quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:
There is no such thing as Berber blood. Berber is a culture and a set of languages.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evergreen:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:
There is no such thing as Berber blood. Berber is a culture and a set of languages.

---

Yes of course. I was being facetious. 🤷🏾‍♂️

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
So what does the clear distinct regional genomic ancestry throughout taMazgha count for, regardless if a geographic population member now speaks Arabic, whereas their lineal forbears were talking taMazight?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evergreen:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-95996-3#ref-CR27

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evergreen:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-95996-3#ref-CR27

---

quote:

---

The first scenario would imply that pre-Islamic populations in North Africa would be genetically similar to UE2298/MS060 (or possibly to other contemporary individuals found in Spain6). The nearest temporal proxy available are the Guanches (from the seventh–eleventh centuries CE), who originated in the Maghreb but have been isolated in the Canary Islands since at least the early Iron Age. D-statistics, however, suggest that UE2298/MS060 is genetically closer to Morocco_LN than to the Guanches (Supplementary Table S7).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by HotepBoy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evergreen:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-95996-3#ref-CR27

---

in black bodies ?? The article talks about this andalusian muslim being a mix between north african and iberian ancestry. He plot close to Morocco_LN who clusters between Iberia and modern north africa.

Nothing black here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HotepBoy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evergreen:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-95996-3#ref-CR27

---

in black bodies ?? The article talks about this andalusian muslim being a mix between north african and iberian ancestry. He plot close to Morocco_LN who clusters between Iberia and modern north africa.

Nothing black here.

---

I think a previous study pointed out the morphology of the person in question had SSA characteristics.

---

This is what the paper says :

"The subsequent anthropological analysis suggested some African morphological features and a link was postulated to the Berber-speaking populations that settled in the region in medieval times26,27."


The paper they're referring to isn't even about the same individual and doesn't mention ssa features. This is the only relevant information from their paper (translated) :

"A priori, from the data obtained from this skeleton, we have not found significant differences with the dental size of contemporary populations."

https://www.academia.edu/24668363/ESTUDIO_ANTROPOL%C3%93GICO_Y_PALEOPATOL%C3%93GICO


The second paper talks about this individual being physically caucasoid mediterranean but similar to modern day berbers (which implies some negroid influences) :


"is a young adult, between 20 and 25 years old, male, with a height between 184-190cm. He belongs to the Caucasian group, Mediterranean subgroup and, within this, gracile Mediterranean with a certain Negroid component. Historically it could be a Berber individual."



Barrachina, A. La necròpolis islàmica de la plaça de l’Almudín, Sogorb (Alt Palància). Estudi antropològic i cronològic.

you can find the pdf on google scholar. He's clearly not a mix of SSA+iberian so there is no reason to believe he was black or half black except maybe a few ssa % from his north african side. He's even more northern shifted than modern north africans let alone being black.
 

---

Posted by Mansamusa (Member # 22474) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by HotepBoy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HotepBoy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evergreen:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-95996-3#ref-CR27

---

in black bodies ?? The article talks about this andalusian muslim being a mix between north african and iberian ancestry. He plot close to Morocco_LN who clusters between Iberia and modern north africa.

Nothing black here.

---

I think a previous study pointed out the morphology of the person in question had SSA characteristics.

---

This is what the paper says :

"The subsequent anthropological analysis suggested some African morphological features and a link was postulated to the Berber-speaking populations that settled in the region in medieval times26,27."


The paper they're referring to isn't even about the same individual and doesn't mention ssa features. This is the only relevant information from their paper (translated) :

"A priori, from the data obtained from this skeleton, we have not found significant differences with the dental size of contemporary populations."

https://www.academia.edu/24668363/ESTUDIO_ANTROPOL%C3%93GICO_Y_PALEOPATOL%C3%93GICO


The second paper talks about this individual being physically caucasoid mediterranean but similar to modern day berbers (which implies some negroid influences) :


"is a young adult, between 20 and 25 years old, male, with a height between 184-190cm. He belongs to the Caucasian group, Mediterranean subgroup and, within this, gracile Mediterranean with a certain Negroid component. Historically it could be a Berber individual."



Barrachina, A. La necròpolis islàmica de la plaça de l’Almudín, Sogorb (Alt Palància). Estudi antropològic i cronològic.

you can find the pdf on google scholar. He's clearly not a mix of SSA+iberian so there is no reason to believe he was black or half black except maybe a few ssa % from his north african side. He's even more northern shifted than modern north africans let alone being black.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HotepBoy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HotepBoy:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Evergreen:
[qb] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-95996-3#ref-CR27

---

in black bodies ?? The article talks about this andalusian muslim being a mix between north african and iberian ancestry. He plot close to Morocco_LN who clusters between Iberia and modern north africa.

Nothing black here.

---

I think a previous study pointed out the morphology of the person in question had SSA characteristics.

---

I guess Negroid component means he has SSA affinity. The Mediterranean Caucasoid stuff sounds like race science, which is not science at all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by HotepBoy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HotepBoy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HotepBoy:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Evergreen:
[qb] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-95996-3#ref-CR27

---

in black bodies ?? The article talks about this andalusian muslim being a mix between north african and iberian ancestry. He plot close to Morocco_LN who clusters between Iberia and modern north africa.

Nothing black here.

---

I think a previous study pointed out the morphology of the person in question had SSA characteristics.

---

I guess Negroid component means he has SSA affinity. The Mediterranean Caucasoid stuff sounds like race science, which is not science at all.

---

Such categories are still used in forensic anthropology (you should start reading more papers on the subject) also I don't understand why you have a problem with this but not with the "negroid" part ?

And his haplogroups/autosomal show no particular ssa affinity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HotepBoy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HotepBoy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HotepBoy:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Evergreen:
[qb] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-95996-3#ref-CR27

---

in black bodies ?? The article talks about this andalusian muslim being a mix between north african and iberian ancestry. He plot close to Morocco_LN who clusters between Iberia and modern north africa.

Nothing black here.

---

I think a previous study pointed out the morphology of the person in question had SSA characteristics.

---

I guess Negroid component means he has SSA affinity. The Mediterranean Caucasoid stuff sounds like race science, which is not science at all.

---

Such categories are still used in forensic anthropology (you should start reading more papers on the subject) also I don't understand why you have a problem with this but not with the "negroid" part ?

And his haplogroups/autosomal show no particular ssa affinity.

---

Negroid is not my choice of words. I said his morphology showed SSA affinity. E1b1b1b1 and U6a are well-distributed in S. West Africa, including SSA.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
Can you please elaborate on your resolution from this study. I'm honestly not following what your hinting at by the thread title.

I might've have missed the phenotypic data related to his skin color.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by HotepBoy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HotepBoy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HotepBoy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HotepBoy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evergreen:
[qb] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-95996-3#ref-CR27

---

in black bodies ?? The article talks about this andalusian muslim being a mix between north african and iberian ancestry. He plot close to Morocco_LN who clusters between Iberia and modern north africa.

Nothing black here.

---

I think a previous study pointed out the morphology of the person in question had SSA characteristics.

---

I guess Negroid component means he has SSA affinity. The Mediterranean Caucasoid stuff sounds like race science, which is not science at all.

---

Such categories are still used in forensic anthropology (you should start reading more papers on the subject) also I don't understand why you have a problem with this but not with the "negroid" part ?

And his haplogroups/autosomal show no particular ssa affinity.

---

Negroid is not my choice of words. I said his morphology showed SSA affinity. E1b1b1b1 and U6a are well-distributed in S. West Africa, including SSA.

---

You had a problem with the fact they recognized gracile mediterranean features but you don't have that kind of problem when they also found some negroid influences. It seems "race science" is only okay when it fits your narrative.

---

We know what Negroid means. It is a term used in modern forensics. Gracile Mediterranean, on the other hand, can be used to describe a wide range of populations from N. Africa, East Africa, etc. And you also know that words like caucasoid have even been used to describe "Black" Africans who do not meet the stereotypical definition of SSA.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
Can you please elaborate on your resolution from this study. I'm honestly not following what your hinting at by the thread title.

I might've have missed the phenotypic data related to his skin color.

---

I have to agree with Elmaestro here. By the 11th century AD, North Africa probably would have been home to a diversity of phenotypes. There were doubtless some Black people still living in the region (some of them being migrants from SSA and others possibly being Iberomaurisian-like aboriginals), but there would have been lighter-skinned people of Iberian, Phoenician, Roman, etc. descent also hanging around the area. So I would hesitate to conclude that the individual being studied would have necessarily looked "Black" without phenotypic analyses coming out.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:



We know what Negroid means. It is a term used in modern forensics. Gracile Mediterranean, on the other hand, can be used to describe a wide range of populations from N. Africa, East Africa, etc. And you also know that words like caucasoid have even been used to describe "Black" Africans who do not meet the stereotypical definition of SSA.

I never claimed that these lineages are not from N. Africa. They most likely are. But E-M81 is like about 2000-3000 years old and descended from E1b1b, a common SSA Y haplogroup. Hence, the "Negroid component."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:
"If you want to go into the "haplogroup E is SSA" then you would have to go back to the Paleolithic at least lol. UP north africans themselves were already very different compared to modern SSAs but you want us to believe that a medieval andalusian had a black north african parent ? Come on be serious"

Modern SSAs did not exist during the Paeleolithic. So what's your point? I said the ancient individual in question had SSA affinity. Who said that he had a Black, African parent?

ANA is probably the link between N. Africans and SSAs, and is likely responsible for spreading ancestry into both of these groups. So it's not a matter of N. Africans getting ancestry from "Black" Africans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
The DNA from one body in ancient Spain does not tell us anything about the overall composition of the Islamic armies. It is also nonsense to try and extrapolate from this into broad claims about North Africa. Most ancient North Africans weren't mixed with Spanish.

---

quote:

---

In the southeast, we recovered genomic data from 45 individuals dated between the 3rd and 16th centuries CE. All analyzed individuals fell outside the genetic variation of preceding Iberian Iron Age populations (Fig. 1, C and D, and fig. S3) and harbored ancestry from both Southern European and North African populations (Fig. 2D), as well as additional Levantine-related ancestry that could potentially reflect ancestry from Jewish groups (21). These results demonstrate that by the Roman period, southern Iberia had experienced a major influx of North African ancestry, probably related to the well-known mobility patterns during the Roman Empire (22) or to the earlier Phoenician-Punic presence (23); the latter is also supported by the observation of the Phoenician-associated Y-chromosome J2 (24). Gene flow from North Africa continued into the Muslim period, as is clear from Muslim burials with elevated North African and sub-Saharan African ancestry (Fig. 2D, fig. S4, and table S22) and from uniparental markers typical of North Africa not present among pre-Islamic individuals (Fig. 2D and fig. S11). Present-day populations from southern Iberia harbor less North African ancestry (25) than the ancient Muslim burials, plausibly reflecting expulsion of moriscos (former Muslims converted to Christianity) and repopulation from the north, as supported by historical sources and genetic analysis of present-day groups (25). The impact of Muslim rule is also evident in northeast Iberia in seven individuals from Sant Julià de Ramis from the 8th to 12th centuries CE who, unlike previous ancient individuals from the same region, show North African–related ancestry (Fig. 2C and table S19) and a complete overlap in PCA with present-day Iberians (Fig. 1D).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evergreen:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-95996-3#ref-CR27

---

I'm confused. What what does the paper have to do with the topic??

By the way, the original phrase was "Berber blood in Negro bodies" as expressed by old time anthropologist Lloyd Cabot Briggs in his description of the Teda people of the Sahara.

A Review of the Physical Anthropology of the Sahara and Its Prehistoric Implications L. Cabot Briggs Man, Vol. 57, Feb., 1957 (Feb., 1957), pp. 20

The Teda
The essentially nomadic and semi-nomadic pastoral bandit Teda have often been supposed to represent the oldest surviving human strain in the Sahara. As far as their outward appearance goes, both metrically and morphologically, they look like half-Hamites, such as the Shilluk and the Dinka, and they speak Sudanic dialects. But their ABO blood-group distributions follow a typically Berber pattern, high in O and very low in B, whereas the Sudanese half-Hamites, as well as Negroes in general , all show high or very high B percentages. Thus the Teda appear to have Berber blood in Negro bodies...

In the same work Briggs also talks about the Moors who display the converse characteristics-- "Negro blood in Berber Bodies"

All of this shows the fallacy in racializing blood-groupings. Such was discussed before, and I even brought it up when discussing the Teda's genetic ties to the Nubians here, the latter also show the same high frequency of type O, so-called "Berber blood".

By the way, below is a good source on blood group distributions in global populations:

https://www2.palomar.edu/anthro/vary/vary_3.htm

Conclusion

These patterns of ABO, Rh, and Diego blood type distributions are not similar to those for skin color or other so-called "racial" traits. The implication is that the specific causes responsible for the distribution of human blood types have been different than those for other traits that have been commonly employed to categorize people into "races." Since it would be possible to divide up humanity into radically different groupings using blood typing instead of other genetically inherited traits such as skin color, we have more conclusive evidence that the commonly used typological model for understanding human variation is scientifically unsound.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by HotepBoy:

The second paper talks about this individual being physically caucasoid mediterranean but similar to modern day berbers (which implies some negroid influences) :

"is a young adult, between 20 and 25 years old, male, with a height between 184-190cm. He belongs to the Caucasian group, Mediterranean subgroup and, within this, gracile Mediterranean with a certain Negroid component. Historically it could be a Berber individual."



Barrachina, A. La necròpolis islàmica de la plaça de l’Almudín, Sogorb (Alt Palància). Estudi antropològic i cronològic.

you can find the pdf on google scholar. He's clearly not a mix of SSA+iberian so there is no reason to believe he was black or half black except maybe a few ssa % from his north african side. He's even more northern shifted than modern north africans let alone being black.

---

Apparently you are unaware of the fact that historically in the field of physical anthropology the description of "gracile Mediterranean" especially one with "negroid component" as defined by Carleton Coon himself meant something like this fellow!



The man in the above photos was a Shluh Berber photographed by Coon himself to serve as an example of his "small gracile Mediterranean type". It's obvious to anyone with eyes that he's clearly a black man but according to Coon and his ilk black does not mean "negro". So you can play the same racial semantics game as Coon and the other old-time racist anthropologists. The Shluh Berber man and other North Africans like Nubians and even the ancient Egyptians whose murals and painted portraits show mahogany complexions can be as "caucasian" as you want in your mind.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
...
 

---

Posted by mightywolf (Member # 23402) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HotepBoy:


The second paper talks about this individual being physically caucasoid mediterranean but similar to modern day berbers (which implies some negroid influences) :


"is a young adult, between 20 and 25 years old, male, with a height between 184-190cm. He belongs to the Caucasian group, Mediterranean subgroup and, within this, gracile Mediterranean with a certain Negroid component. Historically it could be a Berber individual."



Barrachina, A. La necròpolis islàmica de la plaça de l’Almudín, Sogorb (Alt Palància). Estudi antropològic i cronològic.

you can find the pdf on google scholar. He's clearly not a mix of SSA+iberian so there is no reason to believe he was black or half black except maybe a few ssa % from his north african side. He's even more northern shifted than modern north africans let alone being black.

---

Apparently you are unaware of the fact that historically in the field of physical anthropology the description of "gracile Mediterranean" especially one with "negroid component" as defined by Carleton Coon himself meant something like this fellow!



The man in the above photos was a Shluh Berber photographed by Coon himself to serve as an example of his "small gracile Mediterranean type". It's clear to anyone with eyes that he's clearly a black man but according to Coon and his ilk black does not mean "negro". So you can play the same racial semantics game as Coon and the other old-time racist anthropologists. The Shluh Berber man and other North Africans like Nubians and even the ancient Egyptians whose murals and painted portraits show mahogany complexions can be as "caucasian" as you want in your mind.

---

This Berber man isn't a good example of Gracile Med. However, he doesn't look clearly black either. If anything, he's rather ambiguous looking, in my opinion.
 

---

Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
 
He doesn't look ambigous. Byron Saxton is a Black American former wwe wrestler. Byron feature set isn't a like-for-like comparison to the Berber man but they don't look to dissimilar.






https://static.wrestletalk.com/app/uploads/2019/10/tom-phillips-byron-saxton-r32r32f.jpg
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Thereal, don't bother wasting your time. Both mightywolf and Hotepboy are in denial and subscribe to the "true negro" fallacy where 'black' for them means "true negro" even though 'black' a reference to very dark skin color. A Nubian as dark as ebony is not 'black' to these people.

quote:

---

Originally posted by mightywolf:

This Berber man isn't a good example of Gracile Med. However, he doesn't look clearly black either. If anything, he's rather ambiguous looking, in my opinion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Thereal, don't bother wasting your time. Both mightywolf and Hotepboy are in denial and subscribe to the "true negro" fallacy where 'black' for them means "true negro" even though 'black' a reference to very dark skin color. A Nubian as dark as ebony is not 'black' to these people.

---

To be honest, even when referencing pigmentation alone, "black" is imprecise, especially since very few if any people on earth are literally black in color. To some people, only those with the darkest skin (or Type VI on the Fitzpatrick scale) would qualify as black-skinned, but then you have people with Type V or even IV skin being called "black" as well. Where would you draw the line?



That said, the Berber individual in that old photo is probably either Type VI or V.
 

---

Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
 
Ah! OK Cool I is European?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Please don't allow the trolls to take this thread off the rails! This is not about skin complexions and who is or isn't black. It is about blood types in different indigenous populations of Africa.


ABO blood groups and hemoglobin variants among Nubians, Egypt, U.A.R.:
Three hundred and fifty‐six Nubians of Upper Egypt were tested for hemoglobin variants and ABO blood groups. No hemoglobin variants were detected. ABO allele frequencies for the Konouz are: A 19.31, B 11.08, O 69.59; for the Arabs — A 22.02, B 9.64, O 68.33; and for the Fedikyaee—A 24.46, B 9.54, O 65.98

Nubians like their Teda kinsmen also represent 'Berber blood in black bodies' if one even considers Nubians to be black that is. LOL
 

---

Posted by mightywolf (Member # 23402) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Thereal, don't bother wasting your time. Both mightywolf and Hotepboy are in denial and subscribe to the "true negro" fallacy where 'black' for them means "true negro" even though 'black' a reference to very dark skin color. A Nubian as dark as ebony is not 'black' to these people.

quote:

---

Originally posted by mightywolf:

This Berber man isn't a good example of Gracile Med. However, he doesn't look clearly black either. If anything, he's rather ambiguous looking, in my opinion.

---

I'm not sure if Coon himself came up with the concept of "gracile Mediterranean" but go and read his Races of Man where he clearly labels that Shluh Berber man a such!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thereal:
He doesn't look ambigous. Byron Saxton is a Black American former wwe wrestler. Byron feature set isn't a like-for-like comparison to the Berber man but they don't look to dissimilar.






https://static.wrestletalk.com/app/uploads/2019/10/tom-phillips-byron-saxton-r32r32f.jpg

---

The thing is, Coon himself saw this Berber man in real, we see him only in an old black and white pic with a certain facial expression. For instance, Coon showed this Southern Euro man as an example for a gracile Med


and he classified this Arab/Yemenite individual as central Mediterranean.


They both don't really resemble this Berber man here. Besides, this former www wrestler looks like some folks who are biracial. You have to consider, that many black Americans can be very mixed even when both parents are Afro-Americans. No offense, I'm just stating my personal opinion.
 

---

Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 
No resolution was added to the OP's thread title or target of discussion.

As a result we have unfocused discourse not reflective of the standards we set for the "Egyptology" section.

This thread will be moved...

///MOD
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
EVERGREEN

If you still have it can you repost what was removed?
It can't be any worse as what's going on now at the forum this thread was booted from.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evergreen:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-95996-3#ref-CR27

MOD:

THIS IS ONE OF TWO OFFENSES OF LOW QUALITY THREAD POSTING. PLEASE PROVIDE MORE RESOLUTION OR FOCUS TO YOUR THREAD TOPICS ALONG WITH SUFFICIENT DATA OR/AND INTELLECTUAL TALKING POINTS WHEN POSTING IN THE EGYPTOLOGY SECTION.

////////MOD

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mightywolf:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thereal:
He doesn't look ambigous. Byron Saxton is a Black American former wwe wrestler. Byron feature set isn't a like-for-like comparison to the Berber man but they don't look to dissimilar.






https://static.wrestletalk.com/app/uploads/2019/10/tom-phillips-byron-saxton-r32r32f.jpg

---

The thing is, Coon himself saw this Berber man in real, we see him only in an old black and white pic with a certain facial expression. For instance, Coon showed this Southern Euro man as an example for a gracile Med


and he classified this Arab/Yemenite individual as central Mediterranean.


They both don't really resemble this Berber man here. Besides, this former www wrestler looks like some folks who are biracial. You have to consider, that many black Americans can be very mixed even when both parents are Afro-Americans. No offense, I'm just stating my personal opinion.

---

Indeed you will find Berbers like these guys, however you will also find Berbers who do not look like those guys, but more like the men posted below. Can you imagine a man like Coon linking up with them or rather with these to men in that picture. Coon stayed with a Berber family.





