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posted
There is no such thing as Berber blood. Berber is a culture and a set of languages.
Posts: 288 | From: Asia | Registered: Mar 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Mansamusa: There is no such thing as Berber blood. Berber is a culture and a set of languages.
Yes of course. I was being facetious. 🤷🏾♂️
-------------------- Black Roots. Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
So what does the clear distinct regional genomic ancestry throughout taMazgha count for, regardless if a geographic population member now speaks Arabic, whereas their lineal forbears were talking taMazight?
quote:Originally posted by Mansamusa: There is no such thing as Berber blood. Berber is a culture and a set of languages.
Yes of course. I was being facetious. 🤷🏾♂️
So I think this is the second study showing that N. Africans from the Medieval Era had a genomic profile that is distinct from anything analyzed before. Remember this study, which if I remember correctly was shelved:
"In this study, we present the genomic analysis of two human individuals from a cave site in the area of present-day Morocco which were directly dated to the Medieval period. The samples were processed in a designated ancient DNA lab and the genomic data obtained shows standard patterns of authentic ancient DNA with low levels of contamination. Both individuals – which represent the first ancient genome sequence data from North Africa – do not exhibit particular genetic affinities to modern North Africans or any other present-day population in published genotype data sets despite relatively extensive data has been produced from many areas of Africa. In fact, the most parsimonious way to model them genetically is as two-source admixture between Mediterranean Europeans and Southern Africans. The lack of archaeological context of the two individuals opens up various alternatives to explain their genomic pattern. ... Both individuals could represent a Medieval African population without population continuity to modern-day populations."
The authors gratuitously resort to the Arab slave trade to explain this genomic profile. However, they also suggest they may represent a population with no modern continuity:
" Both individuals could represent a Medieval African population without population continuity to modern-day populations. Alternatively, both Mediterranean Europe and Southern Africa are known source regions in the Arab slave trade, thus they could potentially represent the offspring of slaves of different origin."
Therefore, I wonder if your linked article is wrong in assuming that this DNA represents admixture between N. Africans and contemporary Iberians of the time as opposed to a distinct N. African Aancestry:
"Uniparental lineages indicate North African ancestry, but at the autosomal level he displays a mosaic of North African and European-like ancestries, distinct from any present-day population. Altogether, the genome-wide evidence, stable isotope results and the age of the burial indicate that his ancestry was ultimately a result of admixture between recently arrived Amazigh people (Berbers) and the population inhabiting the Peninsula prior to the Islamic conquest."
Then again, maybe we underestimate the cosmopolitan nature of the N. African-Iberian cultural space created by the Islamic conquest of Southern Europe. Did both groups represent Africans admixing with Europeans after the conquest?
Posts: 288 | From: Asia | Registered: Mar 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: So what does the clear distinct regional genomic ancestry throughout taMazgha count for, regardless if a geographic population member now speaks Arabic, whereas their lineal forbears were talking taMazight?
Ancestry can also be distinct from ethnicity, especially in N. Africa, where Arab invasions (i.e., Banu Hillal and after) made such a mess of the original cultures that inhabited that region.
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in black bodies ?? The article talks about this andalusian muslim being a mix between north african and iberian ancestry. He plot close to Morocco_LN who clusters between Iberia and modern north africa.
Nothing black here.
Posts: 58 | From: Miami | Registered: Aug 2021
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Can you please elaborate on your resolution from this study. I'm honestly not following what your hinting at by the thread title.
I might've have missed the phenotypic data related to his skin color.
The abstract is also a bit misleading. This individual isn't that Autosomally unique (as it relates to NA mixed Southern Europeans.) We've already seen quite a few individuals with similar profiles.
I also love this line XD
quote:The first scenario would imply that pre-Islamic populations in North Africa would be genetically similar to UE2298/MS060 (or possibly to other contemporary individuals found in Spain6). The nearest temporal proxy available are the Guanches (from the seventh–eleventh centuries CE), who originated in the Maghreb but have been isolated in the Canary Islands since at least the early Iron Age. D-statistics, however, suggest that UE2298/MS060 is genetically closer to Morocco_LN than to the Guanches (Supplementary Table S7).
Meanwhile: All of the stats related to Kehf-El_baroud were insignificant lmao. Useful though, cause it indirectly further highlights the (un)importance of the late neolithic KEB individuals historically.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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in black bodies ?? The article talks about this andalusian muslim being a mix between north african and iberian ancestry. He plot close to Morocco_LN who clusters between Iberia and modern north africa.
Nothing black here.
I think a previous study pointed out the morphology of the person in question had SSA characteristics.
