Topic: Source from 1714: "Judaism was the Religion of Ancient Black [West] Africans"
Tazarah
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According to this historical reference from the year 1714, it was a well known fact amongst Europeans that "Judaism" was the religion of ancient black West Africans long before the arrival of Christianity or Islam. The source also states the fact that some of the black Jews in West Africa at that time period were there as a result of the Inquisition and expulsion of Jews that had taken place during the years prior, while others had been there since the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. ________
"So much for the Whites. We shall treat of the Blacks when we come to Guinea, Negroland, and the Cape of Good Hope, where they inhabit. Leo says, there are other Kingdoms on the S. Frontiers of this country inhabited by a rich, industrious, and just Sort of People. Judaism was the Religion of the ancient Africans for a long Time, and succeeded by Christianity; but Mohometanism prevail’d in the 208th year of the Hegyra, when all the Jews, Christians and Professors of the African Religion that could be found, were put to death; yet in Process of Time their intestine Quarrels made them neglect Mohomet’s Law, and revolt from the Caliph of Bagdat, for which they were severely punish’d by the Mohometan Caliphs, who caus’d all their Books to be burnt, on Suspicion that the knowledge of the Arts and Sciences prompted them to contemn Mohomet’s Law...
...The present Christians in Africa are partly Strangers, and partly Natives, some of them slaves to the Turks and Barbarians, and others free. Some of the Jews who inhabit both Sides the Niger derive themselves from Abraham. Others fled hither from Asia when Vespasian destroy’d Jerusalem, or from Judea when t’was wasted by the Romans, Persians, Saracens, and Christians. Some were banish’d from Italy in 1342, from Spain in 1462, from the Low Countries in 1350, from France in 1403, and from England in 1422. These all differ in Habit, and are divided into several wealthy and numerous Tribes, but have no Dominion, are despis’d of all Nations, and so abominated by the Turks that they are not admitted to be Mohometans unless first baptiz’d, and then made use of only to receive their Customs, and gather in their Taxes." ________
"For Africa: Containing What is of Most Use in Bleau, Varenius, Cellarius, Cluverius, Baudrand, Brietius, Sanson, &c. ; With The Discoveries and Improvements of the Best Modern Authors to this Time (etc.):" page 39 (1714)
posted
According to this historical reference from the year 1714, it was a well known fact amongst Europeans that "Judaism" was the religion of ancient black West Africans long before the arrival of Christianity or Islam. The source also states the fact that some of the black Jews in West Africa at that time period were there as a result of the Inquisition and expulsion of Jews that had taken place during the years prior, while others had been there since the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. ________
Most Europeans back then, as now, do not consider Judaism to be the religion of ancient black West Africans long before the arrival of Christianity or Islam. African Jews there were in West Africa, but Judaism as a significant "religion of West Africa?" Hardly..
To the contrary, almost every credible writing studying pre-colonial West Africa shows that Judaism was not significant numerically. See for example the mainstream history written by an African scholar.
African Religions & Philosophy By John S. Mbiti
or see
Black Jews in Africa and the Americas by Tudor Parfit 2013.
Do you have a credible source besides the opinion piece written by someone in 1714?
The issue is not whether there were African Jews. There were.
But whether they were, QUOTE:
the religion of ancient black West Africans long before the arrival of Christianity or Islam.
^^That claim is shaky.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Tazarah
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Member # 23365
posted
quote: Most Europeans back then, as now, do not consider Judaism to be the religion of ancient black West Africans long before the arrival of Christianity or Islam. African Jews there were in West Africa, but Judaism as a significant "religion of West Africa?" Hardly..
To the contrary, almost every credible writing studying pre-colonial West Africa shows that Judaism was not significant numerically. See for example the mainstream history written by an African scholar.
African Religions & Philosophy By John S. Mbiti
or see
Black Jews in Africa and the Americas by Tudor Parfit 2013.
Do you have a credible source besides the opinion piece written by someone in 1714?
The issue is not whether there were African Jews. There were.
But whether they were, QUOTE:
the religion of ancient black West Africans long before the arrival of Christianity or Islam.
^^That claim is shaky.
Why are you trying to use a source written by a man in the year 2013 to challenge information that was written by others in the year 1714? Are you implying that Parfitt, who was born centuries later, knows more about the people in hindsight than actual authorities who walked and talked with these people centuries ago? The source I posted is what we call a firsthand account.
For clarification, let me state that I am not making the claim that "Judaism" was the religion of the location of ancient West Africa (nor do I believe that the reference I posted is making this claim), but of the people who had ultimately ended up there.
Of course there is corroborating evidence to support this. Not only is there evidence that supports the fact that the religion of ancient West Africans was "Judaism", but there is historical evidence literally stating that the Israelites migrated directly into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem.
"History has recorded the date and cause of the Israelitish immigration into West Africa after the destruction of Jerusalem..."
"Algeria: The Topography and History" by John Reynell Morell, page 335 (1854) Nathaniel Cooke, Milford House, Strand
On top of that; Parfitt himself states in his book that according to european tradition, the Jews were always known to be black both metaphorically as well as literally.
"A long European tradition maintained that the Jews, in general, were certainly 'black' metaphorically, in the sense that they were diabolical and evil, as well as black literally."
"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 4 (2013) Harvard University Press
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: According to this historical reference from the year 1714, it was a well known fact amongst Europeans that "Judaism" was the religion of ancient black West Africans long before the arrival of Christianity or Islam. ________
" We shall treat of the Blacks when we come to Guinea, Negroland, and the Cape of Good Hope, where they inhabit. Leo says, there are other Kingdoms on the S. Frontiers of this country inhabited by a rich, industrious, and just Sort of People. Judaism was the Religion of the ancient Africans for a long Time, and succeeded by Christianity; but Mohometanism prevail’d in the 208th year of the Hegyra, when all the Jews, Christians and Professors of the African Religion that could be found, were put to death; yet in Process of Time their intestine Quarrels made them neglect Mohomet’s Law, and revolt from the Caliph of Bagdat, for which they were severely punish’d by the Mohometan Caliphs, who caus’d all their Books to be burnt, on Suspicion that the knowledge of the Arts and Sciences prompted them to contemn Mohomet’s Law...
The history and description of Africa and of the notable things therein contained by Leo, Africanus
click at left there for mention of Jews
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Tazarah
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quote: the historian Leo Africanus wrote in 1526:
"In Garura there were some very rich Jews. The intervention of the preacher (Muhammid al-Maghili) of Tlemcen set up the pillage of their goods, and most of them have been killed by the population. This event took place during the same year when the Jews had been expelled from Spain and Sicily by the Catholic King." Leo Africanus further wrote:
"The king (Askia) is a declared enemy of the Jews. He will not allow any to live in the city. If he hears it said that a Berber merchant frequents them or does business with them, he confiscates his goods."
Great information. This also proves that the Jews who Leo spoke about were black, because before even mentioning any of these populations of Jews spoken of by Leo, the author of the source I quoted from begins his thought by clearly stating:
"We shall treat of the Blacks when we come to Guinea, Negroland, and the Cape of Good Hope, where they inhabit. Leo says, there are other Kingdoms on the S. Frontiers of this country inhabited by a rich, industrious, and just Sort of People."
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: According to this historical reference from the year 1714, it was a well known fact amongst Europeans that "Judaism" was the religion of ancient black West Africans long before the arrival of Christianity or Islam. The source also states the fact that some of the black Jews in West Africa at that time period were there as a result of the Inquisition and expulsion of Jews that had taken place during the years prior, while others had been there since the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. ________
"So much for the Whites. We shall treat of the Blacks when we come to Guinea, Negroland, and the Cape of Good Hope, where they inhabit. Leo says, there are other Kingdoms on the S. Frontiers of this country inhabited by a rich, industrious, and just Sort of People. Judaism was the Religion of the ancient Africans for a long Time, and succeeded by Christianity;
Who is the author?
Are you construing this to mean Judaism was the predominant religion in West Africa prior to Islam?
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"In Garura there were some very rich Jews. The intervention of the preacher (Muhammid al-Maghili) of Tlemcen set up the pillage of their goods, and most of them have been killed by the population. This event took place during the same year when the Jews had been expelled from Spain and Sicily by the Catholic King." Leo Africanus further wrote:
"The king (Askia) is a declared enemy of the Jews. He will not allow any to live in the city. If he hears it said that a Berber merchant frequents them or does business with them, he confiscates his goods."
Great information. This also proves that the Jews who Leo spoke about were black, because before even mentioning any of these populations of Jews spoken of by Leo, the author of the source I quoted from begins his thought by clearly stating:
"We shall treat of the Blacks when we come to Guinea, Negroland, and the Cape of Good Hope, where they inhabit. Leo says, there are other Kingdoms on the S. Frontiers of this country inhabited by a rich, industrious, and just Sort of People."