 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 
"The term negro is confined to slave Africans, (the ancient Berbers) and their descendants. It does not embrace the free inhabitants of Africa, such as the Egyptians, Moors, or the negro Asiatics, such as the Lascars."



"The Negro Law of South Carolina" by John Belton O'Neall, page 5 (1848) J.G. Bowman

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Negro_Law_of_South_Carolina.html?id=r9lBAAAAIAAJ
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 
@Tazarah a more easy to read version, in Google book reader:


"Sec. 4. The term negro is confined to slave Africans, (the ancient Berbers) and their descendants. It does not embrace the free inhabitants of Africa, such as the Egyptians, Moors, or the negro Asiatics, such as the Lascars."

The negro law of South Carolina By South Carolina. State Agricultural Society, State Agricultural Society of South Carolina (1839- ) published in 1848

https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=r9lBAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=reader&authuser=0&hl=en&pg=GBS.PA5
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Cool but that's just one source saying so
amid 100s that say otherwise.

Yes negro means enslaved African.
When some Euros called some black merchants negroes
the blacks replied we are not negroes but can get you some.

In Africa there's a dichotomy aMazight/Gnawa.
In Senegal for instance iMazighen are 'white',
as they are in all the old records (Leo's
English translator changed white to tawny).
However iMazighen are not Red Ears, the term
reserved for Euro ytes.

Many places in AfricArabia reserve red for
the Iranians and Europeans and white for
Imazighen & Arabs. Then red can also refer
to a person with one Gnawa and one aMazigh
parent. A lot depends on circumstances.

Iirc, the first sale of West Africa blacks
to Europeans was when Euros captured some
Zenaga iMazighen who were ransomed in
exchange for Gnawa.


=-=-=-=-=

See the entry NEGRO in
Asante and Mazama (eds) (2005)
Encyclopedia of Black Studies
Thousand Oaks, California: Sage Publications
[ https://books.google.com/books?id=VF45DQAAQBAJ&pg=PT402
https://books.google.com/books?id=VF45DQAAQBAJ&pg=PT403

https://kisslibrary.com/book/7E51C74FC203DEF7C77E?utm_source=o14-bdl2-0825_1-5
https://us.sagepub.com/en-us/nam/encyclopedia-of-black-studies/book225679]


And I'll always recommend
Richard B Moore (1960)
The Name "Negro": it's origin and evil use
New York: Argentina Press
[ http://www.blackclassicbooks.com/9780933121355/
and Google Books previews a couple chapters]


Sixty years ago Caribbes and AfrAms (including John
Henrik Clarke) set up the Committee To Present The
Truth About The Name "Negro" -- publishing, The
Name Negro, It's Origin and Evil Use.



Dr Clarke is 2nd right from head of table.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Yosef ben Jochannan on negro



John G Jackson on negro

I concur with Jackson if 'Berbers' are 'Negroes',
"Negro. A word so vague as this does not mean anything at all"
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Can't find where I first learned 'Berbers' exchanged
'blacks' to free themselves from Portuguese interlopers.
This recounting will have to do until I find the record.

quote:

---

Among other Portuguese rulers, Henry the Navigator, the organiser of Portuguese expeditions to Africa, sanctioned the importation of Africans, ostensibly to convert them to Christianity.

Gonçalves [ ] was sent by Henry the Navigator to explore and hunt the Mediterranean monk seals along the West African coast.

After he had filled his small vessel with seal skins, Gonçalves, on his own initiative, decided to buy some Africans to take back to Portugal. With nine of his crewmen, Gonçalves bought an Azenegue Berber and a black tribesman who had worked as a slave for the Berbers.


Nuno Tristao

By this time, Tristão had arrived at the same place, and the two joined together for another slave purchasing expedition.

Gonçalves, by chance, captured a solitary young camel-driver; the first native encountered by the Portuguese since the expeditions began in the 1420s. Tristão, who had one of King Henry’s Moorish (black) servants on board, to act as an interpreter, is said to have interrogated the captive camel-driver whose information led them to a small Berber fishing camp nearby.

The Portuguese attacked the fishermen, taking 10 captives, one of them an Azenegue chief — the first African slaves to be taken by the Portuguese back to Europe.

Some of their captives are said to have assured their captors they would be ‘handsomely rewarded’ if they returned them to Africa.

Gonsalvez shipped the captives back to Africa where he received in exchange“…ten blacks, male and female, from various countries…” and various goods including “… a little gold dust.”


https://www.thepatriot.co.zw/old_posts/portuguese-role-in-slave-trade/

---

 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Don't forget the Canary Islanders who were probably the first Africans to be enslaved by Europeans in the Trans-Atlantic trade!



Pope Eugene IV Against the Enslaving of Black Natives from the Canary Islands
January 13, 1435

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Eugene04/eugene04sicut.htm


Some six decades before Columbus set out for the new world, Pope Eugene IV condemned the enslavement of black natives from the Canary Islands. This 1435 papal command demanded the European slave-masters to release them within 15 days or face the weight of excommunication from the Church.

http://fatherjoe.wordpress.com/instructions/other/catholicism-the-black-experience/

1402
Juan de Bethencourt became the first European to settle in the Canary Islands and made slaves of several natives heralding the beginning of the black slave trade. At this time slavery had been practically eliminated in Europe, thanks to the influence of the Church. The Holy Roman Church later would not only condone and support slavery even of those baptized into the Roman Catholic Church but also would hold their own slaves. Europe, led by Spain, would begin over four centuries of slave trading that included some twenty million Africans alone, of which half died in transit. Jewish children deported from Portugal during the Inquisition settle Sao Tome e Principe, two islands 320 kilometers west of Gabon. It then became a transit point for the slave trade. Pope John Paul II (1978 - ) in 1992 deplored the Roman Catholic Church's condoning of that sad offense to human dignity.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
DJ (but re-up on yr 1st trade facts)


Ish.
Where them Canarian mummy images at?

I'm'a xfer autochthonous Canary Is infos here
like Gaunches are one set of abo Canarians
from earlier threads.


Tazarah.
Yes, judging from culture and genetics iMazighen
were among 'cargo' in Tri-angular Trade holds.
 

---

Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 
3 days have passed since I asked you to remove just one judgemental statement.

In your superiority you decide not to obey a black no matter if moderator.
Consequently as a man of my word I'm deleting your post. When a guest comes
into your home and disses it and you
you put fire up under they azz

[ 11. December 2021, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: Tukuler ]
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:
"The term negro is confined to slave Africans, (the ancient Berbers) and their descendants. It does not embrace the free inhabitants of Africa, such as the Egyptians, Moors, or the negro Asiatics, such as the Lascars."



"The Negro Law of South Carolina" by John Belton O'Neall, page 5 (1848) J.G. Bowman

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Negro_Law_of_South_Carolina.html?id=r9lBAAAAIAAJ

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
DJ (but re-up on yr 1st trade facts)


Ish.
Where them Canarian mummy images at?

I'm'a xfer autochthonous Canary Is infos here
like Gaunches are one set of abo Canarians
from earlier threads.


Tazarah.
Yes, judging from culture and genetics iMazighen
were among 'cargo' in Tri-angular Trade holds.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

These are not Guanches but people from the island of Bioko (Fernando Po) which is near equatorial guinea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioko

---

Nope! The indigenous people of Bioko are the Bantu speaking Bube people who look like this:



You're obviously unaware of the fact that Bioko (Fernando Po) Island was used as a penal colony since the Spanish Empire and peoples from all over that empire were sent there including Canarians hence why the people in the picture were described as 'Guanche Race'



Here's a book on Canarians in the U.S.



I've seen all those depictions of white Guanches. They were posted many times in this forum before but it's funny how the depictions of all the other Canarians who are black are almost never shown.

I also find it funny that you never addressed these references:

Pope Eugene IV Against the Enslaving of Black Natives from the Canary Islands
January 13, 1435

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Eugene04/eugene04sicut.htm


Some six decades before Columbus set out for the new world, Pope Eugene IV condemned the enslavement of black natives from the Canary Islands. This 1435 papal command demanded the European slave-masters to release them within 15 days or face the weight of excommunication from the Church.

http://fatherjoe.wordpress.com/instructions/other/catholicism-the-black-experience/

1402
Juan de Bethencourt became the first European to settle in the Canary Islands and made slaves of several natives heralding the beginning of the black slave trade. At this time slavery had been practically eliminated in Europe, thanks to the influence of the Church. The Holy Roman Church later would not only condone and support slavery even of those baptized into the Roman Catholic Church but also would hold their own slaves. Europe, led by Spain, would begin over four centuries of slave trading that included some twenty million Africans alone, of which half died in transit. Jewish children deported from Portugal during the Inquisition settle Sao Tome e Principe, two islands 320 kilometers west of Gabon. It then became a transit point for the slave trade. Pope John Paul II (1978 - ) in 1992 deplored the Roman Catholic Church's condoning of that sad offense to human dignity.
 

---

Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 
@ DJ

So, if the aboriginal Canary Islanders varied in skin tone, with some being dark enough to be called "Black" and others like the Guanches being lighter-skinned, what do you think would have accounted for this variation? Would the Guanches represent (or be admixed with) a later migration to those islands?

By the way...


If this is what Guanches looked like, they don't seem to me like they'd stand out as unusual on the streets of modern Casablanca or Tripoli. So in a sense, Antalas isn't wrong about them looking like some Arabized North Africans today, even if they didn't represent all aboriginal people on the Canary Islands.
 

---

Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
 
@Brandon Depends on population size or whether they had high rates of albinism.
 

---

Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Nope! The indigenous people of Bioko are the Bantu speaking Bube people who look like this:


You're obviously unaware of the fact that Bioko (Fernando Po) Island was used as a penal colony since the Spanish Empire and peoples from all over that empire were sent there including Canarians hence why the people in the picture were described as 'Guanche Race'

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: I've seen all those depictions of white Guanches. They were posted many times in this forum before but it's funny how the depictions of all the other Canarians who are black are almost never shown.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: I also find it funny that you never addressed these references:

Pope Eugene IV Against the Enslaving of Black Natives from the Canary Islands
January 13, 1435

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Eugene04/eugene04sicut.htm

Some six decades before Columbus set out for the new world, Pope Eugene IV condemned the enslavement of black natives from the Canary Islands. This 1435 papal command demanded the European slave-masters to release them within 15 days or face the weight of excommunication from the Church.

http://fatherjoe.wordpress.com/instructions/other/catholicism-the-black-experience/

1402
Juan de Bethencourt became the first European to settle in the Canary Islands and made slaves of several natives heralding the beginning of the black slave trade. At this time slavery had been practically eliminated in Europe, thanks to the influence of the Church. The Holy Roman Church later would not only condone and support slavery even of those baptized into the Roman Catholic Church but also would hold their own slaves. Europe, led by Spain, would begin over four centuries of slave trading that included some twenty million Africans alone, of which half died in transit. Jewish children deported from Portugal during the Inquisition settle Sao Tome e Principe, two islands 320 kilometers west of Gabon. It then became a transit point for the slave trade. Pope John Paul II (1978 - ) in 1992 deplored the Roman Catholic Church's condoning of that sad offense to human dignity. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:

@ DJ

So, if the aboriginal Canary Islanders varied in skin tone, with some being dark enough to be called "Black" and others like the Guanches being lighter-skinned, what do you think would have accounted for this variation? Would the Guanches represent (or be admixed with) a later migration to those islands?

By the way...


If this is what Guanches looked like, they don't seem to me like they'd stand out as unusual on the streets of modern Casablanca or Tripoli. So in a sense, Antalas isn't wrong about them looking like some Arabized North Africans today, even if they didn't represent all aboriginal people on the Canary Islands.

---

That's my point precisely-- that the Canarians are simply insular Maghrebis who are an extension of those in the mainland just as the Bube of Bioko Island are an extension of those in Equatorial Guinea.



Maghrebi populations in general are a mixed group of North African and European hence why their look varies with some looking more European while others look more African. This topic has been beaten to death in this forum countless times.

Unfortunately such mixed folk like Antalas suffer what many Black Americans call a "mulatto complex identity crisis" where they favor one ancestry but denounce the other. Here in the US such types favor the black side and attack their white side. In North Africa it's the opposite.
 

---

Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
That's my point precisely-- that the Canarians are simply insular Maghrebis who are an extension of those in the mainland just as the Bube of Bioko Island are an extension of those in Equatorial Guinea.



Maghrebi populations in general are a mixed group of North African and European hence why their look varies with some looking more European while others look more African. This topic has been beaten to death in this forum countless times.

Unfortunately such mixed folk like Antalas suffer what many Black Americans call a "mulatto complex identity crisis" where they favor one ancestry but denounce the other. Here in the US such types favor the black side and attack their white side. In North Africa it's the opposite. [/QB]

---

Of course you couldn't answer to what I posted and once again I exposed your lies and dishonest methods. Again why are guanches similar to modern north africans especially north moroccans like me ?




"Maghrebi populations in general are a mixed group of North African and European" hahah lmao completely ignores the trans-saharan slave trade and all their descendents.
 

---

Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
A poster interested in promoting facts would've looked up Fernando Po before writing what Antalas
did. On the other hand this title is a lie as was
demonstrated on ES years ago. Whoever made that
title up is equated black to slave without any
internal evidence as stated in the primary
document itself.


It is factual that Spain instituted an African
Slave trade before Portugal established the
ongoing West Afican trade but the Triangular
Trade was instituted by a religionist named
Dos Casas who recommended replacing native
American laborers with West Africans from
south of the river Senegal.

I asked you to refresh yourself on this earlier.
While KEMET can be as politically hot as posters
make it, I cannot allow flubbed 'factual' material.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:



I also find it funny that you never addressed these references:

Pope Eugene IV Against the Enslaving of Black Natives from the Canary Islands
January 13, 1435

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Eugene04/eugene04sicut.htm

---

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Is this actually an indigenous Canary Islander?




George Glas' 1764 translation of an older
Spanish document says they were darker than people
of southern Spain and their hair was black and bushy.
I use Canarians instead of Guanches because only
the people of northern Tenerife are the Guanches
and only this small subset were light in colour.

• 
  
  
  [b]
  Juan de Abreu de Galindo, trans George Glas
  The History of the Discovery and Conquest of the Canary Islands
  Palmas, 1632
  London, 1764
  pp.281-282

Guanches are a small minority of the Canarians.
They only inhabited the north of Tenerife.

Besides the north part of Tenerife we have to
consider the central and south parts of Tenerife
along with the great bulk of the Canary Islands:
2 - Alegranza
3 - El Hierro
4 - Fuerteventura
5 - Gran Canaria
6 - Isla de Lobos
7 - La Gomera
8 - Lanzarote
9 - La Graciosa
10 - La Palma
11 - Montaña Clara
12 - Roque del Este
13 - Roque del Oeste.

We have seen them documented as darker skinned than
southern Spaniards and having bushy hair black in color.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
And these Canaries mummies can't be ignored or evaded either


Mummies of the Canary Islands











https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/11/26/photos-funerary-rituals-at-museum-of-nature-and-man-on-spanish-island-of-tenerife/ [/QB][/QUOTE]
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
You don't get to decide what is a "proper" art work.

You may present your selections but they aren't any
more repping 'truth' than the ones you don't like.

Edit accordingly or see it removed.

You will not roam unchecked in this forum as you do elsewhere.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

---

These are not guanches but people from the island of Bioko (Fernando Po) which is near equatorial guinea : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioko

These are proper[SIC] depictions of the native inhabitants of the canary islands :

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

George Glas' 1764 translation of an older
Spanish document says they were darker than people
of southern Spain and their hair was black and bushy.
I use Canarians instead of Guanches because only
the people of northern Tenerife are the Guanches
and only this small subset were light in colour.

• [b]
  Juan de Abreu de Galindo, trans George Glas
  The History of the Discovery and Conquest of the Canary Islands
  Palmas, 1632
  London, 1764
  pp.281-282

Guanches are a small minority of the Canarians.
They only inhabited the north of Tenerife.

Besides the north part of Tenerife we have to
consider the central and south parts of Tenerife
along with the great bulk of the Canary Islands:
2 - Alegranza
3 - El Hierro
4 - Fuerteventura
5 - Gran Canaria
6 - Isla de Lobos
7 - La Gomera
8 - Lanzarote
9 - La Graciosa
10 - La Palma
11 - Montaña Clara
12 - Roque del Este
13 - Roque del Oeste.

We have seen them documented as darker skinned than
southern Spaniards and having bushy hair black in color. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

The naturals who held them prisoner owned boats, lived together in houses and obeyed a king. They were men of high stature, of red and swarthy color, that is to say more or less brown, but undoubtedly of white race, since they wore their hair long (literally not frizzy); their women were of a rare beauty.

---

quote:

---

These young men were not circumcised; "they had long, blond hair that veiled them almost to the navel; they walked barefoot. Their stature did not exceed that of the narrators; they had robust limbs, appeared courageous, of great intelligence, very loyal and full of of loyalty.

---

basically similar to modern north africans as the genetic and biometric results show. Again why don't you adress these more reliable datas ? Why are these ancient isolated guanches similar to people like me ? I thought we were arab-white slaves mix ?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Pope Eugene IV was concerned with the enslaving of only those Canarians who had already converted to Christianity.

To that effect the pope issued several bulls.
* Creator Omnium (1434) "Creator of all"
* Sicut dudum (1435) "As long"
* Romanus pontifex (1436) "Pope of Rome"

Regimini gregis (1475) "Royal flock" was a later bull from Pope Sixtus IV reinforcing excommunication for enslaving Christians.


Antalas

Thx 4 the valuable factual reminder of what ESers should know since posted here a while back.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=010077;p=6#000292

Sicut dudum has recently been sensationalized as colour based edict when in fact
it was religion based so disregard the newly added propagandist subtitle here.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti: I also find it funny that you never addressed these references:

Pope Eugene IV Against the Enslaving of Black Natives from the Canary Islands
January 13, 1435

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Eugene04/eugene04sicut.htm

Some six decades before Columbus set out for the new world, Pope Eugene IV condemned the enslavement of black natives from the Canary Islands. This 1435 papal command demanded the European slave-masters to release them within 15 days or face the weight of excommunication from the Church.

http://fatherjoe.wordpress.com/instructions/other/catholicism-the-black-experience/

1402
Juan de Bethencourt became the first European to settle in the Canary Islands and made slaves of several natives heralding the beginning of the black slave trade. At this time slavery had been practically eliminated in Europe, thanks to the influence of the Church. The Holy Roman Church later would not only condone and support slavery even of those baptized into the Roman Catholic Church but also would hold their own slaves. Europe, led by Spain, would begin over four centuries of slave trading that included some twenty million Africans alone, of which half died in transit.

---

.
Have you at least read what you post ? The original paper literally does not mention any black, it simply talks about natives being enslaved. Moreover they posted the source :

"Source: Appendix B of Fr. Joel S. Panzer’s book, “The Popes and Slavery” (Society of St. Paul, 1996) on page 75 from Baronius’ Annales Ecclesiastici, ed. O. Raynaldus (Luca, 1752) vol. 28, pp. 226-227. "

Therefore the title "black native" is an assumption made by this joel panzer it wasn't in the original document.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

George Glas' 1764 translation of an older
Spanish document says they were darker than people
of southern Spain and their hair was black and bushy.
I use Canarians instead of Guanches because only
the people of northern Tenerife are the Guanches
and only this small subset were light in colour.

• 
  Juan de Abreu de Galindo, trans George Glas
  The History of the Discovery and Conquest of the Canary Islands
  Palmas, 1632
  London, 1764
  pp.281-282

Guanches are a small minority of the Canarians.
They only inhabited the north of Tenerife.

Besides the north part of Tenerife we have to
consider the central and south parts of Tenerife
along with the great bulk of the Canary Islands:
2 - Alegranza
3 - El Hierro
4 - Fuerteventura
5 - Gran Canaria
6 - Isla de Lobos
7 - La Gomera
8 - Lanzarote
9 - La Graciosa
10 - La Palma
11 - Montaña Clara
12 - Roque del Este
13 - Roque del Oeste.

We have seen them documented as darker skinned than
southern Spaniards and having bushy hair black in color. [/qb]

---

.


... it's well known that north africans are darker than spaniards so I don't see what you're trying to do with such descriptions. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

"they had long, blond hair that veiled them almost to the navel; ... they had robust limbs, "

basically similar to modern north africans as the genetic and biometric results show.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:


Tazarah.
Yes, judging from culture and genetics iMazighen
were among 'cargo' in Tri-angular Trade holds.

---

If true, then that would have to mean they were "black", or "negroes"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:


Tazarah.
Yes, judging from culture and genetics iMazighen
were among 'cargo' in Tri-angular Trade holds.

---

If true, then that would have to mean they were "black", or "negroes"

---

.

Yes, in your polemic for the sake of your argument
it appears even a corn silk blond blue eyed European
can be "black" or "negro" when so needed.

In Africa iMazighen are not black/negro.
iMazighen call blacks/negroes by two names:
* Gnawa (where the term guinea comes from)
* slave

But if ppl in Carolina say Berbers are black
BINGO end of story no matter what any other
source says or that 100s of printed works
posit Berbers are not negroes (let me be
clear and non-ambiguous, when I use negro
99% of the time I mean the physical anthro
forensic negro promulgated since the 1700s.

