posted
Haven't much looked at them since the uniparental reports came out years and years ago.
They seem somehow somewhat related to African Humid Period Algerian ancestry (pre-Fulani/pre-Amazigh).
Yumadro Would you like to start this ball rolling? I'm trusting you're a Finn and can add that perspective. Maybe even diverse alternative Finnish insights
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This thread is for Saami not remote origins of any major haplogroups, etc. Late Pleistocene to Holocene thru now is the time range. After all, maybe 95% of extant ethnic groups can only trace back to the epi-paleolithic at best.
Everybody please try to stay on topic this 1st pg, please.
On another note: Also please don't let supremacist and their slavepets hi-jack the thread. This is not meant to be a sociology chitchat thread. Please try to overlook any truly irrelevant post.
yumadro Member # 22970
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Finally found this topic again... why is it moved here? Well anyways.
"Generally today it is considered that the first people in Finland have spoken of an unknown Paleo-European language"
Linguistics generally say that first people speaking Finnic languages came to Finland only 1500 years ago during the Migration Period of Europe which turned the European demography into what it is now. Even Saami people speak a Finnic language, but they may have borrowed it from newcomers while same time forgetting their own paleo-European language.
Most common haplogroups in Saami are V and U. Highest concentration of haplogroup V in Europe is found in the areas of Sami people and next highest is found in Iberian peninsula among Basques. It is also found quite high in people of Tuareg inhabiting the Gorom-Gorom area in Burkina Faso (21%), Sahrawi in Western Sahara (17.9%), and Berbers of Matmata, Tunisia (16.3%). The rare V7a subclade occurs among Algerians in Oran (1.08%) and Reguibate Sahrawi (1.85%).
Did Saami speak Basque or related language? Were Saami speaking African language originally? Nobody can answer those questions because there is no samples left in history, but it is still quite intriquing finding that Europe's last Paleo-European language really is African language and based on the latest findings in genetics it may be quite possible.
Tukuler Member # 19944
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Thanks for your info packed post.
Are Saami the far northern people herding and riding reindeer I saw in social studies books as a child?
BTW this query Saami site:www.egyptsearch.com will give you what's been posted here on Saami in case you might want to comment or critique.
Sami site:www.egyptsearch.com also works but returns some non-Saami hits I hope the following term isn't derogatory in any way Lapp site:www.egyptsearch.com picks up the rest of ES Saami related stuff.
Tukuler Member # 19944
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Human variety has always fascinated me. Seems we have more "breeds" than any species does. Ive known Swedes Danes and Lithuanians but never met a Finn.
My uninformed view? Why? Because I got SWAG (a sophisticated wild ass guess) Some early-mid Holocene 'Algerians' (pre-Fulani, pre-'Berber') went and mingled way up north there. After that 1st contact 'Algerian' bi-ethnic far northerners got the back-to-Africa homesick blues.
More of your views if you please.
Are there relationships to or with any of the circum-polar peoples or just with Baltic and North Seas populations.
Do you think the Vanir of Norse mythology rep Saami? Skaadi have anything to do with Saami?
yumadro Member # 22970
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"It is thought that the Saami descended from a distinct sub-group of Europeans who settled the northern Fennoscandia, which means the northern areas of Finland, Norway, Sweden and the Kola peninsula of Russia, several thousands of years ago [1,2]. There is no close genetic relationship between the Saami and the Finns
We were unable to distinguish between the Finns and either the Swiss or Sardinian reference populations, whereas the Finnish Saami clearly stood apart. The Finnish Saami are distinct from other Circumarctic populations, although two of the lineages found among the Saami showed closer relationship to the Circumarctic than to the European lineages."
University of Helsinki says that the genetic distance between Samoyedic people and Saami people is higher than the distance between Danish and Samoyedic people. The Finns, however, are more related to the Samoyedic people than either. University of Helsinki also says that there's no relationship between Saami and other Circumarctic people.
Father-lines (yDNA) is more related to the Finnic people, but it may be explainable by Finnish invaders. Finnish invaders probably took the women of Saami people as their wives and killed the men of Saami people. The invasions also could explain why the original Paleo-European language has died out.
Tukuler Member # 19944
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Thx again.