Posts: 288 | From: Asia | Registered: Mar 2016
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in black bodies ?? The article talks about this andalusian muslim being a mix between north african and iberian ancestry. He plot close to Morocco_LN who clusters between Iberia and modern north africa.
Nothing black here.
I think a previous study pointed out the morphology of the person in question had SSA characteristics.
This is what the paper says :
"The subsequent anthropological analysis suggested some African morphological features and a link was postulated to the Berber-speaking populations that settled in the region in medieval times26,27."
The paper they're referring to isn't even about the same individual and doesn't mention ssa features. This is the only relevant information from their paper (translated) :
"A priori, from the data obtained from this skeleton, we have not found significant differences with the dental size of contemporary populations."
The second paper talks about this individual being physically caucasoid mediterranean but similar to modern day berbers (which implies some negroid influences) :
"is a young adult, between 20 and 25 years old, male, with a height between 184-190cm. He belongs to the Caucasian group, Mediterranean subgroup and, within this, gracile Mediterranean with a certain Negroid component. Historically it could be a Berber individual."
Barrachina, A. La necròpolis islàmica de la plaça de l’Almudín, Sogorb (Alt Palància). Estudi antropològic i cronològic.
you can find the pdf on google scholar. He's clearly not a mix of SSA+iberian so there is no reason to believe he was black or half black except maybe a few ssa % from his north african side. He's even more northern shifted than modern north africans let alone being black.
Posts: 58 | From: Miami | Registered: Aug 2021
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in black bodies ?? The article talks about this andalusian muslim being a mix between north african and iberian ancestry. He plot close to Morocco_LN who clusters between Iberia and modern north africa.
Nothing black here.
I think a previous study pointed out the morphology of the person in question had SSA characteristics.
This is what the paper says :
"The subsequent anthropological analysis suggested some African morphological features and a link was postulated to the Berber-speaking populations that settled in the region in medieval times26,27."
The paper they're referring to isn't even about the same individual and doesn't mention ssa features. This is the only relevant information from their paper (translated) :
"A priori, from the data obtained from this skeleton, we have not found significant differences with the dental size of contemporary populations."
The second paper talks about this individual being physically caucasoid mediterranean but similar to modern day berbers (which implies some negroid influences) :
"is a young adult, between 20 and 25 years old, male, with a height between 184-190cm. He belongs to the Caucasian group, Mediterranean subgroup and, within this, gracile Mediterranean with a certain Negroid component. Historically it could be a Berber individual."
Barrachina, A. La necròpolis islàmica de la plaça de l’Almudín, Sogorb (Alt Palància). Estudi antropològic i cronològic.
you can find the pdf on google scholar. He's clearly not a mix of SSA+iberian so there is no reason to believe he was black or half black except maybe a few ssa % from his north african side. He's even more northern shifted than modern north africans let alone being black.
. . . is a young adult, between 20 and 25 years old, male, with a height between 184-190 cm. He belongs to the Caucasian group, Mediterranean subgroup and, within this, gracile Mediterranean with a certain Negroid component.
I guess Negroid component means he has SSA affinity. The Mediterranean Caucasoid stuff sounds like race science, which is not science at all.
Posts: 288 | From: Asia | Registered: Mar 2016
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in black bodies ?? The article talks about this andalusian muslim being a mix between north african and iberian ancestry. He plot close to Morocco_LN who clusters between Iberia and modern north africa.
Nothing black here.
I think a previous study pointed out the morphology of the person in question had SSA characteristics.
I guess Negroid component means he has SSA affinity. The Mediterranean Caucasoid stuff sounds like race science, which is not science at all.
Such categories are still used in forensic anthropology (you should start reading more papers on the subject) also I don't understand why you have a problem with this but not with the "negroid" part ?
And his haplogroups/autosomal show no particular ssa affinity.
Posts: 58 | From: Miami | Registered: Aug 2021
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in black bodies ?? The article talks about this andalusian muslim being a mix between north african and iberian ancestry. He plot close to Morocco_LN who clusters between Iberia and modern north africa.
Nothing black here.
I think a previous study pointed out the morphology of the person in question had SSA characteristics.
I guess Negroid component means he has SSA affinity. The Mediterranean Caucasoid stuff sounds like race science, which is not science at all.
Such categories are still used in forensic anthropology (you should start reading more papers on the subject) also I don't understand why you have a problem with this but not with the "negroid" part ?
And his haplogroups/autosomal show no particular ssa affinity.
Negroid is not my choice of words. I said his morphology showed SSA affinity. E1b1b1b1 and U6a are well-distributed in S. West Africa, including SSA.
Posts: 288 | From: Asia | Registered: Mar 2016
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in black bodies ?? The article talks about this andalusian muslim being a mix between north african and iberian ancestry. He plot close to Morocco_LN who clusters between Iberia and modern north africa.