No you have no proof there, first you would need an author and see if he ever set foot in Africa. Such and such printed in a book is not proof. "West Africa" is to broad. One needs to focus on a particular region or country and coordinate various sources on Jews/Hebrews there
I removed the post, this wikipedia entry Jews of Bilad el-Sudan because I can't find that quote above in Leo Africanus (although it may be in there somewhere or as some different translation)
TUAT, with the Gurara, an oasis complex stretching over 360 mi. (600 km.) in the Algerian Sahara. Tuat's center was Tamentit, "the Jewish town." Traditions reported by Arab historians fix the arrival of the first Jews as early as 5 C.E., and in large numbers in the "year of the elephant" (570), which coincided with the foundation of settlements in the oasis. Hebrew inscriptions, dating from 1329, were discovered there. The artesian wells there are attributed to the Jews who planted palm groves and built fortified villages. A responsum of R. *Isaac b. Sheshet (end of 14th century) was sent to Tuat via Honain, the important port of the Beni Zayan. The Jews were largely landowners, farmers, and warriors and lived in peace until 1437 when they were besieged for four months. They were rescued by friendly Muslims. The nomads envied their wealth. The Jewish traders from Tuat controlled the gold traffic. The preacher al-Maghili who had been expelled from Fez (end of the 15th century) incited the people to revolt against the Jews, and a new synagogue was destroyed. The high qadi ("judge") of Tuat came out in defense of the Jews. When al-Maghili ordered war against the Jews, the tribes united and there was a general massacre in 1492. The tombs of the victims are still a place of pilgrimage for the inhabitants of Tuat-Gurara. The family name Tuati (Touati, Toaty) derives from Tuat.
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Tazarah
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Who is the author? Are you construing this to mean Judaism was the predominant religion in West Africa prior to Islam?
Old historical references like that were usually composed by various different authorities on the topic who had traveled to the locations and interacted with the people.
If you read the response to somebody else that I posted above, I clarified that I wasn't trying to claim Judaism was the religion of the location of West Africa.
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Tazarah
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No you have no proof there, first you would need an author and see if he ever set foot in Africa. Such and such printed in a book is not proof. "West Africa" is to broad. One needs to focus on a particular region or country and coordinate various sources on Jews/Hebrews there
Is that the best you can do? Claim that it's all made up by somebody who never set foot in Africa? Anybody who knows about old books like these knows that a lot of the times they were compiled by various different authorities on the topic so there isn't just one specific author.
"West Africa" is not broad because the book clearly names the locations: Guinea, Negroland and the Cape of Good Hope.
Multiple other sources corroborate the information written in this one -- the fact that the descendants of the ancient Jews/Israelites were black/negro people who ended up in West Africa.
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For clarification, let me state that I am not making the claim that "Judaism" was the religion of the location of ancient West Africa (nor do I believe that the reference I posted is making this claim), but of the people who had ultimately ended up there.
Of course there is corroborating evidence to support this. Not only is there evidence that supports the fact that the religion of ancient West Africans was "Judaism", but there is historical evidence literally stating that the Israelites migrated directly into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem.
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah:
" I am not making the claim that "Judaism" was the religion of the location of ancient West Africa".....
"Not only is there evidence that supports the fact that the religion of ancient West Africans was "Judaism", but there is historical evidence"
_____________________________________
make up your mind please
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Tazarah
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Who is the author?
Read the preface... you obviously didn't look too hard for any information regarding the author(s) who contributed to the book because it's literally right there in the preface, not even 2 pages after the one you screenshot and posted in here.
Two entire pages of preface are dedicated to explaining everyone who contributed to the book, what they are known for, their institutional connections, etc.
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Tazarah
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah:
For clarification, let me state that I am not making the claim that "Judaism" was the religion of the location of ancient West Africa (nor do I believe that the reference I posted is making this claim), but of the people who had ultimately ended up there.
Of course there is corroborating evidence to support this. Not only is there evidence that supports the fact that the religion of ancient West Africans was "Judaism", but there is historical evidence literally stating that the Israelites migrated directly into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem.
^^ " I am not making the claim that "Judaism" was the religion of the location of ancient West Africa"....."Not only is there evidence that supports the fact that the religion of ancient West Africans was "Judaism", but there is historical evidence"
_____________________________________
make up your mind please
Why don't you stop playing games and quote me entirely instead of copying/pasting select parts of what I said out of context?
Stop acting like a child.
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
Member # 23365
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah:
For clarification, let me state that I am not making the claim that "Judaism" was the religion of the location of ancient West Africa (nor do I believe that the reference I posted is making this claim), but of the people who had ultimately ended up there.
Of course there is corroborating evidence to support this. Not only is there evidence that supports the fact that the religion of ancient West Africans was "Judaism", but there is historical evidence literally stating that the Israelites migrated directly into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem.
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah:
" I am not making the claim that "Judaism" was the religion of the location of ancient West Africa".....
"Not only is there evidence that supports the fact that the religion of ancient West Africans was "Judaism", but there is historical evidence"
_____________________________________
make up your mind please
LOL you literally misquoted me and removed words from what I actually said in order to make it seem like I said something that I didn't say.
Pretty childish of you, anyone can scroll up to see what I actually said.
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Why don't you stop playing games and quote me entirely instead of copying/pasting select parts of what I said out of context?
Stop acting like a child.
I quoted you full context first to show that when you contradicted yourself you contradicted yourself, not because by highlighting where you contradicted yourself that is was somehow manipulated ow switched around in some way
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
Member # 23365
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah:
For clarification, let me state that I am not making the claim that "Judaism" was the religion of the location of ancient West Africa (nor do I believe that the reference I posted is making this claim), but of the people who had ultimately ended up there.
Of course there is corroborating evidence to support this. Not only is there evidence that supports the fact that the religion of ancient West Africans was "Judaism", but there is historical evidence literally stating that the Israelites migrated directly into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem.
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah:
" I am not making the claim that "Judaism" was the religion of the location of ancient West Africa".....
"Not only is there evidence that supports the fact that the religion of ancient West Africans was "Judaism", but there is historical evidence"
_____________________________________
make up your mind please
This is what I actually said:
"For clarification, let me state that I am not making the claim that "Judaism" was the religion of the location of ancient West Africa (nor do I believe that the reference I posted is making this claim), but of the people who had ultimately ended up there.
Of course there is corroborating evidence to support this. Not only is there evidence that supports the fact that the religion of ancient West Africans was "Judaism", but there is historical evidence literally stating that the Israelites migrated directly into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem. "
Goodbye, you've lost all credibility. Posts: 2491 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Who is the author?
Read the preface... you obviously didn't look too hard for any information regarding the author(s) who contributed to the book because it's literally right there in the preface, not even 2 pages after the one you screenshot and posted in here.
Two entire pages of preface are dedicated to explaining everyone who contributed to the book, what they are known for, their institutional connections, etc.
So you don't know how the particular author is that wrote that and we are just supposed to accept it as accurate because there is a list of names and it's printed in a book? This is proof you?
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
Member # 23365
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Who is the author?
Read the preface... you obviously didn't look too hard for any information regarding the author(s) who contributed to the book because it's literally right there in the preface, not even 2 pages after the one you screenshot and posted in here.
Two entire pages of preface are dedicated to explaining everyone who contributed to the book, what they are known for, their institutional connections, etc.
So you don't know how the particular author is that wrote that and we are just supposed to accept it as accurate because there is a list of names and it's printed in a book? This is proof you?
First, you ask about the authors. Then, I tell you which page in the book lists the authors. Then, you move the goalposts regarding the authors, not to mention the fact that you purposely quoted me out of context.
I've already stated that multiple other sources corroborate the information in this book, so I wonder what your next excuse will be:
"History has recorded the date and cause of the Israelitish immigration into West Africa after the destruction of Jerusalem..."
"Algeria: The Topography and History" by John Reynell Morell, page 335 (1854) Nathaniel Cooke, Milford House, Strand
"King John II in 1492, expelled all the Jews to the island of St. Thomas (West Africa) which had been discovered in 1471, and to other Portuguese settlements on the continent of Africa and from these banished Jews, the black Portuguese, as they are called, and the Jews in Loango, who are despised even by the very Negroes, are descended."
"The Critical Review, Or, Annals of Literature, Volume 57" by Tobias George Smollett, page 141 (1783) W. Simpkin and R. Marshall
"A remarkable fact in the history of loango, in the empire of congo is, that the country, according to a statement which was fully credited by Oldendorp (a European missionary from the 1700s), himself a writer of most correct judgement and unimpeachable veracity, contains many Jews settled in it, who retain their religious rites and the distinct habits which keep them isolated from other nations. Though this seperated from the African population, they (the Jews) are black, and resemble the other negroes in every respect as of physical character. It is probably in allusion to this case that Pennington (1827), in his text book says, the descendants of a colony of Jews originally from Judea, settled on the coast of Africa, are black."
"A Tribute for the Negro" by Wilson Armistead, page 65-66 (1848) W. Irwin; American agent, W. Harned, New York
"...which led the Roman Catholic Missionaries, who laboured here during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, to the conclusion that they had found black Jews in Loango."
"The Nautical Magazine and Naval Chronicle for 1870" by Various, page 529 (2013) Cambridge University Press
quote: Most Europeans back then, as now, do not consider Judaism to be the religion of ancient black West Africans long before the arrival of Christianity or Islam. African Jews there were in West Africa, but Judaism as a significant "religion of West Africa?" Hardly..
To the contrary, almost every credible writing studying pre-colonial West Africa shows that Judaism was not significant numerically. See for example the mainstream history written by an African scholar.
African Religions & Philosophy By John S. Mbiti
or see
Black Jews in Africa and the Americas by Tudor Parfit 2013.
Do you have a credible source besides the opinion piece written by someone in 1714?
The issue is not whether there were African Jews. There were.