I never mean one drop Europeans or others
assigned to the American coloured population
where Louis Armstrong and Adam Clayton Powell
are equally negro (obviously sociological not
biological).

---

quote:

---

Thus the Teda appear to have Berber blood
in markedly negroid bodies. ... The Teda
may indeed represent the oldest surviving
human stock in the Sahara, ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tazarah:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:


Tazarah.
Yes, judging from culture and genetics iMazighen
were among 'cargo' in Tri-angular Trade holds.

---

If true, then that would have to mean they were "black", or "negroes"

---

.

Yes, in your polemic for the sake of your argument
it appears even a corn silk blond blue eyed European
can be "black" or "negro" when so needed.

In Africa iMazighen are not black/negro.
iMazighen call blacks/negroes by two names:
* Gnawa (where the term guinea comes from)
* slave

But if ppl in Carolina say Berbers are black
BINGO end of story no matter what any other
source says or that 100s of printed works
posit Berbers are not negroes (let me be
clear and non-ambiguous, when I use negro
99% of the time I mean the physical anthro
forensic negro promulgated since the 1700s.

I never mean one drop Europeans or others
assigned to the American coloured population
where Louis Armstrong and Adam Clayton Powell
are equally negro (obviously sociological not
biological).

---

Oh, I guess people in the 19th century southern United States did not know what a "negro" was then. There are specific terms that were used during that time period for "mixed" people (mulatto, quadroon, etc.) -- none of those words were used to describe the Berbers. They were simply called negroes.

PS, the same sources identifies Asiatics as negroes as well. Let me guess, the Asiatics also went by the "one drop rule"?

"The term negro is confined to slave Africans, (the ancient Berbers) and their descendants. It does not embrace the free inhabitants of Africa, such as the Egyptians, Moors, or the negro Asiatics, such as the Lascars."

"The Negro Law of South Carolina" by John Belton O'Neall, page 5 (1848) J.G. Bowman

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Negro_Law_of_South_Carolina.html?id=r9lBAAAAIAAJ

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:


If this is what Guanches looked like, they don't seem to me like they'd stand out as unusual on the streets of modern Casablanca or Tripoli. So in a sense, Antalas isn't wrong about them looking like some Arabized North Africans today, even if they didn't represent all aboriginal people on the Canary Islands.

---

.

Seem to you from your imagination or
from touristing around said cities?

Anyway

Who posited that Canarians were other than N Afrs
of the same genomics found from Sahrawi to Touansi
and that is exemplified by the latter?

However, in Rodriguez-Varela it's Mzab that's the exemplar.

quote:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

Now c'mon and post the K=10 ADMIXTURE showing the Saharawi near identity why don't you please

---

.

OK then, be that way and don't share the knowledge. Here 'tis anyhow, aboriginal Canarians, red underscore, just where I said.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Maghrebi populations in general are a mixed group of North African and European hence why their look varies with some looking more European while others look more African. This topic has been beaten to death in this forum countless times.

Unfortunately such mixed folk like Antalas suffer what many Black Americans call a "mulatto complex identity crisis" where they favor one ancestry but denounce the other. Here in the US such types favor the black side and attack their white side. In North Africa it's the opposite.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Maghrebi populations in general are a mixed group of North African and European hence why their look varies with some looking more European while others look more African. This topic has been beaten to death in this forum countless times.

Unfortunately such mixed folk like Antalas suffer what many Black Americans call a "mulatto complex identity crisis" where they favor one ancestry but denounce the other. Here in the US such types favor the black side and attack their white side. In North Africa it's the opposite.

---

The trend I have noticed is that these "Amazigh nationalists" are intent on minimalizing the Black presence in the Maghreb unless they can attribute it to slavery. That's why they get so angry if you artistically depict, say, ancient Numidians or Dihya al-Kahina as Black. It's all about marginalizing Black people in North African history as much as they can.

Mind you, I don't actually have a problem with lighter-skinned people having lived along the northwest coast of Africa for some time. We have enough Neolithic and Bronze Age artifacts of European affinity in the region to know they were interacting substantially with Iberian cultures back then, and then there is the succession of colonization by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, and so forth. But these people of mixed heritage would not represent the indigenous inhabitants of North Africa or the original proto-Berbers, no matter what racist "Amazigh nationalists" are so determined to argue.

---

quote:

---

The SNP rs1426654 of the SLC24A5 gene is related to light-skinned pigmentation in individuals with European ancestry. The derived allele was already fixed in Anatolian Early Neolithic populations, suggesting that its high frequency in Neolithic Europe was related to demic diffusion from the Middle East49. In our sample set, TOR presents the derived A allele (3 reads), while IAM has the ancestral G allele (2 reads) related to darkskinned phenotype. However, in line with previous results, KEB is similar to European Neolithic samples, and presents the derived allele (2 reads). [...] This SNP is one of several variants associated with increased probability of having dark eye color in Caucasians. Again, IAM present the T allele (1 read) related to dark pigmentation, while KEB and TOR presents the C allele (3 reads both) with increased probability of having light colored eyes. Another SNP of the OCA2 gene, rs12913832, was fixed in Europe during the Mesolithic and it is the major determinant for blue eye color. In our sample set, only IAM has coverage for that position and all the three reads show the ancestral allele, indicating again that IAM people had dark eyes.

---

quote:

---

The TCHH1 gene codes for trichohyalin, a protein active in hair follicle roots. For all Taforalt individuals we find the derived homozygous AA genotype for SNP rs17646946 in this gene, which has been associated with straighter hair in Europeans (allelic effect (ß) = 0.4-0.5, explained variance = 6.11%) (98).

---

https://www.science.org/doi/abs/10.1126/science.aar8380 (supplementary text)

So what we see is that Holocene north-west africans already looked very different from your depictions where the figures look no different from your regular west african. You talk about phoenician, roman, vandal, etc but where are the genetic evidence of them impacting the local genepool ? Or maybe you have statistics to back up these assumptions ? How do you interpret the guanche results ? How do you interpret the result of the two copper age outliers from Spain and Sardinia ? How do you interpret the result of 300 AD north africans found in italy who cluster with modern north africans ? What you're doing is darkwashing and historical revisionism plain and simple and obviously north africans who cherish their ancestors/history will not tolerate this.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Please let's not mix reality with your art.

LaKahena was not of Inner torrid Africa nor living there.
She was an Aures chilly Mts Mediterranean Coastal African.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=003965


One cannot go about remaking ppl into what
one's fantasies suggest and try to segue
that into history archaeology and anthropology.

Inventing blk ppl where they were not and in
roles they did not play is no different than
the marginalization you speak of.

No one here has presented as much info on the
autochthone blks of Tropical North Africa from
GrecoLatin classical writers than I have. Some
were taMazight speakers, some were not. None
were located high up in the cold arse Aures.
Putting them there distorts African Studies
and is far from an authentic Africana.

I'm telling what your black friends won't
whether to spare your feelings or whatever.

I admire your talent nonetheless and patiently
await seeing a black man romping around with
white women in white world in your art and lit.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
An amateur run showing why Canarian ranks N Afer



http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009815;p=2




That's from a few years back and just now I notice an East
Africa baNtu element I overlooked before. Must redo the redux.


The WHG element showed up strong in Loosdrecht
who's population choices aren't 'outsider robust'.



[img][/img]
 

---

Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Please let's not mix reality with your art.

LaKahena was not of Inner torrid African nor living there.
She was an Aures chilly Mts Mediterranean Coastal African.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=003965


One cannot go about remaking ppl into what
one's fantasies suggest and try to segue
that into history archaeology and anthropology.

Inventing blk ppl where they were not and in
roles they did not play is no different than
the marginalization you speak of.

---

The very thread you link to has an old French text (Revue Tunisienne) describing Kahina as dark-skinned "according to Arab chroniclers".
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Duh uh like I didn't know that when I wrote it before I knew there was such a thing as an Egyptsearch.

If you can find a N Afr author admitting LaKahena was dark
like I did from diligent research please post it, thanks.


What would dark skin be relative to Mediterranean Africa?

Would it mean Savannah/Forest dark brown?

Heck, DJ told us all he's very dark but not black.


I hope you overstand my criticism is constructive.
Ain't asking you quit the fantasy, it's the shizz.
But whaddabouda sideline featuring authenticity
like with them Dinosaurs meticulously researched?

Dayyum, don be like Queen Latifah's Bessie Smith.
Give the YallaBirds and CaramelCuties some play!

Ebony complexions would more mark a Ourgla/Wargla Jew
otherside the Atlas in the Chotts or Negrine territory.
That's why I keep harping about sampling Wargla DNA.

Have you followed the track of in-migrating Aures
Jews to where their descendants are today and
what their complexions are? You're up on your
Fishberg and your Briggs, right?
 

---

Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
Your answer doesn't even make sense since for instance the indigenous european Western hunter-gatherers were dark skinned and yet weren't black morphologically or genetically. Same situation is seen with Iberomaurusians where we're dealing with a dark skinned population but still distinct from your regular "black" physically and genetically. Moreover the highest amount of IBM ancestry peaks among modern berbers not anyone else.

You also don't have the genetic data of Capsians nor do you know which population brought the proto-berber language to North Africa and yet you're quick to draw conclusions about who is and isn't indigenous. What we actually know is that SNPs for light skin were already present during the IVth millenium BC brought by iberian neolithic farmers who settled in NW africa and mixed with the locals :

quote:

---

The SNP rs1426654 of the SLC24A5 gene is related to light-skinned pigmentation in individuals with European ancestry. The derived allele was already fixed in Anatolian Early Neolithic populations, suggesting that its high frequency in Neolithic Europe was related to demic diffusion from the Middle East49. In our sample set, TOR presents the derived A allele (3 reads), while IAM has the ancestral G allele (2 reads) related to darkskinned phenotype. However, in line with previous results, KEB is similar to European Neolithic samples, and presents the derived allele (2 reads). [...] This SNP is one of several variants associated with increased probability of having dark eye color in Caucasians. Again, IAM present the T allele (1 read) related to dark pigmentation, while KEB and TOR presents the C allele (3 reads both) with increased probability of having light colored eyes. Another SNP of the OCA2 gene, rs12913832, was fixed in Europe during the Mesolithic and it is the major determinant for blue eye color. In our sample set, only IAM has coverage for that position and all the three reads show the ancestral allele, indicating again that IAM people had dark eyes.

---

https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/suppl/2018/06/11/1800851115.DCSupplemental/pnas.1800851115.sapp.pdf


Meanwhile SNPs for straight hair were already present among taforalt/IAM :

quote:

---

The TCHH1 gene codes for trichohyalin, a protein active in hair follicle roots. For all Taforalt individuals we find the derived homozygous AA genotype for SNP rs17646946 in this gene, which has been associated with straighter hair in Europeans (allelic effect (ß) = 0.4-0.5, explained variance = 6.11%) (98).

---

https://www.science.org/doi/abs/10.1126/science.aar8380 (supplementary text)

So what we see is that Holocene north-west africans already looked very different from your depictions where the figures look no different from your regular west african. You talk about phoenician, roman, vandal, etc but where are the genetic evidence of them impacting the local genepool ? Or maybe you have statistics to back up these assumptions ? How do you interpret the guanche results ? How do you interpret the result of the two copper age outliers from Spain and Sardinia ? How do you interpret the result of 300 AD north africans found in italy who cluster with modern north africans ? What you're doing is darkwashing and historical revisionism plain and simple and obviously north africans who cherish their ancestors/history will not tolerate this.

---

quote:

---

For all Taforalt individuals we find the derived homozygous AA genotype
for SNP rs17646946 in this gene, which has been associated with straighter hair in Europeans
(allelic effect (β) = 0.4-0.5, explained variance = 6.11%) (98).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

what can't you understand in "natives of fernandino po" ? Canarians were sent to America and Madeira, there is no evidence they were sent to Bioko so these people are in fact mixed individuals of colonial portuguese/spanish and local bantus this is why these creole people live on the island : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernandino_peoples

---

Why can't you understand the very heading of the illustration 'GUANCHE RACE' with the man subtitled as 'Cutthroat'. Criminals were exiled away from their homes in penal colonies. What would indigenous Bube be doing in the penal colony of their own home?? LOL



But you're right about one thing-- some Canarians were sent to America and they looked like this:



Not exatly the Euro-looking people you generalize they were.
 

---

Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
Capsians likely resemble the Early neolithic inhabitants of Morocco.
the specific call/mutation (@rs17646946) is associated with "curly" hair reduction not straight hair. your source even explained it.

quote:

---

For all Taforalt individuals we find the derived homozygous AA genotype
for SNP rs17646946 in this gene, which has been associated with straighter hair in Europeans
(allelic effect (β) = 0.4-0.5, explained variance = 6.11%) (98).

---

Penetrance for a single alelle accounts for %6.1 less curly hair. Homozygous individuals 12%.
That won't make them have the hair texture you share.
Not only that, Europeans have the highest frequency of the derived allele at a lil over 20%.
But sampled Nigerians of ibadan (Yoruba) carry this mutation at about 12%.
East Asians and East Asian derivatives are basically fixed for the Ancestral/wild type alleles.


It's similar to the 'Agouti signaling protein' and the 'melanocortin 1 receptor'... mutations in respective loci associated with variance in skin color which are available in people who would undeniably be seen as black. but they're hyped up in the Taforalt populations in an attempt to differentiate them from Black Africans or SSA's. lol Genetic/intellectual warfare. It's actually quite disappointing as a lot of times these mutations could actually be North African in origin but because of some weird biases in this space we end up disrespecting the hell out of the initial inhabitants.

---

Wasn't the below a reconstruction of a man from the Iberomaurisian (or related) population? Of course, reconstructions like this are not the end-all-be-all of how the subjects looked in life, but if they did look something like this, I suspect even our Antalas would consider them Black.

 

---

Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
Capsians likely resemble the Early neolithic inhabitants of Morocco.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro: the specific call/mutation (@rs17646946) is associated with "curly" hair reduction not straight hair. your source even explained it.

quote:

---

For all Taforalt individuals we find the derived homozygous AA genotype
for SNP rs17646946 in this gene, which has been associated with straighter hair in Europeans
(allelic effect (β) = 0.4-0.5, explained variance = 6.11%) (98).

---

Penetrance for a single alelle accounts for %6.1 less curly hair. Homozygous individuals 12%.
That won't make them have the hair texture you share.
Not only that, Europeans have the highest frequency of the derived allele at a lil over 20%.
But sampled Nigerians of ibadan (Yoruba) carry this mutation at about 12%.
East Asians and East Asian derivatives are basically fixed for the Ancestral/wild type alleles.


It's similar to the 'Agouti signaling protein' and the 'melanocortin 1 receptor'... mutations in respective loci associated with variance in skin color which are available in people who would undeniably be seen as black. but they're hyped up in the Taforalt populations in an attempt to differentiate them from Black Africans or SSA's. lol Genetic/intellectual warfare. It's actually quite disappointing as a lot of times these mutations could actually be North African in origin but because of some weird biases in this space we end up disrespecting the hell out of the initial inhabitants. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

In conclusion, we report a quantitative trait locus that affects hair form in Europeans. The association accounts for ∼6% of the variance in hair morphology in this group and falls within the Trichohyalin gene, which has a known role in hair formation. The patterns of allele frequencies are striking, with the highest frequency of these variants observed in Northern Europeans (Figure 1), paralleling the observation of the straight-hair EDAR variant in Asian populations (Figure S9).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Why can't you understand the very heading of the illustration 'GUANCHE RACE' with the man subtitled as 'Cutthroat'. Criminals were exiled away from their homes in penal colonies. What would indigenous Bube be doing in the penal colony of their own home?? LOL

---

quote:

---

The indigenous group of Fernandinos or Los Fernandinos, were mixed-race descendants of the indigenous population of Spanish Guinea originating from the island of Fernando Pó (modern day Bioko Island), an island discovered by the explorer Fernão do Pó. This group consisted of mulattoes of black female Bubi and white male Spanish parentage, and were part of the emancipados social class. Many children from such unions were not claimed by the father; however, some couples married under Roman Catholic law. Because the Bubi women generally were responsible for rearing and caring for their mixed-race children, they identified with and were generally accepted by the Bubi tribe.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

But you're right about one thing-- some Canarians were sent to America and they looked like this:



Not exatly the Euro-looking people you generalize they were. [/QB]

---

"euro-looking" ??? since when do north africans look european ? Moreover I would need the source of the depiction they used because I've searched any depiction from that era and couldn't find a single one so maybe they use a non canarian to illustrate their book.

meanwhile you still can't answer why the first people who saw them and regularly interacted with them depicted them like this :




why don't you bring something from the canary island instead of suspicious documents from bioko and texas lol


MOD EDIT
** Docs aren't suspicious because YOU don't like them **
** second warning about well-poisoning. That you note **
** the refs are 'diasporan' not 'homelander' is enough **

[ 10. December 2021, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: Tukuler ]
 

---

Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
 
@Elmaestro Are you saying Yorubas carry genes for loose curly hair? Because I remember rapper G Herbo had a kid with light skin and curly hair,from what I can tell,his ex was also Black.


 

---

Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thereal:
@Elmaestro Are you saying Yorubas carry genes for loose curly hair? Because I remember rapper G Herbo had a kid with light skin and curly hair,from what I can tell,his ex was also Black.

---

quote:

---

Genome-wide ancestry estimates of African Americans show average proportions of 73.2% African, 24.0% European, and 0.8% Native American ancestry (Table 1). We find systematic differences across states in the US in mean ancestry proportions of self-reported African Americans (Figure 1 and Table S2). On average, the highest levels of African ancestry are found in African Americans living in or born in the South, especially South Carolina and Georgia (Figure 1Aand Table S3). We find lower proportions of African ancestry in the Northeast, the Midwest, the Pacific Northwest, and California. The amount of Native American ancestry estimated for African Americans also varies across states in the US. More than 5% of African Americans are estimated to carry at least 2% Native American ancestry genome-wide (Figures S1 and 1D). African Americans in the West and Southwest on average carry higher levels of Native American ancestry, a trend that is largely driven by individuals with less than 2% Native American ancestry (Figure 1B). With a lower threshold of 1% Native American ancestry, we estimate that about 22% of African Americans carry some Native American ancestry (Figure S2).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thereal:
The problem with using European genes as an excuse for why some Black folks exhibit a non stereotypical African traits is bs,because the opposite is also true. So any a Euro or other group has nothing to do with genetic variation but admixture?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
[QB] @Antalas
You haven't added anything to the conversation. The 09 study reported what they believed was a novel signal in the correlation between Straight hair and rs17646946. But the facts I pointed out remains. The gene is NOT a determinant of straight hair. Claiming it is would be dishonest, that's all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro: "why do I estimate that the Capsians resembled Early Neolithic Moroccans"

Simple: They came from the same region. The Early Neolithic population excavated at Ifri_n-Amer_moussa came from the east. Their predecessors as well most likely came from the east. The Moroccan Neolithic was always highlighted by their similarities to European Neolithics and any outlying characteristics are given comparison to the Capsian. So while moroccan Neolithic sites weren't categorized as Capsian you can't look at the chronology and assume they were completely unrelated.

secondly there's no real evidence that Modern North Africans received anything in access to EEF and Early Neolithic North African that'll fall out of line with the Autosomal landscape between North Africa and the Near east. The Capsians came from the East (Most likely North east Africa as we have multiple lines of evidence for pulse migrations from that region.) The EEF populations most related to coastal North Africans are unequivocally of southern European origin (they came from the north).

So unless you're attributing Capsian culture to the expansion of EEF there's no real room for speculation.

Oranian/Maurasians ~ >20Kya
Typical Capsian 10Kya + Shows continuity cultural and biologically with Oranian/Maurasians
Early Moroccan Neolithic 6kya + Shows less cultural and biological continuity Oranian/Maurasians
So If pre-Conquest NAs are EEF + EnNA

What's left for the Capsians to be?

---

quote:

---

"Although, ADMIXTURE analysis pointed to some relationship between IAM and Levantine aDNA samples, especially the Natufians, this is not supported by FST distances."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
@Antalas
You haven't added anything to the conversation. The 09 study reported what they believed was a novel signal in the correlation between Straight hair and rs17646946. But the facts I pointed out remains. The gene is NOT a determinant of straight hair. Claiming it is would be dishonest, that's all.

---

It does NOT mean they hadn't straight hair either and the fact they pointed out it's associated with straighter hair among europeans is quite revealing.

---

quote:

---

What makes you think IAM came from the East ? I think you got confused by their affinities with neolithic levantines but that was in contrast to SSA samples; their FST distances are quite clear about who they were :

quote:

---

"Although, ADMIXTURE analysis pointed to some relationship between IAM and Levantine aDNA samples, especially the Natufians, this is not supported by FST distances."

---

https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/suppl/2018/06/11/1800851115.DCSupplemental/pnas.1800851115.sapp.pdf

If they absorbed an eastern influence it was surely small and nothing actually links them to capsians whether culturally or morphologically. And actually everything points to a EEF influx from Europe this shouldn't even be questionned that is why the first evidence of proper neolithic package are found in northern morocco and not south-west tunisia, that's why we're dealing with cardium and bell beaker cultures instead of PPNC or Merimda/Maadi cultures. That's why KEB plots between IAM and Iberian_N instead of showing affinities with some kind of ANF+ PPNC or PPNC+ KENpastoral_N.