Nothing black here.
I think a previous study pointed out the morphology of the person in question had SSA characteristics.
I guess Negroid component means he has SSA affinity. The Mediterranean Caucasoid stuff sounds like race science, which is not science at all.
Such categories are still used in forensic anthropology (you should start reading more papers on the subject) also I don't understand why you have a problem with this but not with the "negroid" part ?
And his haplogroups/autosomal show no particular ssa affinity.
Negroid is not my choice of words. I said his morphology showed SSA affinity. E1b1b1b1 and U6a are well-distributed in S. West Africa, including SSA.
You had a problem with the fact they recognized gracile mediterranean features but you don't have that kind of problem when they also found some negroid influences. It seems "race science" is only okay when it fits your narrative.
E-M81 and U6a are typically north african lineages and mostly found among modern north africans certainly not SSA populations. What's next ? "He's under r1b but that doesn't mean it's from western europe since there are r1b lineages in north africa..."
There is really nothing to discuss here, he was a mix north african - Iberian which was expected. No need to twist anything.
Posts: 58 | From: Miami | Registered: Aug 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Can you please elaborate on your resolution from this study. I'm honestly not following what your hinting at by the thread title.
I might've have missed the phenotypic data related to his skin color.
I have to agree with Elmaestro here. By the 11th century AD, North Africa probably would have been home to a diversity of phenotypes. There were doubtless some Black people still living in the region (some of them being migrants from SSA and others possibly being Iberomaurisian-like aboriginals), but there would have been lighter-skinned people of Iberian, Phoenician, Roman, etc. descent also hanging around the area. So I would hesitate to conclude that the individual being studied would have necessarily looked "Black" without phenotypic analyses coming out.
in black bodies ?? The article talks about this andalusian muslim being a mix between north african and iberian ancestry. He plot close to Morocco_LN who clusters between Iberia and modern north africa.
Nothing black here.
I think a previous study pointed out the morphology of the person in question had SSA characteristics.
I guess Negroid component means he has SSA affinity. The Mediterranean Caucasoid stuff sounds like race science, which is not science at all.
Such categories are still used in forensic anthropology (you should start reading more papers on the subject) also I don't understand why you have a problem with this but not with the "negroid" part ?
And his haplogroups/autosomal show no particular ssa affinity.
Negroid is not my choice of words. I said his morphology showed SSA affinity. E1b1b1b1 and U6a are well-distributed in S. West Africa, including SSA.
You had a problem with the fact they recognized gracile mediterranean features but you don't have that kind of problem when they also found some negroid influences. It seems "race science" is only okay when it fits your narrative.
We know what Negroid means. It is a term used in modern forensics. Gracile Mediterranean, on the other hand, can be used to describe a wide range of populations from N. Africa, East Africa, etc. And you also know that words like caucasoid have even been used to describe "Black" Africans who do not meet the stereotypical definition of SSA.
E-M81 and U6a are typically north african lineages and mostly found among modern north africans certainly not SSA populations. What's next ? "He's under r1b but that doesn't mean it's from western europe since there are r1b lineages in north africa..." [/QUOTE]
I never claimed that these lineages are not from N. Africa. They most likely are. But E-M81 is like about 2000-3000 years old and descended from E1b1b, a common SSA Y haplogroup. Hence, the "Negroid component."
Posts: 288 | From: Asia | Registered: Mar 2016
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posted
We know what Negroid means. It is a term used in modern forensics. Gracile Mediterranean, on the other hand, can be used to describe a wide range of populations from N. Africa, East Africa, etc. And you also know that words like caucasoid have even been used to describe "Black" Africans who do not meet the stereotypical definition of SSA. . .... I never claimed that these lineages are not from N. Africa. They most likely are. But E-M81 is like about 2000-3000 years old and descended from E1b1b, a common SSA Y haplogroup. Hence, the "Negroid component."
Posts: 288 | From: Asia | Registered: Mar 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Can you please elaborate on your resolution from this study. I'm honestly not following what your hinting at by the thread title.
I might've have missed the phenotypic data related to his skin color.
I have to agree with Elmaestro here. By the 11th century AD, North Africa probably would have been home to a diversity of phenotypes. There were doubtless some Black people still living in the region (some of them being migrants from SSA and others possibly being Iberomaurisian-like aboriginals), but there would have been lighter-skinned people of Iberian, Phoenician, Roman, etc. descent also hanging around the area. So I would hesitate to conclude that the individual being studied would have necessarily looked "Black" without phenotypic analyses coming out.