But whether they were, QUOTE:
the religion of ancient black West Africans long before the arrival of Christianity or Islam.
^^That claim is shaky.
Why are you trying to use a source written by a man in the year 2013 to challenge information that was written by others in the year 1714? Are you implying that Parfitt, who was born centuries later, knows more about the people in hindsight than actual authorities who walked and talked with these people centuries ago? The source I posted is what we call a firsthand account.
For clarification, let me state that I am not making the claim that "Judaism" was the religion of the location of ancient West Africa (nor do I believe that the reference I posted is making this claim), but of the people who had ultimately ended up there.
Of course there is corroborating evidence to support this. Not only is there evidence that supports the fact that the religion of ancient West Africans was "Judaism", but there is historical evidence literally stating that the Israelites migrated directly into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem.
"History has recorded the date and cause of the Israelitish immigration into West Africa after the destruction of Jerusalem..."
"Algeria: The Topography and History" by John Reynell Morell, page 335 (1854) Nathaniel Cooke, Milford House, Strand
On top of that; Parfitt himself states in his book that according to european tradition, the Jews were always known to be black both metaphorically as well as literally.
"A long European tradition maintained that the Jews, in general, were certainly 'black' metaphorically, in the sense that they were diabolical and evil, as well as black literally."
"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 4 (2013) Harvard University Press
For clarification, let me state that I am not making the claim that "Judaism" was the religion of the location of ancient West Africa (nor do I believe that the reference I posted is making this claim), but of the people who had ultimately ended up there.
OK but you said that your reference of 1714- made the claim. Now you are saying it didn't. Which is it? Both can;t be right at the same time. You seem to have backtracked, which is OK, and which is why the initial statement seemed shaky.
Are you implying that Parfitt, who was born centuries later, knows more about the people in hindsight than actual authorities who walked and talked with these people centuries ago? The source I posted is what we call a firsthand account.
But you just admitted above that your first hand 1714 account, did not say the things you claim it is saying. Basically you misrepresented the account.
Of course there is corroborating evidence to support this. Not only is there evidence that supports the fact that the religion of ancient West Africans was "Judaism", but there is historical evidence literally stating that the Israelites migrated directly into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem.
You haven't presented any corroborating evidence at all. Basically up above you admit that you misrepresented the source you were using as a supporting reference. Again what credible source shows that the religion of West Africans was Judaism? So far you have yet to put anything credible on the table.
^^Finish them you fools, before they head off to West Africa to hang out with the bleks...."
You then assert a new claim that- QUOTE:
"the Israelites migrated directly into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem.."
OK, but what credible evidence do you have of this? Down below you cite something from 1854, but even this source downplays the Jerusalem migrant claim...
Quote- "History has recorded the date and cause of the Israelitish immigration into West Africa after the destruction of Jerusalem..."
The new reference you proffer is from 1854, and it is rather thin. Basically it refs a "Baron Baude" and the author says that there was this "Israelitish" migration direct from Jerusalem to West Africa. But you left out a few lines of the paragraph further down in which the author or whoever says that the mixture of the Jews with the Berber populations of "Barbary" would lead more to the conclusion that said movement is from "the East and Syria." QUOTE: "would lead us to suppose that it forms the foundation of this immigration from the East and Syria."
So while the dispersion of Jews after the Roman conquest did take place, it is unclear if the 1854 source is arguing for any direct "Jerusalem migration angle", when it seems rather to point to migration from Syria and the East, via the Berbers, as a more plausible scenario. Thus it does not lend support to any notion of Jews saddling up in Jerusalem to head directly for West Africa, circa 70 AD.
On top of that; Parfitt himself states in his book that according to european tradition, the Jews were always known to be black both metaphorically as well as literally.
"A long European tradition maintained that the Jews, in general, were certainly 'black' metaphorically, in the sense that they were diabolical and evil, as well as black literally."
"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 4 (2013) Harvard University Press
Parfitt speaks of Jews as "blacks" METAPHORICALLY, and the discussion is of some Europeans trying to bash Jews by comparing them to blacks. He then notes that anti-Jewish critics asserted that Jews were dark-skinned, with others saying only the Portuguese Jews were dark-skinned. The bottom line is to "diss" the Jews, and one easy way to do that was to link them to blacks.
So Parfitt in the section you quoted lends little support to you claims as to:
--Judaism being the religion of West African blacks
--The Israelites migrating direct to West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem
Neither of your proffered 3 sources support these claims, whether it be:
--The 1714 source
--The 1854 source
--The 2013 source
None of them work in support of your arguments above.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Tazarah
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posted
quote:Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova:
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah:
quote: Most Europeans back then, as now, do not consider Judaism to be the religion of ancient black West Africans long before the arrival of Christianity or Islam. African Jews there were in West Africa, but Judaism as a significant "religion of West Africa?" Hardly..
To the contrary, almost every credible writing studying pre-colonial West Africa shows that Judaism was not significant numerically. See for example the mainstream history written by an African scholar.
African Religions & Philosophy By John S. Mbiti
or see
Black Jews in Africa and the Americas by Tudor Parfit 2013.
Do you have a credible source besides the opinion piece written by someone in 1714?
The issue is not whether there were African Jews. There were.
But whether they were, QUOTE:
the religion of ancient black West Africans long before the arrival of Christianity or Islam.
^^That claim is shaky.
Why are you trying to use a source written by a man in the year 2013 to challenge information that was written by others in the year 1714? Are you implying that Parfitt, who was born centuries later, knows more about the people in hindsight than actual authorities who walked and talked with these people centuries ago? The source I posted is what we call a firsthand account.
For clarification, let me state that I am not making the claim that "Judaism" was the religion of the location of ancient West Africa (nor do I believe that the reference I posted is making this claim), but of the people who had ultimately ended up there.
Of course there is corroborating evidence to support this. Not only is there evidence that supports the fact that the religion of ancient West Africans was "Judaism", but there is historical evidence literally stating that the Israelites migrated directly into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem.
"History has recorded the date and cause of the Israelitish immigration into West Africa after the destruction of Jerusalem..."
"Algeria: The Topography and History" by John Reynell Morell, page 335 (1854) Nathaniel Cooke, Milford House, Strand
On top of that; Parfitt himself states in his book that according to european tradition, the Jews were always known to be black both metaphorically as well as literally.
"A long European tradition maintained that the Jews, in general, were certainly 'black' metaphorically, in the sense that they were diabolical and evil, as well as black literally."
"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 4 (2013) Harvard University Press
For clarification, let me state that I am not making the claim that "Judaism" was the religion of the location of ancient West Africa (nor do I believe that the reference I posted is making this claim), but of the people who had ultimately ended up there.
OK but you said that your reference of 1714- made the claim. Now you are saying it didn't. Which is it? Both can;t be right at the same time. You seem to have backtracked, which is OK, and which is why the initial statement seemed shaky.
Are you implying that Parfitt, who was born centuries later, knows more about the people in hindsight than actual authorities who walked and talked with these people centuries ago? The source I posted is what we call a firsthand account.
But you just admitted above that your first hand 1714 account, did not say the things you claim it is saying. Basically you misrepresented the account.
Of course there is corroborating evidence to support this. Not only is there evidence that supports the fact that the religion of ancient West Africans was "Judaism", but there is historical evidence literally stating that the Israelites migrated directly into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem.
You haven't presented any corroborating evidence at all. Basically up above you admit that you misrepresented the source you were using as a supporting reference. Again what credible source shows that the religion of West Africans was Judaism? So far you have yet to put anything credible on the table.
^^Finish them you fools, before they head off to West Africa to hang out with the bleks...."
You then assert a new claim that- QUOTE:
"the Israelites migrated directly into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem.."
OK, but what credible evidence do you have of this? Down below you cite something from 1854, but even this source downplays the Jerusalem migrant claim...
Quote- "History has recorded the date and cause of the Israelitish immigration into West Africa after the destruction of Jerusalem..."
The new reference you proffer is from 1854, and it is rather thin. Basically it refs a "Baron Baude" and the author says that there was this "Israelitish" migration direct from Jerusalem to West Africa. But you left out a few lines of the paragraph further down in which the author or whoever says that the mixture of the Jews with the Berber populations of "Barbary" would lead more to the conclusion that said movement is from "the East and Syria." QUOTE: "would lead us to suppose that it forms the foundation of this immigration from the East and Syria."
So while the dispersion of Jews after the Roman conquest did take place, it is unclear if the 1854 source is arguing for any direct "Jerusalem migration angle", when it seems rather to point to migration from Syria and the East, via the Berbers, as a more plausible scenario. Thus it does not lend support to any notion of Jews saddling up in Jerusalem to head directly for West Africa, circa 70 AD.
On top of that; Parfitt himself states in his book that according to european tradition, the Jews were always known to be black both metaphorically as well as literally.
"A long European tradition maintained that the Jews, in general, were certainly 'black' metaphorically, in the sense that they were diabolical and evil, as well as black literally."
"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 4 (2013) Harvard University Press
Parfitt speaks of Jews as "blacks" METAPHORICALLY, and the discussion is of some Europeans trying to bash Jews by comparing them to blacks. He then notes that anti-Jewish critics asserted that Jews were dark-skinned, with others saying only the Portuguese Jews were dark-skinned. The bottom line is to "diss" the Jews, and one easy way to do that was to link them to blacks.
