ painted in 1609

Mulay Ahmad had died of the plague at Termini Imerese (Sicily) in 1575.



Portrait of Mulay Ahmad
Date Created: circa 1535 - 1536
Jan Cornelisz. Vermeyen

---

Link to the image above.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/725522

1609 - 1575 = 34 years.

My two cents

Mulay Ahmad had root in the Masmuda-Berbers.

quote:

---

Abu al-Abbas Ahmad III (Arabic: أبو العباس أحمد‎) also known as “Moulay Ahmad” and “Moulay Hamida”, or “Mulay Amida” in some Italian sources, was the Hafsid ruler of Ifriqiya from 1543 to 1569.

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_al-Abbas_Ahmad_III

quote:

---

Mulay Ahmad

Peter Paul Rubens (Flemish, 1577–1640) about 1609

This painting is a free copy after a lost portrait by Jan Cornelisz. Vermeyen (1500– 1559) that was probably in Rubens's own collection. Therefore, Mulay Ahmad had died many years before Rubens painted him. Though in fact a brutal leader, the Berber King of Tunis was for Rubens an idealized, exotic champion of Christianity whose image later served as a model for the Black King in several of Rubens's images of the Adoration of the Magi.

---

Museum of Fine Arts, Boston

https://collections.mfa.org/objects/32728

quote:

---

As early as the 10th century, biblical commentaries suggested that one of the Magi came from Africa. In art, however, the African king first appeared around the beginning of the 15th century, becoming nearly ubiquitous by the early 16th. He usually is portrayed as the youngest king and associated with the gift of myrrh.

An aromatic resin extracted from Cammiphora trees that grow in North Africa and the Middle East, myrrh is, like frankincense, burnt as incense. But more significantly for the story of the Magi, it was used in biblical times to anoint the dead, and thus seen as foreshadowing the death of Christ. Indeed, the Gospel of John reports that Jesus was buried with myrrh in accordance with Jewish burial customs. Rubens’s king opens the lid of a small chest that recalls a sarcophagus, revealing a glow of light that hints at Christ’s resurrection. The gift of myrrh thus proclaims the central tenet of Christianity: the mystery of Jesus’s death and resurrection and, therefore, his divinity.

Unlike the other two Magi paintings that Rubens painted for Moretus, this figure is not based on a life study but on an earlier work of art—a portrait of a Tunisian king. That 15th-century painting, executed by a Dutch artist who had visited Tunis, may have been in Rubens’s own collection; the artist made a copy of it that still exists. As was his practice, Rubens used the figure in other compositions: for example, as the African king in his Adoration of the Magi in the St. Janskerk in Mechelen (engraved by Lucas Vorsterman in 1620).

---

https://www.nga.gov/features/rubens-magi/the-youngest-king.html
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:




the two figures on the far right by the dog , I don't know who they are. They are the size of boys, looking 3 feet tall. One has a hat resembling the same as the horse rider João de SáPanasco they are in front of. They both have swords. Are they his sons? Are they adult men who were also of the Order of Santiago? It is unknown as far as I know

---

They became part of one big nigga. You look the same so we treat you the same.

To enclose this:

quote:

---

Some Ga peoples believe that they were part of Israel- migrating from south through Uganda, then along the Congo River, westward through Cameroon, Nigeria, Benin, Togo and finally to Greater Accra.

---

https://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/features/A-True-History-of-The-Ga-Peoples-287636

quote:

---

The Ga Adangebe started off in Egypt in a city called Goshen. Then they began to leave Egypt during 672-525 B.C. On that journey, they crossed Ethiopia and moved into Nigeria. Again they migrated across West Africa and finally stopped in Ghana, which became their permanent home.
(Ga-Adangbe people, Origin and History, 2013 n.d)

---

https://gaadagbe.weebly.com/history.html

quote:

---

Where do the Ga-Adangbe come from?

The Ga-Adangbe came from a city in Egypt called Goshen. The group stayed there for some years, before deciding to leave the city during 672-525 B.C. During that journey, they crossed Ethiopia and then moved to Nigeria. They later migrated to West Africa and eventually stopped in Ghana, which became their permanent home.

---

https://yen.com.gh/171559-ga-adangbe-tribe-language-traditional-wear-dances-food-religion.html

quote:

---

The land of Goshen (Hebrew: אֶרֶץ גֹּשֶׁן‎ or ארץ גושן‎ Eretz Gošen) is named in the Bible as the place in Egypt given to the Hebrews by the pharaoh of Joseph (Book of Genesis, Genesis 45:9–10), and the land from which they later left Egypt at the time of the Exodus. It was located in the eastern Delta of the Nile, lower Egypt; perhaps at or near Avaris, the seat of power of the Hyksos kings.

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Goshen
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
The Sarajevo Haggadah is an illuminated manuscript that contains the illustrated traditional text of the Passover Haggadah which accompanies the Passover Seder. It is one of the oldest Sephardic Haggadahs in the world, originating in Barcelona around 1350. The Sarajevo Haggadah is handwritten on bleached calfskin and illuminated in copper and gold. It opens with 34 pages of illustrations of key scenes in the Bible from creation through the death of Moses. Its pages are stained with wine, evidence that it was used at many Passover Seders. The Sarajevo Haggadah has survived many close calls with destruction. Historians believe that it was taken out of the Iberian Peninsula by Jews who were expelled by the Alhambra Decree in 1492.


" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarajevo_Haggadah#/media/File:Sarejevohagadah.gif

from the Sarajevo Haggadah, written in fourteenth-century Catalonia. Top: Moses and the Burning Bush. Bottom: Aaron's staff swallows the magicians'

____________________________________

https://richardmcbee.com/writings/jewish-art-before-1800/item/the-sarajevo-haggadah-the-choice-of-images

Manna and Receiving the Law, illuminated manuscript, pages 30 & 31, ink and color on vellum (ca.1350) The Sarajevo Haggadah Courtesy of Joy Schonberg Gallery


The Sarajevo Haggadah was created in Barcelona, circa 1350, for a prominent Jewish family. Their connection with the rulers of the Kingdom of Aragon is evidenced by the heraldic crests found on the title page. . It is likely that the haggadah left Spain during the Expulsion of 1492. From marginal notations we know it was sold in northern Italy in August 1510 and then examined by an Italian ecclesiastical censor in 1609. Subsequently it was brought to Sarajevo, Bosnia where the Jozef Kohen family sold it in 1894. Housed in the Bosnian National Museum, its fame attracted the interest of the Nazi invaders in 1941 which resulted in its being hidden in neighboring villages until after the war.
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 
^
Lioness, those images (art) are very European inspired like. Are there also pages on Ethiopians?

Lioness, why do they mention Northeast Africa, but not the Crescent (Babylon/ Assyria)?

quote:

---

These 17 illuminations detail his dreams, conflicts, sale, trials, role as ruler of Egypt and final reconciliation with his brothers and father. As the procession to bury Jacob is paired with the burial of Joseph, the last set illustrates the midrash of a Joseph’s coffin that was sunk in the Nile. The Nile/Aron motif is continued with the finding of the basket with the infant Moses by Pharaoh’s daughter. The death of the patriarch Jacob in proximity with the death of the righteous Joseph and the birth of the man who will lead the Jews out of bondage creates a pictorial equation that demands us to believe in redemption even when all seems lost.

---

https://www.jewishpress.com/sections/the-sarajevo-haggadah-the-choice-of-images/2003/05/02/
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
[QB] ^
Lioness, those images (art) are very European inspired like. Are there also pages on Ethiopians?

---

check the link directly above the image.
Spain is in Europe
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
n Medieval Italy and Spain, red hair was associated with the heretical nature of Jews and their rejection of Jesus, and thus Judas Iscariot was commonly depicted as red-haired in Italian and Spanish art.
writers from Shakespeare to Dickens would identify Jewish characters by giving them red hair, such as the villainous Jewish characters Shylock and Fagin.[77] The antisemitic association persisted into modern times in Soviet Russia.[18] The medieval prejudice against red-hair may have derived from the Ancient biblical tradition, in relation to biblical figures such as Esau and King David. The Ancient historian Josephus would mistranslate the Hebrew Torah to describe the more positive figure of King David as 'golden haired', in contrast to the negative figure of Esau, even though the original Hebrew Torah implies that both King David and Esau had 'fiery red hair'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair#:~:text=In%20Medieval%20Italy%20and%20Spain,in%20Italian%20and%20Spanish%20art.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

Rubens 1609





Portrait of Mulay Ahmad
Date Created: circa 1535 - 1536
Jan Cornelisz. Vermeyen

Ish Geber I put in this MLK engraving just for comparison. Tukuler is having a problem with believing that the earlier black & white illustration of Ahamad by Vermeyen made when Ahmad was alive is making him look too mulatto and he couldn't have been mulatto.

Do you agree with this?
What I would say is that since it is a black & white illustration we can't really tell how "black" he looked
I think when Rubens decided to painting him in color we can't say that he necessarily decided to depict him darker, that we are just looking at two type of media, one a black & white engraving and the other a painting. His facial features are nearly identical in both works.
We are also looking at an old print engraving, the ink may not be as darks as it once was
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Shut your lying piehole, projecting your beliefs as mine.

Nothing to do with runs around in yoir head

Ish picked up everything I put down
without twisting diztorting playing stupid.

Rubens is just as fake as it's a copy of Vermeyen
who never was close enough to make an accurate
portrait of Ahmad's facial features which do
NOT differ between the etching and painting.


Afr-eccentrics and Africa/black race über alles
ain't my shtick as announced in my signature
Authentic Africana over self-serving nationalisms, black white or in-between.
I was shook when I came found no old portraits of RMB"M
matched the handpainting I first saw of him as a
crayon brown and fleshy facial featured man. Over
blackenizing ie anthropology negro stereotype, the
whole earth is harmful to brain and self-confidence
once the exaggerations are uncovered.

Ditto ALL Afreccentric garbage.


I'm nicely asking you keep my name out your mouth PLEASE.
I said I was done with you on this sub-topic.
Respect respect that please.

=-=-=

Anyway thx 4 putting up the suggested hagada.
It confirms sallow complexion was the perceived
norm of most its users or else what the artist
aspired of the subjects.

Haven't found Stedman's painting of Akan(?)
tailors next to a Sephardi Tahor vendor. The
complexion is sallow just like that Polish
visitor to America reporting sallow colour
of his country's Jews the same as yalla
and hi yalla Americans.
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

Rubens 1609





Portrait of Mulay Ahmad
Date Created: circa 1535 - 1536
Jan Cornelisz. Vermeyen

Ish Geber I put in this MLK engraving just for comparison. Tukuler is having a problem with believing that the earlier black & white illustration of Ahamad by Vermeyen made when Ahmad was alive is making him look too mulatto and he couldn't have been mulatto.

Do you agree with this?
What I would say is that since it is a black & white illustration we can't really tell how "black" he looked
I think when Rubens decided to painting him in color we can't say that he necessarily decided to depict him darker, that we are just looking at two type of media, one a black & white engraving and the other a painting. His facial features are nearly identical in both works.
We are also looking at an old print engraving, the ink may not be as darks as it once was

---

From an artistic point of view there are obviously distortions with the painting. For whatever reason, I don't know. Maybe he was practicing on "his first African", or perhaps it was a student who actually made it?

What does the text say? Why is it not in Dutch?

Mulay Ahmad had root in the Masmuda-Berbers.

quote:

---

Abu al-Abbas Ahmad III (Arabic: أبو العباس أحمد‎) also known as “Moulay Ahmad” and “Moulay Hamida”, or “Mulay Amida” in some Italian sources, was the Hafsid ruler of Ifriqiya from 1543 to 1569.

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_al-Abbas_Ahmad_III

quote:

---

The Hafsids (Arabic: الحفصيون‎ al-Ḥafṣiyūn) were a Sunni Muslim dynasty of Berber descent[3] who ruled Ifriqiya (western Libya, Tunisia, and eastern Algeria) from 1229 to 1574.

Almohad Ifriqiya

The ancestor of the dynasty was Abu Hafs Umar ibn Yahya al-Hintati, a Berber from the Hintata tribal confederation which belonged to the greater Masmuda confederation of Morocco. He was a member of the council of ten and a close companion of Ibn Tumart. His original Berber name was "Faskat u-Mzal Inti", which later was changed to "Abu Hafs Umar ibn Yahya al-Hintati" (also known as "Umar Inti") since it was a tradition of Ibn Tumart to rename his close companions once they had adhered to his religious teachings.

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafsid_dynasty



Above: MASMUDA BERBER of the Upper Atlas - also known as Shluh. They once occupied the Moroccan coast and a large part of the Atlas until the 10th century. The Masmuda were also the largest of the Berber tribes in Spain in the earlier centuries of Muslim rule there.


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
From an artistic point of view there are obviously distortions with the painting.

---

what are you talking about?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Exercise :Pardo

Who gets thst patronimic?
Why?
What relation has it to other terms.
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
From an artistic point of view there are obviously distortions with the painting.

---

what are you talking about?

---

Have you ever drawn something? Metrically there are mistakes made in that drawing. It's a bit the way BradonP used to draw in the beginning. He progressively has gotten better I must add.

And what does the text say? Why is it not in Dutch?

What I am talking about?


Portrait of Jan Cornelisz. Vermeyen
circa 1564-1615
Author: Johannes Wierix




Portrait of the Marquis and Catholic Church Cardinal Mercurino Gattinara, Grand Chancellor of the Empire, by Jan Cornelisz Vermeyen (c. 1530), on display at the Royal Museums of Fine Arts, Brussels



 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
^
Lioness, those images (art) are very European inspired like. Are there also pages on Ethiopians?

---

check the link directly above the image.
Spain is in Europe

---

I know it was made in Spain, Europe. I posted some other site for addition info.

Are there also pages on Ethiopians?

And why do they mention Northeast Africa, Egypt and the Nile, but not the Crescent (Babylon/ Assyria)?

quote:

---

These 17 illuminations detail his dreams, conflicts, sale, trials, role as ruler of Egypt and final reconciliation with his brothers and father. As the procession to bury Jacob is paired with the burial of Joseph, the last set illustrates the midrash of a Joseph’s coffin that was sunk in the Nile. The Nile/Aron motif is continued with the finding of the basket with the infant Moses by Pharaoh’s daughter. The death of the patriarch Jacob in proximity with the death of the righteous Joseph and the birth of the man who will lead the Jews out of bondage creates a pictorial equation that demands us to believe in redemption even when all seems lost.

---

https://www.jewishpress.com/sections/the-sarajevo-haggadah-the-choice-of-images/2003/05/02/
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
From an artistic point of view there are obviously distortions with the painting.

---

what are you talking about?

---

Have you ever drawn something? Metrically there are mistakes made in that drawing.

---

what kind of mistakes? Where?
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
From an artistic point of view there are obviously distortions with the painting.

---

what are you talking about?

---

Have you ever drawn something? Metrically there are mistakes made in that drawing.

---

what kind of mistakes? Where?

---

I asked you have ever drawn something? I like to know this, before I start explaining. I am not in the mood for endlessly babbling in circles about something you don't even understand.

Are the metrics perfect to you? Btw, what does the text say?



1535 - 1536 vs 1500-1559.


Jan Cornelisz.Vermeyen (Beverwyk 1500-1559 Brüssel), Nachfolger Bildnis des Mulay Hassan, König von Tunis, beschriftet oben links: MULE/ASES sowie oben rechts:TUNETIS/REX, Öl auf Leinwand, 78 x 64 cm, gerahmt, (GS)



 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Much of the so called Renaissance genius was paint by numbers.. so much of it is not literal but they reuse images and imitate other paintings.
 

---

Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
 
@ISH is that second image a real painting? It looks like a meme of someone hearing something stupid or doing something stupid.
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thereal:
@ISH is that second image a real painting? It looks like a meme of someone hearing something stupid or doing something stupid.

---

I suspect so. It's auctioned for €15,000 - €18,000.

15000 Euro = 17,624.8515 U.S. Dollar
18,000 Euro = 21.166,72 U.S. Dollar

Item Overview
Description

Jan Cornelisz.Vermeyen (Beverwyk 1500-1559 Brüssel), Nachfolger Bildnis des Mulay Hassan, König von Tunis, beschriftet oben links: MULE/ASES sowie oben rechts:TUNETIS/REX, Öl auf Leinwand, 78 x 64 cm, gerahmt, (GS)

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/Jan-Cornelisz.Vermeyen-Beverwyk-1500-1559_P1T1FHSN38/


Lot 160: Jan Cornelisz.Vermeyen (Beverwyk 1500-1559)

Auction Date: Dec 11, 2008

Estimate: €15,000 - €18,000)

https://www.invaluable.com/artist/vermeyen-jan-h7e7v5fz5u/sold-at-auction-prices/
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
Much of the so called Renaissance genius was paint by numbers.. so much of it is not literal but they reuse images and imitate other paintings.

---

As we are speaking, Lioness is now actively searching the internet for images, in hopes to debunk this.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
But considering what the bible says about the lineage of the Judah, Simeon, and the other 10 tribes what are the chances they are "all" redheads????


Unless the red head contingent are Syrian converts?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


1535 - 1536 vs 1500-1559.


Jan Cornelisz.Vermeyen (Beverwyk 1500-1559 Brüssel), Nachfolger Bildnis des Mulay Hassan, König von Tunis, beschriftet oben links: MULE/ASES sowie oben rechts:TUNETIS/REX, Öl auf Leinwand, 78 x 64 cm, gerahmt, (GS)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
Have you ever drawn something? Metrically there are mistakes made in that drawing.

---

I don't know what you are referring to when you say "metrically"

I have made hundreds of drawings. The face in the etching is perfectly realistic. The body is abnormally small with little arms. That is the only distortion I see. I had read somewhere that that was sometimes done with people of importance, making their head bigger. Nevertheless the face has no weird distortions and it does not look like a generic or stereotyped face, it looks like a real person.

Tukuler seems to think there is something wrong with his face, that a 16th century sultan in Tunis could not have looked like that, I don't get it
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


Inscribed to the upper left and right "MVLEASES TVNETIS REX".


"This fanciful portrait is presumably intended to depict the main character of the play "An Excellent Tragedy of Muleasses the Turke, and Borgias Governour of Florence" by the English writer John Mason, which was published in 1610."

https://www.lempertz.com/en/catalogues/lot/1114-1/64-italian-school-17th-century.html

painting sold at auction in 2018 for 5.208 €
($6122 USD)
______________________________________

Seemingly based on Vermeyen's portrait of Moulay Hassan, yet his ethnicity in the play is "turk" here who were actually the enemy of Moulay Hassan and his ally Charles V
Hassan was caliph of Tunis of the berber Hafsid dynsaty

___________________________________________



http://islamicart.museumwnf.org/database_item.php?id=object;EPM;at;Mus22;12;en&cp

Undated

This portrait of Mulay Hassan, the Sultan of Tunis, is based on either a painting in the Uffizi Galleries or its now-lost prototype that was once in the collection of portraits assembled by Paolo Giovio. All of the portraits in the collection seem to be based on a portrait of the sultan by Cornelisz Vermeyen, the Netherlandish artist who had accompanied Charles V on his Tunisian campaign in AD 1535. The latter was the emperor’s response to the capture of the city by the Ottoman admiral, Hayreddin Barbarossa, which had forced the emperor’s ally, Mulay Hassan, to flee to Spain.
From the collection of more than 900 portraits that Archduke Ferdinand II of Tyrol (AD 1529–95) began to assemble in AD 1676. The small paintings come from a variety of sources and depict both famous historical and contemporary personalities.

How Object was obtained:
Part of the collection of more than 900 portraits that Archduke Ferdinand II of Tyrol (AD 1529–95) began to assemble/commission in AD 1676


__________________________

So we have two artists here seemingly basing these paintings on either Vermeyen's engraving or his original painting (now lost) and it seems to these artists would not see the brown skin tone as a change from what is suggested but not crystal clear by it's nature as an etching, the black & white etching by Vermeyen
- unless someone were to suggest that the facial features are only partially African in the Vermeyen's engraving, the lips not big enough or something (I would not agree) and that if that was due foreign mixture such mixture would be impossible in a berber Calif in 16th century Tunis
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
^^^^ looking like an average African American ..


Scottie Pippen comes to mind


 

---

Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
 
The guy in the painting looks more like a mulatto than anything else.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
[QB] ^^^^ looking like an average African American ..


Scottie Pippen comes to mind

---

that would be compared to those paintings, but those painting seem to be based on the Vermeyen etching and both of those paintings changed the features in different ways, see the nose is different in the Vermeyen etching
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 




Moulay Hassan (born 8 May 2003) is the Crown Prince of Morocco.[1] He is the elder child of King Mohammed VI of Morocco and Princess Lalla Salma. He has a younger sister, Princess Lalla Khadija. He is named after his grandfather Hassan II; when he ascends the throne, he is expected to reign as Hassan III. In 2015, Hassan began participating with his father at public official engagements
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


Jewish Festival in Tetuan, Alfred Dehodencq, 1865, Paris Museum of Jewish Art and History

In 1853 Dehodencq travelled to Morocco, where for the following ten years he produced many of his most famous paintings depicting scenes of the world he encountered. Dehodencq was the first foreign artist known to have lived in Morocco for an extended number of years.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Before I cuss yr asz out
tell me Tuklar is a typo for Ish Geber
and not a deliberate misspelling.
I told you leave my name out your mouth re this subtopic.


direct quote unedited cut and paste me is ok
speaking in my name i've respectfully politely
asked you to desist doing so on the mawlay
sub-topic

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


1535 - 1536 vs 1500-1559.


Jan Cornelisz.Vermeyen (Beverwyk 1500-1559 Brüssel), Nachfolger Bildnis des Mulay Hassan, König von Tunis, beschriftet oben links: MULE/ASES sowie oben rechts:TUNETIS/REX, Öl auf Leinwand, 78 x 64 cm, gerahmt, (GS)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
Have you ever drawn something? Metrically there are mistakes made in that drawing.

---

I don't know what you are referring to when you say "metrically"

I have made hundreds of drawings. The face in the etching is perfectly realistic. The body is abnormally small with little arms. That is the only distortion I see. I had read somewhere that that was sometimes done with people of importance, making their head bigger. Nevertheless the face has no weird distortions and it does not look like a generic or stereotyped face, it looks like a real person.

Tukular seems to think there is something wrong with his face, that a 16th century sultan in Tunis could not have looked like that, I don't get it

---

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Painting From 945 AD Spain Depicts Christ and Angels as Black People

This painting was created in the year 945 AD, before the european renaissance which began around 1300 AD. During the renaissance, europeans destroyed all black images and replaced them with their own.




From the book "Early Spanish Manuscript Illumination" by John Williams, page 54

"Moralia in Job of 945"

Christ in Majesty

Christ is shown enthroned between two Cherubs, within a great circular firmament suspended from the hands of two Seraphs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commentary_on_Job_of_945
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
THIS IS WHAT TUKULER THINKS AND SAYS

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
What have you done but repost what I told you
about al-Murabitûn and al-Muwahhidun relations
with Israels in Mauritania to al-Andalus to
Sirte and now you call it your understanding?

Oh yeah? Tell me then the names of the Israels
city states and who their most protective and
offensive militant force was?


Africans aren't pets to be named by owners.
Anyone unwilling to learn and use the proper
names of peoples as printed in serious studies
just wants to maintain a Yourowpeein worldview.
Get it?

And we see that is your objective as you once
again post your preferred artwork of a famous
Maghrebi mulay. Don't bother me, please. We
went toe to toe on this in some depth. Don't
chase your tail expecting me to follow up
monkey chase the weasel style. I'll just pop
the blood sucker with thread bumps.


Move it forward or reply to the tyros.
I'm the satellite beaming your dish


=-=-=

Of course theLioness is intentionally playing obtuse.
Oh this cat psychology of toying. Who else is meant
but the two guys dressed similar to,, but with different
covers than those earlier noted as Jews by her?

What to make of the art on Srnan showing Akan(?)
tailors and a Portugal Jew merchant shop where the
latter are not complexioned like the Lisbon dock
painting?


=-=-=


How does one conclude Andalusian Jewry has no Maghreb Jewish roots?
By not knowing the history of Israel's diaspora in al Aqsa, that's how.

---

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
THIS IS WHAT TUKULER THINKS AND SAYS

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
As shown it's nothing but a blank
The poses of near all Mulays are
the playing card deck king. In
the case of this latest fiasco
the pose is that of bishop card
later replaced by Knave/Jack.

Does any serious student
of history suppose even
one mulay ever sat and
posed for a Rumi artist?

But I suppose I must thank you for
dragging in a mulay contemporaneous
to the Lisbon docks painting --
even if fanciful like this one of
a mulay from the Atlantic coast
kingdom of Maroc probably is too.
Def no playing card pose though.


closer to the

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:


And we see that is ypur objective as you once
again post your preferred artwork of a famous
Maghrebi mulay.

---

I posted him again and finding the picture again, the one created when he was alive. I posted it because it is a great portrait and now he is in this conversation spoken about in relation to Jews in the region and the discussion of the horse rider in a painting of Lisbon of Mulay Ahmad's time roughly and related military confrontations

---

---

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
THIS IS WHAT TUKULER THINKS AND SAYS

Here's where I first inform ES that Rubens copied Vermyen.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Mawley Ahmad of Tunis by Rubens after Vermeyer



Is he also the black skinned Magi
in nativity scenes of old Europe?

---

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Painting From 11th Century Depicts Hebrews as Negro People With Afros

This painting from the 11th century is called "Three Chaldean soldiers with Hebrew captives", by Bristol Psalter, a greek painter.

*** It is important to note that this painting was created roughly 200 years before the european renaissance began, during which the europeans destroyed all existing artwork in order to replace it with false white images of themselves (iconoclasm).

The Chaldeans were the ancient civilization that Abraham came from.




The Chaldean soldiers are on the left and the Hebrew captives are on the right.

Notice how all of the people in this painting are depicted as negro people with afros and/or woolly/nappy hair.

The source of this image is Cambridge University (UK).

*** Cambridge University (The University of Cambridge, legally The Chancellor, Masters, and Scholars of the University of Cambridge) is a collegiate public research university in Cambridge, United Kingdom. Founded in 1209 and granted a royal charter by King Henry III in 1231, Cambridge is the second-oldest university in the English-speaking world and the world's fourth-oldest surviving university.


https://www.ames.cam.ac.uk/chaldean-soldiers-hebrew-captives
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
THIS IS WHAT TUKULER THINKS AND SAYS

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Again

Does any serious student
of history suppose even
one mulay ever sat and
posed for a Rumi artist?


Either you know the history or you don't.
Either you know Islamic rules regarding
images taken seriously by African Muslims
or you don't.

Need I go on?


So produce evidence that any Christian European
artist ws ever even within 100 yards of any mulay.
You couldn't do it 9 yrs ago. Can you do it now?
Either you know that or you don't.

I'd like to see what either you know or don't know
or should say can document via your researches. I'm
ready to learn since all I don't know can fill up
several hundred university libraries at least.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:


Does any serious student
of history suppose even
one mulay ever sat and
posed for a Rumi artist?

---

supposing doesn't matter either you know the circumstances of the Vermeyen portrait or you don't

---

---

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
THIS IS WHAT TUKULER THINKS AND SAYS

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Dang, do we really need see horse ass(hole)?


=-=-=


I vended Red Black and Green flags one MLK day
at the Capitol. Never saw the Prez. Awaiting
proof Vermeyen got within 100 yards of Ahmad.


This large etching is a portrait of Mulay Ahmad, the future king of Tunis. The battle rages in the background, where Turkish and Imperial soldiers clash before the ruins of the aqueduct of ancient Carthage. Vermeyen portrayed the prince with a noble gaze, holding a sword in his right hand. At upper right, he painted the royal coat of arms with an inscription in Arabic: ´There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet´. The exotic nature of this kind of portrait appealed to the European public. Pictures of Turkish sultans were also widely available at the time.


More about the Reubens full color copy of the lost Vermeyen.

https://issuu.com/the-walters-art-museum/docs/singlepages3429_african_presence_10/107
https://issuu.com/the-walters-art-museum/docs/singlepages3429_african_presence_10/109
https://issuu.com/the-walters-art-museum/docs/singlepages3429_african_presence_10/114


The Walters Art Museum refused to put its life
on the line by attesting Ahmad sat for Vermeyen.
They admit to not even knowing at first but then
progressively present speculation as next best
thing to fact.

- probably from life
- While there he also apparently
- it is very likely
- it is conceivable


This is beyond scholarly caution.
What it does is indicate cluelessness.
Much more honest than asserting the
unprovable guesswork is fact.

---

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
THIS IS WHAT TUKULER THINKS AND SAYS

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Uh-oh, play right time just ended.


Are you a donkey can only carry cut and pastes.
You can do analysis. Why play slick? You ain't.

I done told you Rubens copied Vermeyen.
Vermeyens oil of Ahmad was lost.
Splendid memory he must've had
to make a 'facs' etching.

Don't look now. Somebody never digested the Walters Art Museum pages.

Uh-huh yeah. Ahmad stood at Carthaginian ruins
warfare all around him AND took time out to sit
for a portrait while Barbarosa was at the gate
thirsty for the Rumi enemy? Colossal vanity that!

No I don't expect agreement. Disagreement beckons
knowledge come knocking. Going on and on when
sources are exhausted is beyond disagreement
its just a way of being benignly disagreeable.


Well Lioness its been nice collaborating with you
these few weeks but I ain't the one to go back
and forth on repetitive horseshih that always
deflects the main point with some peripheral
obscurant shih hoping I'll run where you point
forgetting the matter actually at hand.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaan, I cain't use it
- James Brown -

Art museum couldn't vet a portrait sitting
You can't present documentation the guy
was ever even in the same site as Ahmad.


Take it away baby cakes I'm done with you.

=-=-=


Do I over estimate some ESers ability to
analyse data and synthesize it to produce
original thought?


=-=-=

quote:

---

I got no tolerance for a chain of
- yes you said it, no i didn't -
inanity.


* The word allegory means something else. You cannot go and make up your own definitions.
* I never said he made up the definition of an allegory. This is what he accused me of





* I did not post about relations with Israel in Mauritania.
* al-Murabitûn. It is my understanding that Jews were doing alright under them





Aieee sombody pants on fire!!!

---

---

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
THIS IS WHAT TUKULER THINKS AND SAYS

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Shut your lying piehole, projecting your beliefs as mine.

Nothing to do with runs around in yoir head

Ish picked up everything I put down
without twisting diztorting playing stupid.

Rubens is just as fake as it's a copy of Vermeyen
who never was close enough to make an accurate
portrait of Ahmad's facial features which do
NOT differ between the etching and painting.


Afr-eccentrics and Africa/black race über alles
ain't my shtick as announced in my signature
Authentic Africana over self-serving nationalisms, black white or in-between.
I was shook when I came found no old portraits of RMB"M
matched the handpainting I first saw of him as a
crayon brown and fleshy facial featured man. Over
blackenizing ie anthropology negro stereotype, the
whole earth is harmful to brain and self-confidence
once the exaggerations are uncovered.

Ditto ALL Afreccentric garbage.


I'm nicely asking you keep my name out your mouth PLEASE.
I said I was done with you on this sub-topic.
Respect respect that please.

=-=-=

Anyway thx 4 putting up the suggested hagada.
It confirms sallow complexion was the perceived
norm of most its users or else what the artist
aspired of the subjects.

Haven't found Stedman's painting of Akan(?)
tailors next to a Sephardi Tahor vendor. The
complexion is sallow just like that Polish
visitor to America reporting sallow colour
of his country's Jews the same as yalla
and hi yalla Americans.

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


https://www.bl.uk/collection-items/the-bristol-psalter




Bristol Psalter
11th century Greek

This pocket-sized (105 x 85 mm) 11th-century manuscript contains the Greek text of the Psalms followed by the biblical Odes. It is an example of a group of manuscripts known as ‘marginal psalters’, so called because the margins are lavishly decorated with images related to the text of the Psalms. Many of these images depict scenes from the life of Christ, and in so doing link the words of the Old Testament to the Christian message of the Gospels.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Vermeyen
who never was close enough to make an accurate
portrait of Ahmad's facial features

---

Lie
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Not to interrupt what Tukuler thinks
Moulay Hassan is the Crown Prince of Morocco.

Looks like a typical admixed African American even more so he looks Dominican... but if geneticist did their thing he would come back as north african/eurasian... ..as you can see he and Meg shaking hands there is no difference in their complexions... and considering that his mom is a red head



The African genes are strong in this royal family..


Moulay was transfixed ... I think he was in love..


 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
YLB, it's still a free forum. Your posts are no interuption.
I know from long experience tL will go on and try and provoke masochistic abuse.
Nothing can be done about it. Sorry for bombing Kemet but now on I can post solo graphic



 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

I bet you're mad at the fact that you can't find any reconstructed or "white-washed" images of Psalter's. Clearly the people during his era knew these ancient civilizations were "black".
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 


Medieval Jewish depictions... red beards... funny hats...








Funny hat second Syrian from the left.. red beards...


ANCIENT CONVERTS
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@Tukuler

Couldn't help but feel that I've seen the image of the guy in the turban before during one of my study sessions and I just remembered where it was that I've seen him.

This is the same guy, yes? On the cover of this book?

The book is titled "The Image of the Black in Western Art. Volume III From the 'Age of Discovery' to the Age of Abolition"

by Jean Michel Massing, David Bindman, Henry Louis Gates



https://blackwells.co.uk/bookshop/product/The-Image-of-the-Black-in-Western-Art-Volume-III-From-the-Age-of-Discovery-to-the-Age-of-Abolition-by-Jean-Michel-Massing-David-Bindman-He nry-Louis-Gates/9780674052628
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
But considering what the bible says about the lineage of the Judah, Simeon, and the other 10 tribes what are the chances they are "all" redheads????


Unless the red head contingent are Syrian converts?

---

For your question. It's unlikely. You need to see the tribes mentioned like gangs, that's the equivalent of the brotherhood.

And see as I predicted. A slew of images scarped off from the internet would come, to make a point. It's all ways the same tactic of baseless and endless babble.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:


Medieval Jewish depictions... red beards... funny hats...








Funny hat second Syrian from the left.. red beards...


ANCIENT CONVERTS

---

Why do they look nothing like their "ancestors"?



https://www.academia.edu/38207809/With_and_Without_Straw_How_Israelite_Slaves_Made_Bricks

*********

"These fair-haired Jews created a problem for anthropologists. It is a question whence these 'Indo-Germanic" Jews, as Virchow called them, have found their way into a the midst of a dark complexioned race like the Jews..."

"The Jews: a Study of Race and Environment" by Maurice Fishberg, page 64 (1911) Scribner's

https://books.google.com/books?id=3aB5AAAAMAAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&hl=en

*********

"The Jews appear to have been originally a dark-skinned and woolly-haired race;"

‪"Johnson's Natural History: Volume 1" ‬by Samuel Griswold Goodrich, page 42 (1868) A.J. Johnson

https://books.google.com/books/about/Johnson_s_Natural_History.html?id=YzhKAAAAYAAJ
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
Not to interrupt what Tukuler thinks
Moulay Hassan is the Crown Prince of Morocco.

Looks like a typical admixed African American even more so he looks Dominican... but if geneticist did their thing he would come back as north african/eurasian... ..as you can see he and Meg shaking hands there is no difference in their complexions... and considering that his mom is a red head



The African genes are strong in this royal family..


Moulay was transfixed ... I think he was in love..

---

The Royal Fam of Morocco is of Arab descent (so is said). They probably do have African ancestry as well. It's hard to not have that after centuries.
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


Bristol Psalter
11th century Greek

This pocket-sized (105 x 85 mm) 11th-century manuscript contains the Greek text of the Psalms followed by the biblical Odes. It is an example of a group of manuscripts known as ‘marginal psalters’, so called because the margins are lavishly decorated with images related to the text of the Psalms. Many of these images depict scenes from the life of Christ, and in so doing link the words of the Old Testament to the Christian message of the Gospels.

---

This is beautiful.

quote:

---

The medieval fiddle emerged in 10th-century Europe, deriving from the Byzantine lira (Greek: λύρα, Latin: lira, English: lyre), a bowed string instrument of the Byzantine Empire and ancestor of most European bowed instruments.[5][6]

The first recorded reference to the bowed lira was in the 9th century by the Persian geographer Ibn Khurradadhbih (d. 911); in his lexicographical discussion of instruments he cited the lira (lūrā) as a typical instrument of the Byzantines and equivalent to the rabāb played in the Islamic Empires.[7]

Lira spread widely westward to Europe; in the 11th and 12th centuries European writers use the terms fiddle and lira interchangeably when referring to bowed instruments.[5]

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiddle
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Medieval Jewish depictions... red beards... funny hats... OR Red beards Wodaabe 'Red Fulani' hats
...
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
^^^^^^^^^ this! But I did not want to post it because of "fulani madness" ..lol..

But there is speculation that Fulani are part Syrian descent


@ISH GEBER


Do I buy that that slave worker is an actual syrian? Like the ones bearing gifts??

Not sure..the slave looks arabic/shemtic to me.. the Syrians look Sycthian or Celtic

quote:

---

Scythians red hair
Culturally Red
As early as the fifth century BC, Herodotus described the Budini, a Scythian tribe from the central western Eurasian steppes as having “grey eyes and red hair,”

---

quote:

---

In a war that lasted 30 years, the Scythians destroyed the Cimmerians and set themselves up as rulers of an empire stretching from west Persia through Syria and Judaea to the borders of Egypt.

---

https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/06/06/the-first-anti-jewish-caricature/


Retjenu (rṯnw; Reṯenu, Retenu), was an ancient Egyptian name for Canaan and Syria


A Retjenu. Tomb of Sobekhotep, 18th Dynasty Thebes.



 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Looks like the medieval Psalters' artists visualized
Hebrews one way and their contemporary Jews another.

=-=-=

The classical ancients knew two Syrian peoples.
LeukSyrians were the furthest north in what the
AEs called the land of the Retjenu or whatever.
Rekhmire's Syrians aren't monolithic. Zoom the
procession. These are medium and light skin folk
as expected north of Phoenicia. The AE written
caption says ... "the Great of Retenu of all the
northern regions upon the borders of Asia".

South of Sidon and Tyre are the medium and dark
skin folk. Shasu seem to have the blackest. Are
Shasu partially ancestral to Israelites? Yes at
what frequency compared to other south Levantines.




Purely imaginative Orientalist painting illustrating
Tamar, pale northern nearer Skythia type
Judah dark, southern nearer Ta Nehesi type




Rekhmire records a red beard and medium dark Syrian in line.
Note If both are Retjenu rather than two different Aamu tribes
they still differ in detail of hair and costume. Check their
feet and legs, hands, necks and faces. One man is dark one pale.


 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Fulani are speculated to be of partial Syrian descent...
tiglath pileser iii was called Pul
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 
@Yatunde Lisa, we first haver to understand who lived in the Levant, Syria and what time etc. There have been several populations over time.

quote:

---

In a war that lasted 30 years, the Scythians destroyed the Cimmerians and set themselves up as rulers of an empire stretching from west Persia through Syria and Judaea to the borders of Egypt. The Medes, who ruled Persia, attacked them and drove them out of Anatolia, leaving them finally in control of lands which stretched from the Persian border north through the Kuban and into southern Russia.

---

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Scythian
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
^^^^ the Red head dudes where slaves of the Retenu?

It is not adding up..
weird.

I am not believing in the red head Retenu... the majority of the pics Retenu look typically West Asiatic..

The Red heads maybe Philistines? who adopted the culture.. but red hair was only typical of Scythians at the time..

 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
ancestor of most European bowed instruments

typical Sub-Saharan bow
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
[QB] ^^^^ the Red head dudes where slaves of the Retenu?

It is not adding up..
weird.

I am not believing in the red head Retenu... the majority of the pics Retenu look typically West Asiatic..

The Red heads maybe Philistines? who adopted the culture.. but red hair was only typical of Scythians at the time..

---

Register 5: Procession of the vassal countries, Nubia and Retenu,
tomb of Rekhmire

tomb text:
Over Gold Weighing
{Reckoning1 of the gold , in order to fulfil all business of the
daily stipulation. Their number is myriads of hundred-thousands;
before the vizier . . . . . . . Rekhmire.
Over Goldsmiths and Silversmiths
Making all vessels for the divine limbs; multiplying vases of gold
and silver in every (style of) workmanship that endures forever.
Over Coppersmiths
755. Bringing the Asiatic copper which his majesty captured in the
victories in Retenu, in order to [cast] the [two doors] of the temple of
Amon in Karnak. Its pavement was overlaid with gold like the horizon
of heaven; by the governor of the (residence) city, and vizier.
They say: "The king, beautiful in monuments, Menkheperre (Thutmose 111),
given life forever; (as) he is (so) they are forever. . . . . . . . He repeats monuments in the house of his father."
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
^^^^ the Red head dudes where slaves of the Retenu?

It is not adding up..
weird.

I am not believing in the red head Retenu... the majority of the pics Retenu look typically West Asiatic..

The Red heads maybe Philistines? who adopted the culture.. but red hair was only typical of Scythians at the time..

---

I don't know how common red hair (1 receptor (MC1R)), is in the Levant, Crescent and Iran. And someone at some other page suggested that it could refer to "henna"?

quote:

---

henna (n.)
c. 1600, "dye or cosmetic from the henna plant," from Arabic hinna, name for the small thorny tree (Egyptian Privet), the leaves of which are used to make the reddish dye for the body or hair; said to be of Persian origin, from Arabic. Related: Hennaed (1860)

---

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=Henna
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
^^^^ the Red head dudes where slaves of the Retenu?

It is not adding up..
weird.

I am not believing in the red head Retenu... the majority of the pics Retenu look typically West Asiatic..

The Red heads maybe Philistines? who adopted the culture.. but red hair was only typical of Scythians at the time..

---

Register 5: Procession of the vassal countries, Nubia and Retenu,
tomb of Rekhmire

tomb text:
Over Gold Weighing
{Reckoning1 of the gold , in order to fulfil all business of the
daily stipulation. Their number is myriads of hundred-thousands;
before the vizier . . . . . . . Rekhmire.
Over Goldsmiths and Silversmiths
Making all vessels for the divine limbs; multiplying vases of gold
and silver in every (style of) workmanship that endures forever.
Over Coppersmiths
755. Bringing the Asiatic copper which his majesty captured in the
victories in Retenu, in order to [cast] the [two doors] of the temple of
Amon in Karnak. Its pavement was overlaid with gold like the horizon
of heaven; by the governor of the (residence) city, and vizier.
They say: "The king, beautiful in monuments, Menkheperre (Thutmose 111),
given life forever; (as) he is (so) they are forever. . . . . . . . He repeats monuments in the house of his father."

---

What is the origin of these metals they had with them? Gold, Silver and Copper?

We already know that gold mines were in the South (upper Egypt) in to Nubia. We can say the same for silver.

It's being said that the copper came from the Sinai, which would make sense.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
The red hair Retenu clothing is not as elaborate as the Dark skinned black haired Retenu..


They are POOR .. or slaves possibly scythian slaves of the West Asiatic Retenu..

Copper smiths would be Cyprus... but I don't think the Cypriots where red heads.. current Cypriots look typically north african berber..


Also the red beards have different beards.. and don't have big hair like the dark skinned retenu
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

I bet you're mad at the fact that you can't find any reconstructed or "white-washed" images of Psalter's. Clearly the people during his era knew these ancient civilizations were "black".

---

Not just mad, but BIG MAD.
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Looks like the medieval Psalters' artists visualized
Hebrews one way and their contemporary Jews another.

=-=-=

The classical ancients knew two Syrian peoples.
LeukSyrians were the furthest north in what the
AEs called the land of the Retjenu or whatever.
Rekhmire's Syrians aren't monolithic. Zoom the
procession. These are medium and light skin folk
as expected north of Phoenicia. The AE written
caption says ... "the Great of Retenu of all the
northern regions upon the borders of Asia".

South of Sidon and Tyre are the medium and dark
skin folk. Shasu seem to have the blackest. Are
Shasu partially ancestral to Israelites? Yes at
what frequency compared to other south Levantines.




Purely imaginative Orientalist painting illustrating
Tamar, pale northern nearer Skythia type
Judah dark, southern nearer Ta Nehesi type

[/img]


Rekhmire records a red beard and medium dark Syrian in line.
Note If both are Retjenu rather than two different Aamu tribes
they still differ in detail of hair and costume. Check their
feet and legs, hands, necks and faces. One man is dark one pale.