The fact that you can't find where to place capsian in all of this; doesn't mean they have to be seen as some kind of rich ANF population that's a very speculative assumption.

Imo capsians aren't the source of EEF/ANF ancestry but actually would explain the "natufian" (though it's more of a PPNC/KEN_N type of admixture) found among the two copper age samples :

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
You're talking in complete circles... You need to explain the marked cultural shift after 7000bc. You need to explain the marked biological shift in related cultural sites such as Grotte des Idoles, El Mnasra 2 or Kiffen. There was no European admixture in none of the samples sequenced from IAM.
But there was a shift towards domestication, pottery and the ingestion of snails prior to European introduction.
Where did that shift come from? Mind you this was 3 thousand years After the first proposed Appearance of a Capsian site to the east.
- Your point regarding the Calcholithic samples is dumb. and even self contradictory Just say that you believe that the Capsians were just Natufians in Algeria 10,000bc so we can laugh and move on. But in terms of speculation... that would take the cake. There's marked SSA in the later North African samples on top of the elevated Natufian in relation to the already present Iberomaurasian admixture. That's literally evidence that that admixture proportionately accompanied the Natufian-related ancestry. And that ancestry composition is not to far off from that of Taforalt and IAM to begin with. 30-39% African-related 70-60% Natufian related. Dude just use common sense. [/QB]

---

Come on man the "marked" cultural shift was restricted to a small area and cultural shift doesn't necessarily imply admixture. That's why cardium/cardial artifacts can be find alongside IAM remains and that's not a middle eastern culture nor were IAMs similar to early neolithic europeans.

Again Capsians were culturally distinct from IAM so I don't see why you bring pottery, ingestion of snails, etc. You might also get confused by the presence of IBM skulls in capsian sites which is a proof of cohabitation but again that doesn't mean anything about the origin of IAM.

As for these two samples, I never implied or said they were natufians. I said that they probably came from further east (probably the delta area) and might have been some kind of PPNC + KenyaPastoral_N which would explain the non-taforalt affinity and some of the morphological SSA affinities they had (they also get better fits with it than with simply natufian). That "natufian" clearly has nothing to do with taforalt or IAM.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
S'sorry scuse me while I dib n dab a lil
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Have no idea what lects the below ethnic groups spoke,
whether they were or how much pre or proto Berber/taMazight.
- Tropical North Africa differs somewhat from
- Atlas Maghreb North Africa and
- Mediterranean Coast Maghreb North Africa.

Some set of Nilo-Saharan seems very likely if something like
the Songhai/Berber lects go back as far or further than the
reported spillage/conquest by Æthiopian types clear to Dyris.


Where did all the Atlas, pre-Sahara, and Sahara blacks of the Greco-Latin authors go?

Search for
• Frontinus' Carthaginian auxiliaries
• Nygbenitae Æthiopians
• Cerne Ethiopians
• Dyris
• Melanogaetuli
• Tarraelian Ethiopians
• Oecalicae
• Nigritae
• Gymnete Pharusii
• Perorsi
• Hesperii
• Appianus' Numidica
• Western Ethiopians

Blacks darker than the Afers, pre-Khart Haddas ancient Tunisians et al,
abounded in North Africa south of the Tunisian/Algerian chotts,
i.e.; 34 degrees north.

Black does not mean negro.
Black does not mean sub-Saharan.

Morocco's Haratin in the south
will say they're autochthone, that
they aren't recently arrived "black
West Africans" and the "whites"
they welcomed as new neighbors
took over.

North Africa had its own local pops
who, wherever their sources were,
these local pre-Saharans and North
Saharans [didn't look like and] were neither our
• Savannah West Africans
• Gulf of Guinea West Africans
• South Central Africans
• Lower, Middle, or Upper clear to Great Lakes/
Mountains of the Moon (Ruzenwori) Nile Africans
• Mediterranean coast Africans.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
_______ Juba II Numidian African ____________ Typical Euro-Roman



The Numidian differs from the European in all the stereotypical hair and facial
features. The hair is thicker and "wilder." The eye is larger and rounder. The
cheek bones are higher and more protruding. The nose is flatter and broader
with nostrils tending to round/oval rather than oblong/slit shape. The lips are
thicker and more everted. King Juba II's antecedents thus seem the type of black
autochthonous to littoral North Africa.



 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Before someone soils himself

Decorative hermes depicting Roman North Africa's two general phenotypes.





Here, a stereotypical Berber herm as moderns would have it.
[ *Note link disabled by tinyurl* ]


The companion ain't so stereotypical but his
'du is the 'du on elder Juba (below right) and
the Numidian cavaliers of Trajan's Column too.

He's the local type black of this region and not
to be confused with a black from anywhere else.





 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Now that I've bored you genetics-only types to tears

Ta-daa, a Scooby Snack for yez


Earliest Canarian aDNA

Uniparentals with some dates


Tenerife samples are majority EpiPaleolithic U6 derived females with LateHolocene E-M183 males.
Numerous tribes inhabited the archipelago. The Guanche tribe only inhabited a sector of northern Tenerife.

L3b1a dominates ancient Gran Canaria samples. It positively dates there to at least the 10th century.
No U6 reported. Many tribes inhabited the archipelago.

quote:

---

L3b1a, has point estimates of 11.7–14.8 ka, with starlike patterns suggesting involvement in major expansion.

---

quote:

---

"traces of buildings; that while they all have an abundant supply of fruit and of birds of every kind, Canaria also abounds in palm-groves bearing dates and in conifers; that in addition to this there is a large supply of honey, and also papryus grows in the rivers, and sheat-fish; and that these islands are plagued with the rotting carcasses of monstrous creatures that are constantly being cast ashore by the sea."

---

.


Ruh Roh.
Don look now but some further confirming forensics type infos

[ Suspension bridges strength is intertwined threads making cables, ]
[ multidisciplinary, transdisciplinary, every discipline all rolled up into ]
[ some hellah unassailable, unbreachable holistic presentations, get it? ]

Ol skool anthro Dixon has interesting remarks based on skull and face.
The tribes may've got to the islands at different times from different locales.




 

---

Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 
I will not answer you until you stop editing my posts.


*********
Hahahahahaa
You can't answer the Ancients
You can't answer the uniparental genetics
You can't answer the upcoming autosomal genomics
All you got is propaganda bulletins
to paste up on the walls and shutter boards
vainlt attempting to replace fact with truth.

KEMET is political not anything goes, that's another forum


So behave as asked and I will cease.

And note despite pleas and warnings
all I did was add to your judgemental posts
Except for one where you were just off da chain.
You can show me where you feel I was too harsh.

But do as you please
or govern yourself
The thread goes on
because, the thread, well,
IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU

[ 10. December 2021, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: Tukuler ]
 

---

Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 
There is no point in writing an answer if you'll edit it just after because you can't handle the truth.


** Don't be obtuse
truth is subjective and personal (propaganda)
fact is objective and universal (academic)


Did I remove anything
or did I just add in what
I find unacceptable
your judgemental attitude
as to what's "real" data.

I do it there on the spot
rather than waste a post.

Comply or go away
I don't care which
I'm done with you
and your interuptions

Your next whiney post
will simply be deleted
but valuable ON TOPIC
posts like your one on
the Church and Canary
slavey are golden, capice?

Now hoo shoo scat
til you figure what you'll do

[ 10. December 2021, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: Tukuler ]
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Earliest Canarian aDNA

Uniparentals with some dates


Earliest Canaries aDNA

Deep ancestral genetic roots covered above, now here's genome wide ADMIXTURE and PCA plot of 5 ancient samples' fitted among moderns.

Per ADMIXTURE and PCA 7th-11th CE samples are closest to pre-Saharans re
* the Erg Iguidi (near where Democratic Saharawi Arab Republic/Mauritania/Algeria/Morocco all meet)
* the Chotts and Eastern Erg (Tunisia/Algeria)
the horns of a pre-Sahara foot of Atlas arc of population.

Aboriginal Canarians from Tenerife & Gran Canari in red underscore show Saharawi and subset Mzabi near ancestral identity.


The PCA indicates Tunisia from southern east coast thru to oasis (Mzab) Algeria wider affinities.
 

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Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 
^the studies lack a larger variety of north african samples but from what you posted guanches have more EEF ancestry than mozabites; they also appear to have more middle eastern ancestry and less SSA...

Anyway The PCA you posted, show them to plot next to modern tunisians and algerians (still a bit more euro shifted than these two modern groups). It's also visible on the Van de loosdrecht 2018 paper :




their Fst distance chart is also quite clear :




Are you going to say guanches were europeans and arabs because of this :

[ Get rid of that shih, I'm not defending myself from statements I never made you piece of ... ]
[ you never bothered to read what I wrote indigenee Canarians were, again and again, they were ]
[ nothing but the further west extention of the iMazghen stretching from Sahrawi to central and ]
[ east Algeria AND YOU CANT QUOTE ME PRESENTING ANY OTHER INTERPRETATION BECAUSE THAT"S THE ONLY ]
[ OPINION, ITS THE ONLY ONE THE RAW DATA ALLOWS YOU DANG BLACK HATING BIGOT ]




[ 10. December 2021, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: Tukuler ]
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Why do you think you're contradicting what I posted?

You never bothered to read what I wrote again and again.
Indigenee Canarians were nothing but the furthest west
extention of the iMazghen stretching from Sahrawi to
central and east Algeria

Quote me presenting any other opinion. You can't
because the raw data doesn't allow any other interpretation
you dang black hating bigot of a Beur. Are you one of Iblis'
djinn?


You go into knee jerk militant NorthAfrocentric battle stance

against anything a stupid negro says is gotta be wrong
why bother digesting it to see what's actually in it


If a black says water is wet you'll rush in
to say something about steam and ice SMH.

You argue against validity of data what you yourself turn
around and present without even realizing its the same factual
data and you doit only to in your mind put the black in his place
since nothing offered from a black can possibly make any sense.


I told you I don't like you saying stuff like
"what are you trying" as if I'm pulling
sleight of hand magic. You're projecting,
pushing militant NorthAfrocentric talking
point propaganda of what your sick arses
thinks is in every black person's mind.

Better save this this thread because if you
don't remove that insinuation the whole post
goes to the bit bucket and you can whine from
from France to Azawad about it, it'll be gone!

I straight out posted
Per ADMIXTURE and PCA 7th-11th CE samples are closest to pre-Saharans re
* the Erg Iguidi (near where Democratic Saharawi Arab Republic/Mauritania/Algeria/Morocco all meet)
* the Chotts and Eastern Erg (Tunisia/Algeria)
the horns of a pre-Sahara foot of Atlas arc of population.

And you turn around and insinuate I said
"Are you going to say guanches were europeans and arabs"

You know what? Why wait? That's enough devil lie
right there to show your devil arse the door.
Abuse of hospitality would get you axed in the Sahra.
 

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Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 
Then what is the point you were trying to make ? We both agree on the same thing.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
You finally get it breying donkey.

You only tried to contradict what I posted
because I'm black even though you now see
it is nothing but factual raw data intepretation

that once you clmed your racist arse down
could see you did nothing but support
what I already posted.

Shhhhuh

whooo boiiiiiiii


Your kind would have Franz Fanon turning over in his grave, heaven forbid. SMH SMH SMH
 

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Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
You finally get it breying donkey.

You only tried to contradict what I posted
because I'm black even though you now see
it is nothing but factual raw data intepretation

that once you clmed your racist arse down
could see you did nothing but support
what I already posted.

Shhhhuh

whooo boiiiiiiii


Your kind would have Franz Fanon turning over in his grave, heaven forbid. SMH SMH SMH

---

It has nothing to do with you being black; I'm just careful with people who might potentially support afrocentric claims (I have the same behavior with eurocentrists on platform like 4chan for example).


*** you are a self-admitted prejudiced, bigoted racist is what you are a typical northafrocentric
militant fake aMazigh nationalist who hates and
snap judges blacks w/o bothering to hear listen
and digest what's actually being said because
you have magic "potential afrocentric" detecting abilities
that amount to nothing but your boss' hateful edict.
If they're black they MUST be afrocentric --- attack!

[ 11. December 2021, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: Tukuler ]
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Afrocentric? Beur please, Afrocentric is all yall's code for black.


From my very start who couldn't see this ADMIXTURE
squarely ranks 'Gaunches' (majority Tunisian Chenini
exemplified K8) among the taMazight speakers?


 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Doesn't my Loosdrecht REDUX delineate Canary WHG
my radar scopings and rectangle concisely posit
North Africans in a quadrant with Red Sea AfricArabians
and likewise in a quadrant with Europeans?

I mean after all it's Loosdrecht's text and raw data.
I just redesigned the look and added the color code boxing


 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
What wrong with this Rodriquez-Varela ADMIXTURE
REDUXed down to Mzab and YRI poles charting
most to least YRI and most to least Mzab clines
pending top down or bottoms up point of viewer?

Again I'm presenting 'Gaunches' as just another 'Berber', bibbah.
How could anyone misconstrue this as against 'Berber' 'Gaunches'? How?


 

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Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
You finally get it breying donkey.

You only tried to contradict what I posted
because I'm black even though you now see
it is nothing but factual raw data intepretation

that once you clmed your racist arse down
could see you did nothing but support
what I already posted.

Shhhhuh

whooo boiiiiiiii


Your kind would have Franz Fanon turning over in his grave, heaven forbid. SMH SMH SMH

---

It has nothing to do with you being black; I'm just careful with people who might potentially support afrocentric claims (I have the same behavior with eurocentrists on platform like 4chan for example).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Thereal:
I'm ADOS and I'm not aware of any Afrocentric attacks against North Africans. Only thing I have gathered is some people think that there weren't any light skin Euro looking North Africans until foreigners came in and mixed with Black folks already there. If skeletal and genetics evident makes it clear "lighties" like yourself existed and it has nothing to do with admixture but environmental adaptation then I have no idea what you mean by Afrocentrism sense North Africans are Africans. [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Thereal:
The Black North Africans,sure but not some of the light skin one's.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
Compare Loosdrecht's PCA, with PC1 flipped, to Fregel.

Radar ID


Fregel's HOD PCA S6.3 plots
• Taforalt closer to SSA than to Natufian
• Natufian overlaying Neolithic Iran
• Neolithic Iran overlayed by KEB
• Taforalt closer to Luxmanda than to Natufian
• Pemba 3X farther from Taforalt than Luxmanda is.

Consider the relative worth of PCA vs other analytic tools.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
And these Canaries mummies can't be ignored or evaded either


Mummies of the Canary Islands











https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/11/26/photos-funerary-rituals-at-museum-of-nature-and-man-on-spanish-island-of-tenerife/

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
Everybody's a critic
But do they add anything of value to the thread?


Those mummies are a 1:1 from here http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=012545;p=#000011

___________

Touche: You are better than that, or at least I thought you were.

Add something of value to the thread
If you have a Canary mummy to post please do.

If you don't like me editing posts

YOU DON"T HAVE TO POST HERE

Post to New Member Intros forum
if you don't want a moderator
doing the job of forum direction.
Or pick the Mod you like the best
and post to their forum


In KEMET forum no one's getting away
with posting melanophobia based
ideologies unscathed.

You know what happens to blx @ sites
ytes control when even they present
college paper level posts the racists
don't like?

I'll not be nobler than my peoples' enemy.

Anyone declaring my writings Afrocentric
is obvious just an anti-black making
biased assumptions like
a black scholar = an Afrocentric


_________________________________


Coming up ...
a barage of charts from Arauna's nrY report

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quote:

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In KEMET forum no one's getting away
with posting melanophobia based
ideologies unscathed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
You finally get it breying donkey.

You only tried to contradict what I posted
because I'm black even though you now see
it is nothing but factual raw data intepretation

that once you clmed your racist arse down
could see you did nothing but support
what I already posted.

Shhhhuh

whooo boiiiiiiii


Your kind would have Franz Fanon turning over in his grave, heaven forbid. SMH SMH SMH

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thereal:
I'm ADOS and I'm not aware of any Afrocentric attacks against North Africans. Only thing I have gathered is some people think that there weren't any light skin Euro looking North Africans until foreigners came in and mixed with Black folks already there. If skeletal and genetics evident makes it clear "lighties" like yourself existed and it has nothing to do with admixture but environmental adaptation then I have no idea what you mean by Afrocentrism sense North Africans are Africans.

---

Come on, attacks are done on a daily basis on every platform and it's not just a question of skin color; they claim that modern north africans are the product of arab invaders who later mixed with white slaves and that original indigenous north africans can only be found today among tuaregs or haratin. In the case of Egypt they claim that they are the product of all the foreign conquests (implied geneflow) so arabs, hyksos, greeks,romans, etc.

What's funny is that I literally have less middle eastern ancestry than italians/greeks and I'm very similar to the guanche samples we have so I wonder where all these arabs and white slaves went lol Honestly it's sad because let's be honest that's racism, they project their hatred of whites unto people who don't identify or view themselves as white (nor black) and can't handle the fact that you can be light skinned and indigenous african at the same time. They expect every african to look like what they perceive is "black" no matter genetics, history, environmental pressure/adaptation, etc [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Its funny because as I told Antas in the N. African genetic test thread that most here probaly don't disagree with his general premise(That Coastal North Africans/Berbers are genrally a tawny Light skinned people and have been for thousands of years) Yet he stays in some delusional paranoia of "Afrocentrism" and by Afrocentrism he means the idea that other parts of North Africa besides the coast had native dark skinned so called black people in in that had nothing to do with slaves. Or by Afrocentrism the idea that the blubery lipped coal black African "Negro" is not the only representative of a black African...

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quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] Oh please, stop being a victim, stop pretending like the people who make these claims are some sort of over arching presence with any iota of clout within historical circles. Anyone making these claims are almost immediatly banned and mocked on any historical forum/website.

Hell anyone claiming the truth of a native black origin of various North African population outside the Coastal Megreb is almost banned as well.

Honestly I don't understand the obsession with your people by some, it must have to do with the romanticism of Orientalist and Islam IMO because no one seems to give a damn about the Christian era of North Africa(Which IMO the Berbers produced WAY better Scholarship)

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You're saying this because you don't really experience it. Meanwhile I see it everyday and no these people aren't only being mocked, they are actually taken very seriously by these liberal whites that's why we end up with this :

black hannibal




Black numidian




Moorish princess and guard




etc etc

and I suppose it will be worse in the upcoming years/decades with all this pc and woke/cancel culture.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Have you searched ES for the varied opinions on
Hannibaal? No, you know you haven't. Or if you
did it was myopic ignoring what you can't turn
into a polemic.

I'm tired of these unnamed Afrocentrics of yours
especially when you're an Afrocentric yourself.

Children blame and fear the Boogeyman
Adults know there's no such thing yet
use the Boogeyman to quell children.


Your unnamed Afrocentrics are a boogeyman. Oops! On go the lights


From this point forward you must name the individuals
you claim are doing dirty deeds against poor
blameless NW Afrs. NW Afr, a place where
native born generational black citizens don't
have equal rights, no whites invested in seeing
them become full citizens and as late as the 1970s
held some blx in domestic household slavery.


Because you claim you are African I'm interested
in your voice but only when you're rational. You
can help round out the forum and I know it'll
take a while to shift your gears from a bigot's
wide accusations to critical analytical postings
without sacrificing any pride and passion in your
Berberhood (you are no Amazigh militant but some
of your European biased ethnocentricity is like theirs).


Now don't forget
NO MORE UNNAMED "AFROCENTRIC" PUNCHING BAGS
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Africa's been a Two Colour Continent throughout
historic times. My guess? Ultimately of outside
origins U6 mommies were lighter than already residing Aterians who by climatology probably
weren't much dark.

At least by the African Humid Period, when the
West African Monsoon belt moved north to green
the Sahra, art shows color 'dichotomy' regardless
of facial profile or hair.

By the New Kingdom era creamy coloured Libyans
appear in the art, indisputably proving skin
tones in Mediterranean coastal Africa included
near/off white along with 'nally-yally' complexions.

As late as Vandal times, one record speaks of
a white skinned ethny south of black Mauretania.
An earlier writer speaks of "Ethiopians" on the
Atlantic coast clear north to "Dyris" ie the Sous
and the Adrar.


The history of importing black people from far to
the south does not override the fact of indigenee
Sahra blx and not just underclass native south and
central West Sahra Haratin but the remnants of pre
and north West Sahra blx of Greco-Latin notice.

I use West Sahra since I think the focus is west
of Tibesti though the thread title, knowingly or
not, invokes Brigg's opinion of the Tibbu.
 

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Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 
If what they're are bellyaching about are portrayals of ancient Egyptians, Carthaginians, Numidians, and Moors as Black, it's clear to me that their agenda is erasing or marginalizing any presence of Black people in the most historiographically prestigious North African cultures. It's not enough for them that lighter-skinned people were present anywhere in ancient North Africa as well. What they want is for those people to be dominant in the North African cultures they want to claim for themselves. It's fundamentally motivated by anti-Blackness more than anything else.