We know what Negroid means. It is a term used in modern forensics. Gracile Mediterranean, on the other hand, can be used to describe a wide range of populations from N. Africa, East Africa, etc. And you also know that words like caucasoid have even been used to describe "Black" Africans who do not meet the stereotypical definition of SSA.
I never claimed that these lineages are not from N. Africa. They most likely are. But E-M81 is like about 2000-3000 years old and descended from E1b1b, a common SSA Y haplogroup. Hence, the "Negroid component."
Caucasoid/caucasian is also a term used in modern forensics. "Gracile" is simply the opposite of robust and Mediterranean is probably some type of dolichocephalic type commonly found in the med area. You really think such paper will start bringing these old taxonomic stuff ? It's simply modern forensics.
And yes "caucasoid" has also been used with People from the Horn of Africa which makes sense since they do have consistent amount of west eurasian ancestry (mostly natufian-like type of admixture) and they clearly don't look similar to west, central or south africans.
There shouldn't even be a discussion about E-M81, it's a purely north african lineage which the oldest clades were already found among IAM :
If you want to go into the "haplogroup E is SSA" then you would have to go back to the Paleolithic at least lol. UP north africans themselves were already very different compared to modern SSAs but you want us to believe that a medieval andalusian had a black north african parent ? Come on be serious
Posts: 58 | From: Miami | Registered: Aug 2021
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posted
"If you want to go into the "haplogroup E is SSA" then you would have to go back to the Paleolithic at least lol. UP north africans themselves were already very different compared to modern SSAs but you want us to believe that a medieval andalusian had a black north african parent ? Come on be serious"
Modern SSAs did not exist during the Paeleolithic. So what's your point? I said the ancient individual in question had SSA affinity. Who said that he had a Black, African parent?
ANA is probably the link between N. Africans and SSAs, and is likely responsible for spreading ancestry into both of these groups. So it's not a matter of N. Africans getting ancestry from "Black" Africans.
Posts: 288 | From: Asia | Registered: Mar 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Mansamusa: "If you want to go into the "haplogroup E is SSA" then you would have to go back to the Paleolithic at least lol. UP north africans themselves were already very different compared to modern SSAs but you want us to believe that a medieval andalusian had a black north african parent ? Come on be serious"
Modern SSAs did not exist during the Paeleolithic. So what's your point? I said the ancient individual in question had SSA affinity. Who said that he had a Black, African parent?
ANA is probably the link between N. Africans and SSAs, and is likely responsible for spreading ancestry into both of these groups. So it's not a matter of N. Africans getting ancestry from "Black" Africans.
So I was right it doesn't mean he was black, you find such physical ssa influences on most berbers and ANA is an extremely old population there is no reason to brought them here. Craniometrically, ANA (if you consider them to be aterians) show strong similarities with Iberomaurusian skulls but in a more archaic way.
Posts: 58 | From: Miami | Registered: Aug 2021
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posted
The DNA from one body in ancient Spain does not tell us anything about the overall composition of the Islamic armies. It is also nonsense to try and extrapolate from this into broad claims about North Africa. Most ancient North Africans weren't mixed with Spanish.
Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The DNA from one body in ancient Spain does not tell us anything about the overall composition of the Islamic armies. It is also nonsense to try and extrapolate from this into broad claims about North Africa. Most ancient North Africans weren't mixed with Spanish.
There was another study about these andalusian moors and it seems they were like him a mix North african-iberian :
quote:In the southeast, we recovered genomic data from 45 individuals dated between the 3rd and 16th centuries CE. All analyzed individuals fell outside the genetic variation of preceding Iberian Iron Age populations (Fig. 1, C and D, and fig. S3) and harbored ancestry from both Southern European and North African populations (Fig. 2D), as well as additional Levantine-related ancestry that could potentially reflect ancestry from Jewish groups (21). These results demonstrate that by the Roman period, southern Iberia had experienced a major influx of North African ancestry, probably related to the well-known mobility patterns during the Roman Empire (22) or to the earlier Phoenician-Punic presence (23); the latter is also supported by the observation of the Phoenician-associated Y-chromosome J2 (24). Gene flow from North Africa continued into the Muslim period, as is clear from Muslim burials with elevated North African and sub-Saharan African ancestry (Fig. 2D, fig. S4, and table S22) and from uniparental markers typical of North Africa not present among pre-Islamic individuals (Fig. 2D and fig. S11). Present-day populations from southern Iberia harbor less North African ancestry (25) than the ancient Muslim burials, plausibly reflecting expulsion of moriscos (former Muslims converted to Christianity) and repopulation from the north, as supported by historical sources and genetic analysis of present-day groups (25). The impact of Muslim rule is also evident in northeast Iberia in seven individuals from Sant Julià de Ramis from the 8th to 12th centuries CE who, unlike previous ancient individuals from the same region, show North African–related ancestry (Fig. 2C and table S19) and a complete overlap in PCA with present-day Iberians (Fig. 1D).