So Parfitt in the section you quoted lends little support to you claims as to:
--Judaism being the religion of West African blacks
--The Israelites migrating direct to West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem
Neither of your proffered 3 sources support these claims, whether it be:
--The 1714 source
--The 1854 source
--The 2013 source
None of them work in support of your arguments above.
1. I never stated that the religion of the LOCATION of ancient West Africa was Judaism, I simply said the people (West AFRICANS), hence the usage of the word West AFRICANS (emphasis on the people), as opposed to west AFRICA (the location) -- nor did I ever insinuate that the source I quoted from made any claims about the religion of the LOCATION of West Africa -- but rather the PEOPLE. I'm not backtracking at all, you just aren't comprehending what's being said.
2. I've posted several sources in this thread that all corroborate every claim I've made about the Jews being black/negro people who either migrated to West Africa from Jerusalem after the fall of Jerusalem (the original source being one of them), as well as sources explaining how the black/negro Jews who were banished from Europe ending up in West Africa (the original source once again being one of those sources.
Please refer to my response to the lioness for these sources, as I prefer to keep my responses as brief and to the point as possible to avoid leaving room for deflection, strawman arguments and red herrings.
3. Parfitt clearly states on page 4 of his book (Black Jews in Africa and the Americas) that according to longstanding European tradition, the Jews were always known to be black both metaphorically AND literally. I already emphasized the literal part once before, did you miss it? Here it is once again:
"A long European tradition maintained that the Jews, in general, were certainly 'black' metaphorically, in the sense that they were diabolical and evil, as well as black literally."
"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 4 (2013) Harvard University Press
Egyptian Jews trading with tribes in the northern part of Mali since biblical times. In the eighth century CE. Rhadanites (multi-lingual Jewish traders) settled in Timbuktu as a base from which to solidify their trade routes through the desert. In the 14th and 15th centuries, Jews fleeing Spanish persecution joined them. Members of the Kehath (Ka'ti) family founded three villages near Timbuktu -- Kirshamba, Haybomo, and Kongougara. In 1492, King Askia Muhammed threatened execution to Jews who did not convert to Islam. Some Jews fled, some converted, some remained in Mali with centuries of persecution and random massacre. By the 20th century, no practicing Jews remained in Mali. In the 1990s Malian Jewry began a revival. Ismael Diadie Haidara, a historian from Timbuktu, has explored Mali's Jewish past. In 1993 Haidara established Zakhor (the Timbuktu Association for Friendship with the Jewish World) as an informal association of Malian descendants of Jews to teach their children about their Jewish heritage, learn Hebrew and learn their histories. A community of 1000 "Jews" have recently revealed their identity. The Renewal of Jewish Identity in Timbuktu by Karen Primack. For information, contact Ismael Haidara, who divides his time between Timbuktu and Granada, Spain: B. P. 66, Tombouctou, Mali, West Africa, tel. (223) 92-11-78 or e-mail [August 2009]
In 1860, Rabbi Mordechai Abi Serour emigrated from Morocco with several Jews to trade in Timbuktu. Rabbi Serour had to negotiate with the local authorities to obtain “protected people” status. The newly arrived congregation established a synagogue and Jewish cemetery in the area. By the early 20th century no Jews remained in Mali.
In the mid-1990s, however, thousands of so called ‘Hidden Jews,’ began a Malian Jewish revival in Timbuktu, Mali; many reclaiming their Jewish heritage. In 1993, Ismael Diadie Haidara, a historian from Timbuktu, established an organization called Zakhor (Timbuktu Association for Friendship with the Jewish World). This organization is predominately composed of Malians, descendants of Jews. Over the years, much of the Malian Jewry’s history has been uncovered; it was once concealed to avoid persecution.
Last Rabbi of Timbuktu. Rabbi Mordechai Aby Serour circa 1870s - 1880s. born in southern Morocco in Akka in the present-day region of Souss-Massa
At the age of nine, he left his village (in the extreme south of Morocco), alone and without money, to Marrakech (in the center of the country), famous for its Talmudic schools of mellah , where he studied Talmud and Hebrew [ 5 ] , [ 4 ] .
At the age of 13, in 1839, he was sent to Jerusalem to study rabbinical studies . On his journey, the young adolescent was received in the main Jewish communities where he stayed, such as those of Provence , Mogador , Tangier , Gibraltar , Salonika , Constantinople , Smyrna , Jaffa then Jerusalem, . He took three years to reach Palestine and spent four years in a yeshiva before coming out in 1846.with the title of rabbi .
He then served the community of Aleppo in Syria for a year, which allowed him to raise enough money to begin his journey back to the Maghreb, which made him follow with caravanners the trail extending the spice route. and incense , by Egypt , Libya ..., along the desert coasts, in Tripolitania , Tunisia and Algeria. It stops in turn in Tunis , Constantine , Philippeville ( Skikda ), Algiers (from
The Jews of Mali, sometimes referred to as “Zahkor,” meaning, “Remember,” are descendants from Egyptian and Saharan Jewish traders.
“In the eighth century A.D. the Rhadanites (multi-lingual Jewish traders) settled in Timbuktu and used it as a base from which they could solidify their trade routes through the desert. In the 14th and 15th centuries Jews fleeing Spanish persecution settled in Timbuktu. Members of the Kehath (Ka'ti) family founded three villages that still exist near Timbuktu -- Kirshamba, Haybomo, and Kongougara. In 1492, King Askia Muhammed took power in Timbuktu and threatened Jews who did not convert to Islam with execution. Some Jews fled, some converted, some remained in Mali and faced centuries of persecution and the occasional massacre. By the 20th century there were no practicing Jews in Mali.” - http://www.mindspring.com/~jaypsand/timbuktu2.htm
The “Zahkor” movement in Mali made up of about one thousand people, was founded in Timbuktu in 1993 by the Malian historian Ismael Daidé Haïdara. His followers claim to be the offspring of Saharan Jews.
There are approximately 1,000 people with alleged Jewish roots in Timbuktu, Mali. They arrived in the 14th century fleeing persecution in Spain, and migrated south to the Timbuktu area, at that time part of the Songhai Empire. Among them was the Kehath (Ka’ti) family, descended from Ismael Jan Kot Al-yahudi of Scheida, Morocco. Sons of this prominent family founded three villages that still exist near Timbuktu—Kirshamba, Haybomo, and Kongougara.
A key contact for information about the Jewish community in Timbuktu is Richard Gold of the U.S. Agency for International Development. He was posted in Bamako, the capital of Mali, during the 1990s. He is now in the Philippines.
Gold concurs that the community is not interested in converting to Judaism. “I haven’t heard any real desire to convert. Given their absence of even the most basic knowledge of Judaism, I couldn’t see anyone being ready to convert for many years. What is special about the Jews of Timbuktu is that they are taking pride in their Jewish heritage.
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
Member # 23365
Egyptian Jews trading with tribes in the northern part of Mali since biblical times. In the eighth century CE. Rhadanites (multi-lingual Jewish traders) settled in Timbuktu as a base from which to solidify their trade routes through the desert. In the 14th and 15th centuries, Jews fleeing Spanish persecution joined them. Members of the Kehath (Ka'ti) family founded three villages near Timbuktu -- Kirshamba, Haybomo, and Kongougara. In 1492, King Askia Muhammed threatened execution to Jews who did not convert to Islam. Some Jews fled, some converted, some remained in Mali with centuries of persecution and random massacre. By the 20th century, no practicing Jews remained in Mali. In the 1990s Malian Jewry began a revival. Ismael Diadie Haidara, a historian from Timbuktu, has explored Mali's Jewish past. In 1993 Haidara established Zakhor (the Timbuktu Association for Friendship with the Jewish World) as an informal association of Malian descendants of Jews to teach their children about their Jewish heritage, learn Hebrew and learn their histories. A community of 1000 "Jews" have recently revealed their identity. The Renewal of Jewish Identity in Timbuktu by Karen Primack. For information, contact Ismael Haidara, who divides his time between Timbuktu and Granada, Spain: B. P. 66, Tombouctou, Mali, West Africa, tel. (223) 92-11-78 or e-mail [August 2009]
In 1860, Rabbi Mordechai Abi Serour emigrated from Morocco with several Jews to trade in Timbuktu. Rabbi Serour had to negotiate with the local authorities to obtain “protected people” status. The newly arrived congregation established a synagogue and Jewish cemetery in the area. By the early 20th century no Jews remained in Mali.
In the mid-1990s, however, thousands of so called ‘Hidden Jews,’ began a Malian Jewish revival in Timbuktu, Mali; many reclaiming their Jewish heritage. In 1993, Ismael Diadie Haidara, a historian from Timbuktu, established an organization called Zakhor (Timbuktu Association for Friendship with the Jewish World). This organization is predominately composed of Malians, descendants of Jews. Over the years, much of the Malian Jewry’s history has been uncovered; it was once concealed to avoid persecution.
Last Rabbi of Timbuktu. Rabbi Mordechai Aby Serour circa 1870s - 1880s. born in southern Morocco in Akka in the present-day region of Souss-Massa
At the age of nine, he left his village (in the extreme south of Morocco), alone and without money, to Marrakech (in the center of the country), famous for its Talmudic schools of mellah , where he studied Talmud and Hebrew [ 5 ] , [ 4 ] .