To quote my own post in another thread...

quote:

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The Carthaginian explorer Hanno the Navigator mentions "hostile Aethiopians" living in the North African mountains upstream of the Lixos river (either the Draa or Loukkos in Morocco) in the sixth century BC. We also have Procopius of Caesarea in 550 AD describing both "black- [or dark-?]skinned" Mauretanii coexisting with other people who were "white in body and very fair-haired" in the region. Northwest Africans in classical antiquity seem to have been no less phenotypically diverse, and maybe even moreso, than they are today.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] Oh please, stop being a victim, stop pretending like the people who make these claims are some sort of over arching presence with any iota of clout within historical circles. Anyone making these claims are almost immediatly banned and mocked on any historical forum/website.

Hell anyone claiming the truth of a native black origin of various North African population outside the Coastal Megreb is almost banned as well.

Honestly I don't understand the obsession with your people by some, it must have to do with the romanticism of Orientalist and Islam IMO because no one seems to give a damn about the Christian era of North Africa(Which IMO the Berbers produced WAY better Scholarship)

---

You're saying this because you don't really experience it. Meanwhile I see it everyday and no these people aren't only being mocked, they are actually taken very seriously by these liberal whites that's why we end up with this :

black hannibal




Black numidian




Moorish princess and guard




etc etc

and I suppose it will be worse in the upcoming years/decades with all this pc and woke/cancel culture.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] OMG cry me a river, Like seriously you point to a few handful of examples of Black Hannibal, big deal. Its Hollywood, its fantasy and if anything more people bitched about the Black Hannibal than celebrated it.

Also stop pretending like there were no blacks in the Moors or in Numidia. And again your people inhabit the Coastal fringe of the Coastal Magreb, there's Berbers and Sahrans who are native to North Africa who are darker skinned, no matter how much you try to atribute them to slavery. Your own people call some of the Native Oasis dewllers Ganaw, correct, so then whats the big deal....There blacks native to North Africa along with your people.

As far as Andalus and Numidia...I honestly don't care about either of those and again its obsession by Afrocentrists is baffling, considering the Berbers were 2nd class citizens until the Tafia and Almoravd/Almohad periods, The Arab elite preferrng to marry White European slaves to the point they had to dye their Ginger/Blond hair black to seem more authentcally Arab. Why any Afrocentrist of even Berbercentrist would claim Andalucia is beyond bizzare, but again Orentalist Islamo-fantasy is some how appealling to a lot people

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quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
The Funny thing is NOT ONE mainstream Movie on Egypt, except the Prince of Egypt, a f-king Cartoon has EVER depicted Egyptians looking as the people who in habit Upper Egypt and Northern Sudan, people Like Antas love to spam them to contrast them from the Blubbery lipped True Negro, but how odd there is never an outrage when Russians and Englishmen are cast as Egyptians, rather than the Upper Egyptians who they love to spam in their Neo "Egyptians were Hamite" tactics.

The people of Upper Egypt and Ta-Seti have been disrespected for Hundreds of years, literally denied they created the same monuments that match their features, but they want to f-king bitch about ONE f-king portrayal of a sorry ass Hannibal...Get the f-k out of here with that BS.

Cry me a god damn river

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Stop making assumptions like that, I also get pissed by it. I remember when I saw Exodus by ridley Scott the guy really went too far using NW european actors to play egyptian characters...

He only used one iraqi actor that looks like an egyptian :




but they do the same with roman/greek history using englo/wasp actor to play mediterranean figures.
 

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Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:
These are simply assumptions you make about me ; Why do you pretend most members here don't believe ancient north africans from the atlantic to egypt were black and view the modern ones as "miscegenated" "admixed" ?

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quote:

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I've actually said many times that black skinned populations have always been indigenous to many parts of the Sahara but the problem is that afrocentrists always overestimate their numbers and influence and forgot that many slaves were also sent to saharan oasis. If you tell me Tebu are indigenous I will 100% Agree but if you start to tell me the blacks from zagora in morocco are indigenous then I'll quickly disagree.

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quote:

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As for "negro" being the only representative of black african, that's a conflict between how americans perceive blackness and how most people in the world perceive it. Unlike afrocentrists, I acknowledge the diversity that exist in Africa. I do not view you regular ethiopian and nigerian as simply "black men" : the ethiopian has different features, different genetic background, different history and culture. To me someone like Barack Obama isn't "black" but mixed half white half black. In america, I doubt you have the opportunity to often meet west/central africans meanwhile here my own neighbours are west african and I live alongside these people on a daily basis so I know what they look like and they don't look like your Will Smith or Rihanna that's why I think you have a wrong perception on how africans in general look.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
The Funny thing is NOT ONE mainstream Movie on Egypt, except the Prince of Egypt, a f-king Cartoon has EVER depicted Egyptians looking as the people who in habit Upper Egypt and Northern Sudan, people Like Antas love to spam them to contrast them from the Blubbery lipped True Negro, but how odd there is never an outrage when Russians and Englishmen are cast as Egyptians, rather than the Upper Egyptians who they love to spam in their Neo "Egyptians were Hamite" tactics.

The people of Upper Egypt and Ta-Seti have been disrespected for Hundreds of years, literally denied they created the same monuments that match their features, but they want to f-king bitch about ONE f-king portrayal of a sorry ass Hannibal...Get the f-k out of here with that BS.

Cry me a god damn river

---

Stop making assumptions like that, I also get pissed by it. I remember when I saw Exodus by ridley Scott the guy really went too far using NW european actors to play egyptian characters...

He only used one iraqi actor that looks like an egyptian :




but they do the same with roman/greek history using englo/wasp actor to play mediterranean figures.

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quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Who are these members Antas, other than a fringe most people agree with you, opinions differ but I doubt anyone consider North Africans as miscegenated considering the Genetic and pictorial evidence...

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quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Ok, I guess. Then you probably agree with majority of the people here..at least with me. No one is denying that slavery was an issue but its really sus that everytime a black North african is mentioned slavery is always followed as an explation, that's really the main problem.

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quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Oh please, no one is saying that a West African is the Same as an Ethiopian, thats just gas lighting people like you try to employ. No other people have to defend that they created the monuments in their own continent except Africans, No one claims that a Daddy Kaka-zoid came in and created the Chinese civilization, or that a Wandering Mongoloid came in and Created Rome, but its Afrocentrism to say the Ethiopians that created Axum were the same god damn Ethiopians in Ethiopia today. Its Afrocentrism to say the same people still in Upper Egyptian as Sudan are the same people in Upper Egypt and Ta-Seti that created Dynastic Egyptian culture.

The fact is we at least at ES have been saying that very thing for years, yet we were attacked, mocked and equated with the most fringe members of our forum.

Also, I know and have interacted with MANY Africans, and let me tell you, they are some of the most Pro Pan Africanist Ive ever met, I barely know any ADOS who are Pan-African, the very father of f-king Afrcentrism was a god damn African so stop trying to equate that sh#t with us. [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] I ask you where are the depictions of the Egyptians you all suddenly love to spam as Hamites, and you post an Iraqi and have the nerve to whine about a black Hannibal.

I get it though, there ARE'NT any Images you can use of the Egyptians you spam as Hamites in any depiction of Egypt except a f-king cartoon. The best you got is an Iraqi who would have been depicted being trampled under the hooves of the Suten's War Chariot.

Hundreds of years of disrespect, the decendants of the very people who wrote the last Mdu-Ntr on the walls of Kemet are now told its "Afrocentrism" to equate them with that Civilization.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:
Tukuler called us "miscegenated" and brought "phoenician, roman, arabs, french, spaniards,etc", Brandon P like to depict my ancestors as west african looking and imply I'm anti-black for not accepting his drawings, Djehuti claims we became light-skinned because of white slaves, and I think I don't even have to mention members like clyde winters or big O ...lol

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quote:

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But that's nothing compared to what I see on internet ...just look for instance at the page "Mr. Imhotep". Unfortunately I see the same trend among blacks who live in Europe, the comment section of every damn documentary on egypt is filled with blacks complaining about how modern egyptians have nothing to do with the ancient ones, that whites keep whitewashing the AEs, etc

Anyway I'm not "crying" but I'm just baffled that you haven't see it.

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quote:

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he problem and as pointed out by scholars before, is that it's really difficult to know who is indigenous and who isn't since many of these indigenous black communities absorbed black slaves. The best way would maybe be by looking at their genetic results I've seen tunisian blacks who had lots of west african ancestry and low IBM and EEF meanwhile I've seen moroccan blacks having important amount of IBM ancestry at the same level as "white" berbers which is very interesting.

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quote:

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Also many members here get furious everytime I mention "slave" as if the trans-saharan slave trade never happened and they never want to question the origin of these black north africans even though for instance these blacks themselves claims to be bambara/hausa (I have a video about it)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Thereal:
This makes no sense,you're describing a region. Bantu speakers live throughout Africa and aren't necessarily defined by a look as some Bantu speakers can have thin facial features and similar to Ethiopians and Somalis.

west african looking

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quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
I can't really speak for anyone but myself, but from interacting with these same people you mention except Clyde, I don't think you and they disagree with your general thesis, the Coastal North Africans are native and authentic Berbers. Again I can't speak for anyone else.

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quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Where did I say I have'nt seen it? It is probelmatics, but tbh Most of these people don't really understand what Modern Egyptians outside the Cairans look like so they're just venting. I don't get it, an Englishman can study Greek Civilization and see himself in it as inspiration but an African American can't do the same with Egypt.

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quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: I agree 100%, It is very difficult to really put African esp. North African history/ancestry into some neat box. Its so nuanced because you have what at least 3-4 different ideals of race/class/ethnicity, (Berber, West African, Islamic/Arab and European) You have one state like Maritania or Morocco where the Gnawa are slaves then you have the same word for native free inhabitants of the Oasis, You have Dark Skinned "White Moors" owning "Black Moors" who are a shade darker than them as slaves, You have the elite Moroccans who were obviously mixed with darker skinned Africans in photos ruling over majority Tawny skinned population, its really complicated.

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quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: I think its because almost every time anything of blacks is mentioned historically its atributed to slavery. You can't blame people for being upset when that is the reality.

No one mentions slavery when discussing the white population is Andalus, there were arguably more White Saqalibba slaves in Andalus than African, yet this is never mentioned or discussed. [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
I do think North African history is ignored and the people are'nt represented, also it is dis-service that they are not seen as authentically African. That said I think the documentary with Zanib Badawi did a good job covering North African history

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCKPyAHgX7U

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quote:

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I can't really speak for anyone but myself, but from interacting with these same people you mention except Clyde, I don't think you and they disagree with your general thesis, the Coastal North Africans are native and authentic Berbers. Again I can't speak for anyone else.

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It's not even like it's extremely difficult to find modern depictions of ancient and medieval North Africans that look "non-Black".







I've even drawn a few lighter-skinned North Africans myself on occasion. Like the dude on the left of this piece below:


And yet these online "Amazigh nationalists" will go berserk and harass any artist like me who depicts anyone from ancient or medieval North Africa as Black. Like it was such a fucking crime to represent a little-acknowledged Black presence in the Maghreb in art! It's like an artist being harassed by racist White people for drawing pictures of Native Americans instead of White Americans.

I don't have a problem with there being some lighter-skinned people of Iberian origin along the coast of northwestern Africa even before Punic times. I just don't think they were the only people there, or even necessarily predominant throughout the region in all periods, and they certainly wouldn't have been the aboriginal inhabitants or even the earliest Afroasiatic speakers in the area.
 

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Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Thereal:
I remember seeing some of this and didn't finish it. Already in the first 6 minutes there are a couple of problems,Zanib Badawi describe the the Caspian as tall,with Mediterranean looks and African features. North Africa is on the African side of the Mediterranean and she talks about the region be a mix of European,Asians andArabs. To a Arab is cultural and they are Asian or Africans depending how you want to group them.

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Originally posted by BrandonP:

And yet these online "Amazigh nationalists" will go berserk and harass any artist like me who depicts anyone from ancient or medieval North Africa as Black. Like it was such a fucking crime to represent a little-acknowledged Black presence in the Maghreb in art! It's like an artist being harassed by racist White people for drawing pictures of Native Americans instead of White Americans.

I don't have a problem with there being some lighter-skinned people of Iberian origin along the coast of northwestern Africa even before Punic times. I just don't think they were the only people there, or even necessarily predominant throughout the region in all periods, and they certainly wouldn't have been the aboriginal inhabitants or even the earliest Afroasiatic speakers in the area. [/QB]

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Originally posted by Antalas:
You show no respect to north africans. You might be "anti-arab" like many europeans and it's very common for white americans to always depict north africans as black, you want to erase us it seems.

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Originally posted by BrandonP:

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:
You show no respect to north africans. You might be "anti-arab" like many europeans and it's very common for white americans to always depict north africans as black, you want to erase us it seems.

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I don't see myself as anti-Arab. I could never hate anyone simply because of their ethnicity or nationality, and there is beauty in all cultures. Furthermore, I'm actually very much against the marginalization and bigotry Arabs and many other MENA people (as well as Muslims in general) face in Western nations, as well as the oppression the Palestinians are suffering at the hands of the Israelis.

A few years back, I even got into trouble with some posters here for calling them out on bigoted things they were saying about Arabs and other MENA people. Sure, some of that invective was retaliatory against the racism certain North Africans have directed towards Black people throughout this forum's history, but I'm not one to think that it's OK to be racist against a group of people simply because a certain subgroup of those people are racist themselves (in my eyes, that's like saying it's OK to be racist against Black people in response to Black people acting racist towards East Asians).

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Yes ok but your anti-racism shouldn't push you to erase a people to the benefit of another one nor should it lead you to make assumptions and twist the scientific datas. Obviously people will get pissed if you depict their ancestors as something very different from what they are supposed to be, that's basic human reaction. What's worse is that you consider such reactions as "anti-blackness" as if our ancestors could only be depicted as blacks or else we're racist.

Instead of spending years drawing about north african figures why don't you draw more west/central or east african figures from the axumite empire, ghana empire, ife civilisation, great zimbabwe, kingdom of Meroe, etc something your public can relate to and try to accept the diversity that exist in Africa instead of portraying very different populations with the same type of features.


What I've never understood is that you acknowledge that the datas show we're indigenous and similar to the ancient samples and yet you keep depicting us as if we were nigerians or congolese ?? That's why I think your behaviour is suspicious and might be linked to some kind of hatred for MENA people something very common among europeans/white folks. These "amazigh nationalists" will show you more respect if you respect them in return and depict their ancestors as they should look.
 

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Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 
@Jari

You implied I was exaggerating just Look what I found, this is what they teach in the UK :




Their guilt towards blacks is so big they go as far as erasing us to impose their political propaganda...
 

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Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0064:id=numidia-geo


NUMI´DIA the central tract of country on the N. coast of Africa, which forms the largest portion of the country now occupied by the French, and called Algeria or Algérie.
I. Name, Limits, and Inhiabitants.

The continuous system of highlands, which extends along the coast of the Mediterranean, was in the earliest period occupied by a race of people consisting of many tribes, of whom, the Berbers of the Algerine territories, or the Kabyles or Quabaîly, as they are called by the inhabitants of the cities, are the representatives. These peoples, speaking a language which was once spoken from the Fortunate Islands in the W. to the Cataracts of the Nile, and which still explains many names in ancient African topography, were called by the Romans Eth. Numidae, and embracing tribes of quite different characters, whites as well as blacks (though not negroes), a proper name, but a common (Strab. ii. p.131, xvii. pp. 833, 837.) Afterwards Numida and Numidia Ptol. 4.3; Pomp. Mela, 1.6; Plin. Nat. 5.2, 6.39) became the name of the nation and the country. Sometimes they were called MAURUSII NUMIDAE , Appian, App. BC 2.44), while the later writers always speak of them under the general name of MAUSI (Amm. Marc. 29.5; Procop. B. V. 2.4.) The most powerful among these tribes were the MASSYLI Plb. 3.44; Strab. ii. p.131, xvii. p. 829; Dionys. A. R. 187; Plb. 7.19; Massyli, Sil. Ital. 16.170; Massyla gens, Liv. 24.48), whose territories extended from the river Ampsaga to Tretum Prom. (Seba Rûs); and the


"However, not all black Africans came from Egypt; Ammianus also mentions, in passing, that tribes of Aethiopi lived near Auzia in the province of Mauretania Caesariensis (modern Sour el-Ghozlane, in Algeria): there were trade routes across the Sahara into North Africa at the time, and historians have only recently begun to study the possible cultural and ethnic connections in this area.z'"

Numidian representation on Trajan's column.. Punic wars...



The hair do...



How to do the do...










Algeria : Portrait of a female Kabyle people - undated, probably around 1910 -





 

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Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
The Appearance of the Original Berbers According to European Perceptions

5th century AD - “The Moors have bodies black as night, while the skin of the Gauls is white..." written by Isidore of Seville from The Etymologies of Isidore of Seville - by Steven A. Barney published 2007. p. 386

10th to 11th century AD Iraqi Physician Ibn Butlan wrote, “The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters… “ cited in Gender and sexuality in the Middle Ages by Martha A. Brożyna p. 303 2005.

14th century - Sir John Mandeville had written : Though men of Nubia be Christian, they be as the Moors from the great heat of the sun, written by English Knight, Sir John Mandeville, (died 1372). See chapter 7 of the Travels of Sir John Mandeville (Penguin Classics).


Introduction

All the early major Berber tribes including the Masmuda, Sanhaja, Ketama Zenata and Nafusa are described as dark reddish brown like the “Indi’ or as “blacks” or Ethiopians in early documents. The notion of the early Berbers as being “whites” or Caucasoid is a new and racist one related to the concept of the African “Hamite”. Certainly the original Berber-speakers were never referred to as anything but “black” or something near it until the 12th century and were otherwise considered the color of Abyssinians and other so called “Indi”.
Even the Kabyles a notoriously fair-skinned “Berber” people of North Africa are up until the 19th century described as “brown” "apart from a few clans". (See quotes below). The knowledge that Europeans were changing the complexion literally and figuratively of North Africa up until the 19th century has disappeared from modern European histories. Most know about the large part played by sub-saharan black slaves in the making of modern North Africa and Arabia while the white slave trade which was in fact dominant trade in North Africa until the fall of Constantinople (Istanbul in Turkey) in the 15th century had been largely ignored in historical writings of the 20th. Yet it was only a few centuries ago that Europeans visiting North Africa commenting on the fact that, “on almost every street of the cities of Barbary, Europeans could be seen harnessed to carts like draught horses or selling water from jars loaded on the backs of donkeys”.

1809 Commentary on those called “Moors” by an early 19th century observer: “They carry the Christian captives about the desert to the different markets to sell them for they soon discover that their habits of life render them unserviceable , or very inferior to the black slaves of Timbuktoo. “ from An Account of the Empire of Marocco, by J. G. Jackson published 1809 and 1814.

2003 - “From 1500 to 1650 when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy more Europeans were taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas. See, Robert Davis Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800, MacMillan Publishers, published 2003.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The impact of the white slave trade and its contribution to the modern biology and appearance of the modern North African stems from before the Arabian and Muslim waves into Africa. The Roman ruler Claudian spoke concerning Gildo, the “Moorish” ruler of Africa and treatment of Roman women from the Levant by this North African chief and his countrymen:

4th century - Claudian wrote, “ when tired of each noblest matron Gildo hands her over to the Moors. These Sidonian mothers, married in Carthage city must needs mate with barbarians. He thrusts upon me an Ethiopian as a son-in law, a Berber as a husband. The hideous hybrid affrights its cradle.” Claudian, by Claudius Claudianus, translation by Maurice Platnauer, published by G.P. Putnam's sons, 1922 p. 113. (Gildo was brother to other Berber chiefs Firmus and Maseczel. Gildo is related to Aguellid or Galdi which remains the modern Tuarek word for chief. Masek, Amazigh ot Imoshagh was the name for the ancient and modern Tuareg clans in general. The Mezikes tribes were called “Ethiopians” in Roman texts of the time. )

1st c. A.D. - “Diodorus Siculus speaks in reference to the expedition of Agathocles a Sardinian general, of three Libyan tribes on the coast of Tunisia, the Micatani and Zufoni (see Zafan ),who were nomads and the Asfodelodi, who by the color of their skin resembled the Ethiopians” , p. 50 The Mediterranean Race Book XX, 38, 57 Guiseppe Sergi, 1901. The Micatani were also called Ukutameni and Khethim by Josephus. In later writings they are called Ketama Berbers. The name Maketa or Imakitan remains a name for the eastern branches of the Tuareg.

1st century A.D.– Marcus Valerian Martial was one of the earliest Europeans to use the phrase “woolly hair like a Moor” in one of his Satires, and the phrase was commonly used up until the Middle Ages. See Nature Knows No Color Line by J.A. Rogers, 1952. p. 50 The Muslim era didn’t begin until the birth of Muhammed, the Prophet, over four centuries after Martial. By the 7th century the word came to be used for Arabians who in the early era of Islam for the most part also of “black” complexion.

1st century Silius Italicus also describes the Moors with the term ‘Nigra’ meaning black. In the 3rd century Roman dramatist Platus or Plautus maintained the name Maure was a synonym for “Niger” which another common term for the blacks in Europe. 6th century Isidore Archbishop of Seville claimed the word Maure meant black according to Brunson and Runoko Rashidi in “The Moors in Antiquity” in Golden Age of the Moor, 1991.