Also whether ancient or modern north africans none have spanish ancestry except the morisco minority.
Posts: 58 | From: Miami | Registered: Aug 2021
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I'm confused. What what does the paper have to do with the topic??
By the way, the original phrase was "Berber blood in Negro bodies" as expressed by old time anthropologist Lloyd Cabot Briggs in his description of the Teda people of the Sahara.
A Review of the Physical Anthropology of the Sahara and Its Prehistoric Implications L. Cabot Briggs Man, Vol. 57, Feb., 1957 (Feb., 1957), pp. 20 The Teda The essentially nomadic and semi-nomadic pastoral bandit Teda have often been supposed to represent the oldest surviving human strain in the Sahara. As far as their outward appearance goes, both metrically and morphologically, they look like half-Hamites, such as the Shilluk and the Dinka, and they speak Sudanic dialects. But their ABO blood-group distributions follow a typically Berber pattern, high in O and very low in B, whereas the Sudanese half-Hamites, as well as Negroes in general , all show high or very high B percentages. Thus the Teda appear to have Berber blood in Negro bodies...
In the same work Briggs also talks about the Moors who display the converse characteristics-- "Negro blood in Berber Bodies"
All of this shows the fallacy in racializing blood-groupings. Such was discussed before, and I even brought it up when discussing the Teda's genetic ties to the Nubians here, the latter also show the same high frequency of type O, so-called "Berber blood".
By the way, below is a good source on blood group distributions in global populations:
These patterns of ABO, Rh, and Diego blood type distributions are not similar to those for skin color or other so-called "racial" traits. The implication is that the specific causes responsible for the distribution of human blood types have been different than those for other traits that have been commonly employed to categorize people into "races." Since it would be possible to divide up humanity into radically different groupings using blood typing instead of other genetically inherited traits such as skin color, we have more conclusive evidence that the commonly used typological model for understanding human variation is scientifically unsound.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by HotepBoy: The second paper talks about this individual being physically caucasoid mediterranean but similar to modern day berbers (which implies some negroid influences) :
"is a young adult, between 20 and 25 years old, male, with a height between 184-190cm. He belongs to the Caucasian group, Mediterranean subgroup and, within this, gracile Mediterranean with a certain Negroid component. Historically it could be a Berber individual."
Barrachina, A. La necròpolis islàmica de la plaça de l’Almudín, Sogorb (Alt Palància). Estudi antropològic i cronològic.
you can find the pdf on google scholar. He's clearly not a mix of SSA+iberian so there is no reason to believe he was black or half black except maybe a few ssa % from his north african side. He's even more northern shifted than modern north africans let alone being black.
Apparently you are unaware of the fact that historically in the field of physical anthropology the description of "gracile Mediterranean" especially one with "negroid component" as defined by Carleton Coon himself meant something like this fellow!
The man in the above photos was a Shluh Berber photographed by Coon himself to serve as an example of his "small gracile Mediterranean type". It's obvious to anyone with eyes that he's clearly a black man but according to Coon and his ilk black does not mean "negro". So you can play the same racial semantics game as Coon and the other old-time racist anthropologists. The Shluh Berber man and other North Africans like Nubians and even the ancient Egyptians whose murals and painted portraits show mahogany complexions can be as "caucasian" as you want in your mind.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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The second paper talks about this individual being physically caucasoid mediterranean but similar to modern day berbers (which implies some negroid influences) :
"is a young adult, between 20 and 25 years old, male, with a height between 184-190cm. He belongs to the Caucasian group, Mediterranean subgroup and, within this, gracile Mediterranean with a certain Negroid component. Historically it could be a Berber individual."
Barrachina, A. La necròpolis islàmica de la plaça de l’Almudín, Sogorb (Alt Palància). Estudi antropològic i cronològic.
you can find the pdf on google scholar. He's clearly not a mix of SSA+iberian so there is no reason to believe he was black or half black except maybe a few ssa % from his north african side. He's even more northern shifted than modern north africans let alone being black.
Apparently you are unaware of the fact that historically in the field of physical anthropology the description of "gracile Mediterranean" especially one with "negroid component" as defined by Carleton Coon himself meant something like this fellow!
The man in the above photos was a Shluh Berber photographed by Coon himself to serve as an example of his "small gracile Mediterranean type". It's clear to anyone with eyes that he's clearly a black man but according to Coon and his ilk black does not mean "negro". So you can play the same racial semantics game as Coon and the other old-time racist anthropologists. The Shluh Berber man and other North Africans like Nubians and even the ancient Egyptians whose murals and painted portraits show mahogany complexions can be as "caucasian" as you want in your mind.