At the age of 13, in 1839, he was sent to Jerusalem to study rabbinical studies . On his journey, the young adolescent was received in the main Jewish communities where he stayed, such as those of Provence , Mogador , Tangier , Gibraltar , Salonika , Constantinople , Smyrna , Jaffa then Jerusalem, . He took three years to reach Palestine and spent four years in a yeshiva before coming out in 1846.with the title of rabbi .
He then served the community of Aleppo in Syria for a year, which allowed him to raise enough money to begin his journey back to the Maghreb, which made him follow with caravanners the trail extending the spice route. and incense , by Egypt , Libya ..., along the desert coasts, in Tripolitania , Tunisia and Algeria. It stops in turn in Tunis , Constantine , Philippeville ( Skikda ), Algiers (from
The Jews of Mali, sometimes referred to as “Zahkor,” meaning, “Remember,” are descendants from Egyptian and Saharan Jewish traders.
“In the eighth century A.D. the Rhadanites (multi-lingual Jewish traders) settled in Timbuktu and used it as a base from which they could solidify their trade routes through the desert. In the 14th and 15th centuries Jews fleeing Spanish persecution settled in Timbuktu. Members of the Kehath (Ka'ti) family founded three villages that still exist near Timbuktu -- Kirshamba, Haybomo, and Kongougara. In 1492, King Askia Muhammed took power in Timbuktu and threatened Jews who did not convert to Islam with execution. Some Jews fled, some converted, some remained in Mali and faced centuries of persecution and the occasional massacre. By the 20th century there were no practicing Jews in Mali.” - http://www.mindspring.com/~jaypsand/timbuktu2.htm
The “Zahkor” movement in Mali made up of about one thousand people, was founded in Timbuktu in 1993 by the Malian historian Ismael Daidé Haïdara. His followers claim to be the offspring of Saharan Jews.
There are approximately 1,000 people with alleged Jewish roots in Timbuktu, Mali. They arrived in the 14th century fleeing persecution in Spain, and migrated south to the Timbuktu area, at that time part of the Songhai Empire. Among them was the Kehath (Ka’ti) family, descended from Ismael Jan Kot Al-yahudi of Scheida, Morocco. Sons of this prominent family founded three villages that still exist near Timbuktu—Kirshamba, Haybomo, and Kongougara.
A key contact for information about the Jewish community in Timbuktu is Richard Gold of the U.S. Agency for International Development. He was posted in Bamako, the capital of Mali, during the 1990s. He is now in the Philippines.
Gold concurs that the community is not interested in converting to Judaism. “I haven’t heard any real desire to convert. Given their absence of even the most basic knowledge of Judaism, I couldn’t see anyone being ready to convert for many years. What is special about the Jews of Timbuktu is that they are taking pride in their Jewish heritage.
You completely ignored everything I said in my last response to you, and you completely ignored all of the sources I presented to you. Why is that?
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: You completely ignored everything I said in my last response to you, and you completely ignored all of the sources I presented to you. Why is that?
please go to the top of your previous post and hit the notepad icon and delete the long quote or mine and just leave your comment it's too repetitive, thanks
zarahan chopped you down to size but you don't seem to get it
if a book says ""the Israelites migrated directly into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem.." that is not proof. Once a remark is made like that they also have to site evidence that is is true, for instance verifiable artifacts or authentic historic texts
Note in my last post, actual people and specific places named "West Africa" is much too broad. You need cities or towns with names
then another post several posts before that on Tuat with details
Come on now, this vague stuff you have is not cutting it My stuff is weighing your argument better than you are as for Jews in Africa
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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That is a footnote referring to th Braon Baude volume 3 Alegerie in French which you can look up for further details, the footnote:
quote: " Algerie, by Baron Baude, vol. iii, 1843.History has recorded the date and cause of the Israelitish immigration into West Africa, after the destruction of Jerusalem ; but the immemorial establishment of the Scenite Jews, who in the whole extent of Barbary are mixed with the Berber population, would lead us to suppose that it forms the foundation of this immigration from the East and Syria, which Sallust has related in these words : * Afterward the Phoenicians— some for the sake of lessening the pressure at home, others from motives of ambition and curiosity — built Adrumetum, Hippo, Leptis, and other cities on the sea-shore '. Numerous Jewish migrations occurred during the persecutions of Adrian ; and in the third century these emigrants formed independent tribes in the Hedjaz near Medina, and near Mecca ; and their religion spread in Yemen. If we may believe the Arab historians, most of the African Berbers and Arabs professed the Hebrew faith in the seventh and eight centuries, and the preaching of Mohametanism made no way amongst them. This would appear to explain the phenomenon of the Jews forming till lately (1843) a fourth of the population of Algiers, and more than four-fifths of that of Oran ".^ II. M. Rozet was much at a loss to know the meaning of this last singular ceremony, and after some enquiry was at last informed by a rabbi that as soon as a man dies the Devil always stations himself at the door of the house, in order to get possession of the body when on its way to its last abode. He is appalled, however, by the number of rabbis, whom he finds walking at each side of the body, and, afraid to execute his project,
* Algerie, by Baron Baude, vol. iii, 1843.
^^ this source needs to be located to see exactly what he says, translation tools can be used if necessary, easy and free
Algerie, by Baron Baude, vol. iii, 1843 look into it
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
One must be careful to distinguish Leo from his translator Pory, a common enough confusion. [EDIT: Never knew there was a 'modern' edition with material by Brown. So look out. The online Brown edition is only 1 of 3 vols.]
=-=-=
bani Israil were few in W Afr just like everywhere else in the world. Bypassing oral history, two Sahel city states are documented. They fell to al Murabitun hence Mauritania has the most written on them though sparse Arabic records or notices of them are in English.
Diop mentions a bani Israil settlement in the Savannah. They were much too late to introduce any civ to W Afr. They are credited for introducing shea butter fire casting of wells making them 'watertight'. Hunwick was incredulous when he uncovered the record forbidding the sale of black skinned Jews in one Savannah/Open-canopy forest kingdom iirc. Historically I know little of Guinea belt. I did greet and drive a Nigerian come to the states to pick up a Sepher Torah for his tribes Qahal Qadosh.
=-=-= Completely habitable throughout the last African Humid Period and receiving colonists fleeing the desertifying Sahra, West Africa has many indigenous religions.
Srnan Djuka and others have a syncretized African Judaism. There in Surinam a lect, Djo Tongo, emerged from Hebrew, 'SenegalCongo', and Indo-European much the same way Yiddish pooled Hebrew, Slavic, and high German.
The last one I know who spoke it was a cantor at the Spanish and Portuguese Synagogue in the City of New York, Rev Dr Louis C Gerstein (A"H).
=-=-=
And I've shown how dynamic the Israelite community is when I posted the Caribe rabbi of a Filipino Jewish congregation receiving a donated Sepher Torah.
Not in W Afr but still raising a cry for DNA sampling from Wargla in Algeria, once a home to Jews both black complexioned and non-orthodox.
Tudor's tone was very negative in the 90s boasting in one book of a mack attempt on a noblewoman and he expected negative returns from DNA tests.
Not saying she's recommended but imo of much higher calibre would be Edith Bruder who no doubt will lead to sources I've referenced from the 70s til today anda whole lot more
Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
Member # 23365
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: You completely ignored everything I said in my last response to you, and you completely ignored all of the sources I presented to you. Why is that?
please go to the top of your previous post and hit the notepad icon and delete the long quote or mine and just leave your comment it's too repetitive, thanks
zarahan chopped you down to size but you don't seem to get it
if a book says ""the Israelites migrated directly into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem.." that is not proof. Once a remark is made like that they also have to site evidence that is is true, for instance verifiable artifacts or authentic historic texts
Note in my last post, actual people and specific places named "West Africa" is much too broad. You need cities or towns with names
then another post several posts before that on Tuat with details
Come on now, this vague stuff you have is not cutting it My stuff is weighing your argument better than you are as for Jews in Africa
Oh please, nobody chopped anything down to size. You're one of those types of people who would agree with literally anyone regardless of how ridiculous they sound, just as long as they are challenging someone who you are challenging.
If you actually knew anything about the topic then you'd realize that zaharan actually told several lies in their long-winded rant: _______
1) First of all, zaharan said Tudor Parfitt only wrote about the Jews being black metaphorically, yet I literally quoted from page 4 of Parfitt's book and it says the Jews were black both metaphorically as well as literally.
"A long European tradition maintained that the Jews, in general, were certainly 'black' metaphorically, in the sense that they were diabolical and evil, as well as black literally."
"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 4 (2013) Harvard University Press
"He then notes that anti-Jewish critics asserted that Jews were dark-skinned, with others saying only the Portuguese Jews were dark-skinned. The bottom line is to "diss" the Jews, and one easy way to do that was to link them to blacks."
^^^ first of all, the quote literally says the portuguese Jews were black, not "dark-skinned" as your lying buddy zaharan falsely claimed.
This is the reference:
"Tis a vulgar error that the Jews are all black; for this is only true of the Portuguese, who, marrying always among one another, beget children like themselves, and consequently the swarthiness of their complexion is entail'd upon their whole Race, even in the Northern regions. But the Jews who are originally of Germany, those, for example, I have seen at Prague, are not blacker than the rest of their countrymen."