6th A.D.- Corippus uses the phrase “facies nigroque colorus” meaning faces or appearance of black color to describe the North African Berbers. In his book Johannis, I/ 245.

6th A.D. - Procopius in his History of the Wars book IV contrasting the Germanic Vandals who had settled in North Africa with the Maures claimed the Vandals were not “black skinned like the Maurusioi” . The tribes he classified as Maurusioi are those called the Numidians, Masaesyle, Gaitules, Massyles and Mezikes several other “Berber” tribes then settled between Tunisia and Morocco.
9th century - According to old Norse Saga Danish (Viking) raiders attacked Spain from Ireland the saga says: “From the latter place they ‘carried off a great host of them as captives to Erin and these are the blue men of Ireland (fir goma of Erin) for Mauri is the same as black man, and Mauritania is the same as blackness…Long indeed were these blue men in Erin.’” Jack D. Forbes, Black Africans and Native Americans (New York : Basil Blackwell, 1988),p. 68. Another transalation says “because the Moors are the same as Negroes; Mauretanis is the same as Negro-land.”
After the 8th century the term Moor came to be used for the many Arabian clans who had invaded the Mediterranean and Africa because of their complexions which were the same dark brown or near black to absolutely black color of the Berbers. Most of the Moors in Spain were in fact the people also first known as “the Arabians”.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=001694
 

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Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
[QB] http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0064:id=numidia-geo


NUMI´DIA the central tract of country on the N. coast of Africa, which forms the largest portion of the country now occupied by the French, and called Algeria or Algérie.
I. Name, Limits, and Inhiabitants.

The continuous system of highlands, which extends along the coast of the Mediterranean, was in the earliest period occupied by a race of people consisting of many tribes, of whom, the Berbers of the Algerine territories, or the Kabyles or Quabaîly, as they are called by the inhabitants of the cities, are the representatives. These peoples, speaking a language which was once spoken from the Fortunate Islands in the W. to the Cataracts of the Nile, and which still explains many names in ancient African topography, were called by the Romans Eth. Numidae, and embracing tribes of quite different characters, whites as well as blacks (though not negroes), a proper name, but a common (Strab. ii. p.131, xvii. pp. 833, 837.) Afterwards Numida and Numidia Ptol. 4.3; Pomp. Mela, 1.6; Plin. Nat. 5.2, 6.39) became the name of the nation and the country. Sometimes they were called MAURUSII NUMIDAE , Appian, App. BC 2.44), while the later writers always speak of them under the general name of MAUSI (Amm. Marc. 29.5; Procop. B. V. 2.4.) The most powerful among these tribes were the MASSYLI Plb. 3.44; Strab. ii. p.131, xvii. p. 829; Dionys. A. R. 187; Plb. 7.19; Massyli, Sil. Ital. 16.170; Massyla gens, Liv. 24.48), whose territories extended from the river Ampsaga to Tretum Prom. (Seba Rûs); and the

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: "However, not all black Africans came from Egypt; Ammianus also mentions, in passing, that tribes of Aethiopi lived near Auzia in the province of Mauretania Caesariensis (modern Sour el-Ghozlane, in Algeria): there were trade routes across the Sahara into North Africa at the time, and historians have only recently begun to study the possible cultural and ethnic connections in this area.z'"

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: Numidian representation on Trajan's column.. Punic wars...



The hair do...



How to do the do...

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Indeed these were not locks but they simply used to roll it like modern afars do


Roman bronze cavalry mask showing the portrait of a Numidian Moorish Prince. Late 1st-Early 2nd century AD




Moorish king Juba I :




Moorish king Juba II :






Masaesyle king Syphax :




and I can continue like this for hours...

quote:

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: Algeria : Portrait of a female Kabyle people - undated, probably around 1910 -

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Back in the XIXth century and early XXth century, "kabyle" was used by french scholars to designate any berber person in algeria therefore I suppose these women are berbers from the Sahara region since their attires don't look kabyle.

Here are vintage pictures of proper kabyle berbers :




 

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Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
The Appearance of the Original Berbers According to European Perceptions

5th century AD - “The Moors have bodies black as night, while the skin of the Gauls is white..." written by Isidore of Seville from The Etymologies of Isidore of Seville - by Steven A. Barney published 2007. p. 386

The impact of the white slave trade and its contribution to the modern biology and appearance of the modern North African stems from before the Arabian and Muslim waves into Africa. The Roman ruler Claudian spoke concerning Gildo, the “Moorish” ruler of Africa and treatment of Roman women from the Levant by this North African chief and his countrymen:

4th century - Claudian wrote, “ when tired of each noblest matron Gildo hands her over to the Moors. These Sidonian mothers, married in Carthage city must needs mate with barbarians. He thrusts upon me an Ethiopian as a son-in law, a Berber as a husband. The hideous hybrid affrights its cradle.” Claudian, by Claudius Claudianus, translation by Maurice Platnauer, published by G.P. Putnam's sons, 1922 p. 113. (Gildo was brother to other Berber chiefs Firmus and Maseczel. Gildo is related to Aguellid or Galdi which remains the modern Tuarek word for chief. Masek, Amazigh ot Imoshagh was the name for the ancient and modern Tuareg clans in general. The Mezikes tribes were called “Ethiopians” in Roman texts of the time. )

1st c. A.D. - “Diodorus Siculus speaks in reference to the expedition of Agathocles a Sardinian general, of three Libyan tribes on the coast of Tunisia, the Micatani and Zufoni (see Zafan ),who were nomads and the Asfodelodi, who by the color of their skin resembled the Ethiopians” , p. 50 The Mediterranean Race Book XX, 38, 57 Guiseppe Sergi, 1901. The Micatani were also called Ukutameni and Khethim by Josephus. In later writings they are called Ketama Berbers. The name Maketa or Imakitan remains a name for the eastern branches of the Tuareg.

1st century A.D.– Marcus Valerian Martial was one of the earliest Europeans to use the phrase “woolly hair like a Moor” in one of his Satires, and the phrase was commonly used up until the Middle Ages. See Nature Knows No Color Line by J.A. Rogers, 1952. p. 50 The Muslim era didn’t begin until the birth of Muhammed, the Prophet, over four centuries after Martial. By the 7th century the word came to be used for Arabians who in the early era of Islam for the most part also of “black” complexion.

1st century Silius Italicus also describes the Moors with the term ‘Nigra’ meaning black. In the 3rd century Roman dramatist Platus or Plautus maintained the name Maure was a synonym for “Niger” which another common term for the blacks in Europe. 6th century Isidore Archbishop of Seville claimed the word Maure meant black according to Brunson and Runoko Rashidi in “The Moors in Antiquity” in Golden Age of the Moor, 1991.

6th A.D.- Corippus uses the phrase “facies nigroque colorus” meaning faces or appearance of black color to describe the North African Berbers. In his book Johannis, I/ 245.

6th A.D. - Procopius in his History of the Wars book IV contrasting the Germanic Vandals who had settled in North Africa with the Maures claimed the Vandals were not “black skinned like the Maurusioi” . The tribes he classified as Maurusioi are those called the Numidians, Masaesyle, Gaitules, Massyles and Mezikes several other “Berber” tribes then settled between Tunisia and Morocco.
9th century - According to old Norse Saga Danish (Viking) raiders attacked Spain from Ireland the saga says: “From the latter place they ‘carried off a great host of them as captives to Erin and these are the blue men of Ireland (fir goma of Erin) for Mauri is the same as black man, and Mauritania is the same as blackness…Long indeed were these blue men in Erin.’” Jack D. Forbes, Black Africans and Native Americans (New York : Basil Blackwell, 1988),p. 68. Another transalation says “because the Moors are the same as Negroes; Mauretanis is the same as Negro-land.”
After the 8th century the term Moor came to be used for the many Arabian clans who had invaded the Mediterranean and Africa because of their complexions which were the same dark brown or near black to absolutely black color of the Berbers. Most of the Moors in Spain were in fact the people also first known as “the Arabians”.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=001694

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Like Procopius, the poet also recognizes three distinct communities in Africa: Romani, Afri, and Mauri. If the first two are often confused, the third is always clearly separated, as with the Greek historian. But this opposition is constructed in a very different way. Corippe knows the Moors well, and he shows it abundantly. For him, this is not an alien and abstract reality, but neighbors he has frequently encountered. […] They appear in his work under an even more negative aspect than in the works of Procopius. Radically distinguished from other Africans, they accumulate the most pejorative epithets. The Moor is thus successively ferus, acerbus, horridus, nefandus, amarus, saevus, impius, malignus26 ... One man, Antalas, sums up all these faults in himself: predisposed from his birth to evil, he caused all the woes of Africa

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Procopius contrasts several categories in the population. He first of all distinguishes the" Moors "from the" Libyans ". We have seen how the first term now designates, across the whole of Africa, members of tribes who are not Romanized (it may be necessary to make some space for an additional cultural category, that of rural people attached to the use of Punic); the second designates in fact the Romano-Africans, the name of "Romans" being reserved for the Byzantines

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One gets the sense from Corippus that there were in fact two Africas: one, a world of serene tranquillity, cultivated like the gardens that Procopius describes with such wonder and whose fruits so plentifully adorn the mosaics of this time and region; the other, a dark and terrifying place, existing on the fringes of the world which Christianity and Roman civilization had surrounded and enclosed, and which Byzantine arms protected against all comers. Indeed, to judge from the Iohannis, Corippus hated and feared the Moors. In the poet’s mind, these nonRoman Africans seemed to be wild, untamed savages (feri) living beyond the pale of civilization. But then, Corippus was an imperial apologist,and his evidence must be treated with great caution. Indeed, Moorish barbarism was a key element of sixth-century Byzantine propaganda in Africa, and so the cultured Latin poet had good reason to depict Moors in as dark a light as possible.

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But it also mattered that Moors be excluded from these same stories of collective ancestry. Procopius calls the Moors ‘a Phoenician people’ , which on the face of it could potentially have served to emphasize commonalities between them and at least some of the peoples under imperial control. Unlike Romans, though, in Procopius’ vision, the Moors were on the wrong side both of history and of God. In the historian’s telling, Moors were descendants of the peoples displaced from ancient Phoenicia by the Hebrews after the biblical exodus; the Moors’ arrival in Africa was said to have preceded that of the next wave of Phoenician emigrants her companions – and the foundation of Punic Carthage.45 However unconvincing this account of Moorish origins may seem to modern observers, to Procopius, the Moors were a people apart.46 In seeking to demonstrate that a vast cultural gulf separated them from Romans, Procopius and Corippus – as well as a number of other secular poets and ecclesiastical writers from both Africa and the rest of the late antique Mediterranean – brought together a wide array of cultural prejudices and chauvinism, which they wielded like weapons. Moors and Romans, these authors insisted, could be distinguished by the whole range of traditional markers of ethnic identity: language, diet, dress and battlegear, military tactics, marriage customs, religion, and even the perceived darkness of their skin.

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: 10th to 11th century AD Iraqi Physician Ibn Butlan wrote, “The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters… “ cited in Gender and sexuality in the Middle Ages by Martha A. Brożyna p. 303 2005.

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According to the merchant Abû 'Uthmân, the ideal slave is the Berber girl who is exported from her country at the age of nine, who spends three years in Medina and three years in the Mekke, and who arrives at sixteen in Mesopotamia to be educated in a refined manner. Thus, when she is sold at twenty-five, she possesses her racial excellence, Medina the coquetry of the Medina, the delicacy of the Makko and the culture of a Mesopotamian woman. In the markets, the black women are highlighted, it is the blackest, the ugliest, and what that one distinguishes best are the teeth. (...) They are fickle and careless. Dancing and clapping are part of their nature. (...) They have very white teeth because of their saliva. The smell emitted by their armpit is unpleasant and their skin is coarse. (...) With a beautiful skin, the Turkish woman is full of grace and animation. Her eyes are small but seductive. They are round and tend to be small. There are very few tall ones among them. They are prolific in children but their offspring are offspring is rarely unsightly.

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: 14th century - Sir John Mandeville had written : Though men of Nubia be Christian, they be as the Moors from the great heat of the sun, written by English Knight, Sir John Mandeville, (died 1372). See chapter 7 of the Travels of Sir John Mandeville (Penguin Classics).

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despite such terms as "Arabian Moors" or "Turkish Moors", both were usually described as mouros brancos ("white moors"), while Berber and sub-saharan muslims were frequently distinguished between mouros da terra (Portuguese for "moors from the land") or mouros negros (black moors). [...] This complex relation between ethnicity, geography and religion informed the evolution of "blackamoor", often used alongside region-inflected words like "Niger" or "Ethiop". English grammars and dictionaries of the time made similar associations: "a black more, or a man of Ethiope"; The Negro[sic], which we call the Black-mores.

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: Introduction

All the early major Berber tribes including the Masmuda, Sanhaja, Ketama Zenata and Nafusa are described as dark reddish brown like the “Indi’ or as “blacks” or Ethiopians in early documents. The notion of the early Berbers as being “whites” or Caucasoid is a new and racist one related to the concept of the African “Hamite”. Certainly the original Berber-speakers were never referred to as anything but “black” or something near it until the 12th century and were otherwise considered the color of Abyssinians and other so called “Indi”.
Even the Kabyles a notoriously fair-skinned “Berber” people of North Africa are up until the 19th century described as “brown” "apart from a few clans". (See quotes below). The knowledge that Europeans were changing the complexion literally and figuratively of North Africa up until the 19th century has disappeared from modern European histories. Most know about the large part played by sub-saharan black slaves in the making of modern North Africa and Arabia while the white slave trade which was in fact dominant trade in North Africa until the fall of Constantinople (Istanbul in Turkey) in the 15th century had been largely ignored in historical writings of the 20th. Yet it was only a few centuries ago that Europeans visiting North Africa commenting on the fact that, “on almost every street of the cities of Barbary, Europeans could be seen harnessed to carts like draught horses or selling water from jars loaded on the backs of donkeys”.

1809 Commentary on those called “Moors” by an early 19th century observer: “They carry the Christian captives about the desert to the different markets to sell them for they soon discover that their habits of life render them unserviceable , or very inferior to the black slaves of Timbuktoo. “ from An Account of the Empire of Marocco, by J. G. Jackson published 1809 and 1814.

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: 2003 - “From 1500 to 1650 when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy more Europeans were taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas. See, Robert Davis Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800, MacMillan Publishers, published 2003.

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But few white slaves exported as such from Europe were sold in the Maghreb after the high Middle Ages. [...] Whatever the case, the fact remains that so long as the Arab World needed black slaves, it had to keep on importing them, from across the Sahara, down the Nile Valley, or by sea from East Africa"

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Slavery was an ancient institution in Morocco." Located at the northern terminus of the trans-Saharan trade routes, for many centuries Morocco received a continuous influx of slaves from West Africa, the Sahara, and the Mediterranean regions. However, the majority of slaves in Morocco came from the Western Sudan through the trans-Saharan trade. A large number of captives were taken from the Western Sudan during the Sa'adiyyin invasion of the kingdom of Songhay at the end of the sixteenth century. The import of West African slaves into Morocco continued until the late nineteenth century when the French occupied the region. Slaves were brought to Tafilalt in southern Morocco via Tuwat, from which they were distributed to the rest of the country. Although the French succeeded in curtailing the slave trade from West Africa, clandestine slave trafficking continued throughout the first two decades of the twentieth century. Slave markets existed in major Moroccan cities such as Fez, Rabat, and Marrakesh."

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This undeclared naval war delivered thousands of Christians, captured at sea or in raids on the coasts of southern Europe and islands, as slaves to the Barbary states. It has been suggested that there may have been between 20,000 and 50,000 such slaves in Algiers and surroundings in the sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries; a peak of 10,000 in Tunis at the end of the sixteenth century; while Tripoli had only 1,500 such slaves, at most, in the late seventeenth century. Numbers fell in the eighteenth century as the main European fleets (France, Britain, Holland) became more powerful. By the late 1780s there were barely 500 European slaves in Algiers, with only 1,500 in Tunis and some 600 in Tripoli at the beginning of the nineteenth century "

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quote:

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Mass Arab enslavement of Black Africans began in the seventh century , soon after the founding of Islam and the beginning of Arab-Islamic civilisation. It lasted at least until the early part of the twentieth century. Roughly 4,820,000 Black Africans were taken into slavery in North Africa between 650 and 1600 AD alone (Harich et al. 2010). Approximately 14 million Blacks were wrenched from their homelands and forced into slavery in the Muslim World as a whole from the seventh to twentieth century (Harich et al. 2010).

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The question of the volume of this trade is obviously difficult to determine. Let us say that the total volume of slavery in Arab and Muslim lands could not have been less than 20 million. If this figure could be refined, we would probably arrive at an estimate of between 15 and 30 million enslaved people, for different reasons (war, trade, barter) and in different bodies (domesticity, army, administration, agriculture, harem), and this, at a corrected annual average of 2 to 3 million per century.

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quote:

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"In his monumental Tableau géographique de l’Ouest Africain au moyen age, Raymond Mauny estimated that in its first 900 years (seventh–fifteenth centuries), the Islamic Saharan trade delivered nearly 6 million live black slaves to the far side of the desert. According to his calculations, the trade started at a modest average rate of 1,000 slaves/year in the seventh century, doubled in the next century and again in the ninth, reached 5,000 slaves/year in thirteenth century, doubled to 10,000/year in the fourteenth century, and doubled again to 20,000/year in the fifteenth. The trade continued at that average yearly rate, Mauny believed, until the twentieth century; however he later revised his figures upwards125 (see Table 3.1)."

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John Wright, the Trans-Saharan Slave Trade, pp. 38





The genetic influence of these black slaves is detected (meanwhile I challenge you to find the impact of european slaves) :

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Comparing our results with previously reported genome-wide data, we also find evidence for a sex-biased sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africans, suggesting that historical events such as the trans-Saharan slave trade mainly contributed to the mtDNA and autosomal gene pool, whereas the northern African paternal gene pool was mainly shaped by more ancient events."

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quote:

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A proportion of 1/4 to 1/2 of North African female pool is made of typical sub-Saharan lineages, in higher frequencies as geographic proximity to sub-Saharan Africa increases. The Sahara was a strong geographical barrier against gene flow, at least since 5,000 years ago, when desertification affected a larger region, but the Arab trans-Saharan slave trade could have facilitate enormously this migration of lineages." "The interpolation analyses and complete sequencing of present mtDNA sub-Saharan lineages observed in North Africa support the genetic impact of recent trans-Saharan migrations, namely the slave trade initiated by the Arab conquest of North Africa in the seventh century. Sub-Saharan people did not leave traces in the North African maternal gene pool for the time of its settlement, some 40,000 years ago.

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quote:

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Other L3 lineages seem to have been introduced even in more recent times, during the slave trade initiated by the Arab conquest of North Africa [67]. The Near Eastern haplogroups J and T (and probably K) appear to be concentrated more towards the east [68], mirroring the higher densities of U6, H and V in the west [64].

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Our most recent estimated dates correlate with sub-Saharan admixture in North Africa, which is continuous during the last few centuries (from the 13th century to the 20th century, see cluster L in fig. 5), as previously suggested by historical records (Newman 1995) and genetic data (Harich et al. 2010; Henn et al. 2012). However, it is noteworthy that very precise dates are found in some cases in the 17th century in western clusters (see cluster K and M). The admixture dates in the 17th century could be the consequence of the trans-Saharan slave trade that resulted from the Ottoman rule in North Africa and the arrival of the Crown of Castile and the Portuguese Kingdom to the West African seaports in the 16th century. The Iberian presence, driven by the search of a workforce in their recent settled Atlantic territories, modified the political and socioeconomic structure of Western Africa. This also intensified traffic through trans-Saharan routes to North Africa after the emergence of the sugar industry in this region and the Atlantic territories (Newman 1995; Oliver and Atmore 2001; Da Mosto 2003). Comparison of inferred ancestry proportions between the autosomes and X chromosome in Cluster M is indicative of sex-biased admixture with an overabundance of males with Middle Eastern (Syrian-like) ancestry and females with sub-Saharan African (Yoruba-like) ancestry. Moreover, we infer a lower proportion of sub-Saharan ancestry older than previously described in all admixture events dated from the first century B.C., which could be attributed to more ancient slave trade during the Roman or Islamic periods, such as the servile Haratin population of Nilo-Saharan origin in Berber groups such as the Sanhadja and Zenata (Newman 1995). Caution is warranted, however, as there are serious difficulties in reliably estimating the proportions contributed by each source population in the admixture events, mainly because the lack of a proper ancestral North African population. In our analyses, we have considered the population from Tunisia Chenini as the best proxy, but genetic drift in Chenini samples due to isolation and interbreeding might substantially underestimate the contribution of the autochthonous ancestral groups in extant North African populations."

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https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/34/2/318/2680801#58231020
 

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Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Guiseppe Sergi in his The Mediterranean Race, cited Diodorus Siculus of the 1st century who spoke “in reference to the expedition of Agathocles, of three Libyan tribes on the coast of Tunisia, the Micatani and Zufoni (see Zafan) who were nomads and the Asfodelodi, who by the color of their skin resembled the Ethiopians” (G. Sergi, p. 50).The name of these Micatani nomads of Tripolitania also known as "Ucutamani" or "Mactunia Manus" in ancient texts is retained among the modern Tuareg as Imakitan - a designation for many eastern Tuareg. They are the Kutama or Kitama Berbers - a Sanhaja related group whose women were mentioned as black by Ibn Butlan.of the 9th century..