This Berber man isn't a good example of Gracile Med. However, he doesn't look clearly black either. If anything, he's rather ambiguous looking, in my opinion.
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posted
He doesn't look ambigous. Byron Saxton is a Black American former wwe wrestler. Byron feature set isn't a like-for-like comparison to the Berber man but they don't look to dissimilar.
posted
^ Thereal, don't bother wasting your time. Both mightywolf and Hotepboy are in denial and subscribe to the "true negro" fallacy where 'black' for them means "true negro" even though 'black' a reference to very dark skin color. A Nubian as dark as ebony is not 'black' to these people.
quote:Originally posted by mightywolf: This Berber man isn't a good example of Gracile Med. However, he doesn't look clearly black either. If anything, he's rather ambiguous looking, in my opinion.
I'm not sure if Coon himself came up with the concept of "gracile Mediterranean" but go and read his Races of Man where he clearly labels that Shluh Berber man a such!
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Thereal, don't bother wasting your time. Both mightywolf and Hotepboy are in denial and subscribe to the "true negro" fallacy where 'black' for them means "true negro" even though 'black' a reference to very dark skin color. A Nubian as dark as ebony is not 'black' to these people.
To be honest, even when referencing pigmentation alone, "black" is imprecise, especially since very few if any people on earth are literally black in color. To some people, only those with the darkest skin (or Type VI on the Fitzpatrick scale) would qualify as black-skinned, but then you have people with Type V or even IV skin being called "black" as well. Where would you draw the line?
That said, the Berber individual in that old photo is probably either Type VI or V.
posted
Please don't allow the trolls to take this thread off the rails! This is not about skin complexions and who is or isn't black. It is about blood types in different indigenous populations of Africa.
ABO blood groups and hemoglobin variants among Nubians, Egypt, U.A.R.: Three hundred and fifty‐six Nubians of Upper Egypt were tested for hemoglobin variants and ABO blood groups. No hemoglobin variants were detected. ABO allele frequencies for the Konouz are: A 19.31, B 11.08, O 69.59; for the Arabs — A 22.02, B 9.64, O 68.33; and for the Fedikyaee—A 24.46, B 9.54, O 65.98
Nubians like their Teda kinsmen also represent 'Berber blood in black bodies' if one even considers Nubians to be black that is. LOLPosts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Thereal, don't bother wasting your time. Both mightywolf and Hotepboy are in denial and subscribe to the "true negro" fallacy where 'black' for them means "true negro" even though 'black' a reference to very dark skin color. A Nubian as dark as ebony is not 'black' to these people.
quote:Originally posted by mightywolf: This Berber man isn't a good example of Gracile Med. However, he doesn't look clearly black either. If anything, he's rather ambiguous looking, in my opinion.
I'm not sure if Coon himself came up with the concept of "gracile Mediterranean" but go and read his Races of Man where he clearly labels that Shluh Berber man a such!
Don't take my disagreement with you as an insult. We can agree to disagree and chill. However, let's not pretend as if humanity is divided in "black" and "white" only, as if there are no nuances, intermediate populations, mixed folks, etc. Besides, I spontaneously asked some friends what this Berber guy looks to them and none of them claimed that he looks CLEARLY BLACK. In fact, one person said, that he looks as if he has some black in him, but somehow he reminds him of a white person who was too long in the sun. Another one said that he doesn't look black at all. So, my claim that this guy looks ambiguous isn't far-fetched. No offense, your standard of "blackness" isn't an objective standard, but your subjective perception. And this has nothing to do with me subscribing to the "true negro" narrative. It's rather that I take into account that admixed black folks usually don't look exactly like the unmixed counterparts. Hence, labeling anyone as black who doesn't exhibit lily-white skin or doesn't look like a European, is pseudo. For instance, Stephen Curry may look clearly black to you, but in Africa, they would consider him more white than black. Bob Marley talked about his struggle to fit in since the Jamaicans didn't consider him as a black man. So, you can't dismiss what I wrote about this Berber just because to you, he looks black- whatever this means.
Furthermore, many complained about King Tut looking white in his reconstruction, but to me, he didn't look white or European but like a regular North African.
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quote:Originally posted by Thereal: He doesn't look ambigous. Byron Saxton is a Black American former wwe wrestler. Byron feature set isn't a like-for-like comparison to the Berber man but they don't look to dissimilar.
The thing is, Coon himself saw this Berber man in real, we see him only in an old black and white pic with a certain facial expression. For instance, Coon showed this Southern Euro man as an example for a gracile Med
and he classified this Arab/Yemenite individual as central Mediterranean.