Somebody help me out on resolution

---

"Rekhmire's Syrians aren't monolithic." As I suspected and as was confirmed by one of the scholars in the 20 for 20 series.

Lioness, posted 09 April, 2018 01:49

https://osirisnet.net/tombes/nobles/rekhmire100/e_rekhmire100_03.htm
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Don't be silly if I was mad I wouldn't have posted that fiddle player
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
The red hair Retenu clothing is not as elaborate as the Dark skinned black haired Retenu..


They are POOR .. or slaves possibly scythian slaves of the West Asiatic Retenu..

Copper smiths would be Cyprus... but I don't think the Cypriots where red heads.. current Cypriots look typically north african berber..


Also the red beards have different beards.. and don't have big hair like the dark skinned retenu

---

As far as I know Retenu are only shown at that one tomb, Rekhmire. I could be wrong

You said "Dark skinned black haired Retenu" what figures are you specially referring to?
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
^^^^^^ you are WRONG...

just go to wiki


[QUOTE] "Rekhmire's Syrians aren't monolithic." As I suspected and as was confirmed by one of the scholars in the 20 for 20 series./QUOTE]

The easiest answer is that it is a mistake by the artist...

But I suspect Scytians from the steppes are part of Syrians but not "syrians" nor are they Canaanites.

The fact that this red head retenu have horses is a big clue they are in fact scythians
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Well, Hal Pulaaren are the direct descendants of
early-mid Holocene southeast Algeria 'Saharo-
Sudanese' herders with T13900 whatever gene
for lactase persistance all some thousands of
years before a Syria much less a Tiglath Pileser.

A genomic ancestry exemplary of Fulani was found
in the pre-historic Levant by ES' own 'Stro. It's
Syrians likely to be partially Fulani, afaisi.


Now that hat? Well funny how shared between
Syrian, medieval Ashkenazi, and modern Fulani.
Could the de Sola Pool family be of this Fula
Syro particular lineage?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
Fulani are speculated to be of partial Syrian descent...
tiglath pileser iii was called Pul

---

 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
WHY DIDN’T ISRAEL USE HORSES?

Deut. 17:16

Morning Meditation 7/6/16

Verse 16 says, “But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way..”

“Archeology has revealed that horses were commonly used in the armies and societies of all of the ancient nations of the Middle East, with the exception of Israel, until the reign of King Solomon approximately 970 B.C.”


kingdom of Ashkenaz was first associated with the Scythian region,

quote:

---

According to Jeremiah 51:27, a kingdom of Ashkenaz was to be called together with Ararat and Minni against Babylon, which reads:

Set ye up a standard in the land, blow the trumpet among the nations, prepare the nations against her [ie. Babylon], call together against her the kingdoms of Ararat, Minni, and Ashchenaz; appoint a captain against her; cause the horses to come up as the rough caterpillars.

According to the Encyclopaedia Biblica, "Ashkenaz must have been one of the migratory peoples which in the time of Esar-haddon, burst upon the northern provinces of Asia Minor, and upon Armenia. One branch of this great migration appears to have reached Lake Urumiyeh; for in the revolt which Esar-haddon chastised, the Mannai, who lived to the SW of that lake, sought the help of Ispakai 'of the land of Asguza,' a name (originally perhaps Asgunza) which the skepticism of Dillmann need not hinder us from identifying with Ashkenaz, and from considering as that of a horde from the north, of Indo-Germanic origin, which settled on the south of La

---

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
I dunno.

Solomon isn't historic.
Is it N"K has it Shlomo haMelek broke Torah law
by accumulating horses just like he did wives
and build temples for each sweety's deity.

But as Diop reminded the kings were no more
than paramount chiefs. Would the wife god
temples been more than easy to take apart
stone wall huts reused for other buildings
after the Great Schism?

Over a hundred years of 'biblical archaeology'.
Where these temples at? Judea's Temple as a
reality is vetted by a triumphal arch in Rome
who sacked it.


Never really paid attention to horse notices in TN"K.
See, this is why we need more members and more participants.
There's so many ideas need interested ones pursuing them.


BTW
Syria and Canaan are different regions of the
Levant, ie, east Mediterranean coast. In today's
terms Canaan is Palestine/Israel and Lebanon.
Syria is, well, Syria, next stop tectonic Asia.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Looks like the medieval Psalters' artists visualized
Hebrews one way and their contemporary Jews another.

=-=-=

The classical ancients knew two Syrian peoples.
LeukSyrians were the furthest north in what the
AEs called the land of the Retjenu or whatever.
Rekhmire's Syrians aren't monolithic. Zoom the
procession. These are medium and light skin folk
as expected north of Phoenicia. The AE written
caption says ... "the Great of Retenu of all the
northern regions upon the borders of Asia".

South of Sidon and Tyre are the medium and dark
skin folk. Shasu seem to have the blackest. Are
Shasu partially ancestral to Israelites? Yes at
what frequency compared to other south Levantines.




Purely imaginative Orientalist painting illustrating
Tamar, pale northern nearer Skythia type
Judah dark, southern nearer Ta Nehesi type

[/img]


Rekhmire records a red beard and medium dark Syrian in line.
Note If both are Retjenu rather than two different Aamu tribes
they still differ in detail of hair and costume. Check their
feet and legs, hands, necks and faces. One man is dark one pale.




Somebody help me out on resolution

---

"Rekhmire's Syrians aren't monolithic." As I suspected and as was confirmed by one of the scholars in the 20 for 20 series.

Lioness, posted 09 April, 2018 01:49

https://osirisnet.net/tombes/nobles/rekhmire100/e_rekhmire100_03.htm

---

Tukuler is correct.

"According to Hesychius, the Island of Lesbos was anciently called Ethiopia, and its people Ethiopes; having been colonized, perhaps from the Syrian coast. The Leuco-Syri, or White Syrians seem to have received the name as a distinctive term by which any confusion between them and their darker neighbours to the South might be avoided."

"Encyclopædia Metropolitana; or, Universal Dictionary of Knowledge" by Edward Smedley, Hugh James Rose, and Henry John Rose, page 642 (1845)

https://books.google.com/books/about/Encyclopaedia_Metropolitana_Difform_Falt.html?id=Wg7MCr21aDQC
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
^^^^^^ you are WRONG...

just go to wiki

quote:

---

"Rekhmire's Syrians aren't monolithic." As I suspected and as was confirmed by one of the scholars in the 20 for 20 series.

---

The easiest answer is that it is a mistake by the artist...

---

Asiatics in Egyptian art are called Aamu.
They are in a lot of Egyptian art.
However Retenu are a very specific type of Asiatic that doesn't appear in other tombs outside of Rekhmire much if at all. There may be other types of Asiatics in different scenes at Rekhmire but this scene below, the figures with the long white robes are Retenu.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

The fact that this red head retenu have horses is a big clue they are in fact scythians

---

O.k. if that is the case then maybe there is no mistake.







 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
"Thus the indigenous or 'black' tribes of Arabia were those who in ancient times emigrated from Africa during the neolithic era, approximately four to five thousand B.C., and were the earliest purveyors and dispersers of the Semitic dialects especially of the early Semitic which prevailed in the area of Syria and Mesopotamia as well."

"Golden Age of the Moor" by Ivan van Sertima, page 105 (1992) Transaction Publishers

https://archive.org/details/49153823GoldenAgeOfTheMoorIvanVanSertima/mode/2up
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Tukuler is correct.

"According to Hesychius, the Island of Lesbos was anciently called Ethiopia, and its people Ethiopes; having been colonized, perhaps from the Syrian coast. The Leuco-Syri, or White Syrians seem to have received the name as a distinctive term by which any confusion between them and their darker neighbours to the South might be avoided."

"Encyclopædia Metropolitana; or, Universal Dictionary of Knowledge" by Edward Smedley, Hugh James Rose, and Henry John Rose, page 642 (1845)

https://books.google.com/books/about/Encyclopaedia_Metropolitana_Difform_Falt.html?id=Wg7MCr21aDQC

---

I am listen to the scholars 20 FOR 20 #17 series, with Russell Gmirkin "Greek connections with the old testament".

Russell Gmirkin explains something important at 23:13 about the invasions from the North by the Assyrians into the Northern kingdom of Israel. He tells that they took hostage (deported) with them the ruling class (educated people, priests etc), and brought in a new group from Babylonia. But shortly before that from 21:40, he expains the Assyrian and Greek influence on Deuteronomy 28 curses. They wrote themselves in that story with their already in existing culture of rituals with blessings and curses. This explains why the Lachish wrote a different type of Hebrew. This explains why the story of Moses is hypothetical and why there is no original Demotic or Lachish-Paleo-Hebrew writings of these older stories. Perhaps it was not even written by them in Demotic or Lachish-Paleo-Hebrew, but by Assyrian spies. However, it also explains why mistakes were made because the Assyrians didn't know the whole story. They on purpuse could have been duped as well. And perhaps for this reason there's an oral tradition next to the Babylonian Talmud. Different elements (books/ tablets) were put together, the way Fab Five Freddy put the elements of Hip Hop. They already existed, but he put them together as the pillars of Hip Hop. As people started to write themselves into this history.

Suspected is that we are misguided and are looking at this "new group" as indigenous or the "original Semites"? Basically we should look at them like "spies" who infiltrated the Kingdom of Israel and later Egypt, while posing as Semites. Posted 27 March, 2021 14:58 and posted 27 March, 2021 08:06.

https://youtu.be/xNzBYVT_2rQ?t=1391

And this is how they ended up in Egypt. It was basically a war strategy, the Trojan horse, which became the fall of Egypt. And this is how "Egypt got cursed" and with that it's people. Russell also gives an indirect example of Abra (Avra)/ Abrah who later became Abraham and the land of Ham.

quote:

---

3 גוַיֹּ֣אמֶר יְהֹוָ֔ה כַּֽאֲשֶׁ֥ר הָלַ֛ךְ עַבְדִּ֥י יְשַׁעְיָ֖הוּ עָר֣וֹם וְיָחֵ֑ף שָׁלֹ֚שׁ שָׁנִים֙ א֣וֹת וּמוֹפֵ֔ת עַל־מִצְרַ֖יִם וְעַל־כּֽוּשׁ:

3 And the Lord said, "As My servant Isaiah has gone naked and barefoot for three years, as a sign and a symbol for Egypt and for Cush,


4 דכֵּ֣ן יִנְהַ֣ג מֶֽלֶךְ־אַ֠שּׁוּר אֶת־שְׁבִ֨י מִצְרַ֜יִם וְאֶת־גָּל֥וּת כּ֛וּשׁ נְעָרִ֥ים וּזְקֵנִ֖ים עָר֣וֹם וְיָחֵ֑ף וַֽחֲשׂוּפַ֥י שֵׁ֖ת עֶרְוַ֥ת מִצְרָֽיִם:

4 So shall the king of Assyria lead the captivity of Egypt and the exile of Cush, youths and old men, naked and barefoot, with bare buttocks, the shame of Egypt.

5 הוְחַתּ֖וּ וָבֹ֑שׁוּ מִכּוּשׁ֙ מַבָּטָ֔ם וּמִן־מִצְרַ֖יִם תִּפְאַרְתָּֽם:

5 And they shall be broken and ashamed because of Cush, their expectation, and because of Egypt, their boasting.

---

Chabad.org

quote:

---

3 וַיֹּ֣אמֶר יְהוָ֔ה כַּאֲשֶׁ֥ר הָלַ֛ךְ עַבְדִּ֥י יְשַׁעְיָ֖הוּ עָר֣וֹם וְיָחֵ֑ף שָׁלֹ֤שׁ שָׁנִים֙ א֣וֹת וּמוֹפֵ֔ת עַל־מִצְרַ֖יִם וְעַל־כּֽוּשׁ׃

3 And now the LORD said, “It is a sign and a portent for Egypt and Nubia. Just as My servant Isaiah has gone naked and barefoot for three years,

4 כֵּ֣ן יִנְהַ֣ג מֶֽלֶךְ־אַ֠שּׁוּר אֶת־שְׁבִ֨י מִצְרַ֜יִם וְאֶת־גָּל֥וּת כּ֛וּשׁ נְעָרִ֥ים וּזְקֵנִ֖ים עָר֣וֹם וְיָחֵ֑ף וַחֲשׂוּפַ֥י שֵׁ֖ת עֶרְוַ֥ת מִצְרָֽיִם׃

4 so shall the king of Assyria drive off the captives of Egypt and the exiles of Nubia, young and old, naked and barefoot and with bared buttocks—to the shame of Egypt!

5 וְחַתּ֖וּ וָבֹ֑שׁוּ מִכּוּשׁ֙ מַבָּטָ֔ם וּמִן־מִצְרַ֖יִם תִּפְאַרְתָּֽם׃

4 And they shall be dismayed and chagrined because of Nubia their hope and Egypt their boast.

---

Sefaria.org

quote:

---

"The earliest certain link with Egypt is 664 B.C., the date of the Assyrian sack of the Egyptian capital at Thebes. Although it is often possible to locate earlier events quite precisely relative to each other, neither surviving contemporary documents nor scientific dating methods such as carbon 14, dendrochronology, thermoluminescence, and archaeoastronomy are able to provide the required accuracy to fix these events absolutely in time."

---

https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ht/02/waa.html

quote:

---

Psychological warfare

The Assyrians fully appreciated the use of terrorizing their enemies. To conserve manpower and rapidly move on to solve Assyria's multiple problems, the Assyrians preferred to accept the surrender of their opponents or else destroy their ability to resist a surrender. This in part explains their offensive strategy and tactics.

Deportations

1) Psychological warfare: the possibility of deportation would have terrorized the people;
2) Integration: a multi-ethnic population base in each region would have curbed nationalist sentiment, making the running of the Empire smoother;
3) Preservation of human resources: rather than being butchered, the people could serve as slave labor or as conscripts in the army.

By the 9th century BC, the Assyrians made it a habit of regularly deporting thousands of restless subjects to other lands.[36] Re-settling these people in the Assyrian homeland would have undermined the powerbase of the Assyrian Empire if they rebelled again. As a result, Assyrian deportation involved removing one enemy population and settling them into another. Below is a list of deportations carried out by Assyrian Kings:[34]

744 BC: Tiglath Pileser III deports 65,000 people from Iran to the Assyrian-Babylonian border at the Diyala river
742 BC: Tiglath Pileser III deports 30,000 people from Hamath, Syria and into the Zagros mountains in the east.
721 BC: Sargon II (claimed) deports 27,290 people from Samaria, Israel and disperses them throughout the Empire. However, it is likely that his ousted predecessor, Shalmaneser V ordered the deportation
707 BC: Sargon II deports 108,000 Chaldeans and Babylonians from the Babylonian region
703 BC: Sennacherib deports 208,000 people from Babylon
Tiglath Pileser III re-introduced deportation on a grand scale, deporting tens, even hundreds of thousands of people. Deportations were also coupled with colonization; see above for more details.

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_the_Neo-Assyrian_Empire#Deportations

quote:

---

Confusion of tongues

The confusion of tongues (confusio linguarum) is the origin myth for the fragmentation of human languages described in Genesis 11:1–9, as a result of the construction of the Tower of Babel. Prior to this event, humanity was stated to speak a single language. The preceding Genesis 10:5 states that the descendants of Japheth, Gomer, and Javan dispersed "with their own tongues," creating an apparent contradiction. Scholars have been debating or explaining this apparent contradiction for centuries.[41]

The phrase "Tower of Babel" does not appear in the Bible; it is always "the city and the tower" (אֶת-הָעִיר וְאֶת-הַמִּגְדָּל‎) or just "the city" (הָעִיר‎). The original derivation of the name Babel (also the Hebrew name for Babylon) is uncertain. The native, Akkadian name of the city was Bāb-ilim, meaning "gate of God". However, that form and interpretation itself are now usually thought to be the result of an Akkadian folk etymology applied to an earlier form of the name, Babilla, of unknown meaning and probably non-Semitic origin.[7][8] According to the Bible, the city received the name "Babel" from the Hebrew verb בָּלַ֥ל (bālal), meaning to jumble or to confuse

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel#Etymology


I suspect that in Islam they had their own oral traditions and memories passed down, and that is how we ended up with the Quran, which explains why some of the writings are different in interpretation. A little internal dispute.


It's a somewhat expensive book, but you can read "Berossus and Genesis, Manetho and Exodus: Hellenistic Histories and the Date of the Pentateuch" by Russell E. Gmirkin, on Goodreads.com. It's also on Google Reads.

There is some criticism to his work and instead of tip toeing he should have said that he is not familiar with Africana studies, instead of saying that there is no evidence of African influence into the Bible.

Pastor Bennett did a wonderful lecture and breakdown on this.

SCHOLARS 20 FOR 20 #15 PASTOR BENNETT " MISPLACED HATE HOW WHITE SUPREMACY DISTORTS BLACK HISTORY"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Gmirkin#Criticism
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 
Read the above.^ And that is why there's an oral tradition next to the Babylonian Talmud.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
^^^^^^ you are WRONG...

just go to wiki

quote:

---

"Rekhmire's Syrians aren't monolithic." As I suspected and as was confirmed by one of the scholars in the 20 for 20 series.

---

The easiest answer is that it is a mistake by the artist...

---

Asiatics in Egyptian art are called Aamu.
They are in a lot of Egyptian art.
However Retenu are a very specific type of Asiatic that doesn't appear in other tombs outside of Rekhmire much if at all. There may be other types of Asiatics in different scenes at Rekhmire but this scene below, the figures with the long white robes are Retenu.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

The fact that this red head retenu have horses is a big clue they are in fact scythians

---

O.k. if that is the case then maybe there is no mistake.

---

 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 
Great observation. Above are people with horses and a small elephant, which is weird in my opinion. I suspect these people infiltrated.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
WHY DIDN’T ISRAEL USE HORSES?

Deut. 17:16

Morning Meditation 7/6/16

Verse 16 says, “But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way..”

“Archeology has revealed that horses were commonly used in the armies and societies of all of the ancient nations of the Middle East, with the exception of Israel, until the reign of King Solomon approximately 970 B.C.”


kingdom of Ashkenaz was first associated with the Scythian region,

quote:

---

According to Jeremiah 51:27, a kingdom of Ashkenaz was to be called together with Ararat and Minni against Babylon, which reads:

Set ye up a standard in the land, blow the trumpet among the nations, prepare the nations against her [ie. Babylon], call together against her the kingdoms of Ararat, Minni, and Ashchenaz; appoint a captain against her; cause the horses to come up as the rough caterpillars.

According to the Encyclopaedia Biblica, "Ashkenaz must have been one of the migratory peoples which in the time of Esar-haddon, burst upon the northern provinces of Asia Minor, and upon Armenia. One branch of this great migration appears to have reached Lake Urumiyeh; for in the revolt which Esar-haddon chastised, the Mannai, who lived to the SW of that lake, sought the help of Ispakai 'of the land of Asguza,' a name (originally perhaps Asgunza) which the skepticism of Dillmann need not hinder us from identifying with Ashkenaz, and from considering as that of a horde from the north, of Indo-Germanic origin, which settled on the south of La

---

---

 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
"Thus the indigenous or 'black' tribes of Arabia were those who in ancient times emigrated from Africa during the neolithic era, approximately four to five thousand B.C., and were the earliest purveyors and dispersers of the Semitic dialects especially of the early Semitic which prevailed in the area of Syria and Mesopotamia as well."

"Golden Age of the Moor" by Ivan van Sertima, page 105 (1992) Transaction Publishers

---

It's important to look at this from an investigators point of view, doing investigation into a crime scene. By that I mean you collect data from the scene and test it chronologically. But yeah, Ivan was correct Posted 25 March, 2021 17:57.

quote:

---

"These results indicate that the ancestor of all Semitic languages in our dataset was being spoken in the Near East no earlier than approximately 7400 YBP, after having after having diverged from Afroasiatic in Africa"

(i) Semitic had an Early Bronze Age origin (approx. 5750 YBP) in the Levant, followed by an expansion of Akkadian into Mesopotamia;

(ii) Central and South Semitic diverged earlier than previously thought throughout the Levant during the Early to Middle Bronze Age transition; and

(iii) Ethiosemitic arose as the result of a single, possibly pre-Aksumite, introduction of a lineage from southern Arabia to the Horn of Africa approximately 2800 YBP.

---

~Andrew Kitchen, Christopher Ehret2, Shiferaw Assefa2 and Connie J. Mulligan

Bayesian phylogenetic analysis of Semitic languages identifies an Early Bronze Age origin of Semitic in the Near East
Proc. R. Soc. B (2009) 276, 2703–2710
doi:10.1098/rspb.2009.0408




Ugaritic is basically proto-Arabic.

A Proper View of Arabic, Semitic, and More

Gary A. Rendsburg, University Pennsylvania
Aaron D. Rubin, Rutgers State University
John Huehnergard, Harvard University

"The author’s main contention is that the roots of Arabic are to be found in the language(s) of the Late Bronze Age Levant (Ugaritic especially)."
https://jewishstudies.rutgers.edu/docman/rendsburg/334-jaos-proper-view/file

https://archive.org/details/49153823GoldenAgeOfTheMoorIvanVanSertima/mode/2up
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 
Thanks,

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

---

There is so much metaphor in this.

quote:

---

Joseph, in the Old Testament, son of the patriarch Jacob and his wife Rachel. As Jacob’s name became synonymous with all Israel, so that of Joseph was eventually equated with all the tribes that made up the northern kingdom. According to tradition, his bones were buried at Shechem, oldest of the northern shrines (Joshua 24:32). His story is told in Genesis (37–50)

Joseph, most beloved of Jacob’s sons, is hated by his envious brothers. Angry and jealous of Jacob’s gift to Joseph, a resplendent “coat of many colours,” the brothers seize him and sell him to a party of Ishmaelites, or Midianites, who carry him to Egypt. There Joseph eventually gains the favour of the pharaoh of Egypt by his interpretation of a dream and obtains a high place in the pharaoh’s kingdom. His acquisition of grain supplies enables Egypt to withstand a famine. Driven by the same famine, his brothers journey from Canaan to Egypt to obtain food. They prostrate themselves before Joseph but do not recognize him. After Joseph achieves a reconciliation with his brothers, he invites Jacob’s whole household to come to Goshen in Egypt, where a settlement is provided for the family and their flocks. His brothers’ sale of Joseph into slavery thus proves providential in the end, since it protected the family from famine. The family’s descendants grew and multiplied into the Hebrews, who would eventually depart from Egypt for Israel.

---

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Joseph-biblical-figure

quote:

---

"Joseph was one of the twelve tribes of Israel", a son of Jacob and his wife Rachel. Known as “the righteous one,” he was favored by his father (who gave him a special colored coat) and sold by his brothers to Egypt, where he ultimately became ruler of the land, second only to King Pharaoh.

Joseph was born in the Mesopotamian town of Haran, to his parents Jacob and Rachel. At the age of six,2 he left Haran along with his family and journeyed to the land of Canaan, eventually settling in Hebron.

Seizing their chance, the brothers threw the unsuspecting Joseph into a pit. A short while later they spotted an Arab caravan passing the scene, and the brothers sold Joseph to the traders. He was eventually brought to Egypt, where he was sold to Potiphar, one of King Pharaoh’s ministers.

[…]

Following this heartfelt reunion, Jacob and his family settled in the Goshen section of Egypt. This series of events served as the backdrop for Israel’s ultimate enslavement in Egypt and the subsequent Exodus.

[…]

Joseph ruled Egypt for a total of eighty years, until his death at the age of 110. Before his passing, he made his brothers promise to take his coffin along with them when they would eventually leave Egypt for the Promised Land. After his death, he was embalmed and laid to rest in Egypt.6 Indeed, when the Jews left Egypt many years later, Moses made sure to locate Joseph’s tomb and carry his remains to the Land of Israel.7

Joseph was subsequently buried in Shecheme (known today as Nablus), and his resting place is visited until today.

Behind the Name

Joseph was born to Rachel after many years of infertility. She named her son Joseph, Yosef in Hebrew, which means “increase,” expressing her wish that G‑d grant her an additional son.9 (Her prayers were indeed fulfilled, as she later begot Benjamin.) Additionally, Yosef is similar to asaf, to “bring in” and “conceal,” for with his birth, Rachel’s shame in being childless was obscured.10


Scripture states that when Joseph’s brothers first stood before him in Egypt, “Joseph recognized his brothers, but they did not recognize him.” The commentators explain that when Joseph left his brothers he had not yet grown a beard, and that is why they did not recognize their now-bearded brother.

There is a deeper meaning to this passage. In the eyes of Joseph’s brothers, involvement in material pursuits could not be reconciled with achieving spiritual heights, which they felt could only be attained through withdrawal from society.15 They could not imagine their brother as remaining righteous in a land as corrupt as Egypt. Joseph, however, demonstrated the ability to retain his integrity despite being in a leadership position. 16

---

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/143035/jewish/The-Story-of-Joseph-in-the-Bible.htm
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

A demigod or demi-god is a minor deity, or a mortal or immortal who is the offspring of a god and a human, or a figure who has attained divine status after death. Figuratively, it is used to describe a person whose talents or abilities are so superlative that they appear to approach being divine.

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demigod

quote:

---

Abrahamic religions often depict them as benevolent celestial intermediaries between God (or Heaven) and humanity.[1][2] Other roles include protectors and guides for humans, and servants of God.[3] Abrahamic religions describe angelic hierarchies, which vary by sect and religion. Some angels have specific names (such as Gabriel or Michael) or titles (such as seraph or archangel). Those expelled from Heaven are called fallen angels, distinct from the heavenly host.

Pentateuch

Three angels hosted by Abraham, Ludovico Carracci (c. 1610-1612), Bologna, Pinacoteca Nazionale.

Tobias and the Angel by Filippino Lippi, created between circa 1472 and circa 1482.
The Torah uses the Hebrew terms מלאך אלהים (mal'āk̠ 'ĕlōhîm; "messenger of God"), מלאך יהוה (mal'āk̠ YHWH; "messenger of the Lord"), בני אלהים (bənē 'ĕlōhîm; "sons of God") and הקודשים (haqqôd̠əšîm; "the holy ones") to refer to beings traditionally interpreted as angels. Later texts use other terms, such as העליונים (hā'elyônîm; "the upper ones").

The term 'מלאך' ('mal'āk̠') is also used in other books of the Tanakh. Depending on the context, the Hebrew word may refer to a human messenger or to a supernatural messenger. A human messenger might be a prophet or priest, such as Malachi, "my messenger"; the Greek superscription in the Septuagint translation states the Book of Malachi was written "by the hand of his messenger" ἀγγέλου (angélu). Examples of a supernatural messenger[17] are the "Malak YHWH," who is either a messenger from God,[18] an aspect of God (such as the Logos),[19] or God himself as the messenger (the "theophanic angel.")

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel



















 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 


John James Barralet, "The Apotheosis of Washington" (1802-1816)



The Harmony between Religion and Science, a ceiling fresco by Paul Troger, 1735.
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Are you sure about your identity and people's history?
Have you studied it and taught it to your people?
Discussed it and picked it apart with other scholars?

You are the one who is unsure. Don'y xfer it to me.

I take no responsibility for your distortion of my words.

I told you to ask me for clarification and expansion.

I cannot clarify or expand on what originates from your imagination.

What do you feign to not understand about al-Murabitûn
suppressing the last Jewish states from my part of Africa 900 yrs ago?

---

You are using this less known word now so people may not know who you refer to, Almoravids aka al-Murabitûn. It is my understanding that Jews were doing alright under them but were oppressed or more oppressed when the Almohads, another Moroccan Berber group took over al-Murabitûn territory in the Mahgreb 1147 but the time period we are talking about is the years immediately prior to 1462, perhaps this corresponds to in time period to the Marinid dynasty, successors to the Almohad
1244-1465


But apart from which particular berber rulers were in control the Mahreb and al-Andalous
and Jews under there rule are we to assume that Jews in Spain and Lisbon at the time are the same Jews who had been in Morocco 900 yrs ago?
Is there evidence clarifying if these are the same people?

jump to around 100 year after the 1462 expulsion to 1570 because there is this painting



Light skinned Jews here, dressed in black in Lisbon. What does this painting tell us?

Does it tell us that around the time of the 1462 expulsion that the Jews of Portugal were not the berber Jews if the Mahreb?
Or maybe there were some berber Jews in Portugal also in 1461, 60, 59, etc but who were most of the Jews in Portugal at the time?
Because there is proximity to Africa and with a short distance across the Mediterranean Sea that does not necessarily mean their ancestors were Jews of the Maghreb. They could have been or the ancestors of the Jews of Portugal in the mid 15th century had come there from somewhere east of them, coming from a route along the south of Europe, and before it Turkey and then eventually beginning in the Levant.
They could even be the Jewish ancestors of the Jews in the Mahreb
> or the reverse
> or not directly related without close common ancestors post-destruction of the temple

---

I am now at the most controversial in the series, thus far. SCHOLARS 20 FOR 20 #18 JONATHAN SCHORSCH "JEWS AND BLACKS IN THE MODERN WORLD".

Jonathan Schorsch: "The Bible period is super complicated. The Bible period is not even Judaism, I'd call it Israelite religion. It's a whole different ball game, … The Rabbi's remade Judaism."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv_GVk7zFfc&t=843s


Tobias Smollett - The Critical Review, Or, Annals of Literature, Volume 57

quote:

---

This explanation may also elucidate the situation in the Amsterdam (Spanish-Portuguese) Jewish community of the 17th century in regard to the black and mulatto Jews (negros e mulatos judeos). They were buried in a separate section of the Jewish cemetery and they were not called to the Torah in the synagogue service; their women could sit in the women’s gallery in the synagogue only in the back rows. “For the most part, these blacks and mulattos were slaves and servants who had converted to Judaism and lived on the margins of the Jewish community

---

cambridge.org

quote:

---

Some Ga peoples believe that they were part of Israel- migrating from south through Uganda, then along the Congo River, westward through Cameroon, Nigeria, Benin, Togo and finally to Greater Accra.

---

https://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/features/A-True-History-of-The-Ga-Peoples-287636

quote:

---

The Ga Adangebe started off in Egypt in a city called Goshen. Then they began to leave Egypt during 672-525 B.C. On that journey, they crossed Ethiopia and moved into Nigeria. Again they migrated across West Africa and finally stopped in Ghana, which became their permanent home.

(Ga-Adangbe people, Origin and History, 2013 n.d)

---

https://gaadagbe.weebly.com/history.html

quote:

---

Where do the Ga-Adangbe come from?

The Ga-Adangbe came from a city in Egypt called Goshen. The group stayed there for some years, before deciding to leave the city during 672-525 B.C. During that journey, they crossed Ethiopia and then moved to Nigeria. They later migrated to West Africa and eventually stopped in Ghana, which became their permanent home.

---

https://yen.com.gh/171559-ga-adangbe-tribe-language-traditional-wear-dances-food-religion.html

quote:

---

The land of Goshen (Hebrew: אֶרֶץ גֹּשֶׁן‎ or ארץ גושן‎ Eretz Gošen) is named in the Bible as the place in Egypt given to the Hebrews by the pharaoh of Joseph (Book of Genesis, Genesis 45:9–10), and the land from which they later left Egypt at the time of the Exodus. It was located in the eastern Delta of the Nile, lower Egypt; perhaps at or near Avaris, the seat of power of the Hyksos kings.

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Goshen
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

---

this is the Asiatic tribute at Huy, TT 40 reconstruction by Nina de Garis Davies
possibly Aegean due to kilts but most resembling Syrians, not sure. Some Amorites?

Can't find the actual wall photo but many Huy wall photos here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/manna4u/albums/72157665011702090/

______________________________________

more reconstruction:


http://www.karadenizolay.com/cevre-ve-yasam/denizler-altinda-arkeoloji-h261.html
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
They are Syrians with beer bellies..

quote:

---

quote:
Some Ga peoples believe that they were part of Israel- migrating from south through Uganda, then along the Congo River, westward through Cameroon, Nigeria, Benin, Togo and finally to Greater Accra.
https://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/features/A-True-History-of-The-Ga-Peoples-287636


quote:
The Ga Adangebe started off in Egypt in a city called Goshen. Then they began to leave Egypt during 672-525 B.C. On that journey, they crossed Ethiopia and moved into Nigeria. Again they migrated across West Africa and finally stopped in Ghana, which became their permanent home.

(Ga-Adangbe people, Origin and History, 2013 n.d)
https://gaadagbe.weebly.com/history.html

quote:
Where do the Ga-Adangbe come from?

The Ga-Adangbe came from a city in Egypt called Goshen. The group stayed there for some years, before deciding to leave the city during 672-525 B.C. During that journey, they crossed Ethiopia and then moved to Nigeria. They later migrated to West Africa and eventually stopped in Ghana, which became their permanent home.
https://yen.com.gh/171559-ga-adangbe-tribe-language-traditional-wear-dances-food-religion.html


quote:
The land of Goshen (Hebrew: אֶרֶץ גֹּשֶׁן‎ or ארץ גושן‎ Eretz Gošen) is named in the Bible as the place in Egypt given to the Hebrews by the pharaoh of Joseph (Book of Genesis, Genesis 45:9–10), and the land from which they later left Egypt at the time of the Exodus. It was located in the eastern Delta of the Nile, lower Egypt; perhaps at or near Avaris, the seat of power of the Hyksos kings.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Goshen

---

The Ga, The Ewe or ( Everh's or Ivri) & Yoruba are all related tribes Ewe & Ga's scattered from Ile IFe..

The Anlo-Ewes and their immediate neighbours
Author: Charles M K Mamattah
Publisher: Accra, Ghana : Volta Research Publications : [1976]
Series: History of the Eves; Ewes of West Africa, v. 1.
Edition/Format: Print book : English






 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
"Thus the indigenous or 'black' tribes of Arabia were those who in ancient times emigrated from Africa during the neolithic era, approximately four to five thousand B.C., and were the earliest purveyors and dispersers of the Semitic dialects especially of the early Semitic which prevailed in the area of Syria and Mesopotamia as well."

"Golden Age of the Moor" by Ivan van Sertima, page 105 (1992) Transaction Publishers

---

It's important to look at this from an investigators point of view, doing investigation into a crime scene. By that I mean you collect data from the scene and test it chronologically. But yeah, Ivan was correct Posted 25 March, 2021 17:57.

quote:

---

"These results indicate that the ancestor of all Semitic languages in our dataset was being spoken in the Near East no earlier than approximately 7400 YBP, after having after having diverged from Afroasiatic in Africa"

(i) Semitic had an Early Bronze Age origin (approx. 5750 YBP) in the Levant, followed by an expansion of Akkadian into Mesopotamia;

(ii) Central and South Semitic diverged earlier than previously thought throughout the Levant during the Early to Middle Bronze Age transition; and

(iii) Ethiosemitic arose as the result of a single, possibly pre-Aksumite, introduction of a lineage from southern Arabia to the Horn of Africa approximately 2800 YBP.

---

~Andrew Kitchen, Christopher Ehret2, Shiferaw Assefa2 and Connie J. Mulligan

Bayesian phylogenetic analysis of Semitic languages identifies an Early Bronze Age origin of Semitic in the Near East
Proc. R. Soc. B (2009) 276, 2703–2710
doi:10.1098/rspb.2009.0408




Ugaritic is basically proto-Arabic.

A Proper View of Arabic, Semitic, and More

Gary A. Rendsburg, University Pennsylvania
Aaron D. Rubin, Rutgers State University
John Huehnergard, Harvard University

"The author’s main contention is that the roots of Arabic are to be found in the language(s) of the Late Bronze Age Levant (Ugaritic especially)."
https://jewishstudies.rutgers.edu/docman/rendsburg/334-jaos-proper-view/file

https://archive.org/details/49153823GoldenAgeOfTheMoorIvanVanSertima/mode/2up

---

Thank you for this. I will definitely be using this info
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Painting From 945 AD Spain Depicts Christ and Angels as Black People

This painting was created in the year 945 AD, before the european renaissance which began around 1300 AD. During the renaissance, europeans destroyed all black images and replaced them with their own.




From the book "Early Spanish Manuscript Illumination" by John Williams, page 54

"Moralia in Job of 945"

Christ in Majesty

Christ is shown enthroned between two Cherubs, within a great circular firmament suspended from the hands of two Seraphs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commentary_on_Job_of_945

---

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Todah rabbah hhaber
for cross vetting valid history.

Though i'd rather you said
what Tukuler posted is correct.
I just bought that authenticity
since confusion was in the air.

It seemed ppl weren't recognizing
Retjenu are only one set of Aamu
or that Retjenu aren't only one tribe.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Tukuler is correct.

"According to [A]esychius, the Island of Lesbos was anciently called Ethiopia, and its people Ethiopes; having been colonized, perhaps from the Syrian coast. The Leuco-Syri, or White Syrians seem to have received the name as a distinctive term by which any confusion between them and their darker neighbours to the South might be avoided."

"Encyclopædia Metropolitana; or, Universal Dictionary of Knowledge" by Edward Smedley, Hugh James Rose, and Henry John Rose, page 642 (1845)

https://books.google.com/books/about/Encyclopaedia_Metropolitana_Difform_Falt.html?id=Wg7MCr21aDQC

---

.


Uh who was that famous Lesbian lady poet called herself BlackBird?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
I know nothing of indigenous black tribes emigrating to Arabia during the Neolithic.

Arabia as just another piece of Africa's real estate
saw Nubian cultural complexes before the LGM unless
mistaken on the Nubian Complex from Sudan to Oman.

The first and original Arabs according to Arabian
lore are not from Abraham. I'm talking about
al-'arab ul-'aribah اَلْعَرَبُ الْعَارِبَةُ
whom I introduced online before it ever became widely
accessible on the 'net like it is now.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
"Thus the indigenous or 'black' tribes of Arabia were those who in ancient times emigrated from Africa during the neolithic era, approximately four to five thousand B.C., and were the earliest purveyors and dispersers of the Semitic dialects especially of the early Semitic which prevailed in the area of Syria and Mesopotamia as well."

"Golden Age of the Moor" by Ivan van Sertima, page 105 (1992) Transaction Publishers

https://archive.org/details/49153823GoldenAgeOfTheMoorIvanVanSertima/mode/2up

---

 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 



Are these guy are Amorites? Like the Professor has labeled?

Are they Shepard Kings/Hyskos?

Amorites

the descendants of the fourth son of Canaan (Gen. x. 16, I Chron. i. 14). They form part of the ancient inhabitants of Palestine
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Ha cha cha !!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Painting From 945 AD Spain Depicts Christ and Angels as Black People

This painting was created in the year 945 AD, before the european renaissance which began around 1300 AD. During the renaissance, europeans destroyed all black images and replaced them with their own.




From the book "Early Spanish Manuscript Illumination" by John Williams, page 54

"Moralia in Job of 945"

Christ in Majesty

Christ is shown enthroned between two Cherubs, within a great circular firmament suspended from the hands of two Seraphs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commentary_on_Job_of_945

---

---

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Adjust your dang camera so I don't need sunglasses to protect my eyes from the over brightened photo

Aint nobody eveh seed no brown shadow, they black. They aint grey like that / in the top left corner.

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@Tukuler

Interesting, what you said about the original arabs.

What do you think about this source?

"The original inhabitants of Arabia then, according to Sir Arthur Keith, one of the greatest living anthropologist, who has made a study of Arab skeletal remains, ancient and modern, were not the familiar Arabs of our own time but a very much darker people. A proto-negroid belt of mankind stretched across the ancient world from Africa to Malaya. This belt, by environmental and other evolutionary processes, became in parts transformed, giving rise to the Hamitic peoples of Africa, to the Dravidian peoples of India, and to the intermediate dark people inhabiting the Arabian Peninsula. In the course of time two big migrations of fair-skinned peoples came from the north, one of them, the Mongoloids, to break through and transform the dark belt of man beyond India; the other, the Caucasoids, to drive a wedge between India and Africa.”

"The Arabs: The Life Story of a People who Have Left Their Deep Impress on the World" by Bertram Thomas, page 355 (1937) Doubleday, Doran and Company, Incorporated

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.172706
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Mane thats the old classic. Yay! Download it when you can.

Some ol tyme anthros like Keith weren't as much melano/Afri-phobic haters as others in the field.


I first learned the 3-way Arab division

* al-'Arab ul-'Aribah (South "Arabian Kushites" of the oldest purest civilization and blood lines)
* al-'Arab ul-Muta'aribah (mixed in upon the southerners)
* al-'Arab ul-Musta'ribah (foreign-origin arabized settlers)

from Baldwin's Prehistoric Nations
paying no attention to his claptrap
but very attentive to his dewdrops.


Today the Arabians are nearly all "Muta"
while those they conquered like the iMazighen
who have the heritage but not the lineage
are "Musta".

Note not all speakers of Arabic as their
mother tongue agree to being called Arab.
I know 'white' Egyptians, knappy pated
Lebanese, and strung up between 4 poles
Imazighen who told me "Don't call me an Arab".

The Egyptian was upset when helping me
research a 17th century Arabic document
by Sultan Dunama Idris ibn 'Ali of Bornu.
I asked ever hear of Lake Chad
He answered do you forget I'm African
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Hahahaha!

I see, I see

As always, thank you very much for the insight
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
https://i.imgur.com/CHtPMZL.png

Are these guy are Amorites? Like the Professor has labeled?

Are they Shepard Kings/Hyskos?

Amorites

the descendants of the fourth son of Canaan (Gen. x. 16, I Chron. i. 14). They form part of the ancient inhabitants of Palestine

---

I just finished watching the last in the 20 for 20 episodes, plus one additional with Hindy Najman. You are right, he tried to sh*t on the Black community. Some of the scholars gave in, but most did not. His intend was to phrase his arguments and questions in such way that it would demonize the Black community.

The one thing he did put out is that the old Hebrews had a temple based religion and Judaism is a conversion religion, which the scholars agreed with. These two things are essential.

GARFIELD INTERVIEWS HINDY NAJMAN " 21ST CENTURY TANAKH STUDIES"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02-AnBrSc1Q
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Yes watched Hindy...she is an "apologist" so she did not crap on the Book of Enoch...


As far as GarFOOL the Agent... ugh.. I can't watch anything he is involved in his voice to me now is like nails on a chalkboard..he hate and disdain for ADOS comes through and although calls it "my community" he comes off as fake and disingenuous. I am a firm believer that the cohorts of the Dagger squad actually look down on West Africans.. the view of West African people is very limited and myopic and actually sounds Eurocentric... DNA analysis is not anthropology or history...

My greatest relief is that his YT channel and shows have very low views in comparison to some Hebrew Israelite and other real Conscious Community channels. He can write his book but he won't make any money off of it... he might sell a few and that is it...

If he was real about attacking psuedoisms he should take on the Rastafari.. but he won't
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Adjust your dang camera so I don't need sunglasses to protect my eyes from the over brightened photo

Aint nobody eveh seed no brown shadow, they black. They aint grey like that / in the top left corner.

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

This is how a blue filter will alter natural colors
"Blue Filter. A blue filter is not often associated with black & white photography however,
it can really add “mood” to a photograph by increasing the effect of haze or fog.

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


Garfield Runs Up On ISUPK And Interview The Captains Tazaryach & Chaataza

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyQXCo1PMVw
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:



Are these guy are Amorites? Like the Professor has labeled?

Are they Shepard Kings/Hyskos?

Amorites

the descendants of the fourth son of Canaan (Gen. x. 16, I Chron. i. 14). They form part of the ancient inhabitants of Palestine

---

Link to the video above:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewsLLE525Wc
_________________________________________


The narrow picture at the right is captioned on wikipedia to as:

A group of West Asiatic foreigners visiting the Egyptian official Khnumhotep II circa 1900 BC. The leader is labelled a "Hyksos". Tomb of 12th-dynasty official Khnumhotep II, at Beni Hasan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beni_Hasan

Beni Hasan

____________________________


If I'm not mistaken this scholar Suzanne Richard (her credentials shown at the beginning of the video) does not mention Amorites or Hyksos in the video.

Suzanne is a professor in the History and Archaeology Department, as well as in the Theology Department, Gannon University and also the director of The Archaeology Museum Gallery at Gannon
“Expedition 2019
to Khirbat Iskandar, Jordan”
The 2019 campaign to Khirbat Iskandar was the 11th major excavation season at this key
Early Bronze Age site in central Jordan, sponsored once again by Gannon University and
Lubbock Christian University.


_____________________________________________

Encyclopedia.com

The Hyksos

Earlier scholars attempted to equate the Hyksos with Hebrews, Arabs, Aryans, and Hurrians.
Most scholars now believe that the Semitic names,
deities, and archaeological assemblage
indicate a west Semitic group known as
Amorites were most likely the foreign kings who ruled in Egypt.


https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/news-wires-white-papers-and-books/hyksos#:~:text=Though%20most%20historians%20agree%20today,invasion%20resulted%20in%20Hyksos%20conquest.