Is there Sapmi consciousness or a Sapmi cultural/political movement?
yumadro Member # 22970
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Thx again.
Is there Sapmi consciousness or a Sapmi cultural/political movement?
There are multiple unofficial organizations that work for protecting and supporting Saami lifestyle and culture and there's also official Saami parliament which works for protecting and supporting Saami lifestyle and culture in all 4 countries in which Saami people live. The Saami parliament also works together with the United Nations and with organizations that are protecting and supporting the lifestyles and cultures of indigenous people of the world.
The pursuit of independence of Saami nation, however, is unheard.
the lioness, Member # 17353
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yumadro Member # 22970
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The men on the left resemble Siberians in my opinion
the most common Y-DNA haplogroup among the Sami is is Haplogroup N-M231 It is most commonly found in males originating from northern Eurasia. It also has been observed at lower frequencies in populations native to other regions, including the Balkans, East Asia, Central Asia and the Pacific. Its highest frequency occurs among ethnic Finnic peoples and Baltic-speaking peoples of northern Europe, the Ob-Ugric-speaking and Northern Samoyed peoples of western Siberia, and the Siberian Turkic-speaking Yakuts
Haplogroup N, however, is found far less in Saami people than in Finnish people and it is proposed that the introduction of haplogroup N in Saami is because of Finnish invasions of Finland.
Only around 40% of Saami men belong to haplogroup N while 65% of Finnish men belong to it.
the lioness, Member # 17353
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Which Y DNA haplgroup do you think is most representative of the Saami?
yumadro Member # 22970
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: yumadro, please go back to your post and delete the photos. I only say this because it's repetitive
Which Y DNA haplgroup do you think is most representative of the Saami?
yDNA N is the most common, I next most common and R1 third most common, but it is proposed that the men of Saami people were replaced when the Finnish people (mostly men) came around 1500 years ago and conquered the Saami lands.
University of Helsinki explains: "In the light of MtDNA and Y-DNA studies it seems clear that Sámi's Ancestors came from different directions of the air. This explanation is most compatible with most of the archaeological evidence."
Most common language ancestor of Saami people is only around 1300 years old. Fits well with the theory that the Saami people got their language from Finnish invaders who came around 1500 years ago to Finland.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: yumadro, please go back to your post and delete the photos. I only say this because it's repetitive
Which Y DNA haplgroup do you think is most representative of the Saami?
yDNA N is the most common, I next most common and R1 third most common, but it is proposed that the men of Saami people were replaced when the Finnish people (mostly men) came around 1500 years ago and conquered the Saami lands.
University of Helsinki explains: "In the light of MtDNA and Y-DNA studies it seems clear that Sámi's Ancestors came from different directions of the air. This explanation is most compatible with most of the archaeological evidence."
Most common language ancestor of Saami people is only around 1300 years old. Fits well with the theory that the Saami people got their language from Finnish invaders who came around 1500 years ago to Finland.
I'm asking which Y DNA haplgroup do you think is most representative of the Saami prior to Finnish?
It's a problem. The bodies don't survive hundreds or thousands of years here so it's not possible to know for sure. The oldest bodies of Saami people that have been studied are from 14th century. The Saami people of Kola peninsula have some amount of haplogroup E which is one of the oldest haplogroups in Europe preceding even the I and R1 and originates from Africa like the mtDNA of Saami people.
the lioness, Member # 17353
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yumadro Member # 22970
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Kalevi Wiik, a professor of phonetics at the University of Turku Finland has theorized that the Saami people are related to the Basques and originally spoke the Basque language or similar language. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalevi_Wiik
Saami people were originally known as Finns in Nordic countries. Norway called Saami people Finns and Finnic people as Kvens. Even the Roman historian Tacitus called people living Fennoscandia as Fenni which clearly has a connection with name Finn. In the timeline of when Tacitus lived the Finnic Finns didn't live in Finland so the Fenni must have been Saami people and thus also the black Finns living in Scandinavia and invading Shetlands must have been Saami people.
"A Norwegian chieftain Geirmund Heljarskinn and his twin brother Håmund, born in 850 in the province of Rogaland were reported to have very dark skin and some prominent East Asian facial features."