They both don't really resemble this Berber man here. Besides, this former www wrestler looks like some folks who are biracial. You have to consider, that many black Americans can be very mixed even when both parents are Afro-Americans. No offense, I'm just stating my personal opinion.Posts: 102 | From: private | Registered: Jul 2021
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THIS IS ONE OF TWO OFFENSES OF LOW QUALITY THREAD POSTING. PLEASE PROVIDE MORE RESOLUTION OR FOCUS TO YOUR THREAD TOPICS ALONG WITH SUFFICIENT DATA OR/AND INTELLECTUAL TALKING POINTS WHEN POSTING IN THE EGYPTOLOGY SECTION.
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: He doesn't look ambigous. Byron Saxton is a Black American former wwe wrestler. Byron feature set isn't a like-for-like comparison to the Berber man but they don't look to dissimilar.
The thing is, Coon himself saw this Berber man in real, we see him only in an old black and white pic with a certain facial expression. For instance, Coon showed this Southern Euro man as an example for a gracile Med
and he classified this Arab/Yemenite individual as central Mediterranean.
They both don't really resemble this Berber man here. Besides, this former www wrestler looks like some folks who are biracial. You have to consider, that many black Americans can be very mixed even when both parents are Afro-Americans. No offense, I'm just stating my personal opinion.
Indeed you will find Berbers like these guys, however you will also find Berbers who do not look like those guys, but more like the men posted below. Can you imagine a man like Coon linking up with them or rather with these to men in that picture. Coon stayed with a Berber family.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
Member # 23365
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"The term negro is confined to slave Africans, (the ancient Berbers) and their descendants. It does not embrace the free inhabitants of Africa, such as the Egyptians, Moors, or the negro Asiatics, such as the Lascars."
"The Negro Law of South Carolina" by John Belton O'Neall, page 5 (1848) J.G. Bowman
posted
@Tazarah a more easy to read version, in Google book reader:
"Sec. 4. The term negro is confined to slave Africans, (the ancient Berbers) and their descendants. It does not embrace the free inhabitants of Africa, such as the Egyptians, Moors, or the negro Asiatics, such as the Lascars."
The negro law of South Carolina By South Carolina. State Agricultural Society, State Agricultural Society of South Carolina (1839- ) published in 1848
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Cool but that's just one source saying so amid 100s that say otherwise.
Yes negro means enslaved African. When some Euros called some black merchants negroes the blacks replied we are not negroes but can get you some.
In Africa there's a dichotomy aMazight/Gnawa. In Senegal for instance iMazighen are 'white', as they are in all the old records (Leo's English translator changed white to tawny). However iMazighen are not Red Ears, the term reserved for Euro ytes.
Many places in AfricArabia reserve red for the Iranians and Europeans and white for Imazighen & Arabs. Then red can also refer to a person with one Gnawa and one aMazigh parent. A lot depends on circumstances.
Iirc, the first sale of West Africa blacks to Europeans was when Euros captured some Zenaga iMazighen who were ransomed in exchange for Gnawa.
And I'll always recommend Richard B Moore (1960) The Name "Negro": it's origin and evil use New York: Argentina Press [ http://www.blackclassicbooks.com/9780933121355/ and Google Books previews a couple chapters]
Sixty years ago Caribbes and AfrAms (including John Henrik Clarke) set up the Committee To Present The Truth About The Name "Negro" -- publishing, The Name Negro, It's Origin and Evil Use.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Can't find where I first learned 'Berbers' exchanged 'blacks' to free themselves from Portuguese interlopers. This recounting will have to do until I find the record.
quote:
Among other Portuguese rulers, Henry the Navigator, the organiser of Portuguese expeditions to Africa, sanctioned the importation of Africans, ostensibly to convert them to Christianity.
Gonçalves [ ] was sent by Henry the Navigator to explore and hunt the Mediterranean monk seals along the West African coast.
By this time, Tristão had arrived at the same place, and the two joined together for another slave purchasing expedition.
Gonçalves, by chance, captured a solitary young camel-driver; the first native encountered by the Portuguese since the expeditions began in the 1420s. Tristão, who had one of King Henry’s Moorish (black) servants on board, to act as an interpreter, is said to have interrogated the captive camel-driver whose information led them to a small Berber fishing camp nearby.
Some six decades before Columbus set out for the new world, Pope Eugene IV condemned the enslavement of black natives from the Canary Islands. This 1435 papal command demanded the European slave-masters to release them within 15 days or face the weight of excommunication from the Church.