______________________________

Interestingly wikipedia's entry

Hyksos

does no mention Amorites

but, there is something just in the references:

https://www.academia.edu/40770694/Amorites_in_the_Eastern_Nile_Delta_The_Identity_of_Asiatics_at_Avaris_during_the_Early_Middle_Kingdom

Amorites in the Eastern Nile Delta: The Identity of Asiatics at Avaris during the Early Middle Kingdom
The Enigma of the Hyksos I: ASOR Conference Boston 2017−ICAANE Conference Munich 2018 – Collected Papers, 2019Aaron A Burke
Aaron A Burke



https://slideplayer.com/slide/17500145/

^ more pictures here, takes 10 seconds to load, use arrows for slide show
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Weak heart shut me down over there
now come over here and aks me questions

Fug off
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
David (King David) in the cave of Adullam -- Bristol Psalter (c. 1050)


^ look at that beautiful negro King David with his beautiful negro hair.
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
Yes watched Hindy...she is an "apologist" so she did not crap on the Book of Enoch...

---

True, he did hope so.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

As far as GarFOOL the Agent... ugh.. I can't watch anything he is involved in his voice to me now is like nails on a chalkboard..he hate and disdain for ADOS comes through and although calls it "my community" he comes off as fake and disingenuous. I am a firm believer that the cohorts of the Dagger squad actually look down on West Africans.. the view of West African people is very limited and myopic and actually sounds Eurocentric... DNA analysis is not anthropology or history...

---

This thought crosses my mind as well, when he said "my community". I was like, does he mean the Jamaican-American community or the ADOS community. Perhaps he's referring the to Black community as whole? But he's bringing in confusion with his rhetoric.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

My greatest relief is that his YT channel and shows have very low views in comparison to some Hebrew Israelite and other real Conscious Community channels. He can write his book but he won't make any money off of it... he might sell a few and that is it...

---

These Black Hebrew Israelites have a large following and have gained more popularity within recent time.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

If he was real about attacking psuedoisms he should take on the Rastafari.. but he won't

---

That thought crosses my mind as well. And yes he did admit to that a while ago, when I used to listen to the lives.

Last night I did listen to David Fitzgerald live "Did Jesus Exist And Mormonism?". I think he has disdain for lot of things in history. I think so, because he showed a book during this live (see below), by the author: Oscar White Muscarella, The Lie Became Great (Studies in the Art and Archaeology of Antiquity), which talks about forgeries.

https://youtu.be/vKBSuuP8Ej4?t=455


 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@Ish Geber @Yatunde Lisa

I've had small debates with garfield (in YouTube comment sections and on another website) and he claims that Jews/Israelites are a "myth" and that all people who claim to be Jews are converts -- according to him there is no such thing as a real Jew because it's all a "myth".

Yet he only attacks Hebrew Israelites, or black people who claim an Israelite heritage.

He is also an atheist.

The guy is a fraud with an agenda.
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@Ish Geber @Yatunde Lisa

I've had small debates with garfield (in YouTube comment sections and on another website) and he claims that Jews/Israelites are a "myth" and that all people who claim to be Jews are converts -- according to him there is no such thing as a real Jew because it's all a "myth".

Yet he only attacks Hebrew Israelites, or black people who claim an Israelite heritage.

He is also an atheist.

The guy is a fraud with an agenda.

---

Yes, that is true. I also have posted in the Gagger comment section, last year. I showed images of surrounding populations from the Levant etc. After that he realized that these populations were Kushitic and "people color". The is why now he stance is, I don't care about the color. At first he was like they are "white".
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:



Are these guy are Amorites? Like the Professor has labeled?

Are they Shepard Kings/Hyskos?

Amorites

the descendants of the fourth son of Canaan (Gen. x. 16, I Chron. i. 14). They form part of the ancient inhabitants of Palestine

---

I am looking at it right now. It's a very poor representation, for someone on this level. For some reason these people refuse to show these images posted 27 March, 2021 08:06.

quote:

---

The Amorites were a Semitic people who seem to have emerged from western Mesopotamia (modern-day Syria) at some point prior to the 3rd millennium BCE. In Sumerian they were known as the Martu or the Tidnum (in the Ur III Period), in Akkadian by the name of Amurru, and in Egypt as Amar, all of which mean 'westerners' or 'those of the west', as does the Hebrew name Amorite. They worshipped their own pantheon of gods with a chief deity named Amurru (also known as Belu Sadi - 'Lord of the Mountains' whose wife, Belit-Seri was 'Lady of the Desert'), which also became a designation for the people as the Akkadians also referred to them as 'the people of Amurru' and to the region of Syria as 'Amurru'.

There is no record of what the Amorites called themselves.

The god Amurru's association with the mountains and his wife's with the desert suggests that they may have originated in the area of Syria around Mount Hermon, but this is unsubstantiated. Their origins are unknown, and their precise history, until they settle in cities like Mari, Ebla, and Babylon, is equally mysterious. From their first appearance in the historical record, the Amorites had a profound impact on the history of Mesopotamia and are probably best known for their kingdom of Babylonia under the Amorite king Hammurabi (r. 1792-1750 BCE). The span between 2000-1600 BCE in Mesopotamia is known as the Amorite Period, during which their impact on the region can most clearly be discerned, but there is no doubt that they influenced the people of the various cities long before that time, and their impact was felt long after.

[…]

Early History

The Amorites first appear in history as nomads who regularly made incursions from the west into established territories and kingdoms. The historian Marc Van de Mieroop writes:

quote:

---

"The Amorites were semi-nomadic groups from northern Syria, whom Babylonian literature described in extremely negative terms:

The Amorite, he is dressed in sheep's skins;

He lives in tents in wind and rain;

He doesn't offer sacrifices.

Armed vagabond in the steppe,

He digs up truffles and is restless.

He eats raw meat,

Lives his life without a home,

And, when he dies, he is not buried according to proper rituals. (83)"

---

Van de Mieroop and others point out that 'Amorite' may not have originally referred to a specific ethnic group but to any nomadic people who threatened the stability of established communities. Even if this is so, at some point, 'Amorite' came to designate a certain tribe of people with a specific culture based on a nomadic lifestyle of living off the land and taking what was needed from the communities they encountered. They grew more powerful as they acquired more land until finally they directly threatened the stability of those in the established cities of the region.

The Amorites & the Hebrews
At this point in history, according to some scholars, the Amorites play a pivotal role in the development of world culture. The biblical Book of Genesis states that the patriarch Terah took his son Abram (later Abraham), daughter-in-law Sarai, and Lot the son of Haran from Ur to dwell in the land of Haran (11:31). The scholar Paul Kriwaczek writes:

quote:

---

"Terah's family were not Sumerian. They have long been identified with the very people, the Amurru or Amorites, whom Mesopotamian tradition blamed for Ur's downfall. William Hallo, Professor of Assyriology at Yale University, confirms that 'growing linguistic evidence based chiefly on the recorded personal names of persons identified as Amorites…shows that the new group spoke a variety of Semitic ancestral to later Hebrew, Aramaic and Phoenician.' What is more, as depicted in the Bible, the details of the patriarch's tribal organization, naming conventions, family structure, customs of inheritance and land tenure, genealogical schemes, and other vestiges of nomadic life are too close to the more laconic evidence of the cuneiform records to be dismissed out of hand as late fabrications. (163-164)"

---

The fact that the events related in the Book of Exodus are not substantiated in any other ancient work, or by archaeological evidence of any kind whatsoever, supports the theory that the Hebrew writers of that book created a new narrative to explain their presence in Canaan, one without any connection to the Amorites of Mesopotamia. Throughout the early books of the Old Testament, the Amorites are repeatedly referred to negatively, except for a passage frequently cited from I Samuel 7:14 where some scholars claim that it is written that there was peace between the Amorites and the Children of Israel. But that passage actually says there was peace between the Philistines and the Israelites and does not mention the Amorites at all.

It is thought that Terah, in taking his family from Sumer, retained the tribe's original ethnic identity and brought that cultural heritage with him to Canaan where Abraham, then Isaac, and then Jacob would establish that culture as 'the children of Israel' (Jacob's name). The Book of Genesis tells the story of Joseph, Jacob's youngest son, and his sojourn in Egypt and rise to power there, and the Book of Exodus relates how the Hebrews were later enslaved by the Egyptians and were led from captivity to freedom back in Canaan by Moses. These biblical narratives would have served to separate the Israelites' national identity from their actual ancestors by creating new histories that highlighted their uniqueness among the people of the world. Kriwaczek notes that,

quote:

---

"only by leaving Ur would Terah and his little family keep their Amorite identity and their Amorite way of life which was so important to subsequent Hebrew history. Had Terah stayed in Sumer, Abram would have shared in a very different destiny…The Amorites would never leave. They would eventually merge into the general population so thoroughly that after a few decades it would be impossible to distinguish them from their predecessors. (165)"

---

The fact that the events related in the Book of Exodus are not substantiated in any other ancient work, or by archaeological evidence of any kind whatsoever, supports the theory that the Hebrew writers of that book created a new narrative to explain their presence in Canaan, one without any connection to the Amorites of Mesopotamia. Throughout the early books of the Old Testament, the Amorites are repeatedly referred to negatively, except for a passage frequently cited from I Samuel 7:14 where some scholars claim that it is written that there was peace between the Amorites and the Children of Israel. But that passage actually says there was peace between the Philistines and the Israelites and does not mention the Amorites at all.

This interpretation of the passage comes from the understanding that 'Amorite' had again come to refer to any nomadic people who interfered with established communities. While this may be true, it seems that 'Amorite' was even used to reference the early people of the land of Canaan which, according to the Book of Joshua, the Israelites conquered. In virtually every reference, then, the Amorites were considered 'the other' by the Hebrew scribes, and this tradition continued for centuries down to the creation of the Talmud in which Jews are prohibited from engaging in Amorite practices. According to the Jewish Encyclopedia:

quote:

---

To the apocryphal writers of the first and second pre-Christian century [the Amorites] are the main representatives of heathen superstition, loathed as idolaters, in whose ordinances Israelites may not walk (Lev. xviii. 3). A special section of the Talmud (Tosef., Shab. vi.-vii. [vii.-viii.]; Bab. Shab. 67a et seq.) is devoted to the various superstitions called "The Ways of the Amorites." According to the Book of Jubilees (xxix. [9] 11), "the former terrible giants, the Rephaim, gave way to the Amorites, an evil and sinful people whose wickedness surpasses that of any other, and whose life will be cut short on earth." In the Syriac Apocalypse of Baruch (lx.) they are symbolized by "black water" on account of "their black art, their witchcraft and impure mysteries, by which they contaminated Israel in the time of the Judges"

---

The theory that the Amorites, through their appropriation and transmission of Mesopotamian myths, would produce the biblical narratives of the Old Testament, has been challenged repeatedly over the years and, no doubt, will continue to be. There seems to be more evidence to support this theory, however, than disprove it.

[...]

---

See link for more info:
https://www.ancient.eu/amorite/
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Amorites
highlanders, or hillmen, the name given to the descendants of one of the sons of Canaan ( Genesis 14:7 ), called Amurra or Amurri in the Assyrian and Egyptian inscriptions. On the early Babylonian monuments all Syria, including Palestine, is known as "the land of the Amorites." The southern slopes of the mountains of Judea are called the "mount of the Amorites" ( Deuteronomy 1:7 Deuteronomy 1:19 Deuteronomy 1:20 ). They seem to have originally occupied the land stretching from the heights west of the Dead Sea ( Genesis 14:7 ) to Hebron (13. Comp 13:8 ; Deuteronomy 3:8 ; 4:46-48 ), embracing "all Gilead and all Bashan" ( Deuteronomy 3:10 ), with the Jordan valley on the east of the river ( 4:49 ), the land of the "two kings of the Amorites," Sihon and Og ( Deuteronomy 31:4 ; Joshua 2:10 ; 9:10 ). The five kings of the Amorites were defeated with great slaughter by ( Joshua 10:10 ). They were again defeated at the waters of Merom by Joshua, who smote them till there were none remaining ( Joshua 11:8 ). It is mentioned as a surprising circumstance that in the days of Samuel there was peace between them and the Israelites ( 1 Samuel 7:14 ). The discrepancy supposed to exist between Deuteronomy 1:44 and Numbers 14:45 is explained by the circumstance that the terms "Amorites" and "Amalekites" are used synonymously for the "Canaanites." In the same way we explain the fact that the "Hivites" of Genesis 34:2 are the "Amorites" of 48:22 . Compare Joshua 10:6 ; 11:19 with 2 Samuel 21:2 ; also Numbers 14:45 with Deuteronomy 1:44 . The Amorites were warlike mountaineers. They are represented on the Egyptian monuments with fair skins, light hair, blue eyes, aquiline noses, and pointed beards. They are supposed to have been men of great stature; their king, Og, is described by Moses as the last "of the remnant of the giants" ( Deuteronomy 3:11 ). Both Sihon and Og were independent kings. Only one word of the Amorite language survives, "Shenir," the name they gave to Mount Hermon ( Deuteronomy 3:9 ).

AMORITES

am'-o-rits; Amorites ('emori, always in the singular like the Babylonian Amurru from which it is taken; Amorraioi):

1. Varying Use of the Name Explained

2. The Amorite Kingdom

3. Sihon's Conquest

4. Disappearance of the Amorite Kingdom

5. Physical Characteristics of the Amorites

The name Amorite is used in the Old Testament to denote

(1) the inhabitants of Palestine generally,

(2) the population of the hills as opposed to the plain, and

(3) a specific people under a king of their own.

[…]

---

https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/amorites/
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@Ish Gebor

Did you see the 20 for 20 that he did with Tudor Parfitt? Parfitt was very objective with his stance but at one part he did admit that the reason for communities of black Jews in West Africa during the end of the fifteenth century was because of the expulsion of Jews from Spain/Portugal during the Inquisition.

Here's a 2 minute and 20 second clip from that interview where Parfitt says these things:

https://youtu.be/IwC-bb0gJH4
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@Ish Gebor

Did you see the 20 for 20 that he did with Tudor Parfitt? Parfitt was very objective with his stance but at one part he did admit that the reason for communities of black Jews in West Africa during the end of the fifteenth century was because of the expulsion of Jews from Spain/Portugal during the Inquisition.

Here's a 2 minute and 20 second clip from that interview where Parfitt says these things:

https://youtu.be/IwC-bb0gJH4

---

Yes, I looked at all the interviews, including the one with Tudor Parfitt. I have order his book and a few others as well, mentioned during these series.

https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674066984


Jonathan Schorsch basically said the same as Tudor Parfitt, but danced around the facts.

What he did confirm was that "the biblical period is super complicated. He said that the Rabbi's remade Judaism into the Israelite religion."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv_GVk7zFfc&t=843s
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
@ish gebor

Thanks for the Amorite info very good reading...

Jonathan Schorsch has an agenda with his book and frankly a thesis that does not makes sense..

which is "africans and jews" being conflated as "black" was just a mythical metaphor..since red hair was also associated with Jews in medieval europe


author: Oscar White Muscarella, The Lie Became Great (Studies in the Art and Archaeology of Antiquity)

Some of the Ebla tablets have no provenance and specifically the ones which on of the 20/20 guests actually did a review of..

Also, there are a ton of fakes in Egyptology.. it really makes you question what is real and what is not...
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
@ish gebor

Thanks for the Amorite info very good reading...

Jonathan Schorsch has an agenda with his book and frankly a thesis that does not makes sense..

which is "africans and jews" being conflated as "black" was just a mythical metaphor..since red hair was also associated with Jews in medieval europe

---

I myself as I have stated here before, have Black-Afro-European ancestry going back to the 17th century. There is no doubt or conflation in this.


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
SCHOLARS 20 FOR 20 #8 DR TUDOR PARFITT "WHO ARE THE LOST TRIBES OF ISRAEL? LEMBA, DNA,LOANGO JEWS

https://youtu.be/IwC-bb0gJH4

Tudor Parfitt

"some of my recent work uh
if you read
very attentively
you'll have to go to the footnotes
you will see there's got a lot of
a lot of evidence produced
for black Jewish communities in
different parts
of west africa which
are not sort of based upon
a particular reading of tribal history
let's put it like that
but are based from on
a fairly hard historical fact
and the base this hard historical fact
is the
expulsion of the Jews from Spain and
from Portugal at the end of the 15th
century
subsequent to which um
a lot of Jews settled first of all in
north west
africa places like Senegal
in the islands which i'm sure you know
about San Tome and
Principe principally
and then less known um along the
the coast of guinea so that in the
middle of the 50
middle of the 16th century 1560 to be
precise
the portuguese
archbishop of goa in india
proclaimed that judaism is a kind of
horrible illness which has
killed millions of people throughout
history and
um the result of being jewish
was to be covered in in shame to
fail in everything
even among the black jews
of guinea so in other words
the existence of jews in the
western part of africa was
absolutely accepted at the time
by the likes of the portuguese
archbishop of goa"

________________________


Ish Geber, what do you think Tudur Parfit is saying here exactly?
First he's saying that evidence for black Jews in West Africa is not on interpretations of tribal history.
He's saying it's instead based of the expulsion of Jews from Spain at the end of the 15th
century.
Do think he's saying that the Jews coming from Spain were black?
Or do you think he doesn't say if they were black or not, that they are just the basis of communities of Jews in West Africa?

Let's say he's saying that the Jews who came from Spain in the late 15th century were black.
Are some black Jews in West Africa claiming this, that the are descendants of black Spanish Jews?

I have never heard a black Hebrew Israelites say that Spain was the source of black Jews in West Africa.
If they were black is this in the modern sense that they resembled black people in Africa?
If this was the case I would expect to see in late 15th century art pictures of them looking that way and many remarks in European writing that they looked like Ethiopians or Moors or something like that.

I think this would have to start by looking at one particular community of black Jews in Africa and then determining they are Jewish due to having black Spanish ancestors who spoke Spanish or Portuguese and who had lived in Spain or Portugal prior to the expulsion?

Parfitt says "San Tome and
Principe principally"

The Portuguese came to São Tomé in search of land to grow sugarcane. The island was uninhabited before the arrival of the Portuguese sometime around 1470. São Tomé, situated about 40 kilometres (25 mi) north of the equator, had a climate wet enough to grow sugarcane in wild abundance. 2,000 Jewish children, eight years old and under, were taken from the Iberian peninsula for work on the sugar plantations.

Were these black children?
Did these children establish Jewish culture in San Tome. What's the story on this?
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

If they were black is this in the modern sense that they resembled black people in Africa?

---

What do the black people in Africa look like?

quote:

---

Are some black Jews in West Africa claiming this, that the are descendants of black Spanish Jews?

---

a small percentage of African Jews in west Africa are descendants of Sephardi Jews from Portugal, Spain and Morocco..

notice Sephardi Jews could live in parts of West Africa and not die of Malaria that tells unlike say the English who could not set foot on the shores of West Africa until quinine


The Lemba


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
a small percentage of African Jews in west Africa are descendants of Sephardi Jews from Portugal, Spain and Morocco..

---

who are the larger percentage of West African Jews descended from?
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
^^^ tired of you shutting people down in other threads with your sociopathic behavior then coming on other threads trolling and trying to pick black folks brains..


Your JOB is to learn enough about African cultures to the point where you can actually tell the difference between tribes, looks, culture, dance, religion, morays and morals i.e. religions.

Learn their oral stories for yourself. .

Don't come here and expect for people to spoon feed you like a baby you got GOOGLE. .

As someone already pointed out this is the age of I KNOW..


You do realize Yte folks showed up in Africa 400 years ago and started commenting and writing about the tribes of West Africa.. that is a good place for you to start your research because you will believe them over anything we say anyway..

BYE
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

"Rekhmire's Syrians aren't monolithic." As I suspected and as was confirmed by one of the scholars in the 20 for 20 series.

---

The easiest answer is that it is a mistake by the artist...
[/QUOTE]Asiatics in Egyptian art are called Aamu.
They are in a lot of Egyptian art.
However Retenu are a very specific type of Asiatic that doesn't appear in other tombs outside of Rekhmire much if at all. There may be other types of Asiatics in different scenes at Rekhmire but this scene below, the figures with the long white robes are Retenu.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

The fact that this red head retenu have horses is a big clue they are in fact scythians

---

[/qb][/QUOTE] [/QB][/QUOTE]




Red beard Ottoman/Abbasid/Jew?
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

quote:

---

If they were black is this in the modern sense that they resembled black people in Africa?

---

What do the black people in Africa look like?

quote:

---

Are some black Jews in West Africa claiming this, that the are descendants of black Spanish Jews?

---

a small percentage of African Jews in west Africa are descendants of Sephardi Jews from Portugal, Spain and Morocco..

notice Sephardi Jews could live in parts of West Africa and not die of Malaria that tells unlike say the English who could not set foot on the shores of West Africa until quinine


The Lemba

---

The enslaved African people came from interior. What Jonathan Schorsch said was partially true, but he danced around the basic facts to make himself look good and to serve Garfield. That why Garfield had him last, or almost last. What he said was Pernille Ipsen is saying in her book Daughters of the Trade.

West Africa's Sahara-Sahel Region diversity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGBOX8BN8ew

Daughters of the Trade. (From the 01.20 minute onwards she discusses the people who where taken from the interior, and taken to the coast, though it is being addressed earlier on as well.

Author and lecturer is Pernille Ipsen.

https://youtu.be/uhna3l_t9-E
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

quote:

---

"Rekhmire's Syrians aren't monolithic." As I suspected and as was confirmed by one of the scholars in the 20 for 20 series.

---

The easiest answer is that it is a mistake by the artist...

---

Asiatics in Egyptian art are called Aamu.
They are in a lot of Egyptian art.
However Retenu are a very specific type of Asiatic that doesn't appear in other tombs outside of Rekhmire much if at all. There may be other types of Asiatics in different scenes at Rekhmire but this scene below, the figures with the long white robes are Retenu.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

The fact that this red head retenu have horses is a big clue they are in fact scythians







Red beard Ottoman/Abbasid/Jew?

---

For this you need Dana Renolds. She's most educated on these ethnic groups. It's her specialty.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
[QB] ^^^ tired of you shutting people down in other threads with your sociopathic behavior then coming on other threads trolling and trying to pick black folks brains..

---

I wasn't talking to you
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

quote:

---

If they were black is this in the modern sense that they resembled black people in Africa?

---

What do the black people in Africa look like?

quote:

---

Are some black Jews in West Africa claiming this, that the are descendants of black Spanish Jews?

---

a small percentage of African Jews in west Africa are descendants of Sephardi Jews from Portugal, Spain and Morocco..

notice Sephardi Jews could live in parts of West Africa and not die of Malaria that tells unlike say the English who could not set foot on the shores of West Africa until quinine

---

The enslaved African people came from interior. What Jonathan Schorsch said was partially true, but he danced around the basic facts to make himself look good and to serve Garfield. That why Garfield had him last, or almost last. What he said was Pernille Ipsen is saying in her book Daughters of the Trade.

West Africa's Sahara-Sahel Region diversity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGBOX8BN8ew

Daughters of the Trade. (From the 01.20 minute onwards she discusses the people who where taken from the interior, and taken to the coast, though it is being addressed earlier on as well.

Author and lecturer is Pernille Ipsen.

https://youtu.be/uhna3l_t9-E

---

Thank you for reminding me of the daughters of the trade.. she is a good resource for my studies..


@lioness


Yes you where, quit lyin...


 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J_8o34Quc8

55. The Jews of Ethiopia to 1862 (Jewish History Lab)
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

quote:

---

"Rekhmire's Syrians aren't monolithic." As I suspected and as was confirmed by one of the scholars in the 20 for 20 series.

---

The easiest answer is that it is a mistake by the artist...

---

Asiatics in Egyptian art are called Aamu.
They are in a lot of Egyptian art.
However Retenu are a very specific type of Asiatic that doesn't appear in other tombs outside of Rekhmire much if at all. There may be other types of Asiatics in different scenes at Rekhmire but this scene below, the figures with the long white robes are Retenu.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

The fact that this red head retenu have horses is a big clue they are in fact scythians

---

[/QUOTE] [/QB][/QUOTE]




Red beard Ottoman/Abbasid/Jew? [/QB][/QUOTE]




Ok got it.. Muslim playing a Jew in medieval 13th century Spain, Al-Andalus.. there is a theme here
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
^^^ tired of you shutting people down in other threads with your sociopathic behavior then coming on other threads trolling and trying to pick black folks brains..


Your JOB is to learn enough about African cultures to the point where you can actually tell the difference between tribes, looks, culture, dance, religion, morays and morals i.e. religions.

Learn their oral stories for yourself. .

Don't come here and expect for people to spoon feed you like a baby you got GOOGLE. .

As someone already pointed out this is the age of I KNOW..


You do realize Yte folks showed up in Africa 400 years ago and started commenting and writing about the tribes of West Africa.. that is a good place for you to start your research because you will believe them over anything we say anyway..

BYE

---

VERY WELL SAID
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

You ran away from the sources I posted just like your lying buddy zarahan did. I posted multiple sources saying the Jews who were banished to West Africa from Spain/Portugal during the Inquisition were black/negro people with black/negro descendants.

I've also posted a source stating that from medieval times until the recent past, Jews were always known to be black people (literally) and that literal black africans were mistaken as being Jews in a VAST number of occasions -- this is obviously because the Jews themselves were black/negro people who resembled black africans.

At this point you're beyond trolling.

"In these fragmentary glimpses drawn from a variety of sources, we can see that Jews were considered to be black, to have a numer of African physical qualities, and ultimately to have a good deal of African blood. Similarly, black Africans in the nineteenth century and before, in a vast extraordinary number of cases were thought to be Jews, and indeed to have both Jewish characteristics and to be descended from ancient Israelite stock. From medieval times to the present, Jews have been thought to have 'black blood' in their veins and to have a number of African physical and other characteristics, including an African nose, African proportions, and African skin color."

"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 11 (2013) Harvard University Press

https://books.google.com/books?id=SBtqXClBWTIC
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

You ran away from the sources I posted just like your lying buddy zarahan did. I posted multiple sources saying the Jews who were banished to West Africa from Spain/Portugal during the Inquisition were black/negro people with black/negro descendants.

I've also posted a source stating that from medieval times until the recent past, Jews were always known to be black people (literally) and that literal black africans were mistaken as being Jews in a VAST number of occasions -- this is obviously because the Jews themselves were black/negro people who resembled black africans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:




Ok got it.. Muslim playing a Jew in medieval 13th century Spain, Al-Andalus.. there is a theme here

---

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

You going to keep deflecting? Deal with the source I just posted, nobody cares about your cherrypicked artwork.

You @'d Ish Geber and were just trying to insinuate that Parfitt wasn't saying the Jews were black in the 20 for 20, yet when I post a direct quote from his book showing that you are wrong and that the Jews were literally black you want to change the subject and go back to spamming cherrypicked artwork.

PARFITT SAYS:

"In these fragmentary glimpses drawn from a variety of sources, we can see that Jews were considered to be black, to have a number of African physical qualities, and ultimately to have a good deal of African blood. Similarly, black Africans in the nineteenth century and before, in a vast extraordinary number of cases were thought to be Jews, and indeed to have both Jewish characteristics and to be descended from ancient Israelite stock. From medieval times to the present, Jews have been thought to have 'black blood' in their veins and to have a number of African physical and other characteristics, including an African nose, African proportions, and African skin color."

"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 11 (2013) Harvard University Press

https://books.google.com/books?id=SBtqXClBWTIC
 

---

Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 
So is the OP one of those people who claim that modern African-Americans are primarily descended from Biblical Israelites? Because I can't say the research on aDNA from the Bronze Age Levant has revealed any special affinity between those populations and African-Americans or West Africans. At least none that I am aware of.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

Here's a clip from an interview with Tudor Parfitt where he explicitly states that black Jews were banished to West Africa from Spain/Portugal during the Inquisition.

https://youtu.be/IwC-bb0gJH4

---

quote:

---

Tudor Parfitt, quote from video:


"a lot of evidence produced
for black jewish communities in
different parts
of west africa which
are not sort of based upon
a particular reading of tribal history
let's put it like that
but are based from on
a fairly hard historical fact
and the base this hard historical fact
is the
expulsion of the jews from spain and
from portugal at the end of the 15th
century
subsequent to which um
a lot of jews settled first of all in
north west
africa places like senegal
in the islands which i'm sure you know
about san tome and
Principe principally"

---

.


.


Below click link, a PhD thesis from one of Paritt's students going into detail about this.
Notice Parfitt's name below, Professor

Tazarah, I am way ahead of. You don't know any of the details. Don't bug me anymore before doing the knowledge, no more kindergarten.
If I start talking about details here on what Parfitt is teaching and you still don't have a clue we will have to consider this a loss on your part a shellacking

https://digitalcommons.fiu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5340&context=etd



 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:
So is the OP one of those people who claim that modern African-Americans are primarily descended from Biblical Israelites? Because I can't say the research on aDNA from the Bronze Age Levant has revealed any special affinity between those populations and African-Americans or West Africans. At least none that I am aware of.

---

Can you provide a study stating that ancient Israelite or ancient Jew remains were examined and studied to receive this DNA that you are talking about? The Levant was occupied by numerous different groups of people, please cite a study that directly references the examination of ancient Israelite/ancient Jew remains in order to find "DNA", otherwise your argument is just a red herring.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:
So is the OP one of those people who claim that modern African-Americans are primarily descended from Biblical Israelites? Because I can't say the research on aDNA from the Bronze Age Levant has revealed any special affinity between those populations and African-Americans or West Africans. At least none that I am aware of.

---

watch this short 2 minute video clip what Tazrah is talking about

https://youtu.be/IwC-bb0gJH4

this is the longer version, Tudor Parfitt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uRCDZENxpQ
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

Once again, DEFLECTING like the troll you are. I said nothing about sao tome. Directly address the quote I posted from Parfitt's book or shutup and stop trolling.

Parfitt states that as early as early as medieval times, black africans were mistaken as being Jews in a vast number of occasions. You need to explain why black africans were always being mistaken as Jews if the Jews were not black themselves.

PARFITT SAYS:

"In these fragmentary glimpses drawn from a variety of sources, we can see that Jews were considered to be black, to have a number of African physical qualities, and ultimately to have a good deal of African blood. Similarly, black Africans in the nineteenth century and before, in a vast extraordinary number of cases were thought to be Jews, and indeed to have both Jewish characteristics and to be descended from ancient Israelite stock. From medieval times to the present, Jews have been thought to have 'black blood' in their veins and to have a number of African physical and other characteristics, including an African nose, African proportions, and African skin color."

"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 11 (2013) Harvard University Press

https://books.google.com/books?id=SBtqXClBWTIC
 

---

Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:
So is the OP one of those people who claim that modern African-Americans are primarily descended from Biblical Israelites? Because I can't say the research on aDNA from the Bronze Age Levant has revealed any special affinity between those populations and African-Americans or West Africans. At least none that I am aware of.

---

Can you provide a study stating that ancient Israelite or ancient Jew remains were examined and studied to receive this DNA that you are talking about? The Levant was occupied by numerous different groups of people, please cite a study that directly references the examination of ancient Israelite/ancient Jew remains in order to find "DNA", otherwise your argument is just a red herring.

---

I admit that these studies don't specify the archaeological remains they're sampling as Hebrew, especially since it's not always easy to tell which remains belonged to which ethnic group. That said, if there was a sizable, predominantly West African-related population living in Israel during the Bronze Age, you'd think surrounding populations in the Levant would have received gene flow from them. So far, not a single study I have seen has reported an outstandingly large West African-related component in Bronze Age Levantine aDNA.

The Genomic History of the Bronze Age Southern Levant

quote:

---

To develop a sense of population changes in the Levant since the Bronze Age, we attempted to model groups that have a tradition of descent from ancient people in the region (Jews) as well as Levantine Arabic-speakers as mixtures of various ancient source populations. qpAdm assumes no admixture between groups related to the outgroups and the source populations, but almost all present-day Levantine and Mediterranean populations have significant sub-Saharan-African-related admixture that the ancient groups did not.

---

(I should note that I actually do think ancient Levantines might have had a bit of SSA ancestry, either Mota- or Nilotic-like, which they might have obtained through their Egyptian contacts. But it's not as much as Black Hebrew Israelites tend to want.)
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

Once again, DEFLECTING like the troll you are. I said nothing about sao tome. Directly address the quote I posted from Parfitt's book or shutup and stop trolling.

---

You seem to think someone who know more about the topic you raise than you do is therefore a troll. You didn't say anything about San Tome because you don't know that is an important part of Tudor Parfitt's claims.

You may not realize this but Egyptsearch is not an Hebrew Israelite propaganda website

You read one opinion by an author and because it's what you want to hear you don't bother reading the book or related essays to see if the evidence support what the author is claiming. You are a lightweight

"Tudor Parfitt said"

is not proof, you are clueless and have no idea what primary sources are to very a particular author's accuracy or lack thereof about them

You also don't know what anecdotal evidence is and you don't know about language usages in different centuries, there is a lot you don't know
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

PARFITT SAYS:

[b]"In these fragmentary glimpses

---

Do you know what "fragmentary glimpses" means?

It's a nice way of saying "weak evidence which some believe suggests" in other words "rumor has it"

Strong evidence is reference is written document of a population > from the time and place being talked about by the people themselves
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@Yatunde Lisa

The reason garfield brought jonathan schorsch on his channel for an interview was because myself and others were using quotes from shorsch's book (Jews and Blacks in the early modern world, 2004) to prove that Jews were always known as being black throughout history, and that the idea of Jews being "white" people is a recent invention of the europeans.

So, garfield, being the agent that he is, brought schorsch on for an interview in order to give him an opportunity to "clear things up", or backpedal from what he originally stated in his book.

I post threads dealing with this topic on multiple internet forums to spread the information, and somehow garfield found one of my threads on the "lipstickalley" website (lipstickalley.com) about things jonathan schorsch said in his book, and he created an account named "nastynorc" in order to say this in response to my thread regarding statements made by schorsch in his book:



This is the link to the thread:

https://www.lipstickalley.com/threads/jew-ish-professor-admits-jews-were-always-described-as-being-black-people-up-until-the-16th-century.4115560/page-10

garfield's, or "nastynorc's" comment is post #283.

At first I thought this "nastynorc" person was somebody else who follows and trolls all my threads but I soon realized it was garfield after I saw that he was the one interviewing schorsch on YouTube.

THIS IS THE THREAD I MADE ON THAT WEBSITE (LIPSTICK ALLEY) THAT GARFIELD FELT THE NEED TO RESPOND TO:

_____________________________________________


*** A Jew-ish professor admits that up until the 16th - 18th centuries (rise of european colonialism), it was a well known fact that Jews were black people and they were always described as such. He explains how the identity of the Jews was whitewashed over time.

This book (Jews and Blacks in the Early Modern World, 2004) was written by Jonathan Schorsch. He is professor of Jewish religious and intellectual history at Universität Potsdam and founder of the Jewish activism summer school, Germany. He is also an assistant professor at Columbia University. Schorsch is a white, Jew-ish man.

(I will provide a link to the online ebook at the end of the post.)

In chapter 7 of his book (chapter 7 is entitled "inventing jewish whiteness") Schorsch says the idea that Jews were white people did not come to existence until the 16th - 18th centuries during european colonialism.

***** On page 166 he writes:

"In this chapter and the next, I explore several aspects of the (self-)fashioning of early modern Jews into whites in and under european colonialism."

***** Page 180:

"As late as 1753, during the debate in England over that year's Jewish Naturalization Act, one polemicist (debater) suggested that anyone who wanted to look Jewish should rub herself with walnut husks 'to fix such an indelible hue... and make you complete olive beauties' with a 'lively complexion like that of a new Negro from the coast of Guinea.'"

***** Page 181:

"Already in 1691, François-Maximilian Mission, wrote against such views of Jewish blackness, while bolstering in the process the impression that the idea was not uncommon:

'Tis a vulgar error that the Jews are all black; for this is only true of the Portuguese, who, marrying always among one another, beget children like themselves, and consequently the swarthiness of their complexion is entail'd upon their whole Race, even in the Northern regions. But the Jews who are originally of Germany, those, for example, I have seen at Prague, are not blacker than the rest of their countrymen."

***** Also on page 181:

"Toward the latter end of the eighteenth century, one finds this same changeability of the Jews expressed in updated nuances and geographic context..."

*** Now, page 184 was removed from the online ebook and is not available for online view, but I have a screenshot of it. (Why did they remove it? For obvious reasons. They don't want black people finding any of this information.)

***** Page 184:

"Harold Brackman cited the fascinating and revealing emendations made to the color scheme of Noah's three sons that appeared in the first printed editions of the early medieval text Pirke d'Rabi Eliezer. Shem (father of the "shemitic" or "semitic" peoples), originally 'black and pleasing' in earlier manuscripts, was Europeanized, becoming 'white and pleasing'... these editorial revisions were in place by the sixteenth century."



LINK TO EBOOK:

"Jews and Blacks in the Early Modern World" by Jonathan Schorsch (2004) Cambridge University Press

https://books.google.com/books/about/Jews_and_Blacks_in_the_Early_Modern_Worl.html?id=COpQcnGESRwC
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@BrandonP

Then why even reference that study? You see who funded it, right?

Can you please explain why there are no "DNA" studies that deal with information like this, that has been published for over 100 years?

(*** the ancient elamites were semites.)

“The discovery, in the Parthian necropolises of Memnonium, of negro skulls, the frankly negroid type of the Elamites (fig. 31, 32, 36, 37 and 38; comp fig. 6, 7 and 8) reproduced on the bas-reliefs Assyrians, the enamels of the Achaemenid era unearthed from the excavations of Susa, confirm the information that classical historians provide on the Ethiopians of the Levant."

"L'Acropole de Suse : d'après les fouilles exécutées en 1884, 1885, 1886, sous les auspices du Musée du Louvre, Volume 1" by Marcel Dieulafoy, page 28 (1890) Librairie Hachette

https://books.google.com/books/about/L_acropole_de_Suse_d_après_les_fouilles.html?id=8ZRZAAAAYAAJ

_________

"The Elamites of Mesopotamia appear to have been a negroid people with kinky hair, and to have transmitted this racial type to the Jews and Syrians."

"The Negro in the New World" by Sir Harry H. Johnston, page 27 (1910) Smithsonian Institution

https://library.si.edu/digital-library/book/negroinnewworl00john
_________

"The original inhabitants of Arabia then, according to Sir Arthur Keith, one of the greatest living anthropologist, who has made a study of Arab skeletal remains, ancient and modern, were not the familiar Arabs of our own time but a very much darker people. A proto-negroid belt of mankind stretched across the ancient world from Africa to Malaya."

"The Arabs: The Life Story of a People who Have Left Their Deep Impress on the World" by Bertram Thomas, page 355 (1937) Doubleday, Doran and Company, Incorporated

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.172706


why don't the ancient bones match up with the ashkenazi-funded "DNA studies"?
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

Deflecting, and lying ONCE AGAIN. Parfitt says fragmentary GLIMPSES at the sources, not that the sources themselves are fragmentary. He clearly says that in a vast or extraordinary number of occasions, black africans were mistaken as being Jews.

*****Please explain why black africans were being mistaken as Jews if the Jews were not black themselves?*****

In regards to this particular source you are playing the same games that your lying buddy zarahan tried to play and guess what? It isn't working.

PARFITT SAYS:

"In these fragmentary glimpses drawn from a variety of sources, we can see that Jews were considered to be black, to have a number of African physical qualities, and ultimately to have a good deal of African blood. Similarly, black Africans in the nineteenth century and before, in a vast extraordinary number of cases were thought to be Jews, and indeed to have both Jewish characteristics and to be descended from ancient Israelite stock. From medieval times to the present, Jews have been thought to have 'black blood' in their veins and to have a number of African physical and other characteristics, including an African nose, African proportions, and African skin color."

"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 11 (2013) Harvard University Press

https://books.google.com/books?id=SBtqXClBWTIC
 

---

Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@BrandonP

Then why even referencr that study? You see who funded it, right?

Can you please explain why there are no "DNA" studies that deal with information like this, that has been published for over 100 years?

(*** the ancient elamites were semites.)

“The discovery, in the Parthian necropolises of Memnonium, of negro skulls, the frankly negroid type of the Elamites (fig. 31, 32, 36, 37 and 38; comp fig. 6, 7 and 8) reproduced on the bas-reliefs Assyrians, the enamels of the Achaemenid era unearthed from the excavations of Susa, confirm the information that classical historians provide on the Ethiopians of the Levant."

"L'Acropole de Suse : d'après les fouilles exécutées en 1884, 1885, 1886, sous les auspices du Musée du Louvre, Volume 1" by Marcel Dieulafoy, page 28 (1890) Librairie Hachette

https://books.google.com/books/about/L_acropole_de_Suse_d_après_les_fouilles.html?id=8ZRZAAAAYAAJ

_________

"The Elamites of Mesopotamia appear to have been a negroid people with kinky hair, and to have transmitted this racial type to the Jews and Syrians."

"The Negro in the New World" by Sir Harry H. Johnston, page 27 (1910) Smithsonian Institution

https://library.si.edu/digital-library/book/negroinnewworl00john
_________

"The original inhabitants of Arabia then, according to Sir Arthur Keith, one of the greatest living anthropologist, who has made a study of Arab skeletal remains, ancient and modern, were not the familiar Arabs of our own time but a very much darker people. A proto-negroid belt of mankind stretched across the ancient world from Africa to Malaya."

"The Arabs: The Life Story of a People who Have Left Their Deep Impress on the World" by Bertram Thomas, page 355 (1937) Doubleday, Doran and Company, Incorporated

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.172706


[b] why don't the ancient bones match up with the ashkenazi-funded "DNA studies"?

---

Phenotype =/= genetic affinity. What I meant to contest was the Black Hebrew Israelite claim that the ancient Hebrews would have been the primary ancestors of modern West Africans and African-Americans. The aDNA data so far has not shown support for this notion no matter what the ancient people would have looked like in life.

You know what other populations look "Negroid" with dark skin and frizzy hair? Asian Negritos and Melanesians, for one. Who happen to be genetically even further removed from SSA than "white" Europeans.



Point being, "negroid" characteristics do not mean a West African genetic affinity for any population.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@BrandonP

Sorry, but your argument was dismantled the moment you brought up a "DNA" study, that didn't even reference ancient Israelite/ancient Jew "DNA", to a discussion concerning Jews and Israelites.

The point being made in regards to those ancient bones from those ancient "middle eastern" or Levantine locations being negroid is: none of the modern populations that your ashkenazi-funded "DNA" studies claim have ancient DNA from those ancient populations possess any negroid affinities, negroid phenotypes, OR negroid physiological qualities...

So let that sink in.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
And Lachish has Judah era bones a plenty.
Surely one ear bone has yielded up its
secrets in an Israeli lab.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
And Lachish has Judah era bones a plenty.
Surely one ear bone has yielded up its
secrets in an Israeli lab.

---

Yes, have you heard of or seen this study? I found it on ES a year or two ago:

"D. L. Risdon in BIOMETRIKA 1939 31:99-166, 1939 31:99-166 reports the Lachish cranial series has its closest resemblance to the 4th dynasty series from Deshasheh and Medum in Lower Egypt and the 18th dynasty samples from Thebes and Abydos in Upper Egypt. Cranial samples from other Palestinian sites (Gezer, Megiddo) agree with the Lachish cranium. Thus we have a clear African "racial" continuum in the Hebrews and Egyptians."
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:
So is the OP one of those people who claim that modern African-Americans are primarily descended from Biblical Israelites? Because I can't say the research on aDNA from the Bronze Age Levant has revealed any special affinity between those populations and African-Americans or West Africans. At least none that I am aware of.