The description seems oddly much like the Geirmun Heljarskinn were actually a black Saami.
the lioness, Member # 17353
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yumadro Member # 22970
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: yumadro are you Saami ?
No, I'm not. We have a genealogy done all the way to the 1600s and I don't think there's even single Saami in the entire family.
the lioness, Member # 17353
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yumadro Member # 22970
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by yumadro:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: yumadro are you Saami ?
No, I'm not. We have a genealogy done all the way to the 1600s and I don't think there's even single Saami in the entire family.
you're Finnish though?
Yes, that's correct.
the lioness, Member # 17353
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the lioness, Member # 17353
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yumadro Member # 22970
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I think that Anders Andersen Anto is what the Saami looked originally and the others are what have born when the albino Mongols, the Finns came to Finland.
Finns are more related to the Eastern population groups like the Samoyed people and probably looked like that when they came. Finns and Saami, however, have lost that eastern look when they intermixed with the Caucasian albinos as Finland was nearly 800 years under control of Swedes & Russians.
SaxonQueen Member # 22837
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quote:Originally posted by yumadro: I think that Anders Andersen Anto is what the Saami looked originally and the others are what have born when the albino Mongols, the Finns came to Finland.
Finns are more related to the Eastern population groups like the Samoyed people and probably looked like that when they came. Finns and Saami, however, have lost that eastern look when they intermixed with the Caucasian albinos as Finland was nearly 800 years under control of Swedes & Russians.
I thought racist epithets were not allowed on this forum???? A mod needs to fix this thanks.
yumadro Member # 22970
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quote:Originally posted by SaxonQueen:
quote:Originally posted by yumadro: I think that Anders Andersen Anto is what the Saami looked originally and the others are what have born when the albino Mongols, the Finns came to Finland.
Finns are more related to the Eastern population groups like the Samoyed people and probably looked like that when they came. Finns and Saami, however, have lost that eastern look when they intermixed with the Caucasian albinos as Finland was nearly 800 years under control of Swedes & Russians.
I thought racist epithets were not allowed on this forum???? A mod needs to fix this thanks.
There's nothing racist about being born with a defective gene or with defective genes. They are what they are.
the lioness, Member # 17353
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Tukuler Member # 19944
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If you can sling racialist shit like
quote:Originally posted by SaxonQueen:
Afrocentric, Anti-White, Black supremacists such as J.A. Rogers
Afrocentric Anti-White,Black supremacist
Still waiting for that proof Anti-White.
that provokes using albino then I see nothing wrong calling you and your ilk albino.
Only whites and their negro sycophants would even consider your plea considering your own antagonistic tone.
SaxonQueen Member # 22837
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Tukuler none of what I said was a racist epithet LOL.
Afrocentric- not a racist epithet. You lot even call your own selves Afrocentric LOL.
Anti-White- meaning against White people, hating White people. Again not a racist epithet.
Black supremacist- Believing Blacks are superior to Whites, etc. Not a racist epithet
Albino- claiming Whites are inferior and are genetic defects = racist epithet.
SaxonQueen Member # 22837
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Yumadro
Albino is a racist epithet that you and your ilk use towards White people and it is not allowed. I won't get into the whole Whites aren't albinos bs on this thread as that's not the topic.
yumadro Member # 22970
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quote:Originally posted by SaxonQueen: Yumadro
Albino is a racist epithet that you and your ilk use towards White people and it is not allowed. I won't get into the whole Whites aren't albinos bs on this thread as that's not the topic.
The same disfunctioning genes that cause albinism are also the reason why Europeans are white. How's that not albinism?
the lioness, Member # 17353
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Tukuler Member # 19944
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Stop it right now.
If posyers wanna "have a medical discussion" THEN DO IT.
tL has no control over MY thread. This is not DESHRET forum. Best he can do is get her cronies to fox the thread.
I'm tired of non-black moderators telling blacks what we can or can't discuss on a majority black board.
For centuries my people have been labeled by a condition due to genes everybody has.
And I have read regular internet white folk hypothesise albinism as the reason for OOA. Based in part on albinism in E Afr and some E Afrs very violent reaction against albinos. I do not advocate capital A albino usage. And for the sake of peace discourage it.