"A New Voyage to Italy" by Maximilien Misson, page 139 (1714) R. Bonwicke
3. Third, zaharan said the Jews were not really black but labeled as black as an insult or to bash them. If that were truly the case as our friend zaharan would like everyone to believe, and the Jews were only labeled as black to bash them, then why does the reference only say the Portuguese Jews were all black, while the rest of the Jews were not? Why weren't ALL of the Jews labeled as black? According to zaharan's eurocentric logic, ALL of them should have been labeled as black if what zaharan is saying were true.
Was there something special about the Portuguese Jews that zaharan knows about, that we don't? _______
4. zaharan tried to deflect and create a strawman regarding the source I referenced which says the Israelites migrated into West Africa after the fall of Jerusalem by mentioning places they went to before reaching West Africa, as if that changes the fact that they ended up in West Africa. _______
And THIS is the person you say "chopped me down to size"?
zaharan is a fraud, but it's not surprising that you're rooting them on. Birds of a feather flock together.
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quote: According to this historical reference from the year 1714, it was a well known fact amongst Europeans that "Judaism" was the religion of ancient black West Africans long before the arrival of Christianity or Islam.
From my understanding... what was meant was that the West African tribes traditions and practices where Judaic or primitive Hebrewisms like those practiced in the old testament..
not that most West African's where "Jews" i.e. Ashkenazi or Shepardic
I don't think that parallelisms between West African tribes or cognates between Hebrew & Kwa languages should just be written off as coincidence or some sort of diffusion.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
Member # 23365
posted
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
quote: According to this historical reference from the year 1714, it was a well known fact amongst Europeans that "Judaism" was the religion of ancient black West Africans long before the arrival of Christianity or Islam.
From my understanding... what was meant was that the West African tribes traditions and practices where Judaic or primitive Hebrewisms like those practiced in the old testament..
not that most West African's where "Jews" i.e. Ashkenazi or Shepardic
I don't think that parallelisms between West African tribes or cognates between Hebrew & Kwa languages should just be written off as coincidence or some sort of diffusion.
It means what it says... the Hebrews of antiquity were black/negroid people. Artifacts, historical accounts, anthropology, etc., can confirm this. Ashkenazi and sephardic jewish people are the descendants of converts, a lot of them even admit they have no relation to ancient Israel.
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quote: the Hebrews of antiquity were black/negroid people.
I can agree with this...and I would think the Kwa tribes all with names of an iteration of Hebrew/Yoruba/Ibri/Ivri/Ewe/Beni i.e. Banu
are pre 2nd temple Hebrews.. I think imho.. "Jews" Ashekenazi Spehardic are something different 2nd temple talmudic synagogue greek Jews...
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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It's in a book. Does that make it true? To determine a claim you have to look at the method used to prove the claim and see if it is backed by convincing evidence -rather than confirmation bias where you want something to be true and then go looking only for bits and pieces that you think contributes to the belief while ignoring other information to the contrary
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posted
Daniel Finch, 2nd Earl of Nottingham and 7th Earl of Winchilsea by Jonathan Richardson
Memoirs of the Secret Services of John Macky, Esq.: During the Reigns of King William 1733
_______________________________________
In this time period one will find writers who will refer to Africans as "black" and at the same time Europeans looking slightly tinted "black". The word is used inconstantly, not like it used today in America, "Black" with a strong connotation of only primary African descent Yet in 1733 this man Daniel Finch, 2nd Earl of Nottingham is described as a "tall thin very black man"
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The links of W Afrs of Jewish heritage to S&P Sephardic (note spelling) are untiable since the earliest expulsion throughout the inquisition.
I first came across the Seph/Ash blk/yte quote in this book decades ago which includes legacy genetic data.
Context can determine when moreno is an euphemism for African black descent or a Euro brunette. Also black is not limited to any African Negro Race so all Euro notices of black do not equate to such.
Alongside the fact of black complexioned Sepharadiym of Iberia, there's a polemic by a French Jew comparing Jews complexion to a plum while attributing mensal coitus as the reason for palr complexions.
Bruder's book is the most reliable current one on Jews of Africa until the fine day Israelites finally document the subject themselves, a task I can't get them to take on though there are degreed anthropologists and historians (Harvard no less) among them.
She was feted by the 102 yr old traditional Israelite community at Beth Shalom synagogue in Brooklyn when her book was first published.
posted
Garfield-Judas ( the agent) has a guy that says all dark/black/african Sephardic jews are the slaves of the white sephards that they converted for whatever purposes..
If Kwa tribes have Hebraic connections which I believe to be likely case, the most logical place to look is through the Yemen post Babylonian exile pre Ezra 2nd Temple
Academics Dierk Lange and Dana Marniche both use this model it really makes the most sense
I believe this exile was of the African/Arabic/Hebrew tribes from Canaan
when it comes to Ashanti I would agree with Eva Meyerowitz pointing to a Phoenician/Punic Hebraic influence in their culture/genetics and beliefs..
Understanding that all of these groups mixed and mingled with indigenous tribes of the West coast creating new groups and polities that we know today
Histories, peoples and migrations are always complicated and I don't like simplistic dismissals or easy affirmations..
quote: The present Christians in Africa are partly Strangers, and partly Natives, some of them slaves to the Turks and Barbarians, and others free. Some of the Jews who inhabit both Sides the Niger derive themselves from Abraham. Others fled hither from Asia when Vespasian destroy’d Jerusalem, or from Judea when t’was wasted by the Romans, Persians, Saracens, and Christians. Some were banish’d from Italy in 1342, from Spain in 1462, from the Low Countries in 1350, from France in 1403, and from England in 1422. These all differ in Habit, and are divided into several wealthy and numerous Tribes, but have no Dominion, are despis’d of all Nations, and so abominated by the Turks that they are not admitted to be Mohometans unless first baptiz’d, and then made use of only to receive their Customs, and gather in their Taxes."
@ Tazarah ^^^^
I would agree with the above statement, with modifications and updates
West Africa between the Niger & Lake Chad is a fascinating mix of peoples from the Near East and all over the continent
quote: The people of Yoruba are descended from the Kanaana [= Canaanites] and the kindred of Nimrud.
quote: 314 Now the reason of their having settled in the west according to what we are told is that Yaarubu son of Kahtan drove them out of Irak to westwards
315 and they travelled between Masar [Misr, i.e. Egypt] and Habash [= Ethiopia] until they reached Yoruba. It happened that they left a portion of their people in every country they passed. It is said that the Sudanese who live up on the hills [i.e. the Nigerian Plateau] are all their kindred; so also the people of Yauri are their kindred. The people of Yoruba resemble those of Nufi in appearance
310. Muahammed Bello - Scholar and later (1817-31) Caliph of Sokoto, author of many works in Arabic; his Infaq al-Maisur, cited here, was written in 1812. A partial translation of this passage was included in Denham & Clapperton 1826, 163, 165.
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Tukuler
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Post Roman destruction Judaeans had connections clear to China. The one stop shop for Hebraisms in West Africa particularly Ghana is Joseph J Williams.
Our Sahel/Savannah traditions do not derive us from Yemen. Our split migrations west, west by southwest, and southwest stem overwhelmingly from Libya following a reverse pogrom there in the 2nd century.
al Maghili a"a had many synagogues razed and offered the equal of $25 for every severed Jewish head in the Tuat oases and swayed many W-WC African kings toward Jew hatred.
Teimani have been in Yemen since the Red Sea Indian Ocean trade. They migrated nowhere from there but have relationship to Beta Israel who traditionally are stay at homes with strict purification rites against any leaving villages and coming in contact with non-Jews for any reason. They too have no migratory exodes to anywhere.
Israelites of Nigeria are from straight southward from Libya migrants. The Libyan Israeli qahal took a few in back in the days Israeli government was super strict against any kind of helix haired blx making aliyah.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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posted
What may be instructing re the 18th century François-Maximillien Mission quote about black S&P Jewry is this 19th century one from Count Adam Gurowski.
quote:
Numbers of Jews have the greatest resemblance to the American mulattos. Sallow carnation complexion, thick lips, crisp black hair. Of all the Jewish population scattered over the globe one fourth dwells in Poland. I am therefore well acquainted with their features. On my arrival in this country, I took every light colored mulatto for a Jew.
.
Scrip flippin from W Afr Jews onto Eur Jews of W Afr features.
Anybody wanna see some W Afr legacy DNA data for Jewry?
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Tukuler
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Tazarah
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: What may be instructing re the 18th century François-Maximillien Mission quote about black S&P Jewry is this 19th century one from Count Adam Gurowski
quote:
Numbers of Jews have the greatest resemblance to be American mulattos. Salo Carnation complexion, thick lips, Chris black hair. Of all the Jewish population scattered over the blue tube 1-4 s dwells in Poland. I am therefore well acquainted with your features. On my arrival in this country, I took every light colored mulatto for a Jew.
.
Scrip flippin from W Afr Jews onto Eur Jews of W Afr features.
Anybody wanna see some W Afr legacy DNA data for Jewry?
Yes, I would like to see it please
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Tazarah
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Daniel Finch, 2nd Earl of Nottingham and 7th Earl of Winchilsea by Jonathan Richardson
Memoirs of the Secret Services of John Macky, Esq.: During the Reigns of King William 1733
_______________________________________
In this time period one will find writers who will refer to Africans as "black" and at the same time Europeans looking slightly tinted "black". The word is used inconstantly, not like it used today in America, "Black" with a strong connotation of only primary African descent Yet in 1733 this man Daniel Finch, 2nd Earl of Nottingham is described as a "tall thin very black man"
Not only are you deflecting but you are also now quoting sources out of context while hoping that they help your case but they are actually debunking you.