---

The issue is that the actual identity of African-Americans is unknown. They are the only group throughout the diaspora, whose cultural elements and history was completely removed.

quote:

---

“Haplogroup L2a1 was found in two specimens from the Southern Levant Pre-Pottery Neolithic B site at Tell Halula, Syria, dating from the period between ca. 9600 and ca. 8000 BP or 7500-6000 BCE”

---

(Fernández, E. et al., MtDNA analysis of ancient samples from Castellón (Spain): Diachronic variation and genetic relationships, International Congress Series, vol. 1288 (April 2006), pp. 127-129.)

quote:

---

Culture: Pre-pottery Neolithic B
Country: Syria
Site and/or Individual: Tell Halula [H37]
Date (usually approx.): 6800-6000 BC
mtDNA: L2a1 (16223T 16261T 16278T 16294T 16309G)

Culture: Pre-pottery Neolithic B
Country: Syria
Site and/or Individual: Tell Halula [H43]
Date (usually approx.): 6800-6000 BC
mtDNA: L2a1 (16261T 16278T 16294T 16309G)

---

(E.Fernández teal., Mitochondrial DNA genetic relationships at the ancient Neolithic site of Tell Halula)
Forensic Science International: Genetics Supplement Series 1 (2008) 271–273)

quote:

---

The Saga of Sepharda ሰፕሃርዳ ... by Debra Katz

Somewhere in North Africa, EgYpt or the Levant, a baby girl is born with yet another mtDNA mutation…starting the haplogroup line known as L2a1.

Some of her tribes people intermarry with the newly forming Hebrew tribes in the Levant and become Hebrews/Jews.

---

(Billy Gambela, Afroasiatic anthropology, ጋምበላ ። Afri-Asiatic Anthropology Blog).

quote:

---

Haplogroup L2a (mtDNA) has notable frequencies of 22% among the Hebrew Affiliated Fulani of Nile Valley to Niger to The Gambia. They are at least 70,000-111,100 B.P. The Oldest in Egypt!! L2a1 also has (49%) MtDna collectively in, Sudan, Nile- Valley/Nubia, Ethiopia, and Egypt (from the White Nile to the Blue Nile)... (the Nile Valley Civilizations)...

---

(Billy Gambela, Afroasiatic anthropology, Egypt mtDNA and the Nile Valley ኒለ ቫልለይ Dna DiversitY.. The Maternal Hamito-Semitic.. mtDna Haplogroup L)

Someone did a complete breakdown of Haplogroup L2 (mtDNA)

Possible time of origin 80,000-111,100 YBP
Descendants L2a─d, L2e
Updated on Jun 04, 2018
https://alchetron.com/Haplogroup-L2-(mtDNA)
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:
So is the OP one of those people who claim that modern African-Americans are primarily descended from Biblical Israelites? Because I can't say the research on aDNA from the Bronze Age Levant has revealed any special affinity between those populations and African-Americans or West Africans. At least none that I am aware of.

---

The issue is that the actual identity of African-Americans is unknown. They are the only group throughout the diaspora, whose cultural elements and history was completely removed.

---

ISAIAH 65:15

"15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:"

JEREMIAH 17:4

"4 And thou, even thyself, shalt discontinue from thine heritage that I gave thee; and I will cause thee to serve thine enemies in the land which thou knowest not: for ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn for ever."
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:
So is the OP one of those people who claim that modern African-Americans are primarily descended from Biblical Israelites? Because I can't say the research on aDNA from the Bronze Age Levant has revealed any special affinity between those populations and African-Americans or West Africans. At least none that I am aware of.

---

The issue is that the actual identity of African-Americans is unknown. They are the only group throughout the diaspora, whose cultural elements and history was completely removed.

---

ISAIAH 65:15

"15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:"

JEREMIAH 17:4

"4 And thou, even thyself, shalt discontinue from thine heritage that I gave thee; and I will cause thee to serve thine enemies in the land which thou knowest not: for ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn for ever."

---

Red, White, and Blue + Christian has a thread on this, posted 19 June, 2012 14:35

Topic: African Admixture in Jews, Others and the Jewish African mtDNA

Zarahan knows better.

This is by Zarahan aka Enrique Cardova posted 12 December, 2011 20:56:

quote:

---

Assorted demic diffusion theories
holding a mass influx of Europeans or
Middle Easterners to Africa bringing
cattle and agriculture to the natives is not
supported by credible evidence.
Indigenous development is most
likely.

"Furthermore, the archaeology of
northern Africa DOES NOT SUPPORT
demic diffusion of farming from the Near
East. The evidence presented by
Wetterstrom indicates that early African
farmers in the Fayum initially
INCORPORATED Near Eastern
domesticates INTO an INDIGENOUS
foraging strategy, and only OVER TIME
developed a dependence on horticulture.
This is inconsistent with in-migrating
farming settlers, who would have
brought a more ABRUPT change in
subsistence strategy. "The same
archaeological pattern occurs west of
Egypt, where domestic animals and,
later, grains were GRADUALLY
adopted after 8000 yr B.P. into the
established pre-agricultural Capsian
culture, present across the northern
Sahara since 10,000 yr B.P. From this
continuity, it has been argued that the
pre-food-production Capsian peoples
spoke languages ancestral to the Berber
and/or Chadic branches of Afroasiatic,
placing the proto-Afroasiatic period
distinctly before 10,000 yr B.P."

Source: The Origins of Afroasiatic
Christopher Ehret, S. O. Y. Keita, Paul
Newman;, and Peter Bellwood
Science 3 December 2004: Vol. 306. no.
5702, p. 1680

---

 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
And Lachish has Judah era bones a plenty.
Surely one ear bone has yielded up its
secrets in an Israeli lab.

---

Wormian bone formation in the skeletal population from Lachish

D.J.Finkel
Journal of Human Evolution
Volume 5, Issue 3, May 1976, Pages 291-295

New Radiocarbon-Based Assessment Supports the Prominence of Tel Lachish during Late Bronze Age IB-IIA

Lyndelle Webster et al.
Published online by Cambridge University Press: 18 November 2019

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
And Lachish has Judah era bones a plenty.
Surely one ear bone has yielded up its
secrets in an Israeli lab.

---

Yes, have you heard of or seen this study? I found it on ES a year or two ago:

"D. L. Risdon in BIOMETRIKA 1939 31:99-166, 1939 31:99-166 reports the Lachish cranial series has its closest resemblance to the 4th dynasty series from Deshasheh and Medum in Lower Egypt and the 18th dynasty samples from Thebes and Abydos in Upper Egypt. Cranial samples from other Palestinian sites (Gezer, Megiddo) agree with the Lachish cranium. Thus we have a clear African "racial" continuum in the Hebrews and Egyptians."

---

Is this you on hebrewsphere.com?
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
@Tazarah

Great research...I need time to read the thread on lipstick alley...


bawawah! So Agent GarFool's name on lipstick alley is "nastynorc"??? outing himself as a NARC I see.. the guilty always tell on themselves.





As a person who follows geo politics closely I don't wholesale trust any ancient DNA studies coming from the Near East... everything is shrouded in political goals and aspirations including history/archaeology.. just see what happened with the Ebla tablets.

I find Israel Finklestien's lectures interesting he does seem to always downplay the areas of ancient Israel where you would have found Judah & Simeon frequently describing them as backwater where nothing much was "happening"..... just a thing that makes me go mmm.....

quote:

---

Previous genetic studies have suggested a history of sub-Saharan African gene flow into some West Eurasian populations after the initial dispersal out of Africa that occurred at least 45,000 years ago. However, there has been no accurate characterization of the proportion of mixture, or of its date. We analyze genome-wide polymorphism data from about 40 West Eurasian groups to show that almost all Southern Europeans have inherited 1%–3% African ancestry with an average mixture date of around 55 generations ago, consistent with North African gene flow at the end of the Roman Empire and subsequent Arab migrations. Levantine groups harbor 4%–15% African ancestry with an average mixture date of about 32 generations ago, consistent with close political, economic, and cultural links with Egypt in the late middle ages. We also detect 3%–5% sub-Saharan African ancestry in all eight of the diverse Jewish populations that we analyzed. For the Jewish admixture, we obtain an average estimated date of about 72 generations. This may reflect descent of these groups from a common ancestral population that already had some African ancestry prior to the Jewish Diasporas.

Go to:

---

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3080861/

quote:

---

A striking finding from our study is the consistent detection of 3–5% sub-Saharan African ancestry in the 8 diverse Jewish groups we studied, Ashkenazis (from northern Europe), Sephardis (from Italy, Turkey and Greece), and Mizrahis (from Syria, Iran and Iraq). This pattern has not been detected in previous analyses of mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosome data [7], and although it can be seen when re-examining published results of STRUCTURE-like analyses of autosomal data, it was not highlighted in those studies, or shown to unambiguously reflect sub-Saharan African admixture [15], [38]. We estimate that the average date of the mixture of 72 generations (∼2,000 years assuming 29 years per generation [30]) is older than that in Southern Europeans or other Levantines. The point estimates over all 8 populations are between 1,600–3,400 years ago, but with largely overlapping confidence intervals. It is intriguing that the Mizrahi Irani and Iraqi Jews—who are thought to descend at least in part from Jews who were exiled to Babylon about 2,600 years a

---

Considering these facts.. I find the red headed guys SUPER INTERESTING... who are they? when did they convert and how was it that they are dominant in the European art in the Medieval era... and how is it that that European Christians could not distinguish between themselves and Jews and thus requiring Jews to wear Hats and Stars to delineate between Jews and Christians.. I should probably read Schorcsh's book




^^^^Origin of the Ashkenazi Jews by Geolocation... So the red headed Retenu in Rakmire's tomb had to have come by boat... no way they walked across the desert..

quote:

---

The Rhineland hypothesis cannot explain why a name that denotes “Scythians” and was associated with the Near East became associated with German lands in the Eleventh to Thirteenth centuries (Wexler, 1993). Aptroot (2016) suggested that Jewish immigrants in Europe transferred Biblical names onto the regions in which they settled. This is unconvincing. Biblical names were used as place names only when they had similar sounds. Not only Germany and Ashkenaz do not share similar sounds, but Germany was already named “

---

quote:

---

The Sarmatians (/sɑːrˈmeɪʃiənz/; Greek: Σαρμάται, Σαυρομάται; Latin: Sarmatae [ˈsar.mat̪ae̯], Sauromatae [sau̯ˈrɔmat̪ae̯]) were a large Iranian confederation that existed in classical antiquity, flourishing from about the 5th century BC to the 4th century AD.

Originating in the central parts of the Eurasian Steppe, the Sarmatians were part of the wider Scythian cultures.[1] They started migrating westward around the 4th and 3rd centuries BC, coming to dominate the closely related Scythians by 200 BC. At their greatest reported extent, around 1st century AD, these tribes ranged from the Vistula River to the mouth of the Danube and eastward to the Volga, bordering the shores of the Black and Caspian seas as well as the Caucasus to the south.

---

quote:

---

The Khazars' tribal structure is not well understood. They were divided between Ak-Khazars ("White Khazars") and Kara-Khazars ("Black Khazars"). The Arab writer Istakhri claimed that the White Khazars were strikingly handsome with reddish hair, white skin and blue eyes while the Black Khazars were swarthy verging on deep black as if they were some kind of Indian

---

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@Ish Geber

Yes, that is me
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
[QB] @Tazarah

Great research...I need time to read the thread on lipstick alley...


bawawah! So Agent GarFool's name on lipstick alley is "nastynorc"??? outing himself as a NARC I see.. the guilty always tell on themselves.

---

https://spyro.fandom.com/wiki/Gnasty_Gnorc
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Jews in 15th to 17th Century Portugal Were Black People [Troll Edition]

Thread starter Tazarah
Aug 26, 2020

Lipstick Alley

https://www.lipstickalley.com/threads/jews-in-15th-to-17th-century-portugal-were-black-people-troll-edition.3853002/

________________________


Taz in the above thread of yours it says:

This one is for all of the trolls who came to my other thread yesterday about how the banished Jews of Portugal during the Spanish Inquisition were black people.

Source:
Jews Banished From Portugal During the Spanish Inquisition Were Negroes
(title of original thread)

__________________

^^ what happened to that original thread it seems to have disappeared?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Taz have you posted this Portuguese stuff on any Hebrew Israelite forums?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Taz, I think when looking the expulsion of the Jews in 1492 following the Alhambra Decree in 1492 it is usually referred to as the Expulsion of Jews from Spain

So maybe you should focus on the black Jews of Spain rather than Portugal, just trying to help here before you get too committed to Portugal.
Portugal was a part of this but not the center of it.
Hear me out, don't go into instant defense mode

______________________________

quote:

---

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-spanish-expulsion-1492

In the end, only eight Portuguese Jews were actually expelled

In the same month in which their Majesties [Ferdinand and Isabella] issued the edict that all Jews should be driven out of the kingdom and its territories, in the same month they gave me the order to undertake with sufficient men my expedition of discovery to the Indies. So begins Christopher Columbus's diary. The expulsion that Columbus refers to was so cataclysmic an event that ever since, the date 1492 has been almost as important in Jewish history as in American history.
On July 30 of that year, the entire Jewish community,

some 200,000 people, were expelled from Spain.


The most fortunate of the expelled Jews succeeded in escaping to Turkey. Sultan Bajazet welcomed them warmly. "How can you call Ferdinand of Aragon a wise king," he was fond of asking, "the same Ferdinand who impoverished his own land and enriched ours?" Among the most unfortunate refugees were those who fled to neighboring Portugal. In 1496, King Manuel of Portugal concluded an agreement to marry Isabella, the daughter of Spain's monarchs. As a condition of the marriage, the Spanish royal family insisted that Portugal expel her Jews. King Manuel agreed, although he was reluctant to lose his affluent and accomplished Jewish community.

In the end, only eight Portuguese Jews were actually expelled; tens of thousands of others were forcibly converted to Christianity on pain of death. The chief rabbi, Simon Maimi, was one of those who refused to convert. He was kept buried in earth up to his neck for seven days until he died. In the final analysis, all of these events took place because of the relentless will of one man, Tomas de Torquemada.

The Spanish Jews who ended up in Turkey, Africa, Italy, and elsewhere throughout Europe and the Arab world, were known as Sephardim — Sefarad being the Hebrew name for Spain. After the expulsion, the Sephardim imposed an informal ban forbidding Jews from ever again living in Spain. Specifically because their earlier sojourn in that country had been so happy, the Jews regarded the expulsion as a terrible betrayal, and have remembered it ever since with particular bitterness. Of the dozens of expulsions directed against Jews throughout their history, the one from Spain remains the most infamous.

The Alhambra Decree was officially overturned on December 16, 1968, at the Second Vatican Council.
_______________________________________

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_Decree

Alhambra Decree

A majority of Sephardim migrated to Portugal, where they gained only a few years of respite from persecution. About 600 Jewish families were allowed to stay in Portugal following an exorbitant bribe until the Portuguese king entered negotiations to marry the daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella. Caught between his desire for an alliance with Spain and his economic reliance on the Jews, Manuel I declared the Jewish community in Portugal (perhaps then some 10% of that country's population) Christians by royal decree unless they left the country. In return, he promised the Inquisition would not come to Portugal for 40 years. He then seized the Jews who tried to leave and had them forcibly baptized, after separating them from their children.[3] It was years before the Jews who fled to Portugal were allowed to emigrate. When the ban was lifted, many of them fled to the Low Countries, or the Netherlands.

---

_______________________________________________

TAZ eventually your Portugal theory is going to flop because most Jews in Portugal wound up there as refuges from Spain but all is not lost. Before giving up the whole theory all you have to do is switch to black Jews of Spain because of the Jews who were expelled to various places including Africa they were coming from primarily from Spain. Some went to Portugal but most of them in Portugal converted under threat to Christianity.

So given this historic fact that the Expulsion of the Jews from Spain

to various places including Africa, Portugal is very much secondary to Spain as regards to the Expulsion of 1492 so in light of this it makes more sense to argue that the Jews of Spain at the time were black and some migrated to Portugal and a smaller amount of Jews were already there

That is a better theory if you want to pursue black Jews in the region of the expulsion, Spain being the focal point, and this is where the Alhambra expulsion Decree was made in Alhambra Spain.

However if you want to stick to Portugal as being the main source for Jews in West Africa then you would have to at the same time say the Jews of Spain were not black.
But to you want to go there?
There were these 200,000 Jews expelled form Spain. Some migrated to Portugal, Turkey and other places. Many converted to Christianity also but only 8 were actually expelled form Portugal.



As we can see Portugal is not even the most Southerly part of the Iberian Peninsula

Go to any source for the 1492 Expulsion of the Jews. It says from Spain, not Portugal.
Some were expelled from there later also but to a vastly lesser extent

So if you start talking about Jews who had been in Portugal going into Africa, that is a much much lower amount than from Spain.

The Spanish Jews who ended up in Turkey, Africa, Italy, Portugal,throughout Europe and in the Arab world. They were known as Sephardim.
Therefore in looking at the Expulsion of Jews in 1492 there are a number of region involved
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Yup

Wrote and put that on the net back in '98 iirc.
Since Risdon's day, Keita has revisited that study's
craniometrics using additional populations the earlier
work hadn't included. Of course, as in any study, the more
bins available the greater the possible spread.

Discussion on that is in the ES archive.
Find it by searching for Keita Lachish.


ESers hell bent for Keita posit Lachish was an AE colony
instead of the 2nd most important city in Judah that it was.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Yes, have you heard of or seen this study? I found it on ES a year or two ago:

"D. L. Risdon in BIOMETRIKA 1939 31:99-166, 1939 31:99-166 reports the Lachish cranial series has its closest resemblance to the 4th dynasty series from Deshasheh and Medum in Lower Egypt and the 18th dynasty samples from Thebes and Abydos in Upper Egypt. Cranial samples from other Palestinian sites (Gezer, Megiddo) agree with the Lachish cranium. Thus we have a clear African "racial" continuum in the Hebrews and Egyptians."

---

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

First of all, you still haven't addressed my last response to you.

Second of all, the spanish Jews and portuguese Jews were the same people. They fled from spain and went into portugal. I've provided multiple sources and historical references stating that they were black/negro people with black/negro descendants.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
the spanish Jews and portuguese Jews were the same people. They fled from spain and went into portugal. I've provided multiple sources and historical references stating that they were black/negro people with black/negro descendants.

---

Yes Spain is the main source for the expulsion of Jews who left the Iberian peninsula including to Africa.
Many in Portugal converted to Christianity but few, after reaching Portugal went to Africa compared to those who came out of Spain (a lot more)

As for Portugal a notable vent:

In 1496, to punish the Jews of Portugal who would not pay the head tax of the state, King Manuel deported nearly 2,000 Jewish children, from the ages of two to ten, to the islands of São Tomé and Príncipe straddling the Equator west of Gabon. The King had wished to colonize the islands, under Portugal’s rule, but did not want to risk the lives of Portuguese men doing so. Nevertheless a year after, the children were disposed on the islands only 600 were found alive. Some of the children attempted to retain some semblance of their Jewish heritage and religion. Even into the early 1600s Jewish practices could still be observed on the islands, but by the 18th century most of the Jewish presence had perished. A new small community was established in the 19th and 20th centuries with the arrival of a few Jewish cocoa and sugar traders. Today there are no known practicing Jews living on the islands, but there remains a clear distinction in fair skin citizens, many of whom can trace their ancestry back to the Portuguese Jews.
______________________________

https://simmsdownunder.blogspot.com/2013/05/jewish-children-of-sao-tome.html

To a certain degree the history of the children who were forcibly removed from their parents, then hastily baptized, and sent to the Portuguese island colony of São Tomé in 1493 is highly speculative after the initial event in Lisbon. The first two facts—kidnapping and forced conversion—have general agreement amongst historians; however, how many children were involved and their ages is still subject to some debate. More significantly, what happened to them during the sea voyage to Africa and how many survived the trip and the first months and years in the tropical heat and subsequently over the next several generations down to the late sixteenth century is not agreed on—and often contested vociferously.

The state records of the Portuguese crown, as well as Jewish chronicles and memorial writings, further clarifies that these children were not originally Portuguese, but belonged to the families of Jews from Castile expelled by the Catholic Monarchs the previous year in 1492, and hence formed part of the Sephardic community that most resisted conversion over the previous hundred years, since the persecutions and pogroms following the 1391 riots.
Moreover, these Jewish children belonged to those families who could not pay the required transit tax imposed by the Portuguese government and consequently were declared slaves of the king.

________________________

I have lost interest on debating you if they are black or not.
You may not care about the details of how and why this expulsion occurred and in what specific places people went to and how their conditions were in these various places, Turkey, Africa, Italy, and elsewhere throughout Europe and the Arab world but I find this history interesting

If you think these are you ancestors than you should care about this history too not just skin color or people thinking they are "chosen" or preferred by God

However if you want still to talk about Jews of the 1492 Expulsion on Lipstick or somewhere the epicenter of that is Spain and it's Jews under the the Edict of Expulsion; Decreto de la Alhambra, by the joint Catholic Monarchs of Spain Isabella I of Castile and Ferdinand II of Aragon
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

This was never a debate, it was you spamming/trolling and deflecting from sources that prove you wrong.

You are the one who was challenging what race they were and you started spamming cherrypicked images.

You are in no position to teach anyone anything, all you do is play games and cause problems.

From what I have seen during my little time on this website, NOBODY TAKES YOU SERIOUSLY, at all.

don't @ me again unless you want to address the sources I've posted that you keep running from.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Other threads by Tazarah on Lipstick


Jew-ish professor admits Jews were always described as being black people up until the 16th century
Thread starter Tazarah
Nov 19, 2020

https://www.lipstickalley.com/threads/jew-ish-professor-admits-jews-were-always-described-as-being-black-people-up-until-the-16th-century.4115560/

________________________

"Negroes" who were Jews were more likely to be targeted, captured and sent as slaves to America
Thread starter Tazarah
Oct 21, 2020
https://www.lipstickalley.com/threads/negroes-who-were-jews-were-more-likely-to-be-targeted-captured-and-sent-as-slaves-to-america.4028524/

________________________

Jews in 15th to 17th Century Portugal Were Black People [Troll Edition]
Thread starter Tazarah
date Aug 26, 2020

https://www.lipstickalley.com/threads/jews-in-15th-to-17th-century-portugal-were-black-people-troll-edition.3853002/page-3

____________________________________
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Taz of the people in Africa who were transported to the United States how you we rank their numbers by religious affiliation?

Jews
Traditional African Religion
Christian
Muslim

^ this is random. What would the order be from highest population to lowest in number ?

I'm trying to get some perspective on this black Jew thing as per the USA
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

How do we deal with the fact that you are a troll who deflects and runs from sources when they prove you wrong?
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

This was never a debate, it was you spamming/trolling and deflecting from sources that prove you wrong.

You are the one who was challenging what race they were and you started spamming cherrypicked images.

You are in no position to teach anyone anything, all you do is play games and cause problems.

From what I have seen during my little time on this website, NOBODY TAKES YOU SERIOUSLY, at all.

don't @ me again unless you want to address the sources I've posted that you keep running from.

---

WELL SAID........
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Suriname's best kept Secret

Jodensavanne

In 1639, the English government allowed Black Jews from Portugal to settle in Suriname. They came first to the English settlement named Marshall's Creek but it was eventually abandoned. In 1652, a new group of approximately 1,200 Black Sephardi Jews migrated and settled in the Jodensavanne area, not far from Torarica which was the capitol then. Many of these Black Jews were part of a large-scale emmigration of the Jewish plantocracy of Pernambuco, who had been instrumental in the innovation and industrialization of the cultivation and processing of sugarcane.
A third group of Black Jews came in 1664, after their expulsion from Brazil and then French Guiana.
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Suriname's best kept Secret

Jodensavanne

In 1639, the English government allowed Black Jews from Portugal to settle in Suriname. They came first to the English settlement named Marshall's Creek but it was eventually abandoned. In 1652, a new group of approximately 1,200 Black Sephardi Jews migrated and settled in the Jodensavanne area, not far from Torarica which was the capitol then. Many of these Black Jews were part of a large-scale emmigration of the Jewish plantocracy of Pernambuco, who had been instrumental in the innovation and industrialization of the cultivation and processing of sugarcane.
A third group came in 1664, after their expulsion from Brazil and then French Guiana.

---

“Mariënburg is a former sugarcane plantation, factory and village, situated in the district of Commewijne, in northern Suriname.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marienburg,_Suriname?wprov=sfti1
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Stedman's paintings now, please.


Particularly the brown Akan(?) tailors
and the sallow Sephardi Tahor merchant
working next door each other.


Whoops
Oh Magoo you done it again.
Apologies for Stedman geese
insteada Benoit wild turkey.

http://slaveryimages.org/s/slaveryimages/item/2358/mirador


The Akan tailor shop owner, Petro Cofey Abouka was born on a Friday
and the Mughrebi(?) sole proprietor, Isak Abraham Levy Aron, is a Koheyn.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Het woord trefu is afgeleid van het Joods woord Tereifa. Dit
betekent letterlijk verscheurd. Terefa is een onderdeel van
Kasjroet, een systeem van spijswetten die in het Jodendom
bepalen of voedsel wel of niet door Joden gegeten mag
worden.

Het niet aanraken van een menstruerende vrouw is ook een
traditie dat je bij de Joden vindt. Dit wordt ook als zodanig
normaal beschouwd, dat er in deze maatschappij ruim
rekening wordt gehouden. Men spreekt van Kosherisatie in
eigen restaurants, maar ook andere horeca gelegenheden,
die worden gehuurd door Joden. Kosherisatie is het rein
houden en gebaseerd op het oude testament.

Het woord kaseri is afgeleid uit het woord kosher. Er moet
sprake zijn van kaseri bij het uitvoeren van bepaalde
(Winti) rituelen. Daarom wordt er vaak op save gespeeld bij
bepaalde rituelen en óf door mannen uitgevoerd, óf door
vrouwen die de menopauze zijn gepasseerd en dus niet meer
menstrueren.

In vroegere tijden heeft men gezien dat menstruatie en een
menstruerende vrouw invloed kon hebben op de voortgang van
bepaalde rituelen. Daarop zijn er maatregelen genomen om een
vrouw richtlijnen mee te geven.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
I had hoped to see Djo Tongo revived as a living African Hebrew
lect the same as Yiddish, Ladino, Haquetia, etc.

An example of the stuff I hadta shift thru to accrue 'academic' sources waybackindadaze.
Even in 1918 Rabs Ford and Matthew taught "'we are not negroes'" yet the article title


Sprinkles of inaccuracy? Sure, but this kinda entry
was the best of what you got from yte Jewish academia
before I engaged Kulanu and peppered Jewish yahoogroups
with posts on Africana Judaica from my gleanings.
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Het woord trefu is afgeleid van het Joods woord Tereifa. Dit
betekent letterlijk verscheurd. Terefa is een onderdeel van
Kasjroet, een systeem van spijswetten die in het Jodendom
bepalen of voedsel wel of niet door Joden gegeten mag
worden.

Het niet aanraken van een menstruerende vrouw is ook een
traditie dat je bij de Joden vindt. Dit wordt ook als zodanig
normaal beschouwd, dat er in deze maatschappij ruim
rekening wordt gehouden. Men spreekt van Kosherisatie in
eigen restaurants, maar ook andere horeca gelegenheden,
die worden gehuurd door Joden. Kosherisatie is het rein
houden en gebaseerd op het oude testament.

Het woord kaseri is afgeleid uit het woord kosher. Er moet
sprake zijn van kaseri bij het uitvoeren van bepaalde
(Winti) rituelen. Daarom wordt er vaak op save gespeeld bij
bepaalde rituelen en óf door mannen uitgevoerd, óf door
vrouwen die de menopauze zijn gepasseerd en dus niet meer
menstrueren.

In vroegere tijden heeft men gezien dat menstruatie en een
menstruerende vrouw invloed kon hebben op de voortgang van
bepaalde rituelen. Daarop zijn er maatregelen genomen om een
vrouw richtlijnen mee te geven.

---

That’s correct.

And from what I know that menstrual thing is in the Tanakh.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Oh, on that W Afr genomics in the
Bronze Age mid-south Levant ppls:

Why do people keep making pretend that unrelated
studies by Price and Moorjani showing W Afr
related genomic factors in the population
birthing the Israelites since before the
destruction of the kingdom of Israel

Then, witheld until this year, are the legacy
genetic stats from Patai again displaying the
factors `Am Israel shares with Africans.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted in this very thread just a month ago by Tukuler and already forgotten?:

Short and sweet on the genome tip

Yeah them two guys Moorjani^ and Price* [demonstrat]ed W Afr genomes in biblical Israelites.


* Sensitive detection of chromosomal segments of distinct ancestry in admixed populations
* http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19543370

Beduin 9% YRI 90 generations ago
inferred dates of 60–90 generations
correspond to about 2,000–4,000 years ago


^ The History of African Gene Flow into Southern Europeans, Levantines, and Jews
^ https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1001373

Iraqi Jews 4.5% W Afr ancestry 93-137 generations ago
3–5% sub-Saharan African ancestry in the 8 diverse Jewish groups
date of the mixture of 72 generations (∼2,000 years assuming 29 years per generation)
Iraqi Jews —who are thought to descend at least in part from Jews who were exiled to Babylon about 2,600 years ago— share the signal of African admixture.


=-=-=

Objectively, 'SenegalCongo' speaker genomes are
also an ancient Hebrew sub-strata population
geneticists date to Israel's formation era and
to Judea's final Roman destruction through the
Cyrenaica incident precipitating movements west
and south.

---

.

quote:

---

Originally posted 09MAR2021 by Tukuler:



Here're some select extracts.
cDe and Ry*O alleles data.
Can't remember if the Fy*O
data is from Cavalli-Sforza?





Glean whatever into your own insights.
Like southern Sepharadiym already
admixed with German Jews under their
authority, further deliberately
whitened their 'olive' skins by
intermarriage even with unconverted
whites. If female all generations from
her are legally non-Jewish. How many
white American Jews have such unknown
ancestry. None would want the consequences
if a fact like that became known at large.

---

.

Don't neglect to use those anytime W Afr genetics
and ancient Israel are doubted, denied, or dissed
anywhere in the world wide web you see fit.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
^^^^ that is an excellent source
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Thank you. Appreciate seeing contributions to
Knowledge being acknowledged and appreciated.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
THE LOST WORLD OF AFRICAN AMERICAN CANTORS 1915-1953
Tuesday Jun 15, 2021 1:00pm
online event

https://yivo.org/African-American-Cantors
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@Tukuler

Very good information. I wish I knew how to understand the DNA part better and what it means.

I do however, find the part about how the Jews were described as "mulattoes", "molatoes" or "mulata" very interesting.

Here is a painting from the year 1599 titled "The mulatto gentlement of Esmeraldas" by Andrés Sánchez Gallque.

I'm thinking this is what the sources you've shared from the years 1639, 1668 and 1857 were talking about when they said the Jews looked "mulatto", "molato" or "mulata".


 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Well in our days, two famous examples of truly
1/2 Afr 1/2 Euro parents people are Robert
Nesta Marley and Barack Hussein Obama. It is
possible both person's mum had a few trickles
of outside ancestry since of Western Hemisphere
residence. Otherwise, pretty much as 'pure' as
their sons' father.

More info on your Esmeralda trio @
Esmeraldas: 1st documented African polity in the Americas

Oh, ask away about the 'DNA', will answer as
able and maybe others into genetics may reply.


=-=-=

tL - nice snag on the upcoming AA cantors 100
years ago. It stops before the renowned hazan
R' Eliezer Brooks (z"l) of Panama before USA
antecedents.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
https://chnm.gmu.edu/worldhistorysources/analyzing/mcimages/danaq5.html

This is a portrait of three men. The portrait itself is made of oil paint on canvas. It’s a relatively large canvas, almost life-size. These men stand before us. There are three of them here, each with their names written in Spanish above their heads, as well as their ages. At the center, we see don Francisco de Arobe. He’s 56 years old. To our right, we see don Domingo, who is, we believe, 18 years of age, and on the other side, we see don Pedro, who is 22 years old. We believe that these two men are the sons of don Francisco de Arobe. All three men come from the northwest coast of Ecuador, a place called Esmeraldas, and today this painting is called the Mulatto Gentlemen of Esmeraldas. What this painting was called in the 16th century, we’re not exactly sure.

The painting was made in 1599 by a relatively well-known indigenous painter who was working in Quito at the time, a man named Andrés Sánchez Gallque. The small plaque on the painting in the gold frame with the writing over on the far right explains that the painting was commissioned by an official working in Quito as a gift to Philip the Third, the King of Spain. So we know that this painting was made as a kind of gift, perhaps a coronation gift, for the King of Spain. It is a portrait of three men who are, we know from historical documents at the time, of mixed ancestry. They are part indigenous or Indian and part African American: the sons of people who were once slaves brought to the Americas to work, perhaps in Quito, perhaps elsewhere, and native people. They appear before us here dressed in some of the finest clothing that we can imagine for native people at the time.
______________

http://solarey.net/three-mulattoes-esmeralda-ecuador-south-america/

The three men depicted in the painting are identified in the painting itself as Don Francisco (de) Arobe and (according to one source) his two sons. They wear abundant gold jewelry, much of which is typical of the Indians of the region. Their clothing is obviously European, and they carry spears. Each man is given the honorific title Don, a sign of respect in the Latin-Hispanic world. The title of the painting further identifies the men as “mulatto,” though they may in fact have been zambos, or Afro-Indian men.

–public.iastate.edu

It is a portrait of three men who are, we know from historical documents at the time, of mixed ancestry. They are part indigenous or Indian and part African American.

“Regional blackness as a force of self-liberation in Ecuador begins in Esmeraldas, and its origin occurs during a violent tropical storm and a movement of African rebellion. The documented history of Ecuador establishes the beginnings of Afro-Hispanic culture in what is now Esmeraldas, Ecuador, where a Spanish slaving ship ran aground in 1553. There a group of twenty-three Africans from the coast of Guinea, led by a black warrior named Antón, attacked the slavers and liberated themselves. Not long after, this group, together with other blacks entering the region, led by a ladino (Hispanicized black person) named Alonso de Illescas, came to dominate the region from northern Manabí north to what is now Barbacoas, Colombia. At this time (late sixteenth century) intermixture with indigenous peoples, to whom black people fled to establish their palenques (villages of self-liberated people – some fortified, some not), was such that their features were described as zambo (black-indigenous admixture), synonyms of which were negro (black) and mulato (mixed or hybrid black-white). …
… By 1599 black people were clearly in charge of what was called “La República de Zambos” or “Zambo Republic”. Zambo refers to people of colour who are descendants of Native Americans and African-Americans. In that year a group of Zambo chieftains, said to represent 100,000 or more Zambo people of Esmeraldas, trekked to Quito to declare loyalty to Spain. An oil painting of these chiefs from the emerald land of the Zambo Republic is portrayed by the “Indian artist” Adrián Sánchez Galgue [sic]; it is reportedly the earliest signed and dated painting from South America.”

Source: No Longer Invisible: Afro-Latin Americans Today. Minority Rights Group, ed. Minority Rights Publications, 1995, pp. 291-292.

–public.iastate.edu
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Oh yeah that's right people don't follow linx, so

[quote author="@altakruri" source="/post/21362/thread" timestamp="1582219582"]


Dunno but if Bubakar II was successful his mariner exploreres may've faced the same scenario as Anton & company


Africans would've been sacrificed and eaten
supposition of Bernard Ortiz de Montellano [RIP] https://wayne.academia.edu/bortiz

an off-white man adopting
Quetzacoatl a red man's nom
when posting here on ES.


Let's learn what actually did happen.

quote:

---

The kingdom of the Africans in the Esmeraldas land of Ecuador


[. . . .]


Beginning in 1540, slave [labor] was also needed in the newly founded Viceroyalty of Peru, in order to work the fields.

Spanish ships sailed from the port of Panama heading south bound for the City of Kings, later called Lima,
a name that evokes the Indians who were living in the area where Francisco Pizarro founded his capital.

One of those ships, whose owner was known as Alonso Illescas, went to Peru in October 1553. Inside this
ship there were twenty [enslaved] Africans (17 men and 6 women). One day, the ship anchored along the
coast of Esmeraldas for approximately 30 days due to a total lack of wind. When a slight breeze finally
arose, the Spanish sailed southbound again, but the captain decided to stop just after the Cape of San
Francisco, and dropped anchor in a bay called Portete.

The purpose of this stop was to find fresh water, fruit and possibly wild game, because during their brief
stay the food had finished. The Spaniards went ashore and took all the Africans along to help them
search for food. During their absence, there was a storm. The sailors who were in charge of the vessel
could not stop the dangerous swaying of the ship and eventually she crashed on a cliff and sank rapidly.

When the group that was looking for food returned to the bay, they realized that what had happened was
irreversible: the ship was destroyed and most of the goods were lost. Taking advantage of the confusing
situation, the Africans [took off] into the jungle.

The Spaniards were not quick-witted and instead of building a small vessel to continue sailing along the
coast, which might have saved them, they decided to walk down the coast, perhaps hoping to reach a
village inhabited by other Europeans.

Almost all of them died during this march: some of cerebral malaria, others of thirst and fatigue. Only a few
survivors reached a remote village inhabited by settlers, after months of hard walking, but died soon after.

The Africans, meanwhile, managed to seize some knives and muskets which the Spaniards had abandoned
in the area of the wreck. They went inside the jungle and entered in a village of indigenous Pidi, who were
short and stocky, and had very similar somatic characteristics to current northern Siberian indigenous people:
almond eyes, high cheekbones and very smooth black hair. For centuries these people had been accustomed
to a humid equatorial climate, with very lush and insidious forests. While the Africans, who were originally
from the Gulf of Guinea, found this environment very similar to their distant land, and adapted quickly.

Upon their arrival, the Pidi initially fled their village in terror. We can imagine their reaction, seeing 17
[well armed] men and 6 women with dark skin, different somatic features compared to theirs: flat nose,
prominent lips, and curly hair. [ I imagine it was the weaponry not the phenotype - YYT]

The Africans made themselves at home in the village and seized all the food they could find. A few
hours later, the natives returned and decided to drive the invaders from their territory. There was a
fierce battle but the Africans were victorious, particularly because they could count on the strength
of [muskets and] iron weapons, such as axes and knives, but also because they were physically stronger.

The Pidi suffered some losses, realized that the newcomers were tough souls and decided to surrender
to them.

In time, one of the Africans called Anton emerged as a leader. Only a few days after the wreck, one
of the most interesting cases of adaptation was going to happen in the Esmeraldas Ecuador's land,
an incredible case of symbiosis and syncretism between different cultures throughout the history of
mankind.

In the area there were other indigenous groups: the peaceful Niguas and the aggressive Campas,
who soon realized that the arrival of the African intruders created a situation of instability.

A few days later there was another bloody confrontation between the Africans led by Anton,
their allies, the Pidi, and a group of fearless Campas.

The Campas were victorious and six Africans and several Pidi were killed in the battle.
The Africans had to withdraw and, as a result of several successive clashes, only seven
men and three women survived overall.

After the death of Anton, a black man called Alonso Illescas took charge. He was a native of
Cape Verde who had lived for many years in Seville [enslaved by] the owner of the wrecked
ship and had been baptized with the same name of his former Spanish [enslaver].

At this point, the Africans realized that they were surrounded by hostile indigenous groups
that would have killed them eventually, so they decided to carry out a diabolical plan: each
potentially dangerous native was put to death; only the elderly, women and children, would
have stayed alive. [Some Africans' rules of war target fighting age males only - YYT]

It was a real war for survival: the majority of the Campas were murdered.

Alonso Illescas was appointed chief of the Niguas and the remaining Campas,
and a young beautiful wife was offered to him as a bride.

After a few months of relative peace, Alonso Illescas was invited to a party
by a powerful Indian chief named Chilindauli, who was the king of the
neighboring valley, near the current San Mateo Bay.

In full celebration, while the ‘cacique’ Chilindauli and other Indians were
drunk, Alonso Illescas and the other Africans attacked the villagers, killing
the chief and most of his soldiers.

It was a shameful[?] act, but it is possible that Alonso Illescas premeditated
it to avoid falling victim of the locals.

After this ignoble[?] victory, Alonso Illescas became the undisputed ruler
of the entire area and even managed to loot the nearby town of Puerto
Viejo, inhabited by Spaniards and Indians. By 1565, Illescas dominated
an immense area and its growing power was beginning to worry the
Spanish settlers of Puerto Viejo.

Meanwhile, the remaining seven Africans had mixed with several native women, and by
1600, forty-seven years after the wreck, there were about fifty “zambos”, or children of
the union between Africans and Amerindians.


[Note the painting actually reads: Black male + Indian female = Wolf. Lobo not Zambo is in the legend.]

During these years in the ancestral lands of the Pidi, Campas and Niguas, the Africans adopted some
practices, customs and traditions of the locals they had conquered. There was a syncretism between
African tribal religion and local beliefs, based on the cult of the Sun and the Moon.

Anton Illescas and his lieutenants were adorned with gold jewelry that they proudly wore on their faces
as well as dazzling emerald rings on their fingers. They even wore cotton garments woven by the natives,
but also used some typical Spanish conqueror accessories such as white cotton necklaces, seen in the main picture.



The Spanish of Puerto Viejo decided that it was not wise to organize a military expedition against
the militia of Illescas, and they granted them privileges, such as the title of governor, to those
rebels who converted themselves to Christianity.

Miguel Cabello Balboa, author of “Verdadera descripción y relación larga de la Provincia y Tierras
de las Esmeraldas” (True work description and long relationship of the Province and Lands of
Esmeraldas), was sent to negotiate with Illescas in order to gain the submission of his kingdom
to the Spanish Crown, but returned to Puerto Viejo empty handed.

In 1598, the black Esmeraldas ‘caciques’ had further consolidated their rule and became the main
enemies of the Spanish government in Quito, which was increasingly concerned about those rebel
regions so hostile to the Crown, and focused his attention on how to overthrow them. Despite all this
antagonism and hostility, in 1607, the black chief Sebastian Illescas (a successor of Alonso), was still
the undisputed ruler of the Esmeraldas area.

During the following century, the “zambos” population grew and many of them settled in the villages
of Old Esmeraldas and Atacames. It is estimated that, in 1670, the descendants of the Africans who
survived the ship wreck were hundreds.

During the following centuries there were other waves of “forced” migrants to Ecuador, a country where
presently 75% of the population is mixed, while those of African origin are 5% of the total population,
just under 700,000 people.


YURI LEVERATTO
Copyright 2010

Translated by Vinicio Dinelli, Rome, Italy

---

.

NOTE:
I added two images purely for illustration only
not that they are any actual people in the text.
See on
http://www.blackhistoryheroes.com/2014/07/africans-of-esmeraldas-ecuador-look-at.html
through Afr Diaspora eyes

http://www.theroot.com/articles/history/2014/01/blacks_in_western_art_trio_from_esmeraldas_has_historic_ties_to_escaped.2.html
but beware of Skippyisms [/quote]
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 
Back to the Gao.

quote:

---

The Songhai Empire was the largest and last of the three major pre-colonial empires to emerge in West Africa. From its capital at Gao on the Niger River, Songhai expanded in all directions until it stretched from the Atlantic Ocean (modern Senegal and Gambia) to what is now Northwest Nigeria and central Niger. Gao, Songhai’s capital, which remains to this day a small Niger River trading center, was home to the famous Goa Mosque and the Tomb of Askia, the most important of the Songhai emperors. The cities of Timbuktu and Djenne were the other major cultural and commercial centers of the empire.

The Songhai people founded Gao around 800 A.D. and established it as their capital in the 11th century during the reign of Dia Kossoi. As the city and region grew in importance, the Malian Empire incorporated both as it expanded across the West African savanna.

---

https://www.blackpast.org/global-african-history/songhai-empire-ca-1375-1591/





Dr. Shomarka Keita UNC Seminar 2012



40:54 even when it comes to Saharan Jews you
40:56 sometimes find markers that are there
41:00 that are quote sub-saharan you know
41:03 instead of super saiyan or sometimes you
41:05 find Berber markers there well there
41:07 were Judea sized Berbers but there were
41:09 also situations where unfortunately
41:11 there were pogroms against Jews and
41:13 Saharan Oasis men were killed what did
41:16 the women do I think that some of the
41:18 women converted some of their servants
41:23 slaves to Judaism and married them in
41:25 order to have men in the house but
41:28 you know I don't know that but I've
41:29 talked to rabbis about that and they say
41:30 well yeah that could have happen there's
41:32 nothing in Jewish law that says you
41:33 couldn't do that okay here we have all
41:38 of these maps show the the Sahel Belt
41:41 kingdoms this one uh figures born new in
41:45 the center in the orange the born new
41:47 Kingdom was basically unfortunately a
41:48 slave state
41:49 the Balala I mean they made their money
41:52 trading in slaves they actually had
41:55 relations with the ottomans and we have
42:00 literature that speaks to that

https://youtu.be/h4sbLY6rxxg?t=2434
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Well in our days, two famous examples of truly
1/2 Afr 1/2 Euro parents people are Robert
Nesta Marley and Barack Hussein Obama. It is
possible both person's mum had a few trickles
of outside ancestry since of Western Hemisphere
residence. Otherwise, pretty much as 'pure' as
their sons' father.