If and I say if with a big IF... admixture with Nilo Saharans/Yoruba occurred during roman times then a moorish princess that looked like this by the 15th century is totally possible.. so casting was not far off.. or casting was open to possiblitities...



 

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Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
Guiseppe Sergi in his The Mediterranean Race, cited Diodorus Siculus of the 1st century who spoke “in reference to the expedition of Agathocles, of three Libyan tribes on the coast of Tunisia, the Micatani and Zufoni (see Zafan) who were nomads and the Asfodelodi, who by the color of their skin resembled the Ethiopians” (G. Sergi, p. 50).The name of these Micatani nomads of Tripolitania also known as "Ucutamani" or "Mactunia Manus" in ancient texts is retained among the modern Tuareg as Imakitan - a designation for many eastern Tuareg. They are the Kutama or Kitama Berbers - a Sanhaja related group whose women were mentioned as black by Ibn Butlan.of the 9th century..

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quote:

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Furthermore, these latter populations are more closely related to QCP than to people from Western Europe and the Caucasus. The admixture analysis confirms the similarity of North African human groups with QCP. Archaeological evidence could be consistent with at least a cultural impact of Northern African people on the individuals buried in QCP. Indeed, several personal goods recovered in the necropolis and funeral architectures seem to wire the southern shores of the Mediterranean Sea to QCP.

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Imperial Rome individuals from QCP suggest a certain degree of similarity with North African and Middle Eastern individuals. Specifically, QCP43 is placed among present-day Israelis and Jordanians, while QCP29, QCP39, QCP40, and QCP42 fall in the North African cluster

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https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/03014460.2021.1944313


hellenistic art bronze head of a noble north african, 300 BC





Head of a young berber, IInd-IIIrd century CE :




Heads of dignitaries Kerkouane Tunisia, 3rd century BC




Mortuary mask of a berber man from el jem, IIId century AD




Oldest depiction of Saint Augustin, VIth century :




Moorish emperor Macrinus :


 

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Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Not a Berber....




Macrinus was born in Caesarea (modern Cherchell, Algeria) in the Roman province of Mauretania Caesariensis


What appears to be certain, however, is that Marcus Opellius Macrinus was born in Caesarea, the capital of the Roman province of Mauretania Caesarienis (modern Cherchell in Algeria). Although our sources say that he was from a poor family, his parents must have belonged to the local elite, because they could send their son to school. He became a lawyer, the normal office for an ambitious young Roman, and was even able to migrate to Rome itself. Here, he seems to have been regarded as a typical small-towner: he was no match for the clever legal experts, but his provincial honesty made him friends. As Cassius Dio says: "his knowledge of the laws and precedents was not so accurate as his observance of them was faithful".
 

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Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
Not a Berber....

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that's a twitter post meanwhile I got the info from a book :




but if he wasn't what would he be ? Roman ? hahahah
 

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Posted by Techtronics (Member # 15917) on :
 
Whatever floats your boat babe. 😎
 

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Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:


Macrinus was born in Caesarea (modern Cherchell, Algeria) in the Roman province of Mauretania Caesariensis


What appears to be certain, however, is that Marcus Opellius Macrinus was born in Caesarea, the capital of the Roman province of Mauretania Caesarienis (modern Cherchell in Algeria). Although our sources say that he was from a poor family, his parents must have belonged to the local elite, because they could send their son to school. He became a lawyer, the normal office for an ambitious young Roman, and was even able to migrate to Rome itself. Here, he seems to have been regarded as a typical small-towner: he was no match for the clever legal experts, but his provincial honesty made him friends. As Cassius Dio says: "his knowledge of the laws and precedents was not so accurate as his observance of them was faithful". [/QB]

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Cassius Dio, writing in the third century and himself a Roman senator and consul from Bithynia, reflects these attitudes in his contemptuous remarks regarding the Mauretanian origins of the “usurper” emperor, Macrinus, who “because of his natural cowardice (being a Moor [Mauros], he was terribly timorous) and his soldiers’ ill-discipline, did not dare to fight on” (Cassius Dio 79.27). In Cassius Dio’s representation, Macrinus is certainly not “just like an Italian.” Instead, his ethnicity is marked in his moral character and physical appearance (e.g., his pierced ear: Cassius Dio 79.11) in ways that express his political illegitimacy

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
St. Augustine is one of the most important thinkers in the history of the world. Staggeringly brilliant, rhetorically unmatched, and – most importantly – utterly committed to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, Augustine set the tone for Western theology and philosophy for the next millennium and a half – an influence that hasn’t waned to this day. Even St. Thomas Aquinas, his only possible rival in importance, was an Augustinian.

And it’s possible he was black.

Of course, modern conceptions of race are a social construct and so it’s anachronistic to directly apply them backwards in time to the 4th century. And skin color is ultimately accidental – we’re all created in the imago dei as human beings.

But given modern problems of racism, it seems noteworthy that a father of Western scholarship may have been a colored man.

I say “may” because ultimately we don’t know for sure what Augustine looked like exactly. But here’s what we do know:

We know Augustine was born in Thagaste, Numidia, a trading town surrounded by forest in North Africa. So he was African.

While his father was a Roman colonist, it is believed that his mother Monica was Berber, an ethnic group indigenous to North Africa. So he may have had darker skin.

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The calculation of probabilities allows us to infer that he was undoubtedly of pure Berber race" (his surname Aurelius suggests that his ancestors had been naturalized, with all the mass of the provincials, by the famous constitution of the emperor Caracalla in 212). [...] Moreover, on the military level, Cagnat (1912) underlines the weak numerical importance of the troops of occupation to which the texts testify. This limitation of manpower was accompanied by a local recruitment, preponderant at certain times. (...) And, towards 150, for example, "Rome judged its authority sufficiently based to ensure the order almost only with Berber contingents.

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

Your own people call some of the Native Oasis dewllers Ganaw, correct, so then whats the big deal....There blacks native to North Africa along with your people.

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Originally posted by Antalas:


depicted most andalusians as nigerian looking, etc

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Originally posted by Antalas:
Tukuler called us "miscegenated"

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Originally posted by Antalas:
... meanwhile I've seen moroccan blacks having important amount of IBM ancestry at the same level as "white" berbers which is very interesting.

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Originally posted by Tukuler:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

Your own people call some of the Native Oasis dewllers Ganaw, correct, so then whats the big deal....There blacks native to North Africa along with your people.

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.


For the record
Gnawa cannot be native to Sahra oases.
Gnawa, long story short, means Guinea
and originally refered to blx from south
of the Senegal and is used in dichotomy
to Berber both in geo-origin and language.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:
Tukuler called us "miscegenated"

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.

Because you are according to everybody
from yte Greco-Latin authors to today's
Euro yte geneticists.

It's a fact. Live with it.
In particular
You a shook, mixed up ...
predominantly Ottoman Turk
spawn per your own genetic disclosure.

Why feel bad about it?
Every people on Earth are miscegenated
few as thoroughly so and throughout all
recorded time as the coastal northwest
Africans calling themselves descendants
of Mazigh and pejoratively dubbed Berber
by conquering Arabs who thought taMazight
sounded like so much bar bar bar bar bar.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:
... meanwhile I've seen moroccan blacks having important amount of IBM ancestry at the same level as "white" berbers which is very interesting.

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.

Why put white in parenthesis?
Arabic records use white for iMazighen in general.
Leo Africanus used white, it was the Pory xlated
white into tawny. Amazigh nationalists/militants
promote white identity, native African white ID.
True a few balk at being called white because not
wanting confusion w/yte Euros.


Africa has been recorded as a Two Colour Continent
since primary AE textual documents right down to
today and by archaeology inferences even before then.


What's so interesting about the continuity of
blacks in Morocco when the ancients have told
us Aethiopians controlled even further north
than the Souss and Adrar right across from
the Canary Islands named by Juba.


Only interested to the made up minded prejudiced
Afrocentrics, like you Antalas, who either never
dispassionately examined the historic prime texts
or else does a retain-only-what-I-already-believe skim read 'analysis'.

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Because today "white" is mostly associated and synonymous of european.
 

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Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
For Laypersons like Antalas & Me..

A great break down


How Can Y-DNA Haplogroup E be African if Haplogroup C is not in Africa?

They explain in the study that;
Two separate migrations were made out of Africa within a short time period. The Hadza/Mota type haplogroup B people were the source of both. The first migration was to Asia. After B left Africa, they mixed with archaic humans in Asia that led to the emergence of (C). Within a short time after that, the B carriers that didn’t leave Africa mixed with another C group in Africa (CT) which led to the emergence of (DE) which also left Africa at some point.
However, not all the CT carriers left Africa. One dominant group remained in North East Africa, mixed with older humans, giving brh to DE and became the ancestor of the present-day Niger-Congo and Bantu farmers.
The study confirms that both DE and E were born in North East Africa and all the evidence is looking like Haplogroup E1b1b also developed in Africa.

What Other Evidence is There About the E1b1b Carriers?

The recent 2018 study on the 15,000-year-old ancient remains of the Iberomarusians in North Africa that showed that the ancient E1b1b individuals had the following characteristics;
They carried little to no Neanderthal admixture. Heavy Neanderthal/Denisovan admixture is a sign of Asian/Australoid heritage - Tibetans, Australian aborigines and some Melanesians carry on average 4-6% Neanderthal/Denisovan ancestry (the highest in all humans). However, the tiny amount carried by the ancient remains of the Iberomarusians was on par with the amounts currently found in Sub-Saharan Africa. This may suggest much closer links to Africa . However, this doesn’t rule out the fact that an Australoid-type (Neanderthal + African mixed) people inhabited the Middle East at some point. There were lots of back and forth migrations into Africa.
[IMG]They lacked the SLC24A5 Indo European depigmentation genes - certainly, they were not white like present-day North Africans who carry those genes. This has been proven by the Taforalt study.[/IMG]
Their DNA was partially related to the ancient Natufian remains found in the Levant and were most likely ancestral to the Levantine Natufians.
They had the same burial practices as found in Ancient Egypt - the dead were buried facing the West. So there is a clear connection with the Taforalt population and the ancient Egyptians.
They carried the Hadza genetic component as well as some West Eurasian ancestry. This has been proven by the Taforalt study which showed 5% Hadza ancestry.
Most importantly, they were lactose intolerant which is a common trait of Sub Saharan Africans. Again, this has been proven by the Taforalt study.
Another recent study from the Dzudzuana caves in Georgia revealed that West Africans (represented by the Yoruba) carry 12% DNA passed down from a Taforalt/Iberomarusian related group (one branch of the Ancient North African (ANA) DNA is now extinct and their ghost presence only shows up in West African DNA samples).

The thing is - if West Africans carry an ancient North African DNA but show no signs of the SLC24A5 depigmentation genes found in present-day North Africans, the ancient North Africans evidently did not look like the present. How can this be? We’ll find out later, but first, let’s see how the ancient E1b1b carriers compare to the present day carriers.

How do these findings compare with the present-day E1b1b carriers?

Although the modern-day North Africans from Morocco have managed to maintain the male Y-DNA of their ancestors, they now carry higher amounts of Neanderthal DNA which their Taforalt ancestors did not carry.

In addition, modern-day North Africans are mostly of a light-skinned West Eurasian/Indo European descent, but as previously stated, the ancient Taforalt remains were mostly of a dark-skinned Ancient North African (ANA) DNA mixed with a West Eurasian MtDNA, ‘In contrast, present-day North Africans have minimal ANA-related contribution'
This means that somewhere down the line, North Africans have received a heavy amount of migration from West Eurasia or Europe that has gradually displaced the ANA element . So, clearly, the ancient North Africans would not have looked physically like the modern population.
What else did the study find?

The study on the Taforalt remains in Northern Morocco also revealed that these ancient individuals did not carry the light skin depigmentation gene SLC24A5. The depigmentation gene is only 8000 years old and has been in Africa for around 3,000 - 5000 years and is said to have come from Anatolia (West Eurasia). It wasn’t carried by the Taforalt individuals but it is now overwhelmingly found across the Middle East and North Africa).


Quote from the study;

“Phenotypic analysis was performed on four of the Taforalt individuals with higher genomic coverage. The Taforalt individuals tested did NOT carry either of the derived SLC24A5 alleles associated with lighter skin color, the derived OCA2 allele associated with blue eye color, or the derived MCM6 allele associated with lactase persistence. However, they were found to carry the ancestral SLC24A4 allele associated with dark eye color.“
How exactly does SLC24A5 affect skin colour?
The SLC24A5 gene's derived threonine or Ala111Thr allele (rs1426654) has been shown to be a major factor in the light skin tone of Europeans compared to Sub-Saharan Africans, and is believed to represent as much as 25–40% of the average skin tone difference between Europeans and West Africans.

Researchers found that all individuals from the Middle East, North Africa, East Africa, and South India who carry the A111T mutation share a common “fingerprint” -- traces of the ancestral genetic code -- in the corresponding chromosomal region, indicating that all existing instances of this mutation originate from the same person. (This is evidence of a separate migration of white-skinned West Eurasians). Carriers of SLC24a5 spread across Northern and Southern Europe, the Middle East and North Africa in the last 3,000 - 5,000 years.


This means that somewhere down the line, the Ancient black skinned North Africans received those light skin alleles through heavy admixture with a much later migration of Indo Europeans or light-skinned West Eurasians, hence why SLC24A5 is not found in present-day West Africa.

West Africans received their ‘North African’ DNA by the ancient group of dark-skinned North Africans that were in Africa 35,000 years before being replaced by the modern ones. The modern ones have inherited the Y-DNA of the ancient ones. Who were these ancient dark-skinned North Africans? Nobody knows. We’ll take a look later at who they might have been; but first, let’s look at the image below.

The image below is of SLC24A5 carriers with dark green being the strongest. Even South Asians and East Africans carry this depigmentation gene - as dark as they are. Only West Africans/Southern Africans and East Asians lack it. Image Source: The Light Skin Allele of SLC24A5 in South Asians and Europeans Shares Identity by Descent

Who were the Iberomaurusians?

Taforalt/Iberomaurusians were half ANA (Ancient North African) and half Eurasian (from an earlier migration of West Eurasians into North Africa).
Who were the ancient north Africans?

The Ancient North African population (ANA) was not Eurasian. They were more like the Omotic people of Ethiopia or Mota populations (a type of native black African - native to North-East Africa) . They were more or less related to the group that left Africa, settled in Europe and the Middle East, and became the ancestors of Eurasians. However, they were black-skinned and native to Africa. One branch did not leave Africa.
Who were the West Eurasians?

The West Eurasian DNA found in the Taforalt/Iberomarusian samples were most likely Eurasians that had returned back to Africa. However, they were black skinned people as SLC24A5 was not found in their gene s. Although they were dark-skinned, they would have looked distinct from other black populations due to Neanderthal admixture.

They were more or less a Cheddar man type people with straight hair and dark skin but didn’t have blue eyes like Cheddar man. These Eurasian females had mixed with ANA men probably in North Africa, the Middle East or Eurasia.

So Are Modern Day North African Mixed with Two West Eurasian Groups?

Yes. The minor West Eurasian component in the Taforalt/Iberomarusian samples lacked the SLC24A5 genes. This proves that they were different from the West Eurasians that arrived in full-blown force 5,000 years ago carrying SLC24A5 in their genes. So, we are talking about two different types of Eurasians - black ones and white ones.

Various waves of West Asians entered Africa, the first being dark-skinned and the latter waves being white-skinned. The vast majority of the ancient North Africans ended up in present-day Mauritania and were settlers in Dhar Tichitt ) before the white-skinned Berbers and Arabs arrived in Africa via Libya.

CREDIT: @TUKULER



As described earlier, the first Eurasians were probably more of a Cheddar Man/Australoid/pre-Dravidian or Melanesian type people who lived across Asia, Southern Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa, for thousands of years before being absorbed by the Indo European SLC24A5 carriers who arrived to North Africa 3,000 - 5,000 years ago. This is also supported by the ‘Cheddar Man'theory.
The most prominent were the ancestors of the Bafour people or ‘Pharusians’ whose presence have been recorded in North Africa. They were black-skinned people who are said to have come to West Africa directly from Ancient Egypt 9,000 years ago: They lived mostly in North Africa and had the same burial practices as the Ancient Egyptians.
Some historians say that the Bafour were African in origin, others say they had historical roots in Southern Yemen/Northern Ethiopia or ancient India (but bore no resemblance to present-day Yemenis/Indians who are now mixed with Semitic/Indo European or ancient Iranian farmers). They could have also been related to the Natufians of the Levant.

What did the E1b1b carriers look like?
Nobody knows what the Ancient E1b1b carriers looked like. They were certainly black-skinned but may have looked distinct from other Africans.
The original E1b1b carriers have now been renamed as the Ancient North Africans (ANA) as they no longer exist in North Africa in their true form. Present-day West Africans are said to carry a ‘ghost’ DNA from these ANA people.


Although the original ‘Cheddar Man’ phenotype of the first West Asian North Africans has been lost due to admixture with various groups, it can still be observed upon entering the West African Sahel region, just like the girl below.
West African Sahelian girl with Straight hair and dark skin.




https://dunia-douara.blogspot.com/2019/07/haplogroup-e1b1b-origins-expansions.html
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:
... they never want to question the origin of these black north africans even though for instance these blacks themselves claims to be bambara[sic]/hausa[sic]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:
gnawen/ginawen means in berber "black people" "burned people"

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Incorrect. The plural in taMazight lects is formed
by affixing an "i" and suffixing "en" onto the root.
Go back to school and learn your language.
Learn it in the USA at Howard University
the only college offering it last I checked
over a decade ago.

How about that? Blx despised and prejudicially assumed
Afrocentric are the ones teaching taMazight! Hahah.

__________________________________________________________

https://cfas.howard.edu/articles/alumni-highlights-interview-darryl-l-jones-ii

How are you using your African language training in your current position?

My African language training (Arabic) enabled me to obtain a lucrative signing bonus as well as monthly incentive pay to continuously improve my proficiency. It is noteworthy that I had no knowledge of the language prior to my studies at Howard. In addition to Arabic, I studied Tamazight ("Berber") and its associated alphabet script, Tifinagh, which even most Tamazight speakers are unable to read or write due to its (re)creation and (re)introduction into northwest African societies only a few decades ago. I have not been able to use my Tamazight language skills in a professional capacity as of yet, but because it is a specialized language and critical in northwest Africa, I am certain that they will be employed and proved useful in assisting with certain activities.



^ I an akli know taMazight better than you. Now go call me Afrocentric you bigot.


_____________________________________________________

TAMAZIGHT - a branch of the Afrisan family of African languages link
 

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Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

They carried little to no Neanderthal admixture. Heavy Neanderthal/Denisovan admixture is a sign of Asian/Australoid heritage - Tibetans, Australian aborigines and some Melanesians carry on average 4-6% Neanderthal/Denisovan ancestry (the highest in all humans). However, the tiny amount carried by the ancient remains of the Iberomarusians was on par with the amounts currently found in Sub-Saharan Africa. This may suggest much closer links to Africa . However, this doesn’t rule out the fact that an Australoid-type (Neanderthal + African mixed) people inhabited the Middle East at some point. There were lots of back and forth migrations into Africa.

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quote:

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This suggests that most of IAM ancestry originates from an out-of-Africa source, as IAM shares more alleles with Levantines than with any sub-Saharan Africans, including the 4,500-y-old genome from Ethiopia (14). To further test the hypothesis that IAM is more closely related to out-of-Africa populations, we determined whether we could detect Neanderthal ancestry in IAM, which is typical of non-African populations. A signal of Neanderthal ancestry has been detected in modern North African populations (26). A lack of Neanderthal ancestry in IAM would imply that the signal observed today is a product of more recent migration into North Africa from the Middle East and Europe in historical times. Compared with the Neanderthal high coverage genome sequence from Altai (27) and the low-coverage sequence from Vindija Cave (28), and using the S statistic (24), we detected a Neanderthal introgression signal into IAM, suggesting derivation from the same event shared by non-African populations (SI Appendix, Supplementary Note 10).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: [IMG]They lacked the SLC24A5 Indo European depigmentation genes - certainly, they were not white like present-day North Africans who carry those genes. This has been proven by the Taforalt study.[/IMG]
Their DNA was partially related to the ancient Natufian remains found in the Levant and were most likely ancestral to the Levantine Natufians.
They had the same burial practices as found in Ancient Egypt - the dead were buried facing the West. So there is a clear connection with the Taforalt population and the ancient Egyptians.
They carried the Hadza genetic component as well as some West Eurasian ancestry. This has been proven by the Taforalt study which showed 5% Hadza ancestry.
Most importantly, they were lactose intolerant which is a common trait of Sub Saharan Africans. Again, this has been proven by the Taforalt study.
Another recent study from the Dzudzuana caves in Georgia revealed that West Africans (represented by the Yoruba) carry 12% DNA passed down from a Taforalt/Iberomarusian related group (one branch of the Ancient North African (ANA) DNA is now extinct and their ghost presence only shows up in West African DNA samples).
The thing is - if West Africans carry an ancient North African DNA but show no signs of the SLC24A5 depigmentation genes found in present-day North Africans, the ancient North Africans evidently did not look like the present. How can this be? We’ll find out later, but first, let’s see how the ancient E1b1b carriers compare to the present day carriers.