I notice you have nothing to say about the 3 lies that your friend zaharan told after I pointed them out, and you've still yet to address the fact that I've posted sources stating that the Jews who were banished from Portugal to West Africa during the Inquisition were black/negro people who had black/negro descendants.
In other words, these Jews were LITERALLY black, and Parfitt says on page 4 of his book (Black Jews in Africa and the Americas) that the Jews were known to be black not only metaphorically but literally as well.
It's a sad time in the world for eurocentrics like yourself and zaharan when you guys are seriously trying to convince people that white caucasian jewish people were "LITERALLY black", all to deny the truth.
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Tazarah
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: The links of W Afrs of Jewish heritage to S&P Sephardic (note spelling) are untiable since the earliest expulsion throughout the inquisition.
I first came across the Seph/Ash blk/yte quote in this book decades ago which includes legacy genetic data.
Context can determine when moreno is an euphemism for African black descent or a Euro brunette. Also black is not limited to any African Negro Race so all Euro notices of black do not equate to such.
Alongside the fact of black complexioned Sepharadiym of Iberia, there's a polemic by a French Jew comparing Jews complexion to a plum while attributing mensal coitus as the reason for palr complexions.
Bruder's book is the most reliable current one on Jews of Africa until the fine day Israelites finally document the subject themselves, a task I can't get them to take on though there are degreed anthropologists and historians (Harvard no less) among them.
She was feted by the 102 yr old traditional Israelite community at Beth Shalom synagogue in Brooklyn when her book was first published.
Yes, context is key. There's also these quotes from jewish historian Jonathan Schorsch's book (Jews and Blacks in the Early Modern World) that prove beyond a reasonable doubt that usage of the word "black" when describing Jews was actually in reference to literal black or negro people, not "dark-skinned caucasians" or "tanned caucasians":
"As late as 1753, during the debate in England over that year's Jewish Naturalization Act, one polemicist (debater) suggested that anyone who wanted to look Jewish should rub herself with walnut husks 'to fix such an indelible hue... and make you complete olive beauties' with a 'lively complexion like that of a new Negro from the coast of Guinea.'"
"Jews and Blacks in the Early Modern World" by Jonathan Schorsch, page 180-181 (2004) Cambridge University Press
"Already in 1691, François-Maximilian Mission, wrote against such views of Jewish blackness, while bolstering in the process the impression that the idea was not uncommon:
'Tis a vulgar error that the Jews are all black; for this is only true of the Portuguese, who, marrying always among one another, beget children like themselves, and consequently the swarthiness of their complexion is entail'd upon their whole Race, even in the Northern regions. But the Jews who are originally of Germany, those, for example, I have seen at Prague, are not blacker than the rest of their countrymen."
"Jews and Blacks in the Early Modern World" by Jonathan Schorsch, page 181 (2004) Cambridge University Press
********* and to top it off, on page 184 of his book, Schorsch even takes it a step further by acknowledging the fact that according to tradition of the Jews, Shem (progenitor of the Shemitic races) was always known to be a black man until the rise of european colonialism, which is when europeans purposely changed the ancient texts to make him "white" instead of black:
"Harold Brackman cited the fascinating and revealing emendations made to the color scheme of Noah's three sons that appeared in the first printed editions of the early medieval text 'Pirke d'Rabi Eliezer'. Shem, originally 'black and pleasing' in earlier manuscripts, was Europeanized, becoming 'white and pleasing'... Brackman, unclear on when these changes were made, wrote that these editorial revisions were in place by the sixteenth century."
"Jews and Blacks in the Early Modern World" by Jonathan Schorsch, page 184 (2004) Cambridge University Press
Tazarah
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: Garfield-Judas ( the agent) has a guy that says all dark/black/african Sephardic jews are the slaves of the white sephards that they converted for whatever purposes..
Yes... garfield saw that a lot of Israelites were using his (Schorsch's) book to prove the Jews were literal black people so garfield went and let the guy know so that he could try to clean everything up in an interview.
But it's too late... Schorsch wrote what he wrote. I quoted 3 passages from his book in my last post, and as you can see, the new perspective he seems to have taken on the issue in his recent interviews with garfield completely contradicts the information that he's written in his book.
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Tukuler
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Alright, gimme a few.
Here're some select extracts.
Right off the bat we see the African big D is no myth ha ha gotchas
Glean whatever into your own insights. Like southern Sepharadiym already admixed with German Jews under their authority, further deliberately whitened their 'olive' skins by intermarriage even with unconverted whites. If female all generations from her are legally non-Jewish. How many white American Jews have such unknown ancestry. None would want the consequences if a fact like that became known at large.
posted
Chafariz d’el Rey in the Alfama District (of Lisbon) Painting with a view of a square with the Kings Fountain, in Lisbon. Date: 1570 Location: Lisbon, Portugal
(detail of above)
The painting is not only unprecedented for its portrayal of so many Jews — who have long beards, flat berets and yellow circles affixed to their clothes, per Charles V’s ruling — in the 1500s, but also for its depiction of so many African figures. Jews and blacks lived in coterminous neighborhoods at the port, which was considered less desirable real estate.
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Tazarah, personally I think an convert is much more of an asset to a religion than someone who doesn't practice the religion but can trace their ancestry back to the founders of the religion.
Someone in West Africa might practice Judaism but have no Hebrew ancestry and another person might have Hebrew Israelite ancestry but practice Islam or Christianity.
So if you go to some random location in West Africa can you tell if some random person has Hebrew ancestry or not ?
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Tukuler
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And oh yeah, current genomics uncovered ancestry genetically indistinct from 'Senegal-Congo' speakers dated to before the Babylonian exile.
Altarpiece of the Holy Cross (Retablo de la Santa Cruz); Church of Blesa, Aragon, Spain. This panel shows Saint Helena enthroned among the Jews. Helena wears a trigregnum, symbolizing that she represents the Catholic Church in her quest for the True Cross. Spanish-gothic style; oil on wood, c.1481-1487.
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^^^ excellent research... I feel like this is the right track
quote:
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Tukuler
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Well most everyone will choose what best suits their own worldview dismissing rebuttal, valid or not, myself included.
Posting here trying my best not to be ethnocentric about all this OK.
This is my heritage it comes largely from the Osiride Resurrection cultus of Ancient Egypt and partly from ancient Iraqi theology woven together by a group of Canaanites who seceded east to the hills forging a new identity free of Canaanite and its overlord Egypt hegemony; to the best of my researches.
. I share this heritage with a plethora of others likewise hailing from W Afr before the Americas. The Israelite shuls are medley of nationalities Diasporan and Continental and visited by Jews from all around the world.
Our day to day living heritage origins are not to be decided by outsiders anymore than any other black ethnic group allows outsiders to dictate to them who they are and where they come. Call it self-determination aka Kujichagulia or applying active agency.
Yoruba posit indigenous origins in Nigeria. Ethnology archaeology and genomics support that.
Yeah them two guys Moorjani^ and Price* showed W Afr genomes in biblical Israelites.
* Beduin 9% YRI 90 generations ago inferred dates of 60–90 generations correspond to about 2,000–4,000 years ago
^ Iraqi Jews 4.5% W Afr ancestry 93-137 generations ago 3–5% sub-Saharan African ancestry in the 8 diverse Jewish groups date of the mixture of 72 generations (∼2,000 years assuming 29 years per generation) Iraqi Jews —who are thought to descend at least in part from Jews who were exiled to Babylon about 2,600 years ago— share the signal of African admixture.
.
Objectively, 'SenegalCongo' speaker genomes are also an ancient Hebrew sub-strata population geneticists date to Israel's formation era and to Judea's final Roman destruction through the Cyrenaica incident precipitating movements west and south.
posted
Tazarah says: . I never stated that the religion of the LOCATION of ancient West Africa was Judaism, I simply said the people (West AFRICANS), hence the usage of the word West AFRICANS (emphasis on the people), as opposed to west AFRICA (the location) -- nor did I ever insinuate that the source I quoted from made any claims about the religion of the LOCATION of West Africa -- but rather the PEOPLE. I'm not backtracking at all, you just aren't comprehending what's being said.
LOL, you have been caught out in source misrepresentation, and now you are trying to backtrack your way out by obfuscation. Yes, you said “West Africans”- and that claim has been severely debunked. You are now trying to create a red herring by claiming that you were not referring to “location.” But no one ever said you were referring to any “location.” The red herring does not work. We all know you were referring to “people” i.e. “West Africans” and based on your own “people” statement your argument fails.
2. I've posted several sources in this thread that all corroborate every claim I've made about the Jews being black/negro people who either migrated to West Africa from Jerusalem after the fall of Jerusalem (the original source being one of them), as well as sources explaining how the black/negro Jews who were banished from Europe ending up in West Africa (the original source once again being one of those sources.
Its all well and good to CLAIM something, but so far you have not produced anything credible in support. Matter of fact your own “supporting” references debunk your claim, as detailed above.
Please refer to my response to the lioness for these sources, as I prefer to keep my responses as brief and to the point as possible to avoid leaving room for deflection, strawman arguments and red herrings.