But so what? This is the Trump Age. where race baiters are "fine people" who's interests to provoke are shielded while they point a finger and shout shout mad racist mad racist but contribute doodelysquat to a threads topic.
yumadro Member # 22970
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The British Quarterly Review from 1845 calls Laplanders dark-complexioned.
Encyclopædia Britannica 1824 calls Laplanders having swarthy (black or brown) skin:
the lioness, Member # 17353
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Fourty2Tribes Member # 21799
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quote:Originally posted by SaxonQueen: Tukuler none of what I said was a racist epithet LOL.
Afrocentric- not a racist epithet. You lot even call your own selves Afrocentric LOL.
Anti-White- meaning against White people, hating White people. Again not a racist epithet.
Black supremacist- Believing Blacks are superior to Whites, etc. Not a racist epithet
Albino- claiming Whites are inferior and are genetic defects = racist epithet.
White people are objectively nonsyndromic albinos its the same as calling dark skin people melinated. I realize its not PC to bring it like that which is why I always try to say its a fluctuation and not a mutation.
SaxonQueen Member # 22837
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Fourty2Tribes
No Whites are not albinos, we do not have albinism. Albinos can not go out in the sun without protection for their skin. I'm White and during the summer I spend hours at a time out in the sun, sometimes all day, very rarely if ever do I burn and I never wear sunblock. The last time I got burned was when I was a teenager and allowed my friends to persuade me to put on dark tanning suntan oil (not sunblock there's a difference).
Tukuler Member # 19944
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SQ why not stfu and go away. You contribute(d) absolutely nothing about Saami. Take yr asz to boards who outright call blacks all kinds of epithets and tell yo ppl to quit it. Otherwise stfu! MY THREAD is for learning about SAAMI. STOP detracting NOW. Nobody gives a ratz asz if you tan burn or have melanoma. Open a SQ thread for your autobiography. I'm sure you'll draw plenty replies though that's outside your agenda to disrupt topics. You could do that better by getting mgmt to make you a moderator. I'm sure they'd love to.
Euro whites were the first to propose endemic albinism to explain their color. Nonsyndromic is a decent way to think of albinoid populations who don't suffer its worst affects. Just a trait, similar to sicklecell trait whose carriers have not full blown sickle cell.
Fourty2Tribes Member # 21799
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quote:Originally posted by SaxonQueen: Fourty2Tribes
No Whites are not albinos, we do not have albinism. Albinos can not go out in the sun without protection for their skin. I'm White and during the summer I spend hours at a time out in the sun, sometimes all day, very rarely if ever do I burn and I never wear sunblock. The last time I got burned was when I was a teenager and allowed my friends to persuade me to put on dark tanning suntan oil (not sunblock there's a difference).
The symptoms of albinism include skin that can tan. Its not all pink eyes and milk white.
Her scalp is whiter than her face.
She is obviously has some color but would still be considered an albino. If it makes you feel better all humans are albino.
Just that most have melanin. If that melanin fluctuates
posted
Anyone who is seriously completing a literary criticism course will look to the literary criticism of major critics or analysts of the pieces you need to review. If you are at an academic institution, you need merely investigate the online services to which your university is subscribed https://glasstellers.com/justbuyessay-com-review/.
Tukuler Member # 19944
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Bots are overrunning ES as designed But dammitt keep that spam out my thread If Sam will let you.
yumadro Member # 22970
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Colonization of the Savo started by Finns in the 1300s and it reached its peak by the order of Swedish king Gustav Vasa in the year 1542 but it wasn't over until very late of 1700s. The order of Swedish king Gustav Vasa claimed that Savo was empty land and needs to be colonized, but the archeological evidence doesn't support the claim. It is commonly known here that the Saami people inhabited Savo, but they had to move out because of the Finnish settlers and those who didn't move away were killed. There are even today place names in Savo that originate from Saami people. Even the archeological pieces of evidence prove that Savo has been inhabited for thousands of years.