1402 Juan de Bethencourt became the first European to settle in the Canary Islands and made slaves of several natives heralding the beginning of the black slave trade. At this time slavery had been practically eliminated in Europe, thanks to the influence of the Church. The Holy Roman Church later would not only condone and support slavery even of those baptized into the Roman Catholic Church but also would hold their own slaves. Europe, led by Spain, would begin over four centuries of slave trading that included some twenty million Africans alone, of which half died in transit. Jewish children deported from Portugal during the Inquisition settle Sao Tome e Principe, two islands 320 kilometers west of Gabon. It then became a transit point for the slave trade. Pope John Paul II (1978 - ) in 1992 deplored the Roman Catholic Church's condoning of that sad offense to human dignity.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
DJ (but re-up on yr 1st trade facts)
Ish. Where them Canarian mummy images at?
I'm'a xfer autochthonous Canary Is infos here like Gaunches are one set of abo Canarians from earlier threads.
Tazarah. Yes, judging from culture and genetics iMazighen were among 'cargo' in Tri-angular Trade holds.
posted
3 days have passed since I asked you to remove just one judgemental statement.
In your superiority you decide not to obey a black no matter if moderator. Consequently as a man of my word I'm deleting your post. When a guest comes into your home and disses it and you you put fire up under they azz
[ 11. December 2021, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: Tukuler ]
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
Member # 23365
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: "The term negro is confined to slave Africans, (the ancient Berbers) and their descendants. It does not embrace the free inhabitants of Africa, such as the Egyptians, Moors, or the negro Asiatics, such as the Lascars."
"The Negro Law of South Carolina" by John Belton O'Neall, page 5 (1848) J.G. Bowman
^^^ this source is obviously speaking about the term negro in a 19th century context (it was published in 1848) so to claim usage of the word "negro" here is vague is pure dishonesty. It's clearly identifying different groups of black people around the world as negroes, and not only that; it proves that during this time period, these groups of people (Berbers, for example) were undoubtedly known to be negro or so-called black people, and were largely accepted as such. Posts: 2493 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2021
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
Member # 23365
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: DJ (but re-up on yr 1st trade facts)
Ish. Where them Canarian mummy images at?
I'm'a xfer autochthonous Canary Is infos here like Gaunches are one set of abo Canarians from earlier threads.
Tazarah. Yes, judging from culture and genetics iMazighen were among 'cargo' in Tri-angular Trade holds.
If true, then that would have to mean they were "black", or "negroes"
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: These are not Guanches but people from the island of Bioko (Fernando Po) which is near equatorial guinea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioko
Nope! The indigenous people of Bioko are the Bantu speaking Bube people who look like this:
You're obviously unaware of the fact that Bioko (Fernando Po) Island was used as a penal colony since the Spanish Empire and peoples from all over that empire were sent there including Canarians hence why the people in the picture were described as 'Guanche Race'
Here's a book on Canarians in the U.S.
I've seen all those depictions of white Guanches. They were posted many times in this forum before but it's funny how the depictions of all the other Canarians who are black are almost never shown.
I also find it funny that you never addressed these references:
Pope Eugene IV Against the Enslaving of Black Natives from the Canary Islands January 13, 1435
Some six decades before Columbus set out for the new world, Pope Eugene IV condemned the enslavement of black natives from the Canary Islands. This 1435 papal command demanded the European slave-masters to release them within 15 days or face the weight of excommunication from the Church.
1402 Juan de Bethencourt became the first European to settle in the Canary Islands and made slaves of several natives heralding the beginning of the black slave trade. At this time slavery had been practically eliminated in Europe, thanks to the influence of the Church. The Holy Roman Church later would not only condone and support slavery even of those baptized into the Roman Catholic Church but also would hold their own slaves. Europe, led by Spain, would begin over four centuries of slave trading that included some twenty million Africans alone, of which half died in transit. Jewish children deported from Portugal during the Inquisition settle Sao Tome e Principe, two islands 320 kilometers west of Gabon. It then became a transit point for the slave trade. Pope John Paul II (1978 - ) in 1992 deplored the Roman Catholic Church's condoning of that sad offense to human dignity.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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So, if the aboriginal Canary Islanders varied in skin tone, with some being dark enough to be called "Black" and others like the Guanches being lighter-skinned, what do you think would have accounted for this variation? Would the Guanches represent (or be admixed with) a later migration to those islands?
By the way...
If this is what Guanches looked like, they don't seem to me like they'd stand out as unusual on the streets of modern Casablanca or Tripoli. So in a sense, Antalas isn't wrong about them looking like some Arabized North Africans today, even if they didn't represent all aboriginal people on the Canary Islands.
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DJ (but re-up on yr 1st trade facts)
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