---

quote:

---

On the other hand, KEB individuals exhibit some European-derived alleles that predispose individuals to lighter skin and eye color, including those on genes SLC24A5 (rs1426654) and OCA2 (rs1800401) (SI Appendix, Supplementary Note 11).

---

quote:

---

"The TCHH1 gene codes for trichohyalin, a protein active in hair follicle roots. For all Taforalt individuals we find the derived homozygous AA genotype for SNP rs17646946 in this gene, which has been associated with straighter hair in Europeans (allelic effect (ß) = 0.4-0.5, explained variance = 6.11%) (98).

---

quote:

---

"Finally, we analyzed two SNP variants that have been studied in relation to susceptibility for mycobacterial infections (80). A derived allele of rs4833103 in the TLR1-6-10 gene, which encodes an active functional component in the innate immune response, is associated with a possibly increased resistance to leprosy, tuberculosis and other mycobacteria (104, 105). All Taforalt individuals show the derived homozygote CC genotype. In present-day populations the derived allele state has a high frequency in Eurasians but a low frequency, or absence, in sub805 Saharan Africans."

---

quote:

---

The Late Pleistocene material from Afalou and Taforalt in North Africa, on the other hand, had no similarity with sub-Saharan Africa. Instead, the groups from which it cannot be distinguished range from the Neolithic of Algeria and Egypt, modern Nubia, and especially modern Europe. The pattern of affiliations of the Algerian Neolithic is remarkably similar to that of the Algerian Late Pleistocene at Afalou and Taforalt and suggests long-term in situ population continuity.

---

quote:

---

The 21 specimens analyzed are sufficient to give a good idea of the characteristics of the Taforalt population. None of these specimens are related to present-day sub-Sudanese specimens (absence of haplogroup L, grouping typically sub-Saharan African haplotypes). The hypothesis of an origin south of the Sahara of the Iberomaurusians is therefore not supported by our results, showing rather a Mediterranean-type settlement in North Africa at least until 12,000 years ago. Our results would support work based on dental, craniofacial morphometric and post-cranial analyses showing divergences between IberoMaurusian populations and their contemporaries in Sudan (Bermudez de Castro 1991, Irish 2000). The presence of a sub-Saharan component in present-day North African populations would be due to migrations after 12,000 years BP.

---

http://puvodni.mzm.cz/Anthropologie/downloads/articles/2005/Kefi_2005_p1-11.pdf

reconstructions :







Taforalt populations were genetically closer to modern north africans than any other african population :

quote:

---

When we compare pair-wise FST distances, the most striking result is that IAM presents rather high FST values with all populations except for Taforalt (0.049). The following closest populations are KEB and Guanches (Figure S9.1) with FST values of 0.090 (similar to the distance between Yoruba and Mbuti) and 0.119 (similar to the distance between Somali and Mbuti), respectively. In fact, IAM is in general as distant to other Eurasians as it is the Yoruba population, following the same pattern observed previously for Taforalt. In a detailed population-by-population comparison (Figure S9.2), we can see that IAM is closer to modern North African populations, following the west to east trend described before, in such a way Saharawis and Moroccans are closer than Egyptians (Figure S9.3)."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: Although the modern-day North Africans from Morocco have managed to maintain the male Y-DNA of their ancestors, they now carry higher amounts of Neanderthal DNA which their Taforalt ancestors did not carry.
In addition, modern-day North Africans are mostly of a light-skinned West Eurasian/Indo European descent, but as previously stated, the ancient Taforalt remains were mostly of a dark-skinned Ancient North African (ANA) DNA mixed with a West Eurasian MtDNA, ‘In contrast, present-day North Africans have minimal ANA-related contribution'
This means that somewhere down the line, North Africans have received a heavy amount of migration from West Eurasia or Europe that has gradually displaced the ANA element. So, clearly, the ancient North Africans would not have looked physically like the modern population.
What else did the study find?

---

Whut ?? Taforalt already had "minimal" level of ANA ancestry and were predominantly west eurasian :



and this "heavy amount of migration" actually isn't recent but prehistoric :

quote:

---

By 3,000 BCE, a continuity in the Neolithic spread brought Mediterranean-like ancestry to the Maghreb, most likely from Iberia. Other archaeological remains, such as African elephant ivory and ostrich eggs found in Iberian sites, confirm the existence of contacts and exchange networks through both sides of the Gibraltar strait at this time. Our analyses strongly support that at least some of the European ancestry observed today in North Africa is related to prehistoric migrations, and local Berber populations were already admixed with Europeans before the Roman conquest. Furthermore, additional European/Iberian ancestry could have reached the Maghreb after KEB people; this scenario is supported by the presence of Iberian-like Bell-Beaker pottery in more recent stratigraphic layers of IAM and KEB caves . Future paleogenomic efforts in North Africa will further disentangle the complex history of migrations that forged the ancestry of the admixed populations we observe today.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: This means that somewhere down the line, the Ancient black skinned North Africans received those light skin alleles through heavy admixture with a much later migration of Indo Europeans or light-skinned West Eurasians, hence why SLC24A5 is not found in present-day West Africa. West Africans received their ‘North African’ DNA by the ancient group of dark-skinned North Africans that were in Africa 35,000 years before being replaced by the modern ones. The modern ones have inherited the Y-DNA of the ancient ones. Who were these ancient dark-skinned North Africans? Nobody knows. We’ll take a look later at who they might have been; but first, let’s look at the image below.
The image below is of SLC24A5 carriers with dark green being the strongest. Even South Asians and East Africans carry this depigmentation gene - as dark as they are. Only West Africans/Southern Africans and East Asians lack it. Image Source: The Light Skin Allele of SLC24A5 in South Asians and Europeans Shares Identity by Descent

---

quote:

---

We inferred that the non-West African proportion in the Fulani were introduced through two admixture events (Additional file 1: Table S2), dated to 1828 years ago (95% CI: 1517-2138) and 302 years ago (95% CI: 237–368). [...] However, if both ancestries are present in the demographic model (Additional file 2: Figure S11 C and D), only a North African ancestry population (mixed with a European population) can be a potential ancestor to the Fulani from Burkina Faso, whereas the model where Europeans directly mixed with West Africans to produce the Fulani is not significant.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
[qb] gnawen/ginawen means in berber "black people" "burned people"

---

Incorrect. The plural in taMazight lects is formed
by affixing an "i" and suffixing "en" onto the root.
Go back to school and learn your language.
Learn it in the USA at Howard University
the only college offering it last I checked
over a decade ago.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
[qb] gnawen/ginawen means in berber "black people" "burned people"

---

Incorrect. The plural in taMazight lects is formed
by affixing an "i" and suffixing "en" onto the root.
Go back to school and learn your language.
Learn it in the USA at Howard University
the only college offering it last I checked
over a decade ago.

---

??? yes ok if you want to talk like in a classroom that would be ignawen but it doesn't change its meaning

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
My ppl did not receive N Afr ancestry recently.

In fact one ADMIXTURE graph charts the Fulani
element as 'birthing' the aMazight element.
Proto-Fulani were the early Holocene Sahra herders
yet everybody jumps on the yte Afrs introducing
pastoralism to Dinka, Nuer, etc w/o applying
logic.

Is something wrong when genetics completely
counters all other cross discipline results?

Lactase persistance oldest in Fulani
yet claimed to be the European gene.

Sahra's "Sudanese". Now forgotten
and even the Bir and the Playa
now attributed to Sahra's Gafsians

Just the continuing onslaught to
remove blx from even their own
territorial history. Something
that began w/t Atlantic slavery
demanding blx be dehumanized to
salve the conscious of the enslavers.


https://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/2795/pbs-2018-nabta-playa-nekhen

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
[QB] Just admit you were wrong w/o trying to justify your error.

That's what I do. I don't make excuses for why I'm right when I'm wrong like you do. I expect
capitulation
w/o your claptrap when you're wrong.

I posted Pope said nothing about black Canarians.
Those who thought so were wrong. No claptrap from 'em.

I investigated and found the Cutthroat/Cutthroak
drawings are in fact not Canarians. I once thought
so but proved myself wrong. No claptrap from me.

Algerian postage stamps as authentic historic images?
theLioness' critical pointers made me dig deep. No
claptrap I immediately reversed myself because it's
not about ego, personalities, or ES member cliques.
For me it's about an Authentic Africana not one
subordinate to nationalism be it pro-Africa --ie
Gnawa or aMazigh-- biased ethnocentricism or bad
ole Eurocentricism.


But you? Tres claptrap. Why? You a racist
berber who can never be wrong when countering an,
in your mind, stupid negro akl Gnawa inferior.

---

Can you stop playing the victim and accusing me of being racist ? Anyway I wasn't wrong, I just quickly remembered it.

the same way arabs will say "bilad" and moroccans will say blad/bladi. But if you want extreme accuracy then ok.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Antalas:
[QB] [QUOTE]
Antalas:


Didn't you post your genetic results somewhere here on the forum? Aren't you 50% Anatolian Farmer?


Present-day North Africans are trying to claim that they descend directly from ‘Mechta Afalou’ but there is no evidence of this.


North Africans also like to use the argument that the indigenous Berber component MtDNA U6 and E1b1b belongs to the white-skinned Berbers and Europeans. However, they ignore the fact that other Africans also show a connection to those lineages like the Hausa and Fulani people in Nigeria.







They also like to claim that the indigenous North Africans were white and the Sahara separated them from other Africans, forgetting the Nilotic and Hadza peoples always lived above the Sahara when it was green.

African Hunter-Gatherers even lived as far as Europe

What's more, the Sahara was green at one point, and humans could easily cross over. They also like to put up computer-generated images (like the below) of Mechta Afalou to support their claim. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Mechta Afalou had this skin color in the image below. In fact, the recent 2018 study on the 15,000-year-old ancient remains of the Iberomarusians in North Africa that showed that the ancient E1b1b individuals had the following characteristics;

“Phenotypic analysis was performed on four of the Taforalt individuals with higher genomic coverage. The Taforalt individuals tested did NOT carry either of the derived
SLC24A5
alleles associated with lighter skin color, the derived
OCA2
allele associated with
blue eye
color, or the derived
MCM6
allele associated with
lactase persistence
. However, they were found to carry the ancestral
SLC24A4
allele associated with dark eye color.’’
Haplogroup E is derived from DE
and is an African lineage and the study clearly proves that both the mixed-race combination of
E1b1b and MtDNA U6 was dark-skinned before it was white
.
Yet, white North Africans still think that the ancient North Africans looked like this;



On the contrary, the latest DNA studies show that they would have more or less resembled this image below - minus the blue eyes -Source;
Ancient DNA sheds light on the origin of Europeans




Your reconstructions look Fulani... but the man looks suspicioulsy like Native American actor Graham Greene





 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
There's no such thing as EEF outside of science based speculation.


The early European farmers were not Europeans.
They were migrants debarking from Anatolia.

What so-called EEF is? Haven't the foggiest.


The Fulani element uncovered by ADMIXTURE
earliest detection is Neolithic Levant samples.


full size @ https://imgbox.com/e76106cl
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
I ain't no victim. I whups butt.
If anything I'm a victimizer

@ Antalas

I don't caterwaul like you do:
"Oh poor poor Beur me. Slaves are robbing my and mine's culture and identity. Boohoohoo."

You play victim of imaginary afrocentrics laying in wait for you.


And you have displayed classic melanophobic anti-blk racist behavior since your arrival here as Antalas

very much a mimeograph of Nassbean et al.


Beur please, Arabian Arabs or even any
Arabic speakers east of Maroc laugh at
Moroccans' Arabic as the furthest from Fusha.


No going roun th mulberry bush
Bottomline? You effed up and
that's that, silly Beur face
saver failure.

Stop trying to excuse away your
ignorance of your own language.

You were absolutely dead wrong
but as a racist cannot admit
a black a presumed slave is
your better.

Be a man and admit you didn't
know the plural format of
taMazight until this member of
the hal Pulaaren taught you
forcing you to go look it up.

Better yet go Howard University
and sit at the feet of slaves
who can teach you your taMazight.

No victim here
I kick arse, ... YOURS!
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thereal:
This makes no sense,you're describing a region. Bantu speakers live throughout Africa and aren't necessarily defined by a look as some Bantu speakers can have thin facial features and similar to Ethiopians and Somalis.

west african looking

---

Funny
Thing is anthropology and ethnology
once classed southern dwelling baNtu
speakers as Hamite because of their
facial features. Few baNtu speakers
come anywhere near to approaching
the True Negro stereotype which
most Inner Africans do not.

Yes as a continental confluence we have
nappy hair, broad and sometimes flat noses,
and thick lips but few to the extent of the
colonialists True Negro extreme thought to
be the physical type all Inner Africans
'devolved' from but only due to caucasian
daddies.

Fact is, the True Negro where found, is the
Inner African phenonytpe most representative
of drift away from 'the ancestor'.


Individual yte Euro historians, anthropologists, and
ethnologists each have their own favorite pet Africans
whom they wish/whisk away from being black like the rest.

One even went so far as to label his favorites
the Rain Foresters as "the little white men"



remembered bu never read again by me since
encountered at university many decades ago
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Sorry Beur

AHP Sahra art shows proto-Fulani exactly as
Burkina, Niger, Nigeria, Cameroon, etc Fula
herders look today.

I have nothing to prove to you.
You're a Noob and know no Inner
African history etc yet act as
authoritative due to yte privilege.


So ...

YOU prove otherwise.

If you come back w/yr claptrap
instead of a presentation it
will find itself in the bit
bucket so don't do it then
turn around and moan weep
and cry when live up to my word


Yes we've interacted with the ancestors
of the pre-taMazight speakers ever since
we both inhabited pre-historic SE Algeria
over 6000 years ago. Hence there will be
bidirectional overlaps between hal Pulaaren
and today's iMazighen during all time periods.


Oh the foolish notions outsiders make up
about Inner Africa and Inner African.
They make it up out they butt.

Pulaar has noun classes same as baNtu.
Some ethnologist have seen Fulani and baNtu as one.
Fact is, there are no baNtu people in W Afr
and Cameroon Fulbe mock the local baNtu
speakers and as a rule will not marry any.

To hell with that. Kikuyu say I resemble
a Kamba. I'd've married Kenya baNtu if
their mores matched mine but they will
entertain men other than their husbands.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thereal:
This makes no sense,you're describing a region. Bantu speakers live throughout Africa and aren't necessarily defined by a look as some Bantu speakers can have thin facial features and similar to Ethiopians and Somalis.

west african looking

---

I meant people who currently live in West Africa not specifically "bantus" and as far as I know only fulanis have thin facial features in this area thanks to their north african admixture.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

Antalas:


Didn't you post your genetic results somewhere here on the forum? Aren't you 50% Anatolian Farmer?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: Present-day North Africans are trying to claim that they descend directly from ‘Mechta Afalou’ but there is no evidence of this.

---

quote:

---

Haplogroup U6 is considered a North African autochthonous lineage, with a coalescence age of 42,000 -52,000 BP. U6 is related to the back migration to Africa from Eurasia in Paleolithic times40,41. Haplogroup U6 is relatively frequent in modern day North African populations (e.g. 7.5% in Morocco according to Pennarun et al.42), indicating a maternal continuity in the region since Paleolithic times.

---

quote:

---

IAM.6 shares three of its private mutations with a modern sample from Tunisia42 and two Iberomaurusian samples from Taforalt43, defining the new haplogroup U6a7b2 (Figure S4.4), further confirming a temporal continuity in the North African region. The other derived cluster, U6a7b1 is distributed again in North Africa, Europe and the Canary Islands, whose indigenous population has a North African Berber origin60,61."

---

quote:

---

We show that Early Neolithic Moroccans (~5,000 BCE) are similar to Later Stone Age individuals from the same region and possess an endemic element retained in present-day Maghrebi populations, confirminga long-term genetic continuity in the region.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: North Africans also like to use the argument that the indigenous Berber component MtDNA U6 and E1b1b belongs to the white-skinned Berbers and Europeans. However, they ignore the fact that other Africans also show a connection to those lineages like the Hausa and Fulani people in Nigeria.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: They also like to claim that the indigenous North Africans were white and the Sahara separated them from other Africans, forgetting the Nilotic and Hadza peoples always lived above the Sahara when it was green.

---

There is no evidence of what you're saying. People who lived in North Africa back then were iberomaurusians and capsians but anyway I don't see why you go as far as the green sahara period.

The sahara is literally the biggest genetic barrier in the world :



even a child would see it :

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
What's more, the Sahara was green at one point, and humans could easily cross over. They also like to put up computer-generated images (like the below) of Mechta Afalou to support their claim. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Mechta Afalou had this skin color in the image below. In fact, the recent 2018 study on the 15,000-year-old ancient remains of the Iberomarusians in North Africa that showed that the ancient E1b1b individuals had the following characteristics;

“Phenotypic analysis was performed on four of the Taforalt individuals with higher genomic coverage. The Taforalt individuals tested did NOT carry either of the derived
SLC24A5
alleles associated with lighter skin color, the derived
OCA2
allele associated with
blue eye
color, or the derived
MCM6
allele associated with
lactase persistence
. However, they were found to carry the ancestral
SLC24A4
allele associated with dark eye color.’’
Haplogroup E is derived from DE
and is an African lineage and the study clearly proves that both the mixed-race combination of
E1b1b and MtDNA U6 was dark-skinned before it was white
.
Yet, white North Africans still think that the ancient North Africans looked like this;



On the contrary, the latest DNA studies show that they would have more or less resembled this image below - minus the blue eyes -Source;
Ancient DNA sheds light on the origin of Europeans

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
There's no such thing as EEF outside of science based speculation.


The early European farmers were not Europeans.
They were migrants debarking from Anatolia.

What so-called EEF is? Haven't the foggiest.


The Fulani element uncovered by ADMIXTURE
earliest detection is Neolithic Levant samples.


full size @ https://imgbox.com/e76106cl

---

Early european farmers had WHG ancestry unlike anatolian farmers and this component peaks among modern south europeans especially sardinians.

Here with a proper modern and recognized tool :



the fact that they have both IBM and EEF clearly confirms that they have north african ancestors which is also supported by archaeology btw.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Yeah

Sahra's such a barrier

that people have been living in it,
less lone crossing it, since it reformed
5000 yrs ago.

Talk about copying Eurocentric webmates?
You gotta do better.
 

---

Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 
TO BE DELETED

NO VALUE ADDED TO TOPIC

[ 27. December 2021, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: Tukuler ]
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
You have failed to even begin to successfully demonstrate that Fula genomics is not as old
as the Neolithic Levant.


Again youcome with your superiority attitude
that anything by a Berber(sic) is better than
anything a slave uses no matter if mainstream.
Bottomline the blk must be wrong in your mind.
Proof? You have not admitred the factual validity
of anything a blk here has presented or demonstrated
to you.

And that is why you're on your way to being silenced in this thread but not this forum
(unless you mend your racist attitude).


You cannot discredit ADMIXTURE tool
https://vcru.wisc.edu/simonlab/bioinformatics/programs/admixture/admixture-manual.pdf

And what's this rinky dink tool of yours
producing an output chart I've yet to see
in any published peer review article or
report?


Man you such a big waste of time

I'm getting tired combing thru your
bullish and correcting it.

Please do me a favor and post the
stuff that doesn't measure up or
pass 'objective' scrutiny.

New Member Introductions that has
no moderator and so no need for
moderator to weed out the rubbish
you sift into what little valid
contributions you make.

It's not easy, I won't enjoy it,
but I'm simply deleting it when
you post purely dee bullsh.

Ppl who like it or want to spin
their wheels rehashing old stuff
can follow you to NMI or track
you on DESHRET or EGYPTOLOGY or
HETHERU'S CORNER --because the
membership does like talking to you.

My intent for KEMET is to go beyond
the previous material posted here,
except to expand on some themes, and
begin broaching new paradigms and
material as presented by all but
especially the black voices no
one wants to hear. Yet all must
expect me interloping and raising
the bar, not that any MUST follow suit

BUT wouldn't it be wonderful to have
a forum outspoken or independent minded
blx can post to but not allowed to be
Black uber alles promoters rather to
accept critical analysis when it over
turns cherished beliefs.


Don't say I ain't give you a chance
but you don't play right even after
repeatedly admonished what's not
cricket for KEMET which has a bent
not like the other forums.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
There's no such thing as EEF outside of science based speculation.


The early European farmers were not Europeans.
They were migrants debarking from Anatolia.

What so-called EEF is? Haven't the foggiest.


The Fulani element uncovered by ADMIXTURE
earliest detection is Neolithic Levant samples.


full size @ https://imgbox.com/e76106cl

---

Early european farmers had WHG ancestry unlike anatolian farmers and this component peaks among modern south europeans especially sardinians.

Here with a proper modern and recognized tool :



the fact that they have both IBM and EEF clearly confirms that they have north african ancestors which is also supported by archaeology btw.

---