More info on your Esmeralda trio @
Esmeraldas: 1st documented African polity in the Americas

Oh, ask away about the 'DNA', will answer as
able and maybe others into genetics may reply.


=-=-=

tL - nice snag on the upcoming AA cantors 100
years ago. It stops before the renowned hazan
R' Eliezer Brooks (z"l) of Panama before USA
antecedents.

---

Thank you

My main question about the DNA is what is it basically saying? In layman terms for someone who is not familiar with genetics
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
More evidence that the Portuguese Jews who were expelled from Portugal during the Inquisition were black/negro people.

"Negro-Portuguese, originally introduced into Surinam by Portuguese Jews, is now spoken only by one tribe of the free Bush Negroes, the Saramaccans, on the Upper Surinam, who call it Djoe-tonggo, 'Jews' language.'"

"Introduction to the Science of Language, Volume 1" by Archibald Henry Sayce, page 224 (1880) London, Paul

https://archive.org/details/introductiontosc01saycuoft
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
[QUOTE] One of them was
Wulff Josef Wulff, a Danish Jew who in 1836 arrived in Christiansborg at the age of 23. Soon after his arrival, he noted similarities between the natives and his Jewish tradition. He for instance
wrote to his parents: “The songs they sing while paddling are a mixture of the Negro language, English, Portuguese, as well as
Hebrew. There are, in fact, Jews here among the Negroes, but the truth is that they are just as ignorant heathens as the others and do
not know where they originated”.1033 The passage from this letter is intriguing, as it is the only Western Jewish eyewitness account
of this time (to the best of my knowledge) that repeats Bosman’s earlier account. The Jewish identity of the natives is his opinion
and it does not appear that Jewish identity was expressed as self identification among the Ga-Adangme at the time, as he mentions
their “ignorance” of their origin. The fact that Wulff mentions the mixture of Portuguese and Hebrew with local languages would appear to strengthen the argument of an earlier Sephardi element among the Ga-Adangme. Could it be that the narrative of some
families with a Sephardi origin merged into a more general GaAdangme narrative of a Jewish or Hebrew-Israelite origin? The question must be left open at this point. /QUOTE]

http://ugspace.ug.edu.gh/bitstream/handle/123456789/32507/In%20my%20Fathers%20house.pdf?sequence=1
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 
A dictionary

http://www.suriname-languages.sil.org/Saramaccan/National/SaramNLDictIndex.html

quote:

---

Saramaccan

(Saramaccan: Saamáka) is a creole language spoken by about 58,000 ethnic African people near the Saramacca and upper Suriname River, as well as in the capital Paramaribo, in Suriname (formerly also known as Dutch Guiana), 25,000 in French Guiana, and 8,000 in the Netherlands. It has three main dialects. The speakers are mostly descendants of fugitive slaves who were native to West and Central Africa; they form a group called Saamacca, also spelled Saramaka.

Origins

The language is derived from Plantation Creole which is nowadays known as Sranan Tongo, but the branch diverted around 1690, and evolved separately. The Saramaccan lexicon is largely drawn from English, Portuguese, and, to a lesser extent, Dutch, among European languages, and Niger-Congo languages of West Africa, especially Fon and other Gbe languages, Akan, and Central African languages, such as KiKongo. The African component accounts for about 50% of the total.

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saramaccan_language?wprov=sfti1
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 
This issue has been resolved. Yes, there was Judaisms in West Africa in 1714.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
This issue has been resolved. Yes, there was Judaisms in West Africa in 1714.

---

Yes, Black Portuguese Sephardic traders settled in two communities on Senegal's Petite Côte where they lived publicly as Jews, under the spiritual guidance of a rabbi sent to them by the newly established Black Portuguese Jewish community in Amsterdam. In Senegal, the Jews were protected from agents of the Inquisition by local Muslim rulers. The blade weapons trade was an important part of their commercial activities. These Black Portuguese merchants also participated in the slave trade but and in the arms trade, illegally supplying West African markets with swords. This blade weapons trade depended on artisans and merchants based in Morocco, Lisbon, and northern Europe and affected warfare in the Sahel and along the Upper Guinea Coast.
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:
This issue has been resolved. Yes, there was Judaisms in West Africa in 1714.

---

Yes, Black Portuguese Sephardic traders settled in two communities on Senegal's Petite Côte where they lived publicly as Jews, under the spiritual guidance of a rabbi sent to them by the newly established Black Portuguese Jewish community in Amsterdam. In Senegal, the Jews were protected from agents of the Inquisition by local Muslim rulers. The blade weapons trade was an important part of their commercial activities. These Black Portuguese merchants also participated in the slave trade but and in the arms trade, illegally supplying West African markets with swords. This blade weapons trade depended on artisans and merchants based in Morocco, Lisbon, and northern Europe and affected warfare in the Sahel and along the Upper Guinea Coast.

---

After many years of debates going on, on the internet, we can now say, yes it has a long history going back to ancient Egypt and did make it's way into parts of West Africa. Further details are always welcome.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Slaves Sing YHWH Song in Amistad

Steven Spielberg movie/clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vVYBzn1vxE
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
Slaves Sing YHWH Song in Amistad

Steven Spielberg movie/clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vVYBzn1vxE

---

I love this scene
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Keep in mind... the source says Judaism was the religion of the * ancient * West Africans.... ancient.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
That's just a movie Recalling from JJ Wms, Nyame is the personal name of a Gulf
deity equivalent in both the two syllable alleged pronunciation and the 'omni' attributes.



In a bygone era George Allen booksellers in Philly was like shopping an early-mid 20th century university library.

=-=-=


Africa is large and what happens in one region may be unique.
I doubt the S&P anusi branches were very unique one to another.
Atlantic speaking Africa may however differ when it comes to
Amsterdam, the mahhamad, and trans-Atlantic dynamics. of course
by the time lançandos were smuggling Torah scrolls and prayerbooks
clear to Angola, Mauritania's Jewish region had long fallen to Lemtuna
and al-Maghili (curse him), 'Hitler' of south Algeria's Tamentit Tuati, had
instructed Songhai's emperor and other Sahel/Savanna potentates that the
act of demolishing a synagogue is a meritorious one and not to do business
with Jewish merchants as far as to confiscate all goods of anyone patronizing them.


Senegal



Passover hosts from Cardozo(1987) Sephadic Songs of Praise p41.


Something in the red square below that the greatgrandaddy of Africana Judaica
https://pictures.abebooks.com/inventory/30881216545.jpg
documentors warned about the S&P Jewish youth shipped to Sao Tome applies
to the dispersed Sephardi Portugueza Nação, and other Jews even in Ashkenaz.

The blue lozenge anticipates pokers and prodders of
the authenticity of West African Jews in the Americas.



They always like to make it seem the sex was one
way only -- outsider males on African females.
What he doesn't tell you is something I found in
a little Portuguese book saying Iberian females
married African males just as the Iberian males
married African females. The source said that
was because Iberian on Iberian marriage was
generally infertile. This lends to Sao Tome
uniqueness among Atlantic Ocean S&P 'way stations'.


When the 500th Anniversary of the Expulsion from Sepharad
was commemorated, the poster put out neglected all points
south of Morocco. Though when suing the Amsterdam mahhamad
for separate national status in 18th century Suriname, African
descendants were told they were of the "Portuguese Jewish Nation"
whether all 8 great-grandparent were African or only one was.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 





IAO/YAW/YAO The Biblical God part 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Il8LA0eeNg8

IAO/YAW/YAO The Biblical God pt2: an Akan Interpretation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03DEq05lFpQ
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@Tukuler

Wow, thank you so much for all of that information in your last post!!! Excellent stuff.

Is the section circled in red saying that the [white] jewish men who married and had children with the black/african women weren't really semitic?


 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

Oduyoye, notes the incidence of the root Y-W- in the religious cults of the following West African peoples: Among the Fon (the voodoo or vodu cult of Benin Republic or Dahomey) we have the word "Yehwe," meaning: "spirit," "divine spirit." Among the Ewe of Togo, we have "Yeve," meaning also "divine spirit." Among the Gun (also of West Africa) we have "Yihwe" or "Yehwe" meaning "a "god" or "spirit or divine being. Among the Yoruba of the "slave coast" we have the antique virgin goddess Yewa ("our mother," "our lady" cognate

---

Eloah ( Hebrew) is cognate with Oluwa ( Yoruba )
Lagos City Chorales Nigeria Ise Oluwa, MUSICA SACRA INTERNATIONAL 2016
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_b88KyVvlM
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@Tukuler


Is the section circled in red saying that the [white] jewish men who married and had children with the black/african women weren't really semitic?

---

.


You're welcome.

Short and sweet.

Language is not looks.
Semitic is language.


Me? Short n Sweet?
I lost the original long drawn reply
Don't sue me


=-=-=


Good current reference reinforcing old Wms.
The Oluwa Eloah cognizance is dead on the money.
The Tetragrammaton is a personal name though.

Will have to check
Modupe Oduyoye (2015)
The Sons of the Gods and the Daughters of Men:
An Afro-Asiatic Interpretation of Genesis 1-11

Calls Doc Ben's Our Black Seminarians and Black Clergy Without a Black Theology to my mind.


You seen that old movie where the story of Dina
is enacted as a West African Sahel happening?
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
ONYAME

O = The One and Only
Me = Self
Nya = Being

But how do we say 'become' in Hebrew? ' Nihya ,' which is passive of Hebrew verb 'lihyot,' or ' to be

Nyame = Nihya?

Nyama from the Mande ( blacksmith) ( kenite?) for occult power or means
Nyaama Fulfude


The traditional English translation within Judaism favors "I will be what I will be" because there is no present tense of the verb "to be" in the Hebrew language.

quote:

---

Finally, the combination of 'elohim and yhwh needs to be addressed. It is possible that 'elohim functions as a title and yhwh as a personal name -- much the way the words "King David" go together. It is also possible that yhwh 'elohim is a construct relationship, and that (for the J writer, at least) it clarifies who yhwh is: YHWH of the (council of the) gods. This would explain why the phrase is used in Genesis 2 and 3, but never combined again in this way by J.

Still, the two words are put together hundreds of times in a slightly different way. The word 'elohim very often carries a suffix: eloheyka, for instance, = "your God". In such cases, yhwh ' eloheyka> is "YHWH your god". In the Shema, the two function as a nominal clause: "YHWH [is] your god."

---

JOURNAL ARTICLE
NYAMA AND HEKA: AFRICAN CONCEPTS OF THE WORD
Christopher Wise
Comparative Literature Studies
Vol. 43, No. 1/2 (2006), pp. 19-38 (20 pages)
Published By: Penn State University Pres

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si2UST1_n8w
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
The more current the sources the better the argument.
This is all so interesting learning comparative views
and the linguistics behind African languages and concepts.

=-=-=

Well no doubt to Israels, HaShem, i.e., the Tetragrammaton,
is a noun, the proper personal name of Israels' deity as so
communicated to them. David King of Israel told them to
commonly only use the nickname Yah. The first two or three
letters of the Four Letter Name are used in people's personal
names. I call them 'Yahu'phoric names. Proper Hebrew language
names with a grammatically correct prefix or suffix for Yah.



The ancient Hebrew document Shemoth at 6:1 and 6:3
records its first revelation to anyone in the lineage.

אֲנִ֥י יְהוָֽה i.e., " I am 'Tetragrammaton' " and
וּשְׁמִי יְהוָה i.e., " My name 'Tetragrammaton' "

It was unknown to Israels and their ancestors who
understood their deity as El Shaddai, literally
god almighty.


It's a 'rapper' who in one composition, Tehilim at 68:5,
impresses praise from the common tongue should use Yah.
בְּיָ֥הּ שְׁמ֗וֹ i.e., "by Yah His name"
♪ Igziabeher (Let Jah Be Praised) (link)

Yahuphoric names precede the Psalms and the most
used way to praise Yah is to praise Yah (hallelu Yah).
How that became a poke fun word in English is beyond me.
It does however show why the pronunciation of the
Tetragrammaton was extremely curtailed by Israels.

By 2nd Temple Judea, The Name was only pronounced
during the Atonement services. When the assembled
people heard the Koheyn Gadhol say it, they fell flat
on their faces. Superstition or not that's the way it
was and why it still goes unpronounced by African,
Asian, and orthodox European Jews. Yemenite kids
learn it once, as it appears in prayerbooks where
Tetragrammaton is written with Ado[nom] in the H.

" Where you see 'eh oh ah' you say 'ah oh i' "
swapping out the actual sounded consonants too.


I feel HaShem is best translated as the Eternal.
The Name seems a conflation of Was-Is-WillBe as
heard in song at least every Shabbat among Israels

וְהוּא הָיָה
וְהוּא הֹוֶה
וְהוּא יִהְיֶה

a workout of the verb 'to be' in linear time oriented 'tenses'.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

Is the section circled in red saying that the [white] jewish men who married and had children with the black/african women weren't really semitic?

---

OK. Think this is more or less how I originally wanted to reply.

=-=-=

Alright, that's Godbey rapping Reade's knuckles
over Jewish 'racial' phenotype expectations.
The Lost Tribes a Myth is a platinum mine.
Not so user friendly and could easily trip
up readers without the background to
vet the author. Ask me how I know (ouch).


Keeping in mind the times of the author I think
he's telling his readers that any imagined so-
called Semitic phenotype is in the mind of the
'imaginer' not a workaday reality.

It's a ~$4,000 book so just have to put up with
the rotated pages available online. One can learn
boucoupe from the TOC alone. Then there are many
illustrations and photos of various communities of
the One True Scattered Whole House of Israel
with a full flower garden of our phenotypes and
complexions nearly everywhere around the globe.

As an enthusiast Godbey overshoots the mark
at times. Nevertheless he's erudite. He
gives 1000's of citations still very
useful for current investigators of
Lost Tribes fantasies who are carefully
critical to vet the author's assertions,
theories and conclusions before accepting them.


 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
Now here is a find..

Jew's mallow Greens Molokiyah

Jew's mallow is a common name for several flowering plants and may refer to:

Corchorus olitorius (Arabic Mulukhiyah) in the mallow family (Malvaceae), cultivated for its edible leaves and jute fiber


Molokhiya was consumed in ancient Egyptian cuisine, where the name "molokhiya" is thought to have originated from



Levantine Style



Egyptian

quote:

---

The leaf is a common food in many tropical West African countries. It is believed that the "drip tips" on the leaves serve to shed excess water from the leaf from the heavy rains in the tropics. In Sierra Leone it is called kren-kre (krain krain or crain crain), and is eaten in a palm oil sauce served with rice or cassava fufu (a traditional food made from cassava), or else is steamed and mixed into rice just before eating a non-palm oil sauce. Among the Yorubas in south-west Nigeria, it is called ewedu and served with cooked yam flour (amala). In Liberia it is called palaver sauce, and is served with rice or fufu. In The Gambia it is referred to as kereng-kereng and is typically used to make supakanja (a dish mostly served on Saturdays and made with okra, red palm oil, fish and meat).[citation needed]

In Ghana, it is known as Ademe ewe or Ayoyo leaves and used to make accompanying soups for Banku(a corn cassavas dough dish) or cooked rice)

---

Ewedu is a traditional soup native to the Yoruba part of Nigeria it is often served with Amala or any other .




Nigerian style

---

quote:

---

Meanwhile, the rabble among them had a strong craving for other food, and again the Israelites wept and said, “Who will feed us meat? We remember the fish we ate freely in Egypt , along with the cucumbers, melons , leeks, onions, and garlic. But now our appetite is gone; there is nothing to see but this manna!”…

---

quote:

---

The origins and early history of the pentateuchal prohibition against eating finless and scaleless aquatic species (Lev 11:9–12; Deut 14:9–10) has yet to merit a detailed investigation. The present study is an initiatory attempt to attend to this lacuna by analysing 56 zooarchaeological assemblages of fish remains from 30 sites throughout the southern Levant from the Late Bronze Age through to the end of the Byzantine period (ca. 1550 BCE to 640 CE). A central conclusion of the study is that consumption of scaleless fish— especially catfish—was not uncommon at Judean sites throughout the Iron Age and Persian periods. Unlike the pentateuchal prohibitions against eating pork, the ban against finless and scaleless aquatic species apparently deviated from longstanding Judean dietary habits. The pentateuchal writers appear to have legislated this dietary restriction despite the lack of an old and widespread dietary tradition at its root. This conclusion should encourage us to rethink commonly held assumptions that other pentateuchal dietary proscriptions emerged out of earlier dietary ‘taboos’.

---

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/10.1080/03344355.2021.1904675
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Inlay, Late Bronze Age, Iron Age, Lachish



<< if this is the right img delete this notice; if not, delete both notice & img ~Tu~ >>


The Trustees of the British Museum
Image id:00613442001
Object type:inlay
Technique:incised
Findspot:Lachish
Materials:ivory
Period / culture:Late Bronze Age, Iron Age
Department:Middle East
Object reference numbers:132121
132122
132123
1956,1016.1
1956,1016.2
1956,1016.3
File size: 26.47 MB - 3600 x 2570px
30.48cm x 21.76cm @300ppi

https://www.bmimages.com/preview.asp?image=00613442001&itemw=4&itemf=0001&itemstep=1&itemx=21











female figurine... Bambara Smithsonian






[QUOTE] The archeological site of Bura is located in the Tillabéry Region, of the Tera Department, in southwest Niger.The Bura site consists of many individual necropoleis with coffins crested by unusually-distinctive terra cotta statuettes. The main necropolis itself has a diameter of about one kilometer. Burial mounds, religious altars, and ancient dwellings occur here over a large area. In 1983 a site 25 meters by 20 meters was excavated.This site was added to the UNESCO World Heritage Tentative List on May 26, 2006 in the Cultural category. /QUOTE]


An Archaeological Mystery: Why Ancient Hebrews Made Figurines of Naked Women
In First Temple-period Judah, statuettes of women holding up their breasts were apparently a must-have item, but were they images of Yahweh’s wife, fertility figurines, or something else?

https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium.HIGHLIGHT.MAGAZINE-why-ancient-hebrews-made-figurines-of-naked-women-1.9339933




[ 04. June 2021, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: Tukuler ]
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
FREE

Haven't read it but it seems extensive.
The most up to date research but I bet
it doesn't attribute the 'Jewish Lightning"
of Joden Svanna as retribution from the
Darhe Jesarim folk.


https://ia801805.us.archive.org/27/items/jewish-autonomy-in-a-slave-society-by-aviva-ben-ur/Jewish%20Autonomy%20in%20a%20Slave%20Society%20by%20Aviva%20Ben-Ur.pdf
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
The Tribe of Judah in Dahome (West Africa):

"The eye dwells with delight upon the numerous country villages, like the 115 towns of the tribe of Judah, and upon the thin forest of palms rising from the tapestry of herbage, here waving, there cut short, which combine to make this spot the Fridaus or Paradise of Dahome-land."

"A Mission To Gelele, King Of Dahome (Volume 1)" by Richard F. Burton, page 191 (1863) London: Tylston and Edwards

https://ia800300.us.archive.org/13/items/missiontogelelek01burtuoft/missiontogelelek01burtuoft.pd


ALT https://archive.org/details/cu31924086055724/page/n297/mode/2up?q=judah

[ 01. August 2021, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: Tukuler ]
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:


They always like to make it seem the sex was one
way only -- outsider males on African females.
What he doesn't tell you is something I found in
a little Portuguese book saying Iberian females
married African males just as the Iberian males
married African females. The source said that
was because Iberian on Iberian marriage was
generally infertile. This lends to Sao Tome
uniqueness among Atlantic Ocean S&P 'way stations'.

---

What book were you referring to here?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Unfortunately it's a lost book of my former library.
It was palm size and two hands thick.
The cover or dust jacket was a sepia tone graphic.
Probably published between 1965 and 1985.
Can't recall where I stumbled across it.
I used to search university town book shops
like other tourist go to sites & attractions.

Then again it coulda been from a little slim
black clothbound book on Portugal in Atlantic
Africa. If so it was one of those books only
bought for one sentence or one paragraph not
to be found or even heard of elsewhere. Can
tell by your refs you've come across 'hidden
gems' yourself.

Sorry, I foolishly gave away the resource center
catalog my then wife prepared on index cards. Guess
Dopo the Klown was in charge of my brain that day.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@Tukuler no worries, I have found a few gems here and there but I am particularly interested in the black spanish/portuguese Jews... I have been researching them a lot lately, any additional information or sources is welcome and greatly appreciated










 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

https://www.loc.gov/item/2018674105/
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Taz
Couldja goto
https://postimages.org/
and use the 320
or 640 width
resize function
thx!

As always, dbl thx!! 4/t lost, stolen, & strayed
data and the traveller/observer impression infos.

** Oh **
I think it was in one of those 2 books where it
says the international marriages were because
the Iberian Jewish youths were infertile among
themselves.


=-=-=
@ tL
I remember a pop r&b group of New Englander
Black Portuguese called Tavares from back when.
=-=-=


Of special interest, in that Torah Party for 5782 is just a few days away.
[ Warm memories of dancing at the Jews of India's Torah Parties over the years ] :

Jews were here @ http://jewswerehere.com/africa/midafrica/sao-tome-and-principe/
São Tomé e Príncipe
King Manuel I of Portugal exiled about 2,000 Jewish children under the age of ten, whose parents were unable to pay a head tax to São Tomé and Príncipe around 1500. When the parents of the children saw that the deportation was inevitable, they impressed on the children the importance of keeping the Laws of Moses; and some even married the children off to each other.

The entreaties of the parents apparently did not go in vain; for reports reached the Office of The Inquisition in Lisbon that in Sao Thome e Principe there were incidents of obvious Jewish observance. The Roman Catholic Church was greatly incensed. The Roman Catholic bishop appointed to San Thome e Principe in 1616, Pedro da Cunha Lobo, became obsessed with the problem.

According to an historical source, on Simhath Torah 1621, he was awakened by a procession, rushed out to confront them, and was so heartily abused by the demonstrators that in disgust he gave up and took the next ship back to Portugal.

Similarly, a number of Portuguese ethnic Jews were exiled to São Tomé after forced conversions to Catholicism.

[ . . . ]

Although Jewish practices faded over subsequent centuries, there are people in São Tomé and Príncipe who are aware of partial descent from this population.

The descendants of the child slaves are still a very distinctive section of the population, distinguished by their by their whiter skins, proud of their historic past and desirous of contact with Jews outside. Some Jewish customs seem to have continued, although by now mixed with heavy Creole society values and culture.

Today there are no known “practicing” Jews on the islands, but the descendants of these exiled children have expressed interest in learning more about the customs of their ancestors.



SIDEBAR:
Expect both the Israelite movement under Chief Rabbi Capers Funnye and Kulanu org
tobe there to assist any returnees and/or converts in this age of the ingathering
of scattered Israel. There are no lost tribes. The lost tribes is a non-jewish myth.

• 
  Deuteronomy 30:1-5
  And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse,
  which I have set before thee, and thou shalt bethink thyself among all the nations, whither the
  LORD thy God hath driven thee, and shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and hearken to His voice
  according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thy heart, and with
  all thy soul; that then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and
  will return and gather thee from all the peoples, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. If any
  of thine that are dispersed be in the uttermost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather
  thee, and from thence will He fetch thee. And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers
  possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and He will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
  
  Isaiah 11:11-13
  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord will set His hand again the second time
  to recover the remnant of His people, that shall remain from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from
  Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands
  of the sea. And He will set up an ensign for the nations, and will assemble the dispersed of
  Israel, and gather together the scattered of Judah from the four corners of the earth. The envy
  also of Ephraim shall depart, and they that harass Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not
  envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
  
  Jeremiah 31:9-10
  Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say:
  'He that scattered Israel doth gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.'
  For the LORD hath ransomed Jacob, and He redeemeth him from the hand of him that is
  stronger than he.
  
  Jeremiah 32:37
  Behold, I will gather them out of all the countries, whither I have driven them in Mine anger,
  and in My fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them back unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely;
  
  Ezekiel 11:16-17
  Thus saith the Lord GOD: Although I have removed them far off among the nations,
  and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet have I been to them
  as a little sanctuary in the countries where they are come; therefore say: Thus saith the
  Lord GOD: I will even gather you from the peoples, and assemble you out of the countries
  where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
  
  Ezekiel 20:34
  I will bring you out from the peoples,
  and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered,
  with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out;
  
  Ezekiel 28:25
  Thus saith the Lord GOD: When I shall have gathered the House of Israel
  from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified
  in them in the sight of the nations, then shall they dwell in their own
  land which I gave to My servant Jacob.
  
  Ezekiel 39:25-29
  Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD: Now will I bring back the captivity of Jacob,
  and have compassion upon the Whole House of Israel; and I will be jealous for My
  holy name. And they shall bear their shame, and all their breach of faith which
  they have committed against Me, when they shall dwell safely in their land, and
  none shall make them afraid; when I have brought them back from the peoples, and
  gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight
  of many nations. And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, in that I caused
  them to go into captivity among the nations, and have gathered them unto their own
  land; and I will leave none of them any more there; neither will I hide My face any
  more from them; for I have poured out My spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the
  Lord GOD.'
  
  Nehemiah 1:8-9
  If ye deal treacherously, I will scatter you abroad among the peoples;
  but if ye return unto Me, and keep My commandments and do them,
  though your dispersed were in the uttermost part of the heaven, yet will I
  gather them from thence, and will bring them unto the place that I have
  chosen to cause My name to dwell there.

And thus the Commandment Keepers returnees of the West African Diaspora Jewry.


This is the rubric R' Arnold Josiah Ford (zs"l) worked under
and passed to R' Wentworth Arthur Matthew (zs"l) who founded
and expanded the scattered W Afr Americas House of Israel into
a Sepher Torah and siddur&mahhzor using, Shabbath & Yom Tob
observant, kashruth keeping Jewish community in Harlem
slightly over 100 years ago. Chicago is another story
and it was a member of the Bene Israel of India who
was among the congregational founders there at the
same time as New York. The chosen identifier was
Ethiopian Hebrew which the joint community has since
abandoned for Israelite without any further qualifier.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@tukuler

I resized the images, thank you for the image hosting site. I am very interested in finding that source you mentioned about the jewish men being infertile and that black men were having intermarriages with their women -- or a source that says anything similar to that. Do you know of any ebooks available?

I am currently dealing with eurocentric people who, like you have said, are trying to push the narrative that only white european men intermarried with black women, and that it did not happen the other way around.

Thank you in advance
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
IIrc it was both Iberian Israelite youth and the maidens
both who were infertile. Both married locals if children
was the desired outcome.


I'm a Sr and Ebooks ain't usually my schtick unless digitized
reprint of old hard copy books. Shooo, I like the fact that a
1000+ volume library room can be carried around on a keychain.
Let the movers claim they lost that.

=-=-=

Only the blind don't see the push for yte men to marry
blk women to make sons and carry on the family name.
That image is inescapably all over the visual media
No. It's not pushing integration. It pushes blk absorbed
into the yte gene pool where it will disappear over a few
generations. The ads, the games, the movies and shows, hmm?
Now what's that ratio of negro blks as yte wimmenz lifemates
compared to the bombardment of cauc ytes mated to cullud gals?

100/0 is what I see. Not that I care.
I've made the world a darker place to live.
The al~Takruri Bastards are hardly a joke.

=-=-=

Glad you realize there's no such thing as objectivity
and that Europeans have willfully shaped a great part of
the world they explored and colonized. Yeah, they just
trapsaid in on trade routes but used arms to just take
what they couldn't for or to take over the ports of
people who did them no wrong because they never so
much as ever known of them outside stories.They'd
like to colonize time and try and do so through their
classrooms and education systems K - PhD. Everything
is seen examined and weighed according to Europe's
imaginations of the world. 99 out of 100 have no
idea of the development of civilization outside
the pre-historic 'Middle-East' to NW Europe flow
of humankind and civilization learned in school
from the tenderest ages.

To retain hegemony they will not let the same old
mentality since die out. It's just refashioned to
fit in more with the times. But look at the passtime
popular media and games images of Africa(ns) where
such effect world or European history and what do
you see? The ytes still interjecting themselves in
places and times they never knew. Egyptians Nubians
hell there are even blks chasing around the bs that
Yoruba genetics tie in to some Brit norm when history
is plain that at the time Yoruba and other Nigerian
ethnies began there was no Brit norm because many
who make those genomes weren't even in the islands
before the Common Era.

Gulf of Guinea was known as a "white man's grave".
They even made up little rhyming ditties about it
“Beware and take heed of the Bight of Benin. Where few come out but many go in”
Making Yoruba into genomic NW Europeans allows time
travel through Nigerian civilization's accomplishment.
It means that though no actual real live NW Euros were
ever there via genetics they can claim there'd be no
Guinea Neolithic industry, Nok, Ife, Wall of Eridu, etc.
without NW European genes, a subtle dialectic rehash of
the old Black Africa needed help to attain to civilization
patter. Runnin th same game only by another name. Genetics
including genomics is anthropology and we all know what
anthropology was invented to do.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Yeah it's crazy how much as been obfuscated or hidden completely. When I first started finding out about this kind of stuff I was in shock and ever since I've always had an interest in finding new information.

I was recently forwarded this DNA study on sephardic lineages from sao thome (st. Thomas), the island off the coast of west africa were Jews were banished to during the inquisition.

It's a short read.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282433155_Exploring_Sephardic_lineages_in_Sao_Tome_e_Principe

I hardly know a thing about DNA but what does this mean to you? From what I can understand, all of the haplogroups listed are commonly found in people who are "black", for lack of a better term...
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Why'd'ya need a better term?

OK gimme a few to check the source and
compare its raw data to ES' references.
Heads up tho, if no forensic STaR data,
deciding if the samples are black as in
the blacks of Africa in particular will
be nigh impossible. Others can correct
me on that. Oh, oh yeah. Full genome
ADMIXTURE can narrow samples down
to local geographic breeding populations
too.


If skin color black is meant there're
combinations of genes indicating that
probability also.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@Tukuler

Shalom, what are your thoughts on this source that says the [sephardic] Jews of Portugal were black?



"The Calcutta Review, Volume 5" published by University of Calcutta, page 289 (1846)

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Calcutta_Review.html?id=FlcnAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_entity
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
OK, you asked for my personal view so here 'tis.

You me and everybody else knows what a black person
is in 21st century worldwide influencing American
discourse. But the USA ain't the world and its
idea of a black --based on racial hierarchy per face,
hair, 'intelligence', and behavior designed by the white
Euros' 'science' of anthropology with absolutely no input
from any other people on the planet (mere specimens for
their data collections) to bolster colonialism and white
superiority-- don't hold elsewhere in time either.


More coming but for now something to ponder.

A rabbi named Farkhi addressed the Commandment
Keepers synagogue one Shabbath in the 1980's.
In his address to the congregation he said
Sephardim are the blacks of Europe.

Maybe Ashkenazim invented the one drop
hypodescent operating theory that just one
African ancestor makes a European black?
And they blithely express derogation of
their own sons, daughters, grand and great
grand children with terms like discolour,
taint, touch of the (tar) brush -- Sade's
granny called Sade tar baby tar the
color of manilla?


In my world, black does not mean forensic "science" negro
nor is it relegated to Inner Africans only. Neither are those
peoples I label black necessarily closely biologically related
since the beginning of the Holocene.

In general all landmasses with Indian Ocean shorelines
are home to peoples whose skin colours range from like
licorice black to honey brown (including butterscotch,
beige, and cream individuals' lighter colour variances when
both parents share the same geographic local or ethnic stock).
I.E. Congolese recording artist Yondo Sister is
'mally yally' yet born of indigenous Inner African
parentage, ifaik.

I don't consider USA sociology "black people" who
are obviously majority biological non-black the
same as blacks as I defined above. I do heartily
respect those folk who choose black as their ID
and not out of shrewdness to obtain USA gov 'boosts'
originally made for the USA Freedmen and descendants
now subalterned for any came-to-USA-yesterday 'black'
people who keep themselves far and away from American
Freedmen as they can, chastise them for the yte media,
and at the same time displace them in government, jobs
in the public sector, and even in movies and series
specifically about USA slavery and its aftermath.


Taz, if you read this before I get back
can you fill me in on your definition
of black person/peoples as regards this
topic you have in mind. That way I can
answer with less of my own biases.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Yeah it's crazy how much as been obfuscated or hidden completely. When I first started finding out about this kind of stuff I was in shock and ever since I've always had an interest in finding new information.

I was recently forwarded this DNA study on sephardic lineages from sao thome (st. Thomas), the island off the coast of west africa were Jews were banished to during the inquisition.

It's a short read.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282433155_Exploring_Sephardic_lineages_in_Sao_Tome_e_Principe

I hardly know a thing about DNA but what does this mean to you? From what I can understand, all of the haplogroups listed are commonly found in people who are "black", for lack of a better term...

---

They were looking at 22 unrelated individuals in Sao Tome who had surnames of those included in the historical reports as Jewish migrants and showing cultural practices putatively related to the Jewish religion.

Sao Tome calls attention because of the story of 2000 Jewish children and teenagers taken from their families, forcedly baptized and sent there but there is not a lot of documentation about it, their settlement

One of the male ancestral line of Jews, haplogroup J is the most often cited associating them to the Middle East (also carried by Arabs) but they didn't find that group in these individuals and they couldn't find any DNA that was setting them apart from the general population who is now about 220,000.
It may have been more apparent when the island became inhabited after 1471 but much larger numbers of Africans were brought there later

However other genetics articles find that another island off the coast but 2,000+ miles north, Cape Verde, 400+ miles from the coast of Senegal
I have seen one where they record 7.6% of subjects bearing haplogroup J

"According to the admixture analysis, the majority of male contributions to Cape Verde were derived from the Iberian Peninsula (0.68). The second most important contribution (0.27) came from West Africa, while contributions from Northern Africa and Sephardic Jews seem to have been residual (∼0.03 each, with wide confidence intervals).'

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0051103#pone-0051103-g005

but also another article talking about both Sao Tome and Cape Verde and they found about 20%, of Cape Verdians bearing haplogroup J but didn't find it in Sao Tome
(source
Y-chromosome lineages in São Tomé e Príncipe and Cabo Verde islands: Different input of European influence, Rita Gonçalves 2007)

But haplogroup J is not the whole story

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews

wikipedia

Approximately 35% to 43% of Jewish men are in the paternal line known as haplogroup J[a] and its sub-haplogroups. This haplogroup is particularly present in the Middle East and Southern Europe.[33] 15% to 30% are in haplogroup E1b1b, (or E-M35) and its sub-haplogroups which is common in the Middle East, North Africa, and Southern Europe.

In Ashkenazi (and Sephardi) Jews, the most common paternal lineages generally are E1b1b, J2, and J1, with others found at lesser rates.

Y-DNA of Portuguese Jews
A study by Inês Nogueiro et al. (July 2009) on the Jews of north-eastern Portugal (region of Trás-os-Montes) showed that their paternal lines consisted of 35.2% lineages more typical of Europe (R : 31.7%, I : 3.5%), and 64.8% lineages more typical of the Near East than Europe (E1b1b: 8.7%, G: 3.5%, J: 36.8%, T: 15.8%) and consequently, the Portuguese Jews of this region were genetically closer to other Jewish populations than to Portuguese non-Jews
____________________________________________

the female side:

Pattern of mtDNA variation in three populations from São Tomé e Príncipe

M J Trovoada 1, L Pereira, L Gusmão, A Abade, A Amorim, M J Prata

The repertory of mtDNA lineages in São Tomé e Príncipe denoted a fully African maternal pool, primarily arisen from a Central/Southwestern substratum. The absence of any lineages of putative European descent means that the European impact at the mitochondrial pool was virtually nil.

_________________________________________

https://www.wmf.org/project/cape-verde-jewish-heritage-research-project

Cape Verde Jewish Heritage Research Project

The Republic of Cape Verde is an archipelago of ten islands in the Atlantic Ocean about 300 miles off the coast of Senegal. Cape Verdeans are predominantly Catholic because of over 500 years of Portuguese colonial rule. After Portugal abolished the Inquisition in 1821, and after Portugal and Great Britain signed a trade and navigation treaty in 1842, some Sephardic Jews from Morocco chose to immigrate to Cape Verde to escape deteriorating economic conditions and pursue opportunities.
_______________________



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2QhuKEeVv4_

Discussion of Cape Verde history, many mentions of Jews
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
COPIED IN CASE OF AUTHOR DELETES IT LATER

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Yeah it's crazy how much as been obfuscated or hidden completely. When I first started finding out about this kind of stuff I was in shock and ever since I've always had an interest in finding new information.

I was recently forwarded this DNA study on sephardic lineages from sao thome (st. Thomas), the island off the coast of west africa were Jews were banished to during the inquisition.

It's a short read.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282433155_Exploring_Sephardic_lineages_in_Sao_Tome_e_Principe

I hardly know a thing about DNA but what does this mean to you? From what I can understand, all of the haplogroups listed are commonly found in people who are "black", for lack of a better term...

---

They were looking at 22 unrelated individuals in Sao Tome who had surnames of those included in the historical reports as Jewish migrants and showing cultural practices putatively related to the Jewish religion.

Sao Tome calls attention because of the story of 2000 Jewish children and teenagers taken from their families, forcedly baptized and sent there but there is not a lot of documentation about it, their settlement

One of the male ancestral line of Jews, haplogroup J is the most often cited associating them to the Middle East but they didn't find that group in these individuals and they couldn't find any DNA that was setting them apart from the general population who is now about 220,000.
It may have been more apparent when the island became inhabited after 1471 but much larger numbers of Africans were brought there later

However other genetics articles find that another island off the coast but 2,000+ miles north, Cape Verde
I have seen one where they record 7.6% of subjects bearing haplogroup J

"According to the admixture analysis, the majority of male contributions to Cape Verde were derived from the Iberian Peninsula (0.68). The second most important contribution (0.27) came from West Africa, while contributions from Northern Africa and Sephardic Jews seem to have been residual (∼0.03 each, with wide confidence intervals).'

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0051103#pone-0051103-g005

but also another article talking about both Sao Tome and Cape Verde and they found about 20%, of Cape Verdians bearing haplogroup J but didn't find it in Sao Tome

But haplogroup J is not the whole story

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews

wikipedia

Approximately 35% to 43% of Jewish men are in the paternal line known as haplogroup J[a] and its sub-haplogroups. This haplogroup is particularly present in the Middle East and Southern Europe.[33] 15% to 30% are in haplogroup E1b1b, (or E-M35) and its sub-haplogroups which is common in the Middle East, North Africa, and Southern Europe.

In Ashkenazi (and Sephardi) Jews, the most common paternal lineages generally are E1b1b, J2, and J1, with others found at lesser rates.

Y-DNA of Portuguese Jews
A study by Inês Nogueiro et al. (July 2009) on the Jews of north-eastern Portugal (region of Trás-os-Montes) showed that their paternal lines consisted of 35.2% lineages more typical of Europe (R : 31.7%, I : 3.5%), and 64.8% lineages more typical of the Near East than Europe (E1b1b: 8.7%, G: 3.5%, J: 36.8%, T: 15.8%) and consequently, the Portuguese Jews of this region were genetically closer to other Jewish populations than to Portuguese non-Jews
____________________________________________

the female side:

Pattern of mtDNA variation in three populations from São Tomé e Príncipe

M J Trovoada 1, L Pereira, L Gusmão, A Abade, A Amorim, M J Prata

The repertory of mtDNA lineages in São Tomé e Príncipe denoted a fully African maternal pool, primarily arisen from a Central/Southwestern substratum. The absence of any lineages of putative European descent means that the European impact at the mitochondrial pool was virtually nil.

_________________________________________

https://www.wmf.org/project/cape-verde-jewish-heritage-research-project

Cape Verde Jewish Heritage Research Project

The Republic of Cape Verde is an archipelago of ten islands in the Atlantic Ocean about 300 miles off the coast of Senegal. Cape Verdeans are predominantly Catholic because of over 500 years of Portuguese colonial rule. After Portugal abolished the Inquisition in 1821, and after Portugal and Great Britain signed a trade and navigation treaty in 1842, some Sephardic Jews from Morocco chose to immigrate to Cape Verde to escape deteriorating economic conditions and pursue opportunities.
_______________________



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2QhuKEeVv4_

Discussion of Cape Verde history, many mentions of Jews

---

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@tukuler

Thank you for response. Well in short, I believe it's talking about a black skin complexion in regards to the portuguese Jews being spoken of. I believe the context proves this because in the preceeding sentence the source makes reference to certain arabs in africa being "black as negroes" and then in the very next sentence it says the portuguese Jews were very black.

It also compares the complexion of the [black] portuguese Jews to the Jews of Cochin, who are undoubtedly "black", and some sources even refer to the Jews of cochin as "negro Jews".

The fact that the source in question does not refer to the portuguese Jews as "negroes", although they are described as black, does not really mean anything in my opinion because "negro" is a byword that was placed upon so-called black people by oppressors.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

So what are you basically trying to say?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

So what are you basically trying to say?

---

I'm saying look at Cape Verde if you are going to look at Sao Tome (but more importantly look at Morocco, the Jewish population there far predates refugees of the Spanish expulsion

San Tome attracts interest due to the interesting story of the 2,000 Jewish Children who supposedly were sent there but if you look at islands along the West Coast of Africa there is more distinction in the DNA there, DNA thought to be Jewish in Cape Verde rather than San Tome
-in a segment of the population there

and Cape Verde has a similar history of Jews winding up there due to expulsion as well as being much closer to Iberia than San Tome.
If you are going to bring up San Tome, when I was looking into this there was one article which looked at the DNA of both San Tomeans and Cape Verdians and they were seeing the link within part of the Cape Verdian population but not Sao Tomeans
although back in the 15th century the demographics were different in each place due to the amount of Africans the Europeans brought to each place later and European trade/planation operations.
They found a genetic similarity between some Cape Verdeans and Sephardic Jews in Portugal. This is the contemporary situation


The late 1400’s was the beginning of the Inquisition and expulsion of Jews in Spain. Sephadic Jews then migrated to Portugal which still welcomed them. By 1492, the Inquisitions found its way to Portugal. These Sephardic Jews found their ways to other areas which included Gibraltar, Morocco and Cape Verde but not before many were forced to convert to Christianity.

However with Cape Verde there was more than one period of incoming Jews so it is a complex picture:

quote:

---

“By the mid-1800’s, Moroccan Jews openly emigrated to Cape Verde, often via Gibraltar, to find economic opportunities. Jews had lived for the most part peacefully in Morocco for more than 2,000 years, but deteriorating economic conditions in the mid-1800’s prompted some to depart for Cape Verde, which was an important transatlantic commercial hub at that time.”

The best documented source for any “North African” DNA might come from the second wave of Jewish migration to Cape Verde. This time directly from North Africa and taking place in the 1800’s. This might also be independently verified by dilligent genealogical research or family stories as it doesn’t date back too far ago. See also this excellent website: http://capeverdejewishheritage.org/. The first wave of so called Converso Jews or New Christians migrating to Cape Verde, took place mostly in the 1500’s. This event is also likely to have had genetic influence. But given that they were Sephardi Jews who had settled for centuries already in Iberia, it’s uncertain whether their inherited DNA markers would be read as “North African”. While for the second wave some minor degree of intermarriage with North Africans might be assumed (judging also from 23andme results of Moroccan Sephardi). The genetic legacy of the first wave might however (partially) account for the higher than expected “Italy/Greece” results on AncestryDNA, seen especially for people from Fogo and Brava sofar. Again the country name labeling not to be taken literally but rather to be seen as some eastern shifted Mediterranean

https://tracingafricanroots.wordpress.com/ancestrydna/cape-verdean-results/

Cape Verdean Results

Tracing African Roots

---

The Cape Verde Islands were uninhabited. They were discovered by Genoese and Portuguese navigators around 1456.
In 1462, Portuguese settlers arrived at Santiago and founded a settlement.
Distance to Portugal about 2,000 miles

Sao Tome was uninhabited before the arrival of the Portuguese sometime around 1470.
The first successful settlement of São Tomé was established in 1493.
Distance to Portugal 4,600 air miles, much longer if by ship

However Jews in Morocco far predate all this, so why even emphasize Portugal?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moroccan_Jews

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Morocco

Moroccan Jews constitute an ancient community, immigrating to the region as early as 70 CE. Emily Gottreich contends that Jewish migration to Morocco predated the full formation of Judaism, as the Talmud was "written and redacted between 200 and 500 CE."[15] In accordance with the norms of the Islamic legal system, Jewish Moroccans had separate legal courts pertaining to "personal law" under which communities (Muslim sharia, Christian Canon law and Jewish halakha law-abiding) were allowed to rule themselves under their own system.