Whenever you study the history of the settling of Finland, it looks and the claims sound very similar to how America was colonized and how the white people claimed how it was empty land. Finland may have had no colonies in America or Africa, but we for sure have our own history of colonialism and genocide of the original inhabitants. Sadly, my mother's family was one of those settlers that moved to the Savo and today it is one of the largest families in the Savo and in whole Finland.
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Here is some data, I think will be useful for you in your quest.
quote: “Given our results, it remains possible that the PWC represent remnants of a larger northern European Mesolithic hunter-gather complex. However, it appears unlikely that population continuity exists between the PWC and contemporary Scandinavians or Saami. Thus, our findings are in agreement with archaeological theories suggesting Neolithic or post-Neolithic population introgression or replacement in Scandinavia.”
[...]
“The driving force behind the transition from a foraging to a farming lifestyle in prehistoric Europe (Neolithization) has been debated for more than a century 1, 2 and 3. Of particular interest is whether population replacement or cultural exchange was responsible 3, 4 and 5. Scandinavia holds a unique place in this debate, for it maintained one of the last major hunter-gatherer complexes in Neolithic Europe, the Pitted Ware culture [6]. Intriguingly, these late hunter-gatherers existed in parallel to early farmers for more than a millennium before they vanished some 4,000 years ago 7 and 8. The prolonged coexistence of the two cultures in Scandinavia has been cited as an argument against population replacement between the Mesolithic and the present 7 and 8. Through analysis of DNA extracted from ancient Scandinavian human remains, we show that people of the Pitted Ware culture were not the direct ancestors of modern Scandinavians (including the Saami people of northern Scandinavia) but are more closely related to contemporary populations of the eastern Baltic region. Our findings support hypotheses arising from archaeological analyses that propose a Neolithic or post-Neolithic population replacement in Scandinavia [7]. Furthermore, our data are consistent with the view that the eastern Baltic represents a genetic refugia for some of the European hunter-gatherer populations.”
~Helena Malmström Ancient DNA Reveals Lack of Continuity between Neolithic Hunter-Gatherers and Contemporary Scandinavians
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I found an interesting image of Saami people taken in the year 1923.
Picture is from the collections of Finnish National Board of Antiquities. The man on the right is a Finnish tourist.
DD'eDeN Member # 21966
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Haplogroup N, however, is found far less in Saami people than in Finnish people and it is proposed that the introduction of haplogroup N in Saami is because of Finnish invasions of Finland. ---
Just as the agricultural-pastoral Bantu & Sudanic speakers have overwhelmed the Congo Pygmy languages, so the Agricultural-Pastoral Finn/Hun males overtook the Sami males.
yumadro Member # 22970
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quote:Originally posted by DD'eDeN: Haplogroup N, however, is found far less in Saami people than in Finnish people and it is proposed that the introduction of haplogroup N in Saami is because of Finnish invasions of Finland. ---
Just as the agricultural-pastoral Bantu & Sudanic speakers have overwhelmed the Congo Pygmy languages, so the Agricultural-Pastoral Finn/Hun males overtook the Sami males.
Exactly and the Saami people were forcibly sterilized in Finland from 1935 to 1970 because of the eugenics and their kids were taken in custody. It probably targeted the Saami people with darker complexion which explains why today's Saami people are overwhelmingly white. Other Scandinavian countries and Russia had similar eugenics programs.
yumadro Member # 22970
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More old pictures of Saami people:
yumadro Member # 22970
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Jussi Ylikoski has made an interesting teaching materials / presentation about Saami people and Finnish history.
People spoke Paleo-European languages 2000 years ago in Finland, but the trade and intermixing of Baltic people, Finnic people, Germanic people and Saami people there was a new language born which is the Pre-Saami language from which modern Saami languages descend.
Image which shows the migration of Saami (or Finnic) people from Southern Finland to the Northern Finland:
Originally Saami people lived everywhere but from 500 AD the Finnic, Baltic and Germanic people started to move to Finland and drove the Saami people away. Now Saami people live only at the very North of Finland and Scandinavia.
Pages 10 and 11 connect Saami languages with Uralic languages to the same language family and later pages explains the connections by showing word examples, but you all need to remember that Saami people spoke originally Paleo-European language(s) and the Saami languages were born from mixing with the invaders. There's still place names in Finland which do not come from any known languages.
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