Now that you are called out you want to be “brief” and “to the point”. But your own references undermine the claims you are trying to make > Now as to what you proffer to lioness re Leo Africanus, it too fails to support your claim. QUOTE:
Leo Africanus: ” Judaism was the Religion of the ancient Africans for a long Time, and succeeded by Christianity; but Mohometanism prevail’d in the 208th year of the Hegyra, when all the Jews, Christians and Professors of the African Religion that could be found, were put to death;
The only thing is, Leo was not referring to West Africa but the region on which most of his writings are based- the Nile Valley, Egypt, the Middle East. His quote does not apply to West Africa. Hence, once again, your “supporting” reference does not support what you are claiming it does.
3. Parfitt clearly states on page 4 of his book (Black Jews in Africa and the Americas) that according to longstanding European tradition, the Jews were always known to be black both metaphorically AND literally. I already emphasized the literal part once before, did you miss it? Here it is once again:
"A long European tradition maintained that the Jews, in general, were certainly 'black' metaphorically, in the sense that they were diabolical and evil, as well as black literally."
"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 4 (2013) Harvard University Press
No I didn’t “miss” it. What you are conveniently ducking and dodging is what has been already detailed above. Parfitt is talking about disparaging commentary by Europeans against Jews, by comparing and linking them to negroes or blacks. It has nothing to do with West Africans having Judaism as their religion, nor does it lend any support for your “Jerusalem saddle up and go to Africa” approach. You left out the following from page 4 of Parkitt:
--------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- A long Euro pe an tradition maintained that the Jews, in general, were certainly “black” meta phor ical ly, in the sense that they were diabolical and evil, as well as black literally. One Christian critic of the supposedly “Jewish” pope Anacletus II, elected in 1130, hinted that Jews were generally regarded as dark when he noted that the pope was “dark and pale, more like a Jew or an Arab than a Christian.” Sir William Brereton (1604– 1661), the English parliamentarian, soldier, and writer, happened to visit a Sephardi synagogue in Amsterdam, where he commented that the Jews were very dark- skinned and lascivious—“they were most black . . . and insatiably given unto women.”14 In his New Voyage to Italy (1714), François Maximilian Misson (c. 1650– 1722), the French writer and traveler, confi rms that the general supposition was that Jews were black when he noted that all Jews were black, although only Portuguese Jews started off black:. “ --------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------
Some of this commentary notes that yes some Jews are dark-skinned but it does nothing to help your “West Africans” theory. The critic of the “Jew pope” also notes that Arabs are also dark-skinnad. The English critic was visiting Amsterdam Holland, not West Africa when he claimed Jews were dark-skinned. The French guy Misson did not travel to West Africa, but rather Italy and later on the East Indies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilien_Misson None of these people ever went to West Africa, and they are not referring to West Africans.
Burt even if they actually went to West Africa and saw some dark-skinnad Jewz your argument would fail anyway, both as to Judaism being the religion of the West Africans, or the claimed “migration from Jerusalem” approach.
Both "Black Hebe" notions are bullshiiiit, and fail repeatedly. Some people drink from the fountain of knowledge. It looks like you just gargled.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Tazarah
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova: Tazarah says: . I never stated that the religion of the LOCATION of ancient West Africa was Judaism, I simply said the people (West AFRICANS), hence the usage of the word West AFRICANS (emphasis on the people), as opposed to west AFRICA (the location) -- nor did I ever insinuate that the source I quoted from made any claims about the religion of the LOCATION of West Africa -- but rather the PEOPLE. I'm not backtracking at all, you just aren't comprehending what's being said.
LOL, you have been caught out in source misrepresentation, and now you are trying to backtrack your way out by obfuscation. Yes, you said “West Africans”- and that claim has been severely debunked. You are now trying to create a red herring by claiming that you were not referring to “location.” But no one ever said you were referring to any “location.” The red herring does not work. We all know you were referring to “people” i.e. “West Africans” and based on your own “people” statement your argument fails.
2. I've posted several sources in this thread that all corroborate every claim I've made about the Jews being black/negro people who either migrated to West Africa from Jerusalem after the fall of Jerusalem (the original source being one of them), as well as sources explaining how the black/negro Jews who were banished from Europe ending up in West Africa (the original source once again being one of those sources.
Its all well and good to CLAIM something, but so far you have not produced anything credible in support. Matter of fact your own “supporting” references debunk your claim, as detailed above.
Please refer to my response to the lioness for these sources, as I prefer to keep my responses as brief and to the point as possible to avoid leaving room for deflection, strawman arguments and red herrings.
Now that you are called out you want to be “brief” and “to the point”. But your own references undermine the claims you are trying to make > Now as to what you proffer to lioness re Leo Africanus, it too fails to support your claim. QUOTE:
Leo Africanus: ” Judaism was the Religion of the ancient Africans for a long Time, and succeeded by Christianity; but Mohometanism prevail’d in the 208th year of the Hegyra, when all the Jews, Christians and Professors of the African Religion that could be found, were put to death;
The only thing is, Leo was not referring to West Africa but the region on which most of his writings are based- the Nile Valley, Egypt, the Middle East. His quote does not apply to West Africa. Hence, once again, your “supporting” reference does not support what you are claiming it does.
3. Parfitt clearly states on page 4 of his book (Black Jews in Africa and the Americas) that according to longstanding European tradition, the Jews were always known to be black both metaphorically AND literally. I already emphasized the literal part once before, did you miss it? Here it is once again:
"A long European tradition maintained that the Jews, in general, were certainly 'black' metaphorically, in the sense that they were diabolical and evil, as well as black literally."
"Black Jews in Africa and the Americas" by Tudor Parfitt, page 4 (2013) Harvard University Press
No I didn’t “miss” it. What you are conveniently ducking and dodging is what has been already detailed above. Parfitt is talking about disparaging commentary by Europeans against Jews, by comparing and linking them to negroes or blacks. It has nothing to do with West Africans having Judaism as their religion, nor does it lend any support for your “Jerusalem saddle up and go to Africa” approach. You left out the following from page 4 of Parkitt:
--------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- A long Euro pe an tradition maintained that the Jews, in general, were certainly “black” meta phor ical ly, in the sense that they were diabolical and evil, as well as black literally. One Christian critic of the supposedly “Jewish” pope Anacletus II, elected in 1130, hinted that Jews were generally regarded as dark when he noted that the pope was “dark and pale, more like a Jew or an Arab than a Christian.” Sir William Brereton (1604– 1661), the English parliamentarian, soldier, and writer, happened to visit a Sephardi synagogue in Amsterdam, where he commented that the Jews were very dark- skinned and lascivious—“they were most black . . . and insatiably given unto women.”14 In his New Voyage to Italy (1714), François Maximilian Misson (c. 1650– 1722), the French writer and traveler, confi rms that the general supposition was that Jews were black when he noted that all Jews were black, although only Portuguese Jews started off black:. “ --------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------
Some of this commentary notes that yes some Jews are dark-skinned but it does nothing to help your “West Africans” theory. The critic of the “Jew pope” also notes that Arabs are also dark-skinnad. The English critic was visiting Amsterdam Holland, not West Africa when he claimed Jews were dark-skinned. The French guy Misson did not travel to West Africa, but rather Italy and later on the East Indies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilien_Misson None of these people ever went to West Africa, and they are not referring to West Africans.
Burt even if they actually went to West Africa and saw some dark-skinnad Jewz your argument would fail anyway, both as to Judaism being the religion of the West Africans, or the claimed “migration from Jerusalem” approach.
Both notions and bullshiiiit, and fail repeatedly. Some people drink from the fountain of knowledge. It looks like you just gargled.
You have some catching up to do. Go back and read my recent posts about you in this thread.
I've pointed out and exposed several of your blatant lies and I've also posted several more sources that debunk your false claims about the Jews only being labeled black as an insult, and that prove that the Jews were literally black/negro people.
You've failed to even address the first batch of historical sources/references that I've asked you to explain.
Don't know why it's so hard for you to understand that "West Africans" is a people and not a location. If someone were to say "ancient Mexicans", they clearly wouldn't be referring to modern "Mexican" people in Canada or New York, but to the Aztecs whom inhabited Central America.
You've already told so many lies that there isn't really any point in continuing a dialogue with you as it's clear your mission is to obfuscate the truth.
You can't even accept the fact that Parfitt literally said the Jews were known be black both metaphorically AND literally... your argument is that it was only metaphorical, yet Parfitt himself says it was literal as well. How could they hve been LITERALLY black if they weren't literally black?
That's like saying I, a black man, am literally a white man -- but I'm not a white man.
Please, have a seat.
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Tazarah
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@zaharan
Here's a firsthand account from the year 641 AD written by the arab muslims when they first arrived in Egypt to conquer it... they wrote that the Israelites, Abyssinians (Ethiopians) and the Nubians, could not be told apart from one another. Just in case you weren't aware, the latter two are black "sub-saharan" african populations. Let me guess, the arabs didn't really mean what they said and were just saying this to "insult" the Israelites?
Bahahaha... Yawn.
From an original document of the Coptic Church:
"Know that the land of Egypt, when the mussulmans entered it, was full of Christians, but divided among themselves in two sects, both as to race and religion...
...The other portion was the whole people of Egypt, who were called Qibt, and were of mixed descent; among whom one could not distinguish Copt from Abyssinian, Nubian or Israelite; and they were all Jacobites."
"A Short History of the Copts and of Their Church" by The Rev. S.C. Malan, M.A., page 72 (1873) D. Nutt
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