Under the Romans

A copper oil lamp of the Roman period in the shape of a menorah, found at the ruins of Volubilis.
The first irrefutable evidence of Jews in what is now Morocco, in the form of gravestone epitaphs in Hebrew at Volubilis and the ruins of a third century synagogue, dates back to late antiquity.[4] Emily Gottreich contends that Jewish migration to Morocco predates the full formation of Judaism, as the Talmud was "written and redacted between 200 and 500 CE."[5]

The Hebrew or Aramaic languages used by Jews were closely related to the Punic language of the Carthaginians; many Jews also settled amongst Berbers and adopted their languages.[citation needed] Later, under the dominion of the Romans and (after 429) the Vandals, Mauretanian Jews reportedly increased in number and prospered.[citation needed]

As Christianity was adopted by the Roman state, the church Councils of Carthage adopted policies that discriminated against adherents to Judaism. The Justinian edict of persecution for North Africa, issued after Vandal rule had been overthrown and Mauretania had come under the dominion of the Byzantines (534), was directed against the Jews as well as the Arians, the Donatists, and other dissenters.[6]

In the 7th century, the Jewish population of Mauretania received as a further accession from Iberian Peninsula those who wished to escape Visigothic legislation. At the end of the same century, at the time of the great Arab conquests in northwestern Africa, there were in Mauretania, according to the Arab historians, many Jews.

Arab conquest and the Idrisids (703–1146)

Since the city of Fez was founded in 808 CE, it attracted a diverse kind of population from all around the area, among those new newcomers came the Jews who contributed their commercial capabilities to the new developed economy. They settled in the medina of Fez, and formed a stable community, which was an integral part of the city life.[7] The golden age of the Jewish community in Fez lasted for almost three hundred years, from the 9th to 11th centuries. Its yeshivot (religious schools) attracted brilliant scholars, poets and grammarians. This period was marred by a pogrom in 1033, which is described by the Jewish Virtual Library as an isolated event primarily due to political conflict between the Maghrawa and Ifrenid tribes.[
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

You are using the rhetoric of mainstream history. Sources I've shared here in this thread (in my most recent posts, for example) state that the portuguese Jews were so-called black people -- not the caucasian jewish people who are now known as sephardic jews. That's my entire point

Even a source that tukuler shared earlier in this thread states that the white jewish men who came from portugal weren't thought to be actual semites.

Here it is again, circled in red:


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

portuguese Jews were so-called black people -- not the caucasian jewish people who are now known as sephardic jews. That's my entire point

---

Do these Portuguese "so called black people"
look the same as the people in America today referred to as "black people" ?

why are you saying "so called" ?
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

When one does the research and puts all of the information from the sources together, the answer is yes -- the black portuguese Jews and their black descendants looked the same as the black people in america today. I would even argue that a lot of them are the same people but don't even know it because of the slave trade and slavery.

For example: one of the most recent sources I shared with Tukuler says the Jews of portugal were black (I've also shared many others that say this as well) and according to the following source, the [black] portuguese Jews were banished to several locations in west africa -- Loango being one of them. The source says that the Jews in Loango (west africa) are descendants of these [black] Jews who were banished.



"The Critical Review, Or, Annals of Literature, Volume 57" by Tobias George Smollett, page 141 (1783) W. Simpkin and R. Marshall

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Critical_Review_Or_Annals_of_Literat.html?id=d2IvAQAAMAAJ

This next source says that the black Jews in Loango, who were the descendants of the [black] Jews who were banished from Portugal, looked exactly like all of the other negroes in west africa in every way.



"A Tribute for the Negro" by Wilson Armistead, page 65-66 (1848) W. Irwin; American agent, W. Harned, New York

https://books.google.com/books/about/A_Tribute_for_the_Negro.html?id=YCGLzSxVSsIC

***** P.S. I say "so-called black people" because black is not an actual legitimate ethnicity, nationality, etc. It's a color used by our oppressors to describe a race of people whose ancestors certainly did not refer to themselves as "black" people prior to being conquered.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

Can you explain how any of what you are posting disputes the fact that the portuguese Jews were described as being black people who had black descendants that resembled negroes in every physical aspect?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

You are using the rhetoric of mainstream history. Sources I've shared here in this thread (in my most recent posts, for example) state that the portuguese Jews were so-called black people -- not the caucasian jewish people who are now known as sephardic jews. That's my entire point

Even a source that tukuler shared earlier in this thread states that the white jewish men who came from portugal weren't thought to be actual semites.

Here it is again, circled in red:

---

So your claim is that Portuguese Jews were black people
but you say it was not these black Jews who were expelled to San Tome from Portugal in the 15th century
Instead the men expelled from Portugal and sent to San Tome were fake white Jews

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

the white jewish men who came from portugal weren't thought to be actual semites.

---

The 1930 book quote by Godbey above he says that a someone named Reade visited Sao Tome 70 years ago (about 1860)
and observed that the people of Sao Tome had no Semitic physical characteristics
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

According to the 1930's source (Godbey), the caucasian jewish men who went to west africa were not considered to be actual semites.

You are conflating the two different groups of Jews. The black Jews who were actually Jews and ended up being slaves, versus the caucasian jew-ish men who went there and had black slaves of their own.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

According to the 1930's source (Godbey), the caucasian jewish men who went to west africa were not considered to be actual semites.

You are conflating the two different groups of Jews. The black Jews who were actually Jews and ended up being slaves, versus the caucasian jew-ish men who went there and had black slaves of their own.

---

Was Judaism practiced in West Africa prior to 15th century Portuguese settlements?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


(apologies on use of "savage" here, the book referenced)
________________________________________________

Encyclopedia Britannica

https://www.britannica.com/place/Sao-Tome-and-Principe#ref467738


São Tomé and Príncipe



Ethnic groups
The population consists mainly of Forros (from forro, Portuguese for “free man”), descendants of immigrant Europeans and enslaved Africans.

Another group, the Angolares, descended from formerly enslaved Angolans who were shipwrecked on São Tomé about 1540. The Angolares remained apart in the isolated southern zone of São Tomé island until the late 19th century, but they later spread throughout the country and became largely assimilated.

Cabo Verdeans form the largest group of resident foreigners; many have adopted Sao Tomean nationality.

Angolans and Mozambicans make up most of the rest of the African immigrant community.
Like the Cabo Verdeans, they are relatively well integrated with the other islanders, because of a shared Luso-African cultural background. There is a small European population—primarily Portuguese—in the country.

Languages
Standard Portuguese is the official language and is understood by virtually all islanders. In addition, three Portuguese-based creoles are spoken: Sãotomense, spoken by the Forros and having by far the largest number of speakers; Angolar, the language of the Angolares, spoken on the southern tip of São Tomé; and Principense, spoken by only a few hundred individuals on Príncipe.



Religion
More than half of the population belongs to the Roman Catholic Church. The remainder of those professing a religious affiliation is primarily Protestant. Traditional African religious practices and beliefs are widespread, even among adherents of other faiths. About one-fifth of the population identifies as nonreligious.
__________________________________

Britannica use the above pie chart for ethnicity,
large majority 79.5% "Black white admixture"
However from what I have seen in genetics studies
(and there aren't that many studies) that 79.5%
seems to be of people largely African.
African Americans are said to be around 20% European on average
however are not usually referred to as "mixed",
Similarly probably, Sao Tomeans if not more African

Notice that Judaism is not even showing up in the chart, the tradition was not passed down (although there could be some rare exceptions)
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
.


https://www.britannica.com/place/Cabo-Verde

Cape Verde


.


Although many Cabo Verdeans can trace Jewish ancestry, virtually none are practicing.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

Yes; the very first source I referenced in the first comment of this thread says "ancient africans" in west africa were Jews prior to christianity and islam.

Secondly, what point are you trying to make by referencing savage africa and posting all of those graphs? According to the 1930s source I referenced, the caucasian jewish people were not viewed as actual semites.

"Savage africa" (the primary source) does not contradict this information. That's the book that Godbey (1930s source) referenced.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
You are both reading what you'd like into
Godbey instead of presenting him as he is.

Godbey doesn't think there's such a thing as
a Semitic physical type so he puts that word
in quotes when explicitly writing on Reade's
observations, i.e., "what he <<meaning Reade>>
considers 'Semitic'."

Don't believe me? S'alright.
Godbey's index entry on page 796

code:

---

"Semitic face" imaginary, 5, 10, 148,
  552;  "Semitic race"  non-existent,
  155;   no  Semitic   aborigines  in
  Asia  Minor, 589  

---

It's a perilous and error strewn methodology
to 'flash-quote' authors when unfamiliar with
the entirety of their selected work, or to put
words in their mouth they never said.

That's the problem with NOI's excellent multi
volume book on Black and Jewish American
relations. One needs already be familiar with
NOI's quotes to know when the glue holding
them together is out of the author's league.

Same for my honored mentor Moreh Rudolph Winsor.
He read haphtaroth impeccably at Philly's Qahal
Qadosh Mikveh Israel --the congregation of Haym
Solomon who paid for Washington's army. Would
there be a USA w/o him?-- However Winsor cannot
be used in an accredited classroom. Too outdated
and highly polemic. Very useful nonetheless (at
least for us of that generation. The Prof's up
in age now. When last I saw him, took a while
to process his ageing.


Anyway,
Yall gon n carry on the polemics.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@Tukuler

That's an interesting opinion on the Godbey source but even if we look at the primary source that he refetenced (savage africa, Reade) we see that Reade is literally saying that he did not observe a "jewish type" in the island population.

Reade did not use the term "semitic", Godbey did. And he used it to paraphrase and give a better idea of what Reade actually meant.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:


Secondly, what point are you trying to make by referencing savage africa and posting all of those graphs? According to the 1930s source I referenced, the caucasian jewish people were not viewed as actual semites.

"Savage africa" (the primary source) does not contradict this information. That's the book that Godbey (1930s source) referenced.

---

No that is not what Godbey said.
Both authors say that back in the 15th century the Portuguese were promoting "race mixing" between Jews and "negroes"
but when William Winwood Reade traveled to Sao Tome in 1862 as noted by Godbey, Reade thought the people there did not look Semitic, not even partially.

"great numbers (of Jewish men) were sent out and married with brought over from Angola. From this union arose a mixed race, which the Portuguese firmly perpetuated.
I could detect no relic of the Jewish type: which is decidedly providential; for a union of the Jew and the Negro would be, commercially speaking, dangerous to Christianity"

He says when he visited Sao Tome and the people didn't look at all Semitic to him. This is what he's saying what
you thought he was saying: "Jewish men who came from portugal weren't thought to be actual semites."

And it's 370 years later when he makes this remark, after a large influx of slaves in subsequent years after the early settlement
and one can't expect the same ethnic proportions.

Godbey also says on page 248 (which I posted)
"Jewish custom will make Jews of some of the slave population...
p 247
"we have succinctly before us the fact that Judaism was steadily spreading by proselytizing any African slaves that it could. The Spanish and Portuguese Christian clergy felt themselves handicapped in competition"

These slave converts to Judaism came to greatly outnumber the Jews because they were brought in from the outside to work on plantations, Godbey refers to an old census. They are were the 'black Jews of Portugal'.
The Portuguese also colonized East Timor on South East Asia in 1702. I read one old account of some indigenous people there subsequently regarding themselves as Portuguese.

But in Sao Tome over time there is less and less remnant of the earlier Jews who were expelled from Spain such that when Reade visits 370 years later
the people there don't look at all "Semitic" to him. Some Portuguese Jews in San Tome and Cape Verde were also to return later to Portugal.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Is the section circled in red saying that the [white] jewish men who married and had children with the black/african women weren't really semitic?

---

These authors do not refer to the Angola females as Jewish
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
History of Jews in Angola

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Angola
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

You are wrong. Reade says he did not observe a "jewish" type in the population, then Godbey goes even further and suggests that this was because the caucasian jewish men who went to africa and married the black women were not actual semites.

In order for your false narrative to make sense you would have to ignore all of the evidence and sources I have already provided that say the portuguese Jews were black people and ended up as slaves after being banished from portugal.

This would obviously mean the caucasian jewish men from portugal were not the actual Jews being spoken of in those sources.

Also, at the bottom of the same page of the Godbey source, Godbey goes onto say that while no semitic characteristics were observable in the population of the descendants of the caucasian jewish men, there was another population of negroes on the mainland that WAS thought to be semitic.

This clarifies and affirms my position and proves that you are incorrectly interpreting the information in the source.

"The Portuguese are affirmed to have carefully perpetuated this mixed race. But Reade, visiting the island of San Thomé seventy years ago, observed no trace of 'Semitic' physical characteristics among the island population. He did not consider the fact that the Jews who married the blacks might not have been what he called 'Semites.' Nor did he visit the mainland. Bastian studied these negroes, known as 'Judeos' by the Portuguese, and thought he found some trace of the so-called Semitic blood."

"The Lost Tribes a Myth" by Allen Howard Godbey, page 246 (1930) Duke University Press

https://archive.org/details/the-lost-tribes-a-myth-suggestions-towards-rewriting-hebrew-history
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:


"He did not consider the fact that the Jews who married the blacks might not have been what he called 'Semites.'

---

He does not refer to the blacks as Semites either, that is a key point

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

"Nor did he visit the mainland."

---

The mainland is Gabon and Cameroon.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

"Bastian studied these negroes, known as 'Judeos' by the Portuguese, and thought he found some trace of the so-called Semitic blood.

---

So on what basis could Adolf Bastian in 1862 determine a "trace of so-called Semitic blood" ?
or are we to believe something in a book must be true because it's in a book?
Apparently he describes in the book features which he believes to be Semitic in Loango kingdom people
of the mainland a little to the South of what is adjacent to Sao Tome

continuing to the next page:

quote:

---

"They are grave and reserved as compared to other Negroes and wealthy having most of the trade in their hands.
But the perplexity of the ethnologists is due to their omission of one outstanding feature of ancient Oriental religious society to which Judaism clung till modern times. That is that any slave might gain his freedom by accepting the religion of his owner"

---

So the mention here is again to slaves and continues on page 247 which I posted earlier, the 3 pages 146-148 were there is further talk of slaves who were converts

So Reade had said he did not see Semitic features
on Sao Tome
and Adolf Bastion say he saw Semitic features in his expedition to Loango, what is now the western part of the Republic of the Congo, Southern Gabon and Cabinda
Everything is very speculative with these authors, not proven facts. Some speculation I have read on this is that such claims of Jews in Loango were also due to Portuguese influence originating in Sao Tome

Also when Reade said that he didn't see Semitic features in Sao Tome 370 years after the expulsion
if you look at what he wrote he does not say he saw European features either.
More likely he just saw what you see now in Sao Tome, a lot of people with typical West African features.
However had he visited Sao Tome in the 15th century he may have seen more "Semitic" features around, highly speculative, all of this
_______________________________________________
during the 1873 German expedition to the Loango coast, Adolf Bastian (1826 – 1905), thepolymath best known for his contributions to the development of ethnography, and a member of the expedition, seems to have considered that there was indeed some connection between the ancient rumours of aJewish population on the Loango coast and Oldendorp’s community. Henoted that in the “land of the Bramas” on the Loango coast was to befound the place referred to by earlier geographers as the “Golfo deJudeos.” This is where, as he put it “the villages of the Mavumbu or so-called Judeos” were still to be found in his day.
19
So had a Jewishcommunity persisted for some three hundred years without any descriptionof it reaching the Jewish world and without any known communication between the community and Jews elsewhere? After Bastian’s visit to the Loango coast- although the community was frequently mentioned by nineteenth and early twentieth century scholars-no-one else, to my knowledge, went to visit the community and its later fate is unrecorded. Further north in Senegal and elsewhere the ancient Jewish communities seem to have disappeared almost without a trace. Is it fanciful to imagine that the Bani Israil community of eastern Senegal, now practicing Muslims, referred to in an article by Cnaan Liphshiz reported in the Jewish Telegraphic Agency on May 23, 2013 refers to the descendants of thesepeople?What traces are left of the black Jews of Loango? Today there are Judaising movements in neighboring Gabon. If there are any connections between these movements and the black Jews of Loango is currently unknown and is a question that requires further research.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

I've noticed that you ignore key points that debunk your narrative and prove that you are misinterpreting the information -- and when you get backed into a corner you say foolish things like "are we supposed to believe something in a book must be true because it's in a book"?

I can use that same childish logic and apply that same faulty reasoning to any point you try to make. So, if you don't believe the information in these books then stop trying to reference these same books to support your flawed arguments when convenient for you.

It's clear that you have have no idea what you are talking about and are intentionally deflecting to avoid directly dealing with the facts that prove you wrong.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


Look at what Godbey says here in the blue, second to last sentence

"It may be considered certain that many partially Judaized negroes were among the slave brought to America"

This is what he claims to be certain
"partially Judanized negroes"

So all discussion that follows is after that premise, that negroes were Judanzied

Does he say that they were Judanized by other negroes who were Jews from Portugal ?

No

but that is what you are saying

So if you want to try to find evidence of that it would not be on these pages about Sao Tome
You would have to look at documents pertaining to
the country of Portugal, about Jews there

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

I've noticed that you ignore key points that debunk your narrative and prove that you are misinterpreting the information -- and when you get backed into a corner you say foolish things like "are we supposed to believe something in a book must be true because it's in a book"?

I can use that same childish logic and apply that same faulty reasoning to any point you try to make. So, if you don't believe the information in these books then stop trying to reference these same books to support your flawed arguments when convenient for you.

It's clear that you have have no idea what you are talking about and are intentionally deflecting to avoid directly dealing with the facts that prove you wrong.

---

You don't understand what facts are and what is theory and speculation
Nobody ever taught you there is a difference
I ignore theories being presented as facts

Instead if a white historian in an old book theorizes something, that he's found a lost tribe of Jews in some far away place you present it as fact because it's what you wanted to hear

and you also chop up pages as you did with Tribute to the Negro to conceal the more blatant foolishness in the same page, you chop out or ignore other things said in the same material

It is you who are backed into a corner when it is pointed out that Godbey himself doesn't not take a firm position in people in Sao Tome using phrases like "might not".
It is you who are backed into a corner when it is pointed out that when Adolf Bastian speaks of "negroes, known as 'Judeos' by the Portuguese," with "some trace of the so-called Semitic blood"
there is no explanation as to what is meant by "trace"
and why would he not call them Jews and instead people who have "some trace of the so-called Semitic blood"
And there is also that term again "so-called" with it's element of doubting itself.
"So-called evidence" ? what evidence was it?

You don't question the author, going to the source source to see exactly what they said and to see if they are making a reasonable claim as to there being this 'trace'.
You just heard what you like and accept it because you like it and that is foolish.

Your racist agenda is that white Jews are fake Jews and real Jews are black and to fulfil this racist agenda you go to old books trying to verify it. (confirmation bias)

The concept to of inheriting Jewish descent by being the child of a Jewish woman to me is a stupid tradition anyway
Similarly going by the father is also stupid to me.

To me a religion should have to do with following an ethical code and having spiritual beliefs
and have nothing to do with biology, blood, traces etc. That is stupid

If someone is going to argue that 14th-15th century Jews in Spain and Portugal looked like West Africans then that theory should be tested by looking at Spain and Portuguese documents and art
in Spain and Portugal

not go looking in colonies in Africa where, if they were black they would blend in completely with millions of West Africans who were not Jewish.

And even to look at Portuguese colonies in Africa
as per Jews is to suggest that the Portuguese brought Judaism to West Africa.
You even bungle your own agenda.
If one was to try to establish the presence of a lost tribe of Jews winding up in West Africa to place emphasis on the Portuguese undermines that discussion and keeping in mind also the Portuguese language is not what the Israelites spoke

It would make more sense to speak of Jews in Morocco who far predate the colonies of Portugal in Africa

But if you love that old medieval European culture
and that is what you want to be a part of and you want to talk about the Jews of Portugal being black then go into the history of Portugal and Spain and look for black Jews
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

You are still rambling and deflecting.

1. I've provided sources saying that the portuguese Jews were black people.

2. According to Godbey, the caucasian jewish men were not considered semites.

3. Firsthand accounts written by arabs in 641 AD say that the Israelites were black people who could not be told apart from Nubians and Ethiopians.



"A Short History of the Copts and of Their Church" by The Rev. S.C. Malan, M.A., page 72 (1873) D. Nutt

https://books.google.com/books/about/A_Short_History_of_the_Copts_and_of_Thei.html?id=ybXUAAAAMAAJ
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

Curious to see what your next silly response will be now that I've gone back another 1,000 years and demonstrated that the Israelites were known to be black people who could not be told apart from other negroid populations.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
[QB] @the lioness

You are still rambling and deflecting.

1. I've provided sources saying that the portuguese Jews were black people.

---

Saying something is not proving something

and besides this you have no source that even says Portuguese Jews were black people.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

Yeah, I literally did. The source that I shared with Tukuler prior to you poking your head in.

In addition to multiple other sources.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

---

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:




"The Calcutta Review, Volume 5" published by University of Calcutta, page 289 (1846)

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Calcutta_Review.html?id=FlcnAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_entity

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Firsthand accounts written by arabs in 641 AD say that the Israelites were black people who could not be told apart from Nubians and Ethiopians.



"A Short History of the Copts and of Their Church" by The Rev. S.C. Malan, M.A., page 72 (1873) D. Nutt

https://books.google.com/books/about/A_Short_History_of_the_Copts_and_of_Thei.html?id=ybXUAAAAMAAJ [/QB]

---

More foolishness
where is this 641 account?
where is the 641 AD text that you claim says this?

The above is an 1873 book that says the general population of Egypt, Copts etc was of "Mixed descent"
It is describing the period when the Muslims took over in the 7th century so the application of the term "Israelite" cannot be construed to mean they were actual descendants of the Israelites 2,000 years earlier
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

You just admit that the arabs invaded Egypt in the 7th century (641 AD to be exact). This source references a firsthand account written by the invading arabs and they described the Israelites as looking exactly like the Nubians and Ethiopians.

And it LITERALLY says they were Jacobites in the same sentence, meaning descendants of Jacob (Israel).

Nice try though. You either have poor reading/comprehension skills and/or are trying to be intentionally deceptive.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Tazarah:
[qb]

---

You misconstrue what this "black Portuguese" refers to.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:


Is the section circled in red saying that the [white] jewish men who married and had children with the black/african women weren't really semitic?

---

^^ Here you refer to Godbey
Godbey described Jewish men from Portugal
marrying black women brought in from Angola.
He doesn't say black people from Portugal

and he goes on to say that black slaves were converted
It is this population that the above book is referring to because this population was much larger than the Jews that had come from Portugal

Its says "from these banished Jews, the black Portuguese"

What is means is not that the banished Jews were black.
It means black Africans who were under the of rule the Portuguese were called "Black Portuguese"
first regarded as Portuguese in a national sense as part of a Portuguese colony not from the actual country Portugal
and then after marrying the people that had actually come from Portugal, the children would be half Portuguese in actuality.
That is what "black Portuguese" means

"from these banished Jews, the black Portuguese"

-the black Portuguese came FROM
white Jews or slightly brown like some Southern Europeans are
and in the 18th century not considered "white"
(sometimes designated not "white" by being Jewish alone)

And the Portuguese were bringing in Africans to the island. So then if one of these children who is half Portuguese and half African grows up, there are more Africans around so if they marry and African the child is only 1/4 African.
So if this continues over 500 years later you can no longer notice the people looking like the early Portuguese when were banished to the island.

Some historians says it was not only Jews that were banished to Sao Tome but also some convicts and they may have not been Jewish.
Yet the source of Jewishness are the Jews.
Yet today with much influx of Africans the people don't look that "mixed" they look more African

And what these European writers were looking for was facial features they thought were "Semitic"
probably so called big "hooked" noses
_______________________________________________

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Portuguese_people

Afro-Portuguese, African-Portuguese, or Black Portuguese are Portuguese citizens or residents of Portugal with total or partial ancestry from any of the Sub-Saharan ethnic groups of Africa. Most of those perceived as Afro-Portuguese trace their ancestry to former Portuguese overseas colonies in Africa.

Black Portuguese citizens are descendants or migrants issuing from the former Portuguese African colonies, (Angola, Guinea-Bissau, São Tomé and Príncipe, Cape Verde and Mozambique),




^^ as it states here

quote:

---

"Black Portuguese " from the Cape Verde Islands

---

You don't go about investigating if the Jews in Portugal were black or not by looking at Portuguese colonies in Sao Tome or Cape Verde
islands thousands of miles away from Portugal

You have to look at old writings from and about Portugal in Europe
and form there see if you can make this delusional theory work
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
[QB] @the lioness

You just admit that the arabs invaded Egypt in the 7th century (641 AD to be exact). This source references a firsthand account written by the invading arabs and they described the Israelites as looking exactly like the Nubians and Ethiopians.

And it LITERALLY says they were Jacobites in the same sentence, meaning descendants of Jacob (Israel).

---

when he says Jacobites he is referring to Jacobite Christians in Egypt
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

1. You keep deflecting and ignoring the fact that numerous historical sources say the portuguese Jews were black -- LITERALLY black. The source I shared with Tukuler says this, not to mention the handful of others. I literally just reposted all of them for you.

3. The black portuguese were the descendants of the Jews who were banished from portugal. Godbey says the white jewish men were not considered semites. This disqualifies them as being the Jews that were spoken of. Sources also say the Jews banished from portugal were sold as slaves. These white jewish men obviously were not slaves.

3. When I show a source that references information from 641 AD proving that the Israelites were known to resemble other negroid populations, you lie and say Israelite does not mean Israelite.

Anything else you want to lie about?
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

Stop lying, deflecting, being deceptive and trying to assert that these black portuguese Jews were white caucasians or the descendants of white caucasian men. That has already been debunked. Godbey says the caucasian jewish men were not even considered as being semites (while groups of negro Jews were considered semitic), and sources say the portuguese Jews were ALREADY black -- and LITERALLY black.


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:




"The Calcutta Review, Volume 5" published by University of Calcutta, page 289 (1846)

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Calcutta_Review.html?id=FlcnAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_entity

---

---

Your own sources keep debunking your own claims
Once again they are talking not about Portugal but instead far away colonies of Portugal

And again the topic here is "INTERMARRIAGE" "between Natives and Portuguese"

"hybrid race"

and a key quote here, said to from 1639 by Johan Albrecht de Mandelslo who visted Goa in India and remarked about such intermarriage:

"in the third generation become as black as the natives of the country."

So obviously when William Winwood Reade traveled to Sao Tome in 1862 and said
"I could detect no relic of the Jewish type: which is decidedly providential; for a union of the Jew and the Negro would be, commercially speaking, dangerous to Christianity"

That this is what he was observing in arriving generations later

So we can easily see the pattern here.
European colonists settle in another continent and intermarry with locals
- if they don't keep migrating there in substantial numbers but people in neighboring areas do, after a few generations they are
for want of a better term "bred out" by the conditions of the situation


So again, the lesson is if you want Jews in Portugal to be black you need to look at Portuguese history not in their far off colonies surrounded by people not Portuguese

As I stated before one doesn't have to leave Africa and go to Portugal to find the Moroccan Jews with a history far before the Spanish and Portuguese exploitations of Africa

It's twisted how you would want the very Christian and Jewish "pioneers" of the trans Atlantic slave trade to be black
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

Can you read? Like, seriously. This is getting sad. You're trying so hard to push your false narrative that you are reading things into the source when it's very clear in what it says.

Read it SLOWLY... okay??

"...many Arabs of pure blood in the middle of Africa
are as black as negroes--the Jews of Portugal and of Cochin
are very black, THOUGH THEY DO NOT INTERMARRY WITH THE NATIVES."

Your reading/comprehension is extremely poor. The parts you highlighted are speaking about regular portuguese men coming and mixing with natives, it says nothing about the PORTUGUESE JEWS mixing with the natives -- it says the EXACT OPPOSITE, LITERALLY -- that the portuguese Jews were VERY BLACK, and DID NOT MIX WITH THE NATIVES.

You're doing the same thing with the Godbey source -- butchering the information with your poor reading/comprehension skills.


 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
TO THE GENERAL READERSHIP because my name was used when Godbey was interpreted against himself.
Had my name not been invoked I couldn't give a hydroelectric what anyone imagines Godbey says.

Again, Godbey doesn't hold that Semitic applies to physical features.

Godbey's index entry on page 796

code:

---

"Semitic face" imaginary, 5, 10, 148,
  552;  "Semitic race"  non-existent,
  155;   no  Semitic   aborigines  in
  Asia  Minor, 589  

---

.

Godbey in fact deconstructs a host of misconceptions other than The
Lost Tribes being a Myth. The book cannot be read in less than a year
and it takes years to coalesce its contents on their own terms rather
than cherry-pick them for use as a foil for pre-judged presentations
that won't take time to digest alternate explanations? Polemic writers
believe themselves incapable of committing even a single error, all
sources being invalid except those made to fit into their preconceived
biases.


'Objective' investigators, without a polemic axe to grind,
concur there's no such thing as any Semitic physical type
much less a particular Jewish one. Hence the case of Reade
hunting for 'semitic features' in Sao Thome, Congo, Angola
(or anywhere) is an off base non-starter from the get go
just as Godbey posited nearly 100 years ago.

See
Patai Myth of the Jewish Race and
Fishberg The Jews: a study of race and environment
posted earlier in this thread and over the years.

quote:

---

Y*hhez*qe'l 16:44-45
Behold, every one that useth proverbs shall use this proverb against thee, saying: As the mother, so her daughter.
Thou art thy mother's daughter, that loatheth her husband and her children; and thou art the sister of thy sisters, who loathed their husbands and their children; your mother was a Hittite, and your father an Amorite.

---

TN"K itself seems to mock the so-called Jewish nose



as a feature acquired from Hittite infusion, so it's
called Hittite nose in some pre-20th Century sources
used in this thread.


Anyone looking at imgs of south Levantines, Sinai,
and Jordan/NE Saudi ancient residents vs
imgs of Anatolis can see the cartoon Jewish
nose is characteristic of the latter. Them
and Mesopotamian peoples mixed with Anatoli
migrants

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@Tukuler

That's an interesting opinion on the Godbey source but even if we look at the primary source that he refetenced (savage africa, Reade) we see that Reade is literally saying that he did not observe a "jewish type" in the island population.

Reade did not use the term "semitic", Godbey did. And he used it to paraphrase and give a better idea of what Reade actually meant.

---

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@Tukuler

I understand your opinion on the topic but like I said, even the primary source that Godbey quotes (Savage Africa, Reade) says that no "jewish" characteristics were observable among the population of those who descended from the caucasian men who claimed to be Jews.

Thus, there obviously some sort of "jewish" phenotype that was known to them they could not find amongst the descendants of the caucasian men who claimed to be Jews. )Godbey uses the word "semite" instead of "jewish".)

Godbey asserted that this was because the caucasian men who claimed to be Jews were not actually semites according to what semites were known to look like -- we know that he is talking about literal semites because Godbey, in the same paragraph, also goes onto say that a population of negroes was believed to be semitic -- according to another explorer named Bastian.

In other words, these explorers knew what Jews were supposed to look like and what they were not supposed to look like.

At the end of the day, even IF what you say is true, Godbey's supposed opinion(s) on the validity of "semitic" characteristics is irrelevant because the people whom he cites clearly said whether or not they believed these groups in question were or weren't semitic.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

Can you read? Like, seriously. This is getting sad. You're trying so hard to push your false narrative that you are reading things into the source when it's very clear in what it says.

Read it SLOWLY... okay??

quote:

---

"...many Arabs of pure blood in the middle of Africa
are as black as negroes--the Jews of Portugal and of Cochin
are very black, THOUGH THEY DO NOT INTERMARRY WITH THE NATIVES."

---

---

This does not say Arabs are negroes it says in the middle of Africa there are Arabs who are as dark as negroes

Similarly it does not describe Jews of Portugal as negroes of Portugal
and assuming that the statement "they do not intermarry with natives" applies to not only the Cochin but to the Jews of Portugal then it is saying the Jews of Portugal are not natives of Portugal. If they are not natives of Portugal what are they natives to?

And it does not describe Cochin (in south India) as negroes of Cochin.

It describes the Jews of Portugal as very black, this refers to skin color only.
Some Jews of Portugal may have been brown but they were not as dark as the average "negro" or properly described as "very black" in todays use.
The book is wrong if that is what is being conveyed, it's exaggeration and you add additional false narrative, that Portuguese Jews looked like West Africans "negroes"





The following is a description of the Jews of Cochin by 16th-century Jewish traveler Zechariah Dhahiri (recollections of his travels circa 1558).

quote:

---

I travelled from the land of Yemen unto the land of India and Cush, in order to search out a better livelihood. I had chosen the frontier route, where I made a passage across the Great Sea by ship for twenty days... I arrived at the city of Calicut, which upon entering I was sorely grieved at what I had seen, for the city’s inhabitants are all uncircumcised and given over to idolatry. There isn’t to be found in her a single Jew with whom I could have, otherwise, taken respite in my journeys and wanderings. I then turned away from her and went into the city of Cochin, wherein I found what my soul desired, insofar that a community of Spaniards is to be found there who are derived of Jewish lineage, along with other congregations of proselytes. They had been converted many years ago, of the natives of Cochin and Germany. They are adept in their knowledge of Jewish laws and customs, acknowledging the injunctions of the Divine Law (Torah), and making use of its means of punishment. I dwelt there three months, among the holy congregations

---

One will find Muslims in various parts of the world or Jews make claims that their lineage goes back to Mecca or Israelites
One cannot rely on that necessarily being true



Here is a man from Kochi (formerly "Cochin")
in South India along the coast
He can be described as black as a negro
yet not a negro

and the term "black" was used much more loosely in the past then it is today. As late as the 18th century
Europeans with the slightest tint or anything less than very light skinned.
Benjamin Franklin for instance, did not consider anybody but the palest Anglo Saxon to be "white" and

quote:

---

That the Number of purely white People in the World is proportionably very small. All Africa is black or tawny. Asia chiefly tawny. America (exclusive of the new Comers) wholly so. And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted, who with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth.
- Benjamin Franklin Observations Concerning the Increase of Mankind, Peopling of Countries, etc
1751

---

So in 1751 were Italians, French, Russians and Swedes
not "white"

Of course not, they were the same as they are today and "white" as per how the term is used today

Carry on with your ongoing assumption "if its written in a book it's accurate"
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

strawman argument -- I never said arabs were negroes, nor did I say the source said that.

Funny how hard you just tried to deflect with that long-winded post after completely butchering what the source said concerning the skin color of the portuguese Jews.

Now you're trying to lie and and be deceptive as usual by saying "they weren't as black as the average negro" -- according to who, you? The source certainly does not say that nor does it imply that.

It says they were BLACK, and that they did not intermarry with the natives.

The context is speaking about BLACK people, and the word "negro" in the previous sentence is a qualifier.

It also says the portuguese Jews AND the Jews cochin were both very black and guess what? The Jews of Cochin were negroes.
____________

"The negro Jews had nine synagogues, three in Cochin, and the others in the vicinity."

"The History of the Jews" by Hannah Adams, page 452 (1818, republished in 2009) Applewood Books

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_History_of_the_Jews.html?id=dO4BxgleIlIC
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

All you do is lie, misinterpret information, etc., and you always get caught and debunked.

I'm still laughing at how you said "Israelite doesn't mean Israelite" when I brought out that reference that said the Israelites in 641 AD could not be told apart from Nubians and Ethiopians.

Rofl.

We all know you've been debunked when you start saying retarded things like "Carry on with your ongoing assumption "if its written in a book it's accurate" -- yet you ALSO quote information from the books I share, as well as your own sources.

ROFL, HYPOCRITE. Just sit down already.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

WAIT, so let me get this straight -- first you try to lie and claim these black portuguese Jews were descendants of white men -- then after I point out that you completely misread and butchered the information in the source, you switch your argument to "oh well black doesn't really mean black and negro doesn't really mean negro."

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@Tukuler

I understand your opinion on the topic but like I said, even the primary source that Godbey quotes (Savage Africa, Reade) says that no "jewish" characteristics were observable among the population of those who descended from the caucasian men who claimed to be Jews.

Thus, there obviously some sort of "jewish" phenotype that was known to them they could not find amongst the descendants of the caucasian men who claimed to be Jews. )Godbey uses the word "semite" instead of "jewish".)

Godbey asserted that this was because the caucasian men who claimed to be Jews were not actually semites according to what semites were known to look like -- we know that he is talking about literal semites because Godbey, in the same paragraph, also goes onto say that a population of negroes was believed to be semitic -- according to another explorer named Bastian.

In other words, these explorers knew what Jews were supposed to look like and what they were not supposed to look like.

At the end of the day, even IF what you say is true, Godbey's supposed opinion(s) on the validity of "semitic" characteristics is irrelevant because the people whom he cites clearly said whether or not they believed these groups in question were or weren't semitic.

---

As we can see your scholarship lacks depth.
I was the one who had to post Reade's quote which you were then forced to react to.
You were just going to assume that it said what Godbey said it said but as you discovered that Reade used the word "Jewish type" but Godbey changed the word to "Semitic"

Thus we learn that unless an author quotes another author then we cannot assume their paraphrasing to exactly match what the other author said.

But you still haven't learned the lesson which is go to the original source, again another reference this time to Bastian

You say

"Godbey, in the same paragraph, also goes onto say that a population of negroes was believed to be semitic -- according to another explorer named Bastian."

and you leave out how Godbey actually put it
"Bastian studied these negroes, known as 'Judeos' by the Portuguese, and thought he found some trace of the so-called Semitic blood."

Why is the word "trace" used ?
Did Bastian use this word
That is what you're supposed to know

So this is your homework, go find the Bastian book.
It's in German
Then after locating the right page it can be translated online even from a text image which would first change the image text to real text

Is the "trace" that he thought some of the people of kingdom of Loango (parts of Angola and Gabon) had "Semitic" facial features?

Well we don't know, you don't know how this white German dude Bastian was determining what he thought was a trace of Semitic

This member of the white race which you regard as fakers while simultaneously taking the word as soon as it's printed in a book to be accurate as long as it fits your pre-conceived expectation
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

Are you still talking?

Your reading comprehension is so poor that you thought the source was saying the black portuguese Jews were the result of intermarriage when the source LITERALLY SAYS they did not intermarry with the natives. I have the screenshot right here, in case you try to delete or edit your post.



then, after your poor reading/comprehension skills get exposed, you switch your argument to "black doesn't mean black and negro doesn't mean negro."

Seriously, are you done yet? Stop embarrassing yourself.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

WAIT, so let me get this straight -- first you try to lie and claim these black portuguese Jews were descendants of white men -- then after I point out that you completely misread and butchered the information in the source, you switch your argument to "oh well black doesn't really mean black and negro doesn't really mean negro."

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

---

It's not me, it's your source material, Godbey
he talks about Portuguese race mixing all over the place and the other Calcutta Review book does as well
They often talk about "negroes" in separate remarks from "Jews"

You simply blind your eyes to all this and cherry pick remarks

And the use of "black" and "white" in different is another additional layer which should be noted in looking it any old sources

"...many Arabs of pure blood in the middle of Africa
are as black as negroes--the Jews of Portugal and of Cochin
are very black, THOUGH THEY DO NOT INTERMARRY WITH THE NATIVES."


^^ again so what?

Anybody who reads old historical books knows they are rife with inaccuracies
Yet you continue to believe anything printed in a book is true

What scholars do is they don't take one source for granted like you do. They read 5 or more sources to begin to from an opinion on how accurate various claims are

For instance you were not even aware that there are more than one type of Cochin Jew

https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/4435-cochin

Jewish Encyclopedia, 1906

COCHIN:
By: Joseph Jacobs, Joseph Ezekiel

State of India, within the Madras Presidency. The Jews in Cochin numbered 1,142 in 1891, and are divided into two classes: the Whites, whose complexion is almost as fair as that of European Jews, and the Blacks, who, though darker than the former, are not so black as negroes, and are of the same complexion as the Jews of Yemen or Kurdistan.

The White Jews number at present about fifty families, and these are divided into six stocks: the Zakkai, who are the oldest, and are said to have come from Cranganore in 1219; the Castillia, exiles from Spain in 1492, who arrived at Cochin in 1511; the Ashkenazi and Rothenburg, who came from Germany in the sixteenth century; and the Rahabi and Haligua families, who came from Aleppo about 1680. There are three hundred families of the Blacks.

Jews intermingling with the natives became the progenitors of the Black Jews of Cochin. These are mentioned by Ibn Wahab in the ninth century; and Benjamin of Tudela appears to have visited or heard of them about 1167. He reports that they were one hundred in number and as black as the rest of the inhabitants of Coilum or Quilon, then the most important port on the Malabar coast. There Marco Polo found them a century later ("Travels of Sir Marco Polo," ed. Yule, ii. 263), and when Vasco da Gama reached Calicut in1487, the first person he met was a Jew said to have come from Posen via Turkey and Palestine (Kayserling, "Christopher Columbus," pp. 113-114). In 1511 they were joined by Jews from Portugal. In 1565 they were threatened with the Inquisition by the Portuguese Christians settling at Cranganore, and fled to Cochin, where their number increased so rapidly that the Portuguese historian De Barros (1496-1570) refers to the King of Cochin as the "king of the Jews" ("Asia," III. ii. 234).

Though they neither eat nor drink together, nor intermarry, the Black and the White Jews of Cochin have almost the same social and religious customs. They hold the same doctrines, use the same ritual (Sephardic), observe the same feasts and fasts, dress alike, and have adopted the same vernacular, Malayalam, a dialect of Tamil. Their chief articles of food are rice and the milk of the coconut. Maẓẓot are eaten only at the Seder, and though the Whites eat cooked fishes and chicken on the Sabbath, the Blacks eat no meat

____________________________


A lot of details here, this is just part of it
The blacks here are not "negroes"

Is they accurate?
Go find several other sources

Or continue to be ignorant, read one quote you like and then take it as fact to confirm what you already have decided what you want to be true
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

Are you still talking?

Your reading comprehension is so poor that you thought the source was saying the black portuguese Jews were the result of intermarriage when the source LITERALLY SAYS they did not intermarry with the natives. I have the screenshot right here, in case you try to delete or edit your post.



then, after your poor reading/comprehension skills get exposed, you switch your argument to "black doesn't mean black and negro doesn't mean negro."

Seriously, are you done yet? Stop embarrassing yourself.

---

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Oh now the book is inaccurate because your poor reading comprehension got exposed? Yet the book wasn't "rife with inaccuracies" when you were trying to use it against me. Rofl
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
There's no such thing as Jewish physical features
and wrong Reade is not the only available author.

Jews resemble their host population
because of same majority geo-lineage.


Of course polemics are free to disregard
99 facts against a point in favor of the
one 'fact' that boosts the polemic.


It's useless to argue against a polemic
since polemicists are like religionists
who place personal belief above any
demonstrable objective facts.


This thread is a polemic by its author.
No use presenting uncontrovertible fact
if meant to sway the broacher. Quotes
and refences I provide are for the
general reading audience and are not
meant to sway the polemicist author
of this polemic.

I can easily take up the polemic myself.
I think like the School of Hillel who
could present their opponents' view
frontward and backward, did so and
asked opponents for any needed
corrections, and then went on to
demolish the opponent all the while
allowing all following the discussion
to draw their own conclusions.

In other words until one can correctly
assess something they disagree with
they need to study the contested factors
to the point were they can make a positive
argument in its favor even though staunchly
against it.

The polemic that is this thread refuses
to accept that semitic is only language
and so no one can look semitic no matter
what Reade or anyone else said > 100 yrs ago.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@Tukuler

Semitic is "only a language"? I could have sworn that Shem was the progenitor of the shemitic bloodline.

And according to anthropological/archaeological studies on ancient bones, ancient shemites were negroid people.

Of course new phenotypes are created when people mix but to claim the original bloodline is lost or mixed away is absurd.

Next you will be saying that Syrian or Jew "is only a language."
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Negro is a specious term.
Yaphet Koto was a negro.
Adam Clayton Powell was a negro.
The two men represent completely
different racial features.
Negro is a useless term
because of its plasticity
only applicable to sociology
though forensics employs it.
Would 3/4 of American Freedmen
fit 75% of the textbook defined
negro physical characteristics?


=-=-=-=-=


One can get a Bachelors just sitting butt in classroom chair.
But, ah, to progress beyond undergraduate study requires the field.

Who in this thread has actually ever met an Indian Jew?

I have congregated with them for Rosh haShana,
Kippur, Sukkoth, Simhhath Torah, and Purim.
Most have the complexion range of the American
Freedmen ie no different than other Indian Ocean
shore people like East & Horn Africans, Gulf Arabs,
south Indians, Sri Lankans, and western southeast
Asians.

I was taken aback and had to apologize to one
woman at a kiddush for staring at her, she
reminded me so much of one of my aunties (no pun).

An Indian Jew was prominent in founding Chicago's
oldest W Afr descent synagogue near 100 years ago.

Author Jose Malcioln

https://transcription.si.edu/project/12085
https://www.amazon.com/African-Origin-Modern-Judaism-Hebrews/dp/0865433720

was president of an Indian Jewish organization in NYC.

It was from him I first learned during a wheat shortage
white Israelis refused to sell white bread to Indian Jews
(Hodu) taunting them with "White bread (wheat) for white Jews.
Black bread (pumpernickel) for black Jews.

Anyone interested in travelogues by pre-modern Jewish authors who saw India's Jews with their very own eyes?
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Anthropologists and archaeologists affirm and openly admit the fact that ancient shemites were "negroid" people. We can play semantics with the terms but we all know they are only being used to demonstrate my position in a manner that classifies and clarifies who I am specifically talking about.

The ancient Elamites were direct descendants of Shem.

GENESIS 10:22

"22 The children of Shem; Elam, and Asshur, and Arphaxad, and Lud, and Aram."
_________

According to the following source, the ancient Elamites (SHEMITES) of the Levant were negroid people.


 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Why fuss and muss when I already pointed out most Indian Jews are blacks (not negro).
Is it the polemicist arguing just to argue ever on the defensive against any perceived
disagreement even though calm rational review shows agreement about Indian Jews' phenotype
and perception by 'white' Jews be they Ashkenazi foreigners or 'recent' broad Sephardi immigrants
who introduced graveyard segregation and other discriminations against the black Jews of India.


24 years ago I web-published the pasuq from Pirqe de Ribbi 'Eli`ezer wherein it is
written "Shem was blessed black and beautiful", try one-upping somebody else.

Both mythological, Shem and Hham were blessed black.
Nonetheless Shem is not Hham
nor conversely is Hham Shem.

Hham and Shem only apply to the geographies, languages,
families, and nations listed in B*reshiyth 10 https://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0110.htm
Them and those who assume descent from the mythological
ancestors of those lands, lects, kins, and countries.

And so I learned Elam was Sh-emitic per the ancient Hebrews
yet Elamitic is not a S-emitic language per linguistic science.

Neither Hham nor Shem were negro, a term still undefined
in this polemic but suspected to mean both the American
usage, where even a physical Nordheimer can be as negro
as the born in the slavery era Euro anthropology 'science'
absolute or tru negro physicality.

Polemicists will substitute the American word negro with the
old school anthropology and current forensics term negro when it
suits them, else when it suits them deny either is applicable to
the subject matter at hand. Anything, no matter how contradictory,
just so long it seemingly supports the polemic notion of the minute
never mind rejecting it elsewhere in the same hop-scotch jumping from
here to there polemic.

This is why polemics are near useless in academics.
Doesn't mean polemics has no use at all. It's perfect
for preaching to the choir but leaks water like a sieve
as far as the unconverted are concerned.


When I joined ES back in 2004 everyone rejected the
notion of the negro as an anthropology identifiable entity
and were into idea of the various Inner Africa phenotypes
presented in Hiernaux 1976, now itself considered down level

https://archive.org/details/peopleofafrica0000hier

and little better than the outright stereotypes it rebuffed.

Will ES retrogress to accepting 18th&19th century 'science'
that defines negro as only
* deep brown complexion
* flat bridge, round nostril, very wide at base nose
* bimaxillary protrusion (sub-nasal/alveolar prognathism)
* thick, everted lips with outer ring
* short growing tight coily/wooly head hair

https://archive.org/details/race00bake/page/325/mode/2up?q=+&view=theater

No semantics. It is what it is.
Saying it is what it ain't?
Now that's your semantics
as polemicists will only
validate what they think
supports their points or
can be twisted to seem in
support of the exact opposite
of what was originally published.


=-=-=-=


Tazara presents provocative infos in this thread, much of it 'new'.
Everyone interested in global black peoples and Jews are challenged
to learn what they might not've known before with Taz as The Revealer
sharing his gleanings. Looking forward to more.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@Tukuler

I use the word "black" to make a point, then you attack the credibility of my position by pointing out that the word "black" holds no significant meaning (which I already admitted earlier in this thread).

I then move on to getting more specific by using the term negro. You and/or the lioness attack that as well. I then move onto using "negroid" -- an even more specific term and you attack that as well.

According to your logic, there is no word or classification good enough to identify what ancient people were, even though anthropologists and archaeologists are clear in what they've found regarding ancient shemitic bones.

it's semantics.

Complaining about the meaning of words when we all know what they are referring to is a bogus way to push aside evidence.

You also claim Shem is "mythological" -- the Torah says otherwise. Just another way to push aside the fact that there is an actual Shemitic bloodline and Shemitic people.

18th/19th century anthropology and archaeology is extremely relevant due to the fact that it proves modern science is not telling the same story that science was telling when black people were slaves and not allowed to read.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
********* Tazarah acknowledging the credibility of the word "negro" (very last paragraph)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@tukuler

Thank you for response. Well in short, I believe it's talking about a black skin complexion in regards to the portuguese Jews being spoken of. I believe the context proves this because in the preceeding sentence the source makes reference to certain arabs in africa being "black as negroes" and then in the very next sentence it says the portuguese Jews were very black.

It also compares the complexion of the [black] portuguese Jews to the Jews of Cochin, who are undoubtedly "black", and some sources even refer to the Jews of cochin as "negro Jews".

The fact that the source in question does not refer to the portuguese Jews as "negroes", although they are described as black, does not really mean anything in my opinion because "negro" is a byword that was placed upon so-called black people by oppressors.

---

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
********* Tazarah acknowledging the credibility of the word "black" (very last sentence)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

When one does the research and puts all of the information from the sources together, the answer is yes -- the black portuguese Jews and their black descendants looked the same as the black people in america today. I would even argue that a lot of them are the same people but don't even know it because of the slave trade and slavery.

For example: one of the most recent sources I shared with Tukuler says the Jews of portugal were black (I've also shared many others that say this as well) and according to the following source, the [black] portuguese Jews were banished to several locations in west africa -- Loango being one of them. The source says that the Jews in Loango (west africa) are descendants of these [black] Jews who were banished.



"The Critical Review, Or, Annals of Literature, Volume 57" by Tobias George Smollett, page 141 (1783) W. Simpkin and R. Marshall

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Critical_Review_Or_Annals_of_Literat.html?id=d2IvAQAAMAAJ

This next source says that the black Jews in Loango, who were the descendants of the [black] Jews who were banished from Portugal, looked exactly like all of the other negroes in west africa in every way.



"A Tribute for the Negro" by Wilson Armistead, page 65-66 (1848) W. Irwin; American agent, W. Harned, New York

https://books.google.com/books/about/A_Tribute_for_the_Negro.html?id=YCGLzSxVSsIC

***** P.S. I say "so-called black people" because black is not an actual legitimate ethnicity, nationality, etc. It's a color used by our oppressors to describe a race of people whose ancestors certainly did not refer to themselves as "black" people prior to being conquered.

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
18 pages of ripping off Rudolph Windsor circa 1969
without mentioning him ?
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

I don't know what you're talking about or trying to say but as far as I'm concerned your credibility has been completely destroyed. From here on out whenever you poke your head in and try to cause confusion I'm just going to post this screenshot of you completely misrepresenting a source due to your lack of reading/comprehension skills and/or deceptive intentions.

The following screenshot shows @the lioness trying to conflate two different paragraphs from the same source, and these two different paragraphs are talking about two completely different groups of people.

@the lioness highlights information that references regular portuguese people (not the portuguese Jews) mixing with natives and tries to make it seem as if the source is saying the black portuguese Jews descend from white portuguese men, yet the source CLEARLY says the portuguese Jews were black and DID NOT intermarry or mix with the natives.


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
18 pages of ripping off Rudolph Windsor aka the author of 'From Babylon to Timbuktu' (1969)
without mentioning him ?

Come on
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Tazarah, questions:

1) do you practice Judaism?

2) what is your estimate of how many modern West Africans have ancestry going back to the Israelites?
Would you say under or over 1% ?
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

I don't know what you're talking about or trying to say but as far as I'm concerned your credibility has been completely destroyed. From here on out whenever you poke your head in and try to cause confusion I'm just going to post this screenshot of you completely misrepresenting a source due to your lack of reading/comprehension skills and/or deceptive intentions.

The following screenshot shows @the lioness trying to conflate two different paragraphs from the same source, and these two different paragraphs are talking about two completely different groups of people.

@the lioness highlights information that references regular portuguese people (not the portuguese Jews) mixing with natives and tries to make it seem as if the source is saying the black portuguese Jews descend from white portuguese men, yet the source CLEARLY says the portuguese Jews were black and DID NOT intermarry or mix with the natives.

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Tazarah, yes you have done a great you expose of me, how I confused the paragraphs, you win, very nice.

So you can do ten more posts with the screen shots and saying the same thing over an over and bore everybody to death
or move on to more interesting matters like

1) do you practice Judaism?

2) what is your estimate of how many modern West Africans have ancestry going back to the Israelites?
Would you say under or over 1% ?

3) have you read any parts of the book:
'From Babylon to Timbuktu' ?


I would be surprised if you didn't practice Judaism at this point with all the talk here and on lipstick
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

Why would I continue to entertain the nonsense of someone like you who misinterprets scholastic information to push a false narrative and obfuscate the truth? Whenever I dialogue with you, this is what you do.

You even lied and said the word "Israelite" didn't actually mean Israelite when I produced a source that recorded the arabs saying that Israelites could not be told apart from Nubians and Ethiopians in 641 AD.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

I don't know what you're talking about or trying to say but as far as I'm concerned your credibility has been completely destroyed. From here on out whenever you poke your head in and try to cause confusion I'm just going to post this screenshot of you completely misrepresenting a source due to your lack of reading/comprehension skills and/or deceptive intentions.

The following screenshot shows @the lioness trying to conflate two different paragraphs from the same source, and these two different paragraphs are talking about two completely different groups of people.

@the lioness highlights information that references regular portuguese people (not the portuguese Jews) mixing with natives and tries to make it seem as if the source is saying the black portuguese Jews descend from white portuguese men, yet the source CLEARLY says the portuguese Jews were black and DID NOT intermarry or mix with the natives.

---

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

Why would I continue to entertain the nonsense of someone like you who misinterprets scholastic information to push a false narrative and obfuscate the truth? Whenever I dialogue with you, this is what you do.

You even lied and said the word "Israelite" didn't actually mean Israelite when I produced a source that recorded the arabs saying that Israelites could not be told apart from Nubians and Ethiopians in 641 AD.

---

I'm not continuing. I'm quitting.
Your scholarship is too good. I've have been defeated and exposed for lying

But I think everybody would like to know why you seem to be so invested in this?
I'm not discussing these historical details anymore

1) Do you practice Judaism?

2) have you read any parts of the book:
'From Babylon to Timbuktu' ?

3) what is your estimate of how many modern West Africans have ancestry going back to the Israelites?
Would you say under or over 1% ?

I'm trying to get at the question of why

why do you think this is important ?
I think everybody is wondering where you are coming from with this, what is the point of looking at this topic? Is there some goal behind it, correcting history alone or is there some kind of religious significance to this?

or is that a secret?
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

The fact that you think I'm interested in any sort of discussion with you after you've been caught blatantly lying about the scholastic information I've been sharing is hilarious.

Nobody is interested in any of those IRRELEVANT questions except for you, you're trying to deflect and divert attention away from the fact that you are an incompetent liar who likes to lie about information in order to push a narrative.

I'm not answering any of your questions, the last thing people will see in this thread from me in response to you is the screenshot exposing your lies and dishonesty
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

I don't know what you're talking about or trying to say but as far as I'm concerned your credibility has been completely destroyed. From here on out whenever you poke your head in and try to cause confusion I'm just going to post this screenshot of you completely misrepresenting a source due to your lack of reading/comprehension skills and/or deceptive intentions.

The following screenshot shows @the lioness trying to conflate two different paragraphs from the same source, and these two different paragraphs are talking about two completely different groups of people.

@the lioness highlights information that references regular portuguese people (not the portuguese Jews) mixing with natives and tries to make it seem as if the source is saying the black portuguese Jews descend from white portuguese men, yet the source CLEARLY says the portuguese Jews were black and DID NOT intermarry or mix with the natives.

---

---

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

The fact that you think I'm interested in any sort of discussion with you after you've been caught blatantly lying about the scholastic information I've been sharing is hilarious.

Nobody is interested in any of those IRRELEVANT questions except for you, you're trying to deflect and divert attention away from the fact that you are an incompetent liar who likes to lie about information in order to push a narrative.

I'm not answering any of your questions, the last thing people will see in this thread from me in response to you is the screenshot exposing your lies and dishonesty

---

I think you're trying to hide stuff.

Anyway who even wrote the Calcutta Review that you quoted from?

Some anonymous person we are supposed to regard as credible.
They could be the one who is lying, did you consider that?
Did you consider the fact that what they wrote on the same page contradicts itself?
And whoever wrote this says

"..many Arabs of pure blood in the middle of Africa
are as black as negroes--the Jews of Portugal and of Cochin
are very black, though they do not marry with the natives"

Whoever wrote this is ignorant of the fact that in Cochin there are white Jews and there are black Jews
and that is attested to going back to historical records hundreds of years old and it is a known fact the two groups there have been known not to like each other and the white one exploiting the black ones.
(and by black here they are not ones with tight cured afro type hair, they are dark with straight hair)
You wouldn't know that because you don't know anything about the Cochin, you haven't study a anything about them. The first thing you read about them that you like you regard as fact
completely ignorant to the fact that different historians make different claims.
The origins of the Jews there is not firmly known and the so called "black" Jews who look like dark skinned people of Southern India could be older than the Paradesi Jews (so called 'white' Jews)
These Pardesei Jews of Cochin are also known as "Foreign Jews" they go back several hundreds years.
So why are they lighter "white" than the black Jews of Cochin? it is thought that they came from Portugal from the expulsion, yes it fits, not natives

So, you with your tunnel vison, have realities in reverse. And it is these white Jews and Black Jews of Cochin who don't intermarry with each other.

None of this is to say there aren't Jews in other parts of the world with hair types typical of Africans or in China some Jews with Asian traits

Now let's go back to your anonymous person quote, the first thing you read you believe, the one that contradicts themselves on the same page

"..many Arabs of pure blood in the middle of Africa
are as black as negroes--the Jews of Portugal and of Cochin
are very black, though they do not marry with the natives"

Guess who the native ones are?
Those are the dark "black Jews"

The white ones are the ones from Portugal !!!
Those were the expelled ones. Many originally expelled from Spain and only temporarily in Portugal until the King there also decided to expel them if they refused to convert.
Are there Portuguese or Spanish writings of that 15th century period or art describing then as people resembling Africans? No
In fact the art says otherwise but you would look at it, the blinders are tightly attached

You know nothing about the Cochin but one sentence written by some anonymous person.
You don't know how to study a topic you are just a propagandist trying to slant everything.
Why I don't know

And is your slant even original?

Of course not, that whole Black Portuguese trip goes
back to "From Babylon To Timbuktu"
page 123-126



https://archive.org/details/fromBabylonToTimbuktu/page/n125/mode/2up?q=portugal

This is a very well known book in Black Hebrew circles and it would less embarrassing for you to have been trying to pass it off as your own thought
than to actually have been unaware of it

.


.


Jews from Yemen, reality check


The whole "Black Portuguese" concept makes me angry.
The Portuguese are the first ones in Africa, founders of the trans-Atlantic slave trade and colonial plantations. The island was uninhabited if not they killed any natives there. They threw out the white Jews from Portugal there and set up slavery of Africans, Africans who had their own indigenous traditional religions. They encouraged these white Jews to mix with Angolan women and then the white Jews and later their mixed offspring participated in the slave trading themselves, being half African they had advantages in trade negotiations with African kings who also participated.
The Portuguese in San Tome and other of their colonies along with the white Jews > not black that they brought there represent the introduction of the European and later American slave trade
and now some dummies want to be them, what a farce, what a corruption of black history.
And if not this, nonsense about black nobility in Europe. All of this is P.T.S.S. at it's finest flights of fantasy and revisionist denial
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

I don't know what you're talking about or trying to say but as far as I'm concerned your credibility has been completely destroyed. From here on out whenever you poke your head in and try to cause confusion I'm just going to post this screenshot of you completely misrepresenting a source due to your lack of reading/comprehension skills and/or deceptive intentions.

The following screenshot shows @the lioness trying to conflate two different paragraphs from the same source, and these two different paragraphs are talking about two completely different groups of people.

@the lioness highlights information that references regular portuguese people (not the portuguese Jews) mixing with natives and tries to make it seem as if the source is saying the black portuguese Jews descend from white portuguese men, yet the source CLEARLY says the portuguese Jews were black and DID NOT intermarry or mix with the natives.

---

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
by the way who wrote that "Calcutta Review" ?

neverminded , it doesn't matter we are in an intellectual wasteland of wannabe Portuguese-ism

How bizarre,
we were not Africans we were black nobles
of Europe, no no we were Indigenous Americans, no no we are Asiatic, no no we were Portuguese Jews, no no Olmecs, no we were Moors
what a ball of confusion
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

I don't know what you're talking about or trying to say but as far as I'm concerned your credibility has been completely destroyed. From here on out whenever you poke your head in and try to cause confusion I'm just going to post this screenshot of you completely misrepresenting a source due to your lack of reading/comprehension skills and/or deceptive intentions.

The following screenshot shows @the lioness trying to conflate two different paragraphs from the same source, and these two different paragraphs are talking about two completely different groups of people.

@the lioness highlights information that references regular portuguese people (not the portuguese Jews) mixing with natives and tries to make it seem as if the source is saying the black portuguese Jews descend from white portuguese men, yet the source CLEARLY says the portuguese Jews were black and DID NOT intermarry or mix with the natives.

---

---

---

again, for you
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
by the way who wrote that "Calcutta Review" ?

neverminded , it doesn't matter we are in an intellectual wasteland of wannabe Portuguese-ism

How bizarre,
we were not Africans we were black nobles
of Europe, no no we were Indigenous Americans, no no we are Asiatic, no no we were Portuguese Jews, no no Olmecs, no we were Moors
what a ball of confusion

---

Calcutta University published the source.

1. Somebody else has an active thread with tons of sources proving that black people were nobility in europe prior to being overthrown. I even shared a source in that same thread from the UK that says the UK is starting to teach in schools that black people settled in europe long before caucasians.

2. Have you never heard of black native indians? A simple google search will produce tons of authentic images of them.

3. Are you claiming there is no evidence of "negro" asiatics?

"The term negro is confined to slave Africans, (the ancient Berbers) and their descendants. It does not embrace the free inhabitants of Africa, such as the Egyptians, Moors, or the negro Asiatics, such as the Lascars."

"The Negro Law of South Carolina" by John Belton O'Neall, page 5 (1848) J.G. Bowman

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Negro_Law_of_South_Carolina.html?id=r9lBAAAAIAAJ

4. You have a problem with the moors being black too? Here's a statue of a moor in Europe.



5. The olmecs were native black africans. When did I ever claim to be an olmec? You're just pulling things out of your ass now aren't you?

6. In one of your previous comments did you seriously say the black portuguese Jews were the founders of the transatlantic slave trade? ROFL.

Not only are you a deceptive liar, but you are also historically illiterate.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

you're obviously triggered because you got caught red handed lying about the contents of a scholastic source. So now you're just throwing stuff at the wall and hoping to get the subject changed. The only ball of confusion here is you. PS -- NOBODY SAID THAT ALL BLACK PEOPLE DESCEND FROM ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT HISTORICAL GROUPS. THE ARGUMENT IS SIMPLY THAT THEY WERE BLACK.

Just like how Nubians, Somalians, Ethiopians, etc., are all "black", yet they are not the same people.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Chafariz d’el Rey in the Alfama District (of Lisbon)
Painting with a view of a square with the Kings Fountain, in Lisbon.
Date: 1570
Location: Lisbon, Portugal


(detail of above)


The painting is not only unprecedented for its portrayal of so many Jews — who have long beards, flat berets and yellow circles affixed to their clothes, per Charles V’s ruling — in the 1500s, but also for its depiction of so many African figures. Jews and blacks lived in coterminous neighborhoods at the port, which was considered less desirable real estate.

_________________________

^^actual evidence from 1570
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


Shouldn't we let this nonsense slide because he is a black author and he quotes historical texts, so
people can learn??

No, never let bullshit slide, this is 2021

We can see it replaying again in this very thread,
various historical documents
yes read
but misinterpreted with embarrassing childish revisionism


used to miseducate and replace pride in one Africanity with wanting to be Portuguese, the very founders, both white Christians and white Jews of the trans Atlantic slave trade,
another delusional variant of Stockholm Syndrome

at the same time overlooking Moroccan Jews who predate the whole brutal colonial Portuguese sugar slave operations in Sao Tome and elsewhere

and if you are going to rip off somebody else's nonsense at least give them credit
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

Bringing up "from babylon to timbuktu" is the hugest strawman argument you've ever made. I never referenced that book and all of the books that I did reference were written by white or non-black authors. Everyone can see what you're doing. Now that you got caught lying about what a book says to support your false narrative, you're trying to come up with other foolish excuses to deny the evidence. In fact, none of the histrical sources that I've produced were even mentioned in "from babylon to timbuktu", so bringing up that book just goes to show how completely desperate you are.






 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Reality check indeed.



_____________________________ My son Ya`aqob _________________________ A Teimani talmiydh ______________


The daughter of my Teimani mechanic
and his East Euro Askenazi wife is
taunted in Israel as black. Her
reply: "You think I'm black how
about the Ethiopians"? Her mother
took that as a statement of solidarity.
Again this independent Ashkenazi use
of something like USA One Drop.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 


"The Jews appear to have been originally a dark-skinned and woolly-haired race;"

‪"Johnson's Natural History: Volume 1" ‬by Samuel Griswold Goodrich, page 42 (1868) A.J. Johnson

https://books.google.com/books/about/Johnson_s_Natural_History.html?id=YzhKAAAAYAAJ
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_US_n4xoQR8

madundela #africanphilosophy #africology
Towards a Meaning of YHWH, Part 1 (a linguistic analysis)
477 views • Streamed live 9 hours ago •
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
How Police Killings Forced Israel to Confront Anti-Blackness
254,230 views • Jun 26, 2021 • A wave of mass protests hit Israel over the past few years in response to police killings and harassment of Ethiopian Israelis. But the community isn’t just fighting police brutality. They’re also fighting for acceptance as Black Jews in the world’s only Jewish state. VICE News explores the community’s complicated relationship with race, religion and identity as the landmark trial of a police officer charged with killing a young Ethiopian Israeli unfolds.

This series originally aired on VICE TV in February 2021.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BwAuVRzXZ8
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

Page -12-

There seemed to me a need for a book showing how the Sahara enriched the Carthaginian and bewildered the Roman; how in later times the great caravan routes, linking the sophisticated cities of the north with the great markets and modest seats of learning of the south, not only influenced the course of events in Barbary, and even beyond, but sometimes determined it; how, all down the centuries, Berbers and Arabs, Jews and Christians, never ceased to draw on the wealth and industry of the Sudanese. This book seeks to satisfy that need.

---

quote:

---

Page -69-

The Sahara was also the home of another people from the east. These were the Jews who since the beginning of the Christian era had formed an important element in the popula¬ tion of the North African littoral, whence they had spread far into the interior. The most important southward migration of Jewish tribes probably occurred in a.d. 115, following a rebel¬ lion in Cyrenaica against the Romans. The migrants took two different routes. One body travelled southward through Air and across the middle Niger to the Senegal and Futa. Here they

---

The golden trade of the Moors
by Bovill, E. W

Publication date 1958
Topics Sudan (Region) -- History, Sudan Region
Publisher London ; New York : Oxford University Press
 

---

Posted by History123 (Member # 23551) on :
 
Lmfao that source literally say's "Mixed people" who were so mixed with eachother they couldn't tell them apart. Copts are White btw, it mentioned COPTS LOL, Abyssinian artwork looks nothing like a black american man look it up lol

"Know that the land of Egypt, when the mussulmans entered it, was full of Christians, but divided among themselves in two sects, both as to race and religion...

...The other portion was the whole people of Egypt, who were called Qibt, and were of mixed descent; among whom one could not distinguish Copt from Abyssinian, Nubian or Israelite; and they were all Jacobites."

"A Short History of the Copts and of Their Church" by The Rev. S.C. Malan, M.A., page 72 (1873) D. Nutt


Not to mention there are Sources from 100AD which claim that Nubians by that time were Mixed Already in southern Egypt, and called HALF BREEDS! So by 641AD, Nubians were basically Mixed asf just like today in Egypt LOL

Nice Source buddy.


Abraham was born on 1948 of the Hebrew Calendar Foreshadowing 1948 AD, when Israel was Revived and GOD made 4 Blood moons occur on Israel's first two Passovers and Feasts back in the land, as well as a Miraculous Victory versus the Entire Arab League Multiple Times, despite us having NO AIRFORCE or EXPERIENCE FIGHTING!

Everybody Knows Israel has to be a nation for the 7 year Tribulation and gog and magog to attack Bud Simple Bible Prophecy.


The Real Hebrews are the alpha race, look at this dude this Further proves who the Real Jews are.

Only a BLESSED Suave Semitic HEBREW could pull this off, this guy is the biggest pimp, he didn't need FAME, or anything, and EVERYBODY is giving him PROPS LMFAO
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/netflix-spotlights-israeli-fraudster-in-the-tinder-swindler-1.10601161

https://www.thejc.com/news/world/israeli-tinder-swindler-banned-from-dating-sites-after-allegedly-scamming-victims-out-of-usd10m-4YfHrLbAAK0IetmxZhpnqA

Those white gals loved this dude, Showering him falling in love with him, giving him allll their money cuz we are Special and Blessssed and Cherrished by The MOST HIGH! LOL

https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/netflixs-the-tinder-swindler-renews-attention-on-israeli-who-defrauded-women/


We got Einstein, the Smartest people, The most Intelligent, The Most Pimpish, The Riches, We Got JESUS as well! LOL!

And ALLLL the European and Black girls love us.
 

---

Posted by History123 (Member # 23551) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

Daniel Finch, 2nd Earl of Nottingham and 7th Earl of Winchilsea by Jonathan Richardson




Memoirs of the Secret Services of John Macky, Esq.: During the Reigns of King William
1733

_______________________________________

In this time period one will find writers who will refer to Africans as "black" and at the same time Europeans looking slightly tinted "black". The word is used inconstantly, not like it used today in America, "Black" with a strong connotation of only primary African descent
Yet in 1733 this man Daniel Finch, 2nd Earl of Nottingham is described as a "tall thin very black man"

---

Not only are you deflecting but you are also now quoting sources out of context while hoping that they help your case but they are actually debunking you.

I notice you have nothing to say about the 3 lies that your friend zaharan told after I pointed them out, and you've still yet to address the fact that I've posted sources stating that the Jews who were banished from Portugal to West Africa during the Inquisition were black/negro people who had black/negro descendants.

In other words, these Jews were LITERALLY black, and Parfitt says on page 4 of his book (Black Jews in Africa and the Americas) that the Jews were known to be black not only metaphorically but literally as well.

It's a sad time in the world for eurocentrics like yourself and zaharan when you guys are seriously trying to convince people that white caucasian jewish people were "LITERALLY black", all to deny the truth.

---

Damn dog you got beat so bad, you had to use "black" as your only proof.

EVERYONE KNOWS Europeans called anybody of a Olive Swarthy complexation or dark haired as "Black"

Wtf does that even prove? Heck the Irish were called Black at one time Lmfao. Anyone who wasn't blonde and blue eye'd were called black, this only PROVES that afrocentrics are the biggest JOKE and Desperate Laughing stocks you want to be Hebrews soooooooo bad

LOL!
 

---

Posted by History123 (Member # 23551) on :
 
sh$%'s crazy, Afrocentrics gotta be Satanic Liars or just Trolls Lmfaooo it's so ez to debunk them good work guys/gals
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
The black portuguese Jews were black as negroes. Europeans are not black as negroes kiddo. And they never were. Keep crying ok?



And did you really try to misinterpret the source that clearly says the Israelites resembled nubians and ethiopians? The population was mixed, meaning it had different races living amongst each other. It doesn't say the israelites, nubians or ethiopians were mixed. You're so triggered, lol. Your tears are delicious.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@history123

YO you're that same clown from instagram who used to beg Israelites for attention until your account got deleted. I've been waiting SO LONG for you to find me, so that I could tell you, that I AM THE REASON YOUR PATHETIC INSTAGRAM ACCOUNT GOT DELETED. I reported your sorry racist ass until they finally got rid of you LOLOLOLOLOLOL you ugly troll Keep hating Israelites and begging us for attention


 

---

Posted by History123 (Member # 23551) on :
 
Aren't u like 40 dude????? LOL ur whole life is to go online and harass people Desperately to convince them ur one of us LOLOLOLOLOL


ur random unsourced garbage Slaughters u too! It's speaking of skin color, and say's some Arabs in the Middle of Africa due to the pisslamic spread are as dark skinned as Negroes.

>Compares ARABS in the middle of Africa so ARABS that are tanned which they do Easily, with Negroes.

>Never Compares Portuguese Jews EVER with Negroes, LOL just say's they are "black" like Europeans also called Irish black LOL nice source bud/old man


It Differentiates between Negroes and Jews/Arabs since they look Totally DIFFERENT in Facial Features/Phenotype LOLL! And No sorry it doesn't Ever Compare Jews of Portugal with Negroes as it did the Arabs. It just say's they are black, like Europeans called Irish Black lmfao, not black as Negroes.

Anyways,
Isaiah 11:11-13 gives all the Nations listed where Hebrews would be regathered from, as well as that we would be REGATHERED from the FOUR QUARTORS of the EARTH and guess what,

Every Single one of those countries listed, had Hebrews living in until recent times, including the four quarters of the Earth.

Siberia, Americas, Australia even sub Saharan European colonies, until recent times. Only Hebrews fit that Prophecy and it happened, the rest Will be Fulfilled Soon.

Btw, that's NOT ME LOL That's my FRIEND!

That's LITERALLY NOT ME LOL!!!!

Keep posting photos of my HEBREW underage Friend who slays hot girls with his Majestic Nose, thinking it's me that's how much u're Obsessed with me due to my bad boy aura

LOOOOOOOOOOOL!!

the person who ran that acc deleted it also, they didn't want to do it anymore





u look like an old gay PEDO taking selfies spamming the internet with the insane ramblings of your old brain LOLOLOLOL weirdo


Since u enjoy my tears of Joy and Laughter, have some of my poop

*sh$%s in mouth*
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@History123 this pic IS you you liar, you're so embarrassed of the way you look you gotta lie and say it's your friend LOL! I'm not even 30, and you're only here crying because your pathetic instagram page got deleted. You follow Israelites all over the internet and cry because you're mad your own people admit you are imposters who stole our identity and our culture. This is like the 4th different website that you followed me on to beg for attention LOL!!!!!


 

---

Posted by initer (Member # 23559) on :
 
GRAS ONLINE KAUFEN DEUTSCHLAND

gras online kaufen,
Fat kaufen
Bestellen Sie günstig THC Weed in Deutschland.
Kostenloser Versand und Lieferung diskret in ganz Deutschland.
weed Lieferung in der Schweiz, Österreich, und in ganz Europa.
Marihuana Lieferung in Deutschland. Coffeeshop in Deutschland.
wir sind die besten Online-Weed-Verkäufer.
wir haben Top-Regal THC Cannabis zur Verfügung zu sehr günstigen Preis.
Vertrauenswürdiger Online Weed Lieferservice in Deutschland. FAT KAUFEN
BOXHAGENER STR 40, 22049 DULSBERG HAMBURG

info@unkrautverkaufer.com
kontakt whatsapp: +4915211384193
https://unkrautverkaufer.com/

fat kaufen
marijuana kaufen
weed kaufen
cannabis kaufen
marihuana kaufen online
weed kaufen online
gras online kaufen
cannabis kaufen online bestellen
gras online bestellen deutschland
haschkekse bestellen
hanf bestellen
gras shop online
marihuana im internet kaufen
weed im internet kaufen
gras aus holland bestellen
marihuana bestellen online
online weed bestellen deutschland
weed im internet bestellen
Wo kann man weed kaufen
wo kann ich weed online bestellen
cannabis im internet bestellen
online marijuana
legal gras kaufen
gras online kaufen
haschisch online kaufen
gras im internet bestellen
online weed kaufen
cannabis im internet kaufen
gras im internet kaufen
gras kaufen online
gras droge kaufen
gras shop
gras im internet bestellt
marihuana legal kaufen
dope kaufen
ganja bestellen
gras bekommen
haschisch kaufen im internet
haschkekse online bestellen
legal marihuana kaufen
online coffeeshop
tetrahydrocannabinol kaufen
hanf kaufen
gutes grass
woher bekomme ich gra
haschisch kaufen online shop
hasch kaufen berlin
haschkekse in deutschland kaufen
smokerland erfahrungen
weed online kaufen erfahrungen
wie gras kaufen
wo bekomme ich gras
wo bekommt man gras her
wo kriege ich gras her
wo kriegt man gras her
cannabis legal erwerben
cbd joints kaufen
gras hamburg kaufen
gras berlin kaufen
gras kaufen köln
gras kaufen hamburg
hamburg gras kaufen
hamburg weed kaufen
woher bekommt man grasUnkraut online kaufen München
Gras online kaufen köln
Gras online kaufen Frankfurt am Main
Gras online kaufen Stuttgart
Gras kaufen in Düsseldorf
Gras online kaufen Leipzig
Gras kufen in Essen
Gras kaufen in Dresde
Gras kaufen in Essen
Gras kaufen in nuremberg
Gras kaufen in Breme
Gras kaufen in heidelberg
Gras kaufen in Bonn
Gras kaufen in Hanovre Unkraut
Gras kaufen in lubeck
Gras kaufen in Dortmund
Gras kaufen in Potsdam
Marihuana online kaufen in rostock
Gras zum Verkauf in Lübeck
Gras zum Verkauf in postdam
Gras zum Verkauf in ratisbonne
Gras zu verkaufen in dortmund
Gras zu verkaufen in mayence
Gras zu verkaufen in Wiesbaden
Marihuana online kaufen Mannheim
Marihuana online kaufen magdebourg
Marihuana online kaufen bielefeld
Marihuana online kaufen ulm
Marihuana online kaufen bochum
Marihuana online kaufen halle
Cannabis-Läden in berlin
Cannabis-Läden in wuppertal
Cannabis-Läden in erlangen
Cannabis-Läden in brunswick
Cannabis-Läden in sarrebruck
Cannabis-Läden in frefeld
Cannabis-Läden in kiel
Cannabis-Läden in schwerin
Cannabis-Läden in lena

info@unkrautverkaufer.com
kontakt whatsapp: +4915211384193
https://unkrautverkaufer.com/


ADDRESSE
BOXHAGENER STR 40, 22049 DULSBERG HAMBURG
PHONE : +4915211384193
 

---

Posted by initer (Member # 23559) on :
 
CBD HANF ONLINE KAUFEN IN DEUTSCHLAND

CBD Hanfblüten kaufen. Kaufen Sie Hanfblüten in Deutschland
bulk und Einzelhandel. Kaufen Sie Großhandel CBD Hanfblüten
in Deutschland und Europa. Wir haben Premium hohe CBD Hanfblüten
unter 0,2% THC Labor getestet.
Kaufen Sie Bio-Hanf Schweiz und Österreich.
Wir verkaufen nur Top-Qualität und Premium EU-zertifizierte
und zugelassene Stämme mit hohem CBD. CBD Blume Shop in Deutschland.
Kaufen Sie CBD Blume online mit Express-Lieferung.

Email us: info@cbdhempestate.com
WhatsApp: +49 15163248712
https://cbdhempestate.com/
https://cbdhempestate.com/shop/

cbd Hanfblüten online kaufen Deutschland
Großhandel cbd Blumen Schweiz
cbd blumen Cardiff
Großhandel cbd Europa
Ist cbd bei einem Drogentest nachweisbar?
cbd hanf blume
cbd hanf berlin
cbd blumen großhandel europa
hoch cbd Hanf Blumen in Deutschland
cbd Blume in meiner Nähe
cbd großhandel Österreich
großhandel cbd blumen Schweiz
cbd blumen Luxemburg
cbd öl Deutschland
Merinowolle
Legaler Hanfshop Deutschland
cbd blumen online kaufen
cbd blumen großhandel Italien
CBD Hanfblüten Knospen
Hanf Blume Lieferung in der Deutschland
Großhandel cbd Hanf Blume
hohe CBD Hanfblüten
Hanf Kief
hochwirksame CBD Tinkturen und Salben
cbd hanf laden
premium hanföl cbd extrakt
cbd online hanfblüte
legales hanf cbd
billigste cbd hanf blume online
cbd hanföl vorteile
Premium-Hanf
billig kaufen cbd Blume online
CBD-Großhandel Lieferanten
CBD Hanf kaufen in Deutschland
Großhandel CBD Hanf Blumen
CBD Deutschland kaufen

https://cbdhempestate.com/
 

---

Posted by initer (Member # 23559) on :
 
ORDER WEED ONLINE, BUY WEED ONLINE, ORDER CANNABIS ONLINE, BUY CANNABIS ONLINE USA, UK, EU

Order weed online usa

Smokebestplug is the solution to Order weed online USA without
a medical card conveniently with a 100% Money Back Guarantee.
Smokebestplug a Fast – Discrete and reliable weed supplier emphasizes on
providing safe access to 420 mail order online, Order weed online USA,
Buy Marijuana Online –. SMOKEBESTPLUG Store is a legit and Reliable
online marijuana dispensary created to ship extremely high graded
cannabis with high THC around the world. As an online dispensary shipping worldwide,
Marijuana for sale, weed for sale online, buy weed online in USA.
We Ship with Assurance to All 50 USA States and Worldwide when you order marijuana online from us.

https://smokebestplug.com/

Order weed online USA
https://smokebestplug.com/
For more details contact us at:
Contact us on Text, WhatsApp or call
USA: +17202487228
EUROPE, UK: +31657792266
Email us: contact@smokebestplug.com

http://smokebestplug.com/product/order cannabis online The Best Cannabis Store for Mail Order Marijuana/
https://www.weeds-4all.com/
https://cannabisbudeurope.com/
http://smokebestplug.com/product/white-widow-2/
https://smokebestplug.com/product-category/indica/
https://smokebestplug.com/product/budnaked/
https://smokebestplug.com/product-category/sativa/
https://smokebestplug.com/product/coastal-hitz/

online dispensaries that ship
best online dispensary USA shipping
online marijuana dispensary home delivery
buy cannabis edibles online nationwide
online weed delivery California
mail order marijuana edibles online
Colorado marijuana dispensaries that ship
buy weed online
marijuana dispensaries that ship nationwide
mail order marijuana edibles online
cannabis delivery near me
online marijuana delivery nationwide
online dispensary mail order cheap
marijuana dispensary that ships everywhere
mail order dispensaries in USA
online dispensaries that ship anywhere in USA
mail order marijuana edibles online
best online dispensary USA shipping
best online marijuana dispensary
Colorado dispensaries that ship
buy cannabis edibles online nationwide
online dispensaries that ship
marijuana dispensary that ships everywhere
mail order cannabis from Colorado
Colorado mail order marijuana stores
marijuana dispensaries that ship nationwide
can you order marijuana online?
Colorado marijuana dispensaries that ship
marijuana dispensary that ships everywhere
mail order marijuana edibles online
can you order medical marijuana online?
mail order marijuana united states
California wholesale cannabis prices
mail order marijuana edibles online
Colorado marijuana for sale online
Colorado marijuana dispensaries that ship
marijuana dispensaries that ship nationwide
marijuana for sale by mail order Colorado
marijuana online store free shipping
marijuana online shopping
buy cannabis by post uk
buy legal cannabis in uk
buy hash online Amsterdam
buy hash uk delivery
buy hash online USA
best websites to buy weed
buy cannabis online uk delivery
buy weed online uk
marijuana online store free shipping
buying marijuana edibles online legal
buy marijuana online USA cheap
best online marijuana store
order marijuana online from Colorado
buying marijuana online legal
real weed for sale online
online weed delivery
cheap marijuana online
cheap marijuana online sales
cheap marijuana seeds USA
buy legal weed online cheap
marijuana for sale online
best online marijuana store
cheap marijuana stocks
weed online cheap
cheap weed Canada
cheap weed dispensary
reddit cheapest weed online
cheap bud Canada
cheap weed ca
cheap buds ca
cheap bud
where to get weed wholesale
wholesale weed USA
cheap wholesale weed
wholesale weed products
wholesale marijuana for sale
buy wholesale weed online
wholesale marijuana
wholesale weed prices
buy medical cannabis online
can i buy cannabis online
cannabis online store
USA cannabis seeds shop
cannabis seeds sold in USA
best place to buy cannabis seeds online
is buying cannabis online legal
cannabis seeds for sale online
best marijuana seeds by mail
best cannabis seed company
best cannabis seed banks
best online seed store
best online cannabis seed store
most trusted cannabis seed banks
best seed bank uk
best seed banks
best online marijuana store USA
Colorado marijuana dispensaries that ship
best online cannabis seed store
best online dispensary USA shipping
order weed online
marijuana online shopping
online cannabis store worldwide
best online marijuana dispensary
best online dispensary USA shipping
Colorado marijuana dispensaries that ship
buying marijuana online legal
marijuana online shopping
real marijuana for sale online
mail order marijuana united states
online marijuana sales

http://smokebestplug.com/product/coastal-hitz/
http://smokebestplug.com/product/moon-rock/
http://smokebestplug.com/product/blue-dream/

weed dealers near me
weed for sale near me
how to find weed dealers near me
weed plugs near me
get free weed online
how to find a weed dealer
where to get weed wholesale
how can i get weed
how to order marijuana online
where can i get weed
get free weed online
how to get weed free
illegal weed online
where to get weed
weed plugs near me
weed for sale near me
closest dispensary to my location
find a weed dealer online
recreational marijuana dispensaries near me
marijuana dealers online
cannabis dispensaries near me
order weed online
step by step growing weed from seed
free weed online
mail order marijuana united states
online dispensary cannabis that ship
how to order cannabis online
can you order marijuana online
order weed online
marijuana for sale online
cheap marijuana online
how to get weed online
buying marijuana online legally
can marijuana be purchased online
cheap marijuana online
mail order marijuana united states
marijuana for sale online
how to order marijuana online
cheap marijuana for sale online
real marijuana for sale online
online dispensaries that ship
california marijuana for sale online
wholesale marijuana for sale
marijuana for sale near me
how to find weed dealers near me
marijuana for sale online
cheap marijuana for sale online
marijuana online store free shipping
local marijuana dispensaries near me
walk in marijuana dispensaries near me
medical marijuana dispensaries near me
closest marijuana dispensary to me
recreational marijuana dispensaries near me
best cannabis stores near me
buy cannabis near me
marijuana for sale near me
mail order marijuana united states
best online dispensary usa shipping
real marijuana for sale online
wholesale marijuana for sale
mail order marijuana usa delivery
online dispensary cannabis that ship
weed for sale near me

https://weed-supermarket.co.uk/
https://hub420.co.uk/
https://smooth-smokesuk.com/
http://darkbudmarket.com/
https://greenflowers.eu/
https://weedhuis.com/
https://diligentplug.com/
https://greenflowers.eu/

Erba
Cannabas
Hennep
Kenevir
Konopi
Konoplje
konopia indyjskie
κάνναβης
kannabisz
kannabis
kaņepes
kanapes
канабис
cainb
kannabista
ostaa rikkaruohoa verkossa
Unkraut online kaufen
Cannabis online kaufen
Comprar cànnabis in línia
Comprar cannabis online
osta kanepit internetist
ostaa kannabista verkossa
prynu canabis ar-lein
osta umbrohtu veebis
Comprar hierba en línea
køb ukrudt online
kupi travu putem interneta
Comprar males grasses en línia
купувайте трева онла

We have made order weed online USA to be a very easy and simple,
fast and discrete process for everyone to Buy marijuana online.
We have successfully shipped thousands of weed for sale online
orders around the world using extreme stealth, regardless of your
country or state’s laws to buy marijuana online from dispensaries
shipping worldwide. We offer reliable payment methods and we safeguard your packages,
and your privacy is our main priority.

Smokebestplug is the solution to Order weed online USA without a medical card
conveniently with a 100% Money Back Guarantee. Smokebestplug a Fast – Discrete and
reliable weed supplier emphasizes on providing safe access to 420 mail order online,
Order weed online USA, Buy Marijuana Online –. SMOKEBESTPLUG Store is a legit and
Reliable online marijuana dispensary created to ship extremely high graded cannabis
with high THC around the world. As an online dispensary shipping worldwide,
Marijuana for sale, weed for sale online, buy weed online in USA. We Ship with
Assurance to All 50 USA States and Worldwide when you order marijuana online from us.

Online Dispensary Shipping with Assurance to All 50 USA States and Worldwide!
The human body is a made of organs which need better cure with organic natural herbs.
At SMOKEBESTPLUG, Buy Weed USA, Buy Marijuana online, a legit dispensary shipping worldwide.
We make it easy so our customers who can buy marijuana online, buy weed online
USA Or weed for Sale New York and have it mailed to their doorsteps. Medical marijuana for sale
Smokebestplug is the solution to Order weed online without a medical card conveniently with a 100%
Money Back Guarantee. Smokebestplug a reliable weed supplier emphasizes on providing safe access to
420 mail order online, Buy THC Online Us, Mambaz, Mambaz Strain, medical and recreational cannabis
brought to your doorstep in the most discreet manner possible.
Customers can order weed online USA, UK,
and EUROPE and enjoy our collection of mail order weed USA.
Purple haze near me, Moonrocks pre roll, Moon rock joint,
Moonrock pre rolled blunt, Pre rolled backwoods

Established in 2010 in Denver CO and Amsterdam in the Netherlands,
Order weed online and buy weed online safely from the best sellers of MMJ strains.
Worldwide free shipping all safe. Order weed online Wisconsin, buy cannabis online Virginia,
and order cannabis online Europe and USA from our online dispensary USA, UK and Europe.
Order cannabis online South Carolina. Order weed online London, Order weed online Czech Republic,
Order weed online Poland, Order weed online Germany, Order weed online France.
We are a USA and EUROPE based Weed Company where you can order weed online.
We provide the best premium quality Buds, oils, accessories and Hash available in the USA, EU, UK.
Free Shipping on All Orders, Same Day Dispatch If Ordered before 4pm.
We give more value in building our supplier-customer relationship.
100% satisfaction to all our customers who buy weed online.
As an online cannabis dispensary,
SMOKEBESTPLUG aims to deliver high-quality marijuana to all its customers who order weed online from our legal
weed online dispensary that ship worldwide.

Established in 2010 in Denver CO and Amsterdam in the Netherlands,
Order weed online and buy weed online safely from the best sellers of MMJ strains.
Worldwide free shipping all safe. Order weed online Wisconsin, buy cannabis online Virginia,
and order cannabis online Europe and USA from our online dispensary USA, UK and Europe.
Order cannabis online South Carolina. Order weed online London, Order weed online Czech Republic,
Order weed online Poland, Order weed online Germany, Order weed online France.

Order marijuana online,
Buy marijuana online, and cannabis products online from us
discreetly with a 100% Money Back Guarantee. We are the best weed shop in Amsterdam.
A marijuana dispensary in Venlo, with facilities and networks set up for mail order
marijuana services in Europe and uk. Our main goal is to help make the
buy weed online from Amsterdam process as easy as possible irrespective of your location.
We understand that Marijuana is not entirely legal in many countries,
hence we have a special team in charge of 100% discreet packaging.
This is to ensure orders arrive at their destination without any problem
as always when you buy cheap weed from uk and Europe.

Welcome words
Hello sir/Ma'am,
Welcome to Smokebestplug and thanks for shopping with us.
We promise to get you the best of our products at very good prices.
Discounts available too. We hope to hear from you again.
Thanks
Best regards.

forums
https://www.99techpost.com/high-da-dofollow-free-forum-posting-sites-list/
cryptoexperticonminers:forums

emails

agips237@gmail.com

smithjshop@gmail.com
larrywillplug@gmail.com
raywalkershop@gmail.com


LAB TESTS CBD ISOLATES: https://www.extractlabs.com/resources/quality-control/
order weed online, order weed online USA, order weed online California, order weed online with credit card,
order weed online dc, order weed, order weed online uk, order weed online Canada, order weed online Boston,
order weed online Seattle, order weed online New York city, ordering weed online, how to order weed online,
weed order online, where can i order weed online, buy weed online, weed online, buying weed online,
how to buy weed online, can you buy weed online, where to buy weed online, online weed, can i buy weed online,
buy weed online California, weed order, ……Mail order weed, how to get weed online, weed online California,
buy weed online usa, weed online shop, best place to buy weed online, weed online store, weed store online,
weed for sale online, weed buy online, cheap weed online, sell weed online, weed online no medical card,
buy my weed online, weed online for sale, is it safe to buy weed online, order weed online fort Collins,
legal weed online, buy weed online uk, online dispensary, weed shop ,ordering marijuana online,
ordering pot online, where to buy weed, how to buy weed, can you buy thc online, marijuana for sale online,
weed delivery near me, cannabis buy online, thc vape juice discreet shipping,
order marijuana online, mail order marijuana online
order weed online Atlanta, order weed online mass, order weed online cheap, order weed online gram up,
order weed online delivery, order weed online legally, order weed online from California,
order weed online Massachusetts, order weed online new Mexico, order weed online Spokane wa,
order weed online las Vegas, order weed online Michigan, order weed online Oakland, order weed online Ontario,
order weed online next day delivery, buy cannabis online, buying marijuana online, order thc online,
buy thc online, marijuana online, order cannabis online, eaze, buy weed, online marijuana,
can dispensaries ship out of state, cannabis online, buy marijuana, weed delivery, buy marijuana online,
ease, online cannabis , Order cannabis online, Order cannabis online USA, Order cannabis online Alabama,
Order cannabis online Virginia, Order cannabis online Kentucky, Order cannabis online Nevada,
Order cannabis online New York, Order cannabis online Wisconsin, Order cannabis online Florida,
Order cannabis online Oklahoma, Order cannabis online North Dakota, Order cannabis online South Dakota,
Order weed online Oklahoma, Order weed online Kentucky, Buy weed online North Dakota,
Order cannabis online North Dakota, Buy weed online Nevada, Buy cannabis online ,
Buy cannabis online California, Buy cannabis online Texas, Buy cannabis online Indiana,
Order cannabis online North Carolina, Online dispensary cannabis, Online cannabis dispensary New York,
Weed delivery Louisiana, Weed delivery Kentucky, Weed delivery Texas, Weed delivery South Carolina,
Weed delivery North Carolina, Weed delivery South Carolina, Marijuana for sale weed delivery ,
Best online weed store USA, Cannabis online store that ships, Best cheap online weed, Indoor weed
Are you looking for a regular, reliable weed supplier? SMOKEBESTPLUG store is at your
service! Order weed online. We offer weed for Sale and all related products at affordable prices.
We have a very reliable and secured payment process as well as a discrete and fast delivery service
within the USA and any other art of the world.
We give more value to building our supplier-customer relationship.
100% satisfaction to all our customers who buy weed online. As an online cannabis dispensary,
SMOKEBESTPLUG aims to deliver high-quality marijuana to all its customers who order weed online
from our legal weed online dispensary that ship.
lnkague@gmail.com
Wir sind ein in Deutschland ansässiger Weed-Shop, in dem Sie online unkrautn können.
Wir bieten die besten Premium-Qualität Buds, Öle, Zubehör und Hash in Deutschland erhältlich,
Same Day Dispatch Wenn vor 17 Uhr bestellt und Sie erhalten Ihre Bestellung am nächsten Tag.
Wir geben mehr Wert beim Aufbau unserer Lieferanten-Kunden-Beziehung.100% Zufriedenheit für alle unsere Kunden,
die Marihuana online Deutschland kaufen.
N/A
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YsyDsK0E9Q

skip to 57:00 for historical analysis

Many sources here, earlier than Tazarah's source, contradicting his claims
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
N/A
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Oh and how could I forget... Here is a screenshot of @the lioness lying and saying that a source I shared was saying the black portuguese Jews were the result of intermarriage when the source LITERALLY SAYS they did not intermarry with the natives. He/she/it tried to use the context of a completely different part of the page to make the part I was dealing with contradict itself.



Here is a link to the thread in question:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=000431;p=17
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
N/A
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
[QB] [b] and as long as there are sources to support what I say... then there is no contradiction,

---

that's the problem, you don't know or understand what "contradiction" means
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
and you do? I have a screenshot of you demonstrating your dishonesty and the poorest reading comprehension skills possible, in case you haven't noticed. And it's clear that whenever you have problems refuting anything I say, you run to see what lying garfield and his lying little buddies are saying. LOL
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Oh and how could I forget... Here is a screenshot of @the lioness lying and saying that a source I shared was saying the black portuguese Jews were the result of intermarriage when the source LITERALLY SAYS they did not intermarry with the natives. He/she/it tried to use the context of a completely different part of the page to make the part I was dealing with contradict itself.



Here is a link to the thread in question:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=000431;p=17

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Taz are you Portuguese ?

I think you should start you're own BHI click, 12 Tribes chart with Portuguese at the top

>> I'm not charging for this...

I dare you, put your money where your mouth is, go out and represent Portuguese, not just history lessons

If you are serious about this let's see you REALLY represent Black Portuguese

It's the new new BP

put up or shut up get a new garment , get a logo and get out on the streets rep these BP !!!

I dare your ass
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
N/A
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Oh and how could I forget... Here is a screenshot of @the lioness lying and saying that a source I shared was saying the black portuguese Jews were the result of intermarriage when the source LITERALLY SAYS they did not intermarry with the natives. He/she/it tried to use the context of a completely different part of the page to make the part I was dealing with contradict itself.



Here is a link to the thread in question:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=000431;p=17

---

---

 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Garfield Reid is an agent
Bought and paid for just like his views that he pays for on Youtube


A long study of African American history will teach you how to spot an agent...


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YsyDsK0E9Q

skip to 57:00 for historical analysis

Many sources here, earlier than Tazarah's source, contradicting his claims

---

Many sources here, old white men books, earlier than Taz's old white men books

> and condtraciting his cliams
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
N/A
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Oh and how could I forget... Here is a screenshot of @the lioness lying and saying that a source I shared was saying the black portuguese Jews were the result of intermarriage when the source LITERALLY SAYS they did not intermarry with the natives. He/she/it tried to use the context of a completely different part of the page to make the part I was dealing with contradict itself.



Here is a link to the thread in question:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=000431;p=17

---

---

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
N/A
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
Garfield Reid is an agent
Bought and paid for just like his views that he pays for on Youtube


A long study of African American history will teach you how to spot an agent...

---

LOL! You noticed he pays for his views and likes too. I called him out for that on facebook a couple of months back. Seems as though I'm not the only one who noticed LOL

---

He is pathetic
His book is not selling and he does not know how to attract people to his channel

His view is not popular... people sense the crab in the barrel mentality


Also, he hates black Americans
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
It's a weird thing because he set out with a premise that the Hebrew Israelites are pseudo

but the evidence is against him... so now he is firmly pseudo trying to deny that there where hebrews and jews among the slaves taken during the Maafa


If you fairly look at the evidence there is no other conclusion one can come too


that is a testament to the ENORMITY of the crime that was the slave trade... it was indiscriminate

Moors, Turegs, Fula, Yoruba, Nupe, Ewe, Akan, Igbo, Mande, Mandinke, Sonninke, Shuwa, Kanuri, Bakongo, Angola, Black people from the streets of London, Portugal and Spain...and black people from the east coast Africa


over 400 years ...
 

---

Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YsyDsK0E9Q

skip to 57:00 for historical analysis

Many sources here, earlier than Tazarah's source, contradicting his claims

---

Many sources here, old white men books, earlier than Taz's old white men books

> and condtraciting his cliams

---

Interesting video.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@Yatunde Lisa

I agree 100%! And yes, the evidence is always against them. It's so obvious they are triggered and want to make excuses to hide the truth.

Do you know if lioness is a black american or descendant of slaves?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Taz, 93 smashed you today

I'm sorry but you will have to take this L

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YsyDsK0E9Q


He has more sources and older one, refuting your spurious claims.

see this

L

"it's yours"
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
[https://youtu.be/3UFWrH5iZAY]



 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Oh and how could I forget... Here is a screenshot of @the lioness lying and saying that a source I shared was saying the black portuguese Jews were the result of intermarriage when the source LITERALLY SAYS they did not intermarry with the natives. He/she/it tried to use the context of a completely different part of the page to make the part I was dealing with contradict itself.



Here is a link to the thread in question:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=000431;p=17

---

---

---

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
N/A
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


A)
https://archive.org/details/jewsastudyracea00fishgoog/page/n156/mode/2up?q=Portuguese+&view=theater
_________________________

B)
https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Calcutta_Review.html?id=FlcnAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_entity#v=onepage&q&f=false
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
RED HERRING, the calcutta review does not say the black portuguese Jews looked like cochin indians.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
This debunks literally all of the pseudo arguments made by the delusional eurocentrics in this thread

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Firsthand historical account from 1880 stating that caucasian jewish people in Israel were imported from Germany, and that the native Jews of Israel looked like the black slaves in america.



"Memorials of Gilbert Haven, Bishop of the Methodist Episcopal Church" page 340 (1880) University of Michigan

https://books.google.com/books/about/Memorials_of_Gilbert_Haven_Bishop_of_the.html?id=Uls3AAAAMAAJ

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


A)
https://archive.org/details/jewsastudyracea00fishgoog/page/n156/mode/2up?q=Portuguese+&view=theater
_________________________

B)
https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Calcutta_Review.html?id=FlcnAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_entity#v=onepage&q&f=false

---

.


.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
RED HERRING, the calcutta review does not say the black portuguese Jews looked like cochin indians.

---

In your opinion were there and are there a community of Jews in Cochin in India

or do you consider none of them to be Jews?
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Yes, but the black cochin Jews and the black portuguese Jews were two completely different groups of black Jews who did not look the same or have the same ancestry. The black cochin Jews had been mixing and intermarrying with the native indians for centuries, while the black portuguese Jews did not intermarry with outsiders.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
N/A
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Yes, but the black cochin Jews and the black portuguese Jews were two completely different groups of black Jews who did not look the same or have the same ancestry. The black cochin Jews had been mixing and intermarrying with the native indians for centuries, while the black portuguese Jews did not intermarry with outsiders.

---

are you sure you didn't type something here you didn't intend accidentally ?
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Yes, but the black cochin Jews and the black portuguese Jews were two completely different groups of black Jews who did not look the same or have the same ancestry. The black cochin Jews had been mixing and intermarrying with the native indians for centuries, while the black portuguese Jews did not intermarry with outsiders.

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:




"The Calcutta Review, Volume 5" published by University of Calcutta, page 289 (1846)

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Calcutta_Review.html?id=FlcnAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_entity

---

---

QUOTE:
The Jews of Portugal and of Cochin are very black, though they do not intermarry with natives

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
The black cochin Jews had been mixing and intermarrying with the native indians for centuries

---

The book does not say black cochin Jews had been mixing and intermarrying with the native indians for centuries
where are you getting that from?
We are talking about what it says on the above page

This is what you want to say:

The Jews of Portugal and of Cochin are very black, though the former do not intermarry with natives

but it does not say "the former"
nor does it mean that by grammar or implication

The subject of the sentence is
The Jews of Portugal and of Cochin,
things they both have in common

everything that follows applies to both then unless something like "the former" is added to separate them.

OR if it were said like this

"The Jews of Portugal and of Cochin are very black, though the Jews of Portugal do not intermarry with natives"

The first part of that talks about commonalities, thus all following descriptions will be what they have in common, unless, as in this example "Jews of Portugal" is restated but without the Cochin

However that is not what was said

Regardless you are saying "The black cochin Jews had been mixing and intermarrying with the native indians for centuries"

but the book doesn't say that

it says Jews

of Portugal and Cochin

are both black and do not intermarry with natives
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

You are pseudo, and clearly know nothing about the topic of the black cochin Jews of india.



"The Works of the Rev. Claudius Buchanan, L. L. D.:" by Claudius Buchanan, page 136-137 (1812) Whiting & Watson

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Works_of_the_Rev_Claudius_Buchanan_L.html?id=X3Q3AAAAMAAJ
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
The calcutta review was obviously speaking about the CURRENT poplulations of black portuguese and black cochin jews in india not intermarrying with natives. But prior to that time, the black cochin Jews had been known to intermarry with the native indians.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:




@the lioness

Can you read? Like, seriously. This is getting sad. You're trying so hard to push your false narrative that you are reading things into the source when it's very clear in what it says.

Read it SLOWLY... okay??

"...many Arabs of pure blood in the middle of Africa
are as black as negroes--the Jews of Portugal and of Cochin
are very black, THOUGH THEY DO NOT INTERMARRY WITH THE NATIVES."

Your reading/comprehension is extremely poor. The parts you highlighted are speaking about regular portuguese men coming and mixing with natives, it says nothing about the PORTUGUESE JEWS mixing with the natives -- it says the EXACT OPPOSITE, LITERALLY -- that the portuguese Jews were VERY BLACK, and DID NOT MIX WITH THE NATIVES.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
The calcutta review was obviously speaking about the CURRENT poplulations of black portuguese and black cochin jews in india not intermarrying with natives.

---

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
The calcutta review was obviously speaking about the CURRENT poplulations of black portuguese and black cochin jews in india not intermarrying with natives. But prior to that time, the black cochin Jews had been known to intermarry with the native indians.

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:




https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Works_of_the_Rev_Claudius_Buchanan_L.html?id=X3Q3AAAAMAAJ [/b]

---

What country did these white Jews in Cochin come from and what was the approximate time period?
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
The star may have become a Jewish logo when Charles IV in 1354 commanded the Jews of Prague to use a red flag with the 6- and 5-pointed stars.

https://www.oztorah.com/2010/02/solomons-seal/


Synagogue in Capernum, Israel...




The ancient synagogue has two inscriptions, one in Greek and the other in Aramaic, that commemorate the benefactors that helped in the construction of the building.[4] There are also carvings of five- and six-pointed stars and of palm trees.


The red background on the Moroccan flag represents hardiness, bravery, strength and valour, while the green represents love, joy, wisdom, peace and hope;[2][3] it also represents the color of Islam and the pentagram represents the seal of Solomon


 

---

Posted by History123 (Member # 23551) on :
 
taz the tazmanian Old Devil! LOL

I guess u stealing our Hebrew names like most of ur people, didn't work out for u, u could have chose Any name, but u chose Taz ,the Tazmanian Devil. It's Poetic asfff. GOD Didn't choose u LOL





50 YEAR OLD PEDO LOSER u'll NEVER BE BLESSED LIKE US HEBREWS ur WOMEN LOVE US LOLLLL STICK TO ur FELLOW OLD WOMEN WE DON'T WANT LMFAOOOOO
 

---

Posted by History123 (Member # 23551) on :
 
THE SMARTEST PEOPLE ARE JEWS LIKE EINSTEIN, THE BIGGEST PIMP IS THE TINDER SWINDLER yo OWN PEOPLE SAY IT IN INSTAGRAM COMMENTS LOLOLOLOL

We are BLESSED and CHOSEN and ur an old 50 year old PEDO LOLOLOLOLOL




 

---

Posted by History123 (Member # 23551) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@zaharan

Here's a firsthand account from the year 641 AD written by the arab muslims when they first arrived in Egypt to conquer it... they wrote that the Israelites, Abyssinians (Ethiopians) and the Nubians, could not be told apart from one another. Just in case you weren't aware, the latter two are black "sub-saharan" african populations. Let me guess, the arabs didn't really mean what they said and were just saying this to "insult" the Israelites?

Bahahaha... Yawn.

From an original document of the Coptic Church:

"Know that the land of Egypt, when the mussulmans entered it, was full of Christians, but divided among themselves in two sects, both as to race and religion...

...The other portion was the whole people of Egypt, who were called Qibt, and were of mixed descent; among whom one could not distinguish Copt from Abyssinian, Nubian or Israelite; and they were all Jacobites."

"A Short History of the Copts and of Their Church" by The Rev. S.C. Malan, M.A., page 72 (1873) D. Nutt

https://books.google.com/books/about/A_Short_History_of_the_Copts_and_of_Thei.html?id=ybXUAAAAMAAJ

---

Nubians at that time weren't Negroid they were mixed asf earlier sources say it, n Ethiopians are mixed since ancient times dont look Bantu/

It said those ppl called "Qibt were WHITE COPTICS. The SAME people bantucentrics call Greek invaders cuz they are White skinned LOLOLOL It says they were a SPECIFIC PEOPLE WHO WERE MIXED ASFFF AND SAID THEY MIXED WITH WHITE COPTICS LOLLLLL

"An account of how the Christians from among the Qibt of Misr [the Copts of Egypt] came under the yoke of mussulmans" PAGE 72

COPTS are WHITE it said Nubians and Ethiopians who were already mixed at that time and everyone knows look NOTHING like Bantu west African Negroids, all looked like WHITE COPTIC people LOL

Fail Thread.


u're AN OLD FAKE HEBREW u're SO MAD LOLOLOLOL






PS ur WOMEN LOVE US LOL
 

---

Posted by History123 (Member # 23551) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:




@the lioness

Can you read? Like, seriously. This is getting sad. You're trying so hard to push your false narrative that you are reading things into the source when it's very clear in what it says.

Read it SLOWLY... okay??

"...many Arabs of pure blood in the middle of Africa
are as black as negroes--the Jews of Portugal and of Cochin
are very black, THOUGH THEY DO NOT INTERMARRY WITH THE NATIVES."

Your reading/comprehension is extremely poor. The parts you highlighted are speaking about regular portuguese men coming and mixing with natives, it says nothing about the PORTUGUESE JEWS mixing with the natives -- it says the EXACT OPPOSITE, LITERALLY -- that the portuguese Jews were VERY BLACK, and DID NOT MIX WITH THE NATIVES.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
The calcutta review was obviously speaking about the CURRENT poplulations of black portuguese and black cochin jews in india not intermarrying with natives.

---

---

LOLL NICE JOB READ MY COMMENT ABOVE he LITERALLLY GOT SCHOOLED AND SPIRTUALLY SLAUGHTERED AGAIN IM NOT EVEN KIDDING u CANT MAKE THIS UP

I THINK he IS LEGIT LOW IQ AND DEMONIZED he HAS TO BE he GOT BEAT SO BAD LOLLLL LITERALLY WTF LOLLOLOL INFIERORITY COMPLEX

This is fun
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
* Firsthand eyewitness historical account from 1880 stating that caucasian jewish people in Israel were imported from Germany, and that the native Jews of Israel looked like the black slaves in america.



"Memorials of Gilbert Haven, Bishop of the Methodist Episcopal Church" page 340 (1880) University of Michigan

https://books.google.com/books/about/Memorials_of_Gilbert_Haven_Bishop_of_the.html?id=Uls3AAAAMAAJ




* The inhabitants of Jericho (West Bank, Israel) are negroes with black woolly hair.



"The Scattered Nation and Jewish Christian Magazine" by Carl Schwartz, page 214 (1867) University of Michigan

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Scattered_Nation_and_Jewish_Christia/n9_NAAAAMAAJ




* 300 Negro Hebrews Came to New York From Jerusalem and Only Knew How to Speak Hebrew (1898)



"The Morning News" October 07, 1898, Page 7, Image 7

https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn86063034/1898-10-07/ed-1/seq-7/
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Taz, how many times did you post that, 20 or was it 30?

Question:
What country did the white Jews in Cochin come from and what was the approximate time period?
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Why don't you ever complain about the nazi eurotrenric posters and their behavior?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Stop being a baby you big spammer, I don't moderate here

Question:
What country did the white Jews in Cochin come from and what was the approximate time period?
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
If you don't moderate here then why are you complaining about me spamming, but don't complain about the nazi eurocentric spammers who post racist anti-black rhetoric?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
If you don't moderate here then why are you complaining about me spamming, but don't complain about the nazi eurocentric spammers who post racist anti-black rhetoric?

---

because you are similar to A Nazi
and karma is serving you. You want genocide and to enslave people

Afrocentrics and Eurocentrics are free to express themselves
but in the forum where I moderate if people are breaking the rules by racist disparaging of groups, many have been banned by my input
And threads of that type have disappeared as soon as they are seen, people may not have even seen them go with the quickness
And there are also threads where I have warned people and the warnings are still there

You abuse the format with your repetitious spamming so I have no sympathy when people do it to you
and I don't have to. I don't moderate here
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Can you quote me saying or posting anything racist or derogatory about white people or any other race of people?

Don't worry... I'll wait.

And if you can't, then that means you are a liar who is making inaccurate excuses for racist eurocentric nazis because you too feel the same way that they do about black people.

P.S., I'm not even the one who started the spamming. It was antalas/archeotypery.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:


P.S., I'm not even the one who started the spamming. It was antalas/archeotypery.

---

No it was you long before they even came in the thread, posting the same graphic over and over again

and you are trying to promote a genocidal, enslaving wicked theology.
I already exposed you on that

and you are bringing up Nazism, where is a quote of someone talking about Nazism ?

This thread is useless. You don't dialogue you just endlessly propagandize the same thing over and over again.

I have never seen a poster in 10 years who is as repetitious as you
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
So you can't quote me saying anything racist or derogatory toward a specific racial group like how history123 and antalas/archeotypery both have, correct?

You can't, yet you make excuses for them.

Then you lie and try to make a false appeal to emotion by saying this, which demonstrates your complete lack of Biblical knowledge:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
and you are trying to promote a genocidal, enslaving wicked theology.

---

* GOD says genocide is going to happen. Is GOD wicked?

OBADIAH 1:18

"18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it."

* GOD says slavery is going to happen, is GOD wicked?

AMOS 9:11-12

"11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this."

ISAIAH 60:11-12

"11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted."

ISAIAH 14:1-2

"1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors."


 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
you are pseudo, and you are useless, always with the same disinformation and complete lack of knowledge on the topics which you discuss.

If this thread were useless then you wouldn't have spent so much time and energy trolling in it.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
you are pseudo,

---

You obviously don't know what "pseudo" means

All of the below is pseudo if you think it is anything but man made myth

in addition you racist interpretation that it pertains to the white race is also pseudo

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
* GOD says genocide is going to happen. Is GOD wicked?

OBADIAH 1:18

"18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it."

* GOD says slavery is going to happen, is GOD wicked?

AMOS 9:11-12

"11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this."

ISAIAH 60:11-12

"11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted."

ISAIAH 14:1-2

"1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors."

---

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
I know exactly what pseudo means. It is what you are.

Even if edom is not the white race, it is definitely a race of people on the earth who will be wiped out.

So is God racist?

God says slavery WILL be a thing in the coming Kingdom.

Is God wicked?

You lie and pretend people like me made all of this up but it's all right there in the Bible, word for word.

Thus, you are PSEUDO.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
All of the below is pseudo if you think this predicts actual future events beyond coincidence

________________________________
OBADIAH 1:18

"18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it."


AMOS 9:11-12

"11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this."

ISAIAH 60:11-12

"11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted."

ISAIAH 14:1-2

"1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors."
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Do you also tell that to caucasian jewish people who read the Torah/Tanakh people or only black people who say they are Israelites? You seem to only have a problem with black people claiming to be Jews. It's no wonder why you don't have anything negative to say about the nazi trolls who spew anti-black rhetoric. You're no better than they are and your constant trollish behavior proves it
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
[QB] [b] Do you also tell that to caucasian jewish people who read the Torah/Tanakh people

---

Of course, anybody who tries to tell people the bible prophesizes future events
Or people that try to use the bible to justify racism
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Where are your threads targeting non-black jewish people for their doctrinal beliefs or identity?

I don't see any. You have multiple about "black hebrew Israelites" though.

I smell.... BS.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
I made a fair thread about the history of the BHI.
It wasn't an attack but you got triggered anyway.
I was a dropping a lot of names and info about 1 West and you seemed to know nothing about it.
Also any occasional errors I usually correct, unlike you where everything is written in stone
and you take everything at face value, no understanding of context (your propagandistic polemical aims)
wake up fool, History123 posted threads in Deshret and I instantly deleted them, bam like that

However if I come across a doctrine where someone is trying to justify racism by using the bible I will be attacking their stupid doctrine

Most of the stuff you are complaining about doesn't go on in my forum because I stop it before it even gets seen by most people. At the same time I allow a certain amount of free speech for various types of centrists

You don't post in the forum I moderate in because I don't allow spamming
by spamming I mean posting a lot of large images over and over again like a retard and you do this more than I have ever seen on the site.

You have enemies now following you from other sites, don't come crying to me about it
I'm buttering my popcorn
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
I just literally showed you Biblical prophecy that says "genocide" and slavery is going to happen, according to God. Whether or not you personally believe it will happen is irrelevant -- the fact of the matter is that it is written IN the Bible. Nobody is making it up or being racist.

Lyiness claims to not be targeting black Jews/Israelites in threads on egypt search, but:



Where are your threads attacking caucasian jewish people and their beliefs? Not a single one, but as soon as I started sharing info about Jews being black you start making attack threads.

Not one single thread about caucasian jewish people or their practices though.

For example, them sucking on baby genitals and transmitting herpes to infants during "ritual" circumcision, the practice of which can be found NOWHERE in Biblical scripture.



*** Apparently, black people reading the Bible and saying we are Jews and Israelites is a much bigger issue for you.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
[QB] [b] I just literally showed you Biblical prophecy that says "genocide" and slavery is going to happen, according to God. Whether or not you personally believe it will happen is irrelevant -- the fact of the matter is that it is written IN the Bible. Nobody is making it up or being racist.

---

You have got to be kidding. Ordinary and Christians and Jews don't have a racial theory about this

But people like you think its' going to be an enslavement followed by a genocide on white people.

It's a bunch of pseudo nonsense and it means you are the pseudo

So your solution is I start talking about white Jews?
Look in the mirror

I don't see you expressing an interest in Judaism. I only see you want to be a "chosen" person who is superior

I don't believe in that "chosen" garbage whether it's coming from black or white people

A person is blessed their deeds
not this stupid pseudo bloodline stuff and Esau, Edomite nonsense
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
You are pseudo because you are lying and saying the Bible does not foretell genocide and slavery.

REGARDLESS of whether or not you think it will happen, does Obadiah 1:18 foretell the genocide of a group of people? And does Isaiah 14:1-2, Isaiah 60:11-12 and Amos 9:11-12 say that there will be a time in the future Kingdom where the other nations will be servants to Israel? Yes or no

It appears that you don't even know anything about the Bible or what it says regarding Jews/Israelites, you just want to attack black people who say we are Jews/Israelites. This much is evident.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
You are pseudo because you are lying and saying the Bible does not foretell genocide and slavery.

REGARDLESS of whether or not you think it will happen, does Obadiah 1:18 foretell the genocide of a group of people? And does Isaiah 14:1-2, Isaiah 60:11-12 and Amos 9:11-12 say that there will be a time in the future Kingdom where the other nations will be servants to Israel? Yes or no

It appears that you don't even know anything about the Bible or what it says regarding Jews/Israelites, you just want to attack black people who say we are Jews/Israelites. This much is evident.

---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3i7LNjNgfE


Israelites United in Christ as well as other BHI who come out of Abba Bivens teach that white people are going into slavery when Jesus returns and after a certain period will be exterminated entirely
and you informed me recently that it will be done by burning

"God Is More Racist Than The White Man"
~ IUIC Washington DC
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Does Obadiah 1:18 foretell the genocide of a group of people? And does Isaiah 14:1-2, Isaiah 60:11-12 and Amos 9:11-12 say that there will be a time in the future Kingdom where the other nations will be servants to Israel?

Yes or no?

And if no, please explain what those verses mean.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Are you mad at black people because they are reading the Bible and saying they are Jews/Israelites?



 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Can you answer the question now, TROLL?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Does Obadiah 1:18 foretell the genocide of a group of people? And does Isaiah 14:1-2, Isaiah 60:11-12 and Amos 9:11-12 say that there will be a time in the future Kingdom where the other nations will be servants to Israel?

Yes or no?

And if no, please explain what those verses mean.

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Do you also get mad and behave this way when caucasian jewish people claim to be the people of this book? Or only when black people do it.


 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Can you answer the question now, TROLL?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
Does Obadiah 1:18 foretell the genocide of a group of people? And does Isaiah 14:1-2, Isaiah 60:11-12 and Amos 9:11-12 say that there will be a time in the future Kingdom where the other nations will be servants to Israel?

Yes or no?

And if no, please explain what those verses mean.

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
[URL=https://imgbox.com/nF1vLdXR]

this is nonsense and I will tell any white or black person that

"pseudo"

No I will not be answering your questions, you are wicked and irredeemable
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
So the Torah is pseudo garbage? ROFL

Sounds like you have a problem with the Bible and God then, not Israelites.

Now go tell that caucasian jew-ish nazi who has been spamming this forum the same thing that you've just told me, and go fill his posts with attacks on people from his racial group and community.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Tazarah is right...

No one attacks, white jews, Mormons, Scientologist, Wiccans, Satanists


The whole point for lioness and the nazi's is to drag and denegrate black people
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Oh yes I'm neglecting to "denigrate" all the Mormans, Wiccans etc. who post here
And don't forget all the Scientologists who post here. I need to denigrate their theirs threads also

And the funny thing is just posting their history and message, this is considered "denigrating".

Once in a while white supremacists come in and make a thread in Deshret. I disappeared them

The Hebrew Israelites who came out of Abba Bivens they are indeed hate groups, they go on the streets
and denigrate white people and black women all day long on public streets.

Any black person who wants to be a Jew is fine with me, somebody who who follows their laws and traditions
However anybody white or black person who goes out preaching they God's select people by bloodline and that God doesn't care about anybody else are wicked horrible people and need to be called out

I'm trying to discipline myself not to post anymore in Kemet or at least less
If you want to help me do that stop bringing me up

Let Kemet become a BHI propaganda forum
I'll try to stay in Deshret
but I'm not making any promises

and the comment by Archeopteryx about black people are being laughed at, no I don't like that comment
I rebuke that comment
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
It was never your job to police people's personal mythologies...

I honestly could care less about Mormans or wiccans.. to each his own
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
Yes... I am positive that the majority of people here know that Lyiness is a racist troll. Now Lyiness is trying to lump all Israelites together as a "hate group", but they had nothing to say to the eurocentric nazis who were spamming my posts the other day. Instead, Lyiness kept their focus on what they always do: black people who identify as Jews.

Lyiness just literally said any black person who wants to be a Jew must follow mainstream (european) judaism in order to not be attacked by Lyiness.

And that we can't read or talk about the scriptures in the Torah that talk about how God chose the nation of Israel above all nations.

LOL.

What a racist, pseudo psycho.


 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Spanish & Portuguese
Mughrebi
Mashreqi
Mizrahhi
Hodu
Yemeni
are all "mainstream Jews" i.e., they
adhere to Torah, Talmudh, and halakha.


When one means white Jews or Ashkenazim
one should just say so instead of only
crediting white central eastern etc
Europeans as THE mainstream.


Haredi are the only Jews I know of in these times
continuing to apply mouth for a few seconds to
suction infant circumcisal blood.

https://web.archive.org/web/20070415221929/http://www.rabbis.org/news/article.cfm?id=100605

My son's orthodox mohel used a pipette as does
K*lal Yisra'el --Jews-- who accept modern medicinal
science over nonsense no matter how once traditional.

Anybody can pick up a book and claim it's theirs
but do they have the family anecdotes or the
further commentary on a book as does the
ethnic group who authored a book?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

---

 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@Tukuler

You are correct. What I meant to say was that Lyiness expects us to adhere to ashkenazi or european judaism, as Lyiness has made it clear multiple times that he/she believes caucasian jewish people are the poster jewish people.

The caucasian/european jewish people are the ones who "decide" who is or isn't jewish.

He/she never mentions any other group outside of caucasian/european jewish people when trying to attack or refute claims that I make.

Even when I would post historical sources that spoke about BLACK portuguese Jews, Lyiness would post images of caucasian jewish people and claim they were the black portuguese Jews being spoken of.

Regardless, the practice/customs or form of "Judaism" does not determine one's lineage and it is not Lyiness's place to decide who who gets to practice what.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
the source LITERALLY SAYS they did not intermarry with the natives. He/she/it tried to use the context of a completely different part of the page to make the part I was dealing with contradict itself. [/b]



Here is a link to the thread in question:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=000431;p=17 [/qb]

---

[/qb][/QUOTE][/qb][/QUOTE] [/QB][/QUOTE]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:



"General History of Africa, Volume 5: Africa from the Sixteenth to the Eighteenth Century" by B.A. Ogot, page 134 (1992) United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization

---

In the top post you kept saying Jews in Cochin did not intermarry with natives and you posted this about 20 times

and there was also a youtube video where you are arguing with somebody standing for this

But now in another thread you are posting that Black Jews in Cochin did intermarry with natives


come on son
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
@the lioness

I've already explained this to you liar

The ANCESTORS of the black cochin jews mixed with the natives but the source referenced says they presently do not mix.

The UN source that says the ancestors of the black cochin jews mixed with natives clearly says it is talking about the 17th - 18th centuries (1600s - 1700s)

The calcutta review, which says they do not mix was written in the 19th century (1846)

DUMMY...
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
@the lioness

I've already explained this to you liar

The ANCESTORS of the black cochin jews mixed with the natives but the source referenced says they presently do not mix.

The UN source that says the ancestors of the black cochin jews mixed with natives clearly says it is talking about the 17th - 18th centuries (1600s - 1700s)

The calcutta review, which says they do not mix was written in the 19th century (1846)

DUMMY...

---

It's doesn't matter when they mixed, you got exposed
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
I didn't say they never mixed, nor did the source say they never mixed

That's you lying and trolling as always by taking info out of context because you have no life
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
If they mixed at any point in time your Calcutta mission is a fail
and you owe me an apology, rather than back peddling damage control

I noticed you realized you messed up even before this when I posted some photos of the "black" Cochin
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
The author in the calcutta review was speaking about the current population of black portuguese Jews and cochin Jews. Not their ancestors.

Keep trollin' tho it's all you're good for


 

---

Posted by Fity7 (Member # 23572) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
If they mixed at any point in time your Calcutta mission is a fail
and you owe me an apology, rather than back peddling damage control

I noticed you realized you messed up even before this when I posted some photos of the "black" Cochin

---

Nice job! 🙂
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Gem2 (Member # 23593) on :
 
As you see he's not really a man of GOD.

I enjoy exposing him like the demon he is.

taz the tazmanial devil is a disgusting racist hideous Beast monster of satan with a crooked mouth and hairline and bad aged skin reflecting his satanic soul, who's well known on reddit for being a racist antisemitic troll and pervert.


[/IMG]https://i.ibb.co/dp4f54T/8364-AEEA-6-BDD-479-C-8-CB2-C5-E6-C8025-B8-B.jpg[/IMG]










he also Chooses to post his obsessive screenshots on me to try to get back at me because internally I ruin his peace,

he uploads his screenshots on a site with obsurd amounts of pornographic images and ads, and options for online dating and porn.

Why couldn't he post them to normal sites like I and others do?

because he's a satanic demon all along and perverted satanist.


 

---

Posted by Gem2 (Member # 23593) on :
 
taz the tazmanial devil is a disgusting racist hideous Beast monster of satan with a crooked mouth and hairline and bad aged skin reflecting his satanic soul, who's well known on reddit to being a racist antisemitic troll and pervert.

he is well known on youtube and other social media platforms to being a lying fake man of GOD who's perverted and gets Debunked often for lying about sources and information.

heres an Actual video on youtube with 37 thousand views Exposing his stupid self LOL

Here's a video of him getting Debunked and Humiliated by 37k people

His misquotation of sources that he uses of old English people from Europe have been utterly Exposed.

people were clowning his mouth





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWKCeZFIyHM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWKCeZFIyHM

Here’s a photo of him asking a gay guy or girl inappropriate perverted questions about their sexual anal experiences and getting turned on by it.




Here’s a photo of this satanic demon incel asking girls/guys if an angel touched them sexually, like a complete perverted racist demon who’s Burning.












 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
a
 

---

Posted by Gem2 (Member # 23593) on :
 
taz the tazmanial devil is a disgusting racist hideous Beast monster of satan with a crooked mouth and hairline and bad aged skin reflecting his satanic soul, who's well known on reddit to being a racist antisemitic troll and pervert.

he is well known on youtube and other social media platforms to being a lying fake man of GOD who's perverted and gets Debunked often for lying about sources and information.

heres an Actual video on youtube with 37 thousand views Exposing his stupid self LOL

Here's a video of him getting Debunked and Humiliated by 37k people

His misquotation of sources that he uses of old English people from Europe have been utterly Exposed.

people were clowning his mouth





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWKCeZFIyHM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWKCeZFIyHM

Here’s a photo of him asking a gay guy or girl inappropriate perverted questions about their sexual anal experiences and getting turned on by it.




Here’s a photo of this satanic demon incel asking girls/guys if an angel touched them sexually, like a complete perverted racist demon who’s Burning.












 

---

Posted by Gem2 (Member # 23593) on :
 
As you see he's not really a man of GOD.

I enjoy exposing him like the demon he is.

taz the tazmanial devil is a disgusting racist hideous Beast monster of satan with a crooked mouth and hairline and bad aged skin reflecting his satanic soul, who's well known on reddit for being a racist antisemitic troll and pervert.


[/IMG]https://i.ibb.co/dp4f54T/8364-AEEA-6-BDD-479-C-8-CB2-C5-E6-C8025-B8-B.jpg[/IMG]










he also Chooses to post his obsessive screenshots on me to try to get back at me because internally I ruin his peace,

he uploads his screenshots on a site with obsurd amounts of pornographic images and ads, and options for online dating and porn.

Why couldn't he post them to normal sites like I and others do?

because he's a satanic demon all along and perverted satanist.


 

---

Posted by Gem2 (Member # 23593) on :
 


taz the tazmanial devil is a disgusting racist hideous Beast monster of satan with a crooked mouth and hairline and bad aged skin reflecting his satanic soul, who's well known on reddit for being a racist antisemitic troll and pervert.

he is well known on youtube and other social media platforms to being a lying fake man of GOD who's perverted and gets Debunked often for lying about sources and information.


heres an Actual video on youtube with 37 thousand views Exposing his stupid self LOL

Here's a video of him getting Debunked and Humiliated by 37k people

His misquotation of sources that he uses of old English people from Europe have been utterly Exposed.

people were clowning his mouth








https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWKCeZFIyHM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWKCeZFIyHM

Here’s a photo of him asking a gay guy or girl inappropriate perverted questions about their sexual anal experiences and getting turned on by it.




Here’s a photo of this satanic demon incel asking girls/guys if an angel touched them sexually, like a complete perverted racist demon who’s Burning.










 

---

Posted by Gem2 (Member # 23593) on :
 
taz the tazmanian devil "tazarah" gets Exposed for a Complete Lying Fraud purposely lying about sources and posting misinformation and Lies like the perverted demon he is. What a "man of GOD".

his god is satan.










The video shows CLEARLY that Portugese people just Gentile Portuguese people were called Dark. That's how Europeans spoke then LOL.

And that Portaugese Jews didn't have Flat noses but had hooked convex noses like the ancient Israelite depictions and today LOL this is SOOO BAD for him this was GOD exposing this demon and then used me to exposed him as satanic Pervert.

When these old sources he loves to twist "Negroid" Jews, what they meant clearly doesn't resemble what we today know as West Africans.

This is SOOO BADDD for him LOL

When they asked him to come up and debate Live he chickened out and ran away infront of 37k people LOL

This is another reason he is known on Reddit for being a satanic racist lying troll and pervert.

Also why Vocab Malone blocked him from his channel when he used to spam the comment section all the time and Christianity subreddits.

That's where I first met him, he would spam Vocab's channel and troll and we would always Destroy him LOL
 

---

Posted by Gem2 (Member # 23593) on :
 
Nobody takes this racist fraud Joke seriously.





 

---

Posted by Gem2 (Member # 23593) on :
 
If you really feel this way, why haven't you guys disproved us yet? Post facts instead of acting like a child.

All I ever see are black fake Hebrew Israelites getting debunked online.
 

---

(c) 2015 EgyptSearch.com

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3